Browse content similar to 08/06/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Order! Urgent question,. Th`nk you, Mr Speaker. To ask the Chancellor of | :00:11. | :00:22. | |
the Duchy of Lancaster if hd will make a statement on the reghstration | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
website just before the deadline for voter registration for the DU | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
referendum. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am grateful for the opportunity to | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
be able to set out the Government's position. Whatever your view on the | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
question on the ballot paper on the 23rd of June, or anybody else's the | :00:44. | :00:50. | |
EU referendum is a very important moment in our democracy. Ovdr the | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
past three months before and a half million people have applied to | :00:54. | :01:02. | |
register to vote. -- 4.5 million. They have been successfully handled | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
by the system, and in the l`st week alone over 1 million people have | :01:06. | :01:12. | |
applied. Yesterday, 525,000 people successfully completed their | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
application. This is a record. And at its peak yesterday, the website | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
was handling three times thd volume of applications compared to the | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
previous record peak which was just before the General Election last | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
year. My strong view, and the view of the Government, is that `nyone | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
eligible should be able to register to vote in the EU referendul. But, | :01:38. | :01:44. | |
unfortunately, due to this unprecedented demands, they were | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
problems with the website from 10:15pm last night. To give the | :01:48. | :01:54. | |
house a sense of the scale of the demands, the peak before thd 20 5 | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
General Election was 74,000 applications per hour, last night to | :02:00. | :02:07. | |
the system protest 214,000 per hour at its peak before it crashdd. Many | :02:08. | :02:14. | |
who apply to register after 10: 5pm were successful, but many wdre not. | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
And be problems with the website were then resolved around the | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
deadline at midnight. We ard urgently looking at all opthons and | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
talking to the electoral colmission about how we can extend the deadline | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
for applying to register to vote in the EU referendum. The webshte is | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
now open and working, and wd strongly encourage people to | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
register to vote online. Anxone who has already registered does not need | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
to submit a fresh application. We are also offering extra resources to | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
electoral registration officers to cover any additional administrative | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
costs. Mr Speaker, a huge alount of work has gone into encouraghng | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
people to register to vote hn a timely fashion. We began thd drive | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
ahead of the May elections, from the middle of April we began in earnest | :03:07. | :03:13. | |
you wrote registration, govdrnment departments, local authorithes have | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
all helped boost voter registration. I want to pay tribute to thd work of | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
all of them, everyone from Hdris Elba to Emma Watson and all others | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
who have been involved. We `re targeting and are registered groups | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
and we have seen high numbers registering throughout the last few | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
weeks. It is in all our intdrests to ensure that as many people `s | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
possible are able to vote in one of the most important moments hn our | :03:40. | :03:41. | |
democracy in a generation. Last night, tens of thousands of | :03:42. | :03:51. | |
people trying to exercise their democratic right to register to vote | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
were told the computer says no. I welcome the announcement today that | :03:57. | :03:58. | |
people should continue to rdgister to vote and that their applhcations | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
will be valid. However, we `re no clearer as to how the government | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
plans to make this happen and what the new deadline for registration | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
is. I want to offer the govdrnment Labour's complete support across | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
both houses to do whatever ht takes to get any necessary legisl`tion | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
through. This should be dond today. What legislative options ard open to | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
the government and is one of the options being considered a statutory | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
instrument which could be officially scrutinised today? What is the new | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
deadline to register to votd? People need complete clarity on how long | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
they now have left and it ndeds to be well advertised. Last night's | :04:39. | :04:45. | |
chaos was totally unacceptable. What stress testing was not done on the | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
website in advance and what provisions were made for thd | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
predictable rise in traffic? What will be done about postal votes | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
given the deadline is 5pm today but is only available to those on the | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
register? Can he confirmed this will also be extended? You would never | :05:04. | :05:06. | |
expect to be turned away from a puzzling station despite behng in | :05:07. | :05:13. | |
the queue. -- polling stations. We need clear answers on how they can | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
still make their voices heard. Thank you very much. First of all, I am | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
grateful for her clear and unambiguous support from thd Labour | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
benches, for action if necessary legislative league, to put this | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
right. And the support in both houses will be an important issue if | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
we come to emergency legisl`tion that we need to get through. We are | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
looking at legislative options, including secondary legislation and | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
I look forward to taking those at. We need to make sure that wd get the | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
details of any emergency legislation exactly right since we have got to | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
pass it at pace. On the deadline that she mentioned, people should | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
register to vote now. Those registrations will be captured by | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
the system and then we have the legal question of whether c`ptured | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
applications can be eligibld for the 23rd of June and that is thd issue | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
that we will deal with potentially in legislation. People are saying | :06:20. | :06:27. | |
opposite, what is a deadlind? I am absolutely clear, people should | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
register now, today, and we will bring further information as and | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
when we can. On the question she raised on stress tests, we did of | :06:38. | :06:44. | |
course undertake stress tests, we tested to a higher level, a | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
significantly higher level of interest and applications than at | :06:52. | :06:53. | |
the general election last ydar, which is the best comparator but, as | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
I said, the level of interest was significantly higher than the peak | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
then and it is because of this exceptional demand that the website | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
crashed and, ultimately, thhs is a problem that is born out of the flat | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
that thousands and thousands and hundreds of thousands of people are | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
wanting to vote. I think thd interest that shows in exprdssing | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
their democratic wishes is to be commended. First, may I comlend the | :07:24. | :07:34. | |
government and my right honourable friend for so successfully dngaging | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
millions of people to register and vote in this referendum. But I am | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
afraid the problems he has encountered are born out of the fact | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
that the government has been ill-prepared and the Electoral | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
Commission have been ill prdpared for this surge of registrathons The | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
government spent millions of pounds on promoting this so they should | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
have been prepared. We have a cut-off in our legislation because | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
the register has to be finalised and published six days before the | :08:04. | :08:10. | |
referendum. Five days beford, any name on the register can be | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
challenged for the first five days it is on the register. That leaves | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
very little time for anything like legislation. Can I advise hhm that | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
it is probably illegal to kdep the site open for a short period, a few | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
hours, to capture those who did not have the opportunity to reghster | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
yesterday, but any idea of rewriting the rules in any substantial way | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
would be complete madness and make this country look like an absolute | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
shambles in the run-up to this referendum, which is such an | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
important decision. Will we keep this in mind or risk judici`l | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
review? There is no entitlelent for the chair of a Select Committee in | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
these matters to deliver an operation. A short question is what | :08:57. | :09:03. | |
is required. If people could be pithy from now on, that would help. | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
We prepared extensively for a peak in registrations. The extent of the | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
interest in registering was unprecedented. On the point he makes | :09:15. | :09:22. | |
about the length of period for which registrations may be valid hn future | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
in any legislative measure we bring forward, he suggests it shotld be a | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
short period and I agree. This is to rectify the problem of people not | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
being able to vote last night and so we will bring forward proposals most | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
likely with that short period in mind. I don't think we can | :09:45. | :09:55. | |
understate the seriousness of what is this very great catastrophe that | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
has happened. If we go ahead to consult the people of this country | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
on such important decision for the first time in 40 years and denied | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
tens of thousands of our citizens the ability to participate, I think | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
that will tarnish and call hnto question the entire process. It is | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
not enough to come here and say the registration is open and it is OK | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
for people to continue to rdgister, we need an assurance that pdople who | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
register today and from now on are going to be able to vote on the 23rd | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
of June. I would have hoped he would have come here today not just say | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
there might be need for leghslation, we want to see it. Bring forward the | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
emergency measures and you will have the support of these benches in | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
making that happen. I welcole the support from the honourable member. | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
In terms of bringing forward legislation, we are still in | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
discussions with the Electoral Commission. They have put ott a | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
letter saying they would support a legislative approach and I warmly | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
welcome that. In terms of what has led us here, it is important to | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
remember that it is because of the unprecedented success of our | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
registration drive that led to the amount of people trying to register | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
late last night that caused the technical problems in the fhrst | :11:13. | :11:21. | |
place. It is because the Prhme Minister debated with the Ldave | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
aside at 9pm last night that caused a surge in people wanting to vote at | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
10pm. Just extending for a short time would be far better th`n trying | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
to bring through Russian legislation. David a few hotrs | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
today, gives people notice of it, and get on with it. Any extdnsion | :11:39. | :11:47. | |
requires legislative action. That is our understanding of the law and it | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
is the Electoral Commission's understanding of the law and so in | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
order to do exactly what shd proposes, that would requird | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
legislation. Mr Dennis Skinner. This is an emergency without any doubt at | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
all. We are talking about a few hours' time available. If the | :12:09. | :12:16. | |
opposition were prepared to allocate one half of their opposition day to | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
day, would he give a guarantee that that opposition would be given back? | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
I am sure the front bench opposite is grateful for his kind offer. In | :12:30. | :12:40. | |
order for people's registrations to allow them to vote on the 23rd of | :12:41. | :12:48. | |
June, we would need to legislate. If that legislation takes placd | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
tomorrow, that can allow registrations made today to be valid | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
for the vote on the 23rd of June, therefore the message from the Prime | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
Minister and from me, which is incredibly clear, is if people | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
haven't been able to registdr to vote, they should register to vote | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
now and it is incumbent on `ll members in this House took continue | :13:10. | :13:17. | |
to stay that if people want to vote in the referendum on the 23rd of | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
June and they are not yet registered, they should reghster | :13:22. | :13:31. | |
now. Damian Green. I congratulate the Minister on the flexibility he | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
and the government are showhng and I am pleased so many people w`nt to | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
register, particularly young people as they are very enthusiasthc, by | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
and large, about remaining hn the EU. Can I ask him when he is | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
considering the final deadlhne that what should not happen now hs a very | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
short deadline be announced, just in case the same thing happens again. | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
The system has to be able to cope with what might be another surge. A | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
deadline of a few hours I stspect would be ill-advised. As he can | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
imagine, we are putting in place measures to make sure that the | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
system has yet more capacitx in case there is further high interdst | :14:12. | :14:19. | |
because of the news around this potential extension, which we want | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
to see and the Electoral Colmission want to see. On the point about the | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
deadline, there is a very ilportant, practical consideration which the | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
chair of the Select Committde set out very clearly, which is that from | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
the closure of the registration for the referendum, electoral | :14:39. | :14:40. | |
registration offices to then have to make sure that the electoral roll is | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
correct, so it is important that there is enough time for th`t to | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
happen. Any extension would be for a short time rather than for ` long | :14:50. | :14:50. | |
time. The honourable gentleman is smiling | :14:51. | :15:02. | |
benevolently at me but I wotld happily call him anyway. Mr Alex | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
Salmond. In 2014 we achieved a 8 present registration in Scotland and | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
an 85% turn out with no collapse in a website or registration and no | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
difficulty at the polling stations. However, we were starting from a | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
position where hundreds of thousands of our fellow citizens have been | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
disenfranchised by the procdss of individual registration and the lack | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
of electoral campus. The government were not worried about that because | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
they were mostly young people and they were not going to vote for them | :15:36. | :15:43. | |
anyway. Now he is. It is a shame to bring a note of discord to what was | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
otherwise a reasonably consdnsual discussion. If it was not for our | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
online voter registration sxstem, people would not be able to vote to | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
a midnight deadline at all. It is because of the success of h`ving | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
online registration and the huge demand for participation in this | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
incredibly important that wd have got this and the website collapsed. | :16:08. | :16:14. | |
What I would say is that thd United Kingdom is much larger than just | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
Scotland, the scale of the challenge is much more significant and it is | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
very important. That is why we are taking the action to mature that | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
registration can make sure that people can vote on the 23rd of June. | :16:31. | :16:44. | |
I am very proud to be the Mhnister that introduced online registration | :16:45. | :16:46. | |
and I think it has been a great step forward in our democracy and I | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
disagree with the right honourable gentleman for Gordon who also | :16:51. | :17:00. | |
thinks... I stand here todax as the chair of the APPG. Can I urge the | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
Minister and the House to t`ke a look at some of the recommendations | :17:07. | :17:09. | |
we have recently brought forward to improve the state of the registered. | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
It is important as many people as possible are registered to vote I | :17:14. | :17:21. | |
am very grateful for the intervention. I will study with | :17:22. | :17:33. | |
great interest her recommendations and I understand she is meeting the | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
Minister for Constitutional affairs to discuss them shortly. Mr Ben | :17:37. | :17:43. | |
Bradshaw. It would be an absolute scandal if people who try to vote | :17:44. | :17:46. | |
before the deadline would ddprive a vote in what is the most important | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
vote of any of our lifetimes. Will he pull out all the stops to make | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
sure they can vote? Will he also address a concern that has been | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
raised by constituents of mhne living and working abroad, that they | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
have heard they have been problems with the processing of a huge number | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
of postal and proxy votes at a local level and make sure that those votes | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
are actually counted? Yes, there are very high numbers of postal votes | :18:14. | :18:20. | |
and registrations to vote bx post as opposed to on the website. We are | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
dealing with all these issuds and when he asked me to pull out all the | :18:25. | :18:27. | |
stops, believe me, that is what we are doing. Doctor Julian Lewis. Even | :18:28. | :18:36. | |
before the failure of the electronic system, we heard of cases of | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
thousands of all cards being sent inappropriately to people who do not | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
qualified to vote. Can the linister explain exactly how, with this great | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
strain on the system caused by the search, that sort of mistakd will | :18:51. | :18:52. | |
not be made again? That was an identified software | :18:53. | :19:04. | |
fault which has now been fixed. The electoral commission brought it to | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
the public attention and it has been addressed and lessons have been | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
learned from the exercise. Find you, Mr Speaker. Can I welcome | :19:14. | :19:20. | |
the Minister's statement, l`st week I had a meeting with the officer in | :19:21. | :19:28. | |
my constituency who informed me that postal votes demand has been at an | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
unprecedented level. She has never seen anything like it in her life. | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
She told me that the process is as quick as possible, but post`l votes | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
have been delayed, they havd been sent out and not returned. @ny | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
delays in processing postal votes cannot be tolerated. What is being | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
done to help those who applhed for postal roads that have not been | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
processed? Deliverable post`l votes? Work is being done to make sure that | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
the issue is being addressed. Resources are available to deal with | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
these issues, to make sure that everybody has the democratic right | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
to vote. Ultimately, this is about making sure that everybody who is | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
eligible to, who wants to, has the opportunity to register to | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
participate in this great fdstival of democracy. | :20:20. | :20:26. | |
It's very important that people get the opportunity to register to vote | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
in these circumstances, but it isn't just for this European referendum, | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
it has consequences for othdr elections. I wonder if the Linister | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
has thought about the consepuences of 4.5 million new people on the | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
measure for the boundary colmission, drawing up constituencies on | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
completely wrong numbers now. Well, the boundary commission is | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
continuing its work based on the date, the date agreed by thhs house. | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
The two issues are essentially separate. | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
I am ambitious for my country, that is why earlier today I voted by post | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
to remain. Everyone else who wants to do so should be able to. What | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
estimate is made of the number of people who were able to reghster | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
after 215 last night, and the number who weren't able to? | :21:20. | :21:27. | |
I welcome his support and the support from the Liberal Delocrat | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
benches. I hope in the Housd of Lords, should legislation come | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
forward... He is nodding so I am delighted to see Lib Dem support a | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
beer too. When it comes to the second question he asks, I think it | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
is a very important matter `nd we will take that into consideration. | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
The Minister is clearly putting a great deal of energy into ironing | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
out this particular glitch, but he needs to be seen to be fair to both | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
sides, given the closeness of the results on the 23rd of June. How | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
much energy is he therefore applying to quantifying the number of | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
non-eligible EU nationals who have been sent postal votes becatse, | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
clearly, after the events there are those in the Leave Campo will be | :22:17. | :22:25. | |
calling into question if we haven't quantified those corresponddnce that | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
were sent out in error. We know that that number is under | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
5000 according to the electoral commission and that that problem has | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
been fixed. If we can, by contrast to the previous question, it will be | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
impossible to know the total number of people between 10:15pm and | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
midnight to tried, and didn't then succeed, because some peopld went on | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
to try again and succeed. That's why we think that looking towards, | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
seeing what we can do to extend the deadline, which seems to have broad | :23:01. | :23:03. | |
smoke poured across the house is the right way forward. -- broad support | :23:04. | :23:11. | |
across the house. I'm proud that my former employer | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
has led to so many people registering to vote in the last two | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
weeks, but can the Minister answer my honourable friend's question | :23:20. | :23:22. | |
about what will happen to the postal vote deadline? | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
There are no proposals to change the future... To change now, thd postal | :23:29. | :23:36. | |
vote deadline. We want to m`ke sure we get the registration deadline | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
dealt with appropriately whhch might mean legislation, and of cotrse if | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
that is brought forward we will explain it in full to the house | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
I welcome the news that thotsands who had been wanting to reghster for | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
the referendum, and the extdnsion will encourage even more to register | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
to vote, however, seeing first-hand the long-standing failures of IT | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
infrastructure with things like any jazz connections for health, it was | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
little surprise that the infrastructure couldn't keep up your | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
given the volume of registr`tions. What lessons will be learned from | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
this latest episode and how will the Cabinet Office provides solttions to | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
this age-old problem in rel`tion to IT infrastructure as they ptrsue a | :24:18. | :24:24. | |
new data in Parliament? Believe you me, Mr Speaker, lessons | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
will be learned. What we ard concentrating on today is that | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
everybody who wants to parthcipate in the EU referendum, and is | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
valuable to do so, can vote. I am grateful, Mr Speaker. Clearly, | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
we all want as many people to take up the franchise and throat as | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
possible. The news that over 4 million people have registered in | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
the spring for this referendum is not a shock, we did raise that | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
possibility with the leader of the house and others in the aftdrmath of | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
the boundary review. Surely though, the fact that 4.5 million pdople | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
have registered does call into question the legitimacy of the | :25:03. | :25:04. | |
foundation data upon which the boundary reviews were conducted | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
No, I don't think that is the case. The house decided on the date for | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
the boundary review to start its work, it is very important that that | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
work begins. We need to makd sure that the independent boundary row | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
can come to its conclusion think the time. | :25:24. | :25:30. | |
Young people are disproporthonately likely to be unregistered to vote, | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
can I urge the Minister not only to extend the deadline for as far as we | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
possibly can, but to promotd it as clearly as possible in placds that | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
young people are most likelx to be, such as Facebook and other social | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
media. There has been a huge amount of | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
support and communication both on social media and broadly, bx a wide | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
array of people. I would encourage all those who spent the last few | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
days explaining to people that they have to register in order to vote to | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
now get out there and encourage people to register to vote now, | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
today, knowing that we are doing everything we can to make stre those | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
registrations will allow people to vote on the 23rd of June. Htge | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
numbers of people have been out there doing that, I say to them now, | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
get out there and spread thd word. Surely we must accept that the surge | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
in applications to vote is ` reflection not an interest hn the | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
referendum, but of a number of people disenfranchised, why is the | :26:35. | :26:37. | |
Minister content of the boundary review should go ahead on f`lse | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
figures? Why want to give a commitment to the house tod`y that | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
the boundary commission will work on accurate figures rather than the | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
dodgy statistics you previotsly I'm afraid he's got the wrong end of | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
the stick. The boundary revhew has to do operate on an elector`l roll, | :26:52. | :26:58. | |
an agreed date. That date w`s agreed by this house, and, in the past the | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
boundary review operated on a 10-year cycle. Therefore, the | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
electoral roll was ten years out of date by the time it was revdaled. | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
Now we are moving to five ydars In fact, we've brought in more frequent | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
use of data, electoral roll data by the band revealed. The idea that you | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
can't have a drop-dead date would mean that you wouldn't be able to be | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
bound to rule at all. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Simply having | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
a national Insurance number does not, of itself, establish that | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
someone is eligible to vote in the year referendum. Can my right | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
honourable friend explain what checks are being made to verify that | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
everyone who applied is gentinely able to vote in the referendum? | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
That is an incredibly important question. The eligibility | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
requirements were debated extensively and missiles. After | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
somebody applies to Reg onlhne that application is then not takdn at | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
face value. -- register onlhne. It is checked against government data | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
to strike that prison fits within the rules set by this house. This is | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
one of the things that requhres time between the deadline and polling day | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
to make sure that exactly the concerns he raises are met. | :28:18. | :28:24. | |
The Minister keeps saying that yesterday was unprecedented and they | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
were significantly higher ntmbers, but there were 525,000 opticians | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
yesterday and 485,020 15, why was the system is not paid to cope with | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
it? Is it not time for autolatic registration? | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
The reason these bike was so much bigger is that there was an intense | :28:45. | :28:54. | |
bike in after 9pm. -- spike. The question is about how many people | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
are trying to apply at once. That was three times higher than the peak | :28:58. | :29:04. | |
before the 2015 General Election. The Minister is making a bad | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
situation worse by refusing to give a clear answer on the subject of | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
deadlines for registration. I want to ask about the agile technologies | :29:14. | :29:20. | |
was on the basis for online registration they were chosdn for | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
their scalability when propdrly implemented and resourced. These | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
form the basis for the DVLA, which may also be subject to unprdcedented | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
but predictable surges. Will he commits to laying before thd house a | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
detailed report into why thd scalable technology was not able to | :29:40. | :29:41. | |
deal with a predictable surge demand? | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
She asks a very reasonable puestion. It is certainly one we will be | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
looking at in the lessons ldarned exercise. I just pick her up on one | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
point that I disagree with `bout clarity, about what people should do | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
now. It is incumbent on all of us to get out there and say peopld should | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
register now. We will come forward with, should we choose to, with | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
legislation. I think you can gather that it's highly likely. With | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
legislation that will set ott the deadline, but, what matters right | :30:14. | :30:21. | |
now is that people should gdt on the website, which is currently working, | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
and register to vote. Let b`d message quite loud and clear. | :30:26. | :30:33. | |
I am very grateful but what guidance would be Minister to give to those | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
who want to vote by post because I'm not clear what happens with the 5pm | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
deadline this evening. If an individual register today and is | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
informed tomorrow that they can vote, but can only vote by post is | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
the Government opening itself to a judicial challenge was macro no | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
The two issues are separate. If somebody wants to register, or | :30:55. | :31:01. | |
applied to register yesterd`y but isn't available to vote on the 3rd, | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
the postal vote can't be organised in time, they can still votd by | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
proxy, about opportunities `vailable to make sure they can express the | :31:11. | :31:21. | |
democratic West. -- democratic wish. There's a carry on registration | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
message, should people in Northern Ireland listen to that given that | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
online registration is not `vailable to people in Northern Ireland and | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
they were separate difficulties because of strike action ovdr | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
proposals to centralise services that affected those offices | :31:36. | :31:41. | |
yesterday and last week? This is an important concern in | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
Northern Ireland and any legislation will be absolutely clear about that. | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
We'll sat back down to soon as we can. | :31:50. | :31:56. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. On the point of verification canny Minister say | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
what additional support and help is being given to local authorhties who | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
find themselves undertaking a great deal of verification they h`ve | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
thought they would have to do? We've made clear that we will make | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
resources available to a re`sonable extent if needed to elector`l | :32:13. | :32:14. | |
registration officers to make sure that everybody who wants to, and is | :32:15. | :32:21. | |
eligible, will be able to vote. Like my right honourable frhend I | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
remember the glorious sunny day in September 2014 where hundreds of | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
people were queueing up outside the local authority officers to hand in | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
voter registration, I wonder whether lessons were learned from the surge | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
that happen before the Scottish referendum on the Scottish | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
referendum and 2015 referendum, that is the capacity now exist for any | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
further surge when the deadline is finally announced. Can you `lso | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
confirm that we are talking about online registration and that the | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
paper registration deadline has passed? | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
We are working to ensure th`t should there be a further surge we have the | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
capacity to deal with that. What I say, again, is that the levdl of | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
demand in a short period of time was an precedent did last night. That is | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
why we had the problems we did. -- unprecedented. | :33:12. | :33:18. | |
It is absolutely right that anybody who wanted to register to vote but | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
couldn't is given the opportunity to do so, but, given that therd may be | :33:23. | :33:29. | |
a situation where the referdndum result is close, what legalhties | :33:30. | :33:37. | |
surrounding that in extending the deadline was macro what advhce had | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
the Minister taken in case ` result, a close yes or no result is then | :33:43. | :33:44. | |
challenged legally? This is why we are very -- working | :33:45. | :33:55. | |
very closely with the Electoral Commission and with lawyers to make | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
sure that anything we bring forward is absolutely watertight, bdcause | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
everybody wants to see that referendum take place and everybody | :34:05. | :34:07. | |
who wants to and is eligibld to be able to vote. Clarity is kex. Is | :34:08. | :34:19. | |
there any reason why it can't be done today? We want to make sure | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
that the legislation is absolutely right to make sure that the | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
referendum happens on an entirely legal basis, unchallengeabld, as I | :34:30. | :34:36. | |
am sure she will agree, and that is why we are being very careftl to | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
make sure we get the details exactly right. Tom Elliott. Following on, | :34:40. | :34:50. | |
the industrial action in Northern Ireland, have any form of provisions | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
been made to allow those people to register or register to votd by post | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
or proxy? And the proposed closure of those rural offices in Northern | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
Ireland will only heighten the problem in future years. As I said | :35:04. | :35:11. | |
to his honourable friend, this is an incredibly important matter for | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
Northern Ireland. We are considering the options right now and I would | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
welcome his and all members input from Northern Ireland on how that | :35:22. | :35:23. | |
should be taken forward. Gavin Robinson. It would appear there is a | :35:24. | :35:34. | |
blank cheque from all partids today but until there is a date for | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
certainty when registration will not entitle you to vote, that clarity is | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
required. If a message goes out today that you keep on registering | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
and you will be able to votd, that will lead to problems either | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
tomorrow or towards the weekend It would be good if you could hndicate | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
a day that should do not register by the end of today, your vote will not | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
count. We will make that absolutely clear, when the legislation, should | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
they be sent, is brought forward. We are encouraging people to vote, | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
let's encourage them to reghster now because we are doing all th`t we can | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
to make sure the people who do register now are then going to be | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
able to vote on the 23rd of June. Echoing the comments of the | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
honourable member for Norwich North, the missing millions highlighted | :36:29. | :36:34. | |
many recommendations but whdn I did want to pick up on his autolatic | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
registration. What commission - commitment can we have todax that | :36:39. | :36:46. | |
following this example will be proposals be brought forward to the | :36:47. | :36:52. | |
House? We are going to look into the use of alternative sources of data | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
but we are not yet persuaded on the case for automatic registration But | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
most importantly, what we are concentrating on right now, is | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
making sure that people who want to vote, who are eligible to, will be | :37:07. | :37:14. | |
able to. Point of order. Chris Bryant. I believe it arises the | :37:15. | :37:21. | |
rectory out of the matters that house has just treated and therefore | :37:22. | :37:28. | |
it is proper to take it now. The Minister has said he things in | :37:29. | :37:30. | |
emergency legislation will be necessary if we are to deal with the | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
problem and I think the whole House has said it wants to see it dealt | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
with. We also want to be as helpful as possible. It would be difficult | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
to bring forward legislation, have it all carried today. Howevdr, I | :37:45. | :37:51. | |
presume if it is going to bd primary legislation, it would have to come | :37:52. | :37:54. | |
to the floor of the House, `t the earliest tomorrow. Secondarx | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
legislation would be diffictlt to have in committee because it would | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
have to be set before Mondax. My mere suggestion is that if the | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
Leader of the House were able to come to us later today with a | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
business statement, just to make sure absolutely what is going to | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
happen tomorrow, that would be in the best interests of this House and | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
the other house, who will h`ve two deal with the legislation as well. I | :38:19. | :38:24. | |
am in the happy position of agreeing with the honourable gentlem`n. I | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
have a sense that that would be widely anticipated and | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
enthusiastically supported hn The House. To have some advance | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
indication from the governmdnt that that is the intention would be | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
useful and a supplementary business statement would be the ordinary | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
although not the only way of providing the information, but the | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
Minister is all agog. He is in a state of great excitement and I wish | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
to feel satisfied he pops. Crikey, Mr Speaker. As I made clear, it is | :39:00. | :39:10. | |
likely that we will need legislation. I warmly welcole the | :39:11. | :39:16. | |
Shadow leader's statement jtst now. We will work with him and through | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
the usual channels to make sure this is them as effectively as possible | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
and I will take away the pohnt about whether we should have a business | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
statement today in order to facilitate that. I would expect | :39:28. | :39:39. | |
given the normal courtesy of the Leader of the House, to be kept | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
appraised of the situation has the afternoon and events unfold. I will | :39:43. | :39:49. | |
take other points of order hf they are to do with this matter. If they | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
are on unrelated matters, they should come after the standhng order | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
application. I am saving thd honourable gentleman at. Thd | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
honourable gentleman can't have a commitment that is more important | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
than the chamber. He is the ultimate parliamentarian. We will he`r from | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
him soon and I am becoming increasingly excited at the | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
prospect. Me too, says the Linister. I am not sure he will feel the same | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
way at the end of the point of order. In a moment, I will call the | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
honourable lady to make an application for leave to propose a | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
debate on a specific and important matter that should have urgdnt | :40:31. | :40:33. | |
consideration under the terls of standing order number 24. I must | :40:34. | :40:41. | |
inform the honourable lady that she has had to three minutes in which to | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
submit your application. I seek leave to propose that the | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
House should debate and important matter, namely to back unrelated | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
products regulation ready 16. This is a time sensitive EU dikt`t that | :40:56. | :41:02. | |
is allocated to the governmdnt as a negative statutory instrument. | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
Unless the government gives any time to discuss it, it will just pass | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
through. The backbench commhttee is not reconvene and has only let twice | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
since this was brought in. Ht was tabled in April and has had | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
cross-party support. The tobacco regulations will have a hugd impact | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
on the industry. If these revelations passed beyond the date | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
of June 15, this House will not have had an opportunity to debatd this | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
important matter. Only two lonths ago the Royal College of Phxsicians | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
warned wider use of nicotind products could substantiallx | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
increase the number of smokdrs and is therefore likely to generate | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
significant health... Last xear Public Health England found | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
e-cigarettes were less harmful than smoking. Our view, based on all the | :41:47. | :41:53. | |
evidence available, is that e-cigarettes can help smokers quit | :41:54. | :41:55. | |
and they are considerably ldss harmful to health. Yet thesd | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
regulations that we have yet discussed or debated in this House | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
will seek to impose severe limits on advertising the products and bring | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
e-cigarettes under the same regulations as cigarettes. The | :42:09. | :42:16. | |
Minister said in May, we wish people to quit altogether but if there is a | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
way they can quit smoking and pick up fake then, that is something we | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
wish to encourage. I hope the House will be given an opportunitx to | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
consider this as there is a significant impact on smoking, | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
public health, which shows we should give some consideration before we | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
have too absorbed this Brussels regulation. The honourable lady asks | :42:36. | :42:44. | |
leave to propose a debate on a specific and important mattdr which | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
should have urgent consider`tion, namely the tobacco and related | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
products 2016. I have listened carefully to the option but I am not | :42:53. | :42:59. | |
sure this is proper to be dhscussed under standing order 24. I would add | :43:00. | :43:06. | |
that if there is significant interest in this matter, either in | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
the House or beyond, it might be regarded as helpful if, through the | :43:12. | :43:18. | |
usual channels, a debate on it were arranged. I express myself hn those | :43:19. | :43:25. | |
relatively careful and understated terms for it is not within the | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
remake of the chair. That jtdgment has to be made elsewhere. Btt the | :43:31. | :43:37. | |
honourable lady, she has made her case with force and eloquence, and | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
if I have learned anything `bout her over the last 11 years we h`ve | :43:43. | :43:45. | |
served in the House together, I would say it is pretty unlikely that | :43:46. | :43:47. | |
she will let go of the bone. Point of order. In reply to my | :43:48. | :44:03. | |
honourable friend, the membdr for Dorset South, the Prime Minhster | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
made an assertion regarding the question of the treaty change. He | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
said we have secured treaty change. That is clearly not the casd and I | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
do say to you, Mr Speaker, this may have been inadvertent. If so, I have | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
no doubt the Prime Minister will take the opportunity to correct | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
that, but I do say there was not a statement that could be sustained in | :44:29. | :44:36. | |
the light of the facts. I al at a disadvantage right comparison with | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
the honourable gentleman in that I myself do not enjoy a precise recall | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
of everything that the Primd Minister said at Prime Minister s | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
Questions earlier, though I rather imagine the honourable gentleman | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
does have such a recall and may even be capable of reproducing the | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
verbatim text of prime ministerial answers backwards. What I whll say | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
to the honourable gentleman is that anyone who gives incorrect | :45:04. | :45:06. | |
information to the House is responsible for correcting ht. If | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
the Prime Minister judges hd made a mistake, which would naturally be | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
inadvertent, the responsibility upon him is no less great or absolute | :45:17. | :45:19. | |
than it would be up on any other member. Knowing the honourable | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
gentleman as I do, I feel stre that he too will let go of the bone until | :45:26. | :45:34. | |
he receives satisfaction. I will leave it there. The point of order | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
will have been heard on the Treasury bench and I am sure its contents | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
will win its way to the ten Downing St. Point of order. I am hoping you | :45:44. | :45:50. | |
will be able to help me and advise me on how I can achieve somd | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
consistency on the government's position on Saudi Arabia. On the | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
24th of May, the Foreign Secretary said there was no evidence xet that | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
Saudi Arabia has used clustdr munitions. However, in a wrhtten | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
answer on the 22nd of May, the Secretary of State for the defence | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
said the UK is a way that S`udi Arabia has used cluster munhtions in | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
the current conflict in Yemdn and in a debate this morning, the Linister | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
for Europe said we are seekhng clarification about allegathons I | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
hope you would agree with md that this does highlight some conclusion | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
-- confusion at the heart of government which must cast doubt on | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
the government's assurances that the Saudis have not broken international | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
humanitarian law. My response to the honourable gentleman is twofold | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
First of all, I am not responsible for the consistency of government | :46:45. | :46:53. | |
statements. It is probably `s well that the chair has never bedn | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
responsible for the said consistency under any government of whichever | :46:59. | :47:05. | |
complexion. Secondly, if thd honourable gentleman feels that the | :47:06. | :47:12. | |
statements to which he has referred cause such confusion or uncdrtainty | :47:13. | :47:22. | |
as to render an urgent clarhfication vital, he notes that there `re | :47:23. | :47:30. | |
devices available to him. I say this not to flatter him but as a matter | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
of fact. The honourable gentleman is a former Deputy Leader of this House | :47:36. | :47:41. | |
so he is well versed in the mechanisms available to him. If | :47:42. | :47:48. | |
there are no further points of order, I think the House' appetite | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
has been satisfied for now, we come to the motion in the name of the | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
Leader of the Opposition on the BBC White Paper. I should perhaps inform | :47:58. | :48:06. | |
the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of thd Prime | :48:07. | :48:12. | |
Minister. To move the motion, the Shadow Secretary of State for | :48:13. | :48:14. | |
culture, media and sport, M`ria Eagle. I beg to move the motion | :48:15. | :48:21. | |
standing in my name and that of my right honourable and honour`ble | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
friends. The new BBC Charter will form one of the legacies of the | :48:25. | :48:27. | |
Secretary of State for culttre, media and sport for good or ill I | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
don't say this by way of making any predictions at all about thd right | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
honourable gentleman from Wolverine's immediate polithcal | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
future as a cabinet minister post EU referendum in the Prime Minhster's | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
revenge reshuffle, but simply as a fact of life. | :48:47. | :48:54. | |
The BBC, Mr Speaker, is a rdvered trusted national institution, | :48:55. | :49:01. | |
something to which we all contribute, something of whhch we | :49:02. | :49:04. | |
can all be proud. And upon which we all rely for much of our qu`lity | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
programming. In addition, it is admired around the world, it enables | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
us to project the UK's infltence and soft power across the globe. It is | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
at the heart of our much adlired public broadcasting ecology. It | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
helps to facilitate and nurture our creative industries and taldnts | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
charter renewal provides an opportunity for a to be supported | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
and nurtured rather than denigrated and diminished. Unfortunately, I do | :49:35. | :49:41. | |
not believe that the White Paper produced by the Right honourable | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
gentleman rises to this challenge. I fear, instead, it is intenddd to | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
diminish the scope and effectiveness of the BBC. Even though the White | :49:51. | :49:57. | |
Paper did not contain some of the wilder and more yielded proposals | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
briefed by his department, to Conservative supporting newspapers | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
ahead of its publication it contains measures which May undermind the | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
BBC's editorial and financi`l independence. And which may be used | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
to chip away during the charter period that the things which make | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
the BBC the great Britain shnce Touche and additives. Furthdrmore, | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
it is clear from the consultation responses that the public do not | :50:26. | :50:28. | |
support the director in which they white paper now poses to take the | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
BBC. -- the direction in whhch the White Paper now proposes to take the | :50:35. | :50:40. | |
BBC. I intend to ask the Secretary of State, going forward, to think | :50:41. | :50:46. | |
again about some of his proposals. Madam Deputy Speaker, the BBC's | :50:47. | :50:49. | |
editorial independence is one of its most important, well, one of the | :50:50. | :50:58. | |
most important requirements of success going forward for the BBC. | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
It must be protected at all costs. And there must be no suspichon that | :51:04. | :51:07. | |
the Government of the day c`n influence the BBC board in `nyway, | :51:08. | :51:15. | |
so, the White Paper proposal for BBC governance is amongst the most | :51:16. | :51:18. | |
important of all the propos`ls in the White Paper. Three quarters of | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
the public want the BBC to remain independent according to thd | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
Government's on consultation. 5 % of the public believe that the BBC is | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
the broadcaster most likely to produce balanced and unbiasdd news | :51:34. | :51:40. | |
reporting compared with 14% for ITN, 13% for sky and 13% for Channel 4. | :51:41. | :51:46. | |
The public really do value the independence editorial independence | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
of the BBC. I will give way to the honourable gentleman. I am very | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
grateful and loath to stop her but I wonder if she has seen the survey | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
from the Government which looked at responses across the UK. Shd will | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
have found that the greatest numbers of dissatisfaction were frol | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
Scotland, dodged this not stggest that we have to be creative in how | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
we approach this? The time has come from a federal BBC and a Scottish | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
News service produced and dhrected in Scotland. Understand the | :52:19. | :52:25. | |
honourable gentleman's focus on matters Scottish, and I respect the | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
fact that he has views about what the policies ought to be to address | :52:29. | :52:36. | |
those matters. I don't, mysdlf, believe in the policy perspdctives | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
that he has just suggested `s the only, or indeed, the right way | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
forward. But they agree abott this, it is correct that the BBC ought | :52:45. | :52:53. | |
better to be able to reflect the nations and regions of this country | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
in the way it produces news and other programming. Some of the | :52:58. | :53:03. | |
proposals will increasing dhversity and for devolving production and | :53:04. | :53:12. | |
devolving power within the BBC is something that I think will gain | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
support across the house. Btt precisely how that oughta bd done in | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
Scotland isn't something th`t we would necessarily agree abott. | :53:20. | :53:26. | |
Nobody in this house, I hopd, wants to see the BBC become estatd | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
broadcaster or have arrangelents for governments that give the ilpression | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
that it is. The Government lust ensure that there is no question of | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
government influence on editorial decision-making. There are serious | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
concerns that these plans provide too much power for the Government, | :53:43. | :53:47. | |
and in the day-to-day infludnce of the BBC's editorial decision-making. | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
The director-general has sahd.. I will in a moment, yes. I know the | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
right honourable gentleman has had some important things to sax on | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
this. The director-general has said there are honest disagreements | :54:02. | :54:04. | |
between ministers at the BBC as to how best to protect and enh`nce BBC | :54:05. | :54:10. | |
editorial independence. He hs a diplomat. | :54:11. | :54:12. | |
I give way to the honourabld gentleman. I thank the right | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
honourable lady for giving way. I share her passion for BBC | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
independence of a former BBC journalist. I have been on both | :54:23. | :54:25. | |
sides of these are commencing my time. She quoted, rightly, `ll the | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
audience satisfaction of public support for the BBC which I share as | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
well, as she knows. But her basic position seems to be that the | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
Government's puzzles in somd way undermine fundamentals of the BBC. I | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
would gently point out to hdr that among the people who welcomdd the | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
Government's puzzles were the BBC. The BBC does not feel it is being | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
undermined, why do she feel the BBC is being undermined? | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
I think... I understand the point is the honourable gentleman makes, but | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
I think when the BBC's Theatre for the next 11 years is to be decided | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
by the Government of the dax, it's not surprising to me that they may | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
well agree in public with almost anything that the Government of the | :55:12. | :55:20. | |
day says. -- the BBC's future. What is going on behind-the-scends a | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
different point. We all accept that the BBC welcomed | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
these posers because it got off lightly. They are still funded | :55:30. | :55:32. | |
publicly for the next 11 ye`rs. They are still going to be able to | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
continue with their practicds, wasteful practices of spendhng money | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
in a cavalier manner, and whth very little input and curtailment from | :55:41. | :55:47. | |
the Government. I don't agree with that analysis | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
from the honourable gentlem`n, Madam Deputy Speaker, the proposed new | :55:53. | :55:59. | |
unitary board will run the BBC, in a statement on the White Paper in this | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
house be secretary of state suggested that the new board would | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
be like the BBC trust but whthout the regulatory functions thdy | :56:08. | :56:09. | |
currently have which would go to Ofcom. In my view that stretches | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
credulity. Page 51 of the White Paper says that the borders are | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
whole will have responsibilhty for setting the overall editori`l | :56:22. | :56:23. | |
direction and framework editorial standards. There is to be only one | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
board, instead of two boards, that unitary board will run the BBC in | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
all meaningful sensors. The secretary of State plans to enable | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
ministers to appoint up to half of the new board members including the | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
chair and step DJ. This cre`tes an unprecedented power for the | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
Government directly to infltence those responsible for editorial | :56:47. | :56:49. | |
matters that the BBC. I will give way. | :56:50. | :56:54. | |
I found my right on the front for giving way, on page 50 of the report | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
it states clearly that the chairperson would be subject to it | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
hearing by the culture medi` and sport select committee. Members of | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
the board would be subject of discussions with the Governlent in | :57:06. | :57:08. | |
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Is she not satisfidd with | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
that? I thank the honourable gentleman for | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
promoting me to the Privy Council and suggesting I might be a member | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
of the Tory party. We got a little bit too far. It is true of course | :57:21. | :57:29. | |
that there are some safeguards implied in the proposals as the good | :57:30. | :57:36. | |
part. That is to be welcomed, but how this looks is also important to | :57:37. | :57:42. | |
those outside. I think simply reiterating that the | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
chief doesn't really relate to fears chief doesn't really relate to fears | :57:46. | :57:51. | |
that his plans, in fact, crdate I also think that these are jtst a's | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
recent record in respect of public appointments does not reasstre those | :57:57. | :58:02. | |
of us who are worried... Established the National portrait Gallery failed | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
to short list his five favotrite candidates. Three of whom would Tory | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
donors and one was an ex-minister. He simply scrap the appointlent | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
process and in an attempt to impugn the integrity of the chain of that | :58:17. | :58:22. | |
panel. This prompted a slap down from the now retired commission of | :58:23. | :58:25. | |
public appointments who acctsed him of exercising political intdrference | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
in an objective public appohntment process. We only know about this to | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
boggle because Sir David's letter was leaked. Members from all sides | :58:35. | :58:41. | |
of the house have expressed concern about the occasions for the BBC and | :58:42. | :58:50. | |
its editorial independence. The member may have had his concerns | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
allayed, but he has describdd editorial independence of the red | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
line for him. These select committee chairman said, as recently `s | :59:00. | :59:02. | |
yesterday, that the plans h`d prompted a lot of concern. The voice | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
of the view and listen have said that they remain a number of | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
concerns relating to independence. It's still not too late for the | :59:11. | :59:13. | |
secretary of state to make clear that these appointments to the new | :59:14. | :59:18. | |
unitary board would be made through a demonstrably independent leans, | :59:19. | :59:21. | |
and he will not seek to influence the outcome of the process. I think, | :59:22. | :59:26. | |
it would benefit him if he were to do so. So why doesn't he undertake | :59:27. | :59:32. | |
today to agree that the Comlissioner for Public appointments shotld run | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
the process of appointing the board members and restrict his own power | :59:37. | :59:43. | |
tool appointing those selected using an independent process. He really | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
needs to provide proper reassurance. I think such only undertaking would | :59:48. | :59:54. | |
be heartily welcomed across this house. Ofcom would have a ndw role, | :59:55. | :59:59. | |
setting service licences and quotas for the BBC. It will be important | :00:00. | :00:04. | |
but this regulatory regime hs not used to interfere with the dditorial | :00:05. | :00:09. | |
and creative freedom of the BBC to use licence fee payers monex to | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
produce the programming it decides to produce. There must be nowhere | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
from the Government to purste the wilder proposals on schedulhng and | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
so-called distinctiveness that did not, in the end, find their way into | :00:23. | :00:31. | |
White Paper. We hope Ofcom's role will not impact the BBC's editorial | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
independence or be a weapon used by governments or the BBC's colmercial | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
rivals to interfere with thd BBC's creative freedom. The BBC mtst be | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
seen to retain its financial independence as well as its | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
editorial independence. In that respect, the explicit referdnce that | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
the licensee is not solely for the use of the BBC, on page 97, is | :00:56. | :01:02. | |
deplorable. It impinges, in my view, on the BBC's financial independence. | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
I am glad there is to be no more top sizing of the licence fee. This | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
would have constituted a brdach of last year's funding agreements of | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
which I have been critical hn any event. The White Paper does oppose | :01:16. | :01:22. | |
the creation of a contestable part of licence fee payer's monex with | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
?20 million a year over thrde years. I think this site is an unwdlcome | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
precedent. Governments of all stripes have been too keen, in my | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
view, over recent years to see the licence fee payer's money as money | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
that the Treasury should be able to allocate to its own priorithes. I | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
think it's better to view the licence fee payer's money properly | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
as belonging to the BBC, to enable it to fulfil its remit. It should be | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
for the BBC to decide how would wish to do that, not for the sitd just | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
laid over the Chancellor of the Exchequer. These are your state has | :01:59. | :02:00. | |
said that his department will consult on this proposal, if the | :02:01. | :02:08. | |
responses are against establishing a contestable part, will ease that | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
your state undertake to drop the idea? And can you tell as today when | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
his consultation will start, and when he intended to finish? Carney | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
confirmed that the same levdls of transparency and accountability that | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
apply to BBC funding would be applied to this contestable part if | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
his pilot still goes ahead? And has he considered the fact that this may | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
be categorised as state aid if it's given to other broadcasters to use | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
as he no doubt intense? Mad`m Deputy Speaker, we agree that the BBC | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
should be as transparent and accountable as possible, for the | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
licence fee payer's money that its bands, so will we on this shde of | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
the house support the idea of a National Audit Office being allowed | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
to investigate the publicly funded areas of the BBC. However, `llowing | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
the NAL toward the BBC's colmercial operations which are not in receipt | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
of any licence fee payer's loney could place those operations at a | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
significant market disadvantage What it is therefore doing so? The | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
commercial operations for mtseums are not open to National Audit | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
Office scrutiny. I know of no organisation in the private sector | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
that receives public money that is subject to scrutiny. I belidve that | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
failure to get this right could have the effect of reducing returns for | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
BBC worldwide, thereby limiting the extent to which the BBC is `ble to | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
subsidise the licence fee through its commercial operations. | :03:48. | :04:16. | |
The Public Accounts Committde has a long-standing issue with thd BBC in | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
terms of Parliamentary accountability. Ishii in favour of | :04:22. | :04:29. | |
an increase in that? I am indeed. That is going back a bit now. But it | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
is one of the reasons why I have a very high regard for the abhlities | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
of the NA oh and I have no problem with the National Audit Offhce being | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
the auditor of the BBC but H do think there is an issue abott its | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
purely commercial operations and whether or not it is appropriate for | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
the National Audit Office to pursue what is entirely private money and | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
nothing to do with any publhc money. It is an interesting preceddnt if it | :04:58. | :05:00. | |
goes ahead but I do want to hear from the Secretary of State about | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
why he thinks that might be appropriate and what the arguments | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
for doing this are. I think there are potential difficulties. Madam | :05:09. | :05:16. | |
Deputy Speaker, I am also concerned about the imposition of the mid term | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
health check into the new charter. It seems suspiciously like the break | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
clause that the newspaper briefed the Secretary of State wantdd by | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
another name. The charter is to be for 11 years and that is solething | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
that really on this side of the House welcome. But it should not be | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
compromised or the agreement underpinning it reopened by the back | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
door that period. I am concdrned that this so-called health check, or | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
break clause by another namd perhaps, is destabilising for the | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
BBC and creates a kind of uncertainty that will not bd | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
helpful. Page 58 of the White Paper says it will be for the govdrnment | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
of the day to determine the precise scope of this health check, | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
consulting the BBC's unitarx board and of common. So the government | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
could decide to reopen questions of whether, for example, the lhcense B | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
B belongs to the BBC or shotld be given to other broadcasters, whether | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
or not the licence fee itself is the right funding method going forward. | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
There are any number of othdr things that the government of the day may | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
decide and which would in effect reopen the charter settlement. The | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
Secretary of State took be culture media and sport committee ydsterday | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
that this was not his intention I think he has an opportunity now to | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
give a guarantee in the charter and in the agreement that he makes with | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
the BBC that any such process will have the narrowest possible focus | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
and cannot be used to reopen fundamental tenants which | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
underpinned the charter half way through it. So it is not gohng to | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
be, in other words, a five-xear charter in all but name. I know that | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
there are members of This House who have raised this issue at the time | :07:15. | :07:21. | |
the White Paper was publishdd. Ministers were pressed for lore | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
detail on this immediately `fter the publication of the White Paper. | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
Others have questioned the plan to have such a review, arguing that | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
these functions should be ldft to a strong board of independent | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
directors who should be allowed to run the BBC without interference. I | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
find myself agreeing on that. Can the Secretary of State, in his reply | :07:45. | :07:51. | |
today, confirm that this he`lth check, if indeed he decides to | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
persevere with it, will onlx be able to recommend proposals to bd | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
included in the subsequent charter rather than being used to compromise | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
the BBC's independence midw`y through the charter term, which we | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
are just about to embark upon. And can he reassure the House and those | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
of us on this side of the House that it will be set in the narrowest | :08:13. | :08:22. | |
possible terms? The BBC's for mission to inform, educate `nd | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
entertain has worked well for over 90 years. That is the found`tion | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
upon which the corporation's success has been built. There has always | :08:31. | :08:37. | |
been a virtue in the dash and clarity provided by the simplest of | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
the the mission statement that stood the BBC in good stead. So why is he | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
determined to alter the substance of the mission statement to include an | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
explicit requirement to be distinctive high-quality and | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
impartial, and what exactly does the government mean by distincthveness? | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
It is one of those words th`t can mean all things to all people. And | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
it certainly means something different to him than it is to the | :09:05. | :09:07. | |
BBC or the anecdotes to members of the public. Age 33 of the White | :09:08. | :09:17. | |
Paper says the BBC should bd substantially different to other | :09:18. | :09:19. | |
providers across each and every service. But that hardly re`lly pins | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
it down. Ministers must all`y concerns that this could be | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
interpreted as the BBC being forced to withdraw from anything its | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
commercial rivals wish it w`s not doing. The Secretary of State has in | :09:34. | :09:41. | |
the past questioned the distinctiveness of some of the BBC's | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
most popular programmes, like strictly come dancing. The White | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
Paper says the government is clear that it cannot and should not | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
determine other content or scheduling programmes but it also | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
sets out prescriptive content requirements for radio and TV to | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
take one example for TV it demands on page 38 fewer high output | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
long-term titles. He seems to be telling the easy to stop producing | :10:11. | :10:20. | |
much loved shows. What reassurances can he give that he is not simply | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
going to require .com to make the BBC back off doing things hd does | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
not like on the basis of thdse extremely prescriptive requhrements? | :10:33. | :10:41. | |
-- of common. Would you accdpt that companies like ITV do have ` valid | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
point when they say that thd many which BBC has available to them | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
every year through the licence fee enables them to have the advantage | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
when it comes to the ratings war and buying in programmes which help in | :10:56. | :11:02. | |
that ratings war? I think that competition between private and | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
commercial and public broadcasters in this country on the basis of | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
high-quality programming benefits all sectors and benefit the British | :11:12. | :11:18. | |
public and benefit our creative industries. I don't accept that in | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
some way the BBC being able to make good quality programmes over an | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
extended number of years solehow compromises the capacity of the rest | :11:29. | :11:36. | |
of our broadcasting industrx to do similar things. It gives us a | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
better, bigger, richer broadcasting ecology and the Secretary of State, | :11:42. | :11:48. | |
who is a free market by instinct, wishes to intervene by micromanaging | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
the public sector elements of our broadcasting industry, he is making | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
a very big mistake as well `s turning into a statist interfering | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
Minister who should just le`ve our broadcasters to get on with doing | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
the job they do so well. But Italy those who work in the BBC. ,- | :12:08. | :12:20. | |
particularly those. In regards to the Minister micromanaging the BBC, | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
are you as disappointed as H am in regards to this, not in reg`rds to | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
diversity and making sure that we have more diversity through the BBC, | :12:30. | :12:37. | |
through programmes and prodtces Well, I agree with my honourable | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
friend that the BBC needs to do more when it comes to diversity `nd to be | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
fair to the Right honourabld gentleman, and I want to be fair to | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
him, of course, he is concerned about this too. I think it hs | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
perfectly reasonable to expdct the BBC to achieve results. The | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
difficulty is when ministers start telling them precisely how they | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
should achieve those results. That is when we run into difficulties. It | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
is perfectly reasonable to dxpect the BBC to do better. I think we all | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
expect the BBC Two do better in that regard. -- the BBC to do better | :13:17. | :13:26. | |
192,000 people participated in the public consultation on the charter. | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
The second largest response to a government consultation heaven. Over | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
four fifths of the responses indicated that the BBC is sdrving | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
its audience well, two thirds indicated the BBC has a poshtive | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
wider impact on the market `nd approximately two thirds of | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
responses indicated that thdy thought their BBC expansion was | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
justified rather than its diminishing. So while the ptblic's | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
overwhelming support for thd BBC can't be in any doubt, the Secretary | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
of State should recall that there is some concern also about somd of the | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
government's proposals. 62 present of over 60s are suspicious of the | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
government's intentions tow`rds the BBC. I hope that the Secret`ry of | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
State will consider fully the widespread concerns amongst the | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
public in -- industry professionals and parliamentarians about his | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
proposals and take steps genuinely to change them to reassure those of | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
us who care about the futurd of the BBC over the next Charter pdriod. | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
And if he was to do so, he will be able to look back upon this time in | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
office as Secretary of Statd for culture, media and sport, knowing | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
that he boosted the BBC if he does not -- boosted the BBC. If we does | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
not do so, I believe his legacy will be seen as rather more destructive. | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
I called the Secretary of State to move the government amendment. I beg | :14:58. | :15:04. | |
to move the amendment standhng in my name and those of my right | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
honourable friend. I would first of all like to thank the honourable | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
lady for giving the House the opportunity to debate the White | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
Paper on the future of the BBC. Even if I was less happy with thd terms | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
of emotion. In her emotion, she talks about the threat to the | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
editorial and financial inddpendence of the BBC. Two principles which are | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
explicitly strengthened rather than weakened under the proposals in the | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
White Paper. However, it is typical of the entire process of ch`rter | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
renewal and the debate around it, which has been characterised by the | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
government's critics tilting at windmills. Perhaps as a tribute .. | :15:50. | :16:05. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, this was not a White Paper designed to wreck the | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
BBC but rather to cement its status as the finest broadcaster in the | :16:11. | :16:13. | |
world for many years to comd. The White Paper was informed by an | :16:14. | :16:21. | |
extensive consultation, the largest of its kind ever undertaken by | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
government. We talked frequdntly and at length to representatives of the | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
BBC, both the management and the trust, in what the BBC J has | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
described as constructive engagement. We received mord than | :16:36. | :16:44. | |
190,000 responses from the public. 16 focus groups were held. There was | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
nationally representative polling of more than 4000 adults across the UK, | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
and more than 300 organisathons and experts engaged with this. H will | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
not list all of those but jtst to give a flavour of how diverse they | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
were, they included the Austrian broadcasting Corporation, the | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
British film Institute, Equhty, Glasgow Council, Celerity Hdnry the | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
National Union of Journalists, UK sport and the welcome trust. I am | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
also grateful to the members of the advisory group who provided expert | :17:22. | :17:28. | |
views, to two panels containing some of the best and brightest creative | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
minds working in television today and to David Clementi and D`vid | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
Perry, who conducted detaildd reviews of BBC governance and of the | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
licence fee in force in respectively. Moreover, we have seen | :17:43. | :17:53. | |
published reports. Each one was considered very carefully bx myself | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
and the Department and I am pleased that we agreed with many of their | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
recommendations. I am happy to give way. The dissatisfaction levels are | :18:02. | :18:13. | |
higher in Scotland than in the rest of the UK. There is a sense the BBC | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
does not adequately reflect this as a nation. What is he going to do to | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
address these concerns? I do share the concern expressed by thd | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
honourable gentleman. It is a matter that I discussed at some length with | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
his colleague, who I think hs hoping to catch your eye shortly. But who | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
is also a member of the Seldct Committee, which I gave evidence to | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
yesterday on charter review. He is absolutely right that opinion | :18:43. | :18:49. | |
research has shown that the level of satisfaction with the BBC, while | :18:50. | :18:50. | |
still being high, is We have sought to put in pl`ce new | :18:51. | :19:08. | |
measures which I hope will dnsure that the BBC takes action to address | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
this. Firstly, in terms of the representation on the board of | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
somebody who will act as a voice for Scotland and I will come on to the | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
governance arrangements shortly but also with a new service licdnce for | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
each of the nations of the TK, a specific service licence repuiring | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
the BBC or setting out in broad terms how the BBC is expectdd to | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
ensure that it meets the nedds of people in Scotland. At the dnd of | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
the day, these are matters for the BBC. The service licence, lhke all | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
the service licences, will be set in broad terms. How the BBC gods about | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
raising the level of satisf`ction in its output in Scotland is ultimately | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
a matter for them but I know that it's something they are anxhous to | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
address and I am sure he will be happy - the director general will be | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
happy to talk to him further about that. I am grateful to the Secretary | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
of State because he knows there is great concern about this in Scotland | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
and a few proposals have emdrged. Like the one about a more fdderal | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
type of BBC and also the ongoing discussion about a new servhce | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
produced in Scotland where we can see the eyes of the world through a | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
Scottish production and Scottish values. Does he see merit in them | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
and what is wrong with thesd suggestions, if not? This is the | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
point at which I fear I shall disappoint the honourable gdntleman. | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
Whilst I think it is import`nt that the BBC achieves high levels of | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
satisfaction right across the United Kingdom, it is the British | :20:49. | :20:50. | |
Broadcasting Corporation. It does represent the whole of the Tnited | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
Kingdom and I do not support making it a federal structure. The question | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
of how it provides its news coverage is for the BBC but I also bdlieve | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
that as the UK broadcaster ht is important that there should be a | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
UK-wide national news bulletin which draws the nation together. H am | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
happy to give way. I thank the Secretary of State for giving way. | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
He is being generous in that regard. In terms of Scotland and other | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
regions within the United Khngdom, I wonder if he agrees that Scotland | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
actually has in terms of thhs new arrangement far greater | :21:27. | :21:29. | |
representation than many regions within England itself. For dxample, | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
the West Midlands, an equiv`lent population to Scotland, whereas in | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
that respect Scotland has a greater seat around the table. Of course | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
there will be a non-executive member of the BBC board to represent | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
England, but not specifically each region. But the requirement on the | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
BBC as part of its purposes to serve the nations and regions is clear and | :21:56. | :22:02. | |
the BBC, again I am sure is fully aware of the dissatisfaction felt in | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
some parts of England and mx honourable friend obviously | :22:09. | :22:10. | |
identifies the West Midlands where the matter has already been debated | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
in the House in the past about the level of investment by the BBC in | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
the West Midlands and I do believe that it is important that the BBC, | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
both invests in production hn every part of the United Kingdom `nd also | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
that its programming should reflect the requirements. I am happx to give | :22:29. | :22:36. | |
way. Thank you very much. Mdntion is made in the White Paper of | :22:37. | :22:39. | |
sub-committees for the four nations and I wondered if he could perhaps | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
elaborate more on what might be the make-up of those sub-committees and | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
how they will be chosen? I `m afraid I can't at this stage. I thhnk it's | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
primarily a matter for the BBC. Whilst the charter will set out the | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
overarching governance structure, in other words, the creation of a board | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
and an external regulator, how the BBC is organised within the | :23:06. | :23:07. | |
corporation itself is largely a matter for the BBC. But I would | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
obviously encourage her to discuss that matter with the BBC and perhaps | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
the new chairman of the board who obviously is currently the chairman | :23:18. | :23:26. | |
of the BBC Trust. I was tempted by the honourable gentleman from the | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
Scottish National Party to talk about some of the evidence H gave | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
yesterday to the Select Comlittee. The House of Lords committed | :23:36. | :23:37. | |
obviously has also taken a close interest and I have no doubt that | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
the committees in both Housds will continue to take an interest in | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
these matters as we move to produce a draft charter which I hopd to do | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
before the summer. Members will then have plenty of time to studx it in | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
detail before debates in both Houses as well as in the devolved | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
administrations as we committed to in the memorandum of understanding | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
with the devolved administr`tions. Then once approved by the Privy | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
Council the new charter will formally come into effect on 1st | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
January 2017 and the BBC will then transition to its new model of | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
governance and regulation over the ensuing months. Now I am not going | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
to go through all the details of the White Paper because we had ` lengthy | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
discussion when it was publhshed, but let me address the two specific | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
concerns which were raised by the honourable lady of editorial and | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
financial independence. On the former, the new governance structure | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
is exactly as recommended bx Sir David in a report which was very | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
widely welcomed. Whereas prdviously all of the appointments of the | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
governance of the BBC and then following changes the BBC Trust all | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
of those appointments were previously made by the Government, | :25:00. | :25:06. | |
at least half of the new BBC board will be appointed by the BBC. Ball | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
in the back of the net! The six positions which are Governmdnt | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
appointees will be made through the public appointments process which | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
itself wasn't in place before and the new Commissioner for public | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
appointments, Peter Riddle, has said, I welcome the broad principles | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
outlined in today's BBC White Paper about how appointments will be made | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
to the new unitary board. To put these into practice there whll need | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
to be a robust independent process which attracts a range of c`ndidates | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
for these posts. That is ex`ctly what the Government wants to see. | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
The BBC, I would point out, actually accept that the Government should | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
make the appointment of the chairman and the deputy chairman through the | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
public appointments process. The BBC have questioned whether or not the | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
Government should make the appointment of four NEDs. I would | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
point out those four NEDs are there specifically to represent e`ch of | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
the nations of the UK and their appointment is not just madd by the | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
Government in Westminster t will be done in consultation with the | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
devolved administrations and so if that was taken away we would lose | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
the ability of devolved administrations to have a s`y in the | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
appointment of a governor to represent each of the nations of the | :26:31. | :26:39. | |
UK. However, as well as putting in place a more independent bo`rd we | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
will also strengthen the independence of the director general | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
as editor-in-chief. Editori`l decisions will be a matter for him | :26:50. | :26:56. | |
and the BBC executives, not for non-executive board members. They | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
will be able to hold the director general to account for his dditorial | :27:02. | :27:08. | |
decisions but only after programmes are transmitted. It is clear that | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
the board's involvement is to oversee and deal with possible | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
complaints about editorial decisions but only after transmission of | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
programmes. Now the honourable lady mentioned that we have decided to | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
extend the term of the charter to 11 years specifically in order to meet | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
the concern that it should not coincide with the electoral cycle | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
and it is correct that we are intending to have a health check at | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
mid-term. Now I have said rdpeatedly that it is precisely that, ht is a | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
health check. It is not an opening up of the charter. However, it does | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
seem to me only sensible th`t if you are setting a charter for 10 years | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
you should not have no opportunity whatsoever to look at how it is | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
working for the whole of th`t 11-year period. Particularlx at a | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
time when changes are taking place so rapidly. But we have said | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
explicitly in the White Papdr that it is a review to provide a health | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
check focussing on the governance and regulatory reforms of the | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
mid-term. We have also gone on to say that the review will not | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
consider changes to the fundamental mission, purposes and licence fee | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
model as these have been determined by the current charter revidw | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
process. So I make it clear again, this is a health check in order to | :28:34. | :28:36. | |
examine the way in which thd changes that we are putting in placd are | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
working but we do not antichpate that there should be any nedd to | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
reopen questions around the charter. I am happy to give way. Givdn the | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
criticisms that there has bden about the inefficiency and the value for | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
money provided by the BBC and the huge payouts, for example, for | :28:56. | :28:58. | |
people who are made redundant and then come back in nearly a xear | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
later, the National Union of Journalists has even critichsed them | :29:03. | :29:09. | |
for that. The high levels of pay at management level, if after five | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
years it is seen that there has been no reform and no changes in the | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
squandering of money by the BBC what would happen at the review `t that | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
stage? Would he reconsider the licence fee or would he put in | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
greater financial controls? No, I would say to the honourable | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
gentleman we are actually pttting in stronger financial controls now | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
because what we are doing is opening up the whole of the BBC for the | :29:35. | :29:40. | |
National Audit Office to ex`mine to look precisely at questions as | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
whether or not maximum valud for money is being obtained for the | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
licence fee pay -- licence fee payer. Not only will the National | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
Audit Office be able to carry out value for money studies as they have | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
been doing in some areas already, but the National Audit Office will | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
become the auditor of the BBC and the National Audit Office h`ve a | :30:02. | :30:04. | |
very good record of ensuring the public money is spent properly and | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
is not wasted. Whilst perhaps I am on that subject, let me turn to the | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
issue raised by the honourable lady about the extent - yes, I ghve way. | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
I thank the Secretary of St`te. I am wondering on the point of the health | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
check. Does the Secretary of State envisage this health check covering | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
whether or not progress is being made,ed a kwat progress being made | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
to allow access to independdnt producers as set out in the White | :30:33. | :30:40. | |
Paper -- adequate? We have set out a path which we hope will lead to the | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
whole of the BBC schedule bding opened up for commissioning and we | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
would expect the BBC to meet the targets in doing that. That is | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
something which we will continue to talk to the BBC about and wd | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
probably - if it looked as hf they were failing to meet that, that s | :31:00. | :31:02. | |
something we might raise about them before but that is already set out | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
in the charter. It wouldn't require any changes because we have already | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
made clear that we expect the BBC to open up on a gradual basis the whole | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
of the schedule until it re`ches 100%. I haven't forgotten the | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
honourable ladiy's point. I thank the Secretary of State for giving | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
way. Just on the area of independent producers, at the last debate we had | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
on the BBC I would like to thank the Minister of State for helping secure | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
the recordings for the Real McCoy and I hope to have a special | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
screening in parliament with some of the original cast in the not too | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
distant future and I hope you will both come along. I am delighted to | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
have given way to the honourable lady in order to allow her the | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
opportunity to praise my excellent Minister sitting beside me! I wanted | :31:53. | :31:59. | |
to come back to this point `bout the National Audit Office. And their | :32:00. | :32:02. | |
ability to carry value for loney studies right across the BBC's | :32:03. | :32:09. | |
activities. It is correct that the activities of BBC Worldwide are not | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
funded with public money. They are commercially funded. However, the | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
success of BBC Worldwide has a definite impact on the finances of | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
the BBC since it generates hncome for the BBC and it is important that | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
we extract maximum value in order to minimise the burden on the licence | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
fee payer. I have to say, as I mentioned when we debated this issue | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
yesterday in the Select Comlittee, BBC Worldwide have not alwaxs had a | :32:38. | :32:44. | |
brilliant record in terms of looking after the money that they spend The | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
Select Committee, when I was chairing it in the last parliament, | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
was highly critical of the lonely planet saga which resulted hn a | :32:55. | :33:01. | |
massive loss to the BBC Worldwide. However, I can reassure the | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
honourable lady and indeed the BBC that this is a matter which the | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
National Audit Office are vdry aware of the concerns that have bden | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
expressed and they are confhdent that they can provide reasstrance, | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
that it will have no impact, either on the creative decision-making of | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
the BBC, but also in terms of their commercial negotiations with other | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
companies. The National Audht Office already audit a number of ptblic | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
bodies that do have commerchal relationships with other colpanies. | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
They are well familiar with the need to maintain commercial | :33:38. | :33:38. | |
confidentialality, where th`t is necessary. | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
And I know that the controller and the auditor general will continue to | :33:45. | :33:54. | |
work with the BBC. The honotrable lady also talked about the BBC's | :33:55. | :34:02. | |
financial independence. As H said, I believe I have strengthened that | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
rather than diminished it. H think the licence fee should be stbject to | :34:09. | :34:11. | |
a review every five years and the first five-year period it should | :34:12. | :34:18. | |
rise in line with inflation. We have agreed to close the iPlayer loophole | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
and phase out the broadband top slice. The BBC can now plan the | :34:25. | :34:32. | |
licence fee income along with its own commercial earnings and it will | :34:33. | :34:42. | |
have total flexibility in tdrms of how it spends its money. I will | :34:43. | :34:49. | |
happily give way. The Secretary of State is outlining the freedom the | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
BBC will continue to have in terms of expenditure. One of the big | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
concerns the public have is in terms of transparency. Can I ask the | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
Secretary of State why was there the withdrawal from forcing the BBC to | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
publish the pay packages of presenters and the BBC when it was | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
originally going to be around 150,000, now it is up to a lassive | :35:15. | :35:21. | |
450,000. Why was that decishon taken to increase that level when most | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
embers of the public think ht was perfectly reasonable and was public | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
money that should be out thdre and transparent? I hear what thd | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
honourable gentleman says and I have some sympathy with him. This was a | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
matter which we debated with the BBC as to what was the appropri`te level | :35:37. | :35:44. | |
to set for publication. We set it at 450,000 after that debate whth the | :35:45. | :35:52. | |
BBC. As a first step. It will mean that those individuals who `re the | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
highest paid on the BBC payroll will now be identified, but I thhnk that | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
is an important step forward in transparency. I hope it is not the | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
end of the saga and I would in courage the BBC to go furthdr. The | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
BBC did express concerns about the consequences if they were rdquired | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
to publish the names of mord reveals of lower levels of pay. We will see | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
how this first step goes and I share the honourable gentleman's hope that | :36:23. | :36:28. | |
in due course we might see further publication. Might I suggest that | :36:29. | :36:35. | |
tweaking this downwards is something to be reviewed? I'm sure thdy will | :36:36. | :36:43. | |
have heard the pressure that is being put on the Government in order | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
to seek greater transparencx. I hope they will consider that. Is he | :36:49. | :36:57. | |
absolutely certain that nobody wishes to set this at a much lower | :36:58. | :37:04. | |
level? The people who didn't initially want it to be set at a | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
lower level was the BBC. Thd BBC did raise concerns about the potential | :37:10. | :37:12. | |
consequences. They for inst`nce talked about whether or not it might | :37:13. | :37:19. | |
result in poaching. Once people s salary levels are known and also it | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
was a concern that it might have the effect of bidding up salarids. I | :37:25. | :37:26. | |
don't think those concerns `re merited. We have taken a first step | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
towards greater transparencx and I hope that perhaps in due cotrse we | :37:33. | :37:44. | |
can go further. I would address the point made by the honourabld lady | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
about the contestable pot. Ht is a small amount of money, ?60 lillion | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
over three years which out of the total money available to thd BBC is | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
a very small amount. It does not affect the July settlement. We made | :37:57. | :37:59. | |
it absolutely clear that thd Government stands by the July | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
settlement and the funding of the contestable pot does not in any way | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
affect the July settlement. She raises the concerns of whether or | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
not it will fall within the requirements on state aid. H rather | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
hope that that will become `n academic issue in a few weeks' time. | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
If extraordinarily it still applies then that is something we whll need | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
to take into account. Madam Deputy Speaker, far from threatening the | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
BBC, the proposals in the White Paper, as my honourable fridnd said | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
earlier, have been welcomed. Lord Hall has said "This white p`per | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
delivers a mandate for the strong, creative BBC that the public believe | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
income eight BBC that will be good for the creative industries and most | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
importantly of all for Brit`in. The BBC trust chairman has, as H said | :38:51. | :38:53. | |
earlier, talked about the constructive engagement between the | :38:54. | :39:00. | |
BBC and the public which has delivered a White Paper | :39:01. | :39:06. | |
strengthening the BBC's govdrnance and regulation. The chair of the | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
producers's Alliance, Laura Mansfield, has said this is a | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
historic charter for the UK's entire production sector and recognises the | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
world leading creativity th`t British producers bring across every | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
level of production. This White Paper will give BBC commisshoners | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
the freedom to choose the bdst ideas wherever they come from, whhle | :39:30. | :39:38. | |
insuring either to deal supply and regionality is rightly protdcted. | :39:39. | :39:40. | |
The Right Honourable member for Tottenham was one of the first | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
people to celebrate the fact that diversity is for the first time | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
enshrined in the BBC charter. I of course give way. I thank Thd Right | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
Honourable gentleman for giving way. Just on diversity, does he `gree | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
with me that come itself max need to better reflect the obligation of the | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
United Kingdom, especially `s diversity becomes an ever-increasing | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
component of its regulatory requirement? The make up off of | :40:08. | :40:16. | |
come, the amount of people. At the moment their diversity figure that | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
the near management level are at about 6%. My honourable fridnd | :40:21. | :40:27. | |
raises a perfectly valid pohnt. Obviously offer comp is a ptblic | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
body and we would want to sdt an example in achieving divershty and | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
if its performance is below, that is something I know that my honourable | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
friend on the front bench and I would be happy to point out to the | :40:41. | :40:43. | |
chairman and the Chief Execttive. I'm happy to give way. Could he also | :40:44. | :40:50. | |
confirm whether or not one of the benefits for the BBC will bd that | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
they now have access to the database of Sky and other broadcasters so | :40:55. | :41:02. | |
that they can identify the names of relevant people... That is | :41:03. | :41:08. | |
something, we are looking at ways of enforcing the licence fee | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
requirement and obviously anyone who watches live television is required | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
to have a licence and those databases therefore do reprdsent | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
people who are required to have a television licence and that is | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
something we're looking at. I would add to my reply to my honourable | :41:26. | :41:28. | |
friend that whilst I would not in anyway suggest that she is not right | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
to be concerned, of course of Com did make a major step towards | :41:33. | :41:38. | |
greater diversity with the appointment of a female chidf | :41:39. | :41:44. | |
executive who is doing a fantastic job. -- Ofcom. I'm sure she would | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
agree that there is more th`t needs to be done. Just on the matter of | :41:48. | :41:54. | |
diversity and it's an important issue and we're making headway on | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
it, does he believe that designated, ring fenced funding might bd very | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
helpful in driving this divdrsity which is obviously close to many of | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
our hearts, as set out and suggested by many? Well, I mean... We accept | :42:07. | :42:19. | |
diversity is in the charter but how the BBC delivers that is a latter | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
for the BBC. Given that reqtirement, the BBC will have to state how it | :42:25. | :42:31. | |
does it and that will be subject to Ofcom scrutineers well. Mad`m | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
Speaker, the BBC reaches 340 million people around the world every week. | :42:39. | :42:46. | |
It is one of our strongest brands and an important source of | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
information, entertainment. Because the BBC has such a special place in | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
British life and is so valud by the British people and the rest of the | :42:54. | :42:56. | |
world feels the same way, the Government wants to secure hts | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
future and let it thrive in a media landscape that has changed beyond | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
recognition in the last dec`de. That is what the proposals in thhs White | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
Paper do. The original paper was since when an amendment has been | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
proposed... Tom Nichols. Madam Deputy Speaker, I welcome this | :43:15. | :43:23. | |
opportunity to speak about the BBC in the aftermath of the publication | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
of the Government's White P`per on charter renewal and the Secretary of | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
State appearance yesterday before the culture media and sport Select | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
Committee of which I'm a melber We on these benches are passionate | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
defenders of public service broadcasting and independent | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
journalism. It is thought throughout the charter renewal process the BBC | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
has engaged struck Tivoli -, constructively in the debatd about | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
how the BBC can be improved. At its best, the BBC is unsurpassed. Since | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
its foundation in 1922, the BBC s mission has been, as we all know, to | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
inform, to educate and to entertain. It forms one of the cornerstones of | :44:06. | :44:11. | |
all our national lives. In our homes daily it can be both an inthmate | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
friend or sometimes an infuriating relative, but we are proud of it at | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
its best, not least for its world-renowned reputation. @ny | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
organisation which is successful for such a period of time must `dapt. It | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
must be able to embrace changes in technology as well as changds in the | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
site in which it operates. Charter renewal allows the BBC and | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
Parliament to take stock and assess what the BBC is doing well `nd where | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
it needs to improve. For sole on the benches opposite and in the press | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
who dislike the BBC, the process holds out the opportunity to attack | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
the corporation's core functions, and indeed during a charter renewal | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
process we saw some wild notions floated. Am of course were newspaper | :44:59. | :45:07. | |
fabrications. -- some work fabrications. Others work the result | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
of kite flying. Ministers are able to float fanciful notions for | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
radical reform and assess them before the Secretary of State has | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
full horror and tells us th`t of course he had absolutely nothing | :45:22. | :45:24. | |
whatsoever to do with the ltdicrous and impractical proposals splashed | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
across the pages of the matter right wing tabloids all is up -- they | :45:29. | :45:39. | |
madder tabloids. Does he have any constructive criticisms for the BBC? | :45:40. | :45:46. | |
They are not unsurpassed in many ways. Maybe at their best, but their | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
best is not 90% of the time. I would like to thank The Right Honourable | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
gentleman for teeing up the rest of my speech. This is known as opening | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
paragraphs, where I say somdthing nice before heading further south | :46:00. | :46:02. | |
for a good kick where it is well-deserved! | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
LAUGHTER Sorry, mad and beauty Speakdr. I | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
believe the honourable membdr had just replied but I'm told hd did | :46:13. | :46:19. | |
not. -- sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker. He references the Government | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
creating some of the headlines in the right-wing press, as he put it, | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
can I ask him what the logic would be for doing so and then not | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
delivering to that end? It strikes me as very illogical. Madam Deputy | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
Speaker, I'm touched by the honourable gentleman's naivdte. Let | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
me explain the way it works. Politicians sometimes talk to | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
journalists. They say things that they don't want to be quoted as | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
saying. The journalists then report it. If it floats, the polithcian | :46:52. | :46:57. | |
then goes on the record. If it doesn't float, the politici`n backs | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
away from it. That's generally the way it works. I would be happy to | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
introduce him to journalists he might find helpful in this regard in | :47:06. | :47:08. | |
the coming months. In the end, and this is where I disagree to some | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
extent with the Labour shadow secretary, the White Paper hs a | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
relatively unambitious doculent I suspect this may well disappoint the | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
Secretary of State who many think may have wanted a more radical | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
legislative legacy. There are a number of welcome proposals in the | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
White Paper and I'm far frol a cheerleader for the BBC. Thd BBC | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
does many things which are good but the BBC also, and we discovdred this | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
in Scotland during the referendum which I will touch on later, does | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
many things which are less good We welcome the abolition of thd BBC's | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
trust and its replacement bx a unitary board. However, likd many | :47:48. | :47:50. | |
members of the house, I'm worried about the composition of thd new | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
board and its independence. How will nonexecutive members be chosen? Can | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
we be certain they will not be subject to party political pressure? | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
We have had worrying indicators already. The national portr`it | :48:04. | :48:06. | |
Gallery in London was recently looking for a new trustees. The | :48:07. | :48:12. | |
selection panel, in a blind disc, rejected all five of the | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
Government's preferred candhdates. The deck real estate then politely | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
dismissed the selection pandl in its entirety and appointed a new one | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
which pleased him rather more. I pressed him on this during his | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
appearance at the Select Colmittee yesterday, and he told me that the | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
panel had been dismissed because of a technicality. Although he had not | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
necessarily wanted to infludnce the election board, he did want them to | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
know who his preferred candhdates were. This is policy masquerading as | :48:44. | :48:44. | |
process. What would happen at the BBC I | :48:45. | :48:52. | |
asked? Would this happen at the BBC spes I havingly? It seemed obvious | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
from his reaction that it would Well, I don't want independdnt | :48:59. | :49:01. | |
selection panels for the BBC board to know who the Secretary of State's | :49:02. | :49:08. | |
preferred candidates are. I want the BBC board to be entirely independent | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
of Government. I am worried by the evidence that the Secretary of State | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
gave at our committee yesterday as anyone should be across all parties | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
in this House who cares abott the independence of the BBC. Yes. Would | :49:22. | :49:27. | |
he not see the other side of the coin which he is describing is that | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
the BBC, given the bias that exists within it and the fact that it will | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
be able to choose half of the members and the other half chosen by | :49:37. | :49:39. | |
the public appointments comlittee that the real Daning certifhcate | :49:40. | :49:45. | |
that the BBC will simply continue on its merry way choosing the board, | :49:46. | :49:51. | |
half the board from the people it most believes reflect the khnd of | :49:52. | :49:54. | |
BBC values, many of which pdople reject at the moment, whilst there | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
will be a diversity of people chosen by the public appointments board. | :50:00. | :50:02. | |
That's simply called editorhal independence. There should be board | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
members chosen by the BBC who are independent and not subject to | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
politicians' pressure. However, the ones who are non-executive lembers | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
should be entirely independdnt, as well and what worried me yesterday | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
about the Secretary of Statd's evidence was that he showed | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
willingness to apply political pressure on the non-executive board | :50:25. | :50:27. | |
members and that is something that everybody across the House should be | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
disturbed when they hear. I will take the Secretary of State. I am | :50:32. | :50:34. | |
grateful to the honourable gentleman. I am puzzled. Is he | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
suggesting that the Scottish Government should give up its right | :50:40. | :50:44. | |
to have a say over the appohntment of a non-executive director on the | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
BBC board? I am absolutely delighted for the Scottish Government to have | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
a say. My objection, however, is something different. My objdction is | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
for political pressure to bd put on the appointments, specifically and | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
mainly in the main board because obviously as we all know thd main | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
board with the number of melbers that it has will be enormously | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
powerful. In fact, the Secrdtary of State yesterday argued how different | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
this board would be from thd previous Trust. He said this board | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
will have real teeth. Therefore it is vital that we should havd fully | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
independent board members specifically the non-executhve ones | :51:26. | :51:27. | |
that the Government wishes to appoint. Yes. I thank the honourable | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
gentleman for giving way ag`in. I wonder what he thinks simplx whether | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
or not the new BBC board is more or less accountable and more or less | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
Democrat yak than the outgohng BBC -- democratic than the outgoing BBC | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
Trust? We don't know yet. That's precisely why I am addressing these | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
concerns in parliament todax because if the non-executive board lembers | :51:54. | :51:55. | |
are truly independent then of course it's a great thing. But the evidence | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
of the Secretary of State ydsterday was worrying for the reasons that I | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
have given. Now trust in thd BBC is after all crucial and it's no | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
secret, as my honourable frhends have mentioned, that many in | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
Scotland have been suspiciots of BBC objectivity in recent years. The | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
Secretary of State said a short while ago that a majority vdrdict in | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
Scotland, although he acknowledged a lesser number, were pleased with the | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
BBC. Let me give you the figure The figure from the BBC Trust itself. | :52:27. | :52:34. | |
The BBC enjoys only a 48% satisfaction rating in Scotland | :52:35. | :52:40. | |
Less than half for those who are numerically challenged. Somdtimes | :52:41. | :52:42. | |
criticisms of the BBC in Scotland have been fair. Sometimes criticisms | :52:43. | :52:47. | |
have not. But the BBC itself and the Secretary of State acknowledged this | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
has a problem in Scotland. So we welcome other proposals in the White | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
Paper. Licence services issted by the new regulator Ofcom will include | :52:57. | :53:00. | |
specific regulatory provision for all the nations. Out of London | :53:01. | :53:04. | |
quotas will be maintained which should enable a healthy inddpendent | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
production sector in the nations and regions. The BBC's network | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
television supply target will be 17% for content spending in the nations, | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
with spending proportionate to the population of each nation. Now this | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
suggests some progress in adapting the BBC to the changing needs of | :53:21. | :53:27. | |
these Islands in 2016 and bdyond. Of course, many of the changes required | :53:28. | :53:30. | |
must come from within the BBC itself. There are proposals for the | :53:31. | :53:37. | |
creation of a BBC Scotland board overseeing dedicated nation,specific | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
services. This would help ddvolve decision-making increasing the | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
likelihood of relevant and reflective content suited for | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
distinct audiences. We welcome the idea of a separate Scottish board as | :53:49. | :53:54. | |
proposed. We want to see a BBC that is editorially independent `nd well | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
resourced. A BBC that is bold and creative and, crucially, a BBC that | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
is representative of and delivers for both Scottish and UK audiences | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
as a whole. With a more responsive governance structure we belheve that | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
the BBC would be more nimbld and better able to address the concerns | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
of audiences. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. He whll be | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
aware that the Chancellor rdcently cut ?1 million without warnhng from | :54:25. | :54:31. | |
the budget of BBC Alba, the media service which flies in the face of | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
support in the White Paper. Does he agree this throws the Government's | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
motives more generally into question? I agree that this was most | :54:41. | :54:48. | |
disappointing because that's a fine product and is universally `dmired | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
across all parties in Scotl`nd. The Gaelic language is a struggling | :54:54. | :54:56. | |
language, part of our national culture. And every opportunhty that | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
we can have to enhance, embrace and support the Gaelic language, | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
especially on television, should be taken. Thank you. Does he not agree | :55:06. | :55:09. | |
that it's in all our interests that we have a board that reflects the | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
entirety of the society that we are in and to have a board that will be | :55:14. | :55:20. | |
filled and packed with leftx luvvies does his cause and my cause no good. | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
It would be right for the Mhnister at times to ensure there might be | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
someone centrist or maybe even slightly to the right on th`t board? | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
One thing the gentleman does himself down, perhaps in Northern Ireland he | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
is seen as a radical but here I have always seen him as a centrist | :55:37. | :55:44. | |
luvvie... LAUGHTER. I think, of coursd, that | :55:45. | :55:53. | |
the BBC should reflect the society in which we all live. We recently, | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
sorry the honourable gentlelan has mentioned deselection, I didn't mean | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
to be quite so wounding. I think, of course, as we all saw in our recent | :56:04. | :56:10. | |
debate about lesbian and gax representation, something I know the | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
honourable gentleman cares passionately about, I think that we | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
are keen to see more equal representation at all levels in the | :56:20. | :56:22. | |
BBC, from presenters to man`gement and of course on the new bo`rd. Now | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
combined with greater financial commissioning and editorial control | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
we believe that the BBC in Scotland can provide relevant, reflective | :56:32. | :56:34. | |
programming and support our nations' creative industries. We belheve that | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
bringing the BBC closer to viewers and listener in Scotland is the best | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
way of ensuring that trust hn and satisfaction with the BBC and making | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
sure that it is rebuilt and retained. Now let me turn to the | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
issue of news provision in Scotland. I think this lies at the he`rt of | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
the problem of trust for thd BBC in Scotland. Some members of the House | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
may know I spent much of my previous career in television news and | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
current affairs. I reported for Pan ram in a and Newsnight and presented | :57:09. | :57:15. | |
BBC breakfast and ITV News ,- Pan ram in a. I am passionate about | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
editorially independent news. I speak as a friend, albeit a critical | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
one, when I say I do not thhnk the BBC covered itself in glory during | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
our referendum on independence. The model for coverage was wrong. The | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
BBC treated a binary choice as though it was a traditional | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
election. And proponents of the status quo were subjected to much | :57:41. | :57:46. | |
less scrutiny than those who wanted constitutional change. Isn't this | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
really simply the fact that the BBC had the gross audacity to point out | :57:52. | :57:58. | |
that an economic plan based on 100 a barrel was, frankly, nonsdnse | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
That's a soundbite. That's not an answer to the arguments that I was | :58:03. | :58:09. | |
putting forward. So, let me repeat it again. The problem was that the | :58:10. | :58:15. | |
BBC treated the referendum coverage, not as a binary choice, but as a | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
traditional election. The BBC recognises that it made a mhstake in | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
that. Let me tell you how the BBC recognises that. The BBC on the one | :58:25. | :58:30. | |
hand says we make no mistakds whatsoever in our coverage of the | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
referendum. But then simult`neously the BBC says, we must learn the | :58:35. | :58:38. | |
lessons from the Scottish rdferendum in the way that we covered the | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
European referendum and thex tell me now that's what they've dond in the | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
current coverage. You cannot say you made no mistakes in covering the | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
Scottish referendum, and sax simultaneously that you will learn | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
mistakes from it. It is intellectually incoherent. H thank | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
the member for raising this point. I think he is absolutely right on this | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
matter. It goes to the heart of where the BBC is actually critically | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
wrong. Because that coveragd could have determined the outcome of the | :59:06. | :59:10. | |
electoral process. It happened in our country in 1998 when Alhstair | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
Campbell flew to Belfast and said he could rely on his friends in the BBC | :59:16. | :59:21. | |
and the press to do the job of the Government for him. And why the | :59:22. | :59:24. | |
Government has lost credibility Why today it stands in a shamblds in | :59:25. | :59:27. | |
Northern Ireland. There is `greement the BBC didn't do well in Scotland | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
during the referendum. The corporation looked stretched and | :59:33. | :59:35. | |
dated and there were fresh calls for what became known as the Scottish | :59:36. | :59:40. | |
six. Now at the moment in Scotland the evening news on TV cannot cover | :59:41. | :59:49. | |
any news item with Scotland. Armageddon in Carlisle, well the BBC | :59:50. | :59:53. | |
Scotland coverage will lead on an air show. Now that's not thd fault | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
of the journalists and I soletimes get e-mails from people sayhng | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
they're upset when I say thhs. Let me make that clear, that's not the | :00:01. | :00:05. | |
fault of the journalists. It's the fault of the remit. It leads to | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
entrenched provincealism. The BBC has been piloting a new grown-up | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
programme which would cover news based on merit. It would have a | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
normal remit. If the main story is a UK one, that will lead the news If | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
American, that will lead thd news. If Scottish, that will lead the | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
news. BBC Radio Scotland has done this for decades. BBC Alaba has done | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
this for a number of years. I am interested in the argument that he | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
is making. Most people don't think the BBC is biased. However, could he | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
give an example of where he has a grievance on a particular story | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
which was biased and we can perhaps look into it and judge it on its | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
merits. Just an example. Ond example. Well, it's not a qtestion | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
of one example. It was a qudstion of the ongoing nature of the coverage | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
during the referendum. That was the problem as I have tried to dxplain. | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
The problem was an ongoing problem. But at the end of the day you don't | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
have to take my word for thhs. The fact that the BBC's approval ratings | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
are so low in Scotland obviously shows that there is a probldm. There | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
is no point looking at figures that show 52% of people believe that the | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
BBC doesn't cover the country well and then say it is just the SNP | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
making a big fuss about it. It's a deeply entrenched and a problem in | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
Scotland and as somebody who loves independent journalism who H hope | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
has made it clear in my earlier comments about the independdnce of | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
the BBC, I hope that you will take me at face value when I say I want | :01:46. | :01:54. | |
to see an editorially indepdndent BBC Scotland and indeed BBC network. | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
Do you mind if I proceed for a moment? There have been rumours of | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
political interference eman`ting recently on the subject of the | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
Scottish six from worried BBC staffers. Let me remind the | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
Secretary of State about our chats on the subject over the past few | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
months. Now charmingly, if candidly, he said yesterday at the Select | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
Committee that he was, quotd, not qualified to judge the BBC's output | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
in Scotland for the or -- or the reasons for its unpopularitx. On | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
that we are agreed. He is not qualified. In March, however, he | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
told me in this chamber, th`t he agreed that increased investment and | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
employment at BBC Scotland would be beneficial. Quote, I obviously | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
welcome any investment at the BBC that will create additional jobs, | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
especially in Scotland, he said On that occasion when I asked `bout the | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
separate Scottish six, the Secretary of State assured me that it was a | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
matter for the BBC and neither he nor his colleagues at 10 Downing | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
Street would want to interfdre. I hope he recalls his comments and he | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
nods to say that he does. However, yesterday when I pressed hil three | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
times at the Select Committde on whether he had been talking to BBC | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
bosses about the issue six or trying to -- influence them his body | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
language looked uncomfortable and eventually he conceded something | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
different. He told me that he might have concerns if he felt th`t the | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
central place of the BBC in providing a nation-wide news | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
bulletin was being changed. He added, the BBC has a responsibility | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
to bring the nation together and and news is part of that. | :03:42. | :04:04. | |
That is what has caused all the distrust in Scotland. The job of the | :04:05. | :04:12. | |
BBC is to be editorially and journalistically independent. The | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
Secretary of State should bd playing no role whatsoever in trying to | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
influence or block a separate Scottish six. He himself st`ted | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
several times that it should be a matter for the BBC and he w`s not | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
qualified to judge because he was not thoroughly with the BBC's output | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
in Scotland. Such interference would undermine the statements made in the | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
White Paper regarding restoring confidence there. It would show a | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
blatant this regard and lack of respect for the constituent nations | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
of the UK including the devolved administrations, who partichpated | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
fully in the charter renewal process and in good faith. Furthermore, it | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
would undermine the plans which the BBC is intent on implementing. So | :04:59. | :05:05. | |
there we have it, Madam Deptty Speaker. A White Paper with which we | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
broadly agree but worrying signs that the Government wants to Tampa. | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
To tamper with the editorial independence of the BBC in Scotland | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
and to tamper with the political independence of the proposed new BBC | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
board in London. We on thesd benches will resist both, just as wd will | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
fight any upcoming moves to privatise Channel 4. With Mr | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
Speaker's permission, I am now heading to the Select Committee to | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
hear Channel 4's annual report and to offer them some moral support. | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
Interference in the decision-making of the BBC by the Government would | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
give the independence of thd BBC, a key feature of the organisation | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
into jeopardy, tarnishing its reliability and its reputathon. | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
Order. There are eight membdrs wishing to speak in this debate | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
We're hoping to finish at about 4:30pm. If everyone sticks to about | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
ten minutes, we should come in in perfect time. Thank you, Madam | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
Deputy Speaker. I should also declare, as the honourable lember | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
who preceded me just mentioned, I spent five of the happiest xears at | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
the BBC and I have the same any of the people I worked with thdre were | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
some of the finest professionals I've worked with anywhere in that | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
regard. Many existed on verx low salaries very much in contr`st to | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
the supposed talent that so often fills our pages. And that is not a | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
moan about my own salary of course! One of the main duties of any | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
Government is the maintenance of our country's most important | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
institutions and the BBC is undoubtedly one of these. Mhllions | :06:51. | :06:52. | |
of people enjoy its output dvery year. For me though, this doesn t | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
mean keeping them flush with public money and shielding them from | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
change, but fighting for reforms that ensure their long-term | :07:03. | :07:04. | |
sustainability and relevancd to modern world. While this produces | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
many excellent programmes as an important part of the UK's | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
extraordinary global influence, it's becoming increasingly appardnt | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
except perhaps to the corporation's most highly paid stars, that the BBC | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
must change further. Its broadcasting model, based on the | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
ideal of millions of familids watching live broadcasts, is | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
increasingly becoming outdated. In some cases it smothers independent | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
local journalism in the process It is levying what is one of the BBC's | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
-- the country's most regressive taxes, the licence fee. The charter | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
offers some very important things, to refocus the corporation on the | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
core functions which justifx its present place as a state funded | :07:55. | :08:01. | |
broadcaster, and, I trust, to wean it off the licence fee gradtally | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
over the longer term and to open itself up to the calming winds of | :08:05. | :08:12. | |
competition and outside production. When I was setting out on mx career, | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
and many journalists that wdre around me, got their first jobs at | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
thriving local newspapers which provided British journalism with a | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
natural talent scouting system which benefited all of us, includhng the | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
BBC. The BBC was never meant to compete with newspapers yet today | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
the BBC News website underctts a lot of local and national journ`lism. | :08:38. | :08:45. | |
Journalists provide an important public service. Can the BBC have | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
journalists everywhere? Of course not. The BBC concentrate jobs | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
seemingly now in London and Manchester. Even major citids suffer | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
the consequences. In my expdrience for example in BBC Birmingh`m, we | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
are all too often not even treated as the tender relic, we're not even | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
allowed frankly to sweep thd floor when it comes to BBC largess and I | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
really do applaud the campahgn that is in the Birmingham Post m`il | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
trying to get a fairer deal for our region in that regard. When the move | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
was made to Manchester, it was said that this would be increasing | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
regional diversity. But I think that actually in some respects the | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
corporation is seen as it w`s in the beginning and end of the process. | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
Really in many respects the biggest thing they've actually done is | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
increased house prices in ldafy Cheshire suburbs rather than actual | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
genuine regional diversity. What we're seeing now created... I thank | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
the honourable member for ghving way. As a Greater Manchester MPI do | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
feel that the move of the BBC to Salford, not Manchester, had | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
actually done a lot to improve the diversity of the BBC and it is nice | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
to hear a lot of northern accidents on the radio these days, whhch | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
didn't used to happen in thd past. Thank you. But what has acttally | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
happened in that regard is that we've created a bipolar | :10:17. | :10:18. | |
Organisation. There has been a move from other regions like Birlingham | :10:19. | :10:26. | |
to these two centres. That was the natural consequence of the huge sums | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
that were invested. I'm not going to be just in terms of Salford, | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
obviously it is fantastic in terms of that community, however, there | :10:36. | :10:38. | |
were reports in terms of thd actual number of local people that were | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
employed when the BBC initi`lly set up there was not very satisfactory | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
in that respect. However, I do think what has happened is that they think | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
almost the case is done in that regard when they came up with this | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
process. What I would reallx like to see is a genuine diversity `nd that | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
can also include the role of nations, as discussed in thd White | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
Paper, but for the Miss reghons in that respect, so we can really see | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
the BBC drilling down into local communities to deliver news and | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
content that actually makes a difference but supports, but | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
supports, private-sector. Ctrrent proposals for the BBC to usd local | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
newspaper content such as court circulars and court documents are | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
better than nothing, court reporting. But it is a bit of a sad | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
indictment that effectively some local newspapers are going to be | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
frankly wire services for the BBC News website. Previous governments I | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
think were rather flat-footdd in updating its charter to the online | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
age and slow to recognise the dangers of the growth of jotrnalism | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
and regional diversity. Another thing holding the BBC back over the | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
long-term is, I believe, thd licence fee. This might seem strangd given | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
the ferocity with which the BBC supporters have fought to ddfend it, | :11:59. | :12:05. | |
but I believe is doing more to. . My wife and I grew up in an er` of mass | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
broadcasts and TV specials watched by number of millions but the number | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
of times we watch TV togethdr a month these days can be counted | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
frankly on the fingers of one hand and that's not just due to the work | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
done in this place, but it hs genuinely something accountdd by | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
many people around the country. To younger people raised in thd days of | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
On Demand, Netflix and you chewed, that it is not even a memorx. Yet | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
the BBC remains committed to the regressive tax in terms of the | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
licence fee. If you were to arrive at the licence fee today, how could | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
you actually justify it? It's a flat levy, the same for rich and poor | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
alike, charged to anybody w`tching programming whether or not they | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
consume BBC services and backed by the threat of criminal prosdcution. | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
It really doesn't have any place in the broadcasting model for the | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
21st-century. We must not bd reckless with the BBC... With the | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
honourable member not recognise that the BBC is the envy of countries the | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
world over. In Australia whdre I'm from, the ABC for example, ht's | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
public service broadcasting that is important here... In Australia the | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
ABC is funded largely by Government. It has experienced cut after cut of | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
the cut in its budgeting ovdr those years and it has suffered as a | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
result. Apparently though it is not so universally regarded in Scotland, | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
according to the honourable gentleman's previous beach hn that | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
regard. We must not be reckless with the BBC, as I said earlier on. I | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
think it would be an act of vandalism to simply turn off the tap | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
without giving it time to transition to a new way of doing things. But | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
the message from this chartdr must be loud and clear. They need to move | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
on. I hope the licence fee's days are numbered. BBC managers now | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
demand a higher fee extended to the website and criminal prosecttion, | :14:06. | :14:08. | |
must acknowledge this. As for the mid-term review I think this is a | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
sensible health check to sed it is moving in the right direction. I do | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
hope as well this does encolpass independent reduction and the BBC's | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
move towards independent production. That is ultimately the only way in | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
which it's going to be able to move and wean itself off the licdnce fee. | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
The white paper, Madam Deputy Speaker, contains some promhsing | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
steps in the right direction. For example the opening up of more | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
production contracts to inddpendent companies are allowing them to | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
compete for funding. But thdre must be clear targets for such | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
diversification, so that BBC managers can be held to account and | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
ensure they are making adeqtate progress. They must also make sure | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
that the BBC is proactive in finding fairer and more imaginative ways of | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
funding its services. Many of its assets are not poor to its public | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
service function and could dasily be made subscription services. I | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
welcome, as do many members of this house, the initiative to brhng in | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
the National Audit Office when it comes to the BBC's activitids. I | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
credit the Right Honourable gentleman and pay respect for his | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
experience in this area. If he's looking for a logic in the structure | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
of the BBC, he's going to bd disappointed. The BBC is above that. | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
It is an utterly unique institution, there is no similar corporate | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
structure anywhere and we h`ve a system here which, on paper, seems | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
bizarre, but I haven't done it works! Can we not just glorx in this | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
special, unique, and I say British BBC? The honourable gentlem`n has | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
now secured his place on BBC News 24 paper review for the next these of | :15:49. | :15:56. | |
course! In view of the honotrable gentleman earlier, if there is a | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
place for a lefty luvvie on the board, I am one of those thhngs You | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
can expect the headhunters to call shortly! If the audience and quality | :16:10. | :16:18. | |
programme are both there, they will survive and thrive. If not, why are | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
we expecting the poorest to pay for them? A fair and flexible ftnding | :16:23. | :16:33. | |
model... I the core functions of problem service broadcasting are | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
good for the BBC as well. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I havd deep | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
concerns about the White Paper. Last month the Secretary of Statd for | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
culture media and sport published his long-awaited White Paper which | :16:49. | :16:55. | |
we've all seen. On the BBC's charter renewal. In response to the | :16:56. | :17:03. | |
overwhelming response from the public, the honourable membdr the | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
Secretary of State has climbed down from some of his most radic`l | :17:07. | :17:09. | |
proposals. Strictly Come Dancing will no longer be banned and the BBC | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
will no longer be forced to sell off its highly profitable stake in UK | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
TV. The powerful unitary bo`rd will no longer be pact with Government | :17:22. | :17:28. | |
appointees. The way this has been handled suggests that these | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
suggestions were either leaked to gauge public opinion on the | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
Secretary of State's long hdld intentions against the BBC ought to | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
make his proposals seem paltry by comparison. Whatever his intention, | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
he has laid bare his fundamdntal bits like of the BBC and wh`t it | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
stands for. I do welcome in the White Paper the publication of | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
salaries above ?450,000. However, I do question why there is a threshold | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
of ?150,000 where people ardn't going to be named, yet as MPs and in | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
public life we talk about that figure and below as being a figure | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
that should be put into the public realm. Why the figure of ?440,0 0? | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
To my constituents, people hn the broadcasting industry on ?300,0 0, | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
that is a considerable amount of money. I agree that closing the | :18:20. | :18:27. | |
iPlayer loophole is important. We are seeing a transformation in the | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
broadcasting delivery, the way that broadcasting TV is delivered. It is | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
important that the Government in this country keeps up-to-date with | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
those changes. I also welcole the increase in the funding for the | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
World Service. I think this is long overdue all-star after the hssues we | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
had around the World Servicd a view years ago where there were changes | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
to the World Service and reductions, moving it from the office do the BBC | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
which was effectively a redtction in the BBC budget and also had | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
consequences for the delivery, which I believe some of those havd seen a | :19:02. | :19:03. | |
U-turn. I welcome the 11 years for the | :19:04. | :19:11. | |
renewal instead of ten. If the Government collapses or if we have a | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
general election outside of the five years circle will that aspiration be | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
lost and what mechanism can be put in to ensure that the fundalental | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
principle of this being non-political as he says, that the | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
cycle of the charter renewal falls after a general election, should | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
general elections not fall hn five-year circles? I want to say | :19:34. | :19:41. | |
further, it is my opinion that there are significant proposals - problems | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
within the Government's proposals. These persist, despite the Secretary | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
of State's apparent U-turns in the last few weeks. Problems whhch could | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
have a significant impact on the BBC's independence, remit and | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
purpose. Part of what makes the BBC such a fundamental cornerstone of | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
our democracy is its independence from politics, unlike other media | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
corporations it is a public service accountable to the public and | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
because it is beholden to all of us it can hold to account thosd in | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
power. The UK public and, more importantly, internationallx it is | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
respected for its impartialhty. The Government's proposals for ` new BBC | :20:28. | :20:35. | |
unitay board threaten to undermine this impartiality, although the | :20:36. | :20:43. | |
Secretary of State was thwtd did efforts to appoint a majority of | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
board members. Given that the new board will have far greater powers | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
than the current BBC Trust, since appointees will make operathonal and | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
strategic decisions which whll determine the BBC's future, his | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
proposals constitute a worrxing attack on the organisation's | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
impartiality. Given than thd Secretary of State has described the | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
BBC's abolition as a tempting prospect, it is hardly surprising | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
that 62% of over 60s admittdd to having no confidence in the | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
Government to protect the BBC during its charter renewal. Indeed, their | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
concerns are entirely jufed. Before he set sights on the BBC thd | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
Secretary of State intervendd in the National Portrait Gallery's | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
recruitment process and people have a right to be concerned abott his | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
track record. He's got a tr`ck record and form on interferdnce | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
after his preferred candidates were not shortlisted and he decided to | :21:47. | :21:54. | |
rerun the selection process. Such a willingness to intervene is | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
undoubtedly a frightening precedent for the appointments procedtre of | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
the new BBC board. Equally worrying, is the Government's insistence on a | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
five-year review of the charter and a health check he says, and the | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
encouragement of commercial rivals to bid for licence fee monex. Whilst | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
the former will prevent the BBC from carrying out long-term planning the | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
encouragement of the commercial rivals to bid for licence fde money | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
will accelerate the erosion of the organisation's financial | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
independence, taking money `way from the BBC undermines its abilhty to | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
deliver services. We have sden a worrying reduction or changds to BBC | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
online, a reduction to BBC radio, a reduction. And a worrying threat, a | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
sword of Damacles that seems to hang over BBC 24. Going to the fhve-year | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
health check, the Secretary of State talks about this health check being | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
mid-term and he not interfering No matter what promises he makds, he | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
cannot escape that the five,year health check is an intr vention It | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
is a dialogue between the Government and the BBC. What is the pohnt of | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
this review, this health chdck, if the Government has no powers within | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
it? An ability to change thd BBC should the health check show failing | :23:24. | :23:31. | |
health, in my opinion, this is a political tool of the Government. | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
Measures such as these are completely at odds with the wider | :23:37. | :23:43. | |
public opinion and threatens to damage the UK's influence abroad | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
through the BBC. 97% of the population use the BBC for `round 18 | :23:48. | :23:55. | |
hours a week. It is popular. 76 of people think the BBC delivers value | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
for money. Yet despite this the Secretary of State wants to | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
transform the BBC's entire lission under the banner of distinctiveness | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
and here I worry. Although he himself could not provide any | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
definition of distinctiveness to the Select Committee, I don't think the | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
public will be fooled into believing that this represents anything other | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
than an attempt to marginalhse the BBC in favour of its commercial | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
competitors. The requirement of a so-called distinctive content | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
overseen by the commercial regulator Ofcom will inevitably underline the | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
BBC by restricting its popularity. It will push popular progralmes off | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
peak time slots and the problem will be that less popular shows will then | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
harm the BBC's excellent vidwing figures and reputation. This in turn | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
will enable a future Governlent to push an agenda of further ctts and | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
reforms with the Government having set the BBC up to fail. Looking at | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
some of the other reforms. Cash grabs. Such as the Chancellor's | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
transfer of over 75 licensing costs from the DWP to the BBC and efforts | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
to ex-punning BBC services `s we saw in the Government's attempt to | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
remove online recipes will become commonplace and further dam`ge the | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
BBC's reputation -- expunge. The result will be a BBC lacking in | :25:30. | :25:36. | |
impartiality, financial autonomy, independence and with its rdputation | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
for quality broadcasting undermined. An immense amount of public pressure | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
forced the Secretary of State to step away from some of the `ttacks | :25:46. | :25:52. | |
on the BBC's online recipes, some of its better broadcasting, Strictly | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
and The Great British Bake Off. This is on top of Government previous | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
attacks on the excellent BBC online services, BBC's local and | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
international radio content, amongst other attacks. There are other | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
issues outside the White Paper that are not being addressed such as the | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
charges that the BBC are having to face to pay for delivery vi` | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
satellite. This incurse a cost on the BBC that ought to be addressed. | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
-- incurs. I believe the prdssure on the Secretary of State maus be - | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
mus be maintained to protect the BBC and the public interests to make him | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
withdraw the attacks on the BBC s independence and to uphold the great | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
virtues of the BBC that hold it in the highest esteem, not onlx in the | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
UK but around the world. Th`nk you. Thank you, it's a pleasure to follow | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
the honourable member. It's also a pleasure to be able to speak in this | :26:46. | :26:52. | |
debate about the BBC's future and with that in mind and I -- can I | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
thank the honourable member for giving us this opportunity to do so. | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
She's right when she mentioned that the BBC is revered and a trtsted | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
national institution which we should view with great pride. I certainly | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
do so from these benches. Indeed we should also be minded that the BBC | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
costs its licence fee payers just 40p a day. That is the same price I | :27:16. | :27:22. | |
believe as The Sun and I will perhaps leave the analogy there I | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
would also maintain the BBC is important, particularly following | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
this Government's commitment to improved social mobility. The fact | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
that for all, particularly children growing up, particularly chhldren | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
growing up from the poorest of back grounds, they have the abilhty to | :27:39. | :27:41. | |
access the BBC should not bd forgotten in terms of what was it | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
can do for their social mobhlity. I speak I hope with some example, | :27:47. | :27:54. | |
having failed my 12 plus and gone on to study O 11s at a college where | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
there was independence for le. Had it not been for the BBC and what it | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
did in terms of filling in some of the years for me I don't believe I | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
would be in this place, which may be a reason to speak against the BBC | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
for some. I was very proud to be one of the 190,000 members of the public | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
who filled in the consultathon document and I believe the charter | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
renewal that the Government has set forward fits about right with the | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
document that I completed. During the process I engaged with the BBC | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
because I wanted to do everxthing I could to support the BBC, h`ving | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
been elected 12 months ago H made this my cause that I wanted to come | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
in and speak so highly for `n institution that I believe has done | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
so much for me over the years. I was also delighted to seek and obtain | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
the reassurances from the Sdcretary of State that everything thhs | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
Government plans to do was to strengthen the BBC. To that end | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
whilst I am aware the Government's put its own motion in, want to focus | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
on the three key areas that the opposition motion focuses on. The | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
first is the view that the White Paper charter renewal fails to | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
provide an acceptable basis for charter renewal. I just belheve that | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
is not correct when looking at the White Paper as a whole. What we have | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
here is a charter that's renewed for an 11-year period. This is outside | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
the election cycle. I note that the honourable member for East | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
Dunbartonshire is not in his seat, but it struck me listening to him | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
and his views that the BBC showed some form of bias towards the | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
referendum result, over the years it's always struck me that the party | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
that loses an election or in this instance loses a referendum | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
argument, tends to turn arotnd and bash the BBC for letting it down and | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
not giving it a proper crack. I believe that the bulk of our | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
constituents would put that down to something a sore loser and H don't | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
think it does this place much favour when those attacks are maintained. I | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
would also - I will give wax. I am interested to hear the honotrable | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
member speaking that way because there's been much mention m`de of | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
lefty luvvies within the BBC and I wonder after your own electhon | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
result would you would make that point? I think again the pohnt, | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
firstly, I won my election result, so I am delighted with the BBC in | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
that particular extent. But the point I make is a serious one. I | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
just think it speaks ill of us in this place if we attack the BBC from | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
all sides. Again one of the things that I have observed over the years | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
is when both parties seeking election attack the BBC, maxbe | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
they're getting it just abott right. The other thing I should mention is | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
that I was fortunate the dax the White Paper was published to speak | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
at a media society event in favour of the BBC and about the Whhte | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
Paper. The head of BBC policy was also at that debate. He was asked | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
how many marks out of ten hd would give this White Paper chartdr | :30:55. | :30:56. | |
renewal in terms of support for the BBC. He gave it eight out of ten. | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
80%, as any of us will show, would give you a first-class if wd were | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
sitting exams. On that basis this would suggest the BBC themsdlves are | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
happy with what is being negotiated and I would applaud them for having | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
done a great job as a result. The second element that's mentioned is | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
the threat that the White P`per poses to editorial and financial | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
independence. Again I don't believe this stacks up with the content of | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
the White Paper. For the first time the BBC will be able to appoint to | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
the board. Indeed, if the chairman opts for a board of 14, it will | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
appoint the majority of the board. The editorial independence hs | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
governed because it's given to the director general. It gives that | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
separation which to me is wdlcome. In terms of the financial | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
independence, we are seeing a funding commitment for five years. | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
This is an increase in real terms which the BBC has been lackhng for | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
some years. Again I absolutdly welcome that and I know the BBC do, | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
solicitor. Again, having thd National Audit Office in pl`ce and | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
Ofcom gives a certain degred of independence to allow the BBC to | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
better spend its money and `lso to be better regulated. Again, I would | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
this have thought all honourable members across this House would | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
welcome that. The third elelent is with respect to the expresshng of | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
concern about the rewriting of the BBC's founding mission statdment. Of | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
course, the BBC's duty is to educate, inform and entertahn. With | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
an additional requirement that its output should be distinctivd | :32:29. | :32:30. | |
otherwise it shouldn't be shown on the BBC. Now I recognise th`t this | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
is the end of any repeats of my speeches to this House, as well as | :32:37. | :32:39. | |
perhaps certain BBC cookery material, but I don't believe the | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
BBC should have anything to fear from addition of the word | :32:45. | :32:47. | |
distinctive. Originality is what the BBC does best and it does | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
consistently. Indeed if one looks at the BBC output now compared to some | :32:53. | :32:59. | |
years back, you find a lack of derivtive formats and imports. If | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
this means the lack of The Voice then I personally would welcome it. | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
I would however like to mention a few points that I would seek the | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
Minister from the front benches confirmation. The first is with | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
respect to the health check which is stated at page 54 of the Whhte | :33:16. | :33:22. | |
Paper. Of course, yes. Just to take him back one sentence. On the | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
distinctiveness. What would his opinion be in distinctiveness in the | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
provision of sport? It's not distinctive? Should the BBC not | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
provide sport then? I am interested in his view on that. | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
Thank you. In this sense I will come to the | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
point because distinctiveness was one of my asks of the Minister. | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
Absolutely right to mention it, whether certain matters produced | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
when sport is being shown, hf one takes a distinctive approach it can | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
end up being an unpopular approach that no one wants to watch. If | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
watching football on TV is panning away from the pitch and doing | :34:01. | :34:03. | |
something distinct then I don't want to watch that. I don't belidve | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
that's what will be interprdted There has to be a common sense way | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
of interpreting it. Perhaps I can give another example where ht causes | :34:12. | :34:12. | |
me more concern. That is with respect to the output | :34:13. | :34:23. | |
of radio one. I recognise that someone of my age should not be | :34:24. | :34:31. | |
listening to Radio 1, but I do. In my view it provides a distinctive | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
mix, music that is in the chart and also mix being aired for thd first | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
time which no other commerchal producer will play which thdn goes | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
into the charts. To expect the BBC to be distinctive and have nothing | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
but new music, I expect listeners won't turn in at all and thdn that | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
new music will never make it through to the mainstream. We have to be | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
very careful with the definhtion of distinctiveness. Its output should | :34:58. | :35:04. | |
be original and excellence. I recognise the Secretary of State is | :35:05. | :35:15. | |
more of a fan of Motorhead, but I hope we don't start hearing | :35:16. | :35:17. | |
Motorhead Radio. It makes absolute sense that five | :35:18. | :35:28. | |
years in there is an opporttnity to ensure that this charter renewal | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
works and if it doesn't it can be changed. I'll so agree that if it is | :35:32. | :35:40. | |
worded too widely, it could be a concern and I think the devhl will | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
be in the detail. I was intdrested in the speeches from the opposition | :35:44. | :35:46. | |
that assume there will be a Conservative Government in place at | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
that particular point, which I obviously hope very much will be the | :35:50. | :35:56. | |
case. I did make the point that the 11 year charter renewal is... The | :35:57. | :36:03. | |
principle was for it to comd after a general election because of course | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
the Government may collapse. You did indeed and I should correct myself | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
on that basis. Perhaps we c`n agree by saying who knows what thd future | :36:13. | :36:15. | |
will bring, therefore it's absolutely essential that the | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
five-year health check is worded in a tight manner to ensure th`t the | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
BBC will continue to be the BBC that I believe this charter will deliver, | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
certainly for the first fivd years. The other reassurance I seek is with | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
respect to the make-up of the board. We may find ourselves with `n | :36:36. | :36:38. | |
interesting concept, where we have appointments, six from the | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
Government process, albeit H feel we should all member that thesd should | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
be in accordance with the Nolan principles on Public appointments. | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
Some of the points on bias H just don't buy it at all. Nonethdless I'm | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
conscious that there will also be appointments perhaps kept from the | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
BBC themselves and I think ht's essential that that board h`s one | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
culture and operates as one, notwithstanding that there `re two | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
different mechanisms for appointment. The fourth point I want | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
to make is a concern with rdspect to the diversity targets that have been | :37:13. | :37:18. | |
set up. -- set out. I was ddlighted to have a BBC breakfast yesterday | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
with the team at the BBC looking to promote their diversity figtres I | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
absolutely applaud those very diverse figures to ensure that the | :37:27. | :37:33. | |
output reflects the society we live in. But those figures are albitious | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
and have to be delivered by 202 and the key for me is that the BBC don't | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
lose their excellence in so doing. It's absolutely essential that the | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
best people are put into those jobs on the basis of merit and I think | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
that is a huge concern for le. Madam Deputy Speaker, I will end by | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
welcoming the White Paper. H believe this strengthens the BBC, it gives | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
it integrity, it gives it mtch of its independence back that ht may | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
have lost over the years, it funds it properly and I very much welcome | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
the Government's and mended notion and I will be looking to support it. | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
I apologise for this but thdre has been a slight change in the | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
business. There will be a btsiness statement after this debate, so if | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
we stick to seven or eight linutes then everyone will get in bdfore the | :38:22. | :38:28. | |
vote. Thank you very much, Ladam Deputy Speaker. I'm very pldased to | :38:29. | :38:31. | |
have the opportunity to spe`k in the debate and some of what I'm going to | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
say reflects the fact that H chaired the all-party group for the NUJ and | :38:36. | :38:45. | |
the financial support for that is in the registered members's interests | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
launched under my name. Honourable members on outside of the house have | :38:49. | :38:55. | |
agreed that the BBC is a fantastic organisation and it is a fantastic | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
organisation for us as a cotntry because of the exceptionallx high | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
quality and variety of its output. It is a fantastic organisathon | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
internationally. On the international front, I do think the | :39:11. | :39:17. | |
fact that it is listened and watched by 350 million people every year is | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
a quite remarkable tribute to the quality of the journalism. @nd I | :39:24. | :39:29. | |
think we've really got to focus on maintaining and supporting the BBC | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
in this very lively, vibrant, changing media world. And this goes | :39:34. | :39:40. | |
back a long way, of course. My mother is Danish and in the middle | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
of the Second World War it was to the BBC that they were turnhng when | :39:46. | :39:48. | |
they wanted to find out the truth and what was going on. And to hear | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
some news that they could rdly on. And it's really important that we | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
continue to invest in the khnd of journalism that is providing this | :40:02. | :40:04. | |
kind of reliability for people across the globe in places where | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
they don't have a free medi` and a free press. For us at home, as the | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
honourable gentleman has sahd, the range of things that the BBC | :40:15. | :40:17. | |
produces, whether it's music and music festivals, whether it is the | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
contribution to the creativd sector, a fact that for every pound invested | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
in the BBC we get ?2 back in terms of the creative industry, or the | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
thing that I enjoy the most actually, which is the qualhty of | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
the science programmes and the nature programmes, this is ` truly | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
remarkable institution. We lust give it the support that it needs in this | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
changing world. One of the things that I'm concerned about with what | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
the Government is doing is that I feel that on both the financial | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
front and the independence front, the move is partly set out hn the | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
White Paper but partly the other things that have happened shnce the | :41:01. | :41:03. | |
general election are not gohng to give the BBC the support to which | :41:04. | :41:11. | |
they are entitled. I will t`lk first about money and then about | :41:12. | :41:13. | |
independence and then make ` few specific points about particular | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
issues. On the money front, of course it's welcome that thd licence | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
fee has been guaranteed for five years and of course it's welcome | :41:26. | :41:34. | |
that it's going to be extended to iPlayer watchers. It's also welcome | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
that we're not going to see any more top slicing, although the f`ct that | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
top slicing is ending for broadband is somewhat ironic, given the | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
somewhat problematic roll-ott of broadband which we're seeing in | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
rural areas which the Minister knows so much about. At we must sdt this | :41:50. | :41:56. | |
in the context of the fact that the BBC trust rolled over and accepted | :41:57. | :42:05. | |
to take responsibility, costing ?700 million out of the licence fee money | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
for providing free television licences to pensioners. Now, it s | :42:10. | :42:17. | |
all very well for the White Paper setting out a White Paper process | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
for the future for establishing what the financial arrangements will be. | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
I would have a bit more confidence in the BBC trust if they hadn't | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
rolled over last summer and agreed to what the Government wantdd with | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
respect to the television lhcences. It's not just that, it's thd fact | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
that on the previous occasion the previous chair and director,general | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
also agreed in the space of less than 24 hours, I think, to big cuts. | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
So I'm not convinced that the financial settlement which the BBC | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
have now got is adequate. When I get e-mails from the BBC telling me | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
from BBC management, telling me that they are reviewing the 24-hour | :43:00. | :43:05. | |
rolling news because they h`ve to save cuts, I'm afraid that does | :43:06. | :43:11. | |
rather challenge the rosier picture that was put forward by the | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
Secretary of State. The honourable lady is making a very powerful point | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
that I only briefly touched on, because this would give a monopoly | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
where there is hurriedly a duopoly to Sky News rolling 24. The BBC | :43:25. | :43:32. | |
provides competition. Of cotrse my honourable friend is right `nd we | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
will move into the contestability argument in a moment. In sole | :43:38. | :43:44. | |
respects, the White Paper h`s got lots of interesting facts and | :43:45. | :43:51. | |
background and in some ways is a very good document but one of the | :43:52. | :43:54. | |
things I think is particularly interesting is where they are | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
showing the forecast of people's media use. The thing is, thhs is | :43:59. | :44:09. | |
estimated, people's use of lobile media is forecast to double, I | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
think, by 2020. It seems thdrefore extremely odd to be chopping the | :44:15. | :44:22. | |
resources for the BBC at thhs particular moment. I can sed time is | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
pressing so I will move on to independence. I think the problem | :44:27. | :44:33. | |
with the fact that the board is going to have half its membdrs | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
appointed by the Government through a Government process is the collapse | :44:39. | :44:45. | |
between the executive and the trust. I agree that the trust suffdred from | :44:46. | :44:52. | |
some role confusion, were they cheerleaders or regulators? They | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
seemed to slide between the two The problem is, it will not be possible | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
for the director-general, who sits on the board alongside thesd other | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
members, to maintain the kind of editorial independence on which we | :45:05. | :45:11. | |
all rely. If a appointment hsn't a problem, reappointment cert`inly | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
will be. The three specific issues that I want to raise our, fhrst of | :45:16. | :45:26. | |
all, this proposal to collapse the World rolling news and the national | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
rolling news channel, it's absolutely obvious that's what's the | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
point -- that what is appropriate for a national news channel and | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
what's appropriate for a world News Channel are completely diffdrent | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
agendas and one of these is going to lose out. The next thing I'l | :45:41. | :45:49. | |
concerned about is the contracting out of 60% of the radio output. This | :45:50. | :45:56. | |
issue of contracting out and contestability, it's fine when we | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
are making subject to competitive tender 10% or 25% of the programmes. | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
But once we are moving to over 0%, I have to say that I think the | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
balance is moving in the wrong direction. Because we already have | :46:11. | :46:16. | |
independent television prodtcers. We already have independent colmercial | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
channels. We have channels funded by subscription, we have channdls | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
funded by advertising. To pretend that the BBC should somehow follow | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
their model through contest`bility seems to me to be quite | :46:31. | :46:37. | |
inappropriate. I think the hmpact of the BBC on the general qualhty of | :46:38. | :46:40. | |
programming is reinforced bx what happened when ITV made down to an | :46:41. | :46:47. | |
abbey and exported it to Amdrica. The Americans thought it was so good | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
they were convinced it was ` BBC project, that is the influence of | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
the BBC on our television standards across the board. -- Downton Abbey. | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
Finally, I have a question lark about whether financing loc`l news | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
for -- through the licence fee is the best approach. We obviotsly need | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
to do something about local newspapers but I'm not convhnced | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
that the licence fee is the right route to do that. Thank you, Madam | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
Deputy Speaker, for calling me to this important debate. As always | :47:21. | :47:28. | |
it's a pleasure to follow the honourable lady and to listdn to her | :47:29. | :47:36. | |
contribution. I always agred with about half of the speech shd makes! | :47:37. | :47:39. | |
I will emit myself to one m`in point. I'm very grateful to you for | :47:40. | :47:47. | |
squeezing me into this debate and I will try to limit myself to five | :47:48. | :47:56. | |
minutes. I wanted -- I will pass on all the condiments I wanted to pay | :47:57. | :48:03. | |
the BBC initially. At the s`me time I think we've got to recognhse that | :48:04. | :48:06. | |
developing and agreeing the role the BBC and the scope is an important | :48:07. | :48:12. | |
responsible at the Government through the charter renewal. The BBC | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
is inevitably powerful. It hs of its huge success it becomes domhnant in | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
many of its markets and there is a role for Government to be aware of | :48:22. | :48:27. | |
the impact that the BBC, backed by ?4 billion worth of effectively | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
public money through the licence fee, has on diversity, and H think | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
it remains positive rather than negative, I always believe ht does, | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
but it's a role for Governmdnt. Just because we are huge supportdrs of | :48:40. | :48:42. | |
the BBC doesn't mean that wd don't from time to time criticised the | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
BBC. I approached it is a bht like I approached the Welsh rugby team I | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
love it second only to my own family. But when they play badly, I | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
feel I've got a right to crhticise! I don't think that impact on my | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
regard for the BBC or indeed the Welsh rugby team. I was a bht | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
surprised to see this coming forward as an opposition debate. I do think | :49:04. | :49:09. | |
that the front bench had sole difficulty and worked quite hard to | :49:10. | :49:12. | |
generate genuine disagreement across the house. I think there was a large | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
measure of agreement across the house. The Government White Paper | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
has been welcomed across thd board including by the BBC before the | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
Secretary of State's White Paper I was receiving hundreds of e,mails | :49:27. | :49:29. | |
telling me about the terrible things the Government was going to do to | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
the BBC, virtually disbanding it and taking away its independencd. It's | :49:34. | :49:34. | |
all total nonsense. The White Paper was welcomed almost | :49:35. | :49:43. | |
by everybody who has a propdr response, that's the realitx. | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
Personally I thought, but I did think the argument which was raised | :49:49. | :49:56. | |
earlier today about the publication of payment packages, I have some | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
sympathy with the fact that should be lowered from the ?450,000. I | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
think ?150,000 was reasonable. I hope he might return to that and I | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
hope the BBC accepts that the public don't really agree with the position | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
that has been taken on that and they may well volunteer to bring that | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
figure down themselves. The one short point I want to make hs the | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
relationship between the BBC and S4C. S4C is important to Wales | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
culturally. It's our cultur`l identity and it's hugely important | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
to the Welsh language. Thesd issues are hugely important to me `nd I | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
have often spoken about thel before. During the last parliament funding | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
of S4C was moved from Government to the licence fee. Indeed 90% of S4C's | :50:41. | :50:47. | |
funding now comes from the licence - from the BBC. This relationship is | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
crucial. The Government has agreed an independent inquiry into the | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
future support arrangements for S4C. Now I am told this is not going to | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
take place until after the charter for the next 11 years has bden | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
agreed. I don't want to makd a criticism of the Government here but | :51:05. | :51:07. | |
I want to raise a point that's important to me and is caushng a | :51:08. | :51:13. | |
degree of uncertainty. What we do not want is a charter agreelent that | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
in some way makes it much more difficult to actually have ` proper | :51:19. | :51:21. | |
independent inquiry into thd future of S4C. I raise that in this debate | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
and I am pleased the Secret`ry of State is back in his seat, because | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
it is causing a great deal of concern. It's concern about what | :51:30. | :51:32. | |
might happen. It's not about what is going to happen. I just think it's | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
an issue that when we move forward on this, when it's been discussed | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
between the relevant parties that we have to be very careful unldss we | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
can have the two inquiries, the charter review and inquiry running | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
side by side, that when the charter review is completed it is done in a | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
way that doesn't impinge on the future relationship with S4C in the | :51:57. | :52:05. | |
independent inquiry. Thank xou. Thank you. I think we should start | :52:06. | :52:11. | |
by remembering that the BBC has just been asked to take pretty mtch a 20% | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
cut in its budget and I think there must be some senior executives and | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
some people close to the BBC who are beginning to question whethdr in | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
fact the deal that they madd last summer is the good one and one that | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
they are getting delivered on. Because presumably, I wasn't privy | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
to the conversations or the late night phone calls, but prestmably | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
the nature of the deal was that if they agreed to this and to lake a | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
?650 million contribution to the Chancellor's black hole in his | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
budget, then in return the BBC as we know it would be safe going into the | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
future. In two respects, ond it will continue to be funded by public | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
subscription through the licence fee and that it would be editorhally | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
independent. I don't know what's in the minds of the Ministers `nd we | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
will see as the debate on the White Paper develops over the rest of this | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
year and we go to charter rdnewal, but it's a case that there certainly | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
are still voices on the benches behind the Ministerial team who are | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
very hostile to the BBC and who will question whether or not the licence | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
fee should remain in place `nd who will question whether or not they | :53:18. | :53:20. | |
should be obliged to have more privatisation and more of a | :53:21. | :53:23. | |
commercial motive in their output. I thought that had gone and the BBC | :53:24. | :53:30. | |
needs to take - that debate is not over. On these benches, as ly | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
colleague said, we are absolutely committed to public service | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
broadcasting. I think we should remember that the opposite of having | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
a public service ethos in otr broadcasting is to have a commercial | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
one where decisions are madd on how many viewers you can get and how | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
many programmes you can sell in an international market. In my view, | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
that makes for bad programmds. It makes for removing innovation, | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
removing creativity, removing experimentation. I want to to | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
illustrate this with an exalple Probably my favourite progr`mme at | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
the moment is Peaky Blinders, it's a gritty series set in 1920s | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
Birmingham about gangsters of the time. It is rich in social Realism | :54:18. | :54:24. | |
and it is rich also in its `ttention to period detail in every rdspect | :54:25. | :54:30. | |
but one, it has a contempor`ry electric soundtrack to a period | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
drama. Now some would say that on paper that doesn't work and in fact | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
that would spoil the progralme. But actually the electric guitar and | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
Jack White and others on th`t soundtrack enhances the men`ce in | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
the narrative that's on the screen. Now I bet that if somebody had taken | :54:48. | :54:56. | |
that idea to an independent - to a commissioner whose principld | :54:57. | :54:58. | |
objective was how many viewdrs can we get and how many of thesd can we | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
sell? They would have sent ht back saying no, I want a score which is | :55:04. | :55:09. | |
reflective of the rag-time or music of the period. So, an experhment | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
would have been denied. It light have sold more copies, it mhght have | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
had more viewers but it would have been a much worse programme as a | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
result. I think there have been steps forward, sometimes baby steps | :55:22. | :55:24. | |
but steps forward in the wax in which the BBC is operating `nd there | :55:25. | :55:28. | |
has been some decentralisathon that is extremely welcome. I think it has | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
resulted in better programmds. If you look, for example, at the | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
forensic and high energy ex`mination of corruption in - alleged | :55:41. | :55:43. | |
corruption in the Metropolitan Police and consider that is produced | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
by a production crew in Belfast who would have thought they would have | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
been the best ekwaped -- eqtipped to do that? If you look at Shetland or | :55:52. | :56:00. | |
Hinterland you can see crimd drama set in the Scottish Islands and | :56:01. | :56:02. | |
commands an audience which hs general and which is much whder than | :56:03. | :56:10. | |
that, because by exploring diversity you get better programmes which can | :56:11. | :56:13. | |
be - which can enrich the entire output for everyone. I want to turn | :56:14. | :56:20. | |
to the situation in Scotland and the time - in the time I have ldft. My | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
friend made some points that I want to reiterate, but the first thing to | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
say is I think the management of the BBC are playing catch-up and not | :56:30. | :56:35. | |
playing it very well in terls of the decentralisation that has already | :56:36. | :56:38. | |
taken place within the Government of the United Kingdom. It is wdlcome, | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
of course, that now in the new Scotland act the Scottish Government | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
has got a say in how the ch`rter renewal process takes place, a say | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
in the management of the BBC, but is it not really remarkable th`t 2 | :56:54. | :56:59. | |
years almost after the creation of a Scottish parliament we are debating | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
that they should have these limited powers? We believe we put forward | :57:04. | :57:06. | |
the amendment in the Scottish bill debate, we will put it forw`rd | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
again, that broadcasting should be the responsibility of the Scottish | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
Government in Scotland. How can it be that the Scottish Governlent is | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
entrusted by this House to lake decisions on assisted dying, on | :57:19. | :57:21. | |
abortion, on running all thd public services, on what rate of income tax | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
to charge people and yet it can t control the telly or the radio. It | :57:27. | :57:34. | |
does seem to me to be a rem`rkable situation. Now we believe that in | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
the process of charter renewal some of these debates can be revhsited | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
and we think a model that the BBC should look at would be a fdderal | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
structure as my friend said. Licence fees are collected in Scotl`nd are | :57:49. | :57:51. | |
controlled and directed in Scotland by people who are - who unddrstand | :57:52. | :57:57. | |
what they're trying to do, where the programme-making and the | :57:58. | :57:59. | |
commissioning is controlled in Scotland, most of all, so that the | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
considerable resources available there can support our creathve | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
industries and the talent and the artists that are there in otr own | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
country. At the moment many of them do not and many of our best creative | :58:13. | :58:18. | |
talent is obliged to travel 400 miles south to ply their tr`de in | :58:19. | :58:21. | |
this city and I don't think that's something that's acceptable in the | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
long-term. I think most people would probably agree with that whdn we | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
give examples of drama or entertainment, that the output | :58:33. | :58:35. | |
should reflect the place in which it is being made but it's most | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
important when it comes to the question of news and current | :58:41. | :58:44. | |
affairs. I think the benches opposite misunderstand or pdrhaps | :58:45. | :58:47. | |
deliberately misunderstand our concern in this respect. Thdre was | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
talk earlier of sour grapes and sore losers. Do remember I am spdaking on | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
behalf of a party that's getting adept at winning elections, by the | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
way, but our concern is not about sour grapes or being sore losers in | :59:01. | :59:07. | |
any event, our concern is about the fairness and impartiality of our | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
national broadcaster. Now when the Secretary of State thereford says | :59:12. | :59:16. | |
that he thinks it's the rold of the BBC to keep the nation together | :59:17. | :59:21. | |
that becomes a non-neutral statement in the context where the | :59:22. | :59:25. | |
constitutional future of our country is, shall we say, a matter of | :59:26. | :59:31. | |
divided opinion. It's not a matter of reviewing the 2014 referdndum | :59:32. | :59:35. | |
result, but it's an underst`nding that there are different | :59:36. | :59:38. | |
perspectives within the Scottish population and almost 50% of the | :59:39. | :59:42. | |
people do not agree that st`ying in the United Kingdom in the longer | :59:43. | :59:45. | |
term is the best option for us, they would like to see self-Government of | :59:46. | :59:49. | |
their own country. Now I am not arguing about who's going to win or | :59:50. | :59:53. | |
is going to lose that argumdnt but we should accept that there is more | :59:54. | :59:58. | |
than one opinion. Therefore, to deny that and for the BBC to takd an | :59:59. | :00:04. | |
editorial view that the nathon must be kept together by which I presume | :00:05. | :00:11. | |
they mean the UK, means manx people will feel disenfranchised and | :00:12. | :00:13. | |
alienated from the national broadcaster and that's to bd a | :00:14. | :00:15. | |
matter of concern, I would have thought. I know the Secretary of | :00:16. | :00:18. | |
State's opinions are his ophnions and he doesn't control the output of | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
BBC Scotland, of course that's right. But I would suggest having | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
senior politicians who take that view is going to have some dffect on | :00:28. | :00:30. | |
the people working at the coalface and making the programmes. H think | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
we need to say quite clearlx to BBC Scotland that it is their | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
responsibility to reflect the diversity and the plurality of | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
opinion that exists in that country, rather than take sides on this | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
matter. I will finish by saxing that I know from speaking to senhor | :00:47. | :00:53. | |
executives at BBC Scotland that the director general now has fotr, I | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
don't know if it's video tapes or DVDs, four episodes of a potential | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
Scottish news programme on his desk and they vary in as much as the | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
degree of control that is bding influenced by the Scottish dditors | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
and producers. I hope that he will take the bold and commendable step | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
of taking the most ambitious of those and committing to allowing the | :01:15. | :01:21. | |
people that live in Scotland to view BBC Scotland through their own | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
experience and in a way that reflects their own lives. Thank you. | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
I am pleased to be able to contribute to this debate and I want | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
to concentrate on just one `spect of the White Paper and that's the | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
proposal to modernise the lhcence fee by the closure of the iPlayer | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
loophole requiring all thosd who access BBC on demand content to pay | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
the licence fee. This has a real impact on our students and H have | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
already asked questions abott how this will impact on students living | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
away from home. The responsd I have received has been that the | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
Government consulted on addhng on demand programme services to the TV | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
licence framework and that tnder the new proposals all individuals will | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
need to be covered by a TV licence if they stream or download TV | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
programmes through on demand services provided by the BBC. The | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
response went on helpfully to state, if an individual has a licence | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
already, then they are autolatically covered to watch BBC on dem`nd | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
services under the new proposals. The latter point I was alre`dy aware | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
of and this is the issue with students living away from home. I | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
know also that although I asked specifically about what assdssment | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
had been made of the potenthal effect on students, this was not | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
referred to in the response and from that I can only conclude th`t no | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
assessment has been made. Ldgally, if a student is living away from | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
home and has a television in their room and that room is a lockable | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
self-contained unit, then they need to have a TV licence. Howevdr, the | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
majority of students do not have televisions in their rooms so they | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
do not need to purchase a TV licence. Many students will, | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
however, have in their rooms a computer or an iPad on which they | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
will access BBC programmes online, many for research and study purposes | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
and it would seem that the hmpact of the proposed closure of the iPlayer | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
loophole will now require these students to be in possession of of a | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
TV licence adding yet more dxpense to an already phenomenally dxpensive | :03:33. | :03:33. | |
education. The Government claims to have | :03:34. | :03:43. | |
consulted on the continued provision of the licence fee and found, and I | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
quote, "Significant support for reform or modernisation". On this | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
basis they have committed to modernise the licence fee to include | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
BBC on demand programmes. Ydt an examination of the consultation | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
results shows that 59.8% of responses said that no change was | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
needed. With only 15.1% supporting reform including closing thd iPlayer | :04:09. | :04:15. | |
loophole. Additionally, an `nalysis of the radio Times survey appears in | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
the White Paper and the startling fact is reported that 3% of | :04:22. | :04:23. | |
respondents indicated that there should be some form of licence fee | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
reform including closing thd iPlayer loophole. So 3% and 15.1%, ht's | :04:29. | :04:36. | |
hardly a positive mandate for action, is it? Yet on the b`sis of | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
that minority view, the Govdrnment have ploughed on regardless and are | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
now proposing to make this change without any evidence of havhng | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
assessed the impact of thosd likely to be at first the affected. | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
Certainly having looked at the list of groups feeding into the | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
consultation, I can find no group representing students, no N`tional | :04:58. | :05:00. | |
Union of Students or similar body in evidence. And while the Secretary of | :05:01. | :05:08. | |
State consulted sources as diverse as Glasgow City Council and Sir | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
Lenny Henry, he forgot to consult 2.5 million students in the UK. | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
Students feel so strongly about this issue that there is a changd.org | :05:17. | :05:23. | |
petition calling for students to be made exempt from having to pay a | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
licence to watch iPlayer on demand. This position was started bx | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
students at love green of a hit who said, "I'm acutely aware of the vast | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
sums of money required to study away from home. Today's students will | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
leave university with an avdrage debt of ?45,000. A TV licence would | :05:47. | :05:55. | |
add ?436 50 over three years, adding more debt to an already unaffordable | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
education. This points out that the Government has not been kind to | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
students financially, chronhcling the increase in tuition fees, | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
replacing grants with loans and building up yet more debts. She | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
believes it's about time thd Government did something positive | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
for students in the UK. I agree with this student and I'm supporting her | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
campaign. The petition so f`r has 17,405 supporters, many of whom have | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
left comments pointing out the principles of the BBC, to inform, to | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
educate and to entertain. Strely we would wish our students to `ccess | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
the first two principles at least and tolerate the fact that xes, they | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
may also be entertained at times without it adding to the motntain of | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
debt that they already leavd university with. I mentioned before | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
that the National Union of Students were not among the list of bodies | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
who were engaged with consultation. However, I have consulted whth the | :06:59. | :07:00. | |
National Union of Students `nd I will then issue with the words of | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
the NUS Vice President of wdlfare, who said to me today, and I quote, | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
"The iPlayer offers access to BBC for which a licence fee is not | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
required. And to archive material for which there could be strong | :07:16. | :07:17. | |
academic reasons necessitathng access. This change would unfairly | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
prohibit continued free usage of these services. And at a more basic | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
level, with the gap in available financial support and the average | :07:31. | :07:33. | |
cost of living for students running to thousands of pounds a ye`r, the | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
idea that students have spare cash to cover this proposed additional | :07:38. | :07:44. | |
cost is bordering on the ridiculous. The simplest solution is to offer an | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
exemption for students who solely access BBC iPlayer and we stpport | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
calls on the Government to revisit this decision. I support thd view of | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
the National Union of Students and I urge the Secretary of State to | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
rethink the closure of the hPlayer loophole, to do something positive | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
for our students and make them exempt from it. John Pugh. Can I | :08:06. | :08:14. | |
congratulate the Right Honotrable member for having brought in a new | :08:15. | :08:22. | |
angle? It used to be argued from the 1970s that the BBC was in f`ct run | :08:23. | :08:24. | |
by Communists. Like most great British | :08:25. | :08:37. | |
organisations, it is as much part of historical accident than by design. | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
I hesitate to call it a nathonal treasure but it is certainlx | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
internationally respected, largely because it is not simply consumer | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
driven or obviously pursuing its own agenda. It acts as though it has got | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
obligations and values, duthes to inform, to educate, to fostdr | :08:58. | :09:07. | |
intellectual development, to give understandings of traditions and | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
history. That's probable yot why we have the diversity programmds we do | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
and more creativity in the BBC then you get in commercial broadcasting. | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
Oddly enough that is football for the BBC. If we didn't have these | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
obligations there would be no case to provide it with public ftnds at | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
all. But it is ultimately a paternalistic model, which hs why it | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
got called auntie, mixing the metaphors there. We may wonder it in | :09:33. | :09:42. | |
a kind of post-modern way whether we never get impartiality right, but | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
what we do want the public sector to do is to make the effort and that | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
means building the right sort of challenge into the system. Luch | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
appreciated. Would the Honotrable member appreciate the point that | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
certainly from a Scottish point of view, despite as the Honour`ble | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
member touched on, the liberated devolved powers we do have with the | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
BBC that everything comes from a London centric point of view and | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
that is partly what the problem is and the level of dissatisfaction? We | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
would make exactly the same point about the north-west which hs why | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
we're so glad that the BBC was persuaded kicking and screaling to | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
come up to Salford. It seems that the public sector with a clhque of | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
right minded individuals inordinately pleased with themselves | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
won't really do the trick. We have a ready recognise the BBC has | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
diversity issues and equallx can have complacency issues. Just | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
because both sides criticisd you when they clearly do at the moment | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
that doesn't mean to say yot're getting things right. Universal | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
condemnation all round in most other walks of life is not an automatic | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
sign that you're doing a good job. Most of -- much of that challenge | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
will come from the public and indeed does. Much will come from other | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
media and indeed does. Some should come from Parliament. The accounts | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
committee has wrestled to gdt to the bottom of the BBC accounts fund and | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
had great issues. The only two issues the accounts committde has | :11:20. | :11:21. | |
had problems getting to the bottom of the more one is Saudi arls deals | :11:22. | :11:29. | |
and the other is the BBC finances. If it is not in the culture itself | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
and it should be, there has to be a structure beyond simply feedback | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
programmes that facilitates it. I don't see a case against Government | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
appointees being part of th`t structure. Why after all should the | :11:43. | :11:45. | |
Government not have a view? The important thing is that the | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
influence of the Government should not be an Jew, decisive or | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
determining, and always transparent. -- should not be undue. I think what | :11:56. | :12:06. | |
were referred to earlier as lefty luvvies are more worrying than over | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
Government representation, `nd behind-the-scenes influence can | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
often be quite corrosive. Fhnd the scenes at the moment, the BBC are | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
running scared of covering the Tory election expenses issue Sibley | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
because they are fearful of what the Government may do. Sadly I think the | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
Government would prefer to have things both ways, covert and over | :12:28. | :12:34. | |
influence, stuffing the Govdrnment placement... Using traditional dark | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
arts to hobble the BBC wherdver possible. It is our duty here to | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
argue for as much transparency and accountability as we can get. I | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
think that's the only genuine way in which we can safeguard independence. | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
But the transparency has got to be twofold. It has to be about what the | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
BBC does and funds but it h`s also got to be about what leveraged the | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
Government has and exercises. Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker | :13:05. | :13:12. | |
We've had a high and thoughtful debate here today. I'm pleased that | :13:13. | :13:19. | |
the Secretary of State was `ble to take a break from his true love | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
campaigning in the EU referdndum, to be here. He will have heard members | :13:24. | :13:31. | |
on all sides beat with overwhelming positivity about the BBC's | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
contribution and place in Britain and the world. The member for | :13:35. | :13:43. | |
Montgomeryshire emphasised, and I apologise for my mispronunchation... | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
Emphasised that in the Welsh context. The member for East | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
Dunbartonshire, not surprishngly, in the Scottish context. The mdmber for | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
Hayward and Liverpool, my honourable friend, highlighted its importance | :14:01. | :14:08. | |
to students and I hope the Linister will address her concerns when he | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
rises. Members from all sidds voiced their concerns about the ch`rter | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
renewal process, the editorhal independence of the BBC, its | :14:18. | :14:24. | |
financial independence and the BBC's future mission. Whilst I agree with | :14:25. | :14:34. | |
the member for Bexhill's position on Motorhead, I'm afraid I can't share | :14:35. | :14:37. | |
his complacency when it comds to the review. Any Honourable membdrs spoke | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
of the good work the BBC has done and continues to do and the value of | :14:43. | :14:51. | |
public service, particularlx members for Edinburgh, high burn and | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
Southport. We heard about the cultural power of the BBC, `bout the | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
power it reflects and projects around the world and the millions of | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
people for whom it is the only reliable window on the world. | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
Several Honourable members spoke of the key role our public sector | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
broadcasters play in supporting our creative industries, the continuing | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
success of the BBC and its role as one of the cornerstones of our 84 | :15:22. | :15:28. | |
billion creative industries is something that we on these benches | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
celebrate. I want to dwell, Madam Deputy Speaker, for just a loment, | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
on the importance of the cultural sector and not only here in this | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
Bastian of privilege, but in every home and on every high stredt. The | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
BBC is instrumental in that and it is public. We on this side of the | :15:50. | :15:56. | |
house do not have an ideological problem with successful public | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
sector organisations. And jtst like the 73% of respondents to the | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
charter renewal concentration who supported the BBC's continuhng | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
independence or the two thirds who said that the BBC had a that if | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
wider impact on the market, or the three faiths that agreed th`t the | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
current system is functioning, the current system of financing is | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
functioning well, we on this side of the house and am on the benches | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
opposite see a flourishing BBC and think, how can we support it and | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
make it even better? Instead, the Secretary of State seems to have set | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
out to deliberately diminish it undermine its finances, inddpendence | :16:41. | :16:47. | |
and by insisting that the BBC be distinct if, in some way thhs can | :16:48. | :16:56. | |
sing itself from successful popular broadcasting -- distancing htself | :16:57. | :16:58. | |
from successful popular broadcasting. This change h`s | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
nothing to do with equipping the BBC for a new age of digital technology | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
and changing methods of medha consumption which the members for | :17:06. | :17:12. | |
Solihull and my friend the lember for Bishop Auckland quite rhghtly | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
emphasised, this has everything to do with hobbling a great Brhtish | :17:16. | :17:22. | |
institution. Madam Deputy Speaker, we are not arguing that the BBC is | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
perfect. I have participated in several debates this year alone | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
about the BBC's poor record on diversity, the it BME, soci`l | :17:32. | :17:40. | |
economic agenda, allergy BT or regional. We have heard concerns... | :17:41. | :17:50. | |
The BBC's licence fee funding means it should provide something for | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
everyone. I'm pleased that there recently launched either city policy | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
is an attempt to reflect thhs. We shall watch with interest. When the | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
BBC gets it wrong, it is right that we are critical. But we must also | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
celebrate when they get it right. And it gets so very much right. | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
That's why it is the greatest broadcaster on earth. There has been | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
a great deal of concern raised in this debate and outside this house | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
on the effects of the Chartdr on the BBC's independence. The Honourable | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
member for Bishop Auckland spoke passionately about the impact on the | :18:34. | :18:42. | |
BBC's editorial independencd. The charter changes the BBC's governance | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
and regulation and they havd been described as the biggest ch`nges to | :18:48. | :18:49. | |
the organisation in its 94 xear history. | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
We on this side of the Housd have made it clear it is simply not | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
acceptable for unitary board who will have influence on editorial | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
output to have up to half its members appointed by governlent | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
Those on the benches are sh`king their heads, but that is thd case. | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, once tpon a time... I will give way. Thd | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
influence comes postproducthon, so there is a controversy. And that is | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
perfectly right and proper. I thank the honourable member for that | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
intervention. It is an established principle of regulation, thd | :19:32. | :19:39. | |
chilling effect of post-rock, postproduction influence it would | :19:40. | :19:47. | |
have in this case. -- post-hoc. The influence on editorial power, | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
editorial influence. I do h`ve an interest, as I declared, in having | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
worked for off,, which must be remembered. The current Prile | :19:57. | :20:03. | |
Minister once vowed to abolhsh it, but rather than abolishing ht the | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
Government has heaped new responsibilities and powers, | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
creating in some respect a super-regulator, but will they be | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
furnishing it with further resources or ensuring the internal botndaries | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
that are needed to do such hmportant functions? Madam Deputy Spe`ker | :20:21. | :20:27. | |
Spectrum may not be as sexy as Strictly but it requires focused | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
resource and energy to get ht right. We want to make sure the resources | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
are there in place so that happens. The Secretary of State said earlier | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
previous administrations have appointed members to the bo`rd, and | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
that was the subject of an intervention, but he failed to | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
mention that in the past thd board has not had direct influencd on the | :20:49. | :20:55. | |
BBC's editorial content. Thhs is a point that the Secretary of State | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
and the Minister must addressed Other members today spoke of the | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
threat to the financial inddpendence of the BBC. My honourable friends, | :21:07. | :21:08. | |
the members for high pointed out how it threaten | :21:09. | :21:21. | |
services. Birdie Kim the TV with free television licences for over | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
75s has already threatened hts future independence and was a | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
worrying precedent. An independent organisation being corrupted into | :21:30. | :21:37. | |
delivering government policx. The proposals of allowing the N`tional | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
Audit Office access to the BBC's commercial arm could arrangd its | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
commercial operations, further undermining its finances and | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
independence. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is our BBC. It belongs to the | :21:53. | :22:01. | |
people. Every household pays for it. But the Government are messhng with | :22:02. | :22:10. | |
the fundamentals of our Beeb, not to cricket for the digital age enable | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
it to fight the new global bemoths or represent our diverse society, | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
but because the BBC is a public sector success story, and that | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
undermines the crooked ideology of this freewheeling government. I urge | :22:28. | :22:37. | |
the House to support this motion and to protect our BBC. | :22:38. | :22:47. | |
Madam Debbie Speaker, it is a great opportunity to respond to this | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
important debate. May I think all members who made such effective | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
conclusions. -- Deputy Speaker. The brilliant speeches from the member | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
of East Dumbartonshire and them honourable member of Solihull who | :23:05. | :23:16. | |
was employed by the BBC. All the people who have benefited from the | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
BBC on this side of the House. The honourable member for Bishop | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
Auckland and Montgomeryshird, who rightly talked about the importance | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
of S4C, for who he has been a champion for throughout. Thd member | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
of Hayward and Middleton spdaking for students and the honour`ble | :23:35. | :23:37. | |
member for Southport, a bully book ended by the formidable spokesman | :23:38. | :23:46. | |
for the opposition and the honourable member for Newcastle upon | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
Tyne Central who I have shadowed now for six years. I bow to no one in my | :23:50. | :23:56. | |
love and respect for the BBC. I am currently immersed, immersed in | :23:57. | :24:06. | |
Versailles. If anyone wants to understand the dominance of the | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
British media, it comes to something when the French have to makd a film, | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
a ten episode series about one of the most important episode hn | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
history, and it has to be done in English so it can be shown on the | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
BBC. Quite right. Who wants Brexit when if we Remain the French have to | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
make all their programmes in English? To echo my right honourable | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
friend from Montgomeryshire, saying the BBC as important to him as his | :24:35. | :24:41. | |
own family. I go to bed every night with BBC, I cannot go to sldep and | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
rest radio five live is plaxing on my clock radio. This gives le an | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
opportunity to congratulate the newly appointed president on radio | :24:50. | :24:58. | |
five live and Emma Barnett `s well, two important announcements about | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
new presenters on radio fivd live. A formidable station. I think in the | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
short time I have available to me let me address some of the points | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
that were raised. One is thd attempt to try and run an argument that | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
somehow the BBC's independence is threatened by the new unitary board. | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
As you are well aware, the governors of the BBC were appointed bx the | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
Government, and we saw how the last baby-macro government behavdd when | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
it appointed a crony to be the chairman of the BBC and appointed a | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
Labour donor to be the director-general of the BBC. Then | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
when the BBC displeased thel, it ran them both out of town. The BBC trust | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
is appointed by the Governmdnt, but this new board, the majoritx members | :25:50. | :25:56. | |
will be appointed by the BBC. The nations and regions members will be | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
appointed by the Government, under an independent appointments process. | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
If you read the excellent, which the deputy Secretary of State | :26:08. | :26:10. | |
commission, you will see a thoughtful analysis of the best way | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
of appointing members to thd board. I would urge honourable members to | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
read that. There is no attelpt to threaten the BBC and the position of | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
the director-general as editing chief is strengthened. Therd was | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
talk from honourable members about the importance of nations and | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
regions. That is strengthendd by the white paper. We see the BBC itself | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
taking important steps to enhance its coverage in the nations and | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
regions. In the great nation of Scotland, new drama and comddy | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
editors for Scotland. Important partnerships with important | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
stakeholders like creative Scotland, the creation of a centre of | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
excellence for factual programming and the all-important news review. | :26:53. | :26:59. | |
And of course, there has bedn talk about the clause, that sometimes | :27:00. | :27:02. | |
this is a charter by the back door. We simply recognise the way things | :27:03. | :27:05. | |
are changing in the media and we know if we put in place a structure, | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
an 11 year charter which gives the BBC great deal of independence for | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
the sustainable decade... Btt we know technology is changing. Look at | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
the SNP front bench, they are on their blackberries and iPads, | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
consuming media from all ovdr the world. This is the challengd the BBC | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
faces. Maybe in five years they will be watching this through virtual | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
reality goggles, and at that point we will want to sit down with the | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
BBC and say... And say, do we need to change anything because dveryone | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
is watching through virtual reality? It is a sensible attempt to have a | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
review of how the charter is working. The BBC needs more help in | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
this multimedia world. I thhnk you would agree with me, that is the | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
right way forward. I'm very pleased that diversity has been mentioned by | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
many honourable members. Thhs is an issue that is deeply import`nt to me | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
and many honourable members, and indeed to the viewers of thd BBC. It | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
is vital that we recognise the charter, thanks to the Secrdtary of | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
State, has put diversity into the charter for the first time. That is | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
an important milestone. I rdcognise the honourable lady from Haxward and | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
Middleton raising concerns `bout the iPlayer loophole. We want to close | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
the iPlayer loophole to help the BBC, as more and more peopld consume | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
the BBC on tablets and mobile phones, | :28:37. | :28:47. | |
it is the licence fee is also able to modernise. So what we sed from | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
this white paper, which has been widely welcomed on all sides of the | :28:52. | :28:54. | |
House, is a white paper that addresses the needs of the BBC, that | :28:55. | :28:56. | |
strengthens its independencd, takes the charter out of the electoral | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
cycle, recognises the importance of a distinctive BBC highlights the | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
importance of diversity, and quite rightly has been welcomed bx the | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
BBC. I beg to move the amendment. The question is that the orhginal | :29:10. | :29:16. | |
words stand part of the question. As many of those of the opinion say | :29:17. | :29:23. | |
aye. Of the country say no. Clear the lobby. | :29:24. | :30:25. | |
Order. The question is, the original words stand part of the question. Of | :30:26. | :30:39. | |
those to the opinion say ayd, those to the country say no. Tell as for | :30:40. | :30:52. | |
the ayes Andy noes. -- for the ayes and noes. | :30:53. | :41:09. | |
SPEAKER: Order. The ayes to the right, 216, the noes to the left, | :41:10. | :41:33. | |
286. The ayes to the right, 216 the noes to the left, 286 so thd noes | :41:34. | :41:44. | |
have it, unlock! Order. Supplementary business | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
statement from the Leader of the House. | :41:48. | :41:54. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I must put the question on the | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
overall position first. The original question on the order paper was | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
since when an amendment has been proposed on the order paper. | :42:04. | :42:10. | |
The question is that the proposed votes be added. All those in favour | :42:11. | :42:23. | |
say aye. And all those against no. I think the ayes have it. We come to | :42:24. | :42:30. | |
be supplementary is in a st`tement from the Leader of the Housd, Mr | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
Chris Grayling. Thank you, with your permission I'd | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
like to make a short supplelentary business statement. The bushness | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
tomorrow will be a motion to approve a statutory instrument relating to | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
the European Union referendtm on voter registration, followed by the | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
previously envisaged general debate on carers as determined by the | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
Backbench Business committed. I will of course make my usual bushness | :42:54. | :42:56. | |
statement announcing future business tomorrow morning. | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
The shadow leader Mr Chris Bryant. I'm grateful to the governmdnt for | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
doing what we asked earlier and it's obviously important we try `nd make | :43:06. | :43:08. | |
sure it's possible for everxbody trying to take part in the Duropean | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
referendum to do so. I'm gr`teful for the consultation there has been | :43:14. | :43:16. | |
between the two front bench is. I hope the leader will be abld to | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
confirm there will not be any more extraneous statements tomorrow other | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
than his business statement because the carers debate is very ilportant, | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
it is National carers week `nd there are many people who care about that | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
issue. Of course we will see tomorrow | :43:34. | :43:36. | |
morning as normal whether there is other business. On acutely `ware | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
that the carers debate is a matter of great importance to people in | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
this house and thank the honourable gentleman. | :43:45. | :43:52. | |
We will take Mr Wishart first. Order. Perfectly proper way in which | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
to proceed to which nobody should object. I would just say to the | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
House that this is a narrow, they very important matter, and therefore | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
necessarily exchanges are, H wouldn't say circumscribed, but | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
limited to the question of the scheduled business, a reschdduling | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
of course, for tomorrow. Thhs is not an opportunity for a general airing | :44:20. | :44:26. | |
of opinions about overall btsiness, still less is it an opportunity for | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
an exchange of views about `spects of the EU referendum question. I do | :44:32. | :44:39. | |
know why I thought the honotrable member might be so tempted, maybe | :44:40. | :44:42. | |
it's just the cheeky expression on his face, but it's purely about the | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
scheduled business for tomorrow to the narrow confines of which I know | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
the honourable gentleman of the SNP will stick with rigid proprhety as | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
always. I would also like to add our | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
gratitude to the Leader of the House for changing the business for | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
tomorrow. This demonstrates a deeply systemic failure in the electoral | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
process. This is supposed to be the gold standard, the biggest decision | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
this house and country has dver taken yet it has turned into a | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
panicky response to a potentially disastrous situation in which loads | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
of people could have been ldft out. When we have the opportunitx to | :45:22. | :45:24. | |
debate this tomorrow I hope the issues are aired and we can get to | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
the heart of what has happened to ensure this never happens again | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
Mr Speaker, you granted the urgent question early and with the debate | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
tomorrow morning I'm sure the honourable gentleman would like to | :45:37. | :45:39. | |
make points about the process and he will have opportunity to do so. | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
SPEAKER: Indeed. But Liam Fox. Mr Speaker, in order to asshst the | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
House in its deliberations tomorrow, would my Right Honourable friend | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
publish any precedents for `ny government of any colour ch`nging | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
electoral law during an election period itself. | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
Mr Speaker, the Mizdow who will take part in that debate is sitthng | :46:04. | :46:06. | |
alongside of me and will take note of the request and do everything he | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
can to keep the House as fully informed as possible. Jane O'Brien. | :46:10. | :46:16. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker, I entirely support the decision to extdnd the | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
registration period but givdn the shambles that has occurred here | :46:21. | :46:23. | |
Cambuur Leeuwarden of the House guarantee that everybody who wants | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
to register to vote is now going to be able to and would he consider | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
looking at automatic registration for the future, in order th`t we can | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
avoid these problems? These are matters for the ddbate | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
tomorrow, I can simply ensure the House -- sure the House that the | :46:44. | :46:46. | |
government will allow those attempting to register the | :46:47. | :46:52. | |
opportunity to do so. Mr Speaker, can my Right Honourable | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
friend confirmed that peopld have had months and months in whhch to | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
register, and if they left ht until the last minute and all tridd to | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
register yesterday that's their fault and we should not change our | :47:05. | :47:12. | |
regulations in the middle of a very important referendum campaign simply | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
to suit those who had not organised their personal affairs well enough | :47:16. | :47:18. | |
to secure their registration in good time. | :47:19. | :47:25. | |
I know that my honourable friend feel strongly about these m`tters. | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
The benefit of the debate and vote tomorrow is he will have thd | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
opportunity to express his views and participate fully in those | :47:35. | :47:37. | |
processes. This is purely a question of the | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
scheduling of the business. If people wish to opine on the merits | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
or demerits of the proposed legislation to be brought bdfore the | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
House they will have that opportunity tomorrow. And I wonder | :47:50. | :47:58. | |
whether that will burn off ` few colleagues. Obviously not you! | :47:59. | :48:07. | |
Mr Speaker, Cambuur Leeuwarden the, in relation to tomorrow's btsiness, | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
ensure that members of the government send out a very clear | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
message after any decisions that might be taken tomorrow to dnsure | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
that people actually use thdir vote once they have registered and know | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
how to do so. Mr Speaker, I can assure thd House | :48:26. | :48:28. | |
that that has already happened. Clearly those boats cannot count | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
unless the measure is passed. The encouragement of people to | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
participate in case this hotse decides that weight is conthnuing. | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
Sur Nigel Evans. Will there be enough time to discuss | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
one issue with registration tomorrow which is that a number of pdople who | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
are clearly ineligible to vote, EU citizens, are being sent | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
registration cards or ballot cards now? Will there be an opportunity | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
for the Government to express what action they are taking to ensure | :49:03. | :49:05. | |
that those people who are not eligible to vote will not bd able to | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
register in the first place? Mr Speaker, as you will recall this was | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
raised in the urgent question earlier and my honourable friend | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
makes an important point. Mhnisters have provided reassurance to the | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
House but I'm sure they can do so tomorrow if required. | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
Cambuur Leeuwarden of the House confirm how long the debate will be | :49:27. | :49:27. | |
tomorrow? A standard 90 minute debate, as is | :49:28. | :49:40. | |
customary for secondary leghslation. The extension of registration will | :49:41. | :49:43. | |
not apply to Northern Ireland, therefore will be measured be | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
subject to be certified unddr EU provision? The drafting will include | :49:50. | :49:59. | |
Northern Ireland. The ability to register onlhne, | :50:00. | :50:07. | |
easily, meant a lot of applhcations last year were duplicates, which | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
meant unnecessary work was required from election teams. How many | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
applications were genuine and how many were duplicates? | :50:17. | :50:25. | |
I can simply say on all these points my honourable friend will h`ve the | :50:26. | :50:28. | |
opportunity to take part in the debate tomorrow and deal with very | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
important issues before this house. Can I clarify the Northern Hreland | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
situation? It is subject to discussion but because Northern | :50:38. | :50:39. | |
Ireland has a different system of registration we want to makd sure it | :50:40. | :50:44. | |
is handled in the appropriate way. Order. We now come... I am lost | :50:45. | :50:53. | |
grateful to the Leader of the House for his supplementary busindss | :50:54. | :51:00. | |
statement. In the name of the Leader of the Opposition this notion is on | :51:01. | :51:10. | |
the December disability employment gap. Mr Owen Smith. | :51:11. | :51:19. | |
Thank you very much Mr Speaker. I do so miss the Speaker because in my | :51:20. | :51:28. | |
opinion, the opinion of Her Majesty's loyal opposition, this | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
country is failing disabled people in this country, failing to support | :51:32. | :51:34. | |
them into work and those un`ble to work. And they are doing so | :51:35. | :51:41. | |
deliberately, with calculathon and care and premeditation, even. It was | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
entirely premeditated to go into the last election boasting they were | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
going to cut a further ?12 billion from Social Security, but forgetting | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
to mention it was going to come from disabled people, from peopld on low | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
wages needing tax credits and universal credit. I would lhke to | :52:01. | :52:05. | |
say, Mr Speaker, we don't know why they are doing it but we do. The | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
Secretary of State's predecdssor told us in his tearful goodbye. He | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
said, we see benefits as a pot of money to cut because they don't vote | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
for us. It's still shocks md, Mr Speaker, to repeat that demolition | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
of this government's one nation credentials, indicted out of their | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
own mouths. So though while I welcome his successor to thd | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
dispatch box this afternoon, as all too often the last one faildd to | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
turn up to this house to accept scrutiny or difficult questhons like | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
this or the bedroom tax. I welcome again the decision he took hn his | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
first day in the job to stop the plans to take personal independence | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
payments away from people unable to dress themselves or use the toilet | :52:53. | :52:58. | |
unaided. I also welcome the fact that in the same speech the | :52:59. | :53:00. | |
Secretary of State said there would be" no more welfare cuts". But Mr | :53:01. | :53:06. | |
Speaker, I will deplore the fact he must have known, even as he made | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
that statement, that the dedpest cuts had Audie been made. The cuts | :53:11. | :53:18. | |
from DLA to PIP, the cuts to the work programme, the cuts to | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
universal credit, all those sharp incisions had already been lade but | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
the effect had yet to be felt. Now, a few months down the line, the pain | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
is evident and the harm is clear and can be measured in the widening gap | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
in employment between disabled people and the wider population | :53:39. | :53:45. | |
Will my honourable friend ghveaway? Can he take a step back frol the | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
rhetoric and look at the factor moment. Have we not welcomed 36 ,000 | :53:49. | :53:54. | |
more people in work over thd last three years and 3.3 million in | :53:55. | :54:00. | |
total, will he not welcome that I welcome every job that is provided | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
for a disabled person in thhs country and I welcome every | :54:06. | :54:08. | |
opportunity for disabled people to get into work. But the facts are | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
that the Government has gond backwards on the target for disabled | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
people, when our government, the Labour government, left offhce | :54:18. | :54:23. | |
disabled employment gap with that 28%. Today it is 34%. That hs an | :54:24. | :54:30. | |
increase in these sides of the disabled gap, the gaps betwden | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
ordinary, able-bodied peopld in this country in work and disabled people. | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
That is the truth of their circumstance. What a ridiculous | :54:39. | :54:47. | |
point to make, the gap betwden able-bodied and disabled people | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
that is 34%. Increasing on his watch, increasing under this | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
government. I will give the Secretary of State... I will give | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
away the moment. I will givd the Secretary of State and his | :55:01. | :55:02. | |
government 's credit where ht is due. I credit them for setthng this | :55:03. | :55:08. | |
difficult target, to halve the disabled Persons implement gap. It | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
was a clear pledge in their manifesto at the last electhon. On | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
page 19 it says they will h`lve the disability implement gap, transform | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
policy practice in public attitudes so hundreds of thousands more | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
disabled people who can and want to work will find deployment. Lr | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
Speaker... I will give way hn a moment, that is a laudable `im. -- | :55:31. | :55:37. | |
find employment. Labour fully agrees that if disabled people are able to | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
find work and want to find work we should do everything we can to in | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
courage and assist them to do so and it would be good for all of us. Good | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
for them to be in work, good for us socially for workplaces to be more | :55:51. | :55:56. | |
integrated, rounded places. Good for us economically. Reducing that gap | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
by 10% will add ?45 billion to our GDP by 2030. But a year latdr, | :56:02. | :56:07. | |
unfortunately, from that promise, it has to be said the Government is | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
either reneging on that prolise or just failing to take the action to | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
meet it. Because though the volume of people currently employed in this | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
country who are not disabled stand that 80%, those people who `re | :56:22. | :56:28. | |
disabled is just that 46%, `s I said a moment ago, a gap of 34%. The | :56:29. | :56:34. | |
Commons library, the resolution foundation, the TUC, all of the | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
analysis showed the Governmdnt is making little or no progress towards | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
that target. They will need to get 1.5 million disabled people into | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
work to hit that target. Now I cannot see, on the current state of | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
activity by this government, Howell in a month of Sundays they `re going | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
to achieve that target. I c`nnot see how even... I will in a momdnt. . | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
How even they are going to get it back to where it was under the last | :57:03. | :57:08. | |
Labour government, at 28%. Ht is the worst performance by this government | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
than the last Labour governlent What is worse than that, it is | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
becoming more difficult for disabled people to get into work and stay in | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
work, because of the cuts they are making, which I will discuss next | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
ones I have given away here and enter my honourable friend. | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
I thank the honourable gentleman to giving way. Isn't it true under the | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
last Labour government by the time someone was 26 years of age there | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
were four times more likely as a disabled person to be out of work | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
than under this Conservativd government? | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
I have just said repeatedly that the last Labour government was | :57:44. | :57:46. | |
performing better, on the tdrms of the disabled persons employlent act | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
than this current government and I will say so again. | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
Is my honourable friend as concerned as I am about the effect of the | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
Government's welfare changes? Have they had the effect they have had an | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
access to the mobility car scheme and how many people have had their | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
application for advanced rate mobility component of it turns down? | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
And after many months and the loss of their car, they have had that | :58:17. | :58:22. | |
decision reverse because of problems with the assessment procedure in the | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
first place? This affects their ability to get to work, to hold down | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
a job, to keep that job. Of course it does, my honourable | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
friend is absolutely right. First among the cuts I would like to | :58:36. | :58:39. | |
discuss, the cuts that, Kimlich enormously more difficult for | :58:40. | :58:42. | |
disabled people to get into work and stay in work is the cuts to PIP PIP | :58:43. | :58:47. | |
is a system of support for disabled people, to help them deal whth the | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
extra costs of being disabldd, to help them play a full part hn life, | :58:53. | :58:57. | |
including going to work. 3.4 million people will be an PIP eventtally, | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
when they are all shifted across from Labour's disability living | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
allowance. As I said earlier, the Secretary of State Balk to taking | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
?1.2 million out of PIP with the changes to the eligibility criteria, | :59:13. | :59:15. | |
in terms of washing and dressing, but he knew he had made ?2 billion | :59:16. | :59:20. | |
in savings by typing the crhteria between DLA and PIP. One of the | :59:21. | :59:26. | |
crucial ways in which he tightened the criteria, his predecessor, was | :59:27. | :59:33. | |
in respect of the mobility component of PIP versus DLA. Cruciallx the | :59:34. | :59:37. | |
change between the measuremdnt as to how mobile people are, shifting it | :59:38. | :59:42. | |
from 50 metres, people being able to walk, to 20 metres. The effdct of | :59:43. | :59:47. | |
that was quite simply to me`n fewer people would be eligible for the | :59:48. | :59:53. | |
mobility component. And the subsequent result in that h`s been | :59:54. | :59:59. | |
17,000 specially adapted motor ability cars removed... There's | :00:00. | :00:05. | |
Secretary of State says I h`ve my stats wrong, can tell us wh`t he | :00:06. | :00:09. | |
thinks the stats are tomorrow. I'm going to say what the muscular | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
dystrophy Association say about it. They, I think, have interest in this | :00:14. | :00:16. | |
and are deeply concerned about the fact that they say the facts are | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
between 4-500 specially adapted cars a week are being taken away from | :00:22. | :00:31. | |
disabled people. 400-500. That is an extraordinary statement. I said to | :00:32. | :00:34. | |
the Secretary of State, does he think that is right question mark | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
even for a second that it is cost-effective for 400-500 cars a | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
week that in specially adapted to be taken away? More importantlx, what | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
does he think about the imp`ct on real people? I mentioned thd | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
muscular dystrophy Associathon. They highlighted this morning a woman | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
called Sarah, aged 29 from Norfolk who has myotonic dystrophy, which | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
means her muscles are progrdssively wasting. Sarah works as a ntrse in | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
her local hospital nonetheldss, a job for which she needs a specially | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
adapted car to get to work. We could all celebrate that, were it not for | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
the fact the DWP has taken `way her car. Sarah says the 20 metrd rule | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
doesn't assess how someone's mobility is affected by thehr | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
condition. Occasionally she may be able to walk 20 metres but on other | :01:23. | :01:29. | |
days maybe she could fall. She could choose not to work, but as ` nurse | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
she think she makes a difference in her role and it seems like the DWP | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
is trying to stop her from doing so. That is the human effect, Mr | :01:38. | :01:44. | |
Speaker, of the changes the Secretary of State is oversdeing. I | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
give way. I wonder if he would also rdtract | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
his choice of words earlier on, in separating hard-working people like | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
Sarah of Norfolk, from other in his words "Ordinary workers". | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
That was a slip of my tongud and I regret making that mistake that we | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
should be extremely carefully with the language we use and I dhdn't | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
mean to imply what was adjusting I implied. | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
Does my honourable friend agree there is a duty to monitor the | :02:19. | :02:26. | |
impact of PIP roll out, givdn the projection of 55,000 people were | :02:27. | :02:34. | |
predicted to lose their mobhlity? I think it is shameful the | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
Government is refusing to properly monitor this. It is clear to all of | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
us in this place that if people lose the cards that allow them to get to | :02:43. | :02:45. | |
work, it will make it harder for them to stay in work or to seek | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
implement. That seems to me to be as plain as the nose on the Secretary | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
of State's face. I asked hil, does he really think for a second that | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
taking Sarah's motor abilitx car from her helps or hinders hhs | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
mission to halve the disability implement gap? It seems to le he | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
should know the answer to that. I say to him, look again at this, | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
bring forward the review of PIP Look in particular at this 20 metre | :03:15. | :03:21. | |
rule, look what capita are doing in their management of this is and | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
reformat, because it is not working. People like Sarah are paying the | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
price. Isn't the real problem here | :03:31. | :03:38. | |
dehumanising that process for a lot of people question why this isn t | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
about human beings or seeing the full potential of human beings, is | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
about treating people as nulbers? My honourable friend is completely | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
right. The truth, and we all know it, is there were a set of targets, | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
savings to be made from the Social Security budget, set by the | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
Chancellor, passed down the road to Caxton house and they have set about | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
carving up disabled people's benefits in order to make those | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
targets, and it is frankly shameful that people are being trackdd | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
through this process, treatdd poorly during this process, demeandd by the | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
process and at the end of it being less likely to stay in work or find | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
work. I think that is very clear. I will give way in a moment. Just a | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
few more points about universal credit and then I will happhly give | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
way to a former minister for disabled people. | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
Lets move on to the Work Allowance because that's another way the | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
government is penalising people in work. 1 million low-paid disabled | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
people will be on Universal Credit when it is fully rolled out, and | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
thanks to the cuts to be work allowances that this Secret`ry of | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
State introduced they will `ll be ?2000 a year or thereabouts worse | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
off than they are presently. What does the Secretary of State think | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
that cut will do to the lifd chances of those people? What does he think | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
it does to achieve his misshon of halving the disability gap? Does it | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
make them more or less likely to stay in work if they are earning | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
less? I think I know the answer to those questions, Madame Peng Kaikai | :05:17. | :05:19. | |
Speaker, which is why Labour is clear that we will reverse those | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
cuts -- Madame Deputy Speakdr. The facts are the government spends | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
?15 billion a year on benefhts to support people with disabilhties and | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
health conditions. Does the honourable gentleman not want to | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
turn his speech on to how to reform the system rather than harkhng on | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
about how much money is spent? I think he knows better than that | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
I've already said literally 20 seconds ago one thing I would do to | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
reform the system, reverse the cuts to the work allowances and Tniversal | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
Credit which would clearly lake work pay for 1 million disabled people in | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
this country, I would start there. There are a myriad other thhngs I'd | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
mention in my speech about what the Government could do. One thhng I | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
would do would be to reversd the cut to support for disabled students, | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
because getting qualifications for disabled students is even more | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
important than it is for non-disabled people in this country. | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
This summer disabled students will be looking at their options, | :06:21. | :06:22. | |
considering whether they can afford to go on to higher education, and | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
they will be grossly disappointed, Madame Deputy Speaker, to ldarn the | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
Government has already made it harder for them to do so by its | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
decision to cut the disabilhty student allowance, which supports | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
nearly 70,000 disabled highdr education seats. I will makd this | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
point. Can the Secretary of State tell us how many fewer disabled | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
students will go to univershty this September? I would be interdsted to | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
know. I'm not sure they gather statistics about that but it would | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
be good to know whether the cutting of that grant will mean fewdr | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
disabled students go to university. And can he explain how putthng up | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
barriers to disabled students is again going to help his mission to | :07:06. | :07:12. | |
halve the disability employlent gap? But the biggest barrier this | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
Government has raised beford disabled people seeking to dnter the | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
workplace are of course the cuts to be work-related activity group under | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
the Employment Support Allowance. This, Madame Deputy Speaker, is a | :07:23. | :07:30. | |
cut of around ?1500 a year for 500,000 stable to people for whom | :07:31. | :07:32. | |
the government is supposed to be helping into the work. | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
On glad my honourable friend has mentioned the cuts to the Elployment | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
Support Allowance and the f`ct it will affect 500,000 disabled people | :07:42. | :07:49. | |
to the cost of ?1500 a year. But of course those measures were only | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
passed by this parliament when the former Secretary of State g`ve an | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
assurance to this house, particularly to the members on his | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
side, that there would be a White Paper on a future settlement package | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
for disabled people before the summer recess. That doesn't appear | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
to be coming. Is he as disappointed as I am? | :08:11. | :08:12. | |
I'm deeply disappointed and I suspect lots of honourable lember is | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
on the benches opposite, lots of whom were sold the ESA cuts | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
explicitly on the promise that the White Paper would come throtgh, will | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
be deeply disappointed, and I may find in my speech that I mentioned a | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
few of them in a couple of linutes time. I will make more progress and | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
give way in a minute. Let's talk about ESA. Here is what the experts, | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
not MPs in this place, think about the cuts to ESA and how that will | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
affect employability. Parkinson s Disease a. The cut will push people | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
with Parkinson's Disease and further from the workplace. Muscular | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
dystrophy society. They say it will widen the disability employlent gap | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
rather than reduce it. Mind's Chief Executive Paul Farmer: employment of | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
ill and disabled people will be motivated into work if therd are | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
benefits are cut business gtided and insulting. Madame Deputy Spdaker, I | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
couldn't agree more, it is grossly insulting to disabled peopld. I know | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
that many backbenchers opposite feel the same because that is whx they | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
were so loath to give their votes to the government on the ESA ctt will | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
stop in fact, any of them... I will finish the point forced manx of them | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
did so a specifically because the Government promised to beef up | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
support for disabled people. I will quote a few then give way to the | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
honourable member. First I will quote the member for South | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
Cambridgeshire, because she said before abstaining on the vote: to | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
secure my trust I need to bdlieve in the White Paper, 100 million goes | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
some way to help those people, that's my warning shot to the | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
Government. The member for Stafford said: the White Paper is incredibly | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
important to the matter we `re discussing because it's the | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
replacement for what the Government are proposing to remove, and the | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
member for Mid Bedfordshire who said: I was about to vote against | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
the ESA cuts when the previous Secretary of State sought md out | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
personally and angrily beggdd me not to and promised he was introducing a | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
White Paper guaranteeing more easily accessible benefits for people who | :10:17. | :10:23. | |
are disabled in this countrx. I will give way over there and then I will | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
give way here. The Shadow Secretary of State | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
mentioned experts and descended into partisanship, so I thought H might | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
bring it back to the experts. Has not yet mentioned the report, so I | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
thought I might ask about what his views are on that. They talked about | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
a lot of aspects of employmdnt support for disabled people and | :10:46. | :10:47. | |
highlighted positive aspects of the Access to Work scheme and s`id it | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
should be transformed from being the best kept secret in governmdnt to | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
being a recognised transport to successful employment and the | :10:57. | :10:58. | |
government should double thd number of people it helps, does he agree | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
and how should the government go about achieving it? | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
I agree with lots of it but the truth is I've been describing | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
nothing but cuts, the shift between the work programme and work and | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
health programme involves an 80 cut in support Access to Work is this | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
year treating fewer people dealing with fewer people than last year. | :11:20. | :11:26. | |
31,000 versus 34,000. That's the facts and you must check thdm. Fit | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
for Work, the Secretary of State when he was the Secretary of State | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
for Wales welcomed Fit for Work and he has scrapped it in my | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
constituency. It's another scheme meant to be helping people `s | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
described but it has been ctt on their watch and that's the truth of | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
the matter. Where is the fabled White Paper? Where is the one we | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
have been waiting for all of these months? Perhaps the honourable | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
gentleman knows where they have it hidden and he can tell us about it. | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
I'm grateful for the shadow work minister giving way. It is worth | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
noting, as he talks about how strong feelings are on these benchds and | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
how much compassion there is around the issue trying to get dis`bled | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
people into work, that therd are twice the members on these benches | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
to discuss this. His backbenches have gone down to single figures to | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
support him in this debate `nd that says quite a lot. | :12:22. | :12:29. | |
Although global comments like that don't help the debate, this is a | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
serious debate and I'm taking it extremely seriously on behalf of the | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
Labour front bench and I wotld expect better from even Torx | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
backbenchers than that sort of nonsense. Where is the Whitd Paper | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
we have been expecting? I whll tell you. The form employment minister, I | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
think she is former, she max be on the front bench still, I never see | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
her any more, too busy camp`igning outside this house on Europd, I | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
would think. She promised the White Paper by the spring and then the | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
Secretary of State's predecdssor turned spring into summer and this | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
Secretary of State has gone one better and turned a White P`per into | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
a green paper, kicking down the road urgency, clarity, specificity, it's | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
another insult to disabled people who are seeing their incomes cut, | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
seeing their motor ability vehicles taken away. In my view Madale Deputy | :13:20. | :13:28. | |
Speaker it is yet another insult. After knocking disabled people from | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
pillar to post with cuts to ESA PIP, Universal Credit, studdnt | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
grants, to the work programle, Secretary of State, for one of his | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
warm words, he's putting legislation to put some of these right on the | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
back burner. That's the unddniable truth of shifting it from a White | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
Paper to a green paper. It hs failing disabled people. Madame | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
Deputy Speaker, on the side of the House Her Majesty's loyal opposition | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
will support this government when we think they are getting things right | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
but we will stand up and be counted when they are getting things wrong. | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
We will applaud the establishment of this bold and vicious target to | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
assist disabled people into work. But we will call it a lie and a | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
cruel lie if that promise is revealed as a pipe dream without the | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
resources and the will to m`ke it come true. Madame Deputy Spdaker, | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
the Secretary of State says he wants to start a new dialogue with | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
disabled people. Well, we are waiting to hear it. More | :14:33. | :14:35. | |
importantly, he says he intdnds to make a difference and halve the gap | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
in employment that they facd. Well, I'm waiting to see it. | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
The question is as on the order paper, Secretary of State, Lr | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
Stephen Crabb. Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker | :14:52. | :14:58. | |
It's a pleasure to follow on from the honourable member for | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
Pontypridd. Let me start by saying that this house is at its bdst when | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
it seeks to speak as far as possible with one voice. There have been | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
times in the past when this house has sought to speak with ond voice | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
and no more so than in the `rea of disability. That's when we get the | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
best response from organisations who represent disabled people, disabled | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
people themselves, and they respect that. The tone the honourable | :15:25. | :15:26. | |
gentleman has struck this afternoon is entirely opposite to that and I | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
regret the way that he has sought to go about his business this | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
afternoon. Partisan tone. I know he thinks this style of opposition | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
works for him, he thinks it works for him on Twitter, but for those | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
organisations representing disabled people and disabled people | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
themselves, they will be very disappointed with the tone struck by | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
the honourable gentleman. M`dame Deputy Speaker, under this | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
government are country has seen the highest levels of employment ever | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
with 2.5 million more peopld in work than six years ago. Had we know that | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
for many disabled people th`t want to work, who could work, thd | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
unquestionable improvement hn our labour market in recent years and | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
historic levels of unemploylent still don't ring true when ht comes | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
to their own circumstances `nd outlook for the future. That's | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
partly a legacy of the systdm we inherited as a government and goes | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
back to the days of one of ly predecessors John Hutton, who said | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
in his changes, in his reforms, that he wanted to see 1 million lore | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
disabled people get back to work. The truth is that never happened. | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
Instead, far too many sick `nd disabled people were parked on | :16:39. | :16:41. | |
benefits with neither the correct support from the health service or | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
from job centres. That's wh`t happened under Labour and it has | :16:46. | :16:47. | |
been happening in the last six years. I made it clear in mx first | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
statement to the House following appointment in March that I'm | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
ambitious for disabled people and ambitious for the support they | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
receive. I'm ambitious for Britain to become the best country hn the | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
world to live if you are a disabled person. A country that provhdes the | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
right kind of support to le`d as full and as active a life as | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
possible. The country, for dxample, that is a world leader in assistive | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
technologies and will transform independence at home, will transform | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
the working environments of people with disabilities. The country in | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
which employers embrace and embed this ability as a core component of | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
their business, and in which people have the same opportunities to get a | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
job and share in the asperity of a growing economy. | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
He has chided my honourable friend for the tone of his opening remarks | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
but would the Secretary of State recognise that the organisations | :17:41. | :17:42. | |
representing disabled peopld are unanimously opposed to the scale of | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
the cuts in support that his government has introduced? | :17:48. | :17:54. | |
I have a huge amount of respect for the honourable member. The truth is | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
that in real terms we are increasing the support that we are givhng to | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
disabled people. By the end of this parliament we will still be spending | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
around ?50 billion supporting people with long-term health conditions and | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
with disabilities. I struggle to understand how the Secretarx of | :18:16. | :18:17. | |
State could suggest that in real terms the support for disabhlity | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
benefits has gone up when if somebody currently on ESA and is in | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
receipt of ESA goes into work but falls out they lose access to be ?30 | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
a week, so how can he say that when he's looking at a person centred | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
approach to this debate? The truth is we can get onto this | :18:35. | :18:42. | |
later in the debate. ESA has not worked in the way intended when the | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
Ruby is Labour government sdt it up. When my predecessor John Hutton set | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
that up and created ESA it was with a view of seeing 1 million people | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
with disabilities and long term health problems get back into work | :18:56. | :18:58. | |
and it hasn't done anything like that. The truth is that for those | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
people in the work-related `ctivity group, we believe there are better | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
ways to get them the support and help them back into work. And that | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
there are not the incentives in place to see... I will give way one | :19:12. | :19:18. | |
more time and then make progress. Can he tell me what percent`ge of | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
the workforce in this country have got disabilities? What percdntage | :19:23. | :19:25. | |
have disabilities in the workforce? Various different ways of mdasuring | :19:26. | :19:35. | |
it, but one in six people h`ve a disability. I will explain why those | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
figures will go up, in terms of demographic changes and the | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
challenges they present to ts as a society. I think it is the lark of | :19:43. | :19:49. | |
our ambition that we tried to halve the disability employment g`p, that | :19:50. | :19:52. | |
is the right vision to have, but we are under no doubt the challenges | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
are profound and complex. The employment rate for those not | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
disabled is currently 80%, for disabled people it is 47%. That is | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
not just a gap of 33 percentage points but a gap in the lifd chances | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
of disabled people up and down the country, a gap that has persisted | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
for too long. The barriers disabled people have built up many ydars and | :20:15. | :20:22. | |
it will take time to them down. But I'm clear that for far too long too | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
many have not had the right support all be given the opportunitx right | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
opportunity to work, put on benefits, cast aside and forgotten | :20:29. | :20:30. | |
about. I don't believe that is good enough. I will make some progress | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
before I give way. Emerging out of this past Vandevelde potenthal there | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
are encouraging signs those barriers are being dismantled and th`t | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
attitudes are changing. I w`s travelling home on the tube the | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
other night and saw this advert promoting a career with Shell. That | :20:45. | :20:53. | |
advert made it clear that Shall recognises the more diverse and | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
inclusive, the better the ideas and it drives innovation. The advert | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
shows how a disabled person is as much a part of the company process | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
than any other recruit. It shouldn't be a bolt on or extra, they are in | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
search of pioneers and of rdmarkable people. For me this was as luch a | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
wider advert for houses IT hs changing how disabled peopld argued, | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
no longer patronised or dimhnished but a core component of a wdll | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
performing business and divdrse and successful society. I see in here | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
this change for myself when I meet with imply is, charities and | :21:36. | :21:43. | |
disabled themselves. Hearing from people at disabled charity | :21:44. | :21:45. | |
consortium and yesterday I had the pleasure to visit the consthtuency | :21:46. | :21:48. | |
of their member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark, where I visited a | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
microbrewery, where all the info use have learning disabilities. | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
Thank you for giving way and visiting my constituency. Does he | :22:01. | :22:08. | |
not think this house has bedn misled about the programme for next year, | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
at the same time that he is on the cut is going to be delivered? Would | :22:13. | :22:21. | |
it not be more fair to wait for the programme to be delivered? | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
I don't think the House was misled. The money has been made avahlable | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
from the Treasury. I have dhscussed it with the Chancellor. That money | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
is there. What I have taken the decision to do is to take a step | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
back and work much more closely with disability organisations thdmselves, | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
disabled people, and rather than rush to push out a white paper, | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
actually talk to those organisations who know their best. And work in a | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
new spirit, to actually work up some proposals that we know will make a | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
long-term difference. That decision I've taken to perhaps not rtsh ahead | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
with the white paper and do it far more collaboratively as a green | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
paper has been welcomed by the organisations that I've been | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
speaking to. He talks about the importance of | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
having the right support for young people, or people with a le`rning | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
disability. Often young people with a learning disability tell le | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
transition from 16 to mainstream college can be particularly | :23:24. | :23:25. | |
challenging for them, particularly if they want to go into employment. | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
Would he join me In supporthng organisations like Dove house who | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
want to do more to help special schools support students right | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
through to 19, to make sure young people have the support thex need to | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
get into employment? My right honourable friend hs a | :23:44. | :23:46. | |
former minister in the Department for Work and Pensions and m`kes a | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
very important point. It is an organisation I would love to hear | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
more from. That period of transition is absolutely crucial. Thosd | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
charities, and we all have them in our constituencies, they ard often | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
the ones with more expertisd than anyone else, work day by dax in | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
localised communities, supporting people with disabilities. Wd need to | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
hear far more from organisations like that. The pride and passion I | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
saw yesterday among the staff at that social enterprise, employing | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
people with learning disabilities and that wonderful communitx of | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
Bermondsey was a model for motivation for supporting pdople | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
with disabilities. These positive experiences are reflected in the | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
figures. Over the last two xears alone, 365,000 more disabled people | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
are in work. That is a huge achievement, but that progrdss | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
hasn't translated into a narrowing of the disability employment gap, | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
largely because of the growth across the labour market generally. The gap | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
is only going to close when we see a faster increase in the rate of | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
employment growth among people with disabilities, and across thd economy | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
generally. That is how you close the The Shadow Secretary of State law | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
states lauded the fact on p`per at least the disability act with | :25:04. | :25:10. | |
narrower under Labour, that is because unemployment was so`ring | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
across the economy. That is not the way you close the disabilitx | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
employment gap. What we havd to do is harness the positive progress | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
across the economy, and makd sure that people with disabilitids and | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
long-term health conditions are at the front of the queue for | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
benefiting from those changds in the economy. | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
I am very pleased my right honourable friend has come onto this | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
point. Does this not echo what we need to do in the broader point | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
about life chances, not foctsed on an imaginary line but focushng on | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
the real underlying factors? My honourable friend makes `n | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
important broader point abott how we look at poverty and disadvantage. I | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
think we have come a long w`y, as the Government, and across society, | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
understanding poverty. It is not just about chasing after a target on | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
paper, it's about understanding what's going on behind the scenes | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
and running down into root causes. The disability employment g`p is | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
national, but the support and solutions I believe are verx often | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
local. I know many members on both sides of this house are doing really | :26:17. | :26:18. | |
excellent work to encourage and support disabled people to love into | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
work within their own constituencies. One of thosd ways is | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
from holding reverse jobs f`irs These are important events to meet | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
employers with specialist dhsability organisations and help create | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
long-term job opportunities for disabled job-seekers. Job cdntres up | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
and down the country are also on the front line, supporting disabled | :26:40. | :26:42. | |
people moving to work. We'rd more than doubling number of dis`bility | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
job advisers to provide specialist and local expertise to help disabled | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
people enter employment. Can I commend him for the tone with | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
which he is approaching this debate. One category he hasn't menthoned is | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
those who are suffering frol long-term mental health conditions | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
who are getting back into work. Can I commend to him recommendation | :27:07. | :27:09. | |
seven of the independent mental health task force, which talks about | :27:10. | :27:17. | |
the DWP working... It says to direct funds currently used to support | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
people on employment support allowance to commission evidence | :27:23. | :27:24. | |
-based health led interventhons in order to help its people with | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
long-term mental health conditions back into work. | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
My honourable friend makes ` very important point. I am clear, as is | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
my whole ministerial team at the Department. The challenge of mental | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
health is enormous, profound and we actually have to do far mord to | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
understand it and its inter`ction in terms of employment. We will be | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
spending tens of millions of pounds in the coming years on pilots to try | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
and understand what are the interventions that can make a | :27:58. | :27:59. | |
positive difference for people with mental health. We are deterlined to | :28:00. | :28:06. | |
see positive change in that. We are expanding access to work so 25, 00 | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
more disabled people by 2020 will be helped with additional costs they | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
face from working. We are ensuring disabled people are part of our | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
plans to increase apprenticdships, with an accessible approach should | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
task force providing advice on how potential apprenticeships for those | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
with disability than impairlents can take them up. | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
Just on the point on access to work on the fact we are increasing | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
spending to it, that increase spending will be of little value if | :28:36. | :28:42. | |
it remains the best kept secret in the DWP. How can the insure the most | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
van and smallest businesses who would benefit the most, hear about | :28:48. | :28:50. | |
it and gain the full value of that scheme? | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
There is a slightly glib answer I could give, in terms of there is a | :28:56. | :28:58. | |
role for all of us in this house of promoting access to work in our | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
communities and constituenches. But there is a broader challengd for the | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
Department and the ministers, in terms of how we get information | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
about that out and it is solething my honourable friend, the Mhnister | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
for disabled people, is takhng a lead on and we'll referred to in his | :29:14. | :29:20. | |
closing remarks later. Can the Secretary of State dxplain | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
why the number of disabled people supported out of work is more than | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
under the Labour government and when he will publish the number of | :29:30. | :29:32. | |
figures for young disabled people who are supported with a 10 million | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
fund, which was meant to be dedicated for placements, work | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
placement, voluntary placemdnt question at I thank you for your | :29:42. | :29:43. | |
question. I don't have the specific fhgures to | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
hand, but I heard a voice in my ear from my colleague, the disability | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
minister, saying the figures are not correct. Patton his closing remarks | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
he can respond directly. I will give way one more time. | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
I am grateful to the Secret`ry of State for giving way. He made the | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
point about apparent and I was interested to hear on the Mhnister | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
of skills recently on the possibility of adapting the | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
framework to those with dis`bilities and learning difficulties. We had a | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
cross-party debate recently about autism. Does my friend agredd people | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
with autism could offer a good way forward if they are properlx design? | :30:26. | :30:33. | |
We have this accessible apprenticeship task force which will | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
be reporting to my honourable friend, the Minister for disability. | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
That is being chaired by thd MP for Blackpool who has a deep level of | :30:42. | :30:47. | |
experience and expertise on these issues. Autism, I'm sure, whll be | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
one of those issues we do look at. We are embedding implement `dvice to | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
help support people with mental health conditions to get tahlored | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
implement advice and supporting disabled entrepreneurs throtgh the | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
new enterprise allowance. More than 16,000 businesses being set up by | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
people with disabilities and long-term health conditions since | :31:12. | :31:14. | |
2011. Only today I was readhng about a deaf person in Gloucester who has | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
been helped by the new enterprise allowance, who set up a carpentry | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
business. That person is no longer on benefits, has joined the many | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
thousands of other small business entrepreneurs who are so important | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
to our economy. These are practical measures we are taking to m`ke a | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
difference for disabled people, but the scale of the challenge we face | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
demands a broader response. The scale of the challenge is | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
demonstrated in the forecast, in the way our demographics are ch`nging | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
fast more and more of us of working age will be living with somd kind of | :31:45. | :31:47. | |
health condition in the futtre that will need to be managed for us to | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
stay healthy and work. Around 1 million people of working age are | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
already living with at least one long-term condition. That is | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
forecast to rise. I will give way soon. Mental health problems are | :32:00. | :32:02. | |
also rising, particularly for younger people. Around one hn six | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
working people has a mental health condition, which rises to one in | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
four of job-seekers claimants and almost half of those receivhng ESA. | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
Lifestyle factors such as sloking and obesity mean the proportion of | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
the working population with significant health conditions like | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
diabetes and heart disease hs likely to increase. | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
On the point of getting people into work, is there any monitoring being | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
done, as to how many people get into work our store in that job one year | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
later? Sustainability is just as important as getting the job in the | :32:40. | :32:41. | |
first That is a very important pohnt that | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
the honourable lady mentions. We are doing that and particularly | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
interested in doing that with people with disabilities, but more broadly | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
with our universal credit rdforms, that is one of the things wd will be | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
doing for people generally loving off benefits. The support doesn t | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
end the day you find a job, the support carries on, to ensure the | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
employment is sustainable. On top of the standing barriers there are | :33:07. | :33:13. | |
serious demographic changes which require serious, long-term cross | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
sector solutions. No single policy or initiative for my departlent or | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
any other department will sdrvice a silver bullet to immediatelx closed | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
and sealed the disability ilplement gap. We will only make the strides | :33:25. | :33:27. | |
we want to see by working differently, by working in ` | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
collaborative way. Yes with the health service and the health care | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
system but also with Local Authorities, implies, charities and | :33:36. | :33:38. | |
voluntary organisations. We need to listen to and speak with those who | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
know what support will work best and that is disabled people thelselves. | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
That is why I announced we would publish a green paper later this | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
year to do just that. I makd no apology for taking the time to | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
ensure we get such important reforms right, reforms have the potdntial to | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
transform so many lives. It's important to build consensus, to | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
seek the views and the support of those individuals and those groups | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
involved. It is about understanding what works with groups who perhaps | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
have not been heard of enough so far, such as smaller local | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
organisations who have a lot of expertise and understanding of what | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
works on the ground, and importantly groups such as employers, to look | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
seriously at the role they have to support and help disabled pdople | :34:22. | :34:22. | |
that they employ. I am grateful to him. He will know | :34:23. | :34:34. | |
the work done by the charitx in my organisation which is colle`gue the | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
Minister for disabilities attended a recent video, that they havd | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
produced of people who went back to work. Would he agree with them and | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
me that there might well be opportunities to attract more | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
smaller employers to taking on people with disabilities if there | :34:48. | :34:50. | |
was a tax break on national insurance in the same way as there | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
is a tax break on apprenticdships for small employers at the loment? | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
It is exactly those kinds of incentives that I am hoping the | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
process will explore. Those are exactly kind of ideas that we need | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
to be examining and obviously the Treasury and my colleagues hn the | :35:09. | :35:11. | |
Treasury will take an interdst in that but we have got to think | :35:12. | :35:13. | |
differently right across government if we are to have any hope of | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
closing the disability employment gap. I am keen to see more small | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
businesses think about what they can do to employ more people with | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
disabilities. I applaud the aspiration for consensus th`t the | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
secretary have state has set out a couple of times now in his speech | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
but doesn't he recognise th`t you would achieve a consensus against a | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
backdrop of such huge cuts hn support for disabled people. The | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
Chancellor tried it again at the last budget. When the government is | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
cutting support so much he will not achieve the consensus that he | :35:48. | :35:54. | |
rightly wants to achieve. I do hear the point that the right Honourable | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
gentleman is making. We had that question earlier and I made the | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
point that by the end of thhs parliament we will still be spending | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
more in real terms supporting people with disabilities, but what I would | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
like in my aspirations by the end of the parliament, we are spending in a | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
much more effective way to transform lives. This new approach is not just | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
about changing the way disabled people are supported to movd into | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
work but how the helps to stay and work. A disabled person may make the | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
breakthrough into work alre`dy apparently fall out of work onto | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
sickness benefits and soon `fter. Tens of thousands of disabldd people | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
do so every few months. I completely agree with the resolution | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
foundation's report this wedk that highlighted the need for more focus | :36:39. | :36:41. | |
on supporting disabled people in work as well as those moving into | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
work. Prevention and early support will be key to this. That is why we | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
are supporting people to st`y in work and try and prevent thdm from | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
becoming ill in the first place That is why we are investing a | :36:53. | :36:55. | |
further billion pounds per xear in mental health care in the NHS to | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
support 1 million more people to secure high primary care. I believe | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
that our Green paper has thd potential to be a historic | :37:06. | :37:07. | |
opportunity to harness and build on the changes we have seen for | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
disabled people. It is only through this approach of working with | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
employers and disabled people themselves and the NHS and book | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
authorities that we can build a strategy that will work to lake a | :37:18. | :37:19. | |
difference to people's lives, to keep them in work as well as helping | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
to support the many, many more of them into employment. Thank you very | :37:25. | :37:32. | |
much. I am grateful to have the opportunity to contribute to this | :37:33. | :37:35. | |
debate and I can't congratulate the honourable member for securhng this | :37:36. | :37:41. | |
debate is today. We agree whth the government aim of having thd | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
disability employment gap btt we are serious concerns about the `ctions | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
they are taking supposedly towards achieving that. With just three and | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
half years in which to achidve the goal they are failing. The | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
resolution foundation estim`ted that in order to have the gap by 202 it | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
would require supporting 1.4 million disabled people into work. H agree | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
with what the resolution fotndation has to say in yesterday's rdport | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
when they highlight that work is not right for everyone, and that the | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
government could damage the Haynes by pushing work at all costs and | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
that there is an opportunitx however in the discussions on health and | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
work. We on these benches h`ve said on numerous occasions that during | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
and since the passage of thd welfare reform in work act that the | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
government is doing things hn the wrong order and as a result are | :38:29. | :38:35. | |
harming their own objectives. They cut off support for the SA rank and | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
for universal credit and we are now going to be waiting even longer | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
before the -- before the replacement system is up and running. I welcome | :38:45. | :38:51. | |
the reference to the frustr`tion in the delay over the long prolised | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
White Paper but what I remahn sceptical about -- while irony | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
sceptical about the intentions of the government's change of heart I | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
welcome the Green paper on health and work questioning their hs a | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
genuine consultation process and genuine listening on the | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
government's part in the genuine investment in the resulting service. | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
But why wasn't that done before the cut to yes a rack and beford the cut | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
to universal credit work allowance? You now not so new Secretarx of | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
State must very quickly set out a timetable for the Green papdr | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
consultation and publication. We cannot allow the green paper to | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
follow the white paper. We hn the SNP are deeply concerned th`t the | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
libel time to make progress on disability employment is behng lost | :39:38. | :39:44. | |
as a result of this delay. ,- that valuable time. The green paper | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
should be brought forward urgently with real engagement from the | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
community and voluntary sector to shake the new frameworks of the | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
Secretary of State must forlally make a statement of his intdntions | :39:55. | :39:57. | |
and layout a road map for the development of the new programme and | :39:58. | :40:00. | |
time frame. The resolution foundation also said yesterday that | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
benefits do not always equate to sustain employment in the government | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
policies focusing too much on getting people off benefits rhetoric | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
and not supporting people who are currently in employment to keep them | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
there. They have made a number of recommendations which I hopd will be | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
read and considered. The Secretary of State also rightly said that he | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
wanted to turn the discussion around Social Security away from statistics | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
and towards the people involved I have some people who are desperately | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
wanting to be listened to agreed for the cases to be raised todax. These | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
people highlight the issues being faced by disabled people thd whole | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
way through the Social Security access to employment and workplace | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
processes. The stories highlight how they are being let down. At the end | :40:50. | :40:52. | |
of last year I was contacted by a young woman with autism who was | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
being forced through round `fter round of assessment, form fhlling | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
and evidence offering. She was in receipt of PIP and had only just | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
recently taking part in the assessment process for PIP when she | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
was told she would need to go through a work capability assessment | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
and submit evidence in order to receive DSA which has been cut. She | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
had to compile and submit all the same evidence, a few short lonths | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
after the same government ddpartment had requested it. She had to go | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
through very similar and eqtally traumatic for her assessment | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
processes for the same department she had a few short months prior. | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
For anyone this would be in our people, and unnecessary burden and | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
result in increased anxiety. But for someone with autism this is | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
painfully dramatic. But most galling for me was that my constitudnt's | :41:43. | :41:50. | |
place on a placement was put under question due to a decision on ESA. | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
She would not be able to continue if he was -- if she had failed the W SA | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
and this is by removing ESA rank is so damaging to the prospect of those | :42:01. | :42:07. | |
on the cusp of finding clim`te. Some of them needs additional resources. | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
With autism, for instance, ` familiar taxi rather than the | :42:14. | :42:16. | |
daunting of potentially dangerous and unknown world of public | :42:17. | :42:19. | |
transport, to keep them on the training placement, which btilds the | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
confidence towards the workplace and the National Autistic Society has | :42:25. | :42:27. | |
said that the research shows that only 15% of autistic adults are in | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
full-time paid employment and they say that the government cannot rely | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
on improving economy alone to ensure that disabled people includhng | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
autistic people share the s`me implement opportunities everywhere. | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
I am very grateful to the Honourable gentleman. He is citing somd good | :42:47. | :42:48. | |
cases that he always does when this issue comes up. But does he not | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
agree that the underlying problem with the ESA is that only 1$ of | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
those on that programme werd actually finding themselves going | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
into work when 60% or more `ctually wanted to find work. The programme | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
simply was not working. Does he recognise that? It might absolutely | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
not what I also recognises that by cutting the support of you `re also | :43:10. | :43:12. | |
cutting access, the potenti`l access to work that is available for people | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
including my constituent I have just described. But also your putting the | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
cart before the horse. The change system should have been brotght | :43:23. | :43:25. | |
before this house for debatd and scrutiny before the cuts to ESA and | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
universal credit were applidd. It is ludicrous and we will now p`y the | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
price I suspect. Indeed, mencap have estimated that less than two in ten | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
people with a disability ard in employment, despite the esthmation | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
of eight in ten being able to work with the right support and the | :43:45. | :43:47. | |
majority want to work but there is a key phrase in the end that hs being | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
able to work with the right support. This is where there was criticism | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
from them. They say that thd support is not often available or those | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
giving that support often do not understand learning disabilhty. My | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
own nephew and his parents have been through the ringer to get stpport | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
for him almost all of his lhfe. He is approaching his 17th birthday and | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
is sitting his GCSEs in Lancashire, I wish him well as you goes through | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
that. He has several palsy, which limits his ability -- which lowers | :44:22. | :44:30. | |
his mobility but not as comlunity School, far from it. -- cerdbral | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
palsy. Getting a little support when he needs it and the right wheelchair | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
has been a constant fight for the family and now he is actress about | :44:39. | :44:41. | |
what happened as he transithons from school and into work. And hdre's | :44:42. | :44:48. | |
what he said when I asked hhm about getting the implement market. I am | :44:49. | :44:54. | |
not sure what I can ask abott an employer. For example if I want to | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
work in an Apple Store but `ll of the tables are too high to reach. | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
Can I ask the employer to m`ke tables accessible? I worry that | :45:02. | :45:03. | |
employers will choose anothdr applicant because they belidve it | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
will be easier to employ thd even if I have the best person for the job. | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
I would however like to say that when I went for the intervidw for an | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
apprenticeship at my school who are very supportive, but that m`y be | :45:16. | :45:18. | |
because they already know md and I have been there for the past five | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
years. What that tells me is the lack of confidence many dis`bled | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
people have about entering the implement market, my nephew is the | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
most gregarious, confident `nd engaging young man you could wish to | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
meet and yet he feels he will be held back from work. He feels | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
unsurprisingly because of the way he has had to fight for everything for | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
all of the support his whold life, that he will have to ask employers | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
for that helped. He will be a burden on his future employers bec`use of | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
his disability. And that will lead to him losing out. And that tells me | :45:52. | :45:55. | |
as it should ring loud and clear to the government as well that for the | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
employment gap to be halved, for us to get a place where people | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
disabilities get the access to employment, we need to addrdss the | :46:04. | :46:06. | |
way that we treat them in all areas of Social Security, making them | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
fight for support, making them feel as if they have to fight for help | :46:11. | :46:16. | |
which they should actually have direct and the expectation hs | :46:17. | :46:19. | |
damaging the long-term prospects of confidence. Can I thank the | :46:20. | :46:26. | |
honourable member forgiving way Surely one of the things we need to | :46:27. | :46:29. | |
do is to make sure that these people who are suffering from disability | :46:30. | :46:32. | |
and they do not think we should just pigeonhole them into individual | :46:33. | :46:35. | |
areas, we need to make sure as well that they have the confidence to be | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
able to get into employment to come and participate in the wider | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
community. I find nothing in what he said there that I can disagree with | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
but the fact is they do not have the confidence at the moment and that is | :46:49. | :46:50. | |
clear from the examples in giving and from the experts that sdctor | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
organisations, the conference is not there because of the way thdy have | :46:55. | :46:56. | |
been treated the whole way through the lives, having to fight for | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
appropriate wheelchair so go through, to quirky capability | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
assessments and PIP assessmdnts and DLA assessments that the do find the | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
meaning. -- go through work capability assessments. This reduces | :47:09. | :47:14. | |
the confidence not just in the workplace but to maintain a | :47:15. | :47:16. | |
dignified level in society `nd so I take his point but I think there are | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
far more -- there is far more for us to do and this is a view th`t is | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
echoed by the deputy CEO of disability rights UK as she said it | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
is bad enough that the government spends so much of its time `nd | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
resources on finding ways to deny disabled people benefits and | :47:36. | :47:37. | |
support, but then not to put measures in place that would | :47:38. | :47:40. | |
increase implement opportunhties is a double whammy for disabled people. | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
The fact is that it is only when we see a government seriously committed | :47:46. | :47:47. | |
to equality that we will get progress. I thank the Honourable | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
member. I saw a constituent last Friday, a 37-year-old man whth | :47:53. | :47:55. | |
Parkinson's disease have gone through a PIP assessment and the | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
report described him as it rather than him. Does he agree with me that | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
this is an example of exactly how this is not being put into practice | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
under the scheme? That is frankly absolutely sickening and should | :48:09. | :48:16. | |
reduce all of us to shame. Ht goes to the heart of why all the way | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
through the election campaign in Scotland we have set in Scotland | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
that when we create our Sochal Security agency that we will put | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
dignity and respect at the heart of that Social Security agency for | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
those very reasons, because sadly in some cases, not all, but sole cases, | :48:34. | :48:36. | |
that has been lacking. Subtitles will resume | :48:37. | :48:39. | |
on Wednesday In Parliament, at 300. | :48:40. | :48:50. |