14/06/2016 House of Commons

subjected to banning orders, the police will take action agahnst

them. Order, the clerk will proceed to read the orders of the d`y. Wales

Bill second reading. To movd the second reading of the bill. I called

the Secretary of State for Wales, secretary Alun Cairns. I beg to move

that the bilby read a second time. We are here to debate the W`les

Bill. Fundamental importancd to the future governance of Wales `nd its

role within the United Kingdom. It will empower the National Assembly

for Wales and the Welsh Govdrnment to deliver on the things th`t really

matter. The economy the envhronment and essential public servicds. I

want to thank stakeholders hncluding the Welsh affairs select colmittee

and the member for Monmouth and the Assembly's constitutional affairs

select committee for their work on the draft bill and those including

the Welsh Government for thd way they have responded to the

publication of the bill. A committed to continue to work with all those

stakeholders and others in the process as follows through

Parliament. I would first lhke to pay tribute to my right honourable

friends, the for Cheshire and Amersham, Clwyd West and prdcisely

Pembrokeshire who worked tirelessly to put Welsh devolution on ` stable

footing for the long-term. They have played a major part in the

development of this bill. Following the resounding yes vote in the 011

referendum for the National Assembly, my right honourable

friend, the member of the Chesham and Amersham sought to simplify

Welsh devolution by removing the widely disparaged Elko systdm. That

was a system or process that we would rather forget. My right

honourable friend establishdd a commission to review the financial

and constitutional arrangemdnts in Wales. The commission chairdd by Sir

Paul silk, and I want to show our appreciation to him for his work and

those who joined him in the commission, included represdntatives

from all four political parties that were represented in the Assdmbly. It

published its first report hn November 2012 on devolving financial

powers to the Assembly. My right honourable friend, the membdr for

Clywd West then took forward the Wales act 2014 to implement

recommendations -- recommendations devolving tax varying powers of the

Assembly for the very first time. Establishing an important principle.

The commission published its second report, for which my right

honourable friend establishdd the Saint Davids Day process, sdeking

political consensus, and wh`t could be taken forward. This culmhnation

in the Saint Davids the agrdement, published in February 2015, formed

the blueprint of the Bill bdfore us today. I also considered thd Smith

Commission's proposal, to include the elements that work for Wales. In

preparing this Bill, he had been guided by two underlining

principles, clarity and accountability. I will give way On

a point of clarity, could hd be absolutely clear whether or not the

Bill has drafted today for second reading, would permit the assembly

to introduce compulsory vothng in Welsh elections? I'm happy to give

that clarification. Matters of election, which I will come into

detail, will be subject to ` two thirds majority. That includes the

franchise for assembly election and biggest agencies and other `reas. I

will respond those points when I get to that part in my speech a little

later. Clarity, Mr Speaker, because the new reserved powers moddl of

devolution was a well-defindd boundary between what is reserved

and what is devolved. It cl`rifies who is responsible for what. It is a

major step in extending powdrs. It will end the squabble over powers

between Cardiff Bay and Westminster, allowing them to get on with the job

of improving the economy, sdcuring jobs. It is also about

accountability. It paves thd way for making the semi of Wales accountable

to the people about how it spends money. -- the assembly of W`les

Could he concede the third point to press a bull will be the proper

subsidy, and does this meet the requirements question Mike H am

grateful for the question. H hope we can cover some of those points

further in the debate. Much will depend on what you determind and

interpret as so did... He jtst mentioned income tax rates. What

will happen of the Welsh block grant to the National Assembly of Wales

for the duration of this Parliament, which is fully can speak for. My

worry is he will cut the block grant and expect the people of Wales to

pick that out. There was a collective effort and promise

delivered by the Government. The Barnet adjustments need to be

considered, and discussions between the Welsh governance down the

Treasury at my officials ard ongoing. We would like to sde

progress in these matters as this Bill receives its scrutiny through

the Parliamentary process. We are determined to find a transp`rent way

that will rightly serve the people of Wales and the Welsh and TK

taxpayer. I will give way. H'm thankful. Can I draw him to the

comments of his colleague, the Secretary of State for Scotland who

said it is a significant dax for Scotland. It will add to be

responsible at ease of the Scottish Parliament and a range of ndw

powers. It provides great opportunities for the Scotthsh

government to deliver Scotthsh fixes to Scottish robbers. -- to Scottish

problems. Was he right? We have developed this Bill in consdnsus

with the publication of the draft Bill, we have responded to the

comments that were made. We have developed... Pride that was the St

David's Day agreement, we s`w progress. If I can finish speaking

before the next intervention. Ultimately, we don't have a uniform

approach to devolution becatse what is right for Scotland isn't

necessarily right for Wales. We have different circumstances, different

needs and we should respond to those as appropriate bills develop. I hope

the honourable member will `ctively participate and seek to improve the

Bill through the Parliament`ry process. I'm determined to come to a

Bill that all members of thhs House will be at best satisfied whth. I

will give way. In February, the Secretary of State's predecdssor

said that a lot of the crithcism of the draft Bill was ill informed and

plain wrong. Given that the governed has accepted most of the crhticism

and the amendment of the bell, does he agree that his Princess was

wrong? -- his predecessor. Part of the criticism was ill inforled and

will have been wrong. That hs not the certainly mean all others of

questions were wrong. That hs the purpose of publishing the draft

Bill. We are grateful for the input that she and her committee will have

contributed. If I can make some progress, we committed to ptt in

place a clearer, stronger and fairer devolution settlement for W`les and

that is exactly what this Bhll does. The St David's Day process

established powers for a purpose. That is powers that can makd a

practical difference to the lives of the people in Wales. Their powers

being devolved in this Bill will mean the assembly is able to decide

on the speed limits of our throats, how taxis and buses should be

regulated, how planning consent is given for all but the most repeat it

energy projects, amongst many other powers. -- the most strateghc of

energy projects. I welcome new powers to the assembly on energy

projects, but it is limited to relatively small units. Why is it

not extended to those that `re larger? I'm grateful for his

long-standing interest in stch matters. But I would point `t 3 0

megawatts is a significant scale, but I will also remind him that this

was a recommendation that c`me from the silk commission. That is the

foundation for the basis on which we have taken forward that specific

recommendation. I will give way Further to that point, does my right

honourable friend agreed th`t in respect of wind generation, the

SNB's powers will now be unlimited? -- the assembly's powers. It will be

limited to 350 megawatts, as stated. The assembly has mature in the 7

years since it was established. That is refunded in the developmdnt of

the institution into a confhdent, lawmaking legislature. I'd like to

make some progress and then I will give weight later on.

In recognition of this, the Bill enshrines for the first timd the

assembly and the Welsh government as permanent parts of the Unitdd

kingdom's constitutional fabric I will give way in a moment. H will

come back to my honourable friend. He was referring to some of the new

powers, and which are not ddvolved. Could he explain to the House what

the principle behind choosing which powers to devolve and which to

retain was? For example, waxs - why is water retained here whild

Sewerage is in Cardiff? I whll come onto water and the devolution

relating to that later. The honourable member will be aware that

the working group has been established, which is considering

the decision that has been taken to devolved water. I will commdnt on

day -- in detail when I comd to that section. I will give way ag`in. He

is being generous. He mentioned what is effectively the incorpor`tion of

the sea wall convention into statute for the first time, for the first

time as far as Wales is concerned. Calls to the Bill provides that it

is recognise that the UK Parliament will not normally legislate to Wales

without the consent of the devolved powers. If there were a challenge

from the Welsh government as to whether or not that was norlal, how

would that be adjudicated? The basis of this clause has been drawn from

the Scotland act, and it wotld be a matter for the courts to judge on

that. It also underlines thd principle that Parliament is

sovereign in these matters. Whereas we will absolutely respect the

rights of the assembly, that clause has been included to say th`t we

will not normally legislate in devolved areas. If I can make some

progress, the debate on the draft Bill, which was published for

pre-legislative scrutiny last autumn, will involve justicd issues.

It involved the necessity tdst. The inclusion of the test led to calls

for a separate jurisdiction. I listened to those concerns. This

Bill has moved a long way from the draft version and it is, by general

consensus, more suitable. The necessity test was believed to be

too high above and calls were made for a lower threshold. They have

gone further. I have removed the test entirely when the asselbly

modifies the common-law for devolved purposes. -- the criminal l`w. I

recognise the validity of some of the points raised jarring

pre-legislative scrutiny around the existence of Welsh law. The Bill

recognises this formally. There is a body of Welsh law made by the

assembly and by Welshman esters forming part of the law of Dngland

and Wales within the England and Wales jurisdiction. The recognition

of Welsh law needs distinct arrangements. As a result, H have

been working with my right honourable friend, the Justhce

Secretary, to establish an official sled working group to look `t how

those will be improved. The group includes representatives from the

judicial office and the Welsh government, and will take forward

its work in parallel to the progress of this Bill through this House and

the Other Place. The single jurisdiction can accommodatd a

growing body of Welsh law whthout the need for separation. If I can

finish this point, I will ghve way. There are many reasons why `

separate jurisdiction would be to the detriment of Wales was tp as

well as the unnecessary uphdaval and cost, the economic and commdrcial

interdependence of the legal profession on both sides of the

border means that the separ`tion would undermine the success of one

of Wales's fastest-growing sectors, the legal profession. I will give

way. I am grateful. We'll bd working group we mentioned earlier be

looking at the new justice assessments, included in thhs Bill,

and will be working group the reporting before we finally vote on

the Bill at third reading? The terms of reference for the working group

had been published. I would expect that to be reported in the `utumn. I

would also add that the Justice impact assessment is a mattdr for

the assembly. It is a matter for scrutiny by assembly members

themselves. The principle of having a Justice impact assessment is

fundamental to the proper scrutiny of any mature legislature, `nd we

can debate that a little but later on when I come to that elemdnt. Some

members, have asked me about the comet of the Bill for the Jtstice

impact assessment, to accompany assembly bills. I would likd to take

this opportunity to clarify the purpose a little further. It is only

natural for a mature legisl`ture to consider the consequences of its own

legislation. The impact of `ssembly bills are assessed against ` range

of factors, including the Wdlsh language, equality and other

matters. No formal assessment has been made of their potential impacts

of the justice system, which is vital for the laws are being forced

properly. It is in the common-sense that any such matters or anx such

assessment is considered to contribute to the efficient delivery

of justice matters. The Government committed in their

Davids Day agreement... I whll give way. This is the key point hn the

new impact assessments. Who will make the assessments? I takd it it

is a matter for the Welsh Government. What those assessments

lead to a trigger whereby the Ministry of Justice can objdct to

legislation? It is a matter for Assembly members and the repuirement

is the standing order to include a request for a justice impact

assessment. There will be no veto that arises out of the Justhce

impact assessment. I could give you a practical example. The rented

homes act as documents that extend in excess of 30 pages. 15 lhnes talk

about the justice implications of the consequences thereafter. The

principal rial -- we are repuesting is that fall prospects are locked

into. I look into the way the minister responded that camd on the

floor of the Assembly some weeks ago. Rather than a general

accommodation within the st`nding orders, this is a specific request

for a Justice impact assesslent Committed in the Saint Davids Day

agreement looked at the boundary for Wales. The reserved powers ,- powers

model will look at getting the settlement clearer by drawing a

well-defined Barry -- bound`ry between what is deserved and

devolved. Anything specific`lly not reserved for the Welsh ministers and

it doesn't get clear than that. The scrutiny prompted a wide ranging

discussion on what the future shape and structure and devolution should

be. The list of reservations including the draft bill was

criticised as being too long. We have listened and the list hn the

bill contains fewer reservations and I have made the description is more

accurate. There is a clear rationale for reservations that are included.

The list of reservations will never be a short as some would like but

clarity required specificitx. It will be subject to further fine

tuning. Broadly we have strtck the right balance in the bill that is

before us today. The bill also clarifies the devolution botndary by

defining which public authorities are Welsh public authorities or

Wales public authorities, ddvolved bodies with all other public

authorities being reserved authorities. To add further clarity,

the bill lists those bodies which are currently Wales' public

authorities applied in constltation with the Welsh Government and the

Assembly commission. Naturally the consent of the UK Government will be

needed if an Assembly Bill seeks to modify the functions of a rdserved

body. This follows the principle that the Assembly approves TK

legislation that touches devolved areas through legislative consent

emotions. The third key elelent of a close element is the change we are

making to the fulgence of Wdlsh ministers. It is hard to believe

that Welsh ministers have not been able to exercise, nor powers up

until now, unlike ministers of the Crown or Scottish ministers. The

bill puts the misjudgement of the 2006 at right. The bill also removes

the current restriction on the Assembly being able to modify

functions and devolved areas. It lists those functions which Welsh

ministers exercise concurrently or jointly and the small number of

functions in devolved areas which the Assembly could modify whth the

consent of UK ministers. All remaining members of the Crown

functions will be transferrdd by order to Welsh ministers. T`ken

together, these provisions deliver a settlement that will make it clear

who people in Wales should hold to account. The UK Government or the

Welsh Government for the decisions that affect their daily livds. I

would like to inform the Hotse that there are some minor clarifhcations

that have -- that have been made to the notes relating to some of these

clauses and the built and rdvised copies and notes are available for

members. I will give way. Hd is talking about extra powers but what

is he going to do to get th`t across to the people of Wales becatse even

under the current settlements, there is still a lot of misunderstanding

about who is responsible for what. He raises an important point. The

intention of this bill is to provide that parity and from that clarity

there will be opportunity for greater communication and all

members in this house and stakeholders have that

responsibility to help commtnicate it. One of the key functions is to

provide a clear line between what the UK Government is responsible for

and what don't Welsh Governlent is responsible for so anyone working in

Wales clearly knows who to give credit for when policies ard going

right but who to hold responsible when policies are the impact of

policies and not quite as effective as the policy makers might have

thought at the outset. Would he agree that one of the other reasons

clarity is so important is to have far fewer examples of the Wdlsh

Government and UK Government ending up arguing about things in the

supreme court? Would claritx reduce that from happening? That is much of

the function and motivation behind many of the clauses included within

the bill. It also strengthens Welsh devolution by devolving further

powers to the Assembly and the Welsh ministers. To complement thd

Assembly's assisting powers over economic development, it devolves

responsibility is for ports in Wales. This will consider the

development of ports in Walds as part of its wider stretches the

economic development, transport and tourism. Major trust ports will

remain reserved given their national UK wide significance. Milford Haven,

given its importance for thd Everett -- energy security is -- of the

whole country is reserved. The bill also streamlines the

consenting resume for energx projects providing a one-stop shop

for developers by aligning associated consents with consent for

the main project itself. Whdn Welsh Government makes a decision on a new

energy a worried -- it will be responsible for consenting on the

new substations, access roads and overhead power lines relating to

that project. Can he clarifx whether great connections will be ddvolved

as well? One of the larger projects which the UK does, many of planning

consents are local among thd collection to the grid. The purpose

of the bill is to give that one stop shop in terms of energy projects and

consequences that fallout thereafter. They will be conducted

in discussions with the Nathonal Grid. On this specific point, what

is the position where an ovdrhead power line is crossing in through

England and through Wales? Not just the connection point but a

significant part of the powdr line? Is that position clear in the bill?

That relates to the National Grid who will have an interest in that

matter and I will happily provide further detail to my honour`ble

friend if he has specific examples in mind that he would like to pursue

further. The bill devolves ` range of further transport powers

enabling... I would like to make a bit of progress. I will givd way.

Further to the point raised by the honourable member, is it however the

case that the Assembly's powers will be limited to 132 kilovolts lines

and not the major grid conndctions that he is referring to? He is quite

obviously with understanding on this. As we progress, as thhs bill

progresses are particularly at committee, we will be able to

examine line by nine the consequences of each individual

clause. I will write and further detail should my right honotrable

friend need further information I would like to make more progress and

then I will happily give wax. The bill devolves a range of further

transport powers enabling the Assembly to Registry -- leghslate on

all aspects of Welsh roads. It will be able to decide what the speed

limit should be Welsh roads, the resume for traffic signs and

pedestrian crossings on those roads. The regulation of taxi servhce and

the regulation of bus services in Wales. There will be further powers

on the environment, the Assdmbly can decide whether and how fracking

takes place in Wales and Welsh ministers will have a say on whether

licences granted the new co`l mining operations. It is difficult to

believe that with all the W`les Acts that have passed since 1997 that a

Welsh Assembly did not have the power in order to sanction ` new

coal mine or not. It needed approval from the UK Government. I whll give

way. I have intervened before and this will be the last. What location

has it for the transport Commissioner for Wales who will be

located in Birmingham? Disctssions are ongoing between the Dep`rtment

for Transport, the Wales Office and the Welsh Government about the

functions and role of the transport Commissioner. It also serves the

West Midlands and Wales as ` nation and discussions are ongoing in

relation to that. The Welsh Minister's powers over marine

licensing and marine conservation in the area are being extended to be

Welsh offshore zone. The bill devolves powers over sewerage and as

we committed in the agreement, we will consider the findings of the

joint Government review on `ligning the devolution Bantry of water with

the National Bantry when it reports its findings in due course. --

devolution Bantry of water within National Bantry. The build devolves

further powers and I were not go into detail. The purpose of the

second detail. As I mentiondd, the bill devolves further powers that --

stem from the Smith commisshon. These include further powers over

equality is, the design of incentives and the security --

scrutiny of Ofgem. We are ghven the Assembly and Welsh ministers a

greater say in how the interests of Wales are represented within Ofcom.

This is a strong package of further powers that moves well -- Wdlsh

devolution forward and can hmprove the lives of the people of Wales if

exercised thoughtfully by the Assembly and Welsh Government. I

spoke earlier about the Assdmbly coming-of-age and the package of

further powers for the Asselbly itself truly gives form to that

vision. Through this bill, the Assembly will take control of its

own affairs including decidhng arrangements for its own eldctions.

It will be able to determind how we are members are elected, thd number

of members, the regions used in those elections and who is dligible

to vote. As we promised in the Saint Davids Day agreement, the bhll gives

the Assembly full responsibhlity for deciding how it conducts its own

affairs and regulates its own proceedings. I will give wax. He did

say he would get to this pohnt but he hasn't answered the question

which I put to him which is not about who would be able to vote but

whether or not the bill would give powers to enable the Assembly to

introduce compulsory voting if it so chose to do so. It is very hmportant

at this stage in terms of clarity that we should know whether the

answer to that question is xes or no. I am happy to clarify hhs

question. It gives probation for certain foes rather than colpulsory

votes. The Assembly is a fully fledged legislator trust with

passing laws that affect thd lives of the people of Wales. It hs right

that the legislative framework in which it operates reflects this and

neighbours the Assembly itsdlf to decide how it conducts its business.

The bill also repeals the ndcessary and outdated right of the Sdcretary

of State for Wales to participate in the summary proceedings. Subject to

the bill's progress, I hope that my attendance at the Assembly hn a few

weeks' time will be the last by the Secretary of State for Wales.

Something I'm sure members of all parties share and in Cardiff Bay

will welcome, probably for lany reasons. Something that will go down

well on all sides. A more accountable government, the

key feature of a mature leghslature, is that it raises through t`xation

at least some of the money that it spends. With power comes

responsibility. The assemblx must become more accountable to those who

are elected. The stamp duty, land tax and others are the first step

towards this. It is only right that a portion of income tax is devolved

as well. We will remove the need for a referendum to introduce Wdlls

rates of income tax. -- Welsh rates of income tax. The worst government

wants the same thing. There are practical issues, as were r`ised by

the honourable member earlidr. Particularly how the Welsh block

grant is adjusted to take account of tax devolution. Those discussions

are taking place, and I expdct them to progress as the Bill passes

through both houses. I will give way. Could the secretary just

clarify for me, and I possibly should know the answer to this, but

on what basis is the tax base made, is it work in Wales? It is residents

in Wales. Of course, there will be further technical issues th`t we

will want to clarify indiscretion is with the Treasury, the Welsh

government and the Wales office Those elements will be conshdered in

further detail as the Bill progresses. And as the adjustment

agreements are discussed between all parties in this. It is focused on

residency rather than where people will work. I will give way. I

personally am disappointed that in this cause we have broken a

manifesto commitment. I would ask if you who sit on the same manhfesto

are equally disappointed th`t you are breaking this commitment. There

are two points that I would say First of all, it was the 2004 act

that devolved tax varying powers to the assembly. This Bill will go one

step further by removing thd requirement for a referendul. But

what I would say, the second point, is that devolution has moved

forwards. We can either seek to have a hollow argument about rolling

back, all we can make the Wdlsh government more accountable, more

responsible for the money which it raises. Under current legislation

and current arrangements, the Welsh governorate already has

responsibility for raising ?2.5 billion of its own income. That is

through council tax, business rates and other taxes like stamp duty tax

and landfill tax. According to the forecasts by the office of Budget

responsibility, the devoluthon of income tax will transfer solething

in the region of ?2 billion to the Welsh government. Therefore, this is

a smaller sum for which the Government already have

responsibility. I will happhly give way. But to continue the pohnt

raised by my honourable fridnd is it not the case that only just over 12

months ago, the Conservativd party fought on a manifesto which pledged

that there would be a referdndum before any tax varying confhdence

was devolved to the assemblx? My honourable friend has played a

significant part in the devdlopment of legislation relating to Wales

when he was the Secretary of State for Wales. He will recognisd how

quickly the devolution make,up of the UK has develop, evolved and

bejewelled in that time. Thhs is the next logical step to making an

assembly more mature, more responsible but ultimately laking it

more accountable to the people of Wales, because it will have two

consider how money is raised as well as how money is spent. I will give

way. I am grateful. I'm enjoying his speech. house 's enthusiasm been

polluted by recent experience, particularly in the alternative vote

referendum that we had, and particularly at the present time

when it is a choice between who is lies people believe. It is faith in

public opinion shaken by thd large number of people who voted to name a

boat ten two? -- Boaty McBo`tface? Many of us might have referdndum

fatigue as we speak. The prhnciple of devolving taxes, of course, was

granted and supported in thd last Bill, the 2014 act. It transferred

responsibilities in those areas without a referendum. I think the

principle had been established and we're taking it further to the

devolution of income tax without a referendum, or removing the

requirement for a referendul. I m aware of the time and I'm aware that

people will want their contribution. We want clarity and account`bility.

It draws a clear line betwedn what is devolved and what is resdrved so

people in Wales are aware of who is responsible for the services on

which they rely. This is a Bill that will strengthen Wales and the United

Kingdom. It further enables the Welsh government to deliver on the

things that matter for the people living and working in Wales, and to

be held account for their ddcisions and policies. I commend this Bill to

the House. The question is, the building -- the Bill be read a

second time. It is said that devolution hs a

process, not an event, a jotrney rather than a destination. That is

true with this Bill. The jotrney has taken longer than it should have

done because the Secretary of State's immediate predecessor, seems

determined to drivers along a convoluted path, going back the way

we had come. This is in spite of an extraordinarily united chorts of

navigators, everyone telling him to turn around the other way. Puite an

achievement by that Bill to unite everyone against it. It was a Bill

so bad it would have made the assembly's job impossible and take

on Welsh devolution backwards, not forwards. I'm glad that the right

honourable member did eventtally listen, put the brakes on and

prepare to change direction. We now have a piece of legislation that,

while not perfect, is a marked improvement. Like any lost driver,

he can be forgiven for hurlhng some irrational abuse at those tried to

offer advice. He told us th`t we were launching some kind of

separatist plot, that we had given up on the union, and all of

criticism was a for Welsh independence. I hope we can have a

more measured debate today. I shall give way.

Thank you. She will also relember from the 3rd of February th`t the

member actually said this. There is nothing in the draft Bill that makes

the Welsh assembly consider whether legislation in a devolved area is

necessary. Issue pleased th`t the Secretary of State recognisd that

was in his own Bill? It was laughable at times when you realised

he had presumably given his approval to it. It was clear we recognise the

reserved powers model, which we have in calling for for some timd as it

has the potential to clarifx the devolution settlement. We wdlcome

each of the new powers in the Bill. I sure party which established the

Welsh are simply, Roger C ddvolution powered -- with more devolution and

powers. As for the areas thdy already control, the assembly will

be able to use these new powers to make different choices that reflect

the will of people in Wales. The powers over shale gas extraction

will allow the assembly to take into account the real fears that people

in Wales have about fracking. Labour is clear that, as the necessary

safeguards cannot be met, wd should not be pushing ahead with it. We

welcome the powers over planning consent with projects producing over

350 megawatts. I hope we'll be getting full devolution of those

powers from Secretary of St`te. That would not solve the delays we have

with the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon, or judge you to the failure of

ministers on the benches opposite to agree a financial framework for the

project to proceed. I hope he does everything he can to speed tp the

review so we can have this world first in Wales, with all of the

positive spin offs for our lan adventuring industry, rather than

letting other countries ste`l a march on us. We could call ht a

Welsh Parliament. The responsibility for the voting age in Welsh

elections means that they could introduce votes at 16 for election

to the assembly and councils in Wales. Whatever the assemblx

decides, what matters is th`t these decisions will be taken in Wales by

elected assembly members. I will give way. What concerns me with the

devolution of powers to the assembly with the voting age in governments

is that they could vote for -- is that 60 new rods could vote for SMB

mothers but not members of this House. -- that 16-year-olds could

vote for assembly members. I will give way. She believds that

the new electoral legislation will enable the Welsh Parliament or Welsh

government to impose compulsory voting in our country. If that is

the case, which she supportdd or oppose it? Well, the Secret`ry of

State himself has told us that he will be clarifying that for us so we

know whether that will be possible. We understand that he thinks it is

very unlikely that that will be possible because he has talked about

it being people who can votd, but not the system itself. We whll wait

for clarification from him to know when we are going on that one. The

Bill is designed to strengthen and streamline the current settlement.

The assembly is allowed to hntimate current European Union legislation

directly, where it relates to devolved matters. That is a sensible

development and one which I sincerely hope does not become

redundant by the time the Bhll moves to committee stage after thd

referendum recess. The biggdst structural change in this Bhll is

the move to a reserved powers model, as is recommended by the two silk

commission. This should allow the assembly to legislate with greater

confidence and with greater regard to the purpose of the legislation,

rather than be constrained by uncertainty. This change will bring

greater clarity to the devolution settlement and if the governor and

gets the Bill right, it shotld result in fewer cases being taken to

the Supreme Court. We have `lready seen too much public money spent on

such manoeuvres. I work in the important statement of the

permanence of the Welsh assdmbly, and the inclusion that the TK

Parliament will seek permission before making changes to devolved

powers. The assembly has become a fundamental part of our

constitutional landscape. In 20 1, the worst people voted for the

assembly to have full lawmaking powers. An important sign of

confidence in the institution. Together with this Parliament, the

SNP should be recognised as one of two significant powers that rappers

and the people of Wales. It was the ability to pass laws in devolved

areas that the draft Bill ptt at risk in the most unnecessarx and

short-sighted of ways. It is a civil fact that as a lawmaking body, the

assembly must have the abilhty to change the law. The draft Bhll would

have required it to pass a nub of necessity tests before being able to

amend civil or criminal laws. According to the Constitution

committee, these tests would have created an atmosphere of profound

uncertainty. And taken to extremes the exercise of the legislative

function could be copper mice. I'm pleased that the governed h`s seen

sense and route these tests so that the assembly can amend the law when

it needs to. That other tests I will return to later.

This means that a less thing to body of Welsh law will continue to grow

over time, which does pose ` challenge to the single leg`l

jurisdiction of England and Wales. We understand the Justice ilpact

assessment are intended to `ccess this point, but it is the c`se that

a more long-term solution m`y need to be found at some point in the

future. We trust that the working group consisting of the Minhstry of

Justice, the Lord Chief Justice and the Welsh Government will kdep this

issue under review. Let me now turn to the areas of the bell whhch

require more work. I want to deal with the reservations, the necessity

test, and the devolution of income tax. It was a common theme hn

response to the draft bill that the list of reservations was far too

long. Even the Secretary of State's predecessor expressed surprhse at

the number of reservations, and in usual admitting given that ht was

his belt. This suggested thdre was a lack of a clear rationale for the

compilation of that list. I note the list of reservations in this bill is

slightly shorter, but the rtns to some 34 pages. The justific`tion for

reserving some subjects is far from clear. The root of the problem with

the reservations in the draft beer Dilip Clack bill --. In its report

on the draft bill, the select affairs committee said the white old

apartment should be given clear guidance about the questions they

ask themselves before decidhng whether or not to reserve power and

that this guidance must be published prior to the publication of the

bells or that the final list of reservations can be assessed against

it. It is regrettable that no such fresh guidance has been published,

which would allow us to dechde whether the list of reservations

have been drafted with clear criteria in mind. In response to the

select committee's report, the Secretary of State said that the

explanatory notes that accolpanied the bill provides a clear r`tionale

for each reservation includdd in the list. I'm afraid this is not the

case. The expiratory nose are patchy at best. Mostly what is resdrved

without saying why. The Secretary of State must be ready to justhfy each

of the reservations and present a rational basis for the final list.

What is already clear is th`t some of the reservations are unjtstified.

The decision to create a spdcial category reserved trust ports is one

example. This means in practice that control of every Welsh board would

be dissolved to the Assemblx except for Milford Haven. The Government

has provided no sensible justification for this. -- devolved

to the Assembly. As the bill currently stars, ports which meet an

annual turnover climate of 40 by three more years or above rdmain

under the control of UK Govdrnment, well those that are smaller turnover

would be transferred to the Welsh ministers. There seems to create a

perverse incentive, because of Welsh Government masters economic

development and smaller boards, which consequently increases and

their turnover, it could thdn find it loses control over those ports.

Without an expedition we can only assume the Government wants to keep

control of the most profitable ports, with a view possibly to

privatising them in future, as indeed the Government did consider

doing in 2011. Strange that this annual turnover is the same

threshold over which ports can be privatised under the 1991 ports act.

Previous privatisation proposals have raised serious concerns about

asset stripping based better leaders, the fragmentation of

boards, and these dangers would be just as real. Turning to thd

necessity test, I am pleased the most problematic of these rdlating

to civil and criminal law h`d been removed from the bill. This has made

the bill markedly clearer and more workable than its predecessor.

However, to necessity test remain. In clause three and clause one of

schedule seven B. As many whtnesses noted during the Welsh affahrs

committee enquiry to the dr`ft bill, the problem with this test hs the

uncertainty surrounding the word necessity. A representative from the

Law Society described it as certainly not a term that is as well

understood by lawyers as a concept. Which raises the potential of

legislation being challenged, not just in these have been caught but

in the course of other civil and criminal proceedings. Given these

very real concerns, would it not be preferable to ditch the 70 test

enquiry and retain the wordhng which avoids invoking this legallx

difficult concept? -- ditch the necessity test entirely. We welcome

the simple file system proposing the bell, but the Government cotld go

further. The Welsh affairs committee proposes a 60 day time limit for

consent to be given reviews. The change to this effect would give

greater confidence, and I would urge the Government to consider `dopting

it in law. To turn to incomd tax, the current situation is th`t the

Welsh people would have to support these evolution of income t`x in a

referendum before the powers to be transferred to the Assembly. This

bill removes that requirement, meaning that the Secretary of State

could devolve income tax powers via an order in Council, without the

Assembly even having to agrde to it. This cannot be right. Allowhng the

Assembly to levy taxes as a very significant constitutional

development, one which should not take place without a clear

democratic decision. So we `re asking the Secretary of State to

consider amending the bill to require the Assembly to agrde to the

devolution of tax powers before they are devolved. I will give w`y. I am

grateful to the Shadow Secrdtary of State. The shadow Secretary of State

for Scotland said on the BBC, and I quote, when this bill becomds law,

it will present the Scottish people with the opportunity to makd

Scotland the various nation on earth. I presume that would be an

objective for the honourabld lady counterparty. So why is she

dithering on giving her colleagues in the Assembly disempowers

astrologer achieve those objectives? -- the same powers as Scotl`nd to

achieve those objectives? Ewood focus as ever on the determhnation

of his party to become an independent state, regardless of the

economic consequences. As I have just explained, what is absolutely

crucial is to give the Asselbly the opportunity to negotiate a proper,

fair fiscal framework with `nd no detriment principle before `ccepting

responsibility for income t`x. It is extremely important that th`t

opportunities should be there. I will give way. I am grateful to the

honourable lady for giving way, and she mentions what she sees `s the

need for the Assembly to consent to the devolution of tax powers. But

what about the people of Wales? Given that the people of Scotland

were consulted in a referendum prior to tax-raising powers being given,

does she not think the people of Wales deserve the same respdct? I

think we have moved on sincd the last Wales Bill, but I think what is

absolutely vital is that th`t mechanism is there to establish a

clear financial framework whth no detriment principle is that the

Welsh Assembly can have the confidence to decide if it does does

not wish to accept the devolution of tax-raising powers. As I sahd at the

outset, this bill is not perfect and will require amendments, but I hope

the UK Government will commht to working constructively with the

Welsh Government and with opposition parties to ensure that we ddliver a

strong, stable, workable settlement for the people -- that the people of

Wales deserve. Thank you. M`y I just begin by thanking all of thd members

of the Welsh affairs select committee who took part in the

pre-legislative scrutiny, and I must say, when the select committee was

formed after the last Parli`ment, I encourage members on all sides of

the House to join the committee and all that entails of all the

interesting things we have been doing in the last Parliament. -

told them titles. Broadband, visiting the Welsh speakers of

Patagonia and Argentina. Sole of them may have been taken ab`ck when

we spent the first year or so just doing pre-legislative scruthny into

the Government of Wales Bill, an endless series of academics and

experts coming in to talk about legislative consent and the like,

but everyone persevered and I am grateful to them for it. I would

like to think that we worked in a completely nonpartisan fashhon,

offered a number of recommendations that I think the Government have

taken forward and I will cole to an moment. I want to say that obviously

is a former member of the Wdlsh Assembly myself, I actually oppose

it in the first instance. I was very much involved in that referdndum

campaign in 1998, when I often heard the argument being made that laws

which affect our nation shotld be passed by people who are based in

our nation and elected by the people of our nation. I thought it was a

powerful argument at the tile and one which perhaps members of the

front bench and members opposite might want to think about at the

moment. That was certainly the principle that was accepted at the

time. I have others had gentine concerns about it, and one of my

concerns was that having got the Welsh Assembly, we would have a

constant drive to give it extra powers, and that seem to have been

what has played out over thd last 17 or 18 years so. My concern was that

this could lead to a situathon where the union of the United Kingdom is

undermined, and that is why I was actually a supporter of English

Votes for English Laws, bec`use I think there has to be some `nswer to

the English question. I know the members opposite may not agree, but

I think it is for them to come up with another answer to the Dnglish

question, because asymmetric devolution where we are givhng more

powers, not always the same powers, two different legislative bodies

around the United Kingdom while ignoring the largest constituent

part is surely not something that will create stability. That was one

answer to the question. The other is to come up with, this time finally,

a lasting solution, something that will keep us on an even track for

years. I think this is what the Government have attempted to do

When I go into primary schools, I have been asked about this before,

and I try to explain it in ` simple analogy, perhaps. What we h`ve at

the moment is a situation where you could almost say that the Assembly

is a bit like a legislative Park, apart with a slide and swings, well

maintained in its own way, but with no fence around it. What we have

seen happening is that membdrs of the Welsh Assembly have been

wandering out of the park into slightly dangerous areas, areas

inhabited by the people, and other people have been cast bafflhng onto

them. What the ministers have tried to come forward is a legisl`tive

version of Alton Towers. An enormous theme park with all sorts of things

for the members of the Welsh Assembly to be getting on whth.

Taxis, buses, sewage, all sorts of other exciting things as well. But

with a great big fence around it that. I do them from getting out and

perhaps encroaching into other areas or for other people encroaching into

theirs. I welcome this as wd move towards stability. As far as the

recommendation that we don't bother, I want to quickly go through a

couple of them. Obviously the importance of working with the Welsh

Assembly to come up with a deal that everyone can live with. I presume

that constitutionally speakhng, if there were a majority in thd House

of Commons, we could practically do anything that we wanted, but I think

all of us accept that we, the Government, by one party, there is a

different one in the Welsh @ssembly - the reality is it would bd foolish

to go ahead and do something to was Assembly that they did not want

Constitutionally it might bd possible, but politically it would

just be a nonstarter. So I `m glad that my colleagues accept this and

that those talks are ongoing. I am glad they have removed the necessity

test. I did get a strong fedling from talking to the legal experts

that it just wasn't going to work in its current form. But at thd same

time, it is important that the Welsh Assembly is unable to legislate or

change criminal or private law in a way that will affect non-devolved

areas or people living outshde Wales and England. We have to be lindful

of that in all cases. For example, yesterday the Welsh affairs

committee held a public meeting to discuss the Severn Bridge, one of

the areas which I think is being retained, not least because three

out of the four ends are earning one point was made by residents of

Gloucester that if the Severn Bridges handed over to the Welsh

Assembly, it is used every day by people living on the English side of

the border. How are they gohng to be able to raise the concerns they

might have over delays or tolling or preparing to Leigh prepayment

systems or whatever? They whll have no MP who will be able to t`ke that

issue up on them, despite the fact it is an issue that will affect

almost as many people in England as in Wales. So these principlds are

important. Can I commend thd honourable member, I am listening to

his speech carefully, the work of the all-party North Wales group in

this House. Which is actually addressing precisely the issue that

he has raised. Working with members on both sides

of the border to deal with practical issues that affect our we h`ve to if

we I'm grateful, sorry, for it might have been he himself who th`t giving

England the power to decide over NHS matters who use the NHS in Dngland,

and he felt it that English MPs should have the last word on

whenever you hand things ovdr, it can of the border can lose out,

that's the point I the tax issue is obviously I

was in favour and I am in f`vour in principle of having but let's be

honest government is very r`rely I am not going to vote against

second reading, but I will vote with ministers on this issue. I find I am

conflicted. I suspect the l`st thing anyone will want at the momdnt is

another referendum on anythhng. I wouldn't like to go back to my wife

and tell her that having finished this one we are about to st`rt and

throw myself headlong into `nother one. I appreciate that as a personal

point of view, but I suspect many people across will steal thd same

way at the moment. They really will not welcome it. There must be some

way to make sure that the Wdlsh Assembly is unable to go ahdad with

this without taking full account of what the public are actuallx

thinking. I am very pleased to Mac I will give way. As somebody he

cajoled into becoming a member of the Welsh committee and as somebody

who spent months scrutinising the draft Wales Bill, is he as

disappointed as I am that the referendum issue itself was not

available for us to scrutinhse during those many months and many

hours in the Welsh select committee? It certainly came through r`ther

late in the day, and we madd it clear in the report that we were

disappointed we did not havd enough time to scrutinise that, but I

suppose that issue is now done. Does the honourable gentleman thhnk that

the evidence of the momentul of Welsh opinion is enough for us to

forego another referendum, seeing there were only 11% in favotr in

1979, but there were 64% in 201 . Isn't this evidence enough that the

public will certainly favour the development of the growth of the

Welsh assembly's powers? I have to admit I think it is evidencd that

the public have accepted thd Welsh assembly, and it is futile to

resurrect that particular b`ttle. There will be people taking part who

will have been born with a Welsh assembly, the honourable gentleman

and myself can remember a thme before. But for some people but does

not exist. Even the honourable gentleman can go back a bit further

than I can, I believe. I can vent a guest Tim in 1983 and he usdd to

come into my school and try to brainwash me. He never succdeded.

But we have moved on long w`y. But of course we have to accept that the

Welsh assembly is here for good and that brings me back to the point

about stability and trying to make this work. One of the points

accepted was this one on ministerial consent. Whether Welsh asselbly is

looking to legislate in a w`y that may affect England or have some

impact on non-devolved areas, they will have two obviously get

permission from the governmdnt which I fully accept. We heard th`t when

this had been going on, there had been delays with, frankly I think

the Welsh spray and in the Welsh assembly for queries and thd Welsh

assembly blaming The Welsh Office and I have no idea who was to blame,

but we made a recommendation that if the assembly apply for consdnt to

the Welsh office, and nothing is given within 60 days, then ht should

be nodded through on the basis that nobody has come up with an

objection. Although this will not go into the legislation I belidve it

will become convention nonetheless. At this point may I make a pitch for

something? I have been here a long time and never had a comments are

named after me but I think H am right in saying this was my idea.

I'm glad the Welsh assembly have the powers to run their own elections.

They would, if they wanted to, be able to move out of the Sen`te and

relocate anywhere in Wales from the south-east in my own constituency to

anywhere in the north-east. And isn't this wonderful? They will have

more powers than the MEPs in Strasbourg who can't even ddcide to

go and move up to Brussels full-time. So ministers are

certainly giving them a really good deal, good legislative themd park in

which to operate. So while H do have some concerns, I think in the words

of the member for Islington North, I'm going to give this seven and a

half out of ten and go along with it for the time being. Thank you very

much Madam Deputy Speaker and can icon gradually be honourabld

gentleman on his speech and say I agree with one thing he said, and

that is the need for an English parliament to balance things out.

I'm sure that debate will come forward and he and I will bd on the

same side for once. I actually congratulate the government on

pausing with this bill. I think it was the right thing to do. H think

they got it wrong first timd round. I don't think the Saint Davhds Day

agreement was a major declaration of Welsh history, I don't think it will

be remembered for that, but it moved us in the right direction and the

government listened. I pay tribute to the Welsh select committde, I

think they highlighted some of the weaknesses of the bill. I'm sorry

that it took 12 months and they couldn't go on to other things but I

think it is important in thhs House of Commons before we bring lajor

legislation forward that we do have pre-legislative scrutiny th`t many

people, two of them to my ldft, fought hard for. So I very luch

welcome the fact that this bill has now been changed, major parts of it

have been dropped. Not least as might honourable member the Shadow

Secretary of State said the necessity test. I think that really

was a step too far. Rather than moving forward with devoluthon, the

necessity test looked a bit like the old Secretary General giving powers

and giving a nod to what thd Welsh government could do and I don't

think that sat comfortably. I look forward to improving this bhll and

in doing so I think we should act more as visionaries rather than

victims. We've had devolution for a number of years and I think it's

done a lot of good things. H think the additional powers we get will

empower the government 's of Wales to do more good things for the

people of Wales and I think that's the idea of devolution. Powdring the

assembly to move forward and to take the people of Wales with it. Now,

I'm a long-standing pro-devolutionist. I fought three

referendums in 1979, 2007, `nd 011, and the score was exactly as it was

on Sunday for Wales, 2-1 victory in those referendums. I'm not so

confident of the outcome of the referendum later this month, but I

hope to be an the Remain winning side. Devolution is about

decentralisation, greater ddmocracy, or about nothing. The UK st`te has

changed considerably since 0997 I think it's more open, I think it's

more democratic and I think it's more decentralised. And I

congratulate all parties in this house for playing their parts in

making the United Kingdom are more decentralised and more democratic

state. I welcome the support from many Conservatives. The member for

Monmouth, former member of the Welsh assembly, for his stance th`t he

said changed on devolution. Indeed the member who also was agahnst

devolution at the time. It hs important to bring people whth us as

we move forward in a positive way. Will my honourable friend ghve way?

I'm grateful to my honourable friend. Does he agree that `t the

convolution of this bill and after the EU referendum the time will

genuinely have arrived for there to be a constitutional conventhon on

the future of the United Kingdom and its constitution and in particular

with relation to the way th`t the nations of the United Kingdom and

the devolved institutions rdlate to each other? I'm grateful to my

honourable friend who makes an important point. There needs to be a

time limit if we have a constitutional invention. Wd do not

just want academics producing long papers. We should draw on the

experience of the British state as it is today with the degree of

decentralisation there has `lways been and look at the English

question. I genuinely agree that it really needs to be looked at in a

positive way. I do welcome, and I come onto this, extending powers to

the regions and cities in England. I just wanted to say before moving on

to that point, when I was t`lking about many people who were `gainst

devolution becoming now verx active pro-devolutionist is, there are many

in this house including the two Nationalist parties who do not think

we have gone far or quick enough. I understand that but as a

pro-devolutionist, I wonder devolution settlement is to work for

Wales, I want them to work for the UK, and I want them to move forward

in a positive way, bringing the people of Wales with us. Rather than

just having ideologies I thhnk we need practical devolution that

works. I feel we are moving forward and I think this bill helps in many

ways. To me it is no good jtst having devolution, devolving powers

from London to Belfast, London to Edinburgh or London to Cardhff. I

want to see devolution spre`d within the nations and within the rest of

the United Kingdom. I see some bad examples of that in Scotland when I

was on the Welsh affairs select committee, we went up to Scotland. A

lot of centralising of servhces I worry about that as a real

devolutionist. I think we nded to have better devolution withhn the

devolved countries of this `s well as within England to get thd balance

right. So I want to see this bill improved. But I do do so ag`inst the

background I was given, as hn advocate of practical devolttion. I

welcome the development of lore powers. I'm will not deal whth the

details, but the areas of ports transport, and areas of energy. I do

so as somebody with a specific interest as a member who has a very

principal port in it, which has grown, and I have seen the flaws in

the devolution settlement h`mpering some of the development in those

ports. Some of you recall a new tenant two being built when we had

to get permission from the Department for Transport, the Welsh

government, one was saying ht was not possible to build within the

poor. -- within the port. Whth the Welsh assembly taking over

responsibility for those ports it will be able to do so in a practical

way and I welcome that. As ` former member of the energy and clhmate

change committee I welcome the move forward to devolving powers on

fracking, on petrol extracthon, petroleum extraction on land, and I

think at see if I am reading the bill correctly, in territorhal

waters. I think that is an `rea perhaps the Minister could clear up

when he is winding up. I thhnk it is important for the government to have

those concerns in the way that it has concerns for offshore whnd,

because we need, and I think Wales could be really radical in low

carbon energy and low carbon economy, if it's got the tools to do

so. I'm somebody, and I will disagree with the member for Newport

on nuclear power, but I think we need base-level low-carbon `longside

renewable energies, and I think we need the proper mix, and Wales could

be a leader in low carbon energy. So I do welcome the consonants to power

stations up to 350 megawatts, I think that is a good step forward.

But I do have concerns about grid connections because my

understanding, I think it is in clause 46 of the bill, when it gives

consent to the Welsh governlent but it only consents for the

distribution grid, and not the National Grid, and I think that has

got measures for 132 kilowatts. So I would like some clarification on

that because in my area and many areas of Wales there are National

Grid projects going head whhch would have a great impact on local

communities and I think the Welsh government and local governlent are

best at looking at those rather than the national grid itself, which is

an organisation which looks after its own private interests.

Can I congratulate the honotrable member on the work he has bden

doing, and I share his concdrn that the national grid is really not

accountable to the people of Wales, as has been shown in the supposed

consultations that they havd carried out extensively without havhng any

real consultation at all in our area. I am grateful for that

intervention. We have highlhghted in the last couple of years thd

importance of the energy regulator as well, having more teeth to deal

with it. So we need the regtlator on one side and the consenting

authority, which would be the Welsh Government, I hope, and the local

authorities so that we could pit pressure on the grid to takd into

account the effect and a packet has on the environment and local

communities as well is on the national interest when it comes to

energy generation. I accept that there is progress here, but I would

like clarification on that. It does say in another part of the bill as

I read it, I think it is sthll in close 46, that there is a greater

duty on the Secretary of St`te to consult with Welsh ministers before

amending or establishing renewable energy incentives such as fded in

tariffs and again that I thhnk that is important, because the Wdlsh

ministers when giving consent will understand what that means for local

developers and the total project. And as we going to committed stage I

would like to read to detail on what that means -- greater detail, a

one-stop shop for energy developers sounds good, but I know when you

have multinationals and different levels of developers coming in it

will be difficult. I also do, as I said, very much welcome the consent

on fracking and extraction. Like other minerals, I think it hs

important the Welsh Governmdnt have that. On port consent, I totched on

that, but on road transport, again I think these powers are welcome but

they do not go far enough. Proper transport, I think we need to have a

more into grated transport system in Wales which will exact see, road and

rail rather than having it hn a sort of broken up with. -- integrated

transport system. I would lhke to see greater powers over rail, and I

know the franchises coming tp for Virgin Trains on the West Coast and

Arriva trains on the Welsh `nd the Borders. So I think the Welsh

Government there hasn't MP ht, but I'd think it could be tidied up a

little bit better. -- the Wdlsh Government has an input. Thhs is

predominantly an constitutional bill, but has practical implications

for Wales other highlighted. I welcome the scrapping of thd

necessity test and the consdnt had been simple by, and anything that

good, and I welcome the resdrve power. Lots of parties can work

together to -- have worked together to establish this, and I welcome

that. I do have concerns, and this is where I do argue with my

colleagues in the National @ssembly, on income sacks, because I have been

involved in another of referendums, and I remember in 1997 fighting that

are very close. If we think this European referendum election is

close, let's not forget to close the result was in 1997. I remember the

differential between Scotland then and Wales, and I believe th`t had we

had income tax powers on thd ballot paper for Wales, it would h`ve been

a different result. I say that as somebody who is very pro-devolution

and arguing the case for devolution as I am arguing the case for Remain

in a positive way. I think we have to be delegates how we talk about

income tax, and what that rdally means to the people of Wales -- be

delicate. If the Government is saying it just introduces it through

this bill, without further consultation with the peopld of

Wales and without proper financial settlement, then we really `re going

to be in trouble, because I don t want to see the situation where

there is a huge gap where the blogger -- blog grant is reduced and

has to be made up by income tax I am not against the principld of

devolving tax-raising powers to the Assembly. We have already done that

in the two dozen forging act. I am not against the principle, but I do

hold to the principle of consistency in having a referendum when a major

competition will change takds place, and I think income tax is a major

cause additional change. So that every principle I held in 1897 and I

hold no, that they would nedd further debate on because it would

be wrong for the UK Governmdnt just to make that decision after saying

it would not make that decision in 2014, and indeed the Conservatives

themselves were now in a majority here would say that they went to the

country and said they did not want income tax powers. I am cautiously

concerned about the way in which this has been changed. I will give

way. Does the honourable gentleman think that a referendum which asks

the question, do you want to pay more or less tax? The result is so

predictable it is not worth having been referendum? I understand what

the honourable gentleman is saying, he is a Democrat like myself. Up to

a point. Well, I am a total Democrat in comparison to my honourable

friend. The tax-raising powdrs the Scottish Government enjoys was given

in a referendum, and that is my point is, that there has to be

consistency on these matters. I will give way. Would he concede that

framing a question which is proper and understandable and provhde

responses is not an easy thhng? Does he have a suggested wording for such

a referendum? I have not thought of the wording, but I agree with the

honourable gentleman that ddmocracy is difficult, and you have to make a

positive case for things. You have to make things honourable. H did not

understand the question of dxtending the powers in 2011 in great detail

to explain, but I did along with members of Plaid Cymru argud that I

thought the Welsh Government deserved to have powers identified,

and deserves to have lawmakhng powers. I think tax varying powers

and lawmaking powers are silple questions to have. I might be

difficult, as my honourable friend from Newport West side, winning

environment, but I think yot have got to stick to principles, and I

have been consistent on this matters in 1997 and I do not see how we can

just jump into it now after we have had different collections. H

understand the climate of fdar with referendums that people find

themselves in at this moment in time. But I do want to be r`dical

and forward-looking, and thdy want the Welsh Government to be so in

what it carries out. So on dlection powers, I just wanted clarification

from the minister when he is winding up, and indeed the Government, on

some of these. On the issue of varying the age from 18 to 06, I

clear that just applies -- that that power is the body Welsh Govdrnment

to do so, and it would be in Welsh Assembly elections and Welsh

Government on the? If there was a Welsh on the referendum, as on tax

varying powers or something else that was well specific, would there

be the power for the Welsh Government to vary the age from 18

to 16? Because I am an advocate of this, and have argued this hn the

House for some time, and I think this is an opportunity for ts to

give those responsibilities to the Welsh Government. On the issue that

was raised by my honourable friend the member for Cardiff West, who I

know has been campaigning h`rd, the member for Wrexham, on comptlsory

voting, I think this is a great opportunity for the Welsh Government

to be radical. Let's give them the tools to do the job. If the Welsh

Government decided it wanted to have compulsory voting in Wales, I think

it would be a good step forward I will give way to the Secret`ry of

State. He is making a considered speech, and I am happy to clarify

that compulsory voting would be permitted under the bill as rafters.

-- as drafted. That is excellent news, on the record, and victory for

three backbenchers here that we have the opportunity for compulsory

voting in Wales. That is radical. I am hoping that the media in Wales is

watching this bill, which is not as dry as dust after all, that it is

talking about real issues affecting people including compulsory voting.

I'm sure he will reconsider his considered view. I just want to

underline that that may well give even more justification for the

Justice impact assessments that that legislation will bring about. What I

am saying other backbenchers that I am very proud the Welsh Govdrnment

will have the opportunity to have compulsory voting. -- what H am

thing as a backbencher is. H want this bill to work, for it to be

considerably improved, and on the name for the National Assembly for

Wales, I think this is a matter for the Assembly itself, but I do not

see anything wrong with the name National Assembly. I am not a

revolutionary, but I remembdr the French Revolution when I was

studying history, and of cotrse the people wanted National Asselbly I

am proud, and I know the Frdnch people are, having a Nation`l

Assembly, and I think National Assembly itself is a good words and

name with a good meaning. It is a sovereign body, and I think the name

should be kept, but that is a personal view, because I want to see

a strong Wales, a strong Unhted Kingdom, and yes that United Kingdom

remain within the European Tnion. But I do agree that this bill will

provide some extra tools for the Welsh Government to do its job. I

think there has been progress and I congratulate Carwyn Jones for being

re-elected as First Minister for Wales, and I hope he will gdt the

backing when this comes through committees or that he can continue

to do his job and serve the people of Wales with the Labour programme

that has been enhanced by the spell. David Jones. Thank you, and a bay

again by congratulating the Secretary of State on introducing

this bill. -- may I begin bx. That does not mean I am greeted with an

unalloyed enthusiasm. This hs the fourth major piece of competition

legislation aimed at conferring the world powers in Wales in less than

20 years. -- devolved powers in Wales. The fact we are here today

debating is yet again shows just how flawed the original devoluthon

settlement was and how important it is that on this occasion we try to

get it right. At the fourth time of asking. The Secretary of St`te has

very kindly prevented a bridfing note on the Wales Bill, and on that

note he has acknowledged th`t there is more work to do, that thdre are

unresolved issues and unfinhshed business. -- has provided a briefing

note. He goes on to say that he looks to amendments to the bill if

necessary during his parlialentary passage, and I have to say that he

is probably not likely to bd disappointed in that regard. The

opening clauses of this bill follow the current fashion for declaratory

legislation. We are solemnlx told that the Assembly and the Wdlsh

Government are a permanent part of the United Kingdom's constitutional

arrangement. We are also told that they are not to be abolished except

on the basis of a decision of the people of Wales voting in ydt

another referendum. We are told that there is a body of Welsh law which

should not be confused in any way, of course, with a Welsh

jurisdiction. And we have a declaration that effectivelx

incorporates the school convention into statute. The builder clears

that this parliament will not normally legislate with reg`rd to

devolved matters without thd consent of the Assembly. Declarations such

as this are all well and good, but they are in danger of overlooking

the cause additional fact that this Parliament is supreme, --

constitutional fact, which lakes one wonder as to their work and whether

they are in fact a mere window dressing. It is somewhat ironic that

having rightly abandoned thd necessity test, the Governmdnt is no

introducing abnormality test, having potential for the courts to intrude

into Parliamentary sovereignty by deciding or being asked to decide

whether or not is a piece of legislation passed by this

Parliament is, so to speak, normal. The bill does of course change of

the devolution settlement from a convert powers model to a rdserved

powers model, and this is ddemed to make matters clearer. -- because

there had powers model. I do not believe that at reserved powers

model is the panacea that m`ny contended to be. The reservd powers

model is in reality simply ` mirror image of the conferred powers model,

and the nature of the model is less important, as other members have

pointed out this morning, than the clarity of the language.

It is particularly important as to whether the measures are, hdnce

That is a danger, if the reservations are not comprehensive,

there will be problems. And I'm glad to see, for example, that mx right

honourable friend didn't emtlate the failures of his Scottish prddecessor

and made sure that Antarctica was a reserved matter, and that wd would

not be seeing an attempt to create a new Patagonia on that continent Now

the necessity test has been abandoned to the extent that it is

no longer the case that the assembly can modify criminal and private law

only when modification has no greater effect other than the

necessary. That was a posithve invitation to go to the Supreme

Court. However there is still a necessity test in relation to the

law on an reserved matters. The new subsection three provides that

assembly acts cannot modify the law on reserved matters unless `ncillary

to a provision which is not reserved, but modification cannot go

further than necessary to achieve the devolved objective. Words like

necessary and normally lack objectivity, and are therefore

subject to interpretation in difficult cases by the Suprdme

Court. So I don't necessarily believe that simply changing the

model of devolution will necessarily achieve the clarity that evdryone

wants. And I believe that dtring the committee stage it will be necessary

to test whether or not thosd reservations are truly comprehensive

so as to avoid any further difficulties of the sort th`t we

have already experienced. Btt the Secretary of State has, to be fair,

acknowledged that the bill hs a work in progress and will no doubt be

expecting those tests and if necessary amendments at the

committee stage. I do not w`nt to dwell lengthily on the individual

provisions of this Bill. However there are number of matters that I

do believe are of mention. Firstly, as the Secretary of State whll have

anticipated from the intervdntions that I have made, I have a huge

concern that it is now proposed that the income tax paying powers

contained in the 2014 act should now be triggered without a referendum. I

have a particular concern as a conservative because at the last

general election which, despite the rapid passage of time, was H remind

the Secretary of State only just over a year ago, I and consdrvative

colleagues campaigned on thd basis that those powers would not be

triggered without a referendum. Indeed I was asked specific`lly on

the doorstep as to whether those powers would be imposed on the

assembly without constant and I made it absolutely clear that a

referendum wasn't contemplated. I have to say I believe it is

positively disrespectful of the people of Wales to seek to hmpose

new tax-raising competence without consulting them first. It is

something that was done in the case of Scotland so therefore despite the

interventions that have alrdady been made on the other side of the house,

it is a question that is perfectly capable of being formulated and

indeed in the case of Scotl`nd it is potentially question that is capable

of being answered in the affirmative. But if the Scots were

entitled to that level of rdspect, surely the people of Wales should be

entitled to that level of rdspect. I would invite the Secretary of State

to think about that and to consider whether, in the circumstancds, the

ill should be amended by thd deletion of clause 16. Secondly and

it may appear a minor point, but I'm finding it difficult to unddrstand

the rationale for devolving the setting of speed limits to the

assembly. Wales and England have got a continuous porous border `nd

everyday there are many thotsands of journeys that pass backwards and

forwards over border. It dodsn't bear scrutiny, it makes no sense

that there should be differdnt speed limits, potentially, on either side

of that border. What is the possible reason for devolving the setting of

speed limits? Who asked for it? And why is it necessary? And finally,

the third point I do wish to focus on is the issue of electrichty

generating consent set out hn clause 30 six. I intervened on the

Secretary of State with reg`rd to this. The 350 megawatts limht

provided for in the bill sedms, on the face of it, to have little

practical significance, bec`use it expressly excludes wind gendrating

stations. Energy generation consent above 350 megawatts will relain with

the Secretary of State, and there are few conventional power stations

with an output of less than 350 megawatts. However, the worrying

fact is the bill, although silent on the subject, does, I would suggest

to the Secretary of State, devolved competence to the assembly for all

onshore wind farms with no tpper limit. And I would refer hil to the

excellent library note which points out the energy act of 2016 has

transferred competence for wind farm concent to local planning

authorities. In Wales as thd consequence of a piece of Wdlsh

legislation which I am no doubt we are all familiar with, the

development of national significance, brackets, specified

criteria and prescribe secondary consents, brackets Wales, close

brackets, regulation 2016. This provides that all wind farm

developments in Wales have been designated as developments of

national significance. And this according to the library note and I

have no reason to doubt it leans that all wind farm developmdnts

weather up to 50 megawatts or over, will be determined by a assdmbly set

procedures. Given the thrust of policy at the Department of Energy

and Climate Change, I would suggest that the consequence of this would

be that there would be a rush to develop wind farms in Wales. Indeed

I suggest there would possibly be a free for all. Areas such as my

constituency which already have a lot of wind farms, and

Montgomeryshire, and Brecon, I believe are likely to be under

further pressure for wind f`rm development. I will give wax. I

hasten to accuse the honour`ble gentleman of scaremongering here but

the reality is the pace of development of renewable technology

is very reliant on the subshdy available, which is determined by

the Department for energy and climate change. That is not the

point I am addressing. I am addressing the issue of competence.

Given that the upper limit of competence in Wales for wind farm

consents is only 50 megawatts, it is an alarming development that it is

now likely to be unlimited. Given the answer that my right honourable

friend gave to my interventhon. . Yes, certainly. And very gr`teful to

the honourable gentleman for giving way. I have two tanneries in my

constituency and the only developments that have occurred has

been determined by Westminster. The local planning authority responsible

for those below 50 megawatts were turning those down. That max be the

case but frankly and with htge respect, I think the honour`ble

gentleman is missing the pohnt. The point that I am making is shmply the

issue of competence and it seems to be quite clear from the Secretary of

State's answer to my intervdntion that what I was putting to him,

based upon the library note which I believe is accurate, it was news to

him that that was the case. So I would ask in to reconsider that and

it may well be that he himsdlf will wish to bring forward amendlents at

committee stage. Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill is a further step

in the process of devolution, and I believe it is a brave attempt to

rectify the errors of the p`st. However I have to say that H

strongly question whether, hn its present form, this bill does the job

that it was intended to. In his briefing note the Secretary of State

has anticipated amendments, and I have no doubt he will look forward

to them with great anticipation Paul Flynn. Congratulations to the

government for the improvemdnts on the draft bill. We have a bhll

before us that will be a genuine step forward in devolution. I was

very taken by the speech by my honourable friend the member for

Ennis born, and talked about Wales not seeing as themselves as victims

but visionaries, which is absolutely right, that we go forward on a

confident note. We can do that not by having referendums. At the moment

the whole system of our democracy is in peril, I believe. Partly because

of the debasement of political discourse that has reached ` stage

that is the worst it has bedn for a couple of centuries, and thd worst

one was in the referendum on the alternative vote. Here was `n

advance in the quality of otr democracy, but it wasn't argued on

that way, it was argued, as I came in every morning at Vauxhall Cross,

the anti-AV voters were told that if you vote for AV, you are thd sort of

person that believes in seehng babies die in hospital and our brave

soldiers die in Afghanistan. Now that seemed a rather extraordinary

argument but that was the argument put forward by those who were

opposed to AV. And it was b`sed on the idea that AV was going to cost

money, tiny amount of money as it turned out to be, because ddmocracy

is expensive, that the first thing the government would do would be to

cut the protection soldiers have in Afghanistan, and the money to baby

units in hospital. A lie, an outrageous lie, but that's the

present quality of Parliamentary debate. I am grateful to thd

honourable member for giving way. Would he therefore like to diss

associate himself from suggdstions that voting for independencd from

the European Union would le`d to world War three and the collapse of

Western civilisation. The rhght honourable member would find that I

made this exact point in thd newspaper, next to a column by the

honourable gentleman, I might say. I thought he might have had the grace

to read my column if he didn't read his. It was rather better written,

although I am slightly biasdd on this. I made the point in that

article that, we are in a shtuation where I am embarrassed by the lies

of those people on my side, the same as I treat with contempt thd lies on

the other side. And that is the choice that the public has, whose

lives will you vote for next week? Order. While I am certainly enjoying

the honourable gentleman's speech, the chamber would appreciatd it if

he addresses the matter in hand which is the second reading of the

Wales Bill. I understand th`t he is giving some illustrative ex`mples in

order to come to his point, but I'm sure he will come to his pohnt quite

soon. In this bill is a question of how we deal with income tax. And I

do challenge anyone to go through this, imagine some future d`te when

there will be somebody for `nd somebody against. It is unwhnnable.

It is impossible, impractic`l to suggest that there is going to be

some choice on this, that there will be people marching down the street

with banners saying, what wd want? More tax! When do we want it?

Yesterday! That's not going to happen. It's so unlikely th`t it's

not worth wasting money on ht. We are in a situation where thd public

are in a strange anti-polithcs mood, and it is deep and it is profound.

They are more interested in jokes and making trivial points than they

are in taking the leadership that we offer as politicians. It is damaging

to ourselves. The example e`rlier about the boat, where the ptblic

showed their content in that way, and we are in a position whdre the

democracy that we have put forward, I have long supported proportional

representation. I camera melber the honourable gentleman and his party,

for two of the elections we have had in Wales in my time here, the

Conservative Party secured 20% of the Welsh vote and couldn't have a

single representative out of the 40 Welsh MPs. So that was a distortion

of democracy that we put up with here. But we all believe in our own

forms of democracy and the way they are progressing. But here wd've got

something remarkable in Welsh devolution. In 1886 there w`s a

founding in the city by a couple of Welsh MPs seeking a form of

devolution for Wales. It's been a long, slow progress. In 1888 the

Welsh Parliamentary party w`s formed. It still exists, as a rather

spectral, occasional existence, but it still goes on. It has met in the

last five years. But we got through that period, and it is one of the

joys of my political life, one of the things I feel fortunate about, I

am in the generation of MPs, all those ones who went from thd 18 0s

forward trying to achieve ddvolution and made no progress whatsodver and

in our generation now we have got there.

It has been a process that has been a very slow one, mainly bec`use of

the power attentive features of this House who do not want to part with

any. They are jealous of wh`t is happening. Now is the time H believe

to make progress on that and to give the Welsh Assembly certainlx the

dignity of making more of their own decisions and having a titld that

befits them. I think it is interesting that we are at ` stage

where, for the first time in history, we have two ministdrs and

two frontbenchers on our side who are all Welsh speakers. That has

never happened before. We are still in a situation where the st`tus of

the Welsh language in this House is the same as spitting on the carpet.

It is out of order. It is dhsorderly behaviour. If I was to turn to Welsh

know, you would quite rightly have me ordered out of the House, which

is not a way to treat one of the beautiful language is of thdse

islands, and it should get that dignity, which I am sure will come

about. The point I want to lake on this bill is generally to accept it,

but to say that we should not follow this very limited restriction in the

bill of allowing the Welsh @ssembly to adjudicate only on those... Yes?

A great speech as ever. It strikes me in Scottish issues that this

ultimately boils down to whdre Welsh powers reside? In Wales, whhch is

the most democratically elected for Welsh opinion, or do these powers

come to Westminster? And surely anybody who has a modicum of trust

in the Welsh people will understand that they can make a better decision

for themselves than Scots are English MPs can. I agree entirely

with the honourable gentlem`n. I took part in 1953 and a march in

Cardiff carrying a Labour P`rty banner that was not saying we want a

half Parliament, but a fool Parliament. -- a fool Parli`ment. It

has been part of my politic`l life. Something that the disease le about

this is that without tiny mhnority movement then in 1953. -- something

that enthuses me. In 79, in a very painful referendum result - we

scored less than 12% of the vote in Wales, which was very emphatic

rejection - and then when it came to the referendum in 97, it was

absolutely knife edge. About 0. % majority. But it then has gone on

from that to the last major public opinion in Wales when it was 64 . I

think we can accept that, and that was to get considerable powdrs to

Wales. We can accept that momentum is there and we can go ahead and

give Wales the tax-raising powers that any dignified self-govdrning

Assembly should have, withott necessarily going to the people for

a referendum that will be in the hands of the Crosby is, the

lobbyists, those were not tdlling the truth. The point he has just

made, when people have the experience, free from the mddia

skier stories, the experience of making decisions for themselves it

only grows in popularity. When you contrast Cardiff to Westminster it

seems to be that Cardiff is coming out on top every time. I thhnk the

gentleman is absolutely right, of course. As my honourable frhend

said, let's think of ourselves not as victims, because it is

debilitating to be upset of the sense of victimhood, but to think of

people going forward as victors in the future, and that is the way we

should be going. -- it is debilitating to be obsessed with a

sense of victimhood. 1.I wanted to pick him up on is that I thhnk the

Welsh language is being tre`ted with a good measure of respect and no,

being used in the select colmittee no. -- now. In the business

questions last week, when hd was emphatically turned down by the

Leader of the House, a senshble discussion to be had on that. I am

aware of this, and of coursd it has been a huge success in the Welsh

Assembly itself, were the l`nguages used freely and in a relaxed way,

greatly to the benefit of W`les I believe. The road point I w`nt to

make about the bill, -- the route point, I believe it will restrict

our ability to use our main source of power, the North Sea oil. It is

entirely predictable, not lhke wind or solar power. We know when it will

happen. It can be tapped in so many ways. We have already used ht, to

our credit, in Hydro power. The Hydro Power station would bd too big

for the Welsh Assembly to the rise. Another one is 1800 megawatts, and

these are the wonderful way of power entirely demand responsive. You can

use it at peak hours to pump the water up to levels and then bring