Browse content similar to 19/04/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The Ten Minute Rule Motion, Mr David Burrowes. | :00:31. | :00:38. | |
Mr Speaker, I beg to move that we've be given to bring any bill to look | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
at the assessment and enforcement of child assessment arrangements. I | :00:44. | :00:51. | |
welcome the great interest and attendance of honourable members for | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
my bill but feel like a filler in the summit of the Prime Minister. | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
The attention will be focused on the next motion rather than on my bill, | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
however, many parents have waited all too long for the child | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
maintenance for their children and will not let a general election get | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
in the way of their campaign. The campaign message at the heart of my | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
bill, the use the parlance of the Prime Minister is that we need a | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
Child Maintenance Service that will work for everyone, not just the | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
privileged few. This issue... Order. Stop the clock. I appreciate the | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
interest in other matters, but the subject matter of the honourable | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
gentleman's Bill is of very great importance to shoot numbers of | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
parents and children around the country and I think it is to put it | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
mildly unseemly that while the honourable gentleman is speaking of | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
his bill, there are a number of rather animated private | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
conversations taking place, including those being conducted by | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
those enormously courteous members of the House, so as they house can | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
settle down and listen to the eloquence of the honourable | :02:02. | :02:03. | |
gentleman, I think we would all be grateful for that. | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
It is also an issue across different parties but has been Andy Cole of | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
the Tory Party this that the government that recognises the | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
principle that all parents have responsibility to contribute to the | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
upkeep of children. The state will step in where necessary. It is | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
therefore parents in need of child maintenance who have nowhere else to | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
turn. As such, it must cater for all children, including those whose | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
parents are self-employed, who have complex financial affairs. Mr | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
Speaker, my interest in this issue has arisen from the case of my | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
constituent Elizabeth who is in attendance today. As well as four | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
other equally and brave determined women, which may honourable friend | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
refers to as super mums, there will be other people with very similar | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
like-minded women that have come to their surgery. Others include | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
Joanne, Sue and Kate who have pursued their cases for years and | :03:05. | :03:07. | |
could write the text on how nonresident parents could easily a | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
data system by claiming self-employment. The challenge in | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
the system of assets and lifestyle incompatible with earnings have been | :03:16. | :03:22. | |
removed and done so any process. It is these flaws that have led me to | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
introduce this bill and to have an inquiry into the CMS which is due to | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
report imminently. The fact of the matter is if your child has a | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
nonresident parent that is self employed, you are at risk of being | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
financially disadvantaged compared to a child whose nonresident parent | :03:40. | :03:47. | |
is employed. Nonresident self-employed parents are being | :03:48. | :03:49. | |
indulged by DCMS. The government's defends the discharge of injustice | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
is that closing the loopholes, which enables such child maintenance | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
avoidance is, I quote, expensive and time-consuming to do so. However, | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
the government does not take such a relaxed attitude when it comes to | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
individuals who avoid paying benefits or indeed taxes. The HMRC | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
56,000 strong tax collecting department with an annual budget of | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
over ?4 billion, if this money fails to get a grip of nonresident parents | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
who hide their income from the CMS by exploiting legal loopholes. It is | :04:18. | :04:24. | |
welcome that the DWP has beefed up its financial investigations unit to | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
a team of 50 and it is good that the Minister of welfare delivery is | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
listening today and said to the Work and Pensions Select Committee that | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
they have powers to look Pike accounts and tax records and seek to | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
clarify where things just do not add up. Mr Speaker, I do not believe | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
this is good enough. Children should not be paying the price for the | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
ongoing injustice over child maintenance, there is an estimated | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
52 and a half million unpaid maintenance which means that fewer | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
than half of eligible children do not receive anything at all. Now, | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
Elizabeth's Sun is one of those who should not be paying for the ?40,000 | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
price of what he is owed over six years in child maintenance. Simply | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
because his father as a clever accountant who can help to hide his | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
assets in non-income gearing accounts, businesses and property. | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
This maintenance liability would not have been uncovered without the | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
determination of his mother Elizabeth taking the case under the | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
old system through the tribunal hearings and relying on the old rule | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
which allows for assets variation. They eventually revealed that the | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
other parent's assets valuing some ?800,000 from the sale of various | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
businesses and inheritance. And found that he could pay regularly | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
seen SPA maintenance to support their teenage son. The problem that | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
my bill seeks to resolve is that under the 2012 CMS scheme, the same | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
parents are held to legitimately have e-mailed child maintenance | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
liability, it was then 40,000, it would now be zero. Based largely on | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
gross taxable income figures provided by HMRC. This model I | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
accept works for the majority of straightforward cases, were paying | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
parents all income should be PAYE employment, it works less well with | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
the peeing payment -- parents takes payment and other forms. That does | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
not work at all when the peeing parent's living costs are met | :06:23. | :06:24. | |
through income that does not show up at HMRC. Income from ISAs, venture | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
capitalists trust funds and there are some nonresident parents who | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
support their lifestyle from different incomes, for example, from | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
substantial assets with no apparent income, capital gains from property | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
transactions. Such paying parents have no child maintenance liability | :06:44. | :06:44. | |
at all. And what it will all civil cases but | :06:45. | :06:57. | |
more complicated is weak and leads to injustice. This injustice is | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
compounded by the 2012 rules not only abolishing the grounds to | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
challenge assessments but although cutting of the avenue for address | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
through the courts. The governments's responds to my | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
constituent Elizabeth is that the assets and ground for variation | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
proved difficult to a minister and difficult for them to understand. | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
What has proved difficult for my constituent, Elizabeth, is to obtain | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
justice for the maintenance of her son. What is difficult for a lot of | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
the understand is why the state have chosen to prioritise its own | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
administrative convenience of the interest of her child. The work and | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
pensions like an easy enquiry into this issue has heard evidence from | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
parents with other nonresident parent is having a lifestyle does | :07:42. | :07:43. | |
not match the nonresident parent is having a lifestyle does not matter | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
because income. This will go to the HMRC and contact them on their top | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
line, only to be left in limbo because nonresident parents are not | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
committing tax fraud part are avoiding child maintenance because | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
they can hide by their self-employed status. They have organised their | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
affairs in an efficient manner, putting income in terms of not | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
earnings. What mums net was told by one mother was to accept a payment | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
from my ex as he was self-employed and he was the best she could hope | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
for. Regardless of evidence he could pay more from a very successful | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
business, multiple properties and, in her words, more physical access | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
than you could imagine. -- asset. Vienna where has said Britain was my | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
child maintenance of the contributing to a culture where to | :08:35. | :08:36. | |
many parents think it is optional relatively Tory to pay their child | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
maintenance. -- rather than obligatory. One person can avoid | :08:41. | :08:49. | |
paying child maintenance because one tax year removed liability. Why? | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
Because in that yeah, he bought a crock. The CMS should not allow the | :08:54. | :09:01. | |
financial access of a crock to come before a child. The state should not | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
be accessible. -- truck. The woman has an eye on the self-employed you | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
make the tax system work everyone. That should include the Child | :09:10. | :09:18. | |
Maintenance System as well. The CMS should not cater for Company | :09:19. | :09:20. | |
directors and those are financially public affairs. The grounds | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
previously available within the scheme, whereby notional income | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
could be assumed, where a paying parent's lifestyle was assumed, | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
should be available within a new scheme. A new variation garage | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
available with a scheme where -- ground. Capable of providing | :09:40. | :09:46. | |
reasonable level of return where a parent can do this with good reason, | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
bearing in mind the maintenance responsibility for the children. My | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
bill will also grant equal jurisdiction where nonresident | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
parents and assets or a lifestyle inconsistent with income and the CMS | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
is unable or incapable of determining the support. While my | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
bill originally comes at the end of this Parliament, it may just help | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
from the publication in the spring report to set up conclusions of a | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
review into the progress of CMS and state future policy. In 2012, the | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
noble lord flight said we will make clear our intentions with specific | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
review to the these parents. That one could be called families of | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
which the fee would seek to exempt. The campaign was led, saying child | :10:32. | :10:39. | |
maintenance crew had left families out of poverty. The lack of child | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
maintenance should be another burning justice for the covenant to | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
tackle. Given the next notion, I appreciate that Dell is the least | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
likely ever to become law in this parliamentary session. Some may | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
think, sit down, get on with the general election motion. There is | :10:57. | :10:58. | |
every point in highlighting on behalf of our constituents calling | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
for unfairness to children. This may be an early bid for the Conservative | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
manifesto. It may also be aim more public bid for the next Queen 's | :11:11. | :11:18. | |
speech. Either way, I look forward to a fairer child maintenance system | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
for all. The question is that the honourable gentleman have leave to | :11:23. | :11:34. | |
bring any bill. As many who are supportive, ayes. The ayes habit. | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
Caroline spell and Timothy Mapleton, Tanya Mathias. Those working ani, | :11:42. | :11:53. | |
Nigel Adams and get my tells and me. -- Kit Martells. Mr David Burrowes. | :11:54. | :12:17. | |
Child maintenance assessment of parent income bail. Second reading, | :12:18. | :12:28. | |
what day? The 12th of May, I suppose. | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
LAUGHTER I shall delete the last two words | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
ordered uttered by the honourable gentleman. The 12th of May. We now | :12:40. | :12:47. | |
come to the bill on the moving the notion of the parliamentary General | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
election. Moving the notion, I call the Prime Minister. Thank you, and I | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
beg to move motion on the order paper in my name and that of my | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
honourable friends. That's mentioned confronts every member of this house | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
with a clear and simple opportunity. A chance to vote for a general | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
election that will secure the strong and stable leadership the country | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
needs to see us through Brexit and beyond. It invites each one of us to | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
do the right thing for Britain and duvet for an election that is in our | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
country's national interest. -- to vote. My priority as Prime Minister | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
when I became so that was to present the country with strong leadership | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
after the long and passionately fought referendum campaign. This | :13:33. | :13:34. | |
covenant has delivered on those priorities. -- Government. | :13:35. | :13:45. | |
Despite... I will. In the time-honoured fashion, my honourable | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
friend has called this election in what she and I consider to be in the | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
national interest. It'll be a brave man or woman who votes against this | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
notion and therefore the fixed term Parliament act is an emperor without | :13:58. | :14:05. | |
clothes. It sees no purpose. Will the first line they, in our | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
manifesto, to scrap its? My honourable friend is trying to tempt | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
me down a road about the fixed Jim Parliament act does give us an | :14:16. | :14:17. | |
opportunity notwithstanding the fixed term element of it to have | :14:18. | :14:24. | |
another election at another time. -- fixed term. The house you doubt on | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
that. Every member of this house should vote for it. If I just | :14:29. | :14:36. | |
returned to, I will take one more... The Prime Minister pledged time and | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
time again not to call an early election. In her Easter message, she | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
spoke of Christian values. Gucci explain why he has such a ruse and | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
promulgated relationship with telling the truth? -- such a | :14:48. | :14:57. | |
complicated relationship. The Prime Minister can tend for herself, but | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
what the honourable gentleman has said is a breach. He is a | :15:02. | :15:10. | |
journalist. Withdraw that and use some other formulation if you must. | :15:11. | :15:17. | |
I am very happy. I will withdraw and reformulate. Why does the Prime | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
Minister have such a complicated and loose relationship with giving the | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
country a clear indication of her intentions? To say to the honourable | :15:27. | :15:34. | |
gentleman, yesterday, I gave the country a very clear indication of | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
my intentions and if he has a little patience, he will head the reasons | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
why I have done that. As I was saying, the Government has delivered | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
on the priorities I set out last year. Despite immediate predictions | :15:47. | :15:53. | |
of immediate economic and financial danger, we have recognised that of | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
jobs, a telegram exceeding all expectations. At the same time, we | :15:58. | :16:00. | |
have delivered on the mandate we were handed by the referendum result | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
by triggering article 50 before the end of March as he pledged to do. As | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
a result, Britain is leaving the EU and can be no turning back. I will | :16:11. | :16:17. | |
take one more. Doesn't it take some drastic to call a general election | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
when you are facing allegations of buying the last one? I have to say, | :16:21. | :16:28. | |
that intervention was not worthy of the honourable gentleman. Can the | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
Prime Minister just clarify for us, does he support fixed term | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
Parliament? We have a fixed term Parliament act that enables us to | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
have such. I believe that, at this point in time, it is right for us to | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
have this debate, have this late in this house and I believe it is right | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
for members of this house to vote and I will explain why, for us to | :16:54. | :16:56. | |
have a general election at this stage. I will not take any further | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
interventions for a while, this is a limited time debate and honourable | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
members wished to make contributions. Today, we face a new | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
question, how do we face, get the stability we need in your long-term | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
to get the right deal for Britain in Brexit negotiations and making those | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
the opportunities I have? I have come to the conclusion that the | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
answer to that question is to hold a general election now in this window | :17:24. | :17:26. | |
of opportunity for the negotiations begin. I believe it is in Britain's | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
national interest to holding election now, a general election is | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
the best way to look at the negotiations ahead because securing | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
the right deal for Britain is my priority and I'm confident we have | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
the plan to do it. We have set out our ambition come a deep and special | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
partnership between a strong and successful European Union and a | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
United Kingdom that is free to chart its own way in the world. It | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
means... Just a minute. It means he will regain control of our own | :18:00. | :18:02. | |
money, laws and orders and we will be free to strike trade deals with | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
old friends and new partners all around the world. I give way. I'm | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
very grateful to the Prime Minister forgiving way and I can understand | :18:14. | :18:16. | |
she was to give the house the opportunity to determine whether | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
there should be an election. If they determine now is the time, why does | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
she stand in the face of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
Government that have doubted for a referendum in Scotland's future? If | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
it the people here have a voice and a bit on the future of this country, | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
why should these godless people not be given neither as well? Now is the | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
tie-break general election because it will our hand in the negotiations | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
of Brexit. -- time for a full stop it is not the time for a Scottish | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
independence referendum because it will weaken, and with the Brexit | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
negotiations. Division and weakness with Scottish National 's. This | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
means that we will... I will just make a little more progress. I | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
believe they will of the British people, our plan from Brexit is the | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
right approach for Britain and it'll deliver a more secure future for our | :19:12. | :19:14. | |
country and a better deal for all our people. It is clear, Mr Speaker, | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
that other parties in this house have a different view about the | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
right future for our country while members of the other place have | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
vowed to fight the Government every step of the way. I give way. | :19:27. | :19:35. | |
You and in June and Horo and government a mandate to exercise | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
Article 50, she has done that and we are grateful for the opportunity to | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
strengthen the hand of the Prime Minister so she can go out there and | :19:44. | :19:46. | |
get the best possible deal for people who live in my constituency, | :19:47. | :19:54. | |
our manufacturers there and every family in Rossendale and Darwin. | :19:55. | :19:56. | |
You are absolutely right and we should be united in this Parliament | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
in wanting to get that best possible deal, not just for the country as a | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
whole but everybody across the whole of this country and I commend my | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
honourable friend for the work that he has done in Rossendale and Darwin | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
in supporting his constituents on this. I will give way to the Right | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
honourable gentleman and then make progress. I can see how it suits the | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
purposes of the Prime Minister to make this election all about Brexit, | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
but can she accept the possibility that it may just become a referendum | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
on her brutal cuts which have left older people without care, schools | :20:28. | :20:29. | |
sending begging letters to parents and a record number of homeless | :20:30. | :20:37. | |
people on the streets of Greater Manchester? | :20:38. | :20:39. | |
I have to say to the right honourable gentleman, of course, the | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
general election when they come into the campaign people will look at a | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
wide range of issues, they both looked at the fact that pensioners | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
are ?1250 a year better off because of the actions of the Conservative | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
government and look at the fact that we have 1.8 million more children in | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
good or outstanding schools, but the Right Honourable gentleman wants to | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
talk about the impact on the economy, I suggest he searches in | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
his memory for the time he spent as Jesus -- Chief Secretary to the | :21:10. | :21:12. | |
Treasury when Labour trashing the economy of this country. Mr | :21:13. | :21:15. | |
Speaker... I will make progress, sorry. I have set up the divisions | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
that has become clear on this issue, they can and will be used against | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
us, weakening our hand in the negotiations to come and we must not | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
let that happen. I believe that at this moment of enormous national | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
significance, there should be unity here in Westminster, not division. | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
That is why it is the right and responsible thing for all of us here | :21:38. | :21:44. | |
today to vote for a general election to meet our respective cases to the | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
country and then to respect the result and the mandate it provides | :21:48. | :21:50. | |
to give Britain the strongest possible hand in the negotiations to | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
come. I give way to the honourable gentleman. Thank you. In the last | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
election, the Conservatives did a manifesto commitment to stay in the | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
single market, will she be withdrawn that commitment in the new manifesto | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
and if she does, but that's not weaken her negotiating position as | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
well as removing two months from the negotiating window? We give a | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
commitment in the last manifesto to provide people of the United Kingdom | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
with a vote on whether or not to believe the European Union, we get | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
them that Ford, that was supported by Parliament, we give them that | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
thought and studio gave a clear message that they want the UK to | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
leave the EU, that is exactly what we are going to do. -- gave them | :22:33. | :22:48. | |
that port. I am grateful to the Prime Minister and I fully support | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
the fact that she needs a stronger hand going into the negotiations as | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
we leave the EU. But she not they it perverse that some people who did | :22:55. | :22:56. | |
not want a referendum in the first is now want a second referendum at | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
the very end of the procedure, just in case the British government does | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
not get a good deal from Brussels? Does she not believe that if we were | :23:03. | :23:04. | |
to have that second referendum, it would decline weaken the position of | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
the Prime Minister in the negotiations she has with the | :23:08. | :23:09. | |
European Union? My right honourable friend is absolutely right in his | :23:10. | :23:11. | |
description of what would happen and I think... For those who have said | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
they want a second referendum, that is actually denying the will of the | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
people because people voted for us to leave the European Union and we | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
will go out there and get the best possible deal. Waiting to hold the | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
next election in 2020 as scheduled would mean that the negotiations | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
would reach the most difficult and sensitive stage just as the election | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
was looming on the horizon. A general election will provide the | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
country with five years of strong and stable leadership to see us | :23:40. | :23:47. | |
through the negotiations and ensure we are able to go on to make a | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
success as a result and that is crucial, that is the test, it is not | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
solely about how we leave the European Union, but what we do with | :23:54. | :23:55. | |
the opportunity that Brexit provides that counts. Leaving the EU offers | :23:56. | :24:02. | |
us a unique once in a generation opportunity to shape a brighter | :24:03. | :24:05. | |
future for Britain. We need the leadership provided by a strong and | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
stable government to seize it, a government that has a plan for a | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
stronger Briton, a government with the determination to see it through | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
and the government that will take the right long-term decisions that | :24:17. | :24:28. | |
will deliver a more secure future for Britain. The Conservative Party | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
I read is determined to be that government. I will give way. If the | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
Prime Minister at all concerned that having type best to build up a | :24:35. | :24:36. | |
reputation for political integrity, both as Home Secretary and Prime | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
Minister, she is now seen after all the denials there will be at a snap | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
election, simply as a political opportunist? I have not denied the | :24:46. | :24:52. | |
fact that when I came in to this rule as Prime Minister, I was clear | :24:53. | :24:54. | |
that what the country needed was stability and they also needed a | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
government that was going to show that it would deliver on the vote | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
people had taken any referendum on leaving the EU. We have provided | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
that over the last nine months, now it is clear to me that if we are | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
going to have the strongest possible hand in negotiation, we should have | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
an election now. As I have just said, leaving the election to 2020 | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
would mean that we would be coming to the most sensitive and critical | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
part of the negotiations in the run-up | :25:22. | :25:48. | |
to a general election, and that would be in the interest of not one. | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
Mr Speaker, I said that the Conservative Party that I beat the | :25:53. | :25:54. | |
terms to be that government that has the determination to see through its | :25:55. | :25:57. | |
plan for a stronger Briton, we are determined to provide that | :25:58. | :25:58. | |
leadership, determined to bring stability to the UK for the | :25:59. | :26:01. | |
long-term and that is what this election will be about. Leadership | :26:02. | :26:03. | |
and stability. I will give way. Does the Prime Minister appreciates | :26:04. | :26:05. | |
decisiveness and does she agree that voting yes in this motion signifies | :26:06. | :26:07. | |
strength, whereas abstaining is a symbol of weakness? | :26:08. | :26:09. | |
I have to say to my honourable friend that I think absolutely | :26:10. | :26:12. | |
voting yes it a sign of strength. I would say a little more about | :26:13. | :26:14. | |
abstaining, anyone who abstained and things we should not have a general | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
election presumably as endorsing the record of the Tory government. I am | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
grateful. Would she agreed with Lord Hill who was commissioner in Europe | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
when asked in front of the foreign affairs committee what the best | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
strategy for negotiation is, his response is that we must come | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
together because our into lockers will be watching this place and | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
exploit any weakness in our political system? My honourable | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
friend is absolutely right and I am grateful to him for reminding us | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
what with his experience Lord Hill said in relation to this issue. It | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
is important that we come together and do not show the divisions that | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
have been suggested in the past and we are able to show a strong mandate | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
for a plan for Brexit and for making a success of that. We are determined | :27:02. | :27:19. | |
to bring stability to the UK in the long-term and that is what this | :27:20. | :27:21. | |
election will be about, leadership and stability. And the decision | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
facing the country will be clear. I will be campaigning for strong and | :27:25. | :27:26. | |
reliable leadership and I will ask for the support of the public to | :27:27. | :27:29. | |
continue to deliver my plan for a stronger Briton to be the country to | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
the next five years and to give the country the certainty and stability | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
that we need. I will give way to the honourable lady. Thank you, Mr | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
Speaker. Thank you for giving way. On the timetable before yesterday, | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
the Prime Minister would have concluded her negotiation by 2019, | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
we would have gone into the election in 2020 one you later, talking about | :27:50. | :27:52. | |
the Prime Minister's deal. That would have given the country and | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
hardwood as to what they would have been voting for. The Prime Minister | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
is asking the country to strengthen her hand, what she is actually | :28:01. | :28:07. | |
doing, but she not agree, is asking the country to vote for a blank | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
cheque? I am not asking the country to write a blank cheque, we have | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
been very clear in terms of what they intend for the outcome of the | :28:17. | :28:19. | |
negotiations and I set that out in my speech in January at Lancaster | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
House, it has been set out in the article says the letter when it | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
giggled Article 50 and submitted that to the president of the | :28:28. | :28:30. | |
European Council as well as White Paper. Mr Speaker, I tell the House, | :28:31. | :28:33. | |
the House, the choice before us today is clear, I have made my | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
choice, it is to do something that runs through the brains of my party | :28:40. | :28:42. | |
more than any other, to trust the people, so let us what to do that | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
today, let us lay out our plans for Brexit, let us put forward the plans | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
for the future of this great country and put our faith in the hands of | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
the people and then let the people decide. The question is that there | :28:56. | :29:03. | |
shall be an early parliamentary general election. Mr Jeremy Corbyn. | :29:04. | :29:12. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. We welcome the opportunity of a general | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
election because it gives the British people the chance to vote | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
for a Labour government that will put the interests of the majority | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
first. The Prime Minister has said that she only recently and | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
reluctantly decided to go for a snap election. Just four weeks ago the | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
Prime minister's spokesperson said, "There is not going to be able early | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
general election. Was good how can any voter trust what the Prime | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
Minister says? Britain is being held back, held back by our government, | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
the Prime Minister approximately strong economy, but the truth is | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
that most people are worse off than they were when the Conservatives | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
came to power is seven years ago. The election gives the British | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
people the chance to change direction. This election is about | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
her government's fielder to rebuild the economy and living standards for | :30:08. | :30:15. | |
the majority. It is about the crisis are government has plunged her | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
national health service into, the cuts to our children's schools which | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
will limit the chances of every child in Britain. 4 million of whom | :30:25. | :30:33. | |
now live in poverty. A chant of an alternative to raise living | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
standards as more and more people do not have security in their work or | :30:37. | :30:43. | |
in their housing. Pars-mac a chance of an alternative. | :30:44. | :30:52. | |
I will give way to my friend, the member for Stoke-on-Trent. Mr Gareth | :30:53. | :31:05. | |
Snell. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker and | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
I will try not to take it personally that having arrived so early the | :31:12. | :31:14. | |
Prime Minister felt desperate to get rid of me that she is calling an | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
election. What I would say to my honourable friend, with my | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
honourable friend agreed that the Prime Minister, in calling this | :31:25. | :31:26. | |
election, essentially is saying that she does not have confidence and our | :31:27. | :31:32. | |
own government to deliver a Brexit deal for Britain? Only she could | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
secure the votes of myself and my only friend is to table a motion of | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
no-confidence in her own government which I would vote for. I thank my | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
friend for that intervention, I congratulate him on his election to | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
this House and I congratulate him on his work and I agree with him, I | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
have no confidence in this government either. | :31:53. | :31:59. | |
In the interests of unity in Stoke-on-Trent, what else can I do? | :32:00. | :32:07. | |
There are five towns, don't forget. Six. I'm grateful to my friend, he | :32:08. | :32:15. | |
highlighted the Prime Minister dithered over whether she wanted an | :32:16. | :32:18. | |
election and always said she didn't want one, but the reality is that | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
what has focused on mine is the fact she might lose some of her | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
backbenchers if the CPS have their way. -- focused her mind. The timing | :32:27. | :32:34. | |
of the election and the role of the CPS is extremely interesting in this | :32:35. | :32:37. | |
and it is interesting the Prime Minister did not mention it in her | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
contribution. I gave way to the gentleman here. I most grateful. He | :32:42. | :32:49. | |
talks about trust in leaders, what trust can the public but in a leader | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
who has no confidence from his parliamentary colleagues and is in | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
place by people who are not in parliament but from people who are | :32:58. | :33:04. | |
outside? I was elected leader of my party by 300,000 votes and I don't | :33:05. | :33:10. | |
know how many people voted for the Prime Minister to be leader of her | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
party. I suspect it was actually none whatsoever. To the 6 million | :33:17. | :33:24. | |
people working in jobs that pay less than the living wage I simply say | :33:25. | :33:27. | |
this, it doesn't have to be like this. Because Labour believes that | :33:28. | :33:34. | |
every job should pay a wage you can live on and every worker should have | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
decent rights at work. To the millions of people who can't afford | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
a home of their own, or have spent years waiting for a council home, | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
this is your chance to vote for the home your family deserves. Because | :33:49. | :33:57. | |
we believe a housing policy should provide homes for everyone and not | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
investment opportunities for a few. To the millions of small businesses, | :34:03. | :34:09. | |
fed up with red tape of quarterly reporting and hikes in business | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
rates and broken promises on national insurance contributions, | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
this is your chance to vote for a government that invests and that | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
supports wealth creators, not just the wealth extractors. The Prime | :34:22. | :34:29. | |
Minister says she has called the election so the government can | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
negotiate Brexit, we had a referendum that established that | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
mandate. Parliament has voted to accept that result. There is no | :34:39. | :34:47. | |
negotiating, but instead of getting negotiating, but instead of getting | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
on with the job, she has pegged herself as the prisoner of the Lib | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
Dems, who have threatened to grind government to a standstill. There | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
are nine of them and they have managed to vote three different ways | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
on Article 50. So it is obviously a very serious threat indeed. The | :35:08. | :35:15. | |
Tories want to use Brexit to turn us into a low-wage tax haven. Labour | :35:16. | :35:23. | |
will use Brexit to invest in every part of this country and to create a | :35:24. | :35:30. | |
high wage, high skill economy, in which everyone shares the rewards. | :35:31. | :35:40. | |
The Prime Minister also says this campaign will be about leadership. | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
So let's have a head-to-head TV debate about the future of our | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
country, why has she rejected that request? Labour... Mr Speaker, | :35:51. | :36:02. | |
Labour offers a better future, we want richer lives for everyone, not | :36:03. | :36:13. | |
the country run for the rich. Order, order. Giving way to the right | :36:14. | :36:23. | |
honourable gentleman. Order! Order. Order! I've known the right | :36:24. | :36:37. | |
honourable gentleman for more than 30 years, you will not take it | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
personally. He has completed his speech and now he would like to | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
raise his point. On a point of order, is that it? LAUGHTER | :36:50. | :37:04. | |
It's very generous of the right honourable gentleman to see to | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
invest me with additional powers but the question of whether it is it as | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
he put it is not a matter for me. And the right honourable gentleman | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
has completed his contribution. Sir Desmond Swiryn. | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
I accept entirely the logic that was laid out by my right honourable | :37:26. | :37:34. | |
friend at her post-statement yesterday in Downing Street, and | :37:35. | :37:36. | |
what I can say is that I reached that conclusion somewhat earlier. | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
However I just did not believe it was possible to deliver. Indeed I | :37:42. | :37:48. | |
found myself discombobulated by a reversal in government policy for | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
the second time in a few weeks. Having told the readers of the | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
Forest Journal in terms that there was no question of there being an | :37:59. | :38:04. | |
early general election, because it was not in the Prime Minister's gift | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
to deliver it, because of the fixed term act. That decision lies with a | :38:10. | :38:16. | |
majority of two thirds of the members of the House of Commons, and | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
as I told them with absolute confidence, turkeys will not vote | :38:21. | :38:28. | |
for Christmas. I congratulate my right honourable friend for having | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
achieved the impossible and secured the fact that today those turkeys | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
will indeed vote for that. The reason why I reached the opinion | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
that I did, that an election was necessary was firstly that, during | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
the passage and the debate on the Article 50 Bill, member after member | :38:48. | :38:55. | |
opposite got up and announced their recantation, that notwithstanding | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
having voted to remain, they were now going to abide by the will of | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
their constituents. Yet at every opportunity they cheered to the | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
rafters those few who spoke out and said they remained with the 48% and | :39:11. | :39:16. | |
believed that so proceeding as events unfolded that 48% would | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
become a majority. They pursued a strategy of desperation. A strategy | :39:23. | :39:30. | |
of how an arm, something might turn up, well, that something was the | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
long promised economic shock or whatever -- of Hang on. That | :39:36. | :39:42. | |
strategy of Hang on requires an essential ingredient, delay, and | :39:43. | :39:50. | |
that was the tactic they clearly pursued and they promised that they | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
would be more. Now, with respect to the other place, the other place is | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
not bound currently in respect of the government's policy by these | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
Salisbury Convention, and my friend for North Norfolk and I were invited | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
to debate in front of a city audience recently the motion that | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
the United Kingdom is leaving the EU. Two peers, highly respected | :40:18. | :40:27. | |
peers, Lord Butler, former Cabinet sector, Lord Leicester, one of our | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
human rights lawyers, they argued the case that we would not leave the | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
European Union because they were in a position to prevent it and would | :40:37. | :40:44. | |
do so. It is essential therefore, I believe, that the policy that the | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
Prime Minister has announced of pursuing a general election and | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
securing a mandate in this House and a mandate to bind the other house in | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
respect of the Salisbury convention is absolutely necessary. I'm | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
confident that she will achieve that majority because I'm confident that | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
she will be backed by the overwhelming majority of this nation | :41:07. | :41:14. | |
who, as she will know, I voted for every other possible candidate for | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
the leadership of the Tory party last year in order to avoid her | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
becoming the leader. I have to tell her that I have become her greatest | :41:25. | :41:31. | |
fan. CHEERING And as my constituents recognise and | :41:32. | :41:39. | |
tell me continually, she is doing magnificently and long may she | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
continue to do so. Mr Angus Robertson. The Prime Minister has | :41:46. | :41:53. | |
said she wants unity and she has said that she wants an end to | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
division and she intends to do that by crushing opposition. With | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
political opponents described as saboteurs, something I invited her | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
earlier to take a distance from but she was not prepared. This is not a | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
vision of or an understanding of mainstream democracy that I share | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
with the Prime Minister. And for months we have heard from her that | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
now is not the time before the public to vote, that no one wants it | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
that it is important to get on with the day job. We have been told that | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
the Prime Minister needs to concentrate all of her time on | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
Brexit and that nothing, nothing, should get in the way, but now, as | :42:37. | :42:44. | |
we have learned in the last 24 hours, all of that was in direct | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
trick. And there are two key reasons why there is going to be a general | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
election -- empty rhetoric. The first is politically expedient, is | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
about the unelectable state of the Labour Party, and that is a reason | :43:00. | :43:05. | |
of political expediency to hold an election. It is about not wanting to | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
repeat the political error that Gordon Brown made, the Prime | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
Minister wants to receive her own electoral mandate and crush | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
political opposition in England. The second reason for holding an early | :43:20. | :43:22. | |
general election is that it has finally dawned on the UK Government | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
that the Brexit negotiations are going to be very difficult and the | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
reality of the hard Brexit that the Prime Minister is pursuing have not | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
fully dawned on the public. As one commentator wrote... If I can have a | :43:37. | :43:43. | |
moment, as one commentator wrote today, the EU is not going to roll | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
over and give the UK free and frictionless access to the single | :43:48. | :43:55. | |
market, and the Prime Minister is getting the vote in before the | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
reality of Brexit hits home. While she thinks she can get away with all | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
of this against the Labour Party in England but she will not come she | :44:06. | :44:07. | |
will not get away with this in Scotland. On the subject of hard | :44:08. | :44:15. | |
Brexit, does he agree that his incumbent on those who are | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
advocating it to set out very clearly what the impact on jobs is | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
going to be for us coming out of the single market and the customs union? | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
That would be an opportunity in a That would be an opportunity in a | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
normal general election campaign where party leaders debate the | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
issues on their record but there has been an interesting development | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
since the debate. I'd notice colleagues looking at their mobile | :44:42. | :44:44. | |
phones, because ITV has confirmed there will be a leaders debate. | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
There are a number of other party leaders in the chamber. I'm looking | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
at the Leader of the Opposition. Izzy intending to take part in the | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
debate? I suspect he probably will -- is he intending for them the | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
leader of the Liberal Democrats and the leader of the Green party. It is | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
unsustainable in the 21st century in the multimedia age to go to the | :45:10. | :45:16. | |
country and not to debate the leaders of the main political | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
parties. The notion that the UK Prime Minister might be empty | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
chaired because she is not prepared to stand up for heart arguments is | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
just not sustainable. Maybe she would wish that the honourable | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
gentleman who is seeking to intervene might take her place | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
instead. As I said yesterday, I hope that the Prime Minister does go | :45:42. | :45:44. | |
head-to-head with the leaders of other parties. It is quite simple, | :45:45. | :45:55. | |
she would floor them all. No, she wouldn't. She would not managed that | :45:56. | :46:01. | |
with Nicola Sturgeon. But I am surprised and I welcome what the | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
honourable gentleman had to say any encouragement. Because I think the | :46:06. | :46:13. | |
public deserves a debate during the election campaign and I think the | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
Prime Minister should have some more confidence in herself. I think she | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
should be prepared to address the country and to debate the idea is | :46:21. | :46:23. | |
that all the political parties across the UK have. But we have | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
already learned of course in Scotland that the Prime Minister is | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
prepared to ignore the mandate and wishes of the Scottish electorate. | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
Of the Scottish Parliament. And the Scottish Government. So why would | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
anyone in Scotland... I need to make some progress, so why would anyone | :46:44. | :46:53. | |
in Scotland vote for such a distant respectful -- disrespectful party | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
and Prime Minister? The Prime Minister promised that she would | :46:58. | :47:00. | |
have a unified approach with all the devolved governments, an agreement, | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
before triggering Brexit, but she didn't. She broke her word. And as | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
we have learned in recent weeks, in connection with the appalling | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
clause, the one thing that the Scottish Tories don't like talking | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
about is Tory policy. But this election will highlight the dangers | :47:23. | :47:25. | |
to Scotland of unfettered Tory Westminster government. We live in | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
one of the most unequal countries in the developed world, but the Tories | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
want to make it even more unfair. Experts say that their policies will | :47:36. | :47:42. | |
cause the largest increase in inequality since Margaret Thatcher. | :47:43. | :47:49. | |
Does he agree with me that if this election is as the Prime Minister | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
says is about a more secure future for this country, if it is an | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
election or such national significance, we should have an | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
urgent change in the law to give Britain's 1.5 million 16-year-old | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
and 17-year-olds a say in deciding their own future on the 8th of June. | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
As someone who gave his maiden speech on in franchising | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
16-year-olds and 17-year-olds, I totally agree. Some young people | :48:19. | :48:25. | |
have been given the vote in some referenda but yet denied it in | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
others, that is wrong. He will be aware that the Supreme Court made it | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
abundantly clear and all the judges decided on a unanimous basis that | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
issues concerning Brexit negotiations should be determined by | :48:41. | :48:42. | |
this House which represent the whole of the UK and that this was not an | :48:43. | :48:49. | |
issue to be decided by any of the devolved institutions. Which bit of | :48:50. | :48:52. | |
that is the right honourable gentleman have a problem with | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
understanding? The thing I have a difficulty understanding is the | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
commitment that the Prime Minister gave, she gave it when she came to | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
Edinburgh, it was on the front page of the House journal of the House | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
Daily Telegraph and she said she wanted a seat UK-wide abroad and | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
agreement. The honourable gentleman might want to rewrite history but | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
the Prime Minister gave an agreement to reach an agreement and she did | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
not do that. Mr Speaker, the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act was | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
supposed to stop political parties abusing their position and putting | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
party before country. Today, the Tories are going to do just that and | :49:29. | :49:34. | |
sadly, the Labour Party is going to vote with the Tories and make life | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
easy for them. We of these benches will not vote with the Tories, but | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
given the arrow keys that the party is going to be voting with the | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
Tories, there will be a general election and boy, we look forward to | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
that. -- given their realities. Because, in Scotland, we... Mr | :49:53. | :50:03. | |
Morris, normally you have a very mild manner, you are a very | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
restrained individual. But you have become overexcited. Calm yourself, | :50:09. | :50:15. | |
take some sort of soothing medicine, it will have a good impact! In | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
Scotland, the general election will be a two horse race, a straight | :50:20. | :50:26. | |
fight between the SNP and the Tories, do I think that mainstream | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
regardless of whether they voted to Leave or Remain will vote for a hard | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
Tory Brexit? I do not believe that will be the case. While the board | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
for more cuts to public services? I do not think so. While they vote for | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
a party that is undermining the mandate given by the voters any | :50:46. | :50:47. | |
Scottish general election? For people in Scotland to determine | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
their own future? No, I do not. We of these benches, will work hard for | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
every vote in every seat in Scotland and Mr Speaker, we look forward to | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
defeating the Tories in this general election. Order, there are at least | :51:02. | :51:10. | |
ten people wanting to speak, we have less than one hour, members can do | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
the arithmetic for themselves and it would be appreciated if each member | :51:16. | :51:18. | |
helps other members with their contributions accordingly. Thank | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
you, Mr Speaker. I welcome the courage that the Prime Minister has | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
shown in taking this question to the public. Who is that they are | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
expecting to lead the country for the next five years? I have to tell | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
you, having followed the last week I can assure the public it will not be | :51:37. | :51:39. | |
the right honourable gentleman for Moray. I think the public will have | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
to think long and hard because Brexit is happening, this is not | :51:44. | :51:50. | |
about... This is very time-limited, everyone has to have the time to | :51:51. | :51:56. | |
speak. This is not about us in here, this is about delivering the future | :51:57. | :51:58. | |
for the British public, future that they deserve, delivering the best | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
possible outcome for this country as we leave the European Union. And I | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
know that when we have that election on the 8th of June, there will be | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
individual members here who may well find themselves in difficulties with | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
their constituency, for whatever reasons they have expressed about | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
the dealership. I am proud to be standing behind a Prime Minister who | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
has made it brutally clear that this is not about making gains in this | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
place, this is about delivering a Brexit that is the good of the | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
European... Well, it is for the good of the European Union as well, I | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
have to say, getting our relationship with the European Union | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
in the future will be hugely important, but this is going to be a | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
question that will be posed in constituencies of the leaders that | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
could be the Prime Minister, that is what they are going to ask the | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
country. Does this country believe that the leader for Islington North | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
could lead this country? I suspect a large number of his colleagues on | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
his own backbenchers would say no, and I would suggest that the | :53:08. | :53:10. | |
businesses in my constituency would equally say no. Does the leader... | :53:11. | :53:20. | |
Sorry, Westmorland and Lonsdale, whose voting record and attendance | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
in this House, along with his colleagues, is generally pretty low, | :53:26. | :53:28. | |
there were too much here today, none to vote on the Budget yesterday, | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
does he really believe that he can lead this country, I suggest no. I | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
would suggest that the British public, when they are looking who to | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
vote for on the 8th of June will look forward with confidence to a | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
Prime Minister with an increased mandate to take us through to the | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
next five years and I am delighted that she is giving this opportunity | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
to the country, to examine our record in Saint old since 2010, 70 | :53:55. | :54:02. | |
3% youth unemployment, a drop. An extra... It is interesting for the | :54:03. | :54:10. | |
third placed Lib Dems in my constituency who I must tell you, I | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
hear nothing from in the House defending St Albans, it is | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
surprising, Mr Speaker that they are more interested in campaigning and | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
less interested in running the country. This party, our government, | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
has taken a strong stance and in St Albans, as I have said, there has | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
been a two thirds reduction in youth unemployment since 2010. 76% | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
increase in young people going into apprenticeships. Those of the | :54:36. | :54:41. | |
records we will put to the public. Brexit is happening, we are going to | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
make the best of it and I believe our Prime Minister will not have to | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
suffer 100 and elected Liberal Democrat in the other place and nine | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
in this place are rarely turn up, trying to target the tail of this | :54:58. | :55:01. | |
Prime Minister. We need to make the future secure... I will finish my | :55:02. | :55:08. | |
remarks. We must make the future secure for our young people and our | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
young families and begin playing in this place is a disservice to the | :55:13. | :55:15. | |
British public who are probably fed up having elections anyway, but let | :55:16. | :55:24. | |
us get on and get a mandate for our Prime Minister. Please, to the | :55:25. | :55:27. | |
honourable lady, the public do not respect the fact that people yell | :55:28. | :55:29. | |
from the backbenches. She can speak up for her own leader in... Her own | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
leader and her own manifesto and her own party and what she believes her | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
own leader for Islington North that he will be the man to take the | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
country through and the next five years. I cannot share her confidence | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
but she always the highest belief in his abilities. I know that this | :55:47. | :55:49. | |
government which has delivered so much already and has so much more to | :55:50. | :55:55. | |
deliver has a resonance with the British public when you look at what | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
is on offer from the other parties that are divided, wrangling, | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
scaremongering and in denial of Brexit. This government will give | :56:04. | :56:06. | |
the best deal for all of our businesses and all of our | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
constituencies. Tim Farron. Appropriate time to be | :56:12. | :56:18. | |
called. I notice that the former Prime Minister, David Cameron, | :56:19. | :56:27. | |
earlier welcoming the Prime minister's decision to call an early | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
election. Given that we are in this mess in one sense as a country | :56:34. | :56:36. | |
because he put party before country calling the referendum when he did, | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
it is hardly surprising that the Prime Minister should follow him and | :56:42. | :56:44. | |
indeed choose to put party before country once again. Let us remember | :56:45. | :56:51. | |
from the moment that she took of this that the Prime Minister has | :56:52. | :56:54. | |
ignored the closeness of the referendum vote, has pursued the | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
hardest form of Brexit, driving division instead of cohesion. She | :57:00. | :57:05. | |
has ignored the British people, British businesses, British public | :57:06. | :57:07. | |
sector and the National Health Service, and now, what is now | :57:08. | :57:12. | |
clearly another act of putting 1's party before 1's country, she has | :57:13. | :57:18. | |
chosen an early election, let us not by this nonsense because that you | :57:19. | :57:21. | |
need a mandate to deliver Brexit, the Labour Party has given her a | :57:22. | :57:24. | |
mandate to deliver Brexit, she is acting upon a narrow majority of the | :57:25. | :57:32. | |
referendum in 2016, not for the moment... Let us all be very clear | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
and honest. She has chosen, she has chosen this election because she | :57:38. | :57:40. | |
looked across the dispatch box and could not resist the temptation of | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
doing the political equivalent of taking candy from a baby and facing | :57:46. | :57:53. | |
a Labour Party in a general election. She expects... She expects | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
a coronation and not a contest, and that is why the Liberal Democrats | :57:58. | :58:00. | |
relish the challenge of a general election. I will give way to my | :58:01. | :58:09. | |
neighbour. I am very grateful for him giving way. Just about that | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
coronation, will he rule out a coalition with the Conservatives? | :58:15. | :58:16. | |
The problem we face in this country is that the Prime Minister is | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
running on expectation. We do not need a coalition with anyone. The | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
Prime Minister... In good time. The Prime Minister will call the general | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
election in order to take advantage of what she thinks is a clear | :58:32. | :58:38. | |
opportunity for a majority of 100 or more. I have accepted the | :58:39. | :58:44. | |
gentleman's intervention. What is the answer? It is very clear that | :58:45. | :58:50. | |
we're not talking about balance, the Prime Minister takes the view that | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
in calling this election, it is an opportunity for her to have a 100 | :58:55. | :58:58. | |
seat majority, an opportunity to drive through not just a hard | :58:59. | :59:06. | |
Brexit, a deeper agenda to slim down the NHS, to... Order! Rather | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
disorderly atmosphere. The right honourable gentleman is undertaking | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
an apprenticeship to become a statesman but he has several models | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
and some years ago. He must calm himself. Mr Farron. To answer the | :59:21. | :59:29. | |
hackles of my friend of many years, the reality is that we are not | :59:30. | :59:34. | |
looking at a balanced parliament, the Prime Minister... I think I have | :59:35. | :59:38. | |
given you your answer. The Prime Minister has clearly caught the | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
selection on the understanding that she can get lots of numbers and give | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
herself a majority to allow her to... And not for the time being, | :59:48. | :59:53. | |
thank you. To allow herself to deliver the hardest form of Brexit | :59:54. | :59:56. | |
to shrink the NHS, to undermine the support for integration and to take | :59:57. | :00:03. | |
us out of the single market. If you want to avoid a hard Brexit, if you | :00:04. | :00:09. | |
want to take Britain in the single market, if you want a Briton that | :00:10. | :00:12. | |
has a decent opposition, a decent opposition, then only the Lib Dems | :00:13. | :00:18. | |
will give you that. Can I just point out? There is only one route, Mr | :00:19. | :00:26. | |
Speaker, the Prime Minister losing this general election and it is the | :00:27. | :00:33. | |
Lib Dems. I am happy to explain why that might be the case, there is not | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
that much time, let me move on, please. Let me explain that the only | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
route through which Theresa May, the Prime Minister, could lose her | :00:46. | :00:53. | |
majority... Unless my friends on the SNP benches are about to launch a | :00:54. | :01:00. | |
aggressive foreign policy, they can only do so much. Not even the Labour | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
Party believes it will gain seats at this general election. The SNP can | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
only possibly gain one more seat than they already have. So the only | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
way to stop a Tory majority is the growth and revival of the Lib Dems. | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
The government has already stated that it will not outline its | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
negotiating stance any further than the dab rhetoric we have already | :01:26. | :01:28. | |
seen. We have said that that is not good enough. If they will not tell | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
us what they are pursuing, they must instead trust the people with their | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
say on the final deal. The Prime Minister has already confirmed that | :01:41. | :01:49. | |
she will not do any TV debates, referring to bash Machiavellian to | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
hide behind the media that supports than face the public any TV debate. | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
I will give way. I think you might have misheard the straightforward | :02:00. | :02:07. | |
question, it is being afraid, do not be afraid, will you rule out a | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
coalition with the Tories, yes or no? The outcome of this general | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
election is up -- uncertain and in the days and weeks to come we will | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
no doubt talk about what will happen... Honourable gentleman | :02:20. | :02:31. | |
below, you as well, you have to be patient, your patience will be | :02:32. | :02:32. | |
rewarded. I don't think he gave a straight | :02:33. | :02:45. | |
answer to that question, so let's try another question. Many of his | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
viewers will be asked about over the next seven weeks and he was asked | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
one question which he refused to give an answer to. Does he think | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
that being gay is a sin? I do not. I do not. I am very proud to have gone | :03:00. | :03:09. | |
through the lobby behind, with the Liberal Democrats equalled gay | :03:10. | :03:19. | |
marriage and equal marriage, -- brought about gay marriage and equal | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
marriage, but there is more to be done. If we campaign for a open and | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
tolerant society, we need to make sure we are not complacent about | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
LGBT rights, anywhere in the world, including what is going on in | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
Chechnya at the moment. Let me say this. I won't. Let's move on and | :03:40. | :03:48. | |
finish. I'm flattered so many people want to know my views, and I will | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
put myself up for a debate with others, even if the Prime Minister | :03:56. | :04:02. | |
doesn't. The reality is, what we had in the referendum last June was a | :04:03. | :04:09. | |
vote to start the process and giving the Prime Minister a mandate to | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
negotiate Brexit but what was not given was a mandate to give the | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
Prime Minister the right to enact any old deal at the end of the | :04:16. | :04:22. | |
process. What the Prime Minister is asking for now is a blank cheque to | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
allow the British people to put up with whatever stitch up she and the | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
Brussels bureaucrats bring together over the next few years, that is not | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
democracy. An election which takes place on the 8th of June will not | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
decide the outcome, it will be about imposing on the British people a | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
deal that absolutely nobody voted for. Yes, the Liberal Democrats | :04:45. | :04:51. | |
welcome this opportunity to show the British people that there is another | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
way, that the values of tolerance and openness and fairness can help | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
build a vibrant and successful community across the UK and beyond, | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
and the government has made it clear that this is not the Britain that | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
they believe in. They have chosen isolation over calibration, meanness | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
over fairness, and I believe in a better Britain and that is why we | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
will support this motion -- over cooperation. Order. On account of | :05:21. | :05:28. | |
the level of interest and given that there are only 37 minutes to go I | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
will impose a three-minute limit on backbench speeches. I can take up | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
less time. It was a great honour to follow the leader of the Liberal | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
Democrats. I would've hoped he would have rolled coming into us in a | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
coalition. -- ruled out. There is no chance that we would want you, sir, | :05:51. | :05:58. | |
in our coalition. Or any government. Today the party politics is in full | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
swing, but really, this is a good day for Parliament. This is another | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
slight step towards Parliamentary democracy rather than dictate by the | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
executive. The Prime Minister has not called a general election, it is | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
this House that will decide whether there will be a general election, | :06:20. | :06:22. | |
and if I thought for one moment that this election had been called for | :06:23. | :06:32. | |
party political reasons to go early to the country, as happened with | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
previous governments, previous governments chose the moment ago for | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
political advantage and it gave great power to the executive. | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
Strange number of circumstances have come together, we have had a change | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
in the Prime Minister and not only a change in the Prime Minister, but | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
the changing all senior ministers. We have moved from a government that | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
was anti-Brexit to pro Brexit, and that is why I will cast my vote | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
today in support of the government motion. It is up to every member in | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
this House to make that decision. I think that proves that the fixed | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
Parliament act is working and I absolutely, if members disagree, | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
they can vote against... Thanks giving way. He said it is Parliament | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
that will decide but the Prime Minister went on television | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
yesterday declaring across the world that they would be a general | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
election. If Parliament does not give her the two thirds, should the | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
Prime Minister resign after such a public humiliation? That is the | :07:42. | :07:48. | |
advantage of the Parliament act. If the House does not agree to a | :07:49. | :07:50. | |
general election it won't happen, and the government will continue in | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
office. Opposition members that don't want a general election will | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
be very strange creatures indeed. But also opposition members that sit | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
on their hands and don't vote will be regarded as important members of | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
Parliament. I hope the gentlemen will make his mind up and cast his | :08:12. | :08:18. | |
vote one way or the other. Isn't that why the fixed term Parliament | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
act can never work because no opposition can sensibly say that | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
they prefer a government they are opposed to to continue in office | :08:29. | :08:30. | |
rather than have a chance to defeating it? Therefore be fixed | :08:31. | :08:37. | |
term Parliament act should go. Very rarely that I disagree with you, but | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
I think it is proved today that it is working. I believe we will have | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
the required majority, but I understand that if nobody objects | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
and you decide the matter on the voices, it in fact is carried and we | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
don't have two actually have two thirds which I think is a strange | :08:59. | :09:08. | |
anomaly but I hope somebody will set -- will shout no and we will | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
actually get it. I would never dream of doing anything other than that. I | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
just think of despite the party politics, this is a great day for | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
Parliament and is a small step forward in Parliamentary democracy. | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
Mr Nigel Dodds. There are three issues I would like to address in | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
the short time available, the first is that this election is happening | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
in the midst of political discussions in Northern Ireland | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
about the formation of an executive which is unfortunate. As far as our | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
party is concerned we respond positively to the request for | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
discussions to continue in Northern Ireland and we have made it very | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
clear along with the STL P and the Ulster Unionist Party we are ready | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
to form an executive in Northern Ireland -- S DLP. We will be looking | :10:00. | :10:10. | |
at health education funding and public services, we believe they are | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
far more important than some of the issues which are said to divide us. | :10:14. | :10:24. | |
We don't need prolonged negotiation. The second thing, in terms of | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
Brexit, Northern Ireland's position is different from other parts of the | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
UK and that has been made clear in the government's paper that it has | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
set out, it has recognised the special circumstances and we believe | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
it is imperative that Northern Ireland's voice is heard very | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
strongly. That is why it is such a strategy that Sinn Fein has walked | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
away from the executive and collapsed the assembly -- such a | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
tragedy for them boycotts this place and then demands a special stages | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
which has been rejected by the Irish Republic, the European Union and | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
even the European Parliament when it set out its negotiating position. | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
They want, and we agree with special arrangement, which recognises | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
special circle sciences of Northern Ireland, so Mr Speaker, it is | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
essential and the election is going to happen -- special circumstances. | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
There's a clear choice between a party which has walked away and | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
abandoned its responsibilities and a party which will enter in Northern | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
Ireland and contributes and raises its voice and stands up for Northern | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
Ireland. The final thing I want to say, on the big issue about going | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
forward in terms of this country, this election will provide clarity | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
and it will provide clarity on the union, that really matters, the | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
union of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and on | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
that issue again the people of Northern Ireland will have a clear | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
choice, they will have a clear choice as to whether or not they | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
will want to rally round and say very firmly that they want Northern | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom, or whether they want to go | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
down the route presented by Sinn Fein which is a Marxist Leninist | :12:11. | :12:17. | |
concept of a republic which has been rejected even by most people who | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
accept their nationalism, but reject what they stand for in terms of | :12:24. | :12:25. | |
their economic outlook and all the rest of it. The only way to support | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
the union is by rallying behind the Democratic Unionist Party on the 8th | :12:32. | :12:40. | |
of June. The Prime Minister presents herself as the straight sort of | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
person, like Tony Blair. She is a former Home Secretary, and she knows | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
full well the value of evidence as it is proved, so firstly, she was | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
initially in favour of leaving the European Union and on this | :12:56. | :13:02. | |
honourable stance even if I disagree with, and then she was in favour of | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
remaining the European Union, is something of a stinking Violet in | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
her support, and now she is keen on leaving. She was opposed to having | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
an early general election, it would be a distraction, she said. When she | :13:16. | :13:24. | |
had important international negotiations to conclude, but now | :13:25. | :13:26. | |
she is determined that a general election we must have. Against the | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
European Union, for the European Union, and then against again, | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
against holding a general election and now determined to hold a general | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
election. The record is about as straight as the legendary European | :13:43. | :13:52. | |
Union banana. The Prime Minister today repeatedly says she wants the | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
early election to produce a larger Tory majority, dusty member agree | :13:57. | :13:59. | |
that the Prime Minister is treating the electorate of the United Kingdom | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
with contempt because she assumes the electorate will result in a | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
larger Tory majority? -- does remember. I have no crystal ball and | :14:13. | :14:19. | |
I know the disarray in the party to my right, and who knows what the | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
outcome will be, but I am suspicious of the Prime Minister's motives and | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
her reasoning. She says a general election would enhance the status of | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
the 27, for example, and I can't see how that might be the case. To turn | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
briefly to what I do think the Prime Minister's motives are, and I think | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
they are pretty clear, they are in fact pretty straight. It is not only | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
about the destruction of the Labour Party as a credible opposition over | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
the next decade, although I'm afraid they are doing an effective | :14:56. | :14:57. | |
demolition job on themselves without her help, and it is not only about | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
raising a challenge to my friends in Scotland, although I think in this | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
case her case is already lost. No, this election is about seeing off | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
not her opponents on this side of the house, but her enemies behind | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
her. As ever with the Tories, desperate disunity papered over when | :15:18. | :15:25. | |
it suits. My party Plaid Cymru welcomes the opportunity that this | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
election presents to the people of Wales and we welcome the opportunity | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
to change our course in the long-term away from Labour's | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
government in Cardiff and decentralised government in London, | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
cutting our own path towards economic regeneration and | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
prosperity, social justice and the proper confidence plays for Wales in | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
the world. -- confident place. The Prime Minister wants a general | :15:49. | :16:06. | |
election there would be less controversy. At every opportunity, | :16:07. | :16:15. | |
she herself or those who spoke for the Prime Minister denied there was | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
going to be a general election. Where was the general election, they | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
were asked, and the answer was clear, 2020. There is no great | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
public demand for a general election. How many members have | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
received in the last few weeks or days letters or e-mails asking for a | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
general election? Hands up. It is absolutely clear there has been no | :16:41. | :16:52. | |
such demand. The reason given by the Prime Minister for a general | :16:53. | :17:00. | |
election, Brexit, it is feeble, a flimsy excuse, and not taken in by | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
anyone. My honourable friend said the Government shouldn't be | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
complacent about a large majority. Hopefully they will not receive one. | :17:09. | :17:18. | |
When you consider the harm done to those in need when this government | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
has had a small majority, imagine what would happen if there was a | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
large Tory majority. A nightmare, absolute nightmare for those who we | :17:29. | :17:35. | |
represent. Millions of people in this country that need the | :17:36. | :17:37. | |
Government to protect them and not harm them and that is not going to | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
come from a Tory government with a small or large majority. I was here | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
during the Tory government of the 1980s and I saw the harm that was | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
done to my constituents and so many others. This motion before us is | :17:55. | :18:03. | |
murky, completely opportunistic, and it reflects badly on the Prime | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
Minister. I will conclude with these words. Many people are cynical about | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
politics in this country and unfortunately that is a trend which | :18:13. | :18:24. | |
has increased. I do say that this motion and general election which is | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
coming, purely for opportunist reasons, will increase the cynical | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
viewing and that is damaging to the Democratic process. I will be voting | :18:35. | :18:43. | |
against the motion today because I think it is totally unnecessary and | :18:44. | :18:50. | |
I say that as somebody who voted Leave on the 23rd and since then has | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
had a grudging respect for the way the Prime Minister has conducted | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
herself since she took over. However, the justification which she | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
has given for having a general election is quite frankly | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
disingenuous. To suggest she needs a mandate to negotiate Brexit is just | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
ridiculous. She was given that mandate on the 24th of June by a | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
majority of the British people. It is up to her now to carry that out. | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
If she wishes to have another election at the end of the process | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
or to have another referendum then so be it but to justify it now is | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
just, as my honourable colleague said, purely opportunistic. | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
Furthermore, she says she needs a larger majority because her business | :19:44. | :19:51. | |
of the House is likely to be disrupted by opposition parties or | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
by the House of Lords. Well, she ought to look back to what happened | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
when the Wilson government was in power train 64 and 66. He had a | :19:59. | :20:08. | |
majority of three. The Callaghan government in the 70s governed for | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
five years without any majority and if she is fearful of what could | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
happen from the House of Lords she should do exactly what Tories have | :20:19. | :20:21. | |
done in the past and flood the place with her own people to ensure she | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
gets her way. There is no justification for arguing that she | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
needs to have a larger majority in order to get business of the House | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
through. Furthermore, the quite frankly arrogant view that the | :20:39. | :20:45. | |
electorate should concentrate purely and simply on one narrow issue is | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
treating the electorate with contempt. I can only speak for my | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
constituents but when they consider the issues they are going to be | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
asking the questions why is every school in my constituency losing out | :21:03. | :21:05. | |
under the new funding formula? Why is the City Council having to make | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
horrendous cuts because the Government have cut the support | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
grant? Why are waiting times increasing at hospitals? There are | :21:17. | :21:23. | |
just not enough staff. Why are more hard-working families having... ? I | :21:24. | :21:30. | |
will. I thank my honourable friend forgiving way. I wanted to point out | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
that in his questioning about why things were happening in his | :21:35. | :21:41. | |
constituency, I wondered if you might address why my children's | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
school in his constituency they are having 32 children in a class. I | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
don't remember that happening under a Labour government. I thank her and | :21:53. | :21:59. | |
she is right. Under a Labour government we had educational | :22:00. | :22:01. | |
programmes like building schools for the future, we had sure start | :22:02. | :22:08. | |
centres, under this government the programme was stopped and secondly | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
sure start centres are being closed left, right and centre. My | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
constituents will ask the questions. Why are more and more hard-working | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
families being forced into the humiliation of using food banks | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
because they do not have enough money at the end of the week to feed | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
and clothe their families? Why our energy consumers paying | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
ever-increasing prices? While the energy utility firms are ripping | :22:38. | :22:47. | |
them off in the name of competition. Why are young people, married and | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
unmarried, unable to acquire proper housing for themselves and very | :22:53. | :22:54. | |
often have to stay with their in-laws. These views will be echoed | :22:55. | :23:01. | |
throughout the country. There is no justification for this election and | :23:02. | :23:12. | |
I will certainly be opposing it. I will be supporting the motion | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
because I think as one of the members opposite said it seems | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
rather bizarre that the opposition should say we want to keep a Tory | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
government in power. It makes no sense. We have to put our case to | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
the British people and see what happens. We have arrived at a | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
position today which I always thought was inevitable, this was | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
bound to happen. I never believed the stuff about no election. There | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
is a dynamic at work which has resulted in this decision being | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
almost inevitable. Given he is going to support the Government, is he | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
then confident we will not have a Tory government returning | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
post-election with two more years? What does he say is going to happen? | :23:58. | :24:05. | |
To do what ever you can to get rid of a Tory government as sinners you | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
can. It might not work but it is up to the British people in an | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
election. It is their choice. The reason it is inevitable position, I | :24:15. | :24:22. | |
want to pay a minor tribute to Mr David Cameron, late of this parish. | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
When the history of this country in the early part of the 20th century | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
-- 21st-century comes to be written, he will have one of the most | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
prominent roles, not a glorious tribute but decisions that he took | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
well over time damage this country immensely. I remember serving on the | :24:43. | :24:49. | |
original EU Referendum Bill, named after the member from Stockton | :24:50. | :25:00. | |
South. I remember one evening the then Prime Minister David Cameron | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
came into the committee room, a six committee room seven or eight, and | :25:05. | :25:12. | |
sat in the public gallery simply to pay obeisance to the heart | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
right-wingers from the Tory party who were on that bill. I have never | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
seen or heard of a Prime Minister facing such ignominy. Of course, he | :25:25. | :25:33. | |
gave them no guarantee of a referendum in or out. He didn't say | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
he was come to renegotiate terms and then put that to them, he was gone | :25:39. | :25:44. | |
to renegotiate and then have an in/ out referendum. When I say he will | :25:45. | :25:50. | |
go down as one of the most damaging prime ministers, he also put in | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
jeopardy the whole future of the UK, not just as a trading nation, our | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
relationship with the EU, but the future of Scotland as part of the | :26:00. | :26:10. | |
UK, and again it was he who granted the referendum in the first place | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
which set the dynamic in play which destroyed the Labour Party in | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
Scotland and gave the SNP the prominent role that they enjoy | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
today. He has also put in jeopardy our relationship with the Republic | :26:25. | :26:31. | |
of Ireland and also, as the honourable gentleman from the DUP | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
said earlier, put at risk the very stability of Northern Ireland as an | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
entity, as part of the UK. All these things add up and the damage done | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
will be with us for decades and the people who will pay the greatest | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
price will be the young people, the next generation and those who come | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
after. It has permanently damaged this country. I will vote for the | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
general election. I don't think it will change anything. I think the | :27:03. | :27:05. | |
essential landscape will remain much the same after the election as it is | :27:06. | :27:12. | |
now and it will all follow from the calamitous decision of last June to | :27:13. | :27:19. | |
leave the EU. I can understand certain political reasons. There is | :27:20. | :27:26. | |
sanctuary and hypocrisy today. Politics is not science or art or | :27:27. | :27:29. | |
religion. People do things for their own advantage and every Prime | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
Minister has always done that. I didn't intend to speak in this | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
debate but in response to a question posed by the honourable member from | :27:38. | :27:44. | |
Walsall North. I have received e-mails from constituents over the | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
last few weeks asking me to encourage the Prime Minister to call | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
a general election and go to the country once again. He seems to be | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
implying that nobody in the country was asking for this but there were | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
members of my constituency who were asking me to do that. When the Prime | :28:02. | :28:08. | |
Minister made the announcement yesterday, initially I was in shock | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
because, like my right honourable friend, the member for new Forest, I | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
was telling people there was no chance of the general election. I | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
wasn't quite as bold as to put it in the local paper but verbally and in | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
e-mails I was telling people I didn't think it would happen. Having | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
listened to the Prime Minister's reasons, I believe it is the right | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
thing for the country. We obtain a new mandate to go into the | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
negotiations to leave the EU and put the Prime Minister and others who | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
will negotiate in the strongest possible position in those | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
negotiations. I am also happy to stand on this government's record of | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
delivering for this country. It is not just about the Brexit | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
negotiations, it is about this government which has delivered | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
growth, one of the best performing economies in the world, record | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
numbers of jobs, great investment in the NHS, and I am proud to go to the | :29:09. | :29:16. | |
country and let us -- and say let us continue delivering what our country | :29:17. | :29:18. | |
needs and putting us in the strongest position. One final point. | :29:19. | :29:27. | |
If the Conservative Party is returned into government with a | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
substantially reduced majority I say to the leader of the Lib Dems will | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
he accept it is the will of the British people that they have | :29:38. | :29:39. | |
returned to the Conservative Party with a clear mandate to press on and | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
take us out of the EU on the Prime Minister has set out and drop this | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
opposition and gameplaying to thwart the democratic will of the British | :29:50. | :29:58. | |
people? As someone who believes that the Prime Minister has presented the | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
case for this election on an entirely false premise I will also | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
be voting against a motion today. I wasn't asking for an election last | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
week or the week before, I was arguing in the context of the talks | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
in Northern Ireland that any move for an election in future wouldn't | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
help the context of those negotiations. My mind has not | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
changed so why should I pretend it has. I will not be goaded into | :30:23. | :30:29. | |
voting differently because of the Prime Minister's actions and | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
stances. She has accused others of playing games in this Parliament. | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
Essentially our argument is that she has no confidence in parliament so | :30:40. | :30:46. | |
she has a bizarre situation where we had a referendum on taking back | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
sovereignty and the Prime Minister announces she has no confidence in | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
parliament. She doesn't trust opposition parties and confers on | :30:53. | :31:01. | |
them powers to block. If members of the Tory benches are concerned about | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
the House of Lords then move to abolish it or have coherent reform | :31:06. | :31:13. | |
but stop using them as props. The Prime Minister is pretending she | :31:14. | :31:16. | |
needs the election now so she has a strong hand in the short term | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
whereas we really know she is after a free hand in the longer term in | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
terms of the wriggle room around periods of adjustment. | :31:27. | :31:35. | |
Does my friend appreciate that the nearest parallel to what is | :31:36. | :31:42. | |
happening now in this campaign for an election is the... Order, order. | :31:43. | :31:53. | |
Please faced the House. You were busy talking. I was being spoken to | :31:54. | :32:05. | |
by an illustrious member of the opposition whips office. The nearest | :32:06. | :32:13. | |
parallel is the election of 1974 when Ted Heath, the then Prime | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
Minister, decided on a very narrow argument that the miners were on | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
strike and it would be about who runs the country. And most general | :32:24. | :32:32. | |
elections are about a lot of things. This one was about a specific thing, | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
and can I say, what happened in effect was that the Labour Party | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
finished up with the largest number of seats and the Queen said to Ted | :32:42. | :32:57. | |
Heath, and the Liberals ran away. I appreciate that intervention and I | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
will also make the point that if we are going to bring in comparisons | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
with that election and 1974, an on fuzzing casualties that election was | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
the Sunningdale agreement, the power-sharing executive that had | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
been formed out of the 1973 executive -- an another casualties. | :33:16. | :33:23. | |
And of course this election has been called without regard to the fact | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
that there are sensitive negotiations going on in Northern | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
Ireland and it is hard to see how this general election won't have an | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
impact on those negotiations, which will cull of parties to some of the | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
issues they are dealing with -- which will colour the parties. The | :33:39. | :33:46. | |
British government will not be in a position to give commitments in the | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
context of those negotiations, so how are we going to get a com brands | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
of agreement in those kind of circumstance? -- comprehensive | :33:56. | :34:03. | |
agreement. I do not take these issues lightly. And I cannot be | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
dismissive of them. I want to make sure that we have the agreement | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
fully protected and that is why I am no saboteur when it comes to | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
anything that has been endorsed by a referendum. Least of all what the | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
Irish people in Dost when they voted for the Good Friday agreement. -- | :34:22. | :34:30. | |
Irish people endorsed. The government are in denial that the | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
process of Brexit has implications for that agreement. I also recognise | :34:34. | :34:39. | |
that the agreement gives us the machinery to answer many questions | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
for the whole island of Ireland in terms of Brexit, and it gives us the | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
material in terms of being able to make a future in a north and south | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
bases, in ways that continue to be funded by the EU, we treat the | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
market as a common market, single market, and we can use the auspices | :35:01. | :35:07. | |
of the Good Friday agreement, but there is no pretence that the | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
election is necessary and no pretence that the Prime Minister is | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
justified in the terms that she has used and we do not buy the pretence | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
that the right honourable member for Belfast is giving yet again | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
regarding Sinn Fein. This is the sort of thing that gets politics a | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
bad name and is leading to the alienation from many of our | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
citizens, because there's only one reason why the Prime Minister wants | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
a general election on the 8th of June and that is she she has a | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
better chance of winning now than she does in the future. It is | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
therefore the most blatant abuse of the democratic procedure for party | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
political advantage. As this campaign progresses it will be | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
seeing is that, and this has nothing to do with the country Bosman | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
interests and everything to do with the management of the Conservative | :35:57. | :36:03. | |
Party -- the country's interest. The Prime Minister suggested she needs | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
to have a majority, but she has not lost any boat on Brexit over the | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
last year with a majority of less than 30 and she... She has not won, | :36:11. | :36:17. | |
rather, said the majority is already there. She says this will give | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
clarity to the Brexit process, but we have been trying now for ten long | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
months to get clarity to the Brexit process and every question we have | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
asked has been met with silence and with a refusal to actually say what | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
Brexit does indeed mean. I don't believe for one minute the Tory | :36:36. | :36:43. | |
manifesto will spell out what the plan is for Britain opposed Brexit | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
so who is kidding who? We will not be any clearer as to what Brexit | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
means that we are right now. The media are reporting that up to 30 | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
sitting Tory MPs face being prosecuted for electoral fraud and | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
that the CPS service will announce whether it intends to press charges | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
very soon. Does my right honourable friend think this might have | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
anything to do with the Prime Minister's change of heart? Yes, it | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
is remarkably suspicious, but my concern is that what the Prime | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
Minister wants to do is silence dissent and disagreement in this | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
House and in this country and therefore her instincts are not | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
democratic, they are authoritarian and that is a great worry for our | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
country. Can I turn to the situation in Scotland. There are two reasons | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
why the people should be given another choice on self-government | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
and the first is because, not because the people lost the | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
referendum don't respect the result but because the people who won the | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
referendum changed the deal afterwards. The UK that people voted | :37:51. | :37:57. | |
to be part of in 2014 will no longer be there in the future, but the | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
second is that despite a compromise position from the Scottish | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
Government that said neither will we challenge the Brexit deal, that was | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
thrown back in our faces, and so there is no option but to offer | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
people in Scotland and opportunity and a choice between having a hard | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
Tory isolationist Britain or taking control into their own hands. This | :38:20. | :38:26. | |
doesn't require a mandate to have a second referendum because the | :38:27. | :38:27. | |
Scottish Government already has that mandate. But this will be a judgment | :38:28. | :38:35. | |
on your refusal to agree to the wishes of the Scottish parliament | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
and I'm glad to ask this in finishing, if the Conservative Party | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
loses the general election in Scotland, will you stop blocking the | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
right of the Scottish people to have a choice? Very unfair. Thank you | :38:48. | :38:59. | |
very much. Northern Ireland is in a brutal state as we all know at the | :39:00. | :39:02. | |
moment and we have no executive and we have no other -- brittle. I | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
wonder if the finest will fully consider what happens to us there. | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
-- if the Prime Minister. Regarding our position in the union, I'm very | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
grateful to this, and I want to get three points across. One is not | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
about this election, which we support, but the public in Northern | :39:22. | :39:28. | |
Ireland are fed up to the teeth with elections and they have had so many | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
and they see no point of another assembly election. If you watched | :39:32. | :39:40. | |
what was going on at Easter and you watched paramilitaries dressed in | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
west Belfast and elsewhere marching, carrying the union, the European | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
Union flag as if it was their banner, Brexit for us is a very | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
different world and we fully support that we need to find the right way | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
forward, but it is going to be used by Sinn Fein to really try and break | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
up the union and we need that support. I ask that in the manifesto | :40:03. | :40:11. | |
that they look at how they deal with Northern Ireland special status and | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
also how you look at that manifesto at making sure that we have a | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
workable government in the future, because we need change and that is | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
what the Ulster union 's have been about, getting back to the central | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
party is running Northern Ireland and making sure that the manifesto | :40:31. | :40:33. | |
looks after our Armed Forces and former servicemen. Legacy is playing | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
its way out but not protecting the people that should be protected for | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
doing their duty. We will support the motion today. Two colleagues | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
that can help each other. Mr Alan Brown. Thank you. As several members | :40:48. | :40:54. | |
have already pointed out, the Prime Minister heads up a party with a | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
current majority that was gained partly by her party cheating in the | :41:00. | :41:06. | |
last general election and yet today she has the brass neck to stand | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
there and give a speech about leadership, so I wanted, what | :41:11. | :41:13. | |
leadership does the Prime Minister show on this? She refused to answer | :41:14. | :41:22. | |
some questions and also questions from Glasgow South and about how | :41:23. | :41:30. | |
some of MPs will be participating in the next election. What has she done | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
within her party to make sure that this spending and cheating does not | :41:35. | :41:44. | |
happen again? Upon the border. Twice the honourable member has accused | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
members of cheating and there is no proof of cheating and he should | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
withdraw the remarks. It is a matter of taste rather than of order but | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
the lady has made her point with force and is on the record. Had the | :41:58. | :42:07. | |
honourable gentleman concluded? In terms of further non-leadership | :42:08. | :42:09. | |
interventions from the Prime Minister, she said there will be no | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
general election and then did a massive U-turn, she could not answer | :42:14. | :42:16. | |
why she changed her mind on the single market and we have had no | :42:17. | :42:19. | |
evidence what the hard Tory Brexit is going to mean. She has | :42:20. | :42:26. | |
consistently ignored the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament, | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
so I ask her, show some real leadership. They will be more | :42:30. | :42:41. | |
turkeys voting for Christmas if they followed the Prime Minister and | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
dance to her tune. The Prime Minister needs 433 MPs to support | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
her today and she has gone on television and told the welfare will | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
be a general election if Parliament backs are full stop but if | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
Parliament doesn't back her, will be Prime Minister resign? That answer | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
could change the views of the Labour membership. I must now put the | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
question, the question is, that there shall be a early Parliamentary | :43:11. | :43:20. | |
general election, as many as there of that opinions say aye. On the | :43:21. | :43:31. | |
contrary say noe. And the contrary say noe. Division. Clear the lobby! | :43:32. | :45:59. | |
The question is that there shall be an early parliamentary general | :46:00. | :46:08. | |
election. As many as are of the opinion, say, "aye". To the | :46:09. | :46:17. | |
contrary, "no". Teller for the ayes. Teller for the noes. | :46:18. | :51:41. | |
The ayes to the right, 532. The noes to the left... Ayes to the right, | :51:42. | :01:39. | |
522, the noes to the left, 13. The ayes have it. On Loch. | :01:40. | :01:51. | |
We now come to motion number three, the programme motion, do we move | :01:52. | :02:01. | |
formerly? The question is as on the order paper, I think the ayes have | :02:02. | :02:10. | |
it. Order. We will now have the orders of the day. Technical and | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
further education bill, consideration of Lords amendments. | :02:15. | :02:22. | |
Thank you. Order. I must thought the House's attention to the fact that | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
financial privilege is engaged by Lords amendment one and I also | :02:28. | :02:34. | |
remind the House that certain of the emotions relating to the Lords | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
amendments will be certified as relating exclusively to England or | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
to England and Wales as set out on deselection paper. If the House | :02:47. | :02:53. | |
divides on any certified motion, a double majority will be required for | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
the motion to be passed. The first Amendment to be taken is Lords | :02:58. | :03:05. | |
amendment one with which it will be convenient to consider the other | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
Lords amendments as on the selection paper. To move to disagree with | :03:10. | :03:18. | |
Lords amendment one, I called the Minister Robert Halfon on. -- Robert | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
Halfon. ... To climb the ladder of | :03:23. | :03:48. | |
opportunity. It left this House after your thoughtful scrutiny and | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
after similar disadvantage in the other Place, London lighted that it | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
returns to consideration here today. -- and I'm delighted. I ask members | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
to support the government on all the memories made to the bill in the | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
other place I accept -- or the amendments made to the bill in the | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
other place apart from number six and number three. I asked the House | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
to disagree to this amendment and will ask the committee to ascribed | :04:15. | :04:22. | |
financial privilege as the reason. By financial year 20 -- by the | :04:23. | :04:31. | |
financial year 2020 it will mean that the parents will be eligible to | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
child benefit as if they were in approved education and training and | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
this is an issue where I have great interest. Apprenticeships provide a | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
level of opportunity and we should seek to remove obstacles to social | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
mobility where ever we can. The young person's first full-time job | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
is a big change for them and for their family. And it marks a move | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
into financial independence that should be celebrated. I know that | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
the adjustment can be challenging, for the young person learning how to | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
manage a starting wage and your outgoings, for parents who may | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
experience a falling outcome from the benefits they previously | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
received for that dependent child. One of the core principles of an | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
apprenticeship is that it is a job and is treated accordingly, in the | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
benefit system, a job which offers high quality training and offers | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
wide opportunities and where 90% of apprentices continue into another | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
job on completion. Most apprentices are paid above the minimum wage and | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
the 2016 apprentice pay survey showed the average wage was ?6 70. I | :05:40. | :05:50. | |
thank you forgiving way. Although what he is saying is correct in what | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
he is saying, taking wage and benefit from family and Owen comes | :05:57. | :06:06. | |
will be a disincentive -- taking child benefit from families will be | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
a disincentive to get into work. Most apprentices get paid over ?6, | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
and as I say most of them, 90% go into jobs or additional education | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
afterwards. The apprenticeship programme already supports low | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
income groups, and the funding system gives targeted support to the | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
participation of care leavers and we are making ?60 million available | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
this year to training providers and to support take up by apprentices | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
from disadvantaged areas. We are committed to making sure that | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
high-quality apprenticeships are as access as possible to people from | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
all backgrounds. And will take forward the main recommendations for | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
people with learning difficulties and our target on participation for | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
black and minority ethnic groups. On the suggestion of a bursary from | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
care leavers, understand that some young people have greater challenges | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
to overcome. That is why we are providing ?1000 to training | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
providers when they take on care leavers who are under-25s. We will | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
also pay 100% of the cost of training, to small employers who | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
employ care leavers, and there is scope for apprenticeships to benefit | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
social mobility even more and we are working across government to use the | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
apprenticeship programme to extend opportunities. I'm grateful to law | :07:30. | :07:36. | |
story for tabling amendments six, this introduces a new clause into | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
the Bill which will require Ofsted to take into account the quality of | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
the careers office when conducting standard inspections of further | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
education colleges and I welcome the work that Ofsted has already done to | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
sharpen its approach. Matters relating to career provision | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
featuring all of the judgments made by stead when inspecting Effie and | :07:59. | :08:05. | |
skills providers. Destination data published in 16-18 performance | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
tables is also becoming an established part of college | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
accountability. These are important steps and I want to pay tribute to | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
the good work that has already been going on throughout the further | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
education sector to repair students -- prepare students for the | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
workplace. The annual report from Ofsted last year it cites the | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
excellent work of Derby college which has set up in Poyet academies | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
where learners benefit throughout their course from a range of | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
activities -- employer academies. Masterclasses and enterprise | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
activities. However, in the same report Ofsted notes that the quality | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
of information and advice and guidance in further education | :08:49. | :08:50. | |
providers can be variable and does not always meet the range of student | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
needs. And that is why I want to use this opportunity to go through this | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
further. The amendment will signal our determination to make sure that | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
every further education student has access to good quality, dedicated | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
careers advice, something I know that this House supports, and that | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
is vital if we are to tackle the skills gap and make sure that we | :09:14. | :09:21. | |
have opportunities for everyone. We propose drafting amendments to make | :09:22. | :09:23. | |
sure it achieves the intended effect. The amendment makes it clear | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
that Ofsted must comment on the quality of the college 's career | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
provision in the inspection report. And I urge honourable members to | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
accept this amendment. Further education colleges are engines of | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
social mobility and this is our chance to make sure that students | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
from all backgrounds can access the support they need to get on that | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
ladder of opportunity and benefit from the best skills and education | :09:50. | :09:57. | |
training. I now turn to the amendments the government asked the | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
House to accept without any further amends. The government supports | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
amendment two which requires schools to give education and training | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
providers the opportunity to talk directly to pupils about approved | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
technical education qualifications and apprenticeships that they offer. | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
I would like to place on record my significant gratitude to Lord Baker | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
for tabling the amendment and for his unstinting support for the | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
government's technical education reforms. As I've explained, | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
high-quality careers advice is the first rung on the ladder of | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
opportunity. And will play a key part in realising our ambition of | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
high-quality skills education and training. This law is amendment | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
strengthens the bill by making sure that young people here more about | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
the merits of technical education and the recognition that they are | :10:51. | :10:58. | |
worthy career paths and I hope that never again when I go around the | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
country and visit apprentices and colleges will I meet apprentices and | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
organisations who are refused access to the schools that they were taught | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
in themselves, to talk about apprenticeships. I welcome the | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
proposal that the minister is putting forward will stop we have | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
lots of evidence that schools are not allowing further education | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
colleges and apprenticeship providers access to young students | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
to see what the options are post-16 and that is because of the bums on | :11:32. | :11:38. | |
seats funding regime which exists in schools for instance for post-16 | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
studies. How are we going to get round the deep-seated culture which | :11:44. | :11:46. | |
exists in schools which actually precludes careers advisers and other | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
providers from getting into schools to provide that independent and | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
partial won impartial advice? -- and impartial advice? You speak a lot of | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
sense on this issue, and every time I meet an apprentice in any part of | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
the country, I ask a digital score encourage you to do the | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
apprenticeship? -- I ask, did your score encourage you for them nine | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
times out of ten there wasn't any encouragement. This amendment, I | :12:19. | :12:27. | |
believe, will make a huge difference because technical bodies and | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
apprenticeships will be able to go into the school and their published | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
policy guidance on this, but I agree with you, it's a huge part of this, | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
a cultural change. This is why I talk about the parity of esteem, the | :12:45. | :12:53. | |
word used, until we have parity of esteem between skills and technical | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
education and between going to university which is also a wonderful | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
thing to do, then we won't achieve the cultural change that you talk | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
about. There is a problem with that, training providers themselves going | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
into schools have a vested interest, as much as the schools themselves in | :13:15. | :13:22. | |
terms of securing those students, so is it not true that we need a more | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
robust advice and guidance process which does not include the vested | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
interests of anybody in particular. We are looking at careers guidance | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
in the long-term, how you can gear careers guidance and make it more | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
skills focused for top the enterprise company, getting people | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
to do work experience, the money we are investing in those things, that | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
will help, but there are no easy answers. There are some great | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
private providers who would love to go into schools and there are a | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
great number of further education colleges that would love to go into | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
schools but this is an important step forward to change the culture | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
and also make sure that pupils have the access to learn about | :14:07. | :14:08. | |
apprenticeships and technical education and skills that they need. | :14:09. | :14:18. | |
Amendment three introduced a new clause in the bill, specifically | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
providing full regulations to be made about the delivery of | :14:22. | :14:29. | |
documents, about an insolvent registry and how that is kept by the | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
public, and essentially because allows for the proper management of | :14:33. | :14:39. | |
the paperwork by an further education body and the government | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
was able to accept amendment four put forward by the noble Lords and | :14:44. | :14:46. | |
the other place to defeat the words -- delete the words if possible. It | :14:47. | :14:54. | |
was intended to offer reassurance to creditors and the education | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
administrator that the education administration would not continue | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
indefinitely while we waited for the education administrator to achieve | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
the impossible. Instead it cause concern here and in the other place | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
that student protection is some way lessened the bar but that was not | :15:12. | :15:19. | |
our intention. -- is some way lessened, but that was not our | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
intention for them we have tried to address these concerns. Amendment | :15:23. | :15:31. | |
five tried to fully apply the company directors disqualification | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
act, to further education bodies in England and Wales. The new version | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
of clause 40 formerly clause 37 still allows the court to disqualify | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
any governors who find it liable of wrongdoing from being governors and | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
also from being company directors in any part of the UK. It fully | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
prevents disqualify individuals from being able to, in a different way, | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
repeat mistakes they have made potentially at the expense of | :16:02. | :16:03. | |
another further education institution. We have amended this | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
clause to close a potential loophole in the Bill and more fully protect | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
learners at institutions from the potential actions of any governor | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
who acts recklessly. The existing regime is effective as a finely | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
balanced a tyrant, for company directors, it is rare that directors | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
find liable and its existence and insolvency legislation does not | :16:29. | :16:30. | |
inhibit people from choosing to become company directors, but helps | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
prevent poor financial management. The presence causes company | :16:36. | :16:42. | |
directors to reflect carefully on their financial decisions and the | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
potential consequences of acting wrongfully in relation to predators. | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
We want to have the same deterrent effect for college governors, | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
governors might not appreciate the full consequence if they are still | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
able to act as company directors and can set up a company to run a | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
college. They might be prepared to operate with a greater degree of | :17:02. | :17:02. | |
risk. The amendment also ensures that | :17:03. | :17:11. | |
governors of FC bodies are on par with governments of academies to | :17:12. | :17:21. | |
whom the CDDA also applies. Another amendment adds an additional clause | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
as far as it relates to section 462 of the insolvency act, the parts of | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
the bill to extend to all parts of the UK. This does not change the | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
application of FC and insolvency regime to bodies in England and | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
Wales, it ensures cooperation if necessary in the courts of different | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
parts of the UK in matters of insolvency of FC bodies. -- F E. The | :17:49. | :18:01. | |
bill allows the Institute of apprenticeships to share data with | :18:02. | :18:13. | |
Ofsted, of course -- Ofqual and other institutions. This provision | :18:14. | :18:16. | |
is necessary because the bodies with which the industry will co-operate | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
are expected to change over time. The amendments ensure the Institute | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
can function effectively in future. I turned to amendment 11 to 18. They | :18:29. | :18:37. | |
were prompted by discussions in this House. It was clear we shared a | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
common concern to ensure that care leavers receive appropriate help and | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
support should their college become insolvent. Members opposite | :18:47. | :18:53. | |
including the Shadow Minister were very clear that care leavers are | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
particularly vulnerable and I agree. That is why I undertook to reflect | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
on how we might best support such individuals. I am pleased we could | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
bring forward these amendments to schedules three and four which will | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
require the administrator to send a copy of their proposals to the | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
Director of children's services at the relevant local authority and | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
this will ensure that the director of children's services is not | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
formally be college insolvency and can take action to provide support | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
for any care leavers affected by the proposals. I ask honourable members | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
to support the Government on these amendments. The question is this | :19:34. | :19:41. | |
House disagrees with the Lord's in their amendment one. Gordon Marsden. | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
I am grateful to the Minister for his considered exposition of the | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
Government's position, particularly in respect of the amendments with | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
which we are not going to be in dispute this afternoon. I shall say | :20:00. | :20:07. | |
something particularly about amendment two when I came to | :20:08. | :20:16. | |
amendment on. I want to put on the record that we welcome the change | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
the Government is making particularly in the technical parts | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
of the bill. The devil is in the detail of these things and they're | :20:25. | :20:27. | |
not always right first time around and this time I am happy the | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
Government has reflected on that and I take on board what the honourable | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
gentleman said in respect of care leavers and local authorities. Can I | :20:40. | :20:47. | |
say that I think the recent discussions in the House on the | :20:48. | :21:00. | |
children's social acts on which my honourable friend played a positive | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
and constructive part, have been a useful focus to bring forward the | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
amendments he has put forward today. I am grateful for that. I am also | :21:11. | :21:17. | |
grateful for the widening out of the sharing of information on schedule | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
on. Hopefully we can fish some of the letters out of the | :21:23. | :21:37. | |
soup and make them work together a little easier than they would have | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
done otherwise. I want to turn now to amendment number one. He says it | :21:43. | :21:51. | |
could be regarded as an issue of financial privilege and he also says | :21:52. | :21:58. | |
he has great interest in these issues in terms of financial support | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
and the rest of it and I accept that and I hope the honourable gentleman | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
will understand I have never at any stage in any other committees we sat | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
on, I have never in any shape or form as far as I am aware disavowed | :22:14. | :22:21. | |
his good intentions and indeed his commitment to these issues of | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
equality but of course warm words of themselves to not necessarily carry | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
through the projects that we might all want to see and when he says | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
about most apprenticeships having benefits at the moment then of | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
course one has to ask about what the fate is for those people who do not | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
have those benefits and when he says about it being ?200 million | :22:47. | :22:55. | |
proposed, since we are already committing ?60 million as he said to | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
training providers, I am not sure it is a very strong powerful argument. | :22:59. | :23:05. | |
I will give way in a little while as I want to make progress on the main | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
issue and then I will give way. I am very proud of the fact that the | :23:10. | :23:17. | |
noble Lords considered this matter, speaking in support of amendment | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
number one, in considerable detail and in doing so revealed how much | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
further the Government needed to go in this area and in my view it it | :23:25. | :23:33. | |
still needs to go further. The Times education supplement in February | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
published a chart which spelt out the current gap in support between | :23:38. | :23:45. | |
student and apprenticeships no access to learning grants, no access | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
for their families to Universal Credit or council tax credit and | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
most relevant in terms of amendment were on, no access to child benefit. | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
These amendments would enable families eligible for child benefit | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
to receive it for children aged under 20 undertaking | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
apprenticeships. We understand on our side of the House and I'm sure | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
they do on the other that it is not simply the benefit itself, it is the | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
doors that it opens to other benefits which is a key element in | :24:19. | :24:25. | |
the question. I will give way. I listened to his argument carefully | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
which seems to involve a spending commitment of ?200 million. How will | :24:31. | :24:38. | |
he pay for it? We do not recognise the figure of ?200 million in the | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
first instance and secondly the point I have already made is that | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
the Government is already committing ?60 million to training providers so | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
why he is raising the issue of 200 million which would be aggregated | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
over time, I do not know. I will not give way again because I want to | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
make progress. The amendment calls for the Secretary of State to use | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
amendments to make provisions to assure apprenticeships are regarded | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
as approved training. The apprenticeship programme has seen | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
the apprentice levy this month while setting the target of a printer | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
ships by 2020. Many commentators have continued to raise real | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
questions about the potential quality of new apprenticeships. It | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
is really important that in reducing the growing skills gap in this | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
country, apprentices are not given a raw deal. Lord Watson spelt it out | :25:36. | :25:42. | |
vividly in the House of Lords when he said why should families suffer | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
as we seek to train young people desperately needed to fill the | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
skills gap in the economy? We simply ask that question. I am well aware | :25:54. | :26:00. | |
as we have discussed this in committee in this place and the | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
other, that apprenticeships are not currently classed as approved | :26:05. | :26:06. | |
educational training by the Department for Work and Pensions. | :26:07. | :26:13. | |
That is one of the reasons why we have raised this issue so many times | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
and the honourable gentleman needs to reflect, it seems to me on what | :26:21. | :26:27. | |
the situation is of apprentices who live with parents whose families | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
could lose out by more than ?1000 per year through not being able to | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
access child benefit, and under Universal Credit could lose more | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
than ?3200 per year. If the Government wants to get back target | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
it cannot be in anyone's interest for to be close to young people keen | :26:48. | :26:57. | |
to embark on an apprenticeship. The predecessor government was very fond | :26:58. | :27:07. | |
of the concept of nudge to achieve results but people can be nudged | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
away from things as well as towards them and in some circumstances | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
parents may prevent young people taking up apprenticeships because of | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
their economic consequences to the family which could be considerable. | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
Lawrence in their debate on the 27th of every made this point. Baroness | :27:26. | :27:33. | |
garden said only 10% of apprenticeships taken up by families | :27:34. | :27:40. | |
on free school meals. The loss of child benefit was a significant | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
penalty. Baroness wolf spoke strongly on this. She said, echoing | :27:44. | :27:52. | |
what the minister said, that there needs to be genuine parity if the | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
Government wants to fulfil a holistic vision. As I have said, the | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
list of exclusions printed in the Times education. Element justify | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
their anger and disappointment that the union of students and | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
apprenticeship organisations feel that they are being treated like | :28:10. | :28:16. | |
second-class citizens. Research has shown, and I accept what the | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
minister said that some apprentices are being paid on both -- above | :28:21. | :28:27. | |
minimum wage but some also earn as little as ?3.50 per hour. He has | :28:28. | :28:36. | |
been generous with his interventions. Talking about | :28:37. | :28:43. | |
financial matters, he said he did not recognise this figure of 200 | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
million. How much would his policy cost? Those are issues which would | :28:47. | :28:55. | |
be taken forward over a five-year period and the ?200 million figure | :28:56. | :28:57. | |
that the honourable gentleman from the front bench quoted earlier as | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
not being recognised and I don't intend to engage with it further as | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
there has been no further detail given on that point. Now, I am sorry | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
I will not give way again. He has had two shouts. I'm going to | :29:14. | :29:25. | |
continue so he can stop shouting. This will have a negative effect on | :29:26. | :29:37. | |
family income. The apprentice minimum wage is barely over ?3 per | :29:38. | :29:40. | |
hour. The National Society for apprenticeships ton apprentices said | :29:41. | :29:53. | |
it is inconsistent that apprentices are excluded ton if apprenticeships | :29:54. | :30:04. | |
are to be seen as a top tier option then the benefits should be top tier | :30:05. | :30:13. | |
as well. University students receive assistance from a range of sources | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
from accessing finance to discounted rates on council tax and apprentices | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
currently do not receive many of those benefits and the Lord's agree | :30:23. | :30:29. | |
that those systems should be changed. He mentioned that some | :30:30. | :30:36. | |
apprentices were paid more than the apprentice minimum wage. Is he aware | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
that 82% of apprentices are paid at or above the appropriate national | :30:43. | :30:51. | |
minimum or living wage? Those are figures from his department and I | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
will not dispute them on this particular occasion but what we are | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
trying to do is set in legislation, legislation that will be valid for | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
five, ten or 15 years and it seems far more appropriate to me to have a | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
principle under which everybody has equal access rather than trading | :31:10. | :31:20. | |
figures all day on how many apprentices are not in that | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
position, and I do not believe that we should go down that route. | :31:26. | :31:32. | |
The NUS Vice President for further education made the point again that | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
if apprentices, friendships are going to be the silver bullet to | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
create the high skilled economy for the future, the government has got | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
to go further and genuinely support apprentices to succeed. In support | :31:46. | :31:53. | |
of this amendment, the learning and work Institute has said there are | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
current participation penalties for learning and disadvantaged young | :31:58. | :31:59. | |
people who take an apprenticeship compared to an academic pathway can | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
this -- and this amendment would help to treating apprentices in | :32:05. | :32:11. | |
support of the benefit system, and the government's decision to exclude | :32:12. | :32:18. | |
apprenticeships will serve as a deterrent against people especially | :32:19. | :32:20. | |
those from disadvantaged backgrounds. But together and | :32:21. | :32:26. | |
without any change to the category apprentices are placed in by the DWP | :32:27. | :32:34. | |
and the FE has got to accept that, the government are providing a | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
severe financial disincentive for young people to enter into an | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
apprenticeship as opposed to other routes of education. And that is | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
what the National Society of apprenticeships have said. In the | :32:46. | :32:54. | |
other place the honourable gentleman's colleague said there | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
would be discussions about this issue with colleagues in the | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
Department for Work and Pensions, but they didn't happen. The Minister | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
has told me on previous occasions that this was something that needed | :33:09. | :33:11. | |
to be addressed and discussed with other departments. But it hasn't | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
happened. This is a government which has long given us rhetoric but is | :33:16. | :33:22. | |
short on delivery and a dish on people who are suffering. And the | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
government is now blocking a modest proposal from the House of Lords to | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
begin to remedy their inability to do joined up government -- and it is | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
young people who are suffering. I will give way. He will know and I | :33:36. | :33:45. | |
have mentioned just before that we are doing a social mobility review | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
looking at a range of issues from benefits to incentives to providers | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
and employers in terms of getting more disadvantaged apprentices from | :33:56. | :34:03. | |
disadvantaged backgrounds and say we are not doing this is entirely wrong | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
because there is a lot of work going into this areas. I'm grateful for | :34:07. | :34:14. | |
that. And the broader perspective of social mobility and the rest of it | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
is a perfectly reasonable way of going forward in this matter but I | :34:20. | :34:26. | |
think to be honest and especially at a time like today where we are going | :34:27. | :34:32. | |
to be moving shortly into a general election, I think most people would | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
be interested in some movement, rather than promising jam in the | :34:37. | :34:43. | |
future from the social mobility studies that are going on and there | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
are other areas which I will talk about, where, I'm afraid, the | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
government has moved at a reasonably glacial pace and that is why I'm not | :34:52. | :35:01. | |
impressed by his argument although I appreciate his commitment to try to | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
do something. I want to speak in support of the second part of the | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
amendment which talks about opening benefits to care leavers by opening | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
access to a bursary traditionally only applicable to university | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
students. And people in local authority care who move into higher | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
education can apply for a one off bursary of ?2000 from a local | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
authority and this amendment would make sure that care leavers who take | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
up apprenticeships would be able to access that financial support as | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
well. Can I remind the Minister of what the Children's Society has | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
said, that every year around and never thousand young people aged 16 | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
or over leave the care of their local authority and begin the | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
difficult transition out of care and into adult had which he recognised | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
in my honourable friend, the member for | :35:54. | :36:01. | |
South Shields, tabled an amendment to provide for such a local offer to | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
care leavers. But this government has a golden opportunity to follow | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
up on this, by focusing on support where the DWP could provide this | :36:11. | :36:18. | |
process and I am at a loss to understand why the government is | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
ignoring this process. Or this possibility. They could make | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
provision from the apprenticeship levy for local authorities to | :36:28. | :36:29. | |
administer a ?2000 grant for care leavers. Often when care leavers | :36:30. | :36:36. | |
move into independent living they begin to manage their own budget | :36:37. | :36:39. | |
fully for the first time and this move can take place earlier than | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
others in their playgroup. Remember, a care leavers could be earning, | :36:45. | :36:51. | |
could be earning, sometimes often is, as little as ?3 40 an hour | :36:52. | :36:57. | |
before being able to transition to a higher wage in the second year. And | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
evidence from services and research has revealed how challenging care | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
leavers can find managing that budget because of the lack of | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
financial support they receive and the lack of financial education. As | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
result young carers are falling frequently into debt and financial | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
difficulty. The Minister really does need to put himself in their shoes. | :37:21. | :37:27. | |
His honourable friend could tell us all from his own family perspective | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
how vulnerable young people can be who come from disturbed and | :37:33. | :37:38. | |
difficult family backgrounds. The question remains, why aren't the | :37:39. | :37:44. | |
government prepared to retain this amendment to the bill? It is all | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
very well having fine words, but you may know the old proverb, fine words | :37:49. | :37:57. | |
but no parsnips. What are the bureaucratic item is doing nothing | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
to support hard-working young people and their families -- bureaucratic | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
argument. To help them fulfil their hopes of better times via an | :38:07. | :38:09. | |
apprenticeship. We talk about parity of esteem between students and | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
apprentices and some of these young people have struggled through | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
circumstances to have any strong sense of esteem so why haven't the | :38:19. | :38:25. | |
government moved on this? Why have the consultations with DWP not taken | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
place? Was the minister nobbled on this by some of the number ten | :38:31. | :38:38. | |
trustees? The way we have been led down the path to GCSE resets. If the | :38:39. | :38:45. | |
government does not retain this amendment, people will know that | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
their rhetoric on this matter has been somewhat hollow and apprentices | :38:51. | :38:53. | |
and their families will suffer. I want now to move to amendments | :38:54. | :39:04. | |
number two and six, and if I can join with the Minister in supporting | :39:05. | :39:13. | |
the moment two which he referred to and which I will refer to as well. | :39:14. | :39:21. | |
But I also want to talk about amendment six which was carried... | :39:22. | :39:29. | |
Amendment two, sorry. Which was carried in the Lords and I also want | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
to talk about amendment six. The lack of parity of esteem for | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
apprentices can start at an early age and as my honourable friend has | :39:40. | :39:45. | |
illustrated in the constructive exchange we had with the Minister, | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
the rhetoric on careers advice does not match the painful reality which | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
faces many younger people. Careers advice after 2010 over the last | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
parliament was decimated and was certainly decimated at local level. | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
And young people who want to take a vocational and apprenticeship route | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
are in danger of being short-changed again over their future careers | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
advice. The picture incidentally of supporting schools so far, despite | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
the work of the careers and enterprise company, which is still | :40:24. | :40:30. | |
in its infancy, remains poor. Both Koreas England, the trade body for | :40:31. | :40:37. | |
careers Gueye said violence and the careers development Institute have | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
confirmed to me recently that in their view -- trade body for careers | :40:41. | :40:48. | |
guidance Institute. Their view is that only a third of schools are | :40:49. | :40:56. | |
able adequately to deliver careers advice and the shortage of careers | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
advisers and the fact that those who remain are earning far less than | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
they used to do a that adds up to a very difficult position. That is one | :41:07. | :41:13. | |
of the reasons why last year in November the co-chairs of the | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
educational schools economy, said that the government had been | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
complacent over careers advice and they said the lack of action to | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
address this was not acceptable and it smacks of complacency. I know the | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
Minister challenges that considerably and I know again that | :41:34. | :41:41. | |
he has an on-board... He has put on record that the government is | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
working to a thorough careers strategy in that respect, but we | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
have got to deal to date with what the situation is today, not with | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
what it might be under a strategy of whatever government is going to be | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
around at the end of the year. The industry apprenticeship Council | :41:59. | :42:05. | |
showed 42% of respondents found out about apprenticeships from schools | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
and colleges and that using 1's own initiative remained the most common | :42:10. | :42:12. | |
way for young person to discover those apprenticeships. It also said | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
that there needed to be changing careers information advice and | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
guidance because of the proportion of respondents saying it had been | :42:21. | :42:30. | |
very poor. That is why the House of Lords has produced these two quite | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
detailed and comprehensive amendments because those overall | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
issues are not being addressed. To promote apprenticeships in schools, | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
strong careers guidance is critical, and if we are to make a six S of the | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
Institute it is crucial that young people are alerted early enough on | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
their school life to the attraction of technical roads and that is one | :42:55. | :43:01. | |
of the things that the amendment number two on the other house, which | :43:02. | :43:07. | |
we supported, makes very clear. If the minister doesn't think that the | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
Lords amendment on careers advice is necessary, maybe he would like to | :43:12. | :43:14. | |
explain just how and when the government is going to get a grip on | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
the existing fractured landscape of careers advice which is revealed by | :43:20. | :43:27. | |
his own department. Now last month, and it wasn't bedtime reading, so | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
I'm not surprised if members have not read it, but last month the | :43:31. | :43:37. | |
Department for Education produced a report, economic evaluation of the | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
careers service and this report was produced by London economics and | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
originally commissioned by the former Department for Business, | :43:47. | :43:47. | |
Innovation and Skills to undertake an evaluation of the impact of the | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
National careers service. The service has changed considerably in | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
the five years since it was introduced by the Minister's | :43:58. | :43:59. | |
predecessor, the member for South Holland. That started out | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
essentially and I have the benefit of discussions with his predecessor, | :44:05. | :44:10. | |
and he was very clear at that time that the National careers service | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
was principally going to be for the over 24s and that process has | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
changed. I'm not necessarily criticising that fact, but it has | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
certainly migrated in a fashion which was not planned, and if you | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
look at the website for the National careers service it talks about | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
anyone being aged over 13 or over having access to the date C -- the | :44:35. | :44:44. | |
data. But the problem with this, only 15-22% of the customers, and | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
I'm taking these figures from the report the government have | :44:49. | :44:50. | |
commission, were referred by Jobcentre plus, and the remainder | :44:51. | :44:57. | |
were self referring. Does not in that speak volumes for the lack of | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
joined up government on this matter between the Department for Education | :45:04. | :45:06. | |
and the Department for Work and Pensions? I will. In some respects | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
you are being generous to the government because I think the | :45:13. | :45:20. | |
careers advice has been laid waste by the government policy since 2010. | :45:21. | :45:27. | |
We need to get back to a point where youngsters are having available to | :45:28. | :45:29. | |
them independent and impartial advice and guidance on their future | :45:30. | :45:36. | |
career, without that independence and impartiality, we could get back | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
to the point of vested interests giving advice to young people and I | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
remember Malcolm Wicks Ferring to this in the 90s when he said much | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
advice given to people was akin to pensions mis-selling -- Malcolm | :45:51. | :45:52. | |
Wicks referring. Those are the things that we need to | :45:53. | :46:10. | |
think very hard about indeed. The national careers service has | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
migrated in some substantial fashion and that might not in itself be a | :46:16. | :46:23. | |
bad thing but what I would like to know is what is the connectivity | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
between the national careers service and the careers and enterprise | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
company if that area of coverage is going to start as early as 13? I | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
would like to know what the connectivity is in that process. And | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
of course the very disappointing fact from the impact report said | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
that the research is could not identify a positive impact of the | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
national careers service on employment or benefit dependency | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
outcomes, arguably their main purpose. This is another example why | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
it has been essential for the Government to act on the careers | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
strategy and why their failure so far to do so has made these | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
amendments so important. With the expansion of apprenticeship and | :47:10. | :47:15. | |
introduction of chemical education it is even more important students | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
and apprentices have all the information they need for and | :47:20. | :47:32. | |
informed decision. I warmly welcome amendment to Lord Baker's amendment | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
and cross-party support which would ensure schools must give advice on | :47:38. | :47:44. | |
apprenticeships. It matters because knowledge in general is power and | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
unbiased knowledge is very important indeed. It is also why my honourable | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
friend the member for Scunthorpe introduced a ten minute rule Bill | :47:55. | :48:01. | |
which would require schools to give access to pupils and representatives | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
from post 16 education it institutions to give guidance. This | :48:08. | :48:14. | |
is also why an amendment six is important. I'm encouraged by the | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
fact that the new Ofsted chief inspector is sympathetic to offset | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
making a stronger case to ensure apprenticeships rate higher in | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
information given in schools. The Lords have pointed out this will | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
need more resources for Ofsted. As my noble friend pointed out. If we | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
do not get this integration between the careers and enterprise company | :48:43. | :48:45. | |
and the national careers service, what we ask Ofsted to do will not | :48:46. | :48:51. | |
work. What is the Minister's response to these arguments? Why are | :48:52. | :48:58. | |
the national careers service and the careers and enterprise company | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
apparently going on different lines? If he doesn't want to accept | :49:03. | :49:09. | |
amendments it is, what guarantees can you get to this House or the | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
noble Lords that they will get the work that they need? | :49:14. | :49:24. | |
I'd like to speak very briefly with a comment on amendment six. What is | :49:25. | :49:40. | |
the Government aim achieving? I want to give an impression on what noble | :49:41. | :49:47. | |
Lord story sought to achieve by amendment six. We have acknowledged | :49:48. | :49:53. | |
chewing the course of babes so far that careers advice is variable and | :49:54. | :50:06. | |
-- course of debates. Monitoring advice would help to see how good or | :50:07. | :50:13. | |
bad it is. At committee stage in the Lords, Lord Nash described careers | :50:14. | :50:20. | |
advice as always pretty poorer. And a 2013 Ofsted report established | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
that three quarters of schools did not abide effective advice or as the | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
honourable member of North Shields pointed out, impartial advice. | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
Guidance given to schools was not sufficiently explicit and employers | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
in many places were not engaging and the national careers service was not | :50:42. | :50:47. | |
effectively promoted. It was a key conclusion in the Ofsted report that | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
school advice should be assessed when taking into account general | :50:52. | :51:02. | |
leadership in the case of FE. I think the Minister accepts all that | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
and I know he has produced a variation or a difference from the | :51:07. | :51:14. | |
initial amendment for the Lords. I would like to satisfy me and the | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
House in general that it actually complies with what the Lords | :51:18. | :51:20. | |
intended to achieve through amendments in the first place. If I | :51:21. | :51:35. | |
can give leave to close this debate. I thank the honourable gentleman for | :51:36. | :51:46. | |
his ton I understand he is stepping down so it as being... I know he is | :51:47. | :51:53. | |
an experienced member of the House and I wish him every good wish in | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
the future for that. Just to answer his question, what we are doing is | :52:00. | :52:07. | |
accepting in essence the amendment that was suggested by Lord story but | :52:08. | :52:17. | |
we have just made it tighter in terms of legal... Ofsted will be | :52:18. | :52:29. | |
able to comment on careers in their reports. So, tightening it for legal | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
reasons and making it slightly stronger but we accept the amendment | :52:35. | :52:41. | |
and the principle of the amendment. I have set out earlier the | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
Government was my position on the majority of these amendments which | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
serve to strengthen the measures of the bill and ensure their success in | :52:51. | :52:54. | |
practice and I urge honourable members to accept all the amendments | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
made in the Lords with the exception of amendment one. As earlier | :52:59. | :53:05. | |
explained, it is subject to financial privilege and I ask | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
members to reject it on that basis, noting the work I set out earlier | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
demonstrating our commitment to finding the most effective ways to | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
address barriers for the disadvantaged and apprenticeships. | :53:19. | :53:25. | |
The honourable gentleman said we should put our money where our mouth | :53:26. | :53:36. | |
is. We have my hundred thousand -- 900,000 apprentices at the moment. | :53:37. | :53:42. | |
20% come from the poorest fifth of areas and in terms of the national | :53:43. | :53:49. | |
careers service they have something like over 1300 enterprise advisers | :53:50. | :53:55. | |
going into schools. They are set to target 250,000 students in 75% of | :53:56. | :54:03. | |
career cold spots. The national career services there to give | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
careers and CV advice and personal contact people can either see | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
face-to-face or on the telephone or Internet. They have different roles. | :54:12. | :54:22. | |
I ask our members to accept amendment six on which many noble | :54:23. | :54:28. | |
Lords spoke. I spoke of the positive activity taking place at Derby | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
College, by no means the only college taking active steps to | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
provide high-quality careers advice to students. We have seen incredible | :54:38. | :54:46. | |
work in other places. We want to ensure all young people can access | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
such support and ask members to support this ambition by accepting | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
the amendment. He has been very generous. I know he is determined | :54:57. | :55:04. | |
and full of good intentions on this but good intentions to not provide | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
sound careers advice and guidance to young people in the system now and I | :55:09. | :55:14. | |
think we need more urgency from the Government in terms of backing up | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
that intention, which is a decent and well intentioned intention, to | :55:19. | :55:28. | |
make sure young people get impartial advice and guidance as soon as | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
possible. I thank him for his intervention. 90 million to be spent | :55:35. | :55:46. | |
on careers, predominantly with the careers enterprise company, with | :55:47. | :55:48. | |
enterprise advisers going into schools. ?20 million for mentoring | :55:49. | :55:59. | |
services in schools. The national careers service this year is getting | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
something like over ?75 million. To advise on careers. That is real | :56:04. | :56:11. | |
financial backing to two very important services. I'm listening to | :56:12. | :56:18. | |
what ministers saying that I seem to remember because I was actually a | :56:19. | :56:21. | |
member of the careers service National Association bought prior to | :56:22. | :56:28. | |
the invention of connections. The national budget for careers at that | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
time was something like ?130 million, more than 15 years ago. The | :56:34. | :56:39. | |
sort of figures the Minister is talking about in the current climate | :56:40. | :56:48. | |
is quite inadequate. Given the financial climate, 90 million to the | :56:49. | :56:55. | |
spent predominantly with enterprise company, the 75 million going to the | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
national careers service this year alone, I think that is a sizeable | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
sum of money given the climate. We are developing a careers strategy | :57:05. | :57:14. | |
which the... Obviously the election is now occurring but I hope the way | :57:15. | :57:21. | |
we see careers is much more skills focus and much more work in schools, | :57:22. | :57:30. | |
mentoring and work experience. I have said before that this is a bill | :57:31. | :57:41. | |
which is part of our reforms to give people a ladder of opportunity to | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
get the job and security and prosperity they need and ensure | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
technical education is held in the regard it deserves. In the unlikely | :57:52. | :57:57. | |
event of college insolvency it is the students who are protected. The | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
measures in vital changes supporting young people to build essential | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
skills our nation needs and provide the right support to enable young | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
people to claim that ladder. Many members across the House and another | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
place have spoken in support of that ambition and I would like to take | :58:17. | :58:28. | |
the opportunity to thank them. The question is that this House | :58:29. | :58:31. | |
disagrees with the Lords in their amendment number one. As many as are | :58:32. | :58:33. | |
of the opinion, say, "aye". To the contrary, "no". Division, clear the | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
lobby. As many as are of the opinion, say, | :58:39. | :59:42. | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no". Order, order. The aye to the right, | :59:43. | :11:36. | |
298, the noes to the lab, 182. -- to the left. | :11:37. | :11:47. | |
The Gordon Marsden, Henry Smith are the | :11:48. | :13:40. | |
members of the committee, that Robert Halfon be committee, that | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
three be the core of the committee and that the committee withdraw | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
immediately. I think the ayes have it. Thank you. We now come to motion | :13:51. | :14:00. | |
number five on section five of the European communities Amendment act | :14:01. | :14:08. | |
1993. Minister to move. Thank you. The legal requirement to give the | :14:09. | :14:17. | |
European Commission an update of the UK's economic position convergence | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
programme means a welcome opportunity for a wider economic | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
debate should be want one, and clearly since last year's... If | :14:25. | :14:32. | |
members can leave the chamber bit more quietly, than we can hear the | :14:33. | :14:39. | |
minister. Thank you. Thank you. Clearly since last year's | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
convergence programme debate there has been a momentous change in the | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
UK's relationship with European Union. The Article 50 process is | :14:47. | :14:54. | |
underway and the UK is leading the European Union and there cannot be | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
any turning back from that. -- leaving. In accordance with the | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
outcome of the referendum we are leaving the European Union and we | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
will make our own decisions and take control of the things that matter to | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
us and seize every opportunity to build a stronger and fairer Britain. | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
Given our decision to leave, some members may find it strange that we | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
are debating the UK's convergence programme today. It is right that we | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
do so, however. Because we continue to exercise our membership of the | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
European Union and our exit and doing so is a legal requirement and | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
one which we must take seriously. -- onto our exit. The content of the | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
convergence programme is drawn from the government's assessment of the | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
UK's economic and budgetary position and this assessment is based on the | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
Spring Budget report and the OBR's most recent outlook and it is this | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
content, not the convergence programme itself, that requires the | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
approval of the House. I should also remind the House that although the | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
UK participates in the growth pact that requires convergence programmes | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
to be submitted, by virtue of our protocol to the treaty, opting out | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
of the euro, we are only required to endeavour to avoid excessive | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
deficits. UK cannot be subject to any sanctions as a result of our | :16:17. | :16:17. | |
participation in. How much influence have the | :16:18. | :16:37. | |
requirements had an successive UK governments to drive more austerity | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
and cuts? In the seven years that I have been a Treasury minister, I | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
have not noticed this convergence programme having an influence upon | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
the decisions we have taken. We have taken decisions to reduce the | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
deficit because we believed it was in the long-term interests of the | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
United Kingdom rather than because of any requirements under EU | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
treaties. Let me provide a brief overview of the information we will | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
set out on the programme. Right Honourable members should note this | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
does not represent new information but captures the government's | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
assessment of the budgetary position. It is there to say that, | :17:26. | :17:32. | |
in March 2017, we were in a better position than many predicted. Growth | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
in the second half of 2016 was stronger than the oh BR had | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
anticipated in the Autumn Statement. In fact, last year, the UK grew | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
faster than other advanced economies. Following a period of | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
robust economic growth, rising employment and falling deficit, we | :17:57. | :18:05. | |
choose to safeguard that economic stability and that is particularly | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
important as we prepare our country to leave the European Union. Our | :18:09. | :18:20. | |
European partners continue to judge that tutor consumer demand and a | :18:21. | :18:29. | |
rise putting public finances in good order will remain vital for the | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
foreseeable future. All the more so given that the deficit remains too | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
high and that our range of potential risks in the global economy. That is | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
why we are getting ourselves in a position of readiness to handle | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
difficulties of any kind which may come our way. Other fiscal rules to | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
do so are ones which strike the right balance between reducing the | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
deficit, maintaining flexibility and investing for the long term. Overall | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
public sector net borrowing is predicted to fall from 3.8% last | :19:03. | :19:09. | |
year to 2.6% this year. This means we forecast to meet our 3% stability | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
target this year for the first time in almost a decade. Borrowing is | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
forecast to be 2.9% in 2017-18 and to fall over the remainder of the | :19:22. | :19:29. | |
years ahead to 0.9% in 2018-19 before reaching 0.7% in 2021-22, its | :19:30. | :19:41. | |
lowest level in two decades. While the economic forecasts are | :19:42. | :19:49. | |
unchanged, the oh BR has revised down its forecast of net borrowing. | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
We will hold an increase of the national debt as a proportion to | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
GDP. That is forecast to peak and then fall in the subsequent years. | :20:01. | :20:08. | |
Is it not also important to remind the House the ?435 billion of debt | :20:09. | :20:20. | |
is now owned by the state? My right honourable friend is correct in | :20:21. | :20:29. | |
terms of where it is owed, but nonetheless, as a country, we do | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
have to be wary of a level of debt that is marred by recent historic | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
standards and it is right that we show determination to set out a plan | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
as to how that debt to GDP ratio can be reduced to ensure that the UK is | :20:46. | :20:54. | |
a more resilient place to absorb shocks to our economy and public | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
finances that do from time to time occur. Beyond our fiscal rules to | :21:00. | :21:07. | |
protect the public purse and prepare our economy, the budget also sets | :21:08. | :21:10. | |
out a wide range of this thing is that the government will do to | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
invest in our future. That includes giving our children the chance to go | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
to a goodwill outstanding school, helping people across the country | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
get the skills they need for high paid, high school jobs of the | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
future, and investing in cutting edge technology and innovation so | :21:30. | :21:32. | |
Britain continues to be at the forefront of the global technology | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
revolution. Three things part of our efforts to address the country's | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
productivity challenges. The budget also promised greater support for | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
our social care system with additional funding so people get the | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
care they deserve as they grow older and it works to strengthen our | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
public services over the long-term in our determination to bring down | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
the deficit and get the UK back to living within our means and funding | :22:00. | :22:06. | |
our public services through the long-term. The spring budget | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
therefore was one that made the most of the opportunities ahead by laying | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
the foundations of a stronger, fairer and better Britain. Following | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
the House's approval of the assessment that forms the basis of | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
the convergence programme, the government will submit it to the | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
Council of the European Union, European Commission, with | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
recommendations expected from the commission in May. The submission by | :22:35. | :22:44. | |
non-euro member states also provides a useful framework for coordinating | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
fiscal policies will stop a degree of fiscal policy coordination can be | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
beneficial in ensuring stable global economy which is in the UK's | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
national interest. The UK has or is taken part in international | :23:00. | :23:01. | |
mechanisms for policy coordination is. Although we are leaving the EU, | :23:02. | :23:09. | |
we will continue to have a deep interest in the economic stability | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
and prosperity of our European friends and neighbours so we will | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
continue to play our part in this process and in other international | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
coordination processes once we have left the EU. The government is | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
committed to ensuring that we act in full accordance with section five, | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
and that this House approves the economic and budgetary assessments | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
that forms the basis of the convergence programme. The question | :23:41. | :23:49. | |
is as on the order paper. We find ourselves in a strange position, | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
debating a motion that seeks to prove the government's convergence | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
programme with the EU at the start of an election campaign in the | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
context of leaving the EU. An unusual set of circumstances, to say | :24:04. | :24:06. | |
the least. Some see it as almost theological! There will no longer be | :24:07. | :24:16. | |
a requirement for convergence and what the Conservatives have no idea | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
as to how our economy will work post Brexit, it is a simple if flawed in | :24:22. | :24:29. | |
dangerous plan regardless of the position that people were in the | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
referendum. A complete lack of vision from this government means no | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
one can be confident in what our economy will look like in just two | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
years' time. Labour accepts the referendum result, and that is why | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
we did not frustrate the triggering of article 15 negotiations, but what | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
we will never support as the chaos of a Conservative plan for Brexit | :24:54. | :24:56. | |
that will see our economy put in danger. That is not being a | :24:57. | :25:06. | |
saboteur, it is doing the job we were sent here to do. Wealth | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
concentrated in the hands of the tiny super-rich elite is not | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
particularly good. That is not what people voted for. We have heard much | :25:18. | :25:25. | |
in the debate in the past few months about taking back control, time | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
after time, we were told we would take back control. That should not | :25:31. | :25:39. | |
be put into the hands of a group of plutocrats were leaving most people | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
across the country worse yet after year. When we do take back control, | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
that has got to be control shared by everybody, not just a few. Our | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
Labour government will deliver a final deal that reflects Labour's | :25:53. | :26:02. | |
values, defending people's rights and protections and preventing a | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
race to the bottom because there is a fear that there will be a race to | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
the bottom. A better future for the whole country under a Labour | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
government or a bargain basement tax haven under the Conservatives. In | :26:17. | :26:26. | |
2016, UK exports of goods and services totalled ?548 billion to | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
the EU and imports totalled 558 billion. Despite the government's | :26:32. | :26:44. | |
laid-back approach to trade with EU, it is heartbreaking to put much of | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
those exports and new imports at risk. We have become the world's | :26:49. | :26:59. | |
worst performing currency in October last year. Many economists now | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
suspect the pound to depreciate even further as negotiations deadlock and | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
flounder. When coming to office, the Conservatives committed to balancing | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
the books by 2015, the book that problem is, a promise broken. They | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
said it would then be put back to 19, 20, that was not delivered on. | :27:21. | :27:27. | |
Here we are, days away without the government making as much progress | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
as they promised they would in relation to the deficit and the | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
Chancellor regularly saying, it is a rolling target. You cannot have a | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
rolling target. You either have a target will you do not. Under this | :27:40. | :27:50. | |
government, debt as a percentage GDP has continued to rise. How can that | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
be a sign of the how the economy? GDP growth has not once passed its | :27:56. | :28:04. | |
precrisis trend rate of 2.3%. In fact, growth has been revised down | :28:05. | :28:12. | |
and now, in 2019-20, hardly the sign of a strong economy. In seven years, | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
the Conservatives have borrowed ?750 million, and I will remind people | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
that is more than all the governments combined. Since 2010, | :28:22. | :28:28. | |
ten out of 24 government is budgeted to have seen an increase in | :28:29. | :28:35. | |
borrowing and the government's borrowing summed up in two words, | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
missed targets. Make no mistake, they are a government of borrowing. | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
Public finances each year have huge gaping holes. This year we saw the | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
Chancellor's attempt to hit self-employed workers with national | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
insurance contributions, and we understand the Conservative's U-turn | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
left a ?200 million black hole. How can we rely on the Conservatives | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
when we know the sums do not add up? This feeds into the wider problem | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
with public finances. Children are sitting in crumbling schools. Up and | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
down the country, people waiting even longer to be seen by | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
professionals in NHS. It is undergoing the worst crisis in | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
history. So why do we have this sorry state of affairs? Because this | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
Conservatives have sacrificed services everyone have used just to | :29:33. | :29:39. | |
make tax cuts for corporations and the super-rich. The government has | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
provided over the slowest recovery since the 1920s with economic growth | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
and average earnings downgraded yet again and, despite falling | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
unemployment, workers are suffering the worst pay in 70 years. And of | :29:53. | :30:02. | |
course, the government has done very little to tackle the scandal of | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
chronic low pay and insecure employment, and that is reflective | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
of an economy not working the way the government claims it is. The | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
government has promised the national living wage will go up, but cost of | :30:16. | :30:24. | |
living goes up. It makes no mention of the continued economic balanced | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
between devolved nations and the regions. We simply cannot continue | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
to have such an unbalanced and unequal economy. It goes back to the | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
point I made in the start in terms of this question of that disparity | :30:40. | :30:46. | |
in regional economic growth. It is there in my own region and many | :30:47. | :30:48. | |
other regions. How much extra tax should the | :30:49. | :30:56. | |
government imposed next year to deal with the Budget deficit he is | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
worried about? We will have that debate in the general election | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
process. This government has pledged to take back control from Brussels | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
but what about controls for those millions of people living outside | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
the M25? How can this government square the desire for less | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
interference from Brussels but at the same time, for example, the | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government doesn't bat an | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
eyelid when banning local councils all over the country from charging | :31:28. | :31:35. | |
?1 for fun runs in local parks. Is it really the job of the secretary | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
of state to micromanage park budgets? Have we come to that, where | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
the Secretary of State can say you can't charge ?1 or 50p. It is | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
ludicrous. That is why we have to take control, so that when control | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
comes back it has to be pushed down. It is bizarre that the secretary of | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
state has taken that position when he and his predecessors have cut | :32:01. | :32:07. | |
local governments abroad by 50% in some areas. Huge budget cuts and | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
interference with piddling amounts of money like ?1 for park runs. It | :32:14. | :32:20. | |
is pretty pathetic. My honourable friend is making a powerful set of | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
points. On local government finance, it is all very well for the | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
government to withdraw revenue support but at the same time not | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
doing anything about the other side of the account. The other side is | :32:34. | :32:39. | |
the council tax banding system. They are not doing anything to rebalance | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
the banding system which makes up the local government revenue apart | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
from the support grant. If you don't do that, it is grossly unfair. The | :32:49. | :32:55. | |
revenue support grant was brought in because band D medium didn't exist | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
in all parts of the country, certainly not in the north-east. It | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
is required for its inception in the early 1990s. My honourable friend | :33:04. | :33:10. | |
makes a fair point. This government has abandoned local government | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
unless you happen to be Surrey County Council. We cannot have a | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
fair and prosperous economy until all the regions and cities have | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
adequate access to funding and investment in infrastructure. And | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
until the power to implement financial decisions are on a local | :33:30. | :33:36. | |
level. The referendum result was not just a result against one | :33:37. | :33:44. | |
unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels but also an accountability | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
at local levels. For many people, the government is alien and has no | :33:48. | :33:54. | |
relevance to their day-to-day lives. They see it as a bubble and as we | :33:55. | :34:05. | |
have seen, often it is a bubble. Westminster and Whitehall making | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
these decisions and little consideration to the ramifications | :34:11. | :34:12. | |
and disastrous effects on the policies have an ordinary people. | :34:13. | :34:19. | |
Post Brexit Britain must look at devolving powers to local | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
authorities across the country. We can no longer have a unitary state | :34:24. | :34:30. | |
run by diktat from London. In the assemblies and regional | :34:31. | :34:41. | |
... You have got to give the power and the responsibility to go with | :34:42. | :34:50. | |
them and the government has been dragging its feet in regard to that. | :34:51. | :34:58. | |
Our economy under seven years of Tory mismanagement has seen stagnant | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
wages, slow growth, low productivity. The minister didn't | :35:04. | :35:05. | |
mention productivity once in his speech. OK, maybe once. Excessive | :35:06. | :35:14. | |
borrowing, rising debt and failed promises. The Chancellor has resided | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
over an economy that has given tax giveaways to the richest at the | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
expects on those on low and middle incomes. They fail to balance books | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
and if re-elected the Conservatives would cut tax in a desperate bid to | :35:30. | :35:36. | |
attract overseas investment to transform our economy into a low pay | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
and low tax economy. It doesn't account for is catastrophic record | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
and huge black holes in public spending and makes no assessment of | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
what the post Brexit economy will look like and nor does it at | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
knowledge the economic difficulties ahead and I would urge the house to | :35:54. | :36:02. | |
rejected. The pleasure for this my final speech in the Commons before | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
the general elections, the electors of Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath will | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
determine whether I return to make a speech in the future. I was | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
intrigued by the opening of the Honma number for Bootle when he | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
pointed out it was a strange debate to have when we are facing being | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
dragged out of the European Union and we are discussing convergence. I | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
took a leaf out of the honourable member's leader, since I knew it | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
would be a tremendously popular debate, you can just look around at | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
the filled benches to see how popular, I thought I would tweet | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
that I would be speaking on this important topic. My hope was that I | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
would get the equivalent of Merry from Rochdale letting me know the | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
key points to raise. Only one person replied with a suggestion of what I | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
should include in my speech. Could you say hello to my auntie Sadie in | :37:02. | :37:09. | |
Harlem. I couldn't possibly do that in a speech of such importance but | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
it clarifies that many of the things that we debate are of a very | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
technical nature and difficult for the public to engage in. | :37:20. | :37:21. | |
Nevertheless, they are very important. The minister talked in | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
his early remarks about the ODI and the forecast made. Showing great | :37:28. | :37:34. | |
precedents, or lack of it on my part, yesterday, Scott started to | :37:35. | :37:43. | |
work for me for the first time, he started his job on the day that the | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
general election was declared. I asked him to contact the library and | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
find out how many independent valuations had ever been done of the | :37:55. | :38:03. | |
Treasury all Treasury OBR model of the economy. Eventually, the library | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
got back to me and said they could find no independent evaluations of | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
the OBR or treasure late-model of the economy had ever been | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
undertaken. This is not surprisingly new see some of the results of this | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
model. Indeed, I thought, in following up I ask him to look at | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
how the model was described by the OBR. On which come you can find on | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
their website the wonderful statement that much of this model is | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
based on not hard fact but based on the judgment of those using it. | :38:37. | :38:43. | |
Different people who are using it, the result might be incredibly | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
different from using the same model. So, I think that there will come a | :38:47. | :38:52. | |
time in the future when governments of whatever shade are going to have | :38:53. | :38:59. | |
to consider the way in which we understand and model the economy and | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
how far we can ever rely on forecasts of the type we have been | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
receiving for a good number of years. I thought since this could | :39:08. | :39:14. | |
obviously be a fairly wide raging debate, thinking about the future, I | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
thought there would be one or two remarks I could make about issues | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
that will still need to be addressed when we exit the European Union. The | :39:22. | :39:29. | |
exit in itself won't contribute anything, it will require the will | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
of government to be able to do something. But the minister | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
mentioned, quite rightly, the importance of business investment. | :39:39. | :39:45. | |
One of the debates we held in this house, I think it was last year, the | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
honourable member from Bootle icing to recall took part in it, a debate | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
on quantitative easing. I think that was slightly less popular. And this | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
debate. With the numbers that took part in it. Nonetheless, it was | :40:02. | :40:07. | |
interesting at that time that so many of those who decided to speak | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
talked about the problem, the Kiwi had created by investment. -- that Q | :40:13. | :40:23. | |
E had created by investment. The consequence of which would be to | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
increase confidence in business and lead to a significant increase in | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
investment. We know that has not happened despite well over 600 | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
billion of Q E being introduced. It would be interesting to know how the | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
future government will tackle the rewinding of Q E. There has also | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
been in recent days some very intemperate remarks made by senior | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
bankers about the business sector. I would like to point to just two days | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
ago, three days ago, in the express, when a senior banker quoted from RBS | :41:02. | :41:13. | |
talk of S M Es pursuing getting some reconciliation to the problems they | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
have had through DRG and the like. They were called by the senior | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
executive of RBS as a bunch of chances. Can you imagine any other | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
industry who would talk about their customers as being a bunch of | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
chancers. Apparently they were chancers because they might have the | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
other City to go to the courts and seek redress. What you know when you | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
look at RBS accounts? You will see that they have tripled the amount of | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
money RBS has set aside for the hiring in of lawyers to defend | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
cases. I see the right honourable gentleman nodding. I believe it is | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
in the order of close to ?1 billion of what they expect they are going | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
to have to defend. Surely this says something about banking culture in | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
our society that will still need to be addressed in the future. Finally, | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
one of the things that I have been doing in this house is pursuing the | :42:16. | :42:25. | |
issue of Scottish limited partnerships and other firms of | :42:26. | :42:27. | |
limited partnerships that have been particularly since 2008 subjected to | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
use by International criminals, including and perhaps in particular | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
from Eastern Europe, the Ukraine, Russia and the like, it amounts now | :42:36. | :42:43. | |
too many billions of pounds that the urgent question that we faced about | :42:44. | :42:50. | |
ten days, I think, before recess on the big latest money laundering | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
scandal when I questioned the minister at the time I pointed out | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
that at their heart lie these limited partnerships. Since 2008, | :42:59. | :43:05. | |
there have been 22,000 Scottish limited partnerships created that | :43:06. | :43:13. | |
have completely been opaque. We have no idea who is owning them. Many of | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
them seek to operate in tax havens and many seek to launder significant | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
amounts of criminal assets. I think this is an issue. Does he and his | :43:25. | :43:35. | |
party think that the EU is right to say that a state debts should not be | :43:36. | :43:43. | |
above 60% of GDP? I think it is reasonable for the EU to seek | :43:44. | :43:50. | |
reasonable control of debt. Since the Scottish Parliament was created | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
you could at least say today that the Scottish Government has | :43:56. | :43:58. | |
absolutely no debt, something that this government cannot claim to be | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
able to save. When you look towards the future, regardless of whether we | :44:05. | :44:10. | |
were going to be in or out of the EU, this country, the UK, and all | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
its member nations, still face major economic challenges that require | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
will and intelligence to address. That surely is the message that we | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
should all be taking to our constituents as we face the future. | :44:27. | :44:35. | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. As I stated in my opening remarks, as | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
much as 30 minutes ago, following this debate, and with Parliamentary | :44:41. | :44:52. | |
approval, we will look forward to the assessment of our economic and | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
budgetary position, based on evidence that has been presented to | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
Parliament. Presenting this submission through the convergence | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
programme is a legal requirement under the EU. A couple of points | :45:04. | :45:12. | |
made by the honourable member for Bootle. He makes the case for | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
greater devolution. Can I remind him that it is this government that has | :45:19. | :45:25. | |
put in place the new metro mayors. No doubt he's spending much of his | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
weekends and constituency Friday's campaigning for the Labour | :45:32. | :45:39. | |
candidates for mayor of the Liverpool city region and we've | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
obviously got elections in Manchester and the West Midlands as | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
well. This is not something that was created by the previous Labour | :45:51. | :45:53. | |
government, this is something that was created by this government, | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
recognising the need for decisions to be made at local levels and real | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
power is being devolved at that level. | :46:02. | :46:12. | |
He also made the accusation that I have not touched on, the issue of | :46:13. | :46:22. | |
productivity. He made comments about the Chancellor not discussing the | :46:23. | :46:27. | |
issues of productivity whereas the Chancellor makes very regular | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
comments in respect of the need to improve our productivity. I drew | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
attention to the measures we were taking on schools, skills and | :46:37. | :46:44. | |
technology and innovation, which are at the heart of our efforts to | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
address the country's long-standing productivity challenges. It is very | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
difficult to see how the policies of the Labour Party, that will drive | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
away briskness investment and discourage enterprise and | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
innovation, would do anything other than weaken our productivity. -- | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
business. If he wishes to fight the next few weeks on the subject of | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
productivity, I for one would welcome that. In the Budget we set | :47:12. | :47:19. | |
out earlier this year, we continue to prepare this country for | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
long-term prosperity. First and foremost by putting our economic | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
stability first, by continuing to improve the state of our public | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
finances, but we also set up meaningful investment in our future | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
productivity and current public services. This is a plan therefore | :47:38. | :47:40. | |
that strikes the right balance between reducing our deficit, | :47:41. | :47:46. | |
preserving fiscal stability and investing in Britain's future. Those | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
of the foundations of the strong and stable platform for the upcoming | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
Brexit negotiations. This is the full the basis for the convergence | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
programme we presented the European Union, and on that basis, I am | :48:03. | :48:09. | |
pleased to to the House, which I beg to move. The question is as on the | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
order paper. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, | :48:14. | :48:14. | |
"no". Division, clear the lobby. As many as are of the opinion, say | :48:15. | :49:46. | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no". Tellers for the ayes, tellers for | :49:47. | :49:49. | |
the noes, thank you. Order, order! The ayes to the right | :49:50. | :02:37. | |
to hunt and 38. The noes to the left, 191. The ayes have it! | :02:38. | :02:51. | |
Armlock. Point of order, Alison Pulis. Madam Deputy Speaker, you may | :02:52. | :03:04. | |
remember that I had tried to debate the government rape clause in this | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
house. The last time I raised this, the usual channels came back to me | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
that there would be time made in a committee for the clause to be | :03:13. | :03:19. | |
debated. The list has appeared in the whips office and as far as I | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
know there will not be time with the proposed election there will not be | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
time for the rape clause to be debated in this house. In Scotland, | :03:33. | :03:39. | |
the NHS and women's organisation are refusing to co-operate with the | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
guidance because they did believe it is not sound. Is there any recourse | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
to raise this with the government so that these very important issues do | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
get debated. The honourable lady has successfully done so herself as she | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
sees on the Treasury benches the leader of the house will take up the | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
matter with the honourable lady. I thank her for the point of order and | :04:01. | :04:07. | |
the notice of it. I beg to move that this house do now adjourned. Jim | :04:08. | :04:17. | |
Shannon. It is always a privilege to speak in this house. On this | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
occasion, it is something I have wanted to do for some time on the | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
case of the watch Raw UDR men murdered. They had worked together | :04:26. | :04:34. | |
for some time. The crack was great, as they travelled on a beautiful | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
morning, just like any number of others on a day like today, leaving | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
behind wives and children and loved ones, they wanted to do their job | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
and earn their pay like anyone of us would do. There the similarity ends | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
because the atrocity on false. I'm sure the members of the house will | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
give some adherence to the importance of this issue. I declare | :04:57. | :05:03. | |
an interest as a member of the also the defence Regiment. I served it | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
for three years as did other gallant members of this house and in other | :05:09. | :05:10. | |
regiments and we are very pleased that they have made an effort to | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
come to the chamber. On the morning of the 9th of April 1990, John | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
Birch, Michael Bradley, Michael Adams and the private Stephen Smart, | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
all members of the UDR were murdered with an attack on their mobile | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
patrol in Downpatrick. All were travelling as a part of a two Land | :05:34. | :05:42. | |
Rover patrol where a 1000 lb bomb, imagine the magnitude of that, | :05:43. | :05:53. | |
beneath the road was dead on it and it was detonated and they were | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
hurled 30 yards into a field, killed near instantly and creating a | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
creator 40 feet wide and 15 feet deep. Those are the facts of what | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
happened that fateful morning. Their families were torn apart, never to | :06:09. | :06:15. | |
be the same. The men in service of Queen and country. Much like the | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
officer on duty last month in this place. No link to anything other | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
than the desire to wear the uniform and serve their community. Ireland | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
are three of these men very well. John Bradley, married with a son and | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
daughter. He had recently been promoted. He served with the Royal | :06:39. | :06:45. | |
Highland Fusiliers that came from Renfrewshire. Another of the men | :06:46. | :06:55. | |
came from where I was raised. I can remember him being born. His wife | :06:56. | :07:03. | |
was expecting again. Private Stephen Smart coming from the main town of | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
my constituency. His mother is dead but his father is still living. I | :07:10. | :07:21. | |
thank the honourable member for Strangford for giving way and | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
bringing this adjournment Ford. I had the honour of serving in the | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
third County Down battalion, the same battalion as these brave | :07:32. | :07:33. | |
soldiers. Will the honourable member agree with me that tragic as their | :07:34. | :07:40. | |
deaths are, their sacrifice and the sacrifice of that regiment was | :07:41. | :07:48. | |
immense. Their legacy, is the fact that our children and grandchildren | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
can walk the streets of Northern Ireland not having to look over | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
their shoulder because of the bravery of the men and women who | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
served in the Ulster Defence Regiment, the Royal Ulster | :08:01. | :08:02. | |
Constabulary and the other fine regiments that came to Northern | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
Ireland, men and women who put their lives on the line. I thank my right | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
honourable friend for the intervention. He's absolutely right. | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
Those who served in uniform in that Regiment and others deserve every | :08:18. | :08:24. | |
recognition for what they have done. Michael Adams, 23, also from Newton | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
Ards who served for seven months with the Regiment. I served with him | :08:29. | :08:35. | |
in the order I served in 11 a half years with the TA. I remember doing | :08:36. | :08:46. | |
guard duty with him. I'm not sure if we had done anything wrong. We had | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
the radio and we were listening to tunes, one of them was Stand By Me a | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
1960s song, we are doing the very same thing with them today. These | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
are men I knew well and faces I recall right now and I honour and | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
respect today. I saw one of their mothers the week before last and her | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
grief is still evident. These are men who deserve justice who were | :09:17. | :09:23. | |
brutally murdered. Could I thank the honourable gentleman for giving way | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
and say that I well remember that morning of the 9th of April 19 90. | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
At that stage it was 7:30am and I had worked for my predecessor at | :09:34. | :09:40. | |
that stage, we got a phone call to the office from the BBC to say what | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
had happened. Our shark and our abortion and our opposition -- our | :09:47. | :09:53. | |
shock and our roof portion and our position was made quite clear. Is he | :09:54. | :10:00. | |
aware of it to an a half weeks later on a Sunday afternoon that there was | :10:01. | :10:07. | |
a piece demonstration in Downpatrick from the car park in lower market | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
Street out to the scene of that terrible atrocity? That was done to | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
clearly illustrate that this was not done in our name and our total | :10:18. | :10:28. | |
opposition and false to all forms of violence -- and revulsion to all | :10:29. | :10:38. | |
forms of violence and terror. It also indicates the revulsion in the | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
whole of the community in Downpatrick in relation to this. He | :10:42. | :10:48. | |
mentioned the mother of one of the victims and mentioned children and | :10:49. | :10:57. | |
sometimes we're inclined to forget about the families who were left | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
after all of those years after this has happened and I'm sure you will | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
agree that we must keep them to the fore. I thank my honourable friend | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
and colleague for that intervention and he is right. This debate is an | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
opportunity to recall the bravery of those young men and also to ask the | :11:16. | :11:22. | |
Minister to respond and to ask for some action in relation to this. We | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
will do that at the end. Discussing the actions of what is the 16 man | :11:29. | :11:41. | |
and women team who helped to plan this. We all recall the pain and | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
suffering of the loss of a loved one of friends and colleagues and we | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
still carry that pain today. Plenty of other people in this chamber also | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
carry pain. I think of the gallant friend across the way and minister | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
who have served in uniform in Northern Ireland. I thank my | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
honourable friend, gallant friend for giving way. The victims who are | :12:06. | :12:15. | |
left behind, the mums, dads, the brothers, sisters, children's, | :12:16. | :12:17. | |
sweethearts, their lives are actually defined by these events | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
because their lives are defined by what happened after I lost my loved | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
one. It's only in the definition of their victimhood that we will | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
actually be able to heal in some way and cure that pain when justice is | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
achieved for those people. Hopefully, through his debate we can | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
actually open up a way of finding justice and Ealing for the people | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
left behind. I thank my honourable friend and colleague for his | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
thoughtful intervention and those very kind words. Like too many | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
people in the province I have been touched by the actions of men like | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
the leader of the provisional IRA responsible for the murder of the | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
four UDR men. That vile, despicable excuse for a human being was an | :13:07. | :13:14. | |
named Colin Marks. It's no coincidence that when he was shot, | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
the activity of the IRA in the South immediately. A person who was | :13:19. | :13:26. | |
pulling the strings and dictating and taking part in action that was | :13:27. | :13:34. | |
completely unacceptable. I thank the honourable member for giving way | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
again. He comes to an important point that I think needs to be | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
emphasised. We have come to a sorry place when it is the men and women | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
who put on uniforms and who defend and protect the community and in the | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
case of Colin Marks, who shot someone who was a commander in the | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
IRA and saved countless lives as a result, they are the people waiting | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
on the knock at the door. They are wondering if someone is going to | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
come looking for them to bring them, call them before a court to make | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
them answer for what they did which was within the law and was about | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
protecting and defending the community and we want to see the | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
government do more to protect the integrity of the men and women who | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
served in Northern Ireland in this operation and other theatres of | :14:27. | :14:33. | |
conflict. They deserve that support. That's part of what about today. | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
This debate is also about seeking justice and to have justice for | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
those who served in uniform and the importance of that. He headed up the | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
gang, lying in wait with his detonator in a forest just across | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
from Bally Dougan. Whenever he pushed the button and killed for and | :14:55. | :15:06. | |
-- for brave and courageous young man, went away, disposed of his blue | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
boiler suit, was picked up by somebody else, there were 16 people | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
involved. Somebody told the people that the Land Rover patrol was on | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
its way. Another person confirmed that. A person left a 1000 lb arm. | :15:22. | :15:31. | |
Multiply a bag of sugar by a thousand times and you have the | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
magnitude of that bomb. How many people did it take to put that | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
bombing that culvert. They were seen doing it. Just why was that | :15:40. | :15:49. | |
evidence, visual evidence not acted upon in the way it should have been? | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
To warn that UDR patrol and other patrols in the area of what it was | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
about. There was a person when he was picked up at the shopping centre | :16:00. | :16:06. | |
and taken to a safe house where he was showered and changed his clothes | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
which were destroyed and moved to another house. 16 people were | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
involved in the murder of those UDR men. Colin Marks pushed the button | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
and blew the men to smithereens. He was also the IRA commander who was | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
involved on in the murder of another man. A coal merchant selling coal. | :16:28. | :16:39. | |
As he did his last delivery he was attacked by two men and was shot | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
dead. This man has his hands red with blood. He is, let's be honest, | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
he wasn't a freedom fighter, he was a lowlife efficient psychopath with | :16:51. | :16:59. | |
no human decency, rotten to the core, contemptible, detestable, | :17:00. | :17:02. | |
loathsome. No good whatsoever. A man who should never have been born. | :17:03. | :17:11. | |
The member is defining a person in a very particular way. The see also | :17:12. | :17:20. | |
salute the gallantry of the people who stood up to that beast, and | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
recognise we won? Because the war they claim to be fighting for, today | :17:28. | :17:36. | |
we are administering British rule in Northern Ireland. There is no all | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
Irish Republic. We're not going anywhere else. The death has sealed | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
the fact that it has been a victorious and gallant death. There | :17:49. | :17:57. | |
are not another objective is to describe this loathsome person. All | :17:58. | :18:06. | |
of the others involved in this as well. Nine people were arrested. I | :18:07. | :18:13. | |
have read the historical report into this. Nine people were arrested, one | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
was charged. But the person who killed the men, he was free, at | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
least he was until one fateful day for him. As he was sitting up a bomb | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
to attack and kill more people in Downpatrick, he was caught in the | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
act, and was shot in the act of trying to kill other men and police | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
officers. So justice was done in that he came to the end of his | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
reign. It is a pity it did not happen earlier. This is the legacy | :18:48. | :19:05. | |
of death, the legacy left by the as one of honour, sacrifice, dignity | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
strength and great love for not only the families but the country and its | :19:10. | :19:24. | |
people. We stand to reiterate this. Colin Marx and the rest of us serve | :19:25. | :19:32. | |
nothing other than the label of what they were, odious, filthy scum. May | :19:33. | :19:44. | |
I speak for some of us that were in Northern Ireland in the army, the | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
regular army, and I include the Minister? We, those of us that | :19:48. | :19:55. | |
served in the regular army, had incredible respect, affection. We | :19:56. | :20:05. | |
salute the gallantry of every single member of the Royal Ulster | :20:06. | :20:15. | |
Constabulary, the Ulster Defence Regiment and anyone that served the | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
Crown in Northern Ireland who was a target of terrorism. We salute them, | :20:22. | :20:32. | |
particularly because you live that, worked with your family around you. | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
Those people had the huge threat of doing their duty, as the minister | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
and I did not with our family around us, and to actually do that, we had | :20:46. | :20:54. | |
huge respect for those that did that. And in that way, I also | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
includes politicians of Northern Ireland who also were on the huge | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
threat. And I am sorry if my intervention was long but I wanted | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
to make that point from those of us were not normally living in Northern | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
Ireland. I thank the honourable and gallant member for his contribution. | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
I always look forward to his contribution to this House because | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
they are wise words of a person who has served and done much for us in | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
this chamber for those further afield. His knowledge and command of | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
it. I know why the soldiers followed him, and we appreciate and thank him | :21:35. | :21:44. | |
for that. The soldiers were traumatised by repeated destruction | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
of the memorial. There were not sufficient with killing the four | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
brave men, those evil people, they took a sledgehammer down and slashed | :21:57. | :22:03. | |
the memorial at Bally Dougan. I was able as a counsellor to see the | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
direction of the memorial for those four young men, three of them came | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
from the area, and Lance Corporal Barry came from just outside the | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
area. The memorial was desecrated and treated with no respect or | :22:23. | :22:30. | |
common decency. Yet again, I thank the honourable member for giving | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
way, but he has come to an important point. We hear a lot from those who | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
are elected to this House but do not take their seats about respect. That | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
word, respect. We would like to see a bit more respect given by Sinn | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
Fein to the men and women who serve our country, and we would like to | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
see the Armed Forces covenant fully implemented in Northern Ireland to | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
ensure the families and veterans who served this country and sacrificed | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
so much I given the support they deserve. So let's see Sinn Fein step | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
up to the mark and show respect for a change. I thank the honourable | :23:10. | :23:16. | |
gentleman for that. Respect is something that is urgent and is very | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
much lacking from the side of Sinn Fein. In relation to what we are | :23:23. | :23:29. | |
hoping to achieve. I thank the honourable gentleman for giving way | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
again and I say this ever so gently, would he agree with me that there is | :23:36. | :23:45. | |
a need now to have a resolution to the political talks process? One of | :23:46. | :23:53. | |
those issues are to do with legacy. We come from perhaps different | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
perspectives, but we all understand that many people lost their lives in | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
very difficult tragic circumstances. Would he agree with me then now | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
needs to be a resolution of this outstanding issues to allow this | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
political institutions to be up and running in Northern Ireland, to | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
provide the people than seeing a stripping of public services? I | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
thank her for her intervention and I agree with that. It is important. We | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
are committed to the talks process in the way forward. We just wish | :24:28. | :24:34. | |
those participants in it were of the same mind, but there is a need of | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
understanding and respect the people's traditions. We wish very | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
much for that and hope that Sinn Fein will do the same. The families' | :24:44. | :24:58. | |
lost will never be forgotten. Samuel Smart's dad came to my office last | :24:59. | :25:06. | |
year and left me with a large thing wrapped up a newspaper. It turned | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
out to be a blackthorn stick, which she presented to me, and wanted to | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
give to me many years ago but I always refused and said, I I am not | :25:16. | :25:30. | |
here to get it. The motif of the Ulster Defence Regiment. He says, I | :25:31. | :25:38. | |
have got one for you and one for me. The reason for this debate again is | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
to say I can only imagine the pain of 27 years, children without their | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
parents and parents without the children. I can only imagine how | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
every bit of terrorism is like a knife in your stomach, and this | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
debate will also be Northern Ireland as well. Would-be member agree with | :26:00. | :26:10. | |
me that we also need to concentrate on mental health and how we look at | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
these families and everybody else and find a solution we can all agree | :26:14. | :26:22. | |
on as soon as possible? He very clearly outlines part of the issue. | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
The member referred to it earlier on. There is traumatised nation | :26:27. | :26:37. | |
amongst those who have survived, and many in this chamber have served as | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
well, and it is was good to see them here. I can only imagine how every | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
provocation of terrorism bill is like a knife in your stomach. I | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
cannot imagine anything worse than the murder of your child, fibre or | :26:50. | :26:56. | |
spouse. I can only imagine, as you cry for your loss and ask for | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
justice, watching those that came to the table with bloody hands having | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
investigations and apologies handing out, what seems to be left, right | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
and centre. I can only imagine what that means. I do and we'll do what | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
we can in this House to highlight the issue and make the point. I | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
standard this chamber with my colleagues and friends and declare | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
again that we refuse to allow the rewriting of history to be made for | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
evil seem to be good and for the unjustifiable to be thought of as | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
anyway justified. We call a ban on the British government and the | :27:37. | :27:47. | |
Minister... -- call upon. Could I just say to him that we hear a lot | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
from Sinn Fein, calling for disclosure of government documents. | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
I think it is about time there was disclosure from those members in the | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
IRA and the IRA themselves, to hear why the four were targeted, and I | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
think there is a noble miss the is missing. The members served in the | :28:10. | :28:22. | |
Ulster Defence Regiment as well. He wore the uniform of Queen and | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
country as well. We need Sinn Fein to step up, to recognise that there | :28:27. | :28:33. | |
is an understanding of what we have suffered over the years in our | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
community and the need to address that. I am sure he would join with | :28:38. | :28:44. | |
me when we talk about the pain and disgust and disclosure and all the | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
rest of it, whenever it was disclosed that certain members | :28:51. | :28:53. | |
received letters of comfort and victims were still suffering, I am | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
sure he will know that this party and the people of Northern Ireland | :28:59. | :29:05. | |
totally disgusted. It does rankle arsenal. -- us all. There are some | :29:06. | :29:18. | |
out there, we need people to set the record straight, stem the current | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
tide of this, we seek to turn history around amongst cause of | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
pollution, seek to distract from the fact described in this case, a 16 | :29:29. | :29:35. | |
man and woman team planting a bomb to wreak as much death and | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
destruction is possible, the death of four men in their 20s and two | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
passer-by civilians who happen to be in a car at that time. They wanted | :29:44. | :29:51. | |
more blood, agony, heartache. They carried out more until they were | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
halted on the way of holding them was whenever Colin Marks's mass | :29:56. | :30:02. | |
murder, multiple monster that he is and was, was dispatched because he | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
carried out that attempt to kill even more police officers. This was | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
not a holy war, this was not freedom fighting, this was a wretched hatred | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
at work. This was not a noble cause, this was butchery, and as time has | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
moved on, we reiterate the call from those of us here and across the | :30:25. | :30:34. | |
Chamber, justice for these men, how frustrating it is to hear these | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
calls for justice for everyone else. I want justice, the party wants | :30:39. | :30:46. | |
justice, to ensure that those grave UDR men and those who wore the | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
uniform get justice as well. Would he accept that justice will never be | :30:53. | :31:03. | |
done if Sinn Fein and the IRA are allowed through the legacy process | :31:04. | :31:05. | |
to rewrite history, present themselves as freedom fighters who | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
had some just cause rather than terrorists who were simply out to | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
subvert the wishes of the people to remain part of the United Kingdom? | :31:14. | :31:21. | |
Absolutely. They tried to equate the two together. Those in uniform were | :31:22. | :31:30. | |
serving their queen and country to keep law and order. Those who wore | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
barrack lavas and skulk that night and pushed bombs, they are the | :31:37. | :31:44. | |
murderers. There is no comparison. We seek justice for everyone, | :31:45. | :31:52. | |
justice that will not simply be in the incarceration of every single | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
person involved in the bombing from the bomb makers to the clothes | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
washers, all 16 who did a task in relation to people. Justice must | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
also come through an end to historical fiction being presented | :32:06. | :32:17. | |
as fact. The team that was involved in the despatching of Colm Marx, | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
does he agree that they should receive medals for despatching one | :32:24. | :32:31. | |
of Ulster's worst criminals. That is exactly how I feel about it. The day | :32:32. | :32:39. | |
that evil, obnoxious, psychopathic multiple killer was put in the grave | :32:40. | :32:46. | |
was a day that the world was a better place. It would have been | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
bettered the day he was never born, down cause havoc, murder and mayhem | :32:52. | :33:07. | |
across the province. 27 years ago, an holy week, the most unholy act of | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
slaughter was carried out by men and women, some of whom are walking | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
around today instead of paying for their crimes. I sincerely ask every | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
person listening in this chamber or back at home to stop the | :33:23. | :33:28. | |
re-traumatised nation of the victims of the trouble by accepting these we | :33:29. | :33:39. | |
write. And I accept the honourable people who they so sacrificially | :33:40. | :33:49. | |
served. I take the time for others in this chamber tonight. We ask for | :33:50. | :33:56. | |
justice for those for young brave men and for their families who have | :33:57. | :34:04. | |
suffered every day from traumatised nation and the memory of losing | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
loved ones. All others in this house remember their bravery, their | :34:09. | :34:15. | |
coverage and their sacrifice. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. First of | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
all, I start by Congress jury to the honourable gentleman for securing | :34:22. | :34:28. | |
this important debate this evening. The member for Strangford, I know, | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
as has been mentioned is a former member of the UDR and the member of | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
Lagan Valley and Fermanagh, many people have been stepped up to be | :34:41. | :34:47. | |
leaders in Northern Ireland and have served gallantly in very troubled | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
times both in regular service to the UDR and the RUC. I just want to pay | :34:54. | :35:01. | |
my respects to that organisation. I think the member for Beckenham put | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
it absolutely right, we have huge respect for that as people, who, we | :35:08. | :35:17. | |
in the regular Army went home and went back to in my case Yorkshire, | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
he's from somewhere down south, I think. Cheshire. The point is, we | :35:23. | :35:31. | |
went back to our homes, to a safe place whereas I know lots of you and | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
lots of people who served in the UDR and RUC went back with that fear | :35:37. | :35:43. | |
still every moment of the day. I'd also like to express my condolences | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
and sympathies to the families and friends of the young soldiers who on | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
the 9th of April 1990 tragic the lost their lives in this horrendous | :35:53. | :35:58. | |
terrorist atrocity. It is evident that for many people the legacy of | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
Northern Ireland's past continues to be, continues to cast a very dark | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
shadow over the present. I am very conscious that in approaching this | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
is you we recognised that terrible loss suffered by so many people | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
during the troubles in Northern Ireland and in other parts of the | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
United Kingdom. Over the period of the trouble is, broadly speaking | :36:24. | :36:34. | |
from 1968 to 1998, around 3.5 -- around 3500 were killed, many in the | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
line of duty protecting the public and maintaining the rule of law. | :36:41. | :36:46. | |
Thousands were also maimed and injured jawing terrorist campaigns. | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
This government has always been clear that we, and this point was | :36:50. | :36:56. | |
made by several members, this government has always been clear | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
that we wholly reject any suggestion of some equivalence between the | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
security forces and those who carried out these terrorist | :37:07. | :37:08. | |
atrocities. Terrorism was and is wholly wrong. It was never and could | :37:09. | :37:16. | |
never be justified, from whichever side it came, Republican. No | :37:17. | :37:25. | |
injustices perceived or otherwise warranted the actions of the para | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
meant to -- paramilitary groups which caused the immense damage | :37:32. | :37:45. | |
whenever these atrocities were carried out. We need to look at | :37:46. | :37:52. | |
mental health and how best we get veterans access to these services. I | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
hope the other side of the general election we can make sure everybody | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
knows, who cares about those people, those veterans, that we make sure | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
we've got good access and are able to channel people to get the support | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
they deserve and need. As someone who has served in Northern Ireland, | :38:10. | :38:15. | |
and as a proud member of the Majesty 's Armed Forces, in the British | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
Army, I witnessed at first hand the remarkable dedication and courage | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
Armed Forces and officers of the Ulster Unionist Constabulary, sorry, | :38:26. | :38:32. | |
the Royal Ulster Constabulary performed during my time. Over 1000 | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
members of the curative forces lost their lives over the period of | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
operation, the longest continuous military deployment in this | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
country's history. And the issue of awards and medals was mentioned | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
earlier on, around 7000 awards for bravery were made and without the | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
dedication and self-sacrifice of the security forces to keep the people | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
of Northern Ireland safe and circumstances that enabled the peace | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
process to take root, take old would never have happened without the | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
gallant work of these people. As I've already alluded, dealing with | :39:14. | :39:22. | |
Northern Ireland's past is difficult and complex and many victims and | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
survivors who are today still suffering on the basis of the | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
results of the troubles and the way it impacted those individuals, it's | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
clear that the legacy institutions as they are currently setup are not | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
working for everyone and we have a victim to everyone to have a | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
comprehensive approach to provide a way forward for everyone. That is | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
why the government continues to believe that the Stormont house | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
institutions remain the best way forward for dealing with Northern | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
Ireland's past. I believe these proposals will make the situation | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
better for victims and survivors and is the best chance of prosecuting | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
terrorists for murdering police officers and soldiers along with | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
other victims. I believe the historical investigations unit, a | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
body proposed in the Stormont house agreement has a number of advantages | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
over current system in place in Northern Ireland. It will | :40:23. | :40:24. | |
investigate deaths in chronological order, taking each case in turn, it | :40:25. | :40:31. | |
will include in its investigation many hundreds of murders caused by | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
terrorists, including those of soldiers, this will include the | :40:36. | :40:42. | |
murders of the 18 soldiers at Warrenpoint in 1979, the largest | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
loss of life in the Army in any single incident in the troubles. | :40:47. | :40:54. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, it's estimated that without the form, the current | :40:55. | :41:01. | |
mechanisms, around 185 murders of soldiers will not be reinvestigated, | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
not to mention the many murders of RUC members. There will be a | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
statutory duty to act in a manner that is balanced, proportions, fair | :41:14. | :41:23. | |
and equitable. The HS you will be time limited with an aim to bring an | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
end to all of these investigations into the past within five years. | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
Just before I come to the conclusion, on the issue of the | :41:32. | :41:42. | |
honourable member for Strangford raises, it would be inappropriate | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
for me to comment but there is provision under the proposals that | :41:47. | :41:53. | |
where there is no evidence the right institutions go in pursuit of those | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
and get to the bottom and pursue the people responsible for it. What I | :41:58. | :42:04. | |
would say to the right honourable gentleman, where you have got | :42:05. | :42:07. | |
evidence, bring that forward and I would use all my officers to make | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
sure that evidence can be placed into the right hands to be dealt | :42:11. | :42:19. | |
with appropriately. By all means. Would he accept however that despite | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
all the words he has said that new evidence or new ways of interpreting | :42:25. | :42:31. | |
evidence is now being used as a means to carry out what many regard | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
as a witchhunt against members of the security forces who took out | :42:37. | :42:42. | |
people like Colm Marx and that's where the anger and the injustice | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
appears to be coming through in Northern Ireland and which is | :42:47. | :42:55. | |
re-traumatised and many of those who served in Northern Ireland and are | :42:56. | :43:03. | |
seeing themselves used as some pawn in a politically expedient game to | :43:04. | :43:06. | |
try and buy of Sinn Fein and get them back into government. Thank you | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
for the intervention. I just want to give you my reassurance that I think | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
the route I suggested will address that and give people confidence. It | :43:17. | :43:23. | |
is important, I say this as a former soldier myself, that I've played by | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
the rules. Many people played by the walls. Occasionally individuals make | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
mistakes and they need to be accountable for it. Because we were | :43:34. | :43:42. | |
part of the establishment we had rules of engagement, we believe in | :43:43. | :43:49. | |
the Geneva Convention, a whole set of rules, that's the difference | :43:50. | :43:55. | |
between our two. I look at and solve the veterans march a few weeks ago | :43:56. | :44:04. | |
and Doug Beattie was a guest speaker at that and many good points he put | :44:05. | :44:10. | |
in there and one of the key points he made was that if you break the | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
law, you should face the law. There was a man campaigning for that -- | :44:16. | :44:23. | |
for veterans but he recognises that those who have broken the law need | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
to be accountable regardless of which side. I agree totally with | :44:27. | :44:33. | |
that point but it is not the point that my colleague from East Antrim | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
made. In this particular case, the officer who dispatched Colm Marx has | :44:38. | :44:46. | |
been through three individual inquests. He was a friend of mine | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
growing up. He went through an ombudsman's inquest, there is now a | :44:52. | :45:00. | |
second inquest, on the basis of dodgy evidence that has been | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
produced. He will be dragged through that process again, his wife and | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
family will be traumatised by it and that is why I said he and his team | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
should have been given a medal that night. That should be the honour | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
that our state should be giving these people, not dragging them | :45:18. | :45:19. | |
through the process of constantly going through what they did. | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
I understand the passion with which the honourable gentleman talks | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
spotted a large balance and proportion in our response and the | :45:32. | :45:34. | |
state was in response to this. All means. Thank you. I thank the | :45:35. | :45:41. | |
Minister for giving way. I know he understands. There is a real worry, | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
as my honourable friends, who are really my friends on the other side | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
of the house, have said, is the proportionality of investigation | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
that Riaz. It is also the fact that many people who carry out crimes | :45:59. | :46:06. | |
seem to have -- worry us. Have their crimes blown out, blown away yet | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
soldiers, policemen and others who have carried out their duties using | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
the yellow card rules and under the role seem to have a fair and that | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
they will be a blot on their doors to drag them before a court. -- a | :46:23. | :46:30. | |
knock on their door. This is the worry that we have. -- fear. I know | :46:31. | :46:37. | |
the minister understand this because they have discussed it outside this | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
house, but this is the worry all the people sitting in this chamber at | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
the moment that our men and women who did everything right can't sleep | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
as well as others who did everything wrong. Can I thank my gallant friend | :46:54. | :47:02. | |
for his intervention and I think he's right with the fact it is that | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
I've been proportionate. I know he, as a man of justice, would know that | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
if someone does something wrong, they need to be accountable for it. | :47:12. | :47:17. | |
What is appropriate in this process, under the Stormont agreement, is | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
that we bring a model forward for those victims and survivors, and we | :47:23. | :47:25. | |
have a system which is right. I do appreciate the support from the | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
benches around this issue to bring this to conclusion and part of that | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
has got to be that we need a working mechanism of Government in Northern | :47:36. | :47:44. | |
Ireland where a devolved institution can work effectively and to bring | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
justice and bring some peace to the individuals. I want to conclude, I | :47:49. | :47:55. | |
have outlined the reasons why the Secretary of State recently | :47:56. | :47:57. | |
announced his intention to move to a public says. -- phase and why we | :47:58. | :48:06. | |
have engaged intensively with victim groups to move a full on the | :48:07. | :48:13. | |
outstanding issues. I believe this has the potential to build greater | :48:14. | :48:16. | |
confidence in the new bodies and resolve the remaining issues. It is | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
clear that the status quo is not working well for victims and | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
families, and it time progresses made. This will make sure our | :48:24. | :48:31. | |
veterans are not unfairly treated all district urgently investigated | :48:32. | :48:33. | |
and will reflect the fact that 90% of the deaths and troubles, any | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
troubles were caused by terrorists, and caused so much pain and | :48:40. | :48:45. | |
suffering. This Government remains distinct in its admiration of the | :48:46. | :48:51. | |
role of forces plays to ensure that Northern Ireland's future will be | :48:52. | :48:54. | |
forever divided by democracy and consent. We salute bays -- decided. | :48:55. | :49:00. | |
We salute soldiers for their sacrifices. I've responded to | :49:01. | :49:09. | |
several debates of this nature and I know it very difficult for the | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
people who put the debate forward. I think it's important for the | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
people... He's like about the horrors happening that day and have | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
to, and other honourable members have spoken about being respectful | :49:22. | :49:27. | |
to each other and working to gather any different place that is not the | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
9th of April 1990, what it is today. I don't, I went there two days. The | :49:33. | :49:42. | |
place it is the day is not the place it was before. The high school is an | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
amazing place full of bright young people. They're with me. To go and | :49:48. | :49:53. | |
visit the voluntary groups. -- stay with me. Can I thank the Minister | :49:54. | :50:01. | |
for giving way. As someone who was born, raised and educated in | :50:02. | :50:04. | |
Downpatrick, I can quite clearly say to the Minister that it was one of | :50:05. | :50:10. | |
the first councils back in 1973 that introduced and participated in a | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
power-sharing arrangement at local government level which the game | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
plying their arrangement for the rest of Northern Ireland. -- became | :50:20. | :50:28. | |
the pioneering. Having met the staph and the people who participate in | :50:29. | :50:35. | |
the projects of the Barry moat centre in the estate, that is very | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
much the view that I and others want to see the trade of Downpatrick at | :50:41. | :50:46. | |
an integrated place for a shared society. I don't want to get away | :50:47. | :50:53. | |
from the debate to day but it is important just to reiterate, and the | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
honourable lady is very right with the fact that there are people | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
across the community coming together and living in a peaceful, cohesive | :51:02. | :51:08. | |
place. There are always tension and pressure around but actually it is a | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
completely different place. During my visit, I want to finish on this | :51:12. | :51:17. | |
point, I went to Downpatrick police station because, at 2pm, PC Keith | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
Palmer was being buried, we were over there and we had a two-minute | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
silence for him at the Memorial within the police nation, of which | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
of course there are many, many people who lost their lives. We | :51:34. | :51:36. | |
should remember the people who will ask what we should also make sure | :51:37. | :51:43. | |
that Downpatrick is a beautiful place. -- groupware lost. That is | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
the future we should project. As well as rendering the people we have | :51:49. | :51:54. | |
lost. -- free member ring. The question is that the house do now | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
adjourn. As many of that opinion, say ayes? -- aye. The ayes have it. | :52:00. | :53:07. | |
We now come to the notion on the early parliamentary general election | :53:08. | :53:16. | |
to move the motion, I call the Prime Minister. Thank you, and I beg to | :53:17. | :53:24. | |
move the motion on the order paper in my name and that of my honourable | :53:25. | :53:27. | |
friends. That mission | :53:28. | :53:28. |