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understand the honourable gentleman has been campaigning on this issue | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
for some time. He cannot make bitterness because we are in purdah. | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
-- we cannot make commitments because BR in purdah. Thank you, Mr | :00:08. | :00:18. | |
Speaker. I seek your advice on parliamentary protocol in a member | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
of that into another member's constituents as part of a campaign. | :00:23. | :00:32. | |
Conservative brand of paper out of the camera cut it Castle Alexis. | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
Asking them to vote for the Conservative candidates. I know a | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
summit in her own constituency that have not received any such litter. | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
This is the second time that she has been campaigning for the | :00:49. | :00:56. | |
Conservative latte, using high status as a MP in my constituency | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
without informing. She is fully aware that in the British | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
parliamentary system one member represents a single constituency and | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
conventions have developed so that one in the's relations with her | :01:10. | :01:16. | |
constituents are preserved. I have had a number of complaints from | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
constituents, some of whom are now confused as to proved a member of | :01:20. | :01:27. | |
Parliament is. My constituency office is receiving phone calls from | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
constituents who think this must been the boundary changes have gone | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
through and may not probably Debra presented. As far as I'm concerned, | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
this is unacceptable. I'd be grateful for your comments and | :01:44. | :01:45. | |
advice on this serious matter. Hasn't it always been the case that | :01:46. | :01:58. | |
there is a member right on Conservative Party notepaper a | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
political message to anyone, that is in order. It is only if you are | :02:02. | :02:08. | |
representing yourself as an MP on a particular constituency using our | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
stations stationery that it as a problem. I would like to clarify | :02:13. | :02:25. | |
that the letters assigned... MP. We can and won't have a debate on the | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
matter. The honourable lady was courtesy and after giver her | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
intentions to raise this matter, for which I thank her. I'm attending to | :02:34. | :02:41. | |
the substance of what he says and to the remarks of the Minister. I must | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
say to her, that disquiet in Google experience may have been, and | :02:47. | :02:53. | |
relatively irregularly although it may occur, it is not clear to me | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
that the honourable member has broken any convention. It is not | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
clear to me. It is certainly at invention to notify any member of an | :03:05. | :03:12. | |
intention to visit Anna public capacity, it is also very well | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
established that a member should not purport to represent an offer to | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
represent people who are not hierarchies constituents. Writing, | :03:21. | :03:28. | |
however, and a campaigning context on party notepaper, though it may | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
not happen very frequently, is not, and have experience in these | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
the long-standing convention. What I the long-standing convention. What I | :03:40. | :03:41. | |
would like to say to the honourable lady because I tutor can send | :03:42. | :03:49. | |
seriously. I do appreciate the concern, but it does seem to me that | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
Carter sees between members of the House, which are important, at best | :03:54. | :04:00. | |
arrived at and adhered to by informal discussions between | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
colleagues. It is not desirable that they should ritually attempted to be | :04:04. | :04:12. | |
resolved by being raised on this floor of the House with each year. | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
That is to say, this is very clear, that is to say, they are not matters | :04:18. | :04:25. | |
of order, they are matters of an informal agreement and | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
understanding. It is much better between neighbouring colleagues if | :04:29. | :04:36. | |
such understandings can be reached. We believe it there for now. Members | :04:37. | :04:44. | |
are perfectly free to go if this wet. We a point of order. Question | :04:45. | :04:56. | |
should be answered in a timely and substantive manner. On the 24th of | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
manager I tabled a question asking how much the Government spent on | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
advertising and the Evening Standard newspaper in the last financial | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
year. Over a month later, I still haven't received a substantive | :05:16. | :05:17. | |
answer to the question. The Government announced they would | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
winding down without providing an answer. The public might draw an | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
occlusion may have something embarrassing they don't want to be | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
revealed during an election campaign. As anything the Speaker | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
can do to compel them to reveal matters like this? I appreciate his | :05:44. | :05:51. | |
concern. The content of ministers answers is not a matter for the | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
chair. That is matter is closed to play for the Minister giving a | :05:59. | :06:05. | |
response. However, I would like to repeat my repeated exhortation to | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
ministers to give timely and substantive responses, and excellent | :06:12. | :06:11. | |
teaching and might I am regularly teaching and might I am regularly | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
joined by the Leader of the House. Many ministers at at a premium to | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
add ceiling to that principle and expectation. I do agree that it is | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
unsatisfactory if the Government is unable to get a substantive answer | :06:28. | :06:36. | |
to a named the question tabled well before the date. No doubt the | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
concern articulate it has been heard on the Treasury bench. And so far as | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
seeks my advice, it is encapsulated seeks my advice, it is encapsulated | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
in one sentence. The honourable gentleman should seek to speak to | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
the Leader of the House, the member for Aylesbury, sooner rather than | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
later. LAUGHTER | :07:02. | :07:16. | |
No semicolon was required! I'm always grateful to the honourable | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
gentleman for his observations, even gentleman for his observations, even | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
when they are proffered in a disorderly manner from a sedentary | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
position. If there are no farther points of order. There is a point of | :07:31. | :07:44. | |
order. That is extremely kind of you Mr Speaker. This is from one of the | :07:45. | :07:51. | |
largest buying cooperatives in this country. I gave one of these ties to | :07:52. | :07:58. | |
the last Prime Minister hoping they would wear one,. With the Speaker | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
agree with me that the semicolon is a very ten thing and it should be | :08:04. | :08:14. | |
used more often? I agree. The honourable gentleman as an authority | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
on the matter and on a number of other matters relating to language | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
and syntax. We will leave it there for now. If there are no points of | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
order. We come now to the ten minute rule motion. I beg to move that lead | :08:29. | :08:37. | |
be given to bring and a bill to require the Financial Conduct | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
Authority to make rules restricted charges for an offer drives | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
overdrafts in certain circumstances and for certain purposes. I want to | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
begin by urging all parties to include in that election manifesto a | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
commitment to capping charges on these unauthorised overdraft. | :08:58. | :08:59. | |
Following great work by my honourable friend, the member from | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
Walthamstow, huge progress has been made on the charges faced by people | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
who access finance to payday loans with the introduction of a cap. | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
Mandated by the financial services in 2013, the SCA have introduced a | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
cat sitter 24p per month for anyone borrowing 100 pounds for 30 days. | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
Millions of people are struggling with spiralling debts and | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
overdrafts. They deserve to be protected from excessive charges and | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
practices that only make the situation worse. We have seen from | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
the payday loan cap that this can be achieved. Legislation would allow | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
the Financial Conduct Authority to implement a gap without delay, and | :09:42. | :09:44. | |
with out the risk that the banks would also delay. Imagine you are | :09:45. | :09:51. | |
?200 overdrawn. It is not great, but since you have an arranged | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
overdraft, you will not incur charges. It will not cost you | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
anything except for the entrance. Then I direct debit was to MPs into | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
an unauthorised overdraft. Unless you can quickly pay money into your | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
account, you will quickly start to rack up charges. Going as little as | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
?10 overdrawn can mean charges of ?5 per day from your high street bank. | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
Research published in February found that customers needing to borrow as | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
little as ?100 could be charged up to seven times more, ?156, by some | :10:24. | :10:31. | |
major high street banks. The Financial Conduct Authority allows | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
payday loan companies to charge more. Bank overdraft charges only | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
apply to monthly charges. Consumers who need to borrow ?100 could pay up | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
to ?180 in fees if they borrow over two months from the high street bank | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
in the form of an unauthorised overdraft. The same applies if the | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
goods just a few pence over the overdraft limit. These charges are | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
totally disproportionate to the offence committed. Last year, banks | :11:01. | :11:08. | |
made ?1.2 billion from charges an unauthorised overdraft, mostly from | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
financially vulnerable customers. These are customers that banks | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
should be helping, not pitting farther into the red. These are | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
Markets Authority have labelled in Markets Authority have labelled in | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
the report as a captive audience for the banks and the high charges. They | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
have described unauthorised overdraft as the biggest single | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
problem in the personal banking market. Action needs to be taken. | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
The charity estimates that 1.7 million people in the UK are trapped | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
in an overdraft cycle, and consistently use overdraft to meet | :11:43. | :11:43. | |
essential as well as emergency cost. essential as well as emergency cost. | :11:44. | :11:51. | |
Too many vulnerable people who are already struggling regular have to | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
go into an overdraft or over and overdraft limit have the | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
difficulties exacerbated. Many families live constantly and that | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
overdrafts. This is impossible choices between meeting because of | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
essential bells are going farther over their limit. As these build-up, | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
families find it increasingly hard to get out of the date the. Last | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
year, stepped inside with their clients with overdraft debt to | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
explore their experiences. It found that people regular go over their | :12:28. | :12:34. | |
overdraft limit. 62% of the people that the charity helped | :12:35. | :12:36. | |
overdraft let, regularly exceed the overdraft let, regularly exceed the | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
limit as it struggled to make ends meet. These borrowers face average | :12:41. | :12:47. | |
charges of ?45 per month was slipping into an authorised | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
overdraft. This adds up to a massive ?225 per year of unauthorised | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
overdraft charges, and for many people, the charges are much higher | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
than that. The charity has told me of two cases of vulnerable people | :13:03. | :13:11. | |
being placed into debt by the banks. If 42-year-old man racked up | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
overdraft charges after losing his job. And dressed men that on | :13:15. | :13:23. | |
average, 80p per was added to his debt -- ?80 per month. The second | :13:24. | :13:31. | |
case was a 38 killed women, who faced by the overdraft debt. -- a | :13:32. | :13:41. | |
38-year-old woman. She slipped into an unplanned overdraft buying just | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
?90. That led to a cycle in which was consistently and and out of | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
unauthorised overdrafts. Heart overdraft increased by ?1000 due to | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
lose interest charges. These people, like so many others, were already in | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
difficulty and trying to manage their debts from day to day. | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
Overdraft out amongst the most widely used credit products in the | :14:06. | :14:08. | |
market, and form part of a worrying trend in our economy. Saving ratio | :14:09. | :14:16. | |
as a nation is at record low. Our household debt ratio is at 145%, up | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
6% in the past year. Unsecured debt has grown by 10% in just 12 months. | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
I am worried about the sustainability of our personal | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
finances, and are to murder man to heavily reliant on debt and personal | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
borrowing. The Government need to do more to insure our economy is not | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
built on the shallow foundations of debt at overdraft, but instead is | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
built on investment and secure and decently paid jobs. Rising debt is | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
symptomatic of a wider problem in our economy. Reflected and growth | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
levels and in rising levels of inequality. We need an economy that | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
works for the many and not just for the few, and the banking sector that | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
does the same. Last year, the FA Vase markets authority published a | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
review which disappointingly fell fell short of introducing a cap. | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
Instead, the Port said that banks would be required to set their own | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
ceilings on charges in the form of a monthly maximum charge. However, | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
most banks already have that. It might be 5p per day are 90p per | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
month. The problem is that we need a lower cap set by directly letters | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
are not individually by the banks. They monthly maximum as proposed by | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
the authority will do absolutely nothing to stop the deepening of the | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
persons debt crisis. Banks should not punish people with | :15:48. | :15:54. | |
disproportionate charges. Competition in this sector of the | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
years has got weaker still with the years has got weaker still with the | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
merger of our many high street banks. The recent travels of the | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
Co-op bank, which is lower charges than many good entries problems. | :16:07. | :16:14. | |
Every overdraft users are the least like despite bank account. Given the | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
there is little incentive for them there is little incentive for them | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
want to deny the banks of the right want to deny the banks of the right | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
to charge for their services, but there should be fairness and | :16:30. | :16:30. | |
proportionality. In fact, the impact opposite is the | :16:31. | :16:43. | |
case. Most of us, Mr Speaker, regard banks as more reputable and fathom | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
payday lenders, so it is a bitter irony, a better deal for this... To | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
go to a payday lender then their high street bank. Banks need to | :16:54. | :16:56. | |
improve their behaviour, and I urge them to step in and their customers. | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
. After this year may passion the buck to the authority, the FCA as | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
may be welcome decision to include this issue in its welcome review | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
into high cost credit which will report later this year. But neither | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
take action, the FCA would benefit from a mandate from Parliament, so I | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
urge them to support this bill and make the changes a reality to help | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
the customers being ripped off by their banks. This cannot continue. | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
The question is that the honourable member have leave to bring in the | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
Bill. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
think temp macro one has it. Stephen Hammond, Sir David Amis, and | :17:41. | :17:52. | |
George Carrigan and myself. Unauthorised Overdrafts (Cost of | :17:53. | :18:36. | |
Credit). Friday the 12th of May. Thank you. Order, the clerk will now | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
proceed to read the orders of the day. Finance (No. 2) Bill. Order. | :18:43. | :19:02. | |
Order Finance (No. 2) Bill. We begin with... Relating to more than one | :19:03. | :19:13. | |
tax with the question that clause one standard part of the Bill with | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
which it will be convenient to consider the causes, schedules and | :19:19. | :19:21. | |
amendments listed on the selection paper. Thank you very much, Mr | :19:22. | :19:29. | |
Chairman. I will speak briefly to this first group in today as we have | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
a lot to get through this afternoon. Obviously I will attempt to address | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
any points during the debate. I should start by noting the changes | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
to the Bill members will have observed. The Finance Bill is | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
proceeding on the basis of consensus and the request of the opposition, | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
we are not proceeding with a number of causes in this bill as we know | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
with policy change, this could make a contribution to the public | :19:57. | :20:03. | |
finances and the Government will... I should note the Government remains | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
committed to the digital future of the tax system, Prince poll widely | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
accepted across the House. The Government recognises the need for | :20:12. | :20:19. | |
proper measures as... Why the Government has pursued this measure | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
in the next parliament in light on the pressures of time it is now | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
applied. Mr Chairman, clauses one and three provide for the annual | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
charging of income tax in the current financial year and maintain | :20:35. | :20:36. | |
the basic higher and additional rates at the current level. The | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
annual charge legislated for in the Finance Bill is essential for its | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
continued collection and well enabled the funding of vital public | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
services in the coming year. Painting in the rates including the | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
tax-free personal allowance and the point where people pay the higher | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
rate of tax means we are showing important manifesto commitments. | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
This year, increases to the personal allowances will put a basic rate | :21:05. | :21:15. | |
income tax bill by over ?1000. Class four maintains a starting rate limit | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
for savings and can apply to the savings of those with lower earnings | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
at its current level of ?5,000, tenth 2017 tax year. Clauses are 17 | :21:25. | :21:32. | |
and 18 both make changes to the taxation of pensions with 18 | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
legislating for a significant measure announced at the spring | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
budget, it makes changes to ensure pension transfers to recognise a | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
busy pension schemes after the 9th of March 2017 will be taxable, the | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
charge will not apply if both the individual and the pension savings | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
are in the same country both within the European economic area are the | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
scheme is provided by the individual's employer. Before the | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
changes were announced in the spring budget, someone retiring abroad but | :22:06. | :22:14. | |
not face a charge to anywhere in the world providing it met certain | :22:15. | :22:17. | |
requirements. Oversee pension transfers have become incredibly | :22:18. | :22:25. | |
marketed in way of gaining unfair tax advantaged an pension savings. | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
This is contrary to the policy rationale for allowing transfer | :22:30. | :22:36. | |
of... Discharge deters those seeking to gain tax advantages by | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
transferring the pensions abroad, stopping those genuinely needing to | :22:44. | :22:54. | |
transfer being able to do so. To make a more consistent taxation of | :22:55. | :23:01. | |
domestic pensions. Plus 21, simplifies the payment of | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
distributions by some type of investment fund with the | :23:05. | :23:06. | |
introduction of the personal saving allowance of 98% of... In line with | :23:07. | :23:14. | |
this, the clause removes requirement to deduct tax at source, which then | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
later needs to be re-claimed by the saver. Turning to clauses 45 to 47, | :23:21. | :23:27. | |
the final ones in this grouping, these provide for the removal of the | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
tax advantages of the employee shareholder status for arrangements | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
entered in after the 1st of December 20 16. This is in response to | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
evidence suggesting the status was not used as intended by companies | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
and was not delivering value for money. This status was introduced to | :23:45. | :23:51. | |
give workplace flexible D2 creates a new class of employee as members | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
might aware, but it has come apparent the status was used as a | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
tax planning device rather than for the intended purpose of helping | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
businesses to recruit. Evidence shows companies, particularly when | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
by private equity funds, we using shareholder status as the tax | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
efficient ways of rewarding hires stuff. -- hire staff. This continued | :24:14. | :24:22. | |
to be the case despite the introduction of the lifetime limit | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
on capital gains tax. The Government therefore announced in the Autumn | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
Statement 2016 that it would remove the tax relief associated with the | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
to new arrangements at the next to new arrangements at the next | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
legislative opportunity. The action we are taking in this Finance Bill | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
tackles abuse and the fairness of the tax system. I therefore move | :24:48. | :24:54. | |
that these clauses and associates schedules stand part of the Bill. | :24:55. | :25:02. | |
Thank you, Mr chav. I would like to thank the Minister for the which I | :25:03. | :25:13. | |
fully concur with. For some weeks, my colleagues and everybody have | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
been preparing for this. With a view to having a number of public bill | :25:17. | :25:22. | |
committee sessions spanning over a number of weeks to properly | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
scrutinise the Finance Bill. This has been the context of my comments. | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
The Prime Minister's announcement at number ten and the subscribed vote | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
backs succeeded means we do not have since sufficient time to give the | :25:37. | :25:43. | |
full bill the time it deserves and ensure many members will appreciate | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
that. It is clear that the pressure without we're under with the snap | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
election, otherwise they would not introduce the longest Finance Bill. | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
That being said, the opposition recognises the scenario wherein | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
anti-government's was hostility to levy taxes. That is why we have | :26:00. | :26:09. | |
acted in good faith to ensure an version of the Bill can be passed | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
before Parliament is dissolved. On our approach to the pre-election | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
process and the presentation of the condensed version. The question of | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
fiscal responsibility and balanced against Parliamentary scrutiny is an | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
issue. There is a responsibility to ensure taxpayers there is little | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
disruption as possible and we will not attempt to block anything in | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
this bill. There have been levy is to allow business as usual for | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
companies. Nor will we obstruct tax in the process of collection. But we | :26:43. | :26:49. | |
cannot give in the Government a white card on this, we have made | :26:50. | :26:56. | |
that clear. There are things that should wait until after the general | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
election to allow them to be properly scrutinised. One example is | :27:00. | :27:06. | |
the soft drinks levy. The Finance Bill before Rose shows what has read | :27:07. | :27:14. | |
being implemented. This is includes the decision to raise alcohol duty | :27:15. | :27:23. | |
in line of inflation. As I said in my speech at the second reading, | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
writing business rates and inflation is putting a perfect storm for small | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
businesses, and therefore the decision to rise this duty is | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
something of a risk. In relation to insurance premium tax, another | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
measure we would like to avoid, but is included, that this bill is going | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
through is the rise. It has already been doubled and the... If there was | :27:49. | :27:55. | |
a longer process, we would have sought to challenge this, so there | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
is no surprise in that one. The measure is already in effect due to | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
the resolutions. With tax avoidance, it is time for a wholesale shift in | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
how we approach this given the economy in recent years. It | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
initially contained initiatives and we will come back to these in due | :28:14. | :28:24. | |
course. Mr chair, utilisation of tax, we will come back to | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
digitisation of tax. It will come as a sigh of relief to many small | :28:31. | :28:39. | |
businesses. No one is against the digitalisation of the tax system, | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
but we do not agree with the rush to implement it. In relation to the | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
soft drinks levy, a large portion of this has been consulted on heavily | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
in Government with cross-party support. The soft drinks levy | :28:54. | :29:01. | |
industry is popular with the public and a poll indicated it did have | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
huge amounts of support. I want to take the opportunity to pay tribute | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
to Jamie Oliver and the obesity Alliance who has campaigned on this | :29:11. | :29:17. | |
and in obesity strategy. I must compliment the Minister in her | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
current and previous roles as a strong advocate of this. We would | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
like to see, if possible, a review of that particular sugar tax levy in | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
due course, I'm sure the Minister may wish to comment on that. I'm | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
sure there will be a whole range of issues in terms of multi-byte | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
discounts on unhealthy foods. That could be part of that. In | :29:42. | :29:44. | |
conclusion, as a responsible opposition. We will not stand in the | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
way of passing this before the election, there are some measures | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
that a Labour Government would bring back and we will have the | :29:55. | :29:57. | |
opportunity to scrutinise those in due course. As far as we are | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
concerned, we need to get this through, we need to be responsible | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
and we will support the Government web that responsibility is | :30:06. | :30:12. | |
required,. Could I say to the House, I'm going to bring in the member of | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
Copland. Can we remember courtesies. We do not intervene on the main | :30:19. | :30:31. | |
speech. Trudy Harrison. Thank you, Mr Hoyle, for the opportunity to | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
deliver my maiden speech as the newly elected member of Parliament | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
for Copland. This may be one of the last debates of this Parliament. I | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
would like to pay tribute to my predecessor Jamie Reid who was the | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
member for Copland from 2005 until he stood down in January this year. | :30:51. | :30:57. | |
It is Jamie who I have two thanks for introducing me to politics. The | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
very first Parliamentary debate I ever watched was a Westminster Hall | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
debate called upon by Jamie and also attended by other Cumbrian members. | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
My own rubble friends for Penrith and the Borders. This was to | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
discover the future of my children's school. | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
I saw the positive impact MPs could have in their local communities, and | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
the powerful influence support could break even and at areas, which I had | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
previously felt would never be anyone's political priority. Like | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
me, Jamie was born, raised and educated in coupling. In the fine | :31:38. | :31:45. | |
Georgian tanks and CROWD: Georgian town of Whitehaven. He worked hard | :31:46. | :31:54. | |
for rural communities. He placed a strong emphasis on improving health | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
and education. And announcing his decision to stand down last | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
December, he said he could achieve more for our community by returning | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
to work within the nuclear industry at Sellafield rather than remaining | :32:06. | :32:12. | |
a Labour member of Parliament. Jamie was a relentless, proud supporter of | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
our local and district. He championed the world-class | :32:18. | :32:19. | |
specialists kills that major towns and villages. He worked hard to make | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
the case for coupling to host a new nuclear power station adjacent to | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
Sellafield. He it was based on the strong belief that our workforce is | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
best placed to power the northern powerhouse. After all, Copeland | :32:35. | :32:43. | |
welcomed the world's first nuclear reactor in 1950. A local knowledge | :32:44. | :32:51. | |
within the nuclear industry is internationally recognised and | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
respected. Sellafield's safety record is exceptional, and an | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
example of outstanding performance across the globe. Jamie said, | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
Copeland's this days are ahead. I agree with this statement and have | :33:06. | :33:12. | |
courted it many times! I would like to take this opportunity to thank | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
Jimmy for his commitment, and wish him all the best and his new role. | :33:17. | :33:25. | |
Copeland has for centuries pioneered a modern industrial strategy. Our | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
largest town, Whitehaven, was once Britain's largest trading port with | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
an extraordinary shipbuilding reputation thanks to the locally | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
grown oak trees used to build a boat. An ancestor sailed the world | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
securing deals, returning with goods which created racial global trading | :33:46. | :33:53. | |
centre. Perhaps that is why we voted to leave the EU with such a high | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
majority, because Hatherley provides confidence in our ability to export | :33:58. | :34:00. | |
our knowledge and products across the globe. Like Pioneers, B don't | :34:01. | :34:07. | |
veins. As ship sales decline, we dug veins. As ship sales decline, we dug | :34:08. | :34:16. | |
deeper prosperity. Mining transformed the towns in our area. | :34:17. | :34:30. | |
We are perhaps best known in Cumbria for a delightful little rabbits. | :34:31. | :34:41. | |
Peter Rabbit. And his friends. Two named just one of beauty spot of, | :34:42. | :34:50. | |
adorable characters. Artists and poets have found inspiration in the | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
beautiful Cumbrian countryside. Once both themselves were sent under | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
doctor 's orders to my home village of little to aid his recovery from a | :34:59. | :35:07. | |
chest infection. With 32 miles of coastline, Diana and our landscape | :35:08. | :35:15. | |
is good for the soul. We are situated in the Lake District | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
natural park boundary, which I really do hope will become the | :35:19. | :35:25. | |
second world Heritage site of Copeland, complementing Hadrian 's | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
Wall. We eagerly await a decision in July to confirm another world first, | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
the first UNESCO world Heritage site to include an entire national park | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
thanks to a 20 year project by the Lake District National Park | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
authority and local communities pitting Cumbria and the same | :35:45. | :35:47. | |
international platform as it Tasman international platform as it Tasman | :35:48. | :35:55. | |
Halle and the Great Barrier Reef. Where I was brought up I would open | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
Mike curtains in the morning to reveal Britain's best view of | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
angling's highest mountain. Well before swimming was trendy, I would | :36:06. | :36:12. | |
slam and England's deepest lake. It is easy to see why this was the last | :36:13. | :36:19. | |
place of mountaineering, and by the local markets town enjoy such | :36:20. | :36:27. | |
popularity with this festival. Whilst the... Our landscape and | :36:28. | :36:42. | |
cultural heritage is of course man-made. It is vitally important to | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
industry. Both are planned and industry. Both are planned and | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
lowland to ensure we can all benefit from the quality food production, | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
the highest standards of Anna from welfare, -- animal welfare on which | :36:57. | :37:03. | |
Copeland is so dependent. I could not get my maiden speech without | :37:04. | :37:06. | |
thanking and acknowledging that I would not be standing in this House | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
today if it were not for the fantastic and unwavering support of | :37:11. | :37:18. | |
my family, friends, Jean Unity. My husband, my parents, brother and | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
daughters, Gabrielle, Savannah, Francisco and rosemary. They have | :37:25. | :37:33. | |
been incredible towers of strength. From the moment I decided to stand, | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
campaigning, delivering leaflets and campaigning, delivering leaflets and | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
knocking on doors. My girls have become persuasive activist. It has | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
become wonderful to see their interest in politics growing. Having | :37:47. | :37:54. | |
for teenage daughters, I was also delighted to accept the balance of | :37:55. | :38:02. | |
female MPs to 456. Equalling their balance between all of her sleep's | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
well members and the current number of male members. Though there was a | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
change of reference NI Mother's Day cards this year. Gone were the | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
thanks for the practical tasks of washing, cooking and cleaning, and | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
generally being there, each one instead revert to a theoretical | :38:23. | :38:25. | |
role, referencing and relation and pride. That is what a by-election | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
does to family life. You can only imagine their comments about another | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
round of doorstep challenges! LAUGHTER | :38:35. | :38:43. | |
It is, after all, our children and young people that now in securing a | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
bright future for Britain and inspiring the next generation's | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
leaders. I was Theresa May's speech at the Conservative conference last | :38:53. | :38:54. | |
year, and the Conservative conference last year, and was so | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
commitment to deliver for Great commitment to deliver for Great | :38:58. | :38:59. | |
Britain, and impressions for our country resonated with my own. I | :39:00. | :39:06. | |
said to myself, that is me, that is what I want for my community. I | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
stood because I want to get on and stood because I want to get on and | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
make things happen. I want to be part of a proactive, positive team | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
that makes tremendous difference to my community, the land of Copeland | :39:20. | :39:28. | |
glory. My husband and I moved from Whitehaven to belittle, a small | :39:29. | :39:36. | |
village in the south to raise and young family. We wanted our girls to | :39:37. | :39:46. | |
attend a small primary, and we found a perfect one. In 2000 insects, I | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
discovered their skill was really struggling to make ends meet. It | :39:51. | :39:58. | |
desperately needed extra funding. . The problem was I declining numbers. | :39:59. | :40:11. | |
I realise the whole town was declining. I realise the challenge | :40:12. | :40:19. | |
was far more extensive. Copeland desperately requires investment, an | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
infrastructure to be able to thrive. Both professionally, working for the | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
Council, and personally, working with the community, I want to ship | :40:30. | :40:39. | |
policy, and help our community become the key to our future. We | :40:40. | :40:46. | |
want to ship the strategic vision from Bootle. It will become the | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
beacon of hope for other Ronald Koeman it is. We worked hard to | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
secure the Lake District National Park application. Well bank will | :40:56. | :41:04. | |
bring 50 homes, ever tell, enterprise areas, and will attract | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
public and private investment. In total, for Bootle, that'll mean an | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
extra 61 homes, new businesses, and when complete, ?29 of and when | :41:16. | :41:17. | |
complete, ?29 of annual investment. I stood in the Copeland by election | :41:18. | :41:25. | |
to make a success of the new strategy, to be an asset to the | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
northern powerhouse, and to realise our potential to be a global | :41:32. | :41:34. | |
exporter of knowledge and products. But Copeland needs investment. I | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
know that as a pioneering, know that as a pioneering, | :41:38. | :41:40. | |
hard-working, and a bit of hard-working, and a bit of | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
community, we can succeeds with Government support. We have the | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
potential, the natural resources, and the landscape were people love | :41:52. | :41:57. | |
to love, love, and invest. We have every reason to be optimistic we | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
will be an asset to the country. Copeland 's is on the brink of | :42:02. | :42:03. | |
most exciting, game changing most exciting, game changing | :42:04. | :42:11. | |
transition. But we need investment to kick-start it. I campaigned on | :42:12. | :42:18. | |
sex vital points. -- seeks vital points. I wanted to make a success | :42:19. | :42:28. | |
of Brexit. I wanted secure new building to attract international | :42:29. | :42:38. | |
investment. Our Government must commit two new nuclear. An | :42:39. | :42:46. | |
infrastructure is holding back our ability to diversify and thigh. | :42:47. | :42:53. | |
Building resilience against poverty, which wrecks lives and livelihoods | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
is also essential. Access is a key enabler, particular NI rule area. If | :43:00. | :43:06. | |
you really are to compete in a global marketplace. Including mobile | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
and connectivity will make a huge difference to our ability to do | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
business on a global market and to ensure a bright future for our young | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
people. The announcement and the spring budget supporting an enormous | :43:21. | :43:22. | |
increase in technical apprenticeships is wonderful news. | :43:23. | :43:30. | |
To secure services, west, in hospital and Whitehaven, ensuring | :43:31. | :43:38. | |
that we keep our 24-hour, seven day a week, consultant led maternity has | :43:39. | :43:39. | |
been one of my aims to write my been one of my aims to write my | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
election campaign and as a member of Parliament. I was born at that | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
hospital, and all for my daughters were too. My community has | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
demonstrated very clearly the importance of maintaining such an | :43:53. | :44:00. | |
essential service. I have been able to meet with the Secretary of State | :44:01. | :44:03. | |
for Health and have visited the hospital to seek new wards, and to | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
meet the staff to understand the barriers are having a fully | :44:11. | :44:12. | |
operational departments in the future. We now have a fully staffed | :44:13. | :44:19. | |
maternity departments. The trust has been removed from special measures, | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
already invested by this Government, already invested by this Government, | :44:24. | :44:29. | |
we have the funding secured for the final phase of the hospital's | :44:30. | :44:38. | |
construction. Supporting a for the recruitment drive is my priority. | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
Positive action, listening to concerns, tackle problems head-on, | :44:43. | :44:45. | |
working with our community who really care as for many years been | :44:46. | :44:52. | |
my mantra. I will continue to strive enthusiastically forward because I | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
believe passionately in Copeland. Its people and its potential. | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
Tanning to today's debate on the Finance Bill, I have seen that this | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
Government as they only Government that can deliver a stronger, more | :45:06. | :45:12. | |
secure economy. The economy is indeed getting stronger, and | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
growing. Employment rates are at record highs and the deficit has | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
been reduced in honestly sends its brief financial crisis peaked. We | :45:22. | :45:28. | |
are in a much stronger position than 2010, but I recognise that you must | :45:29. | :45:31. | |
not become complacent, we must continue to reduce the country's | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
debt and the deficit even farther. We cannot, as previous Labour | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
governments have done, borrow endlessly to sell holes. We need to | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
get the public finances in good order to safeguard our future, the | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
future I want from my daughters and their generation. Finally, Copeland | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
has been my home since I was born. It is an area I know and love. The | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
opportunity to represent the community is I grew up in as a | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
member of Parliament is truly a great honour, and I will ensure that | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
our towns and rural communities voice is heard loud and clear. I'm | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
utterly committed to fighting hard to deliver on promises made to my | :46:20. | :46:27. | |
constituent during the election. I am extremely grateful for the time | :46:28. | :46:30. | |
you have allowed and for the opportunity to deliver my maiden | :46:31. | :46:31. | |
speech in this debate. Can I just say to the parable lady, | :46:32. | :46:44. | |
can I offer for her to join the rugby league group? Thank you very | :46:45. | :46:51. | |
much Mr Deputy Speaker. Can I take the opportunity warmly welcome the | :46:52. | :46:59. | |
new member of Copland. I am particularly pleased we have finally | :47:00. | :47:02. | |
broken that Barry of the number of women being elected, I am delighted | :47:03. | :47:09. | |
that has happened. As a child, I holidayed in her constituency and | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
visited where Beatrix Potter crated the animals and the Museum and I | :47:15. | :47:17. | |
remember it very fondly and I'm can see the passion she can speak with | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
her constituency and the man she cares about the area, truly local | :47:23. | :47:29. | |
MP, so a huge welcome to the House, who knows if we will see you act... | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
Who knows if we will be back in June! In terms of turning back to | :47:35. | :47:41. | |
the first grouping we have today, specifically around income tax and | :47:42. | :47:48. | |
more generally, on the way this bill is progressing in Parliament. | :47:49. | :47:57. | |
Obviously with the surprise announcement of a general election, | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
this Finance (No. 2) Bill 's far different from what it was to look | :48:01. | :48:07. | |
before it was brought to the House. I am sure the ministers are in a | :48:08. | :48:14. | |
similar position, we only received provisional notification last night | :48:15. | :48:23. | |
to changes, so there is not going to be the level of scrutiny over some | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
of the things, but there will also be a slight level of confusion in | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
the proceedings today given the fact that have been so many things | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
withdrawn. I wanted to to welcome the Government withdrawing the | :48:36. | :48:43. | |
dividend tax rate threshold change. That is something we argued against | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
in second reading and something we have spoken about and how later to | :48:48. | :48:50. | |
the Government and I am pleased they have chosen to do that today given | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
that was a particularly contentious part of what was put forward. A | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
couple of more general things around income tax and the changes, I said | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
previously, and I am quite happy to state again, I appreciate the | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
increases the Government has made to personal allowance and the increases | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
to the minimum wage. I have said before, and I will say again, I do | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
not think these go far enough, we do not have... We have a national | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
living wage, but there is no calculation on whether people can | :49:23. | :49:29. | |
live on this. Thank you very much for the points. The national living | :49:30. | :49:32. | |
wage is not actually a real living wage, it is... It is not go far | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
enough and is only available for people over the age of 25. I agree | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
with my colleague in Glasgow on that. I think it is a problem that | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
this increase on the minimum wage is not applied to under 25 's. It's | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
because you are under 25 does not mean you are doing less of a job | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
then anyone who is over 25 and they should be just as applicable to get | :49:57. | :50:01. | |
the minimum wage as those who are older. The only issue is with the | :50:02. | :50:08. | |
tax credit changes more than balance out the amount of people I | :50:09. | :50:16. | |
getting... People are at the bottom getting... People are at the bottom | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
of the pile and worse off due to this. I think despite the fact the | :50:21. | :50:29. | |
Government can't stand to talk about the facts about how great this is, | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
how great this is, and when people are working our worse off as a | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
result of tax credit changes. One more general thing around taxation, | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
the Government has made a view suggestions and some have been | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
withdrawn and some not, around the taxation of self-employment. The | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
Government is intending to try and equalise employment and | :50:57. | :50:59. | |
self-employment and the taxation levels that people face in those two | :51:00. | :51:02. | |
situations. However the thing that is missing from this is people who | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
are in self implement to not get the same benefits as those in | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
deployment. No maternity leave, holiday entitlement to lament, they | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
do not get those things. I will argue that if the Government is | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
making changes to self-employment, it needs to do so in the ground. It | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
needs to stop tinkering and look at the whole situation, it needs to do | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
a proper review and it needs to come back with the results of the review | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
and consult on any changes to make, rather than... For example, changes | :51:36. | :51:44. | |
with little pre-consultation being with little pre-consultation being | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
done, it needs to properly consult how taxation should look for | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
individuals whether they are employed or self-employed. I am not | :51:53. | :52:00. | |
sure that the terror review goes far enough. I would like to see the | :52:01. | :52:07. | |
Taylor review take into account self-employment in the round and | :52:08. | :52:10. | |
take in all of the factors that says those who are self-employed. We need | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
to remember, Mr Deputy Speaker, the changes that have been in the self | :52:17. | :52:19. | |
employed landscape in recent years. We have seen an increase in women | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
unemployed, we have seen a massive increase in older people who are in | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
self-employment and I think the changes the Government are making | :52:28. | :52:32. | |
does not take in to account changes in the landscape. I would like to | :52:33. | :52:35. | |
see this as a whole thing rather than a tinkering thing. In terms of | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
this grouping, Mr Deputy Speaker, that was pretty much all I had to | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
say, Pat to welcome the withdrawal of the dividend tax threshold | :52:46. | :52:53. | |
changes. Thank you Mr Chairman. Can I also congratulate the Honourable | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
member for probe on a fine maiden speech and thank her for her | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
well-deserved condiments to her predecessor and the said as he did. | :53:04. | :53:09. | |
She spoke with passion and understanding of her beautiful | :53:10. | :53:12. | |
constituency, as well as Peter Rabbit. I don't think any of us here | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
will envy her, this speedy transition from by-election to | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
general election. I congratulate her. I made my own maiden speech to | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
this house on the remaining stages of the 1987 Finance Bill, so there | :53:26. | :53:31. | |
is a certain symmetry in my making my last remarks on this one. On the | :53:32. | :53:37. | |
substance of the Bill, it is too often overlooked, this was talking | :53:38. | :53:45. | |
about a bouncing public spending, but whilst it is often talked about | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
balancing the budget, the last Government to do so was Labour in | :53:50. | :53:56. | |
2001, 2000 two. Right now it makes sense to invest more in | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
infrastructure, training and public services with action to come back | :54:02. | :54:06. | |
poverty and secure Brexit determines which enable our country to grow and | :54:07. | :54:13. | |
our country to flourish. I wish we had a Finance Bill the social | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
justice, standing up for the many, not the few. And that is what we | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
need a Labour Government for. It has been a privilege to be an MP in and | :54:25. | :54:32. | |
out of Government, and I thank the staff of the House, the library, | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
those whose keep hope us safe, and I'm grateful to all colleagues and | :54:38. | :54:46. | |
wish them well for the future. A huge thank you to all who have | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
helped me surfer 30 years for the wonderful constituency of Oxford | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
East, my family and friends, my neighbours, our party members and | :54:57. | :55:03. | |
supporters, my trade union members, my office staff and party organisers | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
across the years. Most of all, my constituents. Thank you. Can I wish | :55:08. | :55:16. | |
you well. Can I also thank the members for Copeland for such a | :55:17. | :55:22. | |
passionate and entertaining speech. It is good to have a representative | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
of the land of Beatrix Potter here in this chamber. I will be slightly | :55:27. | :55:32. | |
wicked and say I listened very carefully to her last point about | :55:33. | :55:38. | |
the Government and the deficit and that the Government was bringing the | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
deficit down. I'm sure she knows that there is a forecast in rise in | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
Government bothering this financial year and she may wish to ask why. | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
One question for the Minister in this grouping of questions, in the | :55:52. | :55:58. | |
minister's introduction, she notably failed white clause five has been | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
withdrawn. This is the clause referring to the proposed reduction | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
in dividend income that that investors in sparking bunnies can | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
take. If the Government in Paris to buy that caused and is that why it | :56:12. | :56:23. | |
is being withdrawn? As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the | :56:24. | :56:24. | |
contrary, "no". The ayes habit. As many as are of the opinion, say | :56:25. | :56:48. | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no".. The question is that clause six stand | :56:49. | :56:55. | |
part of the Bill. Act stop the ayes habit. We now come to group to | :56:56. | :57:04. | |
taxation and income tax avoidance and tax evasion. Minister to move. | :57:05. | :57:13. | |
Thank you. Perhaps before I say something about the group to, if I | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
could comment on both the maiden speech and the retirement speech. It | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
was a real honour to be here in the chamber for the Honourable MP for | :57:24. | :57:31. | |
Copeland's speech. She reminded many of us on this side of the chamber | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
has she inspired us to make the journey up to her constituency in | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
that we were supposing a fantastic woman with a passion of her | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
community. I had many friendly dealings with Jamie Reid and I was | :57:48. | :57:53. | |
in the Department of Health, so I welcome her comments. Vista | :57:54. | :57:56. | |
Chairman, it was a wonderful maiden speech and I look forward to many | :57:57. | :58:02. | |
from her in the future. I wish her and her rather long-suffering family | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
for the weeks ahead. She spoke with conviction about the contribution of | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
nuclear power, but I rather think in the forthcoming campaign it will be | :58:12. | :58:17. | |
girl power to the fore. To the Honourable member of Oxford East, it | :58:18. | :58:20. | |
is nice to hear members reflect upon their time in this house and the way | :58:21. | :58:28. | |
they have served, and as he noted, a nice book ending with a Finance Bill | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
debate and a final contribution on Treasury matters and, of course, he | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
paid tribute to his constituents. I'm sure in these circumstances, one | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
has less time than once thought to do a round of goodbyes, but I am | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
sure he will be continuing to be active in his community, and I | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
congratulate him on his speech and thank him on perhaps of the House. | :58:52. | :58:59. | |
Let me turn to group two, taxation of employment income and clause on | :59:00. | :59:06. | |
income tax and evasion. I know there are a number of clauses and | :59:07. | :59:09. | |
schedules in this group including a new clause from the Honourable | :59:10. | :59:12. | |
member for Aberdeen North. I'm going to focus on clause seven and a | :59:13. | :59:18. | |
schedule which refers to workers and services provided to the full | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
service to intermediaries which might be of interest to members, but | :59:23. | :59:26. | |
I will address other areas in the course of the debate. Clause seven | :59:27. | :59:36. | |
and schedule one show of payment... Individuals working in the public | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
sector. The tax system needs to keep pace with the different ways in | :59:41. | :59:45. | |
which people are working. As the Chancellor set out in the Autumn | :59:46. | :59:49. | |
Statement, the public 's finances face a risk. The Government | :59:50. | :00:01. | |
estimates in 2021, 22, the people wanting to work through company will | :00:02. | :00:03. | |
be through six billion pounds. This goes through people working through | :00:04. | :00:08. | |
their own personal service company, if it were not for that company, | :00:09. | :00:14. | |
they would not be cost as employees. There is a design that individuals | :00:15. | :00:21. | |
work in a similar way to employees, they hate broadly the same taxes as | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
employees. However, noncompliance with these rules is currently | :00:26. | :00:32. | |
widespread, H MRC estimates 10% who should operate these do so. But a | :00:33. | :00:39. | |
?100 million is lost every across the economy around 20% relates to | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
noncompliance in the public sector. This is neither sustainable nor | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
further. We think there was a responsibility to taxpayers that | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
people working for them are paying the right amount of tax. It is | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
therefore right that individuals doing the same job should be taxed | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
in a similar way regardless of whether or not they are working to a | :01:03. | :01:03. | |
company. The changes being made addresses | :01:04. | :01:12. | |
They may have responsibility for They may have responsibility for | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
determine whether or not the payroll working rules applies to the public | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
authority is the individual is working for from the sex of April | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
2017, they also make the public authority agency or other third | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
responsible for operating PAYE on responsible for operating PAYE on | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
those payments. This will improve compliance with the rules. It is | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
also important to note that the reform does not introduce a new tax | :01:42. | :01:48. | |
liability nor does it affect it generally self-employed. It will | :01:49. | :01:49. | |
simply ensure the current rules are simply ensure the current rules are | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
implied as intended. If clarity is needed, each MRC have watched | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
extensively through stakeholders to develop the new digital check | :01:59. | :02:06. | |
service which people can use to help implement the changes. That has been | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
licensed last month and used many thousands of times. To assess people | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
and looking at how to apply those rules. On that note, I've had people | :02:16. | :02:24. | |
mentioned to me that no matter what information they pretend, it has | :02:25. | :02:26. | |
always told them that they have got to pay a higher level of tax than | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
the previously expecting to. I had concerns with the meat about that | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
tool and the shortcomings with that and the fact that HMRC is always | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
asking them to pay too high level of tax. I think the best thing ability | :02:42. | :02:49. | |
can do is to send of that through immediately and before disillusion | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
in order that HMRC can look at the factual issues. I'd be surprised, | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
but let as asked them to look at the but let as asked them to look at the | :02:59. | :03:06. | |
practical issues she raises and perhaps why we're off or doing other | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
things that is something they can look at FC supplies the information | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
in the next few days. They have worked with the Cabinet Office to | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
produce guidance for public produce guidance for public | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
authorities and have supported them to implement the changes. There is | :03:21. | :03:28. | |
an amendment the Government has laid, and that is a technical | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
amendment to ensure the reform only applies to the public sector, as set | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
out in the initial announcement. The Government believes it is essential | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
to ensure that those in receipt academic correct amount of tax and | :03:46. | :03:54. | |
that these titles raise as a sandal amount of ready by forcing that | :03:55. | :04:05. | |
compliance by 2122. I therefore move that these clauses stand part of the | :04:06. | :04:19. | |
bell. Thank you very much. I would like to talk about the issues raised | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
in gripping to a new clause one. Starting off with a IR 35 Ashes that | :04:25. | :04:33. | |
the Minister has covered in some detail. We still have real concerns | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
about the changes. Just the other day, somebody said to me that they | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
will no longer bad for public sector contracts on the basis of the | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
changes made and an IR 35. I think that is a real concern, and it is | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
something we have raised before particularly in the context of rural | :04:52. | :04:59. | |
communities. People like teachers, nurses, unemployed through | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
intermediaries to very good reasons, it is sometimes difficult to get | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
people to come to rural communities. We are in concerned this is going to | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
have a real disadvantage particular for rural communities who rely on | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
teachers and doctors and individuals working in the public sector who are | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
understand that this is having an understand that this is having an | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
impact of ready, but it would be very interesting for the Government, | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
and would appreciate it, if they would come back and letters know | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
what differences has made is not just to the Government's tax take | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
but what differences has made to our community is and what impact this | :05:41. | :05:50. | |
has had. Having read the documents, the document about the changes, I | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
don't think they recognise the impact that this could have on | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
interesting to see that going interesting to see that going | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
forward, this has a ready been implemented, the change has already | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
been made, so we are already working within this, so I would imagine | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
would be able to see the outcomes within six months. Around tax | :06:13. | :06:20. | |
avoidance, and a new clause in relation to it, this is something | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
that the SNP has spoken about at length in this Parliament and will | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
continue to speak about at length. Tax avoidance is something that is a | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
real concern, and it contributes to the Government's tax gap. There is a | :06:37. | :06:44. | |
gap of ?36 billion. There was a report in 2014 that suggests this is | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
something larger companies like the United Kingdom struggle with. Trying | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
to get people to not avoid tax. Small countries are much better at | :06:54. | :07:04. | |
this. Just pointing that out. Best news -- we asked the Chancellor of | :07:05. | :07:12. | |
the executive in two months review best practices and listen to | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
combating tax evasion and bring forward a report on this review. We | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
are asking this because we don't think that the United Kingdom is the | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
best place in the world at tackling tax avoidance, we certainly don't | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
think it is the best that all of the different ways of tackling tax | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
avoidance, and there is a huge amount we can learn from different | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
countries about what they are doing. I think this would be a really | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
sensible way forward and I hope the Government would be keen to accept | :07:42. | :07:48. | |
this new clause. The other thing... Just around tax avoidance, something | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
else we mentioned is about the protection of whistle-blowers. They | :07:54. | :08:00. | |
tend to have very pure health, are tend towards very poor health | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
because of whistle-blowing. It is really important people are | :08:07. | :08:06. | |
encouraged to come forward if they encouraged to come forward if they | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
easy as possible for them to come easy as possible for them to come | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
forward, because we need them to come forward and tell as the | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
practice is going wrong, and were tax dodging is happening. We would | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
support the Government in any mood at with make to encourage | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
whistle-blowers and to allow them a better environment in which to come | :08:28. | :08:34. | |
forward. Lastly, around Brexit, and around the possibility of the United | :08:35. | :08:41. | |
Kingdom becoming a tax haven. We would absolutely reject the notion | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
that the United Kingdom after Brexit should just reduce taxes to nearly | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
nothing. That does not work if you want to have public services like | :08:52. | :08:58. | |
the NHS. It simply... I'm hoping everyone here is supportive of the | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
NHS, but I get by the Honourable member of for Glasgow believes the | :09:06. | :09:12. | |
aunt. We need the NHS to be supported, and any taxes to, and to | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
support it. I thank the Honourable Lady forgetting away. This year | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
degree that order should be on maximising the tax take. The | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
reduction in tax could lead to an increase in tax take. I agree with | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
bookies should be an maximising tax take but I would go rounded and a | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
different way. I would try to different way. I would try to | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
encourage companies and individuals and the economy to grow, trying to | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
get people into more productive jobs, and increase productivity. An | :09:46. | :09:47. | |
increase in productivity is something the Government has | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
mentioned and something we have been good at in Scotland recently. It is | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
higher than at sides of the border. That is why I would start. -- than | :09:59. | :10:07. | |
size of the border. I am just about size of the border. I am just about | :10:08. | :10:14. | |
to vanish. Our new goal. We have got plenty of time. I thank the | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
Honourable Lady forgetting way. Very briefly, does she not agreeing that | :10:22. | :10:30. | |
by reducing tax in this country, reducing corporation tax in | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
particular, we are more likely to attract inward investment and new | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
companies from around the globe to this country, thereby producing the | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
taxes to pay for our public services. I do not believe that | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
there is a huge amount of evidence for that. And companies are looking | :10:49. | :10:56. | |
at where to base their headquarters, corporation tax doesn't feature all | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
that highly on the list of places. They are looking for good and the | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
structure, good schools, good support in this journey and it is | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
four and a vigil. Corporation tax is not at the top of that list. I would | :11:09. | :11:18. | |
do other things first. It will be someday. That is the end of my | :11:19. | :11:28. | |
comments. Thank you. The question is that clause seven stand part of the | :11:29. | :11:38. | |
it. As many as are of the opinion, it. As many as are of the opinion, | :11:39. | :11:45. | |
say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The aye savant. | :11:46. | :11:58. | |
That close 11 stand part of the bell. As many as are of the opinion, | :11:59. | :12:05. | |
say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The aye have it. Closes 12 to 16, | :12:06. | :12:13. | |
the question is that clauses 12 to 16 stab part of the bill. As many as | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I think the nose | :12:18. | :12:24. | |
17 and 18 stand part of the bill. As 17 and 18 stand part of the bill. As | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The | :12:29. | :12:35. | |
aye have full stop the question is that 19 and 20 stand part of the | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
bell. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I | :12:40. | :12:46. | |
think the nose have it. The question is closed 21 stand part of bill. As | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
ayes have it. The question is clauses 22 to 44 sad part of the | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
bill. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I | :13:02. | :13:12. | |
think the nose have it. The question is that clauses 45 to 47 | :13:13. | :13:14. | |
of the bell. As many as are of the of the bell. As many as are of the | :13:15. | :13:17. | |
"no". The ayes have it. We come to "no". The ayes have it. We come | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
clause 40 eight. The Government clause 40 eight. The Government | :13:25. | :13:37. | |
amended for a proposed clause 48, the question is should the amendment | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
be made. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, | :13:41. | :13:47. | |
"no". The ayes have it. The question is that clause 48 as amended | :13:48. | :13:48. | |
part of the bell. As many as are of part of the bell. As many as are of | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes covered. | :13:52. | :14:00. | |
Clauses 49 to 56. The question is that they stand part of the bell. As | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no".. I | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
think the nose have it. We now come to the next set. The group on the | :14:09. | :14:16. | |
value added tax and the question that clause 47 stand part of the | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
bill with which it will be conveniently considered schedules 19 | :14:21. | :14:28. | |
and two. Thank you very much. I beg to move that clause 57 stand part of | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
the bell. No VAT is charged by an adapted vehicle by an four disabled | :14:34. | :14:41. | |
allow wheelchair users to allow allow wheelchair users to allow | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
independent has been abused by an scrupulous people. They are selling | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
the vehicles on for additional profit. We have discovered for | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
example that one person purchased 30 BMW's under the scheme in one day, | :14:57. | :15:03. | |
and another part 100 vehicles of the nature I would describe as | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
high-performance sports cars and the like, again, that was an under two | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
years. This is clear abuse of the scheme, and the scheme's integrity | :15:15. | :15:25. | |
as questioned by this behaviour. Clause 57 bullish set the number of | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
vehicles and individuals are some in under half of that individual may | :15:31. | :15:32. | |
purchase under the scheme to one every three years. There is. | :15:33. | :15:44. | |
Foster's the legislation recognises that the replacement vehicle make | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
genuine need to be practice within the period. An addition, because | :15:50. | :15:56. | |
makes it mandatory for elasticity met paperwork to HMRC as well as | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
apply penalties to those abusing the scheme. We expect those changes will | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
support those who it is intended to add the cost of about ?40 million | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
per year by reducing fraud and saving taxpayers up to ?80 million | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
over the next five years. The Chancellor announced these changes | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
in the Autumn Statement, and they were welcomed by key stakeholders | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
including disabled motor UK, who stated that disabled motoring UK | :16:25. | :16:25. | |
supporting the efforts of the supporting the efforts of the | :16:26. | :16:28. | |
Government to safeguard the scheme and make sure it is only access by | :16:29. | :16:30. | |
eligible disabled motorists. It is our intention we tackle this | :16:31. | :16:41. | |
fraud but continue to offer financial support to disabled | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
wheelchair users to lead independent lives. I moved that clause 57 stands | :16:46. | :16:53. | |
part of the bill. Let me turn to new clause two. Scheduled by the SNP. We | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
returned to a subject that has had the doting in this chamber before. | :16:59. | :17:06. | |
The issue of VAT on Scottish fire and rescue. This new clause has been | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
tabled by the honourable member for Aberdeen North. It requests that the | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
Treasury commissioned a review of the VAT treatment of the Scottish | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
police authority and the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. Reporting | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
the costs of VAT at present and how this would change if they were | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
eligible for refunds. Mr Chairman, to recover by comments that have | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
been made from this dispatch box before, to receive sections 33 VAT | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
refunds a body must receive funding through local taxation and perform a | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
function of a local authority. Now in 2012 the Scottish Government | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
restructured its regional police and Fire Services into two national | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
bodies. Police Scotland be Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. Both are | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
funded locally and do not, let me complete the exposition, if I can, | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
of why this doesn't qualify. Both those bodies are funded centrally, | :18:02. | :18:08. | |
rather than through local taxation, therefore do not meet eligibility | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
criteria for section 33 VAT refunds. The Treasury warned the Scottish | :18:14. | :18:16. | |
Government in advance that making these changes would result in the | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
last of VAT refunds and so in deciding to go ahead be Scottish | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
Government fully considered the costs and benefits of doing so | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
including the loss of VAT refunds. Therefore, there is no additional | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
benefits to be had from the Government committing Resorts and | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
time to produce a report on this issue. I therefore urge the | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
committee to reject new clause two. Just before I finish give way. | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
I wonder if the Chief Secretary can tell us how London legacy and | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
England are funded. These are all matters that have been | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
covered before. I referred the honourable lady two comments I've | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
made previously in response to similar comments and interventions. | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
It is not just in finance Bill is that these measures have been | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
discussed, but also during the passage of the Scotland Bill there | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
was discussion of this. Again, the message was the same. This was a | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
decision taken in the full knowledge of the VAT consequences, therefore I | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
urge her to reject the tabled new clause which calls Riverview. | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
Thank you, very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. If the Minister changes the | :19:28. | :19:34. | |
consideration of the Scottish police and fire I promise not to raise this | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
again in the house. I see she's getting fed up of discussing this, | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
and frankly, so am I. But if the Government were to move on this we | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
would not raise it again. Would she give way? The other option open to | :19:48. | :19:54. | |
the Government would be to devolve power over VAT to the Scottish | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
parliament so that it could make all these decisions. We were promised | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
the most powerful legislature in the world so why doesn't the Government | :20:03. | :20:04. | |
live up to that commitment and give us the powers we need? | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
I agree with my colleague. What we have is devolved portions of VAT | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
which actually makes not a huge amount of sense. Although we welcome | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
any new power was coming to be Scottish parliament it would be much | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
better if we had all control over fat rather than just an income. In | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
terms of this, the Scottish police and Fire Service are charged VAT, | :20:30. | :20:36. | |
and like highways England, which is a national English body, and like | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
London legacy which is a national UK wide body. Both of those the UK | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
Government has created exemption for because the UK Government decided | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
was a good idea. They have not done this for Scottish police and fire. | :20:51. | :20:58. | |
This is costing the Scottish people because Scottish police and Scottish | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
Fire have to pay this VAT bill to the UK Government rather than having | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
the money to spend. But she give way? Yes. There's that charge is | :21:08. | :21:14. | |
costing Scotland's emergency services tens of millions of pounds | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
per year. Does she agree with me that both her constituents and mine | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
would rather this money was spent fighting crime and funding emergency | :21:25. | :21:26. | |
services rather than plugging the holes in the Tory government budget | :21:27. | :21:29. | |
because of poor planning and budgeting? | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
I absolutely agree with my colleague. In June 2016 it was | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
reported that Scotland's single police force has paid ?76.5 million | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
in VAT since it was formed in the three years previously. It remains | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
unable to claim that tax. The UK Government has created exemption is | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
for other bodies it sees as important. Why are London Legacy And | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
Highways England more important than Scottish police and Scottish Fire? | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
We ask the UK Government to change this. The question is that clause 57 | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
stand as part of the bill. Decision-macro. The ayes have | :22:11. | :22:20. | |
we now stand with the question at clause lifted becomes part of the | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
bill with which it is convenient to consider the question at clause 59 | :22:27. | :22:34. | |
stands as part of the bill. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Clause 58 | :22:35. | :22:37. | |
legislate is for the increase in standard rates premium tax from 12% | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
to 10% as announced at the Autumn Statement 2016. This change will be | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
effective from the 1st of June this year. Clause 59 makes minor changes | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
to provision so insurers cannot artificially avoid is paying the new | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
rate of tax by adjusting contact days. The Government remains can | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
admitted to the fiscal mandate of eliminating the deficit. Much as but | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
she. The Government is forecast to have reduced the deficit by two | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
thirds by the end of this year. In 2018 and 19 debt will fall for the | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
first time in 16 years. However, we cannot be complacent. A recent | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
report highlights the challenges posed on an ageing population. | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
Projecting debt almost trebling by 234% over the next 50 years. If no | :23:26. | :23:32. | |
further action is taken. I'm so sorry to interrupt the honourable | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
lady, but I speak on behalf of a Scout group who are most concerned | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
about the impact insurance premium tax increases will have on | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
charities. Not just Scout groups. Has she considered this matter since | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
my boyfriend raise this previously, and does she have good news if not | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
for the whole charity sector, at least for the -- honourable friend | :23:56. | :24:07. | |
raise this. I am happy to put his local Scout group on the record, as | :24:08. | :24:14. | |
it were. I attended and spoke at a charity tax conference recently. The | :24:15. | :24:22. | |
point I made to them is that whilst we aren't speaking exceptions for a | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
number of reasons, some of them logistical, there are a lot of | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
different ways in which the Government exempts and tries to tax | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
for charities and sports them in other ways. The existing tax reliefs | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
that go to charities and community groups in this country are worth | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
many billions, and there are many that are not taken up as much as | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
recovered. In particular, I don't know if the honourable gentleman | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
noted it, that the issue of Scout groups got a very thorough airing | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
during the passage of the gift aid donation scheme measures that we | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
took through the house last autumn. Measures designed to help groups | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
like that but do a lot of their fundraising outside of the | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
headquarters, as it were. So whilst I can't give him comfort on this | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
issue, I would draw his attention to the fact that there are many other | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
ways in which we have two relief groups with the groups, particularly | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
that recent change which I would encourage him to discuss with the | :25:22. | :25:29. | |
Scout group because, that one was taken very much with them in mind | :25:30. | :25:36. | |
with regard to collecting donations. Thank you very much. Essentially, | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
this is one of the taxes the Government is keeping in. It's the | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
third tax rising 18 months for insurance premium tax. With the | :25:47. | :25:49. | |
minister justify why the Government is proposing this third increase | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
which increases the rate by 20%? Well above the rate of inflation. | :25:55. | :26:02. | |
Well, yes, I am coming to that. I think the Chancellor was admirably | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
clear in the way he laid this out for the house at the time. The | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
Government has worked to eliminate the deficit and invest in Britain's | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
future. We want to ensure the public finances remain sustainable. | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
Building resilience to future shocks. We've prioritised as a | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
government tax changes to help ordinary working families and | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
encourage businesses to invest in the UK. We are supporting jobs and | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
helping people's money to go further we've committed to investment in the | :26:34. | :26:40. | |
national productivity investment fund for infrastructure and an ?2 | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
billion for social care which relieves pressure is on the NHS. Now | :26:46. | :26:52. | |
an increasing insurers tax means we can mean time the balance between | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
that investment and control the deficit. The Government gives the | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
Blacks pretty impressed. There is a tax on insurance not in any way | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
obliged to pass on the tax of higher premiums. As if they pass on the | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
increase it will be spread thinly across a wide range of people and | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
businesses. In line with the informal agreement between the | :27:14. | :27:16. | |
Government and the social age and of British insurers firms should have | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
been given over six months notice giving them time to implement the | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
change. This gives insurers proper warning of a rate change and ensures | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
the correct rate of tax on a policy is known when the policy is | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
arranged. The changes made by clause lifted will raise approximately ?850 | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
million every year to reduce the deficit whilst assuring we can fund | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
spending commitments. That is the answer to the previous intervention. | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
Insurance premium taxes are not consumers, it will be insurance | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
companies tries whether to pass on 2% rate increase. Even if increases | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
were passed on in foil the impact would be very modest, costing | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
households less than 35p a week on average. The changes made by close | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
59 protect revenue earning sure they cannot avoid paying the new rate of | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
IP TV adjusting contract dates. The Government, as I said, is committed | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
to reducing the deficit while still investing in the UK. This requires | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
some difficult decisions, including the 2% increase to the standard rate | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
of IPT. This change will be invaluable in funding vital public | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
spending, such as the additional ?2 billion committed for social care. | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
Therefore, I moved that the clause stands part of the bill. Thank you, | :28:32. | :28:43. | |
Mr Deputy Speaker. It's really interesting to hear the ministers | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
say it only costs an average of 35p a week, 35p a week is quite a lot, | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
particularly if you don't have an extra 35p a week. The ABI says that | :28:54. | :29:00. | |
UK consumers and businesses already pay relatively high levels of IPT. | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
It cannot be right that people are being forced to pay an increasingly | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
high price for doing the responsible thing Mr Deputy Speaker, this is, as | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
was said by my colleague, this is the third increase. At the start of | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
parliament it was something like 3%, and 6.5, by 9.5. This has been | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
increasing over the course of this Parliament. This is a tax on people | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
doing the right thing. It is a tax on people insuring their homes and | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
properties. I agree with the honourable member who spoke about | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
the Scout group. This is also a tax on charities and organisations that | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
are providing a brilliant experience for young boys and girls. I think | :29:45. | :29:52. | |
that this has not been considered in to drag the Government has loved at | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
this unseen opportunity to get a view extra pennies then. Absolutely. | :29:57. | :30:03. | |
I'm very grateful for the honourable lady giving way. She, like me, may | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
have a rural constituency with lots of young drivers experiencing high | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
cost of insurance. Would she welcomed many signs from the | :30:14. | :30:15. | |
Minister that this would be looked at in the future with respect to the | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
impact it may have on the young, particularly if it impacts social | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
mobility on the young? I appreciate the honourable member coming in with | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
that. I don't actually have a rural constituency but I do live near one. | :30:30. | :30:35. | |
I recognise that issues are faced by younger drivers. Particularly in | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
rural areas we want young people to be able to access services. We want | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
them to drive safely and afford insurance when they do so they can | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
travel and access jobs and opportunities. And training, should | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
they need to. I would agree with the member from the Conservatives, and | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
ask, also, that this is one of the areas the Government looks at going | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
forward. We cannot continue to see hikes in insurance premium tax. A | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
20% hike is absolutely ridiculous, especially hot on the heels of other | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
hikes in insurance premium tax. The Government needs to look seriously | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
at this and commit to no further increases next Parliament. | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
I have two points. First, to reiterate to the Minister, because | :31:22. | :31:29. | |
she artfully shifted to saying there was a 2% rise in the tax. It is a | :31:30. | :31:37. | |
two percentage point tax rise, 20% tax rise. I ask the Minister how she | :31:38. | :31:44. | |
can justify that massive increase relative to inflation. She did not | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
reply. As a Conservative tax cutter, I suppose she is embarrassed. I have | :31:49. | :31:55. | |
another question I would like the Minister to answer. Can she rule out | :31:56. | :32:04. | |
extending the provision of IPT? Clearly, IPT has been hit on by the | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
Government because it is one of the few things it has not legislated not | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
to increase is a form of taxation that will change doubtless in the | :32:12. | :32:18. | |
Conservative manifesto. As long as this is the taxpayer sitting on | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
because it is the one they have left, with the Minister very clearly | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
states that they will not in future years extend IPT to the insurance | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
market, which would net them more money? The question is that clause | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
50 stand part of the bill. As many of that opinion is a aye. On the | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
contrary, no. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. | :32:43. | :32:53. | |
We now come to the group on landfill tax, alcohol duties, other duties of | :32:54. | :33:00. | |
taxation, oil, gas and etc. We begin with the question of whether clause | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
60 should be part of the bill, with which it is convenient to consider | :33:04. | :33:10. | |
the clauses listed on the selection paper. Minister to move. | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
Thank you very much. In this part of the debate, I planned to focus my | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
comments particularly on alcohol duties, which I anticipate being of | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
the greatest interest to honourable members. Other clauses within this | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
group provides for other changes and we also have a new cause tabled for | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
the honourable member for Aberdeen North baby oil and gas industry, | :33:36. | :33:38. | |
which we might come to. Let me turn to clause 65 first. It sets out | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
changes to alcohol duty rates taking effect on the 13th of March 20 17. | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
The budget and ends that the duty rates on beer, wine cider and | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
spirits would stay flat in real terms. This is in line with devious | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
policy forecasts. As I know that members are probably aware, alcohol | :34:01. | :34:07. | |
duties rise by RPI inflation each year, meaning there is a cost to the | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
Exchequer Secretary de -- freezing or cutting alcohol duty rates. If | :34:11. | :34:18. | |
there was a cut in 2017, the Government would have had instead to | :34:19. | :34:21. | |
raise taxes in other areas of the economy, to cut public spending or | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
increase the public deficit. Consumers and businesses continue to | :34:27. | :34:28. | |
benefit from the previous alcohol duty changes, which initial | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
estimates suggest will save them around ?3 billion in duty between | :34:33. | :34:41. | |
fiscal year is 2015-2017. I will set out briefly how other Government | :34:42. | :34:43. | |
policies have affected different rings in the sector. Let me turn to | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
spirits duty. The Government recognises the important | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
contribution that Scotch whisky makes to both the economy and local | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
communities. The Scotch Whisky Association, who I had a meeting | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
with and a chance to hear from directly, estimate that Scotch | :35:01. | :35:10. | |
whisky, whisky ads -- Scotch whisky ads moans of pounds to the economy. | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
I understand distilleries provide an important source of employment firm | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
rural communities. The Scotch Whisky Association estimate that export to | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
200 countries and every continent was worth ?4 billion last year and | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
accounted for nearly 20% of all UK entered ex-pats. -- exports. Exports | :35:30. | :35:38. | |
in malts were exceeding ?1 billion for the first time last year. More | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
Scotch whisky is sold in France in one month land cognac in an entire | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
year. We are committed to supporting this great British success story. It | :35:50. | :35:56. | |
was one of the first food and drink products to feature in our campaign. | :35:57. | :36:06. | |
There was a trade visit to India last year as well. There is a | :36:07. | :36:13. | |
potential for whisky to grow to 5% of the market with the right trade | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
agreement. That would be equivalent to a 10% increase in the current | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
global trading Scotch. Since ending the spirits duty escalator in 2014, | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
the tax and a bottle Scotch whisky is now 90p Lord Barnett would have | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
otherwise -- lower than it would have otherwise been. There has been | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
an amendment to diverse list in relation to spirits. This would not | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
help exports because no duty is paid on exported spirits. It would help | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
those selling instead in the UK market. The amendment would cost the | :36:48. | :36:50. | |
exchequer and so increase the deficit by around ?100 million this | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
year. The Government is therefore, for the reasons I have indicated, | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
not least the Bottom Line scorecard cost, rejecting this amendment as it | :37:00. | :37:06. | |
were not help exporters of whisky or other spirits and it is underfunded. | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
Clause 65 keeps spirit duty rates flat in real terms so consumers will | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
continue to benefit from the previous change to spirits duty | :37:16. | :37:23. | |
rates. I should touch, while we're on spirits, and another great | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
British success. The gin industry. I was informed with industry | :37:30. | :37:36. | |
specialists that gin sales exceeded ?1 billion for the first time in the | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
UK recently. I expect that many others will be partaking in a number | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
of these products in the week ahead. I said a number of us! Perhaps in | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
celebration, perhaps sustenance, perhaps in who knows what? It is | :37:53. | :38:00. | |
good that we put on record these British success stories, as they | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
say. I was also told that the number of gin brands has more than doubled | :38:06. | :38:15. | |
since 2010. Yes, doubles all-round. A typical bottle of gin and means | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
80p Lord Barnett would have been since we ended the spirit duty | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
escalator. As for Scotch whisky, there is no UK duty payable on | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
exported gym. Turning to bear, we also ended the beer duty escalator | :38:29. | :38:35. | |
to help pubs. Pubs play an important role in promoting responsible | :38:36. | :38:42. | |
drinking and are important in June July. Brewers make an important | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
contribution to local Connelly 's and the increase in the number of | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
small brewers in recent years has increased diversity and choice in | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
the beer market by promoting a larger range of beers. That has | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
benefited all brewers. This does not undo the previous year due to cuts | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
and freezes. The Government cut the tax on a typical pint in previous | :39:04. | :39:11. | |
years and froze duty rates last year. As a result of this, drinkers | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
are paying 11p less in tax on a typical pint this year than they | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
would otherwise have. On Wine jetty, the Government is also committed to | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
supporting the UK wine industry. First joint industry and Defra round | :39:26. | :39:35. | |
table resulted in industry targets, including targets to increase wine | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
production tenfold by 2020. The wine sector will continue to benefit from | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
previous changes to wine duty rates. Cider makers also play an important | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
role in rural economies, using over half the apples grown in the UK. The | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
duty on a typical pint of cider remains around half of that on a | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
typical pint of beer. The tax remains law as it would have -- than | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
it would have been because of the Government's decision to change | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
cider duty rates since 2014. To conclude, we fully recognise the | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
importance of the alcohol industry to the economy and local | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
communities. I have talked and met with failure 's representatives from | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
across the alcohol industry and will continue to engage with them. The | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
cuts and freezes in duty rates, since ending the alcohol duty | :40:26. | :40:32. | |
escalator is, will continue to save businesses around ?3 billion of duty | :40:33. | :40:39. | |
between fiscal year 2013 and 2017. However, a loving alcohol duties to | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
follow every year in real terms would be unsustainable in the long | :40:44. | :40:46. | |
term. If alcohol duties had been frozen or cut at G2017, the | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
Government would have had to raise taxes in other areas of the economy | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
or increase the public deficit. This increases duties in line with | :40:59. | :41:02. | |
inflation, has assumed in the fiscal forecasts. This is not a return to | :41:03. | :41:09. | |
the real time increases this year. I move that this clause stays part of | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
the bill. I will start talking about alcohol | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
and whisky in particular and then I will move on to talk about oil and | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
gas. Specifically around whisky, I appreciate the minister taking the | :41:25. | :41:26. | |
time to talk about the country vision of the Scottish whisk the | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
industry. -- whisky industry. It is indeed contribute to the economy, | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
particularly the 40,000 jobs and 7000 in the real economy. Those are | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
really important, particularly for Scottish rural communities. The | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
changes that were made previously to spirit duty meant that there was | :41:48. | :41:54. | |
confidence in the industry again. And we saw Bill change in the | :41:55. | :41:56. | |
industry and last couple of years because of the positive moves the UK | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
Government made in relation to spirit duty. A dozen new | :42:01. | :42:13. | |
distilleries open and others in planning. But changes will mean that | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
every ?4 ?5 spent on whisky go to the Government's Coffer. My | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
colleague from the Isle of Bute, chairperson of the all-party group | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
on Scotch whisky, spoke at length, well, only four minutes, on this, | :42:29. | :42:37. | |
and a second reading of the bill. I appreciate the minister talking | :42:38. | :42:39. | |
about the gin industry and the real success story it has been, | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
particularly for these new distilleries. It takes a well to | :42:43. | :42:50. | |
mature Scotch whisky but not gin. The issue that we have got is the | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
context this is seen in. I understand the minister saying that | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
this would not affect people selling these products abroad, but given | :42:59. | :43:05. | |
that most of the producers selling whisky are also selling whisky in | :43:06. | :43:08. | |
the domestic market, it does have an effect on those selling abroad, | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
obviously. In the wider context of Brexit, in the context of the fact | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
that the trade deals that we currently have won the longer exist | :43:19. | :43:21. | |
and we will have to negotiate new trade deals, negotiate a trade deal | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
with the EU and sell whisky to France, as a minister mentioned, we | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
will need to have a trade deal. In order for that to happen. We will | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
meet trade deals with the countries we currently trade with in the EU | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
free trade agreements. A major concern for those of us who | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
represent constituencies that have involvement in whisky is about the | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
protected geographical indication. It is only using -- it is an EU | :43:51. | :44:01. | |
thing. Because of this data is, people are not allowed to bottle | :44:02. | :44:03. | |
whisky somewhere else and Colin Scotch whisky. We're set to lose | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
that protection when the UK leaves the EU. It is really important that | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
this Government does what it can to ensure that the Scotch whisky | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
industry continues today with the trade -- to be able to trade and | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
protect its brand. I do not see that coming through. If the UK Government | :44:26. | :44:32. | |
were not have raised the duty on whisky and spirits particularly in | :44:33. | :44:35. | |
this budget, it would have given much more confidence to the industry | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
going forward and they would have been and are much better position to | :44:39. | :44:41. | |
take decisions because they would have known that they have the | :44:42. | :44:44. | |
confidence of the UK Government. Moving to oil and gas... We have two | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
amendments on the papers in relation to oil and gas. New clause three and | :44:50. | :45:04. | |
me cause four. -- clause four. The first one is around the investment | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
allowances. Now, this Tory Government has come up with the we | :45:10. | :45:11. | |
are one of the most competitive physical regimes for oil and gas. | :45:12. | :45:17. | |
That is all well and good. We are one of the most mature fields in the | :45:18. | :45:24. | |
world, also. We are having to do things in the North Sea to implement | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
new technologies that we have never seen before. So there is a huge | :45:30. | :45:32. | |
amount of innovation from our companies having to go on in order | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
for them to be able to achieve the UK Government's recovery strategy. | :45:37. | :45:44. | |
This first new clauses about investment allowances and the | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
Corporation tax rates on companies producing oil and gas. The UK | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
Government has put the tax up and down, but it has not at any stage | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
sit down and looked at the entire taxation of the oil and gas industry | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
and said, we are operating in a new scenario. It has kept taxes that we | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
have had since oil and gas began to be taken from the North Sea. It is | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
time for UK Government to look at the tax structure and regimes and | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
see how it can incentivise companies to ensure that they are getting the | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
best out of the North Sea and securing jobs in the north-east of | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
Scotland and beyond for as long as possible. | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
I'd like to talk about my new clause four in my name and that of the SNP. | :46:32. | :46:40. | |
It's about the competitiveness of UK registered companies. I've mentioned | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
deep commissioning but I've also mention new fields. This is a | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
similar clause to the one we moved last year in the Finance Bill. This | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
is something I would like to see the Government take action on. Whenever | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
I meet with supply chain companies or individuals who are working at | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
the coal face, if you like in oil and gas, they tell me this is a | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
major issue. We are seeing decommissioning beginning in the | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
North Sea. There are some fields at the end of their lives, some in the | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
North Sea are at the end of usable life, whatever we do they are at the | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
end of their life. They are being decommissioned. This is new for us. | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
Companies are having to innovate. We don't want to see any of the jobs | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
created in decommissioning going abroad if we can help it. We would | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
like to see this government look at what it can do to the tax regime to | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
ensure those jobs are kept in the UK as far as possible. In relation to | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
new fields we are asking about that. I spoke during the second reading in | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
relation to small pools, those which have less than 50 million barrels of | :47:51. | :47:57. | |
oil. They are not in this tax system, in this fiscal situation, | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
they are not particularly economically viable. The vast | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
majority will not be exploited. Within the current tax regime. If we | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
were seeing changes to the tax regime in order to see those small | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
pools being exploited, if we were seeing further encouragement for | :48:17. | :48:19. | |
companies and the ability to develop new technologies, for example, so | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
that we can access those small fields, then we would see the UK | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
Government's tax take increase as a result of fields being exploited. If | :48:30. | :48:36. | |
we just leave them babies going to be a problem, particularly further | :48:37. | :48:39. | |
down the line. That would be is going to be a problem. They rely on | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
installations that are currently rare. If the big installation in the | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
middle goes, is decommissioned, we lose access to smaller fields around | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
about. This is something the UK Government needs to be on top of | :48:54. | :48:59. | |
today. The last thing is something that made me pretty angry at the | :49:00. | :49:05. | |
budget debate and budget speeches. The UK Government 's, the Chancellor | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
stood up and announced that he was going to make it easier for | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
companies to transfer late life assets. Installations near the end | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
of usable life. He said we are going to have a commission to look into | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
this. This is the same thing he announced last year at the budget, | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
except last year he didn't say he would have a commission. If they'd | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
done it last year they wouldn't need a commissioned this year. I know | :49:31. | :49:43. | |
this is technical, but the Government needs to get in gear and | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
make these changes so these assets can be transferred from the big | :49:48. | :49:49. | |
player was got other things to focus on to a nuclear coming in. -- new | :49:50. | :49:57. | |
player coming in. I appreciate the Government has a commission. I would | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
rather they had done it last year. Even though they didn't we are on | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
board in supporting that change as soon as. The question is that clause | :50:06. | :50:12. | |
six stand part of the bill. As many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
the contrary, 'no'.. The nose have it. The question is that clause 62 | :50:17. | :50:30. | |
to 63 stand part of the bill. As many as are of the opinion say | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'. . I think the noes have it. The noes | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
have it. The question is that clause 64 and 65 stand part of the bill. As | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'. . The | :50:46. | :50:56. | |
ayes have it. The question is that clause 66 to 67 stand part of the | :50:57. | :51:05. | |
bill. As many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'. . | :51:06. | :51:08. | |
I think the noes have it. The question is that clause is 68 to 69 | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
stand part of the bill, As many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To the | :51:13. | :51:19. | |
contrary, 'no'. , the ayes habit. The question is that clause 70 stand | :51:20. | :51:25. | |
part of the bill. As many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To the | :51:26. | :51:31. | |
contrary, 'no'.. I think the noes habit. Have it. We now come to a | :51:32. | :51:40. | |
vote on the soft drink industry levy. A question that forms a | :51:41. | :51:48. | |
clauses amendments and schedules listed on the selection paper. | :51:49. | :51:57. | |
Minister? Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. Clauses 71 to 107 of the | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
Finance Bill contain provisions for a new tax caused the soft drink | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
industry levy to be introduced from April 20 18. This is a key pillar in | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
the Government's childhood obesity plan and welcomed by public health | :52:12. | :52:18. | |
campaigners. Tackling obesity is an international challenge of the UK | :52:19. | :52:21. | |
has one of the highest of these debates in the developed world. | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
Childhood obesity is a concern. Nearly one third of children aged | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
two to 15 are overweight or obese and we know many of these children | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
go on to become obese adults. Obesity drives disease, as we are | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
reminded as we can do the underground station at the moment in | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
Westminster by the Cancer Research UK posters. It increases the risk of | :52:42. | :52:51. | |
heart disease, type two diabetes, stroke and cancer. The NHS spends | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
over ?6 billion a year across the UK dealing with obesity related costs. | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
It is estimated between 27 and ?46 billion every year. This cannot go | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
on. Sugary drink so one of the biggest contributors to childhood | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
obesity and a source of empty cavities. Technical calories. They | :53:08. | :53:16. | |
typically contain nine teaspoons of sugar. Some have as many as 13 | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
teaspoons. This can be more than double the daily recommended intake | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
in one cannot drink. The Government recognises this as a problem and so | :53:26. | :53:33. | |
do many others. 60 officers are calling on a tax on sugary drink and | :53:34. | :53:36. | |
a petition has been signed in favour. This issue has received a | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
high level of cross-party support. Some soft drinks reducers recognised | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
sugar levels in their drinks were a problem to and start to reduce sugar | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
content moving consumers towards diet and sugar free variance and | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
reducing portion sizes for high sugar beverages. But reducing the | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
added sugar is now a public health priority. This new levy is needed to | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
speed up the process. It is specifically designed to encourage | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
the industry to move faster. We gave the industry to use to make progress | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
on this, and we can see it's already working. Since the Government | :54:12. | :54:14. | |
announced the levy last March we've seen a number of major producer | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
accelerates their work to read sugar out of their soft inside escape the | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
charge. This includes Tesco who have already read formerly did the whole | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
brand of in brand soft drinks to not play the levy. Similar moves from | :54:30. | :54:36. | |
Lucozade, Ribena and Irn-Bru. The fact that 40% of all drinks have now | :54:37. | :54:42. | |
been reformatted by the introduction of the levy and we see international | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
action. Other countries like Ireland, Spain, Portugal, as Sony | :54:49. | :54:51. | |
and South Africa have brought forward similar proposals. Because | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
of this reformulation we now expect the levy to raise around ?385 | :54:57. | :55:03. | |
million per year which is less than the ?520 million originally | :55:04. | :55:06. | |
forecast. We are clear this is its excess. The Government will still | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
find the department bread and budget with the ?1 billion the levy was | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
originally expected to raise including money to double the | :55:15. | :55:22. | |
primary school sports premium, deliver funding for school breakfast | :55:23. | :55:24. | |
clubs and ?415 million to be invested in it have the pupils | :55:25. | :55:27. | |
capital programme. Devolved administrations will receive ballot | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
funding in the usual way. The Secretary of State for Education | :55:32. | :55:34. | |
recently announced how some of the money would be spent, particularly | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
around be healthy pupils capital programme. The levy has shown that | :55:41. | :55:43. | |
the Government means business when it comes to reducing hidden sugar in | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
everyday foods. This willingness to take bold action depends on other | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
major part of our plan. Public Health England's sugar reduction | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
programme. This is a ground-breaking programme to seek 20% cuts in sugar | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
by 2020 across the top nine food categories that contribute the most | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
two children's sugar intake. It's been acknowledged, not least by | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
industry that this is challenging, but one that industries are | :56:12. | :56:15. | |
committed to achieving and the sugar reduction programme will cover some | :56:16. | :56:18. | |
of the drinks products which are not part of the levy such as milk -based | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
drinks. The programme is already bearing fruit. We've seen | :56:24. | :56:26. | |
announcements and commitments with regards to reducing levels of sugar | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
in some of these products. Now, I know some would like to see the levy | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
go further, in particular I have before me to amendments proposed by | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
the member for Aberdeen North which would remove the exclusion for high | :56:40. | :56:48. | |
milk content drinks containing at least 75% milk. We oppose those | :56:49. | :56:51. | |
amendments, milk and milk products are a source of protein, calcium, | :56:52. | :56:53. | |
tasking, phosphorus and iodine as well as B-2 and B12. One in five | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
teenage girls do not get enough calcium, one in ten teenage boys. It | :56:59. | :57:04. | |
is essential vacancy in the required amount of nutrients which aid bone | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
formation and promote healthy growth as part of a balanced diet. As | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
experts agree that naturally occurring sugars are not a concern | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
from an obesity perspective, and not included within the definition of | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
free sugars. Of course, we want is milk -based drinks to contain less | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
added sugar and they will, therefore, be part of the sugar | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
reduction programme. Producers will be charged unsupported to redo | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
studied sugar content by 20% by 2020. Public Health England have | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
committed to publishing a detailed assessment of the progress against | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
the 20% target in March 2020, and I committed before the house that we | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
will also revealed the exclusion milk -based drinks in 2020 based on | :57:51. | :57:55. | |
the evidence from Public Health England's assessment of progress | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
against the sugar reduction targets. Therefore I urge members to reject | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
the post amendments in light of that assurance, and allow us to review | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
the evidence in 2020, two years after the levy has begun and decide | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
whether milk is drink should be brought within scope. Mr Chairman, | :58:13. | :58:18. | |
obesity is a problem that has been decades in the making. We aren't | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
going to solve it overnight. These soft drinks levy is not going to be | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
a silver bullet, but it is an important part of the solution. This | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
government's plan, with the levy as its flagship policy is the start of | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
a journey marking a major step towards dealing with our national | :58:37. | :58:39. | |
obesity crisis. I therefore move that these clauses stand part of the | :58:40. | :58:48. | |
bill. Kirsty Blackman. Bank you, very much. On the soft drinks | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
industry never see the Minister is correct. There has been a huge | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
amount of cross-party 's board for the general thrust of this. The move | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
towards tackling obesity, particularly childhood obesity. As I | :59:02. | :59:08. | |
said we are largely supportive of the levy, however, our concern is | :59:09. | :59:14. | |
that it doesn't go far enough. Our concern is that there are loopholes | :59:15. | :59:17. | |
that the Government could have chosen to close when it was writing | :59:18. | :59:23. | |
this bill. The single biggest cause of rentable cancer is obesity. More | :59:24. | :59:29. | |
than 18,100 cancers are you are associated with excess weight. | :59:30. | :59:33. | |
Cancer research says that sugary drinks are the number one source of | :59:34. | :59:38. | |
sugar for 11 to 18-year-olds. For a start but is terrifying. Thinking | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
about this statistic, I appreciate the Government has chosen to take | :59:44. | :59:48. | |
action on this. The Government's response about milk -based drinks, | :59:49. | :59:54. | |
concerns me. And the actual fact about milk -based drinks are | :59:55. | :59:58. | |
particularly excluded concerns me. Will she give way? Thank you for | :59:59. | :00:05. | |
giving way. Does she agree with me that the problem with admitting milk | :00:06. | :00:09. | |
-based drinks from the provisions of this bill is that parents may | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
mistakenly think that those drinks are healthier than soft drinks which | :00:14. | :00:16. | |
have the extra tax. This is not the case. I think that's | :00:17. | :00:22. | |
absolutely right. Given what the Minister has said about milk -based | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
drinks containing protein, calcium and other nutrients, that is true, | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
but so does milk! Children could just drink milk without the added | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
sugar. This is one of those areas where there is added sugar bad | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
people don't realise. People do not realise quite how much added sugar | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
is in there. It's the same as past the sources for example. Parents do | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
not realise when they see a milkshake on the shelf but about | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
could have as much sugar as they can of fizzy juice. The download gentle | :00:57. | :01:03. | |
practice suggested that milk -based drink should be included. -- general | :01:04. | :01:11. | |
dental practice. The health based to committees as milk -based drink | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
should be included. Clause four amendments would remove the | :01:16. | :01:16. | |
exemption for milk -based drinks. I appreciate the Government saying | :01:17. | :01:30. | |
they will review this in 2020 and that they have decided to make that | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
change. Ota promise that coming in in the future. -- or promising that. | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
I appreciate that they have done that. | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
The question is that clause 71 stand part of the bill. As many as of that | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
opinion say aye. On the contrary, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have | :01:52. | :01:59. | |
it. As many of that opinion say aye. To | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
the contrary, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. We now come to the | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
group on fulfilment businesses, digital reporting, and including | :02:10. | :02:16. | |
provisions. We begin with the question that clause 108 stand part | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
of the bill, with which it would be convenient to consider the clauses, | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
amendments and schedules on the selection paper. Kirsty Blackman. | :02:24. | :02:38. | |
I beg to move. I just wanted to say that I appreciate the Government | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
withdrawing the provisions in this. I understand the Government | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
commitment, but I think the changes are reasonable. Thank you. With your | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
indulgence, I thought this would be an appropriate moment to pay tribute | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
to the member for Chichester, the outgoing member for Chichester, and | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
chairperson of the Treasury Select Committee. The Treasury Select | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
Committee has paid a lot of attention to making tax digital. | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
There can be no more fitting tribute to the member for Chichester's | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
leaving this House than the Government withdrawing making tax | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
digital. The honourable member's tribute, selling used to myself, is | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
most appropriate and a do thank him for that. -- is certainly news to | :03:28. | :03:35. | |
myself. The Government does not support the first clause 108. | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
Apologies for not making that clear before. With regard to the comment | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
about making tax digital, I refer colleagues to the statement I made | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
at the beginning of the first group. The question is that clause 108 | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
stand part of the bill. As many as that opinion say aye. On the | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
contrary, no. I think the noes have it, the noes have it. The question | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
is that clauses 109 - 126 stand part of the bill. As many of that opinion | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
say aye. To the contrary, no. The noes have it, the noes have it. The | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
question is that clause 127 stands part of the bill. As many of that | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
opinion say aye. On the contrary, no. The ayes have it, the ayes have | :04:24. | :04:30. | |
it. We now come to the motion to transfer clause 127, which we | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
debated in a previous group. The question is that clause 127 be | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
transferred to the end of line 34 on page 77. As many as that opinion say | :04:40. | :04:48. | |
aye. To the contrary, no. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. The | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
question is that clauses 128-1 and June stand part of the bill. As many | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
as are all that opinion say aye. To the contrary, no. I think the noes | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
have it, the noes have it. I called the Minister to move Government | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
amendments 5-9 to clause 134 formerly. Government amendments 5-9 | :05:11. | :05:18. | |
to clause one of June 30 four as on the amendment paper. The question is | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
that the amendments be made. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
The question is that clause 134, as amended, stays part of the bill. The | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
ayes have it, the ayes have it. The question is that clause one to 35 | :05:37. | :05:45. | |
stand part of the bill. -- 135. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. I | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
call the Minister to move Government amendment ten to schedule one | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
formally. Government amendment ten proposed to schedule one as on the | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
Amendment paper. The question is the Amendment be made. I think the ayes | :05:59. | :06:06. | |
have it, the ayes have it. The question is that schedule one, as | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
amended, the first kettle to the bill. As many as are backed opinion, | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
say aye. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. I called to move Government | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
amendments 11 and 12 to schedule to formally. Proposed to schedule two. | :06:22. | :06:29. | |
The question is that the Amendment be made. The ayes have it, the ayes | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
have it. The question is scheduled to as amended be the second schedule | :06:36. | :06:44. | |
of the bill. I think the ayes have it. I am joking. -- choking. That | :06:45. | :06:55. | |
would have pleased some people! I call the Minister to move Government | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
amendments 13-29 to schedule three formally. Government amendments | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
13-29 proposed to schedule three as on the Amendment paper. The question | :07:08. | :07:14. | |
is the amendments be made. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
The question is that schedule three, as amended, be the bill. As many as | :07:19. | :07:25. | |
are that opinion say aye. To the contrary, no. The eyes it, the ayes | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
have it. I call the Minister to move Government amendments 30-36 for | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
more. Government amendment is 30-56 proposed to schedule for as on the | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
Amendment paper. -- schedule for Mac. The ayes have it, the ayes have | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
it. The question is that schedule four, as amended, either Phil | :07:50. | :07:57. | |
schedule to the bill. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. The | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
question is that schedule is five and six be the fifth and six | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
schedule to the bill as well. As many as are of that opinion, say | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
aye. To the contrary, no. The noes have it, the noes have it. The | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
question is that schedule 7 be the fifth schedule... That is right. The | :08:15. | :08:23. | |
question is that schedule 7 be the fifth schedule to the bill. As many | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
that are of that opinion say aye. To the contrary, no. The ayes have it, | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
the ayes have it. The question is that schedules 8-15 be the sixth at | :08:35. | :08:45. | |
213 schedules of the bill. -- up to 13. The noes have it. I called to | :08:46. | :08:54. | |
have schedule 57 to 16 for my. -- formally. The question is that the | :08:55. | :09:01. | |
Amendment is made. As many that are of the opinion say aye. The ayes | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
have it, the ayes have it. The question is that schedules 17 | :09:05. | :09:20. | |
and 18 to be the seventh and eighth schedules to the bill. As many that | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
are of that opinion say aye, nor contrary, no. The noes have it, the | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
noes have it. The question is 19-23 be the seventh to 11th schedules to | :09:30. | :09:37. | |
the bill. As many at the Mac of that opinion, say aye. The ayes have it, | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
the ayes have it. The question is that schedule 17-24 the their 12th | :09:42. | :09:52. | |
to 17th schedules to the bill. I think the noes have it, the noes | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
have it. The question is that they do report the bill as amended to the | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
House. As many that are of that opinion say aye, to the contrary, | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
no. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. Order, order. | :10:07. | :10:28. | |
Order. Anne Begg to report the committee has gone through the bill | :10:29. | :10:35. | |
and directing me to report the same, with amendments. Under the order of | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
the House of yesterday, we shall now moved to the remaining stages. No | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
amendments on consideration. I shall now suspend the House for no more | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
than five minutes in order to make a decision about certification. The | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
bells on the run two minutes before the House resumes. Following my | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
certification, the Government will table the appropriate consent | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
motion, copies of which will be made available in the vote office and | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
will be distributed by door keepers. Order. | :11:09. | :17:21. | |
Order! Order! For the purposes of standing order number 80 two I | :17:22. | :17:42. | |
certified clause two is relating exclusively to England, Wales and | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
Northern Ireland. And within devolved legislative competence. | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
Order number 82 bel four, the following amendment as relating | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
exclusively to England, Wales and Northern Ireland. That is the | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
omission of clause 60 of the bill, in committee of the whole house. | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
Copies of certificates are available in the vote office and on | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
Parliamentary website. And a standing order number 83 M and 83 S, | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
the consent motion is therefore required for the bill to proceed. | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
Copies of the motion are available on the roads office and have been | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
made available to members in the chamber. Does the Minister intend to | :18:29. | :18:35. | |
move the motion? And a standing order number 83 M, the house must | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
forthwith resolve itself into the legislative grand committee England, | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
Wales and Northern Ireland. Order! Order! Order! They will now be a | :18:45. | :19:14. | |
debate on the consent motion for England, Wales and Northern Ireland. | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
I remind honourable member is that all members may speak in the debate | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
but if there are divisions only members representing constituencies | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
in England, Wales and Northern Ireland may vote on a consent | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
motion. I call a minister to move the consent motion for England, | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
Wales and Northern Ireland. The question is the consent motion | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
relating to England, Wales and Northern Ireland as on the notice | :19:41. | :19:51. | |
paper. As many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'. . | :19:52. | :19:54. | |
The ayes have it. I beg to report that the legislative | :19:55. | :20:27. | |
grand committee, England, Wales and Northern Ireland has consented to | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
the certified clause and certified amendment of the Finance number two | :20:32. | :20:39. | |
bill. Third reading? The question is that the bill be now read the third | :20:40. | :20:46. | |
time, Minister. Thank you, very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
move that the bill now be read a third time. Before I say a few words | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
about in summary about the bill, and the few brief comments, could I just | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
beg your indulgence to make a couple of remarks about colleagues. Earlier | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
in the debate the right honourable member for Oxford East was present | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
and made a valedictory speech. I did make reference to that in the | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
remarks I made subsequent to that but I wasn't in a position to put on | :21:19. | :21:25. | |
the record his record of service to the country, not just as a | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
parliamentarian since 1987, but as a Minister of State for education and | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
employment between 97 and 99 at the Treasury as Chief Secretary between | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
99 and 2002, and that Secretary of State for Work and Pensions between | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
2002 and 2004. Whilst he's not in his place I would ask that his front | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
bench conveyed these sentiments to him, and perhaps draw his attention | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
to the fact that I placed on record, on behalf of the Government and all | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
colleagues are thanks for his service as a government minister | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
over that period of time. With the house's indulgence, may I make a | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
second tribute, having very recently been informed that the right | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
honourable member, the member for Chichester is not seeking | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
reselection at this election. I would ask, want to comment a liberal | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
on him. He's been EMP he's been the MP for Chichester | :22:25. | :22:37. | |
since 1987. Members may be her where he was a senior economist before | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
entering Parliament. He is, of course, a very senior | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
parliamentarian, it is no surprise that when we moved to electing our | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
select committee chairs that he was elected overwhelmingly with a boat | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
across parties, and, of course, in recent times he has served in one of | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
the most senior positions that Parliament has, if not the most | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
senior. As chairman of the liaison committee. In all of those roles he | :23:08. | :23:14. | |
has been enormously distinguished and I speak for everyone in seeing | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
very, very well liked. I have known him over the years I've been in | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
Parliament, but as a Treasury minister I have come to know him | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
better in recent months, and indeed, responded to his letters on many | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
occasions and discussed them in the sidelines, as it were on a number of | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
occasions. Throughout all those dealings, I have seen all that | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
experience and all those qualities brought to bear. I would just like | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
to say that for me, as a minister, he has been kind and wise and I will | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
miss him enormously. Will belong to the third reading of the debate. | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, the economy is fundamentally strong and this bill | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
Caesars take another step forward in building a stronger economy and | :24:02. | :24:04. | |
healthier society. As we have discussed this afternoon the bill is | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
proceeding on the basis of consensus. In number of key policy | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
changes to the tax system such as measures to tackle tax | :24:13. | :24:25. | |
avoidance are being brought forward in a Finance bill at the first | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
opportunity after the election. Even in short and from the bill takes | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
action in three areas that have been consistent priorities. Firstly, the | :24:32. | :24:33. | |
measures take further action is to reduce the deficit. This bill takes | :24:34. | :24:42. | |
the next steps to achieve a fairer, more sustainable tax system. It | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
makes clear the taxes to much keep pace with the different ways people | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
work to ensure fair treatment between individuals. It also | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
demonstrates our continued commitment to tackling tax avoidance | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
and evasion to level the playing field for the honest majority of | :24:59. | :25:01. | |
businesses and individuals that pay what they owe. Finally, in a cause | :25:02. | :25:08. | |
particularly close to my heart is a former health minister, this Bill | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
marks an important step in Chaplin childhood obesity by legislating for | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
the soft drinks industry levy. Something I noted we have achieved a | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
great deal of cross-party consensus. This will deliver a brighter and | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
healthier future for our children. I'm delighted we were able to bring | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
it to the statute book. In conclusion, the Finance Bill | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
supports our commitment to a fair and sustainable tax system which | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
offers support to public services and gets the country back to living | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
within its means. In that regard it sits within this government's | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
long-term commitment to improving the strength of our economy and I | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
commend it to the house. The question is that the Bill be now | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
read a third time. Just before I call the opposition spokesman, may I | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
echo, on behalf of the whole house, the kind words that the minister has | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
said, particularly about to be honourable member is for Oxford East | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
and Chichester. But also for all other honourable member is present | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
this afternoon and have taken part in this Bill and many similar bills | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
assiduously, and brilliantly, on behalf of their constituents and who | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
won't be here during the next Parliament. The whole house wishes | :26:30. | :26:36. | |
them all very well indeed. Petered out. Thank you, Madam Deputy | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
Speaker. Can I concur with the comments you've made and the Commons | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
the Minister has made in relation to the right honourable member for | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
Oxford East and the member for Chichester. May I comment on my | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
honourable friend the member for Wolverhampton South West who will | :26:56. | :26:57. | |
also be leaving the chair. The house. It seems to me that some | :26:58. | :27:05. | |
people have got time off for good behaviour, it seems to me. As I, can | :27:06. | :27:12. | |
I just make a point in relation to the honourable member for Ealing | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
North and the second Scout group he was very concerned in relation to | :27:17. | :27:23. | |
the insurers premium tax, well, I don't think he won on that | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
particular one. However, he has won on the sugar tax, where we will save | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
the teeth of the Scout group on that particular action. Good news for | :27:35. | :27:43. | |
teeth, bad news for dentists, I suspect. But anyway. I alluded | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
earlier on to the fight that the bill was the longest finance bill | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
that has been presented to the housing 135 clauses. 792 pages, | :27:53. | :28:01. | |
clauses on pensions advice, overseas pensions, personal portfolios, | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
shareholding schemes, insurance premium tax, passenger duty, duties | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
in general, fraudulent evasion, digital reporting, data gathering | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
and umpteen schedules. And almost each of those clauses and schedules, | :28:16. | :28:22. | |
and many others, have had some degree of scrutiny, but not | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
necessarily be amount of scrutiny we would like. Given the General | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
Election has rather unhelpfully intervened in our deliberations. | :28:31. | :28:38. | |
But, as they say, that's democracy, Madam Deputy Speaker. Scrutineers | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
the fundamental role of Parliament. So when we can't get enough time for | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
that role, for that scrutiny role, we need to ensure measures are not | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
simply pushed through willy-nilly. I don't think they have been in that | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
regard. We have to have a balance between tax-raising and the | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
dampening effect that can have on business and society. That can be a | :29:03. | :29:05. | |
difficult balance. That balance has been drawn pretty well today. I've | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
referred previously to the issue about productivity and the economy. | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
And the need to raise our game in relation to that. I productivity is | :29:15. | :29:21. | |
a driver of economic growth. Whatever position, I hope that to | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
some degree this Bill will help push along about productivity growth. If | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
I may turn to be soft drinks levy the Minister has referred to. The | :29:31. | :29:37. | |
primary school sports premium over 160 million going up to 320 million | :29:38. | :29:44. | |
annually money for breakfast clubs and expansion and be fact that 57% | :29:45. | :29:51. | |
of the public support the levy and obesity Alliance found that the levy | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
could save up to 144,000 adults and children from obesity and prevent | :29:56. | :30:02. | |
19,000 cases of type two diabetes and avoid, as I alluded to before, | :30:03. | :30:11. | |
270,000 decayed teeth. I welcome the Minister's commitment to review in a | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
couple of years in relation to advice from Public Health England. | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
Of course, some measures aren't in, some will come back and we will | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
bring measures back. We hope those measures, one way or another, will | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
be scrutinised. And on that point, I conclude. Kirsty Blackman. Thank | :30:29. | :30:41. | |
you, very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. The debate has been very | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
like this today. It has tended to be fairly quiet with not many of us | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
speaking. Can I echo the comments made about the right honourable | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
member is for Chichester and Oxford East and the honourable member for | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
Wolverhampton South East who I had the pleasure of serving on the | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
finance committee with last year and was constantly impressed by his | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
incredible level of knowledge about the things we were discussing. I'll | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
be sorry to see him go from this place. I got a few things to raise | :31:12. | :31:21. | |
in Malaysia to the Finance Bill. -- in relation to the Finance Bill. | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
We've had it curtail debate on the Finance Bill, finance member two | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
bill this year. We'll be seeing a new one in the next session. But | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
this, honestly, Madam Deputy Speaker is one of the most bizarre things | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
I've had the chance to be a part of since I was elected, this Finance | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
Bill is the fact that last week, on Tuesday, we had the second reading. | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
And on Tuesday morning everything was going to proceed as normal. We | :31:50. | :31:57. | |
were going to have two days of committee with the whole house and | :31:58. | :31:59. | |
something like six out of Public Bill Committee and two days for the | :32:00. | :32:01. | |
report stage and third reading. It is really totally bizarre. The | :32:02. | :32:19. | |
amendments we had last night and intention from the Government, it | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
was appreciated that the Government... That I received the | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
notification to withdraw from some things last night. I appreciate that | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
but it is very little notice to go through properly all of the matters | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
that are in this and to work out what the Government had to proceed | :32:35. | :32:40. | |
with. This has been very difficult to operate under the circumstances | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
and very difficult to provide the appropriate scrutiny in the lack of | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
time we have had. The SNP have done our best on this. We have spoken in | :32:52. | :32:58. | |
every section today. We are the only party other than the Government to | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
table amendments on this bill. I would like to briefly mention, | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
before I talk about the provisions in this bill, the way that this | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
Government tackles budgetary scrutiny and the standing orders in | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
the way that they are written and a that this House looks at financial | :33:16. | :33:24. | |
matters. In the past, the budget process, I have mentioned is | :33:25. | :33:27. | |
marginally better but it is still not great. I have mentioned a number | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
of times the better budgets report and I absolutely backed the call | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
made by organisations that made the better budget report to have the | :33:36. | :33:38. | |
public Bill Committee of the Finance Committee having a quick hearings. | :33:39. | :33:47. | |
It is important this House does that and whatever Government comes in | :33:48. | :33:54. | |
after the election should allow dealings in the Public Bill | :33:55. | :33:57. | |
Committee stage. It would make a difference to the level of scrutiny | :33:58. | :34:05. | |
we can provide. However, there are different individuals in the | :34:06. | :34:14. | |
Treasury Committee as to the Finance Committee. The Minister knows that | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
once I start ringing something up, I am not good at letting it go. I | :34:18. | :34:28. | |
realise that these were put in place by this Government. In terms of the | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
specific provisions by this bill, I welcome, as I said earlier today, | :34:34. | :34:35. | |
some of the things the Government has taken it. I welcome the decision | :34:36. | :34:45. | |
making tax digital. It would be better to bring it back following | :34:46. | :34:47. | |
the general election and I appreciate that that decision was | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
taken. I also particularly welcome the withdrawing of the dividend | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
threshold. I think that was something that we did not feel like | :34:58. | :35:00. | |
we had adequate time to screw them eyes and they appreciate the | :35:01. | :35:02. | |
Government taking that measure to the bill. Just a few things that | :35:03. | :35:11. | |
are, I suppose, not on the bill or that have got to the third reading | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
stage. Around tax evasion, a new cause we tabled in religion to | :35:16. | :35:27. | |
tax evasion. And to bring back a proper full report on all other ways | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
in which international comparisons have been successful in tackling | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
tax. I get that there might be peace deal bits of work being done on the | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
Tassel report on this would be incredibly helpful for the | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
Government going forward to nature the right decisions are being taken | :35:44. | :35:46. | |
about tackling tax evasion. We are also clear that there is still not | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
enough detection for whistle-blowers and that we are indebted to those | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
individuals that do come forward and we would like to encourage them to | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
do so. Anything the Government can do around that would be welcome. On | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
self-employment, last year byes-mac Finance Bill made some changes to | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
those employed through intermediaries and this Finance Bill | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
has done the same. And the changes that the transfer proposed in | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
relation to national insurance and road back on, all of those are | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
piecemeal changes to self-employment. If the comment is | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
going to did anything with self-employment, any is to do it | :36:25. | :36:26. | |
properly and look at everything that affects the taxation of self | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
employed individuals and it needs to look at the tax credits of those | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
individuals. Also in things like childcare vouchers. All those things | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
need to be taken in the round, in addition to pension entitlement, | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
holiday entitlement, maternity leave entitlement and in a proper tax | :36:45. | :36:52. | |
system that should appropriately tax individuals are self-employed, as is | :36:53. | :36:54. | |
providing them with appropriate benefits and encourage them to start | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
businesses and to lead employment and begin their own business or | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
leave unemployment and begin their own business. The more that we can | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
do on that and a less shifting the Pope posts, the better the situation | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
we will be in. Touching on oil and gas... The UK Government could do | :37:13. | :37:18. | |
more around oil and gas. UK Government could do more than giving | :37:19. | :37:21. | |
confidence to oil and gas industry. I would very much like it if the UK | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
Government were to look at small pools and changes they could make to | :37:28. | :37:29. | |
attack tax region around small pools. UK Government committed to | :37:30. | :37:35. | |
maximising the economic strategy put in place by Sir Ian Wood. They have | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
said that I'm back that strategy. However, they are not following this | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
up with enough measures. Oil and gas has not been given the level of | :37:46. | :37:48. | |
priority by this Government that it should be given. It is incredibly | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
important to the economy of the UK as a whole as well as the economy of | :37:53. | :38:00. | |
Scotland. There has been a massive reduction in a number of jobs in | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
recent years. I'm not asking for this Government to significantly | :38:06. | :38:07. | |
reduce the rate of tax for oil and gas. What I'm this Government to do | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
is looking at incentivising investment and looking at those more | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
difficult to reach pools. I am not asking for massive giveaways. It | :38:19. | :38:26. | |
could be a net benefit to Government, not costing anything. I | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
do not ask for an amazing, massive reduction in headline rates of tax. | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
I asked for the Government to listen to companies that are coming | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
forward, asking for small and reasonable changes, some of which | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
will increase the UK Government's tax take, rather than decrease it. | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
Again, I ask the Government to look particularly at the amendment is | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
have brought forward. Particularly at the suggestions we are making. I | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
appreciate the changes they are hoping to make in late light assets. | :38:55. | :39:03. | |
-- late light them at life assets. Those are long overdue. As soon as | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
that can be lamented, the better. -- implemented. We are looking at, | :39:09. | :39:15. | |
whatever Government comes in, having a new budget and a new finance bill. | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
We have not seen, from this Government, any recognition. We are | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
nearly one year on from the Brexit referendum. It is nearly one year on | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
from Matt and we have not seen any discussion of finances. | :39:32. | :39:48. | |
-- from the Brexit foot. We have not seen any recognition of any of these | :39:49. | :39:57. | |
things after nearly a year on. I hope that when this parliament comes | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
back to new session with the new Government, we could see the | :40:03. | :40:04. | |
Government recognising the financial impact that Brexit Bill have. We can | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
see them recognising the impact it will have on jobs. And we will see | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
real changes and real recognition of this Government taking into account | :40:16. | :40:23. | |
the effects of Brexit. During the Coalition Government, | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
fiscal policy was unnecessarily tight. And our constituents have | :40:30. | :40:36. | |
paid the price on that. We have now moved to a position in seven years | :40:37. | :40:44. | |
where, despite the Prime Minister in her election campaign saying that | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
taxes will be lower under a Conservative Government is | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
re-elected, not actually seeing lower than what. Secondly, this | :40:55. | :40:57. | |
year, on projections, which might not come to pass, of course, | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
taxation as a percentage of national income is likely this year to be the | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
highest in peace time in the United Kingdom. That is not exactly a low | :41:07. | :41:13. | |
tax Government. And I think trying to pretend that one is, as a | :41:14. | :41:20. | |
Conservative Party Government, is unfortunate in a general election. | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
And it also leads to what I regard as an unfortunate trend on both | :41:25. | :41:31. | |
sides of this House to talk about taxation as if it were an evil in | :41:32. | :41:37. | |
and of itself. Taxation pays for the public services which all our | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
constituents enjoy. And I have no problem with taxation if it is fair | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
and sustainable, as the minister called about in her opening remarks. | :41:48. | :41:54. | |
And if, as she also talked about, we can't down on tax avoidance. I only | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
wish that this outgoing Government and to ever incoming Government were | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
a little more forceful in public register of beneficial ownership of | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
offshore held accounts and funds, particularly since about half of | :42:10. | :42:16. | |
that amount, as far as we can tell, around the world, is held in British | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
Overseas Territories. So the United Kingdom has a huge role to play. I | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
salute the role that the Conservative Government has thus far | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
played in this, but there is father to go and I hope that on the 9th of | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
June, we will have an incoming Labour Government which will take it | :42:34. | :42:40. | |
a lot further. I have done and seven at eight Finance bills of my time in | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
this House, and some honourable members know, this will be my final | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
speech to the House because I am retiring at the general election and | :42:49. | :42:51. | |
I will be putting my feet up in the garden and watching the rest of you | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
working. But I think that one has to try, as the right honourable member | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
for Chichester, who has rightly been praised earlier in the debate, | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
always tried, to be realistic about what is going on. And what is going | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
on is that under the Coalition Government and the Conservative | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
Government in the past two years, inequality of income has fallen. | :43:15. | :43:24. | |
That is true. Unemployment has fallen fantastically. In round | :43:25. | :43:31. | |
terms, employment is up by 2.75 million. That is a fantastic | :43:32. | :43:38. | |
achievement. About one in five of those new jobs is a zero hours | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
contracts and not all zero hours contracts are decried by those who | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
have them. The proportion of workers who are working part-time in that | :43:46. | :43:54. | |
seven years has hardly changed. There will be some who are working | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
part-time and would prefer to work full-time, but many of those who are | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
working part-time, including within that 2.75 million more jobs, choose | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
to do so. And they should have the flexibility to do so. But that | :44:08. | :44:15. | |
achievement on falling unemployment has been bought on a sea of debt. | :44:16. | :44:24. | |
The national debt in the last seven years has gone up by almost 70%. And | :44:25. | :44:31. | |
enormous amount in peace time in seven years. It is an enormous | :44:32. | :44:39. | |
amount. And the deficit, I have to say, to this outgoing Government, it | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
is a bit like Gordon Brown's old and real. -- golden rule. It was a car | :44:44. | :44:52. | |
that kept getting kicked down the road, that Government borrowing | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
should, on the economic cycle, be balanced. And then Gordon Brown, as | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
Chancellor and Prime Minister, kept redefining what the economic cycle | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
was. To try to make the figures work-out. With this Government and | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
the previous Government, the annual deficit, which is still enormous, is | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
always going to be sorted out in five years' time. Well, I am not | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
sure how many of my constituents believe that any more. Particularly | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
in a year when I think I am right in saying that the Government of | :45:28. | :45:34. | |
Greece, through measures which I think, certainly many on this site | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
allows adding Government benches Woodside Dommett site to painful and | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
disruptive and unacceptable, but based upon those measures, forced | :45:44. | :45:50. | |
upon them by the International Monetary Fund, will record surplus | :45:51. | :45:53. | |
on its current account. Here we have on the wealthy UK, with the | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
Government which, itself and predecessors for five years before, | :45:59. | :46:00. | |
were saying, we want to get the deficit down and we will get it down | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
in five years. And it is with another five years. | :46:06. | :46:12. | |
They are doing far, far worse than the Government of Greece that is an | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
indictment of seven of Conservative government. My constituents have had | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
the pain, but they have not had the game. Inequality of wealth, in has | :46:24. | :46:36. | |
increased markedly. And that is not only something which I, as a | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
socialist finds distasteful, but I as a citizen of the United Kingdom | :46:41. | :46:47. | |
worry about because we did it that they face ID becomes too an equal | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
then there will be, or there is a severe risk of social fractures that | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
if a society becomes to any goal. We see it in the housing market where | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
we have a situation where many people will never have affordable | :47:04. | :47:10. | |
housing. They will never have it. And those who do have affordable | :47:11. | :47:17. | |
housing will often in the next generation get it because parents or | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
grandparents did, and those individuals inherited a deposit or | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
house from earlier generations in their family who owned property. | :47:27. | :47:34. | |
That trend will lock in inequality in our society. Inequality which | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
both sides of this house professed to decry and wish to address. And it | :47:40. | :47:46. | |
will be logged into the housing market because, in the last ten | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
years in particular in the United Kingdom, we have not built or | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
created nearly enough housing units, and it has huge, huge social | :47:57. | :48:03. | |
implications when that trend creates rigid inequality which will not be | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
possible to overcome, whatever we do on schooling in this country. It | :48:09. | :48:16. | |
will be locked in. Do you inherited own payments on your house, or don't | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
you? That is very sad for our society. A society in which average | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
earnings are still below what they were nine years ago, before the | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
crash. That's average earnings. Average incomes have risen, because | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
of the triple lock. That average earnings are still below. That is | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
not all the Government's fault. They have made good steps, I don't think | :48:43. | :48:45. | |
they've gone far enough on the national living wage, they are | :48:46. | :48:54. | |
converts. They opposed the minimum wage on principle in 1998, but this | :48:55. | :49:00. | |
government has gone a lot further than I and many on these benches | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
expected it to do in terms of a statutory minimum wage. I don't | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
think they've gone far enough and I think that's bad for social | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
cohesion, poverty in this country and economic growth. In a capitalist | :49:14. | :49:22. | |
society one way to drive productivity, one way, is higher | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
wages. So that there is a substitution of capital for Labour | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
and when you substitute capital for Labour, very often, you get higher | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
productivity. Overall. Not in every case, but very often. But we do need | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
to do more. The Government has made some steps in this regard. We don't | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
think they've gone nearly far enough. As related to technical | :49:49. | :49:56. | |
training and upscaling the workforce, I have to say the | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
Conservative benches have been very late to that party. We have a target | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
of 3 million apprentices which may or may not be met. One fears it may | :50:05. | :50:10. | |
be met through redefining courses and training schemes which many of | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
us would not regard as apprenticeships to call them | :50:15. | :50:17. | |
apprenticeships and make figures work. That is always a danger. But | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
it is laudable that the Government wants to take policies from Labour | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
and increase the level of training and technical training in our | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
economy. This finance bill will help, somewhat, in that regard. But | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
what we've also had in the last seven years, and it's not addressed | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
in this bill, is insufficient infrastructure spending and we have | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
had and are having, what I regard, as inappropriate infrastructure | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
spending. We are going to be spending less, as I hope, about ?60 | :50:50. | :50:56. | |
billion or more on the a jest to railway line which is a very bad | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
allocation of capital for transport spending. -- HS2. We are on course | :51:01. | :51:10. | |
to be spending too much higher literacy prizes, indirectly, money | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
on Hinkley point see nuclear director which will be built by a | :51:15. | :51:19. | |
bankrupt French company, only still going because it's been bailed out | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
by its state owners, the French government. Using a design which has | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
never worked anywhere in the world, being tried in Finland and in | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
Normandy and those project are years overdue. And use over budget. | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
Perhaps, massively overbudget, I should say. But is this government's | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
approach to English are just spending. We on these benches | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
recognise that they have started to borrow some of our policies in terms | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
of energies and domestic energy caps. But they have not gone far | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
enough on integer to spending and have somewhat lost their way on some | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
of these big projects, I think. The final issue, for me, it was | :52:04. | :52:09. | |
mentioned by the honourable member for Aberdeen North, when she spoke | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
earlier today, Brexit. It looms over all of us and all out residuals but | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
doesn't quite loom over this finance bill which is somewhat surprising. | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
The Treasury before the referendum last summer was very keen to put our | :52:26. | :52:32. | |
projections of out what Treasury officials thought would be the | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
consequences of a Brexit wrote in that referendum. I thought that was | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
an entirely appropriate use of Treasury resources government whose | :52:42. | :52:48. | |
official was to support the United Kingdom remaining in the European | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
Union. We had all those projections, but since the 23rd of June last | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
year, it seems to me to have gone somewhat quiet in that regard. Now, | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
I appreciate that the United Kingdom is still come in round terms, 100 | :53:05. | :53:12. | |
weeks away from leaving the EU. That makes it more difficult to make | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
projections as to what is likely to happen with our economy, partly | :53:17. | :53:22. | |
because we don't know what the Brexit package will be. That, there | :53:23. | :53:29. | |
are some signs of concern in the markets about Brexit. Which I don't | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
think are adequately reflected in the financial measures proposed by | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
the outgoing government and measures proposed in this finance bill. And I | :53:41. | :53:46. | |
really think the Government, if it were, unfortunately, to my view, to | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
be re-elected, it ought to get its act together a bit more and more | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
publicly about where it sees the economy going with Brexit. I | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
appreciate, as I said, that cannot be done easily when we don't know | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
what the final package will look like, whether it will be a hard | :54:05. | :54:10. | |
Brexit with no package at all. But to reassure the markets, and to | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
reassure our constituents, whichever side they might have been an the | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
referendum vote, the Government of the day, from the 9th of June, does | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
have to be, I think, rather more open about the direction of travel | :54:25. | :54:31. | |
and what it is doing to be proactive, rather than reactive to | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
the whole process of Brexit and its effects upon the economy. Whichever | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
colour of government it is, because without that greater clarity, the | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
markets will be more concerned and more spooked, and our constituents | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
will be more concerned and more worried than they need to be. Of | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
course, nobody has a crystal ball. But a bit of projection forwards, | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
more so than has been the case I think would be helpful to all of us. | :55:04. | :55:11. | |
Here here. The question is that the bill be now read the third time, As | :55:12. | :55:15. | |
many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'.. The | :55:16. | :55:28. | |
ayes have it. The ayes habit. Health service medical supplies, cost bill, | :55:29. | :55:31. | |
lords, consideration of Lord's message. The motion to be taken is | :55:32. | :55:38. | |
to disagree to the Lords amendment three B with which it will | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
consider... Of which we will consider government amendments a and | :55:44. | :55:49. | |
B in blue. I call the Minister to move to disagree with Lords | :55:50. | :55:56. | |
amendment, three B. Mr Philip Dunn. Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to move | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
that this house disagrees with the Lords in their amendment three B. | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
But proposes, instead, amendments a and B in lieu. When we last debated | :56:06. | :56:12. | |
this bill I reminded the house of its importance and I don't post to | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
go over that ground once again. Save for noting the three primary | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
purposes of the bill which are, firstly to give powers to align | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
broadly on a statutory scheme with the controlled prices of branded | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
medicines with voluntary schemes and introducing the possibility of a | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
payment percentage for the statutory scheme. This would deliver ?90 | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
million funding for the NHS every year. Secondly, it gives us stronger | :56:39. | :56:46. | |
powers to set prices of an branded generic medicines where companies | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
charge and justifiably high prices in the absence of competition. | :56:51. | :56:56. | |
Thirdly, it is quiet companies in the supply chain for medicines, | :56:57. | :56:59. | |
medical supplies and other related products to provide as with | :57:00. | :57:05. | |
information. We intend to use this information to operate our pricing | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
schemes and reimburse community pharmacies for the products they | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
dispense. And assure ourselves that the supply chain, or specific | :57:14. | :57:19. | |
products, provide good value for money for the NHS and the taxpayer. | :57:20. | :57:24. | |
During the passage of the bill in the other place, we agreed with 23 | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
amendments, made by their Lordships, and those we accept have made this a | :57:31. | :57:36. | |
better bill. We were Jack did just a single amendment. And despite the | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
strengths of our art and the other place has now made amendment three | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
B. Which, to all intents and purposes has the same effect as the | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
original amendment. It would introduce a duty on the Government | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
to exercise its functions to control costs and take into account the need | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
to promote and support a growing life sciences sector. To ensure | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
patients have access to new medicines. As I explained previously | :58:03. | :58:10. | |
to this house, this amendment, which is no different in fact, would | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
undermine one of the core purposes of the bill to enable the Government | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
to put effective cost controls in place. In our view this could | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
encourage companies to bring legal challenges where the cost controls | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
have not, in themselves, promoted growth in the life sciences | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
industry. This could significantly hinder the Government's ability to | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
exercise its powers effectively to control cost. This would have a | :58:36. | :58:39. | |
particularly detrimental effect if the Government were to take action | :58:40. | :58:48. | |
to control the price of an unbranded generic medicine, where it is clear | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
that the company is exploiting the NHS. There was cross-party agreement | :58:52. | :58:58. | |
when we debated the bill. The Government might be challenged not | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
because the cost was inappropriate but the action does not promote the | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
life sciences sector. This would, of course, could be the right thing for | :59:07. | :59:12. | |
the NHS, for patients and taxpayers. The powers in the Bill that enabled | :59:13. | :59:17. | |
this kind of action have received universal, cross-party support in | :59:18. | :59:23. | |
both houses. So the debate on this issue in the other place we have | :59:24. | :59:27. | |
clarified they did not intend to undermine the core purpose of the | :59:28. | :59:31. | |
bill. Rather, the intent was to ensure there is a mechanism laid out | :59:32. | :59:35. | |
on the face of the Bill to ensure the Government causes two floors did | :59:36. | :59:39. | |
not reflect on the impact of price control schemes in terms of impact | :59:40. | :59:45. | |
on the industry. And access to cost-effective medicines. So with | :59:46. | :59:51. | |
this clarity the Government is now putting forward an amendment in lieu | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
of Lord's's amendment CBE, which will achieve that intent without | :59:56. | :59:58. | |
undermining the core purpose of the bill. Consultation requirements are | :59:59. | :00:06. | |
already set out in section 236 of the NHS act. Riots implementation of | :00:07. | :00:12. | |
any new Star Trek price control implements and is. This amendment, | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
-- statutory price control implements. They must be consulted | :00:18. | :00:24. | |
on before proceeding with a new statutory scheme. These are, | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
firstly, economic consequences for the life sciences industry in the | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
UK. Secondly, consequences for the economy. And thirdly, consequences | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
for patients, to whom health service medicines are to be supplied and for | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
other health service patients. The acquirement is framed in this way in | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
order not only to consider the economic consequences for the life | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
sciences industry, and for patients who may benefit from new medicines, | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
but also to balance these factors against widely considerations. I am | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
sure the house will agree that while a thriving life sciences industry | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
under access to new medicines are highly desirable, this must not come | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
at any cost. It is the Government responsibility to achieve the right | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
balance and to be held accountable it. | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
As with all consultations, Government must give all responses | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
due consideration before finalising policy. Setting these particular | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
requirements out in the face of the bill does not limit the scope of | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
consultation, offering both Government and consultees the | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
opportunity to give all relevant issues proper consideration. The | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
amendment is specific to section 260 three. That is to say, the powers to | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
put a statutory scheme in place for medicines. Where action is being | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
taken against a specific incident the Mac incidence of high prices for | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
individual medicine, it would not be appropriate for this to be subject | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
to such wide-ranging consultation. In these cases, the NHS Act already | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
requires consultation with the appropriate industry body or bodies, | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
prior to exercise of his powers. With this amendment, the Government | :02:08. | :02:15. | |
has, we believe, address the substance of the concerns raised by | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
the honourable gentleman at each stage, to his credit, for | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
consistency, in consideration of this bill. And by members and the | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
other place. I hope people therefore welcome this amendment am and I beg | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
to move. The question is that this House disagrees with the Lord's in | :02:33. | :02:43. | |
the amendment, 3B. I would like to thank the Minister | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
for approaching the outstanding areas of concern in such a | :02:47. | :02:48. | |
conciliatory manner, which has allowed us to approach this | :02:49. | :02:56. | |
amendment the Government has brought forward today. We are keen that the | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
NHS gains better control of the costs of medicines and close some of | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
the loopholes in the system that has been subjected blatant abuses in | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
recent years, as we have discussed in the passage of this bill. The | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
negotiations on the amendment where, by their nature, speedy but no less | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
effective. I doubt we will be so fortunate with Brexit discussions on | :03:15. | :03:21. | |
the future. Jeremy Clarkson of the bill, we have heard very clearly the | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
current state of affairs which does not serve the Asians or taxpayer as | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
well as they could. -- during the discussion of the bill. | :03:31. | :03:42. | |
Where that to be applied to health spending across the board, many of | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
the exchanges we have had across the dispatch box in the last 12 months | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
of soul could have been a little less lively. Despite this increase | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
in spending, the Minister will be aware that there are serious | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
concerns still being raised about the availability of new treatments. | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
I would like to take a few moments to read some of the specific | :04:03. | :04:09. | |
concerns patients have had. And the budget impact test that could see | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
introduction is of treatments that cost ?20 million a year delayed by | :04:14. | :04:15. | |
three years. We are still concerned that some patients with certain | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
conditions will be this report only affected by this. One condition, | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
type two diabetes, there are several drugs available for it that cost the | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
NHS more than ?20 million a year due to the patient number involved. | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
There is one that costs ?21 million, and other cost 41 million, another | :04:35. | :04:42. | |
?77 million and lastly another that ?70 million. Can the Government tell | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
us and estimated number of patients that could be affected by the | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
introduction of the impact test? Can the Minister confirm this will | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
impact on patients' right to treatment under the NHS | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
Constitution? We have seen the 18 week consultation effectively | :05:05. | :05:13. | |
abandoned. Also of concern is the fact that this could apply to end of | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
life drugs. For those patients, there is no time to waste. What can | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
the Minister do to ensure that valuable time is not wasted when | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
drugs at the impact tests for those patients? Coming back to the | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
amendment, we are content that it takes us to more or less the place | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
that previous amendments did without having the effect of binding the | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
hand of the Government totally. We welcome concessions made, which | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
means we support this new amendment. By requiring the Secretary of State | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
to consult on enacting any powers and dumber on the life sciences | :05:50. | :05:51. | |
sector and most importantly, patients, we have an extra safeguard | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
that we hope will ensure the right balance is struck between | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
controlling cost, promoting life sciences industry and making sure | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
patients get access to new treatments as quickly as possible. | :06:04. | :06:12. | |
We consider it just as important for the other two areas to be getting | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
into a coma and other new rules are developed. This is important because | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
at the moment we have significance in terms -- significant concerns | :06:21. | :06:30. | |
about the stifling of investment. On that, the imminent departure of | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
European medicines agency from these shores is against a worrying | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
backdrop of investment falling in the sector by 20% in just over three | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
years. And the reduction in investment is not just about the | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
impact this has on growth and jobs in the country. It also has a | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
profound impact on patients as well. International comparisons of health | :06:50. | :06:59. | |
technology assessment report in May showed cancer patients are missing | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
out on innovative treatments being made available. For every 100 | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
European patients who can access new medicines in the first year | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
available, just 15 UK patients had this same access. This is clearly | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
something we need to reverse. We hope this amendment will go some way | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
to reversing that trend in for a consultation process that requires | :07:20. | :07:21. | |
the Secretary of State to specifically consider these issues | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
will mean that if the consultation is genuine, if it is open-minded and | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
involves a complete conscientious and considered examination of the | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
responses to it, then we will hopefully see a system that protects | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
and supports our industry. But, most importantly, reaffirms one of the | :07:38. | :07:44. | |
founding principles of the NHS. Treatment should be free to all at | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
the point of use. That is something we are all keen to defend. In | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
conclusion, we will support this amendment and keep a close eye on | :07:56. | :07:57. | |
the many issues that we have raised today which I'm not going to go away | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
just because there is now a general election. -- which are not going to | :08:02. | :08:10. | |
go away. This will be my last appearance in the chamber before the | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
general election. I would like to thank you for your courtesy in this | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
place. Behind-the-scenes, and offer what goes on to make sure these | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
debates have a coherence and fluency that might appear effortless to the | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
outside work. We can assure them, it most definitely is not. I have found | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
everyone behind-the-scenes yet to be very helpful and well, and it has | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
made it easy for me to do my job. On that note, I will finish by saying | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
that this has been much more than a job to me. It has been a privilege | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
of my life to represent the de Boer Ellesmere Port and felt that at the | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
election, I have the opportunity to continue to do that. -- represent | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
the people of Ellesmere Port. I thank for his extreme kind words and | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
courtesy, which he always shows at the dispatch box and in the chamber. | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
Thank you very much, Madam Deputy is bigger. Like the honourable member | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
for Ellesmere Port, obviously this will be my last time speaking in the | :09:15. | :09:22. | |
chamber before dissolution. As a newbie, I would like to be tribute | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
to the staff of the House have made it much easier for us to come in | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
here than we had expected. I am also glad that it is on a bill that, in | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
actual fact, despite some abroad is agreement is, we have worked cross | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
party across the chamber to actually do a piece of work that we all | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
agreed needed to be done. I'll is a welcome the Government's amendment, | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
although I would have to say I would have laid out the three sections the | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
other way round. Because actually the whole point of the NHS and the | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
reason we're discussing it is the number one importance being patient | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
access. I would not have put them third, I would put them first. | :10:02. | :10:08. | |
Because I think it is really an issue for patients and it really is | :10:09. | :10:10. | |
a fear for patients not getting access to drugs. As was mentioned by | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
your noble member from the Labour front bench is, we have a | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
significant delay that is measurable in comparison to other countries. -- | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
by the honourable member. If certain types of cancer appeared, -- | :10:27. | :10:38. | |
compared, we can see that some... Where we fall down is with people | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
with advanced disease and that is why we must not delay. In regards to | :10:44. | :10:50. | |
the budget assessment, the concern I have is that we will interact with | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
the loss of the European Medicines Agency. I am not talking about | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
losing their agency itself, but not being part of the scheme. We know | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
that there is a danger that drugs are being presented for licensing in | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
the United Kingdom at a later date than they currently are for the US | :11:08. | :11:09. | |
and the EU as being major markets. It is likely that we would be due -- | :11:10. | :11:18. | |
be behind Japan. If we are seen as a hostile market, and I don't mean we | :11:19. | :11:21. | |
should simply hand over any amount of money, but if we are seen as a | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
hostile market where there is an expected delay of expensive drugs | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
for three years, there is a danger that international pharmaceuticals | :11:30. | :11:36. | |
will say, do you know what, we will license everywhere else and then | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
come back to the UK in a few years. That means our patients would have a | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
significantly delayed access. We need to think about how that feeds | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
in to things like trials and research. That is when it does feed | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
into the life sciences system. Because if we are not using what is | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
considered the gold standard drug at the time of the new international | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
trial, we will not be able to take part in the comparison of that gold | :12:02. | :12:11. | |
standard with a new drug. The UK has led the EU research network, the | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
biggest in the world. And we have been major players in that. It is | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
important that we realise how building in this delay from NHS | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
England could undermine that. Surely it should be part of the Nice | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
process. It should be clear to pharmaceuticals that when they come | :12:32. | :12:34. | |
as a drug, the prize, what process they have to go through, what | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
evidence they will have to bring forward and how they will have to | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
negotiate and bring forward a price. And I fear that we will have a delay | :12:41. | :12:47. | |
in drugs being licensed. That will affect us in Scotland, even though | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
Nice decisions do not apply to us. If a drug is simply not licensed | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
here, it will be irrelevant for the Scottish Medicines Consortium and it | :12:56. | :13:02. | |
might not choose to fund it because it is an unlicensed medicine. I | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
think we need to be looking at how the loss of the European Medicines | :13:07. | :13:17. | |
Agency Dental Will Work With This. -- will work with this. The drugs it | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
will hit his new cancer drugs because they are expensive. It will | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
hit drugs for new diseases that the MA have led on because they are | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
bespoke and inevitably and -- expensive. But if someone came up | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
with a fabulous cure for dementia, the budget assessment would be | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
triggered. I thank her for giving way. I agree with her about what she | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
says about the European drugs agency. I have had lots of letters | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
regarding that from people who are concerned about it. The results also | :13:56. | :14:02. | |
the delay in the Government actually being a price. I sometimes think | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
that these drugs companies take the Government to the cleaners. I thank | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
him for his intervention but that is obviously why the Government are | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
trying to have this bill, to have a degree of control and do not have | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
just run away drugs costs. Of course we agree with that and that is in | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
the bill. But it is trying to have that there is a predictable system | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
of licensing in the UK where a pharmaceutical company will know | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
what they have to do and then to the table. -- bring. It might mean that | :14:33. | :14:39. | |
there has to be more flexible digital only Nice process. But to go | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
through the Nice process and be defined as a cost-effective drug and | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
then hit another barrier that is less predictable, that is not good. | :14:49. | :14:56. | |
The danger of this is that this will affect us in Scotland just as much | :14:57. | :14:59. | |
as in England, regardless of what the drug funding decisions would be, | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
because licensing is reserved. The Government need to take that into | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
account because, as I say, in the order that it is in here, patients | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
are thought whereas I think patients come first. -- patients are third. | :15:13. | :15:20. | |
Thank you. I had not intended to make a significant response in light | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
of this debate but I cannot resist the opportunity, as other colleagues | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
are spoken have taken advantage of the fact that it is their final | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
appearance in this Parliament at the dispatch box, speaking for their | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
parties. So I cannot really resist the opportunity to join that | :15:36. | :15:42. | |
particular club. Underwood like to follow the honourable gentleman in | :15:43. | :15:44. | |
thanking Members of the House for the work that they did. -- I would | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
like. Both in committee and on the floor of the House, in passage of | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
this bill. I would like to congratulate the honourable | :15:54. | :15:54. | |
gentleman, whose peaks of the opposition and Elmden -- Ellesmere | :15:55. | :16:02. | |
Port, who has given us a valedictory perhaps suggesting he will not be | :16:03. | :16:05. | |
returning to this House. In some respects I would welcome mat and in | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
others I would regret it because he has been a very cooperative | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
colleague in his bill. I would also like to place unrecognised thanks to | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
the honourable lady to Central Ayrshire for her contributions to | :16:17. | :16:17. | |
the bill. I would like to thank my | :16:18. | :16:26. | |
Parliamentary Private sector who has been a stalwart supporter and the | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
departmental whip who has joined as in his place today for the work he's | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
done to work the Department of Health, not always the smoothest | :16:36. | :16:46. | |
ride for government whips. But in response to the comments made by the | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
honourable gentleman on the budget impact tests. I think it was a night | :16:50. | :16:57. | |
tried when his challenge for me to identify whether certain specific | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
drugs would be caught by this test or not, and what I can say, of | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
course, is that this applies for new drugs, drugs already licensed and on | :17:08. | :17:09. | |
the list which won't because by the test because they are already | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
licensed and in use. The intent which came through the consultation | :17:16. | :17:18. | |
which concluded in January was that it shouldn't be seen as a threshold | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
which would have a direct impact on the applicability of these drugs. It | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
was designed to provide an opportunity for renegotiating scope | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
for the NHS to try and get a better price when a drug which would have a | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
significant cost to the NHS was in prospect. So although the honourable | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
lady is concerned about the delay of the impact of this bill, and the | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
delay from the masts of the DMA. We don't see this impacting in quite | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
the way she does. We think it will impact in one in five new medicines | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
being brought forward for use in this country. We have, as we've | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
said, on repeated occasions a strong desire to see a vibrant life | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
sciences industry in this country. They have been significant | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
investments in this country since the referendum on the 23rd of June, | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
and with this bill in prospect, so we don't have quite the same fears | :18:19. | :18:27. | |
as have been expressed today. Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
before I beg to move this amendment I would like to say to a colleague | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
from the opposite benches who is here on the previous debate, and | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
served on the committee, the member for Wolverhampton South West has had | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
a distinguished career in this house, and has served on finance | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
bills in the past with me, ad nauseam, and I was therefore | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
pleased, but some trepidation to see him put himself forward to serve on | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
the bill committee here, and he lived up to all expectations. I wish | :19:00. | :19:06. | |
him well. The question is that this has disagrees with the Lords in | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
their amendment three B. Decision-macro. The ayes habit. With | :19:12. | :19:18. | |
the leave of the house we will take government amendments a and B in | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
lieu of Lords Amendments three B together. The Minister to move | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
formally. The decision is that the amendments be made, as many of the | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
opinions they are eyed, of the country no? The ayes habit. | :19:34. | :19:45. | |
Do we take them all separately, or... ? With the leave of the house | :19:46. | :19:56. | |
I will take motions number four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
in 11 together. The Minister to move. The question is as on the | :20:02. | :20:11. | |
order papers. Of the opinions they are icon on the country no. The ayes | :20:12. | :20:13. | |
habit. The petition of residents of Glasgow | :20:14. | :20:29. | |
North West. A similar petition has been signed by 640 people and a | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
further 446 people online. It declares that Post Office Limited | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
has announced that the Post Office on an avenue in Drumchapel is under | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
threat of closure. This provides a vital service for many local | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
residents, the last of which would have a detrimental effect and the | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
impact on the wider community in Drumchapel as well as causing | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
considerable concern for staff. The opportunity to franchise the current | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
office, this could endanger the ongoing provision of services and | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
jobs in the local area as well as the franchise's current, location in | :21:07. | :21:15. | |
the heart of the community. It is noticeable just how busy counters | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
aren't how strongly the community feels about the proposal. The | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
Government to call upon the post office to halt any plans to close | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
the Drumchapel Post Office and ensure that these services and jobs | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
can be maintained and protected in the local area. | :21:37. | :21:53. | |
Petition, Drumchapel. This. I'd like to put forward a petition against | :21:54. | :22:10. | |
cuts in magazines receipt signed by 156 people, who signed online. We | :22:11. | :22:21. | |
urge the Secretary of State for Education to reconsider the former | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
to insurance that Calderdale schools do not lose out and no school | :22:25. | :22:26. | |
receives less than 4800 per pupil. Mind you. Petition, school funding | :22:27. | :22:56. | |
formulae in Calderdale. See Lucas. I rise to present a petition of | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
residents of Wrexham who declared that the petition recognises the | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
long military tradition of Wrexham in North Wales and its relationship | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
with the Royal Welch Fusiliers and Royal Electrical and Mechanical | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
Engineers and declare they are concerned about the pros all to move | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
battalion headquarters from Wrexham to Bristol away from the area which | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
as heard the British Army in Wales for so many years. The petitioners | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
request of the House of Commons urged the Government to retain the | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
current 101 Battalion Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers | :23:33. | :23:33. | |
in Wrexham. Here, here. Definitely! Petition, Royal edge cool mechanical | :23:34. | :23:54. | |
engineers at Hightown barracks, Wrexham. I rise to present the | :23:55. | :24:06. | |
petition of residents in the constituency of Clwyd South, of | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
which there are several hundred signatories based on the same | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
petition as that of my honourable friend the member for Wrexham. Our | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
deep concerns on this particular issue. The petitioners request that | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
the House of Commons urges the Government to retain the current 101 | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
battalion, Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers in Wrexham. | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
It's time the Government listened, Madam Deputy Speaker. | :24:35. | :24:49. | |
Petition, the closure of a medical centre. Sorry, the Royal Electrical | :24:50. | :24:58. | |
and Mechanical Engineers, Wrexham. I apologise, sorry. Bank you, Madam | :24:59. | :25:06. | |
Deputy Speaker, I rise to present a petition signed by 421 residence in | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
the red carpet assiduously. This declares that the decision to close | :25:12. | :25:18. | |
the medical centre will leave over 4000 patients, many of whom are | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
elderly, without a medical practice and require them to travel to a | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
neighbouring village to register with a GP. Petitioners request the | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
House of Commons to urge the Government to prevent the closure of | :25:31. | :25:31. | |
the medical centre. So they should! Thanks, very much. Petition, the | :25:32. | :25:52. | |
closure of a medical centre. Iain Murray. Bank you, I rise to present | :25:53. | :26:00. | |
a petition signed by over 4000 residents of Edinburgh South, the | :26:01. | :26:03. | |
petition declared that the Government has forced a | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
transformation programme on the post office that has placed local | :26:07. | :26:09. | |
branches in jeopardy. Following a report carried out it found that | :26:10. | :26:16. | |
closures had been bad for customers, ranking franchises were slunk | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
round-ups is across a range of indicators including queue times, | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
service times, customer services and advice on products, disabled access | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
and counter positions. The post office had already spent money | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
refurbishing the offices and is now closing and franchising with ?5.9 | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
million spent since 2010 reversion 59 offices. They announced they will | :26:38. | :26:44. | |
close in 2016, an average of ?100,000 per branch. Petitioners | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
request the House of Commons urge the Government to suspend the | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
closures and instead ensure the post office works with chrome branches | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
including my morning office to make sure they are more efficient and | :26:58. | :27:08. | |
profitable. -- my Morningside office. Bank you. Morningside. This | :27:09. | :27:18. | |
franchising. I rise to present a petition of some | :27:19. | :27:34. | |
1600 signatures of residents in my constituency. This petition declares | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
that current government proposals for a fairer funding schools do not | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
achieve their funding for pubertal in my constituency. They, and other | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
pupils in the Cheshire East local authority area would be the lowest | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
funded in the country. A level of funding local headteacher state | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
would not enable them to provide the standard of education, facilities | :27:58. | :28:00. | |
and support which are pupils deserve. I fully support this | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
petition. And the petitioners therefore request that the House of | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
Commons urges the Government to review the proposed funding from a | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
to reflect a fairer level of funding for local schools to ensure that | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
children in the local authority area of Cheshire East have the same | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
opportunities as children in similar schools and other local authorities. | :28:22. | :28:39. | |
Find you. There are funding for pubertal | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
I also rise to present a petition on the fear funding for all schools of | :28:45. | :29:03. | |
over 1500 residents of Cheshire East, including 900 from | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
Macclesfield. Also including residence in the constituency of my | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
honourable friend. Who, due to his ministerial role could not do so | :29:13. | :29:15. | |
himself and asked me to do this on his behalf. I am pleased to see him | :29:16. | :29:22. | |
in his behalf on the front bench. The petitioner has requested that | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
the House of Commons urges the Government to review its funding | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
formula for schools to ensure all children have access to properly | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
funded education and invest in the future of our country. The | :29:34. | :29:35. | |
petitioners therefore remain, etc. Petition, fairer funding formula for | :29:36. | :29:53. | |
school pupils in the Macclesfield assiduously and Cheshire is local | :29:54. | :30:02. | |
authority area. I beg to move that this house may now adjourn. The | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
question is that this house do now adjourn. Andy Burnham. Buying queue, | :30:06. | :30:12. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. Through you, can I thank Mr Speaker for giving me | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
this opportunity to make what will be my last speech in this house. I | :30:18. | :30:24. | |
make it on the subject of contaminated blood, for a simple | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
reason. Knowing what I know, and what I believe to be true, I | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
wouldn't be able to live with myself if I left here without putting it on | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
the official record. I will be honest, it is a speech made with a | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
sense of guilt, in that I believe we are all here, all of us, | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
collectively culpable of failing to act on evidence that is via before | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
us, if only we cared to look. And, by extent from that, failing | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
thousands of our fellow citizens who are the victims of, perhaps, the | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
greatest untold and justice in the history of this country. -- | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
injustice. I first want to explain the genesis | :31:08. | :31:17. | |
of this speech. Last year, the chair of the all-party group on | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
contaminated blood, who has done absolutely outstanding work on | :31:23. | :31:24. | |
behalf of those who have continued to struggle for truth and justice. | :31:25. | :31:31. | |
She invited me to a meeting to discuss where next for the campaign. | :31:32. | :31:39. | |
We have had the raising of expectations in the last parliament. | :31:40. | :31:41. | |
A lot of goodwill on both sides of the House. A sense that people | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
wanted to do something to help. That continued in the early part of this | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
Parliament. It continued sense building that something was going to | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
be done. But following the raising of expectations, victims now feel | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
they have been led to the top of the hill, although to be let down once | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
again. Whilst not doubting the sincerity with which it was made, | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
the Government's failure to back the apology from the former Prime | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
Minister at his last PMQs with substantial action has left people | :32:20. | :32:21. | |
filling in the wilderness all over again. -- feeling. To try and find a | :32:22. | :32:29. | |
way forward for them, my rubble friend asked me to Wheatley Group | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
about whether my experience working on their Wells-Burr campaign might | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
provide any insights that would be useful to those still campaigning | :32:37. | :32:43. | |
today after all these years for justice. Suffered. -- my honourable | :32:44. | :32:55. | |
friend asked me this year my experience. The one I thought about | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
it, the more the parallels between the two, the contaminated blood | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
scandal and Hillsborough, became clear to me. | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
Both relate to the 1980s in both resulted from appalling negligence | :33:12. | :33:19. | |
by public bodies. But also, in my view, as I will show today, both | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
have been subject to an orchestrated campaign to prevent the truth from | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
being told. It is that failure to give the victims the truth that | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
compounds the injustice and suffering that they have | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
experienced. Here is what I think is the crux of the problem. | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
Contaminated blood has always been viewed through a financial Prism. | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
That, in my view, sits the Government. It keeps the victims in | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
a position of subservience. Forced to beg for scraps of help from the | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
various funds that have been set up. Either way, let me make clear, I am | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
talking about all governments. Not this particular Government, although | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
I am talking about this Government, am talking about all governments. To | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
the stand that the Government now anything much about this scandal, | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
there is a vague sense that it is an argument about money. In my view, it | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
is in the Government's interest to keep it there. They want to do that. | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
Why? Just as with Hillsborough, if the great British bobby knew the | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
real story here, there would be such a wave of public support coming in | :34:38. | :34:44. | |
behind them that the demands for full and fair compensation simply | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
would not be able to be resisted by the Government. -- the great British | :34:51. | :34:57. | |
public. Such as with Hillsborough, when the truth was told, there was a | :34:58. | :35:00. | |
huge groundswell of support and there had to be action. I believe | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
this is why the Government is not what the truth to be told, because | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
it knows that it would face little place to go in answering those | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
calls. I have brought this debate to this House tonight, Madame David is | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
bigger, to try and break through that impasse. -- Madam Deputy | :35:18. | :35:24. | |
Speaker. I want to refocus everybody on giving victims what they have | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
never had. The truth. From what I know, I believe that this scandal | :35:30. | :35:37. | |
and thence to rekindle cover up on an industrial scale. -- amounts to a | :35:38. | :35:44. | |
criminal cover-up. I want to present direct evidence to support that | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
claim. There are hundreds of victims of this scandal who can point to | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
evidence of missing pages from the medical notes. Crucial pages. | :35:55. | :36:00. | |
Crucial pages missing from their medical notes. Of course, the | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
authorities have an excuse in his cases. -- these. They can always say | :36:06. | :36:13. | |
it was human error, they were lost, when they moved office, boxes were | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
lost and misplaced. As implausible as that excuse is, they can get away | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
with it, because how can you prove otherwise? Tonight, I want to focus | :36:24. | :36:34. | |
on a small number of specific cases which, in my view, revealed | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
deliberate, provable acts of cover-up. Which he give way? | :36:40. | :36:46. | |
I'm very grateful and I would like to pay tribute to his outstanding | :36:47. | :36:52. | |
work around the Hillsborough enquiry and what he achieved there. And | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
obviously there are still more to do. I am so grateful on behalf of | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
the APPG, right honourable friend was willing to share his experiences | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
with us in relation to contaminated blood. I want to raise a point with | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
my right honourable friend specifically, which was about the | :37:10. | :37:18. | |
Lord Owen 's request for documents. When he was the Health Minister in | :37:19. | :37:21. | |
the 1970s, he was told by officials that they had been destroyed. And | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
the archer enquiry, which I am sure my right honourable friend will make | :37:27. | :37:28. | |
reference to, found no reason why that should have happened. I know | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
that my right honourable friend will go on to talk about specific cases | :37:33. | :37:38. | |
of documents being lost or doctored in some way, but just from what | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
happened to a Government minister, and this idea of an industrial scale | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
of up, does my right honourable friend think that, actually, what | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
happened there with Lord Owen and what he's about to describe with the | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
particular individuals just shows how deep-seated this cover-up goes? | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
I think that my honourable friend has put her finger on the point. | :38:04. | :38:12. | |
Which is that, with Hillsborough, when we finally got to match up | :38:13. | :38:19. | |
documents held at a local level with those at a national level, the full | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
picture began to emerge. And it is my contention that exactly the same | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
would emerge here. That the direct examples of cover-up I am about to | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
give relating to individual cases would then be put together with what | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
we know about documents held at the national level, or indeed not held, | :38:39. | :38:46. | |
which itself implies wrongdoing. It is the putting together of that | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
picture which, in the end, gives people the truth and allows people | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
to understand how this happened. I will come directly to that point | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
later. Later in my speech. I want to focus on three cases. I highlight | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
these cases not because they are the only ones that I have seen or been | :39:05. | :39:12. | |
sent, I do it because I have met or spoken directly to the individuals | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
concerned, have a high degree of confidence in the facts, and also | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
because I believe these cases are representative of many more. So let | :39:23. | :39:30. | |
me start with the first case. A gentleman who does not want to be | :39:31. | :39:37. | |
named. Who is only named as Stewart, but I do have his full details. I | :39:38. | :39:47. | |
will give way. I think one of the reasons why this has not taken off | :39:48. | :39:54. | |
as a real campaign widely is that victims, understandably, do not want | :39:55. | :39:57. | |
to advertise to those around them what their conditioners. And I pay | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
tribute to those who have talked to Members of Parliament, even on a | :40:02. | :40:04. | |
confidential basis, so that we have ammunition. I think the right | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
honourable gentleman is absolutely correct. There is a stigma related | :40:10. | :40:17. | |
to HIV, appetite is. People do not want to openly talk about it. -- | :40:18. | :40:27. | |
hepatitis. Although I have drawn a parallel with Hillsborough, and he | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
was at standing in his support of me with that, there is one major | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
difference. On Hillsborough, the event happened on a day and everyone | :40:37. | :40:39. | |
was watching it and everyone to remember where they wear when the | :40:40. | :40:45. | |
pictures came through. -- can remember. This was a silent scandal | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
that affected people in all parts of the country, all walks of life, not | :40:50. | :40:55. | |
all from the same place. Spread out and maybe not able to organise in | :40:56. | :40:58. | |
the same way that Hillsborough campaigners could organise. That is | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
another reason why, in my view, they have not been able to move things | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
forward. The other reason that the honourable gentleman gave is true as | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
well. I will talk about Stewart. When he was six years old, he was | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
sent to Maidstone Hospital. Sorry, he was sent by Maidstone Hospital | :41:19. | :41:25. | |
for tests to see if he had haemophilia. When he was seven, they | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
wrote back and said all the tests were normal and he did not have a | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
bleeding problem. When he was eight, Stewart attended Maidstone Hospital | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
with a swollen knee. Nothing more. A swollen knee that was not | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
life-threatening and he had no bleeding problem associated with it. | :41:43. | :41:49. | |
But the hospital, Maidstone, with no warning to Stewart or his parents, | :41:50. | :41:55. | |
not all, treated him with 12 transfusions of contaminated blood | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
products over three days. And according to his medical records | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
later, this should not have happened. Maidstone Hospital then, | :42:05. | :42:14. | |
in 1986, unbeknownst to Stewart, wasn't told about it, carried out an | :42:15. | :42:22. | |
HIV and hepatitis test on him. He was never tested for hepatitis C, | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
even though his records show that the test was available at the time. | :42:26. | :42:33. | |
He was never again, tested, in 1989, or call back when other tests became | :42:34. | :42:40. | |
available. Stewart had all of his medical records, except one thing is | :42:41. | :42:43. | |
missing. The batch numbers for the contaminated blood products. He was | :42:44. | :42:50. | |
eventually told that he had an infection for hepatitis C. Listen to | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
this, Madam Deputy to go. January 2013 is when he was told that he was | :42:57. | :43:06. | |
positive for hepatitis C. -- Madam Deputy Speaker. He was also told | :43:07. | :43:13. | |
that it was too long then for him to sue court case, despite the fact | :43:14. | :43:20. | |
that what medical experts had told him was the hospital had been | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
negligent. Let me move to a second case. This case is of a woman called | :43:24. | :43:37. | |
Nicola instant Jones. -- Enston Jones. As a female diagnosed with | :43:38. | :43:47. | |
haemophilia in the 1980s, doctors denied anything was wrong with me | :43:48. | :43:50. | |
and referred to me as having psychological problems. They said | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
nothing was wrong with the treatment that they gave. She said it was not | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
unusual for haemophiliacs growing up then. It was when I was 24, in 1995, | :44:01. | :44:08. | |
that I asked a nurse if I had ever been tested for hepatitis C as my | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
mum had seen the news about haemophiliacs dying from hepatitis. | :44:13. | :44:18. | |
All the symptoms were the same as mine. The nurse laughed and said, | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
you will not have that. Then came back with my medical nods and | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
informed me that I was positive to hepatitis C from a test done in | :44:28. | :44:35. | |
1991. A test I knew nothing about. Like a true haemophiliac, and after | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
spending years of searching for answers, I had suddenly found out | :44:40. | :44:41. | |
why I had suffered health problems since childhood. But, Madam Deputy | :44:42. | :44:52. | |
Speaker, it was only later when Nicola was able to access our | :44:53. | :44:58. | |
medical notes that she found an entry for 1990, which she do to my | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
attention. I have it here now. It says on the notes, discussed | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
hepatitis C. Nicola has told me directly that it never happened and | :45:09. | :45:11. | |
it was never discussed with her in 1990. She found out for the first | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
time in 1995. But the story gets quite a lot worse, Madam Becky -- | :45:17. | :45:28. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. Nicholas said, 19 years later, little did I know | :45:29. | :45:31. | |
that I would be at a police station reporting what I believed to be a | :45:32. | :45:34. | |
criminal act and form of abuse on my own child. Once again, doctors | :45:35. | :45:44. | |
performed tests without consent. Another well-known practice that | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
haemophiliacs are sadly used to. I found out in 2013 at my | :45:50. | :45:52. | |
nine-year-old haemophiliac son had been tested for HIV and hepatitis | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
and no doubt a whole host of other viruses and pathogens, just like I | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
had been when I was younger. Given my daughter has the disorder as | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
well, there is now mired... Dead in my mind that she would have been | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
tested. I found this out dud hand in a letter by chance from another | :46:11. | :46:12. | |
professional asking if my son needed treatment abroad. -- there is no | :46:13. | :46:20. | |
doubt in my mind. It said, this haemophiliac has been tested for HIV | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
and hepatitis, which she is negative to. | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
She had never been told. She had never given consent. Surely this | :46:30. | :46:38. | |
isn't right in this day and age. In my view, that is a criminal act. To | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
test a child without parent's knowledge. Let me come onto the | :46:45. | :46:53. | |
third case, this, actually, is the most troubling of them all. It | :46:54. | :47:02. | |
relates to a gentleman called Kenneth David Bullock, Ken Bullock. | :47:03. | :47:09. | |
Ken was a very high-ranking civilian engineer who worked around the | :47:10. | :47:17. | |
world. In his later career, he spent time advising what was then called | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
the overseas development agency. He was a haemophilia. And, sadly, Ken | :47:23. | :47:32. | |
died in 1998. A very traumatic death, unfortunately. Let me just | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
read from the letter that his widow, Hazel Bullock, sent me. I am so | :47:39. | :47:48. | |
relieved to hear you are still committed to an active enquiry into | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
the contaminated blood tragedy. Between the 15th of November 1983 | :47:55. | :48:00. | |
and the 3rd of December 1983, my husband stopped being a haemophilia | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
patient who had been infected with non-A, non-B type hepatitis to being | :48:07. | :48:13. | |
a clinical alcoholic. This accusation continued and escalated, | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
during the next 15 years, completely unknown to him, he was refused a | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
liver transplant in 1998 and left to die still unaware of these appalling | :48:23. | :48:31. | |
accusations. He did not drink alcohol. Mrs Bullock has examined | :48:32. | :48:43. | |
her late husband's medical notes in detail, and again, I have them here | :48:44. | :48:51. | |
in my possession today. An entry from February 1983, on his notes, | :48:52. | :48:59. | |
acute hepatitis, it says. Then another one from March. Non-A, non-B | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
had titres which he probably obtained from cryoprecipitate, the | :49:04. | :49:11. | |
recognised treatment at the time. 1983 again. Exposure to blood | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
products, diagnosis of non-A, non-B was made. However, it would seem at | :49:17. | :49:24. | |
that point, Madam Deputy Speaker, all mention of blood products was to | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
be stopped. Very suddenly. They were never again to be found anywhere in | :49:31. | :49:38. | |
my husband's notes. From the 16th of December 1983 all the hospital | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
records referred only to alcoholic damage to the liver. I have in my | :49:43. | :49:48. | |
possession photocopies of all the following notes. December, 1983, | :49:49. | :50:00. | |
alcohol could be considered. 1994, likes a few beers at weekends. 1995, | :50:01. | :50:08. | |
alcoholic related hepatic dysfunction. 1990 five again, | :50:09. | :50:20. | |
clinical alcoholism. -- 1985 again. 1996, chronic high alcohol | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
consumption. 1998, the year Mr Bullock died, alcohol cirrhosis. Mrs | :50:26. | :50:32. | |
Bullock concludes her letter, my husband died on the 3rd of October | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
1998, at no time during this 15 years should alcohol has been | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
mentioned. My husband's rear and occasional glass of wine was | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
minimal. He never drank beer or spirits. Alcohol was never a part of | :50:48. | :50:54. | |
our lives. And he had his last glass of wine on the 18th of June 1995, my | :50:55. | :51:04. | |
60th birthday. My husband died completely and aware of these | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
accusations. That have shocked family, friends and colleagues. | :51:09. | :51:21. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, just as the evidence of amended police | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
statements provided the thread that we eventually polled to unravel the | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
Hillsborough cover-up, so I believe the evidence I have just provided | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
must now become the trigger for a wider enquiry into establishing the | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
truth about contaminated blood. There is a very disturbing echo of | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
Hillsborough, is there not, Madam Deputy Speaker? In what I have just | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
said? In that people who are the victims of negligence, by the state, | :51:53. | :52:02. | |
were suddenly the victims of smears perpetrated by those working on | :52:03. | :52:05. | |
behalf of public bodies, particularly smears related to | :52:06. | :52:12. | |
alcohol. To suggest that the disease that afflicted mixed Bullock's liver | :52:13. | :52:19. | |
was self-inflicted. It reminds me, of course, of those front-page | :52:20. | :52:22. | |
newspaper stories that appeared straight after Hillsborough that | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
alleged the Liverpool fans were drunk. It is a time-honoured tactic, | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
deflect the blame from when it should be over to someone else. Now, | :52:31. | :52:37. | |
it is of course possible, that in each of the cases I have mentioned | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
the hospitals and clinicians concerned were acting on an | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
individual basis to prevent their negligent practices being known. But | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
I have to say, I doubt this was the case. My suspicion, as I said to my | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
honourable friend a few moments ago, is that they will be documents held | :52:57. | :53:03. | |
at a national level, even by the Government, regulatory of national | :53:04. | :53:05. | |
bodies that point to a more systematic effort to suppress the | :53:06. | :53:12. | |
truth. I've got to win my possession. So I can save the | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
Minister or the Government time if they suggest there aren't any. There | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
are some. Two documents that I want to put on the official record today, | :53:22. | :53:30. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. One, a letter, sent from Stanford University's | :53:31. | :53:39. | |
medical Centre in January 1975, to the blood products laboratory, then | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
the UK Government's wholly-owned blood products operation. This | :53:43. | :53:49. | |
letter goes into great lengths, warning about the risk of the new | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
factor eight products that were coming on that to. It said, in | :53:54. | :54:01. | |
relation to one particular products, this gentleman, writing the letter, | :54:02. | :54:08. | |
a Mr Alan, he said of one product, the source of blood is 100% from | :54:09. | :54:17. | |
skid Row. Skid row derelicts, in his words. He is writing to warn the | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
British government about the blood products that are being abused. The | :54:22. | :54:30. | |
second documents is from the Oxford haemophilia Centre, sent in January | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
1982 to all haemophilia Centre directors in England. It is talking | :54:36. | :54:43. | |
about the new products coming on the market, and it says this, after | :54:44. | :54:49. | |
initial production batches may have been tested for infectivity by | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
injecting them into chimpanzees, it is unlikely the manufacturers will | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
be able to guarantee this form of quality control for future batches. | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
It is important to find out by studies inhuman beings to what | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
extent the infectivity of concentrates has been reduced. The | :55:07. | :55:12. | |
most clear-cut way of doing this is administering these concentrates to | :55:13. | :55:15. | |
patients requiring treatment to have not been exposed to large pool | :55:16. | :55:22. | |
concentrates. In other words, let's find out whether these ineffective | :55:23. | :55:24. | |
DCOM in their words come in these products by using them to be buckled | :55:25. | :55:30. | |
patients as guinea pigs. That is what this is saying. Without regard | :55:31. | :55:39. | |
for the consequences. Proof, in my view, of negligence of a very | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
serious kind indeed. And that's what brings me to the point is my | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
honourable friend raised earlier. When we have these documents, the | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
Americans warning in 1975 about blood products derived from blood is | :55:54. | :56:01. | |
taken off convicts on skid row, and then, when we have a letter going | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
out from the haemophilia Centre in Oxford, some seven years later | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
saying that they needed to be a push on trials, give them to patients so | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
we can find out if these products are infectious. My goodness! You | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
soon imagine something might need to be heading here. And that's when you | :56:21. | :56:28. | |
consider the question of a health minister's papers, entire papers, as | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
I understand, to be comprehensively destroyed. And do something they | :56:33. | :56:39. | |
called the ten year rule. I've been a minister. I've never heard of the | :56:40. | :56:42. | |
ten year rule. Have you, Madam Deputy Speaker? In ministers papers | :56:43. | :56:50. | |
destroyed without his consent? It seems to sound alarm bells to me, | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
and to suggest something is seriously amiss, Madam Deputy | :56:55. | :56:57. | |
Speaker. Will my right honourable friend give way? I wondered if my | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
right honourable friend was I shocked as I was to learn that in | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
November 1983 the Health Secretary told parliament that there is no | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
conclusive evidence that aid is transmitted by blood products. Yet | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
months earlier the department was wearing a document that said AIDS | :57:17. | :57:19. | |
was almost certainly transmitted in this way, and the advisory committee | :57:20. | :57:26. | |
on dangerous pathogens told also strong circumstantial evidence that | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
it was blood-borne. It seems, again, there was real issues about what was | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
being told to people, and parliament. And ministers must | :57:37. | :57:43. | |
never, never mislead Parliament, yet clearly, the information being given | :57:44. | :57:45. | |
to parliament back then was not correct. | :57:46. | :57:51. | |
I fear my honourable friend is right, once again. I am aware that | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
Crown immunity was applied to individuals to protect the | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
Government from litigation around this time. I think it does paint the | :58:01. | :58:09. | |
picture, Madam Deputy Speaker, and come you know, this is why we come | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
onto the need to see the papers, well, let's find out. I don't want | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
to stand here and accuse ministers in that government of anything. | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
That's not my purpose. Let's have a look at those papers. Let's see | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
whether or not there was any misleading statement given. What I | :58:27. | :58:33. | |
think we have evidence here in terms of the cases I put before the house | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
today is, number one, people used as guinea pigs. Number two, people | :58:39. | :58:44. | |
given inappropriate treatment, as Stuart was. Number three, tests | :58:45. | :58:50. | |
being done without people's knowledge or consent. Number four, | :58:51. | :58:57. | |
the results of tests, even when they revealed positive results, being | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
withheld for years, decades in some cases from those individuals. It's | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
even been suggested to me that other people, close to those people, | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
Vanguard subsequent infections from people because they didn't know they | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
had taken over you or hepatitis C. They were living their lives and | :59:16. | :59:21. | |
infected other people -- they were HIV-positive or hepatitis C | :59:22. | :59:26. | |
positive, or as we saw in the case of Ken Bullock, the falsification of | :59:27. | :59:32. | |
medical records, smooth and smears to suggest liver disease was | :59:33. | :59:34. | |
self-inflicted. These are criminal acts. Criminal acts. I will give | :59:35. | :59:45. | |
way. Can I pay tribute to him when he was sucked your state for health, | :59:46. | :59:49. | |
because I was in the Department with him at the time. Can I ask him this | :59:50. | :59:57. | |
question, are we saying that the information is immune from the Data | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
Protection Act and the Freedom of Information Act? Has this ever | :00:01. | :00:05. | |
applied? I think people have applied for documents but many have been | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
withheld. I'll come onto this point in a moment. I was a minister in the | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
Department of Health just after the Archer report had come out. And had | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
been responded to by the previous Secretary of State. I came in, and | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
that the instigation of the late Paul Goggins, sought to reopen the | :00:24. | :00:32. | |
whole issue. And received a lot of institutional resistance, if I could | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
put it that way. And yes, I stand here myself out of a sense of guilt. | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
I wish I'd done more over the years. But having pieced it all together, I | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
think the documents that are withheld would fill in some of the | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
gaps that I'm describing today. I will give way. I thank him for | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
giving way. I thank you for the work is done on this issue. The case he | :00:56. | :01:03. | |
describes, the third case he describes, surely is one of | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
defamation. Is it not the case, and would he agree that all families | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
affected, if they haven't already, must access their own medical | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
records or the medical records of family members who have passed away? | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
defamation. The number of people that have said ages are missing, | :01:21. | :01:40. | |
crucial pages are missing, there are so many examples of those. I have | :01:41. | :01:48. | |
put on record things that are provable and criminal and it cannot | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
be left there. This is where the Minister will have to answer this | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
point directly when she responds. I thank my right honourable friend | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
forgiving way. I pay tribute to him and the honourable member for the | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
work that they have done in exposing this. | :02:07. | :02:16. | |
When I had a story from my constituent who lost his wife | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
because of a contaminated blood products that had hepatitis C, I | :02:22. | :02:29. | |
came across as very sinister cover-up and I pay tribute to Mike | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
colleague for exposing it. The whole thing, it is about finance, can we | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
give them a bit more? It has kind of been helpful to the Government | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
because it has never been focusing on the issue that really should be | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
focused on. As I said at the beginning, if the truth were known, | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
the wave of support behind people struggling for the truth would have | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
been massive. The Government would have had nowhere to go, it would | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
have had to have responded. Consequently, people still | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
struggling, like the onward gentleman's constituents. I give way | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
to the honourable gentleman. It seems to me that what he's pointing | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
out three major things. The first is of those still alive who are | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
affected and families need generals held without delay. The second is to | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
have an enquiry into what went wrong all the way through, especially if | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
people have interfered with the preservation of evidence. Whether | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
people are prosecuted is a separate thing, but knowing what happened | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
matters most. But the point that Julie in my mind is that of around | :03:37. | :03:44. | |
1970 or 1971, the difference of blood the nations freely given by | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
the healthy and the point about where the honourable gentleman came | :03:49. | :03:57. | |
from an estate... This should have been passed on as soon as they had | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
any warning at all, from Stamford at anywhere else. That was the direct | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
content of the Stamford letter. I think there was a worry that the NHS | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
was using these products in a completely different context, not | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
understanding the difference between the two systems. That is the | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
Stamford letter. I do not stand Jedinak proclaiming to be an expert | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
on other people's. I am not. What I am doing here is saying what I know | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
to be wrong for the people I have spoken to and then linking it to | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
those documents to say what I believe to be the case. I might not | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
be right, but I think we need to find out whether I am right and that | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
is the point there will be putting to the Government later. I set my | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
will give way. Thank you forgiving way. I was not going to intervene, | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
but this point made by the right honourable member opposite about | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
treatment being needed and generous treatment, generous treatment is not | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
what the victims of this NHS scandal are reading. I have a constituent | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
infected by this scandal as a child at the Manchester Children's | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
Hospital. When he discovered that his cirrhosis meant, if it went | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
untreated, he had a 25% chance of having liver cancer comedy was told | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
he would be denied treatment on the NHS and the treatment he needed to | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
clear the road from his system would cost ?100,000. It was at that point | :05:19. | :05:26. | |
he decided to use the payment he had been made, that was supposed to be | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
some compensation, to try to clear the virus load out of his system. | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
That is the situation people are in, victims and at the moment, and that | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
is the situation my constituent is in. It is a disgrace. They should | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
not be fighting using their own money for their own treatment. It is | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
a total disgrace. Absolutely, Phil, fair compensation. Do not delay. Do | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
it now. Government should do that now. They raised expectations and | :05:56. | :05:57. | |
they should do it and we all supported. I will give way in a | :05:58. | :06:12. | |
moment. Mrs Bullock has been reduced to sending begging letters to the | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
Skipton fund. She is not well herself now. How can that be right? | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
We're making a woman who has lost everything make begging letters. And | :06:22. | :06:28. | |
her husband is no longer there. Her husband was possibly refused a liver | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
transplant because his notes said he was an alcoholic. It is injustice | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
upon injustice here. It is absolutely scandalous. And I hope | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
the houses now understanding why I could not live with myself, as I | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
said at the beginning, if I left this place without telling it | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
directly, what I know to be true. I give way to my right honourable | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
friend. I am very grateful. He has made a very powerful case that there | :06:51. | :06:58. | |
was a systematic cover-up. And by joining together the dots in the way | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
that he does, there is a picture which seems to be emerging and needs | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
to be examined further. But even if he is wrong, and what we are | :07:08. | :07:15. | |
actually confronted with is systemic and ministry at us and medical | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
failures, the argument for immediate compensation for all the people | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
affected is so powerful that the Government do need to look at that | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
ardently. -- urgently. And, if possible, say something urgent Mac | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
sense of what I did today. Absolutely. I could not agree more. | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
It is downright immoral to make them keep begging in the way that they | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
have been forced to do. They raised their hopes and they should deliver | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
on the former premise to's promise, and do what my right honourable | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
friend has just said. In terms of the story that is becoming clear, | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
there is one becoming clear, isn't there? Warnings from the US ignored. | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
He wished to drive on these new products from the haemophilia centre | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
to push them out and find out the results before they know what could | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
happen with them. Problems happened and then there was a situation | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
where, the Government might be exposed to litigation. Let's not | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
have it in the notes of people so that we do not have a story building | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
about how there has been negligence and people might have compensation | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
claims. That is the story I have got. I don't know about anyone else. | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
And some people would say, actually, don't just destroy the notes, | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
falsify them. That is the story. That is why we need to find out | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
whether that is true or not. Because it is my view, Madam Deputy Speaker | :08:40. | :08:46. | |
that these are criminal acts that did not just happen by chance. A | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
major injustice has happened here. When I make a speech tonight, I | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
think of our late, great friend, Paul Goggins, who MS every single | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
day and he did so much to advance the cause of justice of those who | :09:01. | :09:07. | |
suffered. -- who I miss. And his constituents and the promises I have | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
made to them, to act for them in Paul's name. In 2013 debate like | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
this, just before he died, Paul made an impassioned call for, quote, a | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
serious Government backed enquiry with access to all the remaining | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
records and the power to get to the truth of what happened and why. His | :09:30. | :09:36. | |
demand was as undeniable then as it is now. And yet it pains me that in | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
the four years since, this House is not moved forward at all. If this | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
continues to be the case after what I have said tonight, I am afraid | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
that this parliament will be complicit in that cover-up. In reply | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
to my honourable friend's demand for an enquiry, the letter she wrote in | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
October 2006, the Prime Minister said this. The relevant documents | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
have been published on the Department of Health and National | :10:05. | :10:11. | |
Archives website. It is likely that a public enquiry would provide | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
further information. In my view, that is highly debatable statement, | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. And they do not think a Prime Minister who has a | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
good track record in helping secure justice for those to whom it has | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
been denied should have put her name to a letter, probably drafted by the | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
Department of Health, like that. I live in exactly the same thing being | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
said to me by those who oppose the setting up of the Hillsborough | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
Independent panel. Everything is out there. It is already known. That is | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
what they always say. If the Prime Minister is confident in her | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
assertion, and I say this to the Minister, rather than just | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
publishing the documents, the was at the Government has selected as | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
relevant, why not publish all the government-held document so that we | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
can decide whether her claim is true or not? On the basis of the evidence | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
I have presented tonight, I believe it would be quite wrong for the size | :11:14. | :11:20. | |
to resist that call. -- this House. I am not calling for a lengthy | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
public enquiry, to be clear. I am calling for a Hillsborough style | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
disclosure process, overseen by an independent panel which can review | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
all the documents held by Government, NHS and private bodies. | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
And just as with Hillsborough, this panel process should be able to | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
review documents withheld under Security, secrecy protections and | :11:45. | :11:53. | |
make the necessary connections locally and nationally. And then | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
produce a report on the extent to which the disclosure of these | :11:57. | :11:58. | |
documents tells a new story about what has happened here today. | :11:59. | :12:05. | |
Tonight, I issue a direct challenge to all parties in this House, | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
including my own front bench and the SNP. It is to do the right thing and | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
put a commitment in your election manifesto to set up the Silver style | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
enquiry into contaminated blood. -- the Hillsborough style enquiry. It | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
would be the most effective way to get as quickly as possible to the | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
whole truth, the whole story, as it did quite effectively with | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
Hillsborough. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to be clear to the Minister | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
and the House tonight that is the newly elected Government after the | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
general election does not set up the process I described, I will refer my | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
dossier of cases to the police. And I will request a criminal | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
investigation into these shameful acts of cover-up against innocent | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
people. I say to the Minister that the choice is yours. People are | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
asking the already, why don't I just go straight to the police with the | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
evidence I have got? I got them an expiration of the were doing that. | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
It is my view that the individual crimes I have outlined, as part of a | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
more systematic cover-up, can only be understood as part of that. If we | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
developed piecemeal to the police, they could struggle to put together | :13:15. | :13:17. | |
the bigger picture of what lies behind the falsified medical | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
records. That might, in turn, delete truth and justice. However, if the | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
Government will not act, then I believe a police investigation is | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
the correct step. That is what I request, because I cannot keep this | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
information in my possession and not do something with that. As we know, | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
time is not on the victim's side. I will set a deadline on it. If the | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
Government is not set up a Hillsborough style enquiry by the | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
time the House rises for the summer recess, then I will refer my | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
evidence to the police and I will request that investigation. I will | :13:54. | :14:01. | |
give way. I thank my honourable friend forgiving way. He has made an | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
incredibly powerful case and I know that in his final speech here... We | :14:06. | :14:12. | |
discussed it earlier and the entire team media supporters call. -- team | :14:13. | :14:21. | |
here supports his call. I am pleased to hear that and I hope it means a | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
manifesto commitment of the kind I have asked for. With my honourable | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
friend agree with me that there should be a backbench business | :14:32. | :14:33. | |
debate on this issue when Parliament returns before the summer recess, so | :14:34. | :14:36. | |
that backbenchers from all parties can pressure the Government to look | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
at this? And make this play. I will not be here, but I make this play to | :14:43. | :14:49. | |
him and... If he will be written. Don't rule out Labour in Scotland. | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
We are on the way back! I say to people in this House today, people | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
who are candidates who might be coming here, you must act on this | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
information. You cannot leave this with letters. -- where it is. Your | :15:02. | :15:09. | |
conscience tells you you have to do something about it. When the | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
Government ruled out an enquiry into Orgreave, despite the existence of | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
clear evidence of serious wrongdoing by the police, they did so on the | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
basis that, quote, nobody died. I am a -- afraid that threadbare defence | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
will not hold here. People have died. 2000 in all. They have been | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
the victims of both negligence and cover-up. In its heart of hearts, | :15:35. | :15:41. | |
this parliament knows that is true. The question is, what are we going | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
to do about it? I will end with a quote from an e-mail I have received | :15:45. | :15:47. | |
from another victim, Roger, who became infected with hepatitis C in | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
1978. He only found out by accident when having a hip replacement | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
operation in 1994. This is despite having raised his family in between. | :15:59. | :16:06. | |
His brother, George, died from Aids in 1991. | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
The indifference to the plight of so many, politicians should not be | :16:12. | :16:18. | |
surprised that lost confidence in parliament when candour is not | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
forthcoming and they are seen as interested in only preserving their | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
own position and the status quo. I suspect Roger speaks for every | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
single family affected by this scandal. It's been an enormous | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
privilege Madam Deputy Speaker for me to serve my constituents in this | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
house and it's with a real sense of sadness that I prepare to leave. But | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
I have to say I have also in my 16 years here had my eyes opened to its | :16:47. | :16:53. | |
shortcomings. The simple fact that following hells bras so many other | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
Justice campaigns have come to me, many of them from the 1970s and | :16:58. | :17:05. | |
1980s. That simple fact tells me this place has not been doing its | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
job properly. Westminster will only begin to solve the political crisis | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
we are living through when in the face of evidence headlines to act | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
fearlessly and swiftly in pursuit of the truth and gives a lot boys to | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
those of our fellow citizens who through no fault of their own have | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
been left in the wilderness. Collectively we have all failed the | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
victims of contaminated blood and I do not exempt myself from this. I | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
wish to apologise to all those affected for coming so late to this | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
issue in this speech tonight and I apologise to you Madam Deputy | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
Speaker for the length of time I have taken in introducing my | :17:46. | :17:52. | |
comments. But in another way I don't actually. I don't, the house should | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
be delayed tonight on this matter. The truth has been delayed for | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
people, the justice has been delayed so this house should be delayed | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
tonight as it hears, as it hears directly what they have been through | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
and I hope we have given a flavour of that tonight. So I say this to | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
members here and those who may come here that it's never too late to do | :18:19. | :18:20. | |
the right thing. 'S no clapping. I am sure the whole house will join | :18:21. | :18:43. | |
me in wishing him very well. Minister Nicola Blackwood. Thank you | :18:44. | :18:51. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the right Honourable member | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
for securing this debate, his last in the house, on what is an | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
important issue, not just to him and his constituents but I know is also | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
important to many other members in this house and to their constituents | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
and I would like in particular to pay tribute to the courage of all | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
victims who have allowed their stories to be told today the value | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
of this in reminding us why we are all here and in driving us to find | :19:20. | :19:26. | |
the best solutions to this very difficult issue cannot be | :19:27. | :19:28. | |
overestimated and I think we should all take a moment to remember that. | :19:29. | :19:35. | |
That is exactly why the government has introduced the inflected blood | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
payment scheme alongside the commitment of up to a up to 2020, | :19:39. | :19:50. | |
2021, for all those affected. I am sure the whole house will share my | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
view that nothing can make up for the suffering and loss families have | :19:57. | :20:04. | |
experienced and no financial support can change what has happened to them | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
as the honourable gentleman said. But I hope all of those here will | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
recognise that the support provided is hugely important for those facing | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
medical challenges and is more than any previous administration has | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
provided and recognise it is a measure of how seriously this | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
government takes this issue. I would also like to start by taking a | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
moment to clarify some issues around the consultation because there has | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
been some confusion in recent weeks about it. The consultation response | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
announced on the 13th of July 2016 introduced for the first time an | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
annual payment for all individuals affected with HIV or chronic | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
hepatitis C the NHS supply blood or blood products and the recent | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
consultation which closed on the 17th of April 2017 asked for | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
comments on the special category mechanism. This mechanism will allow | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
those with appetite to see stage one to consider their infection -- those | :21:03. | :21:13. | |
with hepatitis C to apply for the higher annual payment equivalent to | :21:14. | :21:15. | |
annual payment received by we anticipate as serious number of | :21:16. | :21:28. | |
stage one beneficiaries will benefit from this process and the higher | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
annual payment level it will offer those co-infected with HIV and | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
hepatitis C stage one will also be eligible to apply, those who are | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
co-infected with HIV and hepatitis C stage to already receive the higher | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
annual payments are both can saltation does propose those | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
payments not increased 2018 as had originally been set out in the 2016 | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
consultation response. The recent consultation also included a | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
question on the type of discretionary support they would | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
find most useful and we remain keen to ensure fairness of support | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
between beneficiaries, work between beneficiaries based on need and | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
individual circumstances. We have had consultation submissions but had | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
to consider those over the period and cannot make decisions until | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
after that. I just wanted to make those points before turning to the | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
right Honourable gentleman's point about the further enquiry. As he | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
will know from a number of previous debates on this issue the government | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
has been clear it does not at this point believe a further enquiry | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
would be beneficial because there have been previous enquiries and I | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
would like to go into a little discussion about why those enquiries | :22:41. | :22:50. | |
were quite useful. Lord Archer of Soundwell and Lord Penrhos have | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
already taken separately undertaken independent enquiries in the last | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
decade and neither found governments of the day to be at fault and did | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
not apportion blame. The pen rose enquiry began in 2009 when he was | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
himself Health Secretary and over the course of the enquiry evidence | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
was taken from nearly 90 days of oral hearings resulting in over | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
13,000 pages of transcripts and in addition 200 witnesses and a other | :23:19. | :23:27. | |
documents taken. I am going to come onto his points in a moment if he | :23:28. | :23:30. | |
does not mind me setting out the context. OK, if he would like to. I | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
just wanted, I accept there have been two enquiries but I don't think | :23:37. | :23:44. | |
it's acceptable for the government 2.2 arch, that was not a government | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
backed enquiry, it did not have access to the government can stand | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
there and use that as an excuse and say we do not need an enquiry | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
because of arch, it was not a government backed enquiry. -- | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
archer. That is why I was speaking about pen rose. I will in a moment. | :24:07. | :24:15. | |
Includes an appendix listing witnesses and many statements the | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
enquiry considered and although the Department of Health was not called | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
to provide witnesses to the enquiry it co-operated fully with Lord | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
Penrhos request for documentary evidence and the departmental | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
evidence Lord Penrhos used is referenced in his final report. Lord | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
Penrhos published the report of his enquiry into infections acquired in | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
Scotland the 25th of March 2015 and nothing was withheld, any redacted | :24:46. | :24:47. | |
documents provided to the enquiry where... I don't think it's reliable | :24:48. | :25:09. | |
to turn to Penrose it seems to me there was not a complete picture in | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
Penrose either despite what the Minister is trying to paint, this | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
picture of full disclosure. Of course that was only part of the | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
picture because brother documents have been disclosed, the department | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
has published all relevant information it holds on blood safety | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
in line with the Freedom of Information Act 2000. All papers | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
that are available for the period 1970-85 and mounting to over 5500 | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
documents have been published on the Department of Health website as the | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
Prime Minister said in her letter to the right honourable gentleman and | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
in addition over 200 files of documents are available to the | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
public through the National Archives and papers from more than 30 years | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
ago are a matter of public record. All documents up to 1995 are also | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
available in the National archive. I will also, we are also aware of six | :26:07. | :26:13. | |
documents from those published on the Department website which are | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
currently being withheld under the Freedom of Information Act on the | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
grounds that they either contain only personal information and | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
nothing relevant to the issue of blood safety are on the grounds that | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
they hold legally privileged material which still has the | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
potential for future litigation. There are also 206 files containing | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
documents covering the period from 1986-1995 that have been published | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
in the National Archives website and are available to the public. We | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
cannot provide a figure for the number of individual documents which | :26:47. | :26:49. | |
are being withheld from these files but the documents have been withheld | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
the files will hold an indication of this which is visible to the public. | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
So where are the files contain only some information and suitable for | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
publication they will be redacted, yes, sorry. My right honourable | :27:03. | :27:10. | |
friend made a direct comparison between this and the Hillsborough | :27:11. | :27:19. | |
scandal. Following that there was the Taylor report then the Stuart | :27:20. | :27:30. | |
Smith enquiry, and in between all of the coroners inquests. It was not | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
until the process my right honourable friend described, the | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
independent panel which was able to look and in this case would be able | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
to look at all those documents, that the truth finally emerged. The | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
Minister to accept that process as being the best way to get at the | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
truth because she cannot guarantee that everything that has gone on so | :27:54. | :28:00. | |
far has got at the truth. The honourable gentleman makes a good | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
point but what I would say is given the release of government papers | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
that has ready taken place numerous statements made by ministers in both | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
Houses of Parliament on this issue, it does seem hard to understand how | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
an independent panel would add to current knowledge about how | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
infections happened or steps taken to deal with this problem. As with | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
the public enquirer way government bullies at point setting up a panel | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
would detract from the work we are doing. Let me go onto the next | :28:31. | :28:39. | |
paragraph which I think he will want to hear, would detract from the work | :28:40. | :28:41. | |
we are doing to support sufferers and their families without providing | :28:42. | :28:43. | |
any tangible benefit. However I would like to turn to the evidence | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
the honourable member has presented today with a great deal of passion. | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
He will appreciate I have not seen as evidence, it's the past I have | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
heard of it, I have not had chance to give it proper consideration and | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
he will be aware we are entering the pre-election period so I would like | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
to ask him please if you will submit his dossier to the Secretary of | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
State and also the noble Lord O'Shaughnessy who is the responsible | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
minister for this area and if he does indeed have evidence of | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
criminality he should contact the police on those matters. And indeed | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
I would also ask him to, you know, be aware of the Health Secretary has | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
made patient safety, learning from mistakes and transparency key | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
personal priority for him and I am absolutely sure that if his papers | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
hold thee concerning matters that he does he will give them top priority. | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
I do not doubt the sincerity of the right honourable gentleman in | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
raising this issue today. He is a former Health Secretary, who knows | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
very well of this issue as it was lied when he was a Health Secretary | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
and I appreciate his apology to victims today. | :29:55. | :30:11. | |
But I must also add him to recognise the fact we are taking action on | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
this issue, we are trying to get it right for victims on an entirely, on | :30:17. | :30:18. | |
an undeniably difficult and complex issue for victims who have waited | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
far too long for action and I would also ask him to appreciate and to | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
recognise we are doing this with the best of intentions even if he | :30:25. | :30:26. | |
disagrees with the we are doing it and in closing I would also like to | :30:27. | :30:29. | |
offer him, I would also like to offer him my very best wishes for | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
his future, he has left an undeniable, and indelible mark on | :30:33. | :30:34. | |
British politics and I am sure he will have great success in his | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
future wherever that may be. Can I briefly speak in this debate and say | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
the right honourable gentleman has helped the Minister who has rightly | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
said the papers will be considered and can I add to that that I think | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
there are still an number of victims who have unmet costs, I have one in | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
my constituency I am concerned about and I suggest over the 11 election | :30:59. | :31:07. | |
period say it is not just a government-held papers which matter, | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
it's those held in other parts of the health service so if for example | :31:12. | :31:14. | |
in the case of someone who died been told he had been drinking too much | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
when he did not drink seriously at all, that is part of the evidence I | :31:19. | :31:20. | |
think good coming into an enquiry. There are people dying. If this goes | :31:21. | :31:29. | |
on and on and on, and people want some closure on this. People are | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
knowing that they are coming to the end of their lives and they won't | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
get that closure. That's why I believe over the election period, | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
the advisors to ministers, perhaps the Home Office as well, should | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
consider what could be obtained by the kind of call for evidence he has | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
rightly put forward. If he has any other points to make through me, | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
he's very welcome. I'm grateful for the opportunity to do that. I would | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
say, the minister was very kind in the remarks that she made. But I do | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
think the point that maybe was missed when references Archer and | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
Penrose is that I'm called for a different process, a process that | :32:12. | :32:14. | |
takes documents, as my right honourable friend said, documents at | :32:15. | :32:17. | |
a local level and matches them with documents higher up the chain. It's | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
then that you get the jigsaw together to understand why someone | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
was acting in this way in this particular hospital. That's what we | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
were looking for. That was the strength of the Hillsborough | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
Independent Panel that it was able to paint that canvas and put the | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
pieces of the jigsaw together. The point was and I just would want, I | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
will send the evidence to the department, amended police | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
statements was only something that came to light properly just before | :32:46. | :32:48. | |
the 20th anniversary of Hillsborough. What I presented to | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
the House is altered medical records, a fact. We have it. A fact | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
that's been given to me. That is the same trigger in my view that now | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
should be looked into to establish the same point. Actually that is new | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
evidence that the Government now needs to consider to take a new | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
decision in relation to this. He's taken the words out of my mouth and | :33:11. | :33:13. | |
said it better than I could have done. We're all grateful to him. The | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
point is, this scandal should never have happened. When it was start | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
today should have been stopped. When it had been stopped people should | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
have known why it had gone on as long as it did. The right honourable | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
gentleman has done a service - I will give way one last time. I thank | :33:31. | :33:33. | |
the honourable member for giving way. In relation to what inquiries | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
have taken place, the House should not forget that where there was a | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
tribunal of inquiry, namely in Ireland, the Lindsay inquiry found | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
that the state knew of the risks and continued with those risks because | :33:51. | :33:53. | |
that's what other states, like the UK were doing. So is it credible | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
that an inquiry in Ireland could find that the risks were known but | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
carried on with and that a further investigation through a panel such | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
as the honourable member has decided wouldn't come to that same | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
conclusion? I conclude by thanking the right honourable gentleman, | :34:12. | :34:14. | |
thanking his neighbour the honourable lady for Hull who leads | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
the all party group and if I may, thanking my right honourable friend | :34:18. | :34:20. | |
sitting now in front of me who has done so much to make sure that these | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
issues are dealt with both as a backbencher and as a minister. | :34:26. | :34:33. | |
THE I thank the honourable gentleman for | :34:34. | :34:44. | |
giving way. I know that Penrose inquiry is always cast up as having | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
dealt with this issue. The Penrose inquiry was only held in Scotland. | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
They were not able to summon people from the rest of the UK who did not | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
want to attend. Therefore the idea that Penrose has dealt with it as | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
absolutely fellacious. You must have a system where you can summon people | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
to give evidence right across the UK. | :35:07. | :35:15. | |
THE SPEAKER: Order. We have a procedural unusual situation here | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
because of course there is plenty of time for an adjournment debate, when | :35:19. | :35:24. | |
it started as early as this. It's a very serious matter, but members who | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
are now arising to speak gave no indication before the minister spoke | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
that they wished to speak. Now, that does not mean that they will not be | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
permitted to speak, but just because this happens to be the end of a | :35:42. | :35:48. | |
Parliament, an important issue and time is available, doesn't mean that | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
I will ignore the - Mr Durkin, I'm addressing the House! Doesn't mean | :35:55. | :36:01. | |
that I will ignore the normal curtsies of this chamber. Now two | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
people have indicated to me that they wish to say something. They | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
must know they ought to have done so before the minister spoke. It was | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
quite obvious when I was going to call the minister. In these unusual | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
circumstances, I will allow the two members, who have indicated to me | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
that they wish to speak, to speak very briefly now. I don't expect | :36:27. | :36:33. | |
further interventions. I thank you on behalf of my constituent that I | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
just wanted to speak very briefly about. Because the minister did make | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
certain assertions in what she said. I just wanted to give some more | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
information to the House. The main part of the debate has been about | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
the excellent relations that my right honourable friend the member | :36:52. | :36:57. | |
for Lee has made. It does, to understand, and we have referred | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
briefly to the situation of people infected as in many cases as | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
children in this scandal of the NHS. That really we have to keep | :37:07. | :37:08. | |
reflecting on that. They were children. My constituent was a child | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
receiving treatment from the NHS that he needed. I've already talked | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
about my constituent having to pay for his own treatment, having to pay | :37:18. | :37:23. | |
for the drug which he needed to try to clear the hepatitis C virus from | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
his body. But he, the minister referred to the consultation and the | :37:30. | :37:35. | |
move that the ministers have recently made to reform the system | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
and I just wanted this minister to know how this had gone down with my | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
constituent because he tells me that he received a letter summarising the | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
proposed reform of the financial support. For me personally, he says, | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
as someone who has progressed to stage two hepatitis, I will be | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
significantly worse off. In real terms the proposals mean financial | :37:59. | :38:01. | |
support will decrease over time as the annual payment will be no longer | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
index linked. I will even lose the ?500 winter fuel payment I will no | :38:07. | :38:13. | |
longer receive, a prepayment prescription certificate which I use | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
for medication, it is disgraceful that people who were infected as | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
children by the NHS are being treated in this way. My constituent | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
goes on, I'll just refer to this briefly, "I believe the Government | :38:28. | :38:33. | |
is being deliberately punitive and exceedingly cruel in using the | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
affected communities request to reform the various support schemes | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
to actually make cuts to those people who have been infected by | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
contaminated blood given to them by the NHS through no fault of their | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
own." I just wanted to add to what has been a very powerful debate that | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
is the situation and has already been said by honourable and right | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
honourable members, our constituents have no time left. This is the | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
situation they find themselves in, this miserley treatment beggars | :39:03. | :39:04. | |
belief. It's time we did something better. | :39:05. | :39:11. | |
Can I thank you for your courtesy in allowing us to speak. I fully accept | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
that we ought to have spoken before the minister responded. I should say | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
I expected the response to have gone on for longer and perhaps had the | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
opportunity to make a short intervention on that basis. I feel | :39:23. | :39:29. | |
compelled to speak because one of my constituents has been so badly | :39:30. | :39:32. | |
affected by this that it doesn't just affect me, when I see the | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
Government time after time refusing to do the right thing on this, | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
genuinely, it haunts me. None of us come into politics to do the wrong | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
thing. We come here to try and make the country a better place and to | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
give voice for people that have been ignored. People have been ignored | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
for such a long time and time after time, it just feels as though the | :39:55. | :40:02. | |
abuse goes on. I really - fear went through my body when the minister | :40:03. | :40:05. | |
stood to read from the folder and it was clear the minister was | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
determined to go down this cul-de-sac of denial and deferral. | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
Mark my words on this, while there's breath in my body and breath in the | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
body of people on this side of the chamber, this issue will not go | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
away. But more than that, if this isn't resolved, the issue will haunt | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
the minister. THE SPEAKER: The question is that | :40:33. | :40:39. | |
this House do now adjourn. As many of that opinion say aye. The ayes | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
have it. Order. Order. That's the end of the day in the | :40:43. | :41:01. | |
houckz. We will now be going -- in the House of Commons, we will go | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
live over to the House of Lords. You can watch recorded coverage after | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
the Daily Politics later tonight. ... However the Government respects | :41:10. | :41:17. | |
the constitutional relationship with the overseas territories and the | :41:18. | :41:20. | |
Crown dependencies. Legislating for the overseas territories is | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
something that we have only done very rarely and on issues such as | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
the abolition of the death penalty, which raised issues of compliance | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
with human rights obligations, areas for which the UK retains direct | :41:34. | :41:40. | |
responsibility. While tackling this kind of complex criminality and its | :41:41. | :41:43. | |
consequences is extremely serious, there is a clear constitutional | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
difference in the fact that financial services are an area that | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
is devolved to territory governments in the case of the Crown | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
dependencies, the UK has never legislated for them without their | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
consent. It is also likely to lead to the territories with drawing | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
their current level of cooperation, jeopardising the progress made and | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
the spirit of working in partnership that we have fostered with the | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
territories. I hope that noble Lord's will see | :42:13. | :42:14. |