25/04/2017 House of Commons


25/04/2017

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understand the honourable gentleman has been campaigning on this issue

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for some time. He cannot make bitterness because we are in purdah.

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-- we cannot make commitments because BR in purdah. Thank you, Mr

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Speaker. I seek your advice on parliamentary protocol in a member

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of that into another member's constituents as part of a campaign.

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Conservative brand of paper out of the camera cut it Castle Alexis.

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Asking them to vote for the Conservative candidates. I know a

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summit in her own constituency that have not received any such litter.

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This is the second time that she has been campaigning for the

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Conservative latte, using high status as a MP in my constituency

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without informing. She is fully aware that in the British

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parliamentary system one member represents a single constituency and

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conventions have developed so that one in the's relations with her

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constituents are preserved. I have had a number of complaints from

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constituents, some of whom are now confused as to proved a member of

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Parliament is. My constituency office is receiving phone calls from

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constituents who think this must been the boundary changes have gone

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through and may not probably Debra presented. As far as I'm concerned,

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this is unacceptable. I'd be grateful for your comments and

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advice on this serious matter. Hasn't it always been the case that

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there is a member right on Conservative Party notepaper a

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political message to anyone, that is in order. It is only if you are

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representing yourself as an MP on a particular constituency using our

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stations stationery that it as a problem. I would like to clarify

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that the letters assigned... MP. We can and won't have a debate on the

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matter. The honourable lady was courtesy and after giver her

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intentions to raise this matter, for which I thank her. I'm attending to

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the substance of what he says and to the remarks of the Minister. I must

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say to her, that disquiet in Google experience may have been, and

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relatively irregularly although it may occur, it is not clear to me

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that the honourable member has broken any convention. It is not

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clear to me. It is certainly at invention to notify any member of an

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intention to visit Anna public capacity, it is also very well

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established that a member should not purport to represent an offer to

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represent people who are not hierarchies constituents. Writing,

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however, and a campaigning context on party notepaper, though it may

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not happen very frequently, is not, and have experience in these

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the long-standing convention. What I the long-standing convention. What I

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would like to say to the honourable lady because I tutor can send

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seriously. I do appreciate the concern, but it does seem to me that

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Carter sees between members of the House, which are important, at best

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arrived at and adhered to by informal discussions between

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colleagues. It is not desirable that they should ritually attempted to be

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resolved by being raised on this floor of the House with each year.

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That is to say, this is very clear, that is to say, they are not matters

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of order, they are matters of an informal agreement and

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understanding. It is much better between neighbouring colleagues if

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such understandings can be reached. We believe it there for now. Members

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are perfectly free to go if this wet. We a point of order. Question

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should be answered in a timely and substantive manner. On the 24th of

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manager I tabled a question asking how much the Government spent on

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advertising and the Evening Standard newspaper in the last financial

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year. Over a month later, I still haven't received a substantive

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answer to the question. The Government announced they would

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winding down without providing an answer. The public might draw an

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occlusion may have something embarrassing they don't want to be

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revealed during an election campaign. As anything the Speaker

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can do to compel them to reveal matters like this? I appreciate his

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concern. The content of ministers answers is not a matter for the

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chair. That is matter is closed to play for the Minister giving a

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response. However, I would like to repeat my repeated exhortation to

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ministers to give timely and substantive responses, and excellent

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teaching and might I am regularly teaching and might I am regularly

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joined by the Leader of the House. Many ministers at at a premium to

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add ceiling to that principle and expectation. I do agree that it is

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unsatisfactory if the Government is unable to get a substantive answer

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to a named the question tabled well before the date. No doubt the

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concern articulate it has been heard on the Treasury bench. And so far as

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seeks my advice, it is encapsulated seeks my advice, it is encapsulated

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in one sentence. The honourable gentleman should seek to speak to

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the Leader of the House, the member for Aylesbury, sooner rather than

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later. LAUGHTER

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No semicolon was required! I'm always grateful to the honourable

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gentleman for his observations, even gentleman for his observations, even

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when they are proffered in a disorderly manner from a sedentary

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position. If there are no farther points of order. There is a point of

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order. That is extremely kind of you Mr Speaker. This is from one of the

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largest buying cooperatives in this country. I gave one of these ties to

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the last Prime Minister hoping they would wear one,. With the Speaker

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agree with me that the semicolon is a very ten thing and it should be

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used more often? I agree. The honourable gentleman as an authority

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on the matter and on a number of other matters relating to language

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and syntax. We will leave it there for now. If there are no points of

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order. We come now to the ten minute rule motion. I beg to move that lead

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be given to bring and a bill to require the Financial Conduct

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Authority to make rules restricted charges for an offer drives

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overdrafts in certain circumstances and for certain purposes. I want to

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begin by urging all parties to include in that election manifesto a

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commitment to capping charges on these unauthorised overdraft.

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Following great work by my honourable friend, the member from

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Walthamstow, huge progress has been made on the charges faced by people

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who access finance to payday loans with the introduction of a cap.

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Mandated by the financial services in 2013, the SCA have introduced a

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cat sitter 24p per month for anyone borrowing 100 pounds for 30 days.

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Millions of people are struggling with spiralling debts and

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overdrafts. They deserve to be protected from excessive charges and

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practices that only make the situation worse. We have seen from

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the payday loan cap that this can be achieved. Legislation would allow

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the Financial Conduct Authority to implement a gap without delay, and

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with out the risk that the banks would also delay. Imagine you are

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?200 overdrawn. It is not great, but since you have an arranged

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overdraft, you will not incur charges. It will not cost you

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anything except for the entrance. Then I direct debit was to MPs into

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an unauthorised overdraft. Unless you can quickly pay money into your

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account, you will quickly start to rack up charges. Going as little as

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?10 overdrawn can mean charges of ?5 per day from your high street bank.

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Research published in February found that customers needing to borrow as

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little as ?100 could be charged up to seven times more, ?156, by some

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major high street banks. The Financial Conduct Authority allows

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payday loan companies to charge more. Bank overdraft charges only

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apply to monthly charges. Consumers who need to borrow ?100 could pay up

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to ?180 in fees if they borrow over two months from the high street bank

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in the form of an unauthorised overdraft. The same applies if the

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goods just a few pence over the overdraft limit. These charges are

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totally disproportionate to the offence committed. Last year, banks

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made ?1.2 billion from charges an unauthorised overdraft, mostly from

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financially vulnerable customers. These are customers that banks

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should be helping, not pitting farther into the red. These are

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Markets Authority have labelled in Markets Authority have labelled in

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the report as a captive audience for the banks and the high charges. They

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have described unauthorised overdraft as the biggest single

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problem in the personal banking market. Action needs to be taken.

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The charity estimates that 1.7 million people in the UK are trapped

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in an overdraft cycle, and consistently use overdraft to meet

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essential as well as emergency cost. essential as well as emergency cost.

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Too many vulnerable people who are already struggling regular have to

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go into an overdraft or over and overdraft limit have the

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difficulties exacerbated. Many families live constantly and that

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overdrafts. This is impossible choices between meeting because of

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essential bells are going farther over their limit. As these build-up,

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families find it increasingly hard to get out of the date the. Last

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year, stepped inside with their clients with overdraft debt to

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explore their experiences. It found that people regular go over their

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overdraft limit. 62% of the people that the charity helped

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overdraft let, regularly exceed the overdraft let, regularly exceed the

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limit as it struggled to make ends meet. These borrowers face average

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charges of ?45 per month was slipping into an authorised

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overdraft. This adds up to a massive ?225 per year of unauthorised

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overdraft charges, and for many people, the charges are much higher

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than that. The charity has told me of two cases of vulnerable people

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being placed into debt by the banks. If 42-year-old man racked up

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overdraft charges after losing his job. And dressed men that on

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average, 80p per was added to his debt -- ?80 per month. The second

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case was a 38 killed women, who faced by the overdraft debt. -- a

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38-year-old woman. She slipped into an unplanned overdraft buying just

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?90. That led to a cycle in which was consistently and and out of

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unauthorised overdrafts. Heart overdraft increased by ?1000 due to

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lose interest charges. These people, like so many others, were already in

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difficulty and trying to manage their debts from day to day.

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Overdraft out amongst the most widely used credit products in the

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market, and form part of a worrying trend in our economy. Saving ratio

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as a nation is at record low. Our household debt ratio is at 145%, up

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6% in the past year. Unsecured debt has grown by 10% in just 12 months.

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I am worried about the sustainability of our personal

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finances, and are to murder man to heavily reliant on debt and personal

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borrowing. The Government need to do more to insure our economy is not

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built on the shallow foundations of debt at overdraft, but instead is

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built on investment and secure and decently paid jobs. Rising debt is

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symptomatic of a wider problem in our economy. Reflected and growth

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levels and in rising levels of inequality. We need an economy that

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works for the many and not just for the few, and the banking sector that

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does the same. Last year, the FA Vase markets authority published a

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review which disappointingly fell fell short of introducing a cap.

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Instead, the Port said that banks would be required to set their own

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ceilings on charges in the form of a monthly maximum charge. However,

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most banks already have that. It might be 5p per day are 90p per

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month. The problem is that we need a lower cap set by directly letters

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are not individually by the banks. They monthly maximum as proposed by

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the authority will do absolutely nothing to stop the deepening of the

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persons debt crisis. Banks should not punish people with

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disproportionate charges. Competition in this sector of the

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years has got weaker still with the years has got weaker still with the

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merger of our many high street banks. The recent travels of the

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Co-op bank, which is lower charges than many good entries problems.

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Every overdraft users are the least like despite bank account. Given the

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there is little incentive for them there is little incentive for them

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want to deny the banks of the right want to deny the banks of the right

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to charge for their services, but there should be fairness and

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proportionality. In fact, the impact opposite is the

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case. Most of us, Mr Speaker, regard banks as more reputable and fathom

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payday lenders, so it is a bitter irony, a better deal for this... To

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go to a payday lender then their high street bank. Banks need to

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improve their behaviour, and I urge them to step in and their customers.

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. After this year may passion the buck to the authority, the FCA as

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may be welcome decision to include this issue in its welcome review

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into high cost credit which will report later this year. But neither

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take action, the FCA would benefit from a mandate from Parliament, so I

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urge them to support this bill and make the changes a reality to help

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the customers being ripped off by their banks. This cannot continue.

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The question is that the honourable member have leave to bring in the

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Bill. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I

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think temp macro one has it. Stephen Hammond, Sir David Amis, and

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George Carrigan and myself. Unauthorised Overdrafts (Cost of

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Credit). Friday the 12th of May. Thank you. Order, the clerk will now

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proceed to read the orders of the day. Finance (No. 2) Bill. Order.

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Order Finance (No. 2) Bill. We begin with... Relating to more than one

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tax with the question that clause one standard part of the Bill with

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which it will be convenient to consider the causes, schedules and

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amendments listed on the selection paper. Thank you very much, Mr

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Chairman. I will speak briefly to this first group in today as we have

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a lot to get through this afternoon. Obviously I will attempt to address

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any points during the debate. I should start by noting the changes

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to the Bill members will have observed. The Finance Bill is

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proceeding on the basis of consensus and the request of the opposition,

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we are not proceeding with a number of causes in this bill as we know

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with policy change, this could make a contribution to the public

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finances and the Government will... I should note the Government remains

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committed to the digital future of the tax system, Prince poll widely

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accepted across the House. The Government recognises the need for

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proper measures as... Why the Government has pursued this measure

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in the next parliament in light on the pressures of time it is now

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applied. Mr Chairman, clauses one and three provide for the annual

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charging of income tax in the current financial year and maintain

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the basic higher and additional rates at the current level. The

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annual charge legislated for in the Finance Bill is essential for its

:20:43.:20:46.

continued collection and well enabled the funding of vital public

:20:47.:20:50.

services in the coming year. Painting in the rates including the

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tax-free personal allowance and the point where people pay the higher

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rate of tax means we are showing important manifesto commitments.

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This year, increases to the personal allowances will put a basic rate

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income tax bill by over ?1000. Class four maintains a starting rate limit

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for savings and can apply to the savings of those with lower earnings

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at its current level of ?5,000, tenth 2017 tax year. Clauses are 17

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and 18 both make changes to the taxation of pensions with 18

:21:33.:21:38.

legislating for a significant measure announced at the spring

:21:39.:21:42.

budget, it makes changes to ensure pension transfers to recognise a

:21:43.:21:47.

busy pension schemes after the 9th of March 2017 will be taxable, the

:21:48.:21:53.

charge will not apply if both the individual and the pension savings

:21:54.:21:58.

are in the same country both within the European economic area are the

:21:59.:22:01.

scheme is provided by the individual's employer. Before the

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changes were announced in the spring budget, someone retiring abroad but

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not face a charge to anywhere in the world providing it met certain

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requirements. Oversee pension transfers have become incredibly

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marketed in way of gaining unfair tax advantaged an pension savings.

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This is contrary to the policy rationale for allowing transfer

:22:30.:22:36.

of... Discharge deters those seeking to gain tax advantages by

:22:37.:22:43.

transferring the pensions abroad, stopping those genuinely needing to

:22:44.:22:54.

transfer being able to do so. To make a more consistent taxation of

:22:55.:23:01.

domestic pensions. Plus 21, simplifies the payment of

:23:02.:23:04.

distributions by some type of investment fund with the

:23:05.:23:06.

introduction of the personal saving allowance of 98% of... In line with

:23:07.:23:14.

this, the clause removes requirement to deduct tax at source, which then

:23:15.:23:20.

later needs to be re-claimed by the saver. Turning to clauses 45 to 47,

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the final ones in this grouping, these provide for the removal of the

:23:28.:23:31.

tax advantages of the employee shareholder status for arrangements

:23:32.:23:36.

entered in after the 1st of December 20 16. This is in response to

:23:37.:23:40.

evidence suggesting the status was not used as intended by companies

:23:41.:23:44.

and was not delivering value for money. This status was introduced to

:23:45.:23:51.

give workplace flexible D2 creates a new class of employee as members

:23:52.:23:56.

might aware, but it has come apparent the status was used as a

:23:57.:24:00.

tax planning device rather than for the intended purpose of helping

:24:01.:24:04.

businesses to recruit. Evidence shows companies, particularly when

:24:05.:24:08.

by private equity funds, we using shareholder status as the tax

:24:09.:24:13.

efficient ways of rewarding hires stuff. -- hire staff. This continued

:24:14.:24:22.

to be the case despite the introduction of the lifetime limit

:24:23.:24:28.

on capital gains tax. The Government therefore announced in the Autumn

:24:29.:24:34.

Statement 2016 that it would remove the tax relief associated with the

:24:35.:24:39.

to new arrangements at the next to new arrangements at the next

:24:40.:24:42.

legislative opportunity. The action we are taking in this Finance Bill

:24:43.:24:47.

tackles abuse and the fairness of the tax system. I therefore move

:24:48.:24:54.

that these clauses and associates schedules stand part of the Bill.

:24:55.:25:02.

Thank you, Mr chav. I would like to thank the Minister for the which I

:25:03.:25:13.

fully concur with. For some weeks, my colleagues and everybody have

:25:14.:25:16.

been preparing for this. With a view to having a number of public bill

:25:17.:25:22.

committee sessions spanning over a number of weeks to properly

:25:23.:25:26.

scrutinise the Finance Bill. This has been the context of my comments.

:25:27.:25:32.

The Prime Minister's announcement at number ten and the subscribed vote

:25:33.:25:36.

backs succeeded means we do not have since sufficient time to give the

:25:37.:25:43.

full bill the time it deserves and ensure many members will appreciate

:25:44.:25:46.

that. It is clear that the pressure without we're under with the snap

:25:47.:25:51.

election, otherwise they would not introduce the longest Finance Bill.

:25:52.:25:56.

That being said, the opposition recognises the scenario wherein

:25:57.:25:59.

anti-government's was hostility to levy taxes. That is why we have

:26:00.:26:09.

acted in good faith to ensure an version of the Bill can be passed

:26:10.:26:14.

before Parliament is dissolved. On our approach to the pre-election

:26:15.:26:18.

process and the presentation of the condensed version. The question of

:26:19.:26:23.

fiscal responsibility and balanced against Parliamentary scrutiny is an

:26:24.:26:29.

issue. There is a responsibility to ensure taxpayers there is little

:26:30.:26:33.

disruption as possible and we will not attempt to block anything in

:26:34.:26:37.

this bill. There have been levy is to allow business as usual for

:26:38.:26:42.

companies. Nor will we obstruct tax in the process of collection. But we

:26:43.:26:49.

cannot give in the Government a white card on this, we have made

:26:50.:26:56.

that clear. There are things that should wait until after the general

:26:57.:26:59.

election to allow them to be properly scrutinised. One example is

:27:00.:27:06.

the soft drinks levy. The Finance Bill before Rose shows what has read

:27:07.:27:14.

being implemented. This is includes the decision to raise alcohol duty

:27:15.:27:23.

in line of inflation. As I said in my speech at the second reading,

:27:24.:27:29.

writing business rates and inflation is putting a perfect storm for small

:27:30.:27:33.

businesses, and therefore the decision to rise this duty is

:27:34.:27:38.

something of a risk. In relation to insurance premium tax, another

:27:39.:27:42.

measure we would like to avoid, but is included, that this bill is going

:27:43.:27:48.

through is the rise. It has already been doubled and the... If there was

:27:49.:27:55.

a longer process, we would have sought to challenge this, so there

:27:56.:27:59.

is no surprise in that one. The measure is already in effect due to

:28:00.:28:04.

the resolutions. With tax avoidance, it is time for a wholesale shift in

:28:05.:28:10.

how we approach this given the economy in recent years. It

:28:11.:28:13.

initially contained initiatives and we will come back to these in due

:28:14.:28:24.

course. Mr chair, utilisation of tax, we will come back to

:28:25.:28:30.

digitisation of tax. It will come as a sigh of relief to many small

:28:31.:28:39.

businesses. No one is against the digitalisation of the tax system,

:28:40.:28:43.

but we do not agree with the rush to implement it. In relation to the

:28:44.:28:49.

soft drinks levy, a large portion of this has been consulted on heavily

:28:50.:28:53.

in Government with cross-party support. The soft drinks levy

:28:54.:29:01.

industry is popular with the public and a poll indicated it did have

:29:02.:29:06.

huge amounts of support. I want to take the opportunity to pay tribute

:29:07.:29:10.

to Jamie Oliver and the obesity Alliance who has campaigned on this

:29:11.:29:17.

and in obesity strategy. I must compliment the Minister in her

:29:18.:29:22.

current and previous roles as a strong advocate of this. We would

:29:23.:29:28.

like to see, if possible, a review of that particular sugar tax levy in

:29:29.:29:32.

due course, I'm sure the Minister may wish to comment on that. I'm

:29:33.:29:36.

sure there will be a whole range of issues in terms of multi-byte

:29:37.:29:41.

discounts on unhealthy foods. That could be part of that. In

:29:42.:29:44.

conclusion, as a responsible opposition. We will not stand in the

:29:45.:29:49.

way of passing this before the election, there are some measures

:29:50.:29:54.

that a Labour Government would bring back and we will have the

:29:55.:29:57.

opportunity to scrutinise those in due course. As far as we are

:29:58.:30:02.

concerned, we need to get this through, we need to be responsible

:30:03.:30:05.

and we will support the Government web that responsibility is

:30:06.:30:12.

required,. Could I say to the House, I'm going to bring in the member of

:30:13.:30:18.

Copland. Can we remember courtesies. We do not intervene on the main

:30:19.:30:31.

speech. Trudy Harrison. Thank you, Mr Hoyle, for the opportunity to

:30:32.:30:35.

deliver my maiden speech as the newly elected member of Parliament

:30:36.:30:40.

for Copland. This may be one of the last debates of this Parliament. I

:30:41.:30:46.

would like to pay tribute to my predecessor Jamie Reid who was the

:30:47.:30:50.

member for Copland from 2005 until he stood down in January this year.

:30:51.:30:57.

It is Jamie who I have two thanks for introducing me to politics. The

:30:58.:31:00.

very first Parliamentary debate I ever watched was a Westminster Hall

:31:01.:31:05.

debate called upon by Jamie and also attended by other Cumbrian members.

:31:06.:31:11.

My own rubble friends for Penrith and the Borders. This was to

:31:12.:31:17.

discover the future of my children's school.

:31:18.:31:22.

I saw the positive impact MPs could have in their local communities, and

:31:23.:31:28.

the powerful influence support could break even and at areas, which I had

:31:29.:31:33.

previously felt would never be anyone's political priority. Like

:31:34.:31:37.

me, Jamie was born, raised and educated in coupling. In the fine

:31:38.:31:45.

Georgian tanks and CROWD: Georgian town of Whitehaven. He worked hard

:31:46.:31:54.

for rural communities. He placed a strong emphasis on improving health

:31:55.:31:58.

and education. And announcing his decision to stand down last

:31:59.:32:01.

December, he said he could achieve more for our community by returning

:32:02.:32:05.

to work within the nuclear industry at Sellafield rather than remaining

:32:06.:32:12.

a Labour member of Parliament. Jamie was a relentless, proud supporter of

:32:13.:32:17.

our local and district. He championed the world-class

:32:18.:32:19.

specialists kills that major towns and villages. He worked hard to make

:32:20.:32:25.

the case for coupling to host a new nuclear power station adjacent to

:32:26.:32:29.

Sellafield. He it was based on the strong belief that our workforce is

:32:30.:32:34.

best placed to power the northern powerhouse. After all, Copeland

:32:35.:32:43.

welcomed the world's first nuclear reactor in 1950. A local knowledge

:32:44.:32:51.

within the nuclear industry is internationally recognised and

:32:52.:32:57.

respected. Sellafield's safety record is exceptional, and an

:32:58.:33:00.

example of outstanding performance across the globe. Jamie said,

:33:01.:33:05.

Copeland's this days are ahead. I agree with this statement and have

:33:06.:33:12.

courted it many times! I would like to take this opportunity to thank

:33:13.:33:16.

Jimmy for his commitment, and wish him all the best and his new role.

:33:17.:33:25.

Copeland has for centuries pioneered a modern industrial strategy. Our

:33:26.:33:31.

largest town, Whitehaven, was once Britain's largest trading port with

:33:32.:33:35.

an extraordinary shipbuilding reputation thanks to the locally

:33:36.:33:40.

grown oak trees used to build a boat. An ancestor sailed the world

:33:41.:33:45.

securing deals, returning with goods which created racial global trading

:33:46.:33:53.

centre. Perhaps that is why we voted to leave the EU with such a high

:33:54.:33:57.

majority, because Hatherley provides confidence in our ability to export

:33:58.:34:00.

our knowledge and products across the globe. Like Pioneers, B don't

:34:01.:34:07.

veins. As ship sales decline, we dug veins. As ship sales decline, we dug

:34:08.:34:16.

deeper prosperity. Mining transformed the towns in our area.

:34:17.:34:30.

We are perhaps best known in Cumbria for a delightful little rabbits.

:34:31.:34:41.

Peter Rabbit. And his friends. Two named just one of beauty spot of,

:34:42.:34:50.

adorable characters. Artists and poets have found inspiration in the

:34:51.:34:55.

beautiful Cumbrian countryside. Once both themselves were sent under

:34:56.:34:58.

doctor 's orders to my home village of little to aid his recovery from a

:34:59.:35:07.

chest infection. With 32 miles of coastline, Diana and our landscape

:35:08.:35:15.

is good for the soul. We are situated in the Lake District

:35:16.:35:18.

natural park boundary, which I really do hope will become the

:35:19.:35:25.

second world Heritage site of Copeland, complementing Hadrian 's

:35:26.:35:28.

Wall. We eagerly await a decision in July to confirm another world first,

:35:29.:35:34.

the first UNESCO world Heritage site to include an entire national park

:35:35.:35:39.

thanks to a 20 year project by the Lake District National Park

:35:40.:35:44.

authority and local communities pitting Cumbria and the same

:35:45.:35:47.

international platform as it Tasman international platform as it Tasman

:35:48.:35:55.

Halle and the Great Barrier Reef. Where I was brought up I would open

:35:56.:36:00.

Mike curtains in the morning to reveal Britain's best view of

:36:01.:36:05.

angling's highest mountain. Well before swimming was trendy, I would

:36:06.:36:12.

slam and England's deepest lake. It is easy to see why this was the last

:36:13.:36:19.

place of mountaineering, and by the local markets town enjoy such

:36:20.:36:27.

popularity with this festival. Whilst the... Our landscape and

:36:28.:36:42.

cultural heritage is of course man-made. It is vitally important to

:36:43.:36:47.

industry. Both are planned and industry. Both are planned and

:36:48.:36:51.

lowland to ensure we can all benefit from the quality food production,

:36:52.:36:56.

the highest standards of Anna from welfare, -- animal welfare on which

:36:57.:37:03.

Copeland is so dependent. I could not get my maiden speech without

:37:04.:37:06.

thanking and acknowledging that I would not be standing in this House

:37:07.:37:10.

today if it were not for the fantastic and unwavering support of

:37:11.:37:18.

my family, friends, Jean Unity. My husband, my parents, brother and

:37:19.:37:24.

daughters, Gabrielle, Savannah, Francisco and rosemary. They have

:37:25.:37:33.

been incredible towers of strength. From the moment I decided to stand,

:37:34.:37:38.

campaigning, delivering leaflets and campaigning, delivering leaflets and

:37:39.:37:43.

knocking on doors. My girls have become persuasive activist. It has

:37:44.:37:46.

become wonderful to see their interest in politics growing. Having

:37:47.:37:54.

for teenage daughters, I was also delighted to accept the balance of

:37:55.:38:02.

female MPs to 456. Equalling their balance between all of her sleep's

:38:03.:38:06.

well members and the current number of male members. Though there was a

:38:07.:38:12.

change of reference NI Mother's Day cards this year. Gone were the

:38:13.:38:17.

thanks for the practical tasks of washing, cooking and cleaning, and

:38:18.:38:22.

generally being there, each one instead revert to a theoretical

:38:23.:38:25.

role, referencing and relation and pride. That is what a by-election

:38:26.:38:30.

does to family life. You can only imagine their comments about another

:38:31.:38:34.

round of doorstep challenges! LAUGHTER

:38:35.:38:43.

It is, after all, our children and young people that now in securing a

:38:44.:38:47.

bright future for Britain and inspiring the next generation's

:38:48.:38:52.

leaders. I was Theresa May's speech at the Conservative conference last

:38:53.:38:54.

year, and the Conservative conference last year, and was so

:38:55.:38:57.

commitment to deliver for Great commitment to deliver for Great

:38:58.:38:59.

Britain, and impressions for our country resonated with my own. I

:39:00.:39:06.

said to myself, that is me, that is what I want for my community. I

:39:07.:39:10.

stood because I want to get on and stood because I want to get on and

:39:11.:39:14.

make things happen. I want to be part of a proactive, positive team

:39:15.:39:19.

that makes tremendous difference to my community, the land of Copeland

:39:20.:39:28.

glory. My husband and I moved from Whitehaven to belittle, a small

:39:29.:39:36.

village in the south to raise and young family. We wanted our girls to

:39:37.:39:46.

attend a small primary, and we found a perfect one. In 2000 insects, I

:39:47.:39:50.

discovered their skill was really struggling to make ends meet. It

:39:51.:39:58.

desperately needed extra funding. . The problem was I declining numbers.

:39:59.:40:11.

I realise the whole town was declining. I realise the challenge

:40:12.:40:19.

was far more extensive. Copeland desperately requires investment, an

:40:20.:40:25.

infrastructure to be able to thrive. Both professionally, working for the

:40:26.:40:29.

Council, and personally, working with the community, I want to ship

:40:30.:40:39.

policy, and help our community become the key to our future. We

:40:40.:40:46.

want to ship the strategic vision from Bootle. It will become the

:40:47.:40:50.

beacon of hope for other Ronald Koeman it is. We worked hard to

:40:51.:40:55.

secure the Lake District National Park application. Well bank will

:40:56.:41:04.

bring 50 homes, ever tell, enterprise areas, and will attract

:41:05.:41:09.

public and private investment. In total, for Bootle, that'll mean an

:41:10.:41:15.

extra 61 homes, new businesses, and when complete, ?29 of and when

:41:16.:41:17.

complete, ?29 of annual investment. I stood in the Copeland by election

:41:18.:41:25.

to make a success of the new strategy, to be an asset to the

:41:26.:41:31.

northern powerhouse, and to realise our potential to be a global

:41:32.:41:34.

exporter of knowledge and products. But Copeland needs investment. I

:41:35.:41:37.

know that as a pioneering, know that as a pioneering,

:41:38.:41:40.

hard-working, and a bit of hard-working, and a bit of

:41:41.:41:46.

community, we can succeeds with Government support. We have the

:41:47.:41:51.

potential, the natural resources, and the landscape were people love

:41:52.:41:57.

to love, love, and invest. We have every reason to be optimistic we

:41:58.:42:01.

will be an asset to the country. Copeland 's is on the brink of

:42:02.:42:03.

most exciting, game changing most exciting, game changing

:42:04.:42:11.

transition. But we need investment to kick-start it. I campaigned on

:42:12.:42:18.

sex vital points. -- seeks vital points. I wanted to make a success

:42:19.:42:28.

of Brexit. I wanted secure new building to attract international

:42:29.:42:38.

investment. Our Government must commit two new nuclear. An

:42:39.:42:46.

infrastructure is holding back our ability to diversify and thigh.

:42:47.:42:53.

Building resilience against poverty, which wrecks lives and livelihoods

:42:54.:42:59.

is also essential. Access is a key enabler, particular NI rule area. If

:43:00.:43:06.

you really are to compete in a global marketplace. Including mobile

:43:07.:43:10.

and connectivity will make a huge difference to our ability to do

:43:11.:43:15.

business on a global market and to ensure a bright future for our young

:43:16.:43:20.

people. The announcement and the spring budget supporting an enormous

:43:21.:43:22.

increase in technical apprenticeships is wonderful news.

:43:23.:43:30.

To secure services, west, in hospital and Whitehaven, ensuring

:43:31.:43:38.

that we keep our 24-hour, seven day a week, consultant led maternity has

:43:39.:43:39.

been one of my aims to write my been one of my aims to write my

:43:40.:43:43.

election campaign and as a member of Parliament. I was born at that

:43:44.:43:48.

hospital, and all for my daughters were too. My community has

:43:49.:43:52.

demonstrated very clearly the importance of maintaining such an

:43:53.:44:00.

essential service. I have been able to meet with the Secretary of State

:44:01.:44:03.

for Health and have visited the hospital to seek new wards, and to

:44:04.:44:10.

meet the staff to understand the barriers are having a fully

:44:11.:44:12.

operational departments in the future. We now have a fully staffed

:44:13.:44:19.

maternity departments. The trust has been removed from special measures,

:44:20.:44:23.

already invested by this Government, already invested by this Government,

:44:24.:44:29.

we have the funding secured for the final phase of the hospital's

:44:30.:44:38.

construction. Supporting a for the recruitment drive is my priority.

:44:39.:44:42.

Positive action, listening to concerns, tackle problems head-on,

:44:43.:44:45.

working with our community who really care as for many years been

:44:46.:44:52.

my mantra. I will continue to strive enthusiastically forward because I

:44:53.:44:55.

believe passionately in Copeland. Its people and its potential.

:44:56.:45:00.

Tanning to today's debate on the Finance Bill, I have seen that this

:45:01.:45:05.

Government as they only Government that can deliver a stronger, more

:45:06.:45:12.

secure economy. The economy is indeed getting stronger, and

:45:13.:45:17.

growing. Employment rates are at record highs and the deficit has

:45:18.:45:21.

been reduced in honestly sends its brief financial crisis peaked. We

:45:22.:45:28.

are in a much stronger position than 2010, but I recognise that you must

:45:29.:45:31.

not become complacent, we must continue to reduce the country's

:45:32.:45:37.

debt and the deficit even farther. We cannot, as previous Labour

:45:38.:45:42.

governments have done, borrow endlessly to sell holes. We need to

:45:43.:45:47.

get the public finances in good order to safeguard our future, the

:45:48.:45:51.

future I want from my daughters and their generation. Finally, Copeland

:45:52.:45:56.

has been my home since I was born. It is an area I know and love. The

:45:57.:46:02.

opportunity to represent the community is I grew up in as a

:46:03.:46:07.

member of Parliament is truly a great honour, and I will ensure that

:46:08.:46:13.

our towns and rural communities voice is heard loud and clear. I'm

:46:14.:46:19.

utterly committed to fighting hard to deliver on promises made to my

:46:20.:46:27.

constituent during the election. I am extremely grateful for the time

:46:28.:46:30.

you have allowed and for the opportunity to deliver my maiden

:46:31.:46:31.

speech in this debate. Can I just say to the parable lady,

:46:32.:46:44.

can I offer for her to join the rugby league group? Thank you very

:46:45.:46:51.

much Mr Deputy Speaker. Can I take the opportunity warmly welcome the

:46:52.:46:59.

new member of Copland. I am particularly pleased we have finally

:47:00.:47:02.

broken that Barry of the number of women being elected, I am delighted

:47:03.:47:09.

that has happened. As a child, I holidayed in her constituency and

:47:10.:47:14.

visited where Beatrix Potter crated the animals and the Museum and I

:47:15.:47:17.

remember it very fondly and I'm can see the passion she can speak with

:47:18.:47:22.

her constituency and the man she cares about the area, truly local

:47:23.:47:29.

MP, so a huge welcome to the House, who knows if we will see you act...

:47:30.:47:34.

Who knows if we will be back in June! In terms of turning back to

:47:35.:47:41.

the first grouping we have today, specifically around income tax and

:47:42.:47:48.

more generally, on the way this bill is progressing in Parliament.

:47:49.:47:57.

Obviously with the surprise announcement of a general election,

:47:58.:48:00.

this Finance (No. 2) Bill 's far different from what it was to look

:48:01.:48:07.

before it was brought to the House. I am sure the ministers are in a

:48:08.:48:14.

similar position, we only received provisional notification last night

:48:15.:48:23.

to changes, so there is not going to be the level of scrutiny over some

:48:24.:48:27.

of the things, but there will also be a slight level of confusion in

:48:28.:48:31.

the proceedings today given the fact that have been so many things

:48:32.:48:35.

withdrawn. I wanted to to welcome the Government withdrawing the

:48:36.:48:43.

dividend tax rate threshold change. That is something we argued against

:48:44.:48:47.

in second reading and something we have spoken about and how later to

:48:48.:48:50.

the Government and I am pleased they have chosen to do that today given

:48:51.:48:54.

that was a particularly contentious part of what was put forward. A

:48:55.:48:59.

couple of more general things around income tax and the changes, I said

:49:00.:49:04.

previously, and I am quite happy to state again, I appreciate the

:49:05.:49:08.

increases the Government has made to personal allowance and the increases

:49:09.:49:12.

to the minimum wage. I have said before, and I will say again, I do

:49:13.:49:18.

not think these go far enough, we do not have... We have a national

:49:19.:49:22.

living wage, but there is no calculation on whether people can

:49:23.:49:29.

live on this. Thank you very much for the points. The national living

:49:30.:49:32.

wage is not actually a real living wage, it is... It is not go far

:49:33.:49:37.

enough and is only available for people over the age of 25. I agree

:49:38.:49:42.

with my colleague in Glasgow on that. I think it is a problem that

:49:43.:49:47.

this increase on the minimum wage is not applied to under 25 's. It's

:49:48.:49:51.

because you are under 25 does not mean you are doing less of a job

:49:52.:49:56.

then anyone who is over 25 and they should be just as applicable to get

:49:57.:50:01.

the minimum wage as those who are older. The only issue is with the

:50:02.:50:08.

tax credit changes more than balance out the amount of people I

:50:09.:50:16.

getting... People are at the bottom getting... People are at the bottom

:50:17.:50:20.

of the pile and worse off due to this. I think despite the fact the

:50:21.:50:29.

Government can't stand to talk about the facts about how great this is,

:50:30.:50:35.

how great this is, and when people are working our worse off as a

:50:36.:50:39.

result of tax credit changes. One more general thing around taxation,

:50:40.:50:45.

the Government has made a view suggestions and some have been

:50:46.:50:50.

withdrawn and some not, around the taxation of self-employment. The

:50:51.:50:56.

Government is intending to try and equalise employment and

:50:57.:50:59.

self-employment and the taxation levels that people face in those two

:51:00.:51:02.

situations. However the thing that is missing from this is people who

:51:03.:51:06.

are in self implement to not get the same benefits as those in

:51:07.:51:11.

deployment. No maternity leave, holiday entitlement to lament, they

:51:12.:51:16.

do not get those things. I will argue that if the Government is

:51:17.:51:20.

making changes to self-employment, it needs to do so in the ground. It

:51:21.:51:25.

needs to stop tinkering and look at the whole situation, it needs to do

:51:26.:51:30.

a proper review and it needs to come back with the results of the review

:51:31.:51:35.

and consult on any changes to make, rather than... For example, changes

:51:36.:51:44.

with little pre-consultation being with little pre-consultation being

:51:45.:51:49.

done, it needs to properly consult how taxation should look for

:51:50.:51:52.

individuals whether they are employed or self-employed. I am not

:51:53.:52:00.

sure that the terror review goes far enough. I would like to see the

:52:01.:52:07.

Taylor review take into account self-employment in the round and

:52:08.:52:10.

take in all of the factors that says those who are self-employed. We need

:52:11.:52:16.

to remember, Mr Deputy Speaker, the changes that have been in the self

:52:17.:52:19.

employed landscape in recent years. We have seen an increase in women

:52:20.:52:24.

unemployed, we have seen a massive increase in older people who are in

:52:25.:52:27.

self-employment and I think the changes the Government are making

:52:28.:52:32.

does not take in to account changes in the landscape. I would like to

:52:33.:52:35.

see this as a whole thing rather than a tinkering thing. In terms of

:52:36.:52:41.

this grouping, Mr Deputy Speaker, that was pretty much all I had to

:52:42.:52:45.

say, Pat to welcome the withdrawal of the dividend tax threshold

:52:46.:52:53.

changes. Thank you Mr Chairman. Can I also congratulate the Honourable

:52:54.:52:59.

member for probe on a fine maiden speech and thank her for her

:53:00.:53:03.

well-deserved condiments to her predecessor and the said as he did.

:53:04.:53:09.

She spoke with passion and understanding of her beautiful

:53:10.:53:12.

constituency, as well as Peter Rabbit. I don't think any of us here

:53:13.:53:17.

will envy her, this speedy transition from by-election to

:53:18.:53:21.

general election. I congratulate her. I made my own maiden speech to

:53:22.:53:25.

this house on the remaining stages of the 1987 Finance Bill, so there

:53:26.:53:31.

is a certain symmetry in my making my last remarks on this one. On the

:53:32.:53:37.

substance of the Bill, it is too often overlooked, this was talking

:53:38.:53:45.

about a bouncing public spending, but whilst it is often talked about

:53:46.:53:49.

balancing the budget, the last Government to do so was Labour in

:53:50.:53:56.

2001, 2000 two. Right now it makes sense to invest more in

:53:57.:54:01.

infrastructure, training and public services with action to come back

:54:02.:54:06.

poverty and secure Brexit determines which enable our country to grow and

:54:07.:54:13.

our country to flourish. I wish we had a Finance Bill the social

:54:14.:54:18.

justice, standing up for the many, not the few. And that is what we

:54:19.:54:24.

need a Labour Government for. It has been a privilege to be an MP in and

:54:25.:54:32.

out of Government, and I thank the staff of the House, the library,

:54:33.:54:37.

those whose keep hope us safe, and I'm grateful to all colleagues and

:54:38.:54:46.

wish them well for the future. A huge thank you to all who have

:54:47.:54:51.

helped me surfer 30 years for the wonderful constituency of Oxford

:54:52.:54:56.

East, my family and friends, my neighbours, our party members and

:54:57.:55:03.

supporters, my trade union members, my office staff and party organisers

:55:04.:55:07.

across the years. Most of all, my constituents. Thank you. Can I wish

:55:08.:55:16.

you well. Can I also thank the members for Copeland for such a

:55:17.:55:22.

passionate and entertaining speech. It is good to have a representative

:55:23.:55:26.

of the land of Beatrix Potter here in this chamber. I will be slightly

:55:27.:55:32.

wicked and say I listened very carefully to her last point about

:55:33.:55:38.

the Government and the deficit and that the Government was bringing the

:55:39.:55:42.

deficit down. I'm sure she knows that there is a forecast in rise in

:55:43.:55:46.

Government bothering this financial year and she may wish to ask why.

:55:47.:55:51.

One question for the Minister in this grouping of questions, in the

:55:52.:55:58.

minister's introduction, she notably failed white clause five has been

:55:59.:56:02.

withdrawn. This is the clause referring to the proposed reduction

:56:03.:56:07.

in dividend income that that investors in sparking bunnies can

:56:08.:56:11.

take. If the Government in Paris to buy that caused and is that why it

:56:12.:56:23.

is being withdrawn? As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the

:56:24.:56:24.

contrary, "no". The ayes habit. As many as are of the opinion, say

:56:25.:56:48.

"aye". To the contrary, "no".. The question is that clause six stand

:56:49.:56:55.

part of the Bill. Act stop the ayes habit. We now come to group to

:56:56.:57:04.

taxation and income tax avoidance and tax evasion. Minister to move.

:57:05.:57:13.

Thank you. Perhaps before I say something about the group to, if I

:57:14.:57:18.

could comment on both the maiden speech and the retirement speech. It

:57:19.:57:23.

was a real honour to be here in the chamber for the Honourable MP for

:57:24.:57:31.

Copeland's speech. She reminded many of us on this side of the chamber

:57:32.:57:36.

has she inspired us to make the journey up to her constituency in

:57:37.:57:41.

that we were supposing a fantastic woman with a passion of her

:57:42.:57:47.

community. I had many friendly dealings with Jamie Reid and I was

:57:48.:57:53.

in the Department of Health, so I welcome her comments. Vista

:57:54.:57:56.

Chairman, it was a wonderful maiden speech and I look forward to many

:57:57.:58:02.

from her in the future. I wish her and her rather long-suffering family

:58:03.:58:06.

for the weeks ahead. She spoke with conviction about the contribution of

:58:07.:58:11.

nuclear power, but I rather think in the forthcoming campaign it will be

:58:12.:58:17.

girl power to the fore. To the Honourable member of Oxford East, it

:58:18.:58:20.

is nice to hear members reflect upon their time in this house and the way

:58:21.:58:28.

they have served, and as he noted, a nice book ending with a Finance Bill

:58:29.:58:32.

debate and a final contribution on Treasury matters and, of course, he

:58:33.:58:37.

paid tribute to his constituents. I'm sure in these circumstances, one

:58:38.:58:42.

has less time than once thought to do a round of goodbyes, but I am

:58:43.:58:46.

sure he will be continuing to be active in his community, and I

:58:47.:58:51.

congratulate him on his speech and thank him on perhaps of the House.

:58:52.:58:59.

Let me turn to group two, taxation of employment income and clause on

:59:00.:59:06.

income tax and evasion. I know there are a number of clauses and

:59:07.:59:09.

schedules in this group including a new clause from the Honourable

:59:10.:59:12.

member for Aberdeen North. I'm going to focus on clause seven and a

:59:13.:59:18.

schedule which refers to workers and services provided to the full

:59:19.:59:22.

service to intermediaries which might be of interest to members, but

:59:23.:59:26.

I will address other areas in the course of the debate. Clause seven

:59:27.:59:36.

and schedule one show of payment... Individuals working in the public

:59:37.:59:40.

sector. The tax system needs to keep pace with the different ways in

:59:41.:59:45.

which people are working. As the Chancellor set out in the Autumn

:59:46.:59:49.

Statement, the public 's finances face a risk. The Government

:59:50.:00:01.

estimates in 2021, 22, the people wanting to work through company will

:00:02.:00:03.

be through six billion pounds. This goes through people working through

:00:04.:00:08.

their own personal service company, if it were not for that company,

:00:09.:00:14.

they would not be cost as employees. There is a design that individuals

:00:15.:00:21.

work in a similar way to employees, they hate broadly the same taxes as

:00:22.:00:25.

employees. However, noncompliance with these rules is currently

:00:26.:00:32.

widespread, H MRC estimates 10% who should operate these do so. But a

:00:33.:00:39.

?100 million is lost every across the economy around 20% relates to

:00:40.:00:44.

noncompliance in the public sector. This is neither sustainable nor

:00:45.:00:49.

further. We think there was a responsibility to taxpayers that

:00:50.:00:54.

people working for them are paying the right amount of tax. It is

:00:55.:00:57.

therefore right that individuals doing the same job should be taxed

:00:58.:01:02.

in a similar way regardless of whether or not they are working to a

:01:03.:01:03.

company. The changes being made addresses

:01:04.:01:12.

They may have responsibility for They may have responsibility for

:01:13.:01:16.

determine whether or not the payroll working rules applies to the public

:01:17.:01:20.

authority is the individual is working for from the sex of April

:01:21.:01:24.

2017, they also make the public authority agency or other third

:01:25.:01:29.

responsible for operating PAYE on responsible for operating PAYE on

:01:30.:01:35.

those payments. This will improve compliance with the rules. It is

:01:36.:01:41.

also important to note that the reform does not introduce a new tax

:01:42.:01:48.

liability nor does it affect it generally self-employed. It will

:01:49.:01:49.

simply ensure the current rules are simply ensure the current rules are

:01:50.:01:55.

implied as intended. If clarity is needed, each MRC have watched

:01:56.:01:58.

extensively through stakeholders to develop the new digital check

:01:59.:02:06.

service which people can use to help implement the changes. That has been

:02:07.:02:09.

licensed last month and used many thousands of times. To assess people

:02:10.:02:15.

and looking at how to apply those rules. On that note, I've had people

:02:16.:02:24.

mentioned to me that no matter what information they pretend, it has

:02:25.:02:26.

always told them that they have got to pay a higher level of tax than

:02:27.:02:31.

the previously expecting to. I had concerns with the meat about that

:02:32.:02:36.

tool and the shortcomings with that and the fact that HMRC is always

:02:37.:02:41.

asking them to pay too high level of tax. I think the best thing ability

:02:42.:02:49.

can do is to send of that through immediately and before disillusion

:02:50.:02:55.

in order that HMRC can look at the factual issues. I'd be surprised,

:02:56.:02:58.

but let as asked them to look at the but let as asked them to look at the

:02:59.:03:06.

practical issues she raises and perhaps why we're off or doing other

:03:07.:03:10.

things that is something they can look at FC supplies the information

:03:11.:03:13.

in the next few days. They have worked with the Cabinet Office to

:03:14.:03:17.

produce guidance for public produce guidance for public

:03:18.:03:20.

authorities and have supported them to implement the changes. There is

:03:21.:03:28.

an amendment the Government has laid, and that is a technical

:03:29.:03:34.

amendment to ensure the reform only applies to the public sector, as set

:03:35.:03:38.

out in the initial announcement. The Government believes it is essential

:03:39.:03:45.

to ensure that those in receipt academic correct amount of tax and

:03:46.:03:54.

that these titles raise as a sandal amount of ready by forcing that

:03:55.:04:05.

compliance by 2122. I therefore move that these clauses stand part of the

:04:06.:04:19.

bell. Thank you very much. I would like to talk about the issues raised

:04:20.:04:24.

in gripping to a new clause one. Starting off with a IR 35 Ashes that

:04:25.:04:33.

the Minister has covered in some detail. We still have real concerns

:04:34.:04:37.

about the changes. Just the other day, somebody said to me that they

:04:38.:04:43.

will no longer bad for public sector contracts on the basis of the

:04:44.:04:47.

changes made and an IR 35. I think that is a real concern, and it is

:04:48.:04:51.

something we have raised before particularly in the context of rural

:04:52.:04:59.

communities. People like teachers, nurses, unemployed through

:05:00.:05:04.

intermediaries to very good reasons, it is sometimes difficult to get

:05:05.:05:09.

people to come to rural communities. We are in concerned this is going to

:05:10.:05:15.

have a real disadvantage particular for rural communities who rely on

:05:16.:05:19.

teachers and doctors and individuals working in the public sector who are

:05:20.:05:24.

understand that this is having an understand that this is having an

:05:25.:05:28.

impact of ready, but it would be very interesting for the Government,

:05:29.:05:33.

and would appreciate it, if they would come back and letters know

:05:34.:05:36.

what differences has made is not just to the Government's tax take

:05:37.:05:40.

but what differences has made to our community is and what impact this

:05:41.:05:50.

has had. Having read the documents, the document about the changes, I

:05:51.:05:55.

don't think they recognise the impact that this could have on

:05:56.:06:01.

interesting to see that going interesting to see that going

:06:02.:06:04.

forward, this has a ready been implemented, the change has already

:06:05.:06:08.

been made, so we are already working within this, so I would imagine

:06:09.:06:12.

would be able to see the outcomes within six months. Around tax

:06:13.:06:20.

avoidance, and a new clause in relation to it, this is something

:06:21.:06:26.

that the SNP has spoken about at length in this Parliament and will

:06:27.:06:29.

continue to speak about at length. Tax avoidance is something that is a

:06:30.:06:36.

real concern, and it contributes to the Government's tax gap. There is a

:06:37.:06:44.

gap of ?36 billion. There was a report in 2014 that suggests this is

:06:45.:06:47.

something larger companies like the United Kingdom struggle with. Trying

:06:48.:06:53.

to get people to not avoid tax. Small countries are much better at

:06:54.:07:04.

this. Just pointing that out. Best news -- we asked the Chancellor of

:07:05.:07:12.

the executive in two months review best practices and listen to

:07:13.:07:16.

combating tax evasion and bring forward a report on this review. We

:07:17.:07:21.

are asking this because we don't think that the United Kingdom is the

:07:22.:07:26.

best place in the world at tackling tax avoidance, we certainly don't

:07:27.:07:29.

think it is the best that all of the different ways of tackling tax

:07:30.:07:33.

avoidance, and there is a huge amount we can learn from different

:07:34.:07:36.

countries about what they are doing. I think this would be a really

:07:37.:07:41.

sensible way forward and I hope the Government would be keen to accept

:07:42.:07:48.

this new clause. The other thing... Just around tax avoidance, something

:07:49.:07:53.

else we mentioned is about the protection of whistle-blowers. They

:07:54.:08:00.

tend to have very pure health, are tend towards very poor health

:08:01.:08:06.

because of whistle-blowing. It is really important people are

:08:07.:08:06.

encouraged to come forward if they encouraged to come forward if they

:08:07.:08:10.

easy as possible for them to come easy as possible for them to come

:08:11.:08:13.

forward, because we need them to come forward and tell as the

:08:14.:08:19.

practice is going wrong, and were tax dodging is happening. We would

:08:20.:08:23.

support the Government in any mood at with make to encourage

:08:24.:08:27.

whistle-blowers and to allow them a better environment in which to come

:08:28.:08:34.

forward. Lastly, around Brexit, and around the possibility of the United

:08:35.:08:41.

Kingdom becoming a tax haven. We would absolutely reject the notion

:08:42.:08:47.

that the United Kingdom after Brexit should just reduce taxes to nearly

:08:48.:08:51.

nothing. That does not work if you want to have public services like

:08:52.:08:58.

the NHS. It simply... I'm hoping everyone here is supportive of the

:08:59.:09:05.

NHS, but I get by the Honourable member of for Glasgow believes the

:09:06.:09:12.

aunt. We need the NHS to be supported, and any taxes to, and to

:09:13.:09:16.

support it. I thank the Honourable Lady forgetting away. This year

:09:17.:09:22.

degree that order should be on maximising the tax take. The

:09:23.:09:27.

reduction in tax could lead to an increase in tax take. I agree with

:09:28.:09:31.

bookies should be an maximising tax take but I would go rounded and a

:09:32.:09:35.

different way. I would try to different way. I would try to

:09:36.:09:40.

encourage companies and individuals and the economy to grow, trying to

:09:41.:09:45.

get people into more productive jobs, and increase productivity. An

:09:46.:09:47.

increase in productivity is something the Government has

:09:48.:09:52.

mentioned and something we have been good at in Scotland recently. It is

:09:53.:09:58.

higher than at sides of the border. That is why I would start. -- than

:09:59.:10:07.

size of the border. I am just about size of the border. I am just about

:10:08.:10:14.

to vanish. Our new goal. We have got plenty of time. I thank the

:10:15.:10:21.

Honourable Lady forgetting way. Very briefly, does she not agreeing that

:10:22.:10:30.

by reducing tax in this country, reducing corporation tax in

:10:31.:10:34.

particular, we are more likely to attract inward investment and new

:10:35.:10:38.

companies from around the globe to this country, thereby producing the

:10:39.:10:45.

taxes to pay for our public services. I do not believe that

:10:46.:10:48.

there is a huge amount of evidence for that. And companies are looking

:10:49.:10:56.

at where to base their headquarters, corporation tax doesn't feature all

:10:57.:11:00.

that highly on the list of places. They are looking for good and the

:11:01.:11:03.

structure, good schools, good support in this journey and it is

:11:04.:11:08.

four and a vigil. Corporation tax is not at the top of that list. I would

:11:09.:11:18.

do other things first. It will be someday. That is the end of my

:11:19.:11:28.

comments. Thank you. The question is that clause seven stand part of the

:11:29.:11:38.

it. As many as are of the opinion, it. As many as are of the opinion,

:11:39.:11:45.

say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The aye savant.

:11:46.:11:58.

That close 11 stand part of the bell. As many as are of the opinion,

:11:59.:12:05.

say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The aye have it. Closes 12 to 16,

:12:06.:12:13.

the question is that clauses 12 to 16 stab part of the bill. As many as

:12:14.:12:17.

are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I think the nose

:12:18.:12:24.

17 and 18 stand part of the bill. As 17 and 18 stand part of the bill. As

:12:25.:12:28.

many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The

:12:29.:12:35.

aye have full stop the question is that 19 and 20 stand part of the

:12:36.:12:39.

bell. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I

:12:40.:12:46.

think the nose have it. The question is closed 21 stand part of bill. As

:12:47.:12:49.

many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The

:12:50.:12:55.

ayes have it. The question is clauses 22 to 44 sad part of the

:12:56.:13:01.

bill. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I

:13:02.:13:12.

think the nose have it. The question is that clauses 45 to 47

:13:13.:13:14.

of the bell. As many as are of the of the bell. As many as are of the

:13:15.:13:17.

"no". The ayes have it. We come to "no". The ayes have it. We come

:13:18.:13:24.

clause 40 eight. The Government clause 40 eight. The Government

:13:25.:13:37.

amended for a proposed clause 48, the question is should the amendment

:13:38.:13:40.

be made. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,

:13:41.:13:47.

"no". The ayes have it. The question is that clause 48 as amended

:13:48.:13:48.

part of the bell. As many as are of part of the bell. As many as are of

:13:49.:13:51.

the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes covered.

:13:52.:14:00.

Clauses 49 to 56. The question is that they stand part of the bell. As

:14:01.:14:03.

many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no".. I

:14:04.:14:08.

think the nose have it. We now come to the next set. The group on the

:14:09.:14:16.

value added tax and the question that clause 47 stand part of the

:14:17.:14:20.

bill with which it will be conveniently considered schedules 19

:14:21.:14:28.

and two. Thank you very much. I beg to move that clause 57 stand part of

:14:29.:14:33.

the bell. No VAT is charged by an adapted vehicle by an four disabled

:14:34.:14:41.

allow wheelchair users to allow allow wheelchair users to allow

:14:42.:14:46.

independent has been abused by an scrupulous people. They are selling

:14:47.:14:50.

the vehicles on for additional profit. We have discovered for

:14:51.:14:56.

example that one person purchased 30 BMW's under the scheme in one day,

:14:57.:15:03.

and another part 100 vehicles of the nature I would describe as

:15:04.:15:09.

high-performance sports cars and the like, again, that was an under two

:15:10.:15:14.

years. This is clear abuse of the scheme, and the scheme's integrity

:15:15.:15:25.

as questioned by this behaviour. Clause 57 bullish set the number of

:15:26.:15:30.

vehicles and individuals are some in under half of that individual may

:15:31.:15:32.

purchase under the scheme to one every three years. There is.

:15:33.:15:44.

Foster's the legislation recognises that the replacement vehicle make

:15:45.:15:49.

genuine need to be practice within the period. An addition, because

:15:50.:15:56.

makes it mandatory for elasticity met paperwork to HMRC as well as

:15:57.:16:02.

apply penalties to those abusing the scheme. We expect those changes will

:16:03.:16:06.

support those who it is intended to add the cost of about ?40 million

:16:07.:16:11.

per year by reducing fraud and saving taxpayers up to ?80 million

:16:12.:16:15.

over the next five years. The Chancellor announced these changes

:16:16.:16:19.

in the Autumn Statement, and they were welcomed by key stakeholders

:16:20.:16:24.

including disabled motor UK, who stated that disabled motoring UK

:16:25.:16:25.

supporting the efforts of the supporting the efforts of the

:16:26.:16:28.

Government to safeguard the scheme and make sure it is only access by

:16:29.:16:30.

eligible disabled motorists. It is our intention we tackle this

:16:31.:16:41.

fraud but continue to offer financial support to disabled

:16:42.:16:45.

wheelchair users to lead independent lives. I moved that clause 57 stands

:16:46.:16:53.

part of the bill. Let me turn to new clause two. Scheduled by the SNP. We

:16:54.:16:58.

returned to a subject that has had the doting in this chamber before.

:16:59.:17:06.

The issue of VAT on Scottish fire and rescue. This new clause has been

:17:07.:17:10.

tabled by the honourable member for Aberdeen North. It requests that the

:17:11.:17:14.

Treasury commissioned a review of the VAT treatment of the Scottish

:17:15.:17:18.

police authority and the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. Reporting

:17:19.:17:22.

the costs of VAT at present and how this would change if they were

:17:23.:17:29.

eligible for refunds. Mr Chairman, to recover by comments that have

:17:30.:17:33.

been made from this dispatch box before, to receive sections 33 VAT

:17:34.:17:38.

refunds a body must receive funding through local taxation and perform a

:17:39.:17:43.

function of a local authority. Now in 2012 the Scottish Government

:17:44.:17:47.

restructured its regional police and Fire Services into two national

:17:48.:17:52.

bodies. Police Scotland be Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. Both are

:17:53.:17:56.

funded locally and do not, let me complete the exposition, if I can,

:17:57.:18:01.

of why this doesn't qualify. Both those bodies are funded centrally,

:18:02.:18:08.

rather than through local taxation, therefore do not meet eligibility

:18:09.:18:13.

criteria for section 33 VAT refunds. The Treasury warned the Scottish

:18:14.:18:16.

Government in advance that making these changes would result in the

:18:17.:18:21.

last of VAT refunds and so in deciding to go ahead be Scottish

:18:22.:18:24.

Government fully considered the costs and benefits of doing so

:18:25.:18:29.

including the loss of VAT refunds. Therefore, there is no additional

:18:30.:18:32.

benefits to be had from the Government committing Resorts and

:18:33.:18:36.

time to produce a report on this issue. I therefore urge the

:18:37.:18:41.

committee to reject new clause two. Just before I finish give way.

:18:42.:18:45.

I wonder if the Chief Secretary can tell us how London legacy and

:18:46.:18:51.

England are funded. These are all matters that have been

:18:52.:18:55.

covered before. I referred the honourable lady two comments I've

:18:56.:19:00.

made previously in response to similar comments and interventions.

:19:01.:19:04.

It is not just in finance Bill is that these measures have been

:19:05.:19:08.

discussed, but also during the passage of the Scotland Bill there

:19:09.:19:12.

was discussion of this. Again, the message was the same. This was a

:19:13.:19:17.

decision taken in the full knowledge of the VAT consequences, therefore I

:19:18.:19:21.

urge her to reject the tabled new clause which calls Riverview.

:19:22.:19:27.

Thank you, very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. If the Minister changes the

:19:28.:19:34.

consideration of the Scottish police and fire I promise not to raise this

:19:35.:19:38.

again in the house. I see she's getting fed up of discussing this,

:19:39.:19:43.

and frankly, so am I. But if the Government were to move on this we

:19:44.:19:47.

would not raise it again. Would she give way? The other option open to

:19:48.:19:54.

the Government would be to devolve power over VAT to the Scottish

:19:55.:19:58.

parliament so that it could make all these decisions. We were promised

:19:59.:20:02.

the most powerful legislature in the world so why doesn't the Government

:20:03.:20:04.

live up to that commitment and give us the powers we need?

:20:05.:20:09.

I agree with my colleague. What we have is devolved portions of VAT

:20:10.:20:15.

which actually makes not a huge amount of sense. Although we welcome

:20:16.:20:19.

any new power was coming to be Scottish parliament it would be much

:20:20.:20:23.

better if we had all control over fat rather than just an income. In

:20:24.:20:29.

terms of this, the Scottish police and Fire Service are charged VAT,

:20:30.:20:36.

and like highways England, which is a national English body, and like

:20:37.:20:41.

London legacy which is a national UK wide body. Both of those the UK

:20:42.:20:47.

Government has created exemption for because the UK Government decided

:20:48.:20:50.

was a good idea. They have not done this for Scottish police and fire.

:20:51.:20:58.

This is costing the Scottish people because Scottish police and Scottish

:20:59.:21:01.

Fire have to pay this VAT bill to the UK Government rather than having

:21:02.:21:07.

the money to spend. But she give way? Yes. There's that charge is

:21:08.:21:14.

costing Scotland's emergency services tens of millions of pounds

:21:15.:21:19.

per year. Does she agree with me that both her constituents and mine

:21:20.:21:24.

would rather this money was spent fighting crime and funding emergency

:21:25.:21:26.

services rather than plugging the holes in the Tory government budget

:21:27.:21:29.

because of poor planning and budgeting?

:21:30.:21:35.

I absolutely agree with my colleague. In June 2016 it was

:21:36.:21:39.

reported that Scotland's single police force has paid ?76.5 million

:21:40.:21:46.

in VAT since it was formed in the three years previously. It remains

:21:47.:21:51.

unable to claim that tax. The UK Government has created exemption is

:21:52.:21:54.

for other bodies it sees as important. Why are London Legacy And

:21:55.:21:59.

Highways England more important than Scottish police and Scottish Fire?

:22:00.:22:04.

We ask the UK Government to change this. The question is that clause 57

:22:05.:22:10.

stand as part of the bill. Decision-macro. The ayes have

:22:11.:22:20.

we now stand with the question at clause lifted becomes part of the

:22:21.:22:26.

bill with which it is convenient to consider the question at clause 59

:22:27.:22:34.

stands as part of the bill. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Clause 58

:22:35.:22:37.

legislate is for the increase in standard rates premium tax from 12%

:22:38.:22:42.

to 10% as announced at the Autumn Statement 2016. This change will be

:22:43.:22:46.

effective from the 1st of June this year. Clause 59 makes minor changes

:22:47.:22:51.

to provision so insurers cannot artificially avoid is paying the new

:22:52.:22:57.

rate of tax by adjusting contact days. The Government remains can

:22:58.:23:01.

admitted to the fiscal mandate of eliminating the deficit. Much as but

:23:02.:23:05.

she. The Government is forecast to have reduced the deficit by two

:23:06.:23:09.

thirds by the end of this year. In 2018 and 19 debt will fall for the

:23:10.:23:14.

first time in 16 years. However, we cannot be complacent. A recent

:23:15.:23:20.

report highlights the challenges posed on an ageing population.

:23:21.:23:25.

Projecting debt almost trebling by 234% over the next 50 years. If no

:23:26.:23:32.

further action is taken. I'm so sorry to interrupt the honourable

:23:33.:23:36.

lady, but I speak on behalf of a Scout group who are most concerned

:23:37.:23:42.

about the impact insurance premium tax increases will have on

:23:43.:23:48.

charities. Not just Scout groups. Has she considered this matter since

:23:49.:23:51.

my boyfriend raise this previously, and does she have good news if not

:23:52.:23:55.

for the whole charity sector, at least for the -- honourable friend

:23:56.:24:07.

raise this. I am happy to put his local Scout group on the record, as

:24:08.:24:14.

it were. I attended and spoke at a charity tax conference recently. The

:24:15.:24:22.

point I made to them is that whilst we aren't speaking exceptions for a

:24:23.:24:26.

number of reasons, some of them logistical, there are a lot of

:24:27.:24:29.

different ways in which the Government exempts and tries to tax

:24:30.:24:34.

for charities and sports them in other ways. The existing tax reliefs

:24:35.:24:38.

that go to charities and community groups in this country are worth

:24:39.:24:42.

many billions, and there are many that are not taken up as much as

:24:43.:24:46.

recovered. In particular, I don't know if the honourable gentleman

:24:47.:24:51.

noted it, that the issue of Scout groups got a very thorough airing

:24:52.:24:55.

during the passage of the gift aid donation scheme measures that we

:24:56.:25:00.

took through the house last autumn. Measures designed to help groups

:25:01.:25:05.

like that but do a lot of their fundraising outside of the

:25:06.:25:10.

headquarters, as it were. So whilst I can't give him comfort on this

:25:11.:25:13.

issue, I would draw his attention to the fact that there are many other

:25:14.:25:17.

ways in which we have two relief groups with the groups, particularly

:25:18.:25:21.

that recent change which I would encourage him to discuss with the

:25:22.:25:29.

Scout group because, that one was taken very much with them in mind

:25:30.:25:36.

with regard to collecting donations. Thank you very much. Essentially,

:25:37.:25:41.

this is one of the taxes the Government is keeping in. It's the

:25:42.:25:46.

third tax rising 18 months for insurance premium tax. With the

:25:47.:25:49.

minister justify why the Government is proposing this third increase

:25:50.:25:54.

which increases the rate by 20%? Well above the rate of inflation.

:25:55.:26:02.

Well, yes, I am coming to that. I think the Chancellor was admirably

:26:03.:26:05.

clear in the way he laid this out for the house at the time. The

:26:06.:26:10.

Government has worked to eliminate the deficit and invest in Britain's

:26:11.:26:15.

future. We want to ensure the public finances remain sustainable.

:26:16.:26:18.

Building resilience to future shocks. We've prioritised as a

:26:19.:26:23.

government tax changes to help ordinary working families and

:26:24.:26:27.

encourage businesses to invest in the UK. We are supporting jobs and

:26:28.:26:33.

helping people's money to go further we've committed to investment in the

:26:34.:26:40.

national productivity investment fund for infrastructure and an ?2

:26:41.:26:45.

billion for social care which relieves pressure is on the NHS. Now

:26:46.:26:52.

an increasing insurers tax means we can mean time the balance between

:26:53.:26:55.

that investment and control the deficit. The Government gives the

:26:56.:27:01.

Blacks pretty impressed. There is a tax on insurance not in any way

:27:02.:27:05.

obliged to pass on the tax of higher premiums. As if they pass on the

:27:06.:27:09.

increase it will be spread thinly across a wide range of people and

:27:10.:27:13.

businesses. In line with the informal agreement between the

:27:14.:27:16.

Government and the social age and of British insurers firms should have

:27:17.:27:20.

been given over six months notice giving them time to implement the

:27:21.:27:24.

change. This gives insurers proper warning of a rate change and ensures

:27:25.:27:28.

the correct rate of tax on a policy is known when the policy is

:27:29.:27:33.

arranged. The changes made by clause lifted will raise approximately ?850

:27:34.:27:38.

million every year to reduce the deficit whilst assuring we can fund

:27:39.:27:42.

spending commitments. That is the answer to the previous intervention.

:27:43.:27:48.

Insurance premium taxes are not consumers, it will be insurance

:27:49.:27:51.

companies tries whether to pass on 2% rate increase. Even if increases

:27:52.:27:56.

were passed on in foil the impact would be very modest, costing

:27:57.:28:01.

households less than 35p a week on average. The changes made by close

:28:02.:28:05.

59 protect revenue earning sure they cannot avoid paying the new rate of

:28:06.:28:11.

IP TV adjusting contract dates. The Government, as I said, is committed

:28:12.:28:15.

to reducing the deficit while still investing in the UK. This requires

:28:16.:28:19.

some difficult decisions, including the 2% increase to the standard rate

:28:20.:28:23.

of IPT. This change will be invaluable in funding vital public

:28:24.:28:28.

spending, such as the additional ?2 billion committed for social care.

:28:29.:28:31.

Therefore, I moved that the clause stands part of the bill. Thank you,

:28:32.:28:43.

Mr Deputy Speaker. It's really interesting to hear the ministers

:28:44.:28:48.

say it only costs an average of 35p a week, 35p a week is quite a lot,

:28:49.:28:53.

particularly if you don't have an extra 35p a week. The ABI says that

:28:54.:29:00.

UK consumers and businesses already pay relatively high levels of IPT.

:29:01.:29:04.

It cannot be right that people are being forced to pay an increasingly

:29:05.:29:10.

high price for doing the responsible thing Mr Deputy Speaker, this is, as

:29:11.:29:14.

was said by my colleague, this is the third increase. At the start of

:29:15.:29:20.

parliament it was something like 3%, and 6.5, by 9.5. This has been

:29:21.:29:25.

increasing over the course of this Parliament. This is a tax on people

:29:26.:29:30.

doing the right thing. It is a tax on people insuring their homes and

:29:31.:29:34.

properties. I agree with the honourable member who spoke about

:29:35.:29:39.

the Scout group. This is also a tax on charities and organisations that

:29:40.:29:44.

are providing a brilliant experience for young boys and girls. I think

:29:45.:29:52.

that this has not been considered in to drag the Government has loved at

:29:53.:29:56.

this unseen opportunity to get a view extra pennies then. Absolutely.

:29:57.:30:03.

I'm very grateful for the honourable lady giving way. She, like me, may

:30:04.:30:09.

have a rural constituency with lots of young drivers experiencing high

:30:10.:30:13.

cost of insurance. Would she welcomed many signs from the

:30:14.:30:15.

Minister that this would be looked at in the future with respect to the

:30:16.:30:20.

impact it may have on the young, particularly if it impacts social

:30:21.:30:24.

mobility on the young? I appreciate the honourable member coming in with

:30:25.:30:29.

that. I don't actually have a rural constituency but I do live near one.

:30:30.:30:35.

I recognise that issues are faced by younger drivers. Particularly in

:30:36.:30:39.

rural areas we want young people to be able to access services. We want

:30:40.:30:44.

them to drive safely and afford insurance when they do so they can

:30:45.:30:47.

travel and access jobs and opportunities. And training, should

:30:48.:30:53.

they need to. I would agree with the member from the Conservatives, and

:30:54.:30:58.

ask, also, that this is one of the areas the Government looks at going

:30:59.:31:02.

forward. We cannot continue to see hikes in insurance premium tax. A

:31:03.:31:07.

20% hike is absolutely ridiculous, especially hot on the heels of other

:31:08.:31:12.

hikes in insurance premium tax. The Government needs to look seriously

:31:13.:31:16.

at this and commit to no further increases next Parliament.

:31:17.:31:21.

I have two points. First, to reiterate to the Minister, because

:31:22.:31:29.

she artfully shifted to saying there was a 2% rise in the tax. It is a

:31:30.:31:37.

two percentage point tax rise, 20% tax rise. I ask the Minister how she

:31:38.:31:44.

can justify that massive increase relative to inflation. She did not

:31:45.:31:48.

reply. As a Conservative tax cutter, I suppose she is embarrassed. I have

:31:49.:31:55.

another question I would like the Minister to answer. Can she rule out

:31:56.:32:04.

extending the provision of IPT? Clearly, IPT has been hit on by the

:32:05.:32:07.

Government because it is one of the few things it has not legislated not

:32:08.:32:11.

to increase is a form of taxation that will change doubtless in the

:32:12.:32:18.

Conservative manifesto. As long as this is the taxpayer sitting on

:32:19.:32:21.

because it is the one they have left, with the Minister very clearly

:32:22.:32:26.

states that they will not in future years extend IPT to the insurance

:32:27.:32:31.

market, which would net them more money? The question is that clause

:32:32.:32:38.

50 stand part of the bill. As many of that opinion is a aye. On the

:32:39.:32:42.

contrary, no. The ayes have it, the ayes have it.

:32:43.:32:53.

We now come to the group on landfill tax, alcohol duties, other duties of

:32:54.:33:00.

taxation, oil, gas and etc. We begin with the question of whether clause

:33:01.:33:03.

60 should be part of the bill, with which it is convenient to consider

:33:04.:33:10.

the clauses listed on the selection paper. Minister to move.

:33:11.:33:15.

Thank you very much. In this part of the debate, I planned to focus my

:33:16.:33:20.

comments particularly on alcohol duties, which I anticipate being of

:33:21.:33:25.

the greatest interest to honourable members. Other clauses within this

:33:26.:33:29.

group provides for other changes and we also have a new cause tabled for

:33:30.:33:35.

the honourable member for Aberdeen North baby oil and gas industry,

:33:36.:33:38.

which we might come to. Let me turn to clause 65 first. It sets out

:33:39.:33:43.

changes to alcohol duty rates taking effect on the 13th of March 20 17.

:33:44.:33:48.

The budget and ends that the duty rates on beer, wine cider and

:33:49.:33:54.

spirits would stay flat in real terms. This is in line with devious

:33:55.:34:00.

policy forecasts. As I know that members are probably aware, alcohol

:34:01.:34:07.

duties rise by RPI inflation each year, meaning there is a cost to the

:34:08.:34:10.

Exchequer Secretary de -- freezing or cutting alcohol duty rates. If

:34:11.:34:18.

there was a cut in 2017, the Government would have had instead to

:34:19.:34:21.

raise taxes in other areas of the economy, to cut public spending or

:34:22.:34:26.

increase the public deficit. Consumers and businesses continue to

:34:27.:34:28.

benefit from the previous alcohol duty changes, which initial

:34:29.:34:32.

estimates suggest will save them around ?3 billion in duty between

:34:33.:34:41.

fiscal year is 2015-2017. I will set out briefly how other Government

:34:42.:34:43.

policies have affected different rings in the sector. Let me turn to

:34:44.:34:47.

spirits duty. The Government recognises the important

:34:48.:34:51.

contribution that Scotch whisky makes to both the economy and local

:34:52.:34:55.

communities. The Scotch Whisky Association, who I had a meeting

:34:56.:35:00.

with and a chance to hear from directly, estimate that Scotch

:35:01.:35:10.

whisky, whisky ads -- Scotch whisky ads moans of pounds to the economy.

:35:11.:35:16.

I understand distilleries provide an important source of employment firm

:35:17.:35:19.

rural communities. The Scotch Whisky Association estimate that export to

:35:20.:35:25.

200 countries and every continent was worth ?4 billion last year and

:35:26.:35:29.

accounted for nearly 20% of all UK entered ex-pats. -- exports. Exports

:35:30.:35:38.

in malts were exceeding ?1 billion for the first time last year. More

:35:39.:35:43.

Scotch whisky is sold in France in one month land cognac in an entire

:35:44.:35:49.

year. We are committed to supporting this great British success story. It

:35:50.:35:56.

was one of the first food and drink products to feature in our campaign.

:35:57.:36:06.

There was a trade visit to India last year as well. There is a

:36:07.:36:13.

potential for whisky to grow to 5% of the market with the right trade

:36:14.:36:17.

agreement. That would be equivalent to a 10% increase in the current

:36:18.:36:21.

global trading Scotch. Since ending the spirits duty escalator in 2014,

:36:22.:36:25.

the tax and a bottle Scotch whisky is now 90p Lord Barnett would have

:36:26.:36:31.

otherwise -- lower than it would have otherwise been. There has been

:36:32.:36:36.

an amendment to diverse list in relation to spirits. This would not

:36:37.:36:42.

help exports because no duty is paid on exported spirits. It would help

:36:43.:36:47.

those selling instead in the UK market. The amendment would cost the

:36:48.:36:50.

exchequer and so increase the deficit by around ?100 million this

:36:51.:36:54.

year. The Government is therefore, for the reasons I have indicated,

:36:55.:36:59.

not least the Bottom Line scorecard cost, rejecting this amendment as it

:37:00.:37:06.

were not help exporters of whisky or other spirits and it is underfunded.

:37:07.:37:10.

Clause 65 keeps spirit duty rates flat in real terms so consumers will

:37:11.:37:15.

continue to benefit from the previous change to spirits duty

:37:16.:37:23.

rates. I should touch, while we're on spirits, and another great

:37:24.:37:29.

British success. The gin industry. I was informed with industry

:37:30.:37:36.

specialists that gin sales exceeded ?1 billion for the first time in the

:37:37.:37:42.

UK recently. I expect that many others will be partaking in a number

:37:43.:37:46.

of these products in the week ahead. I said a number of us! Perhaps in

:37:47.:37:52.

celebration, perhaps sustenance, perhaps in who knows what? It is

:37:53.:38:00.

good that we put on record these British success stories, as they

:38:01.:38:05.

say. I was also told that the number of gin brands has more than doubled

:38:06.:38:15.

since 2010. Yes, doubles all-round. A typical bottle of gin and means

:38:16.:38:18.

80p Lord Barnett would have been since we ended the spirit duty

:38:19.:38:22.

escalator. As for Scotch whisky, there is no UK duty payable on

:38:23.:38:28.

exported gym. Turning to bear, we also ended the beer duty escalator

:38:29.:38:35.

to help pubs. Pubs play an important role in promoting responsible

:38:36.:38:42.

drinking and are important in June July. Brewers make an important

:38:43.:38:46.

contribution to local Connelly 's and the increase in the number of

:38:47.:38:50.

small brewers in recent years has increased diversity and choice in

:38:51.:38:55.

the beer market by promoting a larger range of beers. That has

:38:56.:38:59.

benefited all brewers. This does not undo the previous year due to cuts

:39:00.:39:03.

and freezes. The Government cut the tax on a typical pint in previous

:39:04.:39:11.

years and froze duty rates last year. As a result of this, drinkers

:39:12.:39:16.

are paying 11p less in tax on a typical pint this year than they

:39:17.:39:21.

would otherwise have. On Wine jetty, the Government is also committed to

:39:22.:39:25.

supporting the UK wine industry. First joint industry and Defra round

:39:26.:39:35.

table resulted in industry targets, including targets to increase wine

:39:36.:39:40.

production tenfold by 2020. The wine sector will continue to benefit from

:39:41.:39:45.

previous changes to wine duty rates. Cider makers also play an important

:39:46.:39:49.

role in rural economies, using over half the apples grown in the UK. The

:39:50.:39:54.

duty on a typical pint of cider remains around half of that on a

:39:55.:40:00.

typical pint of beer. The tax remains law as it would have -- than

:40:01.:40:05.

it would have been because of the Government's decision to change

:40:06.:40:10.

cider duty rates since 2014. To conclude, we fully recognise the

:40:11.:40:14.

importance of the alcohol industry to the economy and local

:40:15.:40:18.

communities. I have talked and met with failure 's representatives from

:40:19.:40:22.

across the alcohol industry and will continue to engage with them. The

:40:23.:40:25.

cuts and freezes in duty rates, since ending the alcohol duty

:40:26.:40:32.

escalator is, will continue to save businesses around ?3 billion of duty

:40:33.:40:39.

between fiscal year 2013 and 2017. However, a loving alcohol duties to

:40:40.:40:43.

follow every year in real terms would be unsustainable in the long

:40:44.:40:46.

term. If alcohol duties had been frozen or cut at G2017, the

:40:47.:40:52.

Government would have had to raise taxes in other areas of the economy

:40:53.:40:58.

or increase the public deficit. This increases duties in line with

:40:59.:41:02.

inflation, has assumed in the fiscal forecasts. This is not a return to

:41:03.:41:09.

the real time increases this year. I move that this clause stays part of

:41:10.:41:13.

the bill. I will start talking about alcohol

:41:14.:41:18.

and whisky in particular and then I will move on to talk about oil and

:41:19.:41:24.

gas. Specifically around whisky, I appreciate the minister taking the

:41:25.:41:26.

time to talk about the country vision of the Scottish whisk the

:41:27.:41:32.

industry. -- whisky industry. It is indeed contribute to the economy,

:41:33.:41:37.

particularly the 40,000 jobs and 7000 in the real economy. Those are

:41:38.:41:41.

really important, particularly for Scottish rural communities. The

:41:42.:41:47.

changes that were made previously to spirit duty meant that there was

:41:48.:41:54.

confidence in the industry again. And we saw Bill change in the

:41:55.:41:56.

industry and last couple of years because of the positive moves the UK

:41:57.:42:00.

Government made in relation to spirit duty. A dozen new

:42:01.:42:13.

distilleries open and others in planning. But changes will mean that

:42:14.:42:18.

every ?4 ?5 spent on whisky go to the Government's Coffer. My

:42:19.:42:23.

colleague from the Isle of Bute, chairperson of the all-party group

:42:24.:42:28.

on Scotch whisky, spoke at length, well, only four minutes, on this,

:42:29.:42:37.

and a second reading of the bill. I appreciate the minister talking

:42:38.:42:39.

about the gin industry and the real success story it has been,

:42:40.:42:42.

particularly for these new distilleries. It takes a well to

:42:43.:42:50.

mature Scotch whisky but not gin. The issue that we have got is the

:42:51.:42:55.

context this is seen in. I understand the minister saying that

:42:56.:42:58.

this would not affect people selling these products abroad, but given

:42:59.:43:05.

that most of the producers selling whisky are also selling whisky in

:43:06.:43:08.

the domestic market, it does have an effect on those selling abroad,

:43:09.:43:14.

obviously. In the wider context of Brexit, in the context of the fact

:43:15.:43:18.

that the trade deals that we currently have won the longer exist

:43:19.:43:21.

and we will have to negotiate new trade deals, negotiate a trade deal

:43:22.:43:24.

with the EU and sell whisky to France, as a minister mentioned, we

:43:25.:43:29.

will need to have a trade deal. In order for that to happen. We will

:43:30.:43:33.

meet trade deals with the countries we currently trade with in the EU

:43:34.:43:38.

free trade agreements. A major concern for those of us who

:43:39.:43:44.

represent constituencies that have involvement in whisky is about the

:43:45.:43:50.

protected geographical indication. It is only using -- it is an EU

:43:51.:44:01.

thing. Because of this data is, people are not allowed to bottle

:44:02.:44:03.

whisky somewhere else and Colin Scotch whisky. We're set to lose

:44:04.:44:09.

that protection when the UK leaves the EU. It is really important that

:44:10.:44:15.

this Government does what it can to ensure that the Scotch whisky

:44:16.:44:20.

industry continues today with the trade -- to be able to trade and

:44:21.:44:25.

protect its brand. I do not see that coming through. If the UK Government

:44:26.:44:32.

were not have raised the duty on whisky and spirits particularly in

:44:33.:44:35.

this budget, it would have given much more confidence to the industry

:44:36.:44:38.

going forward and they would have been and are much better position to

:44:39.:44:41.

take decisions because they would have known that they have the

:44:42.:44:44.

confidence of the UK Government. Moving to oil and gas... We have two

:44:45.:44:49.

amendments on the papers in relation to oil and gas. New clause three and

:44:50.:45:04.

me cause four. -- clause four. The first one is around the investment

:45:05.:45:09.

allowances. Now, this Tory Government has come up with the we

:45:10.:45:11.

are one of the most competitive physical regimes for oil and gas.

:45:12.:45:17.

That is all well and good. We are one of the most mature fields in the

:45:18.:45:24.

world, also. We are having to do things in the North Sea to implement

:45:25.:45:29.

new technologies that we have never seen before. So there is a huge

:45:30.:45:32.

amount of innovation from our companies having to go on in order

:45:33.:45:36.

for them to be able to achieve the UK Government's recovery strategy.

:45:37.:45:44.

This first new clauses about investment allowances and the

:45:45.:45:49.

Corporation tax rates on companies producing oil and gas. The UK

:45:50.:45:53.

Government has put the tax up and down, but it has not at any stage

:45:54.:45:59.

sit down and looked at the entire taxation of the oil and gas industry

:46:00.:46:03.

and said, we are operating in a new scenario. It has kept taxes that we

:46:04.:46:08.

have had since oil and gas began to be taken from the North Sea. It is

:46:09.:46:12.

time for UK Government to look at the tax structure and regimes and

:46:13.:46:15.

see how it can incentivise companies to ensure that they are getting the

:46:16.:46:21.

best out of the North Sea and securing jobs in the north-east of

:46:22.:46:25.

Scotland and beyond for as long as possible.

:46:26.:46:31.

I'd like to talk about my new clause four in my name and that of the SNP.

:46:32.:46:40.

It's about the competitiveness of UK registered companies. I've mentioned

:46:41.:46:45.

deep commissioning but I've also mention new fields. This is a

:46:46.:46:48.

similar clause to the one we moved last year in the Finance Bill. This

:46:49.:46:53.

is something I would like to see the Government take action on. Whenever

:46:54.:46:57.

I meet with supply chain companies or individuals who are working at

:46:58.:47:02.

the coal face, if you like in oil and gas, they tell me this is a

:47:03.:47:07.

major issue. We are seeing decommissioning beginning in the

:47:08.:47:11.

North Sea. There are some fields at the end of their lives, some in the

:47:12.:47:16.

North Sea are at the end of usable life, whatever we do they are at the

:47:17.:47:20.

end of their life. They are being decommissioned. This is new for us.

:47:21.:47:26.

Companies are having to innovate. We don't want to see any of the jobs

:47:27.:47:30.

created in decommissioning going abroad if we can help it. We would

:47:31.:47:34.

like to see this government look at what it can do to the tax regime to

:47:35.:47:39.

ensure those jobs are kept in the UK as far as possible. In relation to

:47:40.:47:45.

new fields we are asking about that. I spoke during the second reading in

:47:46.:47:50.

relation to small pools, those which have less than 50 million barrels of

:47:51.:47:57.

oil. They are not in this tax system, in this fiscal situation,

:47:58.:48:00.

they are not particularly economically viable. The vast

:48:01.:48:06.

majority will not be exploited. Within the current tax regime. If we

:48:07.:48:11.

were seeing changes to the tax regime in order to see those small

:48:12.:48:16.

pools being exploited, if we were seeing further encouragement for

:48:17.:48:19.

companies and the ability to develop new technologies, for example, so

:48:20.:48:24.

that we can access those small fields, then we would see the UK

:48:25.:48:29.

Government's tax take increase as a result of fields being exploited. If

:48:30.:48:36.

we just leave them babies going to be a problem, particularly further

:48:37.:48:39.

down the line. That would be is going to be a problem. They rely on

:48:40.:48:44.

installations that are currently rare. If the big installation in the

:48:45.:48:49.

middle goes, is decommissioned, we lose access to smaller fields around

:48:50.:48:53.

about. This is something the UK Government needs to be on top of

:48:54.:48:59.

today. The last thing is something that made me pretty angry at the

:49:00.:49:05.

budget debate and budget speeches. The UK Government 's, the Chancellor

:49:06.:49:08.

stood up and announced that he was going to make it easier for

:49:09.:49:14.

companies to transfer late life assets. Installations near the end

:49:15.:49:18.

of usable life. He said we are going to have a commission to look into

:49:19.:49:23.

this. This is the same thing he announced last year at the budget,

:49:24.:49:27.

except last year he didn't say he would have a commission. If they'd

:49:28.:49:30.

done it last year they wouldn't need a commissioned this year. I know

:49:31.:49:43.

this is technical, but the Government needs to get in gear and

:49:44.:49:47.

make these changes so these assets can be transferred from the big

:49:48.:49:49.

player was got other things to focus on to a nuclear coming in. -- new

:49:50.:49:57.

player coming in. I appreciate the Government has a commission. I would

:49:58.:50:01.

rather they had done it last year. Even though they didn't we are on

:50:02.:50:05.

board in supporting that change as soon as. The question is that clause

:50:06.:50:12.

six stand part of the bill. As many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To

:50:13.:50:16.

the contrary, 'no'.. The nose have it. The question is that clause 62

:50:17.:50:30.

to 63 stand part of the bill. As many as are of the opinion say

:50:31.:50:36.

'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'. . I think the noes have it. The noes

:50:37.:50:42.

have it. The question is that clause 64 and 65 stand part of the bill. As

:50:43.:50:45.

many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'. . The

:50:46.:50:56.

ayes have it. The question is that clause 66 to 67 stand part of the

:50:57.:51:05.

bill. As many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'. .

:51:06.:51:08.

I think the noes have it. The question is that clause is 68 to 69

:51:09.:51:12.

stand part of the bill, As many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To the

:51:13.:51:19.

contrary, 'no'. , the ayes habit. The question is that clause 70 stand

:51:20.:51:25.

part of the bill. As many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To the

:51:26.:51:31.

contrary, 'no'.. I think the noes habit. Have it. We now come to a

:51:32.:51:40.

vote on the soft drink industry levy. A question that forms a

:51:41.:51:48.

clauses amendments and schedules listed on the selection paper.

:51:49.:51:57.

Minister? Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. Clauses 71 to 107 of the

:51:58.:52:02.

Finance Bill contain provisions for a new tax caused the soft drink

:52:03.:52:07.

industry levy to be introduced from April 20 18. This is a key pillar in

:52:08.:52:11.

the Government's childhood obesity plan and welcomed by public health

:52:12.:52:18.

campaigners. Tackling obesity is an international challenge of the UK

:52:19.:52:21.

has one of the highest of these debates in the developed world.

:52:22.:52:25.

Childhood obesity is a concern. Nearly one third of children aged

:52:26.:52:28.

two to 15 are overweight or obese and we know many of these children

:52:29.:52:33.

go on to become obese adults. Obesity drives disease, as we are

:52:34.:52:36.

reminded as we can do the underground station at the moment in

:52:37.:52:41.

Westminster by the Cancer Research UK posters. It increases the risk of

:52:42.:52:51.

heart disease, type two diabetes, stroke and cancer. The NHS spends

:52:52.:52:54.

over ?6 billion a year across the UK dealing with obesity related costs.

:52:55.:52:59.

It is estimated between 27 and ?46 billion every year. This cannot go

:53:00.:53:04.

on. Sugary drink so one of the biggest contributors to childhood

:53:05.:53:07.

obesity and a source of empty cavities. Technical calories. They

:53:08.:53:16.

typically contain nine teaspoons of sugar. Some have as many as 13

:53:17.:53:21.

teaspoons. This can be more than double the daily recommended intake

:53:22.:53:25.

in one cannot drink. The Government recognises this as a problem and so

:53:26.:53:33.

do many others. 60 officers are calling on a tax on sugary drink and

:53:34.:53:36.

a petition has been signed in favour. This issue has received a

:53:37.:53:41.

high level of cross-party support. Some soft drinks reducers recognised

:53:42.:53:45.

sugar levels in their drinks were a problem to and start to reduce sugar

:53:46.:53:50.

content moving consumers towards diet and sugar free variance and

:53:51.:53:54.

reducing portion sizes for high sugar beverages. But reducing the

:53:55.:53:58.

added sugar is now a public health priority. This new levy is needed to

:53:59.:54:03.

speed up the process. It is specifically designed to encourage

:54:04.:54:07.

the industry to move faster. We gave the industry to use to make progress

:54:08.:54:11.

on this, and we can see it's already working. Since the Government

:54:12.:54:14.

announced the levy last March we've seen a number of major producer

:54:15.:54:19.

accelerates their work to read sugar out of their soft inside escape the

:54:20.:54:24.

charge. This includes Tesco who have already read formerly did the whole

:54:25.:54:29.

brand of in brand soft drinks to not play the levy. Similar moves from

:54:30.:54:36.

Lucozade, Ribena and Irn-Bru. The fact that 40% of all drinks have now

:54:37.:54:42.

been reformatted by the introduction of the levy and we see international

:54:43.:54:48.

action. Other countries like Ireland, Spain, Portugal, as Sony

:54:49.:54:51.

and South Africa have brought forward similar proposals. Because

:54:52.:54:56.

of this reformulation we now expect the levy to raise around ?385

:54:57.:55:03.

million per year which is less than the ?520 million originally

:55:04.:55:06.

forecast. We are clear this is its excess. The Government will still

:55:07.:55:10.

find the department bread and budget with the ?1 billion the levy was

:55:11.:55:14.

originally expected to raise including money to double the

:55:15.:55:22.

primary school sports premium, deliver funding for school breakfast

:55:23.:55:24.

clubs and ?415 million to be invested in it have the pupils

:55:25.:55:27.

capital programme. Devolved administrations will receive ballot

:55:28.:55:31.

funding in the usual way. The Secretary of State for Education

:55:32.:55:34.

recently announced how some of the money would be spent, particularly

:55:35.:55:40.

around be healthy pupils capital programme. The levy has shown that

:55:41.:55:43.

the Government means business when it comes to reducing hidden sugar in

:55:44.:55:48.

everyday foods. This willingness to take bold action depends on other

:55:49.:55:52.

major part of our plan. Public Health England's sugar reduction

:55:53.:55:57.

programme. This is a ground-breaking programme to seek 20% cuts in sugar

:55:58.:56:02.

by 2020 across the top nine food categories that contribute the most

:56:03.:56:06.

two children's sugar intake. It's been acknowledged, not least by

:56:07.:56:11.

industry that this is challenging, but one that industries are

:56:12.:56:15.

committed to achieving and the sugar reduction programme will cover some

:56:16.:56:18.

of the drinks products which are not part of the levy such as milk -based

:56:19.:56:23.

drinks. The programme is already bearing fruit. We've seen

:56:24.:56:26.

announcements and commitments with regards to reducing levels of sugar

:56:27.:56:30.

in some of these products. Now, I know some would like to see the levy

:56:31.:56:35.

go further, in particular I have before me to amendments proposed by

:56:36.:56:39.

the member for Aberdeen North which would remove the exclusion for high

:56:40.:56:48.

milk content drinks containing at least 75% milk. We oppose those

:56:49.:56:51.

amendments, milk and milk products are a source of protein, calcium,

:56:52.:56:53.

tasking, phosphorus and iodine as well as B-2 and B12. One in five

:56:54.:56:58.

teenage girls do not get enough calcium, one in ten teenage boys. It

:56:59.:57:04.

is essential vacancy in the required amount of nutrients which aid bone

:57:05.:57:08.

formation and promote healthy growth as part of a balanced diet. As

:57:09.:57:13.

experts agree that naturally occurring sugars are not a concern

:57:14.:57:18.

from an obesity perspective, and not included within the definition of

:57:19.:57:22.

free sugars. Of course, we want is milk -based drinks to contain less

:57:23.:57:27.

added sugar and they will, therefore, be part of the sugar

:57:28.:57:31.

reduction programme. Producers will be charged unsupported to redo

:57:32.:57:37.

studied sugar content by 20% by 2020. Public Health England have

:57:38.:57:41.

committed to publishing a detailed assessment of the progress against

:57:42.:57:46.

the 20% target in March 2020, and I committed before the house that we

:57:47.:57:50.

will also revealed the exclusion milk -based drinks in 2020 based on

:57:51.:57:55.

the evidence from Public Health England's assessment of progress

:57:56.:57:59.

against the sugar reduction targets. Therefore I urge members to reject

:58:00.:58:04.

the post amendments in light of that assurance, and allow us to review

:58:05.:58:08.

the evidence in 2020, two years after the levy has begun and decide

:58:09.:58:12.

whether milk is drink should be brought within scope. Mr Chairman,

:58:13.:58:18.

obesity is a problem that has been decades in the making. We aren't

:58:19.:58:22.

going to solve it overnight. These soft drinks levy is not going to be

:58:23.:58:26.

a silver bullet, but it is an important part of the solution. This

:58:27.:58:32.

government's plan, with the levy as its flagship policy is the start of

:58:33.:58:36.

a journey marking a major step towards dealing with our national

:58:37.:58:39.

obesity crisis. I therefore move that these clauses stand part of the

:58:40.:58:48.

bill. Kirsty Blackman. Bank you, very much. On the soft drinks

:58:49.:58:51.

industry never see the Minister is correct. There has been a huge

:58:52.:58:56.

amount of cross-party 's board for the general thrust of this. The move

:58:57.:59:01.

towards tackling obesity, particularly childhood obesity. As I

:59:02.:59:08.

said we are largely supportive of the levy, however, our concern is

:59:09.:59:14.

that it doesn't go far enough. Our concern is that there are loopholes

:59:15.:59:17.

that the Government could have chosen to close when it was writing

:59:18.:59:23.

this bill. The single biggest cause of rentable cancer is obesity. More

:59:24.:59:29.

than 18,100 cancers are you are associated with excess weight.

:59:30.:59:33.

Cancer research says that sugary drinks are the number one source of

:59:34.:59:38.

sugar for 11 to 18-year-olds. For a start but is terrifying. Thinking

:59:39.:59:43.

about this statistic, I appreciate the Government has chosen to take

:59:44.:59:48.

action on this. The Government's response about milk -based drinks,

:59:49.:59:54.

concerns me. And the actual fact about milk -based drinks are

:59:55.:59:58.

particularly excluded concerns me. Will she give way? Thank you for

:59:59.:00:05.

giving way. Does she agree with me that the problem with admitting milk

:00:06.:00:09.

-based drinks from the provisions of this bill is that parents may

:00:10.:00:13.

mistakenly think that those drinks are healthier than soft drinks which

:00:14.:00:16.

have the extra tax. This is not the case. I think that's

:00:17.:00:22.

absolutely right. Given what the Minister has said about milk -based

:00:23.:00:26.

drinks containing protein, calcium and other nutrients, that is true,

:00:27.:00:32.

but so does milk! Children could just drink milk without the added

:00:33.:00:36.

sugar. This is one of those areas where there is added sugar bad

:00:37.:00:42.

people don't realise. People do not realise quite how much added sugar

:00:43.:00:48.

is in there. It's the same as past the sources for example. Parents do

:00:49.:00:51.

not realise when they see a milkshake on the shelf but about

:00:52.:00:56.

could have as much sugar as they can of fizzy juice. The download gentle

:00:57.:01:03.

practice suggested that milk -based drink should be included. -- general

:01:04.:01:11.

dental practice. The health based to committees as milk -based drink

:01:12.:01:15.

should be included. Clause four amendments would remove the

:01:16.:01:16.

exemption for milk -based drinks. I appreciate the Government saying

:01:17.:01:30.

they will review this in 2020 and that they have decided to make that

:01:31.:01:35.

change. Ota promise that coming in in the future. -- or promising that.

:01:36.:01:41.

I appreciate that they have done that.

:01:42.:01:45.

The question is that clause 71 stand part of the bill. As many as of that

:01:46.:01:51.

opinion say aye. On the contrary, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have

:01:52.:01:59.

it. As many of that opinion say aye. To

:02:00.:02:04.

the contrary, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. We now come to the

:02:05.:02:09.

group on fulfilment businesses, digital reporting, and including

:02:10.:02:16.

provisions. We begin with the question that clause 108 stand part

:02:17.:02:19.

of the bill, with which it would be convenient to consider the clauses,

:02:20.:02:23.

amendments and schedules on the selection paper. Kirsty Blackman.

:02:24.:02:38.

I beg to move. I just wanted to say that I appreciate the Government

:02:39.:02:44.

withdrawing the provisions in this. I understand the Government

:02:45.:02:50.

commitment, but I think the changes are reasonable. Thank you. With your

:02:51.:02:57.

indulgence, I thought this would be an appropriate moment to pay tribute

:02:58.:03:02.

to the member for Chichester, the outgoing member for Chichester, and

:03:03.:03:06.

chairperson of the Treasury Select Committee. The Treasury Select

:03:07.:03:10.

Committee has paid a lot of attention to making tax digital.

:03:11.:03:14.

There can be no more fitting tribute to the member for Chichester's

:03:15.:03:17.

leaving this House than the Government withdrawing making tax

:03:18.:03:23.

digital. The honourable member's tribute, selling used to myself, is

:03:24.:03:27.

most appropriate and a do thank him for that. -- is certainly news to

:03:28.:03:35.

myself. The Government does not support the first clause 108.

:03:36.:03:38.

Apologies for not making that clear before. With regard to the comment

:03:39.:03:43.

about making tax digital, I refer colleagues to the statement I made

:03:44.:03:47.

at the beginning of the first group. The question is that clause 108

:03:48.:03:53.

stand part of the bill. As many as that opinion say aye. On the

:03:54.:03:57.

contrary, no. I think the noes have it, the noes have it. The question

:03:58.:04:04.

is that clauses 109 - 126 stand part of the bill. As many of that opinion

:04:05.:04:11.

say aye. To the contrary, no. The noes have it, the noes have it. The

:04:12.:04:17.

question is that clause 127 stands part of the bill. As many of that

:04:18.:04:23.

opinion say aye. On the contrary, no. The ayes have it, the ayes have

:04:24.:04:30.

it. We now come to the motion to transfer clause 127, which we

:04:31.:04:34.

debated in a previous group. The question is that clause 127 be

:04:35.:04:39.

transferred to the end of line 34 on page 77. As many as that opinion say

:04:40.:04:48.

aye. To the contrary, no. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. The

:04:49.:04:53.

question is that clauses 128-1 and June stand part of the bill. As many

:04:54.:04:59.

as are all that opinion say aye. To the contrary, no. I think the noes

:05:00.:05:04.

have it, the noes have it. I called the Minister to move Government

:05:05.:05:10.

amendments 5-9 to clause 134 formerly. Government amendments 5-9

:05:11.:05:18.

to clause one of June 30 four as on the amendment paper. The question is

:05:19.:05:22.

that the amendments be made. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it.

:05:23.:05:29.

The question is that clause 134, as amended, stays part of the bill. The

:05:30.:05:36.

ayes have it, the ayes have it. The question is that clause one to 35

:05:37.:05:45.

stand part of the bill. -- 135. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. I

:05:46.:05:48.

call the Minister to move Government amendment ten to schedule one

:05:49.:05:55.

formally. Government amendment ten proposed to schedule one as on the

:05:56.:05:58.

Amendment paper. The question is the Amendment be made. I think the ayes

:05:59.:06:06.

have it, the ayes have it. The question is that schedule one, as

:06:07.:06:09.

amended, the first kettle to the bill. As many as are backed opinion,

:06:10.:06:15.

say aye. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. I called to move Government

:06:16.:06:21.

amendments 11 and 12 to schedule to formally. Proposed to schedule two.

:06:22.:06:29.

The question is that the Amendment be made. The ayes have it, the ayes

:06:30.:06:35.

have it. The question is scheduled to as amended be the second schedule

:06:36.:06:44.

of the bill. I think the ayes have it. I am joking. -- choking. That

:06:45.:06:55.

would have pleased some people! I call the Minister to move Government

:06:56.:07:01.

amendments 13-29 to schedule three formally. Government amendments

:07:02.:07:07.

13-29 proposed to schedule three as on the Amendment paper. The question

:07:08.:07:14.

is the amendments be made. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it.

:07:15.:07:18.

The question is that schedule three, as amended, be the bill. As many as

:07:19.:07:25.

are that opinion say aye. To the contrary, no. The eyes it, the ayes

:07:26.:07:30.

have it. I call the Minister to move Government amendments 30-36 for

:07:31.:07:37.

more. Government amendment is 30-56 proposed to schedule for as on the

:07:38.:07:43.

Amendment paper. -- schedule for Mac. The ayes have it, the ayes have

:07:44.:07:49.

it. The question is that schedule four, as amended, either Phil

:07:50.:07:57.

schedule to the bill. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. The

:07:58.:08:00.

question is that schedule is five and six be the fifth and six

:08:01.:08:04.

schedule to the bill as well. As many as are of that opinion, say

:08:05.:08:09.

aye. To the contrary, no. The noes have it, the noes have it. The

:08:10.:08:14.

question is that schedule 7 be the fifth schedule... That is right. The

:08:15.:08:23.

question is that schedule 7 be the fifth schedule to the bill. As many

:08:24.:08:29.

that are of that opinion say aye. To the contrary, no. The ayes have it,

:08:30.:08:34.

the ayes have it. The question is that schedules 8-15 be the sixth at

:08:35.:08:45.

213 schedules of the bill. -- up to 13. The noes have it. I called to

:08:46.:08:54.

have schedule 57 to 16 for my. -- formally. The question is that the

:08:55.:09:01.

Amendment is made. As many that are of the opinion say aye. The ayes

:09:02.:09:04.

have it, the ayes have it. The question is that schedules 17

:09:05.:09:20.

and 18 to be the seventh and eighth schedules to the bill. As many that

:09:21.:09:24.

are of that opinion say aye, nor contrary, no. The noes have it, the

:09:25.:09:29.

noes have it. The question is 19-23 be the seventh to 11th schedules to

:09:30.:09:37.

the bill. As many at the Mac of that opinion, say aye. The ayes have it,

:09:38.:09:41.

the ayes have it. The question is that schedule 17-24 the their 12th

:09:42.:09:52.

to 17th schedules to the bill. I think the noes have it, the noes

:09:53.:09:57.

have it. The question is that they do report the bill as amended to the

:09:58.:10:02.

House. As many that are of that opinion say aye, to the contrary,

:10:03.:10:06.

no. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. Order, order.

:10:07.:10:28.

Order. Anne Begg to report the committee has gone through the bill

:10:29.:10:35.

and directing me to report the same, with amendments. Under the order of

:10:36.:10:41.

the House of yesterday, we shall now moved to the remaining stages. No

:10:42.:10:46.

amendments on consideration. I shall now suspend the House for no more

:10:47.:10:51.

than five minutes in order to make a decision about certification. The

:10:52.:10:56.

bells on the run two minutes before the House resumes. Following my

:10:57.:11:00.

certification, the Government will table the appropriate consent

:11:01.:11:04.

motion, copies of which will be made available in the vote office and

:11:05.:11:08.

will be distributed by door keepers. Order.

:11:09.:17:21.

Order! Order! For the purposes of standing order number 80 two I

:17:22.:17:42.

certified clause two is relating exclusively to England, Wales and

:17:43.:17:48.

Northern Ireland. And within devolved legislative competence.

:17:49.:17:51.

Order number 82 bel four, the following amendment as relating

:17:52.:17:55.

exclusively to England, Wales and Northern Ireland. That is the

:17:56.:18:01.

omission of clause 60 of the bill, in committee of the whole house.

:18:02.:18:06.

Copies of certificates are available in the vote office and on

:18:07.:18:12.

Parliamentary website. And a standing order number 83 M and 83 S,

:18:13.:18:19.

the consent motion is therefore required for the bill to proceed.

:18:20.:18:24.

Copies of the motion are available on the roads office and have been

:18:25.:18:28.

made available to members in the chamber. Does the Minister intend to

:18:29.:18:35.

move the motion? And a standing order number 83 M, the house must

:18:36.:18:40.

forthwith resolve itself into the legislative grand committee England,

:18:41.:18:44.

Wales and Northern Ireland. Order! Order! Order! They will now be a

:18:45.:19:14.

debate on the consent motion for England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

:19:15.:19:18.

I remind honourable member is that all members may speak in the debate

:19:19.:19:22.

but if there are divisions only members representing constituencies

:19:23.:19:26.

in England, Wales and Northern Ireland may vote on a consent

:19:27.:19:31.

motion. I call a minister to move the consent motion for England,

:19:32.:19:36.

Wales and Northern Ireland. The question is the consent motion

:19:37.:19:40.

relating to England, Wales and Northern Ireland as on the notice

:19:41.:19:51.

paper. As many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'. .

:19:52.:19:54.

The ayes have it. I beg to report that the legislative

:19:55.:20:27.

grand committee, England, Wales and Northern Ireland has consented to

:20:28.:20:31.

the certified clause and certified amendment of the Finance number two

:20:32.:20:39.

bill. Third reading? The question is that the bill be now read the third

:20:40.:20:46.

time, Minister. Thank you, very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to

:20:47.:20:51.

move that the bill now be read a third time. Before I say a few words

:20:52.:20:57.

about in summary about the bill, and the few brief comments, could I just

:20:58.:21:02.

beg your indulgence to make a couple of remarks about colleagues. Earlier

:21:03.:21:07.

in the debate the right honourable member for Oxford East was present

:21:08.:21:13.

and made a valedictory speech. I did make reference to that in the

:21:14.:21:18.

remarks I made subsequent to that but I wasn't in a position to put on

:21:19.:21:25.

the record his record of service to the country, not just as a

:21:26.:21:31.

parliamentarian since 1987, but as a Minister of State for education and

:21:32.:21:35.

employment between 97 and 99 at the Treasury as Chief Secretary between

:21:36.:21:40.

99 and 2002, and that Secretary of State for Work and Pensions between

:21:41.:21:45.

2002 and 2004. Whilst he's not in his place I would ask that his front

:21:46.:21:50.

bench conveyed these sentiments to him, and perhaps draw his attention

:21:51.:21:55.

to the fact that I placed on record, on behalf of the Government and all

:21:56.:22:00.

colleagues are thanks for his service as a government minister

:22:01.:22:05.

over that period of time. With the house's indulgence, may I make a

:22:06.:22:11.

second tribute, having very recently been informed that the right

:22:12.:22:16.

honourable member, the member for Chichester is not seeking

:22:17.:22:21.

reselection at this election. I would ask, want to comment a liberal

:22:22.:22:24.

on him. He's been EMP he's been the MP for Chichester

:22:25.:22:37.

since 1987. Members may be her where he was a senior economist before

:22:38.:22:43.

entering Parliament. He is, of course, a very senior

:22:44.:22:46.

parliamentarian, it is no surprise that when we moved to electing our

:22:47.:22:52.

select committee chairs that he was elected overwhelmingly with a boat

:22:53.:22:57.

across parties, and, of course, in recent times he has served in one of

:22:58.:23:01.

the most senior positions that Parliament has, if not the most

:23:02.:23:07.

senior. As chairman of the liaison committee. In all of those roles he

:23:08.:23:14.

has been enormously distinguished and I speak for everyone in seeing

:23:15.:23:19.

very, very well liked. I have known him over the years I've been in

:23:20.:23:23.

Parliament, but as a Treasury minister I have come to know him

:23:24.:23:28.

better in recent months, and indeed, responded to his letters on many

:23:29.:23:33.

occasions and discussed them in the sidelines, as it were on a number of

:23:34.:23:38.

occasions. Throughout all those dealings, I have seen all that

:23:39.:23:42.

experience and all those qualities brought to bear. I would just like

:23:43.:23:46.

to say that for me, as a minister, he has been kind and wise and I will

:23:47.:23:52.

miss him enormously. Will belong to the third reading of the debate.

:23:53.:23:57.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the economy is fundamentally strong and this bill

:23:58.:24:01.

Caesars take another step forward in building a stronger economy and

:24:02.:24:04.

healthier society. As we have discussed this afternoon the bill is

:24:05.:24:08.

proceeding on the basis of consensus. In number of key policy

:24:09.:24:12.

changes to the tax system such as measures to tackle tax

:24:13.:24:25.

avoidance are being brought forward in a Finance bill at the first

:24:26.:24:28.

opportunity after the election. Even in short and from the bill takes

:24:29.:24:31.

action in three areas that have been consistent priorities. Firstly, the

:24:32.:24:33.

measures take further action is to reduce the deficit. This bill takes

:24:34.:24:42.

the next steps to achieve a fairer, more sustainable tax system. It

:24:43.:24:46.

makes clear the taxes to much keep pace with the different ways people

:24:47.:24:50.

work to ensure fair treatment between individuals. It also

:24:51.:24:54.

demonstrates our continued commitment to tackling tax avoidance

:24:55.:24:58.

and evasion to level the playing field for the honest majority of

:24:59.:25:01.

businesses and individuals that pay what they owe. Finally, in a cause

:25:02.:25:08.

particularly close to my heart is a former health minister, this Bill

:25:09.:25:12.

marks an important step in Chaplin childhood obesity by legislating for

:25:13.:25:16.

the soft drinks industry levy. Something I noted we have achieved a

:25:17.:25:21.

great deal of cross-party consensus. This will deliver a brighter and

:25:22.:25:25.

healthier future for our children. I'm delighted we were able to bring

:25:26.:25:31.

it to the statute book. In conclusion, the Finance Bill

:25:32.:25:34.

supports our commitment to a fair and sustainable tax system which

:25:35.:25:38.

offers support to public services and gets the country back to living

:25:39.:25:43.

within its means. In that regard it sits within this government's

:25:44.:25:46.

long-term commitment to improving the strength of our economy and I

:25:47.:25:52.

commend it to the house. The question is that the Bill be now

:25:53.:25:57.

read a third time. Just before I call the opposition spokesman, may I

:25:58.:26:02.

echo, on behalf of the whole house, the kind words that the minister has

:26:03.:26:07.

said, particularly about to be honourable member is for Oxford East

:26:08.:26:12.

and Chichester. But also for all other honourable member is present

:26:13.:26:18.

this afternoon and have taken part in this Bill and many similar bills

:26:19.:26:24.

assiduously, and brilliantly, on behalf of their constituents and who

:26:25.:26:29.

won't be here during the next Parliament. The whole house wishes

:26:30.:26:36.

them all very well indeed. Petered out. Thank you, Madam Deputy

:26:37.:26:41.

Speaker. Can I concur with the comments you've made and the Commons

:26:42.:26:46.

the Minister has made in relation to the right honourable member for

:26:47.:26:50.

Oxford East and the member for Chichester. May I comment on my

:26:51.:26:55.

honourable friend the member for Wolverhampton South West who will

:26:56.:26:57.

also be leaving the chair. The house. It seems to me that some

:26:58.:27:05.

people have got time off for good behaviour, it seems to me. As I, can

:27:06.:27:12.

I just make a point in relation to the honourable member for Ealing

:27:13.:27:16.

North and the second Scout group he was very concerned in relation to

:27:17.:27:23.

the insurers premium tax, well, I don't think he won on that

:27:24.:27:29.

particular one. However, he has won on the sugar tax, where we will save

:27:30.:27:34.

the teeth of the Scout group on that particular action. Good news for

:27:35.:27:43.

teeth, bad news for dentists, I suspect. But anyway. I alluded

:27:44.:27:48.

earlier on to the fight that the bill was the longest finance bill

:27:49.:27:52.

that has been presented to the housing 135 clauses. 792 pages,

:27:53.:28:01.

clauses on pensions advice, overseas pensions, personal portfolios,

:28:02.:28:04.

shareholding schemes, insurance premium tax, passenger duty, duties

:28:05.:28:10.

in general, fraudulent evasion, digital reporting, data gathering

:28:11.:28:15.

and umpteen schedules. And almost each of those clauses and schedules,

:28:16.:28:22.

and many others, have had some degree of scrutiny, but not

:28:23.:28:26.

necessarily be amount of scrutiny we would like. Given the General

:28:27.:28:30.

Election has rather unhelpfully intervened in our deliberations.

:28:31.:28:38.

But, as they say, that's democracy, Madam Deputy Speaker. Scrutineers

:28:39.:28:42.

the fundamental role of Parliament. So when we can't get enough time for

:28:43.:28:47.

that role, for that scrutiny role, we need to ensure measures are not

:28:48.:28:52.

simply pushed through willy-nilly. I don't think they have been in that

:28:53.:28:57.

regard. We have to have a balance between tax-raising and the

:28:58.:29:02.

dampening effect that can have on business and society. That can be a

:29:03.:29:05.

difficult balance. That balance has been drawn pretty well today. I've

:29:06.:29:10.

referred previously to the issue about productivity and the economy.

:29:11.:29:14.

And the need to raise our game in relation to that. I productivity is

:29:15.:29:21.

a driver of economic growth. Whatever position, I hope that to

:29:22.:29:25.

some degree this Bill will help push along about productivity growth. If

:29:26.:29:30.

I may turn to be soft drinks levy the Minister has referred to. The

:29:31.:29:37.

primary school sports premium over 160 million going up to 320 million

:29:38.:29:44.

annually money for breakfast clubs and expansion and be fact that 57%

:29:45.:29:51.

of the public support the levy and obesity Alliance found that the levy

:29:52.:29:55.

could save up to 144,000 adults and children from obesity and prevent

:29:56.:30:02.

19,000 cases of type two diabetes and avoid, as I alluded to before,

:30:03.:30:11.

270,000 decayed teeth. I welcome the Minister's commitment to review in a

:30:12.:30:14.

couple of years in relation to advice from Public Health England.

:30:15.:30:19.

Of course, some measures aren't in, some will come back and we will

:30:20.:30:24.

bring measures back. We hope those measures, one way or another, will

:30:25.:30:28.

be scrutinised. And on that point, I conclude. Kirsty Blackman. Thank

:30:29.:30:41.

you, very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. The debate has been very

:30:42.:30:46.

like this today. It has tended to be fairly quiet with not many of us

:30:47.:30:51.

speaking. Can I echo the comments made about the right honourable

:30:52.:30:55.

member is for Chichester and Oxford East and the honourable member for

:30:56.:30:59.

Wolverhampton South East who I had the pleasure of serving on the

:31:00.:31:03.

finance committee with last year and was constantly impressed by his

:31:04.:31:07.

incredible level of knowledge about the things we were discussing. I'll

:31:08.:31:11.

be sorry to see him go from this place. I got a few things to raise

:31:12.:31:21.

in Malaysia to the Finance Bill. -- in relation to the Finance Bill.

:31:22.:31:25.

We've had it curtail debate on the Finance Bill, finance member two

:31:26.:31:29.

bill this year. We'll be seeing a new one in the next session. But

:31:30.:31:34.

this, honestly, Madam Deputy Speaker is one of the most bizarre things

:31:35.:31:39.

I've had the chance to be a part of since I was elected, this Finance

:31:40.:31:44.

Bill is the fact that last week, on Tuesday, we had the second reading.

:31:45.:31:49.

And on Tuesday morning everything was going to proceed as normal. We

:31:50.:31:57.

were going to have two days of committee with the whole house and

:31:58.:31:59.

something like six out of Public Bill Committee and two days for the

:32:00.:32:01.

report stage and third reading. It is really totally bizarre. The

:32:02.:32:19.

amendments we had last night and intention from the Government, it

:32:20.:32:23.

was appreciated that the Government... That I received the

:32:24.:32:26.

notification to withdraw from some things last night. I appreciate that

:32:27.:32:29.

but it is very little notice to go through properly all of the matters

:32:30.:32:34.

that are in this and to work out what the Government had to proceed

:32:35.:32:40.

with. This has been very difficult to operate under the circumstances

:32:41.:32:45.

and very difficult to provide the appropriate scrutiny in the lack of

:32:46.:32:51.

time we have had. The SNP have done our best on this. We have spoken in

:32:52.:32:58.

every section today. We are the only party other than the Government to

:32:59.:33:03.

table amendments on this bill. I would like to briefly mention,

:33:04.:33:06.

before I talk about the provisions in this bill, the way that this

:33:07.:33:10.

Government tackles budgetary scrutiny and the standing orders in

:33:11.:33:15.

the way that they are written and a that this House looks at financial

:33:16.:33:24.

matters. In the past, the budget process, I have mentioned is

:33:25.:33:27.

marginally better but it is still not great. I have mentioned a number

:33:28.:33:32.

of times the better budgets report and I absolutely backed the call

:33:33.:33:35.

made by organisations that made the better budget report to have the

:33:36.:33:38.

public Bill Committee of the Finance Committee having a quick hearings.

:33:39.:33:47.

It is important this House does that and whatever Government comes in

:33:48.:33:54.

after the election should allow dealings in the Public Bill

:33:55.:33:57.

Committee stage. It would make a difference to the level of scrutiny

:33:58.:34:05.

we can provide. However, there are different individuals in the

:34:06.:34:14.

Treasury Committee as to the Finance Committee. The Minister knows that

:34:15.:34:17.

once I start ringing something up, I am not good at letting it go. I

:34:18.:34:28.

realise that these were put in place by this Government. In terms of the

:34:29.:34:33.

specific provisions by this bill, I welcome, as I said earlier today,

:34:34.:34:35.

some of the things the Government has taken it. I welcome the decision

:34:36.:34:45.

making tax digital. It would be better to bring it back following

:34:46.:34:47.

the general election and I appreciate that that decision was

:34:48.:34:51.

taken. I also particularly welcome the withdrawing of the dividend

:34:52.:34:57.

threshold. I think that was something that we did not feel like

:34:58.:35:00.

we had adequate time to screw them eyes and they appreciate the

:35:01.:35:02.

Government taking that measure to the bill. Just a few things that

:35:03.:35:11.

are, I suppose, not on the bill or that have got to the third reading

:35:12.:35:15.

stage. Around tax evasion, a new cause we tabled in religion to

:35:16.:35:27.

tax evasion. And to bring back a proper full report on all other ways

:35:28.:35:32.

in which international comparisons have been successful in tackling

:35:33.:35:36.

tax. I get that there might be peace deal bits of work being done on the

:35:37.:35:39.

Tassel report on this would be incredibly helpful for the

:35:40.:35:43.

Government going forward to nature the right decisions are being taken

:35:44.:35:46.

about tackling tax evasion. We are also clear that there is still not

:35:47.:35:51.

enough detection for whistle-blowers and that we are indebted to those

:35:52.:35:54.

individuals that do come forward and we would like to encourage them to

:35:55.:35:57.

do so. Anything the Government can do around that would be welcome. On

:35:58.:36:02.

self-employment, last year byes-mac Finance Bill made some changes to

:36:03.:36:07.

those employed through intermediaries and this Finance Bill

:36:08.:36:10.

has done the same. And the changes that the transfer proposed in

:36:11.:36:13.

relation to national insurance and road back on, all of those are

:36:14.:36:18.

piecemeal changes to self-employment. If the comment is

:36:19.:36:24.

going to did anything with self-employment, any is to do it

:36:25.:36:26.

properly and look at everything that affects the taxation of self

:36:27.:36:31.

employed individuals and it needs to look at the tax credits of those

:36:32.:36:35.

individuals. Also in things like childcare vouchers. All those things

:36:36.:36:41.

need to be taken in the round, in addition to pension entitlement,

:36:42.:36:44.

holiday entitlement, maternity leave entitlement and in a proper tax

:36:45.:36:52.

system that should appropriately tax individuals are self-employed, as is

:36:53.:36:54.

providing them with appropriate benefits and encourage them to start

:36:55.:36:59.

businesses and to lead employment and begin their own business or

:37:00.:37:03.

leave unemployment and begin their own business. The more that we can

:37:04.:37:07.

do on that and a less shifting the Pope posts, the better the situation

:37:08.:37:12.

we will be in. Touching on oil and gas... The UK Government could do

:37:13.:37:18.

more around oil and gas. UK Government could do more than giving

:37:19.:37:21.

confidence to oil and gas industry. I would very much like it if the UK

:37:22.:37:27.

Government were to look at small pools and changes they could make to

:37:28.:37:29.

attack tax region around small pools. UK Government committed to

:37:30.:37:35.

maximising the economic strategy put in place by Sir Ian Wood. They have

:37:36.:37:40.

said that I'm back that strategy. However, they are not following this

:37:41.:37:45.

up with enough measures. Oil and gas has not been given the level of

:37:46.:37:48.

priority by this Government that it should be given. It is incredibly

:37:49.:37:52.

important to the economy of the UK as a whole as well as the economy of

:37:53.:38:00.

Scotland. There has been a massive reduction in a number of jobs in

:38:01.:38:05.

recent years. I'm not asking for this Government to significantly

:38:06.:38:07.

reduce the rate of tax for oil and gas. What I'm this Government to do

:38:08.:38:12.

is looking at incentivising investment and looking at those more

:38:13.:38:18.

difficult to reach pools. I am not asking for massive giveaways. It

:38:19.:38:26.

could be a net benefit to Government, not costing anything. I

:38:27.:38:31.

do not ask for an amazing, massive reduction in headline rates of tax.

:38:32.:38:34.

I asked for the Government to listen to companies that are coming

:38:35.:38:37.

forward, asking for small and reasonable changes, some of which

:38:38.:38:40.

will increase the UK Government's tax take, rather than decrease it.

:38:41.:38:46.

Again, I ask the Government to look particularly at the amendment is

:38:47.:38:49.

have brought forward. Particularly at the suggestions we are making. I

:38:50.:38:54.

appreciate the changes they are hoping to make in late light assets.

:38:55.:39:03.

-- late light them at life assets. Those are long overdue. As soon as

:39:04.:39:08.

that can be lamented, the better. -- implemented. We are looking at,

:39:09.:39:15.

whatever Government comes in, having a new budget and a new finance bill.

:39:16.:39:19.

We have not seen, from this Government, any recognition. We are

:39:20.:39:25.

nearly one year on from the Brexit referendum. It is nearly one year on

:39:26.:39:31.

from Matt and we have not seen any discussion of finances.

:39:32.:39:48.

-- from the Brexit foot. We have not seen any recognition of any of these

:39:49.:39:57.

things after nearly a year on. I hope that when this parliament comes

:39:58.:40:02.

back to new session with the new Government, we could see the

:40:03.:40:04.

Government recognising the financial impact that Brexit Bill have. We can

:40:05.:40:10.

see them recognising the impact it will have on jobs. And we will see

:40:11.:40:15.

real changes and real recognition of this Government taking into account

:40:16.:40:23.

the effects of Brexit. During the Coalition Government,

:40:24.:40:29.

fiscal policy was unnecessarily tight. And our constituents have

:40:30.:40:36.

paid the price on that. We have now moved to a position in seven years

:40:37.:40:44.

where, despite the Prime Minister in her election campaign saying that

:40:45.:40:50.

taxes will be lower under a Conservative Government is

:40:51.:40:54.

re-elected, not actually seeing lower than what. Secondly, this

:40:55.:40:57.

year, on projections, which might not come to pass, of course,

:40:58.:41:02.

taxation as a percentage of national income is likely this year to be the

:41:03.:41:06.

highest in peace time in the United Kingdom. That is not exactly a low

:41:07.:41:13.

tax Government. And I think trying to pretend that one is, as a

:41:14.:41:20.

Conservative Party Government, is unfortunate in a general election.

:41:21.:41:24.

And it also leads to what I regard as an unfortunate trend on both

:41:25.:41:31.

sides of this House to talk about taxation as if it were an evil in

:41:32.:41:37.

and of itself. Taxation pays for the public services which all our

:41:38.:41:41.

constituents enjoy. And I have no problem with taxation if it is fair

:41:42.:41:47.

and sustainable, as the minister called about in her opening remarks.

:41:48.:41:54.

And if, as she also talked about, we can't down on tax avoidance. I only

:41:55.:41:58.

wish that this outgoing Government and to ever incoming Government were

:41:59.:42:03.

a little more forceful in public register of beneficial ownership of

:42:04.:42:09.

offshore held accounts and funds, particularly since about half of

:42:10.:42:16.

that amount, as far as we can tell, around the world, is held in British

:42:17.:42:20.

Overseas Territories. So the United Kingdom has a huge role to play. I

:42:21.:42:25.

salute the role that the Conservative Government has thus far

:42:26.:42:29.

played in this, but there is father to go and I hope that on the 9th of

:42:30.:42:33.

June, we will have an incoming Labour Government which will take it

:42:34.:42:40.

a lot further. I have done and seven at eight Finance bills of my time in

:42:41.:42:44.

this House, and some honourable members know, this will be my final

:42:45.:42:48.

speech to the House because I am retiring at the general election and

:42:49.:42:51.

I will be putting my feet up in the garden and watching the rest of you

:42:52.:42:57.

working. But I think that one has to try, as the right honourable member

:42:58.:43:01.

for Chichester, who has rightly been praised earlier in the debate,

:43:02.:43:04.

always tried, to be realistic about what is going on. And what is going

:43:05.:43:10.

on is that under the Coalition Government and the Conservative

:43:11.:43:14.

Government in the past two years, inequality of income has fallen.

:43:15.:43:24.

That is true. Unemployment has fallen fantastically. In round

:43:25.:43:31.

terms, employment is up by 2.75 million. That is a fantastic

:43:32.:43:38.

achievement. About one in five of those new jobs is a zero hours

:43:39.:43:41.

contracts and not all zero hours contracts are decried by those who

:43:42.:43:45.

have them. The proportion of workers who are working part-time in that

:43:46.:43:54.

seven years has hardly changed. There will be some who are working

:43:55.:43:58.

part-time and would prefer to work full-time, but many of those who are

:43:59.:44:03.

working part-time, including within that 2.75 million more jobs, choose

:44:04.:44:07.

to do so. And they should have the flexibility to do so. But that

:44:08.:44:15.

achievement on falling unemployment has been bought on a sea of debt.

:44:16.:44:24.

The national debt in the last seven years has gone up by almost 70%. And

:44:25.:44:31.

enormous amount in peace time in seven years. It is an enormous

:44:32.:44:39.

amount. And the deficit, I have to say, to this outgoing Government, it

:44:40.:44:43.

is a bit like Gordon Brown's old and real. -- golden rule. It was a car

:44:44.:44:52.

that kept getting kicked down the road, that Government borrowing

:44:53.:44:56.

should, on the economic cycle, be balanced. And then Gordon Brown, as

:44:57.:45:01.

Chancellor and Prime Minister, kept redefining what the economic cycle

:45:02.:45:06.

was. To try to make the figures work-out. With this Government and

:45:07.:45:11.

the previous Government, the annual deficit, which is still enormous, is

:45:12.:45:15.

always going to be sorted out in five years' time. Well, I am not

:45:16.:45:21.

sure how many of my constituents believe that any more. Particularly

:45:22.:45:27.

in a year when I think I am right in saying that the Government of

:45:28.:45:34.

Greece, through measures which I think, certainly many on this site

:45:35.:45:39.

allows adding Government benches Woodside Dommett site to painful and

:45:40.:45:43.

disruptive and unacceptable, but based upon those measures, forced

:45:44.:45:50.

upon them by the International Monetary Fund, will record surplus

:45:51.:45:53.

on its current account. Here we have on the wealthy UK, with the

:45:54.:45:58.

Government which, itself and predecessors for five years before,

:45:59.:46:00.

were saying, we want to get the deficit down and we will get it down

:46:01.:46:05.

in five years. And it is with another five years.

:46:06.:46:12.

They are doing far, far worse than the Government of Greece that is an

:46:13.:46:17.

indictment of seven of Conservative government. My constituents have had

:46:18.:46:23.

the pain, but they have not had the game. Inequality of wealth, in has

:46:24.:46:36.

increased markedly. And that is not only something which I, as a

:46:37.:46:40.

socialist finds distasteful, but I as a citizen of the United Kingdom

:46:41.:46:47.

worry about because we did it that they face ID becomes too an equal

:46:48.:46:52.

then there will be, or there is a severe risk of social fractures that

:46:53.:46:57.

if a society becomes to any goal. We see it in the housing market where

:46:58.:47:03.

we have a situation where many people will never have affordable

:47:04.:47:10.

housing. They will never have it. And those who do have affordable

:47:11.:47:17.

housing will often in the next generation get it because parents or

:47:18.:47:22.

grandparents did, and those individuals inherited a deposit or

:47:23.:47:26.

house from earlier generations in their family who owned property.

:47:27.:47:34.

That trend will lock in inequality in our society. Inequality which

:47:35.:47:39.

both sides of this house professed to decry and wish to address. And it

:47:40.:47:46.

will be logged into the housing market because, in the last ten

:47:47.:47:51.

years in particular in the United Kingdom, we have not built or

:47:52.:47:56.

created nearly enough housing units, and it has huge, huge social

:47:57.:48:03.

implications when that trend creates rigid inequality which will not be

:48:04.:48:08.

possible to overcome, whatever we do on schooling in this country. It

:48:09.:48:16.

will be locked in. Do you inherited own payments on your house, or don't

:48:17.:48:22.

you? That is very sad for our society. A society in which average

:48:23.:48:26.

earnings are still below what they were nine years ago, before the

:48:27.:48:32.

crash. That's average earnings. Average incomes have risen, because

:48:33.:48:37.

of the triple lock. That average earnings are still below. That is

:48:38.:48:42.

not all the Government's fault. They have made good steps, I don't think

:48:43.:48:45.

they've gone far enough on the national living wage, they are

:48:46.:48:54.

converts. They opposed the minimum wage on principle in 1998, but this

:48:55.:49:00.

government has gone a lot further than I and many on these benches

:49:01.:49:06.

expected it to do in terms of a statutory minimum wage. I don't

:49:07.:49:10.

think they've gone far enough and I think that's bad for social

:49:11.:49:13.

cohesion, poverty in this country and economic growth. In a capitalist

:49:14.:49:22.

society one way to drive productivity, one way, is higher

:49:23.:49:27.

wages. So that there is a substitution of capital for Labour

:49:28.:49:33.

and when you substitute capital for Labour, very often, you get higher

:49:34.:49:38.

productivity. Overall. Not in every case, but very often. But we do need

:49:39.:49:43.

to do more. The Government has made some steps in this regard. We don't

:49:44.:49:48.

think they've gone nearly far enough. As related to technical

:49:49.:49:56.

training and upscaling the workforce, I have to say the

:49:57.:50:00.

Conservative benches have been very late to that party. We have a target

:50:01.:50:04.

of 3 million apprentices which may or may not be met. One fears it may

:50:05.:50:10.

be met through redefining courses and training schemes which many of

:50:11.:50:14.

us would not regard as apprenticeships to call them

:50:15.:50:17.

apprenticeships and make figures work. That is always a danger. But

:50:18.:50:22.

it is laudable that the Government wants to take policies from Labour

:50:23.:50:26.

and increase the level of training and technical training in our

:50:27.:50:32.

economy. This finance bill will help, somewhat, in that regard. But

:50:33.:50:36.

what we've also had in the last seven years, and it's not addressed

:50:37.:50:40.

in this bill, is insufficient infrastructure spending and we have

:50:41.:50:45.

had and are having, what I regard, as inappropriate infrastructure

:50:46.:50:49.

spending. We are going to be spending less, as I hope, about ?60

:50:50.:50:56.

billion or more on the a jest to railway line which is a very bad

:50:57.:51:00.

allocation of capital for transport spending. -- HS2. We are on course

:51:01.:51:10.

to be spending too much higher literacy prizes, indirectly, money

:51:11.:51:14.

on Hinkley point see nuclear director which will be built by a

:51:15.:51:19.

bankrupt French company, only still going because it's been bailed out

:51:20.:51:23.

by its state owners, the French government. Using a design which has

:51:24.:51:28.

never worked anywhere in the world, being tried in Finland and in

:51:29.:51:32.

Normandy and those project are years overdue. And use over budget.

:51:33.:51:38.

Perhaps, massively overbudget, I should say. But is this government's

:51:39.:51:44.

approach to English are just spending. We on these benches

:51:45.:51:48.

recognise that they have started to borrow some of our policies in terms

:51:49.:51:53.

of energies and domestic energy caps. But they have not gone far

:51:54.:51:58.

enough on integer to spending and have somewhat lost their way on some

:51:59.:52:03.

of these big projects, I think. The final issue, for me, it was

:52:04.:52:09.

mentioned by the honourable member for Aberdeen North, when she spoke

:52:10.:52:15.

earlier today, Brexit. It looms over all of us and all out residuals but

:52:16.:52:20.

doesn't quite loom over this finance bill which is somewhat surprising.

:52:21.:52:25.

The Treasury before the referendum last summer was very keen to put our

:52:26.:52:32.

projections of out what Treasury officials thought would be the

:52:33.:52:37.

consequences of a Brexit wrote in that referendum. I thought that was

:52:38.:52:41.

an entirely appropriate use of Treasury resources government whose

:52:42.:52:48.

official was to support the United Kingdom remaining in the European

:52:49.:52:53.

Union. We had all those projections, but since the 23rd of June last

:52:54.:52:59.

year, it seems to me to have gone somewhat quiet in that regard. Now,

:53:00.:53:04.

I appreciate that the United Kingdom is still come in round terms, 100

:53:05.:53:12.

weeks away from leaving the EU. That makes it more difficult to make

:53:13.:53:16.

projections as to what is likely to happen with our economy, partly

:53:17.:53:22.

because we don't know what the Brexit package will be. That, there

:53:23.:53:29.

are some signs of concern in the markets about Brexit. Which I don't

:53:30.:53:35.

think are adequately reflected in the financial measures proposed by

:53:36.:53:40.

the outgoing government and measures proposed in this finance bill. And I

:53:41.:53:46.

really think the Government, if it were, unfortunately, to my view, to

:53:47.:53:51.

be re-elected, it ought to get its act together a bit more and more

:53:52.:53:55.

publicly about where it sees the economy going with Brexit. I

:53:56.:54:00.

appreciate, as I said, that cannot be done easily when we don't know

:54:01.:54:04.

what the final package will look like, whether it will be a hard

:54:05.:54:10.

Brexit with no package at all. But to reassure the markets, and to

:54:11.:54:14.

reassure our constituents, whichever side they might have been an the

:54:15.:54:19.

referendum vote, the Government of the day, from the 9th of June, does

:54:20.:54:24.

have to be, I think, rather more open about the direction of travel

:54:25.:54:31.

and what it is doing to be proactive, rather than reactive to

:54:32.:54:36.

the whole process of Brexit and its effects upon the economy. Whichever

:54:37.:54:41.

colour of government it is, because without that greater clarity, the

:54:42.:54:46.

markets will be more concerned and more spooked, and our constituents

:54:47.:54:52.

will be more concerned and more worried than they need to be. Of

:54:53.:54:58.

course, nobody has a crystal ball. But a bit of projection forwards,

:54:59.:55:03.

more so than has been the case I think would be helpful to all of us.

:55:04.:55:11.

Here here. The question is that the bill be now read the third time, As

:55:12.:55:15.

many as are of the opinion say 'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'.. The

:55:16.:55:28.

ayes have it. The ayes habit. Health service medical supplies, cost bill,

:55:29.:55:31.

lords, consideration of Lord's message. The motion to be taken is

:55:32.:55:38.

to disagree to the Lords amendment three B with which it will

:55:39.:55:43.

consider... Of which we will consider government amendments a and

:55:44.:55:49.

B in blue. I call the Minister to move to disagree with Lords

:55:50.:55:56.

amendment, three B. Mr Philip Dunn. Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to move

:55:57.:56:00.

that this house disagrees with the Lords in their amendment three B.

:56:01.:56:05.

But proposes, instead, amendments a and B in lieu. When we last debated

:56:06.:56:12.

this bill I reminded the house of its importance and I don't post to

:56:13.:56:17.

go over that ground once again. Save for noting the three primary

:56:18.:56:21.

purposes of the bill which are, firstly to give powers to align

:56:22.:56:25.

broadly on a statutory scheme with the controlled prices of branded

:56:26.:56:30.

medicines with voluntary schemes and introducing the possibility of a

:56:31.:56:34.

payment percentage for the statutory scheme. This would deliver ?90

:56:35.:56:38.

million funding for the NHS every year. Secondly, it gives us stronger

:56:39.:56:46.

powers to set prices of an branded generic medicines where companies

:56:47.:56:50.

charge and justifiably high prices in the absence of competition.

:56:51.:56:56.

Thirdly, it is quiet companies in the supply chain for medicines,

:56:57.:56:59.

medical supplies and other related products to provide as with

:57:00.:57:05.

information. We intend to use this information to operate our pricing

:57:06.:57:09.

schemes and reimburse community pharmacies for the products they

:57:10.:57:13.

dispense. And assure ourselves that the supply chain, or specific

:57:14.:57:19.

products, provide good value for money for the NHS and the taxpayer.

:57:20.:57:24.

During the passage of the bill in the other place, we agreed with 23

:57:25.:57:30.

amendments, made by their Lordships, and those we accept have made this a

:57:31.:57:36.

better bill. We were Jack did just a single amendment. And despite the

:57:37.:57:40.

strengths of our art and the other place has now made amendment three

:57:41.:57:45.

B. Which, to all intents and purposes has the same effect as the

:57:46.:57:50.

original amendment. It would introduce a duty on the Government

:57:51.:57:54.

to exercise its functions to control costs and take into account the need

:57:55.:57:59.

to promote and support a growing life sciences sector. To ensure

:58:00.:58:02.

patients have access to new medicines. As I explained previously

:58:03.:58:10.

to this house, this amendment, which is no different in fact, would

:58:11.:58:14.

undermine one of the core purposes of the bill to enable the Government

:58:15.:58:18.

to put effective cost controls in place. In our view this could

:58:19.:58:22.

encourage companies to bring legal challenges where the cost controls

:58:23.:58:26.

have not, in themselves, promoted growth in the life sciences

:58:27.:58:30.

industry. This could significantly hinder the Government's ability to

:58:31.:58:35.

exercise its powers effectively to control cost. This would have a

:58:36.:58:39.

particularly detrimental effect if the Government were to take action

:58:40.:58:48.

to control the price of an unbranded generic medicine, where it is clear

:58:49.:58:51.

that the company is exploiting the NHS. There was cross-party agreement

:58:52.:58:58.

when we debated the bill. The Government might be challenged not

:58:59.:59:02.

because the cost was inappropriate but the action does not promote the

:59:03.:59:06.

life sciences sector. This would, of course, could be the right thing for

:59:07.:59:12.

the NHS, for patients and taxpayers. The powers in the Bill that enabled

:59:13.:59:17.

this kind of action have received universal, cross-party support in

:59:18.:59:23.

both houses. So the debate on this issue in the other place we have

:59:24.:59:27.

clarified they did not intend to undermine the core purpose of the

:59:28.:59:31.

bill. Rather, the intent was to ensure there is a mechanism laid out

:59:32.:59:35.

on the face of the Bill to ensure the Government causes two floors did

:59:36.:59:39.

not reflect on the impact of price control schemes in terms of impact

:59:40.:59:45.

on the industry. And access to cost-effective medicines. So with

:59:46.:59:51.

this clarity the Government is now putting forward an amendment in lieu

:59:52.:59:55.

of Lord's's amendment CBE, which will achieve that intent without

:59:56.:59:58.

undermining the core purpose of the bill. Consultation requirements are

:59:59.:00:06.

already set out in section 236 of the NHS act. Riots implementation of

:00:07.:00:12.

any new Star Trek price control implements and is. This amendment,

:00:13.:00:17.

-- statutory price control implements. They must be consulted

:00:18.:00:24.

on before proceeding with a new statutory scheme. These are,

:00:25.:00:30.

firstly, economic consequences for the life sciences industry in the

:00:31.:00:36.

UK. Secondly, consequences for the economy. And thirdly, consequences

:00:37.:00:41.

for patients, to whom health service medicines are to be supplied and for

:00:42.:00:46.

other health service patients. The acquirement is framed in this way in

:00:47.:00:49.

order not only to consider the economic consequences for the life

:00:50.:00:53.

sciences industry, and for patients who may benefit from new medicines,

:00:54.:00:57.

but also to balance these factors against widely considerations. I am

:00:58.:01:03.

sure the house will agree that while a thriving life sciences industry

:01:04.:01:07.

under access to new medicines are highly desirable, this must not come

:01:08.:01:12.

at any cost. It is the Government responsibility to achieve the right

:01:13.:01:14.

balance and to be held accountable it.

:01:15.:01:20.

As with all consultations, Government must give all responses

:01:21.:01:23.

due consideration before finalising policy. Setting these particular

:01:24.:01:28.

requirements out in the face of the bill does not limit the scope of

:01:29.:01:31.

consultation, offering both Government and consultees the

:01:32.:01:35.

opportunity to give all relevant issues proper consideration. The

:01:36.:01:41.

amendment is specific to section 260 three. That is to say, the powers to

:01:42.:01:45.

put a statutory scheme in place for medicines. Where action is being

:01:46.:01:50.

taken against a specific incident the Mac incidence of high prices for

:01:51.:01:53.

individual medicine, it would not be appropriate for this to be subject

:01:54.:01:56.

to such wide-ranging consultation. In these cases, the NHS Act already

:01:57.:02:03.

requires consultation with the appropriate industry body or bodies,

:02:04.:02:07.

prior to exercise of his powers. With this amendment, the Government

:02:08.:02:15.

has, we believe, address the substance of the concerns raised by

:02:16.:02:18.

the honourable gentleman at each stage, to his credit, for

:02:19.:02:24.

consistency, in consideration of this bill. And by members and the

:02:25.:02:27.

other place. I hope people therefore welcome this amendment am and I beg

:02:28.:02:32.

to move. The question is that this House disagrees with the Lord's in

:02:33.:02:43.

the amendment, 3B. I would like to thank the Minister

:02:44.:02:46.

for approaching the outstanding areas of concern in such a

:02:47.:02:48.

conciliatory manner, which has allowed us to approach this

:02:49.:02:56.

amendment the Government has brought forward today. We are keen that the

:02:57.:03:00.

NHS gains better control of the costs of medicines and close some of

:03:01.:03:03.

the loopholes in the system that has been subjected blatant abuses in

:03:04.:03:06.

recent years, as we have discussed in the passage of this bill. The

:03:07.:03:11.

negotiations on the amendment where, by their nature, speedy but no less

:03:12.:03:14.

effective. I doubt we will be so fortunate with Brexit discussions on

:03:15.:03:21.

the future. Jeremy Clarkson of the bill, we have heard very clearly the

:03:22.:03:24.

current state of affairs which does not serve the Asians or taxpayer as

:03:25.:03:30.

well as they could. -- during the discussion of the bill.

:03:31.:03:42.

Where that to be applied to health spending across the board, many of

:03:43.:03:47.

the exchanges we have had across the dispatch box in the last 12 months

:03:48.:03:51.

of soul could have been a little less lively. Despite this increase

:03:52.:03:55.

in spending, the Minister will be aware that there are serious

:03:56.:03:59.

concerns still being raised about the availability of new treatments.

:04:00.:04:02.

I would like to take a few moments to read some of the specific

:04:03.:04:09.

concerns patients have had. And the budget impact test that could see

:04:10.:04:13.

introduction is of treatments that cost ?20 million a year delayed by

:04:14.:04:15.

three years. We are still concerned that some patients with certain

:04:16.:04:19.

conditions will be this report only affected by this. One condition,

:04:20.:04:24.

type two diabetes, there are several drugs available for it that cost the

:04:25.:04:29.

NHS more than ?20 million a year due to the patient number involved.

:04:30.:04:34.

There is one that costs ?21 million, and other cost 41 million, another

:04:35.:04:42.

?77 million and lastly another that ?70 million. Can the Government tell

:04:43.:04:49.

us and estimated number of patients that could be affected by the

:04:50.:04:55.

introduction of the impact test? Can the Minister confirm this will

:04:56.:05:00.

impact on patients' right to treatment under the NHS

:05:01.:05:04.

Constitution? We have seen the 18 week consultation effectively

:05:05.:05:13.

abandoned. Also of concern is the fact that this could apply to end of

:05:14.:05:17.

life drugs. For those patients, there is no time to waste. What can

:05:18.:05:21.

the Minister do to ensure that valuable time is not wasted when

:05:22.:05:27.

drugs at the impact tests for those patients? Coming back to the

:05:28.:05:30.

amendment, we are content that it takes us to more or less the place

:05:31.:05:35.

that previous amendments did without having the effect of binding the

:05:36.:05:40.

hand of the Government totally. We welcome concessions made, which

:05:41.:05:43.

means we support this new amendment. By requiring the Secretary of State

:05:44.:05:49.

to consult on enacting any powers and dumber on the life sciences

:05:50.:05:51.

sector and most importantly, patients, we have an extra safeguard

:05:52.:05:56.

that we hope will ensure the right balance is struck between

:05:57.:06:00.

controlling cost, promoting life sciences industry and making sure

:06:01.:06:03.

patients get access to new treatments as quickly as possible.

:06:04.:06:12.

We consider it just as important for the other two areas to be getting

:06:13.:06:17.

into a coma and other new rules are developed. This is important because

:06:18.:06:20.

at the moment we have significance in terms -- significant concerns

:06:21.:06:30.

about the stifling of investment. On that, the imminent departure of

:06:31.:06:33.

European medicines agency from these shores is against a worrying

:06:34.:06:37.

backdrop of investment falling in the sector by 20% in just over three

:06:38.:06:41.

years. And the reduction in investment is not just about the

:06:42.:06:45.

impact this has on growth and jobs in the country. It also has a

:06:46.:06:49.

profound impact on patients as well. International comparisons of health

:06:50.:06:59.

technology assessment report in May showed cancer patients are missing

:07:00.:07:04.

out on innovative treatments being made available. For every 100

:07:05.:07:07.

European patients who can access new medicines in the first year

:07:08.:07:11.

available, just 15 UK patients had this same access. This is clearly

:07:12.:07:15.

something we need to reverse. We hope this amendment will go some way

:07:16.:07:19.

to reversing that trend in for a consultation process that requires

:07:20.:07:21.

the Secretary of State to specifically consider these issues

:07:22.:07:25.

will mean that if the consultation is genuine, if it is open-minded and

:07:26.:07:29.

involves a complete conscientious and considered examination of the

:07:30.:07:33.

responses to it, then we will hopefully see a system that protects

:07:34.:07:37.

and supports our industry. But, most importantly, reaffirms one of the

:07:38.:07:44.

founding principles of the NHS. Treatment should be free to all at

:07:45.:07:50.

the point of use. That is something we are all keen to defend. In

:07:51.:07:55.

conclusion, we will support this amendment and keep a close eye on

:07:56.:07:57.

the many issues that we have raised today which I'm not going to go away

:07:58.:08:01.

just because there is now a general election. -- which are not going to

:08:02.:08:10.

go away. This will be my last appearance in the chamber before the

:08:11.:08:15.

general election. I would like to thank you for your courtesy in this

:08:16.:08:22.

place. Behind-the-scenes, and offer what goes on to make sure these

:08:23.:08:27.

debates have a coherence and fluency that might appear effortless to the

:08:28.:08:32.

outside work. We can assure them, it most definitely is not. I have found

:08:33.:08:37.

everyone behind-the-scenes yet to be very helpful and well, and it has

:08:38.:08:41.

made it easy for me to do my job. On that note, I will finish by saying

:08:42.:08:44.

that this has been much more than a job to me. It has been a privilege

:08:45.:08:50.

of my life to represent the de Boer Ellesmere Port and felt that at the

:08:51.:08:53.

election, I have the opportunity to continue to do that. -- represent

:08:54.:08:59.

the people of Ellesmere Port. I thank for his extreme kind words and

:09:00.:09:03.

courtesy, which he always shows at the dispatch box and in the chamber.

:09:04.:09:10.

Thank you very much, Madam Deputy is bigger. Like the honourable member

:09:11.:09:14.

for Ellesmere Port, obviously this will be my last time speaking in the

:09:15.:09:22.

chamber before dissolution. As a newbie, I would like to be tribute

:09:23.:09:25.

to the staff of the House have made it much easier for us to come in

:09:26.:09:30.

here than we had expected. I am also glad that it is on a bill that, in

:09:31.:09:34.

actual fact, despite some abroad is agreement is, we have worked cross

:09:35.:09:38.

party across the chamber to actually do a piece of work that we all

:09:39.:09:44.

agreed needed to be done. I'll is a welcome the Government's amendment,

:09:45.:09:47.

although I would have to say I would have laid out the three sections the

:09:48.:09:52.

other way round. Because actually the whole point of the NHS and the

:09:53.:09:57.

reason we're discussing it is the number one importance being patient

:09:58.:10:01.

access. I would not have put them third, I would put them first.

:10:02.:10:08.

Because I think it is really an issue for patients and it really is

:10:09.:10:10.

a fear for patients not getting access to drugs. As was mentioned by

:10:11.:10:16.

your noble member from the Labour front bench is, we have a

:10:17.:10:22.

significant delay that is measurable in comparison to other countries. --

:10:23.:10:26.

by the honourable member. If certain types of cancer appeared, --

:10:27.:10:38.

compared, we can see that some... Where we fall down is with people

:10:39.:10:43.

with advanced disease and that is why we must not delay. In regards to

:10:44.:10:50.

the budget assessment, the concern I have is that we will interact with

:10:51.:10:53.

the loss of the European Medicines Agency. I am not talking about

:10:54.:10:58.

losing their agency itself, but not being part of the scheme. We know

:10:59.:11:01.

that there is a danger that drugs are being presented for licensing in

:11:02.:11:07.

the United Kingdom at a later date than they currently are for the US

:11:08.:11:09.

and the EU as being major markets. It is likely that we would be due --

:11:10.:11:18.

be behind Japan. If we are seen as a hostile market, and I don't mean we

:11:19.:11:21.

should simply hand over any amount of money, but if we are seen as a

:11:22.:11:25.

hostile market where there is an expected delay of expensive drugs

:11:26.:11:29.

for three years, there is a danger that international pharmaceuticals

:11:30.:11:36.

will say, do you know what, we will license everywhere else and then

:11:37.:11:39.

come back to the UK in a few years. That means our patients would have a

:11:40.:11:43.

significantly delayed access. We need to think about how that feeds

:11:44.:11:47.

in to things like trials and research. That is when it does feed

:11:48.:11:51.

into the life sciences system. Because if we are not using what is

:11:52.:11:55.

considered the gold standard drug at the time of the new international

:11:56.:12:01.

trial, we will not be able to take part in the comparison of that gold

:12:02.:12:11.

standard with a new drug. The UK has led the EU research network, the

:12:12.:12:14.

biggest in the world. And we have been major players in that. It is

:12:15.:12:19.

important that we realise how building in this delay from NHS

:12:20.:12:24.

England could undermine that. Surely it should be part of the Nice

:12:25.:12:31.

process. It should be clear to pharmaceuticals that when they come

:12:32.:12:34.

as a drug, the prize, what process they have to go through, what

:12:35.:12:37.

evidence they will have to bring forward and how they will have to

:12:38.:12:40.

negotiate and bring forward a price. And I fear that we will have a delay

:12:41.:12:47.

in drugs being licensed. That will affect us in Scotland, even though

:12:48.:12:51.

Nice decisions do not apply to us. If a drug is simply not licensed

:12:52.:12:55.

here, it will be irrelevant for the Scottish Medicines Consortium and it

:12:56.:13:02.

might not choose to fund it because it is an unlicensed medicine. I

:13:03.:13:06.

think we need to be looking at how the loss of the European Medicines

:13:07.:13:17.

Agency Dental Will Work With This. -- will work with this. The drugs it

:13:18.:13:24.

will hit his new cancer drugs because they are expensive. It will

:13:25.:13:29.

hit drugs for new diseases that the MA have led on because they are

:13:30.:13:36.

bespoke and inevitably and -- expensive. But if someone came up

:13:37.:13:43.

with a fabulous cure for dementia, the budget assessment would be

:13:44.:13:48.

triggered. I thank her for giving way. I agree with her about what she

:13:49.:13:51.

says about the European drugs agency. I have had lots of letters

:13:52.:13:55.

regarding that from people who are concerned about it. The results also

:13:56.:14:02.

the delay in the Government actually being a price. I sometimes think

:14:03.:14:08.

that these drugs companies take the Government to the cleaners. I thank

:14:09.:14:11.

him for his intervention but that is obviously why the Government are

:14:12.:14:15.

trying to have this bill, to have a degree of control and do not have

:14:16.:14:19.

just run away drugs costs. Of course we agree with that and that is in

:14:20.:14:23.

the bill. But it is trying to have that there is a predictable system

:14:24.:14:29.

of licensing in the UK where a pharmaceutical company will know

:14:30.:14:32.

what they have to do and then to the table. -- bring. It might mean that

:14:33.:14:39.

there has to be more flexible digital only Nice process. But to go

:14:40.:14:44.

through the Nice process and be defined as a cost-effective drug and

:14:45.:14:48.

then hit another barrier that is less predictable, that is not good.

:14:49.:14:56.

The danger of this is that this will affect us in Scotland just as much

:14:57.:14:59.

as in England, regardless of what the drug funding decisions would be,

:15:00.:15:04.

because licensing is reserved. The Government need to take that into

:15:05.:15:07.

account because, as I say, in the order that it is in here, patients

:15:08.:15:12.

are thought whereas I think patients come first. -- patients are third.

:15:13.:15:20.

Thank you. I had not intended to make a significant response in light

:15:21.:15:23.

of this debate but I cannot resist the opportunity, as other colleagues

:15:24.:15:28.

are spoken have taken advantage of the fact that it is their final

:15:29.:15:32.

appearance in this Parliament at the dispatch box, speaking for their

:15:33.:15:35.

parties. So I cannot really resist the opportunity to join that

:15:36.:15:42.

particular club. Underwood like to follow the honourable gentleman in

:15:43.:15:44.

thanking Members of the House for the work that they did. -- I would

:15:45.:15:49.

like. Both in committee and on the floor of the House, in passage of

:15:50.:15:53.

this bill. I would like to congratulate the honourable

:15:54.:15:54.

gentleman, whose peaks of the opposition and Elmden -- Ellesmere

:15:55.:16:02.

Port, who has given us a valedictory perhaps suggesting he will not be

:16:03.:16:05.

returning to this House. In some respects I would welcome mat and in

:16:06.:16:08.

others I would regret it because he has been a very cooperative

:16:09.:16:12.

colleague in his bill. I would also like to place unrecognised thanks to

:16:13.:16:16.

the honourable lady to Central Ayrshire for her contributions to

:16:17.:16:17.

the bill. I would like to thank my

:16:18.:16:26.

Parliamentary Private sector who has been a stalwart supporter and the

:16:27.:16:30.

departmental whip who has joined as in his place today for the work he's

:16:31.:16:35.

done to work the Department of Health, not always the smoothest

:16:36.:16:46.

ride for government whips. But in response to the comments made by the

:16:47.:16:49.

honourable gentleman on the budget impact tests. I think it was a night

:16:50.:16:57.

tried when his challenge for me to identify whether certain specific

:16:58.:17:01.

drugs would be caught by this test or not, and what I can say, of

:17:02.:17:07.

course, is that this applies for new drugs, drugs already licensed and on

:17:08.:17:09.

the list which won't because by the test because they are already

:17:10.:17:15.

licensed and in use. The intent which came through the consultation

:17:16.:17:18.

which concluded in January was that it shouldn't be seen as a threshold

:17:19.:17:24.

which would have a direct impact on the applicability of these drugs. It

:17:25.:17:28.

was designed to provide an opportunity for renegotiating scope

:17:29.:17:34.

for the NHS to try and get a better price when a drug which would have a

:17:35.:17:40.

significant cost to the NHS was in prospect. So although the honourable

:17:41.:17:45.

lady is concerned about the delay of the impact of this bill, and the

:17:46.:17:51.

delay from the masts of the DMA. We don't see this impacting in quite

:17:52.:17:55.

the way she does. We think it will impact in one in five new medicines

:17:56.:18:00.

being brought forward for use in this country. We have, as we've

:18:01.:18:05.

said, on repeated occasions a strong desire to see a vibrant life

:18:06.:18:10.

sciences industry in this country. They have been significant

:18:11.:18:13.

investments in this country since the referendum on the 23rd of June,

:18:14.:18:18.

and with this bill in prospect, so we don't have quite the same fears

:18:19.:18:27.

as have been expressed today. Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker,

:18:28.:18:30.

before I beg to move this amendment I would like to say to a colleague

:18:31.:18:36.

from the opposite benches who is here on the previous debate, and

:18:37.:18:40.

served on the committee, the member for Wolverhampton South West has had

:18:41.:18:44.

a distinguished career in this house, and has served on finance

:18:45.:18:51.

bills in the past with me, ad nauseam, and I was therefore

:18:52.:18:55.

pleased, but some trepidation to see him put himself forward to serve on

:18:56.:18:59.

the bill committee here, and he lived up to all expectations. I wish

:19:00.:19:06.

him well. The question is that this has disagrees with the Lords in

:19:07.:19:11.

their amendment three B. Decision-macro. The ayes habit. With

:19:12.:19:18.

the leave of the house we will take government amendments a and B in

:19:19.:19:23.

lieu of Lords Amendments three B together. The Minister to move

:19:24.:19:30.

formally. The decision is that the amendments be made, as many of the

:19:31.:19:33.

opinions they are eyed, of the country no? The ayes habit.

:19:34.:19:45.

Do we take them all separately, or... ? With the leave of the house

:19:46.:19:56.

I will take motions number four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten,

:19:57.:20:01.

in 11 together. The Minister to move. The question is as on the

:20:02.:20:11.

order papers. Of the opinions they are icon on the country no. The ayes

:20:12.:20:13.

habit. The petition of residents of Glasgow

:20:14.:20:29.

North West. A similar petition has been signed by 640 people and a

:20:30.:20:35.

further 446 people online. It declares that Post Office Limited

:20:36.:20:40.

has announced that the Post Office on an avenue in Drumchapel is under

:20:41.:20:45.

threat of closure. This provides a vital service for many local

:20:46.:20:49.

residents, the last of which would have a detrimental effect and the

:20:50.:20:54.

impact on the wider community in Drumchapel as well as causing

:20:55.:20:59.

considerable concern for staff. The opportunity to franchise the current

:21:00.:21:03.

office, this could endanger the ongoing provision of services and

:21:04.:21:06.

jobs in the local area as well as the franchise's current, location in

:21:07.:21:15.

the heart of the community. It is noticeable just how busy counters

:21:16.:21:19.

aren't how strongly the community feels about the proposal. The

:21:20.:21:24.

petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the

:21:25.:21:27.

Government to call upon the post office to halt any plans to close

:21:28.:21:31.

the Drumchapel Post Office and ensure that these services and jobs

:21:32.:21:36.

can be maintained and protected in the local area.

:21:37.:21:53.

Petition, Drumchapel. This. I'd like to put forward a petition against

:21:54.:22:10.

cuts in magazines receipt signed by 156 people, who signed online. We

:22:11.:22:21.

urge the Secretary of State for Education to reconsider the former

:22:22.:22:24.

to insurance that Calderdale schools do not lose out and no school

:22:25.:22:26.

receives less than 4800 per pupil. Mind you. Petition, school funding

:22:27.:22:56.

formulae in Calderdale. See Lucas. I rise to present a petition of

:22:57.:23:01.

residents of Wrexham who declared that the petition recognises the

:23:02.:23:06.

long military tradition of Wrexham in North Wales and its relationship

:23:07.:23:10.

with the Royal Welch Fusiliers and Royal Electrical and Mechanical

:23:11.:23:14.

Engineers and declare they are concerned about the pros all to move

:23:15.:23:19.

battalion headquarters from Wrexham to Bristol away from the area which

:23:20.:23:24.

as heard the British Army in Wales for so many years. The petitioners

:23:25.:23:28.

request of the House of Commons urged the Government to retain the

:23:29.:23:32.

current 101 Battalion Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers

:23:33.:23:33.

in Wrexham. Here, here. Definitely! Petition, Royal edge cool mechanical

:23:34.:23:54.

engineers at Hightown barracks, Wrexham. I rise to present the

:23:55.:24:06.

petition of residents in the constituency of Clwyd South, of

:24:07.:24:11.

which there are several hundred signatories based on the same

:24:12.:24:14.

petition as that of my honourable friend the member for Wrexham. Our

:24:15.:24:20.

deep concerns on this particular issue. The petitioners request that

:24:21.:24:25.

the House of Commons urges the Government to retain the current 101

:24:26.:24:31.

battalion, Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers in Wrexham.

:24:32.:24:34.

It's time the Government listened, Madam Deputy Speaker.

:24:35.:24:49.

Petition, the closure of a medical centre. Sorry, the Royal Electrical

:24:50.:24:58.

and Mechanical Engineers, Wrexham. I apologise, sorry. Bank you, Madam

:24:59.:25:06.

Deputy Speaker, I rise to present a petition signed by 421 residence in

:25:07.:25:11.

the red carpet assiduously. This declares that the decision to close

:25:12.:25:18.

the medical centre will leave over 4000 patients, many of whom are

:25:19.:25:22.

elderly, without a medical practice and require them to travel to a

:25:23.:25:26.

neighbouring village to register with a GP. Petitioners request the

:25:27.:25:30.

House of Commons to urge the Government to prevent the closure of

:25:31.:25:31.

the medical centre. So they should! Thanks, very much. Petition, the

:25:32.:25:52.

closure of a medical centre. Iain Murray. Bank you, I rise to present

:25:53.:26:00.

a petition signed by over 4000 residents of Edinburgh South, the

:26:01.:26:03.

petition declared that the Government has forced a

:26:04.:26:06.

transformation programme on the post office that has placed local

:26:07.:26:09.

branches in jeopardy. Following a report carried out it found that

:26:10.:26:16.

closures had been bad for customers, ranking franchises were slunk

:26:17.:26:20.

round-ups is across a range of indicators including queue times,

:26:21.:26:25.

service times, customer services and advice on products, disabled access

:26:26.:26:29.

and counter positions. The post office had already spent money

:26:30.:26:33.

refurbishing the offices and is now closing and franchising with ?5.9

:26:34.:26:37.

million spent since 2010 reversion 59 offices. They announced they will

:26:38.:26:44.

close in 2016, an average of ?100,000 per branch. Petitioners

:26:45.:26:48.

request the House of Commons urge the Government to suspend the

:26:49.:26:53.

closures and instead ensure the post office works with chrome branches

:26:54.:26:57.

including my morning office to make sure they are more efficient and

:26:58.:27:08.

profitable. -- my Morningside office. Bank you. Morningside. This

:27:09.:27:18.

franchising. I rise to present a petition of some

:27:19.:27:34.

1600 signatures of residents in my constituency. This petition declares

:27:35.:27:37.

that current government proposals for a fairer funding schools do not

:27:38.:27:43.

achieve their funding for pubertal in my constituency. They, and other

:27:44.:27:48.

pupils in the Cheshire East local authority area would be the lowest

:27:49.:27:52.

funded in the country. A level of funding local headteacher state

:27:53.:27:57.

would not enable them to provide the standard of education, facilities

:27:58.:28:00.

and support which are pupils deserve. I fully support this

:28:01.:28:04.

petition. And the petitioners therefore request that the House of

:28:05.:28:08.

Commons urges the Government to review the proposed funding from a

:28:09.:28:12.

to reflect a fairer level of funding for local schools to ensure that

:28:13.:28:15.

children in the local authority area of Cheshire East have the same

:28:16.:28:21.

opportunities as children in similar schools and other local authorities.

:28:22.:28:39.

Find you. There are funding for pubertal

:28:40.:28:44.

I also rise to present a petition on the fear funding for all schools of

:28:45.:29:03.

over 1500 residents of Cheshire East, including 900 from

:29:04.:29:07.

Macclesfield. Also including residence in the constituency of my

:29:08.:29:12.

honourable friend. Who, due to his ministerial role could not do so

:29:13.:29:15.

himself and asked me to do this on his behalf. I am pleased to see him

:29:16.:29:22.

in his behalf on the front bench. The petitioner has requested that

:29:23.:29:25.

the House of Commons urges the Government to review its funding

:29:26.:29:29.

formula for schools to ensure all children have access to properly

:29:30.:29:33.

funded education and invest in the future of our country. The

:29:34.:29:35.

petitioners therefore remain, etc. Petition, fairer funding formula for

:29:36.:29:53.

school pupils in the Macclesfield assiduously and Cheshire is local

:29:54.:30:02.

authority area. I beg to move that this house may now adjourn. The

:30:03.:30:05.

question is that this house do now adjourn. Andy Burnham. Buying queue,

:30:06.:30:12.

Madam Deputy Speaker. Through you, can I thank Mr Speaker for giving me

:30:13.:30:17.

this opportunity to make what will be my last speech in this house. I

:30:18.:30:24.

make it on the subject of contaminated blood, for a simple

:30:25.:30:29.

reason. Knowing what I know, and what I believe to be true, I

:30:30.:30:34.

wouldn't be able to live with myself if I left here without putting it on

:30:35.:30:40.

the official record. I will be honest, it is a speech made with a

:30:41.:30:45.

sense of guilt, in that I believe we are all here, all of us,

:30:46.:30:50.

collectively culpable of failing to act on evidence that is via before

:30:51.:30:56.

us, if only we cared to look. And, by extent from that, failing

:30:57.:30:59.

thousands of our fellow citizens who are the victims of, perhaps, the

:31:00.:31:03.

greatest untold and justice in the history of this country. --

:31:04.:31:07.

injustice. I first want to explain the genesis

:31:08.:31:17.

of this speech. Last year, the chair of the all-party group on

:31:18.:31:22.

contaminated blood, who has done absolutely outstanding work on

:31:23.:31:24.

behalf of those who have continued to struggle for truth and justice.

:31:25.:31:31.

She invited me to a meeting to discuss where next for the campaign.

:31:32.:31:39.

We have had the raising of expectations in the last parliament.

:31:40.:31:41.

A lot of goodwill on both sides of the House. A sense that people

:31:42.:31:46.

wanted to do something to help. That continued in the early part of this

:31:47.:31:51.

Parliament. It continued sense building that something was going to

:31:52.:31:57.

be done. But following the raising of expectations, victims now feel

:31:58.:32:03.

they have been led to the top of the hill, although to be let down once

:32:04.:32:08.

again. Whilst not doubting the sincerity with which it was made,

:32:09.:32:13.

the Government's failure to back the apology from the former Prime

:32:14.:32:19.

Minister at his last PMQs with substantial action has left people

:32:20.:32:21.

filling in the wilderness all over again. -- feeling. To try and find a

:32:22.:32:29.

way forward for them, my rubble friend asked me to Wheatley Group

:32:30.:32:33.

about whether my experience working on their Wells-Burr campaign might

:32:34.:32:36.

provide any insights that would be useful to those still campaigning

:32:37.:32:43.

today after all these years for justice. Suffered. -- my honourable

:32:44.:32:55.

friend asked me this year my experience. The one I thought about

:32:56.:33:01.

it, the more the parallels between the two, the contaminated blood

:33:02.:33:06.

scandal and Hillsborough, became clear to me.

:33:07.:33:11.

Both relate to the 1980s in both resulted from appalling negligence

:33:12.:33:19.

by public bodies. But also, in my view, as I will show today, both

:33:20.:33:25.

have been subject to an orchestrated campaign to prevent the truth from

:33:26.:33:31.

being told. It is that failure to give the victims the truth that

:33:32.:33:36.

compounds the injustice and suffering that they have

:33:37.:33:41.

experienced. Here is what I think is the crux of the problem.

:33:42.:33:45.

Contaminated blood has always been viewed through a financial Prism.

:33:46.:33:51.

That, in my view, sits the Government. It keeps the victims in

:33:52.:33:56.

a position of subservience. Forced to beg for scraps of help from the

:33:57.:34:02.

various funds that have been set up. Either way, let me make clear, I am

:34:03.:34:06.

talking about all governments. Not this particular Government, although

:34:07.:34:11.

I am talking about this Government, am talking about all governments. To

:34:12.:34:15.

the stand that the Government now anything much about this scandal,

:34:16.:34:21.

there is a vague sense that it is an argument about money. In my view, it

:34:22.:34:27.

is in the Government's interest to keep it there. They want to do that.

:34:28.:34:33.

Why? Just as with Hillsborough, if the great British bobby knew the

:34:34.:34:37.

real story here, there would be such a wave of public support coming in

:34:38.:34:44.

behind them that the demands for full and fair compensation simply

:34:45.:34:50.

would not be able to be resisted by the Government. -- the great British

:34:51.:34:57.

public. Such as with Hillsborough, when the truth was told, there was a

:34:58.:35:00.

huge groundswell of support and there had to be action. I believe

:35:01.:35:04.

this is why the Government is not what the truth to be told, because

:35:05.:35:08.

it knows that it would face little place to go in answering those

:35:09.:35:14.

calls. I have brought this debate to this House tonight, Madame David is

:35:15.:35:17.

bigger, to try and break through that impasse. -- Madam Deputy

:35:18.:35:24.

Speaker. I want to refocus everybody on giving victims what they have

:35:25.:35:29.

never had. The truth. From what I know, I believe that this scandal

:35:30.:35:37.

and thence to rekindle cover up on an industrial scale. -- amounts to a

:35:38.:35:44.

criminal cover-up. I want to present direct evidence to support that

:35:45.:35:48.

claim. There are hundreds of victims of this scandal who can point to

:35:49.:35:54.

evidence of missing pages from the medical notes. Crucial pages.

:35:55.:36:00.

Crucial pages missing from their medical notes. Of course, the

:36:01.:36:05.

authorities have an excuse in his cases. -- these. They can always say

:36:06.:36:13.

it was human error, they were lost, when they moved office, boxes were

:36:14.:36:19.

lost and misplaced. As implausible as that excuse is, they can get away

:36:20.:36:23.

with it, because how can you prove otherwise? Tonight, I want to focus

:36:24.:36:34.

on a small number of specific cases which, in my view, revealed

:36:35.:36:39.

deliberate, provable acts of cover-up. Which he give way?

:36:40.:36:46.

I'm very grateful and I would like to pay tribute to his outstanding

:36:47.:36:52.

work around the Hillsborough enquiry and what he achieved there. And

:36:53.:36:56.

obviously there are still more to do. I am so grateful on behalf of

:36:57.:37:01.

the APPG, right honourable friend was willing to share his experiences

:37:02.:37:04.

with us in relation to contaminated blood. I want to raise a point with

:37:05.:37:09.

my right honourable friend specifically, which was about the

:37:10.:37:18.

Lord Owen 's request for documents. When he was the Health Minister in

:37:19.:37:21.

the 1970s, he was told by officials that they had been destroyed. And

:37:22.:37:26.

the archer enquiry, which I am sure my right honourable friend will make

:37:27.:37:28.

reference to, found no reason why that should have happened. I know

:37:29.:37:32.

that my right honourable friend will go on to talk about specific cases

:37:33.:37:38.

of documents being lost or doctored in some way, but just from what

:37:39.:37:43.

happened to a Government minister, and this idea of an industrial scale

:37:44.:37:47.

of up, does my right honourable friend think that, actually, what

:37:48.:37:53.

happened there with Lord Owen and what he's about to describe with the

:37:54.:37:58.

particular individuals just shows how deep-seated this cover-up goes?

:37:59.:38:03.

I think that my honourable friend has put her finger on the point.

:38:04.:38:12.

Which is that, with Hillsborough, when we finally got to match up

:38:13.:38:19.

documents held at a local level with those at a national level, the full

:38:20.:38:24.

picture began to emerge. And it is my contention that exactly the same

:38:25.:38:29.

would emerge here. That the direct examples of cover-up I am about to

:38:30.:38:34.

give relating to individual cases would then be put together with what

:38:35.:38:38.

we know about documents held at the national level, or indeed not held,

:38:39.:38:46.

which itself implies wrongdoing. It is the putting together of that

:38:47.:38:50.

picture which, in the end, gives people the truth and allows people

:38:51.:38:54.

to understand how this happened. I will come directly to that point

:38:55.:38:59.

later. Later in my speech. I want to focus on three cases. I highlight

:39:00.:39:04.

these cases not because they are the only ones that I have seen or been

:39:05.:39:12.

sent, I do it because I have met or spoken directly to the individuals

:39:13.:39:17.

concerned, have a high degree of confidence in the facts, and also

:39:18.:39:22.

because I believe these cases are representative of many more. So let

:39:23.:39:30.

me start with the first case. A gentleman who does not want to be

:39:31.:39:37.

named. Who is only named as Stewart, but I do have his full details. I

:39:38.:39:47.

will give way. I think one of the reasons why this has not taken off

:39:48.:39:54.

as a real campaign widely is that victims, understandably, do not want

:39:55.:39:57.

to advertise to those around them what their conditioners. And I pay

:39:58.:40:01.

tribute to those who have talked to Members of Parliament, even on a

:40:02.:40:04.

confidential basis, so that we have ammunition. I think the right

:40:05.:40:09.

honourable gentleman is absolutely correct. There is a stigma related

:40:10.:40:17.

to HIV, appetite is. People do not want to openly talk about it. --

:40:18.:40:27.

hepatitis. Although I have drawn a parallel with Hillsborough, and he

:40:28.:40:32.

was at standing in his support of me with that, there is one major

:40:33.:40:36.

difference. On Hillsborough, the event happened on a day and everyone

:40:37.:40:39.

was watching it and everyone to remember where they wear when the

:40:40.:40:45.

pictures came through. -- can remember. This was a silent scandal

:40:46.:40:49.

that affected people in all parts of the country, all walks of life, not

:40:50.:40:55.

all from the same place. Spread out and maybe not able to organise in

:40:56.:40:58.

the same way that Hillsborough campaigners could organise. That is

:40:59.:41:03.

another reason why, in my view, they have not been able to move things

:41:04.:41:08.

forward. The other reason that the honourable gentleman gave is true as

:41:09.:41:13.

well. I will talk about Stewart. When he was six years old, he was

:41:14.:41:18.

sent to Maidstone Hospital. Sorry, he was sent by Maidstone Hospital

:41:19.:41:25.

for tests to see if he had haemophilia. When he was seven, they

:41:26.:41:31.

wrote back and said all the tests were normal and he did not have a

:41:32.:41:36.

bleeding problem. When he was eight, Stewart attended Maidstone Hospital

:41:37.:41:39.

with a swollen knee. Nothing more. A swollen knee that was not

:41:40.:41:42.

life-threatening and he had no bleeding problem associated with it.

:41:43.:41:49.

But the hospital, Maidstone, with no warning to Stewart or his parents,

:41:50.:41:55.

not all, treated him with 12 transfusions of contaminated blood

:41:56.:42:01.

products over three days. And according to his medical records

:42:02.:42:04.

later, this should not have happened. Maidstone Hospital then,

:42:05.:42:14.

in 1986, unbeknownst to Stewart, wasn't told about it, carried out an

:42:15.:42:22.

HIV and hepatitis test on him. He was never tested for hepatitis C,

:42:23.:42:25.

even though his records show that the test was available at the time.

:42:26.:42:33.

He was never again, tested, in 1989, or call back when other tests became

:42:34.:42:40.

available. Stewart had all of his medical records, except one thing is

:42:41.:42:43.

missing. The batch numbers for the contaminated blood products. He was

:42:44.:42:50.

eventually told that he had an infection for hepatitis C. Listen to

:42:51.:42:56.

this, Madam Deputy to go. January 2013 is when he was told that he was

:42:57.:43:06.

positive for hepatitis C. -- Madam Deputy Speaker. He was also told

:43:07.:43:13.

that it was too long then for him to sue court case, despite the fact

:43:14.:43:20.

that what medical experts had told him was the hospital had been

:43:21.:43:23.

negligent. Let me move to a second case. This case is of a woman called

:43:24.:43:37.

Nicola instant Jones. -- Enston Jones. As a female diagnosed with

:43:38.:43:47.

haemophilia in the 1980s, doctors denied anything was wrong with me

:43:48.:43:50.

and referred to me as having psychological problems. They said

:43:51.:43:54.

nothing was wrong with the treatment that they gave. She said it was not

:43:55.:44:00.

unusual for haemophiliacs growing up then. It was when I was 24, in 1995,

:44:01.:44:08.

that I asked a nurse if I had ever been tested for hepatitis C as my

:44:09.:44:12.

mum had seen the news about haemophiliacs dying from hepatitis.

:44:13.:44:18.

All the symptoms were the same as mine. The nurse laughed and said,

:44:19.:44:22.

you will not have that. Then came back with my medical nods and

:44:23.:44:27.

informed me that I was positive to hepatitis C from a test done in

:44:28.:44:35.

1991. A test I knew nothing about. Like a true haemophiliac, and after

:44:36.:44:39.

spending years of searching for answers, I had suddenly found out

:44:40.:44:41.

why I had suffered health problems since childhood. But, Madam Deputy

:44:42.:44:52.

Speaker, it was only later when Nicola was able to access our

:44:53.:44:58.

medical notes that she found an entry for 1990, which she do to my

:44:59.:45:03.

attention. I have it here now. It says on the notes, discussed

:45:04.:45:08.

hepatitis C. Nicola has told me directly that it never happened and

:45:09.:45:11.

it was never discussed with her in 1990. She found out for the first

:45:12.:45:16.

time in 1995. But the story gets quite a lot worse, Madam Becky --

:45:17.:45:28.

Madam Deputy Speaker. Nicholas said, 19 years later, little did I know

:45:29.:45:31.

that I would be at a police station reporting what I believed to be a

:45:32.:45:34.

criminal act and form of abuse on my own child. Once again, doctors

:45:35.:45:44.

performed tests without consent. Another well-known practice that

:45:45.:45:49.

haemophiliacs are sadly used to. I found out in 2013 at my

:45:50.:45:52.

nine-year-old haemophiliac son had been tested for HIV and hepatitis

:45:53.:45:57.

and no doubt a whole host of other viruses and pathogens, just like I

:45:58.:46:02.

had been when I was younger. Given my daughter has the disorder as

:46:03.:46:05.

well, there is now mired... Dead in my mind that she would have been

:46:06.:46:10.

tested. I found this out dud hand in a letter by chance from another

:46:11.:46:12.

professional asking if my son needed treatment abroad. -- there is no

:46:13.:46:20.

doubt in my mind. It said, this haemophiliac has been tested for HIV

:46:21.:46:24.

and hepatitis, which she is negative to.

:46:25.:46:29.

She had never been told. She had never given consent. Surely this

:46:30.:46:38.

isn't right in this day and age. In my view, that is a criminal act. To

:46:39.:46:44.

test a child without parent's knowledge. Let me come onto the

:46:45.:46:53.

third case, this, actually, is the most troubling of them all. It

:46:54.:47:02.

relates to a gentleman called Kenneth David Bullock, Ken Bullock.

:47:03.:47:09.

Ken was a very high-ranking civilian engineer who worked around the

:47:10.:47:17.

world. In his later career, he spent time advising what was then called

:47:18.:47:22.

the overseas development agency. He was a haemophilia. And, sadly, Ken

:47:23.:47:32.

died in 1998. A very traumatic death, unfortunately. Let me just

:47:33.:47:38.

read from the letter that his widow, Hazel Bullock, sent me. I am so

:47:39.:47:48.

relieved to hear you are still committed to an active enquiry into

:47:49.:47:54.

the contaminated blood tragedy. Between the 15th of November 1983

:47:55.:48:00.

and the 3rd of December 1983, my husband stopped being a haemophilia

:48:01.:48:06.

patient who had been infected with non-A, non-B type hepatitis to being

:48:07.:48:13.

a clinical alcoholic. This accusation continued and escalated,

:48:14.:48:18.

during the next 15 years, completely unknown to him, he was refused a

:48:19.:48:22.

liver transplant in 1998 and left to die still unaware of these appalling

:48:23.:48:31.

accusations. He did not drink alcohol. Mrs Bullock has examined

:48:32.:48:43.

her late husband's medical notes in detail, and again, I have them here

:48:44.:48:51.

in my possession today. An entry from February 1983, on his notes,

:48:52.:48:59.

acute hepatitis, it says. Then another one from March. Non-A, non-B

:49:00.:49:03.

had titres which he probably obtained from cryoprecipitate, the

:49:04.:49:11.

recognised treatment at the time. 1983 again. Exposure to blood

:49:12.:49:16.

products, diagnosis of non-A, non-B was made. However, it would seem at

:49:17.:49:24.

that point, Madam Deputy Speaker, all mention of blood products was to

:49:25.:49:30.

be stopped. Very suddenly. They were never again to be found anywhere in

:49:31.:49:38.

my husband's notes. From the 16th of December 1983 all the hospital

:49:39.:49:42.

records referred only to alcoholic damage to the liver. I have in my

:49:43.:49:48.

possession photocopies of all the following notes. December, 1983,

:49:49.:50:00.

alcohol could be considered. 1994, likes a few beers at weekends. 1995,

:50:01.:50:08.

alcoholic related hepatic dysfunction. 1990 five again,

:50:09.:50:20.

clinical alcoholism. -- 1985 again. 1996, chronic high alcohol

:50:21.:50:25.

consumption. 1998, the year Mr Bullock died, alcohol cirrhosis. Mrs

:50:26.:50:32.

Bullock concludes her letter, my husband died on the 3rd of October

:50:33.:50:38.

1998, at no time during this 15 years should alcohol has been

:50:39.:50:43.

mentioned. My husband's rear and occasional glass of wine was

:50:44.:50:47.

minimal. He never drank beer or spirits. Alcohol was never a part of

:50:48.:50:54.

our lives. And he had his last glass of wine on the 18th of June 1995, my

:50:55.:51:04.

60th birthday. My husband died completely and aware of these

:51:05.:51:08.

accusations. That have shocked family, friends and colleagues.

:51:09.:51:21.

Madam Deputy Speaker, just as the evidence of amended police

:51:22.:51:26.

statements provided the thread that we eventually polled to unravel the

:51:27.:51:31.

Hillsborough cover-up, so I believe the evidence I have just provided

:51:32.:51:36.

must now become the trigger for a wider enquiry into establishing the

:51:37.:51:41.

truth about contaminated blood. There is a very disturbing echo of

:51:42.:51:47.

Hillsborough, is there not, Madam Deputy Speaker? In what I have just

:51:48.:51:52.

said? In that people who are the victims of negligence, by the state,

:51:53.:52:02.

were suddenly the victims of smears perpetrated by those working on

:52:03.:52:05.

behalf of public bodies, particularly smears related to

:52:06.:52:12.

alcohol. To suggest that the disease that afflicted mixed Bullock's liver

:52:13.:52:19.

was self-inflicted. It reminds me, of course, of those front-page

:52:20.:52:22.

newspaper stories that appeared straight after Hillsborough that

:52:23.:52:26.

alleged the Liverpool fans were drunk. It is a time-honoured tactic,

:52:27.:52:30.

deflect the blame from when it should be over to someone else. Now,

:52:31.:52:37.

it is of course possible, that in each of the cases I have mentioned

:52:38.:52:41.

the hospitals and clinicians concerned were acting on an

:52:42.:52:45.

individual basis to prevent their negligent practices being known. But

:52:46.:52:50.

I have to say, I doubt this was the case. My suspicion, as I said to my

:52:51.:52:56.

honourable friend a few moments ago, is that they will be documents held

:52:57.:53:03.

at a national level, even by the Government, regulatory of national

:53:04.:53:05.

bodies that point to a more systematic effort to suppress the

:53:06.:53:12.

truth. I've got to win my possession. So I can save the

:53:13.:53:17.

Minister or the Government time if they suggest there aren't any. There

:53:18.:53:21.

are some. Two documents that I want to put on the official record today,

:53:22.:53:30.

Madam Deputy Speaker. One, a letter, sent from Stanford University's

:53:31.:53:39.

medical Centre in January 1975, to the blood products laboratory, then

:53:40.:53:42.

the UK Government's wholly-owned blood products operation. This

:53:43.:53:49.

letter goes into great lengths, warning about the risk of the new

:53:50.:53:53.

factor eight products that were coming on that to. It said, in

:53:54.:54:01.

relation to one particular products, this gentleman, writing the letter,

:54:02.:54:08.

a Mr Alan, he said of one product, the source of blood is 100% from

:54:09.:54:17.

skid Row. Skid row derelicts, in his words. He is writing to warn the

:54:18.:54:21.

British government about the blood products that are being abused. The

:54:22.:54:30.

second documents is from the Oxford haemophilia Centre, sent in January

:54:31.:54:35.

1982 to all haemophilia Centre directors in England. It is talking

:54:36.:54:43.

about the new products coming on the market, and it says this, after

:54:44.:54:49.

initial production batches may have been tested for infectivity by

:54:50.:54:54.

injecting them into chimpanzees, it is unlikely the manufacturers will

:54:55.:54:58.

be able to guarantee this form of quality control for future batches.

:54:59.:55:02.

It is important to find out by studies inhuman beings to what

:55:03.:55:06.

extent the infectivity of concentrates has been reduced. The

:55:07.:55:12.

most clear-cut way of doing this is administering these concentrates to

:55:13.:55:15.

patients requiring treatment to have not been exposed to large pool

:55:16.:55:22.

concentrates. In other words, let's find out whether these ineffective

:55:23.:55:24.

DCOM in their words come in these products by using them to be buckled

:55:25.:55:30.

patients as guinea pigs. That is what this is saying. Without regard

:55:31.:55:39.

for the consequences. Proof, in my view, of negligence of a very

:55:40.:55:45.

serious kind indeed. And that's what brings me to the point is my

:55:46.:55:49.

honourable friend raised earlier. When we have these documents, the

:55:50.:55:53.

Americans warning in 1975 about blood products derived from blood is

:55:54.:56:01.

taken off convicts on skid row, and then, when we have a letter going

:56:02.:56:06.

out from the haemophilia Centre in Oxford, some seven years later

:56:07.:56:11.

saying that they needed to be a push on trials, give them to patients so

:56:12.:56:16.

we can find out if these products are infectious. My goodness! You

:56:17.:56:20.

soon imagine something might need to be heading here. And that's when you

:56:21.:56:28.

consider the question of a health minister's papers, entire papers, as

:56:29.:56:32.

I understand, to be comprehensively destroyed. And do something they

:56:33.:56:39.

called the ten year rule. I've been a minister. I've never heard of the

:56:40.:56:42.

ten year rule. Have you, Madam Deputy Speaker? In ministers papers

:56:43.:56:50.

destroyed without his consent? It seems to sound alarm bells to me,

:56:51.:56:54.

and to suggest something is seriously amiss, Madam Deputy

:56:55.:56:57.

Speaker. Will my right honourable friend give way? I wondered if my

:56:58.:57:02.

right honourable friend was I shocked as I was to learn that in

:57:03.:57:07.

November 1983 the Health Secretary told parliament that there is no

:57:08.:57:11.

conclusive evidence that aid is transmitted by blood products. Yet

:57:12.:57:16.

months earlier the department was wearing a document that said AIDS

:57:17.:57:19.

was almost certainly transmitted in this way, and the advisory committee

:57:20.:57:26.

on dangerous pathogens told also strong circumstantial evidence that

:57:27.:57:32.

it was blood-borne. It seems, again, there was real issues about what was

:57:33.:57:36.

being told to people, and parliament. And ministers must

:57:37.:57:43.

never, never mislead Parliament, yet clearly, the information being given

:57:44.:57:45.

to parliament back then was not correct.

:57:46.:57:51.

I fear my honourable friend is right, once again. I am aware that

:57:52.:57:56.

Crown immunity was applied to individuals to protect the

:57:57.:58:00.

Government from litigation around this time. I think it does paint the

:58:01.:58:09.

picture, Madam Deputy Speaker, and come you know, this is why we come

:58:10.:58:14.

onto the need to see the papers, well, let's find out. I don't want

:58:15.:58:18.

to stand here and accuse ministers in that government of anything.

:58:19.:58:23.

That's not my purpose. Let's have a look at those papers. Let's see

:58:24.:58:26.

whether or not there was any misleading statement given. What I

:58:27.:58:33.

think we have evidence here in terms of the cases I put before the house

:58:34.:58:38.

today is, number one, people used as guinea pigs. Number two, people

:58:39.:58:44.

given inappropriate treatment, as Stuart was. Number three, tests

:58:45.:58:50.

being done without people's knowledge or consent. Number four,

:58:51.:58:57.

the results of tests, even when they revealed positive results, being

:58:58.:59:02.

withheld for years, decades in some cases from those individuals. It's

:59:03.:59:06.

even been suggested to me that other people, close to those people,

:59:07.:59:11.

Vanguard subsequent infections from people because they didn't know they

:59:12.:59:15.

had taken over you or hepatitis C. They were living their lives and

:59:16.:59:21.

infected other people -- they were HIV-positive or hepatitis C

:59:22.:59:26.

positive, or as we saw in the case of Ken Bullock, the falsification of

:59:27.:59:32.

medical records, smooth and smears to suggest liver disease was

:59:33.:59:34.

self-inflicted. These are criminal acts. Criminal acts. I will give

:59:35.:59:45.

way. Can I pay tribute to him when he was sucked your state for health,

:59:46.:59:49.

because I was in the Department with him at the time. Can I ask him this

:59:50.:59:57.

question, are we saying that the information is immune from the Data

:59:58.:00:00.

Protection Act and the Freedom of Information Act? Has this ever

:00:01.:00:05.

applied? I think people have applied for documents but many have been

:00:06.:00:10.

withheld. I'll come onto this point in a moment. I was a minister in the

:00:11.:00:14.

Department of Health just after the Archer report had come out. And had

:00:15.:00:19.

been responded to by the previous Secretary of State. I came in, and

:00:20.:00:23.

that the instigation of the late Paul Goggins, sought to reopen the

:00:24.:00:32.

whole issue. And received a lot of institutional resistance, if I could

:00:33.:00:37.

put it that way. And yes, I stand here myself out of a sense of guilt.

:00:38.:00:42.

I wish I'd done more over the years. But having pieced it all together, I

:00:43.:00:46.

think the documents that are withheld would fill in some of the

:00:47.:00:49.

gaps that I'm describing today. I will give way. I thank him for

:00:50.:00:55.

giving way. I thank you for the work is done on this issue. The case he

:00:56.:01:03.

describes, the third case he describes, surely is one of

:01:04.:01:08.

defamation. Is it not the case, and would he agree that all families

:01:09.:01:12.

affected, if they haven't already, must access their own medical

:01:13.:01:15.

records or the medical records of family members who have passed away?

:01:16.:01:20.

defamation. The number of people that have said ages are missing,

:01:21.:01:40.

crucial pages are missing, there are so many examples of those. I have

:01:41.:01:48.

put on record things that are provable and criminal and it cannot

:01:49.:01:52.

be left there. This is where the Minister will have to answer this

:01:53.:01:58.

point directly when she responds. I thank my right honourable friend

:01:59.:02:03.

forgiving way. I pay tribute to him and the honourable member for the

:02:04.:02:06.

work that they have done in exposing this.

:02:07.:02:16.

When I had a story from my constituent who lost his wife

:02:17.:02:21.

because of a contaminated blood products that had hepatitis C, I

:02:22.:02:29.

came across as very sinister cover-up and I pay tribute to Mike

:02:30.:02:35.

colleague for exposing it. The whole thing, it is about finance, can we

:02:36.:02:40.

give them a bit more? It has kind of been helpful to the Government

:02:41.:02:43.

because it has never been focusing on the issue that really should be

:02:44.:02:50.

focused on. As I said at the beginning, if the truth were known,

:02:51.:02:54.

the wave of support behind people struggling for the truth would have

:02:55.:02:58.

been massive. The Government would have had nowhere to go, it would

:02:59.:03:02.

have had to have responded. Consequently, people still

:03:03.:03:05.

struggling, like the onward gentleman's constituents. I give way

:03:06.:03:10.

to the honourable gentleman. It seems to me that what he's pointing

:03:11.:03:15.

out three major things. The first is of those still alive who are

:03:16.:03:18.

affected and families need generals held without delay. The second is to

:03:19.:03:23.

have an enquiry into what went wrong all the way through, especially if

:03:24.:03:26.

people have interfered with the preservation of evidence. Whether

:03:27.:03:32.

people are prosecuted is a separate thing, but knowing what happened

:03:33.:03:36.

matters most. But the point that Julie in my mind is that of around

:03:37.:03:44.

1970 or 1971, the difference of blood the nations freely given by

:03:45.:03:48.

the healthy and the point about where the honourable gentleman came

:03:49.:03:57.

from an estate... This should have been passed on as soon as they had

:03:58.:04:03.

any warning at all, from Stamford at anywhere else. That was the direct

:04:04.:04:07.

content of the Stamford letter. I think there was a worry that the NHS

:04:08.:04:12.

was using these products in a completely different context, not

:04:13.:04:15.

understanding the difference between the two systems. That is the

:04:16.:04:19.

Stamford letter. I do not stand Jedinak proclaiming to be an expert

:04:20.:04:23.

on other people's. I am not. What I am doing here is saying what I know

:04:24.:04:27.

to be wrong for the people I have spoken to and then linking it to

:04:28.:04:30.

those documents to say what I believe to be the case. I might not

:04:31.:04:33.

be right, but I think we need to find out whether I am right and that

:04:34.:04:37.

is the point there will be putting to the Government later. I set my

:04:38.:04:40.

will give way. Thank you forgiving way. I was not going to intervene,

:04:41.:04:45.

but this point made by the right honourable member opposite about

:04:46.:04:49.

treatment being needed and generous treatment, generous treatment is not

:04:50.:04:54.

what the victims of this NHS scandal are reading. I have a constituent

:04:55.:05:01.

infected by this scandal as a child at the Manchester Children's

:05:02.:05:05.

Hospital. When he discovered that his cirrhosis meant, if it went

:05:06.:05:10.

untreated, he had a 25% chance of having liver cancer comedy was told

:05:11.:05:13.

he would be denied treatment on the NHS and the treatment he needed to

:05:14.:05:18.

clear the road from his system would cost ?100,000. It was at that point

:05:19.:05:26.

he decided to use the payment he had been made, that was supposed to be

:05:27.:05:31.

some compensation, to try to clear the virus load out of his system.

:05:32.:05:36.

That is the situation people are in, victims and at the moment, and that

:05:37.:05:39.

is the situation my constituent is in. It is a disgrace. They should

:05:40.:05:43.

not be fighting using their own money for their own treatment. It is

:05:44.:05:49.

a total disgrace. Absolutely, Phil, fair compensation. Do not delay. Do

:05:50.:05:55.

it now. Government should do that now. They raised expectations and

:05:56.:05:57.

they should do it and we all supported. I will give way in a

:05:58.:06:12.

moment. Mrs Bullock has been reduced to sending begging letters to the

:06:13.:06:16.

Skipton fund. She is not well herself now. How can that be right?

:06:17.:06:21.

We're making a woman who has lost everything make begging letters. And

:06:22.:06:28.

her husband is no longer there. Her husband was possibly refused a liver

:06:29.:06:31.

transplant because his notes said he was an alcoholic. It is injustice

:06:32.:06:35.

upon injustice here. It is absolutely scandalous. And I hope

:06:36.:06:39.

the houses now understanding why I could not live with myself, as I

:06:40.:06:42.

said at the beginning, if I left this place without telling it

:06:43.:06:46.

directly, what I know to be true. I give way to my right honourable

:06:47.:06:50.

friend. I am very grateful. He has made a very powerful case that there

:06:51.:06:58.

was a systematic cover-up. And by joining together the dots in the way

:06:59.:07:01.

that he does, there is a picture which seems to be emerging and needs

:07:02.:07:07.

to be examined further. But even if he is wrong, and what we are

:07:08.:07:15.

actually confronted with is systemic and ministry at us and medical

:07:16.:07:20.

failures, the argument for immediate compensation for all the people

:07:21.:07:23.

affected is so powerful that the Government do need to look at that

:07:24.:07:30.

ardently. -- urgently. And, if possible, say something urgent Mac

:07:31.:07:35.

sense of what I did today. Absolutely. I could not agree more.

:07:36.:07:39.

It is downright immoral to make them keep begging in the way that they

:07:40.:07:42.

have been forced to do. They raised their hopes and they should deliver

:07:43.:07:47.

on the former premise to's promise, and do what my right honourable

:07:48.:07:51.

friend has just said. In terms of the story that is becoming clear,

:07:52.:07:56.

there is one becoming clear, isn't there? Warnings from the US ignored.

:07:57.:08:01.

He wished to drive on these new products from the haemophilia centre

:08:02.:08:04.

to push them out and find out the results before they know what could

:08:05.:08:10.

happen with them. Problems happened and then there was a situation

:08:11.:08:14.

where, the Government might be exposed to litigation. Let's not

:08:15.:08:18.

have it in the notes of people so that we do not have a story building

:08:19.:08:22.

about how there has been negligence and people might have compensation

:08:23.:08:25.

claims. That is the story I have got. I don't know about anyone else.

:08:26.:08:30.

And some people would say, actually, don't just destroy the notes,

:08:31.:08:33.

falsify them. That is the story. That is why we need to find out

:08:34.:08:39.

whether that is true or not. Because it is my view, Madam Deputy Speaker

:08:40.:08:46.

that these are criminal acts that did not just happen by chance. A

:08:47.:08:49.

major injustice has happened here. When I make a speech tonight, I

:08:50.:08:55.

think of our late, great friend, Paul Goggins, who MS every single

:08:56.:09:00.

day and he did so much to advance the cause of justice of those who

:09:01.:09:07.

suffered. -- who I miss. And his constituents and the promises I have

:09:08.:09:13.

made to them, to act for them in Paul's name. In 2013 debate like

:09:14.:09:19.

this, just before he died, Paul made an impassioned call for, quote, a

:09:20.:09:25.

serious Government backed enquiry with access to all the remaining

:09:26.:09:29.

records and the power to get to the truth of what happened and why. His

:09:30.:09:36.

demand was as undeniable then as it is now. And yet it pains me that in

:09:37.:09:41.

the four years since, this House is not moved forward at all. If this

:09:42.:09:47.

continues to be the case after what I have said tonight, I am afraid

:09:48.:09:50.

that this parliament will be complicit in that cover-up. In reply

:09:51.:09:55.

to my honourable friend's demand for an enquiry, the letter she wrote in

:09:56.:10:00.

October 2006, the Prime Minister said this. The relevant documents

:10:01.:10:04.

have been published on the Department of Health and National

:10:05.:10:11.

Archives website. It is likely that a public enquiry would provide

:10:12.:10:15.

further information. In my view, that is highly debatable statement,

:10:16.:10:19.

Madam Deputy Speaker. And they do not think a Prime Minister who has a

:10:20.:10:25.

good track record in helping secure justice for those to whom it has

:10:26.:10:31.

been denied should have put her name to a letter, probably drafted by the

:10:32.:10:37.

Department of Health, like that. I live in exactly the same thing being

:10:38.:10:42.

said to me by those who oppose the setting up of the Hillsborough

:10:43.:10:46.

Independent panel. Everything is out there. It is already known. That is

:10:47.:10:52.

what they always say. If the Prime Minister is confident in her

:10:53.:10:55.

assertion, and I say this to the Minister, rather than just

:10:56.:11:01.

publishing the documents, the was at the Government has selected as

:11:02.:11:05.

relevant, why not publish all the government-held document so that we

:11:06.:11:08.

can decide whether her claim is true or not? On the basis of the evidence

:11:09.:11:13.

I have presented tonight, I believe it would be quite wrong for the size

:11:14.:11:20.

to resist that call. -- this House. I am not calling for a lengthy

:11:21.:11:25.

public enquiry, to be clear. I am calling for a Hillsborough style

:11:26.:11:29.

disclosure process, overseen by an independent panel which can review

:11:30.:11:33.

all the documents held by Government, NHS and private bodies.

:11:34.:11:38.

And just as with Hillsborough, this panel process should be able to

:11:39.:11:44.

review documents withheld under Security, secrecy protections and

:11:45.:11:53.

make the necessary connections locally and nationally. And then

:11:54.:11:56.

produce a report on the extent to which the disclosure of these

:11:57.:11:58.

documents tells a new story about what has happened here today.

:11:59.:12:05.

Tonight, I issue a direct challenge to all parties in this House,

:12:06.:12:08.

including my own front bench and the SNP. It is to do the right thing and

:12:09.:12:13.

put a commitment in your election manifesto to set up the Silver style

:12:14.:12:18.

enquiry into contaminated blood. -- the Hillsborough style enquiry. It

:12:19.:12:22.

would be the most effective way to get as quickly as possible to the

:12:23.:12:26.

whole truth, the whole story, as it did quite effectively with

:12:27.:12:30.

Hillsborough. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to be clear to the Minister

:12:31.:12:34.

and the House tonight that is the newly elected Government after the

:12:35.:12:37.

general election does not set up the process I described, I will refer my

:12:38.:12:43.

dossier of cases to the police. And I will request a criminal

:12:44.:12:47.

investigation into these shameful acts of cover-up against innocent

:12:48.:12:52.

people. I say to the Minister that the choice is yours. People are

:12:53.:12:56.

asking the already, why don't I just go straight to the police with the

:12:57.:13:01.

evidence I have got? I got them an expiration of the were doing that.

:13:02.:13:05.

It is my view that the individual crimes I have outlined, as part of a

:13:06.:13:09.

more systematic cover-up, can only be understood as part of that. If we

:13:10.:13:14.

developed piecemeal to the police, they could struggle to put together

:13:15.:13:17.

the bigger picture of what lies behind the falsified medical

:13:18.:13:22.

records. That might, in turn, delete truth and justice. However, if the

:13:23.:13:26.

Government will not act, then I believe a police investigation is

:13:27.:13:31.

the correct step. That is what I request, because I cannot keep this

:13:32.:13:35.

information in my possession and not do something with that. As we know,

:13:36.:13:39.

time is not on the victim's side. I will set a deadline on it. If the

:13:40.:13:44.

Government is not set up a Hillsborough style enquiry by the

:13:45.:13:48.

time the House rises for the summer recess, then I will refer my

:13:49.:13:53.

evidence to the police and I will request that investigation. I will

:13:54.:14:01.

give way. I thank my honourable friend forgiving way. He has made an

:14:02.:14:05.

incredibly powerful case and I know that in his final speech here... We

:14:06.:14:12.

discussed it earlier and the entire team media supporters call. -- team

:14:13.:14:21.

here supports his call. I am pleased to hear that and I hope it means a

:14:22.:14:25.

manifesto commitment of the kind I have asked for. With my honourable

:14:26.:14:31.

friend agree with me that there should be a backbench business

:14:32.:14:33.

debate on this issue when Parliament returns before the summer recess, so

:14:34.:14:36.

that backbenchers from all parties can pressure the Government to look

:14:37.:14:42.

at this? And make this play. I will not be here, but I make this play to

:14:43.:14:49.

him and... If he will be written. Don't rule out Labour in Scotland.

:14:50.:14:54.

We are on the way back! I say to people in this House today, people

:14:55.:14:58.

who are candidates who might be coming here, you must act on this

:14:59.:15:01.

information. You cannot leave this with letters. -- where it is. Your

:15:02.:15:09.

conscience tells you you have to do something about it. When the

:15:10.:15:14.

Government ruled out an enquiry into Orgreave, despite the existence of

:15:15.:15:17.

clear evidence of serious wrongdoing by the police, they did so on the

:15:18.:15:23.

basis that, quote, nobody died. I am a -- afraid that threadbare defence

:15:24.:15:29.

will not hold here. People have died. 2000 in all. They have been

:15:30.:15:34.

the victims of both negligence and cover-up. In its heart of hearts,

:15:35.:15:41.

this parliament knows that is true. The question is, what are we going

:15:42.:15:44.

to do about it? I will end with a quote from an e-mail I have received

:15:45.:15:47.

from another victim, Roger, who became infected with hepatitis C in

:15:48.:15:53.

1978. He only found out by accident when having a hip replacement

:15:54.:15:58.

operation in 1994. This is despite having raised his family in between.

:15:59.:16:06.

His brother, George, died from Aids in 1991.

:16:07.:16:11.

The indifference to the plight of so many, politicians should not be

:16:12.:16:18.

surprised that lost confidence in parliament when candour is not

:16:19.:16:22.

forthcoming and they are seen as interested in only preserving their

:16:23.:16:26.

own position and the status quo. I suspect Roger speaks for every

:16:27.:16:29.

single family affected by this scandal. It's been an enormous

:16:30.:16:34.

privilege Madam Deputy Speaker for me to serve my constituents in this

:16:35.:16:40.

house and it's with a real sense of sadness that I prepare to leave. But

:16:41.:16:46.

I have to say I have also in my 16 years here had my eyes opened to its

:16:47.:16:53.

shortcomings. The simple fact that following hells bras so many other

:16:54.:16:57.

Justice campaigns have come to me, many of them from the 1970s and

:16:58.:17:05.

1980s. That simple fact tells me this place has not been doing its

:17:06.:17:11.

job properly. Westminster will only begin to solve the political crisis

:17:12.:17:15.

we are living through when in the face of evidence headlines to act

:17:16.:17:19.

fearlessly and swiftly in pursuit of the truth and gives a lot boys to

:17:20.:17:22.

those of our fellow citizens who through no fault of their own have

:17:23.:17:26.

been left in the wilderness. Collectively we have all failed the

:17:27.:17:31.

victims of contaminated blood and I do not exempt myself from this. I

:17:32.:17:37.

wish to apologise to all those affected for coming so late to this

:17:38.:17:42.

issue in this speech tonight and I apologise to you Madam Deputy

:17:43.:17:45.

Speaker for the length of time I have taken in introducing my

:17:46.:17:52.

comments. But in another way I don't actually. I don't, the house should

:17:53.:17:58.

be delayed tonight on this matter. The truth has been delayed for

:17:59.:18:02.

people, the justice has been delayed so this house should be delayed

:18:03.:18:07.

tonight as it hears, as it hears directly what they have been through

:18:08.:18:13.

and I hope we have given a flavour of that tonight. So I say this to

:18:14.:18:18.

members here and those who may come here that it's never too late to do

:18:19.:18:20.

the right thing. 'S no clapping. I am sure the whole house will join

:18:21.:18:43.

me in wishing him very well. Minister Nicola Blackwood. Thank you

:18:44.:18:51.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the right Honourable member

:18:52.:18:56.

for securing this debate, his last in the house, on what is an

:18:57.:19:03.

important issue, not just to him and his constituents but I know is also

:19:04.:19:07.

important to many other members in this house and to their constituents

:19:08.:19:10.

and I would like in particular to pay tribute to the courage of all

:19:11.:19:14.

victims who have allowed their stories to be told today the value

:19:15.:19:19.

of this in reminding us why we are all here and in driving us to find

:19:20.:19:26.

the best solutions to this very difficult issue cannot be

:19:27.:19:28.

overestimated and I think we should all take a moment to remember that.

:19:29.:19:35.

That is exactly why the government has introduced the inflected blood

:19:36.:19:38.

payment scheme alongside the commitment of up to a up to 2020,

:19:39.:19:50.

2021, for all those affected. I am sure the whole house will share my

:19:51.:19:56.

view that nothing can make up for the suffering and loss families have

:19:57.:20:04.

experienced and no financial support can change what has happened to them

:20:05.:20:07.

as the honourable gentleman said. But I hope all of those here will

:20:08.:20:12.

recognise that the support provided is hugely important for those facing

:20:13.:20:16.

medical challenges and is more than any previous administration has

:20:17.:20:21.

provided and recognise it is a measure of how seriously this

:20:22.:20:25.

government takes this issue. I would also like to start by taking a

:20:26.:20:30.

moment to clarify some issues around the consultation because there has

:20:31.:20:35.

been some confusion in recent weeks about it. The consultation response

:20:36.:20:41.

announced on the 13th of July 2016 introduced for the first time an

:20:42.:20:45.

annual payment for all individuals affected with HIV or chronic

:20:46.:20:49.

hepatitis C the NHS supply blood or blood products and the recent

:20:50.:20:53.

consultation which closed on the 17th of April 2017 asked for

:20:54.:20:58.

comments on the special category mechanism. This mechanism will allow

:20:59.:21:02.

those with appetite to see stage one to consider their infection -- those

:21:03.:21:13.

with hepatitis C to apply for the higher annual payment equivalent to

:21:14.:21:15.

annual payment received by we anticipate as serious number of

:21:16.:21:28.

stage one beneficiaries will benefit from this process and the higher

:21:29.:21:32.

annual payment level it will offer those co-infected with HIV and

:21:33.:21:36.

hepatitis C stage one will also be eligible to apply, those who are

:21:37.:21:42.

co-infected with HIV and hepatitis C stage to already receive the higher

:21:43.:21:47.

annual payments are both can saltation does propose those

:21:48.:21:51.

payments not increased 2018 as had originally been set out in the 2016

:21:52.:21:56.

consultation response. The recent consultation also included a

:21:57.:21:59.

question on the type of discretionary support they would

:22:00.:22:02.

find most useful and we remain keen to ensure fairness of support

:22:03.:22:06.

between beneficiaries, work between beneficiaries based on need and

:22:07.:22:11.

individual circumstances. We have had consultation submissions but had

:22:12.:22:14.

to consider those over the period and cannot make decisions until

:22:15.:22:18.

after that. I just wanted to make those points before turning to the

:22:19.:22:23.

right Honourable gentleman's point about the further enquiry. As he

:22:24.:22:27.

will know from a number of previous debates on this issue the government

:22:28.:22:31.

has been clear it does not at this point believe a further enquiry

:22:32.:22:36.

would be beneficial because there have been previous enquiries and I

:22:37.:22:40.

would like to go into a little discussion about why those enquiries

:22:41.:22:50.

were quite useful. Lord Archer of Soundwell and Lord Penrhos have

:22:51.:22:54.

already taken separately undertaken independent enquiries in the last

:22:55.:22:57.

decade and neither found governments of the day to be at fault and did

:22:58.:23:03.

not apportion blame. The pen rose enquiry began in 2009 when he was

:23:04.:23:09.

himself Health Secretary and over the course of the enquiry evidence

:23:10.:23:13.

was taken from nearly 90 days of oral hearings resulting in over

:23:14.:23:18.

13,000 pages of transcripts and in addition 200 witnesses and a other

:23:19.:23:27.

documents taken. I am going to come onto his points in a moment if he

:23:28.:23:30.

does not mind me setting out the context. OK, if he would like to. I

:23:31.:23:36.

just wanted, I accept there have been two enquiries but I don't think

:23:37.:23:44.

it's acceptable for the government 2.2 arch, that was not a government

:23:45.:23:49.

backed enquiry, it did not have access to the government can stand

:23:50.:23:54.

there and use that as an excuse and say we do not need an enquiry

:23:55.:24:00.

because of arch, it was not a government backed enquiry. --

:24:01.:24:06.

archer. That is why I was speaking about pen rose. I will in a moment.

:24:07.:24:15.

Includes an appendix listing witnesses and many statements the

:24:16.:24:21.

enquiry considered and although the Department of Health was not called

:24:22.:24:25.

to provide witnesses to the enquiry it co-operated fully with Lord

:24:26.:24:29.

Penrhos request for documentary evidence and the departmental

:24:30.:24:33.

evidence Lord Penrhos used is referenced in his final report. Lord

:24:34.:24:39.

Penrhos published the report of his enquiry into infections acquired in

:24:40.:24:45.

Scotland the 25th of March 2015 and nothing was withheld, any redacted

:24:46.:24:47.

documents provided to the enquiry where... I don't think it's reliable

:24:48.:25:09.

to turn to Penrose it seems to me there was not a complete picture in

:25:10.:25:14.

Penrose either despite what the Minister is trying to paint, this

:25:15.:25:19.

picture of full disclosure. Of course that was only part of the

:25:20.:25:23.

picture because brother documents have been disclosed, the department

:25:24.:25:26.

has published all relevant information it holds on blood safety

:25:27.:25:31.

in line with the Freedom of Information Act 2000. All papers

:25:32.:25:37.

that are available for the period 1970-85 and mounting to over 5500

:25:38.:25:41.

documents have been published on the Department of Health website as the

:25:42.:25:45.

Prime Minister said in her letter to the right honourable gentleman and

:25:46.:25:49.

in addition over 200 files of documents are available to the

:25:50.:25:54.

public through the National Archives and papers from more than 30 years

:25:55.:26:00.

ago are a matter of public record. All documents up to 1995 are also

:26:01.:26:06.

available in the National archive. I will also, we are also aware of six

:26:07.:26:13.

documents from those published on the Department website which are

:26:14.:26:17.

currently being withheld under the Freedom of Information Act on the

:26:18.:26:20.

grounds that they either contain only personal information and

:26:21.:26:24.

nothing relevant to the issue of blood safety are on the grounds that

:26:25.:26:29.

they hold legally privileged material which still has the

:26:30.:26:33.

potential for future litigation. There are also 206 files containing

:26:34.:26:38.

documents covering the period from 1986-1995 that have been published

:26:39.:26:42.

in the National Archives website and are available to the public. We

:26:43.:26:46.

cannot provide a figure for the number of individual documents which

:26:47.:26:49.

are being withheld from these files but the documents have been withheld

:26:50.:26:53.

the files will hold an indication of this which is visible to the public.

:26:54.:26:57.

So where are the files contain only some information and suitable for

:26:58.:27:02.

publication they will be redacted, yes, sorry. My right honourable

:27:03.:27:10.

friend made a direct comparison between this and the Hillsborough

:27:11.:27:19.

scandal. Following that there was the Taylor report then the Stuart

:27:20.:27:30.

Smith enquiry, and in between all of the coroners inquests. It was not

:27:31.:27:35.

until the process my right honourable friend described, the

:27:36.:27:38.

independent panel which was able to look and in this case would be able

:27:39.:27:43.

to look at all those documents, that the truth finally emerged. The

:27:44.:27:48.

Minister to accept that process as being the best way to get at the

:27:49.:27:53.

truth because she cannot guarantee that everything that has gone on so

:27:54.:28:00.

far has got at the truth. The honourable gentleman makes a good

:28:01.:28:03.

point but what I would say is given the release of government papers

:28:04.:28:08.

that has ready taken place numerous statements made by ministers in both

:28:09.:28:13.

Houses of Parliament on this issue, it does seem hard to understand how

:28:14.:28:18.

an independent panel would add to current knowledge about how

:28:19.:28:21.

infections happened or steps taken to deal with this problem. As with

:28:22.:28:25.

the public enquirer way government bullies at point setting up a panel

:28:26.:28:30.

would detract from the work we are doing. Let me go onto the next

:28:31.:28:39.

paragraph which I think he will want to hear, would detract from the work

:28:40.:28:41.

we are doing to support sufferers and their families without providing

:28:42.:28:43.

any tangible benefit. However I would like to turn to the evidence

:28:44.:28:46.

the honourable member has presented today with a great deal of passion.

:28:47.:28:50.

He will appreciate I have not seen as evidence, it's the past I have

:28:51.:28:54.

heard of it, I have not had chance to give it proper consideration and

:28:55.:28:57.

he will be aware we are entering the pre-election period so I would like

:28:58.:29:03.

to ask him please if you will submit his dossier to the Secretary of

:29:04.:29:07.

State and also the noble Lord O'Shaughnessy who is the responsible

:29:08.:29:11.

minister for this area and if he does indeed have evidence of

:29:12.:29:15.

criminality he should contact the police on those matters. And indeed

:29:16.:29:21.

I would also ask him to, you know, be aware of the Health Secretary has

:29:22.:29:27.

made patient safety, learning from mistakes and transparency key

:29:28.:29:31.

personal priority for him and I am absolutely sure that if his papers

:29:32.:29:35.

hold thee concerning matters that he does he will give them top priority.

:29:36.:29:40.

I do not doubt the sincerity of the right honourable gentleman in

:29:41.:29:45.

raising this issue today. He is a former Health Secretary, who knows

:29:46.:29:49.

very well of this issue as it was lied when he was a Health Secretary

:29:50.:29:54.

and I appreciate his apology to victims today.

:29:55.:30:11.

But I must also add him to recognise the fact we are taking action on

:30:12.:30:16.

this issue, we are trying to get it right for victims on an entirely, on

:30:17.:30:18.

an undeniably difficult and complex issue for victims who have waited

:30:19.:30:21.

far too long for action and I would also ask him to appreciate and to

:30:22.:30:24.

recognise we are doing this with the best of intentions even if he

:30:25.:30:26.

disagrees with the we are doing it and in closing I would also like to

:30:27.:30:29.

offer him, I would also like to offer him my very best wishes for

:30:30.:30:32.

his future, he has left an undeniable, and indelible mark on

:30:33.:30:34.

British politics and I am sure he will have great success in his

:30:35.:30:39.

future wherever that may be. Can I briefly speak in this debate and say

:30:40.:30:43.

the right honourable gentleman has helped the Minister who has rightly

:30:44.:30:49.

said the papers will be considered and can I add to that that I think

:30:50.:30:54.

there are still an number of victims who have unmet costs, I have one in

:30:55.:30:58.

my constituency I am concerned about and I suggest over the 11 election

:30:59.:31:07.

period say it is not just a government-held papers which matter,

:31:08.:31:11.

it's those held in other parts of the health service so if for example

:31:12.:31:14.

in the case of someone who died been told he had been drinking too much

:31:15.:31:18.

when he did not drink seriously at all, that is part of the evidence I

:31:19.:31:20.

think good coming into an enquiry. There are people dying. If this goes

:31:21.:31:29.

on and on and on, and people want some closure on this. People are

:31:30.:31:32.

knowing that they are coming to the end of their lives and they won't

:31:33.:31:37.

get that closure. That's why I believe over the election period,

:31:38.:31:42.

the advisors to ministers, perhaps the Home Office as well, should

:31:43.:31:46.

consider what could be obtained by the kind of call for evidence he has

:31:47.:31:51.

rightly put forward. If he has any other points to make through me,

:31:52.:31:55.

he's very welcome. I'm grateful for the opportunity to do that. I would

:31:56.:32:00.

say, the minister was very kind in the remarks that she made. But I do

:32:01.:32:05.

think the point that maybe was missed when references Archer and

:32:06.:32:11.

Penrose is that I'm called for a different process, a process that

:32:12.:32:14.

takes documents, as my right honourable friend said, documents at

:32:15.:32:17.

a local level and matches them with documents higher up the chain. It's

:32:18.:32:21.

then that you get the jigsaw together to understand why someone

:32:22.:32:25.

was acting in this way in this particular hospital. That's what we

:32:26.:32:29.

were looking for. That was the strength of the Hillsborough

:32:30.:32:33.

Independent Panel that it was able to paint that canvas and put the

:32:34.:32:36.

pieces of the jigsaw together. The point was and I just would want, I

:32:37.:32:42.

will send the evidence to the department, amended police

:32:43.:32:45.

statements was only something that came to light properly just before

:32:46.:32:48.

the 20th anniversary of Hillsborough. What I presented to

:32:49.:32:52.

the House is altered medical records, a fact. We have it. A fact

:32:53.:32:56.

that's been given to me. That is the same trigger in my view that now

:32:57.:33:01.

should be looked into to establish the same point. Actually that is new

:33:02.:33:05.

evidence that the Government now needs to consider to take a new

:33:06.:33:10.

decision in relation to this. He's taken the words out of my mouth and

:33:11.:33:13.

said it better than I could have done. We're all grateful to him. The

:33:14.:33:17.

point is, this scandal should never have happened. When it was start

:33:18.:33:21.

today should have been stopped. When it had been stopped people should

:33:22.:33:25.

have known why it had gone on as long as it did. The right honourable

:33:26.:33:30.

gentleman has done a service - I will give way one last time. I thank

:33:31.:33:33.

the honourable member for giving way. In relation to what inquiries

:33:34.:33:39.

have taken place, the House should not forget that where there was a

:33:40.:33:44.

tribunal of inquiry, namely in Ireland, the Lindsay inquiry found

:33:45.:33:50.

that the state knew of the risks and continued with those risks because

:33:51.:33:53.

that's what other states, like the UK were doing. So is it credible

:33:54.:33:57.

that an inquiry in Ireland could find that the risks were known but

:33:58.:34:02.

carried on with and that a further investigation through a panel such

:34:03.:34:05.

as the honourable member has decided wouldn't come to that same

:34:06.:34:11.

conclusion? I conclude by thanking the right honourable gentleman,

:34:12.:34:14.

thanking his neighbour the honourable lady for Hull who leads

:34:15.:34:17.

the all party group and if I may, thanking my right honourable friend

:34:18.:34:20.

sitting now in front of me who has done so much to make sure that these

:34:21.:34:25.

issues are dealt with both as a backbencher and as a minister.

:34:26.:34:33.

THE I thank the honourable gentleman for

:34:34.:34:44.

giving way. I know that Penrose inquiry is always cast up as having

:34:45.:34:49.

dealt with this issue. The Penrose inquiry was only held in Scotland.

:34:50.:34:53.

They were not able to summon people from the rest of the UK who did not

:34:54.:34:57.

want to attend. Therefore the idea that Penrose has dealt with it as

:34:58.:35:03.

absolutely fellacious. You must have a system where you can summon people

:35:04.:35:06.

to give evidence right across the UK.

:35:07.:35:15.

THE SPEAKER: Order. We have a procedural unusual situation here

:35:16.:35:18.

because of course there is plenty of time for an adjournment debate, when

:35:19.:35:24.

it started as early as this. It's a very serious matter, but members who

:35:25.:35:29.

are now arising to speak gave no indication before the minister spoke

:35:30.:35:35.

that they wished to speak. Now, that does not mean that they will not be

:35:36.:35:41.

permitted to speak, but just because this happens to be the end of a

:35:42.:35:48.

Parliament, an important issue and time is available, doesn't mean that

:35:49.:35:54.

I will ignore the - Mr Durkin, I'm addressing the House! Doesn't mean

:35:55.:36:01.

that I will ignore the normal curtsies of this chamber. Now two

:36:02.:36:07.

people have indicated to me that they wish to say something. They

:36:08.:36:12.

must know they ought to have done so before the minister spoke. It was

:36:13.:36:16.

quite obvious when I was going to call the minister. In these unusual

:36:17.:36:21.

circumstances, I will allow the two members, who have indicated to me

:36:22.:36:26.

that they wish to speak, to speak very briefly now. I don't expect

:36:27.:36:33.

further interventions. I thank you on behalf of my constituent that I

:36:34.:36:37.

just wanted to speak very briefly about. Because the minister did make

:36:38.:36:41.

certain assertions in what she said. I just wanted to give some more

:36:42.:36:46.

information to the House. The main part of the debate has been about

:36:47.:36:51.

the excellent relations that my right honourable friend the member

:36:52.:36:57.

for Lee has made. It does, to understand, and we have referred

:36:58.:37:01.

briefly to the situation of people infected as in many cases as

:37:02.:37:06.

children in this scandal of the NHS. That really we have to keep

:37:07.:37:08.

reflecting on that. They were children. My constituent was a child

:37:09.:37:13.

receiving treatment from the NHS that he needed. I've already talked

:37:14.:37:17.

about my constituent having to pay for his own treatment, having to pay

:37:18.:37:23.

for the drug which he needed to try to clear the hepatitis C virus from

:37:24.:37:29.

his body. But he, the minister referred to the consultation and the

:37:30.:37:35.

move that the ministers have recently made to reform the system

:37:36.:37:39.

and I just wanted this minister to know how this had gone down with my

:37:40.:37:44.

constituent because he tells me that he received a letter summarising the

:37:45.:37:48.

proposed reform of the financial support. For me personally, he says,

:37:49.:37:53.

as someone who has progressed to stage two hepatitis, I will be

:37:54.:37:58.

significantly worse off. In real terms the proposals mean financial

:37:59.:38:01.

support will decrease over time as the annual payment will be no longer

:38:02.:38:06.

index linked. I will even lose the ?500 winter fuel payment I will no

:38:07.:38:13.

longer receive, a prepayment prescription certificate which I use

:38:14.:38:17.

for medication, it is disgraceful that people who were infected as

:38:18.:38:22.

children by the NHS are being treated in this way. My constituent

:38:23.:38:27.

goes on, I'll just refer to this briefly, "I believe the Government

:38:28.:38:33.

is being deliberately punitive and exceedingly cruel in using the

:38:34.:38:37.

affected communities request to reform the various support schemes

:38:38.:38:41.

to actually make cuts to those people who have been infected by

:38:42.:38:44.

contaminated blood given to them by the NHS through no fault of their

:38:45.:38:48.

own." I just wanted to add to what has been a very powerful debate that

:38:49.:38:53.

is the situation and has already been said by honourable and right

:38:54.:38:56.

honourable members, our constituents have no time left. This is the

:38:57.:39:02.

situation they find themselves in, this miserley treatment beggars

:39:03.:39:04.

belief. It's time we did something better.

:39:05.:39:11.

Can I thank you for your courtesy in allowing us to speak. I fully accept

:39:12.:39:15.

that we ought to have spoken before the minister responded. I should say

:39:16.:39:18.

I expected the response to have gone on for longer and perhaps had the

:39:19.:39:22.

opportunity to make a short intervention on that basis. I feel

:39:23.:39:29.

compelled to speak because one of my constituents has been so badly

:39:30.:39:32.

affected by this that it doesn't just affect me, when I see the

:39:33.:39:37.

Government time after time refusing to do the right thing on this,

:39:38.:39:42.

genuinely, it haunts me. None of us come into politics to do the wrong

:39:43.:39:46.

thing. We come here to try and make the country a better place and to

:39:47.:39:50.

give voice for people that have been ignored. People have been ignored

:39:51.:39:54.

for such a long time and time after time, it just feels as though the

:39:55.:40:02.

abuse goes on. I really - fear went through my body when the minister

:40:03.:40:05.

stood to read from the folder and it was clear the minister was

:40:06.:40:10.

determined to go down this cul-de-sac of denial and deferral.

:40:11.:40:15.

Mark my words on this, while there's breath in my body and breath in the

:40:16.:40:20.

body of people on this side of the chamber, this issue will not go

:40:21.:40:26.

away. But more than that, if this isn't resolved, the issue will haunt

:40:27.:40:32.

the minister. THE SPEAKER: The question is that

:40:33.:40:39.

this House do now adjourn. As many of that opinion say aye. The ayes

:40:40.:40:42.

have it. Order. Order. That's the end of the day in the

:40:43.:41:01.

houckz. We will now be going -- in the House of Commons, we will go

:41:02.:41:05.

live over to the House of Lords. You can watch recorded coverage after

:41:06.:41:09.

the Daily Politics later tonight. ... However the Government respects

:41:10.:41:17.

the constitutional relationship with the overseas territories and the

:41:18.:41:20.

Crown dependencies. Legislating for the overseas territories is

:41:21.:41:23.

something that we have only done very rarely and on issues such as

:41:24.:41:28.

the abolition of the death penalty, which raised issues of compliance

:41:29.:41:33.

with human rights obligations, areas for which the UK retains direct

:41:34.:41:40.

responsibility. While tackling this kind of complex criminality and its

:41:41.:41:43.

consequences is extremely serious, there is a clear constitutional

:41:44.:41:46.

difference in the fact that financial services are an area that

:41:47.:41:51.

is devolved to territory governments in the case of the Crown

:41:52.:41:56.

dependencies, the UK has never legislated for them without their

:41:57.:42:00.

consent. It is also likely to lead to the territories with drawing

:42:01.:42:04.

their current level of cooperation, jeopardising the progress made and

:42:05.:42:08.

the spirit of working in partnership that we have fostered with the

:42:09.:42:12.

territories. I hope that noble Lord's will see

:42:13.:42:14.

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