07/09/2017 House of Commons


07/09/2017

Live coverage of the day's proceedings in the House of Commons including the first day of debate on the second reading of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill.


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way and so on. There is always more to be done and the honourable

:00:00.:00:00.

gentleman may well want to arrange for an adjournment debate on that

:00:00.:00:08.

subject. Statement, the Minister of State for Europe and the Americas.

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Minister Sir Alan Duncan. I'm very grateful to you for this opportunity

:00:14.:00:17.

to make a statement on hurricane Irma, which is already affecting and

:00:18.:00:21.

is said to further Fed Caribbean islands and the south-east United

:00:22.:00:25.

States with devastating effect. Much as I appreciate the wish of a house

:00:26.:00:31.

to move on to the second reading of the EU Withdrawal Bill, I'm sure

:00:32.:00:34.

everyone appreciates the importance of informing the House about the

:00:35.:00:38.

latest position on this unfolding catastrophe. As with any Hurricane

:00:39.:00:46.

Fly -- hurricane, no one can be sure of the effect until it has become

:00:47.:00:56.

clear but it's force meant about planning was put into the high state

:00:57.:01:01.

of readiness to days ago. The crisis centre has two important functions,

:01:02.:01:05.

one is to organise the fullest possible con Schuler assistance to

:01:06.:01:09.

UK citizens abroad and the other is to monitor the part of a hurricane

:01:10.:01:13.

and coordinate every conceivable UK response, in particular to those

:01:14.:01:18.

British territories affected. Mr Speaker, Hurricane Irma, having

:01:19.:01:21.

reached category five, the highest possible category, hit three British

:01:22.:01:25.

overseas territories yesterday. Anguilla, Montserrat and the British

:01:26.:01:31.

Virgin Islands. Today, we expect the hurricane to affect the further UK

:01:32.:01:35.

territory, the Turks and Caicos Islands. The hurricane yesterday

:01:36.:01:40.

also caused damage in independent Commonwealth countries of Antigua

:01:41.:01:43.

and Barbuda and St Kitts and Nevis and we expect to affect the

:01:44.:01:46.

Dominican Republic, Haiti and the Bahamas today. It will most likely

:01:47.:01:53.

affect Cuba and south-eastern Florida tomorrow. The hurricane is

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heading westwards and Remain strong. We have an initial assessment of the

:01:59.:02:02.

severity of the damage it has caused and I will outline for the House

:02:03.:02:05.

what we know so far. Montserrat was swiped by the hurricane yesterday,

:02:06.:02:13.

but our initial assessment is relatively positive. Fortunately,

:02:14.:02:16.

the damage is not as severe as first thought. However, in contrast,

:02:17.:02:23.

Anguilla received the hurricane's full blast. The initial assessment

:02:24.:02:27.

is that the damage has been severe and in places critical. We expect

:02:28.:02:31.

further reports to make clear the full nature of the devastation and

:02:32.:02:35.

at the moment, Anguilla's port and airport remained close. The British

:02:36.:02:40.

Virgin Islands were also not spared the hurricane's full force when it

:02:41.:02:46.

passed through yesterday morning. Our initial assessment is all severe

:02:47.:02:51.

damage and we expect the islands will need extensive humanitarian

:02:52.:02:53.

assistance, which we will of course provide. The hurricane is expected

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to hit another British overseas Territory later today. The Turks and

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Caicos Islands lie in the hurricane's predicted path and

:03:04.:03:06.

officials in London and the territories are working intensively

:03:07.:03:08.

on disaster preparedness and response. They are also liaising

:03:09.:03:13.

with their counterparts in the Cayman Islands for assistance. The

:03:14.:03:18.

French and Dutch territories of Guadeloupe and St Martin have also

:03:19.:03:23.

been hit and the initial assessments ar of widespread damage. But the

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more detailed assessment continues. No British nationals have yet

:03:30.:03:32.

contacted us to ask for assistance from these islands. Two Commonwealth

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realms were affected by Hurricane Irma yesterday. Antigua and

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Barbuda's less populated island Barbuda was most severely affected.

:03:46.:03:49.

Antigua and St Kitts and Nevis were less badly affected than many had

:03:50.:03:54.

feared, with only minor damage. We expect the hurricane will affect the

:03:55.:03:58.

Dominican Republic and Haiti today. It will sweep on through the

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south-east of the Bahamas later and tomorrow is predicted to hit Cuba

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and southern Florida. Mr Speaker, Mr Deputy Speaker, officials in London

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and the territories have been working throughout the day and night

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to assess and quantify the needs of our territories and to coordinate

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across Government response. The officials in London are maintaining

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contact, although that is sometimes difficult, with governors' offices

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in the territories. The governors teams are themselves working closely

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with the territory's governments to respond to the crisis. The Royal

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Mail ship Royal Fleet auxiliary mounts Bay is already in the

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Caribbean and should reach the affected territories today. The ship

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carries Royal Marines and army engineers and her primary task is

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the protection of our overseas territories. She is loaded with a

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range of equipment, vehicles, tense, stores and hydraulics vehicles

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specifically intended to respond to disasters like this. We stand ready

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to charter flights to deliver additional supplies as appropriate.

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Mr Deputy Speaker, I spoke last night in London representatives of

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the British Virgin Islands and I was in our crisis centre yesterday

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afternoon and again last night and have been based there this morning.

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Add 8:45am last night, the Foreign Secretary spoke to Anguilla's cheap

:05:25.:05:31.

Victor Banks but were unable to contact the premiere of the British

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Virgin Islands last night but Lord Ahmed has been in touch with the

:05:34.:05:38.

governor this morning. We will work in support of the overseas

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territories to support the best possible assessment of their

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immediate and longer-term needs. To that end, my right honourable friend

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the Secretary of State for Defence will chair a meeting of COBRA at 2pm

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today. Our priority is to support the territories' governments in

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meeting their immediate humanitarian and security needs, including

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shelter, water and accommodation. We have for UK aid humanitarian experts

:06:07.:06:09.

in the region who are helping to coordinate the response. We will

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assess with the territories' governments their long-term

:06:16.:06:17.

reconstruction requirements, as we have done in the past. And as the

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House will appreciate, the relationship between overseas

:06:22.:06:23.

territories and their parent countries differs. Whilst French

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territories are directly governed, that is not the case with our

:06:29.:06:32.

overseas territories. While this means that our responses will of

:06:33.:06:36.

course be different, we will seek to achieve the same objectives and are

:06:37.:06:41.

taking immediate steps to do so. The Prime Minister called Erdogan on

:06:42.:06:44.

this morning to discuss our respective responses to Hurricane

:06:45.:06:50.

Irma. They agreed the devastation it had route was terrible, with

:06:51.:06:53.

unconfirmed reports emerging of a number of fatalities. Mr Deputy

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Speaker, the Prime Minister updated the French president on our

:07:00.:07:03.

response, noting that DFID humanitarian advisers had already

:07:04.:07:09.

deployed to the region to provide damage assessments and humanitarian

:07:10.:07:12.

support and that our FA mounts Bay was already nearly area. They agreed

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to co-operate closely, including with the Dutch, to understand the

:07:20.:07:24.

extent of the damage and coordinate relief efforts. Mr Deputy Speaker,

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we will all do our utmost to help those affected and I undertake to

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keep the House updated as required. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I

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thank the Minister for his statement and allowing me to see the statement

:07:44.:07:49.

prior. May I start by associating myself with the minister's remarks

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in sending the deepest sympathies of this House to the people whose lives

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and livelihoods have been lost due to the devastation caused by

:07:58.:08:01.

Hurricane Irma. Many thousands of British tourists visit the Caribbean

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every year for their holidays and I'd like to ask, what is the

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Government's estimate of the number of UK nationals currently in the

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countries that have been hit by Hurricane Irma or are likely to be

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affected? And what requests for consular assistance as the Foreign

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Office received from British National is in the countries

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affected? And also, what assistance is the Government ready to provide

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in response to such requests? What efforts are the Government making to

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communicate with British Nationals across the region to make sure they

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know what help is available to them? And, of course, holiday-makers are

:08:47.:08:49.

by no means the only people who will have been affected. The damage for

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those who live in the region will be both profound and lasting,

:08:55.:08:57.

particularly with the effect on the tourism industry. Many of these

:08:58.:09:03.

people may also be British, given the number of UK overseas

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territories in the Caribbean. The Minister has given us the

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Government's initial assessment of the impact of Hurricane Irma on

:09:12.:09:16.

overseas territories such as Anguilla, Montserrat, Turks and

:09:17.:09:19.

Caicos and the British Virgin Islands, but I would like to ask

:09:20.:09:24.

what discussions has the Minister had or intends to have with the

:09:25.:09:28.

governments of these territories about the effects of the Hurricane

:09:29.:09:34.

Fly -- the hurricane and the with the governments of Antigua and

:09:35.:09:38.

Barbuda, which have also been affected? And what efforts are the

:09:39.:09:41.

Government making to work with the authorities in these areas on their

:09:42.:09:45.

reconstruction plans? I would also like to ask what reassurances he can

:09:46.:09:52.

give that the UK stands ready to provide not only the immediate

:09:53.:09:55.

humanitarian and security relief that is needed so urgently, but also

:09:56.:10:01.

the sustained commitment to reconstruction which will be so

:10:02.:10:07.

important in the longer term? And, finally, I am sure that the Minister

:10:08.:10:10.

will commit to providing regular updates to the House on the progress

:10:11.:10:15.

of reconstruction efforts and particularly on what steps this

:10:16.:10:18.

Government is taking to assist with those efforts and also I am

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confident that they will update the House following the COBRA meeting to

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be held this afternoon. Very grateful for the honourable lady

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both for what she said and the tone in which she said it, because I

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think this House will want to send out a united message of concern and

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all want to do the very best for those who have been in many cases

:10:41.:10:43.

devastated by the ferocity of this hurricane. On the question of

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tourists, many of course will have left because there was some notice

:10:49.:10:51.

that this was likely to come and it's not actually peak season, so we

:10:52.:10:57.

have not yet had any direct individual requests for conscious

:10:58.:11:02.

assistance, but I think we all have concerned that beneath the rubble,

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in some cases, there will be cases which will require our urgent

:11:06.:11:12.

personal response. Our focus, I can tell the House, is of course not

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just on tourists, it's on everybody. We really have complete overall

:11:18.:11:21.

concern, particularly for our overseas territories, which are

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affected, and to that end, we have ?12 million immediately available

:11:29.:11:30.

through our rapid response mechanism for disaster relief fund recovery

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and with me in the House is the Secretary of State for International

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Development, who, like the Foreign Office, are on full alert and doing

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their utmost with a great wealth of expertise to deploy on this and I

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can speak not only as Foreign Minister, but someone who in past

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has also been a DFID Minister. So we of course will in the long term

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always meet our full legal obligations under the overseas

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development act to our overseas territories, but can I assure the

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House that we are pulling out all the stops to make sure that we can

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do our utmost to bring urgent assistance once we, with the

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professionalism DFID has, does the assessment to make sure we know who

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are in greatest need and then we can use our adeptness and flexibility

:12:24.:12:27.

urgently to address those who most need our help.

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Can I thank him for his statement, and the comprehensive nature of the

:12:31.:12:37.

response we appear to be preparing, and the undertaking that we will

:12:38.:12:42.

provide all necessary immediate humanitarian assistance. Can I

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welcome the fact he has spoken to the London representatives of the

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BVI, and would he confirmed he would be happy to act as representative

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for a London to the president of Anguilla, so she can be kept

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updated. The overseas territory of Anguilla does not receive direct aid

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from DFI D, only from the European Union, and can I assume the ?12

:13:17.:13:19.

million means we are equally committed to the long-term recovery

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and reconstruction of Anguilla as we are to the immediate humanitarian

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need. We are endeavouring to contact everyone, and contact in some cases

:13:31.:13:38.

is quite difficult. It is always a distinction between DFID funding,

:13:39.:13:43.

which is eligible and which is not, but we will reassure as much as we

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can to give the help we would like to give wherever we find the need is

:13:48.:13:55.

severe. So, as my honourable friend requests, we will focus on all help.

:13:56.:14:04.

We have dealt with many hurricanes and typhoons in the region. Indeed,

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four years ago, I give assistance as the Minister to Saint Lucia and

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Saint Vincent, who had all the bridges swept away, but it was

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because we had professionalism to assess the damage that we knew how

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best to respond to it. Our response is flexible, and again I think that

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reflects the competence of DFID. Thank you. I am grateful of today's

:14:33.:14:38.

statement. There is no doubt that the devastation across the Caribbean

:14:39.:14:43.

is grave and a tragedy. Our thoughts and wishes go out to those assessing

:14:44.:14:54.

the damage, and to those who have already been hit, Anguilla, and St

:14:55.:15:03.

Lucia, and Barbara, which the Prime Minister says is totally demolished

:15:04.:15:08.

and nearly uninhabitable. We would encourage the secretary to send as

:15:09.:15:15.

much urgent aid as possible to them. The prospect of it hitting locals

:15:16.:15:23.

who have already been hit amid the devastation is unthinkable. There is

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an increasing precedence of hurricanes. In some areas, there

:15:31.:15:39.

have been three, and I quote, these have been described as the new

:15:40.:15:46.

normal. We must put action on this as a priority. A representative from

:15:47.:15:56.

Anguilla told the BBC, climate change is real, in the Caribbean we

:15:57.:16:00.

are dealing with the consequences of climate change, but it is

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unfortunate there are some who see this differently. Will the

:16:05.:16:09.

government express the solidarity with those affected, particularly

:16:10.:16:13.

those on Barbuda, in association with the Prime Minister. As part of

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the UK's much vaunted relationship with the US, what pressure is being

:16:26.:16:32.

put on Donald Trump to be part of the solution and not the problem? --

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the problem, regarding the Paris climate agreement? There is no

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greater incidence of severe weather in many parts of the world. But I

:16:46.:16:49.

hope he will allow me to confine myself to the urgent nature of the

:16:50.:16:54.

response to people in desperate need than to engage today in a debate on

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the broader issues. Our priority is primarily to overseas territories,

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but not confined to them. Thus we will be focusing on the British

:17:06.:17:13.

Virgin Islands, Anguilla, and the Turks and cake silence, and that is

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why the crisis centre and the Foreign Office and DFID are joining

:17:19.:17:28.

to deal with this, to make sure help is rapid. Clearly this is a

:17:29.:17:39.

devastating situation, but it is unfolding. Gucci assure us that he

:17:40.:17:52.

will keep us updated on this? I can tell the House this comes in phases.

:17:53.:18:01.

You have to start with the urgent cases of injury, homelessness, the

:18:02.:18:04.

need for food and water, then there is the important process of the

:18:05.:18:09.

follow-up, to make sure that infrastructure and reconstruction

:18:10.:18:12.

are properly planned for and considered. I spoke to a student

:18:13.:18:23.

from Anguilla who has arrived today in Chesterfield. He has laid out the

:18:24.:18:27.

skill of the devastation in Anguilla, it is quite unlike

:18:28.:18:30.

anything they have seen before. The Minister was at pains to explain the

:18:31.:18:33.

difference between our relationship and that of the French government

:18:34.:18:38.

with the overseas territory. If he can make the same objectives they

:18:39.:18:42.

have set out, he will know that we need a great deal greater resource.

:18:43.:18:52.

Will he lay out what resources we will be able to Bashar will he lay

:18:53.:19:04.

out what we can do to help the schools, hospitals, prisons, the

:19:05.:19:06.

devastated infrastructure they need to get back on their feet? I

:19:07.:19:17.

understand what he's saying regarding Anguilla, because people

:19:18.:19:20.

in the media are comparing our response to that of the French. I

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hope I can give him genuine reassurance on this. We are well

:19:28.:19:30.

practised in emergency response, and we Place Royal auxiliary vessel in

:19:31.:19:40.

the area every year in anticipation of this. This one has been

:19:41.:19:46.

particularly severe, but the reason for having this auxiliary vessel is

:19:47.:19:49.

that you do not trap response resources on an island which might

:19:50.:19:56.

more importantly be needed in a neighbouring island. Sodhi auxiliary

:19:57.:20:04.

vessel has flexibility, the ability to make water. It crucially has a

:20:05.:20:15.

helicopter, which means people can be reached very quickly. The Royal

:20:16.:20:19.

auxiliary vessel is a fantastic resource which we should be very

:20:20.:20:24.

proud of. It has Marines, military engineers, supplies, and it can

:20:25.:20:32.

deploy flexibly relating to the devastating path of a hurricane. You

:20:33.:20:36.

never know until it has happened where the need is greatest. We can

:20:37.:20:44.

supplement this initial urgent response with other belief flights

:20:45.:20:52.

supported by DFID out of the disaster relief funding we have, and

:20:53.:20:56.

over time the House will see that our response will prove effective

:20:57.:20:59.

and good for the people we are there to look after. My thoughts go out to

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people I worked with quite closely, and have been trying to contact

:21:09.:21:16.

them. Does this not highlight a conundrum that 1's overseas

:21:17.:21:19.

territories have preferential treatment on the DFID budget, it is

:21:20.:21:30.

not recognised what real risks small island states have, and how can he

:21:31.:21:36.

use his time with the Foreign Office to make sure this conundrum is

:21:37.:21:47.

addressed? Can I acknowledge his service as a Foreign Office minister

:21:48.:21:53.

with his great knowledge of this field. He is asking me to explain or

:21:54.:21:59.

give a thesis on what one might call the border conundrum, we're overseas

:22:00.:22:05.

development assistance funding applies in some cases but not in

:22:06.:22:08.

others, but when it comes to hurricanes and typhoons, the

:22:09.:22:12.

argument may well be that we wish we had spent money in advance and that

:22:13.:22:17.

kind of thing. Thought will be given on this, but DFID will do the utmost

:22:18.:22:21.

it can to make sure we address meet work -- addressed the need wherever

:22:22.:22:30.

it is needed. If hurricane hardly happened 25 years ago, an MIT

:22:31.:22:34.

professor states it would have been an event which happens once in 2000

:22:35.:22:39.

years. Now we have had a Kenama, which has appalling loss of life and

:22:40.:22:42.

deadly floods. -- Hurricane Irma. What are we doing

:22:43.:23:02.

to get the help back on track? It is urgent and we are failing. The main

:23:03.:23:11.

focus is on emergency relief. As part of DFID programmes, that is

:23:12.:23:14.

assistance to make sure flooding can be reduced, and infrastructure can

:23:15.:23:23.

hold up, so I know that the advanced work to which she refers is deeply

:23:24.:23:27.

entrenched in many of the programmes across the world on which DFID

:23:28.:23:37.

spends money. The Foreign Office crisis centre and the Department for

:23:38.:23:39.

International Development have done us proud by springing into action,

:23:40.:23:43.

and I welcome the ?12 million fund he mentioned. However, the

:23:44.:23:48.

devastation caused by the hurricane will be exacerbated by another one,

:23:49.:23:54.

Hurricane Jose, and I wondered if they have taken into account what

:23:55.:24:00.

further damage Hurricane Jose could create. I have been concentrating

:24:01.:24:08.

very much on Hurricane Irma, but I will immediately go and see what I

:24:09.:24:14.

should know about Hurricane Jose. The serious point is that the

:24:15.:24:20.

government wanted to come to the House at the earliest opportunity to

:24:21.:24:24.

let the House know what we know, to share a very openly and

:24:25.:24:30.

transparently clear picture of what we had prepared and what we wish to

:24:31.:24:34.

do, and what I said earlier, I am sure we will update the House in due

:24:35.:24:42.

course to explain what we have done subsequently. As someone who was

:24:43.:24:53.

involved with aid to Montserrat, what damage has actually been done

:24:54.:24:59.

to it? I notice he says it was swiped by the hurricane, but I do

:25:00.:25:02.

not know what that means. Secondly, there was an interesting programme

:25:03.:25:13.

on BBC science last night, and preparing to go to Mars. Given that

:25:14.:25:21.

we are preparing to go, as, why is it we cannot predict hurricanes much

:25:22.:25:29.

sooner before the hit? You may not be able to answer that, but I think

:25:30.:25:34.

it is an interesting question. She will forgive me if I focus more on

:25:35.:25:41.

Montserrat than on Mars today. I am very familiar with Montserrat, which

:25:42.:25:45.

had its own problem when it had its volcanic eruption many years ago.

:25:46.:25:51.

The damage assessment we had was fortunately that Montserrat has not

:25:52.:25:57.

been severely hit. The hurricane passed over did not cause the

:25:58.:26:01.

widespread disruption or demolition that we feared. At the moment, our

:26:02.:26:12.

attention is on those countries affected by the hurricane, and quite

:26:13.:26:16.

rightly the government's focus should be on that. But back in 2015,

:26:17.:26:22.

storm Desmond which had an impact in America, subsequently had a huge

:26:23.:26:26.

impact on this country, particularly Carlisle and Cumbria, affecting many

:26:27.:26:30.

lives. While his priority is clearly the Caribbean and those countries

:26:31.:26:38.

that other parts of the government -- could he assure us that other

:26:39.:26:43.

parts of the government will be looking at this? As a sophisticated

:26:44.:26:47.

first world country we always have contingency plans, plans for civil

:26:48.:26:55.

response of that sort, so, I am sure that the answer to my honourable

:26:56.:27:00.

friend is yes. In terms of a specific backlash from this

:27:01.:27:04.

hurricane, I am sure the scientists are working on it very energetically

:27:05.:27:05.

already. Our hearts go out to those affected

:27:06.:27:13.

in particular because some of the very poorest will be those that have

:27:14.:27:17.

lost absolutely everything in this, as so often happens. The rich will

:27:18.:27:21.

rebuild their mansions but the poor will not. He is right to focus on

:27:22.:27:26.

the immediate issues, but if we are to build resilience, because there

:27:27.:27:32.

will be another incident like this, do, for instance, the BBI and Turks

:27:33.:27:37.

and Caicos, do they not have to have a broader tax base in the end? Well,

:27:38.:27:45.

I think, for instance on the Turks and Caicos Islands, which I focused

:27:46.:27:48.

on in great detail when I was a minister, which was pretty well

:27:49.:27:52.

bankrupt and its deficit was growing, yes, part of the set of

:27:53.:27:57.

conditions we set down to them for restoring their finances was to

:27:58.:28:02.

improve their tax base. So I can point to a very positive record of

:28:03.:28:05.

this Government answering exactly the question The Right Honourable

:28:06.:28:09.

gentleman has asked, but also, implicit in his question, is if you

:28:10.:28:12.

are going to reconstruct the devastated island, you got to make

:28:13.:28:16.

sure you build things in a way that are going to withstand hurricanes in

:28:17.:28:19.

the future, so when it comes to rivers that are not going to flood,

:28:20.:28:24.

river banks that can contain the water, houses that can withstand a

:28:25.:28:30.

greater ferocity of wind, then in a way, out of this disaster, can come

:28:31.:28:34.

an opportunity for better resilience in the future. I commend my right

:28:35.:28:42.

honourable friend for his statement, which in its comprehensiveness and

:28:43.:28:45.

succinct nurse was a model which other ministers would be well

:28:46.:28:51.

advised to follow. In relation to his last point, we have an absolute

:28:52.:28:56.

duty of course to protect our overseas realms and territories from

:28:57.:29:01.

environmental disasters. Is there a plan to hurricane proof as much as

:29:02.:29:05.

possible key infrastructure in these realms and territories? I like to

:29:06.:29:11.

think that being short and precise is why Hallmark. -- my Hallmark.

:29:12.:29:22.

Again, across many DFID programmes around the world, areas like

:29:23.:29:25.

Bangladesh, which suffer flooding and things like that, building in

:29:26.:29:29.

resilience is a crucial part of the entire philosophy of DFID. So in as

:29:30.:29:34.

much as that can also be incorporated into a country's

:29:35.:29:39.

planning, it must be both welcomed and encouraged, but I point out to

:29:40.:29:42.

the House, we do not govern these countries but we can encourage them

:29:43.:29:47.

to govern themselves in a way which introduces exactly the sort of

:29:48.:29:49.

standards my honourable friend has described. I personally have been

:29:50.:29:58.

shocked to see places I have personally visited absolutely

:29:59.:30:01.

devastated in the region and having been through a hurricane and a

:30:02.:30:05.

tornado myself, I know just how frightening and unpleasant it can

:30:06.:30:07.

be, it is shocking and our thoughts and prayers are with all those

:30:08.:30:11.

people. I welcome very much for the Minister has had to say,

:30:12.:30:15.

particularly about RFA Mounts Bay and the facilities it can provide.

:30:16.:30:20.

Would he look at a second RFA vessel going to the region one or two weeks

:30:21.:30:23.

later with the necessary infrastructure replies and relief

:30:24.:30:27.

efforts, particularly if there is further devastation in the Turks and

:30:28.:30:32.

Caicos? And are our search and rescue personnel on stand-by to

:30:33.:30:35.

provide assistance? They do an excellent job in these crises. On

:30:36.:30:40.

search and rescue, the answer is yes, they will be deployed, and I

:30:41.:30:45.

think the COBRA meeting at 2pm will discuss all of these options, but

:30:46.:30:49.

sitting in a crisis centre this morning and looking at the auxiliary

:30:50.:30:53.

vessel going, one of the great advantages of this vessel, it has a

:30:54.:30:56.

helicopter and one of the issues we are looking at very urgently is to

:30:57.:31:01.

try and get a second helicopter and with supplementary relief flights

:31:02.:31:05.

and possibly a second naval vessel, I am not committing it to it now but

:31:06.:31:08.

in the hope we can do that when we look at the disaster and assess it,

:31:09.:31:12.

then the answer to his questions I hope will be yes but I would just

:31:13.:31:16.

say to the House that we had to appreciate that this is a massive,

:31:17.:31:20.

perhaps unprecedented, natural disaster. We haven't seen a

:31:21.:31:23.

hurricane on the scale in our lifetime and so we are going to have

:31:24.:31:28.

to assess the damage and respond as best we possibly can, knowing that

:31:29.:31:31.

this is, as I would put it, a whopper. I thank my right honourable

:31:32.:31:39.

friend for his statement and the commitment made by the Government to

:31:40.:31:44.

help those suffering. Clearly, the United States of America, in advance

:31:45.:31:47.

of the hurricane, have ordered the evacuation of Key West completely.

:31:48.:31:53.

That wasn't practical on many of the islands that have been devastated.

:31:54.:31:57.

But has there been any request, for example for Barbuda, to be

:31:58.:32:01.

completely evacuated, given that reports suggest it is completely

:32:02.:32:09.

uninhabitable? We are not empowered, Mr Deputy Speaker, to demand the

:32:10.:32:11.

evacuation of countries which are self-governing. But we do our best

:32:12.:32:19.

to make sure that they are fully informed and modern science does

:32:20.:32:24.

help inform people and so compared with perhaps even two decades ago,

:32:25.:32:29.

people have had greater prior notice of the danger than they would have

:32:30.:32:37.

had them. I welcome the minister's commitment to immediate relief, but

:32:38.:32:40.

with respect, I think that today is precisely the day we need to be

:32:41.:32:45.

talking about those broader courses. As we just heard, Gaston Brown, the

:32:46.:32:49.

leader of Antigua and Barbuda is talking about climate change today.

:32:50.:32:53.

Can he reassure the House that we don't have to wait for a hurricane

:32:54.:32:59.

to hit the UK before we have the kind of analysis we need from this

:33:00.:33:02.

Government to tackle climate break down because without that, we will

:33:03.:33:05.

not see the climate leadership his Government likes to claim in theory

:33:06.:33:10.

being shown in practice. I apologise for promoting you, you have

:33:11.:33:15.

miraculously reappeared and I didn't see you out of the corner of my eye.

:33:16.:33:21.

May I just say that I think the honourable lady has deeply misjudged

:33:22.:33:26.

the tone of this House today. We are seeing people in deep and urgent

:33:27.:33:30.

immediate need and we are also leading the world on climate change

:33:31.:33:35.

and she ought to show a bit more urgent and immediate humanity than

:33:36.:33:42.

make the point she has made today. I very much welcomed the statement by

:33:43.:33:46.

the Minister with regards to rescue and relief. The Minister in the

:33:47.:33:52.

statement says that we are en route, the Royal Navy ships, later today.

:33:53.:33:55.

The United States already have carriers there at the moment and

:33:56.:34:00.

choppers and field hospitals. Are we in touch with them to have a joint

:34:01.:34:03.

operation and ensure all that can be done is done? I think one of the

:34:04.:34:10.

positive elements of great international phenomenon like this

:34:11.:34:14.

is that countries do their work together -- a grave international

:34:15.:34:16.

phenomenon. We are working with the French under Dutch and there will be

:34:17.:34:21.

coordination with the Americans that they will be primarily focused on

:34:22.:34:24.

Florida but I would hope that where one country will help another, they

:34:25.:34:27.

will all do so and I'm sure there will be such incidents in the days

:34:28.:34:33.

ahead. I appreciate the speed in which the Minister has come to the

:34:34.:34:36.

House to update us on what is happening. Can he talk briefly about

:34:37.:34:42.

Haiti? All reports say the storm will be travelling to Haiti, so can

:34:43.:34:45.

I ask him what the Foreign Office and DFID will be doing to improve

:34:46.:34:52.

the relief for Haiti when the storm hits because he will appreciate, as

:34:53.:34:56.

will the Secretary of State for DFID, that they have had multiple

:34:57.:34:59.

disasters over a number of years with difficult to rain. Can I ask

:35:00.:35:04.

what he is doing to address that? It is such an enormous hurricane,

:35:05.:35:08.

hitting so much land mass, that there will need to be a massive and

:35:09.:35:12.

comprehensive response. We have deep and extensive experience of going

:35:13.:35:16.

into Haiti following hurricanes in the past, but I say again, our first

:35:17.:35:22.

priority will be to protect and assist British overseas territories.

:35:23.:35:31.

I welcome the minister's statement and his commitment to keep this has

:35:32.:35:34.

updated. Could I invite him once again to publicly thank all of those

:35:35.:35:38.

working at the FCO crisis centre. He has seen their work first hand but

:35:39.:35:43.

so often it goes unseen and in particular, their important work for

:35:44.:35:46.

communication and ensuring British citizens are as safe as possible

:35:47.:35:51.

when they are abroad. I particularly appreciate what my honourable friend

:35:52.:35:56.

has just said and it refers equally to DFID, where officials have been

:35:57.:36:00.

working throughout the night. As I say, I was at the crisis centre

:36:01.:36:06.

yesterday afternoon out and at half past nine last night and again this

:36:07.:36:10.

morning. They have been manning this around the clock, constantly in

:36:11.:36:13.

touch with the overseas territories and other political groupings to

:36:14.:36:17.

make sure that we can be as co-ordinated as we possibly can and,

:36:18.:36:21.

yes, I publicly thank all of them as everyone in this House I am sure

:36:22.:36:30.

would share. I absolutely appreciate the importance of the immediate

:36:31.:36:33.

humanitarian effort and I would hope that at the COBRA meeting this

:36:34.:36:37.

afternoon, the Government does also look at the possible impact of

:36:38.:36:41.

hurricane Jose, which I think is quite alarming, the reports we are

:36:42.:36:52.

receiving but I also urge the issue of climate insurance, I think this

:36:53.:36:55.

is something that is to be on the political agenda. I can give a

:36:56.:36:59.

positive answer to that, within DFID, this is a positive and ongoing

:37:00.:37:04.

policy stream where, again, I think the UK and DFID are in the lead

:37:05.:37:09.

across the world and so I can reassure the honourable laid a very

:37:10.:37:16.

constantly -- lady very confidently. This has been a devastating

:37:17.:37:19.

hurricane, but the islands will recover and past experience tells us

:37:20.:37:22.

that they often recover well before they are perceived to have

:37:23.:37:26.

recovered. Will be therefore be helping to provide assistance and

:37:27.:37:28.

communicating that fact and promoting the islands once they are

:37:29.:37:32.

in a position to communicate that they are open to business again? Let

:37:33.:37:37.

me do my bit now by saying people I hope will still plan to go on

:37:38.:37:41.

holiday to these islands. They will be pieced back together and the

:37:42.:37:43.

worst thing that could happen to them is that they face long-term

:37:44.:37:47.

economic cost because people turn their back on them. I would urge

:37:48.:37:51.

everyone not to turn their back on these islands but to think

:37:52.:37:54.

positively of going there to get some sunshine and to make sure they

:37:55.:38:00.

can share in their recovery. First of all, Minister, I am greatly

:38:01.:38:05.

encouraged by your response, very comprehensive and very substantial

:38:06.:38:10.

and you have set an example for other offices and apartments to

:38:11.:38:13.

follow and I'm sure they will be trying to emulate your efforts. What

:38:14.:38:18.

support is available for the British National is on holiday in the path

:38:19.:38:22.

of Hurricane Irma at this moment, with more hurricanes on the way? I

:38:23.:38:27.

have some constituents who are in rented accommodation there now, so

:38:28.:38:30.

what discussions have taken place with the embassy to get the advice

:38:31.:38:34.

and safety across to those people in those places? I mean, the advice is

:38:35.:38:40.

very clear from public media and also on the Foreign Office website

:38:41.:38:45.

in terms of travel, but we have not yet had any direct requests the

:38:46.:38:48.

consular assistance. But one of the reasons are crisis centre is on full

:38:49.:38:52.

alert is to make sure that if we do so, we can respond to maximum

:38:53.:38:59.

effect. Sir Edward Leigh, point of order. I understand a huge number of

:39:00.:39:06.

people have put in to speak today and equally on Monday. Now,

:39:07.:39:10.

Hurricane Irma is a tragic and deadly event but it is not heading

:39:11.:39:15.

towards our shores but Brexit is and our efforts here will depend whether

:39:16.:39:19.

it is a gentle touch on the cheeks or a storm, so I do urge the

:39:20.:39:23.

Government on Monday to try and desist from bringing statements, so

:39:24.:39:26.

we get a record number of backbenchers and indeed on every

:39:27.:39:29.

occasion to be generous with the House of Commons both with

:39:30.:39:33.

information and time. I agree with that view and it is one I have

:39:34.:39:37.

articulated to the Government Chief Whip and which I understand. He is

:39:38.:39:42.

sympathetic. For my own part, trying to be helpful, I can say that

:39:43.:39:46.

notwithstanding my enthusiasm to serve the housing granting where

:39:47.:39:49.

appropriate urgent questions, colleagues will understand that the

:39:50.:39:52.

bar for urgent questions on Monday will be very high. Mr Kenneth

:39:53.:39:59.

Clarke. Has the chief whip explains you why there is any reason we don't

:40:00.:40:03.

suspend the five o'clock rule this evening? There is no chance of any

:40:04.:40:07.

division taking place on the first day of a two-day debate and it

:40:08.:40:12.

really is rather absurd when we discuss such enormous issues with

:40:13.:40:16.

such long-term significance that members are told they have got to

:40:17.:40:19.

confine their remarks to three minutes or some equivalent? An

:40:20.:40:25.

explanation has been offered to me on that point. I'm sympathetic to

:40:26.:40:28.

what The Right Honourable and learn a gentleman has said and hope

:40:29.:40:32.

account will be taken of it, not least in relation to Monday and

:40:33.:40:36.

although I know The Right Honourable gentleman speaks in support of the

:40:37.:40:39.

rights of all of his colleagues, I hope he is at least moderately

:40:40.:40:44.

mollified to know that there is no question of the Right Honourable and

:40:45.:40:47.

learner gentleman today will probably add any other time in a

:40:48.:40:50.

speech being confined by the chair to a mere three minutes. Check are

:40:51.:40:58.

Muna. Thank you Mr Speaker, I was wondering whether you could give

:40:59.:41:01.

your views and advice with regard to the matter of Big Ben. Many tears

:41:02.:41:07.

have been shared across both sides of this has at the silencing of the

:41:08.:41:14.

bong is Big Ben, but the issue I want to raise is much more serious

:41:15.:41:19.

than that. The company, the construction company that has been

:41:20.:41:22.

awarded the preconstruction and scaffolding contract for Big Ben,

:41:23.:41:28.

Sir Robert McAlpine, we understand has been awarded the main contract

:41:29.:41:34.

to fix those bongs and to do the refit of Big Ben. We had a debate

:41:35.:41:41.

earlier this week in Westminster Hall about blacklisting. Sir Robert

:41:42.:41:46.

McAlpine was one of the firms that founded the consulting Association

:41:47.:41:53.

which was responsible for the blacklisting of over 3,000

:41:54.:41:56.

construction workers, depriving them of a livelihood, facilitating the

:41:57.:42:03.

systematic discrimination and victimisation of those workers. Can

:42:04.:42:10.

I ask you, Mr Speaker, what message you think it sends to the victims of

:42:11.:42:15.

this gross injustice for this House to award a contract to a firm that

:42:16.:42:24.

not only funded the consulting Association, but provided its first

:42:25.:42:29.

chair and another chair of that organisation? I'd also be interested

:42:30.:42:33.

to learn to what extent this is a decision made by the House and to

:42:34.:42:37.

what extent it is a decision made by the Government. I note the Prime

:42:38.:42:40.

Minister is in her place, I think many people would want to hear from

:42:41.:42:41.

her on this as well. I thank him for his point of order.

:42:42.:42:52.

The House will not want a dilation on the matter, suffice it to say

:42:53.:42:56.

that an initial contract was awarded. The contract for the main

:42:57.:43:01.

works has yet, as I understand it, to be awarded. Nevertheless, I take

:43:02.:43:10.

on what he perfectly legitimately and reasonably puts to me. House of

:43:11.:43:19.

Commons commission considered this issue yesterday, and we are seeking

:43:20.:43:23.

reassurance from the company, not least in light of the facts that the

:43:24.:43:31.

honourable gentleman has just articulated, and in light of his

:43:32.:43:36.

remarks in the Westminster Hall debate yesterday, which colleagues

:43:37.:43:44.

and I have studied. As, I believe the honourable gentleman indicated,

:43:45.:43:49.

blacklisting is now illegal. This House will expect any contractor to

:43:50.:43:59.

observe the letter and spirit of the law, and secondly, to conform to the

:44:00.:44:08.

highest standards in such matters. I hope people understand that I cannot

:44:09.:44:12.

be expected to say more than that today, but I am not knocking what he

:44:13.:44:16.

said. It is important, and we are sensitive to it. And we will be

:44:17.:44:24.

conscious in the days ahead of the reputational importance of what he

:44:25.:44:30.

has raised. Perhaps I can leave it there for now. Order, presentation

:44:31.:44:41.

of Bill, Mr David Hanson. House of Lords exclusion of hereditary peers

:44:42.:44:47.

Bill. Second reading what they? Friday 27 April 2018. Thank you.

:44:48.:45:00.

Presentation of Bill? Pensions review of women's arrangements

:45:01.:45:10.

number two, Bill. 27th of April 2018. Thank you. De Klerk will now

:45:11.:45:15.

proceed to lead the orders of the day. European Union Withdrawal Bill,

:45:16.:45:24.

second reading. Thank you. I called to move the second reading that the

:45:25.:45:29.

Secretary of State exiting the European Union, secretary David

:45:30.:45:39.

Davis. I beg to move that the now read a second time. Mr Speaker, when

:45:40.:45:47.

I introduced the European Union Withdrawal Bill earlier this year, I

:45:48.:45:51.

said it was just the beginning of a process to ensure the decision made

:45:52.:45:56.

by the people in June last year is honoured. Today we begin the next

:45:57.:45:59.

step in the historic process of honouring that decision. Simply,

:46:00.:46:04.

this bill is an essential step. While it does not take us out of the

:46:05.:46:08.

European Union, that is a matter for the Article 50 process, it does

:46:09.:46:12.

ensure that on the day we leave, businesses nowhere they stand,

:46:13.:46:19.

workers' rights are upheld and consumers remain protected. This

:46:20.:46:22.

bill is vital to ensuring that as we leave, we do so in an orderly

:46:23.:46:27.

manner. Let me start with a brief summary of the bill before going on

:46:28.:46:31.

to set out key provisions in more depth. The bill is designed to

:46:32.:46:36.

provide maximum possible legal certainty and continuity while

:46:37.:46:38.

restoring control of the United Kingdom. It does this in three broad

:46:39.:46:45.

steps. First it removes from the statute book the key legislation

:46:46.:46:52.

passed by this Parliament in 1972, the European Communities Act. That

:46:53.:46:56.

gave European law supreme status over law made in this country. It is

:46:57.:47:00.

therefore right that it be removed from the statute book on the day the

:47:01.:47:07.

UK leads the European Union, bringing to end the European law

:47:08.:47:13.

over laws made here in the United Kingdom. Second, the bill takes a

:47:14.:47:16.

snapshot of the body of EU law, which currently forms part of the

:47:17.:47:20.

United Kingdom legal system, and ensures it will continue to apply in

:47:21.:47:25.

the United Kingdom after we leave. This is to ensure that wherever

:47:26.:47:29.

possible, the same rules and laws will apply the day after Exeter as

:47:30.:47:37.

they did before. Without this step, a large part falls away when the

:47:38.:47:40.

European Communities Act is repealed. Simply preserving the law

:47:41.:47:55.

is not enough. The ministers will be devolved powers to address the

:47:56.:47:59.

problems which would arise when we leave the European Union. These

:48:00.:48:05.

powers allow ministers to make those changes to ensure the statute book

:48:06.:48:12.

works on day one. This will be a major undertaking across the United

:48:13.:48:18.

Kingdom. I will give way in a moment. Following this, it will be

:48:19.:48:21.

for the United Kingdom legislators to pass laws and to adjudicate them.

:48:22.:48:28.

Mr Speaker, the bill enables us to leave the European Union in the

:48:29.:48:31.

smoothest and most orderly way possible. It is the most significant

:48:32.:48:35.

piece of legislation to be considered for some time and it will

:48:36.:48:40.

be rightly scrutinised line by line on the floor of this House. I stand

:48:41.:48:46.

ready to listen to those who offer improvements of the bill, in the

:48:47.:48:51.

spirit of preparing statute book for withdrawal from the European Union.

:48:52.:48:56.

The right honourable member for St Pancras likes to remind me that I

:48:57.:49:04.

have a dedication to holding the government for the account. I have

:49:05.:49:07.

not changed my views at all. LAUGHTER Let me be clear, this bill

:49:08.:49:14.

does only what is necessary for a smooth exit and to provide

:49:15.:49:17.

stability. Have ever, as I repeatedly said, I

:49:18.:49:22.

welcome and encourage contributions from those who approach the task in

:49:23.:49:25.

good faith and in the spirit of collaboration. We all have a

:49:26.:49:36.

commitment to doing this in the best interest of the United Kingdom. He

:49:37.:49:41.

is opening that she mentioned it gives ministers the power is to

:49:42.:49:46.

change laws, does that include changing laws to devolved

:49:47.:49:51.

administrations? I will come to the detail of that later, and how the

:49:52.:49:57.

process will work. If he will be patient. I thank him for giving way.

:49:58.:50:04.

Will he take this opportunity to confirm that the government will not

:50:05.:50:08.

use this bill to make policy changes? Again, I will detail this

:50:09.:50:17.

later, but there is one exception to this. The primary aim of the bill is

:50:18.:50:21.

to maintain policy as it is now. The only exception is under withdrawal

:50:22.:50:26.

arrangements, which will be time determined and limited, and I will

:50:27.:50:32.

detail that in a second. I give way. George Osborne, in his headline in

:50:33.:50:38.

the Evening Standard last night, referred to the Secretary of State

:50:39.:50:43.

approach as being ruled by decree. Why is this high-handed approach

:50:44.:50:46.

being taken to the practices of this Parliament? I do not read the

:50:47.:50:52.

Evening Standard, I have to tell you!

:50:53.:50:58.

LAUGHTER And it sounds like with good reason.

:50:59.:51:01.

I have to tell them, if I'm going to take lectures on rule by decree, it

:51:02.:51:05.

will not be by the editor of the Evening Standard. One more time. Can

:51:06.:51:15.

he confirmed that if the government wishes to make a change by statutory

:51:16.:51:24.

instrument, that is a process, so it is a synthetic nonsense to suggest

:51:25.:51:26.

this. LAUGHTER He is entirely right, and I

:51:27.:51:32.

will elaborate on that later. The editor of the Evening Standard

:51:33.:51:34.

should know that from his own experience. The key point of this

:51:35.:51:40.

bill is to avoid significant and serious gaps in the statute book.

:51:41.:51:50.

Employees can be clear about their rights, and businesses can be sure

:51:51.:51:57.

about their trade. Workers' rights, they will be enforceable to UK

:51:58.:52:00.

courts, which are remind the world over. The bill provides certainty as

:52:01.:52:06.

to how the law applies after we leave the European Union and ensures

:52:07.:52:09.

individuals and businesses can continue to find redress when

:52:10.:52:14.

problems arise. Without this bill, all of these things are put at risk.

:52:15.:52:21.

The bill must be on the statute book in the time ahead of withdrawal, so

:52:22.:52:25.

the statutory instruments he referred to, that will flow from the

:52:26.:52:32.

bill, can be made in time before Brexit date, we are in position to

:52:33.:52:36.

look at the laws from day one. The bill provides a clear basis for the

:52:37.:52:41.

negotiation of the European Union by ensuring continuity and clarity in

:52:42.:52:45.

the laws, without prejudice to the ongoing negotiations. Without this,

:52:46.:52:50.

a smooth and orderly exit is possible.

:52:51.:53:03.

We cannot negotiate more until we have decided what is happening at

:53:04.:53:13.

exit. Could he confirm that in choosing to not transpose the EU

:53:14.:53:18.

Charter of fundamental rights, that it will have no impact on the actual

:53:19.:53:24.

rights of the British people, they'd interpretation or enforcement in

:53:25.:53:28.

court? I'm going to come to this later, but if she remembers, when

:53:29.:53:33.

the White papers were presented to the House, I did say to my opposite

:53:34.:53:40.

number but if there were any power is missing, to come to the

:53:41.:53:44.

government, tell the House, and we will put that right. I have not had

:53:45.:53:51.

a single comment since on that. I will make some progress and give way

:53:52.:53:54.

later. I am conscious of the points made by the father of the House that

:53:55.:54:01.

we are going to have tight time on this, and I will give way as much as

:54:02.:54:11.

reasonable. Let me know talk through the main provisions. The first

:54:12.:54:18.

clause of the bill, repealed to the European Communities Act on the day

:54:19.:54:20.

we leave the European Union, ending supremacy of EU law on exit they.

:54:21.:54:31.

When Harold Wilson led the debate here in May 1967, on the question of

:54:32.:54:35.

the United Kingdom's entry of the European Community, he said it is

:54:36.:54:39.

important to realise that community law is mainly concerned with

:54:40.:54:43.

industrial and commercial activities with corporate bodies rather than

:54:44.:54:46.

private individuals. By far the greatest part of domestic law would

:54:47.:54:50.

remain unchanged after entry. I think the passage of time has shown

:54:51.:54:54.

he was mistaken. European Union law touches on all aspects of our lives

:54:55.:55:01.

in a far wider way than the draft of the European Communities Act could

:55:02.:55:04.

have envisaged. This means the bill before us today has a difficult

:55:05.:55:09.

task. It must rebuild United Kingdom law in a way that must make sense

:55:10.:55:14.

outside the European Union. To do this, the first step the bill takes

:55:15.:55:18.

is to preserve all domestic law we have made to implement EU

:55:19.:55:22.

obligations. This mainly means preserving thousands of statutory

:55:23.:55:25.

instruments to be made under the European Communities Act with

:55:26.:55:30.

subjects ranging from aeroplane noise to zoo licensing. It also

:55:31.:55:39.

extends to preserving what relates to the European Union. All 12,000

:55:40.:55:52.

regulations will move to UK law on exit they. I have no doubt there is

:55:53.:56:05.

much about EU law that can be improved, and I know that over time

:56:06.:56:08.

this Parliament will look to improve it, but that is not the purpose of

:56:09.:56:22.

this Bill. It simply brings European Union law into UK law to make sure

:56:23.:56:33.

the rules are the same after exit. The bill ensures that any question

:56:34.:56:50.

on the meaning of retained law... The approach maximises stability by

:56:51.:56:53.

ensuring the meaning of the law does not change overnight, and only the

:56:54.:56:56.

Supreme Court and the High Court of Justice should read -- the High

:56:57.:57:02.

Court of judiciary in Scotland should do this. Any other approach

:57:03.:57:11.

would actively cause uncertainty fossilise EU case law for ever.

:57:12.:57:17.

Future decisions of the Court of justice will not end our courts, but

:57:18.:57:22.

courts will have discretion to have regard to those decisions if they

:57:23.:57:29.

find it appropriate to do so, in the same way that our courts might refer

:57:30.:57:33.

to common jurisdiction such as Australia or Canada.

:57:34.:57:50.

Can he explain why we're only getting eight days to discuss this

:57:51.:57:56.

bill in committee, when the bill took us and had 22, and the

:57:57.:57:58.

Maastricht Treaty had 20? I thank him for giving way. Given

:57:59.:58:00.

the scale of the task that the first thing I would say to him

:58:01.:58:18.

is to reference the Lisbon Treaty. It recreated European law on a major

:58:19.:58:23.

basis. This does not do that. This does not aim to change law. This

:58:24.:58:32.

aims to maintain the laws that we currently have and if he sees that

:58:33.:58:36.

as any different, I will... I give way to the honourable gentleman. The

:58:37.:58:42.

trouble with relying on secondary legislation is that secondary

:58:43.:58:46.

legislation is uneventful and only gets 1.5 hours debate. Would it not,

:58:47.:58:52.

in particular in relation to any secondary legislation under section

:58:53.:58:56.

nine of this bill, be sensible to allow a new form of secondary

:58:57.:58:59.

legislation where you can amend and you have substantial debate? Well,

:59:00.:59:06.

in essence, the aim of the bill is to translate European law into UK

:59:07.:59:11.

law and to ensure there are no problems arising from that, which

:59:12.:59:16.

means references to you things we are no longer subordinate to, many

:59:17.:59:24.

of these things will be relatively straightforward and simple. But the

:59:25.:59:27.

point he should look at in the legislation is that it seeks to make

:59:28.:59:33.

the type of legislation, whether it is an affirmative or negative

:59:34.:59:35.

resolution, in proportion to that. If he wants to speak about this

:59:36.:59:39.

further, I will have to talk to him. I will not reinvent the constitution

:59:40.:59:46.

at the dispatch box. I give way. What conclusion should be electric

:59:47.:59:52.

door about respect to democracy about other parties refusing to give

:59:53.:59:58.

this well -- bill a second reading? I am not going to presume ill intent

:59:59.:00:03.

from the start. What I say to everybody in this House is that the

:00:04.:00:11.

electorate will draw their own conclusions on whether this is being

:00:12.:00:14.

addressed in a sensible way to maintain British law in a way which

:00:15.:00:22.

will enable that to happen in good time on our withdrawal from the

:00:23.:00:26.

European Union, which is happening on a date, or whether it is being

:00:27.:00:31.

used as a cynical exercise. It is not for us to decide on that, it is

:00:32.:00:36.

a decision for the electorate to make and make it they will. I want

:00:37.:00:40.

to make some way. Overall then, the Bill provides for a very significant

:00:41.:00:49.

continuity in law but there are some elements that simply... In a moment.

:00:50.:00:53.

In a moment. That would simply not make sense if they remain on the UK

:00:54.:00:59.

Statute book once we have left the EU and in the years and decades to

:01:00.:01:03.

come. It would not make sense, for example, for the bill to preserve

:01:04.:01:07.

the supremacy of EU law or to make EU law supreme over future

:01:08.:01:10.

legislation passed by this Parliament. Laws passed in these two

:01:11.:01:13.

houses after exit they will take precedence over retained EU law. Mr

:01:14.:01:18.

Speaker, we also do not believe it would make sense to retain the

:01:19.:01:21.

Charter of fundamental rights. The charter only applies to the member

:01:22.:01:28.

states was acting within the scope of EU law. We will not be a member

:01:29.:01:33.

state Noble will be acting within the scope of EU law once we leave

:01:34.:01:39.

the European Union. As I said to the House when I passed the bill, it is

:01:40.:01:46.

not and never was the source of those rights. Those rights have

:01:47.:01:50.

their origins elsewhere in domestic law or relate to international

:01:51.:01:54.

treaties are obligations which the UK remains party to, for example,

:01:55.:01:59.

the easy hate jar. Let me be clear, the absence to the charter will not

:02:00.:02:05.

affect the substantive rights and I have said before that if anyone in

:02:06.:02:12.

this House find the substantive right that is not carried forward

:02:13.:02:16.

into UK law they should say so and we will deal with it. Into several

:02:17.:02:22.

months since I said that, in the several months since I said that, no

:02:23.:02:26.

one has yet brought to my attention something we have missed. It may be

:02:27.:02:30.

that that will happen in the next two minutes but I will start with

:02:31.:02:35.

the honourable lady and then I will come to you. I thank the Secretary

:02:36.:02:38.

of State for giving way. He will know that the key issue is not what

:02:39.:02:42.

ministers say the aim of the bill is but what the actual powers are that

:02:43.:02:46.

are contained within it, so can he tell the House what safeguards they

:02:47.:02:51.

are anywhere in the bill, in statute, that would prevent

:02:52.:02:55.

ministers in future using Clause seven or claw nine or Clause 17 to

:02:56.:03:01.

completely rewrite extradition policy and the demise of the

:03:02.:03:05.

European arrest warrant without coming back to parliamentary primary

:03:06.:03:10.

legislation? I will come back to the details in a moment but there are a

:03:11.:03:16.

number of points including that we cannot impinge on the Human Rights

:03:17.:03:18.

Act, which goes straight to the point she raised. I understand his

:03:19.:03:24.

point about the charter because I agree with him that general

:03:25.:03:28.

principles in the charter should be identical, although that does

:03:29.:03:34.

suggest one does raise the question as to why the charter should go in

:03:35.:03:39.

those circumstances, but it says quite clearly in schedule one that

:03:40.:03:42.

after we have done this, there was no right of action in domestic law

:03:43.:03:47.

on or after exit day based on a failure to comply with any of the

:03:48.:03:51.

general principles of EU law. You must agree that that means that the

:03:52.:03:56.

right of the individual to challenge on the basis of the principle of EU

:03:57.:04:03.

law imported into our law by this act will no longer be possible. In

:04:04.:04:09.

our own courts, forget about the European Court of Justice, in our

:04:10.:04:12.

courts, and that seems to me to be the munition in the rights of the

:04:13.:04:18.

individual and corporate entities? Well, I am afraid we are going to

:04:19.:04:23.

have my old and their right honourable friend, a difference of

:04:24.:04:27.

opinion. We will put in the library a letter on this specific issue

:04:28.:04:31.

which we have already said but, but, before we go there, the simple truth

:04:32.:04:37.

is that today, these laws, these rights, I should say, and he should

:04:38.:04:42.

know as well as anybody, these rights originate from a whole series

:04:43.:04:49.

of origins. Some from the British Government, from the EU, from the

:04:50.:04:53.

Human Rights Act which we are continuing with. Why on earth we

:04:54.:04:57.

need an extra layer of declaratory law, I don't know. It was brought in

:04:58.:05:01.

under the Blair Government. Perhaps that explains why it was there. Now,

:05:02.:05:10.

Mr Speaker, no, in a moment. I will make some progress and I will come

:05:11.:05:15.

back to the lady. Mr Speaker, the conversion of EU law into UK law is

:05:16.:05:20.

essential to ensure the UK leaves the EU in the smoothest way

:05:21.:05:22.

possible. However, the action alone is not enough to ensure the statute

:05:23.:05:28.

book continues to function. Many laws will no longer make sense. Many

:05:29.:05:35.

laws oblige UK individuals, firms are public authorities to continue

:05:36.:05:40.

to engage with the European Union in a way that's both absurd and

:05:41.:05:44.

impossible for a country not within the European Union. Other laws will

:05:45.:05:48.

leave the European Union institutions at the public

:05:49.:05:51.

authorities in the United Kingdom, a role they would not be able to

:05:52.:05:54.

perform or fulfil. The problems that would arise without making these

:05:55.:05:57.

changes range from minor inconveniences to the disruption of

:05:58.:06:01.

vital services we all rely on every day will stop in practical terms,

:06:02.:06:04.

this ranges from a public authority being required to submit water

:06:05.:06:09.

quality reports to the European Union to causing disruption from the

:06:10.:06:15.

city by Rowe -- removing the supervision of credit agencies. It

:06:16.:06:20.

is essential these issues are dealt with before we leave or we will be

:06:21.:06:26.

in breach of our duties to produce clarity for our citizens. This is

:06:27.:06:34.

Clause seven of the bill, the so-called correcting power. Unlike

:06:35.:06:38.

section two, this goes straight to the point of the honourable lady

:06:39.:06:43.

raised, unlike section two of European communities which can be

:06:44.:06:49.

used to do pretty much anything in EU law, the correcting power is very

:06:50.:06:54.

limited. It can only be used to deal with things related directly to our

:06:55.:07:00.

withdrawal from the European Union. Ministers cannot use it simply to

:07:01.:07:06.

alter laws they do not like. It is to adopt laws in a domestic context.

:07:07.:07:12.

It is also restricted so it cannot be used to amend the Human Rights

:07:13.:07:21.

Act, impose increased taxation or altar -- or change... There is also

:07:22.:07:31.

a two-year limitation on this. Leaving the European Union presents

:07:32.:07:38.

challenges that need a pragmatic solution. Using secondary

:07:39.:07:41.

legislation to tackle challenges like these are not -- and not

:07:42.:07:45.

unusual. Secondary legislation is a process of long standing with clear

:07:46.:07:50.

and established roles in Parliament. The honourable lady. I am very

:07:51.:07:53.

grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. Following on from

:07:54.:08:00.

the point made by the Honourable member from Beaconsfield, the

:08:01.:08:02.

Secretary of State has asked for concrete examples of rights which

:08:03.:08:05.

will be lost to UK citizens as an example of this act so I would like

:08:06.:08:09.

to give him one and ask what is undertaking to ensure this will not

:08:10.:08:12.

be lost. Earlier this summer, a man called John Wark relied on me EU

:08:13.:08:18.

equality law to bring a successful challenge to a loophole which meant

:08:19.:08:25.

employees could refuse to pay same-sex couples the same rights as

:08:26.:08:32.

heterosexual couples and the supreme court agreed there was a loophole in

:08:33.:08:37.

UK law which was a violation of the general principles of

:08:38.:08:41.

non-discrimination in EU law. So Mr Walker was able to use his right of

:08:42.:08:46.

action and a general principles of EU law to close that loophole so

:08:47.:08:50.

that he and his husband can enjoy the same rights as a heterosexual

:08:51.:08:53.

couple. That wouldn't be possible under this bill because, at the

:08:54.:09:00.

right honourable gentleman said... Order. Order. This is a very lawyer

:09:01.:09:07.

like intervention. I am looking for the?. This wouldn't be possible

:09:08.:09:14.

under this bill because there is no right to sue. Will he give an

:09:15.:09:19.

undertaking that he will close this loophole in the bill if we bring

:09:20.:09:23.

forward an appropriate amendment? I think that will be brought forward

:09:24.:09:30.

in the process of the bill's translation and if not... I am

:09:31.:09:33.

sounding exactly by my undertaking, if not, she should come to me and we

:09:34.:09:39.

will find a way of correcting the problem. No, no, with respect, we

:09:40.:09:44.

have had one lengthy intervention. I've got to make some progress. Our

:09:45.:09:48.

current estimate is that the UK Government will need to make between

:09:49.:09:54.

801,000 statutory instruments to make ex-dash-mac 800 and 1000

:09:55.:10:05.

statutory instruments to make this work. Let me contrast this to the

:10:06.:10:15.

12,000 European Union regulations and 8000 domestic regulations,

:10:16.:10:17.

20,000 pieces of law that have brought forward new policy is what

:10:18.:10:20.

we have been members of the European Union. This one-off task, this

:10:21.:10:25.

one-off task is very different to the kind of new law we have had from

:10:26.:10:30.

the European Union in the last four years and is ultimately about

:10:31.:10:33.

ensuring that power returns to this House. The people who complain about

:10:34.:10:37.

using secondary legislation should remember, of that 20,000 pieces of

:10:38.:10:45.

law, 8000 of them went through under secondary legislation, the remaining

:10:46.:10:49.

12,000 when three without any involvement from this House at all

:10:50.:10:52.

because they came as regulations, so they were changing the law rather

:10:53.:10:56.

than maintaining the law. All of these changes must happen quickly to

:10:57.:11:02.

maintain stability as we leave the European Union. Many of the changes

:11:03.:11:09.

will be minor and technical, replacing references to European

:11:10.:11:11.

Union law or to other member states. It would not make sense nor would it

:11:12.:11:15.

be possible to make these numerous changes in primary legislation. Some

:11:16.:11:18.

of the changes we bring forward would by their nature be more

:11:19.:11:22.

substantial and demand more scrutiny. An example would be the

:11:23.:11:27.

proposal to transfer a function currently organised by the

:11:28.:11:29.

commission to a new domestic body that needs to be set up from

:11:30.:11:33.

scratch. We hope to minimise the need for such bodies but where they

:11:34.:11:37.

are needed, I readily accept that these changes need fuller

:11:38.:11:40.

parliamentary scrutiny. That is why the bill sets clear criteria that

:11:41.:11:44.

would trigger the use of the affirmative procedure, ensuring

:11:45.:11:48.

debate and vote in both houses. Over the course of the two days we will

:11:49.:11:52.

spend debating this bill, I am sure we will hear calls for the secondary

:11:53.:12:00.

legislation to receive greater scrutiny, which the honourable

:12:01.:12:03.

gentleman has already made, along the lines given to primary

:12:04.:12:07.

legislation. I say to Honourable members that I'm clear that the way

:12:08.:12:12.

to make significant changes is to primary legislation, significant

:12:13.:12:14.

changes, and that is where the Queen 's speech set out plans for several

:12:15.:12:19.

further bills to follow this one including on immigration, trade and

:12:20.:12:23.

sanctions, bring in significant new policy changes is not the task at

:12:24.:12:27.

hand. With this power, we are making corrections to the statute book

:12:28.:12:32.

rather than bringing in new policies to take advantage of the

:12:33.:12:34.

opportunities that are provided by the withdrawal from the EU. These

:12:35.:12:38.

corrections need to be made to ensure we have a functioning statute

:12:39.:12:42.

book. As far as we can see, the power we have proposed is the only

:12:43.:12:46.

logical and feasible way to make these corrections. Our approach

:12:47.:12:50.

remains the only viable plan that forward in this House. While we have

:12:51.:12:54.

heard complaint on the benches opposite, we have not seen an

:12:55.:12:55.

alternative. The essential premise of what he

:12:56.:13:02.

argued this morning is an order to ensure a smooth ex-fit we need to

:13:03.:13:06.

maintain as much of the status quote as possible. But this Bill goes

:13:07.:13:14.

further. Looking at clauses five and six those changes would effectively

:13:15.:13:18.

rule out being within the customs union and the single market for a

:13:19.:13:22.

transitional period. That is the single biggest risk to our economy,

:13:23.:13:26.

and that is what is contained in this Bill. Well, he's quite right in

:13:27.:13:33.

one respect, that is clear Government policy. That is in fact

:13:34.:13:37.

the decision taken by the British people last year, that they wanted

:13:38.:13:41.

to leave the EU, which means leaving the single market and the customs

:13:42.:13:45.

union, that point is clear. I know it is confusing on that side of the

:13:46.:13:49.

House because the deputy lead Labour leader appears to have a different

:13:50.:13:52.

view to the rest of the party, but let me make further progress after

:13:53.:13:58.

that silly intervention. The Bill also contains a limited power to

:13:59.:14:03.

implement the withdrawal agreement by statutory instrument if

:14:04.:14:08.

necessary. In a moment. The Government's aspiration is to ensure

:14:09.:14:11.

a new deep and special partnership with the EU. Under the Article 50

:14:12.:14:17.

process, we are negotiating withdrawal of the EU. Provisions

:14:18.:14:21.

will need to be implemented in domestic law and some will need to

:14:22.:14:26.

be done by exit day. In a moment. Given the timetable set by Article

:14:27.:14:29.

50 it is prudent to take this power now so we are ready if necessary to

:14:30.:14:34.

move quickly to implement aspects of an agreement in domestic law. This

:14:35.:14:39.

will be particularly important if negotiations conclude late in a

:14:40.:14:42.

two-year period. This power will help to ensure the UK Government and

:14:43.:14:47.

devolved administrations can implement the outcome of

:14:48.:15:00.

negotiations. The power is limited and will only be available until

:15:01.:15:03.

extra day at which point it will expire. It is aimed at making the

:15:04.:15:06.

changes that need to be in place from day one of exit to ensure an

:15:07.:15:09.

orderly withdrawal from the EU. I have listened patiently to the

:15:10.:15:11.

Secretary of State on these regulations and delegated

:15:12.:15:13.

legislation. It is not just standard. I would like the Secretary

:15:14.:15:18.

of State to say something about the status of the legislation made under

:15:19.:15:22.

clause seven which gives it the status of an Act of Parliament. This

:15:23.:15:28.

is an attempt to oust review. I would like him to elaborate upon

:15:29.:15:35.

that very condition. I am afraid it is not correct, and this point was

:15:36.:15:43.

made by another Member, about the ability to change bits of primary

:15:44.:15:47.

legislation. The simple truth is that that is a standard set of words

:15:48.:15:56.

used by these, the 2002 enterprise Act has it, Labour Party acts have

:15:57.:16:02.

it, and it is making sure nothing in the Bill prevents the ability to go

:16:03.:16:09.

through a transition phase, for example, and into the next phase of

:16:10.:16:14.

negotiation. Forgive me, I will make progress. The use of the power will

:16:15.:16:18.

depend on the contents of the withdrawal agreement. For example

:16:19.:16:22.

the power could, depending on the agreement, be used to clarify the

:16:23.:16:30.

state of cases in the CJ JEE. It could also be used to enable

:16:31.:16:34.

ventilatory approval for UK products pending at the point of exit in line

:16:35.:16:37.

with the proposal in the UK's position paper this summer. These

:16:38.:16:44.

sorts of fairly technical but important issues need to be capable

:16:45.:16:49.

of being changed. I will give way in one second. We've had already

:16:50.:16:51.

committed to bringing forward a motion on the final agreement to be

:16:52.:16:56.

approved by both houses before it is concluded. That vote is in addition

:16:57.:17:00.

to Parliamentary scrutiny of any statutory instruments with promoters

:17:01.:17:02.

under this power and also in addition to the enormous debate and

:17:03.:17:07.

scrutiny applied to the primary legislation to cover all and every

:17:08.:17:11.

major policy change around our exit from the EU. So Parliament will be

:17:12.:17:16.

followed involved in taking this forward Andrew withdrawal agreement.

:17:17.:17:21.

I will give way. One of the most offensive kinds of provision --

:17:22.:17:25.

defensive provision that appear is the Henry VIII clause as we call it,

:17:26.:17:30.

not my words but the wise words of my Right Honourable Friend the

:17:31.:17:36.

Member for Stone in 2013. There have been long-standing real concerns

:17:37.:17:40.

about statutory instruments for many years and right across these

:17:41.:17:45.

pensions. So to allay those concerns would my Right Honourable Friend

:17:46.:17:50.

look at what is called triaging of these proposed statutory

:17:51.:17:53.

instruments. Many thousands will be completely uncontroversial and can

:17:54.:17:56.

be dealt with quickly and efficiently, but those which really

:17:57.:18:01.

be considered fully by this chamber in this place, that could then

:18:02.:18:07.

happen if we have this triaging. Would he please agree to look at

:18:08.:18:11.

that principle? It will solve many of the difficulties with this Bill

:18:12.:18:20.

across all these benches. It won't be many thousands, it is between 800

:18:21.:18:25.

and thousand as the estimate has come down because we have taken out

:18:26.:18:30.

much of the most serious legislation in primary legislation. I will

:18:31.:18:34.

happily talk to her about mechanisms for making sure this is a fully

:18:35.:18:41.

democratic and open process, and let's come back to it. I talked to

:18:42.:18:47.

her about it in the build process. Forgive me, I am trying to hold back

:18:48.:18:52.

on too many interventions but I will discuss it. Now... I will give way.

:18:53.:19:02.

On the powers in clause nine to implement the withdrawal agreement,

:19:03.:19:05.

is the Secretary of State able to give the House and assurance that

:19:06.:19:09.

those powers will not be exercised until Parliament has had an

:19:10.:19:13.

opportunity to vote on the agreement? Just thinking through the

:19:14.:19:23.

logic of that, it seems to me logical. If you will allow me a few

:19:24.:19:29.

moments to review the matter, it seems perfectly possible, but I

:19:30.:19:33.

won't do it on the fly in case I missed something. He is right. Let

:19:34.:19:39.

me say to the House, he is right about one thing in that there are

:19:40.:19:44.

two issues run together, the question of the overall judgment on

:19:45.:19:51.

the outcome and any withdrawal arrangements. The withdrawal

:19:52.:19:56.

arrangements are most likely scum Blissett arrives late. He will

:19:57.:20:01.

remember when we talked about how the House will be able to review the

:20:02.:20:07.

negotiated agreement, but we said we would make the best endeavours and

:20:08.:20:11.

expect to get it to the House before anybody else does that. That is what

:20:12.:20:14.

we intend but we had to use that form of words because we were unsure

:20:15.:20:19.

about timing. I will come back to him on that matter. I want to move

:20:20.:20:24.

onto another subject if I may, which is the question of devolution,

:20:25.:20:28.

relating directly to some of the things the opposition have been

:20:29.:20:32.

saying. Let me now deal with the Bill's approach to. The overall

:20:33.:20:42.

approach of this Bill is to provide continuity wherever possible at the

:20:43.:20:45.

point of exit, not seek to initiate reforms immediately. That is the

:20:46.:20:46.

approach that guides devolution provisions as well. Let me be clear,

:20:47.:20:52.

this Government has a strong track record on devolution. Our commitment

:20:53.:20:54.

to strengthen devolution settlement is clear in the statute book, most

:20:55.:20:59.

recently the Wales Act of 2017 and the Scotland Act 2016, which

:21:00.:21:05.

remember correctly gave ?12 billion of tax raising powers to the

:21:06.:21:08.

Scottish Parliament. So not such small things. Leaving the EU allows

:21:09.:21:12.

us to ensure decision-making sits closer to people than ever before.

:21:13.:21:16.

We expect a significant increase in the decision-making power of the

:21:17.:21:24.

devolved institutions. The current devolution settlements have always

:21:25.:21:28.

created common frameworks within the UK by reflecting the context of the

:21:29.:21:34.

UK's EU membership so in areas subject to EU law, all parts of the

:21:35.:21:39.

UK currently follow common laws and principles even when matters are

:21:40.:21:44.

otherwise devolved, for example, England, Wales, Scotland and

:21:45.:21:46.

Northern Ireland each pass their own laws relating to food policy but

:21:47.:21:50.

each nation has to ensure they comply with EU rules on food

:21:51.:21:55.

hygiene. When we leave the EU it is not in the interests of people and

:21:56.:21:59.

businesses living and working in the UK for all those arrangements to

:22:00.:22:02.

disappear or for there to be new barriers to living doing business in

:22:03.:22:08.

our country. The Bill provides certainty and continuity for people

:22:09.:22:12.

across the UK by recreating in UK law the common frameworks currently

:22:13.:22:19.

provided by EU law and providing that devolved institutions cannot

:22:20.:22:23.

modify them. It also ensures that every decision the devolved

:22:24.:22:25.

administrations could take before exit date, they can still take after

:22:26.:22:31.

exit day. This is a transitional arrangement which ensures certainty

:22:32.:22:35.

and continuity whilst the UK undertakes negotiations with the EU

:22:36.:22:42.

on its future relationship, and the UK Government administrations

:22:43.:22:45.

discuss precisely where we need to retain common frameworks within the

:22:46.:22:52.

UK. I give way. What he is therefore describing is not devolution but

:22:53.:22:55.

preserving powers back to this Parliament, a fundamental breach of

:22:56.:22:58.

the principles of the original Scotland Act. Can he confirm that

:22:59.:23:05.

any statutory instruments that go through this House is affecting the

:23:06.:23:09.

devolved administrations will be as a result of this Bill, subject to

:23:10.:23:14.

legislative consent in those administrations? I have said already

:23:15.:23:20.

we will be putting out a consent motion. Let's come back to the core

:23:21.:23:26.

of this argument. Everything that belongs to the EU now belongs to the

:23:27.:23:30.

devolved administrations so this clearly doesn't work, as we will

:23:31.:23:33.

come to in a minute. These common frameworks will be important as they

:23:34.:23:37.

enable us to manage shared resources such as the sea, rivers and air, and

:23:38.:23:43.

enable us to continue functioning in the UK's internal market. They will

:23:44.:23:47.

allow us to strike trade deals and provide access to justice in cases

:23:48.:23:53.

with a cross-border element. This includes our future relationship

:23:54.:23:59.

with the EU. For example, they will mean a business in Wales known as it

:24:00.:24:03.

only needs to comply with one set of food labelling and safety rules to

:24:04.:24:07.

sell to the rest of the UK, or a farmer in Scotland can sell

:24:08.:24:11.

livestock and other parts of the UK safe in the knowledge that the same

:24:12.:24:15.

animal health rules apply across that geographic area. Certainty on

:24:16.:24:21.

common approaches is critical for the day to day life of people in the

:24:22.:24:28.

UK on the day we exit the EU and into the future. The Honourable

:24:29.:24:32.

Gentleman is trying to get in. If this is a smooth transition I'm not

:24:33.:24:36.

sure how much worse it is going to get. But on the points he races, he

:24:37.:24:43.

makes a good case for the EU. I don't see any reference here to

:24:44.:24:47.

immigration powers Scotland was promised during the referendum

:24:48.:24:53.

process. Could he explain? I don't remember any such promise. What was

:24:54.:24:58.

interesting in this, when I was going through the list of practical

:24:59.:25:02.

things that apply to the citizens they are supposed to represent, what

:25:03.:25:07.

do we here? They don't care. What they are interested in is devolution

:25:08.:25:12.

and political power for themselves, not the interests of their own

:25:13.:25:15.

constituents. So just as important are those areas where we do not need

:25:16.:25:20.

common approaches in future. We do not expect to need to maintain a

:25:21.:25:24.

framework in every area of the EU is mandated. We can assure our common

:25:25.:25:33.

approach is better suited the UK and devolution settlements and therefore

:25:34.:25:35.

the Bill provides a mechanism to release policy areas where no

:25:36.:25:37.

frameworks are needed. This Bill gives time for us to work together

:25:38.:25:40.

with the devolved administrations to determine where we will continue to

:25:41.:25:45.

need common frameworks in future, and crucially, it will not create

:25:46.:25:50.

unnecessary short-term change that negatively affects people and

:25:51.:25:53.

businesses. Before the summer recess my Right Honourable Friend the first

:25:54.:25:56.

Secretary of State wrote to the Scottish and Welsh Government to

:25:57.:26:01.

begin intensive discussions over where frameworks are and are not

:26:02.:26:05.

needed. In the current absence of the Northern Ireland Executive

:26:06.:26:08.

equivalent to gauge Mint has taken place with the Northern Ireland

:26:09.:26:11.

civil service -- equivalent engagement. We will bring forward

:26:12.:26:14.

further detail on this process in due course for Parliament to decide.

:26:15.:26:22.

Certainly in devolved legislation affected by the EU X it it is also

:26:23.:26:29.

vital that certainty -- that there is certainty. The key powers in this

:26:30.:26:33.

Bill are conferred upon devolved administration so the task of

:26:34.:26:35.

preparing a devolved statute book for exit can rightly be led from

:26:36.:26:39.

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The Government is committed

:26:40.:26:44.

to ensuring the powers work for the administrations and legislatures.

:26:45.:26:45.

For instance I have already confirmed we were always consult on

:26:46.:26:53.

corrections to EU law. I firmly believe that the outcome of this

:26:54.:26:59.

process will be a significant increase in decision-making power of

:27:00.:27:01.

the devolved administrations. It will mean decisions and power sit in

:27:02.:27:07.

the right place and closer to people than ever before, and crucially,

:27:08.:27:12.

this Bill means UK businesses and citizens have confidence and

:27:13.:27:14.

certainty in the laws to allow them to live and operate across the UK as

:27:15.:27:21.

we exit the EU. As the Prime Minister said... I have given way to

:27:22.:27:24.

poor ones. As the Prime Minister said in January, the historic

:27:25.:27:31.

decision taken by the British people in June last year was not a

:27:32.:27:34.

rejection of the common values and history we share with the EU. But it

:27:35.:27:40.

was a reflection of the desire of British people to control our own

:27:41.:27:44.

laws and ensure these reflect the country and people we want to be.

:27:45.:27:49.

This Bill is an essential building block for this which lays the

:27:50.:27:52.

foundation for a functioning statute book which future policies and laws

:27:53.:27:56.

can be debated and altered. This Bill is itself not the place for

:27:57.:28:02.

those changes to the frameworks we inherit from the EU. We will have

:28:03.:28:04.

more opportunities to debate those before and after we leave. I hope

:28:05.:28:08.

the Honourable members on all sides will recognise we have acted

:28:09.:28:12.

responsibly by prioritising first and foremost a functioning statute

:28:13.:28:17.

book. In bringing forward this Bill we are ensuring the smooth as

:28:18.:28:21.

possible exit from the EU, which enables continued stability of the

:28:22.:28:24.

UK's legal system and maximises certainty for businesses, consumers

:28:25.:28:30.

and individuals across the UK, and as we exit and seek a new deep and

:28:31.:28:35.

special partnership with EU, the Bill ensures we will do so from a

:28:36.:28:38.

position with the same standards and rules.

:28:39.:28:53.

I hope everyone in this House recognises the bill's is the true

:28:54.:28:58.

nature. It is a foundation on which we will legislate for years. We have

:28:59.:29:02.

just had this morning the proposals from the opposition on their

:29:03.:29:10.

proposal to move a reasoned amendment. I have just emphasised

:29:11.:29:18.

the critical nature of this bill. A vote for the honourable member's

:29:19.:29:22.

amendment is a vote against this bill, a vote for a chaotic exit from

:29:23.:29:27.

the European Union. The amendment suggests... The amendment suggests

:29:28.:29:34.

that this bill provides some sort of blank cheque to ministers. That's a

:29:35.:29:40.

fundamental, that's a fundamental misrepresentation of Parliament and

:29:41.:29:44.

our democratic recess. Using the bill's powers does not mean avoiding

:29:45.:29:49.

Parliamentary scrutiny. Secondary legislation is still subject to

:29:50.:29:53.

parliamentary oversight using well-established procedures. In no

:29:54.:29:55.

way does it provide unilateral powers to the Government. On rights,

:29:56.:30:01.

the Government agrees that the exit cannot lead to weaker rights in the

:30:02.:30:08.

UK. We have been clear we want to ensure workers' rights are protected

:30:09.:30:11.

and enhanced as we leave the European Union. This bill provides

:30:12.:30:14.

for existing legislation of this area to be maintained and then after

:30:15.:30:19.

we leave European Union it will be right for Parliament to determine

:30:20.:30:24.

the proper levels of protection. We have also spoken about devolution.

:30:25.:30:29.

Finally, the argument that this undermines the implementation of our

:30:30.:30:32.

new arrangements with the European Union is completely wrong. The bill

:30:33.:30:36.

provides a clear basis for negotiation by ensuring continuity

:30:37.:30:40.

and clarity in our laws without prejudice to negotiations. Without

:30:41.:30:45.

legislation, a smooth and orderly exit is not possible. We cannot wait

:30:46.:30:51.

the completion of negotiations for -- before ensuring legal certainty.

:30:52.:30:56.

To do so or to delay and oppose the bill would be reckless in the

:30:57.:31:02.

extreme. Mr Speaker, I have, I have in the past witnessed the Labour

:31:03.:31:06.

Party on European business take the most cynical, unprincipled approach

:31:07.:31:10.

to legislation that I have ever seen. They are now attempting to do

:31:11.:31:15.

the same today and the British people will not forgive them if the

:31:16.:31:20.

end of their process is to delay or destroy the process by which we

:31:21.:31:25.

leave the European Union. Order. The question is that the bill be now

:31:26.:31:34.

read a second time. I must inform the House I have selected the

:31:35.:31:37.

amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition. I remained a

:31:38.:31:40.

house that of course front bench speakers can speak without a time

:31:41.:31:45.

limit and they have to be sensitive to the number of people who want to

:31:46.:31:51.

intervene on them. So I merely note, and colleagues can make their own

:31:52.:31:55.

assessment, that on current progress, probably somewhat fewer

:31:56.:32:00.

than half of those who wish to speak today will be able to do so.

:32:01.:32:06.

Colleagues obviously need to help each other. Circular Starmer. The

:32:07.:32:17.

Secretary of State is keen to portray this bill as a technical

:32:18.:32:22.

exercise converting EU law into our law without raising any serious

:32:23.:32:27.

constitutional issues about the role of Parliament. Nothing could be

:32:28.:32:32.

further from the truth. Mr Speaker, let me start with Clause nine. The

:32:33.:32:38.

article 15 negotiations that the Secretary of State and by Minister

:32:39.:32:41.

Noel are among the most difficult and significant in recent history.

:32:42.:32:46.

Under Article 50, the agreement will cover all of the withdrawal

:32:47.:32:51.

arrangements and take account of our future relationship between the UK

:32:52.:32:55.

and the EU. A backwards look and forwards look and something which

:32:56.:33:01.

may last for decades. We know from phase one it will have to cover EU

:33:02.:33:06.

citizens, Northern Ireland, UK citizens in Europe, and money. Phase

:33:07.:33:13.

two of course will cover security, cross-border crime, civil justice,

:33:14.:33:15.

fisheries, farming, Gibraltar, you name it. We hope it will be in the

:33:16.:33:22.

Article 50 agreement. We want that to succeed. We need an agreement.

:33:23.:33:27.

And of course it will include our future trading arrangements. Hugely

:33:28.:33:32.

important, including any transitional arrangements, if there

:33:33.:33:36.

are such arrangements, and much more. Arguably, the arrangements

:33:37.:33:43.

will, and these are not my words but I will come back to them, extend to

:33:44.:33:48.

every facet of national life. That Article 50 agreement will be voted

:33:49.:33:53.

on. But it will then have to be implemented. A colossal task likely

:33:54.:34:03.

to involve a whole host of policy choices and require very widespread

:34:04.:34:07.

changes to our law on any view. So how will that be done? Enter Clause

:34:08.:34:11.

nine. Amen De Schepper Minister well, it's very likely to have to be

:34:12.:34:32.

enforced before exit day because otherwise there will be a gap, so

:34:33.:34:36.

that means the whole of the agreement being implemented under

:34:37.:34:40.

Clause nine. The whole of the agreement, including transitional

:34:41.:34:45.

measures. It can't be implemented after exit day otherwise there will

:34:46.:34:50.

be a gap. Let's be clear about how wide Clause nine years. We've had

:34:51.:34:54.

some discussion about Henry VIII. Let's read subsection two.

:34:55.:34:58.

Regulations under this provision on the withdrawal bill may make any

:34:59.:35:03.

precision that could be made by an act of Parliament, it's true Henry

:35:04.:35:07.

VIII, it can modify Acts of Parliament, in brackets, including

:35:08.:35:17.

modifying this act. The delegated legislation can amend the primary

:35:18.:35:20.

act itself. That is as wide as I've seen in my experience. What are the

:35:21.:35:30.

limits? You might think, what are the limits, what other safeguards?

:35:31.:35:38.

Well, Clause 9.3. You can't impose taxation, retrospective provisions,

:35:39.:35:41.

while they are usually a very bad idea, create a criminal offence or

:35:42.:35:47.

affect the Human Rights Act. Everything else is on limits under

:35:48.:35:52.

Clause nine. Everything else is on limits under Clause nine. I will

:35:53.:35:55.

just make this point and then of course I'll give way. Surely then

:35:56.:36:02.

all Clause nine, and I'm using this as an example, you would expect

:36:03.:36:07.

somewhere in here and enhanced procedure, a safeguard, surely not

:36:08.:36:11.

just ordinary old delegated legislation? Surely something when

:36:12.:36:16.

it is as wide as this. I will make this point and then of course give

:36:17.:36:21.

way to a number of people when I have done it. What are the

:36:22.:36:26.

procedures? Are they enhanced? No. The opposite. Schedule seven, part

:36:27.:36:36.

two deals with Clause nine. It makes it clear that unless the delegated

:36:37.:36:44.

legislation creates a public authority or the function of a

:36:45.:36:50.

public authority, affect a criminal offence or the power to make

:36:51.:36:55.

legislation, it is to be dealt with by what? The negative procedure for

:36:56.:36:59.

statutory instruments, the least possible scrutiny. So the widest

:37:00.:37:07.

possible power, no safeguards, channelled in to the level of least

:37:08.:37:12.

scrutiny. That is absolutely extraordinary. And let's be clear

:37:13.:37:18.

what that means. Because I am sure the Secretary of State and others

:37:19.:37:23.

will say, well, notwithstanding the number of statutory instruments

:37:24.:37:26.

under this legislation, they could be called up and Donald, Parliament

:37:27.:37:31.

has its say. I looked up the last time a negative procedure statute

:37:32.:37:37.

was annulled in this House. 38 years ago. I don't know how many people

:37:38.:37:41.

have been in this House for 38 years, but many of us will have not

:37:42.:37:53.

had the opportunity... So much, so much for taking back control. And

:37:54.:38:01.

there's no point the Secretary of State or the Prime Minister saying,

:38:02.:38:06.

well, we wouldn't use these powers, take our assurance. If you wouldn't

:38:07.:38:12.

use them, they are unnecessary. And if they are unnecessary, they

:38:13.:38:15.

shouldn't be put before this House for approval today. I will give way.

:38:16.:38:21.

I thank the honourable gentleman for giving way. The case he is making is

:38:22.:38:29.

for an amendment to Clause nine. He is not making a case against the

:38:30.:38:34.

principle of this bill which is what second reading is about and yet he

:38:35.:38:37.

and his party are determined to vote against the principle of the bill.

:38:38.:38:42.

He used -- he ought to make that case. I have only just started. I

:38:43.:38:50.

give way. The Secretary of State made great play that this bill is

:38:51.:38:54.

necessary for certainty but given the legal situation that my right

:38:55.:38:58.

honourable friend has just excellently elucidated, would he

:38:59.:39:02.

agree with me that the powers that this gives Secretary of State Debra

:39:03.:39:06.

regulating every aspect of our lives means that this bill is a charter

:39:07.:39:09.

for uncertainty for ordinary British people? I wait and I'm going to

:39:10.:39:19.

attempt to demonstrate that. I will press on. I know people want to

:39:20.:39:24.

intervene. I hear what the Speaker says about the number of people who

:39:25.:39:28.

want to speak and I will try to take them at intervals of that is

:39:29.:39:32.

satisfactory to the House. The same approach to Clause nine is taken to

:39:33.:39:35.

Clause seven for dealing with deficiencies arising from withdrawal

:39:36.:39:38.

and under Clause eight complying with international legislation. All

:39:39.:39:42.

channelled into the negative procedure with the least possible

:39:43.:39:46.

scrutiny. The giant sidestepped a Parliamentary scrutiny on the most

:39:47.:39:51.

important issues of our day. But let me top it off, if you think that's

:39:52.:39:57.

bad, and I do, try Clause 17. Try Clause 17. A minister of the Crown

:39:58.:40:08.

may by regulations make such provisions as a Minister considers

:40:09.:40:12.

appropriate in consequence of this act. That's it. Anything in

:40:13.:40:16.

consequence of the act can be done under Clause 17. Again, making it

:40:17.:40:22.

absolutely clear, this is a proper robust Henry VIII. Look at the

:40:23.:40:27.

Clause two, the power to make laws and does one may be exercised by

:40:28.:40:35.

power and any other enactment. That means amending primary legislation.

:40:36.:40:43.

And this, subsection three, in case anybody is in doubt, in subsection

:40:44.:40:49.

two, enactment does not include primary legislation passed made

:40:50.:40:52.

after the end of the session in which this act is passed. So it can

:40:53.:40:57.

amend any legislation whatsoever, primary legislation, including

:40:58.:41:02.

legislation in this session. Everything in the Queen's speech

:41:03.:41:06.

that's coming down the track can be amended by delegated legislation

:41:07.:41:12.

under Clause 17. I've never come across such a wide power. I've seen

:41:13.:41:16.

consequential powers. The Secretary of State will no doubt point out

:41:17.:41:20.

other statutes which have similar powers. I have looked at them, I

:41:21.:41:25.

have never seen one as wide as this. Don't just take my word for it.

:41:26.:41:30.

Don't take my word for it. The Secretary of State a minute ago said

:41:31.:41:32.

nobody could suggest this was a blank legislative check for the

:41:33.:41:38.

Government. Nobody could. Let me read to you the Hansard Society, not

:41:39.:41:45.

a political body, not the opposition, the Hansard Society

:41:46.:41:51.

about Clause 17. I quote, such an extensive power is hedged in by the

:41:52.:41:56.

fact that any provision must somehow relate to the withdrawal from the

:41:57.:42:02.

EU, but given that this will arguably extend to every facet of

:42:03.:42:07.

national life, if it was granted, it would in effect, their words, hand

:42:08.:42:12.

the Government a legislative blank cheque. Hansard's words. I need to

:42:13.:42:21.

just complete this part of my presentation, if I may. A

:42:22.:42:27.

legislative blank cheque. So, what's the scope and extent of this?

:42:28.:42:37.

What is the scope and extent of this? How many pieces of legislation

:42:38.:42:44.

are we concerned with? The White Paper suggested 800-1000, the

:42:45.:42:50.

majority of which will go in the negative procedure route. I don't

:42:51.:42:54.

think the White Paper could or did take into account the further

:42:55.:42:59.

instruments necessary to implement the withdrawal agreement, which

:43:00.:43:04.

could be very many more, well over 1000 pieces of delegated

:43:05.:43:07.

legislation, with the least scrutiny possible. I will complete this point

:43:08.:43:13.

then give way. I was glad to see the Prime Minister was here earlier.

:43:14.:43:21.

Yesterday, during Prime Minister's Questions, the Prime Minister told

:43:22.:43:26.

the House, and I quote, "The Government's approach to this Bill

:43:27.:43:33.

has been endorsed by the House of Lords Constitution committee".

:43:34.:43:35.

That's what she said yesterday at the dispatch box. I went and read,

:43:36.:43:41.

again, that report last night. I have doubts about that endorsement.

:43:42.:43:51.

But... When I finish this point. But when I is she, and the Secretary of

:43:52.:43:57.

State will know, this morning, the House of Lords produced its further

:43:58.:44:02.

report on the Bill published this morning. It concludes, I quote,

:44:03.:44:11.

executive powers conferred by this Bill are unprecedented and

:44:12.:44:14.

extraordinary and raise constitutional issues about the

:44:15.:44:17.

separation of powers between Parliament and Government". It goes

:44:18.:44:24.

on to say, this is the committee the Prime Minister was yesterday citing,

:44:25.:44:28.

"The number, range and overlapping nature of broad delegated powers

:44:29.:44:31.

would fundamentally challenge constitutional balances of power

:44:32.:44:35.

between Parliament and Government and represent a significant and

:44:36.:44:41.

unacceptable transfer of legal competence". Far from an endorsement

:44:42.:44:45.

it is an explicit and damning criticism of the Government 's

:44:46.:44:50.

approach. I will give Wade. Can I absolutely agree with my Right

:44:51.:44:54.

Honourable Friend for pointing out what a joke this Bill is, setting

:44:55.:44:59.

out all these supposed safeguards, and correctly he points out that the

:45:00.:45:03.

ministers can make regulations to modify this Act. We are disappearing

:45:04.:45:10.

down the Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole of legislation, and will he

:45:11.:45:14.

also agreed that it doesn't matter when ministers opposite, the Prime

:45:15.:45:17.

Minister, secretary of State of state say, trust us, we won't use

:45:18.:45:22.

the regulars, because they could be here today, gone tomorrow. The

:45:23.:45:26.

Honourable Member for the 18th century in Somerset could be Prime

:45:27.:45:30.

Minister, we could be in hand is totally with all these powers. I am

:45:31.:45:39.

grateful for that intervention. CHEERING. Order, I think we can

:45:40.:45:47.

short-circuit this, the Honourable Gentleman for North East Somerset

:45:48.:45:50.

has observed that the 18th-century is altogether too recent for him.

:45:51.:46:01.

There have been two interventions. Could he go back to clause nine? In

:46:02.:46:05.

relation to what is being called the divorce Bill, the amount of money we

:46:06.:46:10.

may have debated the EU on leaving the EU. Is it his view that under

:46:11.:46:20.

clause nine, that could be agreed by a minister, by Government, without

:46:21.:46:25.

this place having any say over the amount of money paid at all? If it

:46:26.:46:31.

doesn't come under clause nine it will certainly come under clause 17.

:46:32.:46:36.

I give Wade and apologise for taking the wrong order. Thank you very much

:46:37.:46:48.

for giving way. As a new Member, I also look for advice on how

:46:49.:46:52.

Parliament has looked at statutory instruments and I also saw that the

:46:53.:46:56.

last time the instruments were annulled by this House was back in

:46:57.:47:01.

1979. The issue was on the cost of paraffin, and I remember 1979 and

:47:02.:47:06.

the high cost of fuel. It was a significant issue. But given that

:47:07.:47:11.

the Secretary of State has said in response to the intervention from

:47:12.:47:16.

the Member for Brock Stowe that he is prepared to consider a sifting

:47:17.:47:19.

process which means that serious issues do come back to this House,

:47:20.:47:25.

what is your alternative? What are you proposing? What is your

:47:26.:47:34.

amendment? Being made for the first time today. These points have been

:47:35.:47:39.

made since the White Paper was published. That was in March. The

:47:40.:47:43.

Bill was published in July, there have been numerous reports since

:47:44.:47:47.

then, and I raised that the time the significant issues I am raising now,

:47:48.:47:50.

and there has been no move from the Government. I will give way then I

:47:51.:47:58.

will move on. The key point about section nine is that it allows the

:47:59.:48:03.

Government to have asked Parliament to allow it to alter the Bill itself

:48:04.:48:08.

by secondary legislation once it has been enacted. If you look through

:48:09.:48:14.

the history of the 20th century, you will see no Bill that has sought to

:48:15.:48:19.

do that, not in time of war or civil emergency, and in fact for every

:48:20.:48:24.

single emergency Powers Act, they have expressly said they shall not

:48:25.:48:29.

be a power for ministers to alter primary legislation. I am grateful

:48:30.:48:35.

for that intervention. I am on my feet answering the last

:48:36.:48:40.

intervention. It powerfully makes the point that this Act is

:48:41.:48:46.

unprecedented in its scope. It is significant because the Secretary of

:48:47.:48:49.

State will point to some of the safeguards under the Act for the

:48:50.:48:55.

exercise of some of these powers. But if the delegated legislation can

:48:56.:49:02.

amend the Act, then notions of exit day, how far the dead legation

:49:03.:49:05.

legislation goes and what procedures are used could be amended by the Act

:49:06.:49:10.

delegated legislation. I will press on. Let me turn from Parliamentary

:49:11.:49:20.

involvement to the protection of rights. Many rights and protections

:49:21.:49:26.

derived from the EU are protected in delegated legislation under the 1972

:49:27.:49:33.

European Communities Act. Because they are underpinned by EU

:49:34.:49:37.

provisions, they have enjoyed enhanced protection. 44 years worth.

:49:38.:49:43.

They include some very important rights. The working time rights of

:49:44.:49:48.

people at work, the rights of part-time and fixed term workers,

:49:49.:49:53.

the transfer of undertakings provision which affects everybody

:49:54.:49:57.

who is at work if their company is taken over, so their contracts are

:49:58.:50:01.

preserved, something we all believe him. All health and safety

:50:02.:50:05.

provisions have been by delegated legislation under the 1972 Act. It

:50:06.:50:10.

didn't matter that it was just delegated legislation because they

:50:11.:50:14.

had enhanced protection because of the 72 Act and our membership of the

:50:15.:50:21.

EU. The same is equally true of important environmental rights and

:50:22.:50:26.

protections for consumers. Under this Bill, the Secretary of State

:50:27.:50:29.

says they survive, and I accept that, and he does have a condiment

:50:30.:50:35.

to rights at work, but they don't survive with their enhanced status.

:50:36.:50:42.

They survive only in delegated form. From the date of this Bill, they are

:50:43.:50:47.

amendable by delegated legislation. All of those rights at work, those

:50:48.:50:51.

environmental provisions, consumer rights, they are protected only...

:50:52.:50:59.

They are not protected from delegated legislation. I will give

:51:00.:51:04.

way in that order. On the specific point of health and safety

:51:05.:51:08.

protections, he knows of course that there is in fact in 1974 statute,

:51:09.:51:13.

the health and safety at work Act which gives not just employees

:51:14.:51:19.

safety protections but also members of the public affected by conditions

:51:20.:51:23.

in the workplace. Surely that in itself acts as the primary

:51:24.:51:29.

protection to workers in this country under health and safety

:51:30.:51:32.

provisions. White I am afraid it doesn't. LAUGHTER.

:51:33.:51:43.

There are other revelations which postdate baton but doesn't deal with

:51:44.:51:52.

any other rights. -- the postdate that. He is making an excellent

:51:53.:51:56.

speech. On the issue of environmental standards would he

:51:57.:51:59.

agree with me that there is another problem which is the governance gap,

:52:00.:52:03.

in other words with the lack of the European Court of Justice and

:52:04.:52:06.

commission there is nothing to enforce environmental standards,

:52:07.:52:09.

therefore we need a new legal architecture. Judicial review is not

:52:10.:52:13.

enough. I am grateful for that intervention because one thing that

:52:14.:52:18.

is not on the face of the statue is any enforcement provision for rights

:52:19.:52:22.

currently enforced in one or other way through EU institutions or even

:52:23.:52:27.

reporting obligations. It is fair to say that there is the provision in

:52:28.:52:33.

the Act for the creation of public authorities by delegated

:52:34.:52:39.

legislation, and it may be that that could be used for remedies, but it

:52:40.:52:43.

is by no means clear on the face of the Bill and I think that is an

:52:44.:52:47.

important deficiency. Let me complete this point. Does it matter

:52:48.:52:51.

that these rights have lost their enhanced protection? Yes, it does.

:52:52.:52:58.

Taking back control, obviously, carries with it that Parliament can

:52:59.:53:02.

change those rights, as the Secretary of State rightly set out.

:53:03.:53:07.

This is to change them by delegated legislation, not primary

:53:08.:53:09.

legislation. That is an important distinction. Does it matter, would

:53:10.:53:14.

any anybody have a go, surely not on the 21st-century. Well... Foreign

:53:15.:53:23.

Secretary, June, 2014, calling for an end to backbreaking employment

:53:24.:53:27.

regulations, specifically collective reduction in Mac redundancies

:53:28.:53:30.

directive. The International Development Secretary during the

:53:31.:53:32.

referendum campaign calling for the Government to halve the amount of

:53:33.:53:36.

protection given to British workers after Brexit. The international

:53:37.:53:44.

trade Secretary, I am addressing the question, whether it is conceivable

:53:45.:53:47.

that a Conservative Government change this -- Government might

:53:48.:53:50.

change this. I reading out the statements of three Cabinet members.

:53:51.:53:58.

International trade secretary, Fabbri, 2012, and I know the

:53:59.:54:01.

Secretary of State heard the quote this morning, to restore Britain

:54:02.:54:06.

Cosma competitiveness we must begin by deregulating the Labour market,

:54:07.:54:11.

political objections must be overridden. It is too difficult to

:54:12.:54:16.

hire and fire and difficult to take on employees. It is unsustainable

:54:17.:54:19.

but to believe workplace rights should be untouchable while output

:54:20.:54:24.

and employment are cyclical. This Secretary of State has a proud

:54:25.:54:28.

record on human rights and protections of people at work, but

:54:29.:54:32.

these are Cabinet colleagues, and this power in this Bill allows these

:54:33.:54:39.

rights to be overridden by delegated legislation. I will give way. Isn't

:54:40.:54:45.

there a fundamental contradiction in what he has been saying? A moment

:54:46.:54:50.

ago he was worrying that power would be lost from this House. Now he is

:54:51.:54:56.

saying power should in fact be with the EU. Isn't this the fundamental

:54:57.:55:00.

point of this Bill, that it is better that laws should be made by

:55:01.:55:04.

our Government and our Parliament than an elected EU bureaucracy? Mr

:55:05.:55:13.

Speaker, I am obviously a very bad communicator. I thought I was

:55:14.:55:17.

suggesting that work praise and environmental and consumer rights

:55:18.:55:20.

should only be capable of being taken away by primary legislation.

:55:21.:55:25.

If there is any doubt, I can assure the Honourable Member when I say

:55:26.:55:27.

primer legislation I mean legislation in this House. I thought

:55:28.:55:35.

that was taken as read. Doesn't the last intervention point to the

:55:36.:55:38.

fundamental misunderstanding some people have about this Bill, and I

:55:39.:55:42.

am afraid the Secretary of State mentioned it in his intervention.

:55:43.:55:45.

The point is whether the UK is going to become a rule take up rather than

:55:46.:55:51.

a rule maker. Our membership of the EU has allowed us to influence the

:55:52.:55:55.

directors of regulations which have then been taken on board in this

:55:56.:55:58.

House and through our laws. What we are doing in this Bill is saying,

:55:59.:56:06.

not repealing, we are reintroducing European legislation into this

:56:07.:56:09.

country contrary to those who wanted to leave the EU taking back control.

:56:10.:56:15.

I am grateful for that intervention and agree with it. Can I move onto

:56:16.:56:20.

other rights, because they are dealt with more severely. Clause 54

:56:21.:56:26.

singles out the Charter of fundamental rights for extinction.

:56:27.:56:29.

There are thousands of provisions being converted into our law, and

:56:30.:56:34.

they will have to be modified in some cases to arrive in our law.

:56:35.:56:38.

Only one provision in the thousands and thousands have been singled out

:56:39.:56:43.

for extinction. The Charter of fundamental rights. As was argued an

:56:44.:56:49.

article published yesterday the principles of the Charter provide

:56:50.:56:53.

essential safeguard for individuals and businesses, and that has been

:56:54.:56:58.

particularly important in the field of LGBT rights, children's rights

:56:59.:57:04.

and the rights the elderly. Does it matter, says the Secretary of State,

:57:05.:57:10.

tell me why it matters? I've got here the High Court judgment in the

:57:11.:57:19.

case of David Davies MP, Tom Watson MP, and others, versus the Secretary

:57:20.:57:25.

of State for the Home Department, the then Home Secretary being now

:57:26.:57:29.

the Prime Minister. The backbencher David Davies bringing to court the

:57:30.:57:34.

now Prime Minister. He was challenging, he will recall, the

:57:35.:57:40.

provisions of the data retention investigatory Powers Act 2014, and

:57:41.:57:45.

he was very concerned that it would impinge on the ability of MPs to

:57:46.:57:51.

have confidential communications from their constituents, a pointy

:57:52.:57:53.

continued into the debate we had a year or two ago. In his argument, he

:57:54.:58:00.

cited the Charter. LAUGHTER. His lawyers said the charter was

:58:01.:58:19.

important... His lawyers made the argument that the charter was

:58:20.:58:23.

important because it went further than the European Convention of

:58:24.:58:25.

human rights and therefore was added protection. I won't read-out

:58:26.:58:32.

paragraph 80 of the judgment, which I'm sure the Secretary of State is

:58:33.:58:37.

familiar with, but as he knows, the court found in his favour that that

:58:38.:58:41.

was right, the charter did enhance his right side for that reason it

:58:42.:58:45.

distinguished -- it rejected the arguments of a distinguished QC who

:58:46.:58:52.

was the Prime Minister's QC. I am going to complete this point. So,

:58:53.:58:58.

when he says, will it make any difference? Yes, here it is. I

:58:59.:59:05.

suspect that the Secretary of State was still on the bench is further

:59:06.:59:10.

behind him, he would be talking to me over a cup of coffee, with

:59:11.:59:14.

others, about how we fiercely ensure that Clause 5.4 of this bill came

:59:15.:59:20.

out. I'm going to make progress, because I do know lots of people

:59:21.:59:23.

want to come in. I'm going to make progress. I give way. I'm most

:59:24.:59:31.

grateful to the right honourable gentleman, as he makes a very

:59:32.:59:34.

important point. I think, reading the mind of my right honourable

:59:35.:59:39.

friend, why he said, does it matter? That's because he would insist that

:59:40.:59:42.

the general principles of EU law being preserved wood repay it, but

:59:43.:59:49.

if they're not judge a suitable because they are not founded in our

:59:50.:59:54.

courts, that need would evaporate. Exactly the point that the right

:59:55.:59:59.

honourable friend -- member made earlier on. To remove the right to

:00:00.:00:08.

do something through remedy means you have achieved nothing. Will the

:00:09.:00:14.

honourable gentleman be good enough to explain why it is that other

:00:15.:00:19.

distinguished gentleman, namely Tony Blair and Lord Goldsmith, fought so

:00:20.:00:24.

resolutely to exclude the charter of fundamental rights from the Lisbon

:00:25.:00:26.

Treaty and furthermore failed because their protocol did not

:00:27.:00:37.

actually work. No. I spent 20 plus years as a human rights lawyer

:00:38.:00:43.

interpreting and applying acts from the charter where it made a real

:00:44.:00:46.

difference to people's lives, as the Secretary of State will know. Let me

:00:47.:00:53.

move on to devolved powers. At the moment, devolved powers are limited

:00:54.:00:58.

and upon withdrawal, it ought to be that the devolved institutions would

:00:59.:01:01.

have power over things falling within their devolved fields but

:01:02.:01:04.

Clause 11 prevents that and diverts powers which ought to go to

:01:05.:01:07.

Edinburgh, Cardiff or Belfast to London where they are to be hoarded.

:01:08.:01:11.

Fundamentally the wrong approach but totally consistent with the

:01:12.:01:16.

Government approach of grabbing power and avoiding scrutiny. On that

:01:17.:01:22.

topic, let me deal with exit date, a crucially important day under the

:01:23.:01:26.

bill. It's the day upon which the European Communities Act is

:01:27.:01:31.

repealed, it's the day upon which the role of the European Court of

:01:32.:01:34.

Justice is extinguished in our law. That matters hugely. Whatever your

:01:35.:01:43.

long-term view, that matters hugely. It matters particularly for

:01:44.:01:46.

transitional matters. I heard the Secretary of State say this morning

:01:47.:01:50.

that he did want an arrangement for transitions which was as close as

:01:51.:01:55.

possible to the current arrangement. I think he knows in his heart of

:01:56.:01:58.

hearts that will almost certainly involve a role for the European

:01:59.:02:02.

Court of Justice, he would say temporarily. He knows that. So the

:02:03.:02:07.

exit date, the date on which the role of the court is extinguished,

:02:08.:02:13.

is crucially important. Without it, you can't transition on the terms

:02:14.:02:17.

that the Secretary of State was suggesting this morning. Well, you

:02:18.:02:20.

might not be able to, and he knows it. Control over exit date is

:02:21.:02:27.

therefore hugely important, Mr Speaker. Control over exit date. Who

:02:28.:02:34.

has control? Bring back control. You might think Parliament on this very

:02:35.:02:41.

important issue. But, no, enter Clause 14.

:02:42.:02:53.

Exit day means such a day as the Minister of Crown may by regulations

:02:54.:03:05.

appoint. And the sole power of the Minister. Anybody simply passing

:03:06.:03:13.

this bill is prepared to be a spectator on the question of what

:03:14.:03:16.

the transitional measures should be and how they operate. That is a huge

:03:17.:03:27.

issue. The Secretary of State said it was silly for me to raise this

:03:28.:03:31.

issue earlier in relation to the transitional relations insofar as

:03:32.:03:35.

they may relate to us continuing to be in a customs union and single

:03:36.:03:39.

market. If this bill is enacted and we are outside of the ECJ and we are

:03:40.:03:45.

not subject to EU law, there we are effectively ruling out single market

:03:46.:03:49.

and Customs union for the transition. How does that give

:03:50.:03:52.

stability and certainty to British businesses? This is the conundrum

:03:53.:03:57.

the Secretary of State and this bill has got into. If exit date is March

:03:58.:04:06.

2019, and it's very difficult to see how you transition on terms similar

:04:07.:04:13.

to those that we are run. What do you do? You could push exit day two

:04:14.:04:18.

years down the line, because it can be chosen. Well, if you don't do

:04:19.:04:24.

that, but you recognise that the ECJ is necessary, you end up repealing

:04:25.:04:30.

what was once the repeal Bill to put it back in again. That is the extent

:04:31.:04:35.

of the absurd powers in this bill. I will give way. I am very grateful to

:04:36.:04:40.

the right honourable gentleman for giving way. He's making an

:04:41.:04:46.

outstandingly concise and forensic speech asserting the difficulties in

:04:47.:04:49.

this bill and he's drawn attention to the problem with the definition

:04:50.:04:55.

of exit day. Does that problem also feed into the delegated legislative

:04:56.:05:02.

powers, because Clause 77 says ministers can make regulations under

:05:03.:05:07.

this section after the end of period of two years beginning with exit

:05:08.:05:12.

day. Now, if exit day is going to disappear down the line as he has

:05:13.:05:16.

indicated, does that not mean the power to make delegated legislation

:05:17.:05:20.

will continue for even longer than the Government says? It certainly

:05:21.:05:23.

could. The only way out of that is to have multiple exit days. You

:05:24.:05:30.

might think I'm joking. But somebody who drafted this bill thought of

:05:31.:05:36.

that because that is conceivable. Multiple exit days, all chosen by a

:05:37.:05:40.

minister, not by Parliament. Mr Speaker, let me draw to a conclusion

:05:41.:05:45.

the combined effect of the provisions of this bill would reduce

:05:46.:05:50.

MPs to spectators as power pours into the hands of ministers and the

:05:51.:05:54.

executive. It's an unprecedented power grab. Rule by decree is not a

:05:55.:05:59.

misrepresentation. It's an affront to Parliament and to accountability.

:06:00.:06:03.

The name of this bill was changed from the Great Repeal Bill to the EU

:06:04.:06:07.

withdrawal bill. The word great should have been preserved but it

:06:08.:06:12.

should have been changed to the great power grab bill. Labour voted

:06:13.:06:18.

for the Article 50 act. That's because we accept the referendum

:06:19.:06:22.

result. As a result, the UK is leaving the EU. That we are leaving

:06:23.:06:29.

is settled. How we leave is not. This bill invites us to surrender

:06:30.:06:33.

all power and influence over that question to the Government and to

:06:34.:06:36.

ministers. That would betray everything that we are sent here to

:06:37.:06:42.

do. Unless the Government makes significant concessions before we

:06:43.:06:47.

vote on Monday, Labour has tabled a reasonable amendment to vote against

:06:48.:06:52.

the bill. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The original question was that the bill

:06:53.:06:58.

now be read a second time, since when an amendment has been proposed

:06:59.:07:01.

as on the order paper. The question is that the amendment be made. Mr

:07:02.:07:11.

Kenneth Clarke. Mr Speaker, the spokesman just reminded us that this

:07:12.:07:15.

bill was trailed for a very long time as the Great Repeal Bill, which

:07:16.:07:19.

was a very unlikely title. Fortunately, when it comes here, it

:07:20.:07:26.

repeals hardly anything at all, which is one blessing. But one thing

:07:27.:07:31.

it does repeal is the European Communities Act of 1972, which is a

:07:32.:07:38.

particular irony for myself and no doubt for the honourable member full

:07:39.:07:42.

ball so that as well, as we well remember that act and I then was a

:07:43.:07:49.

Government whip, engineering mainly by working with the Jenkins faction

:07:50.:07:56.

of the Labour Party how we were able to get that vote through against the

:07:57.:08:02.

Eurosceptics who were then on our backbenchers. So it's an irony that

:08:03.:08:06.

a complete mirror image debate presents itself to me rather many

:08:07.:08:15.

years later. But my starting point is again where the right honourable

:08:16.:08:19.

gentleman just finished. I have to accept that we are going to leave

:08:20.:08:23.

the European Union. I accept that because this House, passed by a

:08:24.:08:30.

large majority, the resolution to enact Article 50. I argued and voted

:08:31.:08:35.

against it, but it went through and it is idle to pretend that

:08:36.:08:39.

politically now it's going to be possible for that to be reversed.

:08:40.:08:44.

But the question now is how we do so. Now, I quite accept the basic

:08:45.:08:51.

premise of my right honourable's friend the Secretary of State, that

:08:52.:08:58.

technical legislation is going to be required to make sure it is

:08:59.:09:01.

practicable to get a smooth legal transition. I don't think that this

:09:02.:09:05.

piece of legislation confines itself to that aim, as has just been said.

:09:06.:09:13.

The result is that a bill of this kind is necessary and I think we're

:09:14.:09:21.

going to have devote for it. But the question is, is this particular form

:09:22.:09:27.

of the bill remotely acceptable? Now, I studied the amendments put

:09:28.:09:31.

down by the official opposition and indeed by large numbers of other

:09:32.:09:35.

members. And my conclusion was that I found myself agreeing with the

:09:36.:09:41.

overwhelming majority of the sentiments and opinions being put

:09:42.:09:47.

forward in all those amendments. The one thing that gave me a problem was

:09:48.:09:54.

they all begin with declines to give a second reading to the bill, which

:09:55.:09:59.

does give rise to the problem is that it would stop any possibility

:10:00.:10:05.

of making the changes required. But, I have to say this. Mind as I am at

:10:06.:10:14.

the moment to contemplate voting for second reading, I am going to need

:10:15.:10:18.

some assurances before we get there, in particular, that there is going

:10:19.:10:25.

to be sufficient movement to some of the unanswerable points that are

:10:26.:10:31.

being made about Parliamentary democracy and a smooth transition to

:10:32.:10:37.

whatever the alternative is for this bill to be anything other than a

:10:38.:10:40.

wrecking piece of legislation if it proceeds forward. I could consult

:10:41.:10:46.

myself with the thought, I haven't decided yet, I'm actually going to

:10:47.:10:51.

listen to the debate, which is a very rare feature in this House, but

:10:52.:10:56.

I am going to listen to the debate, because of course if we were to

:10:57.:11:00.

defeat the second reading, well, the Government would be obliged to bring

:11:01.:11:03.

back another bill to try to achieve the same purpose and if the

:11:04.:11:08.

Government isn't going to move in the next two days of debate, well I

:11:09.:11:13.

think we may have to force it to go back to the drawing board and try

:11:14.:11:22.

again as to how to produce a bill which is consistent with our

:11:23.:11:25.

parliamentary traditions and actually does give this House the

:11:26.:11:30.

control that leaders of the Leave Campaign during the referendum kept

:11:31.:11:34.

telling the British public they were anxious to see. Now, I'm not going

:11:35.:11:41.

to give way because there are large numbers of people wanting to speak

:11:42.:11:46.

and I just want to touch briefly on this time constraint. When we sat

:11:47.:11:48.

through the European Communities Act, I've no doubt the honourable

:11:49.:11:53.

member for Boll Sauber like me sat three weeks and weeks, days and days

:11:54.:12:02.

-- the honourable member for Bolsover that the days and days of

:12:03.:12:08.

debate. It was not constrained by this Blairite notion of family

:12:09.:12:13.

friendly hours and timetables and all this kind of thing. I don't want

:12:14.:12:17.

to go back to the all-night filibustering and some of the

:12:18.:12:22.

nonsense that led to those practices being discredited. That is not

:12:23.:12:28.

suitable in the 21st-century. But this Government began the process by

:12:29.:12:33.

trying to argue that the Royal prerogative enabled it not even to

:12:34.:12:38.

bring Article 50 before the House and its been trying to reduce

:12:39.:12:42.

Parliamentary scrutiny and votes ever since the whole thing started.

:12:43.:12:47.

So, let me give a first simple example. I raised it with the

:12:48.:12:51.

Speaker a few moments ago the question of the five o'clock rule.

:12:52.:12:55.

Apparently we've all got to stop at five o'clock this afternoon. Well,

:12:56.:12:59.

it would reassure me about the Government's intentions if the

:13:00.:13:04.

opportunity was taken to lift it now. The Leader of the House only

:13:05.:13:10.

have two rise at some time in the next hour or so and save the five

:13:11.:13:15.

o'clock rule is not going to be invoked to day and all these

:13:16.:13:19.

constraints on time which we are all facing will not be a problem. But, I

:13:20.:13:25.

hope the timetable motion for the bill also does not try to confine

:13:26.:13:32.

debate to a comic number of days, because the right honourable

:13:33.:13:37.

gentleman's speech a moment ago has shown how complex some of the

:13:38.:13:41.

debates are going to be. We don't want all to be told we've got to

:13:42.:13:46.

take apart in legal analysis in five minutes flat all be cut out by some

:13:47.:13:51.

quite unnecessary timetable. We've got at least until the end of 2019

:13:52.:13:55.

to get these procedures right. Now, briefly there are two broad

:13:56.:14:05.

issues. One of which I will leave alone. One of which is going to

:14:06.:14:11.

dominate today, the Henry VIII clause, the sweeping powers, the

:14:12.:14:14.

extraordinary nature of this legislation. I won't try to compete

:14:15.:14:20.

with what with respect was the brilliant speech of the Right

:14:21.:14:23.

Honourable friend leads for the opposition and I hope the next two

:14:24.:14:27.

days of debate will hear some reply. I'm sure my honourable friend the

:14:28.:14:32.

member for Beaconsfield will touch on that. My own information on

:14:33.:14:38.

clause seven and clause 17 is not up to the standards of what has just

:14:39.:14:43.

been demonstrated. I will then say one thing to my right honourable

:14:44.:14:47.

friend and he's colleagues who try to reassures what takes begged in

:14:48.:14:54.

response to that. I'm told that conversations will be held with my

:14:55.:14:57.

right honourable friend and right honourable friend before Broxton.

:14:58.:15:03.

Delighted about that. We are told that we will have reassurances about

:15:04.:15:06.

her ministers are going to use these powers. My right honourable friend

:15:07.:15:14.

defended the wording he got and didn't make the faintest concession.

:15:15.:15:22.

I was talking about the concessions on devolution or the bigger concerns

:15:23.:15:26.

about whether we are going to fritter away Parliamentary democracy

:15:27.:15:33.

in this house by Racing the -- passing the bill in its present

:15:34.:15:38.

form. My right honourable friend is one of the members I would trust to

:15:39.:15:42.

seek to deliver what he is offering to ours. The reality as someone has

:15:43.:15:46.

said is we are all transient in politics. He will come under

:15:47.:15:50.

pressure from some of his colleagues. We have no idea who will

:15:51.:15:54.

be in office in 18 months' time in any particular post. The letter of

:15:55.:16:05.

the law will determine to what scope there is for parliamentary scrutiny.

:16:06.:16:09.

I don't want more assurances, I don't want more charm, what I want

:16:10.:16:22.

is positive amendments. Changes. Its reputation on this point of view if

:16:23.:16:28.

it takes the lead and produces the amendments and answers the points

:16:29.:16:30.

already made by the Right honourable and learn it member who has just

:16:31.:16:37.

spoken for the opposition and reassured us that the drafting was a

:16:38.:16:40.

misunderstanding and that better drafting can make it the no policy

:16:41.:16:46.

change, technically necessary bill that I would quite happily support.

:16:47.:16:52.

The second issue very briefly is the condition of staying in the single

:16:53.:16:57.

market and staying in the customs union during the transitional

:16:58.:17:02.

period. Of course we're going to have a transitional period. Of

:17:03.:17:06.

course it's got to be a smooth transition. Of course by the end of

:17:07.:17:14.

2019 were not going to negotiate a basis for future trading

:17:15.:17:18.

arrangements. I do think that just as the government has got to move,

:17:19.:17:23.

just as the opposition has moved. I made a speech on the Queen's speech

:17:24.:17:27.

debate explaining why I was in favour of staying in the single

:17:28.:17:31.

market, staying in the customs union, at least for the transitional

:17:32.:17:36.

period, and I Benat and said the various arguments that are routinely

:17:37.:17:39.

thrown out. I won't repeat any of that. But it does seem to me that

:17:40.:17:46.

there is only whisker of difference now, I don't deceive myself that I

:17:47.:17:50.

converted the Labour Party who have now put down an amendment identical

:17:51.:17:53.

to the arguments I was putting forward which they didn't then agree

:17:54.:17:56.

with when we were debating the Queen's speech, but when I look at

:17:57.:18:04.

the government's proposals they are remarkably near. We all know,

:18:05.:18:09.

British business knows that we need this smooth transition. We don't

:18:10.:18:17.

need change that we -- until we are certain we have acceptable new

:18:18.:18:20.

arrangements. I have looked at the position paper on customs

:18:21.:18:23.

arrangements put out by the government. This says, I will read

:18:24.:18:28.

one sentence "This could involve a new and time-limited customs union

:18:29.:18:36.

between the UK and the EU customs union based for on a shared external

:18:37.:18:42.

tariff and without customs procedures." I won't go on. There is

:18:43.:18:46.

an Asp salute whisker of difference between the government's paper and

:18:47.:18:50.

what the opposition are now saying and what every at the slightest

:18:51.:18:55.

common-sense, in my opinion, is saying. That we should stay in the

:18:56.:19:00.

single market and customs union until we know that we can smoothly

:19:01.:19:04.

transferred to some new and equally beneficial arrangement. Again, I

:19:05.:19:08.

would like some reassurances on that. I detect in this wording and I

:19:09.:19:17.

conclude, I detect in this wording and the amendment from the

:19:18.:19:21.

opposition, we're crawling towards that cross-party approach which is

:19:22.:19:24.

obviously going to be required in the national interest to settle

:19:25.:19:31.

this. It is absurd for the Labour Party to say that they are all

:19:32.:19:35.

agreed on the new policy that they have adopted. It is absurd for the

:19:36.:19:39.

Conservative Party to say we are all agreed on whatever it is the

:19:40.:19:42.

secretary of state is trying to negotiate in Brussels. LAUGHTER

:19:43.:19:51.

The public are not idiots. They know that both parties are completely and

:19:52.:19:55.

fundamentally divided on many of these issues with extreme opinions

:19:56.:20:01.

on both sides represented in the Cabinet and the Shadow Cabinet let

:20:02.:20:06.

alone on the backbenches. Let's, therefore, resolve this matter and

:20:07.:20:10.

make sure this bill doesn't rule out and make it impossible to stay in

:20:11.:20:14.

the single market and the customs union. Let's have some grown-up

:20:15.:20:17.

debate on the whole practical problem that we face and produce a

:20:18.:20:21.

much better act of Parliament than this bill represents for us at the

:20:22.:20:31.

moment. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Can I commend the right

:20:32.:20:40.

honourable member for Rushcliffe and the secretary of state for

:20:41.:20:41.

outstanding contributions to this debate. This process requires us to

:20:42.:20:48.

think fundamentally about what we think Parliament is for and what

:20:49.:20:52.

democracy is about. The Scottish National Party support as a

:20:53.:20:59.

fundamental principle the idea that the land of Scotland is in

:21:00.:21:02.

neighbourly invested in the people of Scotland. That is not for sale at

:21:03.:21:07.

any time to anybody. This bill seeks to use up and undermine that

:21:08.:21:13.

sovereignty. That fact alone would compel me to vote against the bill

:21:14.:21:19.

when it comes before us for a vote on Monday night. It compels anybody

:21:20.:21:23.

who believes in the sovereignty of the people and anybody who purports

:21:24.:21:26.

to be here on behalf of the people of Scotland to oppose the bill on

:21:27.:21:30.

Monday night regardless of which party is trying to get them to do

:21:31.:21:35.

something different. Given that it will be a labour amendment. I want

:21:36.:21:40.

to make a few comments. We will be supporting the amendment on Monday

:21:41.:21:45.

night with some hesitations. Given that 62% of our citizens voted to

:21:46.:21:49.

remain in the European Union, I'm certainly not ready to give up on

:21:50.:21:53.

that for the people of Scotland. I understand and respect the fact that

:21:54.:21:57.

two nations of the United Kingdom voted to leave, I would ask the

:21:58.:22:01.

members of people from those two nations to respect the fact that two

:22:02.:22:05.

nations voted to remain and those votes cannot simply be cast aside.

:22:06.:22:11.

There is a reference in the amendment to Parliamentary

:22:12.:22:14.

sovereignty. I respect for some people that is an important

:22:15.:22:18.

principle but that does not apply universally across the nations of

:22:19.:22:26.

these islands. Is he not aware... Is he not aware of the question that

:22:27.:22:32.

was on the ballot that we went to. It was a United Kingdom question. It

:22:33.:22:38.

was a United Kingdom vote. We voted as a United Kingdom to leave the

:22:39.:22:42.

European Union. That's what we decided. Don't you understand that?

:22:43.:22:50.

I don't know which part of the people of Scotland are sovereign the

:22:51.:22:56.

right Honourable gentleman opposite doesn't understand. The people of

:22:57.:23:03.

Scotland are sovereign. I would urge all members of Parliament for

:23:04.:23:06.

Scotland to respect that when the time comes. The final concern I have

:23:07.:23:10.

is in reference to the transitional period. I need to make some protest.

:23:11.:23:17.

Thank you. I warmly welcome the fact that we now have a lot more clarity

:23:18.:23:23.

from Labour about the benefit of membership of the single market and

:23:24.:23:28.

customs union. I welcome that the amendment. I'm disappointed that

:23:29.:23:32.

given everybody now knows that there is absolutely no reason for being

:23:33.:23:36.

out of the European Union means that you have to be out of the single

:23:37.:23:40.

market. I'm disappointed that Labour have not yet come around to the

:23:41.:23:45.

position that we should stay in the single market permanently after

:23:46.:23:47.

leaving the European Union. Having said that, the amendment of labour

:23:48.:23:53.

is a vast improvement on allowing the bill to go ahead unchallenged so

:23:54.:23:57.

we will be supporting the amendment on Monday evening. It's interesting

:23:58.:24:04.

if you look at the recent amendments, a huge powerful number

:24:05.:24:10.

of reasons have been come up with for rejecting this bill at this

:24:11.:24:14.

stage. It tells us that there is a huge number of serious and

:24:15.:24:17.

fundamental flaws in the bill which mean it cannot be allowed to go

:24:18.:24:22.

forward in its present format. If that gives a problem for government

:24:23.:24:27.

timetable is, then tough. The views of my constituents are far more

:24:28.:24:31.

important than the interests of the government managers. Particular

:24:32.:24:35.

weaknesses in this bill, some of which have been ably covered

:24:36.:24:39.

already. First of all the act of constitutional betrayal that the

:24:40.:24:44.

bill proposes. Against a Tory government in London the right to

:24:45.:24:50.

claw back any powers it fancies from the four nations of the United

:24:51.:24:54.

Kingdom. That is not just a detail of those who campaign for so long to

:24:55.:25:01.

have those parliaments established. It is a betrayal of the great

:25:02.:25:07.

parliamentarians of all parties. I'll give way now. The honourable

:25:08.:25:15.

member talks about representing Scotland. 1 million Scots voted to

:25:16.:25:19.

leave and a third of SNP voted to leave. So, what you're actually

:25:20.:25:26.

saying is that if you truly want to represent your constituents, you

:25:27.:25:31.

should respect the democratic will of the United Kingdom which we are

:25:32.:25:35.

all here to do. If the members opposite want to be strong of

:25:36.:25:42.

Scotland, I suggest they engage in the detail of the bill and not try

:25:43.:25:46.

to create a wedge between them and the United Kingdom. I happily see

:25:47.:25:51.

his 1 million votes to leave and raise it to 1.6 million voters who

:25:52.:26:08.

voted against. I'll take no more interventions from people whose

:26:09.:26:11.

position on the European Union has changed so radically over the last

:26:12.:26:15.

couple of years. Let me get back to my comments about the attempt to

:26:16.:26:19.

grab power back from the devolved parliaments for which so many others

:26:20.:26:25.

worked so hard to establish. Many of those who take the greatest credit

:26:26.:26:30.

for it. For example, the great Donald Dewar. I shudder to think

:26:31.:26:32.

what they must be thinking now when they see attempts have been made to

:26:33.:26:39.

completely emasculate the powers of those parliaments. It's a betrayal

:26:40.:26:45.

of the promises that certain people made to the people of Scotland just

:26:46.:26:50.

three years ago. The most powerful devolved parliament in the world,

:26:51.:26:54.

they said. Scotland should lead the union, they said. The parity of

:26:55.:27:00.

esteem and equal partnership of nations, they said. Mr Speaker, what

:27:01.:27:07.

definition are they using if the Prime Minister who takes a authority

:27:08.:27:11.

from this Parliament and decides it's beneath her status to even meet

:27:12.:27:17.

with members from the respective national parliaments. What

:27:18.:27:20.

definition of parity of esteem are they using? If there is a parity of

:27:21.:27:26.

esteem, trumpeted by the Tories less than year ago as the epitome of

:27:27.:27:30.

relations between our government hasn't met for seven months. I know

:27:31.:27:38.

it is completely coincidental. For my friend from sky and Lochaber to

:27:39.:27:43.

have a debate on the matter. Since then, the government have decided

:27:44.:27:46.

they are going to reconvene the GMC sometime in the autumn and I hope

:27:47.:27:49.

they won't fall back on the claim that autumn finishes on the 30th of

:27:50.:27:53.

November. They have given way to some pressure and I are going to

:27:54.:27:57.

reconvene it but they have done nothing about ignoring the national

:27:58.:28:01.

governments of Wales and Scotland and promised to act within one

:28:02.:28:06.

month. They broke that promise as they have broken so many promises to

:28:07.:28:10.

the peoples and parliaments and governments of those devolved

:28:11.:28:14.

nations. I will happily give way. with me that it would be very simple

:28:15.:28:18.

and straightforward for the Government to accept the reality of

:28:19.:28:27.

devolution and where there is a parity of powers, those powers go

:28:28.:28:29.

directly to the devolved institutions? Absolutely, that's

:28:30.:28:35.

what devolution means. If the powers are currently devolved, they should

:28:36.:28:39.

remain devolved. If we can't trust the Tories to keep their word on

:28:40.:28:43.

something as simple as arranging a joint meeting of Government

:28:44.:28:47.

ministers, nobody in any of the devolved nations can trust

:28:48.:28:52.

assurances that the Draconian new powers in this bill will not be

:28:53.:28:56.

abused because our experience of promises from the party opposite

:28:57.:28:59.

suggest we cannot take them at their word unless the legislation is

:29:00.:29:02.

nailed down so tightly that they can't have any wiggle room at all to

:29:03.:29:07.

go back on their word. We have heard a lot of rhetoric about some issues

:29:08.:29:12.

needing a UK wide approach. I'm interested to wonder how the UK wide

:29:13.:29:18.

approach to agriculture and animal welfare and food standards is going

:29:19.:29:22.

to work in Northern Ireland, because regardless of what the legislative

:29:23.:29:25.

or constitutional position is going to be, a matter of business survival

:29:26.:29:29.

is that the food industry in Northern Ireland will follow the

:29:30.:29:32.

same standards that are followed in the Republic of Ireland. They will

:29:33.:29:35.

follow the same standards as applying the European Union, so we

:29:36.:29:38.

are talking about different animal welfare standards in Northern

:29:39.:29:43.

Ireland to the rest of the United Kingdom. I can't really see that

:29:44.:29:50.

working. But a UK wide approach is being shown to mean in practice that

:29:51.:29:54.

a Prime Minister and a few hand-picked colleagues get the right

:29:55.:29:58.

to dictate to the peoples of the violence and two elected

:29:59.:30:01.

governments. For example, it was the need for a UK wide approach that led

:30:02.:30:07.

to the Scottish fishing industry being sold out when we first join

:30:08.:30:11.

the EU and there is a serious danger that a UK wide approach will lead to

:30:12.:30:15.

those fishermen being sold out again in the process of leaving. My second

:30:16.:30:19.

concern is about the all-encompassing powers set out in

:30:20.:30:23.

Clause nine, for example, which I think was superbly torn to shreds by

:30:24.:30:28.

the Shadow Secretary of State in the minutes ago. One of the backbenchers

:30:29.:30:37.

describe this on Wednesday as an unprecedented and there's no other

:30:38.:30:41.

way it can be described. 649 MPs will be expected to stand by and

:30:42.:30:45.

watch while a single minister with a single signature can make new

:30:46.:30:51.

legislation, including the right to make legislation that should require

:30:52.:30:54.

an act of Parliament and the only requirement on the Minister to be

:30:55.:30:57.

allowed to do that is that she or he thinks the legislation is a good

:30:58.:31:02.

idea. Mr Speaker, when we have ministers that pink welshing on the

:31:03.:31:07.

Dubs Amendment is a good idea, I'm looking for a slightly harder test

:31:08.:31:11.

than whether or not they think something is a good idea. These new

:31:12.:31:16.

powers have been referred to, Mr Speaker, as Henry VIII powers. Well,

:31:17.:31:21.

Henry VIII was a despot, no interest in democracy, he thought Scotland

:31:22.:31:25.

and Wales were just places to be conquered and trampled on, so

:31:26.:31:30.

perhaps Henry VIII is not such a bad name for what some of the Government

:31:31.:31:35.

are doing. But I think using that nickname hides the danger of these

:31:36.:31:41.

powers. Despite his murderous deeds, a lot of people see Henry VIII as a

:31:42.:31:45.

kind of pantomime villain that even got to star in his own carry on

:31:46.:31:50.

film, but the fact of the matter is that the powers in this bill are

:31:51.:31:54.

more 1984 than carry on Henry. The powers that bear his name are

:31:55.:31:59.

anything but funny. They represent a significant erosion Parliamentary

:32:00.:32:03.

democracy and those members present who believe in the doctrine of

:32:04.:32:06.

Parliamentary sovereignty, the powers in this bill are utterly

:32:07.:32:11.

incompatible with Parliamentary sovereignty. It's not taking power

:32:12.:32:19.

back to Parliament, this bill threatens to destroy Parliamentary

:32:20.:32:24.

sovereignty. The powers are designed to allow ministers to bypass all

:32:25.:32:28.

pretext Parliamentary scrutiny. It's even possible that we could see an

:32:29.:32:34.

act of Parliament received the Royal assent one day and then be repealed

:32:35.:32:37.

by a minister at the next day, simply because the Minister thinks

:32:38.:32:40.

that's a good idea. The Government will argue that delegated powers are

:32:41.:32:44.

an essential part of modern Government. I agree. We don't have

:32:45.:32:49.

an issue with using delegated legislation, we do have an issue

:32:50.:32:53.

with allowing delegated legislation to be abused to bypass proper

:32:54.:32:56.

scrutiny and the only way this House can be satisfied that the powers

:32:57.:33:00.

will not be abused is it the legislation is reworded to make it

:33:01.:33:04.

impossible for them to be abused in that way. The third significant

:33:05.:33:08.

weakness that has been touched on concerned our membership of the

:33:09.:33:11.

biggest trade agreement in the world and we're going to throw that away.

:33:12.:33:16.

In Scotland, we are talking about the loss of 80,000 jobs with the

:33:17.:33:20.

loss of ?11 billion a year coming into our economy as a result. The

:33:21.:33:26.

figures for the rest of the UK will be proportionate to that, simply to

:33:27.:33:29.

pacify the extreme right wing of the Conservative Party and their allies

:33:30.:33:33.

whose obsession with the number of immigrants has blinded them to the

:33:34.:33:36.

massive social and economic benefits that these EU migrants have built to

:33:37.:33:43.

my constituency and to every constituency in the United Kingdom.

:33:44.:33:47.

Be sure amorality of the isolationist, xenophobic approach

:33:48.:33:51.

that the incentives are trying to drag us down is there for everyone

:33:52.:33:57.

to see. It's not just immoral, it's daft. It threatens to destroy our

:33:58.:34:02.

economy. Already we are seeing key sectors in industry and public

:34:03.:34:06.

sector workers struggling to recruit the staff they need. There was a

:34:07.:34:18.

great of people being offered ?200 million just to recruit NHS staff.

:34:19.:34:27.

?200 million could build a hospital in my constituency and it's being

:34:28.:34:31.

paid to a private firm to try to repair some of the damage done by

:34:32.:34:41.

this. We still get anti-European hysteria and rhetoric from the

:34:42.:34:43.

Government benches and with the Government still refusing to give

:34:44.:34:47.

European National is the absolute and plumbing guarantees that they

:34:48.:34:50.

deserve if they choose to come and live here. Those agreement

:34:51.:34:53.

difficulties are going to become much, much worse before they get any

:34:54.:34:59.

better. The Secretary of State once our EU partners to be imaginative

:35:00.:35:02.

and flexible. I would ask him to apply those same flexibility to his

:35:03.:35:08.

Government's attitude to membership of the single market. I mentioned

:35:09.:35:12.

the plight of EU nationals and another major concern which has been

:35:13.:35:17.

raised in particular by the Secretary of State -- Shadow

:35:18.:35:20.

Secretary of State is that this bill threatens to and in the right is not

:35:21.:35:25.

just of EU nationals but regardless of nationality or citizenship, who

:35:26.:35:29.

lives on these islands. I hear the promises from the Government. We've

:35:30.:35:32.

had promises from the Government before. They are not worth the paper

:35:33.:35:38.

they are written on, even if they are not written on paper at all.

:35:39.:35:43.

Yesterday, we have the usual Sharad of a Tory backbencher asking a

:35:44.:35:46.

planned question so that the Prime Minister could confirm how

:35:47.:35:50.

successful she had been bringing down unemployment. She went so far

:35:51.:35:54.

as to say that and implement is at its lowest in four decades. Let's

:35:55.:35:58.

just think about that. The Prime Minister is telling that

:35:59.:36:01.

unemployment is lower now than it was when we went into the European

:36:02.:36:07.

Union and the single market. How can the Conservative Party boast about

:36:08.:36:09.

having almost done away with unemployment and then say that

:36:10.:36:14.

immigrants are to blame for the huge unemployment problem we have? Free

:36:15.:36:19.

movement of people, membership of the single market has not caused

:36:20.:36:22.

unemployment. It has caused implement that has benefited our

:36:23.:36:28.

economy, helped our businesses to bribe, it keeps our schools open.

:36:29.:36:34.

All evidence suggests that the most successful, wealthiest and happiest

:36:35.:36:37.

countries in the world, those with the highest standard of living

:36:38.:36:41.

further to the material of things that really matter are those which

:36:42.:36:44.

are open and inclusive. The Government are trying to move us

:36:45.:36:47.

away from that position to becoming one of the most isolationist and

:36:48.:36:51.

isolated economies in the world. There are only five economies in the

:36:52.:36:56.

world that are not part of a trade agreement and none of them are

:36:57.:37:01.

countries we would like to see as an example. To conclude, Mr Speaker,

:37:02.:37:05.

the Government's man trapped under Brexit has been taking back control.

:37:06.:37:12.

That's not going to happen, at least not in the way people hoped it would

:37:13.:37:16.

happen. Because it's not about taking back control to 650 people

:37:17.:37:20.

who collectively hold a democratic mandate from their constituents to

:37:21.:37:24.

represent them. It's about taking back control from this Parliament

:37:25.:37:29.

into the hands of a few ministers. It's about taking back control from

:37:30.:37:33.

the devolved and elected National assemblies of Scotland, Wales and

:37:34.:37:36.

Northern Ireland and putting it back into the hands of a few chosen

:37:37.:37:40.

members of a political party that can't get elected into Government in

:37:41.:37:48.

Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. It allows ministers to use up

:37:49.:37:52.

authority in Parliament, giving them overall power to over guide the will

:37:53.:37:57.

of Parliament. A lot has been said about the red lines in the Brexit

:37:58.:38:01.

negotiations, Mr Speaker. I will give him one headline from the

:38:02.:38:04.

sovereign people of Scotland. Our sovereignty is not for sale. It is

:38:05.:38:09.

not for sale today, it will not be for sale at any time in the future,

:38:10.:38:15.

not to anyone, at any price. This bill seeks to take that sovereignty

:38:16.:38:19.

promise more than any bill that has been presented to this Parliament

:38:20.:38:24.

over 300 years ago. I would urge any MP who claims to act on behalf of

:38:25.:38:32.

Scotland, every MP who believes in sovereignty of democratic

:38:33.:38:34.

institutions to vote with us and against the bill on Monday night.

:38:35.:38:44.

Order, a ten limit -- a ten minute limit on backbench speeches will now

:38:45.:38:50.

apply. Iain Duncan Smith. Can I first of all in rising to support

:38:51.:38:53.

the bill in principle and in many cases in fact, but I will come back

:38:54.:38:57.

to more details on that, can I also support my right honourable friend,

:38:58.:39:04.

and as my right honourable friend at the dispatch box will remember in

:39:05.:39:07.

the lead up to the Maastricht debate, we had quite a long second

:39:08.:39:12.

reading debate and if not possible today, I wonder if through his good

:39:13.:39:20.

offices, to the powers that be, it might be possible on Monday to make

:39:21.:39:25.

even further extension to give more backbenchers the opportunity to

:39:26.:39:28.

speak. I remember that because we went through the night on the first

:39:29.:39:32.

day and then ended the second day at 10pm and everybody got to speak and

:39:33.:39:37.

there were as many people then he wanted to speak without the time

:39:38.:39:42.

limit. I make no criticism of you imposing a time limit on me as I'm

:39:43.:39:46.

sure I can work within it. I urged gently that there could be some

:39:47.:39:50.

scope for that even by Monday. I ride really to support this because

:39:51.:39:53.

I believe that this is clearly a necessary piece of legislation. We

:39:54.:39:57.

start from the simple present decision -- the simple provision

:39:58.:40:04.

that it is necessary to get all of the law is transposed into UK law

:40:05.:40:07.

applicable and actionable in UK law properly so that it is just

:40:08.:40:13.

miserable at the end of the day. That requires huge amount of action

:40:14.:40:18.

and there are pages and pages of laws. I was looking at it the other

:40:19.:40:23.

day and I said if we were to vote on everything in there we would have to

:40:24.:40:28.

have something in the order of 20,000 different boats and there is

:40:29.:40:31.

no way on earth that could possibly happen. I listened with great care

:40:32.:40:34.

to the right honourable gentleman he speaks for the opposition and I

:40:35.:40:36.

listened very carefully to his arguments and I thought it was a

:40:37.:40:39.

very well-balanced speech and he made his case about the need for

:40:40.:40:43.

change within the bill rather well. But I would argue that the Labour

:40:44.:40:48.

Party's position on this therefore did not fit with his speech. I go

:40:49.:40:56.

back to Maastricht, when the then John Smith led the Labour Party, and

:40:57.:40:59.

they supported, because he was a strong believer in the European, the

:41:00.:41:09.

Labour Party voted to support the legislation but then opposed

:41:10.:41:12.

elements of it in the committee stage that they thought needed

:41:13.:41:17.

changing. That is the position I think the Labour Party should be in.

:41:18.:41:21.

In other words, the reasoned way the Labour Party should behave is to

:41:22.:41:26.

reserve their position on second reading, subject to whatever changes

:41:27.:41:28.

they think are necessary within the committee stage to the detail of the

:41:29.:41:33.

bill and then make a decision on what they do one third reading. To

:41:34.:41:36.

come out and vote against the principle of the bill is debate

:41:37.:41:40.

against the idea of having to make these changes to European law to

:41:41.:41:44.

transpose them into UK law and that is the absurdity that they had got

:41:45.:41:50.

into. I know what it's like. I've been in opposition, the temptation

:41:51.:41:53.

behind the scenes to say, I'll tell you what, we could cause mayhem in

:41:54.:41:58.

the Government ranks by trying to attract some of their colleagues

:41:59.:42:00.

over to vote against second reading for us. Fine, they felt that, but it

:42:01.:42:04.

shows that the British public will look at this in due course and

:42:05.:42:08.

recognise that this is not a party that is ultimately fit for

:42:09.:42:11.

Government because the detail in this is not the issue. That becomes

:42:12.:42:20.

the issue once we get through the second reading. I accept and

:42:21.:42:23.

recognise that there are major changes which the Government has

:42:24.:42:25.

talked about possibly making and looking at within the bill. I

:42:26.:42:27.

observe that we are therefore not disagreeing about the need for this

:42:28.:42:32.

bill. That is why the House should support the bill going through. But

:42:33.:42:35.

there may be elements in here which needs and change and I notice also

:42:36.:42:40.

that the report that the right honourable and Leonard gentleman

:42:41.:42:43.

made mention of which came out this morning from the select committee on

:42:44.:42:47.

the Constitution in itself regaining its recommendations makes it quite

:42:48.:42:52.

clear, and it says so here, we accept that the Government will

:42:53.:42:57.

require some Henry VIII powers in order to amend primary legislation

:42:58.:43:01.

to facilitate the UK's withdrawal from the European Union. However,

:43:02.:43:06.

they do go on to say but the commensurate safeguard their levels

:43:07.:43:09.

of scrutiny need also to be in there. So the debate about this is

:43:10.:43:11.

not the need... I would just like to mention that it

:43:12.:43:23.

would not be an useful to look at the names that are on the

:43:24.:43:27.

constitutional committee, and make a judgment about their enthusiasm for

:43:28.:43:33.

our leaving the EU. I am grateful for that intervention. I know she

:43:34.:43:37.

will make a powerful case in support of the Bill and she is quite right.

:43:38.:43:41.

I want to come back to that point, the base year is that there has

:43:42.:43:46.

never been any great sweep of power is coming through the Henry VIII

:43:47.:43:48.

procedures is completely and utterly wrong. The reason why I came so

:43:49.:43:55.

concerned about what is happening under the European Union treaty, is

:43:56.:43:58.

that when you look at section two of the EU act, I want to quote this, it

:43:59.:44:03.

says quite clearly that without enactment, they are to be given

:44:04.:44:08.

immediate legal effect, and it goes on to say, that by order in Council,

:44:09.:44:15.

that is not this procedure in the Bill. Any procedure, rules or

:44:16.:44:22.

regulations skin, make provision. We have sat for 40 years with this and

:44:23.:44:27.

we have been content to let those kind of rules and regulations be

:44:28.:44:36.

made. Yes, up until the Maastricht Treaty, when qualified majority

:44:37.:44:42.

voting came in, we became ruled takers under this provision, which

:44:43.:44:47.

is never been more powerful in history at all. I will say

:44:48.:44:50.

cautionary note in my colleagues on other side of the House, it is not

:44:51.:45:02.

so. The key element... I have great sympathy for because he has great

:45:03.:45:08.

critique of EU law. That can't be justification for two runs making a

:45:09.:45:11.

right. The fact is that we do not need to legislate in this fashion in

:45:12.:45:16.

order to carry out the technical task of leaving the EU. I remain

:45:17.:45:20.

after Lieb amused as to why the legislation has been drafted in this

:45:21.:45:26.

form. I am not asking the two runs to be made right. The principle of

:45:27.:45:31.

this Bill is what I support and the need for it. I also recognise during

:45:32.:45:36.

the course of this committee stage there will be need to review how

:45:37.:45:40.

this checks and balances are introduced. I hope that is done

:45:41.:45:46.

properly. I gave indication that there is scope to look at that. The

:45:47.:45:51.

argument is not the powers in the Bill, the debate is, how do we

:45:52.:45:57.

reassure ourselves as a parliamentary democracy, that those

:45:58.:46:00.

checks and balances exist, such the given a profound nature of what is

:46:01.:46:05.

happening, that we can manage to do both and balance, and not delay the

:46:06.:46:11.

necessary changes to be made. The opposition is in a peculiar

:46:12.:46:15.

position, that the Scottish Nationalists are in a ridiculous

:46:16.:46:19.

position. Three years and years, they have sat content to see all the

:46:20.:46:25.

powers exercised in Brussels without so much assay. The moment we talk

:46:26.:46:29.

about leaving the EU and bringing those powers back, that they feel a

:46:30.:46:34.

trade somehow and that they don't exercise those powers. Where were

:46:35.:46:37.

they in the last 40 years where those powers were given away's I

:46:38.:46:46.

won't give away, I don't want her to rip embarrass yourself any more

:46:47.:46:50.

after that ridiculous argument. My idea men in this is that they are

:46:51.:46:58.

not being stolen away, and the government that evolves down to the

:46:59.:47:01.

more be more than they've ever had before and that reinsurance has been

:47:02.:47:04.

granted on giving. I also make the point, I think it's a rather good

:47:05.:47:08.

paper that the select committee on the constitution makes this morning,

:47:09.:47:12.

the other that I think is important comes back to the three

:47:13.:47:16.

recommendations I want to make in closing. I think there are three

:47:17.:47:20.

areas I hope the government will look at. The first is on the

:47:21.:47:22.

application of statutory instruments. I know the government

:47:23.:47:29.

has given away to consultation on the idea that now you have an

:47:30.:47:34.

explanatory memorandum to that what will explain what happens before and

:47:35.:47:41.

afterwards. I did me to explain the point as to why the government sees

:47:42.:47:49.

this instrument as necessary. It is important for people to quickly

:47:50.:47:51.

recognised the purpose and the government for doing this. I hope

:47:52.:47:54.

they might think about that. I make another recommendation. When I was

:47:55.:48:01.

at the Department for Work and Pensions, there existed a statutory

:48:02.:48:04.

body called the social security advisory committee. Their role was

:48:05.:48:07.

to look at legislation as it was about to happen. Entente awkwardly

:48:08.:48:12.

as you are the Secretary of State. Nonetheless, they make

:48:13.:48:15.

recommendations. I would us just have a look again at that process.

:48:16.:48:20.

It may offer the government a way of just reassuring that these things

:48:21.:48:24.

they are about to do, may well be absolutely necessary. Here's the

:48:25.:48:28.

deal, we're asking that whatever is done under the purposes powers of

:48:29.:48:32.

this Bill I'd done with one simple point. That is, to transpose

:48:33.:48:38.

existing law with existing affect so that that affect does not change. If

:48:39.:48:43.

they single exam question is asked of a body like that. Is this

:48:44.:48:48.

instrument doing that in their opinion? That might help reassure

:48:49.:48:52.

Parliament that that was the case. I only urge that because it works in

:48:53.:48:57.

the one area of detail and consequential legislation, I wonder

:48:58.:48:59.

if that is an area to do. The last one want to make and conclude, is

:49:00.:49:07.

the final recommendation, is the point about the exit date. I am one

:49:08.:49:14.

of those that thinks we all really to have that in the Bill. There is a

:49:15.:49:20.

reason for that. I think, he's right, on its hinges just about

:49:21.:49:24.

everything for example the sunset clauses. The government has moved a

:49:25.:49:33.

long way on that. It is important to put an end to powers on that. The

:49:34.:49:38.

question is is it's two years. The real question is when does the two

:49:39.:49:43.

years start and when does it end. I would answer a Lord of questions

:49:44.:49:55.

about how far the. I'm big supporter of the Bill and leaving the EU, I

:49:56.:49:59.

would urge the government to think very clearly about what they do with

:50:00.:50:07.

that Bill. I would urge the government in the principle of this

:50:08.:50:10.

Bill, in the practicality and the way this is implemented. I recognise

:50:11.:50:15.

that the government, through the committee stage, will look again

:50:16.:50:18.

carefully at some of the necessity to give some of those checks and

:50:19.:50:22.

balances as assurances to this House. All others want that, because

:50:23.:50:27.

none of this want to defy the will of the British people. Which is to

:50:28.:50:31.

leave, leaving a small way, in a manner that does not bother business

:50:32.:50:35.

and upset individuals on their rights and accepted ways of

:50:36.:50:40.

accessing and working. I accept the government and congratulate them to

:50:41.:50:48.

getting this point. I would just say to the right on gentleman, this is

:50:49.:50:54.

not about to find the will of the British people, it is about how

:50:55.:50:57.

sensibly we will give effect to it. It seems a long time ago now, the

:50:58.:51:03.

referendum campaign, but we had endless assertions during that

:51:04.:51:06.

leaving the EU would be easy and straightforward. Anyone who looks at

:51:07.:51:09.

this Bill before us today can see with their own eyes, just how wrong

:51:10.:51:15.

they were. I would also say, that it must be dawning on ministers now,

:51:16.:51:20.

despite the brave face that the Secretary of State habitually put on

:51:21.:51:23.

things, that their association that they would be able to negotiate the

:51:24.:51:28.

whole thing, a comprehensive agreement, covering all the things

:51:29.:51:31.

we need and all the benefits we want by the end of the Article 50 process

:51:32.:51:38.

is not now going to be possible. The reason why both of these assertions

:51:39.:51:45.

have failed is not because of want of effort. But fundamental agreement

:51:46.:51:50.

about what the policy in the government should be. Which has

:51:51.:51:53.

resulted in delay. And secondly, because the task is Byzantine in its

:51:54.:52:00.

complexity. I do not envy civil servants who were working very hard.

:52:01.:52:05.

I don't envy the House the task that confronts us. But we do have a duty

:52:06.:52:11.

to be honest with each other and the British people about the choices we

:52:12.:52:14.

face, the consequences of those choices, and the fact that we have

:52:15.:52:18.

to do all of this against the ticking clock. Now, the Bill, this

:52:19.:52:26.

Bill, apart from repeal of the 1972 European Communities Act, is not

:52:27.:52:30.

about whether we are leaving the EU, appoint the Secretary of State made

:52:31.:52:34.

in his opening speech. That decision was taken in a referendum and given

:52:35.:52:38.

effect by the triggering of Article 50 and we will leave by the end of

:52:39.:52:43.

March 20 19. What the Bill is about is to ensure that our law is in

:52:44.:52:47.

shape when we leave. All others except that there is a need to do

:52:48.:52:51.

this. All others therefore except that a Bill is necessary. But that

:52:52.:52:56.

does not mean that Parliament should accept this Bill. Which is the 2017

:52:57.:53:09.

equivalent of the Statute of proclamations of 1539. The committee

:53:10.:53:16.

did urge him, I would politely remind him, to publish a draft, and

:53:17.:53:20.

I think she would be having fewer difficulties now if he had done so.

:53:21.:53:25.

Because its flaws and weaknesses are fundamental and if I may say-so,

:53:26.:53:34.

brilliantly exposed by my right honourable friends from the front

:53:35.:53:38.

bench. This Bill is not about taking back control. If ministers continue

:53:39.:53:42.

to fail to take Parliament's role seriously, we will have deep

:53:43.:53:47.

continued to prod and push and persuade, or in the case, to gently

:53:48.:53:57.

threaten, so that ministers understand that this Parliament, the

:53:58.:54:04.

backbenchers Parliament it has been christened, and rightly so, they

:54:05.:54:06.

will have no choice but to listen to what Parliament has to say. In the

:54:07.:54:12.

detail of the Bill, if they do remain unamended, seven, eight and

:54:13.:54:18.

nine would grant ministers new and unprecedented powers. Ministers are

:54:19.:54:22.

asking us to give them a legislative blank cheque and they are saying we

:54:23.:54:26.

should not do so. How could we accept a Bill where on the one hand,

:54:27.:54:32.

ministers say look at the safeguards. They are in the

:54:33.:54:36.

legislation, and then at the same time, proposing another part of the

:54:37.:54:38.

Bill to give themselves the power to remove every one of those safeguards

:54:39.:54:44.

if they are so inclined. How's that Bill a sense of confidence and

:54:45.:54:47.

reassurance? I accept there is a balance to be struck. Between giving

:54:48.:54:52.

the ministers the latitude and flexibility to do what needs to be

:54:53.:54:56.

done, and Parliament having control to scrutinise and decide. But the

:54:57.:55:01.

breadth and scope of the powers as they stand do not achieve that, that

:55:02.:55:08.

is why the Secretary of State will have a very long queue outside his

:55:09.:55:12.

office. If he wants to save himself some time, he should come forward

:55:13.:55:18.

with own amendments. Now, there is... I will give way once... Thank

:55:19.:55:25.

you forgiving way. This sounds that the honourable gentleman agrees with

:55:26.:55:29.

the thrust of what is being attempted, at the detail and

:55:30.:55:32.

mechanics. Will he not be voting for the Bill at second reading, and

:55:33.:55:36.

seeking to amend it to address some of his concerns in committee? Della

:55:37.:55:41.

mac no, I want. Unless the government moves, the floors are so

:55:42.:55:48.

fundamental, the government should go away and it's time homework

:55:49.:55:51.

again. There is not a single person in this chamber that does not except

:55:52.:55:56.

that legislation is required to undertake the task. We are saying,

:55:57.:56:01.

it is just not this legislation before it is. There is a huge

:56:02.:56:05.

difference between on the one hand, a statutory instrument that says

:56:06.:56:08.

some regulation, delete the words commission, and insert the words for

:56:09.:56:13.

the Secretary of State for rural affairs. A statutory instrument

:56:14.:56:19.

which, to take a specific example, will give responsibility for

:56:20.:56:22.

oversight and enforcement of air quality legislation which derives

:56:23.:56:27.

from the EU directive to an existing public body. What assurance can

:56:28.:56:32.

ministers give is that whatever body is given that responsibility, is

:56:33.:56:36.

going to have festival the same effective enforcement powers as the

:56:37.:56:40.

commission has had, through what it has been able to do, including

:56:41.:56:46.

ultimately taking cases to the European Court of Justice. And will

:56:47.:56:51.

give the public the same power to hold that body and the government to

:56:52.:56:54.

account if there is continuing lack of progress and making sure our air

:56:55.:57:00.

is pure enough to breed. If that is not abided for, -- enough to. Many

:57:01.:57:16.

people have said this Bill is going to have to produce a mechanism for

:57:17.:57:21.

sifting the proposals come forward so that we can distinguish between

:57:22.:57:26.

the absolute straightforward and frankly noncontroversial, and those

:57:27.:57:30.

that raise really quite important issues of policy so that we, as

:57:31.:57:32.

Parliament can do our job. Does he agree with the proposition

:57:33.:57:44.

put by my right honourable friend forging feared that the SSA 's Sea

:57:45.:57:47.

is a clear model of such a mechanism? It was an interesting

:57:48.:57:53.

proposal that the right honourable gentleman put forward but I think

:57:54.:57:58.

personally, others can give advice, but at the end of it,

:57:59.:58:03.

parliamentarians have to do this if doing or a body that together by

:58:04.:58:10.

parliamentarians. Very quickly. Would the right honourable gentleman

:58:11.:58:15.

agree that the existing joint committee on statutory instruments

:58:16.:58:19.

could be the very body to do this exact work of tree and sifting? That

:58:20.:58:26.

would be one possibility and I hope the Government would listen to all

:58:27.:58:28.

the suggestions coming forward and come forward with a proposal. I

:58:29.:58:36.

welcome what the Secretary of State said in relation to my point about

:58:37.:58:43.

Parliament voting on withdrawal and the exercise of powers under Clause

:58:44.:58:48.

nine and, if on reflection, he was kind enough to say it was a logical

:58:49.:58:53.

point, I also think it's necessary, perhaps he would put that on the

:58:54.:59:00.

face of the bill. I agree absolutely with the point made by my right

:59:01.:59:05.

honourable friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras about the

:59:06.:59:08.

Charter for fundamental rights. It needs to be brought across into our

:59:09.:59:13.

law, not least because the Secretary of State relied upon it in the case

:59:14.:59:19.

that he brought. Can I also say that the same argument applies to the

:59:20.:59:22.

environmental principles that were set out in the Lisbon Treaty. Now,

:59:23.:59:26.

if members look at the explanatory memorandum, it has an illustrative

:59:27.:59:31.

list of directly affected rights that arrive from EU treaties that

:59:32.:59:35.

the Government says it intends to bring across under Clause four but

:59:36.:59:41.

it does not include the provisions of the Lisbon Treaty which cover

:59:42.:59:44.

environmental principles and protection and I stay to ministers

:59:45.:59:49.

that will need to be remedied. Finally, Mr Speaker, I want to turn

:59:50.:59:54.

to the state of the negotiations which will have a huge impact on the

:59:55.:59:58.

way this bill is used. The Secretary of State told Andrew Marl last

:59:59.:00:02.

Sunday that this is, and I quote, the most complex negotiation

:00:03.:00:07.

probably ever but certainly in modern times, and he is of course

:00:08.:00:13.

right. Which begs the question, why ministers, I'm sorry to say, pretend

:00:14.:00:17.

that a conference of relationship can now be negotiated in the ten and

:00:18.:00:25.

a half or so months that now remains because here we are 15 months after

:00:26.:00:31.

the referendum, six months on from triggering Article 50, and as we

:00:32.:00:35.

know from the Secretary of State's statement on Tuesday, we haven't yet

:00:36.:00:39.

sorted out the money, citizens rights in Northern Ireland. Michel

:00:40.:00:43.

Barnier has been absolutely clear that negotiations must be completed

:00:44.:00:48.

in ten and a bit months' time so that everyone involved can look at

:00:49.:00:53.

the deal. We have got to take a view. Other parliaments have got to

:00:54.:00:56.

take a view. The European Parliament must take a view and the Council of

:00:57.:01:00.

ministers. The Government must now have realised that it was never and

:01:01.:01:09.

is not now going to be possible to negotiate a special perspective that

:01:10.:01:12.

will cover all of the issues that need to be addressed. So, given, Mr

:01:13.:01:17.

Speaker, that there will inevitably be lots of outstanding issues come

:01:18.:01:23.

the end of the talks in 2018, given that leaving without a deal would

:01:24.:01:28.

mean falling off a cliff edge with absolutely disastrous consequences

:01:29.:01:31.

for the British economy, surely it is now playing that we will have to

:01:32.:01:38.

have transitional arrangements and that these will have to do --

:01:39.:01:46.

involve staying in the customs union and the single market for a time if

:01:47.:01:50.

we are to avoid the kind of disruption that businesses have

:01:51.:01:54.

repeatedly warned the Government about. Now I realise that this

:01:55.:01:58.

truth, this self-evident truth is going to come as a shock to some

:01:59.:02:02.

people, a bitter disappointment. And I don't know how ministers are going

:02:03.:02:07.

to break it to them, presumably gently, bit by bit. But it is going

:02:08.:02:15.

to have to happen because only by doing this will be as a nation have

:02:16.:02:20.

the chance at the time to negotiate the comprehensive free trade and

:02:21.:02:23.

market access agreement that businesses want and our economic

:02:24.:02:32.

future depends upon. In British constitutional history, there are

:02:33.:02:36.

few examples of bills of such historic significance as this. Since

:02:37.:02:41.

the mid-19 80s, I have been arguing for legislative sovereignty in

:02:42.:02:44.

respect of EU legislation, as indeed with my amendment on the 12th of

:02:45.:02:53.

June 1986, even under the pie minister ship of Margaret Thatcher,

:02:54.:02:59.

but I was not then allowed even to debate it let alone move it. Then we

:03:00.:03:05.

had Maastricht, Neath, Amsterdam, Lisbon, and together with other

:03:06.:03:10.

tributes and I pay tribute to the McGann -- and together with other

:03:11.:03:15.

colleagues, and I pay tribute to them again, here we are today. I

:03:16.:03:24.

circulated something even before the referendum that said we need to

:03:25.:03:29.

repeal the European Community that 1972 and we need to transpose EU law

:03:30.:03:35.

into UK law when treaties cease to apply under Article 50. However,

:03:36.:03:42.

contrary to the reasoned amendment by the opposition, this bill, the

:03:43.:03:47.

bill of the Government, will emphatically protect Parliament

:03:48.:03:55.

sovereignty precisely because it is an active sovereignty and it repeal

:03:56.:04:03.

the European Communities Act which has overridden Parliament. Indeed,

:04:04.:04:11.

the referendum bill itself was authorised by acts of parliament by

:04:12.:04:15.

no less than 6-1 in the House of parliament and the hard-core 50 --

:04:16.:04:26.

the Article 50 was again a act of sovereignty which was passed by

:04:27.:04:30.

almost all members of the opposition. This was reinforced when

:04:31.:04:42.

86% of votes in the general election went to those in favour of the

:04:43.:04:55.

referendum result. Not merely participated in. We should therefore

:04:56.:05:00.

be deeply disturbed at the official opposition should now seek to

:05:01.:05:04.

decline to give a second reading to this bill, cynically claiming that

:05:05.:05:07.

they respect the EU referendum result. In fact, there are amendment

:05:08.:05:15.

defies belief. As the snail asserts in Alice and Wonderland, so today

:05:16.:05:20.

the official opposition, if I may quote from Alice in Wonderland,

:05:21.:05:25.

would not, could not, would not, could not, would not join the dance.

:05:26.:05:30.

But this is a serious dance. This is not Alice in Wonderland. This is a

:05:31.:05:34.

real dance implementing the democratic decision of the British

:05:35.:05:37.

people and the United Kingdom as a whole. The reasoned amendment fails

:05:38.:05:41.

to convert and the simple fact which is that Parliamentary sovereignty of

:05:42.:05:45.

no less embedded in this bill banning the European Communities Act

:05:46.:05:49.

itself, which in the very pursuance of sovereignty repealed are then

:05:50.:05:55.

voluntary acceptance under sections two and three of the 1972 act.

:05:56.:06:01.

Indeed, Lord Bridge make the voluntary basis of that act crystal

:06:02.:06:06.

clear, even to the point of the House of Lords striking down even an

:06:07.:06:10.

act of Parliament, namely the merchant shipping act at that time,

:06:11.:06:14.

because of its inconsistency with the European Community act 1972.

:06:15.:06:22.

Now, in 1972, therefore, we also, by virtue of the historic invasion of

:06:23.:06:26.

our constitutional arrangements, acquiesced in the subversion to the

:06:27.:06:34.

European Union of this House and all this, even without a referendum,

:06:35.:06:38.

which we did have, of course, when we passed the referendum and got the

:06:39.:06:41.

endorsement of the British people under an act of Parliament passed in

:06:42.:06:47.

this House. Furthermore, the 1972 act absorbed not only a vast swathe

:06:48.:06:55.

of existing treaties and laws, but also the dogmatic assertions made by

:06:56.:07:02.

the European Court on the supremacy of EU law itself over our

:07:03.:07:07.

constitutional status. A whole list of cases can be listed asserted by

:07:08.:07:16.

the European Court over our Parliament and sovereignty. This was

:07:17.:07:22.

made even worse by the White Paper which preceded the 72 act itself,

:07:23.:07:29.

which pretended, I'd almost say by deceit, that it would not only be

:07:30.:07:32.

essential to our national interest to maintain the detail and we would

:07:33.:07:37.

never give it up, because to retain it, they said, it would be essential

:07:38.:07:42.

to our national interest and without it, it would even impair the very

:07:43.:07:46.

fabric of the European union itself. They understood what it was about.

:07:47.:07:50.

They knew it would destroy the European Union if they imposed a

:07:51.:07:55.

restriction on us being able to veto legislation. Since then, the EU's

:07:56.:07:59.

competences happen fastly extended. As for the Henry VIII procedures in

:08:00.:08:03.

the bill, and I hear what my honourable friend the Member for

:08:04.:08:09.

Broxton said about what I said in 2013, but I am talking about the EU

:08:10.:08:14.

specific legal jurisdiction and the context in which we are discussing

:08:15.:08:18.

this in relation to the 1972 act. Yes, we could have reservations

:08:19.:08:23.

about elements of Henry VIII procedures, but when you come to

:08:24.:08:28.

this, the biggest power grab of all time in British constitutional

:08:29.:08:31.

history has been the 72 act itself and is incorporated all EU law

:08:32.:08:39.

accumulated before, from 1956 right the way three to 1972, and my right

:08:40.:08:48.

honourable friend the Member for Rush Clift was cajoling people to

:08:49.:08:51.

move down the route of subverting our entire history into these new

:08:52.:08:59.

arrangements which subverted the constitutional history of this

:09:00.:09:04.

entire house. Can I briefly remind my honourable friend of the

:09:05.:09:08.

Maastricht Treaty and his constitution to the Maastricht

:09:09.:09:14.

Treaty being very similar to ones he making there. I don't remember him

:09:15.:09:18.

being so enthusiastic with the speed in which he went through the House

:09:19.:09:26.

leaving no detail. When did this conversion to the new prompt

:09:27.:09:30.

procedure take place? I am so glad my honourable friend made that point

:09:31.:09:33.

because I would like to endorse what he was saying earlier. I would like

:09:34.:09:39.

to see these proceedings being extended past 5pm tonight and I will

:09:40.:09:47.

not have the opportunity to make the speech as long as I did on the

:09:48.:09:53.

second reading of Maastricht, which was about two hours, but I do think

:09:54.:09:57.

this is quite different in character from the Maastricht bill because

:09:58.:10:00.

then we were dealing with extensions of competences, whereas now we are

:10:01.:10:02.

dealing with the repeal of sovereignty and competency. I simply

:10:03.:10:06.

make the point that within Maastricht, we were told time and

:10:07.:10:10.

time again whilst we have long procedures for debate, the outcome

:10:11.:10:13.

could not be in doubt, because to be a member of the European Union and

:10:14.:10:19.

all of what was agreed in the Maastricht Treaty would come

:10:20.:10:23.

straight into UK law, regardless of what this Parliament decided they

:10:24.:10:26.

were against. Absolutely, and that is the principle. The Henry VIII

:10:27.:10:31.

arrangement with respect to this bill is in fact a mirror in reverse

:10:32.:10:38.

of what was done in 1972 in absorbing all that legislation into

:10:39.:10:42.

our own law and applying it said that it can never be changed. You

:10:43.:10:50.

can't repeal it until you get to this bill. Indeed, I ought to add

:10:51.:10:56.

that it would be impossible for us to be able to translate all the

:10:57.:11:03.

legislation by primary legislation although, as it's already been said,

:11:04.:11:09.

we will have essentially important primary legislation on fisheries

:11:10.:11:12.

which has already been promised. Action 22 of the European Community

:11:13.:11:17.

's act allows EU law to have legal effect in the UK domestic law by

:11:18.:11:24.

secondary are delegated legislation. Section 24 of the European

:11:25.:11:31.

Communities Act, this secondary legislation by sovereignty of

:11:32.:11:35.

Parliament is expressly given the power as may be made by the act of

:11:36.:11:39.

Parliament itself and their as signposts of examples including, if

:11:40.:11:45.

I may say, to the opposition and to the Shadow Secretary of State,

:11:46.:11:49.

including section 75 of the Freedom of Information Act, where the

:11:50.:11:51.

amendment was made within the act itself and was passed by the Labour

:11:52.:11:56.

Party itself, so let's not get hypocritical about this under any

:11:57.:11:59.

circumstances. This is not as unusual as it's made out to be and

:12:00.:12:05.

indeed I would go one further to say that the point was specifically made

:12:06.:12:08.

by the Minister Geoffrey Rippon during the passage of the 1972 act

:12:09.:12:15.

on the 15th of February, where he acknowledged the novelty, and it was

:12:16.:12:19.

novel in those days, and he added, as I conceive it, the power conceded

:12:20.:12:26.

by section 24 would only be used in exceptional circumstances. Well, we

:12:27.:12:29.

now know that at least according to the EU database 12,000 legislators

:12:30.:12:37.

brought in since 1973. At the wild assertion that the Henry VIII

:12:38.:12:41.

provisions in this bill are an infringement of sovereignty and for

:12:42.:12:43.

this reason the amendment should be completely disregarded.

:12:44.:12:51.

Furthermore I would add that Henry VIII powers have been used for

:12:52.:12:59.

enactment after enactment,... There is another important point to be

:13:00.:13:03.

made, and that is what the European scrutiny committee report with the

:13:04.:13:11.

transparent city of making in 2016 which goes to the heart and manner

:13:12.:13:16.

of the policy of laws that the UK has been increasingly invaded not in

:13:17.:13:21.

process, but in practice which we will revert under this Bill. That we

:13:22.:13:28.

will abolish under this Bill. What this establishes is that the

:13:29.:13:35.

majority of treaties is, that the majority of actor taken by

:13:36.:13:39.

consensus, behind closed doors, not with any proper record, not with

:13:40.:13:43.

proper speeches, not with transparency, not with voters they

:13:44.:13:47.

are recorded in Hansard, that is the fundamental difference, and it is a

:13:48.:13:52.

travesty of democratic decision-making process and is the

:13:53.:13:55.

reason why this Bill is so necessary. The people of this

:13:56.:14:00.

country have had inflicted up posed upon them, legislation that has been

:14:01.:14:04.

made behind closed doors, without knowing who has made them, for what

:14:05.:14:09.

reason and how. So, the fact is there are also political

:14:10.:14:14.

undercurrents which need to be brought out here. Because who makes

:14:15.:14:21.

those decisions behind closed doors is incredibly important. As the

:14:22.:14:33.

Professor of economics at the University, another report

:14:34.:14:36.

demonstrates the extent to which the UK has been on the losing side of an

:14:37.:14:40.

ever increasing proportion of time is up to 2015, and I'm bound to say

:14:41.:14:44.

that the UK has been on the losing side more than any other state over

:14:45.:14:49.

that period of time. Lastly on the charter, I've made my point that the

:14:50.:14:53.

opposition have no credibility on the question of the Charter

:14:54.:14:58.

whatsoever. I would simply finally say this. This is a historic moment

:14:59.:15:02.

and I'm glad to be part of it at last! It is a pleasure to follow the

:15:03.:15:13.

right honourable member, he, amongst all of this, spent more scrutinising

:15:14.:15:20.

EU legislation and EU directives, and EU scrutiny committee which I

:15:21.:15:24.

have been pleased to be a member of some years very often has felt very

:15:25.:15:29.

alone. We have been up there in the committee room going over document

:15:30.:15:35.

after document, realising that actually, very little of what we

:15:36.:15:42.

could do to change. I think that the public looking in today, may well be

:15:43.:15:49.

asking, some of them, if only this interest and intense scrutiny and

:15:50.:15:54.

worry about Henry VIII clauses and statutory instruments, if only a

:15:55.:15:59.

quarter of that time had been spent by Parliament in examining some of

:16:00.:16:02.

those thousands of EU directives and regulations that have been simply

:16:03.:16:12.

imposed on us as a country. As the honourable member has just said,

:16:13.:16:16.

very much what was happening in the EU was behind closed doors. We were

:16:17.:16:23.

one of 28 countries, we were always being outvoted. Many and many of

:16:24.:16:31.

those times we had to take those decisions and take it on board

:16:32.:16:36.

without being able to change. Now, I do know that there is genuine

:16:37.:16:46.

concern amongst men -- many of my colleagues about some of the ways

:16:47.:16:51.

that we might be scrutinising and using some of the Henry VIII clauses

:16:52.:16:55.

and statutory instruments. I agreed very much with the right honourable

:16:56.:16:59.

member that there are mechanisms that we can actually bring people

:17:00.:17:06.

together on this, one of the problems has been that there is

:17:07.:17:11.

genuinely amongst those of us who voted to leave, and were pleased at

:17:12.:17:15.

the result, do feel that while there are a lot of people that say we

:17:16.:17:20.

accept the result of the referendum. But actually behind-the-scenes they

:17:21.:17:23.

are doing every little bit of work they can do to try and, not

:17:24.:17:29.

necessarily prevent is leaving, but make it as difficult as possible, to

:17:30.:17:35.

make it as tedious as possible, to get the public saying, oh dear have

:17:36.:17:44.

we done the right thing? That is coming from the media and all the

:17:45.:17:47.

people who were strongly in the remaining camp. That is doing a

:17:48.:17:52.

disservice to our country. What we have to do in negotiating with the

:17:53.:17:56.

EU is show this country is united, that this parliament is united.

:17:57.:18:02.

Because we are leaving in March 2019, whatever happens, whatever

:18:03.:18:07.

people on my side of Parliament say, we will be leaving in March 20 19.

:18:08.:18:12.

We want to leave in a way that is going to maximise certainty and

:18:13.:18:18.

confidence in business, maximise the confidence of all those people, many

:18:19.:18:22.

of them who voted remain, but have decided now that they want to get on

:18:23.:18:27.

with it, let's do it and speak up for all the positive things that are

:18:28.:18:30.

happening. All the dire warnings of the things that were going to go

:18:31.:18:35.

wrong, we should now be recognising that they were wrong and we need to

:18:36.:18:38.

be being as positive as possible. I look back at my last, the last

:18:39.:18:50.

gunmen in a lot of members served, we actually doubled the number of

:18:51.:18:53.

statutory instruments the new law. We are being a little bit

:18:54.:18:57.

hypocritical on this side of the fence on this issue. I know there

:18:58.:19:05.

are people on my side that are genuinely so upset that we are going

:19:06.:19:08.

to be leaving the EU. But this is a time that we should be putting the

:19:09.:19:13.

interests of the country first and deciding that we want to work with

:19:14.:19:19.

the Government, and that means the Government want to work with us as

:19:20.:19:22.

well. That needs a positive attitude from our front bench, and I've been

:19:23.:19:27.

pleased to say that there has been positive attitudes. I do worry now,

:19:28.:19:32.

that this is going against the principle, and voting against second

:19:33.:19:37.

reading, is, no matter whether there are some people who genuinely feel

:19:38.:19:41.

this is the right thing to do. This will be seen, out there, in the

:19:42.:19:46.

public, by Labour voters, many Labour voters who came back to us

:19:47.:19:55.

having fraternised with you UK IP for some time. They will think that

:19:56.:20:00.

we're not really serious foot leaving the European. I am very

:20:01.:20:05.

disappointed that we will not be supporting the pill on Monday night.

:20:06.:20:11.

-- the Bill on Monday night. Some of my colleagues feel they should be

:20:12.:20:14.

supporting it, even if they are going to support the recent

:20:15.:20:19.

amendment, because this second reading is the principal. Then in

:20:20.:20:23.

our new clauses we can probe some of the problems that there are,

:20:24.:20:29.

undoubtedly, about the way this scrutiny process will happen. Michel

:20:30.:20:38.

Barnier has gone on, and many people have mentioned it today, that the

:20:39.:20:42.

clock is ticking. It is ticking, but it is actually taking the EU as much

:20:43.:20:46.

as it is ticking for us here in the UK. It seems now to me, that the EU

:20:47.:20:53.

negotiators, not necessarily individual countries, and we will

:20:54.:20:56.

see over the next few months changes in some of those EU countries that

:20:57.:21:00.

really want to get a good deal with us and now it's in their interest.

:21:01.:21:05.

What we are seeing is that the only thing that is at the top of the EU

:21:06.:21:09.

negotiators minds at this moment is money. They know how much they are

:21:10.:21:15.

going to miss our money. I think that tells us something about what

:21:16.:21:20.

the EU has been all about. They want to keep our money coming in for as

:21:21.:21:27.

long as possible. Any transition period, I will only accept any kind

:21:28.:21:32.

of transition period that on day one we are leaving the EU that we are

:21:33.:21:36.

stopping paying any more money. That's not to say there might be

:21:37.:21:40.

some things that legally, I'd like to see the detail, I like the EU to

:21:41.:21:47.

come up with every detail of why we should be paying something back,

:21:48.:21:51.

then we need to be clear that we're not going to pay anything more after

:21:52.:21:58.

we leave the EU. I give away. I entirely agree with the honourable

:21:59.:22:02.

lady. That she also agree that probably the EU doesn't want to talk

:22:03.:22:05.

about trade, because in practice they're going to want tariff barrier

:22:06.:22:10.

free trade if they are at sensible, and they think they can get money

:22:11.:22:15.

out of this if they want over themselves? Dilemma I think the

:22:16.:22:18.

unreliable member is right, money seems to be the crucial way they are

:22:19.:22:25.

trying to use and I hope that our negotiators will stand up to that

:22:26.:22:30.

and stop having this, allowing the media and those people who want to

:22:31.:22:33.

make every little bit of negotiation into some kind of conflict, it is

:22:34.:22:38.

always at the EU negotiators are doing the right thing, and somehow

:22:39.:22:41.

we're not doing the right thing. I wanted to be the other way round. I

:22:42.:22:46.

want is to be positive about our negotiations, because in the end we

:22:47.:22:51.

can get a good deal by proclaiming how strong the UK is, how well

:22:52.:22:57.

respected we are, how strong our City of London is, how we know that

:22:58.:23:00.

already despite the fact that we're leaving in 2019, companies are still

:23:01.:23:07.

coming to invest here. There is a very positive message, but it's not

:23:08.:23:11.

getting out. I know lots of people want to speak, so I will end by

:23:12.:23:15.

saying that I think the public today, and I'm not a lawyer, and I

:23:16.:23:20.

know there's a lot of lawyers in here who are loving every minute of

:23:21.:23:23.

this, because it's the kind of thing they love. I'm not a lawyer, the

:23:24.:23:31.

vast majority of the lawyer -- public are not lawyers. They will be

:23:32.:23:35.

judging all of this, whatever our party politics, they will be judging

:23:36.:23:40.

this on whether we are doing what is in the long-term best interests of

:23:41.:23:43.

our country. I do not believe that playing some kind of political game,

:23:44.:23:47.

about whether we can vote for this because it might look to some people

:23:48.:23:53.

in our party that we are standing up to the Government. This is about our

:23:54.:23:59.

future of our country. We, on the Labour side, should be voting for

:24:00.:24:02.

the second reading of this Bill on Monday night and then challenging

:24:03.:24:05.

and changing if we can during committee stage. Thank you. Mr

:24:06.:24:13.

Speaker, I entirely agree with the honourable lady, we do not have any

:24:14.:24:17.

legal obligation to pay more money, there is no moral obligation and

:24:18.:24:23.

there is no diplomatic advantage in offering money. If the EU gets the

:24:24.:24:27.

idea that we might pay them a bit of money, they will be even more

:24:28.:24:30.

unreasonable, because that would be a way of forcing more money out of

:24:31.:24:37.

this. What I wish to say on this very important debate, is that this

:24:38.:24:43.

Bill should satisfy most remain voters and mostly voters. I

:24:44.:24:47.

understand that it doesn't satisfy some MPs who have their political

:24:48.:24:51.

agendas in games to play. But they should listen to their constituents

:24:52.:24:53.

and think about the mood of the country and the mood of business and

:24:54.:24:58.

those that we represent. We have had crocodile tears shed for myself and

:24:59.:25:04.

my right honourable friend 's who want to leave and are very pleased

:25:05.:25:08.

with Leave. Surely we must understand that we're not getting

:25:09.:25:12.

the Parliamentary democracy that we wanted with this piece of

:25:13.:25:15.

legislation. I'd like to reassure all colleagues in this House that

:25:16.:25:19.

I'm getting exactly the piece of legislation I wanted which does

:25:20.:25:22.

restore Parliamentary democracy. What is in this Bill from the voters

:25:23.:25:26.

is that once this Bill has gone through and we have left the EU, the

:25:27.:25:30.

British people and their elected parliament would in future make all

:25:31.:25:36.

their laws for them. And we would be able to amend any law we don't like

:25:37.:25:40.

any more, we would be able to improve any law, and we are not able

:25:41.:25:44.

to do that. What we like about this Bill is that it gets rid of the 1972

:25:45.:25:50.

act, which was an outrage against Chrissy. Because as we heard it led

:25:51.:25:54.

to 20,000 different laws being visited upon our country, whether

:25:55.:25:59.

the people and parliament wanted them or not. Whether they had voted

:26:00.:26:03.

for or against them, or voted for them reluctantly, because they

:26:04.:26:07.

didn't want the embarrassment of voting against them and losing. This

:26:08.:26:12.

is a great day for United Kingdom democracy, that a piece of

:26:13.:26:15.

legislation is presented that will give the people and their parliament

:26:16.:26:19.

control over their laws. It is also a very good piece of legislation for

:26:20.:26:30.

remain voters because a lot of Remain voters during the campaign

:26:31.:26:37.

were not fully convinced, either for against the EU, but on balance

:26:38.:26:40.

thought they should stay in. They quite often like some elements of EU

:26:41.:26:45.

legislation or standards or requirements, particularly the

:26:46.:26:49.

Labour Party and their supporters like the employment guarantees that

:26:50.:26:53.

offered by employment law. There were other parties in interests that

:26:54.:26:57.

likely environmental standards. What this Bill does is that all those

:26:58.:27:04.

things that Remain voters liked about European legislation will

:27:05.:27:06.

continue and be good British law so they will still have the benefits of

:27:07.:27:09.

them. With the added advantage that we might want to improve them. We

:27:10.:27:13.

have full assurance from the Government that we don't want to

:27:14.:27:14.

repeal them. I am very surprised that the

:27:15.:27:24.

honourable member is saying how delighted he is that so many rights

:27:25.:27:30.

and responsibilities will now come under delegated legislation. I'm not

:27:31.:27:35.

sure if he recalls on the 1st of September 2012 as a member of the

:27:36.:27:39.

delegated Legislation committee on the criminal injuries compensation

:27:40.:27:43.

scheme that the honourable member himself called with all the other

:27:44.:27:47.

members of that committee from the Conservative benches for the then

:27:48.:27:51.

Minister to withdraw the motion that was coming towards them, and that

:27:52.:27:56.

did not happen. Simply a second committee was set up.

:27:57.:28:02.

The Speaker: Colleagues must have some regard to each other's

:28:03.:28:06.

interest. Interventions must be brief, they must not be many

:28:07.:28:13.

speeches. Let's come to this secondary point. I am happy that

:28:14.:28:20.

there is Parliamentary control. If Ministers seek to abuse the power

:28:21.:28:24.

under the legislation they are offering to this House. All they

:28:25.:28:28.

have to do is vote down the statutory instrument, and surely the

:28:29.:28:32.

opposition is up to being able to say, we intend to debate and vote on

:28:33.:28:38.

this issue. I remember doing that as a Shadow Cabinet Minister. We made

:28:39.:28:42.

sure there was a debate and a vote, and if it is the will of Parliament

:28:43.:28:46.

that Ministers have misbehaved, they will lose the vote and have to come

:28:47.:28:51.

forward with something else. I don't understand why my colleagues find it

:28:52.:28:55.

so difficult to understand Parliamentary democracy. What

:28:56.:28:59.

Ministers will be doing is bringing forward secondary legislation where

:29:00.:29:02.

they are fairly sure it is the will of the House that they go through,

:29:03.:29:05.

and they will all be in pursuit of this fundamental aim which is to

:29:06.:29:11.

guarantee all those rights and laws which are often more admired on the

:29:12.:29:15.

other side of the House than on this side of the House, but which we all

:29:16.:29:18.

agree should be transferred lock, stock and barrel, and are pledged to

:29:19.:29:30.

improve on, because that is something that we believe in and we

:29:31.:29:39.

offer that British people. Very kind of the right honourable gentleman to

:29:40.:29:43.

allow me to intervene. The right on gentleman has indicated to the House

:29:44.:29:49.

that those who voted for Remain as I did should be happy with this

:29:50.:29:54.

legislation because it brings over all EU legislation. Yes and no. On

:29:55.:30:00.

the stroke of midnight on exit day, we lose the general principles of EU

:30:01.:30:05.

law, principle such as proportionality, non-discrimination,

:30:06.:30:12.

respect the human rights. With respect, the general principles go.

:30:13.:30:15.

Does the right honourable gentleman agree that we should lose those very

:30:16.:30:20.

sound, good, valuable, general principles? I think those excellent

:30:21.:30:26.

principles are already reflected in both European law and British law

:30:27.:30:30.

and will therefore be built into our statutes and inherited from European

:30:31.:30:36.

law by this legislation, and they will inform the judgment of our

:30:37.:30:41.

judges. I am happy to judge our Supreme Court rather than the

:30:42.:30:45.

justices. I didn't like all of their judgments, but we accepted it and

:30:46.:30:49.

lived with it, and we are now in a stronger position as a result, as it

:30:50.:30:54.

happens, because we had a nine-month referendum debate in this House

:30:55.:30:58.

after the country had made its decision, and after an extensive

:30:59.:31:02.

rerun of the referendum, day after day we were doing the same subject

:31:03.:31:05.

and we were told we were never talking about it, Parliament wisely

:31:06.:31:10.

came to the decision that they did have to endorse the decision of the

:31:11.:31:13.

British people and get on at implement it. Time is now rather

:31:14.:31:19.

limited. So I am very much in favour of our Parliament making those

:31:20.:31:22.

decisions, those Admiral principles which will often be reflected in

:31:23.:31:28.

British law and already reflected in the legislation that are the subject

:31:29.:31:31.

of this bill today, and our judges will often be informed by them. If

:31:32.:31:36.

the judges start to use a principle we don't like a much, it is in the

:31:37.:31:40.

hands of ourselves in this Parliament issued new guidance to

:31:41.:31:44.

those judges and to say we are creating more primary legislation to

:31:45.:31:48.

make sure we have a bit more of this principle and less of that principle

:31:49.:31:52.

and maybe our disagreement with the judges, because it is important in

:31:53.:31:59.

the democracy that you have independent courts, and also that

:32:00.:32:02.

the sovereign people through their elected representatives can move the

:32:03.:32:05.

judges on by proper instruction, which in our case takes the form of

:32:06.:32:11.

primary legislation. There has been much made of how we implement

:32:12.:32:15.

whatever agreement we get if we have an agreement at the end of the now

:32:16.:32:22.

19 month process in the run-up to our exit on the 29th of March.

:32:23.:32:28.

Again, people are making heavy weather of this, because I think the

:32:29.:32:34.

main issue that is going to be eventually settled, I fear it will

:32:35.:32:37.

be settled much later than the present Parliament would like, is

:32:38.:32:41.

this issue of how we are going to trade with our former partners on

:32:42.:32:47.

the date that we depart. And there are two off-the-shelf models, either

:32:48.:32:52.

of which would work, one is that they do in the end decided that they

:32:53.:32:55.

don't want tariffs on all their food products coming into the UK market

:32:56.:32:59.

and all the cars coming into the UK market, and they don't want us

:33:00.:33:04.

creating new barriers against successful exports, so they agree

:33:05.:33:07.

with us that we should register existing arrangements as a free

:33:08.:33:10.

trade agreement at the World Trade Organisation, and it would be a

:33:11.:33:16.

ready-made free-trade agreement. I don't think there is time to do a

:33:17.:33:19.

special free-trade agreement that is as good as what we have the moment,

:33:20.:33:23.

you either have the current arrangements modified the WTO

:33:24.:33:27.

purposes when we are the union, or you don't. And if you don't, then we

:33:28.:33:31.

trade under World Trade Organisation terms where we are on the other side

:33:32.:33:36.

of the EU customs tariff arrangements, and we know exactly

:33:37.:33:39.

what that looks like because that is how we trade with the rest of the

:33:40.:33:45.

world as a EU member where they impose high tariff barriers on what

:33:46.:33:47.

would otherwise be cheaper food from the rest of the world, but if they

:33:48.:33:51.

decided on that option, then of course their food would be on the

:33:52.:33:54.

wrong side of that barrier as well and we would have to decide how much

:33:55.:33:59.

we wanted to negotiate tariffs down for food from other countries around

:34:00.:34:03.

the rest of the world, where they may offer us a better deal. But it

:34:04.:34:07.

would be quite manageable, food is the only sector that is really badly

:34:08.:34:12.

affected by the tariff proposals. Over half our trade would not be

:34:13.:34:25.

tarot fourball under -- tariff able under the terms. We will have to

:34:26.:34:32.

wait and see how that develops. I will give way. So is the gentleman

:34:33.:34:36.

saying that one of the basic and largest amounts that any household

:34:37.:34:39.

spends of its income, on food, could be affected by his proposals, but

:34:40.:34:44.

that's OK? I'm saying that either way we could get a good deal,

:34:45.:34:48.

because if they decide that they do want to impose tariffs on exports to

:34:49.:34:52.

ask a more we could take tariffs off food coming from other parts of the

:34:53.:34:57.

world. Under WTO rules, we can always take Tarasov, and we've get

:34:58.:35:00.

cheaper food from the rest of the world than we are currently getting

:35:01.:35:07.

from the EU. The other things is that we would of course have a

:35:08.:35:11.

massive, if we accepted the full tariff rules, we would have 12

:35:12.:35:15.

billion of tariffs, and I would recommend that all of that be given

:35:16.:35:19.

back to our consumers, so they wouldn't be any worse off at all

:35:20.:35:22.

because we would return the money to them and so they might even be

:35:23.:35:26.

better off if we then did free-trade deals that got food prices down from

:35:27.:35:30.

other parts of the world. My final point to the Government is that I do

:35:31.:35:36.

think that there is an issue over how you decide the date of our

:35:37.:35:41.

departure, and I think it is very clear that our date of departure

:35:42.:35:45.

will be the 29th of March 20 19. It will definitely be that if we don't

:35:46.:35:48.

have an agreement, which is still quite possible. I think should aim

:35:49.:35:54.

to still make that the date. We have 19 months left. That should be the

:35:55.:35:56.

transition from most of the things that need transition, that is surely

:35:57.:36:02.

what the time is there to achieve, and so I would recommend that that

:36:03.:36:06.

date be put in the Bill now, and we have the argument of substance over

:36:07.:36:09.

that date now, and I would recommend very strongly that we aim for that

:36:10.:36:14.

date, because on one scenario it will be that date anywhere, and on

:36:15.:36:21.

the other, it is highly desirable. People are always telling me we need

:36:22.:36:25.

to remove uncertainty, but if the laws remain in place, we also tell

:36:26.:36:29.

them it is definitely going to be the 29th of March 2019, that is

:36:30.:36:35.

taking a lot of uncertainty out of the system that would be very

:36:36.:36:37.

welcome. I find businesses now on the whole just want to get on with

:36:38.:36:42.

it, they want to know what they are planning for, they have got some of

:36:43.:36:45.

the details and they want as many details as possible, and if we put

:36:46.:36:50.

the firm date in, that would make it easier still.

:36:51.:36:54.

The Speaker: The time limit on backbench speeches will be reduced

:36:55.:36:58.

to five minutes after the next speaker. Yvette Cooper. Thank you,

:36:59.:37:02.

Mr Speaker. This has been a thoughtful debate, and I hope that

:37:03.:37:06.

the Government is in no doubt about the scale of Parliamentary concern

:37:07.:37:09.

about the way in which this bill concentrates power is in the hands

:37:10.:37:15.

of Ministers. The Secretary of State in his opening speech recognised

:37:16.:37:21.

that this bill is not what takes us out of the EU. Parliament has

:37:22.:37:25.

already voted for Article 50, which will take us out of the EU, and

:37:26.:37:30.

rightly voted for it as well. But Parliament also has a job to do to

:37:31.:37:36.

hold Ministers to account, and as drafted, this bill stops us doing

:37:37.:37:40.

that. It stops us standing up for democracy in this House, and it

:37:41.:37:43.

stops is making sure frankly that the Government doesn't screw up

:37:44.:37:49.

Brexit in the process and the decisions that it takes. Many of the

:37:50.:37:53.

purposes behind this bill are right, and Parliament will need to repeal

:37:54.:37:59.

the 1972 act, Parliament will also need to transfer the EU derived law

:38:00.:38:04.

into UK law. So as my right honourable friend has already said,

:38:05.:38:08.

we will have to have a bill, but not this bill, because there is a choice

:38:09.:38:13.

about the way that we do this, and we don't have to do this in a way

:38:14.:38:17.

that concentrate so much power in the hands of a small group of

:38:18.:38:22.

Ministers. And let me run through some of the concerns that we have.

:38:23.:38:29.

My right honourable friend the Shadow Minister said tighter

:38:30.:38:35.

forensic and powerful account of the Bill and the DCAL powers that it

:38:36.:38:40.

does give to Ministers, with no safeguards in place. Clauses seven,

:38:41.:38:46.

17, nine, would also the fact that it reduces British citizens' rights,

:38:47.:38:52.

and this bill weakens the protection for employment rights, equality

:38:53.:38:56.

protection, environmental standards, remedies and enforcement, crucially

:38:57.:39:00.

reducing right of redress, and it is both sad and telling that Ministers

:39:01.:39:06.

have chosen to exempt the Charter of fundamental rights. I hope that is

:39:07.:39:09.

something that will be reversed in something that they will change

:39:10.:39:13.

position on. But the greatest concern, the point I wanted to focus

:39:14.:39:19.

on, is this concentration of powers. Frankly it is not British, and

:39:20.:39:22.

Parliament will not be able to do its job to stand up for those

:39:23.:39:26.

citizens' rights against a powerful executive if this bill goes through

:39:27.:39:32.

in the way that it has been drafted. The unprecedented powers being given

:39:33.:39:36.

to Ministers in those clauses, in clause 17 in particular which trumps

:39:37.:39:39.

other clauses, powers to make a Tudor monarch proud, and everyone

:39:40.:39:45.

realises that the sheer extent of legislation does mean we will need

:39:46.:39:49.

both primary and secondary legislation as part of this process,

:39:50.:39:54.

but not to this scale, not with this lack of safeguards, not with this

:39:55.:39:58.

concentration of power in Ministers' hands. It will give them the power

:39:59.:40:02.

to change primary legislation for an incredibly broad range of reasons,

:40:03.:40:05.

on the test is simply whether Ministers think it is appropriate.

:40:06.:40:12.

Not whether it is needed, proportionate, essential, but only

:40:13.:40:14.

whether they consider it to be appropriate. The Bill also does

:40:15.:40:22.

include the power, slightly disingenuous remarks from the

:40:23.:40:24.

Secretary of State in the way that you presented this, because the Bill

:40:25.:40:27.

does include the power to create new criminal offences so long as the

:40:28.:40:34.

sentence is not more than two years. That is a serious power to give

:40:35.:40:39.

Ministers on some and it is so broad without Parliamentary scrutiny. And

:40:40.:40:41.

here are some examples of things that the Bill as it stands would do.

:40:42.:40:47.

I raised with the Secretary of State European Arrest Warrant earlier, and

:40:48.:40:51.

his response to my question about what the safeguards would be were

:40:52.:40:55.

simply to point to the Human Rights Act. The Human Rights Act which by

:40:56.:40:58.

the weather front bench opposite has pledged to get rid of, but the Human

:40:59.:41:02.

Rights Act is also not sufficient safeguards when we know that we

:41:03.:41:06.

should not be relying on the courts to have all of the safeguards when

:41:07.:41:09.

we in Parliament should be providing some of those safeguards as well.

:41:10.:41:14.

And when they know, too, that even within the scope of the Human Rights

:41:15.:41:19.

Act, that there is a huge range of potential policies on extradition,

:41:20.:41:23.

which Parliament should have a say on. I suspect that I am in fact

:41:24.:41:26.

probably closer to the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary on

:41:27.:41:30.

what extradition policy should be that many of her own backbenches.

:41:31.:41:35.

However, I still don't think that the Prime Minister and Home

:41:36.:41:38.

Secretary should have unlimited powers to decide what that

:41:39.:41:42.

extradition should be without being able to come back to Parliament and

:41:43.:41:46.

without Parliament having a say. Take again the investigatory Powers

:41:47.:41:50.

Bill, something that we debated forensically in this Parliament, it

:41:51.:41:55.

was an example of Parliament at its best. Detailed consideration the

:41:56.:41:58.

balanced security and liberty and changed the Bill as it went through,

:41:59.:42:01.

but in fact given that some of the genesis of that whole bill did

:42:02.:42:07.

depend on ECJ judgments and its relationship with EU legislation, in

:42:08.:42:13.

fact this bill before us now on the clauses before us could give

:42:14.:42:18.

Ministers the power to reopen the Investigatory Powers Act, to change

:42:19.:42:21.

the primary legislation that we chose to put forward with great care

:42:22.:42:27.

and to do so again, just through secondary legislation, without

:42:28.:42:28.

proper safeguards and checks in place.

:42:29.:42:32.

The ministers will have the power to rip up the working Time directive,

:42:33.:42:39.

if they so think it does not fit with what they think should happen

:42:40.:42:43.

as part of the appropriate arrangements after Brexit. And to

:42:44.:42:50.

say that I do not trust the Prime Minister and the Cabinet with these

:42:51.:42:56.

immense powers... You would expect me not to trust the Prime Minister

:42:57.:43:01.

and the Cabinet with these powers, but I think no parliamentarian

:43:02.:43:05.

should trust the Prime Minister and the Cabinet with these powers. We do

:43:06.:43:11.

not know who the next Prime Minister is going to be, when the next

:43:12.:43:15.

cabinet is going to be. This is about the powers in principle, not

:43:16.:43:19.

about who it is doing the job right now. For me, clause nine is

:43:20.:43:22.

particularly disturbing and should not even be in this bill. We should

:43:23.:43:28.

be legislating separately for the withdrawal agreement. We should have

:43:29.:43:31.

separate primary legislation, and yes, it will need to include

:43:32.:43:34.

secondary legislation. We shouldn't be doing it now when we don't know

:43:35.:43:42.

what it will be and we haven't had a vote to endorse the Government's

:43:43.:43:45.

negotiating strategy, to be honest we don't even know what it is in a

:43:46.:43:49.

whole series of areas and where there is not a statutory commitment

:43:50.:43:53.

for a vote on the withdrawal agreement either, we could start

:43:54.:43:56.

this legislation later, in the summer paps. When we have a bit more

:43:57.:43:59.

of a clue where this is going or in the autumn, when the withdrawal

:44:00.:44:05.

agreement is supposedly signed. Then we could put him primary

:44:06.:44:09.

legislation, the exit dates, we could put that into primary

:44:10.:44:13.

legislation, if the withdrawal agreement has been determined. It

:44:14.:44:16.

would allow us to do so in a way that gave ministers no more power

:44:17.:44:22.

than is strictly necessary, rather than to simply hand over

:44:23.:44:25.

unrestricted power to do the job. I will give way. Doesn't The right

:44:26.:44:29.

honourable lady accept this will be a negotiation conducted for us by

:44:30.:44:32.

the Government, so Parliament will be able to say we like the result or

:44:33.:44:36.

we don't like the result but we can't amend it, it's what the

:44:37.:44:42.

negotiation is? I think the honourable member's enthusiasm for

:44:43.:44:45.

blank cheques is not one I am comfortable with. I would also say

:44:46.:44:48.

to him, even if he is happy to simply support the Government and

:44:49.:44:57.

let them do whatever they want on the negotiations, he should be

:44:58.:44:59.

deeply uneasy about giving ministers unrestricted powers to implement the

:45:00.:45:01.

withdrawal agreement in whatever way they so choose. The Prime Minister

:45:02.:45:05.

has no mandate to do it this way. To be fair to her, she did ask for one.

:45:06.:45:09.

That was actually what the election was all about. It was about

:45:10.:45:15.

subverting the Cabinet and her party as well as this parliament, but she

:45:16.:45:19.

did not get that mandate. In fact, the Conservative Party lost seats.

:45:20.:45:23.

We have a hung parliament now. It would be even more irresponsible for

:45:24.:45:27.

a hung parliament to hand over such huge powers to the executive than it

:45:28.:45:31.

would in any other circumstances. Though we don't need to do it like

:45:32.:45:34.

this. We don't need to do the legislation in this way. And this is

:45:35.:45:39.

about more than just Brexit. This is also about the precedent that we

:45:40.:45:46.

set. Many honourable members have quoted precedent about secondary

:45:47.:45:49.

legislation and that strengthens the argument. We should not be setting a

:45:50.:45:53.

precedent for parliament and this stonking great lump of powers into

:45:54.:45:56.

ministers hand without any safeguards in place.

:45:57.:46:00.

This is about who we are. It is about what kind of democracy Britain

:46:01.:46:07.

should be. And even before the Brexit legislation, the former Lord

:46:08.:46:10.

Chief Justice warned us about the steady diminishing of Parliament,

:46:11.:46:14.

handing over power and control year after year to the executive, and to

:46:15.:46:18.

a fair judgment to be fair Fx previous governments, not just this

:46:19.:46:22.

one, and the number of statutory instruments on the fact that since

:46:23.:46:28.

1950 only one in 10,000 of these statutory instruments laid before

:46:29.:46:31.

Parliament, Parliament has actually said no.

:46:32.:46:35.

Henry VIII's Parliament had an excuse. The man had a habit of

:46:36.:46:39.

dropping off people's heads. What is the excuse that this Parliament? How

:46:40.:46:45.

can we possibly, in this generation, allow ourselves to become the most

:46:46.:46:50.

supine parliament in history, by handing over powers on this scale?

:46:51.:46:55.

We sit here and we listened to maiden speeches in this house with

:46:56.:46:59.

great respect, because we still, all of us, think there is something

:47:00.:47:04.

special about being sent here by our constituents, sent with the power of

:47:05.:47:08.

democracy, sent on the wings of all of those ballot papers, those many

:47:09.:47:13.

thousands of ballot papers folded up with a cross by our name, we think

:47:14.:47:17.

there is something special in that and we have a response ability to

:47:18.:47:19.

hold the executive to account. Not to hand over all power, the power

:47:20.:47:24.

that is given to us by our constituents, not to hand over that

:47:25.:47:27.

power in an unrestricted weights to government ministers to do what they

:47:28.:47:31.

like. Yet that is what this bill is doing.

:47:32.:47:36.

History will judge us for the decisions that we make now and for

:47:37.:47:40.

the precedents we set and for the choices that we make. Six months ago

:47:41.:47:45.

I voted for Article 50 because I believe in democracy. But now it is

:47:46.:47:50.

that same faith in democracy that means I cannot vote for this bill.

:47:51.:47:58.

Let's not choose to be the most supine in history, let us be the

:47:59.:48:01.

generation of Parliament that stands up for Parliament, that does pursue

:48:02.:48:05.

the Article 50 process but also does so in a way that holds ministers to

:48:06.:48:10.

account. The five-minute limit now to apply.

:48:11.:48:15.

This has been a fascinating debate and I am delighted the little bird

:48:16.:48:21.

tells me the Chief Whip and Leader of the House conspiring to try make

:48:22.:48:23.

arrangements for it to be extended into a second day until midnight.

:48:24.:48:29.

One of the most fascinating aspect of the debate has been the

:48:30.:48:33.

appearance of logic, not only from the right honourable lady who has

:48:34.:48:36.

just broken but the chair of the Brexit Select Committee on the

:48:37.:48:40.

Shadow Secretary of State. It sounded forensic and logical. The

:48:41.:48:44.

structure of that argument is clearly as follows, we don't like

:48:45.:48:49.

clause nine, we don't like clause 17. We don't like schedule seven and

:48:50.:48:53.

therefore instead of waiting to see of those clauses and schedules will

:48:54.:48:57.

change at committee before voting on a third reading, we will reject the

:48:58.:49:00.

bill at second reading. That's not what magicians call logic. It raises

:49:01.:49:08.

the question why the non sequitur? The three people I mentioned are

:49:09.:49:12.

among the three of the most clever in Parliament and the reason they

:49:13.:49:15.

are engaging in is what they had to do is to make some combination of

:49:16.:49:20.

trouble for the Government or for Brexit, the Brexit process and those

:49:21.:49:24.

of us on this side of the House should therefore not pay any

:49:25.:49:26.

attention to these argument is that get on with the business of

:49:27.:49:29.

examining the bill as it is. Having said that, I rather agree, strongly

:49:30.:49:35.

agree with the member of Chingford and some of what the former

:49:36.:49:39.

Chancellor of the Exchequer and my right honourable friend said, there

:49:40.:49:45.

is a need to get those clauses again. I suspect much of the remedy

:49:46.:49:49.

will lie in a combination of using the joint committee on statutory

:49:50.:49:53.

instruments as the ultimate body and something like the SAA seed to do

:49:54.:49:56.

the detailed work on what will probably be near an 1010 technical

:49:57.:50:02.

statutory instruments before the House comes to consider the really

:50:03.:50:04.

serious matters which will need to be dealt with in one way or another.

:50:05.:50:09.

Having said that, there's 1.I want to make in advance of committee hope

:50:10.:50:12.

the Government will consider it between now and then. There is a

:50:13.:50:16.

fundamental issue as an address so far. That relates to what we used to

:50:17.:50:21.

call the ECJ, the European Court of Justice. The members who have read

:50:22.:50:31.

the items in clause six will have noticed that in 6.4 it says, the

:50:32.:50:39.

Supreme Court is not bound by any repaint EU case law. That sounds

:50:40.:50:42.

like quite an important statement. Not quite as important as you might

:50:43.:50:47.

think, because the Supreme Court is not bound by itself either. The

:50:48.:50:51.

Supreme Court is the kind of court that can always depart. I think it

:50:52.:50:54.

is more of a ritual utterance than anything else. If we look at 6.3,

:50:55.:51:03.

what we discover is... Any questions about the law to be decided in

:51:04.:51:07.

accordance with any retained case law and any general principles of

:51:08.:51:10.

even you law. If anyone is into doubt if that is a drafting error,

:51:11.:51:15.

in the Government's on document describing the bill it as questions

:51:16.:51:22.

on retaining EU law will be in accordance with ECJ case law. This

:51:23.:51:30.

bill enshrined the ECJ with its expansion list jurisprudence as the

:51:31.:51:33.

basis for deciding what the law of the land is. That, I think... I

:51:34.:51:38.

won't, I'm sorry, I don't have much time. I don't believe that that is

:51:39.:51:44.

actually a very good way to do it, but if it were a good way to do it,

:51:45.:51:48.

we should certainly remove the reference to the Supreme Court not

:51:49.:51:55.

being bound by it, because it isn't one solo parliamentarian with no

:51:56.:51:59.

expertise, it's rather the retiring president of the Supreme Court, we

:52:00.:52:03.

do have to pay some attention to, that there is an ambiguity. My

:52:04.:52:06.

personal belief... Of course I will give way.

:52:07.:52:12.

It is by no means the only ambiguity in this bill, but I agree with him

:52:13.:52:16.

entirely that asked the judiciary to carry out an interpretation of

:52:17.:52:21.

something which is so oddly, and I have to say, vaguely worded, is a

:52:22.:52:26.

recipe for disaster. And is something this house should avoid

:52:27.:52:28.

doing. I am grateful to my right honourable

:52:29.:52:31.

friend and I agree with him and I have been committee we can address

:52:32.:52:35.

it head on. My personal belief is we should address it in the form of

:52:36.:52:40.

changing 6.3, in order to ensure that actually it is open that we

:52:41.:52:47.

give an inducement to our courts to move back to the plain words of the

:52:48.:52:52.

texts of the treaties and directives, so far they judge that

:52:53.:52:55.

can be done without injustice to individuals. I think that is the

:52:56.:52:59.

principal most people who voted for leave and that many of us who voted

:53:00.:53:03.

on balance to remain but to have been extremely sceptical about the

:53:04.:53:11.

activities of the ECJ. I suspect I might even carry my right honourable

:53:12.:53:17.

friend on that point because he was somewhat surprisingly very sceptical

:53:18.:53:22.

about the ECJ on many occasions. I say surprisingly, because what

:53:23.:53:24.

happened if despite his enthusiasm for the European Union, which I'd

:53:25.:53:29.

never quite managed to share, actually he is a very good

:53:30.:53:32.

parliamentarian, a very good lawyer and he recognises we don't want a

:53:33.:53:36.

court that makes its own war. So I think we have a way forward, which

:53:37.:53:40.

we can seek in committee. None of that should ebb skewer the fact this

:53:41.:53:44.

is a good unnecessary bill. And I think the opposition says has

:53:45.:53:48.

suggested there is any structural deficiency in the bill, therefore I

:53:49.:53:52.

will vote for it tonight or the next day when it is debated and I hope

:53:53.:53:55.

all my friends and colleagues on these benches and many on benches

:53:56.:54:02.

opposite will do the same. Maiden speech, Rosie Duffield.

:54:03.:54:06.

Thank you Mr Speaker. It's a great privilege to give my maiden speech

:54:07.:54:11.

as part of this important debate. Many people, especially me, were

:54:12.:54:14.

completely stunned on the morning of June nine to wake up finding a new

:54:15.:54:21.

dot, a new red dot had appeared on the previously blue map of Kent. I

:54:22.:54:26.

am really was shocked but trying to make as much positive difference as

:54:27.:54:29.

I can in my time in this place. Before I speak a little more about

:54:30.:54:33.

my constituency, I do want to mention the so-called trolling of my

:54:34.:54:36.

mostly female colleagues that has taken place over the summer. I've

:54:37.:54:41.

already experienced a fair amount of trolling myself. This ranges from

:54:42.:54:46.

ill informed Bradley we searched articles published as fact to

:54:47.:54:50.

unpleasant personal messages late at night and vile vitriolic insults

:54:51.:54:53.

from the small but persistent handful of activists from other

:54:54.:54:57.

parties posted online. I would like to acknowledge the effort being made

:54:58.:55:01.

by the inspirational women in Parliament who are working hard to

:55:02.:55:04.

raise this issue and fighting against it, even though that usually

:55:05.:55:07.

results in much more abuse being thrown their way. I would like to

:55:08.:55:11.

make special mention of my friend, the new councillor, who has endured,

:55:12.:55:18.

fought back and now campaigns against the lowest form of racial

:55:19.:55:22.

abuse. And, of course, Labour's Shadow Home Secretary, who has shown

:55:23.:55:27.

incredible dignity and strength in the face of unacceptable abuse.

:55:28.:55:35.

Groups such as glitch UK and reclaim the Internet, led by my colleague

:55:36.:55:38.

Yvette Cooper and many of my friends and colleagues here in this house,

:55:39.:55:42.

are deserving of our support. We must continue to fight against this

:55:43.:55:46.

and highlight the problem. It is entirely possible to engage in

:55:47.:55:50.

passionate political debate without resorting to name calling, death

:55:51.:55:55.

threats and abusive language. Let's restore respect and manners to our

:55:56.:55:58.

online behaviour. As the first woman to have ever been

:55:59.:56:02.

elected in Canterbury and as a single mother, I want to be a

:56:03.:56:06.

champion for equality, not only for women but also for the disabled,

:56:07.:56:10.

people of every ethnic and racial background, the young and the old,

:56:11.:56:15.

the LGBT community and people of all faiths and none. It is a scandal

:56:16.:56:19.

that in this day and age there is still inequality in pay and

:56:20.:56:22.

discrimination in many forms. All such prejudice has no place in our

:56:23.:56:34.

society. I will challenge and fight it where ever I find it. My

:56:35.:56:36.

constituency, Canterbury, is famous as a place of pilgrimage. It is also

:56:37.:56:40.

known as being part of the Garden of England. Today, as we sit in the

:56:41.:56:42.

Palace of Westminster, the farms surrounded my constituency are

:56:43.:56:44.

filled with apples, hops and plum trees. In a few ways nothing has

:56:45.:56:49.

changed since Chaucer and his pilgrims went walking through those

:56:50.:56:53.

same fields, yet in many ways everything has changed. In those

:56:54.:56:57.

fields today, many of the fruit pickers are European. Every day in

:56:58.:57:01.

the streets of my city and the nearby seaside town of wits double

:57:02.:57:04.

we hear European languages being spoken by schoolchildren visiting

:57:05.:57:09.

from France, Spain, Germany and Belgium. At that the hill that

:57:10.:57:13.

overlooks Canterbury city is the University of Kent, which prides

:57:14.:57:17.

itself on being the UK's European university. And standing outside the

:57:18.:57:21.

doors of Canterbury Cathedral on your closer to Paris than you are to

:57:22.:57:27.

Sheffield. This is just my way of emphasising how much Canterbury

:57:28.:57:30.

constituency has and continues to benefit from economic and cultural

:57:31.:57:33.

exchange with our European neighbours. It is undoubtedly true

:57:34.:57:39.

that the Kent economy has benefited from immigration and terrorism from

:57:40.:57:42.

across the Channel and we hope to continue to do so well into the

:57:43.:57:47.

future. If there must be a Brexit, I only want the sort of Brexit that

:57:48.:57:52.

protects the rights of EU nationals to work in the UK, that promotes

:57:53.:57:56.

trade across borders and is proud of our many students and academics who

:57:57.:57:59.

come here to study from across the world. We want, for example, to

:58:00.:58:04.

continue to welcome the foreign doctors, nurses and other health

:58:05.:58:07.

care professionals who have worked in our hospitals. There is real

:58:08.:58:13.

anxiety in the constituency I now represent about the future of our

:58:14.:58:18.

local NHS, and in particular the Kent and Canterbury Hospital. Over

:58:19.:58:22.

the past decade, it has lost vital services. We now have absolutely no

:58:23.:58:27.

A The maternity unit which gave me such wonderful care when I had my

:58:28.:58:32.

two boys is gone and only a few months ago the KMT lost three major

:58:33.:58:35.

services, those being heart attack, stroke and pneumonia.

:58:36.:58:40.

The threat to our hospital is not happening in isolation. The problems

:58:41.:58:47.

facing our NHS a rise from government policy affecting the

:58:48.:58:50.

whole of England. The first of these is budget cuts. Our local hospital

:58:51.:58:56.

trust does not have a deficit of ?40 million because of overspending, it

:58:57.:59:00.

is caused by underfunding. Putting the shackles of austerity into an

:59:01.:59:04.

already weakened NHS is a deliberate political choice made by this

:59:05.:59:09.

Government. I must speak up to save our nation's sickest patient,

:59:10.:59:17.

because that is what the NHS is. The NHS is our nation's sickest patient.

:59:18.:59:23.

The Government must be careful that while burying their heads in Brexit,

:59:24.:59:28.

they must not leave her to die. Yesterday I was outside supporting

:59:29.:59:31.

the public sector staff and other workers who are having to resort to

:59:32.:59:36.

protest in the face of the ongoing pay cap. Some nurses I speak to

:59:37.:59:39.

regularly are having to rely on food banks. What sort of country is this

:59:40.:59:42.

where we can't look after the very people who look after us? In around

:59:43.:59:49.

1370, long before he wrote the Canterbury tales, Geoffrey Chaucer

:59:50.:59:51.

were sent to Italy by the king to negotiate a trade agreement between

:59:52.:59:56.

general and England. Historical documents show that it was a very

:59:57.:00:01.

successful trade agreement indeed. I can only wish that our current

:00:02.:00:06.

Brexit negotiations with the EU are as successful. You would think that

:00:07.:00:10.

after nearly 650 years we would have picked up a tip or two. I hope that

:00:11.:00:14.

the current Government I listen to the whispers of history and the

:00:15.:00:18.

shouts from up and down the United Kingdom. People want a good deal.

:00:19.:00:22.

They don't want no deal. This isn't a television game show with a snappy

:00:23.:00:25.

title. We must come out with A.D. That doesn't send us back into the

:00:26.:00:30.

economic dark ages. As is the tradition of maiden

:00:31.:00:37.

economic dark ages. As is the tradition of speeches, I would like

:00:38.:00:43.

to thank my predecessor. I'm sure that both sides of the House will

:00:44.:00:46.

acknowledge what a remarkable act of dedication and service that was.

:00:47.:00:54.

While we disagreed on many issues such as equal marriage, Brexit and a

:00:55.:00:57.

woman's right to choose, I sincerely wish her well for the future. I love

:00:58.:01:04.

Canterbury and her surrounding villages. I love the working harbour

:01:05.:01:09.

of Whitstable and the pebbles of the surrounding coast. I am humbled by

:01:10.:01:13.

the people of my constituency for putting their trust in me, and I

:01:14.:01:16.

want to work hard for all the people in my area. I believe in unity,

:01:17.:01:22.

togetherness and that love and trust can transcend borders. I believe in

:01:23.:01:25.

progressive and thoughtful socialism, where we think of our

:01:26.:01:29.

neighbours without prejudice. Thank you for listening, Mr Speaker, and

:01:30.:01:32.

for allowing me to have my first moments fighting for the people who

:01:33.:01:39.

elected me. I will not let them down.

:01:40.:01:43.

THE SPEAKER: Thank you, and many congratulations to the honourable

:01:44.:01:46.

lady. The five-minute limit is now restored. Nicky Morgan. I

:01:47.:01:51.

congratulate the new honourable member for Canterbury on an

:01:52.:01:55.

excellent and very confident maiden speech. I was sorry to hear about

:01:56.:02:01.

the abuse that she has already had on the Internet and online, but

:02:02.:02:03.

pleased to hear about the support but she has had. She talked about

:02:04.:02:08.

unity and togetherness, and I think she might have found this House at a

:02:09.:02:13.

challenging time for unity and togetherness, but hopefully we will

:02:14.:02:16.

find a way through these current debates. I know that her predecessor

:02:17.:02:20.

was a doughty champion of the Armed Forces, a subject he spoke about

:02:21.:02:28.

often in this House. Mr Speaker, so it starts, the real process

:02:29.:02:30.

forgetting is out of the European Union. This bill is needed legally

:02:31.:02:37.

in order to disentangle us, and I think to make many people really

:02:38.:02:41.

believe that we are actually going to be leaving the European Union. It

:02:42.:02:45.

is not something I have had difficulty in believing, because I

:02:46.:02:49.

have been clear, as have many colleagues who share my views from

:02:50.:02:52.

the 24th of June 2016 onwards that this was going to happen, because as

:02:53.:03:03.

the honourable member said, we do believe in the democracy of the

:03:04.:03:07.

House of Commons, but there are two major ironies in this bill. It is

:03:08.:03:10.

not a repeal but a reintroduction bill, and often those who wanted to

:03:11.:03:15.

get away from EU law now seek to bring it all over here. And

:03:16.:03:18.

certainly those who wanted to take back control how showed no concerns

:03:19.:03:23.

about the amount of executive power that is going to be wielded through

:03:24.:03:27.

this bill until a number of the rest of us started to highlight these

:03:28.:03:32.

issues, and now claim to be happy with the amendments that might be

:03:33.:03:35.

discussed later on in the committee stage. In the limited time

:03:36.:03:40.

available, I wanted to draw attention to two parts of the Bill

:03:41.:03:44.

that have already been discussed. I think it is worth putting it on

:03:45.:03:47.

record so Ministers are in no doubt about the parts of the builder they

:03:48.:03:52.

are going to have to discuss with colleagues from across this House

:03:53.:03:54.

and seek to agree amendments on if they want the Bill to go through to

:03:55.:04:01.

its final stages. The first is the Henry VIII powers in clause nine,

:04:02.:04:05.

that could theoretically bite on this bill itself, allowing Ministers

:04:06.:04:09.

to amend the very and act and the House is now debating, and being

:04:10.:04:13.

asked to assent to. And we might ask why we are going through troublesome

:04:14.:04:16.

and time-consuming business of getting the village shape where

:04:17.:04:20.

Ministers could use clause nine to reverse the changes they dislike

:04:21.:04:24.

with speed, efficiency and a minimum of Parliamentary oversight. The

:04:25.:04:27.

response that the Secretary of State is going to give to the question

:04:28.:04:30.

from the chairman of the Brexit select committee about the fact that

:04:31.:04:32.

the withdrawal agreement should not be in fermented until this House has

:04:33.:04:38.

had its say on the withdrawal agreement is incredibly important.

:04:39.:04:43.

I'm grateful to my honourable friend forgiving way. Would she advise

:04:44.:04:50.

Ardent levers possibly on these benches that there is a real danger

:04:51.:04:53.

that their concerns about the amount of money that might be paid to the

:04:54.:04:58.

European Union by way of what we call this divorce Bill, that that

:04:59.:05:03.

could be decided by Government without court redress in this place

:05:04.:05:09.

by virtue of clause nine on which she has elaborated? I thank my

:05:10.:05:13.

honourable friend for that intervention, and she is absolutely

:05:14.:05:17.

right. We know that the amount of money, and I say is a former budget

:05:18.:05:21.

Minister, there will be money to be paid to the European Union. I

:05:22.:05:24.

disagree fundamentally with the remarks from my right honourable

:05:25.:05:29.

friend the Member for Wokingham. As one of our MEPs, Dan Hannan, has

:05:30.:05:34.

said, this is a country that pays what it owes. We have made financial

:05:35.:05:39.

commitment to the European Union until 2020, and we should pay what

:05:40.:05:44.

we owe, and they may well be adamant we decide to pay more for in order

:05:45.:05:48.

to have access to, and I'm thinking about things like Horizon 2020

:05:49.:05:58.

funding. The date of the exit date is subject to no Parliamentary

:05:59.:06:02.

scrutiny whatsoever. The Secretary of State started his remarks today

:06:03.:06:05.

by saying that this was not a bill that took us out of the European

:06:06.:06:09.

Union. I did think about intervening, but I thought that was

:06:10.:06:13.

very early on in his remarks, and he might clarify it. But the difficulty

:06:14.:06:17.

with what he said is that the first clause broadly states that it is

:06:18.:06:22.

repealed on exit day. If the European Communities Act is wrote

:06:23.:06:28.

repealed, the UK leave the European Union, so this is a bill that if

:06:29.:06:33.

passed under provisions are enacted, we will leave the European Union as

:06:34.:06:37.

a result of what is in this bill. Article 50 is a process of giving

:06:38.:06:41.

notice to start the discussion. So the Secretary of State was not

:06:42.:06:46.

correct about that. Now why does scrutiny matter so much? I suspect

:06:47.:06:51.

that members of this House have been having discussions with businesses

:06:52.:06:56.

and others who rely on EU law in order to go about what they are

:06:57.:07:00.

doing. And they are telling is very clearly that what will make their

:07:01.:07:05.

life easier and the transition possible is convergence, sticking to

:07:06.:07:08.

the regulations and the rules that we have been following for years,

:07:09.:07:13.

whether we're talking about pharmaceutical companies, financial

:07:14.:07:18.

services or food exports or farmers are universities or many other

:07:19.:07:21.

different sectors, and so those who seek to say that we are going to be

:07:22.:07:30.

will take is already and not rule-makers, I have sat at the

:07:31.:07:33.

European Council table and had those debates. The point is after March

:07:34.:07:37.

2019, if we want to have convergence which is what we are hearing, we are

:07:38.:07:41.

going to have to take the rules without having had any influence on

:07:42.:07:46.

them. And finally let me say this as a proud parliamentarian. We have

:07:47.:07:52.

been reminded how special it is to be elected to this place.

:07:53.:07:56.

Parliamentary scrutiny is not an affront to democracy. It is its very

:07:57.:08:02.

essence. And the true saboteurs of Brexit are those who would sanction

:08:03.:08:06.

the exclusion of Parliament from this process. The debate on this

:08:07.:08:15.

bill has only just started. I also congratulate my honourable friend

:08:16.:08:19.

the Member for Canterbury on a speech that was both fluent,

:08:20.:08:25.

forceful and at the same time generous to her predecessor. Also it

:08:26.:08:30.

was a speech that has determined me that I want to go and visit

:08:31.:08:33.

Canterbury. It sounds such a delightful place. I want, Mr

:08:34.:08:41.

Speaker, to make a few points about why people voted to leave in the

:08:42.:08:48.

referendum. Where this bill stands in relation to why people voted to

:08:49.:08:55.

leave in the referendum last year, and also how all of the other

:08:56.:08:59.

aspects of Brexit are going, and how they relate back to why people voted

:09:00.:09:06.

as they did. There are three areas which I think there may be more, but

:09:07.:09:12.

three which I think are of the most relevance. The first one is that

:09:13.:09:17.

people voted to restore the sovereignty of the United Kingdom.

:09:18.:09:21.

However they defined what that sovereignty was. It was certainly an

:09:22.:09:27.

issue that was debated forcefully, and it was occasionally raised on

:09:28.:09:30.

the doorstep, and I use the word occasionally advisedly. Secondly,

:09:31.:09:37.

they voted to restore some kind of economic independence. The feeling

:09:38.:09:44.

that we were spending too much money in Europe, and that we would be

:09:45.:09:48.

better off outside, and we could negotiate better trade arrangements

:09:49.:09:52.

with the rest of the world, and everything in the garden would be

:09:53.:10:00.

rosy. And the third reason was, and this is the issue most commonly

:10:01.:10:05.

raised on the doorstep with me, was immigration. So I will come back to

:10:06.:10:12.

all of those very briefly. On the first issue of sovereignty and this

:10:13.:10:21.

bill, the honourable member for Stone and the right honourable

:10:22.:10:24.

member for Wokingham can dance on the head of a pin all that they want

:10:25.:10:30.

about what this bill actually does. But as my right honourable friend

:10:31.:10:35.

from the front bench so forensically demonstrated, what it is is a

:10:36.:10:39.

transfer of power away from Parliament and towards the

:10:40.:10:43.

Executive. And that certainly isn't what the people in my constituency

:10:44.:10:50.

voted for. Secondly, an economic independence, apart from the fact

:10:51.:10:57.

that it is potentially going to cost us ?70 billion just to walk away,

:10:58.:11:03.

people actually didn't vote for a worse trade deal, worse economic

:11:04.:11:09.

relationships within the European Economic Community, and OK, I accept

:11:10.:11:15.

the Prime Minister said, you can't leave and at the same time be a

:11:16.:11:18.

member of the single market, you can't leave and at the same time be

:11:19.:11:23.

a member of the customs union, I'm sure she is right about that. But

:11:24.:11:26.

let's be honest about what we know the Government is seeking to do.

:11:27.:11:33.

They are trying to create a set of circumstances... I will give way.

:11:34.:11:41.

Could he explain Norway? Norway has never been in the European Union, a

:11:42.:11:48.

form of of the customs union as our eyesight and Lichtenstein. It is a

:11:49.:11:51.

fallacy to suggest that being as the European Union has to minute you are

:11:52.:11:55.

outside the single market, unless you choose to be outside. The point

:11:56.:12:00.

I was going on to make is that we all know if we are brutally honest

:12:01.:12:07.

about it what is going to happen. The Government through their

:12:08.:12:10.

negotiations are going to find a set of arrangements that are as close as

:12:11.:12:16.

possible to being part of the single market without being a member of it,

:12:17.:12:21.

and are going to find some sort of arrangement whereby we are very

:12:22.:12:25.

close to something approximating the customs union. And if they don't do

:12:26.:12:30.

that, frankly, they won't be looking after the best interest of this

:12:31.:12:35.

country. So that we know. Which leads me on to the question about

:12:36.:12:41.

immigration. If they are going to achieve anything that approximates

:12:42.:12:48.

the customs union and some sort of relationship with the single market,

:12:49.:12:53.

the price they are going to have to pay is to agree some sort of also

:12:54.:12:59.

approximate arrangement about the free movement of labour between the

:13:00.:13:03.

UK and the EU. Ministers might say, we can do that.

:13:04.:13:15.

No, you can't. The reality of the situation we are in is if the people

:13:16.:13:20.

who are negotiating on behalf of the European Union were to say, OK, you

:13:21.:13:28.

can have something, UK, that approximates the EU single market

:13:29.:13:31.

and Customs union and you don't need to worry about any free movement of

:13:32.:13:36.

labour, they would soon be removed from the negotiation positions

:13:37.:13:40.

they've been put in. It's not realistic. So where are we on this

:13:41.:13:46.

audit of what we have achieved since the referendum?

:13:47.:13:51.

First of all, we have a set of arrangements in this bill that are

:13:52.:13:55.

less democratic and less, give less power to Parliament and more power

:13:56.:14:01.

to the executive. That is hardly, in my view, what was promised in the

:14:02.:14:07.

referendum. We are likely to be paying ?70 billion, not getting ?350

:14:08.:14:11.

million a week put back into the health service, but paying ?70

:14:12.:14:14.

billion for the privilege of leaving.

:14:15.:14:19.

And finally, we are going to, if we get anything like reasonable

:14:20.:14:23.

arrangements on our economic relationship with the EU, have to

:14:24.:14:27.

accept some level of free movement of labour. Everything people voted

:14:28.:14:33.

for is going to be the trade. Can I join with the member for

:14:34.:14:42.

Mosley in congratulating the new member for her maiden speech. I hope

:14:43.:14:47.

she will work with other members and she made generous tribute to her

:14:48.:14:50.

predecessor, a fine parliamentarian for many years.

:14:51.:14:54.

Mr Speaker, 17.4 million voted to leave the European Union. 16 million

:14:55.:15:05.

voted to. Polls show very quick clearly a large percentage of the 16

:15:06.:15:08.

million now want us to get on with it, and if we do not, there will be

:15:09.:15:13.

catastrophic damage to the confidence and integrity of all of

:15:14.:15:20.

us. So we must progress, taking back control to our democratic

:15:21.:15:23.

institutions of our laws, our borders and our money. Our 494

:15:24.:15:28.

members voted in February for Article 50 and we will except at

:15:29.:15:36.

midnight on the March 29, 2019. So what we are debating today is an

:15:37.:15:40.

absolutely crucial stage in this process. Article 50 requires any

:15:41.:15:44.

member state may decide to withdraw from the union. It requires us to

:15:45.:15:53.

repeal the European Communities Act 1972. As far as I'm concerned, good

:15:54.:15:58.

riddance to it. We will be a better country without that act and we've

:15:59.:16:01.

seen a strange mixture today of Project free up morphing into

:16:02.:16:08.

Project humbug. I have the pleasure and honour to be on the European

:16:09.:16:12.

scrutiny committee for many years and I remember clearly being shocked

:16:13.:16:18.

as a junior member, piles of papers coming through which imposed burdens

:16:19.:16:21.

on our citizens which we could not debate and could not end. One day a

:16:22.:16:25.

couple of Labour members were ill, a Lib Dem member got stuck in the lift

:16:26.:16:29.

and the most pernicious measure affecting the dairy industry, we

:16:30.:16:35.

debated to be on the floor this house, we couldn't amend it but we

:16:36.:16:40.

could at least debate it. The member for Derby South stood up and

:16:41.:16:46.

cancelled that debate. That. . From now on we will have the power to

:16:47.:16:51.

debate these measures, we will not impose law on our citizens we have

:16:52.:16:56.

not debated. And all this talk about Project Fear, I remember clearly is

:16:57.:17:02.

a founding member of votes leave that early on there was discussion

:17:03.:17:09.

about change to employment rights. I had discussions with the member for

:17:10.:17:12.

Vauxhall and reassured them that at no stage did any member on the Tory

:17:13.:17:17.

side considered changing employment rights. I cannot remember any

:17:18.:17:21.

discussion both privately or publicly that this was raised. This

:17:22.:17:26.

is pure Project Fear. Employment rights will be brought under control

:17:27.:17:32.

of democratically elected politicians in this house.

:17:33.:17:37.

The spokesman made it interesting case, taking the very worst case,

:17:38.:17:41.

and I hope the Government will listen to concerns of how some of

:17:42.:17:46.

the so-called Henry VIII clauses might be amended. I would suggest

:17:47.:17:55.

judiciously that clause seven brings in a sunset clause of two years a

:17:56.:17:59.

more judicious use of sunset clauses might be valid. But we must press on

:18:00.:18:04.

because we need smooth transfer of power. In agriculture, there are

:18:05.:18:14.

355,000 measures, many in fishery and 20,319. Businesses need to have

:18:15.:18:19.

smooth continuity. Some years ago I looked at this issue, having had a

:18:20.:18:24.

private members bill on the dis- application of the EU law and looked

:18:25.:18:33.

at the history. Many historical precedents, many states took their

:18:34.:18:37.

then English and Welsh common-law into their corpus of law. When

:18:38.:18:43.

Australia and New Zealand left our jurisdiction, they also did it. I

:18:44.:18:48.

thought India very interestingly in 1947 did exactly the same and they

:18:49.:18:52.

are still amending their law. Only recently in 2016 they passed an act

:18:53.:18:57.

amending 90 acts, including the elephants preservation act of 79. We

:18:58.:19:04.

are setting up a continuous process. It is wholly ludicrous, the Labour

:19:05.:19:11.

position. 162 members voted for Article 50. Their manifesto said

:19:12.:19:16.

Labour accepts the referendum result. They have in their manifesto

:19:17.:19:19.

that they wanted to leave the Intel market and the customs union. So the

:19:20.:19:26.

leader, who has to be the most consternation as leader of any

:19:27.:19:33.

party... I will give way. Not on the elephants preservation act but does

:19:34.:19:36.

he not agree that the most complex area here will be within DAFRAs

:19:37.:19:52.

remit. It is important. That is why the Government very sensibly will

:19:53.:19:58.

bring forward primary legislation in this house on agriculture, fisheries

:19:59.:20:03.

and the environment. I will ask the Labour Party to look at their

:20:04.:20:07.

position. They have a leader who has rebelled against his party 617

:20:08.:20:14.

times. They have this in their manifesto, they voted for Article

:20:15.:20:21.

50. The sensible measure now is for the Labour Party to vote for second

:20:22.:20:25.

reading and then to see reasoned amendment put through in the

:20:26.:20:29.

committee stage. Many of us would agree this bill can be improved, but

:20:30.:20:35.

the public will not forgive them if they are seen to be monkeying around

:20:36.:20:39.

with the political process, making cheap political games, when 17.4

:20:40.:20:45.

million people voted to leave, to take back control of our laws, our

:20:46.:20:50.

money and our borders. I will be voting for a second reading on

:20:51.:20:54.

Monday, Mr Speaker. The honourable member for North

:20:55.:20:58.

Shropshire talked about promises made. I think we all remember the

:20:59.:21:04.

promises that were made by those campaigning to vote lead in the

:21:05.:21:08.

referendum, at the time resulting in the bill that we have before us.

:21:09.:21:14.

?350 million per week for the National Health Service, I'm still

:21:15.:21:18.

waiting to see where that particular clause is in the legislation. It was

:21:19.:21:23.

the international trade secretary who said it would be the easiest

:21:24.:21:27.

thing in the world for us to have all of these fantastic trade deals.

:21:28.:21:30.

By now we would be halfway towards trade deals ten times the size of

:21:31.:21:37.

the European Union. And yet as a member for North Shropshire

:21:38.:21:41.

helpfully repeated, they promised if we had that particular referendum

:21:42.:21:45.

with a particular result, we could take back control. But here we are,

:21:46.:21:49.

Mr Speaker, with this particular piece of legislation in front of us,

:21:50.:21:54.

and indeed it is the case for some that they are taking back control.

:21:55.:21:59.

Not, though, for parliament, but for the Prime Minister, for the

:22:00.:22:03.

executive, for those who are on the Crown payroll. It is unacceptable

:22:04.:22:08.

that in our Constitution, as my right honourable friend from

:22:09.:22:12.

Castleford said earlier, the British constitution, that we should be here

:22:13.:22:17.

almost asked to create one of the most superfine parliaments that has

:22:18.:22:22.

existed around the world, with the provisions that are set out in this

:22:23.:22:27.

particular bill, particular clause nine, clause 17, which have such

:22:28.:22:32.

wide-ranging powers gifted to ministers. And as I was indicating

:22:33.:22:36.

before, when the Secretary of State opened this particular debate, it's

:22:37.:22:40.

all very well for them to promise, don't worry, I give you an

:22:41.:22:43.

undertaking... We won't miss use this power in this particular way...

:22:44.:22:48.

Just because it says we can do any order making power if we deem it

:22:49.:22:53.

appropriate, we won't use it in anyway... Just because the

:22:54.:22:58.

legislation says we only use these Thorpe order making power, which

:22:59.:23:01.

means they can make the order without reference to parliament even

:23:02.:23:05.

in a negative statutory instrument sense, only if it's urgent... That

:23:06.:23:09.

definition is entirely in the hands of ministers. But, of course, they

:23:10.:23:13.

are here today and gone tomorrow ministers. Ministers can come and

:23:14.:23:17.

ministers can go and honourable members on all sides of the House

:23:18.:23:21.

need to imagine perhaps their worst possible scenario for who could be

:23:22.:23:26.

Prime Minister. Stranger things have happened. And in the hands of those

:23:27.:23:32.

particular, that particular individual, he or she, they should

:23:33.:23:35.

imagine, do they want to invest those massive and sweeping powers

:23:36.:23:40.

for perhaps a prolonged period? Because it is true that in clause

:23:41.:23:45.

nine, yes it says there might be a two year limit for some of these

:23:46.:23:48.

powers, but of course clause nine allows the Minister to reform this

:23:49.:23:54.

act itself. So the minister can simply say, actually two years, no

:23:55.:23:58.

change my mind, let's go for three or five. It's a completely

:23:59.:24:02.

ridiculous open-ended piece of legislation.

:24:03.:24:04.

We won't have much time to debate this. We have a ridiculous programme

:24:05.:24:09.

motion with only eight days to go through in committee stage. This

:24:10.:24:17.

bill gives carte blanche in the ways and means resolution and the money

:24:18.:24:20.

resolution that we will be voting on Monday, which grants powers for any

:24:21.:24:26.

expenditure under this withdrawal agreement, possibly including that

:24:27.:24:32.

30, 40, ?50 billion, who knows, divorce alimony settlement. It is

:24:33.:24:34.

ridiculous that Parliament would be taking away its own powers in this

:24:35.:24:40.

particular way. We have to be able to see the withdrawal agreement and

:24:41.:24:46.

the seven pieces of Brexit legislation before we hand over to

:24:47.:24:52.

ministers powers, such sweeping order making powers. Mr Speaker,

:24:53.:24:57.

this bill isn't just about process within this place. Sometimes I

:24:58.:25:01.

wonder whether the public look at us and they think, why are you

:25:02.:25:04.

officiously checking the air pressure on the tyres before you get

:25:05.:25:09.

in a vehicle and ride it over the cliff edge? This is very much about

:25:10.:25:13.

whether Britain leaves the single market or stays in the single

:25:14.:25:17.

market. Because this legislation would delete the European Economic

:25:18.:25:22.

Area act 1993. It is very much about whether we have a good free trade

:25:23.:25:27.

arrangement without Harriet 's and without those customs barriers,

:25:28.:25:30.

because it is this bill that takes away many of those arrangements that

:25:31.:25:37.

we have for a common commercial alliance with our European partners.

:25:38.:25:42.

It is about jobs. It is about business, and it's also about

:25:43.:25:45.

austerity, because the Treasury needs the revenues from a decent

:25:46.:25:48.

economy to pay for those public services. That is what we're

:25:49.:25:51.

fighting for and I think this bill needs to opposed.

:25:52.:25:56.

I would like first of all to congratulate the honourable lady,

:25:57.:26:00.

the member of Canterbury for her maiden name which I enjoyed. I spent

:26:01.:26:07.

many years at the bar cutting my teeth there as an advocate. I may

:26:08.:26:11.

remind myself of some of the lessons I learned that this afternoon in

:26:12.:26:14.

briefly contributing to this debate. I shall support the Government at

:26:15.:26:17.

second reading. This is an absolutely vital bill. We cannot

:26:18.:26:23.

leave the European union sensibly without such a bill being on the

:26:24.:26:27.

statute book. The Government need support and it will have it from me.

:26:28.:26:32.

It equally, I have to say, that unless this bill is substantially

:26:33.:26:35.

improved in the course of the committee stage I regret to have to

:26:36.:26:39.

say to my right honourable friends, I will in no position to support at

:26:40.:26:45.

third reading in its current form. It is in many respects a stunning

:26:46.:26:46.

monstrosity of a bill. Its first failing is it and

:26:47.:26:59.

treatment of EU law itself. I didn't so much enjoyed EU law, although I

:27:00.:27:03.

had outings to the European Court of Justice when I was Attorney General,

:27:04.:27:06.

but it is a different form of law from our own which is imported and

:27:07.:27:11.

has filled vast areas which otherwise we would have developed in

:27:12.:27:16.

our own domestic law. So we need to nurture it, because we can't just

:27:17.:27:19.

get rid of it overnight or we are going to leave enormous gaps. And in

:27:20.:27:24.

addition to that, there are safeguards within EU law that don't

:27:25.:27:29.

exist within our law and need to be retained because otherwise EU law

:27:30.:27:34.

will act unfairly, and again they are different from our own. I have a

:27:35.:27:38.

number of areas of concern. The Bill does not deliver clarity. It

:27:39.:27:43.

imported and of EU law is hedged around with ambiguities, which

:27:44.:27:47.

undermine one of the key pillars of the rule of law, which is certainty

:27:48.:27:53.

of what the law is. One example was given by my right honourable friend

:27:54.:27:57.

for West Dorset, but there are numerous others. For example, in

:27:58.:28:07.

clause 2.1, it is said that contained within EU law is law that

:28:08.:28:13.

was started entirely domestically but has been taken into the EU. It

:28:14.:28:18.

is something I suspect every body unless house would regard clause

:28:19.:28:26.

seven is unacceptable. We could actually address that in committee

:28:27.:28:30.

not for a change in clause two which is fundamental, but rather in the

:28:31.:28:33.

change of clauses that were concerned with seven, eight and

:28:34.:28:39.

nine. I agree with my right honourable friend, these are all

:28:40.:28:42.

curable with a little bit of will. Another example, we have touched on

:28:43.:28:49.

it, is rather mysteriously in all of this, EU law never used to be

:28:50.:28:53.

divided whether it was primary or secondary legislation, so

:28:54.:28:57.

interestingly it is all being treated as primary which has nice

:28:58.:29:01.

merit, and I'm sure somebody in Whitehall dreamt this up, as a

:29:02.:29:04.

consequence of it none of it would be susceptible to be quashed under a

:29:05.:29:09.

challenge under the Human Rights Act. That may not matter, but when

:29:10.:29:13.

it is linked to the fact that the other area of challenge which would

:29:14.:29:17.

normally be available, which is a challenge because it is in breach of

:29:18.:29:22.

the general principles of EU law has been delicately removed along with a

:29:23.:29:27.

Charter of fundamental rights, it is capable of causing unfairness. I did

:29:28.:29:36.

slightly detect with the honourable Secretary of State, it was it he

:29:37.:29:39.

used to stand up and club labour secretaries over the head, and that

:29:40.:29:45.

I would, long and dissect them in public with a legal scalpel. But did

:29:46.:29:52.

I suggest that he looked a little fugitive is the legal scalpel began

:29:53.:29:56.

to move in on him. Somebody is going to have to sort that out, and we are

:29:57.:30:00.

going to have to do it at the committee stage of the Bill. And

:30:01.:30:05.

there are other examples which I could give, but I don't have time to

:30:06.:30:09.

do, so I shall leave those for the committee stage in which I intend to

:30:10.:30:13.

participate actively. Let me then moved to the Henry VIII clauses. The

:30:14.:30:18.

current situation is frankly ridiculous. It is perfectly

:30:19.:30:24.

possible, I recognise there will be Henry VIII clauses, of course we

:30:25.:30:28.

cannot in the course of doing this massive revolutionary

:30:29.:30:30.

transformation, do it all by primary legislation. But we can make sure

:30:31.:30:35.

that we have the necessary safeguards in place, the most

:30:36.:30:42.

obvious and the first thing is to have an established Parliamentary

:30:43.:30:45.

system of scrutiny to ensure that the different types of statutory

:30:46.:30:48.

instrument that will be needed are correctly farmed out. I have no

:30:49.:30:52.

doubt that my right honourable friend is right, that the vast

:30:53.:30:55.

majority of them will be technical and very little account. Some will

:30:56.:30:58.

be extremely important and will need to be taken on the floor of the

:30:59.:31:03.

House. We need to have a system in place to do that. Will my honourable

:31:04.:31:07.

friend give way? I must make progress. I need to come onto

:31:08.:31:13.

another thing with Henry VIII clauses, which is despite that, we

:31:14.:31:18.

need to look at the ones we've got. Some are much too widely drawn. What

:31:19.:31:22.

is this in clause seven saying that any deficiency in an EU measure

:31:23.:31:26.

should be capable of being judged. It is one thing to say if it is in

:31:27.:31:32.

offer a ball, but to say if it is deficient, I could find arguments to

:31:33.:31:34.

suggest that every single law in this country is deficient. So these

:31:35.:31:41.

are going to have to be changed. Finally I turned to the issue of the

:31:42.:31:49.

programme motion, and are properly restructure programme motion can

:31:50.:31:52.

work well, and I am prepared to support the Government on a

:31:53.:31:55.

programme motion as long as I have an assurance that if it is not

:31:56.:31:59.

filibustering, that if we run out of time we will get more time during

:32:00.:32:02.

the course of the passage of the Bill. That is vital. With that, I

:32:03.:32:06.

wish this bill well, I hope to be able to improve it and support the

:32:07.:32:12.

Government at third reading and bring an important constitutional

:32:13.:32:19.

measure to completion. There have been some excellent speeches after

:32:20.:32:23.

the Secretary of State's, things went downhill after that but started

:32:24.:32:26.

to look up again when we had the maiden speech from the honourable

:32:27.:32:32.

lady of Canterbury. I only have one slight criticism, she didn't mention

:32:33.:32:36.

Baron in her list of villages, which I know quite well. And I thank the

:32:37.:32:45.

Member for Beaconsfield and his reference to the astonishing

:32:46.:32:49.

monstrosity that is this bill. The Liberal Democrats believe that

:32:50.:32:52.

Parliament must be given comprehensive sovereignty and

:32:53.:32:55.

scrutiny over this process, and this opinion is widely supported not only

:32:56.:32:58.

by many members in this House on both sides, but by the law society

:32:59.:33:03.

for instant to state that the Bill must respect Parliament's role in

:33:04.:33:08.

making and approving changes to UK law. Parliament must be driving the

:33:09.:33:12.

future of the United Kingdom and the future of Brexit, not Ministers

:33:13.:33:16.

using executive indeed dictatorial powers to exercise total control

:33:17.:33:21.

over the legislative process. The Government's decision to provide

:33:22.:33:25.

just two days for the second reading mean that members now will only have

:33:26.:33:29.

five minutes in which to raise their points, and eight days in committee

:33:30.:33:34.

for a bill which unravels 40 years of closer EU Corporation, showing

:33:35.:33:37.

the extent to which Parliament is held in contempt by Ministers. The

:33:38.:33:42.

Secretary of State and other Ministers may be quick to dismiss

:33:43.:33:45.

Lib Dem criticism of the Bill, but before they do, I would encourage

:33:46.:33:50.

them to think back to 2008 and the by-election the Secretary of State

:33:51.:33:53.

triggered. The catalyst for him in that by-election was Labour's highly

:33:54.:34:00.

illiberal plan to increase precharge detention from 28 to 42 days, but it

:34:01.:34:04.

was the build-up of attacks on our civil liberties that led him along

:34:05.:34:10.

that by-election path. There is a widely held view that this

:34:11.:34:13.

represents a major attack on Parliamentary sovereignty and

:34:14.:34:16.

therefore a present and future risk on Civil Liberties. A legal expert

:34:17.:34:21.

commenting said that it will give powers allowing Ministers to

:34:22.:34:25.

fast-track the implementation of certain EU laws domestic law through

:34:26.:34:30.

legislation without Parliamentary debate. It could be used by

:34:31.:34:37.

Ministers to ride roughshod over UK citizens' rights, leaving gaping

:34:38.:34:41.

holes where it would be. Similar concerns from the Forsett society

:34:42.:34:45.

saying that it could be used to affect laws. Some members opposite

:34:46.:34:52.

if they pride themselves on hold inconsistent views should also be

:34:53.:34:56.

alarmed, 13 members opposite and five on these benches wrote to the

:34:57.:35:03.

Daily Telegraph in June 2016 stating that whatever one's views on the EU

:35:04.:35:07.

debate, many will agree that Parliamentary sovereignty should be

:35:08.:35:11.

the key focus in any renegotiations. They now have an opportunity by

:35:12.:35:15.

their actions rather than their words to demonstrate their value

:35:16.:35:17.

Parliamentary sovereignty more highly than ministerial expediency.

:35:18.:35:24.

And will any of them have the courage of their convictions, or did

:35:25.:35:27.

their commitment to Parliamentary scrutiny have an expiry date of the

:35:28.:35:33.

23rd of June 2016? Madame Deputy Speaker, the truth is this bill was

:35:34.:35:39.

always going to be a sows ear, because the Government started

:35:40.:35:45.

negotiations without projected outcomes, and so it had to cater for

:35:46.:35:50.

any scenario, Deal or no Deal. What started with democracy must not end

:35:51.:35:59.

with a stitch up by Ministers. There must be a meaningful vote on the

:36:00.:36:03.

final deal, and if they do not accept the deal negotiated by the

:36:04.:36:06.

parameters and her Cabinet, they should have the option to remain a

:36:07.:36:09.

member of the European Union. The Bill must provide for this. Instead,

:36:10.:36:16.

this bill denies members of Parliament are right and duty to

:36:17.:36:20.

scrutinise. It takes away powers from devolved governments and makes

:36:21.:36:29.

a mockery of the rallying cry of take back our laws. As my honourable

:36:30.:36:39.

friend the Member for Stone pointed out, this is by any standards and

:36:40.:36:44.

historic bill, in fact it is hard to think of a clause of any bill more

:36:45.:36:47.

momentous than the European Communities Act 1972 as repealed an

:36:48.:36:54.

exit day. But beyond that, it is possibly not such a dramatic piece

:36:55.:37:01.

of legislation. And in fact I was quite pleased when the original

:37:02.:37:03.

working title of the Great Repeal Bill was abandoned, because it is

:37:04.:37:10.

not beyond clause one a repeal bill. In fact it is the great preservation

:37:11.:37:16.

bill and carries out a very prosaic function, but nevertheless an

:37:17.:37:19.

important function, and that is to preserve in United Kingdom law the

:37:20.:37:25.

European law that we have absorbed over the last 44 years to ensure

:37:26.:37:29.

that on the day of exit, which will very probably be on the stroke of

:37:30.:37:36.

midnight on March the 30th 2019, brussels time, there will be a

:37:37.:37:41.

working statute book in this country. I don't believe that this

:37:42.:37:46.

should be a contentious matter. In fact, all members of this honourable

:37:47.:37:52.

house should be anxious to see that we have that certainty for business

:37:53.:37:56.

and for the citizens of this country when we leave the European Union.

:37:57.:38:01.

And I'm surprised therefore that the opposition has decided to put down a

:38:02.:38:07.

reasoned amendment in which it makes it quite clear that it intends to

:38:08.:38:11.

wreck the Bill. And I really wonder whether the opposition have given

:38:12.:38:16.

any consideration to the impact that their decision-making well have upon

:38:17.:38:20.

the interests of business and, as in this country. We have got to make

:38:21.:38:26.

sure, Madame Deputy Speaker, that on the day of exit, the statute book in

:38:27.:38:30.

this country works, and frankly, the only way that we can achieve it in

:38:31.:38:36.

the timescale with which we are constrained and which is set out in

:38:37.:38:40.

Article 50 is to have a flexible, pragmatic system such as the system

:38:41.:38:49.

that is laid out in the draft Bill. That of course doesn't mean that the

:38:50.:38:55.

opposition supinely have to accept everything without possibly

:38:56.:39:02.

considering amendment, but simply to go along a course of trying to wreck

:39:03.:39:05.

the Bill I think is quite reprehensible. We certainly have to

:39:06.:39:12.

consider the mechanisms that are to be employed. And listening to the

:39:13.:39:20.

speech of the right honourable member for Hogan and St Pancras, and

:39:21.:39:23.

other members opposite, the impression that I get overall is

:39:24.:39:27.

that the concern is not so much about the methodology of ensuring

:39:28.:39:34.

that we have continuity of legislation in this country, it is

:39:35.:39:38.

rather the issue of scrutiny of the measures that will have to be

:39:39.:39:42.

brought forward under secondary legislation. Certainly some of these

:39:43.:39:48.

will be very prosaic, very straightforward, and I can't think

:39:49.:39:51.

that anyone would object for example to a measure which would replace a

:39:52.:39:56.

European institution with a British institution as needing anything more

:39:57.:40:04.

than a secondary legislation by the negative procedure. But there are

:40:05.:40:09.

some other measures which will certainly be of greater moment. And

:40:10.:40:15.

the right on the gentleman mentioned today's report by the House of Lords

:40:16.:40:22.

Constitution committee. There was an earlier report of that committee in

:40:23.:40:26.

March of this year which came up with certain sensible suggestions

:40:27.:40:32.

for scrutiny, for example setting up a joint committee of both houses,

:40:33.:40:36.

something that was touched upon by the writer or a member, and I would

:40:37.:40:44.

have thought that rather than seeking to destroy the Bill with all

:40:45.:40:47.

the adverse consequences that that would have on the national interest,

:40:48.:40:53.

members opposite should give consideration possibly at committee

:40:54.:40:57.

stage to putting forward some enhanced form of security of the

:40:58.:41:02.

sort that was contemplated by the Constitution committee in this

:41:03.:41:07.

report. That I believe is the proper way forward, but simply to seek to

:41:08.:41:11.

destroy and wreck the Bill, I believe does nothing for the

:41:12.:41:15.

reputation of this House, and we have heard so many speeches this

:41:16.:41:19.

afternoon about preserving that reputation, I am happy to support

:41:20.:41:23.

this bill at second reading, and I urge other honourable members to

:41:24.:41:31.

vote for it. I will support this bill at second reading for two

:41:32.:41:37.

reasons. One relatively small and personal, and the other for the

:41:38.:41:41.

general principles of democracy. The first one is is a very young man

:41:42.:41:45.

when I was joining the Labour Party, my Labour MP, Paul Rhodes, who was

:41:46.:41:50.

the youngest member of Parliament elected in the 1964 Parliament, was

:41:51.:41:56.

one of the 69 Labour rebels who voted with Ted Heath to implement

:41:57.:42:04.

the 1972 act. I have been smouldering with quiet anger over

:42:05.:42:10.

the 44 years since that happened, so it is a personal delight for me to

:42:11.:42:16.

be able to vote to repeal that act. Paul Groves certainly made his

:42:17.:42:19.

constituents and constituency party very angry at the time. But a much

:42:20.:42:26.

more substantial reason is that we had a referendum last year. People

:42:27.:42:33.

voted by a majority to leave the European Union, and although this

:42:34.:42:36.

bill is not the Bill that takes us out of the European Union, this bill

:42:37.:42:43.

is absolutely fundamental to leaving the European Union.

:42:44.:42:47.

I think the electorate, having made that decision, and those who voted

:42:48.:42:56.

remain, I don't think they will understand the Labour Party's

:42:57.:43:01.

tactical position to vote against it, having said in the general

:43:02.:43:05.

election only three months ago that we would implement the manifesto. I

:43:06.:43:10.

don't think that is a principled position and I don't think the

:43:11.:43:14.

electorate like it, and I think the Labour Party has made a serious

:43:15.:43:18.

mistake in coming to that conclusion. I hope they can reverse

:43:19.:43:24.

it between now and the vote on the Monday evening.

:43:25.:43:28.

Having said that, I think my right honourable friend, who led for us on

:43:29.:43:37.

this, made some substantial points about flaws in the bill as have

:43:38.:43:41.

other speakers. Whilst I will vote for a second reading, I hope the

:43:42.:43:45.

Government ministers are listening carefully to what has been said and

:43:46.:43:51.

will come forward with some compromises. It is not a healthy

:43:52.:43:56.

situation to have so many Henry VIII clauses, every government has had

:43:57.:44:01.

Henry VIII clauses, but not of this substantial nature. And I have never

:44:02.:44:08.

liked self amending regulation, which is one of the reasons that I

:44:09.:44:13.

went through the lobby against the Lisbon Treaty with the Leader of the

:44:14.:44:17.

Opposition and the Shadow Chancellor, because the Lisbon

:44:18.:44:22.

treaty contained clauses which effectively allowed bureaucrats in

:44:23.:44:28.

Brussels to change our laws without any response from Parliament at all.

:44:29.:44:36.

So I don't believe two wrongs make a right, to respond to what the

:44:37.:44:40.

previous Attorney General said earlier, but I do believe in that

:44:41.:44:45.

consistency. If it was wrong to have those clauses and wrong to have huge

:44:46.:44:51.

Henry VIII clauses, then it is certainly wrong then and it is wrong

:44:52.:44:55.

now and I hope the Government will listen to the reasonable points that

:44:56.:44:58.

have been made. There have been a great many points

:44:59.:45:03.

made, and initial period of five minutes one can't cover all those

:45:04.:45:12.

positions. The 1.I would make, because there has been genuine

:45:13.:45:18.

concern on this side about loss of protection, environmental laws and

:45:19.:45:24.

changes to trade union laws, and what lies underneath that is a

:45:25.:45:27.

belief that everything that has come out of the European Union has been

:45:28.:45:32.

good for trade unions and been good for the environment. That simply

:45:33.:45:41.

isn't true. If one looks, at the Lavelle judgment from the ECJ or the

:45:42.:45:48.

Viking judgment, you will see there is undermining minimum wage

:45:49.:45:52.

legislation and undermined the definition of what constitutes a

:45:53.:45:55.

trade dispute. If you look at the width of

:45:56.:45:59.

environmental legislation, you will see that a lot of the history of the

:46:00.:46:05.

EU has done serious damage to the environment. The issue that comes to

:46:06.:46:12.

mind most is the fisheries policy, which took all the cord from the

:46:13.:46:16.

North Sea, as well as other fish. So I hope the Government is listening,

:46:17.:46:22.

that they will come forward with some compromises, that if it is

:46:23.:46:28.

necessary to give us more time than eight days, that that time should be

:46:29.:46:34.

given. I will curtail my remarks to focus

:46:35.:46:38.

on the parts of the bill concerned with the transposing of EU laws and

:46:39.:46:44.

regulations. Environmental protection, I have every faith in

:46:45.:46:49.

the Government's determination to transpose the full suite of

:46:50.:46:52.

regulations that have been successful in protecting many

:46:53.:46:55.

aspects of our environment, and indeed the ministers have frequently

:46:56.:47:01.

stated a wish that we will leave the environment in a better state than

:47:02.:47:06.

that which we found it. My right honourable friend the

:47:07.:47:09.

Secretary of State has made a superb start in what he says about the

:47:10.:47:14.

environment and it warms the cockles of my heart, but what we are talking

:47:15.:47:19.

about here is for ever. Certainly for the foreseeable future of

:47:20.:47:23.

decades ahead, as can be amended by future governments. Who knows what

:47:24.:47:27.

forces will be pulling on governments of the future, that

:47:28.:47:32.

could result in much valued environmental protection is being

:47:33.:47:35.

dumped? So we need to implement measures which are backed by a new

:47:36.:47:40.

architecture of government, and I find myself attracted to some of the

:47:41.:47:45.

remarks being made by the honourable lady, the member of Brighton

:47:46.:47:48.

Pavilion, probably to the consternation of some of my

:47:49.:47:51.

colleagues. I think her sentiments are right. We might disagree on what

:47:52.:47:55.

that architecture is but I think she is right to breathe it. Because

:47:56.:48:00.

indeed, we want to prevent future governments from playing fast and

:48:01.:48:03.

loose with protections which have cleaned up our beaches and our

:48:04.:48:07.

rivers, starting to clean our air and could and should be extended to

:48:08.:48:15.

our soils, sees another fundamentals of our very existence and the future

:48:16.:48:18.

of our economy. One measure that is on the face of it impossible to

:48:19.:48:25.

replicate in this bill is the process of infraction. These are

:48:26.:48:29.

fines with lots of zeros on the end that are imposed on a member state

:48:30.:48:34.

government for failure to comply with the directive. I can assure

:48:35.:48:37.

honourable members, this is something that keeps ministers awake

:48:38.:48:42.

at night. For example, the potential failure of the UK to comply with the

:48:43.:48:46.

urban waste water treatment directive has resulted in a 4

:48:47.:48:50.

billion plus scheme to build a new sewer a few yards from where we

:48:51.:48:54.

said, to clean up one of the greatest rivers in the world running

:48:55.:48:57.

through one of the greatest cities in the world. When I was a minister

:48:58.:49:02.

at DEFRA in 2010, infraction hung over me and the Government and

:49:03.:49:06.

ensured every action the Government took was compliant with the

:49:07.:49:10.

directives of the EU. If we weren't, we faced the risk of a huge fine.

:49:11.:49:16.

Whilst I'm glad the Government intends to transpose all EU law,

:49:17.:49:26.

including the EU... Including those into clause two, it emerges how can

:49:27.:49:32.

we in those changes? The water framework directive is the only show

:49:33.:49:35.

in town, in terms of clearing up our rivers, only one fifth of the chalk

:49:36.:49:40.

streams in this country are fully functioning ecosystems. A national

:49:41.:49:44.

disgrace in my mind, but we are on a glide path to correcting that. This

:49:45.:49:49.

is through the clear and unequivocal measures set out in this directive.

:49:50.:49:54.

Now, failure to comply means obviously a supranational body is

:49:55.:49:58.

able to find it -- find a member state but it is hard to imagine the

:49:59.:50:03.

circumstances where a government could or would find itself. It is

:50:04.:50:08.

concerning me that in the bill, as it stands, judicial review seems to

:50:09.:50:12.

be seen as sufficient on its own. In actual fact, in order to ensure the

:50:13.:50:16.

environment is protected a proper body, with the ability to audit

:50:17.:50:21.

government, working with other NGOs, needs to be put in place. As I've

:50:22.:50:26.

said, I have great faith in people like the honourable member for

:50:27.:50:31.

Surrey Heath and others to protect the directives but I fear future

:50:32.:50:36.

governments may not be so rigorous. What constituents need is to have

:50:37.:50:41.

the reassurance that we are protecting their protections. Need

:50:42.:50:46.

assurances on that, that we can fill the gap that the loss of measures

:50:47.:50:50.

like infraction would create, and I have no absolute silver bullet to

:50:51.:50:55.

solve that, but I'm looking through the process of this piece of

:50:56.:50:58.

legislation and possible future pieces of legislation to achieve

:50:59.:51:02.

that. In a few seconds I have left I would say this. I believe it is our

:51:03.:51:07.

absolute duty to scrutinise this piece of legislation. I utterly

:51:08.:51:10.

reject some bizarre comments I've seen in the press, saying scrutiny

:51:11.:51:15.

is somehow undermining the will of the people. I intend to vote for

:51:16.:51:19.

this piece of legislation at second reading. I believe it can be

:51:20.:51:22.

improved at committee, but it is absolutely vital that we assist the

:51:23.:51:27.

Government in trying to make something that is workable, not just

:51:28.:51:31.

now, but for the very long term. Well said, I agree with the number

:51:32.:51:38.

of the points the honourable member for Newbury just raised.

:51:39.:51:41.

George Osborne was right in his headline in the Evening Standard

:51:42.:51:44.

yesterday, to describe the effect of this bill as a rule by decree. That

:51:45.:51:50.

headline was prompted by an article that appeared in the paper, written

:51:51.:51:54.

by the right honourable member for Beaconsfield, and I pay tribute for

:51:55.:52:00.

him -- to him for that article. I agree this is an astonishing

:52:01.:52:05.

monstrosity of a bill. Unlike him, however, I don't intend to vote in

:52:06.:52:09.

favour of it. He is right, I think, to raise

:52:10.:52:16.

concerns about the explicit intention in the bill not to

:52:17.:52:23.

implement, not to put into our law, the Charter of fundamental...

:52:24.:52:28.

Fundamental rights. My right honourable friend, the member for

:52:29.:52:34.

Warmington, was right to tackle this earlier run. Ministers have told us

:52:35.:52:40.

they don't intend that this bill will buy loot employment rights or

:52:41.:52:43.

environmental protections or other things that we have, but there is no

:52:44.:52:49.

assurance at all in the build up those dilutions will not go ahead

:52:50.:52:52.

and we need much more reassurance than we have been given so far.

:52:53.:52:57.

I want to raise with the House is a very practical example of a problem

:52:58.:53:02.

with not putting the Charter of fundamental rights into UK law.

:53:03.:53:07.

Article eight deals with the protection of personal data.

:53:08.:53:10.

Everyone, it says, has the right to the protection of personal data. It

:53:11.:53:17.

says such data must be processed fairly, for specified purposes and

:53:18.:53:23.

on the basis of the consent of the person concerned or some other

:53:24.:53:28.

legitimate basis laid down by law. Now that article underpins data

:53:29.:53:32.

protection law. It underpins the legal frameworks providing,

:53:33.:53:37.

permitting the free flow of data across European borders. It is

:53:38.:53:41.

absolutely essential that the Government secures and adequacy

:53:42.:53:48.

agreement from the commission, confirming that data protection in

:53:49.:53:53.

the UK is adequate from a European standpoint, in order that UK

:53:54.:53:58.

businesses can continue to exchange personal data with European EU

:53:59.:54:04.

countries. If they don't achieve that agreement, ministers will have

:54:05.:54:08.

removed the basis for the lawful operation of countless British

:54:09.:54:16.

businesses. Tech UK pointed out the extent of UK leadership in this

:54:17.:54:23.

field. 11% of global data flows pass through the UK. 75% of that traffic

:54:24.:54:30.

is with the EU. But ministers will not get an advocacy agreement if

:54:31.:54:37.

they simply... If this commitment is not contained in UK law. We need

:54:38.:54:44.

Article eight to be there, or an equivalent affirmation of the same

:54:45.:54:52.

principles. I see no justification whatsoever for taking that article,

:54:53.:54:55.

or indeed the rest of the Charter, and not putting it into UK law.

:54:56.:55:01.

I must say it is for me a real mystery why Conservative ministers

:55:02.:55:04.

have become so impervious to the basic needs of British businesses in

:55:05.:55:12.

their handling of Brexit. My right honourable friend, his very

:55:13.:55:17.

fine speech in returning responding to the Secretary of State at the

:55:18.:55:20.

start of this debate was absolutely right to point out that we have to

:55:21.:55:23.

stay in the single market and customs union at least for the

:55:24.:55:29.

duration of this transition phase. On taking office, the Secretary of

:55:30.:55:34.

State told us that his negotiation would secure barrier free access for

:55:35.:55:42.

UK businesses and consumers to the UK single market. He doesn't say

:55:43.:55:51.

that any more. The Minister said at a Brexit question session earlier

:55:52.:55:57.

today that we will have the minimum infraction in our trade with the EU.

:55:58.:56:03.

The reality is we need barrier free access. We do need access to the

:56:04.:56:07.

single market for UK businesses and consumers that does not involve

:56:08.:56:12.

Harris and doesn't involve nontariff barriers either. The only way we are

:56:13.:56:17.

going to get that before the conclusion of these negotiations is

:56:18.:56:20.

if we stay in the single market and stay in the customs union. I very

:56:21.:56:26.

much regret that ministers, and the Secretary of State did think about

:56:27.:56:30.

it, ministers have rejected that. That's one of the reasons we need to

:56:31.:56:36.

project this bill. Can I say it is a pleasure to follow the honourable

:56:37.:56:41.

gentleman who represents East Ham and also say how much I agree with

:56:42.:56:45.

so many of the comments and speeches on this side of the House about the

:56:46.:56:49.

folly that is the opposition's decision to oppose this bill at this

:56:50.:56:54.

stage, to vote against it without seeing that actually... They say as

:56:55.:56:57.

to be done and indeed it does have to be done. We have to do the

:56:58.:57:03.

movement of all the regulation Damir Dzumhu and clauses, that we are as

:57:04.:57:06.

we all agree, many faults in it but I think they were let down many of

:57:07.:57:10.

those people in their own constituencies who voted leave who

:57:11.:57:14.

will see this but this playing politics I think it undoubtedly is.

:57:15.:57:18.

Could I begin by saying how much I fully endorsed and totally adopt all

:57:19.:57:23.

the contents of the speeches from my right honourable friend the member

:57:24.:57:29.

is for Rushden, Devon North,. And noted the outbreak of unity on these

:57:30.:57:35.

benches, and indeed across the House as well, because there have been

:57:36.:57:38.

some excellent speeches, very points made by right honourable members on

:57:39.:57:42.

the other side. But notably I have taken into account the wise words of

:57:43.:57:48.

my right honourable friend for Chingford and the member for Clywd

:57:49.:57:53.

West. There is a growing concern about this bill and notably my

:57:54.:57:58.

biggest concern about it, which is this paragraph by ministers, this

:57:59.:58:02.

transfer of powers over two ministers with very little, if any

:58:03.:58:06.

influence on decision and debate by this place, in this chamber. I would

:58:07.:58:12.

like to thank the Prime Minister, my right honourable friend and in a

:58:13.:58:15.

moment... I will. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister

:58:16.:58:18.

Undersecretary of State, who have clearly already listened to the many

:58:19.:58:23.

concerns on these benches. I'm having a meeting with others, with

:58:24.:58:25.

the Prime Minister and look forward to that and I look forward in due

:58:26.:58:31.

course to some very serious government amendments coming forward

:58:32.:58:33.

or perhaps the adoption of amendments which will no doubt be

:58:34.:58:37.

laid by honourable members, right honourable members on the side. As

:58:38.:58:40.

you note, I shared a very real concerns about clause nine. I think

:58:41.:58:46.

it should be for simply withdrawn. I think certainly clause 17 is open if

:58:47.:58:55.

not for withdrawal, it is -- for some serious and fundamental

:58:56.:58:58.

amendments. I'm worried about this for reasons I outlined in my

:58:59.:59:06.

intervention. I think they can find other mechanisms for delivering

:59:07.:59:10.

that, to make sure we properly scrutinise it we have existing

:59:11.:59:13.

committees we can strengthen or increase, so we can filter out what

:59:14.:59:20.

we call a triage. It is a good idea and I think it is getting much

:59:21.:59:24.

support on these benches as well as from across the other place.

:59:25.:59:30.

I think the following needs to be said, and I say this to all those

:59:31.:59:39.

perfectly reasonable and sensible people, the many millions throughout

:59:40.:59:42.

this country who voted leave last year. If anybody tells you that

:59:43.:59:49.

people like me are doing everything we can and scrutinising legislation,

:59:50.:59:55.

perhaps voting for them, they are doing to thwart the will of the

:59:56.:59:59.

people, then they are telling you lies, and I'm not going to put up

:00:00.:00:03.

with it any longer, and this needs to be said. We are leaving the EU,

:00:04.:00:08.

and even the right honourable gentleman from Rushcliffe accepts

:00:09.:00:15.

that, and some of us voted by triggering Article 50, and we gave a

:00:16.:00:19.

promise to the electorate and we will honour that. And I say to those

:00:20.:00:27.

who say that we want to thwart what you decided, look at the other

:00:28.:00:32.

things that they promised you before June 23. They said that this would

:00:33.:00:43.

be a great opportunity to get rid of miles of red tape, all these things

:00:44.:00:47.

strangling the British economy, and these are the very things we are

:00:48.:00:52.

going to take lock, stock and barrel across into our own law. They told

:00:53.:00:56.

you you were going to get ?350 million for the NHS, and you aren't.

:00:57.:01:01.

They told you they will take back control, but if this bill isn't

:01:02.:01:06.

amended, they won't be, they won't be taking back control for the

:01:07.:01:09.

people, they will be giving if Ministers. And could be God forbid a

:01:10.:01:15.

Labour government led by The right honourable member for Islington

:01:16.:01:19.

North. And they told you it would be all so easy, and as you now know, it

:01:20.:01:25.

is not just challenging, it is a nightmare, but we will do our best

:01:26.:01:29.

to deliver it, and if it all goes wrong, don't forget we will be here

:01:30.:01:34.

to clear up the mess. Don't forget who misled you and told you lies

:01:35.:01:44.

before June the 23rd. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. Leaving the

:01:45.:01:47.

European Union means we need to convert decades of EU law into our

:01:48.:01:53.

domestic legislation. A builder can do this in a timely and effective

:01:54.:01:57.

manner is essential. That is not what this debate is about. The real

:01:58.:02:03.

question is whether this bill is fit for purpose, and I'm afraid, might

:02:04.:02:08.

typically Speaker, it is not. The Government claims the Bill will

:02:09.:02:12.

restore sovereignty to Parliament and secure certainty post Brexit,

:02:13.:02:17.

but that is not the case. It transfers huge powers to Ministers,

:02:18.:02:21.

not to members of this House, over issues that are vital to peoples

:02:22.:02:29.

lives, over maternity leave, paternity leave and other issues,

:02:30.:02:34.

and I fear the Bill could increase the uncertainty, including the

:02:35.:02:38.

likelihood of legal challenge and judicial review, because the powers

:02:39.:02:44.

in the Bill are so broadly drawn. My right honourable and learn at friend

:02:45.:02:48.

and the Member for beacons feels I think have forensically exposed the

:02:49.:02:54.

reality of the key clauses in this bill. Clause seven giving Ministers

:02:55.:02:59.

the power to change EU derived law that has failed or is deficient,

:03:00.:03:02.

without any definition of what that means. Clause nine could be used to

:03:03.:03:09.

amend the powers in the Bill after it is enacted, and clause 17, giving

:03:10.:03:13.

the Ministers sweeping powers to make changes that he or she

:03:14.:03:17.

considers appropriate in consequence of this act. Of course the Brexit

:03:18.:03:22.

secretary claims the Government won't use these powers to make a

:03:23.:03:30.

major policy changes, which begs the question, why into the middle first

:03:31.:03:34.

place, and the fear that many people have is that these powers will be

:03:35.:03:42.

used to water down and remove works' rights. Some MPs have tried to brush

:03:43.:03:46.

these concerns off. Often these are the very same MPs who have railed

:03:47.:03:53.

against abuse of delegated powers in the past. For years the Brexit

:03:54.:03:57.

secretary argued vociferously against, and I quote, the trend from

:03:58.:04:02.

democracy to presidential oligarchy. How times have changed! The right

:04:03.:04:13.

honourable member for Wokingham has talked about these powers, and let's

:04:14.:04:22.

not forget it is the perpetual, almost the eternal job of this House

:04:23.:04:27.

to keep the Executive on the cheque, urging members to take tough

:04:28.:04:32.

decisions told the Government to account, even as part of the report.

:04:33.:04:45.

However difficult the circumstances, I would urge honourable members on

:04:46.:04:49.

the benches opposite to remember the courage of their previous

:04:50.:04:53.

convictions. I said at the beginning of my comments, a bill is necessary

:04:54.:05:00.

to achieve Brexit, and I would urge Ministers to bring forward

:05:01.:05:07.

amendments to circumscribe the powers the Bill delegates more

:05:08.:05:10.

tightly, and to strengthen procedures for the most widely

:05:11.:05:14.

delegated powers, and if they bring forward amendments along these

:05:15.:05:16.

lines, they will have support across the House. Brexit presents us with a

:05:17.:05:24.

Herculean task, not just transferring half a century of EU

:05:25.:05:28.

law into UK legislation or even agreeing the initial Article 50 deal

:05:29.:05:34.

that finances rights of EU citizens in Northern Ireland which is already

:05:35.:05:37.

proving a huge challenge for the Government. It is about defining the

:05:38.:05:42.

future relationship between the UK and the EU for years to come.

:05:43.:05:46.

Yesterday the Brexit secretary said no one pretended this would be easy,

:05:47.:05:52.

but this is precisely what they did. Before the referendum, the

:05:53.:05:54.

Environment Secretary claimed the day after we vote to leave, we hold

:05:55.:05:59.

all the cards and can choose the path we want. Just last month, the

:06:00.:06:03.

international Trade Secretary said agreeing a free trade agreement

:06:04.:06:06.

should be one of the easiest in human history. These comments are

:06:07.:06:12.

not just misleading, they are deeply misguided. They won't build respect

:06:13.:06:16.

or trust with our negotiating partners, and they won't bring

:06:17.:06:20.

Britain together. I fear we are still as divided now as we were at

:06:21.:06:24.

the referendum. Remain voters are angry that their views are being

:06:25.:06:29.

ignored. Leave voters are frustrated about progress and worried we could

:06:30.:06:33.

be tied up in knots for years. We need more honesty about the

:06:34.:06:36.

challenges we face and the inevitable trade-offs and

:06:37.:06:47.

compromises that will have to come that is the leadership Britain now

:06:48.:06:49.

needs in the Government should step up to the mark. I am not used to

:06:50.:06:55.

being called so early in a debate. I have received numerous e-mails and

:06:56.:06:58.

letters from constituents who have heard the comments and read the

:06:59.:07:06.

articles. As a result of Henry VIII clauses, and that this is an

:07:07.:07:12.

unnecessary power grab which jeopardises their rights and

:07:13.:07:15.

undermines their Parliament. I take these concerns seriously, as all of

:07:16.:07:19.

us should do, and I thought the Shadow Secretary of State who gave a

:07:20.:07:24.

superb speech earlier today and some of the many questions that I would

:07:25.:07:28.

like to see addressed during the passage of the Bill, but it needs to

:07:29.:07:33.

be passed at second reading, because the principle of the Bill is

:07:34.:07:47.

unquestionable. And the Bill itself is not so in greed is deficient, far

:07:48.:07:53.

from it. But it doesn't provide a clear basis to move forward with the

:07:54.:07:56.

passage of the Bill, and let's not get ahead of ourselves, Madame

:07:57.:08:05.

Deputy Speaker. Can you explain, can the honourable member explained to

:08:06.:08:13.

me if you say the principle of this is good, we have been discussing the

:08:14.:08:16.

principle of undermining Parliamentary democracy, that is at

:08:17.:08:20.

stake, so is the honourable member not clear that that is the principle

:08:21.:08:25.

that is at stake, and that is why we are against the form of the Bill as

:08:26.:08:33.

it stands? I hope that the honourable lady will be reassured by

:08:34.:08:41.

the comments I make. We have a good successor in my gym Deputy Speaker.

:08:42.:08:48.

Charles the first is not on his way for the honourable member for

:08:49.:08:50.

Beaconsfield, although some might like to see that. Statutory

:08:51.:09:03.

instruments, we can go and speak at these debate and vote on them.

:09:04.:09:07.

Parliament may treat them as a Cinderella, which one reads your

:09:08.:09:10.

e-mails or signed your paperwork, but that is our choice, and is a

:09:11.:09:21.

reflection on the history. The purpose of this bill is explicitly

:09:22.:09:26.

to replicate what we have in European law, not to change it. As I

:09:27.:09:33.

understand, at least 50% of these are immaterial technical changes

:09:34.:09:36.

that nobody in this House in their right mind, nobody in their right

:09:37.:09:41.

mind would have any concern about. There does need to be a mechanism to

:09:42.:09:47.

sift an materiality, and that is a point made by many eloquent and

:09:48.:09:51.

today, and I would like to see that mechanism created during the course

:09:52.:09:57.

of the committee stage, because there will be some issues that are

:09:58.:10:01.

material, that my constituents care about and on which I would like to

:10:02.:10:05.

speak and ensure we made the right decisions, but those will not be the

:10:06.:10:09.

majority, and I'm sure a sensible mechanism can and will be found by

:10:10.:10:12.

the whole House during the committee stage. And on the second point that

:10:13.:10:19.

my constituents have e-mailed me about, is this necessary? Of course

:10:20.:10:23.

it is necessary. This is an unprecedented challenge. This is

:10:24.:10:29.

byzantine, as the chair of the select committee has said. The

:10:30.:10:33.

complexity of the issue, however many people were in favour of Leave

:10:34.:10:39.

would like to hide, it is undoubtedly the most compact

:10:40.:10:43.

challenge facing this country in my lifetime if not before, therefore we

:10:44.:10:50.

do not need a step like this to move all of -- we do need to move all of

:10:51.:10:55.

the EU legislation into the UK Statute book before we leave. And

:10:56.:10:59.

although we heard an excellent speech highlighting deficiencies and

:11:00.:11:04.

concerns, he didn't set out an alternative way of doing this. In

:11:05.:11:08.

fact, nobody has. Nobody has set out an alternative to this bill to such

:11:09.:11:16.

a degree that it would require any of us in this House to vote against

:11:17.:11:20.

the Bill. I have highlighted deficiencies and concerns which will

:11:21.:11:23.

be ironed out, must be ironed out at committee stage, but that is the

:11:24.:11:28.

truth. Beyond that I'm afraid it is all Porter political activity. This

:11:29.:11:34.

is necessary or something similar to it is necessary, so let's move

:11:35.:11:40.

forward together. When I explained this principle to my constituents

:11:41.:11:46.

back in Newark, many of you will have been to Newark, but not

:11:47.:11:50.

necessarily to the business plant, my constituents, businessmen and

:11:51.:11:56.

individuals, they nod when I explained this in principle to them

:11:57.:11:59.

because it is obvious that we need a bill of this nature so that on the

:12:00.:12:02.

day we leave the European Union they can have confidence that nothing

:12:03.:12:06.

substantial will have changed. And that is why we need to proceed. In

:12:07.:12:14.

closing, and perhaps this answers, or is there a rebuke to the

:12:15.:12:18.

honourable lady? You can love Parliament, you can want to

:12:19.:12:22.

jealously guard its right and privileges, created by our

:12:23.:12:26.

predecessors, but still show pragmatism in the national interest

:12:27.:12:29.

when the times demanded. Because that's politics. That's life, that's

:12:30.:12:34.

the job we are scented to do, that is poetry and prose, romance and

:12:35.:12:39.

reality, that is what we are sent here to achieve, so everyone who

:12:40.:12:42.

wants a smooth transition, everyone who wants to give our constituents

:12:43.:12:44.

the certainty that they are crying out for, who may have concerns about

:12:45.:13:08.

the deficiencies of this bill wants to work together in the national

:13:09.:13:10.

interest to iron them out jury in the committee stage and third

:13:11.:13:13.

reading, everybody I suggest in this House should vote for this bill at

:13:14.:13:14.

second reading. I just want to make one observation,

:13:15.:13:27.

one on clause six and one on clause nine. I'm sorry, I disagree with the

:13:28.:13:31.

member of Newark who has just spoken. What is proposed in this

:13:32.:13:37.

bill is unprecedented. You could see that from the reaction on both sides

:13:38.:13:42.

of the House. There is an absurdity in this debate. I spent much time in

:13:43.:13:46.

the EU referendum campaigning against those who wanted to Vote

:13:47.:13:51.

Leave the other side of the House. The central core of their argument

:13:52.:13:54.

more often than not was the fact that there this Brussels elite that

:13:55.:13:59.

was exercising all this power. Now I'd sat in this chamber for most of

:14:00.:14:07.

today and listen to them becoming the architects of transferring the

:14:08.:14:10.

power to members in this house. The member for Chingford talked earlier

:14:11.:14:18.

about his debates in the 1990s, the Prime Minister of the time had a

:14:19.:14:23.

word to describe them all, which I won't repeat today. They constantly

:14:24.:14:27.

were invoking parliamentary sovereignty, the importance of this

:14:28.:14:30.

house, determining the future of our nation. It is funny how silent they

:14:31.:14:35.

are when it comes to upholding that argument and have been over the last

:14:36.:14:38.

few hours of this debate. Let's be honest about the reason for this,

:14:39.:14:45.

their position on this debate, they promised Brexit in terms which

:14:46.:14:48.

simply cannot be delivered in the time frame that the Government

:14:49.:14:55.

envisages. That's why you see these unprecedented, extraordinary powers

:14:56.:14:58.

in visited in this bill for the executive. I think it is entirely

:14:59.:15:01.

right for us to keep reminding people what the promises were and

:15:02.:15:04.

whether they are being delivered. My technical point on clause six...

:15:05.:15:10.

I won't give away am afraid, because of the time. The secretary of the

:15:11.:15:20.

state... OK... The Secretary of State today said that the Government

:15:21.:15:23.

wishes the transitional arrangements to be as close as possible to the

:15:24.:15:28.

existing arrangements. Let's be clear that the EU 27 really only

:15:29.:15:32.

going to entertain membership of the single market and a form of customs

:15:33.:15:39.

union if that is what the Secretary of State means, but they will also

:15:40.:15:44.

expect that the rules were applied to the transitional arrangements

:15:45.:15:47.

should be uniform and similar to the ones that we have at the moment. The

:15:48.:15:52.

problem with article six as it is drafted is that it does not give a

:15:53.:15:56.

clear enough instruction to the judiciary that when they are

:15:57.:16:00.

interpreting UK law after the exit date, they should do it in a way

:16:01.:16:05.

that complies with EU law, insofar as transition is concerned. This is

:16:06.:16:09.

the point the Institute for government have made. They say that

:16:10.:16:14.

the ambiguity on this point would risk leaving judges stranded on the

:16:15.:16:17.

front line of a fierce political battle. I can say is someone who

:16:18.:16:23.

practised law for the best part of the decade, it has to be addressed.

:16:24.:16:27.

My last more substantial point is this... This bill cannot be allowed

:16:28.:16:33.

to come into force unless this house has approved the deal that is

:16:34.:16:37.

envisaged. This bill doesn't state whether any withdrawal agreement

:16:38.:16:44.

will need to be consented to by both houses before the powers in this

:16:45.:16:48.

bill can be used. The Government has said that we will get a vote on a

:16:49.:16:53.

final deal. But that does not appear to be within legislation, it will be

:16:54.:17:01.

by means of a motion, and of course that is not legally binding. So we

:17:02.:17:06.

have the promise of a vote, but it has no teeth and it deprives this

:17:07.:17:10.

house of having its proper say, not just on any withdrawal agreement,

:17:11.:17:15.

but on the situation which has been talked about by the Prime Minister,

:17:16.:17:19.

where there is an affirmative decision made to walk away without a

:17:20.:17:24.

deal at all. Somehow we are meant to be passive spectators in that

:17:25.:17:27.

situation. It has to be written on the face of this bill that

:17:28.:17:30.

Parliament will have our part to play in all those scenarios, and no

:17:31.:17:33.

powers under this bill will be exercised until Parliament has had

:17:34.:17:38.

its say through a debate written in statute.

:17:39.:17:40.

I would just finished by saying this: we've been given many

:17:41.:17:43.

guarantees and assurances by the front bench here. It has to be, on

:17:44.:17:49.

the face of the bill. Asking for these assurances and scrutinising

:17:50.:17:53.

this bill, we do so in the national interest and are entitled to do so

:17:54.:17:56.

without our motives being questioned.

:17:57.:18:02.

Madam Deputy Speaker, in the short time I've got can I firstly echo

:18:03.:18:08.

many of the sentiments from honourable, right honourable members

:18:09.:18:11.

who are supporting this bill and are very supportive of the points made.

:18:12.:18:18.

I voted to leave the EU, as did 67% of voters in my constituency. During

:18:19.:18:22.

the campaign became quite clear there was disillusionment with what

:18:23.:18:27.

the EU had become. The message I got loud and clear from constituents on

:18:28.:18:31.

the doorstep was that yes, there was a degree of concern over immigration

:18:32.:18:38.

and controls on immigration, but the overall frustration is around our

:18:39.:18:42.

sovereignty and inability to control our own laws. This bill is going to

:18:43.:18:46.

repeal the European Communities Act from the day we leave, bringing a

:18:47.:18:51.

welcome dent to the supremacy of EU law in the UK. I support the main

:18:52.:18:56.

purpose of it, in ensuring the UK has a functioning statute book once

:18:57.:19:00.

they leave the EU, which is obviously in the national interest.

:19:01.:19:05.

Like many people, I've seen first-hand the negative impact EU

:19:06.:19:09.

laws and regulations can have on our local economy during the 20 years I

:19:10.:19:14.

spent running my own small business. Many of the regulations and things

:19:15.:19:17.

back row which affected my firm stemmed from Brussels, yet I was

:19:18.:19:21.

unable to trade with its markets. To put this into some context, only 5%

:19:22.:19:28.

of our businesses export to the EU, yet 100% are caught by its red tape,

:19:29.:19:32.

with small businesses usually disproportionately affected.

:19:33.:19:37.

During the referendum campaign, research across West Midlands more

:19:38.:19:40.

businesses showed they represented 99% of employees, implying 58% of

:19:41.:19:48.

local people. By ratio of 4:1, they thought the EU laws made it harder

:19:49.:19:53.

to take on staff. By 2:1, regulation hindered not helped them, and a

:19:54.:19:58.

massive 70% thought the UK, not the EU, should be in charge of

:19:59.:20:01.

negotiating trade agreements. I am mindful that we need to create

:20:02.:20:08.

an environment that works for everyone, not just those of us who

:20:09.:20:11.

voted leave, so I would ask the Government to take into account the

:20:12.:20:16.

following two points, as this bill moves forward. Firstly, businesses

:20:17.:20:20.

are already making decisions in preparation for March that -- 2019.

:20:21.:20:31.

They will need certain commitments. If that much of the detail of the

:20:32.:20:36.

new legal framework will be brought forward through secondary

:20:37.:20:39.

legislation, it is vital that the processes of the Withdrawal Bill and

:20:40.:20:42.

a programme of structure tree instruments be prepared well in

:20:43.:20:47.

advance of March 2019, to provide them with the confidence they need.

:20:48.:20:53.

Second, in order to avoid legal vacuum from leaving the EU, it's

:20:54.:20:58.

important that any considered -- inconsistencies within EU

:20:59.:21:02.

legislation are dressed prior to the transposition into UK law. I would

:21:03.:21:07.

therefore stressed the need for government to consult fully with

:21:08.:21:10.

stakeholders during the process of drafting and playing statutory

:21:11.:21:13.

instruments, to ensure any inconsistencies between EU and UK

:21:14.:21:17.

legislation, especially the practical implications, are fully

:21:18.:21:23.

addressed by these measures. So to conclude, Madam Deputy

:21:24.:21:26.

Speaker, I firmly believe that there are exciting times ahead for the UK

:21:27.:21:31.

outside of the EU, and with due consideration is given to the issues

:21:32.:21:34.

I mentioned, I believe this bill will provide the pathway to the

:21:35.:21:38.

smooth except that we all want to see, and I will be backing it in the

:21:39.:21:42.

lobby on Monday, supporting both my constituents and the UK's democratic

:21:43.:21:51.

decision to leave the EU. Briefly I want to focus on the

:21:52.:21:56.

Government bars 's wilful misinterpretation of what Brexit

:21:57.:21:58.

means and the constitutional car crash this bill entails. Article 50

:21:59.:22:04.

has been triggered. We are leaving the European Union. But sense can

:22:05.:22:11.

prevail, if the Government would guarantee our future within the

:22:12.:22:15.

single market, customs union and pan-European agencies which are the

:22:16.:22:21.

foundation, of course, of Wales' economy. Stating that we can have

:22:22.:22:25.

these advantages by another name is self-deluding. The benefits of

:22:26.:22:31.

continuing our membership of the customs union and single market are

:22:32.:22:34.

well rehearsed, but they warrant unabridged version, because these

:22:35.:22:41.

guide my party's principles. Wales' export led economy is reliant

:22:42.:22:48.

on European markets, where 67% of our products find their final

:22:49.:22:54.

destination. Wales is a net beneficiary of European funding to

:22:55.:22:58.

the tune of ?245 million. All in all, 200,000 Welsh jobs are

:22:59.:23:05.

inextricably, crucially, vulnerably linked with these great institutions

:23:06.:23:11.

of European economic cooperation. For the sake of argument, let's

:23:12.:23:16.

assume that the dozens of economists, experts and I are

:23:17.:23:21.

scaremongering. It is not 200,000 jobs that will disappear from the

:23:22.:23:26.

Welsh economy but perhaps only half of that or a quarter. So with the

:23:27.:23:32.

Minister please be precise and would he please quantify how many Welsh

:23:33.:23:36.

jobs he is willing to sacrifice in pursuit of the UK's brave new role

:23:37.:23:42.

at the vanguard of some globalist utopia?

:23:43.:23:47.

The Shadow Secretary of State was eloquent today, and he concentrated

:23:48.:23:51.

on the Government's attempted constitutional sleight of hand.

:23:52.:23:55.

Despite the various contradictory push me, pull you positions of

:23:56.:24:01.

numerous Shadow Cabinet members as a whole, I believe there are official

:24:02.:24:04.

position is evidently to simply delay the pain and pull us out of

:24:05.:24:09.

the customs union and the single market following a period of

:24:10.:24:14.

transition. The on the single market and customs

:24:15.:24:19.

union, there are upwards of 40 pan-European agencies that form the

:24:20.:24:22.

basis of our international relations across a range of policy areas.

:24:23.:24:28.

Whether it is insuring aeroplanes can take safely on land, life-saving

:24:29.:24:32.

medicines or the safety and security of nuclear material, it seems the

:24:33.:24:36.

Government is willing to sacrifice all the advantages made by

:24:37.:24:40.

membership of these agencies, but for what?

:24:41.:24:43.

For what? We are now staring down the barrel of an extreme Brexit gun,

:24:44.:24:49.

and the truth is the two Westminster parties have their finger on the

:24:50.:24:53.

trigger together. Now, my party exists to serve the people of Wales.

:24:54.:25:00.

And that is why I felt it important to reemphasise what the consequences

:25:01.:25:05.

are for Wales particularly. We are also seeing today, and I'm sure the

:25:06.:25:13.

member later will discuss in more data, the constitutional paragraph

:25:14.:25:16.

not just here in terms of Henry VIII powers but in the powers that have

:25:17.:25:20.

been handed to our delegated nations underweight those will be handled in

:25:21.:25:25.

the future here is frankly shameful. I will not therefore apologise for

:25:26.:25:30.

defending my country from the disastrous dystopia that will be

:25:31.:25:34.

created by this government's Brexit strategy and I will be voting

:25:35.:25:36.

against this bill on second reading. The question is that the debate has

:25:37.:25:52.

been adjourned. As many are of that opinion say I macro. I think the

:25:53.:26:02.

ayes have it. Debate to be resumed, what day? Monday. Debate to be

:26:03.:26:04.

resumed on Monday. The question is that this house now

:26:05.:26:21.

adjourned. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.

:26:22.:26:23.

It is a pleasure to have the opportunity to raise the issue of

:26:24.:26:32.

the sale of the hive playing fields and to seek my honourable friend,

:26:33.:26:36.

the Minister for local government on the front bench answering this at

:26:37.:26:40.

this particular debate, and I will well understand if my honourable

:26:41.:26:46.

friend has problems in answering the debate, given the mix-up there has

:26:47.:26:52.

been between DCM SND CMG on who should answer this particular debate

:26:53.:26:56.

but I am delighted I have the right person answering the debate. I read

:26:57.:27:03.

thank... Via your good offices, I would like to thank the Speaker for

:27:04.:27:07.

granting me the opportunity for raising this particular issue

:27:08.:27:09.

tonight. This is a tale of mystery and

:27:10.:27:15.

financial mismanagement by both Harrow Council and Camden Council,

:27:16.:27:22.

as well as the attempts by obscure private organisations to take over

:27:23.:27:29.

this particular public asset. On repeated occasions I have raised

:27:30.:27:37.

the abuse by Barnet football club of the Hive and the fact they have

:27:38.:27:40.

failed to adhere to any single one of the management agreements that

:27:41.:27:45.

have been in place for these playing fields for the last ten years so

:27:46.:27:52.

tonight my key concern is the creeping transfer of this essential

:27:53.:27:59.

public asset over which public authorities have attempted to exert

:28:00.:28:04.

control, and being transferred to private companies without any checks

:28:05.:28:11.

or balances and to companies that have a history of abusing the

:28:12.:28:19.

commitments that they have made. I start essentially with a brief

:28:20.:28:26.

history of this particular site. Originally this site was known as

:28:27.:28:29.

the Prince Edwards and Watson 's playing fields, and for some reason,

:28:30.:28:34.

which I've not yet been able to fathom, it was owned by the London

:28:35.:28:39.

Borough of Camden. Took the decision in November 2001 to transfer this

:28:40.:28:46.

asset to the London Borough of Harrow, which is a very sensible

:28:47.:28:50.

move, given that the site is wholly in the London Borough of Harrow and

:28:51.:28:55.

always has been. So why it was in the hands of the London Borough of

:28:56.:29:00.

Camden is still a mystery to me. But the key point here is we can

:29:01.:29:07.

understand why such a transfer that took place. And they duly

:29:08.:29:14.

transferred it to the London Borough of Harrow knowing Harrow would have

:29:15.:29:20.

to pick up the cost of maintenance. However, under the land transfer,

:29:21.:29:24.

the agreement was the London Borough of Harrow would pay the London

:29:25.:29:27.

Borough of Camden half of the value that they received in the event,

:29:28.:29:37.

plus 4% of the cognitive bank base rate if the bank were to be sold

:29:38.:29:44.

before 2041. Here we are at in 2017 on the site has been sold. I

:29:45.:29:50.

understand they have not received a penny piece.

:29:51.:30:06.

Subtitles resume on "Thursday in Parliament" at 11pm.

:30:07.:30:09.