Live Urgent Question House of Commons

important role for Britain but just

as a provider of military power but

wisdom and skill, history and

tradition and refutation. --

reputation.

Could he make a

statement on the political situation

in Catalonia.

The events of the past

few weeks and Catalonia are a matter

of public record. The Catalonian

authorities held a referendum on

independence on the 1st of October

that was found by the Spanish courts

to be illegal under the Spanish

constitution. Holding it was

therefore illegal and an attempt to

undermine the rule of law. The

Catalan parliament then unilaterally

declared independence on the 27th of

October. Majesty's, does not and

will not recognise this declaration

of Independence, based on a vote

that was declared illegal by the

Spanish courts and we continue to

want to see the rule of law upheld,

the Spanish constitution respected

and Spanish unity was preserved.

Beastie situation in Catalonia is an

internal matter for Spain and its

people. The Spanish Government has

set a date in December for regional

elections, this provides a path to

return to the rule of war which is

an important principle that the UK

strongly supports for all the people

of Catalonia to have your say the

democratic processes that are

consistent with the Spanish

constitution. -- rule of war. --

rule of law. The alley close friend

whose strength and unity matters to

us and we consider that essential

that

. But I am asking the Government to

act in two ways, to call on the

parties in Catalonia to enter into

talks and secondly Forrest Doi for

us to facilitate progress.

No one

can doubt this is a political rather

than legal matter. Getting both

parties to talk is the way forward.

In this situation the UK Government

has a responsibility and

opportunity, firstly to ensure the

safety and security of UK citizens

living in Catalonia and secondly as

a leading European power, member of

the Council of Europe, either the EU

and of Nato and the United Nations

Security Council, this is happening

in our neighbourhood. Thirdly and

uniquely, the UK Government has a

recent experience of an independence

referendum carried out in Scotland

and lastly by agreement. We have

some advice to offer and of course

the hard-won peace agreements in

Northern Ireland rests partly on the

opportunity for all to have a see

any referendum. And my debate on

Catalonia the minister replying said

that no request for advice had been

made by the Spanish Government and

none offered by the UK Government. I

now ask that that often be made.

I

do not share the view of how Britain

should take an interest in the

internal fears of Spain. Talks of

them are an internal matter, it is

in deed a legal matter and in the

same way we held an independence

referendum it was with the law

without any case of Spain it is not.

In respect of UK citizens I believe

I am right in saying we have had no

reported consumer problems and I

hope that remains the case.

Is this

not a cause for celebration, fast

that at least no violence has

adopted of a significant nature and

Spain and secondly that the example

of the way in which we are handled

independence questions whichever

side we are on an ocean to the

Scottish independence, perhaps it is

cause for satisfaction and example

to others.

Obviously there were some

scenes on television of acts of

violence and they are not the sort

of things we want to see but the

fundamental point is whether or not

this declaration of Independence of

the referendum was legal and it was

not. In terms of the comparison

between Scotland and Catalonia, no

two situations are alike and eg to

be considered in their own context

and what is clear is that in this

case the vote and subsequent actions

in the Catalan parliament were

neither legal nor constitutional.

I

was introduced to hear the

contribution and they agree with

him. I believe we are currently in a

very dangerous session with the

future of Catalonia has been turned

into a binary choice between a

unilateral decoration of

Independence and direct rule from

Madrid. I do not believe that either

of those choices offers a

satisfactory solution to this crisis

and I do not believe that either

choice is what the majority of

Catalans or Spaniards actually want.

I believe that what the majority

wants to see his peaceful sensible

dialogue between parties to try and

find a resolution. That is what the

Socialist party of Catalonia

supports and the Socialist party of

Spain and we support our sister

parties in that endeavour. We are

currently seeing from the

governments of Spain and Catalonia

is far from peaceful and sensible

dialogue as it is possible to get.

From Madrid we see the use of

officially sanctioned violence and

intimidation by the police,, scenes

that are horrific to watch. Forward

over the last month by equally heavy

handled political tactics and from

Barcelona we see a unilateral

declaration of Independence based on

a referendum which has no

constitutional basis on which the 2%

of Catalan residents were not

permitted to take part and if that

40% chose not to take part. Neither

of these approaches offers a

sustainable way forward, neither is

a fear of democratic way to proceed

and my fear is that the longer we

are stuck with this false binary

choice, the deeper and more

entrenched the divisions will become

and the harder it will be to

negotiate a peaceful solution. It is

a matter of urgency, we recall on

both sides to step back to ease the

confrontational rhetoric and

heavy-handed tactics and start

listening to what the majority of

people in Spain and Catalonia

actually want which is peace,

dialogue and an edge to division.

What is the UK Government doing to

promote this? Or does Brexit success

from our ability to pay any in

Europe that the honest answer is not

a lot.

I agree with the second part

of her response which is that as

usual not a lot, this was illegal

and against the rule of law. I do

disagree anyway she portrays this as

a choice. This is not a binary

choice as she describes, it is a

binary choice between upholding the

rule of law or not.

I understand the

reluctance to and to feel in Spanish

internal affairs and respect the

view of the Foreign Office that the

referendum was illegal. My

constituents were disturbed to see

Spanish police removing other boxes

and people being prevented from

voting. We do however have a very

strong legitimate interest in the

way in which Spain regards our

sovereign citizens and Gibraltar.

Can he confirm that Spain and

respects their wishes to remain

British.

We fully support Spain and upholding

the working of its constitution and

we will stand with Spain in opposing

illegalities literally see.

A lot of

fake news has come out of Catalonia,

not least a number of casualties

which was inflated by the Catalan

authority. One woman saying she had

every single finger broken one by

one by the police, then later went

on television to say this was not

true, none of them had been broken.

Can the Minister assure us that if

in this country a counsellor were to

agree an illegal budget, they would

be pursued by the law. That is all

of this land, and we will respect

the law of other countries when it

is pursued beer as well.

I agree

very strongly and say that each

country has its laws, and those laws

in each country is made by a

sovereign parliament, and do not

forget that Spain is a working

democracy, should be upheld. We have

been saying so. We should a very

firm statement last week when the

declaration of Independence took

place, standing firmly with Spain

and upholding the constitution.

Is

there any need for the government to

provide additional guidance to the

tens of thousands of Brits living in

Catalonia, but also those planning

on holiday in the next year?

I would

think much of life will continue as

normal. I do not wish to dissuade

tourists wrangling there. In terms

of demonstration and violence,

things have calmed down, and they

were very tightly focused on the

first wave. , great people to

continue going as tourists, and in

the same spirit we welcome Spanish

people here.

Will he accept that the

most fundamental of all principles

is the right of people to determine

their own future? Does he not recall

that the unilateral declaration of

Independence by the United States of

America, Norway, Slovenia, were all

illegal and unconstitutional, does

he agree that if the law makes it

illegal for people to express an

opinion, the law must change, rather

than the people? There is conclusive

evidence of the Spanish state

sending people into demonstrations

to incite violence against the

police, there is conclusive evidence

of excess of police brutality. How

can it be law to threatened to

arrest a blogger who's opinion the

King president does not agree with?

If this had happened in other

countries, does he accept the United

Kingdom would be making

representations that it would have

to stop, because the United Kingdom

takes pride that it does not allow

borders to stand on the way of human

rights. Will the government agreed

to put pressure on the European

Union to offer to act as a mediator

to the wishes of the people of

Catalonia and Spain can be resolved

in a way that does not involve any

other unlawful acts by the state.

I

think the answer is no. I consider

this an internal matter, it is not

through other countries to instruct

how to perform. Scotland in

Catalonia and not the same as

countries oppressed by the Soviet

Union, so we should not draw

parallels between different

situations, and the Spanish courts

have ruled it was not held within

the framework. The Scottish

Referendum was legal, held following

the signature of the Edinburgh at

agreement between the Scottish

Government and the United Kingdom

government and was overseen by the

Electoral Commission.

He is aware

that Spain in this country are

members of the Council of Europe,

and does work with the Venice

commission that has a code of

practice on referendum. This code of

practice is getting quite ancient,

back in 2006 it was first drafted.

Wouldn't he agree that if you are a

member of the Council of Europe, you

subscribe to the Venice commission,

it is importing your referendums

held under a rule of law, which be

maintained?

Indeed yes, if that is

what the code of conduct says and it

is clear, the country should do

things within the rule of law, and

in the case of the Catalonian

referendum and subsequent

declaration of Independence, both

were knocked.

The Spanish

authorities have learned nothing,

and forgotten nothing. Wouldn't it

be good, as a friend of Spain, but

with the EU we were to suggest they

hold a legally binding referendum on

the future of Catalonia then

everyone could be satisfied?

They

are entitled to do what they choose

within the workings of the

Constitution, but it is not for us

to tell them how to go about it.

May

I welcome the measured approach my

honourable friend is taking. Could

he tell me how her majesties

government would approach the

situation in which a warrant power

was telling us in how to run our own

internal affairs? -- which a foreign

power was telling us.

Indeed I hope

his committee might look at this in

some respects to look at the

comparative situations across the

world. If they were to do so, they

would conclude things along the

lines I have been saying today.

If

the UK Government does not get

involved in the internal fears of

four countries, does that not render

the work of a lot of ambassador --

the internal affairs of other

countries, does that not render the

work of a lot of ambassador is as

useless?

My constituents have sent me a

number of e-mails about this, and I

had a visit to my constituency

surgery by a Catalonian Spanish

constituent. With the Minister agree

that the policing style of the

original poll was heavy-handed,

would he agree that the only way

forward is by peaceful dialogue

towards a resolution?

I am reluctant

to speculate but one thing that has

been said is that the police did not

take orders from the government. It

is not for me to judge that. This

was an illegal referendum and is

therefore not valid and against the

rule of law. So it counts for

nothing.

Lessons could be learned

from this situation. Many reports

say the economic impact will be

catastrophic, leaving Catalonia as a

result. Would he chat with his

Treasury colleagues and commission

work on what this will do for the

Catalonian economy?

It is not for us

to deploy resources to make such a

calculation, but the proper scrutiny

of the economy of Catalonia will

make the facts apparent one way or

another.

The Minister is right to be

careful to draw parallels between

Catalonia and Scotland. But one

similarity is the now dissolved

government in favour of having an

independence referendum, just as

Scotland did, and under the British

constitution, the Scottish

Parliament did not have the power to

hold it. Back to the credit of the

UK Government, they agreed a process

with Alex Salmond whereby a

referendum could be held. All we are

asking is for him to use as good

offices and experience to suggest a

similar approach to the Spanish

allies.

It is up to the government

of Spain, in the same way that this

House's sovereign and agreeing to do

-- what to do with Scotland, it is

up to the Parliament of Spain to

decide on this and not for us to

tell them what course to take.

Does

he agree that notwithstanding the

legality or otherwise of the

referendum, there is an enormous

duty on all parties to speak of

reconciliation and peace moving

forward?

The best way for

reconciliation is to get politicians

in Catalonia to start by saying they

will act in the rule of law and the

workings of the Spanish

constitution, then perhaps they

would stand a greater chance of

getting there.

What we are

witnessing in Catalonia is the

return of tyranny in western Europe,

and would not look kindly on those

who have turned a blind eye to the

actions of the Spanish government.

Shouldn't the British Government now

defend democracy?

I am afraid I

consider the comments that Spain is

returning to tyranny nonsensical and

somewhat ruder than that.

As a Scot,

the recent inexcusable violence,

whatever prompted it, in Catalonia

has brought home to me how important

it was that the Coalition government

enabled the legal referendum of

which we have been speaking and

ensured a proper democratic

dialogue. But does not agree that

perhaps he could speak to his

Spanish counterparts and impart the

wisdom of having taken that approach

and counsel them that perhaps

reasonable consolatory approaches

might prevent more violence and

further deterioration?

I have spent

the past year parting wisdom to

counterparts across the world. This

government has more faces than Big

Ben, because during the Scottish

independence referendum, they were

happy for people all over the world

to comment, so the idea for the UK

Government to stay out of this is

laughable. Will be not follow the

advice of the Scottish Government

and at least allow people to

recognise this and move towards a

legally binding referendum?

I did

not quite hear the honourable

gentleman, I thought he was asking

if I recognise the independence?

Legally binding agreement.

This is

an internal matter for Spain, and

now they have taken over the

government of Catalonia, the next

steps can be determined by the

Spanish themselves, not by us.

The

Minister started by saying Spain was

a respected and good friend and

ally. If any good friends and allies

were to go around beating people in

the street, we would step in and

take action to stop them doing so.

Why will the Minister not do this

for Spain?

I have already commented

on this, and I think she has lost

the perspective in which she makes

that judgment.

This minister and

government likes to hide behind the

Spanish rule of law and its

constitution, so how would he

respond to a UN expert who has said

that Spain is in breach of several

articles relating to human rights of

the ICP PR, enshrined in the Spanish

constitution, the Spanish government

itself exploiting its rule of law.

We do not hide behind the rule of

law, we abide