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Well, we have not begun yet. Order,
order. Point of order, Mr Speaker. I | 0:00:26 | 0:00:35 | |
beg to move the House set in
private. As many of that opinion say | 0:00:35 | 0:00:43 | |
aye. Aye! On the contrary no. No!
Division, clear the lobby. | 0:00:43 | 0:00:57 | |
The question is that the House to
sit in private. As many are of that | 0:02:57 | 0:03:03 | |
opinion says aye. Aye. On the
contrary no. No. Taylor is for the | 0:03:03 | 0:03:12 | |
ayes, and tellers for the nos. | 0:03:12 | 0:03:19 | |
Lock the doors! | 0:08:55 | 0:09:04 | |
Please investigate the delay in the
no lobby. | 0:15:55 | 0:16:06 | |
Order. The ayes zero, the noes 1120.
The ayes zero,, the now the noes | 0:18:18 | 0:18:40 | |
Cabot. | 0:18:40 | 0:18:40 | |
Mental health unit use of force Bill
second reading. I beg to move the | 0:18:47 | 0:18:56 | |
use of force will be now read a
second time. A young graduate | 0:18:56 | 0:19:04 | |
embarking on his life aged just 23
and living with his parents and | 0:19:04 | 0:19:10 | |
Thornton Heath suffered his first
ever mental health episode. | 0:19:10 | 0:19:15 | |
Esperance recognised what was
happening and you come to the local | 0:19:15 | 0:19:18 | |
hospital. He ended up in the
hospital in Croydon and dispensed it | 0:19:18 | 0:19:24 | |
with him all day but had to leave
APM full stop. He became agitated | 0:19:24 | 0:19:31 | |
and tried to leave as well.
According to the coroner the staff | 0:19:31 | 0:19:36 | |
like the training to deal with them
and although there are no | 0:19:36 | 0:19:40 | |
allegations he attacked anyone they
called the police. 11 police | 0:19:40 | 0:19:45 | |
officers took Mr Lewis injury
seclusion room and using compliance | 0:19:45 | 0:19:54 | |
techniques against violent criminals
they held him facedown on the floor | 0:19:54 | 0:19:57 | |
for 30 minutes. His hands were
covered behind his backs and his | 0:19:57 | 0:20:01 | |
legs were in restraints. They held
him like that until he could no | 0:20:01 | 0:20:05 | |
longer breathe and he suffered a
heart attack. He went into a coma | 0:20:05 | 0:20:09 | |
and four days later he was dead. The
coroner criticised his treatment as | 0:20:09 | 0:20:16 | |
disproportionate and unreasonable
not patient entering a hospital for | 0:20:16 | 0:20:21 | |
care should suffer and die the way
that Shaney did. It took seven years | 0:20:21 | 0:20:30 | |
of struggle by Shaney's grieving
parents until an inquest was finally | 0:20:30 | 0:20:35 | |
opened this year. The coroner found
severe failings by the police and | 0:20:35 | 0:20:39 | |
mental health services and gave this
stark warning. There is a risk that | 0:20:39 | 0:20:44 | |
future deaths will occur unless
action is taken. That action is this | 0:20:44 | 0:20:48 | |
Bill. What happened to Shaney is not
an isolated incident. According to | 0:20:48 | 0:20:59 | |
an independent panel 46 mental
health patients died following | 0:20:59 | 0:21:05 | |
restraint up to 2014. I'm grateful
for bringing forward in this Bill. | 0:21:05 | 0:21:14 | |
Many families in my constituency
have contacted me including those | 0:21:14 | 0:21:18 | |
affected by autism. Very concerned
about the facedown restraint my | 0:21:18 | 0:21:21 | |
friend has disclaimed. Disclaimed. | 0:21:21 | 0:21:25 | |
This year grades is important we
have boundaries and the families | 0:21:29 | 0:21:32 | |
have some kind of certainty about
what can and cannot happen in these | 0:21:32 | 0:21:35 | |
facilities. I agree and underrated
the National autism Society are | 0:21:35 | 0:21:42 | |
fully supporting this Bill and the
provisions. I was talking about the | 0:21:42 | 0:21:48 | |
numbers of patients who died
following restraint and the many | 0:21:48 | 0:21:51 | |
more who have been seriously
injured. Government guidelines say | 0:21:51 | 0:21:55 | |
that facedown restraint is so
dangerous, it should not be used at | 0:21:55 | 0:21:58 | |
all. But it was use of a thousand
times and the last year alone | 0:21:58 | 0:22:03 | |
including 2500 times against
children as young as seven. People | 0:22:03 | 0:22:08 | |
have been restrained talk about the
experience and horror. They will | 0:22:08 | 0:22:13 | |
tell you it is frightening, painful
and Jim Elliot in. They feel | 0:22:13 | 0:22:16 | |
stripped of their dignity. In the
words of one woman it made me feel | 0:22:16 | 0:22:23 | |
like cake looks like I had done
something wrong, not that I was ill | 0:22:23 | 0:22:27 | |
and needed to get better. Statistics
show that women are more likely to | 0:22:27 | 0:22:31 | |
be restrained facedown on the floor
than men. After half of all women | 0:22:31 | 0:22:36 | |
and mental health hospitals have
been physically or sexually abused | 0:22:36 | 0:22:40 | |
by men. Subjecting these women into
facedown restraint by groups of men | 0:22:40 | 0:22:44 | |
as to the drama that in many cases
led to their mental illness in the | 0:22:44 | 0:22:47 | |
first place. It is difficult from
the existing data to understand | 0:22:47 | 0:22:52 | |
clearly exec of what is going on. It
is no standardised way of recording | 0:22:52 | 0:22:57 | |
quite when or how restraint is used
but from their own data that appear | 0:22:57 | 0:23:01 | |
to be wide discrepancies between
different mental health providers. | 0:23:01 | 0:23:09 | |
Some as few as 5%, others over 50%
and it is no good reason for that | 0:23:09 | 0:23:13 | |
variation. I'm very grateful for
giving way. Would he agree is no | 0:23:13 | 0:23:26 | |
time that each sector publishes
correctly and robustly the data that | 0:23:26 | 0:23:32 | |
is available and doesn't he agree
that the minister should make a | 0:23:32 | 0:23:35 | |
commitment to that robust
publication of the data? I agree, | 0:23:35 | 0:23:41 | |
and I hope the Minister will be
making that commitments today. There | 0:23:41 | 0:23:47 | |
are also fears about unconscious
bias in the mental health services. | 0:23:47 | 0:23:53 | |
A very important review was
published earlier this week noting | 0:23:53 | 0:23:55 | |
how a disproportionate number of
people from across the committees | 0:23:55 | 0:24:04 | |
have died. Black people off four
times were likely section than white | 0:24:04 | 0:24:07 | |
people. But the people of and you'll
see many more black faces in the | 0:24:07 | 0:24:18 | |
population as a whole. We do
understand how assumptions based on | 0:24:18 | 0:24:23 | |
stereotypes are causing this but we
need standardised data to do that. | 0:24:23 | 0:24:27 | |
What this bill proposes a simple,
but it will make a big difference. | 0:24:27 | 0:24:31 | |
It will standardise the way data on
every instance where force is used | 0:24:31 | 0:24:36 | |
as recorded so that we can better
understand where forces being used | 0:24:36 | 0:24:40 | |
unnecessarily and the extent of any
bias and is proportionality in the | 0:24:40 | 0:24:43 | |
system. It will improve arrangements
between police and mental health | 0:24:43 | 0:24:48 | |
services and require police to wear
a body cameras when carrying out | 0:24:48 | 0:24:52 | |
restraint unless they are good
operational reasons why not. I | 0:24:52 | 0:25:01 | |
support his bill and the provisions
of clause 13 police body cameras but | 0:25:01 | 0:25:05 | |
is he a way that the rest of his
bill applies to England only and | 0:25:05 | 0:25:09 | |
therefore the police body cameras is
a slight anomaly in that Wales | 0:25:09 | 0:25:13 | |
cannot use the cameras because the
units are devolved to the Welsh | 0:25:13 | 0:25:16 | |
assembly. Would he care to look at
those matters and discuss them with | 0:25:16 | 0:25:21 | |
the Welsh assembly? The member is
correct, and I think the idea of | 0:25:21 | 0:25:28 | |
engaging with the Welsh assembly as
the bill proceeds as an excellent | 0:25:28 | 0:25:33 | |
idea and I would hope to have his
support in doing that. | 0:25:33 | 0:25:44 | |
I congratulate what he is bringing
forward and will declare an | 0:25:44 | 0:25:48 | |
interest. My son is a CPI, although
not practising. Would he agree with | 0:25:48 | 0:25:53 | |
me that there is also made to look
at the wider process of how people | 0:25:53 | 0:25:57 | |
are taken into care? The sectioning
process, under the Mental Health Act | 0:25:57 | 0:26:04 | |
of 1983, does not really allow any
accountability to the victim, and | 0:26:04 | 0:26:09 | |
this bill, whilst important, needs
to be part of that wider context of | 0:26:09 | 0:26:13 | |
how we deal with someone at their
most vulnerable when they have been | 0:26:13 | 0:26:17 | |
sectioned. I very much agree with
the honourable gentleman. The | 0:26:17 | 0:26:23 | |
government are commissioning a much
wider review of the mental health | 0:26:23 | 0:26:26 | |
services, that I hope will encompass
the point he is speaking about, but | 0:26:26 | 0:26:30 | |
it would be for the Minister to
clarify on that point. The bill will | 0:26:30 | 0:26:33 | |
make sure that every mental health
provider has a policy in place | 0:26:33 | 0:26:37 | |
governing the use of force,
including a clear, deliverable plans | 0:26:37 | 0:26:41 | |
are reducing its use and ensuring
that staff are properly trained in | 0:26:41 | 0:26:50 | |
the qualities of de-escalation
techniques needed to avoid the use | 0:26:50 | 0:26:53 | |
of force. It will speed up justice
and allow learning to take place by | 0:26:53 | 0:26:56 | |
ensuring that any non-natural death
in a mental health unit | 0:26:56 | 0:27:00 | |
automatically triggers an
independent investigation and will | 0:27:00 | 0:27:03 | |
make sure that recommendations from
investigations and inquests are | 0:27:03 | 0:27:06 | |
taken into account improving mental
health services in ways that | 0:27:06 | 0:27:13 | |
currently do not happen. This is a
significant step forward in moving | 0:27:13 | 0:27:16 | |
our mental health services from
containment of patients to the care | 0:27:16 | 0:27:20 | |
of patients. It will make sure that
they are treated with compassion and | 0:27:20 | 0:27:24 | |
not cruelty. There is overwhelming
support for this bill across the | 0:27:24 | 0:27:28 | |
mental health sector and I am
grateful for the practical support | 0:27:28 | 0:27:31 | |
that I have received from inquests,
and in particular from their | 0:27:31 | 0:27:38 | |
director, from the widely respected
solicitor who has represented so | 0:27:38 | 0:27:41 | |
many bereaved families following
deaths in custody, Young Men The Uk, | 0:27:41 | 0:27:48 | |
Agenda, The Labour Campaign For
Mental Health, and many others. 38 | 0:27:48 | 0:27:54 | |
degrees holstered an online petition
that has been signed by 60,000 | 0:27:54 | 0:27:59 | |
people all demanding this change.
Looking at it more broadly, I have | 0:27:59 | 0:28:04 | |
watched documentaries on this and
will he not agree with me that there | 0:28:04 | 0:28:09 | |
is an argument, really, of giving
the police better training to | 0:28:09 | 0:28:12 | |
understand some of the difficulties
mental health people have. I | 0:28:12 | 0:28:15 | |
absolutely agree with the point the
honourable gentleman makes but | 0:28:15 | 0:28:19 | |
unfortunately events on the scope of
this bill but very much hope it will | 0:28:19 | 0:28:22 | |
be in scope for the wider review the
government is commissioning. I am | 0:28:22 | 0:28:27 | |
grateful to him for the time he gave
me to discuss his bill a few weeks | 0:28:27 | 0:28:31 | |
ago. About mental health
professionals supporting this bill, | 0:28:31 | 0:28:35 | |
I have spoken to my local care trust
in Bradford, who, while the support | 0:28:35 | 0:28:40 | |
much of voters in the bill, do have
some concerns about some aspects of | 0:28:40 | 0:28:45 | |
the bill and I therefore wondered
how receptive the honourable | 0:28:45 | 0:28:48 | |
gentleman would be two amendments at
either committee stage report stage | 0:28:48 | 0:28:53 | |
the bill to try to address some of
those concerns, determined that -- | 0:28:53 | 0:28:57 | |
or is he determined that the bill
must end up in its current place? I | 0:28:57 | 0:29:01 | |
thank him for his very helpful
intervention and think that the only | 0:29:01 | 0:29:05 | |
way to go forwards with this bill is
through consensus. I have made clear | 0:29:05 | 0:29:09 | |
to both the ministers sitting on the
front bench this morning but as we | 0:29:09 | 0:29:12 | |
go through committee stage, I would
want to work with them | 0:29:12 | 0:29:16 | |
constructively as they have worked
with me so far so that we can secure | 0:29:16 | 0:29:19 | |
an outcome that can be supported by
all sides in this House, and right | 0:29:19 | 0:29:25 | |
across. Just this week, on that
point, the chief executives of 29 | 0:29:25 | 0:29:30 | |
mental health organisations have
published a letter urging this | 0:29:30 | 0:29:33 | |
Parliament to back this bill. It is
supported by the Royal College of | 0:29:33 | 0:29:37 | |
Nursing, the Royal College of
psychiatrists, the CQC, NHS England | 0:29:37 | 0:29:42 | |
and trade unions representing staff
who do such an incredible job | 0:29:42 | 0:29:45 | |
working in our mental health
services. I must add my thanks to | 0:29:45 | 0:29:49 | |
the honourable member for Thurrock
for working with me so | 0:29:49 | 0:29:51 | |
constructively on this, and the
Leader of the Opposition, who has | 0:29:51 | 0:29:56 | |
long supported this campaign, going
back before he became leader of | 0:29:56 | 0:30:00 | |
there is on. Thank you very much. --
Leader of the Opposition. I | 0:30:00 | 0:30:07 | |
congratulate my honourable friend
for bringing this forward. Mr Lewis | 0:30:07 | 0:30:12 | |
grew up in my constituency, in High
Peak, and his family, his cousin was | 0:30:12 | 0:30:17 | |
telling me yesterday, what a lovely
young man he was. Never in trouble | 0:30:17 | 0:30:21 | |
with the law. What a loss to society
's years. Does my honourable friend | 0:30:21 | 0:30:26 | |
agree that it should never have
taken six years for his family to | 0:30:26 | 0:30:30 | |
have fought for an inquest in his
case, and to pay tribute to them for | 0:30:30 | 0:30:34 | |
all that they have done to make sure
that this never happens to another | 0:30:34 | 0:30:37 | |
family? I absolutely agree. There is
an old line that Justice delayed is | 0:30:37 | 0:30:46 | |
justice denied and more family who
have lost their child and these | 0:30:46 | 0:30:53 | |
circumstances should not have to
bite the state for a modicum of | 0:30:53 | 0:30:56 | |
justice. I also want to thank the
Prime Minister who has met the Lewis | 0:30:56 | 0:31:01 | |
family on more than one occasion and
I now support the objectives of this | 0:31:01 | 0:31:05 | |
bill. Mr Speaker, I have come to
know his parents very well over the | 0:31:05 | 0:31:10 | |
past two years. They are two of the
most dignified and inspirational | 0:31:10 | 0:31:14 | |
people I have ever met, but they
have suffered pain and anguish that | 0:31:14 | 0:31:19 | |
no parent should ever have to face.
When I asked them what they hoped | 0:31:19 | 0:31:23 | |
for after all they have been
through, they told me they do not | 0:31:23 | 0:31:28 | |
want the Sun's distribute them. They
do not want any other family to | 0:31:28 | 0:31:34 | |
suffer as they have suffered. --
Safira Sun's destined to be in vain. | 0:31:34 | 0:31:39 | |
I say to this House, he did not die
in vain. We can honour his memory by | 0:31:39 | 0:31:44 | |
making sure that nobody else supper
is the way that he did and by making | 0:31:44 | 0:31:47 | |
our mental health services equal and
safe for everyone. I dedicate this | 0:31:47 | 0:31:59 | |
bill to him. The question is that
this bill be read a second time. I | 0:31:59 | 0:32:03 | |
was going to call Mr Moorhouse, but
although he is on the list he is not | 0:32:03 | 0:32:08 | |
standing and is showing an
unaccustomed reluctance to deliver | 0:32:08 | 0:32:11 | |
the House with his views. I am the
second, not the first. If I am | 0:32:11 | 0:32:20 | |
mistaken and he is going to preserve
his thunder, we will hear from him | 0:32:20 | 0:32:23 | |
at a later stage. Gosh, what a
delightful choice awaits me. | 0:32:23 | 0:32:29 | |
Victoria Prentice. I am most
grateful to be called first out of | 0:32:29 | 0:32:36 | |
the smorgasbord of choice that was
just available to you, but it does | 0:32:36 | 0:32:43 | |
in fact give me general pressure --
genuine pleasure to rise to support | 0:32:43 | 0:32:47 | |
this bill and be the first to
congratulate the honourable member | 0:32:47 | 0:32:51 | |
opposite for his enormous hard work.
It is obviously stems from a great | 0:32:51 | 0:32:58 | |
tragedy, but it is always good to
see a piece of constituency casework | 0:32:58 | 0:33:03 | |
come to fruition and get as far as
the floor of this House. I have | 0:33:03 | 0:33:08 | |
enormous respect for the honourable
gentleman, and all the work he has | 0:33:08 | 0:33:12 | |
done with people across this House
and outside to get this far. I wish | 0:33:12 | 0:33:16 | |
him all the best, of course. I thank
the honourable lady forgiving way. | 0:33:16 | 0:33:22 | |
Is it not also time to paid tribute
to Norman Lamb, who, as Health | 0:33:22 | 0:33:27 | |
Secretary, introduced new girl
blinds, with new funding to enter | 0:33:27 | 0:33:36 | |
the deliberate use of force in all
health and care settings and | 0:33:36 | 0:33:39 | |
unfortunately they have not always
been followed? I thank the | 0:33:39 | 0:33:44 | |
honourable lady for her
intervention. It is very important | 0:33:44 | 0:33:46 | |
in these cases that we congratulate
members from across the House and | 0:33:46 | 0:33:52 | |
work together on cross party lines
to achieve the consensus that is | 0:33:52 | 0:33:56 | |
needed so that we support those in
our communities that need laws like | 0:33:56 | 0:34:01 | |
this to keep them safe. I am
grateful. May I add my voice to her | 0:34:01 | 0:34:08 | |
as in congratulating the sponsor of
the bill. It is not just bringing | 0:34:08 | 0:34:11 | |
the bill to the size, it is
gathering that consensus, as she has | 0:34:11 | 0:34:15 | |
said. Does she welcomed the fact
that he is willing to look at | 0:34:15 | 0:34:19 | |
constructive suggestions, whether at
committee or whatever stage, in | 0:34:19 | 0:34:22 | |
order to ensure this bill is in a
proper and better stage? I thank him | 0:34:22 | 0:34:28 | |
for that intervention. Mental health
is an area which we have really | 0:34:28 | 0:34:34 | |
started to begin to both understand
and talk about in very recent years, | 0:34:34 | 0:34:37 | |
and as we do that, we learn from the
experiences of people, both who have | 0:34:37 | 0:34:43 | |
suffered tragedies and have had
better experiences with law | 0:34:43 | 0:34:46 | |
enforcement agencies, or as patients
in hospitals, and it is really | 0:34:46 | 0:34:52 | |
important that we do learn and
listen as we go through the progress | 0:34:52 | 0:34:56 | |
of this debate. There may well be
things that, in the committee stages | 0:34:56 | 0:35:04 | |
which nobody has given a moment's
thought to but a constituent of | 0:35:04 | 0:35:10 | |
somebody in the South will have a
real story to tell and we can learn | 0:35:10 | 0:35:13 | |
from that going forward. I know from
my own constituency casework that | 0:35:13 | 0:35:15 | |
for those at the point of crisis,
the use of restraint can be both | 0:35:15 | 0:35:21 | |
humiliating and traumatising. I
discussed this issue with the | 0:35:21 | 0:35:27 | |
Causeway carers, who are great
organisation, really people who have | 0:35:27 | 0:35:30 | |
suffered | 0:35:30 | 0:35:33 | |
organisation, really people who have
suffered, largely be parents of | 0:35:33 | 0:35:35 | |
victims of very severe mental health
problems. They meet once a month and | 0:35:35 | 0:35:40 | |
the group comprises family members
who look after relatives with very | 0:35:40 | 0:35:46 | |
serious mental health problems. Many
had first-hand experience of | 0:35:46 | 0:35:50 | |
sectioning and restraint which they
were happy to share with me, which | 0:35:50 | 0:35:54 | |
was a great privilege. I don't feel
able to share any of those stories | 0:35:54 | 0:35:58 | |
with the House today. From what we
have heard about Olaseni Lewis, we | 0:35:58 | 0:36:02 | |
can all imagine the sort of stories
that we now are taking place even on | 0:36:02 | 0:36:07 | |
the high street, well, from time to
time, but at night often, those sort | 0:36:07 | 0:36:13 | |
of stories are taking place in all
other communities. This is not in | 0:36:13 | 0:36:18 | |
any way an area that is isolated or
that any of us can feel untouched | 0:36:18 | 0:36:24 | |
by. Of course, these are families
suffering enormously because they | 0:36:24 | 0:36:29 | |
are dealing with a very, very ill
member of the family, often a child. | 0:36:29 | 0:36:34 | |
Restraint is added to that dreadful
suffering that they have already got | 0:36:34 | 0:36:39 | |
to cope with. I do recognise that
the use of police cells in England | 0:36:39 | 0:36:53 | |
is declining and the more cases than
ever are being referred to the | 0:36:53 | 0:37:01 | |
health units, which is progress. We
should welcome the significant | 0:37:01 | 0:37:06 | |
reduction in the number of deaths
following police custody since the | 0:37:06 | 0:37:10 | |
position 20 years ago. I imagine
this reflects improved training, | 0:37:10 | 0:37:14 | |
guidance and practices in a number
of areas, but most significantly in | 0:37:14 | 0:37:20 | |
suicide prevention. It strikes me,
with my background as a life in | 0:37:20 | 0:37:26 | |
prison service, and this is in very
sharp contrast to the rates of | 0:37:26 | 0:37:30 | |
suicide that we have recorded in the
last 20 years in prison, where the | 0:37:30 | 0:37:34 | |
number has gone up very and
worryingly. However, it is true... | 0:37:34 | 0:37:41 | |
Yes, of course. I do notice that it
is being very consensual on both | 0:37:41 | 0:37:49 | |
sides of the House and I would like
to retain that, but in both present | 0:37:49 | 0:37:52 | |
and mental health, one of the
linking factors is perhaps the issue | 0:37:52 | 0:37:56 | |
of funding for both sets of
institutions. In my own trust, which | 0:37:56 | 0:38:03 | |
is again in special measures, there
is concern from staff and service | 0:38:03 | 0:38:07 | |
users that a reduction in the number
of staff, nurses and doctors, over | 0:38:07 | 0:38:12 | |
the past five years means that there
is less ability for them to be able | 0:38:12 | 0:38:15 | |
to watch and monitor patients, more
likelihood that those patients are | 0:38:15 | 0:38:21 | |
using medication and therefore
restraint is more likely to be used | 0:38:21 | 0:38:26 | |
and we end up with the situation
that we find the Lewis family in. I | 0:38:26 | 0:38:31 | |
thank the honourable member for his
intervention. Rather than get to | 0:38:31 | 0:38:37 | |
party political about this, I think
it is appropriate to talk about | 0:38:37 | 0:38:40 | |
other difficulties which have led to
reductions in staffing in real terms | 0:38:40 | 0:38:46 | |
in the prison service, because in
fact, on this side of the House, we | 0:38:46 | 0:38:49 | |
can give you loads of facts and
figures about how much more is being | 0:38:49 | 0:38:54 | |
spent. The difficulty that I not
right person at the in my | 0:38:54 | 0:38:58 | |
constituency as we do have a problem
with recruiting and retaining staff. | 0:38:58 | 0:39:03 | |
-- the difficulty that I have in my
constituency. I used this | 0:39:03 | 0:39:08 | |
opportunity to pay tribute to all
those who choose to work in the very | 0:39:08 | 0:39:11 | |
difficult mental health sphere with
patients who suffer from dreadful | 0:39:11 | 0:39:17 | |
illnesses, and I think, as a house
together, we should pay tribute to | 0:39:17 | 0:39:21 | |
the work that is done by them, day
in, day out, with people who, while | 0:39:21 | 0:39:27 | |
ill, are very difficult to deal with
often. One matter on which I am sure | 0:39:27 | 0:39:34 | |
we can agree is how critical it is
that we work further on reducing the | 0:39:34 | 0:39:40 | |
number of UK energy people detained
for mental health reasons and police | 0:39:40 | 0:39:46 | |
cells. The figures are
disproportionately high and it | 0:39:46 | 0:39:50 | |
simply cannot be that black people
are four times more likely to be | 0:39:50 | 0:39:56 | |
detained under the act than white
people. The honourable gentleman | 0:39:56 | 0:39:58 | |
earlier made mention of the Angioli
review and talked about the | 0:39:58 | 0:40:09 | |
importance of standardised data
recording, and I once again revert | 0:40:09 | 0:40:14 | |
to my prison experience... I am
sorry to keep doing this because | 0:40:14 | 0:40:16 | |
they understand that the mental
health system is completely | 0:40:16 | 0:40:19 | |
different from the criminal system,
but there are themes that run | 0:40:19 | 0:40:24 | |
through the way that BAME people are
treated in both systems, which we | 0:40:24 | 0:40:28 | |
are increasingly finding to be
utterly unacceptable. Doesn't she, | 0:40:28 | 0:40:33 | |
in that spirit, and I thank you for
giving way and also pay tribute to | 0:40:33 | 0:40:37 | |
the honourable member for Croydon
North for bringing this, does she go | 0:40:37 | 0:40:40 | |
for welcome, as I do, closes eight
and nine of the bill, which require | 0:40:40 | 0:40:47 | |
the mental health units to record
the relevant characteristics of the | 0:40:47 | 0:40:51 | |
patient in every location which
force is used, and also then that | 0:40:51 | 0:40:57 | |
they must make an annual report to
the Secretary of State so that | 0:40:57 | 0:41:01 | |
health units themselves, but also
the Secretary of State, can review | 0:41:01 | 0:41:05 | |
and understand where there are
patterns of behaviour? I thank her | 0:41:05 | 0:41:09 | |
for her intervention. I could not
agree with her more. The provisional | 0:41:09 | 0:41:14 | |
statistics, the retention of figures
and then the crunching of those | 0:41:14 | 0:41:18 | |
statistics is absolutely critical.
It may not sound exciting, but it is | 0:41:18 | 0:41:23 | |
the only way that we can with those
very real problem of racial | 0:41:23 | 0:41:28 | |
imbalance in both mental health and
in the criminal justice system. I... | 0:41:28 | 0:41:33 | |
It sounds absurd to say that figures
are what is going to push through | 0:41:33 | 0:41:40 | |
racial imbalances, but I really
believe that when we have the facts | 0:41:40 | 0:41:44 | |
and figures such as those provided
recently in the report on the Prison | 0:41:44 | 0:41:49 | |
Service where we learned that 277
black women are imprisoned for every | 0:41:49 | 0:41:55 | |
100 white women, those sort of
figures are utterly unacceptable on | 0:41:55 | 0:42:01 | |
any level. The more we can talk
about figures such as those, that I | 0:42:01 | 0:42:05 | |
really backed up by good evidence,
the better. This is not something | 0:42:05 | 0:42:10 | |
with which a civilised society can
put up. | 0:42:10 | 0:42:18 | |
This Government has already
committed to addressing these | 0:42:18 | 0:42:22 | |
disproportionate high rates of BAME
people detained for mental health | 0:42:22 | 0:42:30 | |
reasons and I am proud of the work
the Government has done and | 0:42:30 | 0:42:32 | |
generally on mental health. We all
know the 1983 act as outdated and it | 0:42:32 | 0:42:39 | |
will be reformed to make it fit for
the modern era. In October 2017 the | 0:42:39 | 0:42:45 | |
Prime Minister and edged a
competitive review of the Mental | 0:42:45 | 0:42:49 | |
Health Act with a planned final in
state of next autumn. The review is | 0:42:49 | 0:42:58 | |
being led by Professor Simon Wesley
a former president of the Royal | 0:42:58 | 0:43:03 | |
College of psychiatrists but I have
what closely in my previous role | 0:43:03 | 0:43:09 | |
when he was able we were working on
a case concerning pardoning of | 0:43:09 | 0:43:15 | |
prisoners who had been shot for
cowardice. He was able to recreate | 0:43:15 | 0:43:21 | |
the mental health states from the
very limited reckons that we had | 0:43:21 | 0:43:25 | |
available and give invaluable
evidence to the court. He has a | 0:43:25 | 0:43:28 | |
great man and I'm sure he is the
right person to lead this review. He | 0:43:28 | 0:43:32 | |
said he expects some of the
solutions to the difficulties July | 0:43:32 | 0:43:35 | |
in the different culture of the
mental health system as well as | 0:43:35 | 0:43:44 | |
potential legislative change.
Personally I have been very | 0:43:44 | 0:43:46 | |
encouraged by the work being done on
mental health in my own constituency | 0:43:46 | 0:43:50 | |
including any veteran support group
which meets next to my constituency | 0:43:50 | 0:44:00 | |
office once a month behind the wire.
It is a former military | 0:44:00 | 0:44:04 | |
establishment and the people who
access it feel very comfortable and | 0:44:04 | 0:44:08 | |
in that environment. It is
well-known as a group that veterans | 0:44:08 | 0:44:13 | |
are more prone to experience mental
health issues other people and | 0:44:13 | 0:44:20 | |
society, this particular group
offers droppings for veterans and | 0:44:20 | 0:44:23 | |
the local area to meet organisations
including the support and power | 0:44:23 | 0:44:28 | |
advocate and promote service, Help
For Heroes, the Royal British | 0:44:28 | 0:44:32 | |
Legion, veterans UK and rethink
mentioned earlier to do a great deal | 0:44:32 | 0:44:38 | |
of work across the country. As well
as this particular group I have | 0:44:38 | 0:44:43 | |
other local organisations who are
doing great things supporting my | 0:44:43 | 0:44:46 | |
constituents including other store
in Banbury who I met with recently. | 0:44:46 | 0:44:52 | |
I visited the local branch of mind
to support today's Bill and I caught | 0:44:52 | 0:45:03 | |
the letter, the proposals in this
bill are crucial to protecting | 0:45:03 | 0:45:07 | |
people experiencing a mental health
crisis. With fewer support the bill | 0:45:07 | 0:45:11 | |
would lead to better training for
staff, better data improved | 0:45:11 | 0:45:16 | |
transparency and highlighting
problem areas. -- with your support. | 0:45:16 | 0:45:22 | |
It gives me great pleasure to not
only supports the gentleman but | 0:45:22 | 0:45:26 | |
stand up for my constituents who
have contacted me to ask me to be | 0:45:26 | 0:45:29 | |
here today and to speak and one
final word that is a former civil | 0:45:29 | 0:45:33 | |
servant I cannot emphasise how much,
how important it is that we have a | 0:45:33 | 0:45:39 | |
joined up approach to cross
department on this issue. It is very | 0:45:39 | 0:45:42 | |
much not a matter for the health
Department, the Ministry of Justice | 0:45:42 | 0:45:45 | |
and also involved and I speak to
them frequently about mental health | 0:45:45 | 0:45:52 | |
and prisoners and the use of
restraint any criminal justice | 0:45:52 | 0:45:55 | |
system and they very much up that
the Minister and the wind will | 0:45:55 | 0:45:59 | |
reaffirm the importance of cross
governmental cooperation including | 0:45:59 | 0:46:03 | |
work with NHS England on the
delivery of reforms to detention. I | 0:46:03 | 0:46:13 | |
am grateful to you, and may I begin
by paying tribute to the member for | 0:46:13 | 0:46:22 | |
Croydon for bringing forward this
legislation which I very much | 0:46:22 | 0:46:25 | |
support. And common I am sure with
most members of this House, mental | 0:46:25 | 0:46:32 | |
health is a rising issue in my
constituency and many constituents | 0:46:32 | 0:46:37 | |
are frequently in contact with me
about it and in particular ask me to | 0:46:37 | 0:46:41 | |
come and speak in this debate. I
would like to talk about the two | 0:46:41 | 0:46:46 | |
provisions in this bill which I
think are very important, first of | 0:46:46 | 0:46:49 | |
all I think it is so important to
have transplants. I believe that | 0:46:49 | 0:46:58 | |
sunlight is the best form of
disinfectant and if you can see | 0:46:58 | 0:47:03 | |
photos going on, people are much
less likely to behave in an | 0:47:03 | 0:47:08 | |
inappropriate fashion so I think the
use of body cameras which we have | 0:47:08 | 0:47:12 | |
seen in so many other areas of
police work has done such good work, | 0:47:12 | 0:47:17 | |
very much welcomed in this piece of
legislation and secondly I very much | 0:47:17 | 0:47:25 | |
welcome provisions in this
legislation and audition to | 0:47:25 | 0:47:29 | |
effective recording. I know one of
the frustrations of many of my | 0:47:29 | 0:47:33 | |
constituents who have mental health
problems of his family members have | 0:47:33 | 0:47:40 | |
is that interactions with public
bodies whether that is the police, a | 0:47:40 | 0:47:47 | |
local authority, schools, the
information is not properly collated | 0:47:47 | 0:47:51 | |
and not properly showered and
therefore patients and their | 0:47:51 | 0:47:53 | |
families feel they are constantly
going around in circles repeating | 0:47:53 | 0:47:58 | |
information. The more we can do to
entertain that information, the | 0:47:58 | 0:48:03 | |
better treatment we will receive for
those affected. The -- retainer that | 0:48:03 | 0:48:09 | |
information. The route lies in a
need for a change in attitudes | 0:48:09 | 0:48:15 | |
towards mental health. If you look
at my own constituency it is quite a | 0:48:15 | 0:48:21 | |
dramatic of the changes that have
happened in the past 30 or 40 years. | 0:48:21 | 0:48:27 | |
I give way... Would he agree with me
that no matter what equipment you | 0:48:27 | 0:48:33 | |
have, if you do not have the great
staffing levels, I am a nurse and I | 0:48:33 | 0:48:37 | |
know we do not have enough nurses,
that also is at the root of the | 0:48:37 | 0:48:44 | |
problem and you need to address the
staffing levels. I quite agree. That | 0:48:44 | 0:48:49 | |
is why I am so pleased that the
Government has protected police | 0:48:49 | 0:48:54 | |
funding and if you look in relation
to the health service I was going to | 0:48:54 | 0:49:00 | |
come onto this points but I will
raise its now that we are moving | 0:49:00 | 0:49:05 | |
towards achieving parity between
mental and physical health and some | 0:49:05 | 0:49:07 | |
of the statistics are very welcome,
for example we are now spending | 0:49:07 | 0:49:12 | |
£11.6 billion a year on mental
health. That is more than have ever | 0:49:12 | 0:49:16 | |
done before and the health and
social care that is giving parity. | 0:49:16 | 0:49:25 | |
Does she agree that it is not just
the numbers of staff, at is how well | 0:49:25 | 0:49:31 | |
they are trained in the particularly
difficult circumstances of the | 0:49:31 | 0:49:36 | |
mental health unit. The pressures on
members of staff of particularly | 0:49:36 | 0:49:43 | |
acute in such an environment and so
clause five of the bill which | 0:49:43 | 0:49:46 | |
requires training and appropriate
use of force must be a positive | 0:49:46 | 0:49:51 | |
training for members of staff. She
is absolutely right, I don't think | 0:49:51 | 0:50:01 | |
anybody suggesting that police
officers are actively seeking to | 0:50:01 | 0:50:04 | |
treat mental health patients and
incorrect fashion, it is the need | 0:50:04 | 0:50:08 | |
for training so they understand the
correct way to behave. I do not | 0:50:08 | 0:50:16 | |
think it is simply about now, the
figures have increased in recent | 0:50:16 | 0:50:24 | |
years but it is the years of cuts
before but have had an impact on | 0:50:24 | 0:50:31 | |
staffing levels, we have seen a 20%
drop in the number of doctors and | 0:50:31 | 0:50:35 | |
nurses on the payroll in your last
five years. You can train a fewer | 0:50:35 | 0:50:40 | |
number of nurses and doctors and
restraint techniques but actually if | 0:50:40 | 0:50:44 | |
you are thereafter, the more than as
that they will need to restrain and | 0:50:44 | 0:50:49 | |
we cannot get away from that. I am
not sure I entirely agree with him. | 0:50:49 | 0:50:59 | |
Of course there have been historic
problems with funding of mental | 0:50:59 | 0:51:03 | |
health and I hope that members
opposite would recognise as we | 0:51:03 | 0:51:07 | |
recognise on the side, going over
the decades that has not been enough | 0:51:07 | 0:51:10 | |
funding going into mental health but
of the question of the NHS, actually | 0:51:10 | 0:51:15 | |
this Government despite as we all
know inheriting an appalling fiscal | 0:51:15 | 0:51:18 | |
situation whereby we were
spending... The largest budget | 0:51:18 | 0:51:29 | |
deficit in peacetime history, we a
Government took a decision to | 0:51:29 | 0:51:34 | |
prioritise health and health
spending has risen every year under | 0:51:34 | 0:51:36 | |
this Government and we are committed
to implement in Simon Stephens' | 0:51:36 | 0:51:43 | |
recommendation he was a Labour
special adviser to advise the | 0:51:43 | 0:51:48 | |
Government of £8 billion of
additional funding. I am very | 0:51:48 | 0:51:51 | |
pleased we are able to do that and I
would be delighted to give way. When | 0:51:51 | 0:51:59 | |
public services are stretched, under
resourced with the rising demands, | 0:51:59 | 0:52:04 | |
then it is more important than ever
that we have a quick process. Public | 0:52:04 | 0:52:12 | |
services do an exemplary job and
this Bill is not about criticising | 0:52:12 | 0:52:16 | |
them, it is about having the
regulated transparent process we can | 0:52:16 | 0:52:21 | |
minimise the harm to both the staff
and those that care for staff. I | 0:52:21 | 0:52:26 | |
have been contacted by many of my
constituents on this matter and | 0:52:26 | 0:52:29 | |
there is widespread public concern.
With the member agree that we do not | 0:52:29 | 0:52:34 | |
want to get this down to another
debate on another issue, let's stick | 0:52:34 | 0:52:38 | |
to what we're hear about today
please. I am grateful, can I gently | 0:52:38 | 0:52:46 | |
point out that interventions must be
brief. I recognise the 670 and | 0:52:46 | 0:52:50 | |
seriousness of what she said that it
is huge pressure on time in respect | 0:52:50 | 0:52:55 | |
of this Bill and what might fall so
a certain self-denying Ordinance I | 0:52:55 | 0:52:59 | |
think is needed. I thank for the
intervention and I know that she | 0:52:59 | 0:53:05 | |
liked greatly values the work of our
public sector workers. With respect, | 0:53:05 | 0:53:12 | |
I was seeking to respond to other
interventions made by members | 0:53:12 | 0:53:15 | |
opposite and members opposite would
seek to defend from making political | 0:53:15 | 0:53:20 | |
interventions that nature I will
happily refrain from rebutting them. | 0:53:20 | 0:53:27 | |
I think the root of this can
actually be traced back to my own | 0:53:27 | 0:53:35 | |
constituency which I proudly
represent and was born and grew up | 0:53:35 | 0:53:39 | |
in. I remember from my childhood the
way that mental health was treated. | 0:53:39 | 0:53:43 | |
We are on the edge of London and
London has historically been | 0:53:43 | 0:53:49 | |
surrounded by very large mental
health institutions. Just my own | 0:53:49 | 0:53:55 | |
constituency we had facilities such
as a very large hospital, and a | 0:53:55 | 0:54:05 | |
couple of areas and there were
positive ethos of these institutions | 0:54:05 | 0:54:09 | |
and I am fortunate to represent many
mental health nurses who still live | 0:54:09 | 0:54:14 | |
in the constituency, what else is
magicians, there was certainly a | 0:54:14 | 0:54:21 | |
positive ethos of rehabilitation for
people providing a very safe and | 0:54:21 | 0:54:27 | |
come space for them but the flip
side of that as there was a tendency | 0:54:27 | 0:54:31 | |
to good people in this magicians,
shut them away and never think about | 0:54:31 | 0:54:34 | |
problem again. -- these
institutions. We have sought to | 0:54:34 | 0:54:42 | |
change that approach will be
mainstream mental-health problems, | 0:54:42 | 0:54:46 | |
certainly in my own constituency...
I think it is important to | 0:54:46 | 0:54:57 | |
acknowledge that there are still far
too many young people with autism | 0:54:57 | 0:55:02 | |
and learning disability living for
the long-term and hospitals in this | 0:55:02 | 0:55:05 | |
country. That is a problem and that
is about the resources available for | 0:55:05 | 0:55:11 | |
their care but also how those
resources are spent. I think we need | 0:55:11 | 0:55:17 | |
a shift towards properly resourced
community settings for people with | 0:55:17 | 0:55:22 | |
autism and learning disabilities who
should not be in hospital for the | 0:55:22 | 0:55:25 | |
long-term. She makes a very
important point, the closer to the | 0:55:25 | 0:55:33 | |
community treatment can be given,
the better the treatment because if | 0:55:33 | 0:55:40 | |
constituents are having to travel
long journeys particularly with | 0:55:40 | 0:55:44 | |
younger children to access mental
health care facilities, that adds to | 0:55:44 | 0:55:48 | |
the destruction in their lives and I
think with all of this there is a | 0:55:48 | 0:55:52 | |
journey that is happening and I am
glad that the Government is | 0:55:52 | 0:55:56 | |
addressing the need for this
journey. I think the experience many | 0:55:56 | 0:56:01 | |
of us now have is that mental health
is delivered at the primary care | 0:56:01 | 0:56:05 | |
level and certainly I know from my
experience speaking to GPs MIO | 0:56:05 | 0:56:12 | |
constituency they are now at the
front line of this process. | 0:56:12 | 0:56:20 | |
So, what is the answer now? The
first thing to do is ensure that we | 0:56:21 | 0:56:25 | |
have that parity of treatment
between mental and physical health. | 0:56:25 | 0:56:29 | |
Too often, it has been the case that
a broken arm or a limb is taken as a | 0:56:29 | 0:56:34 | |
serious injury, you are patched up
and treated properly, nobody doubts | 0:56:34 | 0:56:40 | |
that you have an injury. For too
long, it has been the case that if | 0:56:40 | 0:56:43 | |
people have a mental health
condition, it is not immediately | 0:56:43 | 0:56:48 | |
treated with the same seriousness.
There is a sense that the person | 0:56:48 | 0:56:52 | |
concerned as to prove that they have
a problem in the first place. I will | 0:56:52 | 0:56:58 | |
give way. I am grateful. He is
making a really important point | 0:56:58 | 0:57:00 | |
here. Would he also agreed, however,
that around the need for parity of | 0:57:00 | 0:57:07 | |
esteem, there is also a need for
greater understanding of what it | 0:57:07 | 0:57:10 | |
really means to live with mental
health illness? That bills like this | 0:57:10 | 0:57:17 | |
are also important in raising
awareness of this particular what | 0:57:17 | 0:57:22 | |
can be very sensitive issue. I think
my honourable friend -- thank my | 0:57:22 | 0:57:28 | |
honourable friend for her
intervention. It is not just | 0:57:28 | 0:57:32 | |
understanding the experience of the
person suffering from mental health, | 0:57:32 | 0:57:35 | |
it is also the knock-on effect of
the entire family. One thing that is | 0:57:35 | 0:57:41 | |
frequently raised by my constituents
is that when there is one child any | 0:57:41 | 0:57:46 | |
family with mental health issues is
how that then impact on the other | 0:57:46 | 0:57:50 | |
siblings and making sure that they
do not feel neglected and | 0:57:50 | 0:57:54 | |
disadvantaged as one sibling
necessarily gets more attention in | 0:57:54 | 0:57:58 | |
that process. Not only do we need to
change cultural attitudes towards | 0:57:58 | 0:58:06 | |
mental health, we also need to look
at the legislative framework that | 0:58:06 | 0:58:08 | |
underpins it. I think most of us
will agree that the 1983 was the | 0:58:08 | 0:58:17 | |
last time we had a serious
large-scale piece of legislation on. | 0:58:17 | 0:58:22 | |
That was when the old model I was
discussing earlier was the prevalent | 0:58:22 | 0:58:25 | |
model. There is a pressing need for
a larger piece of legislation which | 0:58:25 | 0:58:32 | |
can build upon the measures in the
piece of legislation and ensure that | 0:58:32 | 0:58:36 | |
we take a more comprehensive look at
that. I give way. I thank him and | 0:58:36 | 0:58:43 | |
I'm enjoying listening to his
speech. One of the big areas that we | 0:58:43 | 0:58:46 | |
need to review is the use of police
cells. Whilst we have seen some | 0:58:46 | 0:58:50 | |
welcome declines in the use of those
lovely place of safety, it really is | 0:58:50 | 0:58:54 | |
unacceptable somebody ends up in a
police cell because they have been | 0:58:54 | 0:58:58 | |
unwell. Yes, my honourable friend
makes a very important point. This | 0:58:58 | 0:59:06 | |
is something again that we are
waking up to. My right honourable | 0:59:06 | 0:59:12 | |
friend the Prime Minister as Home
Secretary took great strides to | 0:59:12 | 0:59:17 | |
change the approach the police take
so that there is not this automatic | 0:59:17 | 0:59:20 | |
printing of people into cells.
Again, if somebody is already | 0:59:20 | 0:59:26 | |
suffering from a mental health
condition, the worst possible thing | 0:59:26 | 0:59:29 | |
you can do is to have a night in the
cells, which of course all of us | 0:59:29 | 0:59:35 | |
have seen those conditions. I will
briefly but unconscious of time. | 0:59:35 | 0:59:41 | |
Years being extremely generous but
would he also agreed that the mental | 0:59:41 | 0:59:47 | |
health impact on criminal suspects,
we have strict time limits around | 0:59:47 | 0:59:52 | |
detention without warranty is not
theme around mental health and that | 0:59:52 | 0:59:54 | |
is something to be looked at future?
My honourable friend makes them | 0:59:54 | 1:00:05 | |
pointed intervention. It comes back
to the wider question of how we | 1:00:05 | 1:00:11 | |
achieve parity. -- makes an
important intervention. Parity is | 1:00:11 | 1:00:14 | |
not just about funding and the GP
facility, it is also about all of | 1:00:14 | 1:00:20 | |
these other forms, for want of a
better term micro-discriminations, | 1:00:20 | 1:00:27 | |
and I very much hope... I will give
way. I thank him for giving way. I | 1:00:27 | 1:00:33 | |
agree that parity is not achieved
necessarily through just funding, | 1:00:33 | 1:00:38 | |
but would he... What would he say to
the data collected by my honourable | 1:00:38 | 1:00:46 | |
friend the Member for Liverpool
weather tree, who through Freedom of | 1:00:46 | 1:00:49 | |
Information was able to demonstrate
that half of all CCGs in the country | 1:00:49 | 1:00:53 | |
are looking to reduce the amount of
money they are spending on mental | 1:00:53 | 1:00:57 | |
health provision in their
communities so that they can put | 1:00:57 | 1:01:00 | |
more money into the acute pressures
of their communities, which are | 1:01:00 | 1:01:04 | |
struggling because of other funding
arrangements? I thank the honourable | 1:01:04 | 1:01:11 | |
gentleman. This goes back to the
earlier point I was making. The | 1:01:11 | 1:01:15 | |
funding is there. We are increasing
funding for the NHS and its CCGs | 1:01:15 | 1:01:19 | |
should not be seeking to cut mental
health services in order to cross | 1:01:19 | 1:01:25 | |
subsidise into acute services and
certainly that is not the case, I | 1:01:25 | 1:01:29 | |
know, in my own CCG. But I think
that all of these points that ladies | 1:01:29 | 1:01:36 | |
and gentlemen on both sides of the
House have raised are very important | 1:01:36 | 1:01:39 | |
and I very much hope that in the
review of mental health that the | 1:01:39 | 1:01:44 | |
government announced in the Queen's
speech, all of these considerations | 1:01:44 | 1:01:47 | |
will be into account. It really
encompasses every area of government | 1:01:47 | 1:01:54 | |
activity, and I think a holistic
approach is very important. The | 1:01:54 | 1:02:00 | |
final point I would like, because I
am conscious of taking a little but | 1:02:00 | 1:02:07 | |
too much time... Not at all! Is
coordination. I know that for many | 1:02:07 | 1:02:15 | |
of my constituents, particularly and
I think this will often be the case | 1:02:15 | 1:02:18 | |
if sufferers from mental health find
themselves in contact with the | 1:02:18 | 1:02:22 | |
police, it is more severe mental
health episodes that often lead to | 1:02:22 | 1:02:26 | |
contact with the police. There is
sometimes a frustration as to which | 1:02:26 | 1:02:31 | |
agency is going to take
responsibility. If the police | 1:02:31 | 1:02:34 | |
recognise that there is a problem
with mental health, they will | 1:02:34 | 1:02:38 | |
frequently get in contact with
mental health services, the NHS, who | 1:02:38 | 1:02:43 | |
may then get in contact with mental
health services at the local | 1:02:43 | 1:02:48 | |
council, and there is a feeling with
the patients and their family that | 1:02:48 | 1:02:54 | |
they are being pushed from pillar to
post with no individual seeking to | 1:02:54 | 1:03:01 | |
take responsibility. So, I think it
is very important, and again coming | 1:03:01 | 1:03:05 | |
back to the provisions in this bill
and religion to the collection of | 1:03:05 | 1:03:09 | |
data, not only is the data
collected, the data also needs to be | 1:03:09 | 1:03:13 | |
shared effectively between
institutions. I also hope when it | 1:03:13 | 1:03:18 | |
comes to the review and what I hope
will then lead to fresh legislation | 1:03:18 | 1:03:21 | |
in this area, we look at a way of
providing some sort of coordination | 1:03:21 | 1:03:25 | |
so that there is somebody who can
effectively be a champion for the | 1:03:25 | 1:03:31 | |
person with mental health conditions
so that they feel less person can | 1:03:31 | 1:03:35 | |
bring together the experiences of
all the different institutions, and | 1:03:35 | 1:03:38 | |
I think at a time when families of
individual steel under so much | 1:03:38 | 1:03:43 | |
pressure, if they can feel there is
one person to whom they can relate, | 1:03:43 | 1:03:47 | |
rather than having to negotiate this
track of different bodies, I think | 1:03:47 | 1:03:51 | |
that could provide a much better
outcome for people. So, in | 1:03:51 | 1:03:56 | |
conclusion, once again I would like
to pay tribute to the honourable | 1:03:56 | 1:04:00 | |
member, the Member for Croydon
North, for bringing this important | 1:04:00 | 1:04:04 | |
issue to this House. I very much
hope that this piece of legislation | 1:04:04 | 1:04:09 | |
will complete its stages and make
its way onto the statute book but | 1:04:09 | 1:04:12 | |
also hope that it will be the
beginning of a wider process that | 1:04:12 | 1:04:16 | |
then can feed into fresh legislation
that can look at all the different | 1:04:16 | 1:04:20 | |
areas where we needed to ensure
there is genuine parity between | 1:04:20 | 1:04:25 | |
mental and physical health, which I
hope all honourable members will | 1:04:25 | 1:04:29 | |
agree is the ultimate goal. It is a
pleasure to follow my colleague and | 1:04:29 | 1:04:39 | |
friend the Member for parts near and
I would like to congratulate also | 1:04:39 | 1:04:42 | |
the honourable member for Croydon
North Ralls the work that he has | 1:04:42 | 1:04:45 | |
done in bringing this to the floor
of the House. As my honourable | 1:04:45 | 1:04:50 | |
friend said, it is an extraordinary
feat, I have only been in the House | 1:04:50 | 1:04:54 | |
for two years but to actually
achieve of beating the systems of | 1:04:54 | 1:04:59 | |
the Parliamentary process and
bringing together so many voices to | 1:04:59 | 1:05:03 | |
ensure that a really important gap
in our legislative system can be | 1:05:03 | 1:05:06 | |
changed is a really impressive
effort. I am delighted to write and | 1:05:06 | 1:05:10 | |
speak in support of his bill. The
way we view | 1:05:10 | 1:05:16 | |
speak in support of his bill. The
way we view, diagnose and treatment | 1:05:16 | 1:05:18 | |
of a changed dramatically over the
last two years and I am delighted | 1:05:18 | 1:05:21 | |
that our government is taking the
lead on this matter now but we still | 1:05:21 | 1:05:24 | |
have a very long way to go. A
combination of excellent work by | 1:05:24 | 1:05:28 | |
health professionals, the Royal
colleges, so many other excellent | 1:05:28 | 1:05:34 | |
charities, many parliamentarians and
citizens right across our society, | 1:05:34 | 1:05:39 | |
their voices are starting to ensure
that mental health is, at last, | 1:05:39 | 1:05:42 | |
right up on the job of government
and society's priorities. Bearing in | 1:05:42 | 1:05:46 | |
mind just how much the fixture has
changed over recent years, it | 1:05:46 | 1:05:51 | |
somehow seems incomprehensible that
the Mental Health Act has remained | 1:05:51 | 1:05:54 | |
unchanged since its publication in
1983, which was when I started | 1:05:54 | 1:05:58 | |
secondary school, and I am
definitely not one of the younger | 1:05:58 | 1:06:01 | |
members in the House any more! To
think how policy has changed even | 1:06:01 | 1:06:07 | |
over the last decade remains of
stars to a piece of legislation set | 1:06:07 | 1:06:11 | |
up three decades ago can no longer
be anywhere near fit for purpose. | 1:06:11 | 1:06:16 | |
That, in itself, in some ways is a
good thing, that we have moved so | 1:06:16 | 1:06:20 | |
far in understanding what mental
health means. In fact, what mental | 1:06:20 | 1:06:24 | |
ill-health means. I often find it a
strange use of language to talk | 1:06:24 | 1:06:29 | |
about mental health will remain
somebody is unwell, because it is a | 1:06:29 | 1:06:35 | |
moment in otherwise healthy people's
lives when they are unwell. It is an | 1:06:35 | 1:06:45 | |
invisible part of our health and
ill-health through our fortunately | 1:06:45 | 1:06:48 | |
very long waits for most of us. It
is good news that the review is | 1:06:48 | 1:06:53 | |
ongoing and I look forward to
continuing to work with government | 1:06:53 | 1:06:56 | |
and ministers to ensure that we did
it effective reform across the | 1:06:56 | 1:06:58 | |
board. This will allow us to address
the use of force in mental health | 1:06:58 | 1:07:02 | |
unit and it is something I have
added substantial amount of | 1:07:02 | 1:07:07 | |
correspondence about from concerned
constituents and more widely family | 1:07:07 | 1:07:10 | |
and friends who will often they did
not want to bother me about this, | 1:07:10 | 1:07:16 | |
but in this instance it is something
that really bothers people and they | 1:07:16 | 1:07:19 | |
have actually dropped me a line to
highlight that they want me to speak | 1:07:19 | 1:07:23 | |
out on this as well. Constituents
particularly... Yes, of course. Can | 1:07:23 | 1:07:31 | |
I congratulate my honourable friend
for bringing forward this bill? He | 1:07:31 | 1:07:34 | |
has done a very important thing for
the country and also for Croydon. | 1:07:34 | 1:07:47 | |
Seni died in a hospital on the
border of my constituency and my | 1:07:50 | 1:07:55 | |
heart goes out to his family. I had
a constituent who come to me this | 1:07:55 | 1:07:58 | |
week who had had a bipolar incident,
had ended up in a prison cell and | 1:07:58 | 1:08:03 | |
has been assaulted. He said it is
often the first port of call, | 1:08:03 | 1:08:08 | |
especially for those who for one
reason or another end up on the | 1:08:08 | 1:08:11 | |
streets. He went to a solicitor to
ask if he should take action on was | 1:08:11 | 1:08:15 | |
advised not to. Does the honourable
lady agree with me that this bill | 1:08:15 | 1:08:20 | |
will change practice but also
hopefully encourage people, when | 1:08:20 | 1:08:24 | |
things do go wrong, to speak out and
take action and feel that they will | 1:08:24 | 1:08:27 | |
get support in doing so? I thank her
for her intervention and agree | 1:08:27 | 1:08:34 | |
absolutely. I am very pleased that
the numbers of those being held in | 1:08:34 | 1:08:39 | |
police cells has come down
dramatically in the last few years | 1:08:39 | 1:08:46 | |
but if people feel they are
suffering injustice they should | 1:08:46 | 1:08:51 | |
always take the police, in this
instance of that is where the | 1:08:51 | 1:08:56 | |
problem lay, to find another outlet
to be addressed. Every citizen in | 1:08:56 | 1:09:05 | |
our country should always feel able
to stand up and say this was wrong | 1:09:05 | 1:09:12 | |
and I am seeking to address that. I
would encourage her to encourage | 1:09:12 | 1:09:22 | |
constituents. Many people have
written to me with deep concerns | 1:09:22 | 1:09:26 | |
about the effect that use of force
me to vote on their own child, and | 1:09:26 | 1:09:30 | |
in some absolutely harrowing cases,
the invite, the effect it has had. | 1:09:30 | 1:09:35 | |
One detail how the use of force had
a lasting effect on the held not | 1:09:35 | 1:09:40 | |
only of the family member but of
course on the whole family, which | 1:09:40 | 1:09:44 | |
created years and years of trauma
and ongoing illness as a result of | 1:09:44 | 1:09:49 | |
unreasonable restraint. The use of
excessive force that has led to this | 1:09:49 | 1:09:53 | |
sort of long-term damage and, as in
the tragic case in Croydon North, a | 1:09:53 | 1:10:01 | |
death is an absolute tragedy and we
can never allow such abuses to take | 1:10:01 | 1:10:05 | |
place in our civilised society. It
is good to see the cases of such | 1:10:05 | 1:10:09 | |
terrible treatment are and the
numbers coming down, but if we ever | 1:10:09 | 1:10:14 | |
treat those who desperately need our
support when in a state of mental | 1:10:14 | 1:10:19 | |
ill-health and distress with force
and brutality, it is time for those | 1:10:19 | 1:10:22 | |
voices to be heard and to take
action for change. These abuses | 1:10:22 | 1:10:26 | |
cannot go unanswered or be tolerated
any longer. The movement towards | 1:10:26 | 1:10:31 | |
understanding mental ill-health
really is progressing and it is | 1:10:31 | 1:10:34 | |
absolutely right that the directions
in this bill will help to change | 1:10:34 | 1:10:37 | |
that practice. With this in mind, I
would like to speak on two specific | 1:10:37 | 1:10:41 | |
issues that are extremely close to
my heart. They are in relation to | 1:10:41 | 1:10:47 | |
autism in young people. It seems to
me that cross governmental | 1:10:47 | 1:10:50 | |
cooperation has been lacking in the
past on issues of mental health. If | 1:10:50 | 1:10:54 | |
we are to make a real impact in this
issue and change the cultural norms, | 1:10:54 | 1:11:00 | |
we need to make sure the Department
for health, Home Office, justice and | 1:11:00 | 1:11:04 | |
NHS England have proper, closer
working practices to deliver the | 1:11:04 | 1:11:09 | |
reforms that are so necessary and I
hope the Minister will undertake to | 1:11:09 | 1:11:11 | |
confirm that with the House later
today. This bill could make a real | 1:11:11 | 1:11:15 | |
difference in tackling the
inappropriate use of force is so | 1:11:15 | 1:11:18 | |
often used against patients, many of
whom are on the autism spectrum. A | 1:11:18 | 1:11:24 | |
recent Freedom of Information
request discovered there are 66,681 | 1:11:24 | 1:11:33 | |
recorded instances of restraint in
England in 2015, which was an | 1:11:33 | 1:11:35 | |
increase on the year before. In
cases where there is the use of | 1:11:35 | 1:11:38 | |
physical, mechanical or based on
restraint, this can undermine the | 1:11:38 | 1:11:42 | |
individual's recovery, increasing
their risk of injury and long-term | 1:11:42 | 1:11:45 | |
harm. We should be charged with
protecting these people to get well | 1:11:45 | 1:11:50 | |
again. I would hope that many in the
South have read the National | 1:11:50 | 1:11:55 | |
Autistic Society's recent report on
transforming care. | 1:11:55 | 1:12:07 | |
It followed what happens to people
admitted to a mental health | 1:12:07 | 1:12:13 | |
hospital. One story recounted in the
report, spoke of a boy who was | 1:12:13 | 1:12:22 | |
completely failed, a very vulnerable
young man, who suffered a sequence | 1:12:22 | 1:12:29 | |
of dramatic experiences, which will
adversely affect four years. As the | 1:12:29 | 1:12:34 | |
mother of an autistic child, he's
just turned 18, so he's an adult, | 1:12:34 | 1:12:40 | |
and other family members, now
diagnosed, I am constantly concerned | 1:12:40 | 1:12:45 | |
that the invisibility of autism in
so many sufferers means at their | 1:12:45 | 1:12:50 | |
mental health or ill-health is
completely failed to be understood | 1:12:50 | 1:12:55 | |
or indeed identified and those
crisis situations. I used to have to | 1:12:55 | 1:13:00 | |
explain to teachers in my son's
schools, who didn't understand how | 1:13:00 | 1:13:04 | |
his Asperger's affected him. If he
had a broken leg, with the ask them | 1:13:04 | 1:13:10 | |
to run up the stairs and join in the
football match? They would look | 1:13:10 | 1:13:14 | |
bemused, and I would say, he is the
state of deep stress and trauma at | 1:13:14 | 1:13:18 | |
this point. You would expecting him
to sit quietly in the classroom and | 1:13:18 | 1:13:24 | |
pay attention as if he was in a
state of wellness. This is not | 1:13:24 | 1:13:27 | |
possible. Teachers who committed a
huge amount of time to help to be in | 1:13:27 | 1:13:34 | |
the mainstream system, to understand
what that meant, that invisibility, | 1:13:34 | 1:13:39 | |
not only of autism, but also of
mental ill health until a crisis | 1:13:39 | 1:13:43 | |
hit, means that those in society you
cannot see it, and that unless we | 1:13:43 | 1:13:49 | |
are tuned to the individual sufferer
ordeal wider identification of what | 1:13:49 | 1:13:53 | |
that means, we cannot help. So it is
so important that the frameworks and | 1:13:53 | 1:13:58 | |
that those charged with looking
after those who may be in need is | 1:13:58 | 1:14:03 | |
absolutely rigorous. We cannot
expect those who are suffering ill | 1:14:03 | 1:14:08 | |
health, as we would not ask the boy
with a broken leg to play in a | 1:14:08 | 1:14:12 | |
football match, we must do the same
with those when they are in a mental | 1:14:12 | 1:14:15 | |
health crisis. But what can we say
when we hear of these harrowing | 1:14:15 | 1:14:21 | |
stories? To imagine the tragedy is
that those families have to go | 1:14:21 | 1:14:29 | |
through. The instinct can no longer
be to allow things to go on. They do | 1:14:29 | 1:14:34 | |
need improvement. We cannot just
tweak them here and there, we cannot | 1:14:34 | 1:14:38 | |
ignore issues that need urgent
attention and reform. I am really | 1:14:38 | 1:14:42 | |
glad the government recognises this
and is supporting this Bill. These | 1:14:42 | 1:14:50 | |
isolated cases are sadly too great
in terms of autistic young people, | 1:14:50 | 1:14:56 | |
and NHS digital figures show that is
still an increase in people being | 1:14:56 | 1:15:03 | |
unnecessarily restrained, because
they cannot express their crises, in | 1:15:03 | 1:15:09 | |
a way that there are typical people
would often can. So we cannot go on | 1:15:09 | 1:15:15 | |
with the restraints that severely
endanger those most vulnerable, who | 1:15:15 | 1:15:18 | |
need considered it, appropriate and
construct of treatment programmes, | 1:15:18 | 1:15:22 | |
which meet the autistic individual's
needs. Ways to reform are included | 1:15:22 | 1:15:29 | |
in this Bill and there are a number
of concepts, which are constituents | 1:15:29 | 1:15:34 | |
expect of us, of governments, and of
our public services right through | 1:15:34 | 1:15:39 | |
the systems. I would like to cover a
couple of them. Firstly, the | 1:15:39 | 1:15:45 | |
question of transparency, that every
time any restraining force in a | 1:15:45 | 1:15:49 | |
mental health unit will be used, it
will be recorded and fully detailed. | 1:15:49 | 1:15:54 | |
To know, if you are well, that if
you were to be in a state of mental | 1:15:54 | 1:15:58 | |
ill-health, that would be recorded,
because often, you're not able to | 1:15:58 | 1:16:02 | |
think clearly. Again, if you have a
broken leg or arm, your mental | 1:16:02 | 1:16:08 | |
capacities are functioning fine, you
will remember if they put the cast | 1:16:08 | 1:16:11 | |
on the wrong arm. You would notice
that. But if you're in a state of | 1:16:11 | 1:16:16 | |
deep mental ill-health, you are not
always able to see the world clearly | 1:16:16 | 1:16:20 | |
at that point. So to a record would
make a big difference to empower the | 1:16:20 | 1:16:32 | |
sufferers to know they're being
properly looked after. Secondly, in | 1:16:32 | 1:16:34 | |
terms of accountability, in order
major institutions, we need | 1:16:34 | 1:16:35 | |
accountability in everything that is
done. It is no mean feat in | 1:16:35 | 1:16:38 | |
practice, but every institution will
have to have a named individual | 1:16:38 | 1:16:42 | |
responsible in place, on the use of
force and implementation. Perhaps to | 1:16:42 | 1:16:52 | |
have a named person who those in
distress can go to in the safety and | 1:16:52 | 1:16:56 | |
knowledge that they will be
supported, understood and given a | 1:16:56 | 1:16:59 | |
fair hearing, is something that is
so important. Would she accept that | 1:16:59 | 1:17:09 | |
named individual must be able to
prove that they have been trained in | 1:17:09 | 1:17:15 | |
the responsible way in which they
handle these incidents? And more | 1:17:15 | 1:17:19 | |
particularly that they are trained
again on a regular basis? Because | 1:17:19 | 1:17:23 | |
that is one of the weaknesses of
these units, a lack of training and | 1:17:23 | 1:17:27 | |
a lack of updating people's
training. I agree absolutely, that | 1:17:27 | 1:17:34 | |
getting that training right in the
first place, understanding | 1:17:34 | 1:17:38 | |
unconscious bias, but I think we
invariably suffer from in general | 1:17:38 | 1:17:42 | |
life, but within that environment,
in such a complex field, and | 1:17:42 | 1:17:48 | |
ensuring that de-escalation
techniques are learned and | 1:17:48 | 1:17:51 | |
constantly reiterated, so that those
extraordinary people who work in | 1:17:51 | 1:17:54 | |
this sector are supported and
constantly reminded and given the | 1:17:54 | 1:17:58 | |
right tools to make sure that they
can look after our family members | 1:17:58 | 1:18:02 | |
and constituents when they are in
these crises. One of the things that | 1:18:02 | 1:18:10 | |
is noticeable than the evidence
about this is a huge variation in | 1:18:10 | 1:18:14 | |
the use of restraints, and that
there are some other settings with | 1:18:14 | 1:18:18 | |
similar groups of patients who are
using far more restrained than | 1:18:18 | 1:18:21 | |
others. Getting to the bottom of
that and trying to improve the | 1:18:21 | 1:18:26 | |
standards in all settings is surely
part of the key of solving this | 1:18:26 | 1:18:29 | |
problem. I think that's absolutely
right. So often, best practice, | 1:18:29 | 1:18:37 | |
those who have had perhaps through
the circumstances of patients, have | 1:18:37 | 1:18:42 | |
been able to develop techniques that
are more sophisticated, they haven't | 1:18:42 | 1:18:47 | |
de-escalation programmes, that needs
to be shared. But as the great | 1:18:47 | 1:18:52 | |
challenge. So often in education and
other public services, to find an | 1:18:52 | 1:18:56 | |
effective way to share those best
practices, so that those who are | 1:18:56 | 1:19:01 | |
doing their best, but not
necessarily with the most effective | 1:19:01 | 1:19:04 | |
tools, to help patients to recover
and restore the stability. These | 1:19:04 | 1:19:13 | |
important areas of policy,
transparency and accountability, | 1:19:13 | 1:19:17 | |
will protect patients, promote
dignity and respect. I think that's | 1:19:17 | 1:19:21 | |
something that everyone who passes
through mental health system should | 1:19:21 | 1:19:24 | |
receive, dignity in their care and
respect for them as an individual in | 1:19:24 | 1:19:30 | |
our society. I had a lovely chat
with the gentleman on the street | 1:19:30 | 1:19:32 | |
last night, not far from here, who
had a notice, as he was asking for | 1:19:32 | 1:19:39 | |
money, he needed £35 when his bed
and it is, it was going to be his | 1:19:39 | 1:19:43 | |
night of luxury. His sign said, this
can happen to everyone. That makes | 1:19:43 | 1:19:49 | |
me stop and chat. He was a man whose
life story was just unfortunate, as | 1:19:49 | 1:19:54 | |
series of unfortunate events and
then he was on the streets. Mental | 1:19:54 | 1:19:59 | |
ill-health and strike everyone. To
suggest that anyone is not entitled | 1:19:59 | 1:20:04 | |
to that dignity would be wrong. I
think she raises a very important | 1:20:04 | 1:20:09 | |
point. We must be careful not to
judge people in that situation. The | 1:20:09 | 1:20:13 | |
result was a temptation to think
that there could be other reasons | 1:20:13 | 1:20:16 | |
for it. People are often the victims
of child abuse and so on. There | 1:20:16 | 1:20:24 | |
still needs to be a change in
society's attitudes. You look at the | 1:20:24 | 1:20:29 | |
appalling cases of people being
abused by other embers of the | 1:20:29 | 1:20:32 | |
public. I think that's exactly
right. As we go forward, we need to | 1:20:32 | 1:20:39 | |
set these new markers to make sure
it is a cultural change, it is that | 1:20:39 | 1:20:45 | |
understanding that mental ill-health
as part of our life experience, but | 1:20:45 | 1:20:48 | |
most of us may experience it in one
form or another, but for those who | 1:20:48 | 1:20:54 | |
are the most vulnerable, we need to
make sure the practices are the best | 1:20:54 | 1:20:58 | |
they can be, so that dignity and
respect is afforded to every single | 1:20:58 | 1:21:01 | |
person who needs that support.
Transparency will also allow health | 1:21:01 | 1:21:08 | |
professionals to manage the risk, to
protect not only the patient, but | 1:21:08 | 1:21:13 | |
also our public servants, and it
protects them from false | 1:21:13 | 1:21:17 | |
allegations, as well as having that
evidence, should things go wrong. | 1:21:17 | 1:21:21 | |
The question of the body worn Kamala
is so important. In HMP | 1:21:21 | 1:21:27 | |
Northumberland, the prison in my
constituency, we were one of the | 1:21:27 | 1:21:30 | |
trial prisoners to try this out.
It's been running for two years, and | 1:21:30 | 1:21:35 | |
there has been a dramatic drop, not
only in the cases of reporting of | 1:21:35 | 1:21:42 | |
argy-bargy between prison officers
and enemies, but in terms of their | 1:21:42 | 1:21:46 | |
behaviour, because inmates who might
have decided to have a go, don't | 1:21:46 | 1:21:50 | |
bother any more, because it will be
filmed. And the relationship has | 1:21:50 | 1:21:55 | |
improved so much as a result. It is
like a good teacher in a classroom, | 1:21:55 | 1:22:03 | |
who knows that if you give a good
framework, everyone works in a more | 1:22:03 | 1:22:09 | |
considered and conservatory fashion.
I am a huge supporter of body worn | 1:22:09 | 1:22:15 | |
Kamala is on police officers and
prison officers, because I believe | 1:22:15 | 1:22:19 | |
it protects the officers and also
members of the public. Does she | 1:22:19 | 1:22:22 | |
agree that are just as in domestic
violence cases, body worn Kamala 's | 1:22:22 | 1:22:29 | |
will help those victims who perhaps
don't have the confidence cannot | 1:22:29 | 1:22:33 | |
raise the consequences of giving
evidence against that assailants, so | 1:22:33 | 1:22:36 | |
to the case might be in prisons. I
think that's right. It is so | 1:22:36 | 1:22:44 | |
interesting that so often, with our
social media world we live in, | 1:22:44 | 1:22:51 | |
anonymity allows our level of poor
behaviour. If that body worn Kamala | 1:22:51 | 1:22:57 | |
allows people to remember that
everything from good manners and | 1:22:57 | 1:23:00 | |
behaviour through to construct of
dialogue, rather than other forms of | 1:23:00 | 1:23:07 | |
drama, this must be a tool we should
be encouraging across-the-board. One | 1:23:07 | 1:23:12 | |
hopes behaviour can improve one you
remember how it is that these things | 1:23:12 | 1:23:16 | |
can be done more constructively and
with less pilot interventions. Would | 1:23:16 | 1:23:23 | |
she agree that one of the bonuses of
body worn footage is that, compared | 1:23:23 | 1:23:29 | |
to the current process, you don't
need a long investigation, it takes | 1:23:29 | 1:23:34 | |
an officer of duty, and the
uncertainty means, the certainty | 1:23:34 | 1:23:40 | |
means you can get to a quick read
resolution and allow the | 1:23:40 | 1:23:45 | |
organisation to move on. I think
that's exactly right. It's a | 1:23:45 | 1:23:50 | |
common-sense measure which actually
helps to have a dramatic impact on | 1:23:50 | 1:23:54 | |
the way our mental health units
work, for the well-being of staff | 1:23:54 | 1:23:58 | |
and those who are there to receive
treatment. One more important aspect | 1:23:58 | 1:24:04 | |
of this Bill is that justice for a
potential victim becomes possible. | 1:24:04 | 1:24:10 | |
For justice to be done, we need a
new and open approach to allow our | 1:24:10 | 1:24:15 | |
public services to learn from past
mistakes and make sure no family or | 1:24:15 | 1:24:19 | |
individual has to suffer the tragedy
of loss on injustices that has too | 1:24:19 | 1:24:24 | |
often been experienced by patients
and their families. I have had one | 1:24:24 | 1:24:27 | |
constituency case of a young girl,
who was put into restraint, not with | 1:24:27 | 1:24:34 | |
in even mental health unit, but
within a special school environment. | 1:24:34 | 1:24:39 | |
Through the city she suffered from,
she hit her head and lost her sight. | 1:24:39 | 1:24:43 | |
Truly tragic, and the family have
fought and fought to find a way to | 1:24:43 | 1:24:47 | |
get the dress and a better
educational framework for this child | 1:24:47 | 1:24:53 | |
to develop, having developed this
avoidable blindness. This great | 1:24:53 | 1:24:57 | |
challenge of ensuring we have a
system that is open and transparent, | 1:24:57 | 1:25:00 | |
so that families can be heard, and
they don't have to fight for years. | 1:25:00 | 1:25:05 | |
You just mentioned a case in a
special school. I would like to | 1:25:05 | 1:25:09 | |
raise in the house the concern about
restraint in special schools. | 1:25:09 | 1:25:14 | |
There's also a case in my
constituency that some autistic | 1:25:14 | 1:25:18 | |
boys, who went some -- through some
really concerning constraint which | 1:25:18 | 1:25:25 | |
lead to see these bruising when they
were very young. They've now been | 1:25:25 | 1:25:29 | |
taken out of that setting, but it is
something that needs to be looked | 1:25:29 | 1:25:33 | |
into. I would be happy to work with
her, perhaps something we need to | 1:25:33 | 1:25:40 | |
look at more widely, because again,
that's area where these special | 1:25:40 | 1:25:46 | |
schools have extraordinary staff who
work there to look after the | 1:25:46 | 1:25:50 | |
children, who have a breadth of
needs that are never the same two | 1:25:50 | 1:25:54 | |
days running. We need to make sure
they are empowered with the right | 1:25:54 | 1:25:57 | |
skills and techniques to support
these children, he can beat | 1:25:57 | 1:26:01 | |
fulfilling and full lives if we can
get them through the education | 1:26:01 | 1:26:04 | |
system. As I used to say to my son,
he hears it when I do this, but | 1:26:04 | 1:26:11 | |
tough, it's too late. The reality
is, being a child in a mainstream | 1:26:11 | 1:26:16 | |
education system, if he can make it
to adult it, you are free to be | 1:26:16 | 1:26:23 | |
whoever it is Godfrey did you to be
invented can flourish. | 1:26:23 | 1:26:30 | |
The challenge that we have is that
our public services, be there for | 1:26:30 | 1:26:33 | |
those who are suffering ill-health
or children in special needs | 1:26:33 | 1:26:36 | |
schools, is that we have a framework
that supports them, wrap them with | 1:26:36 | 1:26:40 | |
the skills and techniques needed to
help them get well but also to | 1:26:40 | 1:26:46 | |
ensure that they receive the dignity
that everybody would expect a family | 1:26:46 | 1:26:49 | |
member in hospital for any other
physical ailment would receive. In | 1:26:49 | 1:26:54 | |
conclusion, the proposals raised by
this bill are personally really | 1:26:54 | 1:26:59 | |
important to me and profoundly
important to so many other | 1:26:59 | 1:27:02 | |
constituents who have experienced
restraint and the family's lack of | 1:27:02 | 1:27:06 | |
voice in protecting children or
relatives in this situation is, or | 1:27:06 | 1:27:09 | |
indeed from being able to get any
form of justice or restitution for | 1:27:09 | 1:27:13 | |
the damage to their family members.
Legislation can ginger practices and | 1:27:13 | 1:27:18 | |
attitudes towards the care for those
who need it most, and I am delighted | 1:27:18 | 1:27:23 | |
that this bill is being brought
forward and I give it my | 1:27:23 | 1:27:27 | |
wholehearted support. Thank you,
Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like | 1:27:27 | 1:27:32 | |
to thank my honourable friend the
Member for Croydon North for | 1:27:32 | 1:27:35 | |
bringing this bill forward. He
certainly made a very powerful case | 1:27:35 | 1:27:39 | |
for the builders morning. Everything
we have heard has made it very clear | 1:27:39 | 1:27:42 | |
why this bill is necessary. I want
to congratulate honourable members | 1:27:42 | 1:27:47 | |
on both sides for the constructive
way they have contributed to this | 1:27:47 | 1:27:50 | |
debate so far and I believe there is
broad support for the measures the | 1:27:50 | 1:27:53 | |
bill. Whether our disagreements, I
hope they can be ironed out at the | 1:27:53 | 1:27:59 | |
committee stage. My honourable
friend spoke movingly about the case | 1:27:59 | 1:28:04 | |
of Olaseni Lewis, who tragically
died after being restrained based on | 1:28:04 | 1:28:09 | |
any mental health hospital, and we
have heard other examples today of | 1:28:09 | 1:28:14 | |
the issues that this bill hopes to
address. -- restrained face down. | 1:28:14 | 1:28:18 | |
Sadly, this case is not an isolated
incident. Restraint is still used | 1:28:18 | 1:28:23 | |
far too regularly, despite
guidelines that it is only used as a | 1:28:23 | 1:28:29 | |
last resort. Guidelines state that
the dangerous practice of faith | 1:28:29 | 1:28:33 | |
don't restraint should be phased
out, but unfortunately, it is still | 1:28:33 | 1:28:37 | |
used Whately. There is variation...
I am not going to give way. There | 1:28:37 | 1:28:44 | |
are other items of business we want
to get to. There is also an issue, | 1:28:44 | 1:28:52 | |
as members have violated,
unconscious bias. As we have heard, | 1:28:52 | 1:28:56 | |
young black men are statistically
more likely to be seen as having | 1:28:56 | 1:29:01 | |
psychosis or schizophrenia and are
at risk of inappropriate risk of | 1:29:01 | 1:29:05 | |
force, as are women. No, I am afraid
that we have got other members who | 1:29:05 | 1:29:12 | |
wish to speak. Figures from the
Metropolitan Police show that in | 1:29:12 | 1:29:14 | |
London 36% of the 12,605 users of
force between April and June | 1:29:14 | 1:29:19 | |
involved black people, despite their
accounting just 12% of London's | 1:29:19 | 1:29:23 | |
population. Research has shown that
women, who make up 46% of patients, | 1:29:23 | 1:29:28 | |
are over half of all incidents of
face-down restraint. Their mental | 1:29:28 | 1:29:34 | |
health conditions are often related
to experience of violence or abuse, | 1:29:34 | 1:29:39 | |
so using restrained to a survivor of
that risks traumatising the patient. | 1:29:39 | 1:29:44 | |
It is essential we take steps to
reduce the risk of force and address | 1:29:44 | 1:29:50 | |
the unconscious bias and the bill
seeks to reverse through | 1:29:50 | 1:29:55 | |
transparency, evidence,
accountability and justice. It will | 1:29:55 | 1:29:57 | |
increase transparency. Data is
currently not collective unit | 1:29:57 | 1:30:03 | |
formally, and how restraint is
disproportionately used against | 1:30:03 | 1:30:06 | |
certain demographic is hard to
collect. The registered provider | 1:30:06 | 1:30:09 | |
must keep a record of any physical
restraint of a person at any of its | 1:30:09 | 1:30:13 | |
mental health units. This will
include the place, time and duration | 1:30:13 | 1:30:17 | |
of the restraint and also cover
gender, age and ethnicity of the | 1:30:17 | 1:30:21 | |
person restrained and, critically,
justifications for using that | 1:30:21 | 1:30:24 | |
restraint. Recording when, how and
why it is being used, who it is | 1:30:24 | 1:30:28 | |
being used on and what steps were
taken to avoid the use of restraint | 1:30:28 | 1:30:38 | |
in a uniform way will increase
transparency, allowing us to take | 1:30:38 | 1:30:40 | |
steps to improve the system were
issues of unconscious bias or | 1:30:40 | 1:30:42 | |
overuse of restraint occur. The bill
introduces steps to build and | 1:30:42 | 1:30:47 | |
improve the evidence available were
restrained as you. This bill will | 1:30:47 | 1:30:51 | |
require all police officers to wear
body cameras when called to a mental | 1:30:51 | 1:30:55 | |
health unit for any reason, unless
there are clear operational reasons | 1:30:55 | 1:30:59 | |
for not doing so. Research carried
out at the University of Cambridge | 1:30:59 | 1:31:01 | |
found that the use of police body
worn cameras made the use of force | 1:31:01 | 1:31:06 | |
and 50% less likely. Further, the
number of complaints filed against | 1:31:06 | 1:31:10 | |
officers reduced tenfold. The
evidence shows off that this measure | 1:31:10 | 1:31:16 | |
actually works. Increased public
trust in the police and protect | 1:31:16 | 1:31:19 | |
police officers from spurious
complaints. Overall, it doesn't seek | 1:31:19 | 1:31:22 | |
to improve accountability. The bill
creates two further duties. It | 1:31:22 | 1:31:27 | |
ensures that the responsible person
makes and maintained a written | 1:31:27 | 1:31:30 | |
policy for the use of physical
restraint and takes steps to ensure | 1:31:30 | 1:31:34 | |
it is only used in compliance with
this policy, and also ensures | 1:31:34 | 1:31:37 | |
training is provided to all
front-line staff. Finally, I want to | 1:31:37 | 1:31:42 | |
look at the way the bill improves
justice. We want to ensure that | 1:31:42 | 1:31:45 | |
tragedies like the one we have heard
about today do not happen again. The | 1:31:45 | 1:31:49 | |
bulk of this bill works towards this
goal. When tragedies such as the one | 1:31:49 | 1:31:55 | |
that happened to Olaseni Lewis do
occur, we need to make sure that | 1:31:55 | 1:31:59 | |
they are properly investigated and
the family received justice. This | 1:31:59 | 1:32:03 | |
makes it compulsory that an
independent investigation carried | 1:32:03 | 1:32:05 | |
out whenever a death occurs in a
mental health unit whenever the | 1:32:05 | 1:32:09 | |
person has been physically
restrained. This will in the scandal | 1:32:09 | 1:32:11 | |
of the family is not knowing the
circumstances of their loved one's | 1:32:11 | 1:32:14 | |
get. This is a step towards a model
of care rather than containment. It | 1:32:14 | 1:32:23 | |
contained measurable -- measures
which will support patients, their | 1:32:23 | 1:32:25 | |
families and emergency services
workers. It will increase public | 1:32:25 | 1:32:27 | |
trust and promote dignity and
respect in mental health services. | 1:32:27 | 1:32:31 | |
Restraint is used too often and
disproportionately in certain | 1:32:31 | 1:32:34 | |
sections of society and this cannot
be allowed to continue. I hope that | 1:32:34 | 1:32:38 | |
the Minister will support the bill
and allow it to pass to committee | 1:32:38 | 1:32:41 | |
stage as well. Thank you, Madam
Deputy Speaker. It is a privilege to | 1:32:41 | 1:32:47 | |
be called to contribute on this
important topic. I know that many | 1:32:47 | 1:32:52 | |
constituents who wrote to me asking
me to participate today will be | 1:32:52 | 1:32:55 | |
delighted that I have an opportunity
to highlight some of the issues that | 1:32:55 | 1:32:59 | |
they raise with me. At the outset, I
would like to commend the honourable | 1:32:59 | 1:33:03 | |
member for Croydon North is not just
for securing this debate and | 1:33:03 | 1:33:08 | |
championing of this bill, but also
in the constructors and consensual | 1:33:08 | 1:33:12 | |
way that he has gone about that. --
constructive. So much has changed in | 1:33:12 | 1:33:18 | |
our understanding of mental health.
There was a time when we thought of | 1:33:18 | 1:33:23 | |
mental health problems as something
that happened to other people. Away | 1:33:23 | 1:33:28 | |
from ordinary life. Now, how many of
us have a friend, a colleague or a | 1:33:28 | 1:33:34 | |
family member who we know has
suffered from mental ill health? | 1:33:34 | 1:33:38 | |
That is because more people rightly
no longer feel any shame because of | 1:33:38 | 1:33:47 | |
a mental health problem. Because
society is only journey of | 1:33:47 | 1:33:52 | |
understanding, attitudes are
changing and stigmas are breaking | 1:33:52 | 1:33:54 | |
down. We all recognise that good
mental health is no less important | 1:33:54 | 1:34:01 | |
than good physical health, but there
is still so much more for us to do. | 1:34:01 | 1:34:06 | |
This bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, is
the next step in our National | 1:34:06 | 1:34:10 | |
journey towards ending the
injustices that those who experience | 1:34:10 | 1:34:16 | |
mental health problems still face.
It is for this reason that I would | 1:34:16 | 1:34:21 | |
take this opportunity to again
congratulate my honourable friend | 1:34:21 | 1:34:24 | |
the Member for Croydon North, who
has spent many years working with | 1:34:24 | 1:34:28 | |
the family of the late Olaseni Lewis
Lewis as they fought for the truth | 1:34:28 | 1:34:33 | |
of what happened for their -- to
their son. It is crucial that we | 1:34:33 | 1:34:38 | |
learn the right lessons from what
happened to him. That is why I am | 1:34:38 | 1:34:43 | |
pleased to be sure today and to
discuss the important changes that | 1:34:43 | 1:34:48 | |
this bill will make to the
transparency of mental health units. | 1:34:48 | 1:34:52 | |
Then my contribution to this debate,
I wanted to highlight three areas in | 1:34:52 | 1:34:57 | |
particular. Firstly, how young
people specifically are affected by | 1:34:57 | 1:35:03 | |
mental ill-health. Secondly, to
discuss some of the measures are | 1:35:03 | 1:35:07 | |
already being put in place by the
government to help improve diagnosis | 1:35:07 | 1:35:10 | |
and treatment, and lastly, to touch
on just a few of the vital changes | 1:35:10 | 1:35:17 | |
that this bill will introduce. So,
to turn firstly to the topic of | 1:35:17 | 1:35:22 | |
mental health and young people,
Madam Deputy Speaker, I am | 1:35:22 | 1:35:26 | |
passionate about helping young
people get the best possible start | 1:35:26 | 1:35:30 | |
in life. Children, and indeed young
adults, should face no barrier to | 1:35:30 | 1:35:36 | |
making the most of their unique
talents, and enjoying their lives to | 1:35:36 | 1:35:40 | |
the field. Often, in this chamber,
we think of the obstacles that young | 1:35:40 | 1:35:46 | |
people may face in terms of social
mobility, access to a good job or | 1:35:46 | 1:35:52 | |
apprenticeship, are getting the
right education. But today, we are | 1:35:52 | 1:35:57 | |
absolutely right to be easier to
highlight the mental health merits | 1:35:57 | 1:36:02 | |
no less of our attention. For, if we
are to ensure that young people can | 1:36:02 | 1:36:06 | |
make the most of the opportunities
that they have and deserve, in | 1:36:06 | 1:36:11 | |
mental health provision for them
must be as accessible and as | 1:36:11 | 1:36:14 | |
high-quality as possible. We know
the sad truth that mental health | 1:36:14 | 1:36:21 | |
issues disproportionately affect
young people. Now, many of us in | 1:36:21 | 1:36:28 | |
this chamber are all too familiar
with the negativity and the hurtful | 1:36:28 | 1:36:31 | |
comments that some people choose to
spread through social media. Now, | 1:36:31 | 1:36:37 | |
put yourselves in the shoes of a
young, impressionable teenager or | 1:36:37 | 1:36:42 | |
indeed primary school student. One
in ten young people say they have | 1:36:42 | 1:36:48 | |
been a victim of cyber bullying. It
is hard to imagine how difficult it | 1:36:48 | 1:36:53 | |
might be for a young person when
they are smartphone or their social | 1:36:53 | 1:36:58 | |
media becomes a way for police to
reach them. On this point, I would | 1:36:58 | 1:37:03 | |
commend Google, who recently
participated in an excellent | 1:37:03 | 1:37:09 | |
workshop in my constituency, talking
to primary school children about | 1:37:09 | 1:37:12 | |
Internet safety and how young people
can protect themselves online from | 1:37:12 | 1:37:16 | |
unwanted and hurtful attention.
Google, I believe, is rolling out | 1:37:16 | 1:37:21 | |
this project across the country and
I would urge my honourable members | 1:37:21 | 1:37:24 | |
on both sidess of the House to work
with them when they come to their | 1:37:24 | 1:37:29 | |
constituencies, go into schools and
talk to young people about the | 1:37:29 | 1:37:32 | |
importance of protecting themselves
online. That is fascinating, what my | 1:37:32 | 1:37:40 | |
honourable friend is saying. May I
ask whether parents will be able to | 1:37:40 | 1:37:45 | |
put some sort of inhibitor onto
Facebook, or is it entirely just | 1:37:45 | 1:37:49 | |
going to be child? My honourable
friend makes an excellent point, and | 1:37:49 | 1:37:56 | |
the workshop also provides tax for
children to take to their | 1:37:56 | 1:38:00 | |
appearance, which teachers will also
give them, so that parents can | 1:38:00 | 1:38:04 | |
become much more engaged with their
children's online presence. That is | 1:38:04 | 1:38:08 | |
something I, as a parent of young
children, and starting to be more | 1:38:08 | 1:38:11 | |
aware of, as I am sure many of us
are. We all must be aware of what | 1:38:11 | 1:38:16 | |
our children are doing, in the same
way we are careful when they cross | 1:38:16 | 1:38:19 | |
the street when they go to the we
must be careful about what they do | 1:38:19 | 1:38:28 | |
online. I know... I would be
delighted. I am very grateful. He is | 1:38:28 | 1:38:30 | |
absolutely right to draw attention
to wear sensible measures are put in | 1:38:30 | 1:38:34 | |
place to help potential victims, but
it has got to go beyond that. | 1:38:34 | 1:38:39 | |
Perpetrators of abuse as well have
got to understand there will be | 1:38:39 | 1:38:42 | |
consequences for them so that the
onus is not always did on the | 1:38:42 | 1:38:45 | |
victim, but the perpetrator can
expect to be punished as well. | 1:38:45 | 1:38:49 | |
Again, my honourable friend makes an
excellent point of one and only | 1:38:49 | 1:38:53 | |
spoken about before, and the Member
for North West Hampshire, again, on | 1:38:53 | 1:38:57 | |
this topic has spoken passionately
in this about more that we need to | 1:38:57 | 1:39:01 | |
need to do to protect children
online and ensure that our children | 1:39:01 | 1:39:05 | |
have a safe place to play and learn
about the world around them. I thank | 1:39:05 | 1:39:10 | |
him for giving way and think he
rightly pays tribute to the work of | 1:39:10 | 1:39:15 | |
our honourable friend the Member for
North West amateur. He makes an | 1:39:15 | 1:39:19 | |
important point which pertains to
mental health which is that children | 1:39:19 | 1:39:22 | |
need to have a safe architecture in
which to grow up. Just as we do in | 1:39:22 | 1:39:26 | |
the physical world as parents, they
must have that safety and security | 1:39:26 | 1:39:31 | |
in their online world, where
increasingly children spend more of | 1:39:31 | 1:39:34 | |
their time. He is absolutely right
and has said it better than I could | 1:39:34 | 1:39:38 | |
see it myself, so I will move back
to the physical world, if I may. The | 1:39:38 | 1:39:48 | |
sad truth is the evidence is there
that self harm amongst young people | 1:39:48 | 1:39:51 | |
is on the rise. It is absolutely
right that the government has | 1:39:51 | 1:39:53 | |
responded to this by improving
mental health training in schools, | 1:39:53 | 1:39:55 | |
and many colleagues have already
mentioned the importance of | 1:39:55 | 1:39:57 | |
appropriate training for those who
are dealing with children, or indeed | 1:39:57 | 1:40:02 | |
adults, with mental health issues.
This is absolutely vital and it will | 1:40:02 | 1:40:07 | |
help teachers and staff at school is
not just identify but also assist at | 1:40:07 | 1:40:10 | |
risk children. He is talking about
mental health treatment for children | 1:40:10 | 1:40:18 | |
and young people where we know there
is a huge amount of work to do to | 1:40:18 | 1:40:21 | |
improve services and meet rising
demand, but does he welcome, as I | 1:40:21 | 1:40:26 | |
do, that last year an extra 21,000
children were treated by childrens | 1:40:26 | 1:40:31 | |
and Young Persons act mental health
services, so we are making progress? | 1:40:31 | 1:40:36 | |
I thank her for that comment and now
she is a tireless advocate for | 1:40:36 | 1:40:40 | |
health care services, especially
mental health, in this place. I did | 1:40:40 | 1:40:44 | |
not know that particular statistic
but it is very welcome and I am sure | 1:40:44 | 1:40:47 | |
will be welcomed by members on both
sides of this House. Furthermore, it | 1:40:47 | 1:40:51 | |
should be our aim that children are
not sent out of area to be treated | 1:40:51 | 1:40:59 | |
for general mental health
conditions. Accessibility is an | 1:40:59 | 1:41:01 | |
issue I am specifically focused on,
representing a very large and | 1:41:01 | 1:41:04 | |
sparsely populated rural
constituency. Right now, the mental | 1:41:04 | 1:41:09 | |
health trust is looking to shift
inpatient services away from our | 1:41:09 | 1:41:15 | |
excellent local hospital, the
Friarage, in Northallerton, to | 1:41:15 | 1:41:18 | |
places as far afield as Darlington,
Middlesbrough and indeed Bishop | 1:41:18 | 1:41:23 | |
Auckland, which would be over an
hour and a half's drive for some | 1:41:23 | 1:41:27 | |
patients. This is of considerable
concern to me and no doubt a | 1:41:27 | 1:41:30 | |
situation that other colleagues will
have experienced themselves. Amidst | 1:41:30 | 1:41:34 | |
this background, we owe it to the
young people of this country to | 1:41:34 | 1:41:39 | |
ensure that mental health services
are indeed safe and transparent. So, | 1:41:39 | 1:41:43 | |
when young people seek out, like the
Lewis family did, they will receive | 1:41:43 | 1:41:48 | |
it secure in the knowledge that they
will receive the high standards of | 1:41:48 | 1:41:52 | |
care that we all expect. Secondly,
to turn to the action that the | 1:41:52 | 1:41:58 | |
government is already taking on this
important topic. | 1:41:58 | 1:42:07 | |
Legislating for parity was a
landmark step to tackle the | 1:42:07 | 1:42:12 | |
injustices that people suffering
from mental health problems need. | 1:42:12 | 1:42:18 | |
This will require not just effort
but determination. But we cannot be | 1:42:18 | 1:42:23 | |
in any doubt over the government's
efforts, led by a Prime Minister | 1:42:23 | 1:42:27 | |
passionate about this issue, to do
more than ever before to bring about | 1:42:27 | 1:42:32 | |
real change, to tackle what has been
so aptly described as a burning | 1:42:32 | 1:42:37 | |
injustice. The Prime Minister has
overseen a £1 billion increase in | 1:42:37 | 1:42:43 | |
the funding available for mental
health. And, as my colleague has | 1:42:43 | 1:42:53 | |
mentioned, she has championed a
reduction in the number of people | 1:42:53 | 1:42:56 | |
suffering a mental health crisis to
end up any police rather than eight | 1:42:56 | 1:43:01 | |
Place of safety. I know the whole
house will eagerly anticipate the | 1:43:01 | 1:43:05 | |
conclusion of the review led by
Professor Sir Simon Wesley. He will | 1:43:05 | 1:43:11 | |
look at why detention rates under
the Mental Health Act are | 1:43:11 | 1:43:14 | |
increasing. And we should examine
the important, sensitive and complex | 1:43:14 | 1:43:22 | |
issue... Yes, I'd be delighted to.
Thank you for giving way. Let me | 1:43:22 | 1:43:28 | |
congratulate my honourable friend
from North Croydon. The point I | 1:43:28 | 1:43:34 | |
would like to bring to your
attention is this. I have had a | 1:43:34 | 1:43:41 | |
number of constituents, including
professionals who work in this | 1:43:41 | 1:43:45 | |
field, and they point to the point
that racism causes people from BAe M | 1:43:45 | 1:43:52 | |
E backgrounds to experience mental
health issues. We have heading | 1:43:52 | 1:43:54 | |
number of stats that BAME people are
more likely to be admitted to | 1:43:54 | 1:44:06 | |
hospital, especially Afro-Caribbean
people, who are overrepresented in | 1:44:06 | 1:44:10 | |
hospital. It is about unconscious
bias. Among clinical professionals, | 1:44:10 | 1:44:16 | |
they have to meet the needs of
people from to and religious | 1:44:16 | 1:44:21 | |
backgrounds. Do you believe it is
right that this bill increases data | 1:44:21 | 1:44:26 | |
and transparency in this area? I
think my honourable friend, his | 1:44:26 | 1:44:35 | |
intervention was timely, because I
was just about to say, we should of | 1:44:35 | 1:44:39 | |
course examine the important,
complex and sensitive issue of | 1:44:39 | 1:44:44 | |
whether minorities are
disproportionately suffering poor | 1:44:44 | 1:44:47 | |
mental health treatment or outcomes.
But I do think we should be careful | 1:44:47 | 1:44:51 | |
about reaching for the knee jerk
conclusion, that may be potentially | 1:44:51 | 1:44:57 | |
mistaken, and labelling the problem
as one of institutional racism. I | 1:44:57 | 1:45:00 | |
hope that Sir Simon Wesley takes
note of the arguments that have been | 1:45:00 | 1:45:05 | |
made forcefully by the former deputy
Mayor of London, because she has | 1:45:05 | 1:45:12 | |
cited a social and community
psychiatrist with 30 years of | 1:45:12 | 1:45:15 | |
clinical experience in this area,
who has argued that institutional | 1:45:15 | 1:45:19 | |
racism in his profession is not the
primary cause of BAME community is | 1:45:19 | 1:45:26 | |
being disproportionately affected by
these issues. He cites studies that | 1:45:26 | 1:45:28 | |
show BAME communities and migrant
groups are more exposed to mental | 1:45:28 | 1:45:34 | |
health risk factors. We should
tackle those risk factors as a | 1:45:34 | 1:45:38 | |
matter of priority. Those include
things like family breakdown, | 1:45:38 | 1:45:42 | |
substance abuse, poverty, living in
areas with low social cohesion and | 1:45:42 | 1:45:47 | |
the personal experience of migration
and prior incidents of racial | 1:45:47 | 1:45:51 | |
prejudice. It is a sensitive area.
The headline numbers pose difficult | 1:45:51 | 1:45:56 | |
questions for a public services, but
we should get to grips with the | 1:45:56 | 1:46:01 | |
underlying data, before reaching the
conclusion is that may be incorrect | 1:46:01 | 1:46:03 | |
and not pay tribute are doing the
best of intentions. We must indeed | 1:46:03 | 1:46:09 | |
be more ambitious, and to use every
opportunity to further our efforts. | 1:46:09 | 1:46:15 | |
Programmes such as including mental
health awareness courses in the | 1:46:15 | 1:46:19 | |
National citizens servers, or indeed
the £150 million the government is | 1:46:19 | 1:46:24 | |
investing to support teenagers with
eating disorders, the ways that are | 1:46:24 | 1:46:28 | |
practical and will make sure that
mental health isn't something we | 1:46:28 | 1:46:32 | |
discuss in isolation, or something
that can only happen in a clinical | 1:46:32 | 1:46:35 | |
setting. Does he agree with me that
the recent announcement that 1 | 1:46:35 | 1:46:40 | |
million people are going to be
trained in mental health first aid | 1:46:40 | 1:46:43 | |
is a huge step forward in raising
the skills and awareness of how we | 1:46:43 | 1:46:47 | |
deal with mental health? She makes
an excellent point and displays her | 1:46:47 | 1:46:52 | |
knowledge of this area. I think that
is absolutely the right solution, | 1:46:52 | 1:46:55 | |
that we can bring help to people
where they need it in as many | 1:46:55 | 1:47:00 | |
possible settings as we can and I
welcome the number of people being | 1:47:00 | 1:47:05 | |
trained. Mental health provision
needs to be part of an ongoing | 1:47:05 | 1:47:10 | |
conversation about the development
of young people and the issues they | 1:47:10 | 1:47:13 | |
face. I am confident that we, as a
society, are now heading in the | 1:47:13 | 1:47:20 | |
right direction. But, as I have
noted, despite the substantial | 1:47:20 | 1:47:25 | |
amount of progress, we cannot
believe that the job is done. That | 1:47:25 | 1:47:31 | |
is why I will turn briefly to the
Bill that my honourable friend has | 1:47:31 | 1:47:37 | |
introduced odes talk about in just a
few provisions in it and why I | 1:47:37 | 1:47:41 | |
believe it will make a real
difference to the transparency in | 1:47:41 | 1:47:44 | |
treatment of young people across the
country. The Bill will establish the | 1:47:44 | 1:47:49 | |
requirement that mental health units
must publish how and when the use of | 1:47:49 | 1:47:53 | |
force. This appears to me to be an
eminently sensible change. All of us | 1:47:53 | 1:47:58 | |
will be familiar with the detailed
reports from Ofsted and the Care | 1:47:58 | 1:48:03 | |
Quality Commission, the information
that they publish gives us a window | 1:48:03 | 1:48:08 | |
into how our public services are
being run. The strengths and | 1:48:08 | 1:48:12 | |
weaknesses of organisations being
made available, gives us the | 1:48:12 | 1:48:18 | |
transparency we need to know what
improvements we must make. I see no | 1:48:18 | 1:48:23 | |
reason why this should be any
different with data on the use of | 1:48:23 | 1:48:27 | |
force. But it is not just the
general public that needs this | 1:48:27 | 1:48:31 | |
transparency. It is the families of
patients who force has been used | 1:48:31 | 1:48:36 | |
against. Of course, sometimes,
health professionals will make the | 1:48:36 | 1:48:42 | |
difficult judgment to use
proportionate force in certain | 1:48:42 | 1:48:47 | |
circumstances, but it took seven
years until the Lewis family were | 1:48:47 | 1:48:49 | |
unable to get the full truth about
the event that led to their son's | 1:48:49 | 1:48:54 | |
death. No family should be put in
this position ever again. So the | 1:48:54 | 1:49:01 | |
Bill also establishes a duty on the
service provider of a mental health | 1:49:01 | 1:49:05 | |
unit to record any instance of the
use of force on a patient. In | 1:49:05 | 1:49:11 | |
addition to recording several
demographic characteristics. Added | 1:49:11 | 1:49:13 | |
together with the requirements for
police officers attending units to | 1:49:13 | 1:49:19 | |
wear a body camera, this bill will
help us to be much clearer about how | 1:49:19 | 1:49:24 | |
force is being used, against whom
and why. I also would highlight a | 1:49:24 | 1:49:31 | |
provision that, in the event of the
death of a patient who was subject | 1:49:31 | 1:49:34 | |
to the use of force, the government
will appoint an independent | 1:49:34 | 1:49:38 | |
investigator, who will produce a
report on the incident in a timely | 1:49:38 | 1:49:42 | |
fashion. Families who undergo such a
tragic loss will, because of this | 1:49:42 | 1:49:47 | |
Bill, have the official help they
need to get the truth about what | 1:49:47 | 1:49:50 | |
happened to their loved one. These
are essential changes, which I hope | 1:49:50 | 1:49:57 | |
will insure that in the future, no
family will have to fight as hard as | 1:49:57 | 1:50:01 | |
the Lewis family did to get the
truth that they deserved. In | 1:50:01 | 1:50:07 | |
conclusion, as many as one in four
of us will experience mental | 1:50:07 | 1:50:11 | |
ill-health at some point in our
lives. This is an issue that is | 1:50:11 | 1:50:17 | |
simply too profound for us not to
always ask ourselves as legislators | 1:50:17 | 1:50:22 | |
in this place, what more can we do
to prevent injustice or coding? What | 1:50:22 | 1:50:27 | |
barriers must this house help break
down? And that is why, once again, I | 1:50:27 | 1:50:35 | |
commend the honourable member for
Croydon North for his long-standing | 1:50:35 | 1:50:39 | |
efforts, on behalf of both the Lewis
family and more broadly, the many | 1:50:39 | 1:50:45 | |
people across the country who suffer
from mental ill-health. The | 1:50:45 | 1:50:49 | |
provisions of this Bill will give
families and the public the | 1:50:49 | 1:50:52 | |
transparency we need to make sure
that force is used only where | 1:50:52 | 1:50:55 | |
necessary. And it is part of the
journey that this nation is on to | 1:50:55 | 1:51:04 | |
ensure that people with mental
ill-health are viewed no differently | 1:51:04 | 1:51:08 | |
than those with physical ill-health.
I commend the government for backing | 1:51:08 | 1:51:12 | |
this important piece of legislation
and I have been delighted to speak | 1:51:12 | 1:51:16 | |
in support of this Bill today. May I
add my congratulations to those of | 1:51:16 | 1:51:21 | |
all my other colleagues, to the
honourable member for Croydon North | 1:51:21 | 1:51:25 | |
for bringing forward this Bill. I
warmly supported and I applaud his | 1:51:25 | 1:51:33 | |
willingness to work with people
across the house to make sure this | 1:51:33 | 1:51:39 | |
Bill meets all the requirements
needed. I will share a story about | 1:51:39 | 1:51:46 | |
one of my own constituents. Also saw
that the Bill works properly for | 1:51:46 | 1:51:50 | |
those involved in mental health care
in our country, and who, like our | 1:51:50 | 1:51:56 | |
police, will occasionally have cause
to have to restrain those who are | 1:51:56 | 1:52:01 | |
mentally ill. They work in very
challenging circumstances, and it's | 1:52:01 | 1:52:05 | |
important that this Bill fully
reflect the challenging | 1:52:05 | 1:52:08 | |
circumstances in which they do
operate, and is workable advert of | 1:52:08 | 1:52:12 | |
them, as much as being fair and
transparent for those who are on the | 1:52:12 | 1:52:15 | |
receiving end of it. Three areas
that I would like to talk about. The | 1:52:15 | 1:52:20 | |
first of which is to share with the
how is the story of my constituent | 1:52:20 | 1:52:27 | |
James Herbert, who died whilst in
police custody in 2010. He was | 1:52:27 | 1:52:33 | |
mentally ill and had been restrained
shortly before his death. Then how | 1:52:33 | 1:52:39 | |
this bill in many ways might have
helped in that situation and how in | 1:52:39 | 1:52:43 | |
so many ways, it will certainly help
to make sure that those sort of | 1:52:43 | 1:52:47 | |
events don't happen again. And
thirdly, what additional training we | 1:52:47 | 1:52:53 | |
might offer, not only to our police,
but to those who work in mental | 1:52:53 | 1:52:58 | |
health, to make sure there are safer
techniques for restraint, yes, but | 1:52:58 | 1:53:03 | |
also a greater understanding of how
we did escalate those circumstances | 1:53:03 | 1:53:07 | |
of that restraint might not be
necessary. James Herbert was known | 1:53:07 | 1:53:14 | |
to the Avon and Somerset police,
especially those serving in and | 1:53:14 | 1:53:20 | |
around Wells, as are suffering from
mental ill-health. Before he died, | 1:53:20 | 1:53:25 | |
there were a number of occasions
with the police had cause to observe | 1:53:25 | 1:53:28 | |
his behaviour. In the evening, he
was detained by the police and in | 1:53:28 | 1:53:33 | |
the process of that detention, he
was restrained. He was then put into | 1:53:33 | 1:53:39 | |
a police van and oven for 45 minutes
to eat custody suite on a hot June | 1:53:39 | 1:53:45 | |
day, where he was stripped naked and
put into a police cell. He died | 1:53:45 | 1:53:49 | |
later that night of cardiac arrest.
The IPCC have looked into his death | 1:53:49 | 1:53:55 | |
in full, as one would imagine, in
the seven years since. Their report | 1:53:55 | 1:54:03 | |
shows six mix chances and is rightly
critical of what happened that | 1:54:03 | 1:54:06 | |
night. It's important to note that
the police officers individually | 1:54:06 | 1:54:11 | |
involved, one of them is still a
constituent, and another, very | 1:54:11 | 1:54:17 | |
sadly, took his own life a year or
two ago, that they have not been | 1:54:17 | 1:54:22 | |
held personally responsible for what
happened, the feelings that when | 1:54:22 | 1:54:28 | |
identified were systemic,
institutionalised feelings, the | 1:54:28 | 1:54:30 | |
misunderstanding of mental
ill-health, in the wee those | 1:54:30 | 1:54:33 | |
processes were handled. I think
therefore, there is a great thing in | 1:54:33 | 1:54:38 | |
this bill, in that it brings forward
a very important aspect of dealing | 1:54:38 | 1:54:44 | |
with those with mental ill-health,
that sometimes, restraint is | 1:54:44 | 1:54:48 | |
unavoidably necessary, and how that
is done can have very profound | 1:54:48 | 1:54:56 | |
impact for the honourable
gentleman's constituent and for | 1:54:56 | 1:54:58 | |
mine. The Bill will help,
undoubtedly it will help. Staff not | 1:54:58 | 1:55:06 | |
deliberately restraining people in a
way that constrains an era where | 1:55:06 | 1:55:08 | |
it's clearly a very important and
necessary provision. So too is to | 1:55:08 | 1:55:16 | |
say that to restrict the
intervention with a retraining | 1:55:16 | 1:55:21 | |
technique that would cause pain, and
similarly, that people should always | 1:55:21 | 1:55:28 | |
seek to use the least restrictive
method of retaining possible. Both | 1:55:28 | 1:55:35 | |
of those are very necessarily de
escalate to the measures, that in | 1:55:35 | 1:55:39 | |
themselves, could help, maybe not
quite to calm the person being | 1:55:39 | 1:55:46 | |
detained, but at least not aggravate
them further, which is so often the | 1:55:46 | 1:55:49 | |
case. The more and more I have
spoken to police officers about | 1:55:49 | 1:55:54 | |
James Herbert's case, the more they
tell me that their own concern to | 1:55:54 | 1:55:58 | |
get their job done and to retain the
person, means that they just find | 1:55:58 | 1:56:05 | |
themselves naturally going up
through the levels of force and | 1:56:05 | 1:56:10 | |
through the sort of application of
their physical power, in order to | 1:56:10 | 1:56:15 | |
achieve the retention that they had
sought out to achieve. The fact that | 1:56:15 | 1:56:19 | |
those sides are rubbing off each
other in getting more aggravated, | 1:56:19 | 1:56:23 | |
the use of force becoming greater,
they reflect afterwards that if they | 1:56:23 | 1:56:28 | |
had approached the situation
differently in the first place... I | 1:56:28 | 1:56:31 | |
give way. | 1:56:31 | 1:56:40 | |
Whilst I don't know DS Mrs T of the
constituent who died in custody that | 1:56:40 | 1:56:44 | |
he speaks of, would he agree with me
that the concerns of mental health, | 1:56:44 | 1:56:49 | |
particularly when the person
involved can be physically robust, | 1:56:49 | 1:56:54 | |
can be very intimidating for the
police and medical people involved, | 1:56:54 | 1:56:58 | |
they need our support as well as the
measures in this bill, in ensuring | 1:56:58 | 1:57:04 | |
there is safety both for them and
the people they are caring for? So | 1:57:04 | 1:57:09 | |
my honourable friend, as ever, makes
an excellent point. These are highly | 1:57:09 | 1:57:15 | |
challenging confrontational
situations. James Herbert was white, | 1:57:15 | 1:57:19 | |
but was a big guy. And you can
imagine that as his anger and | 1:57:19 | 1:57:27 | |
emotion is built, so too did the
efforts of those police officers, | 1:57:27 | 1:57:31 | |
who were trying for his own safety
to restrain him. My honourable | 1:57:31 | 1:57:36 | |
friend is absolutely right in
observing that sometimes there are | 1:57:36 | 1:57:40 | |
people who are physically very
intimidating, who require restraint. | 1:57:40 | 1:57:44 | |
And if you are the police officer or
the mental health worker involved in | 1:57:44 | 1:57:49 | |
that restraint, there is a sort of
fear on their part, for their own | 1:57:49 | 1:57:54 | |
physical safety, that may lead them
to use overly aggressive techniques, | 1:57:54 | 1:57:59 | |
and instead of focusing on
de-escalation are focused on self | 1:57:59 | 1:58:02 | |
preservation. There is a great
confidence required both in the | 1:58:02 | 1:58:07 | |
techniques that are taught for
restraint, but also in confidence | 1:58:07 | 1:58:11 | |
and understanding in how to deal
with those who have acute mental | 1:58:11 | 1:58:15 | |
health challenges, that is
absolutely necessary, so that | 1:58:15 | 1:58:19 | |
people, instead of fearing the
physical confrontation they find | 1:58:19 | 1:58:23 | |
themselves in, or able to apply the
right skills in the right way to | 1:58:23 | 1:58:27 | |
bring about the right outcome. I
agree very much with some of the | 1:58:27 | 1:58:32 | |
other provisions that are in the
bill. Seclusion should be an | 1:58:32 | 1:58:36 | |
absolute last resort. It is in
itself a very alienating and | 1:58:36 | 1:58:41 | |
escalator in measure. So too is the
immediate and confident and | 1:58:41 | 1:58:51 | |
sympathetic engagement of other
people involved in the care of the | 1:58:51 | 1:58:55 | |
mental health patient. The police,
in the case of James Herbert, phoned | 1:58:55 | 1:59:01 | |
his mother when they were in the
process of detaining him. They | 1:59:01 | 1:59:05 | |
phoned her to talk to her about
something very different, rather | 1:59:05 | 1:59:10 | |
than asking her about his condition
and how, what things she might be | 1:59:10 | 1:59:15 | |
able to share with them, in order to
be able to manage him much more | 1:59:15 | 1:59:20 | |
appropriately in that situation. And
the other thing that I agree with | 1:59:20 | 1:59:25 | |
passionately, having seen the
profound impact that James Herbert's | 1:59:25 | 1:59:30 | |
case has had, not only on his own
family and friends very obviously, | 1:59:30 | 1:59:33 | |
but on the careers and lives of
those involved in his detention and | 1:59:33 | 1:59:42 | |
sadly his death, is that body
cameras would have made an enormous | 1:59:42 | 1:59:46 | |
difference in this case. I will
gladly give way. Does my honourable | 1:59:46 | 1:59:52 | |
friend, like me, welcome body worn
cameras, however, we should have a | 1:59:52 | 1:59:58 | |
facility where an emergency, when
someone is subjected to immediate | 1:59:58 | 2:00:06 | |
harm and the absence of a body warm
camera should not prevent somebody | 2:00:06 | 2:00:12 | |
coming in to address the situation.
I very much accept that there will | 2:00:12 | 2:00:20 | |
be situations that are immediate and
require an immediate intervention. | 2:00:20 | 2:00:25 | |
As a former soldier who was very
used to having to work on immediate | 2:00:25 | 2:00:30 | |
notice, to move at times, I would
suggest that the solution to that is | 2:00:30 | 2:00:34 | |
there must always be somebody in a
custody suite or on a mental health | 2:00:34 | 2:00:39 | |
ward who was an immediate notice to
move, he was wearing the right kit, | 2:00:39 | 2:00:43 | |
and it should be a simple drill for
those who are managing the | 2:00:43 | 2:00:46 | |
facilities that that should be
required. It is not that everybody | 2:00:46 | 2:00:50 | |
needs to be sat around at all times
with their stab vests and their | 2:00:50 | 2:01:02 | |
camera worn, but you would think if
you are in a circumstance where | 2:01:02 | 2:01:05 | |
somebody, if you are in a custody
suite, that one person in that | 2:01:05 | 2:01:08 | |
custody suite should be required to
be wearing the appropriate kit at | 2:01:08 | 2:01:11 | |
all times. Those cameras are a great
addition to what the police officers | 2:01:11 | 2:01:14 | |
wear. They are themselves a
de-escalate three measure. I have | 2:01:14 | 2:01:19 | |
been told that the simple act of
turning them on and people seeing, | 2:01:19 | 2:01:24 | |
this is away from today's issue of
those suffering from mental health | 2:01:24 | 2:01:29 | |
issues, the act of switching them on
and people on the high street who | 2:01:29 | 2:01:32 | |
have had a few too many drinks,
seeing themselves on the screen and | 2:01:32 | 2:01:36 | |
knowing their behaviour is being
recorded, that things start to calm | 2:01:36 | 2:01:40 | |
down and responsibility returns. I
will gladly give way. | 2:01:40 | 2:01:45 | |
I'm grateful for him raising this
very important point and I'm | 2:01:45 | 2:01:48 | |
grateful for the point made opposite
but he will be interested to know | 2:01:48 | 2:01:51 | |
there is a weight of academic
evidence now published, that shows | 2:01:51 | 2:01:55 | |
the mere presence of body cameras
warned by police in the | 2:01:55 | 2:02:00 | |
circumstances reduces the likelihood
of force being used by nearly 50% | 2:02:00 | 2:02:04 | |
and that alone is reason enough to
require police to wear body cameras. | 2:02:04 | 2:02:12 | |
The honourable gentleman that
slickly right. It is great on days | 2:02:12 | 2:02:16 | |
like this when the House are in
agreement with each other. -- the | 2:02:16 | 2:02:20 | |
honourable gentleman is absolutely
right. The cameras give those who | 2:02:20 | 2:02:25 | |
want to complain about what they see
as unfair treatment, they give a | 2:02:25 | 2:02:30 | |
transparency but so too do they give
a really and protection. As | 2:02:30 | 2:02:35 | |
important as the stab vest is the
protection that is offered by these | 2:02:35 | 2:02:39 | |
cameras which can reassure police
officers that they will have a video | 2:02:39 | 2:02:43 | |
record of what they did.
I'm grateful to my honourable friend | 2:02:43 | 2:02:48 | |
for giving way. On the subject of
body worn cameras I accept points | 2:02:48 | 2:02:52 | |
from both sides of the House. The
bill as it is drafted makes it clear | 2:02:52 | 2:02:57 | |
the officer has to turn the device
on as soon as practically possible | 2:02:57 | 2:03:00 | |
from the point when they are called.
Do you think it should be that that | 2:03:00 | 2:03:05 | |
is the point when they attend the
mental health unit and not the point | 2:03:05 | 2:03:09 | |
where they take the call itself. Is
that too onerous for the officers? I | 2:03:09 | 2:03:14 | |
just make the point. Having had the
discussion with local police | 2:03:14 | 2:03:19 | |
constables and the police commander,
I do think that police officers have | 2:03:19 | 2:03:24 | |
an instinct for when they are going
into a certain type of situation. | 2:03:24 | 2:03:29 | |
And certainly in a custody suite,
one would imagine that if you were | 2:03:29 | 2:03:35 | |
on the custody desk and you heard
that something was happening that | 2:03:35 | 2:03:39 | |
might require your intervention, you
would obviously, as you were going | 2:03:39 | 2:03:43 | |
down to the cell or wherever it was
happening, flicked on the camera as | 2:03:43 | 2:03:47 | |
a matter of drill, assuming of
course that what we were just | 2:03:47 | 2:03:51 | |
discussing, that it should be a
standard practice, that somebody in | 2:03:51 | 2:03:56 | |
those circumstances is always fully
kitted out. I will gladly give way. | 2:03:56 | 2:04:02 | |
In terms of the bill, the
requirement is when they are | 2:04:02 | 2:04:06 | |
attending a mental health unit, my
understanding is that the unit has | 2:04:06 | 2:04:09 | |
an issue and they have called the
police to attend them. Many custody | 2:04:09 | 2:04:15 | |
suites do have cameras operating.
The real solution to this is | 2:04:15 | 2:04:20 | |
response officers, those who are
deployed ready to attend 999 calls | 2:04:20 | 2:04:24 | |
should have body worn cameras. That
helps not just in this instance but | 2:04:24 | 2:04:28 | |
in many other circumstances as well.
My honourable friend was right. | 2:04:28 | 2:04:33 | |
Whenever going out to an | 2:04:33 | 2:04:45 | |
actual call-out, when attending a
mental health unit, just as | 2:04:46 | 2:04:48 | |
attending any other event in the
community, the police officer will | 2:04:48 | 2:04:50 | |
have deployed in their full kit, in
their patrol car and they would | 2:04:50 | 2:04:53 | |
already have been wearing it and
would have switched on their camera | 2:04:53 | 2:04:56 | |
as they were entering the situation
if they thought it was necessary. I | 2:04:56 | 2:04:59 | |
would think much more likely, as
would have been the case perhaps | 2:04:59 | 2:05:02 | |
with James Herbert, that if people
were called into a situation when | 2:05:02 | 2:05:05 | |
they were not out on the street and
they might have just been nearby and | 2:05:05 | 2:05:10 | |
lending a hand, especially if the
cameras that are fixed cameras | 2:05:10 | 2:05:14 | |
within the building or skewered by
those who are doing the detention, | 2:05:14 | 2:05:21 | |
actually, I seal real merit in them
being used in those situations as | 2:05:21 | 2:05:24 | |
well. This is not just about how to
make sure that those very acute | 2:05:24 | 2:05:32 | |
immediate interventions are handled
properly. This is also about what | 2:05:32 | 2:05:36 | |
additional training might be offered
to our police and mental health | 2:05:36 | 2:05:41 | |
workers, to make sure these
situations do not arise in the first | 2:05:41 | 2:05:46 | |
place. The key to that I think, and
this goes without saying for mental | 2:05:46 | 2:05:52 | |
health workers, who by vocation
understand this stuff, the police | 2:05:52 | 2:05:56 | |
are much less confidence I think in
dealing with people with mental | 2:05:56 | 2:06:01 | |
health issues than they should be.
And training for our police force to | 2:06:01 | 2:06:05 | |
be able to spot those signs, so that
they can intervene appropriately, | 2:06:05 | 2:06:11 | |
with concern and with care, would be
very helpful and would avoid, I | 2:06:11 | 2:06:17 | |
suspect, a very large number of the
instances that we are debating | 2:06:17 | 2:06:20 | |
today. There are techniques for
reassuring, there are techniques for | 2:06:20 | 2:06:27 | |
the escalating, there are techniques
for managing the anxiety which often | 2:06:27 | 2:06:36 | |
manifests itself an part of those
with mental illness and I think a | 2:06:36 | 2:06:40 | |
gripping police with those skills
would be very welcome indeed. A | 2:06:40 | 2:06:46 | |
number of years ago in a role on the
London assembly, I visited the young | 2:06:46 | 2:06:52 | |
offenders institution in Feltham,
and to the very point he makes, I | 2:06:52 | 2:06:55 | |
can't help but think there are a
number of young men in Feltham who | 2:06:55 | 2:07:00 | |
had mental health problems, but
whose interaction with the police | 2:07:00 | 2:07:02 | |
and with authority through mental
health episodes went to a stage | 2:07:02 | 2:07:08 | |
where they became violent, and
ultimately they found themselves | 2:07:08 | 2:07:11 | |
incarcerated, at least in part,
because perhaps that lack of | 2:07:11 | 2:07:20 | |
understanding and lack of training
on behalf of the police force. It is | 2:07:20 | 2:07:24 | |
not a moral criticism, it is at
observation which could help the | 2:07:24 | 2:07:30 | |
police and also the young men who
found themselves incarcerated in | 2:07:30 | 2:07:33 | |
perhaps what was not the most
appropriate institution. I agree. It | 2:07:33 | 2:07:39 | |
is interesting to reflect on some of
the conversations I have had with | 2:07:39 | 2:07:43 | |
the PCSOs my constituency, who by
their nature will understand or no | 2:07:43 | 2:07:48 | |
more intimately the community they
serve, and very often the PCSOs have | 2:07:48 | 2:07:53 | |
an insight into the mental health of
some of the people they routinely | 2:07:53 | 2:07:58 | |
see around town, who are on the
edges of anti-social behaviour or | 2:07:58 | 2:08:02 | |
even breaking the law, and the PCSOs
will very often be able to deal with | 2:08:02 | 2:08:08 | |
that person in a very different way,
because they have that understanding | 2:08:08 | 2:08:12 | |
of who they are dealing with. In any
case, the sort of job description of | 2:08:12 | 2:08:18 | |
the PCSO is such that they naturally
seek to de-escalate and deter rather | 2:08:18 | 2:08:24 | |
than enforce the law. I think it is
a very interesting observation to | 2:08:24 | 2:08:29 | |
have made, and certainly something I
agree with, that it is possible to | 2:08:29 | 2:08:34 | |
avoid these circumstances happening
as often as they do. I will gladly | 2:08:34 | 2:08:38 | |
give way to the honourable lady from
Bath. I thank the honourable member | 2:08:38 | 2:08:43 | |
for giving way. He has pointed out
the importance of PCSOs, but many | 2:08:43 | 2:08:49 | |
police officers and >> LIEM:
authorities now have to cut those | 2:08:49 | 2:08:55 | |
services and wouldn't the honourable
member agree that it is very | 2:08:55 | 2:08:58 | |
regrettable that police services are
cut and the very important services | 2:08:58 | 2:09:02 | |
of our PCSOs are being taken away
from our community? My near | 2:09:02 | 2:09:08 | |
neighbour and with whom we share
probably the most beautiful diocese | 2:09:08 | 2:09:17 | |
in the country makes an interesting
point, one perhaps that she and I | 2:09:17 | 2:09:22 | |
might jointly take up with the
Police and Crime Commissioner for | 2:09:22 | 2:09:25 | |
Avon and Somerset police. I think
the decisions on how PCSOs are | 2:09:25 | 2:09:33 | |
allocated are hers, and it is not my
experience in my constituency that | 2:09:33 | 2:09:37 | |
PCSO numbers have been cut, in fact,
I have been very impressed by the | 2:09:37 | 2:09:42 | |
services we have seen from the PCSOs
in Somerset, during my time as the | 2:09:42 | 2:09:47 | |
MP for the wells constituency. This
bill is not a bill of exclusively | 2:09:47 | 2:09:55 | |
about police. This is about those
with mental health problems. I thank | 2:09:55 | 2:10:01 | |
my honourable friend for giving way.
It is really good that he is | 2:10:01 | 2:10:06 | |
highlighting the point about the
PCSOs, but can I say in Kent we will | 2:10:06 | 2:10:11 | |
be increasing the number of PCSOs
and police in our community, because | 2:10:11 | 2:10:16 | |
we have recognised that they play a
key role in that transition between | 2:10:16 | 2:10:21 | |
meeting people with mental health
issues on the streets, and being | 2:10:21 | 2:10:24 | |
able to direct them to the right
care from a very local level, rather | 2:10:24 | 2:10:28 | |
than having to get police officers
directly involved that the first | 2:10:28 | 2:10:33 | |
point. Does my honourable friend
agree with me that that is a good | 2:10:33 | 2:10:36 | |
thing and we are increasing numbers
in some places? I do very much | 2:10:36 | 2:10:41 | |
agree. I have no first-hand
experience of policing in Kent, she | 2:10:41 | 2:10:47 | |
will be pleased to know, but
certainly I agree that PCSOs are | 2:10:47 | 2:10:51 | |
very important and I don't see them
in anyway as a poor substitute for | 2:10:51 | 2:10:56 | |
actual police officers. I think the
way they do their business is | 2:10:56 | 2:11:01 | |
excellent. I am fortunate to have
some excellent PCSOs serving the | 2:11:01 | 2:11:06 | |
towns and villages in my
constituency and I think they make a | 2:11:06 | 2:11:11 | |
big difference in intervening the
way that they do and making sure | 2:11:11 | 2:11:14 | |
that crime levels stay as low as
they are. We have spoken a lot about | 2:11:14 | 2:11:21 | |
the police, inevitably so in my case
because the experience I have had | 2:11:21 | 2:11:25 | |
has been through a death in custody
and I wanted to share that with the | 2:11:25 | 2:11:29 | |
House. But this is really about a
wider way in which we care for those | 2:11:29 | 2:11:36 | |
with mental health conditions. | 2:11:36 | 2:11:43 | |
Mental health is something I am
passionate about and something I | 2:11:43 | 2:11:46 | |
learned a great deal about whole
serving in both Iraq and | 2:11:46 | 2:11:50 | |
Afghanistan. Before doing so, I was
one of the club that said that | 2:11:50 | 2:11:54 | |
people should just pull themselves
together. The reality is that when | 2:11:54 | 2:11:58 | |
you see people who are absolute
heroes, strong, strong people, who | 2:11:58 | 2:12:03 | |
have served in the army for 20
years, and you see their head break, | 2:12:03 | 2:12:08 | |
you stop making the distinction
between someone having their legs | 2:12:08 | 2:12:13 | |
blown off and the head break,
because they have had a trauma so | 2:12:13 | 2:12:22 | |
profound that it has done something
to them over which they have no more | 2:12:22 | 2:12:25 | |
control than the person who has lost
a limb. That has led me to look very | 2:12:25 | 2:12:28 | |
keenly at what mental health
provision looks like within my own | 2:12:28 | 2:12:31 | |
community, because I had quite an
epiphany in realising just how | 2:12:31 | 2:12:36 | |
important mental health care is. The
reality is that today, we're talking | 2:12:36 | 2:12:40 | |
about how to deal with people in the
most acute moments of crisis, and | 2:12:40 | 2:12:45 | |
that is a very necessary discussion,
but it mustn't distract from the | 2:12:45 | 2:12:49 | |
very urgent need, to talk about how
to stop them from getting to crisis | 2:12:49 | 2:12:55 | |
in the first place. Somerset's
mental health provision is really | 2:12:55 | 2:13:02 | |
quite hollow. We have a more than
adequate provision of acute mental | 2:13:02 | 2:13:06 | |
health beds and we have a reasonable
provision of community nursing. What | 2:13:06 | 2:13:10 | |
we don't have is the stuff in
between, the crisis houses, the step | 2:13:10 | 2:13:15 | |
up, step down facilities, that can
help people get a bit of space, to | 2:13:15 | 2:13:21 | |
avoid, to perhaps see off the
imminent danger of the critical | 2:13:21 | 2:13:26 | |
episode, and preventing them there
for from having to go to an acute | 2:13:26 | 2:13:30 | |
facility, where perhaps things might
escalate even further, or the | 2:13:30 | 2:13:34 | |
horrible situations we've been
talking about this morning might | 2:13:34 | 2:13:37 | |
arise. We must also look at how we
do much more upstream prevention, | 2:13:37 | 2:13:43 | |
involving mental health charities,
in particular, because their role is | 2:13:43 | 2:13:47 | |
enormously important. Heads Up in
Wales, of which I am a page on, and | 2:13:47 | 2:13:55 | |
another founded on a real tragedy,
they do it amazing work in our | 2:13:55 | 2:14:02 | |
communities, voluntarily,
charitably, but they do something | 2:14:02 | 2:14:04 | |
that should be a really important
part of a broad, deep network of | 2:14:04 | 2:14:11 | |
mental health provision, that helps
manage people through mental illness | 2:14:11 | 2:14:13 | |
at the appropriate level, and avoids
people slipping into crisis as much | 2:14:13 | 2:14:20 | |
as is possible. So too must we push
it even harder to break the taboos | 2:14:20 | 2:14:26 | |
around mental health in our
communities, because of there | 2:14:26 | 2:14:29 | |
wearing a greater acceptance of
mental health, if people were more | 2:14:29 | 2:14:32 | |
willing to be open and talk about it
and support people with mental | 2:14:32 | 2:14:36 | |
health illnesses, you could see that
fewer people would find themselves | 2:14:36 | 2:14:39 | |
in positions of crisis because they
had become isolated, the | 2:14:39 | 2:14:43 | |
vulnerability had become such an
issue that they made that big cry | 2:14:43 | 2:14:47 | |
for help or their illness escalated
to such a point. Parity of esteem is | 2:14:47 | 2:14:51 | |
not just about money, although in
this place, the debate often focuses | 2:14:51 | 2:14:56 | |
on that. Parity of esteem is about
attitudes and acceptance as well. We | 2:14:56 | 2:15:03 | |
need the mental health system that
means that people living with Milton | 2:15:03 | 2:15:09 | |
health conditions conducive with
dignity, without them being | 2:15:09 | 2:15:12 | |
unnecessarily aggravated, because
they have unreasonable waiting times | 2:15:12 | 2:15:16 | |
were mental health care, that they
can be supported by an understanding | 2:15:16 | 2:15:21 | |
and supportive community. The last
point that I want to make, because | 2:15:21 | 2:15:24 | |
I've taken up more than enough of
your time, is that mental health | 2:15:24 | 2:15:30 | |
workers do an amazing thing and so,
too, do the police that have to work | 2:15:30 | 2:15:35 | |
with those who are suffering from
mental illness. And nothing we | 2:15:35 | 2:15:39 | |
discussed today should be seen as a
criticism of what they do, and they | 2:15:39 | 2:15:44 | |
should understand that we understand
fully the extraordinarily | 2:15:44 | 2:15:48 | |
challenging circumstances in which
they work, day in day out. I | 2:15:48 | 2:15:54 | |
finished I simply thanking them for
the extraordinarily hard work that | 2:15:54 | 2:15:57 | |
they do. Like other honourable
members, may start by paying tribute | 2:15:57 | 2:16:04 | |
to the work of the honourable member
for North in bringing forward this | 2:16:04 | 2:16:10 | |
Bill. As someone who was lucky
enough to get drawn in Private | 2:16:10 | 2:16:15 | |
members Bill ballot last year, I
know that plays a part, but more | 2:16:15 | 2:16:20 | |
importantly, so does passion, and he
has shown that in talking very | 2:16:20 | 2:16:24 | |
movingly today to the Lies about his
constituent of what has motivated | 2:16:24 | 2:16:29 | |
him to take this forward today, and
I think his constituents rightly | 2:16:29 | 2:16:33 | |
will be very proud of the work he's
doing on this very important piece | 2:16:33 | 2:16:36 | |
of legislation. I welcome and
support this Bill. I know from my | 2:16:36 | 2:16:43 | |
casework and more generally that it
is something that will be welcomed | 2:16:43 | 2:16:47 | |
in my constituency and more broadly,
across the country. I think it | 2:16:47 | 2:16:51 | |
reflects very well on the house
today and our proceedings, both the | 2:16:51 | 2:16:55 | |
torn in which this debate has been
conducted, but also that on an issue | 2:16:55 | 2:17:00 | |
as important as this, honourable
members who wish to speak are having | 2:17:00 | 2:17:05 | |
the British team to do so and I
think their constituents would | 2:17:05 | 2:17:09 | |
expect no less and would expect all
of us who wish to speak to have the | 2:17:09 | 2:17:13 | |
opportunity to put on a record our
views about this important issue. As | 2:17:13 | 2:17:19 | |
the shadow minister made clear, this
is about transparency, it's about | 2:17:19 | 2:17:25 | |
accountability, it's about changing
attitudes and it's also about risk. | 2:17:25 | 2:17:31 | |
Most importantly, this Bill's
focuses on making the processes and | 2:17:31 | 2:17:36 | |
treatment of those detained in
mental health units more people - | 2:17:36 | 2:17:40 | |
centric, it is focused on them. As
honourable members have set out, and | 2:17:40 | 2:17:47 | |
I think it was my honourable friend,
the member for Richmond, who made | 2:17:47 | 2:17:53 | |
clear, the reality is that the
circumstances which can lead to | 2:17:53 | 2:17:56 | |
someone being detained in a mental
health unit could happen to anyone. | 2:17:56 | 2:17:59 | |
Mental ill-health can happen to
anyone and I think it's important we | 2:17:59 | 2:18:03 | |
remember that. We are talking about
vulnerable people or people that the | 2:18:03 | 2:18:08 | |
most vulnerable in these situations,
and as my honourable friend, the | 2:18:08 | 2:18:13 | |
member for Hartley made clear, we
are very good as a society about | 2:18:13 | 2:18:17 | |
understanding physical ill-health,
because we can see it, but we are | 2:18:17 | 2:18:21 | |
less good at understanding mental
ill-health, because it is more | 2:18:21 | 2:18:24 | |
intangible and much harder to see. I
think it was the honourable member | 2:18:24 | 2:18:30 | |
for Croydon North who said, this is
about compassion, not cruelty. At | 2:18:30 | 2:18:35 | |
times, given the natures of the
circumstances, restraint may be | 2:18:35 | 2:18:39 | |
needed at a moment of crisis, but it
must be applied in the right way, it | 2:18:39 | 2:18:44 | |
must be minimal and we must always
focus on dealing with such incidents | 2:18:44 | 2:18:49 | |
in the right way and doing what we
can to assist people in their | 2:18:49 | 2:18:55 | |
recovery. It is important that we
also highlight as honourable members | 2:18:55 | 2:18:58 | |
have done, and I think most
recently, my honourable friend, the | 2:18:58 | 2:19:02 | |
member for Wells, the the debt of
gratitude we alter all those working | 2:19:02 | 2:19:10 | |
in emergency services and those in a
mental health setting for the work | 2:19:10 | 2:19:13 | |
they do and be incredibly difficult
job they do with an amazing degree | 2:19:13 | 2:19:18 | |
of professionalism, compassion and
care. In that context, I very much | 2:19:18 | 2:19:22 | |
welcome clause five of this bill,
with its emphasis on the provision | 2:19:22 | 2:19:27 | |
of training. This is not just about
protecting and supporting those who | 2:19:27 | 2:19:31 | |
are detained and mental health
units, it's also about protecting | 2:19:31 | 2:19:34 | |
and supporting those who may have to
intervene in applying restraint. And | 2:19:34 | 2:19:40 | |
I think it was the honourable member
for Stroud who made the point | 2:19:40 | 2:19:45 | |
earlier in this debate, about the
need for training. Not only at the | 2:19:45 | 2:19:50 | |
induction stage for those workers,
but also for that to be refreshed | 2:19:50 | 2:19:54 | |
throughout their careers, and I
think that's an important point. | 2:19:54 | 2:19:59 | |
This Bill is about reducing the use
of restraint where possible, but | 2:19:59 | 2:20:05 | |
it's also about risk. Too often in
our society, be it the private | 2:20:05 | 2:20:10 | |
sector or public sector, that is an
understandable desire to eliminate | 2:20:10 | 2:20:14 | |
risk. The reality is that simply
cannot be done. But we must seek to | 2:20:14 | 2:20:18 | |
do instead is to understand and
mitigate risk and ensure that the | 2:20:18 | 2:20:25 | |
understanding drives the right
behaviours. The data that this Bill | 2:20:25 | 2:20:30 | |
will provide, the transparency
brings, the understanding of how | 2:20:30 | 2:20:33 | |
restraint operates in these
settings, all feed into that better | 2:20:33 | 2:20:38 | |
understanding of risk, which will
hopefully improve the way in which | 2:20:38 | 2:20:41 | |
we treat those detained in mental
health units. And of course, it is | 2:20:41 | 2:20:49 | |
about justice. In the hopefully few,
but nonetheless tragic | 2:20:49 | 2:20:57 | |
circumstances, where someone does
die, it is important that the | 2:20:57 | 2:21:00 | |
evidence is there, both to ensure
justice for that person, but also to | 2:21:00 | 2:21:05 | |
ensure we learn the lessons from
that incident. And finally, | 2:21:05 | 2:21:11 | |
conscious of my words about it being
important that all those who wish to | 2:21:11 | 2:21:14 | |
speak should have the opportunity,
because our constituents would | 2:21:14 | 2:21:19 | |
expect that, I turned to the final
point about changing attitudes. | 2:21:19 | 2:21:24 | |
Attitudes are changing in respect of
mental health. Every time in this | 2:21:24 | 2:21:39 | |
chamber we talk about mental health,
we help change those attitudes, we | 2:21:40 | 2:21:43 | |
help reduce any stigma attached to
mental health, and it's absolutely | 2:21:43 | 2:21:45 | |
right we continue to do so. Those
attitudes are changing in our | 2:21:45 | 2:21:47 | |
country as a whole, but there is
still a long way to go. We are on a | 2:21:47 | 2:21:51 | |
journey. This Bill is a hugely
important step on that journey and I | 2:21:51 | 2:21:53 | |
very much welcome it. Another hugely
important step will be the review of | 2:21:53 | 2:21:56 | |
the Mental Health Act, which while
maybe of its time, is certainly not | 2:21:56 | 2:22:02 | |
fit for these times, and it is right
that in that context of the debate | 2:22:02 | 2:22:06 | |
and the review around it, we look at
not only what we are discussing | 2:22:06 | 2:22:11 | |
today, but we seek to create a
mental health care system is fit the | 2:22:11 | 2:22:16 | |
21st century, of which we can all be
proud. It is a pleasure to support | 2:22:16 | 2:22:20 | |
this Bill today. May I also add my
congratulations to the member for | 2:22:20 | 2:22:27 | |
Croydon North, who is not currently
in his plays were bringing forward | 2:22:27 | 2:22:32 | |
this Bill, and for the very emotive
and in many respects heartbreaking | 2:22:32 | 2:22:36 | |
story that he shared with the house
today. This Bill is an important | 2:22:36 | 2:22:42 | |
part of the wider issue. We do need
to improve the way that the approach | 2:22:42 | 2:22:46 | |
mental health in this country. That
is without question a stigma, is | 2:22:46 | 2:22:51 | |
taboo, and I know a number of
honourable members in this house | 2:22:51 | 2:22:55 | |
today on both sides, who have played
huge roles in tackling that. One of | 2:22:55 | 2:23:00 | |
my passions in this house is baby
laws, which has a similar taboo and | 2:23:00 | 2:23:05 | |
stigma, and we don't talk about it,
is which has led to many people | 2:23:05 | 2:23:10 | |
keeping quiet, but it is talking
about these issues, raising them as | 2:23:10 | 2:23:14 | |
much as possible and allowing people
to feel open enough to talk about | 2:23:14 | 2:23:19 | |
them, that lets us start to tackle
those stigmas and taboo zone that is | 2:23:19 | 2:23:22 | |
no great place to do that than the
floor of the House of Commons | 2:23:22 | 2:23:25 | |
chamber. The Mental Health Act has
remained unchanged since it was | 2:23:25 | 2:23:31 | |
first published in 1983. Many
consider it is no longer fit for | 2:23:31 | 2:23:37 | |
purpose. As a comparison, when the
legislation was introduced, the | 2:23:37 | 2:23:42 | |
diagnostic and statistical manual of
mental disorders, known as DSN, | 2:23:42 | 2:23:53 | |
existed in its third edition. Since
then, it has undergone multiple | 2:23:53 | 2:23:59 | |
editions. Our understanding has
changed, especially over the last | 2:23:59 | 2:24:04 | |
three and a half decades. Our
legislation has not that is not good | 2:24:04 | 2:24:07 | |
enough. This Bill is important step
in ensuring that people with mental | 2:24:07 | 2:24:13 | |
health conditions are treated
appropriately. But I do want to make | 2:24:13 | 2:24:16 | |
something clear night think it is
important, that there will be | 2:24:16 | 2:24:22 | |
circumstances where restraint is
required in mental health units. It | 2:24:22 | 2:24:27 | |
is sadly inevitable. Staff in these
units do have an incredibly | 2:24:27 | 2:24:33 | |
challenging job, but we would all
agree that it should be the last | 2:24:33 | 2:24:36 | |
resort, not the first resort. I
would briefly like to pay tribute to | 2:24:36 | 2:24:44 | |
Mind, who launched a campaign in
2011 to reduce the use of restraints | 2:24:44 | 2:24:49 | |
in health care settings. They have
made fantastic progress so far. In | 2:24:49 | 2:24:55 | |
2014, the Coalition Government
published guidance in this area, | 2:24:55 | 2:24:58 | |
following investigations into abuses
at the Winterbourne review hospital | 2:24:58 | 2:25:04 | |
and reports from Mind. It found that
restrictive interventions were not | 2:25:04 | 2:25:08 | |
being used as a last resort, so the
guidance made clear that the staff | 2:25:08 | 2:25:12 | |
must only use such actions if they
represent the least restriction | 2:25:12 | 2:25:17 | |
option to meet the immediate need.
It also rightly made clear that | 2:25:17 | 2:25:23 | |
staff must not deliberately restrict
people in a way that impacts on the | 2:25:23 | 2:25:28 | |
airway, breathing or circulation,
such as face down restraint on any | 2:25:28 | 2:25:32 | |
surface, not just on the floor. In
continuing the spirit of the | 2:25:32 | 2:25:38 | |
Coalition Government, I know my
honourable friend, who's currently | 2:25:38 | 2:25:41 | |
on her phone on the other side of
the chamber, his attention I still | 2:25:41 | 2:25:45 | |
haven't to attract, I would like to
pay tribute to the honourable member | 2:25:45 | 2:25:52 | |
for North Norfolk, for the work he
did as a government minister in this | 2:25:52 | 2:25:56 | |
place. I know this is an issue that
he deeply cares about, and I know | 2:25:56 | 2:26:00 | |
he's not in the chamber at the
moment, but I certainly want to put | 2:26:00 | 2:26:06 | |
on the records, the honourable
ladies still hasn't recognise the | 2:26:06 | 2:26:10 | |
point. Nevertheless, I think it's
important it was on the wreckage, | 2:26:10 | 2:26:13 | |
because he did a huge round of work
in this area. Later in 2015, the | 2:26:13 | 2:26:20 | |
Mental Health Act 1983 of guidance
was revised and Nice updated its | 2:26:20 | 2:26:26 | |
guidance on violence and aggression.
In both cases, emphasis was put on | 2:26:26 | 2:26:30 | |
prevention and the use of restraint
was advised against. What was | 2:26:30 | 2:26:37 | |
recognised in all of this is that
the solution is not blaming staff. | 2:26:37 | 2:26:42 | |
The solution is giving staff skills
and the confidence to deal with some | 2:26:42 | 2:26:49 | |
incredibly challenging situations.
In September, I visited their Lakes | 2:26:49 | 2:26:54 | |
mental health unit in Colchester, to
see first-hand what he mental health | 2:26:54 | 2:26:58 | |
unit is like. I had a brief meeting
initially with senior managers, | 2:26:58 | 2:27:03 | |
including Sally Morris, the chief
executive of Essex partnership NHS | 2:27:03 | 2:27:09 | |
trust. | 2:27:09 | 2:27:20 | |
We discussed many issues. Restraint
was not one of the issues we | 2:27:20 | 2:27:25 | |
discussed. Following this debate and
this important bill brought forward | 2:27:25 | 2:27:32 | |
by the honourable member who is now
in his place, I will definitely be | 2:27:32 | 2:27:35 | |
asking questions about the use of
restraint in that unit. I support | 2:27:35 | 2:27:40 | |
what this bill is seeking to achieve
around training. In particular, as | 2:27:40 | 2:27:45 | |
set out in section five subsection
one. In many ways, it strikes me as | 2:27:45 | 2:27:52 | |
remarkable that front line staff
would not already be given these | 2:27:52 | 2:27:56 | |
programmes, but this is a good way
of ensuring that staff, particularly | 2:27:56 | 2:28:01 | |
new staff are aware of best practice
and guidance on the use of force. I | 2:28:01 | 2:28:06 | |
would suggest at committee stage
that they should look at whether it | 2:28:06 | 2:28:10 | |
should be wider than just induction,
so that existing members of staff | 2:28:10 | 2:28:14 | |
are also given this training. I
think it is incredibly important | 2:28:14 | 2:28:18 | |
that in any workplace environment
you are given refreshers to assure | 2:28:18 | 2:28:23 | |
that that training remains fresh and
front of mind. Another area of this | 2:28:23 | 2:28:29 | |
bill I want to touch on is the
mandating body cameras for any | 2:28:29 | 2:28:33 | |
police officer who attends a mental
health unit, and that has been | 2:28:33 | 2:28:37 | |
raised by a number of colleagues
already, but I want to focus one | 2:28:37 | 2:28:41 | |
particular area. I do think it is
important to mention from the | 2:28:41 | 2:28:45 | |
outset, that the use of body worn
cameras is ultimately a decision for | 2:28:45 | 2:28:49 | |
local Police and Crime Commissioner
's and different police forces are | 2:28:49 | 2:28:53 | |
at different stages in terms of that
process, some are just investing now | 2:28:53 | 2:28:56 | |
and others are looking at new
equipment because they have had it | 2:28:56 | 2:29:00 | |
for some time, and are ruined their
second phase of procurement for | 2:29:00 | 2:29:05 | |
these body worn cameras. But I would
also suggest that maybe section 13 | 2:29:05 | 2:29:09 | |
subsection to a which did briefly
mention in any intervention to one | 2:29:09 | 2:29:14 | |
of my honourable friends, is perhaps
a little too eager when it expects | 2:29:14 | 2:29:18 | |
officers to turn on their actual
cameras. It states at the moment : | 2:29:18 | 2:29:26 | |
the piece of is ensure that his or
her body camera is recording from | 2:29:26 | 2:29:32 | |
the sooner is reasonably practical
from after the officer receives the | 2:29:32 | 2:29:37 | |
request to attend the mental health
unit. | 2:29:37 | 2:29:39 | |
Perhaps this is something we should
discuss a committee stage. I wonder | 2:29:39 | 2:29:44 | |
if there should be recording of them
attending the mental health unit, | 2:29:44 | 2:29:48 | |
rather than the point they get the
request to attend the unit. | 2:29:48 | 2:29:54 | |
I thank the honourable member for
giving way and he is making some | 2:29:54 | 2:29:57 | |
interesting points. Would he agree
with me that the point of body worn | 2:29:57 | 2:30:00 | |
cameras is that when an officer is
on duty, when they are used, the | 2:30:00 | 2:30:05 | |
presumption should be there is only
a circumstance where they are turned | 2:30:05 | 2:30:09 | |
off, the presumption is when they
are turned on. It is only if you are | 2:30:09 | 2:30:13 | |
dealing with are vulnerable witness
who is uncomfortable talking on | 2:30:13 | 2:30:18 | |
camera that they should be switched
off Esmat the honourable member | 2:30:18 | 2:30:23 | |
makes an important point. I will
come back to that in a moment. | 2:30:23 | 2:30:27 | |
Different forces are at different
stages in the evolution of this kit. | 2:30:27 | 2:30:32 | |
They have different battery lives,
different download capabilities. | 2:30:32 | 2:30:38 | |
Some take several hours to download,
others can be done more quickly. It | 2:30:38 | 2:30:43 | |
depends where the police forces are
wrapped in terms of their payment | 2:30:43 | 2:30:47 | |
and how long they have had the
equipment for. I totally agree that | 2:30:47 | 2:30:50 | |
this equipment should be on and the
new formations of this equipment, | 2:30:50 | 2:30:55 | |
that is standard and should be
standard practice. | 2:30:55 | 2:30:58 | |
I thank my honourable friend for
that. He has mentioned precisely | 2:30:58 | 2:31:03 | |
what I was going to raise, the fact
that a battery life may have been | 2:31:03 | 2:31:08 | |
expired or there may have been a
software glitch with these cameras, | 2:31:08 | 2:31:13 | |
and maybe that clause does need
tweaking at committee stage, and I | 2:31:13 | 2:31:18 | |
wonder if the honourable gentleman,
the member for Croydon North will | 2:31:18 | 2:31:22 | |
look at that very carefully, if this
bill reaches the committee stage? I | 2:31:22 | 2:31:29 | |
thank my honourable friend for that
intervention and she raises a very | 2:31:29 | 2:31:32 | |
good point. I think we are all
largely in agreement about the use | 2:31:32 | 2:31:35 | |
of body worn cameras. I think we'll
think they are an excellent piece of | 2:31:35 | 2:31:40 | |
evolution in policing, in terms of
protecting the public and indeed the | 2:31:40 | 2:31:43 | |
police officer. I hope this is a
point the honourable member can take | 2:31:43 | 2:31:49 | |
away at committee stage which I hope
we will get to, and actually work | 2:31:49 | 2:31:51 | |
with senior police officers who are
working on the ground who use this | 2:31:51 | 2:31:55 | |
equipment to work out how exactly
the legislation should be worded, to | 2:31:55 | 2:31:59 | |
ensure that we get it exactly right
on this point. I do want to mention | 2:31:59 | 2:32:05 | |
how, in passing, although I may
focus a little bit on it, is Essex | 2:32:05 | 2:32:09 | |
Police, and how it is working in
partnership with the NHS in a | 2:32:09 | 2:32:15 | |
countywide street triage programme,
in order to provide the best | 2:32:15 | 2:32:18 | |
possible care to people with mental
health issues. I think this is a | 2:32:18 | 2:32:23 | |
trailblazing idea and I think it is
working brilliantly. I will come on | 2:32:23 | 2:32:27 | |
to mention a few of the stats on it.
There are four street triage cars, | 2:32:27 | 2:32:33 | |
staffed by trained officers and
mental health professionals from the | 2:32:33 | 2:32:38 | |
south Essex NHS partnership trust,
and the North Essex University | 2:32:38 | 2:32:43 | |
foundation NHS Trust, and they are
available to Essex Police operating | 2:32:43 | 2:32:47 | |
seven days a week between 10am and
2am. There are four cars based in | 2:32:47 | 2:32:54 | |
Harlow, Colchester, Basildon and
Rochford, where officers and mental | 2:32:54 | 2:32:58 | |
health professionals attend
incidents across the county, if an | 2:32:58 | 2:33:02 | |
individual is thought to be in
mental health crisis, and in urgent | 2:33:02 | 2:33:06 | |
need of support or an intervention.
The person is then assessed by the | 2:33:06 | 2:33:11 | |
officers and the mental health
professional who then gets them the | 2:33:11 | 2:33:15 | |
assistance they need, if indeed it
is appropriate to do so. This | 2:33:15 | 2:33:19 | |
follows the success of what was a
four-month pilot which ran for three | 2:33:19 | 2:33:22 | |
nights a week. During this time, 269
individuals were assessed, of which | 2:33:22 | 2:33:29 | |
11 were required to be detained
under the Mental Health Act. Others | 2:33:29 | 2:33:33 | |
were referred to appropriate
services and given guidance from the | 2:33:33 | 2:33:38 | |
mental health services who were
present. This is an initiative of | 2:33:38 | 2:33:42 | |
the Police and Crime Commissioner.
This scheme has proved instrumental | 2:33:42 | 2:33:47 | |
in reducing the number of people who
have been detained by police under | 2:33:47 | 2:33:52 | |
section 136 of the Mental Health Act
unnecessarily across Essex. That has | 2:33:52 | 2:33:58 | |
cut it by nearly a quarter. It has
also ensured that those with that | 2:33:58 | 2:34:03 | |
acute vulnerability are given the
care and support that they need. In | 2:34:03 | 2:34:10 | |
summary, Madam Deputy Speaker, I
very much welcome this bill. It | 2:34:10 | 2:34:14 | |
insures that staff working in mental
health units are given training to | 2:34:14 | 2:34:18 | |
insure that they can give patients
the best possible level of care. | 2:34:18 | 2:34:24 | |
Training, I believe, having met
staff at the Lakes mental health | 2:34:24 | 2:34:29 | |
unit, that they want to receive.
While there are a couple of areas | 2:34:29 | 2:34:33 | |
that I think need tweaking and I
would be very happy to work with the | 2:34:33 | 2:34:37 | |
honourable member at committee
stage, there is nothing that I | 2:34:37 | 2:34:42 | |
believe should stop this bill
passing second reading and I will be | 2:34:42 | 2:34:47 | |
supporting the bill.
Helen Whately. Thank you, Madam | 2:34:47 | 2:34:53 | |
Deputy Speaker. May I congratulate
the honourable member for Croydon | 2:34:53 | 2:34:57 | |
North for introducing this bill, and
I welcome the opportunity to speak | 2:34:57 | 2:35:02 | |
on this important subject, and I'm
pleased the Government is supporting | 2:35:02 | 2:35:05 | |
this bill. The more we speak about
mental health, privately, publicly | 2:35:05 | 2:35:10 | |
and especially here in Parliament,
the more we wear away the stigma | 2:35:10 | 2:35:15 | |
that surrounds it. As chair of the
all-party Parliamentary group for | 2:35:15 | 2:35:20 | |
mental health, I often speak to
service users, professionals and | 2:35:20 | 2:35:26 | |
campaigners from organisations like
Rethink mental illness, Mind and the | 2:35:26 | 2:35:31 | |
Royal College of psychiatry. They
tell me there has never been a | 2:35:31 | 2:35:33 | |
better time to be a mental health
campaigner. We have the five-year | 2:35:33 | 2:35:38 | |
forward view for mental health,
truly compensate and widely | 2:35:38 | 2:35:42 | |
supported strategy to improve mental
health care in this country. We have | 2:35:42 | 2:35:47 | |
a Prime Minister who is committed to
fighting the injustice of inadequate | 2:35:47 | 2:35:51 | |
treatment and we have a government
which is spending record amounts on | 2:35:51 | 2:35:55 | |
improving mental health care. I will
happily give way. I thank the | 2:35:55 | 2:36:00 | |
honourable member kindly for giving
way. I notice she highlights the | 2:36:00 | 2:36:05 | |
commitment made by this government,
but that she shared the concern that | 2:36:05 | 2:36:09 | |
I have that commitments and money
are not reaching the front line and | 2:36:09 | 2:36:13 | |
there is a wealth of evidence which
shows that many cities across the | 2:36:13 | 2:36:18 | |
country are diverging funds intended
for mental health? I thank the | 2:36:18 | 2:36:24 | |
honourable member for her
intervention and I acknowledge the | 2:36:24 | 2:36:27 | |
work she is doing in campaigning for
mental health. I have looked into | 2:36:27 | 2:36:33 | |
the question of finance is getting
to the front line which she raises. | 2:36:33 | 2:36:36 | |
The answer is that 85% of CCGs
across the country are spending at | 2:36:36 | 2:36:42 | |
the level they should be spending at
mental health, so the majority are | 2:36:42 | 2:36:48 | |
meeting their obligation of
increasing their spend on mental | 2:36:48 | 2:36:50 | |
health. Yes, there is a minority who
are not, and they are rightly being | 2:36:50 | 2:36:55 | |
looked at and what is going on there
and why are they diverting money | 2:36:55 | 2:36:59 | |
away from an health, but the
majority are doing so. The rate of | 2:36:59 | 2:37:03 | |
spending on mental health is going
up faster than the rate of the extra | 2:37:03 | 2:37:06 | |
money going to CCGs, so the rate of
money is going up faster than the | 2:37:06 | 2:37:13 | |
increase in spending which is the
right thing. It is all about | 2:37:13 | 2:37:17 | |
improving the status of mental
health in our health care system | 2:37:17 | 2:37:21 | |
which I know is an ambition she
shares, as do I. All of us here have | 2:37:21 | 2:37:26 | |
been moved by the awful story of
Shelley Lewis who died after being | 2:37:26 | 2:37:31 | |
restrained facedown and we know, and
as we have heard today, this was not | 2:37:31 | 2:37:37 | |
an isolated case. And these awful
cases are happening despite the fact | 2:37:37 | 2:37:45 | |
that there are very strong
guidelines, even at the moment on | 2:37:45 | 2:37:48 | |
the use of restraint. The Mental
Health Act code of practice straight | 2:37:48 | 2:37:53 | |
restrictive practice should only be
used when there is a possibility | 2:37:53 | 2:37:56 | |
real harm to the person or other
people. There are guidelines that | 2:37:56 | 2:38:02 | |
staff should be trained to avoid
restrictive practices on young | 2:38:02 | 2:38:07 | |
people and despite that, instances
of restraint have been going up. | 2:38:07 | 2:38:12 | |
Despite that, 17% of girls and 13%
of boys who were admitted to CAMS. | 2:38:12 | 2:38:27 | |
Despite that, restraint is going up,
restraint should be a last resort, | 2:38:27 | 2:38:33 | |
restraint does enormous damage at
times, both physical and | 2:38:33 | 2:38:38 | |
psychological. And the implications
are for those applying the | 2:38:38 | 2:38:44 | |
restraint. This bill is badly needed
and I welcome it. This... I will | 2:38:44 | 2:38:56 | |
give way. Does she like I shared
concern about not only the number of | 2:38:56 | 2:39:05 | |
times people are being restrained
but also the number of times an | 2:39:05 | 2:39:08 | |
individual is being restrained. We
heard across the summer the case of | 2:39:08 | 2:39:13 | |
girl X. Sir James Mumby wrote about
this girl who was restrained 117 | 2:39:13 | 2:39:22 | |
times because there was not an
adequate place which was fit for her | 2:39:22 | 2:39:26 | |
care? Does she share the concern
that this is horrifying in 2017? It | 2:39:26 | 2:39:32 | |
is a shocking example that she
raises so yes, it needs to be looked | 2:39:32 | 2:39:38 | |
at especially when individuals are
having to be restrained multiple | 2:39:38 | 2:39:41 | |
times. I should provide some balance
and say that I recognise there are | 2:39:41 | 2:39:48 | |
times when restraint is necessary.
And that has been made quite clear | 2:39:48 | 2:39:53 | |
by the people I have talked to, in
providing mental health care. But | 2:39:53 | 2:39:57 | |
they critical of thing that staff
who are carrying out restraint are | 2:39:57 | 2:40:02 | |
properly trained in doing so, as
section five of this ill addresses. | 2:40:02 | 2:40:09 | |
And being properly trained while
doing so, making sure that patients | 2:40:09 | 2:40:17 | |
do not suffer trauma and injury and
also to make sure staff themselves | 2:40:17 | 2:40:20 | |
don't face issues when something has
gone wrong which is a bad thing when | 2:40:20 | 2:40:28 | |
staff are trying to provide mental
health care and it is a tough sector | 2:40:28 | 2:40:32 | |
to work in, very rewarding but also
very challenging work and I join | 2:40:32 | 2:40:37 | |
others in thanking and appreciating
the work that those in the mental | 2:40:37 | 2:40:42 | |
health workforce do. Appropriate
training and restraint is also very | 2:40:42 | 2:40:46 | |
important. At present, I have told
that no matter what their background | 2:40:46 | 2:40:55 | |
and experience, anyone can offer
their services as a restraint | 2:40:55 | 2:40:59 | |
trainer. This seems extremely
strange that there is not a standard | 2:40:59 | 2:41:04 | |
required of the trainers who train
people in restraint measures and | 2:41:04 | 2:41:07 | |
some sort of accreditation is surely
required to make sure the training | 2:41:07 | 2:41:12 | |
is of the standard that it should
be? I find that quite astounding. | 2:41:12 | 2:41:16 | |
That definitely needs to be looked
into. Also getting restraint right | 2:41:16 | 2:41:21 | |
and making sure the use of restraint
techniques follows medical evidence. | 2:41:21 | 2:41:25 | |
I want to put on record here, on the
one hand we have the mental health | 2:41:25 | 2:41:32 | |
code of practice which means they
should be no facedown restraint due | 2:41:32 | 2:41:36 | |
to restricted breathing, but the
Royal College of Psychiatrists says | 2:41:36 | 2:41:40 | |
the current evidence does not
support one type of restraint over | 2:41:40 | 2:41:44 | |
the other. This is clearly an
incredibly difficult area to talk | 2:41:44 | 2:41:48 | |
about, but overall what does need to
be done is to make sure that when | 2:41:48 | 2:41:52 | |
restraint is used, the least harmful
and least dangerous uses of | 2:41:52 | 2:41:56 | |
restraint should be used. | 2:41:56 | 2:42:04 | |
What is certainly true is that
overall, the use of restraint is too | 2:42:04 | 2:42:08 | |
high across the system. The level of
difference between units, means the | 2:42:08 | 2:42:14 | |
level of restraint is not always
necessary. A report picks up this | 2:42:14 | 2:42:24 | |
point, which says, we are concerned
about the great variation across the | 2:42:24 | 2:42:29 | |
country and how often staff
physically restrain patients whose | 2:42:29 | 2:42:33 | |
behaviour they find challenging.
This wide variation, even between | 2:42:33 | 2:42:38 | |
words, which admit the same patient
group. When similar patients are | 2:42:38 | 2:42:43 | |
being admitted, but different
treatment is happening in different | 2:42:43 | 2:42:46 | |
parts of the country, that indicates
that something is going wrong, and | 2:42:46 | 2:42:50 | |
those that carry out more restraint
should surely work out how they can | 2:42:50 | 2:42:54 | |
emulate those which managed to carry
out most restraint. The CTC also | 2:42:54 | 2:43:00 | |
noted that those wards with the law
restraint level have staff trained | 2:43:00 | 2:43:05 | |
in the specialist skills required to
anticipate and de-escalate | 2:43:05 | 2:43:11 | |
situations which might lead to self
harm. That indicates that training | 2:43:11 | 2:43:14 | |
is part of the key to reducing this
worrying radiation. Moving on to the | 2:43:14 | 2:43:22 | |
point that this Bill doesn't involve
extra monitoring, and awful, but as | 2:43:22 | 2:43:26 | |
a resistance to extra monitoring
amid concern about box ticking and | 2:43:26 | 2:43:32 | |
form filling and all sorts of
things. But actually, professionals | 2:43:32 | 2:43:35 | |
are supporting the extra monitoring
in this case. The Royal College of | 2:43:35 | 2:43:40 | |
psychiatrists are backing this spill
in the recognise and read need for | 2:43:40 | 2:43:47 | |
the right tractors is to reduce the
use of restraint in mental health | 2:43:47 | 2:43:50 | |
units. They have gone further and
signed a memorandum of understanding | 2:43:50 | 2:43:55 | |
on the use of restraint in mental
health and learning disability | 2:43:55 | 2:44:00 | |
settings. The agenda is already
moving on and this Bill is helping | 2:44:00 | 2:44:04 | |
focus minds on what can be done
before it becomes law, to increase | 2:44:04 | 2:44:11 | |
the use of restraint. As I mentioned
earlier, I want to reiterate, I do | 2:44:11 | 2:44:15 | |
think we need also to look at
special schools and the use of | 2:44:15 | 2:44:20 | |
restraint. There was a case of some
autistic children in my | 2:44:20 | 2:44:24 | |
constituency, who were restrained in
a really shocking way, and nobody | 2:44:24 | 2:44:26 | |
has ever got to the bottom of what
happened in that situation. With my | 2:44:26 | 2:44:36 | |
honourable friend, the member for
Berwick-upon-Tweed, who suggested we | 2:44:36 | 2:44:40 | |
should work together on taking some
action on this problem as well. As | 2:44:40 | 2:44:45 | |
members now, and those of us who are
actively campaigning on mental | 2:44:45 | 2:44:49 | |
health, there is a need for reform
of the Mental Health Act coming our | 2:44:49 | 2:44:55 | |
way, and that is very, very welcome
and much needed. For instance, to | 2:44:55 | 2:45:02 | |
tackle the rise in sectioning and to
bring mental health legislation up | 2:45:02 | 2:45:07 | |
to date. That is a piece of work
that might have looked into this | 2:45:07 | 2:45:11 | |
point about restraint, but it's a
very large piece of work and so is | 2:45:11 | 2:45:16 | |
absolutely right that in the
meantime, this Bill is coming for a | 2:45:16 | 2:45:22 | |
double take action quickly, I hope,
on improving the use of restraint in | 2:45:22 | 2:45:28 | |
these difficult circumstances. Once
again, I congratulate the honourable | 2:45:28 | 2:45:33 | |
member for bringing the Bill and I
look forward to supporting it. I'm | 2:45:33 | 2:45:42 | |
very conscious that it can sometimes
be a blight on a political career, | 2:45:42 | 2:45:47 | |
to have someone from the other side
of the chamber lavish praise upon | 2:45:47 | 2:45:51 | |
you, so I apologise in advance to
the honourable gentleman, the member | 2:45:51 | 2:45:56 | |
of Croydon North, because what I'm
about to say could hang like a | 2:45:56 | 2:46:01 | |
political albatross around his neck
for some time. But I hope he | 2:46:01 | 2:46:07 | |
recognises that, even if that is the
gays, and I suspect it would be, | 2:46:07 | 2:46:12 | |
that the work he is doing in
bringing forward this Bill will more | 2:46:12 | 2:46:16 | |
than offset any detriment it might
have. Because I think and I suspect | 2:46:16 | 2:46:21 | |
that when this Bill makes its way
through the house and is enacted, | 2:46:21 | 2:46:26 | |
that people will look back at a
tipping point moment. I think that | 2:46:26 | 2:46:32 | |
is exemplified by the first few
names on the list of supporters, and | 2:46:32 | 2:46:37 | |
I think it shows great credit to him
as an individual and as a | 2:46:37 | 2:46:42 | |
parliamentarian, that he is able to
get support from all parties | 2:46:42 | 2:46:49 | |
representing England, from all sides
of the house in support of this | 2:46:49 | 2:46:53 | |
Bill. And also in the way the Bill
is drafted, clearly in such a way to | 2:46:53 | 2:46:58 | |
make it as easy as possible to gain
cross-party support and to give this | 2:46:58 | 2:47:05 | |
Build the best chance to be enacted.
And in a time globally when we see | 2:47:05 | 2:47:11 | |
ultra-partisan politics, where we
see things put forward specifically | 2:47:11 | 2:47:15 | |
to create division and to play games
using politics, it is refreshing to | 2:47:15 | 2:47:20 | |
see a Bill which is quite clearly
designed to improve and in many | 2:47:20 | 2:47:26 | |
instances, save lives, and I thank
him for that. There are a number of | 2:47:26 | 2:47:37 | |
points that I wish to make. In my
constituency or near my | 2:47:37 | 2:47:46 | |
constituency, I have a centre raced
in Chelmsford that serves my | 2:47:46 | 2:47:51 | |
constituents. I regularly have
meetings with the health trust, the | 2:47:51 | 2:47:57 | |
Essex partnership University
foundation NHS trust, and the | 2:47:57 | 2:48:01 | |
management thereof, and it is quite
clear that the management of that | 2:48:01 | 2:48:06 | |
mental health centre in Chelmsford
are passionate about protecting | 2:48:06 | 2:48:10 | |
their service users, there are
passionate about improving the | 2:48:10 | 2:48:14 | |
mental health of the people under
their responsibility. I have close | 2:48:14 | 2:48:19 | |
working relationships with the Essex
Constabulary, the police, who are | 2:48:19 | 2:48:26 | |
also as passionate about protecting
people. And before I make other | 2:48:26 | 2:48:31 | |
points, echoing the words of my
honourable and gallant friend, the | 2:48:31 | 2:48:38 | |
member for Wells, I want to echo the
flanks that he put on record to both | 2:48:38 | 2:48:49 | |
the medical professionals, the
police professionals and others, who | 2:48:49 | 2:48:53 | |
worked so very hard trying to
protect people who have either acute | 2:48:53 | 2:48:58 | |
or chronic mental-health episodes.
And I wouldn't want any of the | 2:48:58 | 2:49:03 | |
conversation about deaths and
restraint mental health units and by | 2:49:03 | 2:49:08 | |
police officers and others to be in
any way seen as an implicit | 2:49:08 | 2:49:14 | |
criticism of them. They do
incredibly important work, often in | 2:49:14 | 2:49:19 | |
the most difficult and challenging
circumstances. I am happy to give | 2:49:19 | 2:49:25 | |
way. It's a question to my
honourable friend, he has close | 2:49:25 | 2:49:33 | |
links with the police and with
medical professionals. Do they use | 2:49:33 | 2:49:39 | |
the same approach to restraining
people? I would have thought the | 2:49:39 | 2:49:46 | |
police might be more vicious, not
vicious, but more hard than perhaps | 2:49:46 | 2:49:53 | |
nurses would be. But do they use the
same techniques are just apply | 2:49:53 | 2:49:57 | |
different sections of the
techniques? The simple truth of the | 2:49:57 | 2:50:05 | |
matter is, in my experience, and I
only really have detailed expedience | 2:50:05 | 2:50:09 | |
of medical and policing practices in
London, from my time on the | 2:50:09 | 2:50:15 | |
Metropolitan police authority and
now as a rapid sensitive of | 2:50:15 | 2:50:20 | |
Braintree, the local mental health
trust. I can't talk about the | 2:50:20 | 2:50:23 | |
universality of this, but I think
without a shadow of a doubt, the | 2:50:23 | 2:50:26 | |
message I'm picking up is that the
is acute radiation across and within | 2:50:26 | 2:50:31 | |
constabularies and trusts, and I
think the really important part of | 2:50:31 | 2:50:36 | |
this, which was touched on by my
honourable friend, the member for | 2:50:36 | 2:50:42 | |
Faversham, but actually, one of the
most significant sections in this | 2:50:42 | 2:50:47 | |
Bill is the section two, which is on
accountability. I am one of those in | 2:50:47 | 2:50:52 | |
rough and grumpy old Tories, who
instinctively, at this point the | 2:50:52 | 2:50:59 | |
house is meant to join in a chorus
of, you are not that old. Now one | 2:50:59 | 2:51:06 | |
cried, you are not that grumpy. But
this section is incredibly | 2:51:06 | 2:51:11 | |
important. I am a rough and grumpy
old Tory and my instinct is to take | 2:51:11 | 2:51:16 | |
away as much red tape and
administrative burden is possible, | 2:51:16 | 2:51:21 | |
because as my honourable friend the
member for Faversham highlights, | 2:51:21 | 2:51:25 | |
this modest administrative burden is
actually welcomed by the profession. | 2:51:25 | 2:51:30 | |
There's an old saying in management
consultancy, if you want to change | 2:51:30 | 2:51:38 | |
something, measure it. And I think
it's very important that the | 2:51:38 | 2:51:45 | |
registration of the use of force,
whenever that is applied, is really | 2:51:45 | 2:51:50 | |
important. It will do two things, it
will cause that moment of reflection | 2:51:50 | 2:51:57 | |
before the use of force is applied.
Because of some now is that they are | 2:51:57 | 2:52:02 | |
going to have to justify that, it
will just cause that small moment of | 2:52:02 | 2:52:06 | |
pause. And if in that moment of
pause, the recognition happens at | 2:52:06 | 2:52:12 | |
the use of force is not appropriate,
and that is inevitably a good thing, | 2:52:12 | 2:52:17 | |
but perhaps more importantly, if the
decision is made that forces the | 2:52:17 | 2:52:24 | |
appropriate action, then what we
will have through the various | 2:52:24 | 2:52:27 | |
clauses around this will be a
register of all the times, and of | 2:52:27 | 2:52:33 | |
course I have completely referenced
the wrong section, I mean section | 2:52:33 | 2:52:37 | |
seven, apologies. People have is a
record of the times force has been | 2:52:37 | 2:52:44 | |
used, including the times when that
force does not then go on to injury | 2:52:44 | 2:52:51 | |
or in the most tragic cases, death.
And that enables us to get an | 2:52:51 | 2:52:57 | |
accurate understanding of how many
times use of force as unfortunately | 2:52:57 | 2:53:01 | |
to injury and fatality. And I think
that's very, very important, because | 2:53:01 | 2:53:08 | |
I think that will remind us of the
difficulty that many professionals | 2:53:08 | 2:53:12 | |
have in this case. For the very
generous comments he made earlier. | 2:53:12 | 2:53:21 | |
Just to be clear, it's not my
intention that this Bill should | 2:53:21 | 2:53:24 | |
impose any additional administrative
burden at all. Institutions already | 2:53:24 | 2:53:28 | |
collect data on the use of force,
they just don't collect it in the | 2:53:28 | 2:53:31 | |
same week, so you can embed it. It
would standardise what goes on | 2:53:31 | 2:53:36 | |
rather than imposing a new burden,
that allows greater scrutiny of what | 2:53:36 | 2:53:39 | |
is happening. That is a very fair
and balanced intervention. I was | 2:53:39 | 2:53:47 | |
going to go on, honestly, Imran
extensions, to say, looking through | 2:53:47 | 2:53:51 | |
the list of things, it is a list of
things, which if not already | 2:53:51 | 2:53:57 | |
collected, really should be
collected. If what we have through | 2:53:57 | 2:54:03 | |
this bill is a standardisation, so
that we can see the differentials | 2:54:03 | 2:54:09 | |
between forces and trusts, that is
no bad thing. That takes me on to | 2:54:09 | 2:54:13 | |
the point that I will conclude on,
which is perhaps one of the most | 2:54:13 | 2:54:21 | |
difficult and contentious points. It
goes to the heart of my opening | 2:54:21 | 2:54:25 | |
remarks about the impact that this
bill could have on British society, | 2:54:25 | 2:54:29 | |
because without a shadow of a doubt,
we know that there have been | 2:54:29 | 2:54:34 | |
examples of a huge community
friction, of civil disorder and | 2:54:34 | 2:54:40 | |
further injury and loss of life,
which have been caused when families | 2:54:40 | 2:54:47 | |
and friends of families and wider
communities feel that the use of | 2:54:47 | 2:54:51 | |
force has led to an unnecessary
death, and that is particularly | 2:54:51 | 2:54:56 | |
acute, and I'll be as cautious as I
can with the words I use, | 2:54:56 | 2:55:02 | |
particularly in Britain's black
communities. This huge | 2:55:02 | 2:55:07 | |
disproportionality, it cannot
possibly be explained just by | 2:55:07 | 2:55:10 | |
chance, between deaths in custody
and injury of people suffering | 2:55:10 | 2:55:14 | |
mental health episodes, between the
black community in Britain and the | 2:55:14 | 2:55:17 | |
rest of the communities in Britain,
has got to be addressed. I know | 2:55:17 | 2:55:22 | |
there is no single actor Bill that
can solve that. It has been long in | 2:55:22 | 2:55:27 | |
the making and I suggest will take a
long time to resolve, but I do think | 2:55:27 | 2:55:31 | |
this bill can be a big step in the
right direction. It reduces the | 2:55:31 | 2:55:39 | |
incidence of serious injury or
fatality of people suffering mental | 2:55:39 | 2:55:43 | |
health episodes. That will have a
knock-on effect to reduce some of | 2:55:43 | 2:55:48 | |
that community friction, reduce some
of the disorder we have seen in the | 2:55:48 | 2:55:51 | |
past. If, and unfortunately I
suspect there will be future cases | 2:55:51 | 2:55:58 | |
where a black person, a black man is
detained and dies after contact with | 2:55:58 | 2:56:02 | |
the police, if it can be shown, if
it can be evidenced that in all | 2:56:02 | 2:56:10 | |
instances, force is applied
modestly, minimally, only when | 2:56:10 | 2:56:17 | |
absolutely necessary, that might
actually help defuse some attention, | 2:56:17 | 2:56:23 | |
which have led in the past further
difficulties in conclusion, I do | 2:56:23 | 2:56:29 | |
want to thank the honourable
gentleman, the member for Croydon | 2:56:29 | 2:56:33 | |
North, and the other honourable
members from across the house who | 2:56:33 | 2:56:36 | |
have supported this Bill, for
putting a Bill forward to this | 2:56:36 | 2:56:40 | |
place, which it makes it easy for
those of us who want to see | 2:56:40 | 2:56:45 | |
improvement in mental health and
community cohesion, to support it. I | 2:56:45 | 2:56:48 | |
commend it to the house. | 2:56:48 | 2:56:51 | |
Like other honourable members, I
would like to start by | 2:56:57 | 2:57:03 | |
congratulating the honourable
gentleman from Croydon North for | 2:57:03 | 2:57:05 | |
bringing forward such an important
bill. I know from my own experience | 2:57:05 | 2:57:10 | |
two years ago, when I was drawn in
the Private Member's Bill ballot, it | 2:57:10 | 2:57:15 | |
can feel like a bit of a mixed
blessing. There are a few days | 2:57:15 | 2:57:19 | |
leading up to publish your bill,
where we are probably the most | 2:57:19 | 2:57:25 | |
popular members of Parliament. And
telephone lines and e-mail inboxes | 2:57:25 | 2:57:30 | |
are rarely idle. But of course, once
the simple step of presenting a bill | 2:57:30 | 2:57:41 | |
is done, then the really hard work
begins. Not only producing the bill, | 2:57:41 | 2:57:46 | |
the explanatory notes and starting
to build the consensus which allows | 2:57:46 | 2:57:50 | |
the bill to have a reasonable chance
of progressing into legislation. The | 2:57:50 | 2:57:54 | |
honourable gentleman has done that
at exceptional in well to this point | 2:57:54 | 2:57:58 | |
and I know that he will be
proceeding as he has begun. I would | 2:57:58 | 2:58:04 | |
also like, I think those
constituents in Dudley South in | 2:58:04 | 2:58:07 | |
particular, some who have contacted
me with their own experiences, but | 2:58:07 | 2:58:13 | |
others with their own views of the
current use of force around mental | 2:58:13 | 2:58:19 | |
health units, and West Midlands
Police and the range of | 2:58:19 | 2:58:23 | |
organisations with an interest in
mental health policy who have | 2:58:23 | 2:58:29 | |
briefed us all and actually shed new
light on the scale and the nature of | 2:58:29 | 2:58:40 | |
the problems that currently exist
within the system. But I think in | 2:58:40 | 2:58:49 | |
recent years, mental health has come
to the fore in terms of public | 2:58:49 | 2:58:54 | |
policy, and much of this is due to
the outstanding work done by a | 2:58:54 | 2:59:00 | |
number of honourable and right
honourable member 's who have a real | 2:59:00 | 2:59:04 | |
passion for improving the way that
mental health is treated and | 2:59:04 | 2:59:10 | |
ensuring that parity of esteem is
not only a catchphrase, but actually | 2:59:10 | 2:59:17 | |
reflects the way in which mental
health is treated, not only within | 2:59:17 | 2:59:22 | |
the mental health service but also
across society more widely, in | 2:59:22 | 2:59:27 | |
particular the excellent work done
by the member for Halesowen when he | 2:59:27 | 2:59:33 | |
chaired the all-party group on
mental health, but also the | 2:59:33 | 2:59:36 | |
Secretary of State for Health, my
right honourable friend the member | 2:59:36 | 2:59:41 | |
for North East Bedfordshire, and of
course the right honourable member | 2:59:41 | 2:59:48 | |
for North Norfolk when they were
ministers responsible for mental | 2:59:48 | 2:59:51 | |
health. The changes in the
guidelines, and the ways sections | 2:59:51 | 2:59:58 | |
135 to 136 of the Mental Health Act
and with the new provisions that | 2:59:58 | 3:00:04 | |
will be brought in through the
police and crime act that gained | 3:00:04 | 3:00:08 | |
Royal assent earlier this year, the
political consensus that there is a | 3:00:08 | 3:00:16 | |
need to do more is being matched
with real progress in both policy | 3:00:16 | 3:00:21 | |
and legislation. So I think all of
us welcomed the prominent place that | 3:00:21 | 3:00:30 | |
mental health reform actually has,
not only in the Conservative | 3:00:30 | 3:00:35 | |
manifesto ahead of the general
election, but was then reflected in | 3:00:35 | 3:00:39 | |
the Queen's speech, and in the Prime
Minister and announcing that the | 3:00:39 | 3:00:45 | |
Government would begin a
comprehensive review of the Mental | 3:00:45 | 3:00:47 | |
Health Act. Public servants working
in the police, the NHS and the | 3:00:47 | 3:00:55 | |
justice system are often at the
front line dealing with people who | 3:00:55 | 3:01:01 | |
have mental and particularly those
who are being affected by acute | 3:01:01 | 3:01:09 | |
episodes of mental ill health. And
my honourable friend, the member for | 3:01:09 | 3:01:19 | |
Berwick-upon-Tweed I think was right
in questioning why we always talk | 3:01:19 | 3:01:24 | |
about mental health to mean mental
illness, but I think there is also | 3:01:24 | 3:01:28 | |
an important role for mental health
in terms of mental wellness, and | 3:01:28 | 3:01:33 | |
considering how we support, develop
and improve people's positive mental | 3:01:33 | 3:01:36 | |
health. But within our public policy
framework, a lot of the changes that | 3:01:36 | 3:01:45 | |
have happened in recent years, are
really being driven by innovation | 3:01:45 | 3:01:51 | |
within our public services, and I
think in particular of the excellent | 3:01:51 | 3:01:55 | |
work done by Inspector Michael Brown
who blogs as mental health, | 3:01:55 | 3:02:02 | |
previously of West Midlands Police,
I think he is now working for the | 3:02:02 | 3:02:05 | |
Chief Constable in this palace
bullies. It was largely because of | 3:02:05 | 3:02:10 | |
his work that I think the need for
his work -- that the need for | 3:02:10 | 3:02:20 | |
sections 135 to 136 came to public
awareness of the agenda. -- he is | 3:02:20 | 3:02:30 | |
now working for Dyfed-Powys Police.
Although the way people are treated | 3:02:30 | 3:02:42 | |
within the police and Kringle
justice system, although that is | 3:02:42 | 3:02:48 | |
35-year-old legislation, it is
barely different to equivalent | 3:02:48 | 3:02:52 | |
measures which were in the 1959
Mental Health Act. 60 years ago | 3:02:52 | 3:02:58 | |
there were still a number of silence
in Britain. The whole approach to | 3:02:58 | 3:03:03 | |
mental health was completely
different from today. -- a number of | 3:03:03 | 3:03:07 | |
asylums. Thankfully, we do not have
asylums. We are making huge efforts | 3:03:07 | 3:03:13 | |
to treat people within the
community. We need to make sure that | 3:03:13 | 3:03:18 | |
the legislative frameworks which
were designed for a completely | 3:03:18 | 3:03:21 | |
different society, as well as a
completely different outlook and | 3:03:21 | 3:03:26 | |
approach to mental health care, that
public policy and legislation does | 3:03:26 | 3:03:31 | |
adapt, and I think this bill is a
very important part to play in | 3:03:31 | 3:03:40 | |
changing the legislative framework.
In my own area, West Midlands Police | 3:03:40 | 3:03:49 | |
force have made substantial progress
in the way that they deal with | 3:03:49 | 3:03:53 | |
people suffering from mental
illness. The office of the West | 3:03:53 | 3:03:59 | |
Midlands Police and crime
commission, together with the West | 3:03:59 | 3:04:02 | |
Midlands combined authority provided
an update. This was really a summary | 3:04:02 | 3:04:10 | |
of the innovation they have done
particularly with the model of | 3:04:10 | 3:04:16 | |
mental health triage that has been
operating for the last few years. We | 3:04:16 | 3:04:21 | |
have got a successful model which
has been rolled out now across the | 3:04:21 | 3:04:25 | |
force for mental health triage
across the Black Country, Birmingham | 3:04:25 | 3:04:28 | |
and Solihull, and the model relies
on the use of an ambulance vehicle | 3:04:28 | 3:04:34 | |
with a mental health nurse and a
paramedic to be available between | 3:04:34 | 3:04:37 | |
ten and up in the morning and two
o'clock the following morning, to | 3:04:37 | 3:04:41 | |
insure that when there is a call-out
where it is thought that there could | 3:04:41 | 3:04:50 | |
be mental health issues to consider,
that there is an appropriate health | 3:04:50 | 3:04:56 | |
response and health assessment,
alongside and as part of the | 3:04:56 | 3:04:59 | |
police's own response. I had the
privilege shortly before I was | 3:04:59 | 3:05:06 | |
elected to Parliament, of joining a
triage team on a call-out in | 3:05:06 | 3:05:11 | |
Birmingham and had seen how it
worked, the difference it made, | 3:05:11 | 3:05:15 | |
compared to the old model of
deploying police officers and more | 3:05:15 | 3:05:19 | |
often than not, somebody who was
suffering from a serious episode of | 3:05:19 | 3:05:27 | |
mental ill-health ending up in a
police cell or other custodial | 3:05:27 | 3:05:32 | |
setting. An example of the way the
is that when a report was received | 3:05:32 | 3:05:40 | |
from both the police and the
Ambulance Service, of a 19-year-old | 3:05:40 | 3:05:44 | |
female self harming in the street
and threatening to kill herself, a | 3:05:44 | 3:05:49 | |
check on the mental health Systems
was able to quickly establish that | 3:05:49 | 3:05:54 | |
she had an extensive history with
the service, and the ambulance on | 3:05:54 | 3:06:00 | |
the scene had wanted to take the
female immediately to an Acute | 3:06:00 | 3:06:07 | |
Hospital, a physical health
hospital. But allowing for the | 3:06:07 | 3:06:12 | |
street triage team to be deployed,
not only could her wounds they | 3:06:12 | 3:06:17 | |
dressed by the paramedic on the car
at the scene, but a face-to-face | 3:06:17 | 3:06:24 | |
assessment could be carried out with
the mental health nurse, and urgent | 3:06:24 | 3:06:28 | |
referral was able to be made to the
home treatment team, so she was able | 3:06:28 | 3:06:34 | |
to get crisis access to services
overnight, and then home treatment | 3:06:34 | 3:06:39 | |
available the very next day, a much
more appropriate response to | 3:06:39 | 3:06:44 | |
somebody going through a crisis, and
ultimately, the woman was | 3:06:44 | 3:06:49 | |
safeguarded with her friend for the
evening, who was able to take her | 3:06:49 | 3:06:54 | |
home, stay with her through the
night and the whole incident lasted | 3:06:54 | 3:06:57 | |
45 minutes, compared to the many,
many hours that it would have taken, | 3:06:57 | 3:07:03 | |
had she had to be taken through A&E
and then through other more | 3:07:03 | 3:07:11 | |
conventional settings. So the triage
teams in the West Midlands have been | 3:07:11 | 3:07:19 | |
involved with approximately 9000
people in the last year, and as a | 3:07:19 | 3:07:23 | |
result of this, and whilst we have
heard some worrying figures around | 3:07:23 | 3:07:31 | |
the country, the use of 136 powers
within the West Midlands, has been | 3:07:31 | 3:07:37 | |
able to be reduced by about a third
over the last five years, from | 3:07:37 | 3:07:43 | |
typically 12 to 1300 year, to 852
times last year. And remarkably, in | 3:07:43 | 3:07:53 | |
the first half of this year, there
was nobody at all in the West | 3:07:53 | 3:07:59 | |
Midlands detained in police custody
under section 136 of the Mental | 3:07:59 | 3:08:04 | |
Health Act. The first time that this
has ever happened in the West | 3:08:04 | 3:08:08 | |
Midlands. Instead, ever 8000 people
have received alternative outcomes, | 3:08:08 | 3:08:14 | |
including referrals to their GP or
other partners, to ensure they got | 3:08:14 | 3:08:20 | |
mental health care, rather than it
being seen purely as a criminal | 3:08:20 | 3:08:25 | |
justice matter. And whilst
significant progress has been made | 3:08:25 | 3:08:29 | |
and continues to be made, this bill
will help to make further progress, | 3:08:29 | 3:08:35 | |
especially through the way that it
addresses the use of force and | 3:08:35 | 3:08:40 | |
restraint against people suffering
from mental ill-health. Currently, | 3:08:40 | 3:08:44 | |
the code of practice clearly states
that restrictive practices should | 3:08:44 | 3:08:49 | |
only be used where there is a real
possibility of real harm, either to | 3:08:49 | 3:08:53 | |
the patient or to the others, and it
should not be used to either punish | 3:08:53 | 3:08:59 | |
or inflict pain or suffering, and it
should be used with minimum | 3:08:59 | 3:09:05 | |
interference to autonomy, privacy
and dignity. In the case of children | 3:09:05 | 3:09:08 | |
and young people, it really should
not be used at all. Staff should | 3:09:08 | 3:09:17 | |
always ensure that restraint is only
used after taking into account | 3:09:17 | 3:09:22 | |
individual's age, their size,
physical vulnerability and emotional | 3:09:22 | 3:09:26 | |
and psychological material to.
Although these guidelines exist, | 3:09:26 | 3:09:31 | |
further openness around the use of
force and restraint is of course not | 3:09:31 | 3:09:36 | |
only welcome, and progressive, but
absolutely necessary for the | 3:09:36 | 3:09:43 | |
individuals involved, for our public
services to have confidence that the | 3:09:43 | 3:09:47 | |
action they are taking is reasonable
and defensible. Clause five of the | 3:09:47 | 3:09:55 | |
bill which requires that registered
managers must have a training | 3:09:55 | 3:10:00 | |
programme for front line staff is
particularly important. Front line | 3:10:00 | 3:10:05 | |
staff would include all people who
are a registered manager and might | 3:10:05 | 3:10:10 | |
reasonably expect to use force or
authorise force on a patient. And | 3:10:10 | 3:10:18 | |
guaranteeing staff are using the
latest and safest procedures should | 3:10:18 | 3:10:23 | |
also be an opportunity to build on
previous learning, not only on | 3:10:23 | 3:10:30 | |
mental health care and proportion
used, but also one wider issues of | 3:10:30 | 3:10:35 | |
equality and necessity. Clause six,
which deals with the requirement for | 3:10:35 | 3:10:41 | |
all mental health service providers
to systematically record information | 3:10:41 | 3:10:45 | |
on their use of force, as has been
said, if you measure it, you can | 3:10:45 | 3:10:50 | |
actually track progress and you can
drive changes in behaviour. So | 3:10:50 | 3:10:56 | |
including records of gender, age and
ethnicity of the patient will help | 3:10:56 | 3:11:02 | |
to improve our understanding, more
importantly our public services' | 3:11:02 | 3:11:05 | |
understanding of the use of
restraint, particularly on the basis | 3:11:05 | 3:11:10 | |
of gender and of race. | 3:11:10 | 3:11:18 | |
Turning to body worn video, clause
13 provides that police officers | 3:11:18 | 3:11:23 | |
called to a mental health unit for
any reason must wear a body that is | 3:11:23 | 3:11:28 | |
accorded as soon as is reasonably
practical. Again within my own force | 3:11:28 | 3:11:34 | |
area, method
hash-mac West Midlands is now | 3:11:34 | 3:11:38 | |
rolling out body cameras to all of
its response officers and the kind | 3:11:38 | 3:11:42 | |
of body cameras that are being used
in the West Midlands can be | 3:11:42 | 3:11:47 | |
automatically triggered, they can be
automatically triggered perhaps by a | 3:11:47 | 3:11:51 | |
siren or blue light, automatically
triggered if their are deployed or | 3:11:51 | 3:11:57 | |
if firearms are drawn. I would hope
that we can look at how there might | 3:11:57 | 3:12:04 | |
be triggers that could be
automatically used to allow for | 3:12:04 | 3:12:10 | |
these body cameras to be
automatically deployed without | 3:12:10 | 3:12:16 | |
relying on necessarily human error.
These cameras will automatically | 3:12:16 | 3:12:18 | |
stay on until they are manually
turned off, Woodward really... | 3:12:18 | 3:12:24 | |
Please do. With the honourable
member agree with me that it makes | 3:12:24 | 3:12:30 | |
sense that if a police officer is on
duty in a response roles then the | 3:12:30 | 3:12:33 | |
camera should be on? Given we see
other walks of life with like -- | 3:12:33 | 3:12:37 | |
like ticket inspectors who wear them
constantly, it should not be that | 3:12:37 | 3:12:41 | |
difficult to place them on on duty
police officers. My honourable | 3:12:41 | 3:12:46 | |
friend makes an excellent point and
is absolutely right, the use of body | 3:12:46 | 3:12:50 | |
cameras we have seen in other
scenarios, it helps to protect the | 3:12:50 | 3:12:55 | |
police as well as protecting anyone
that the police are responding to. I | 3:12:55 | 3:13:03 | |
am very grateful. My understanding
is that in some areas, certainly | 3:13:03 | 3:13:09 | |
with some police forces, the issue
is that the battery life on some of | 3:13:09 | 3:13:13 | |
these cameras is not that it could
be and therefore there is an issue | 3:13:13 | 3:13:16 | |
that it may not last long enough in
all of the circumstances in which he | 3:13:16 | 3:13:20 | |
agree that we need better technology
for the battery life before we start | 3:13:20 | 3:13:24 | |
making, insisting on these things
being used in all circumstances? It | 3:13:24 | 3:13:29 | |
is extremely important that we have
the appropriate technology and of | 3:13:29 | 3:13:35 | |
course the life that they can be
used on the front line is a key part | 3:13:35 | 3:13:40 | |
of that. The systems that are used
in the West Midlands are I think | 3:13:40 | 3:13:46 | |
partly funded through the Home
Office and they are now being rolled | 3:13:46 | 3:13:53 | |
out, and police are confident they
are able to use them from when they | 3:13:53 | 3:13:56 | |
are automatically triggered through
to when they can be uploaded, the | 3:13:56 | 3:14:02 | |
footage can be uploaded back at the
station. As has already been pointed | 3:14:02 | 3:14:10 | |
out, the research strongly suggests
that the use of force is reduced by | 3:14:10 | 3:14:17 | |
about half that if body cameras are
worn, attacks on police officers are | 3:14:17 | 3:14:24 | |
reduced in the West Midlands, the
experience has been harmed to police | 3:14:24 | 3:14:29 | |
officers has been reduced by about
three quarters, since body cameras | 3:14:29 | 3:14:33 | |
started been routinely used. And
complaints against police officers | 3:14:33 | 3:14:38 | |
fallen by over 90%. Whether it's
evidence of a body camera. As I | 3:14:38 | 3:14:48 | |
began, there has been great progress
in the area of mental health, there | 3:14:48 | 3:14:54 | |
is still much more that needs to be
done. We do need greater focus on | 3:14:54 | 3:14:58 | |
mental wellness. On prevention. An
early intervention. And on ensuring | 3:14:58 | 3:15:05 | |
the primary care is in a position to
support and treat patients at an | 3:15:05 | 3:15:10 | |
early stage. But there are of course
always going to be occasions where | 3:15:10 | 3:15:17 | |
restraint is appropriate and even a
small member of circumstances in | 3:15:17 | 3:15:24 | |
which use of force is necessary. But
that use of force must be properly | 3:15:24 | 3:15:31 | |
regulated, it must be registered, it
must be controlled and it must be an | 3:15:31 | 3:15:37 | |
absolute last resort where no other
adequate course of action is | 3:15:37 | 3:15:42 | |
available. Sorry... I thank my
honourable friend for giving way. In | 3:15:42 | 3:15:57 | |
Kent we have seen an increase of the
use of police and body worn cameras | 3:15:57 | 3:16:04 | |
and I think that we have actually
done quite well so pretty maybe give | 3:16:04 | 3:16:09 | |
me slightly more information on what
he is actually seeing happening in | 3:16:09 | 3:16:13 | |
Dudley? Dudley says! Yes, the first
year of general use of these body | 3:16:13 | 3:16:25 | |
cameras, as I said, has shown very
sharp falls in the double of | 3:16:25 | 3:16:29 | |
assaults against police officers,
there have been fewer complaints | 3:16:29 | 3:16:35 | |
against police officers and the time
it takes to handle responses has | 3:16:35 | 3:16:46 | |
fallen from taking many hours of
investigating and -- and phone calls | 3:16:46 | 3:16:53 | |
to in some cases barely minutes,
reviewing clear evidence on body | 3:16:53 | 3:16:56 | |
cameras. So the measures in this,
the measures in this bill are | 3:16:56 | 3:17:04 | |
necessary, they are welcome, so I
wholeheartedly support its today and | 3:17:04 | 3:17:10 | |
look forward to supporting it in its
passage through this place. Thank | 3:17:10 | 3:17:20 | |
you Madam Deputy Speaker. I join
with members across this house in | 3:17:20 | 3:17:23 | |
congratulating the member from
Croydon North for bringing this bill | 3:17:23 | 3:17:28 | |
before us today. I would also like
to thank him for the very | 3:17:28 | 3:17:30 | |
constructive way in which he has
engaged with me and my officials and | 3:17:30 | 3:17:34 | |
I'm looking forward to taking this
bill further on and hopefully | 3:17:34 | 3:17:38 | |
completing its journey so that we
can indeed bring this law to the | 3:17:38 | 3:17:41 | |
statute book. The death in question
was a tragedy and the honourable | 3:17:41 | 3:17:49 | |
member has been deeply touched by
this incident, so touched that he | 3:17:49 | 3:17:52 | |
has brought forward this bill and
brought together an impressive | 3:17:52 | 3:17:55 | |
coalition of interests behind it.
Good- and give my very best wishes | 3:17:55 | 3:18:00 | |
to the family? I know it has been a
very difficult time for them and my | 3:18:00 | 3:18:06 | |
deepest sympathies are extended to
them. Now as we have heard, this | 3:18:06 | 3:18:11 | |
bill seeks to reduce the
inappropriate use of force or | 3:18:11 | 3:18:13 | |
restraint against people with mental
ill-health to allow greater scrutiny | 3:18:13 | 3:18:18 | |
of force in mental health units and
to ensure that police officers use | 3:18:18 | 3:18:22 | |
body worn video cameras in the
course of their duties in relation | 3:18:22 | 3:18:26 | |
to people in mental health units. It
also seeks to guarantee that the | 3:18:26 | 3:18:32 | |
mental health system learns from and
applies appropriate lessons in | 3:18:32 | 3:18:34 | |
relation to the use of force. For
too long restricted interventions | 3:18:34 | 3:18:39 | |
have been accepted as the norm in
health and mental health care | 3:18:39 | 3:18:43 | |
settings -- settings, and we want to
change the culture around the use of | 3:18:43 | 3:18:47 | |
restricted interventions and that is
why the government supports the | 3:18:47 | 3:18:50 | |
principle set out in this bill... I
think it is important also that we | 3:18:50 | 3:18:56 | |
note that in 2015 there was 67,864
incidents against NHS staff, 67% of | 3:18:56 | 3:19:07 | |
those took place in a mental health
setting, so we do need to appreciate | 3:19:07 | 3:19:10 | |
that there is a need for force
because sometimes those staff | 3:19:10 | 3:19:13 | |
working in the situations needs to
be protected. The honourable | 3:19:13 | 3:19:20 | |
gentleman makes a valid point. We
are all agreed in this house that we | 3:19:20 | 3:19:26 | |
need to get the rights and liberties
balanced against the need to achieve | 3:19:26 | 3:19:30 | |
safety. And that I can say quite
categorically I think that this bill | 3:19:30 | 3:19:35 | |
goes a long way to. That is why the
government supports this bill and I | 3:19:35 | 3:19:44 | |
think the honourable gentleman will
also accept that there are still | 3:19:44 | 3:19:46 | |
some work to do in the detail about
the right mechanisms and processes | 3:19:46 | 3:19:50 | |
but I think those are things we can
explore in committee and we are | 3:19:50 | 3:19:53 | |
fully behind giving this bill a
second reading. I am very grateful | 3:19:53 | 3:19:58 | |
to my honourable friend for giving
way. Would she agree with me at the | 3:19:58 | 3:20:02 | |
thrust of this bill is about
accountability and the measures it | 3:20:02 | 3:20:07 | |
provides give both protection for
the individual and patient but also | 3:20:07 | 3:20:11 | |
the professionals working around
them? I agree with that point, ably | 3:20:11 | 3:20:16 | |
made by my honourable friend,
because what this bill does is bring | 3:20:16 | 3:20:20 | |
real accountability and transparency
to the system which will actually | 3:20:20 | 3:20:22 | |
protect everyone in the system. I
welcome the opportunity to debate | 3:20:22 | 3:20:28 | |
this today and to highlight some of
the progress we have already made on | 3:20:28 | 3:20:31 | |
some of the provisions the bill is
seeking to introduce and | 3:20:31 | 3:20:33 | |
strengthened. But first I think we
should examine exactly the issue | 3:20:33 | 3:20:38 | |
regarding restrictive restraint. It
is not a great picture, to be frank. | 3:20:38 | 3:20:45 | |
Information from NHS digital shows
that in 2013-14, more than 6000 | 3:20:45 | 3:20:51 | |
people who spent time in hospital
were subject to at least one | 3:20:51 | 3:20:54 | |
incident of restraint. Collectively
these people experienced more than | 3:20:54 | 3:21:00 | |
23,000 incidents of restraint. With
960 people having been restrained | 3:21:00 | 3:21:04 | |
five or more times in a year. And as
colleagues across the house have | 3:21:04 | 3:21:09 | |
told that can bring real trauma and
should be avoided at all costs. We | 3:21:09 | 3:21:14 | |
also know that a group of inpatients
which experienced the highest | 3:21:14 | 3:21:17 | |
proportion of restraint was the
category labelled mixed ethnic | 3:21:17 | 3:21:22 | |
group, with 101 incidents of
restraint out 1000 inpatients, and | 3:21:22 | 3:21:27 | |
we really needs to get to the bottom
of why that is the case. We also | 3:21:27 | 3:21:31 | |
know that there is a link between
the use of restraint and particular | 3:21:31 | 3:21:35 | |
points in the patient pathway. For
example in 2015 the survey of | 3:21:35 | 3:21:39 | |
restraint commission by the
government found that 23.6% of | 3:21:39 | 3:21:44 | |
restraint incidents occurred in the
first week of admission. We have | 3:21:44 | 3:21:47 | |
also talked about gender and can
confirm that 57.4% of people | 3:21:47 | 3:21:53 | |
restraint were men, compared to
42.5% being women, that clearly does | 3:21:53 | 3:21:58 | |
not reflect the gender balance of
people in detention. Members have | 3:21:58 | 3:22:04 | |
also referred to the fact that on
Monday the house welcomed the | 3:22:04 | 3:22:09 | |
publication of the independent
review of deaths and serious | 3:22:09 | 3:22:12 | |
incident in police custody and the
government response. The report is | 3:22:12 | 3:22:16 | |
very thorough, it identified from
boyhood and at every stage of the | 3:22:16 | 3:22:19 | |
procedures and processes surrounding
police custody. It made 110 | 3:22:19 | 3:22:26 | |
recommendations regarding the use of
restraint, training for officers and | 3:22:26 | 3:22:29 | |
making it easier for families facing
inquests into deaths in police | 3:22:29 | 3:22:35 | |
custody to access a legal aid and
nine of the honourable gentleman is | 3:22:35 | 3:22:37 | |
very concerned about that issue. The
extent to which these techniques | 3:22:37 | 3:22:43 | |
considered deaths in custody and
whether they are fit for purpose is | 3:22:43 | 3:22:46 | |
a crucial aspect of the report.
Police training and practice | 3:22:46 | 3:22:51 | |
emphasised that under certain
circumstances any form of restraint | 3:22:51 | 3:22:54 | |
can potentially lead to death. So
the national police chief counsel | 3:22:54 | 3:22:59 | |
and the College of policing continue
to ensure that the legal medical and | 3:22:59 | 3:23:04 | |
tactical advice is embedded through
the national personal safety manual, | 3:23:04 | 3:23:08 | |
especially in relation to charges of
fraud restraint and mental health | 3:23:08 | 3:23:13 | |
issues. I know some members today
have expressed views on the use of | 3:23:13 | 3:23:16 | |
restraint and particularly prone
restraint, with some people | 3:23:16 | 3:23:21 | |
suggesting that this type of
restraint should be banned | 3:23:21 | 3:23:23 | |
altogether. As a note of caution I
was at Broadmoor yesterday and was | 3:23:23 | 3:23:31 | |
told about the man had experienced a
head injury who needed stitches. | 3:23:31 | 3:23:35 | |
Because of the challenges of his
behaviour and mental health | 3:23:35 | 3:23:39 | |
conditions, the prone restraint was
used. I am not condoning the use of | 3:23:39 | 3:23:42 | |
prone restraint in the situation or
in any other, but I will offer a | 3:23:42 | 3:23:46 | |
word of caution, we need to
understand restraint and define it | 3:23:46 | 3:23:50 | |
clearly before undertaking an
outright ban. The guidance does tell | 3:23:50 | 3:23:54 | |
us that prone restraint should only
be used as a last resort, and I | 3:23:54 | 3:23:57 | |
think we must be careful not to put
potentially staff at risk by | 3:23:57 | 3:24:01 | |
introducing a blanket ban without
first understanding more about the | 3:24:01 | 3:24:05 | |
circumstances when this type of
restraint might be necessary. In | 3:24:05 | 3:24:10 | |
August this year the CKC published
its estate of care in mental health | 3:24:10 | 3:24:15 | |
services report. That report
identified variances in how | 3:24:15 | 3:24:17 | |
frequently staff views
hash-mac/ news restricted practices | 3:24:17 | 3:24:21 | |
to manage people with challenging
behaviour and the CTC is looking at | 3:24:21 | 3:24:25 | |
this more closely. It has committed
to reviewing how the assess the use | 3:24:25 | 3:24:30 | |
of these interventions and this will
include developing and regularly | 3:24:30 | 3:24:33 | |
updating tools for the inspection
teams to ensure consistency of | 3:24:33 | 3:24:36 | |
assessment and reporting. We believe
that the variances are as much today | 3:24:36 | 3:24:41 | |
with the principles in making the
reports as in behaviour. As part of | 3:24:41 | 3:24:48 | |
the mental health at annual report
of activity the CKC is developing a | 3:24:48 | 3:24:51 | |
publication to highlight areas of
good practice in reducing the need | 3:24:51 | 3:24:55 | |
for restrictive interventions.
Colleagues at the CKC have indicated | 3:24:55 | 3:24:59 | |
that they support the principles
better reporting, improved training | 3:24:59 | 3:25:03 | |
and accountability and greater
transparency under this bill and it | 3:25:03 | 3:25:06 | |
is vital we also engage with them as
we this forward. Turning now to the | 3:25:06 | 3:25:12 | |
provisions in the bill, a provision
of the bill is front-line staff to | 3:25:12 | 3:25:15 | |
have training inequality,
non-discrimination and conduct under | 3:25:15 | 3:25:20 | |
the equality act 2010, a, informed
approach to care and, critically, | 3:25:20 | 3:25:27 | |
techniques to avoid a reduced use of
force. Individual providers are | 3:25:27 | 3:25:32 | |
expected to ensure that their staff
an appropriately trained in the use | 3:25:32 | 3:25:36 | |
of force and there are many training
programmes available to the health | 3:25:36 | 3:25:39 | |
service providers. What this bill
will help us to address is the | 3:25:39 | 3:25:43 | |
variation across the system in what
training staff are receiving. Health | 3:25:43 | 3:25:48 | |
care providers are encouraged to
focus training on de-escalation, | 3:25:48 | 3:25:53 | |
understanding the course of
behaviour that challenges and | 3:25:53 | 3:25:57 | |
reflect on incident of restraint to
see how they can be reduced or | 3:25:57 | 3:26:00 | |
avoided for both the individual
concerned and all service users. | 3:26:00 | 3:26:05 | |
Treating and caring for people in a
safe, compassionate environment for | 3:26:05 | 3:26:10 | |
patients and staff is a priority for
this government. We know that | 3:26:10 | 3:26:14 | |
restrictive physical interventions
are risky for all individuals | 3:26:14 | 3:26:17 | |
involved and they have a negative
impact on patient dignity and their | 3:26:17 | 3:26:20 | |
trust in services. We have made
progress since the publication of | 3:26:20 | 3:26:27 | |
positive and proactive care,
reducing the need for respect of | 3:26:27 | 3:26:29 | |
interventions in April 20 14. | 3:26:29 | 3:26:40 | |
It also recommends that all
restricted interventions should be | 3:26:40 | 3:26:44 | |
for the shortest time possible and
use the least restrictive means. The | 3:26:44 | 3:26:50 | |
guidance developed plans. These
plans, along with organisations' | 3:26:50 | 3:27:00 | |
relatively relative use of
restraints forms a key part of the | 3:27:00 | 3:27:06 | |
CQC inspections and we expect the
CQC to use its regulatory powers to | 3:27:06 | 3:27:12 | |
minimise the use of force including
face down restraint. Our colleagues | 3:27:12 | 3:27:17 | |
in the police are also training
officers on how to respond to calls | 3:27:17 | 3:27:21 | |
which relate to those with mental
health difficulties and other | 3:27:21 | 3:27:28 | |
difficulties. Revised guidance was
published by the College of Policing | 3:27:28 | 3:27:32 | |
in October last year. This aims to
give officers the knowledge they | 3:27:32 | 3:27:36 | |
need to resolve situations and
ensure the public get the most | 3:27:36 | 3:27:39 | |
appropriate service. Whilst the
police are not, and not expected to | 3:27:39 | 3:27:45 | |
be mental health professionals, they
are often the first on the scene of | 3:27:45 | 3:27:50 | |
those experiencing mental health
crisis. The aim is therefore to | 3:27:50 | 3:27:54 | |
insure that officers respond
appropriately. An data collection, | 3:27:54 | 3:27:58 | |
the bill seeks to gain more detailed
information on instances of force | 3:27:58 | 3:28:05 | |
used in mental health settings. NHS
digital has collected information | 3:28:05 | 3:28:09 | |
about the use of face down
restraint, as part of the mental | 3:28:09 | 3:28:13 | |
health service data set. There is
still a lot of work to be done on | 3:28:13 | 3:28:16 | |
the quality of the data as the
honourable gentleman referred. It | 3:28:16 | 3:28:20 | |
does not go to the amount of detail
that the bill would currently | 3:28:20 | 3:28:23 | |
require but we are confident that we
can make changes to improve the | 3:28:23 | 3:28:27 | |
transparency of the information we
collect. Point of order, Madam | 3:28:27 | 3:28:34 | |
Deputy Speaker, that the question
been output. The question is that | 3:28:34 | 3:28:45 | |
the question been output. The ayes
have it, the ayes have it. The | 3:28:45 | 3:28:51 | |
question is that the hill is read a
second time. As many as are of the | 3:28:51 | 3:28:56 | |
opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,
"no". The ayes have it, the ayes | 3:28:56 | 3:28:59 | |
have it.
Representation of the people, young | 3:28:59 | 3:29:09 | |
people's enfranchisement and
education Bill second reading. | 3:29:09 | 3:29:15 | |
Jim McMahon. Thank you, Madam Deputy
Speaker. I beg to move that the | 3:29:15 | 3:29:21 | |
representation of the people, young
people's enfranchisement and | 3:29:21 | 3:29:24 | |
education Bill now be read for a
second time. Firstly, Madam Deputy | 3:29:24 | 3:29:31 | |
Speaker, the debate that we just had
an mental health was a very | 3:29:31 | 3:29:35 | |
important debate, and I congratulate
my honourable friend for moving that | 3:29:35 | 3:29:39 | |
important issue, and I reflect on
the quality of the contributions | 3:29:39 | 3:29:42 | |
made. It is though apparent that
there were members who were keen to | 3:29:42 | 3:29:48 | |
talk at great length in support of
that bill, no doubt to reduce the | 3:29:48 | 3:29:54 | |
amount of time that was available...
Shane! Order, order, order. If any | 3:29:54 | 3:30:06 | |
member of this House was speaking in
this House in a way that was | 3:30:06 | 3:30:09 | |
inappropriate or for the wrong
reasons then the occupant of the | 3:30:09 | 3:30:18 | |
Chao, who was not me at that time,
would have stopped them from so | 3:30:18 | 3:30:21 | |
doing. I'm sure if any member was
making a speech about something they | 3:30:21 | 3:30:26 | |
feel passionately, sometimes they do
go one rather longer than they | 3:30:26 | 3:30:29 | |
might. But if it was improper then
it would have been stopped. Mr | 3:30:29 | 3:30:35 | |
McMahon. I absolutely take the point
made about the passionate way that | 3:30:35 | 3:30:40 | |
some members made their speech. I
also reflect that some people find | 3:30:40 | 3:30:44 | |
it easier to hide their obvious
passion but still went on at great | 3:30:44 | 3:30:50 | |
length as well and I respect them in
the same way. | 3:30:50 | 3:30:53 | |
LAUGHTER
Sit down! There is a moment in time | 3:30:53 | 3:31:03 | |
when the time comes to reform and
any democracy, for it to be relevant | 3:31:03 | 3:31:08 | |
must reform, must take into account
where it is, and must listen to the | 3:31:08 | 3:31:13 | |
mood of the public. This parliament
is nothing, if it is not the voice | 3:31:13 | 3:31:20 | |
of the people who we are here to
represent. Now, after many years of | 3:31:20 | 3:31:26 | |
debate, after many years of
campaigning, it is my strong belief | 3:31:26 | 3:31:29 | |
that now is the time to extend the
franchise. Now is the time to give | 3:31:29 | 3:31:37 | |
16 and 17-year-olds the right to
vote. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, I | 3:31:37 | 3:31:43 | |
have something to admit to today,
that I feel... Point of order. | 3:31:43 | 3:31:56 | |
Deputy Speaker, I felt as if I was
accused for speaking in the last | 3:31:56 | 3:32:00 | |
debate and taking up a lot of time.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I made two | 3:32:00 | 3:32:07 | |
short interventions and I had been
in this chamber for a number of | 3:32:07 | 3:32:11 | |
hours. The honourable gentleman
opposite was not. Madam Deputy | 3:32:11 | 3:32:15 | |
Speaker, do you think he should
apologise? | 3:32:15 | 3:32:20 | |
Order, order. I appreciate the point
the honourable lady is making. I | 3:32:20 | 3:32:24 | |
have already dealt with the matter
that the honourable gentleman has | 3:32:24 | 3:32:28 | |
raised. It is up to each member of
this House to judge when they speak, | 3:32:28 | 3:32:35 | |
how they speak, the amount of
passion they use and the length of | 3:32:35 | 3:32:39 | |
time they speak except when I tell
them not to. | 3:32:39 | 3:32:41 | |
Mr McMahon. Can I congratulate the
member on that point of order, | 3:32:41 | 3:32:49 | |
almost a shoo-in for the amateur
dramatic Society. But also the | 3:32:49 | 3:32:55 | |
important matter in hand. Because
today is not about... Today is not | 3:32:55 | 3:33:07 | |
about people's egos in this place.
Today is about people outside this | 3:33:07 | 3:33:14 | |
place. Order! Order, order! Order!
The honourable gentleman is making | 3:33:14 | 3:33:25 | |
an important speech on an important
matter and he must be heard. He must | 3:33:25 | 3:33:31 | |
be heard. Mr McMahon.
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker for | 3:33:31 | 3:33:37 | |
that helpful assertion on your part.
My point was this. Today in this | 3:33:37 | 3:33:43 | |
chamber, and I should say that to
the first time I have felt this, I | 3:33:43 | 3:33:48 | |
felt it in my maiden speech, I felt
contributions being important, but | 3:33:48 | 3:33:52 | |
today is the first time I feel the
great weight of responsibility on my | 3:33:52 | 3:33:57 | |
shoulders. And the reason for that
is not because of the grandeur and | 3:33:57 | 3:34:03 | |
the status of this place, the reason
for that is because the reason why | 3:34:03 | 3:34:09 | |
is my Private Member's Bill, is
because it was selected by the old | 3:34:09 | 3:34:15 | |
youth Council. I am pleased to say
that they are here in the gallery | 3:34:15 | 3:34:20 | |
today. I'm very proud of the town
where I live, I am very proud of the | 3:34:20 | 3:34:28 | |
town I now represent in parliament
and I can say the Oldham youth | 3:34:28 | 3:34:33 | |
Council makes me extremely proud of
the young people who are growing up | 3:34:33 | 3:34:36 | |
in our town. If you ever believe
that young people do not have a | 3:34:36 | 3:34:44 | |
political view, are not informed,
have not educated themselves on the | 3:34:44 | 3:34:48 | |
matters of the day, then I would say
contact your local youth Council and | 3:34:48 | 3:34:53 | |
have your education. Our democracy
and our franchise has always | 3:34:53 | 3:34:58 | |
evolved. 200 years ago, working men
and women did not have the right to | 3:34:58 | 3:35:06 | |
vote. Next year we will be
reflecting on 100 years of women's | 3:35:06 | 3:35:11 | |
suffrage when women were given the
right to vote for the first time. | 3:35:11 | 3:35:15 | |
And it was less than 50 years ago
that 18, 19 and 20 -year-olds were | 3:35:15 | 3:35:24 | |
denied the right to vote. Our
franchise has always been in | 3:35:24 | 3:35:28 | |
evolution, it has always taken into
account where the public mood is, | 3:35:28 | 3:35:31 | |
and this is really important, it has
always been about making sure that | 3:35:31 | 3:35:36 | |
we expand democracy to be as
inclusive as possible, so it is not | 3:35:36 | 3:35:40 | |
an exclusive club where power is
held by the few. And there are | 3:35:40 | 3:35:46 | |
different approaches on this. I
would respect the Government who | 3:35:46 | 3:35:49 | |
says we have heard the debate, we
have taken into account the points | 3:35:49 | 3:35:56 | |
that have been made, we have seen
the evidence base, but ultimately, | 3:35:56 | 3:36:00 | |
we have arrived at a different
conclusion than the member. I would | 3:36:00 | 3:36:04 | |
respect that. What I do not respect
is a government which works in the | 3:36:04 | 3:36:08 | |
shadows, that is scared of having a
parliamentary vote because they know | 3:36:08 | 3:36:16 | |
they cannot win. That is not a
government in charge, that is a weak | 3:36:16 | 3:36:20 | |
government. It cannot even control
its own members and I pay tribute to | 3:36:20 | 3:36:28 | |
their members who have listened to
the debate from our young people who | 3:36:28 | 3:36:32 | |
want a voice in our democracy. Shame
on you that you did not push that, | 3:36:32 | 3:36:41 | |
shame on the members for not pushing
that. The Prime Minister is the | 3:36:41 | 3:36:50 | |
weakest we have seen a Prime
Minister in this generation. When | 3:36:50 | 3:36:54 | |
the Cabinet is in shambles, that
would have been the time when the | 3:36:54 | 3:36:58 | |
backbenchers could have stood up and
moved this issue with the Government | 3:36:58 | 3:37:02 | |
of the day. But far better to stay
in position and hope that at some | 3:37:02 | 3:37:08 | |
point, the greasy pole will be
theirs to climb, and I hope that it | 3:37:08 | 3:37:13 | |
is, and they get their just reward.
Sit down! Sit down! The Labour Party | 3:37:13 | 3:37:26 | |
is confident in our policies, we are
confident in our arguments. We | 3:37:26 | 3:37:31 | |
believe that the best way to win the
argument is to go and speak to | 3:37:31 | 3:37:38 | |
people, to convince, to inform and
if needed, to change position. The | 3:37:38 | 3:37:47 | |
honourable gentleman is not giving
way. It is called debate! No need to | 3:37:47 | 3:37:56 | |
shout. Mr McMahon. He might consider
giving way but he does not have to | 3:37:56 | 3:38:03 | |
if he does not want to. Thank you,
Madam Deputy Speaker. There are two | 3:38:03 | 3:38:12 | |
ways of running a government and the
country. One is to narrow the | 3:38:12 | 3:38:17 | |
franchise and squeeze it as much as
possible. How would you do that? You | 3:38:17 | 3:38:21 | |
could exclude people from the
electoral register. You could force | 3:38:21 | 3:38:24 | |
people to show ID at a polling
station when there is no obligation | 3:38:24 | 3:38:29 | |
to even hold photographic ID in this
country. You could gerrymander the | 3:38:29 | 3:38:35 | |
boundaries. With your mates and your
donors. There are plenty of ways of | 3:38:35 | 3:38:42 | |
manipulating a system but, we
believe that the best way to run a | 3:38:42 | 3:38:49 | |
democracy is by extending the
franchise and including people. This | 3:38:49 | 3:38:54 | |
is not about gaming the system, this
is about including people and | 3:38:54 | 3:39:00 | |
hearing what people are saying, and
importantly, taking into account | 3:39:00 | 3:39:05 | |
what people were telling us in the
Brexit debate, people were demanding | 3:39:05 | 3:39:09 | |
that we take back control. And I
think the very fact that the way | 3:39:09 | 3:39:15 | |
today has gone means we might not
even get to a vote today. I think | 3:39:15 | 3:39:21 | |
the Government benches ought to be
very concerned, because 16 and | 3:39:21 | 3:39:26 | |
17-year-olds today might be denied
the right to vote, but in two years' | 3:39:26 | 3:39:29 | |
time... They will remember, they
will remember... I will give way. | 3:39:29 | 3:39:53 | |
Order, order, order! Order! This is
not a football match. We are having | 3:39:53 | 3:40:05 | |
a debate will stop we will behave in
an honourable and decent manner. Mr | 3:40:05 | 3:40:15 | |
Owen is intervening.
My honourable friend was right to | 3:40:15 | 3:40:23 | |
remind the House how out of touch
the Conservative Party are coming, | 3:40:23 | 3:40:27 | |
but on the serious point of
16-year-olds, in Scotland they are | 3:40:27 | 3:40:32 | |
moving progressively towards this.
The Welsh Government have a | 3:40:32 | 3:40:36 | |
consultation on 16 and 17-year-olds.
It is time this House caught up and | 3:40:36 | 3:40:41 | |
I am fully supportive, as are the
people of Wales. My honourable | 3:40:41 | 3:40:46 | |
friend makes a very important point.
OK, for balance, Madam Deputy | 3:40:46 | 3:40:52 | |
Speaker, let me take an intervention
from the other side. | 3:40:52 | 3:41:00 | |
I don't know if maybe his speech at
the moment was maybe his own | 3:41:00 | 3:41:06 | |
leadership speech with getting his
colleagues to row him, but I would | 3:41:06 | 3:41:11 | |
like to ask him, and I would like to
ask him for clarification on the | 3:41:11 | 3:41:18 | |
fact he said he would not take
interventions on this side of the | 3:41:18 | 3:41:21 | |
House because we have had our time,
it was not this side of the House's | 3:41:21 | 3:41:25 | |
fault that no one from your party
decided to speak in the last debate. | 3:41:25 | 3:41:33 | |
Could you clarify that point from a?
Order! We are not debating the last | 3:41:33 | 3:41:39 | |
speech. We are debating this bill
and that is what we will talk about. | 3:41:39 | 3:41:45 | |
Mr McMahon. | 3:41:45 | 3:41:51 | |
I think you'll find on this side
matter matter is leader and who | 3:41:51 | 3:41:55 | |
isn't is settled. It is actually the
Conservative Party... I thoroughly | 3:41:55 | 3:42:07 | |
expect a delegation to be knocking
on the door of Number Ten in the | 3:42:07 | 3:42:11 | |
coming weeks, but let's leave that
there are. We have heard already how | 3:42:11 | 3:42:15 | |
the mood in Scotland has already
changed, and it was to me inspiring | 3:42:15 | 3:42:22 | |
the way 75% of 16-17 -year-old came
out to vote in the 2014 Scottish | 3:42:22 | 3:42:27 | |
referendum. I will give way to my
friend. I thank my friends are | 3:42:27 | 3:42:30 | |
giving way. Would he agree with me
that in places like Bradford, who | 3:42:30 | 3:42:35 | |
will be the youngest city by 2020,
this vote is absolutely imperative | 3:42:35 | 3:42:39 | |
for our young constituents, and I
congratulate him for bringing this | 3:42:39 | 3:42:43 | |
up? Can I thank my honourable friend
for that comment? Actually what I | 3:42:43 | 3:42:50 | |
think was shown by the Scottish
Conservative leader who says she is | 3:42:50 | 3:42:55 | |
now a fully paid-up member of the
board for 16... -- vote for 16. We | 3:42:55 | 3:43:03 | |
have already heard people in Wales
may soon be given the right to vote | 3:43:03 | 3:43:08 | |
as 16 and 17-year-olds. I thank him
for giving way. He mentioned Wales | 3:43:08 | 3:43:13 | |
again. There was actually a survey
of 10,000 young people in Wales, | 3:43:13 | 3:43:19 | |
15-25, and only 29% of them opposed
giving the vote to 16, a clear | 3:43:19 | 3:43:23 | |
majority in favour of that. A lot of
them are far more mature and taking | 3:43:23 | 3:43:28 | |
place in politics than some of the
nonsense we have heard from the | 3:43:28 | 3:43:31 | |
benches opposite. Abeid I click on
board entirely. -- that is a point I | 3:43:31 | 3:43:40 | |
take on board entirely. If we
continue as we are, young people in | 3:43:40 | 3:43:44 | |
Scotland and Wales will have the
right to vote in the elections that | 3:43:44 | 3:43:48 | |
will be denied that for young people
in England and Northern Ireland. Let | 3:43:48 | 3:43:52 | |
me just say this. If you believe in
a United Kingdom then we must have | 3:43:52 | 3:43:57 | |
democratic equality as well. United
by common rights, responsibilities | 3:43:57 | 3:44:03 | |
and with an equal voice in our
democracy. As much as this bill | 3:44:03 | 3:44:08 | |
seeks to extend the franchise, the
lion's share of the bill is about | 3:44:08 | 3:44:12 | |
education in schools. Because we
recognise that actually there is a | 3:44:12 | 3:44:16 | |
disconnect between politicians,
politics and the people who we say | 3:44:16 | 3:44:20 | |
we are here to serve and we see that
in voter turnout, in the public | 3:44:20 | 3:44:24 | |
mood, and we also hear it in the
Brexit debate, where people want to | 3:44:24 | 3:44:28 | |
take back control of their country
but don't quite know how to achieve | 3:44:28 | 3:44:31 | |
that. I will give way. I thank him
for giving way. He mentions the | 3:44:31 | 3:44:38 | |
members of the youth Council and the
public gallery, he mentioned | 3:44:38 | 3:44:41 | |
education. Does he not think it
would be a better education if he | 3:44:41 | 3:44:45 | |
had adopted the tone of his
honourable friend the member for | 3:44:45 | 3:44:48 | |
Croydon North who sought genuine
cross-party agreement to progress | 3:44:48 | 3:44:53 | |
and bill, rather than spending the
opening ten minutes of his speech in | 3:44:53 | 3:44:57 | |
the most egregious partisan Thai
raid I have ever heard? Might it | 3:44:57 | 3:45:05 | |
affect the lesson he is actually
sending to the young people in the | 3:45:05 | 3:45:07 | |
gallery? OK, well, obviously I
respect the point of view shown. I | 3:45:07 | 3:45:14 | |
have to say I was quite pleased with
my performance... I am disappointed | 3:45:14 | 3:45:20 | |
it wasn't shared by all members of
the House, but you can't win them | 3:45:20 | 3:45:24 | |
all! I will make progress because I
know people have put in to speak and | 3:45:24 | 3:45:28 | |
I think it is only right we hear
that. But this is not a party | 3:45:28 | 3:45:31 | |
political point. I think the way
today has gone has been partisan, | 3:45:31 | 3:45:34 | |
but this is a bill that is supported
across parties, supported by the | 3:45:34 | 3:45:39 | |
Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru, the
Green benches and the SNP, and | 3:45:39 | 3:45:44 | |
actually some Conservative members
who believe the time has now on to | 3:45:44 | 3:45:48 | |
extend the franchise. If we educate
young people in schools, if we give | 3:45:48 | 3:45:53 | |
them the vote at 16, I am absolutely
convinced they will carry that | 3:45:53 | 3:45:58 | |
voting habit into older life and it
will increase turnout, | 3:45:58 | 3:46:02 | |
participation, and it will value
even more the democracy that we see | 3:46:02 | 3:46:06 | |
here. I hope there is a proper
debate and proper contribution on | 3:46:06 | 3:46:11 | |
this. It could be that despite my
desire for the time to come for | 3:46:11 | 3:46:16 | |
this, that actually time does not
allow for it to come today. But I | 3:46:16 | 3:46:19 | |
would say this. The mood in the
country is changing. The mood across | 3:46:19 | 3:46:25 | |
the United Kingdom is now very
divided, where Scotland and Wales | 3:46:25 | 3:46:30 | |
will have different powers than
England and Northern Ireland, and I | 3:46:30 | 3:46:33 | |
just say this. For the future of our
United Kingdom, the future of our | 3:46:33 | 3:46:39 | |
democratic equality across our
country, let's just take the steps | 3:46:39 | 3:46:42 | |
we need to give 16 and 17-year-olds
the right to vote. The question | 3:46:42 | 3:46:53 | |
is... Was that point of order? Thank
you, Madame Deputy Speaker. I make a | 3:46:53 | 3:46:59 | |
point of order to ask you some
advice, Madame Deputy Speaker. I | 3:46:59 | 3:47:03 | |
tried on a number of occasions to
intervene and the honourable | 3:47:03 | 3:47:06 | |
gentleman turned me. Order! A matter
of whether an intervention is taken | 3:47:06 | 3:47:15 | |
by the person who has the floor is
entirely up to the person who has | 3:47:15 | 3:47:19 | |
the floor and not a matter for Duce,
and if the honourable lady feels | 3:47:19 | 3:47:25 | |
aggrieved then I can understand --
not a for the the chair. But it is | 3:47:25 | 3:47:31 | |
not a matter for me. Further to that
point of order us a point I wish to | 3:47:31 | 3:47:39 | |
make -- further to that point of
order? If the bill is such an | 3:47:39 | 3:47:45 | |
important matter could Madame Deputy
Speaker explain to me and the House | 3:47:45 | 3:47:48 | |
why there were no explanatory notes
produced with the bill? Once again, | 3:47:48 | 3:48:00 | |
the procedure of producing
explanatory notes is a fairly new | 3:48:00 | 3:48:03 | |
procedure to the House of Commons,
and that might come as a surprise to | 3:48:03 | 3:48:08 | |
members who have not been here for a
very long, but not so long ago we | 3:48:08 | 3:48:12 | |
simply had to read the bills and sit
down until we could understand them. | 3:48:12 | 3:48:18 | |
A matter which I'm quite used to. It
is a matter of choice of the | 3:48:18 | 3:48:27 | |
promoter of the bill, whether that
be the Government or a Private | 3:48:27 | 3:48:31 | |
member or anyone else as to whether
they produce notes on the member in | 3:48:31 | 3:48:36 | |
charge of this bill has not decided
to produce such notes, it is | 3:48:36 | 3:48:41 | |
entirely up to him. It might be that
he thinks the bill is fairly | 3:48:41 | 3:48:49 | |
straightforward, but that is also
not a matter for me. The question is | 3:48:49 | 3:48:58 | |
that the bill be now read a second
time. Thank you, Madame Deputy | 3:48:58 | 3:49:06 | |
Speaker. I congratulate the
honourable gentleman who has | 3:49:06 | 3:49:09 | |
introduced this bill for scoring a
ballot. In recent years the question | 3:49:09 | 3:49:14 | |
of whether the voting age should be
lowered to 16 has attracted a deal | 3:49:14 | 3:49:18 | |
of interest and comment, and this
includes inquiries by the high with | 3:49:18 | 3:49:22 | |
working party on electoral
procedures in 1989, the Electoral | 3:49:22 | 3:49:27 | |
Commission in 2003, by the power
commission in 2006 -- the working | 3:49:27 | 3:49:33 | |
party on electoral procedures in
1999. And most recently by the | 3:49:33 | 3:49:37 | |
Commons Political and Constitutional
Reform Committee in 2015, to name | 3:49:37 | 3:49:41 | |
just but a few. The latter committee
has now merged with the public | 3:49:41 | 3:49:46 | |
demonstration Select Committee and
is now part of the Constitutional | 3:49:46 | 3:49:51 | |
affairs committee, which I chair,
although I speak in this debate in a | 3:49:51 | 3:49:54 | |
personal capacity. Madame Deputy
Speaker, the issues considered by | 3:49:54 | 3:50:00 | |
these inquiries has been wide
ranging and include comparisons of | 3:50:00 | 3:50:03 | |
the voting range in other
established democracies, the level | 3:50:03 | 3:50:06 | |
of support for lowering the voting
is amongst the electorate, the | 3:50:06 | 3:50:10 | |
political maturity of 16 and
17-year-olds, turnout amongst | 3:50:10 | 3:50:13 | |
younger voters and the age at which
people should become entitled to | 3:50:13 | 3:50:17 | |
different rights and duties. Any
voting age is somewhat arbitrary, | 3:50:17 | 3:50:23 | |
however there are strong argument in
favour of retaining the status quo, | 3:50:23 | 3:50:27 | |
and argument in favour of lowering
the voting age are at best somewhat | 3:50:27 | 3:50:31 | |
muddled and inconsistent. A line
must be clearly drawn somewhere, and | 3:50:31 | 3:50:35 | |
the present age of 18 is widely
accepted across society, and indeed | 3:50:35 | 3:50:41 | |
widely accepted across the vast
majority of countries in the world. | 3:50:41 | 3:50:45 | |
Only a tiny fraction of which have a
lower voting age than the United | 3:50:45 | 3:50:48 | |
Kingdom. What was that? Yes, I
certainly give way. He may not | 3:50:48 | 3:50:55 | |
realise but this debate has been
pursued by the SNP for some years, | 3:50:55 | 3:50:59 | |
including in the maiden speech of
1967 in November and consistently | 3:50:59 | 3:51:03 | |
there has been an argument for
reducing the voting age. Do you not | 3:51:03 | 3:51:08 | |
agree it is no time to act on those
demands rather than continue to take | 3:51:08 | 3:51:12 | |
it into the long grass? Without
wishing to introduce a partisan and | 3:51:12 | 3:51:17 | |
discordant note, it is possible for
another party to be consistently | 3:51:17 | 3:51:22 | |
wrong for a long period of time, and
I believe that is the case in the | 3:51:22 | 3:51:26 | |
matter she raises. Madame Deputy
Speaker, can I make a little bit of | 3:51:26 | 3:51:29 | |
progress, then I will give way
again? The Electoral Commission's | 3:51:29 | 3:51:33 | |
consultation paper on the voting age
in the UK was published in 2003 and | 3:51:33 | 3:51:37 | |
examined the voting age in other
countries. At that time, all EU | 3:51:37 | 3:51:42 | |
member states had a minimum voting
age of 18 in national elections. The | 3:51:42 | 3:51:48 | |
vote has subsequently been lowered
to 16 in Austria. I give way to the | 3:51:48 | 3:51:51 | |
honourable lady. He says it is
possible for one party perhaps to be | 3:51:51 | 3:51:57 | |
consistently wrong. Would he accept
it is unlikely that four parties | 3:51:57 | 3:52:01 | |
could be consistently wrong, and
that two parts of the United Kingdom | 3:52:01 | 3:52:05 | |
have owned it -- who have found it
to be successful might be right? | 3:52:05 | 3:52:12 | |
This is a new concept of democracy
and never previously considered, | 3:52:12 | 3:52:16 | |
which as you don't actually count
the votes of the people who vote in | 3:52:16 | 3:52:19 | |
elections, just the number of
political parties. I'm afraid that's | 3:52:19 | 3:52:22 | |
not the way we decide issues in this
country. We are elected by voters, | 3:52:22 | 3:52:27 | |
not political parties. But it is
interesting that the only country in | 3:52:27 | 3:52:30 | |
which they have lowered the voting
age in the European Union is | 3:52:30 | 3:52:33 | |
Austria, where they have just
elected a rather unexpected head of | 3:52:33 | 3:52:40 | |
state. I give way to the honourable
gentleman. Wiki recognise to me that | 3:52:40 | 3:52:45 | |
most young people in Austria voted
for moderate parties, and actually | 3:52:45 | 3:52:48 | |
it was young people in Austria that
where the moderating force from the | 3:52:48 | 3:52:53 | |
latest research that has been
published, not a radicalising force? | 3:52:53 | 3:53:01 | |
I think what we must avoid getting
drawn into, actually, and I | 3:53:01 | 3:53:06 | |
apologise for this from myself as
well, is that we are choosing who | 3:53:06 | 3:53:10 | |
the franchise should be on the basis
of whether we like the way they | 3:53:10 | 3:53:13 | |
vote. I think we should exclude
that. Yes, yes, I accept that, but | 3:53:13 | 3:53:19 | |
that is not the basis on which we
should be choosing who vote on | 3:53:19 | 3:53:23 | |
general elections are in the other
-- in any other forum. I will give | 3:53:23 | 3:53:29 | |
way and then I will make some
progress. Does he not agree with me | 3:53:29 | 3:53:33 | |
that 16 and 17-year-olds, if they
are wise enough to be out on the | 3:53:33 | 3:53:37 | |
street, campaigning during the last
general election, then they are wise | 3:53:37 | 3:53:40 | |
enough to go and vote? Yes, we take
our children out campaigning with | 3:53:40 | 3:53:47 | |
us, but I don't think that's an
argument, and in fact it is even | 3:53:47 | 3:53:52 | |
arguable, if you take 16 and
17-year-olds out campaigning with | 3:53:52 | 3:53:55 | |
you, you have a duty of care to
those people because they are not | 3:53:55 | 3:53:58 | |
yet adults, and I will come to that.
Well my honourable friend give way? | 3:53:58 | 3:54:03 | |
I really do want to make progress
but I will give weight to my | 3:54:03 | 3:54:07 | |
honourable friend. Can I thank my
honourable friend for giving way? | 3:54:07 | 3:54:12 | |
And at least express my pleasure he
is putting out an essential | 3:54:12 | 3:54:17 | |
argument. Would he agree with me
that engaging young people in | 3:54:17 | 3:54:20 | |
politics is extremely important, and
therefore the element of this | 3:54:20 | 3:54:24 | |
private members bill which is very
significant is about the education | 3:54:24 | 3:54:28 | |
of young people in citizenship in
the Constitution? Would he agree | 3:54:28 | 3:54:31 | |
with me that that education is not
necessary to have the votes at 16 to | 3:54:31 | 3:54:36 | |
actually bring about what is, for me
and many others on this House, an | 3:54:36 | 3:54:40 | |
aborted engagement with young people
about the business of politics? I | 3:54:40 | 3:54:44 | |
totally agree -- and important
engagement. I agree with my | 3:54:44 | 3:54:49 | |
honourable friend a member on my
body. This is definitely conflating | 3:54:49 | 3:54:55 | |
two issues and I expect one is
trying to be a carrier for the other | 3:54:55 | 3:54:59 | |
in the argument for this bill. But
the point is the voting age is 18, | 3:54:59 | 3:55:03 | |
or in some cases older. And that is
in the vast majority of countries | 3:55:03 | 3:55:07 | |
around the world, including the
greatest democracies like the USA | 3:55:07 | 3:55:11 | |
and in very similar countries as a
role, such as Canada. The UK's | 3:55:11 | 3:55:15 | |
voting age is therefore in line with
the norm and does not suggest any | 3:55:15 | 3:55:21 | |
room for change. I will make some
progress now, I'm afraid. It is | 3:55:21 | 3:55:24 | |
worth noting that many of the
countries with a lower voting age, | 3:55:24 | 3:55:28 | |
including Brazil and Cuba and North
Korea, the lower voting age does not | 3:55:28 | 3:55:33 | |
guarantee a better democracy.
Polling shows this position is | 3:55:33 | 3:55:38 | |
supported by the public, and I think
this is the really significant | 3:55:38 | 3:55:42 | |
point. Polling carried out by YouGov
in 2013 that found that 60% of | 3:55:42 | 3:55:46 | |
British adults are against reducing
the voting age to 16. While only 20% | 3:55:46 | 3:55:54 | |
support that idea, 16% neither
support nor a pause, and 4% don't | 3:55:54 | 3:55:58 | |
know. This majority hold among
people -- neither support nor | 3:55:58 | 3:56:02 | |
oppose. This holds for 18-24
-year-olds against reducing the | 3:56:02 | 3:56:08 | |
voting age. The survey conducted
back in 2003 was even starker, so it | 3:56:08 | 3:56:17 | |
may be that opinion has shifted a
bit. When they were asked to choose | 3:56:17 | 3:56:21 | |
between a minimum legal age of 16 or
18 years, 78% said the minimum | 3:56:21 | 3:56:26 | |
voting age should remain at 18,
while only 22% said it should be | 3:56:26 | 3:56:31 | |
lowered to 16. Of those who said the
voting age should remain at 18, 30 | 3:56:31 | 3:56:36 | |
3% cited insufficient life
experience as being the primary | 3:56:36 | 3:56:42 | |
reason -- 33%. And others cited
immaturity. These are only opinions, | 3:56:42 | 3:56:45 | |
of course. I will give way. | 3:56:45 | 3:56:54 | |
Madame Deputy Speaker, let's put a
myth to bed in the chamber that | 3:56:54 | 3:57:00 | |
somehow 16 and 17-year-olds are
uninterested or uneducated in | 3:57:00 | 3:57:02 | |
politics. It is not that young
people are uninterested in politics, | 3:57:02 | 3:57:07 | |
it is that traditionally politics is
uninterest interested this young | 3:57:07 | 3:57:12 | |
people.
I have a son who from the age of six | 3:57:12 | 3:57:17 | |
was interested in politics but it
did not entitle him to a vote. | 3:57:17 | 3:57:22 | |
It is perfectly reasonable for 16
and 17-year-olds to be interested in | 3:57:22 | 3:57:27 | |
politics but not necessarily for it
to be wise to give them the vote. | 3:57:27 | 3:57:33 | |
Evidence taken by the poll committee
in 2014/2015 enforced the findings. | 3:57:33 | 3:57:42 | |
The committee received: Mixed
responses in the idea of extending | 3:57:42 | 3:57:47 | |
the franchise 2016 and 17-year-olds
with somewhat more supporting it | 3:57:47 | 3:57:52 | |
unchanged.
A strong theme was that young people | 3:57:52 | 3:57:56 | |
under the age of 18 lacked the
knowledge and life experience needed | 3:57:56 | 3:58:01 | |
to participate in the elections.
This question of maturity was | 3:58:01 | 3:58:06 | |
regarded by the Electoral Commission
when determining appropriate minimum | 3:58:06 | 3:58:10 | |
voting age. The lack of a single
definition of maturity, its multi-as | 3:58:10 | 3:58:17 | |
it Tated nature, difficulties
identity measurement and the varying | 3:58:17 | 3:58:23 | |
levels of maturity mean it is
challenging to grapple with, however | 3:58:23 | 3:58:31 | |
a paper from the University of
Oxford and Warwick sought to address | 3:58:31 | 3:58:35 | |
this point. It was found that the
data shows that young people are | 3:58:35 | 3:58:40 | |
less interested in politics than
older individuals. | 3:58:40 | 3:58:44 | |
They also know, I will finish the
point, they know less about politics | 3:58:44 | 3:58:48 | |
than older people and their views
are less consistent. Interest in | 3:58:48 | 3:58:54 | |
politics level of knowledge about
politics, consistency of views are | 3:58:54 | 3:58:58 | |
observed to increase with age. I
give way to the honourable lady. | 3:58:58 | 3:59:03 | |
On that point, I've been a teacher
for that entire time. It's been ten | 3:59:03 | 3:59:08 | |
years since that report was quoted.
Does he not agree that politics has | 3:59:08 | 3:59:12 | |
changed since then? I'm not sure
they have. But it is for her side of | 3:59:12 | 3:59:19 | |
the argument to present the evidence
that things have changed. I think | 3:59:19 | 3:59:23 | |
anecdotal evidence is not enough.
The evidence we have, clearly | 3:59:23 | 3:59:27 | |
suggests that young people are less
politically mature than older | 3:59:27 | 3:59:31 | |
people, therefore the voting age
should not be lowered 2016. An | 3:59:31 | 3:59:35 | |
argument put forward in favour of
lowering the voting age is that it | 3:59:35 | 3:59:42 | |
increases the voter levels of
turnout and participation of the | 3:59:42 | 3:59:45 | |
young in politics. Declining rates
in UK elections was a reason that | 3:59:45 | 3:59:52 | |
the Electoral Commission launched
the review of the voting age in | 3:59:52 | 3:59:57 | |
2003. And it could be explained that
the belief that politicians don't | 3:59:57 | 4:00:04 | |
listen and engage with young
people's concerns, the encouraging | 4:00:04 | 4:00:08 | |
and supporting young people to
engage with politics is clearly of | 4:00:08 | 4:00:12 | |
great importance of the I don't for
a second seek to undermine the | 4:00:12 | 4:00:18 | |
concerns. However lowering the
voting age 2016 will not boost voter | 4:00:18 | 4:00:23 | |
turnout because young people have
turned out to vote in elections in | 4:00:23 | 4:00:28 | |
lower levels than older people.
Extending the franchise | 4:00:28 | 4:00:34 | |
2016-year-olds would therefore serve
to lower the overall level of voter | 4:00:34 | 4:00:38 | |
turnout.
Three points to my honourable | 4:00:38 | 4:00:44 | |
friend. The turnout for the 16 and
17-year-olds is zero. If it were 06% | 4:00:44 | 4:00:51 | |
if they got the vote there would be
an increase, not a deduction. If we | 4:00:51 | 4:00:58 | |
are registered to vote at 18, the
average voting age is 20. If 16, the | 4:00:58 | 4:01:05 | |
average voting age would be 18,
would he' Green Party that could be | 4:01:05 | 4:01:09 | |
a sensible thing to do? There are
statistics and statistics, I will | 4:01:09 | 4:01:13 | |
put it that way in order not to be
unparliamentary. But the point I am | 4:01:13 | 4:01:18 | |
making is that the overall turnout
would be diluted by a lower turnout | 4:01:18 | 4:01:22 | |
that would be delivered by the
younger voters. | 4:01:22 | 4:01:27 | |
On levels, OK. Once more.
He seems to be making the argument | 4:01:27 | 4:01:34 | |
that the extension of the franchise
is linked to turnout. In local | 4:01:34 | 4:01:40 | |
Government elections turnout is
between 25 and 30%. So under his | 4:01:40 | 4:01:46 | |
argument, we should scrap the
elections for local government | 4:01:46 | 4:01:49 | |
entirely? No. Not at all. But
defeating the argument, I think, | 4:01:49 | 4:01:55 | |
successfully, that lowering the
voting age increases voters turnout. | 4:01:55 | 4:01:59 | |
It will not.
On the #4re68s of engagement of the | 4:01:59 | 4:02:05 | |
young with politics, there are ways
to do this without lowering the | 4:02:05 | 4:02:09 | |
voting age. Far important had we
must improve citizenship education, | 4:02:09 | 4:02:19 | |
to ensure that pupils understand the
UK political system and how we | 4:02:19 | 4:02:24 | |
participate in the systems of
government, to understand the role | 4:02:24 | 4:02:28 | |
of the law and the judicial system,
to development in volunteering and | 4:02:28 | 4:02:35 | |
participating in the activities of
political parties is very much open | 4:02:35 | 4:02:39 | |
to people below the voting age. And
to ensure that they are equipped | 4:02:39 | 4:02:43 | |
with the skills to think and debate
political questions. Initiatives | 4:02:43 | 4:02:48 | |
like our youth Parliament, founded
by the Conservative MP for Faversham | 4:02:48 | 4:02:57 | |
and Kent, to give young people a
voice have an important role to play | 4:02:57 | 4:03:02 | |
in increasing the participation of
young people in politics. According | 4:03:02 | 4:03:06 | |
to youth Parliament UK's website,
over 1 million young people have | 4:03:06 | 4:03:11 | |
voted in UK youth Parliament
elections in two years. This is a | 4:03:11 | 4:03:14 | |
success story. The youth Parliament
gives the young in the UK an | 4:03:14 | 4:03:19 | |
opportunity to be involved in the
democratic process and empowers them | 4:03:19 | 4:03:25 | |
to take positive action in their
local communities to tackle issues | 4:03:25 | 4:03:29 | |
of concern.
Madame Deputy Speaker, I feel | 4:03:29 | 4:03:37 | |
transposed, to about 100 years ago
when the people that resisted the | 4:03:37 | 4:03:41 | |
women's vote were coming out with
the same arguments of I maturity, | 4:03:41 | 4:03:49 | |
disinterest, that women would not
know that they were talking about. | 4:03:49 | 4:03:53 | |
Will you agree, that there are those
who are persistently making the case | 4:03:53 | 4:03:59 | |
for extending the franchise to women
that were then right, and this is a | 4:03:59 | 4:04:06 | |
similar argument.
. I disagree. It is a different | 4:04:06 | 4:04:12 | |
argument and in fact, members of my
family and members of everybody's | 4:04:12 | 4:04:17 | |
families will have been involved in
the times in pursuing the franchise | 4:04:17 | 4:04:22 | |
for women and we celebrate the fact
we have more women in Parliament | 4:04:22 | 4:04:25 | |
than ever. And she is having a go at
possibly the one Conservative MP who | 4:04:25 | 4:04:30 | |
thinks we will have to take
legislative action in order to get | 4:04:30 | 4:04:36 | |
equality, 50/50 in this House, men
and women. I really belief that will | 4:04:36 | 4:04:40 | |
happen one day. And I hope that she
will agree that will be necessary. | 4:04:40 | 4:04:44 | |
I will not get drawn.
A recent initiative is the national | 4:04:44 | 4:04:53 | |
citizens' service, which aims to
promote social cohesion, social | 4:04:53 | 4:04:58 | |
mobility and social engagement by
running an experience for 15 to | 4:04:58 | 4:05:02 | |
17-year-olds.
Another argument put forward in | 4:05:02 | 4:05:08 | |
favour of lowering the voting age is
that young people aged 16 to 17 can | 4:05:08 | 4:05:14 | |
drive, join the Armed Forces, marry
but cannot vote. The facts are half | 4:05:14 | 4:05:18 | |
truths. People can drive from 17,
not 16, although they can join the | 4:05:18 | 4:05:25 | |
Armed Forces and marry at 16, it is
with the parents' consent and in the | 4:05:25 | 4:05:33 | |
Armed Services cannot be deployed to
front line combat. And there are a | 4:05:33 | 4:05:38 | |
great many other things that they
cannot do, for example, to bye | 4:05:38 | 4:05:44 | |
alcohol and cigarettes, or is the
other side arguing that they should | 4:05:44 | 4:05:47 | |
be allowed to do so? They are not
treated as an adult in law, if | 4:05:47 | 4:05:55 | |
committing a crime they are dealt
with by youth courts and then | 4:05:55 | 4:06:04 | |
sentenced to young adult prisons.
Jury service, young people | 4:06:04 | 4:06:11 | |
overwhelmingly reject the notion of
sitting in judgment. Does he agree | 4:06:11 | 4:06:15 | |
that lowering the vote age would
create a bizarre discrepancy in this | 4:06:15 | 4:06:21 | |
matter? I do. All the examples make
it clear that society does not view | 4:06:21 | 4:06:30 | |
16-year-olds as full adults and
denying the right to vote is | 4:06:30 | 4:06:36 | |
therefore not an injustice akick to
denying the rights of women to vote, | 4:06:36 | 4:06:40 | |
that is absurd but it is a Kens of
the level of maturity. | 4:06:40 | 4:06:50 | |
The age at which we reach maturity
and come of age is a process. There | 4:06:50 | 4:06:55 | |
are a range of things as a society
that we say you must be 18 to do. | 4:06:55 | 4:07:02 | |
Trivial things like watching an 18
film at the cinema. So we are saying | 4:07:02 | 4:07:07 | |
that you should be able to now
choose your representative to the | 4:07:07 | 4:07:13 | |
country but can't watch 50 Shades of
Grey at the local cinema? There is | 4:07:13 | 4:07:20 | |
another argument. One of the
arguments put forward by Vote 16 is | 4:07:20 | 4:07:26 | |
that there is no taxation without
representation. This is important. | 4:07:26 | 4:07:33 | |
Upon which an entire continent was
liberated from British tyranny. But | 4:07:33 | 4:07:37 | |
I point out that the number of 16
and 17-year-olds pay being income | 4:07:37 | 4:07:41 | |
tax in the UK is small and most are
students. Therefore, those that are | 4:07:41 | 4:07:48 | |
working are earning small sums in
weekend or holiday jobs and not over | 4:07:48 | 4:07:53 | |
the income tax threshold. The vast
majority of 16 and 17-year-olds are | 4:07:53 | 4:08:01 | |
dependant financially on their
parents or guardians. | 4:08:01 | 4:08:06 | |
I think that I could be right, and
this is important, the taxation, | 4:08:06 | 4:08:13 | |
point, why I support it, and why I
was frustrated that the gentlemen | 4:08:13 | 4:08:19 | |
was unwilling to take this into
position, once you contribute to the | 4:08:19 | 4:08:27 | |
national insurance, you are then
more widely able to take into | 4:08:27 | 4:08:32 | |
consideration the wider point of
view. | 4:08:32 | 4:08:40 | |
And there is no inherent
relationship between driving, | 4:08:40 | 4:08:44 | |
voting, bying alcohol, and they are
not comparable. There is no reason | 4:08:44 | 4:08:49 | |
why someone acquires the right to
participate in all of the different | 4:08:49 | 4:08:53 | |
activities at the same age, surely
the important question is what is | 4:08:53 | 4:08:57 | |
the age at which people acquire the
right or duty concerned? So it would | 4:08:57 | 4:09:02 | |
be a great mistake to lower the
voting age 2016. Most 16 and | 4:09:02 | 4:09:07 | |
17-year-olds don't have the level of
political knowledge or maturity... | 4:09:07 | 4:09:17 | |
They also, I will give way to the
honourable lady. | 4:09:17 | 4:09:22 | |
I am grateful. He was praising the
youth councils that were voting and | 4:09:22 | 4:09:28 | |
had their own private vote and at
least they did not affect the adult | 4:09:28 | 4:09:33 | |
vote but in that vote they voted
almost unanimously for votes at 16. | 4:09:33 | 4:09:40 | |
1 million young people. It does feel
that the opposite side is | 4:09:40 | 4:09:44 | |
patronising young people. And for
seven years of austerity, young | 4:09:44 | 4:09:50 | |
people have had things taken away
from them. This is a chance for us | 4:09:50 | 4:09:53 | |
to give them hope and to empower
them. | 4:09:53 | 4:09:58 | |
Well the interesting thing about
young people, when they become | 4:09:58 | 4:10:02 | |
older, when they become 18 to
24-year-olds or 25 to 35-year-olds | 4:10:02 | 4:10:07 | |
they change their mind on this
question as to whether the young | 4:10:07 | 4:10:11 | |
should be allowed to vote. Older
voters are overwhelmingly against | 4:10:11 | 4:10:16 | |
giving younger people the vote.
I think that puts that matter to | 4:10:16 | 4:10:22 | |
bed. I repeat the point I made
earlier... Whatever the particular | 4:10:22 | 4:10:31 | |
political agenda may be of 16 and
17-year-olds, that does not | 4:10:31 | 4:10:36 | |
necessarily entitle them to the
privilege of the vote. | 4:10:36 | 4:10:43 | |
The, what is more, lowering the
voting age 2016 puts the UK out of | 4:10:43 | 4:10:48 | |
line with the precision in almost
all other established democracies in | 4:10:48 | 4:10:52 | |
the world as well as not being
supported by the public. | 4:10:52 | 4:10:55 | |
. The opposition seems rattled by
that argument. The arguments put | 4:10:55 | 4:11:08 | |
forward in favouring lowering the
age are weak and confused. No | 4:11:08 | 4:11:12 | |
relationship between the various
voting age related rights. Voting | 4:11:12 | 4:11:16 | |
age is not the key factor to
interest young people in politics. | 4:11:16 | 4:11:26 | |
We should expand the youth
Parliament. The evidence is when the | 4:11:26 | 4:11:30 | |
present generation of 16 and
17-year-olds become adults a | 4:11:30 | 4:11:34 | |
majority of them will support
keeping the voting age as it is. | 4:11:34 | 4:11:38 | |
Thank you. | 4:11:38 | 4:11:46 | |
In an Madame | 4:11:46 | 4:11:46 | |
it is a delay to set out our
position, given that in the gallery | 4:11:52 | 4:11:56 | |
we have so many young people
watching over our democracy. I just | 4:11:56 | 4:11:59 | |
worry about the message we may be
sending them with the way some | 4:11:59 | 4:12:05 | |
members have been behaving in the
chamber today. This is an | 4:12:05 | 4:12:09 | |
opportunity to extend the franchise
to one and a half million young | 4:12:09 | 4:12:11 | |
people whose decisions taken in this
House affect them and deserve a | 4:12:11 | 4:12:20 | |
place in our democracy. We will be
voting to extend this franchise | 4:12:20 | 4:12:23 | |
because we believe young people
should have a say over their future, | 4:12:23 | 4:12:25 | |
but this bill is not just about
that. It is also about education | 4:12:25 | 4:12:31 | |
because we believe an educated
electorate can make informed choices | 4:12:31 | 4:12:35 | |
and who could argue with that? If
history has taught us anything, I | 4:12:35 | 4:12:40 | |
shall just beginning, our past is
littered with bold actions, proud | 4:12:40 | 4:12:44 | |
speeches and even lives left to win
and defend the right to vote, so as | 4:12:44 | 4:12:48 | |
we celebrate 100 years of women's
suffrage, we have an opportunity to | 4:12:48 | 4:12:52 | |
reflect on how far we have, the
country, and the extent that | 4:12:52 | 4:12:56 | |
franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds,
because I believe the case has never | 4:12:56 | 4:13:01 | |
been stronger as within our UK now
16 and | 4:13:01 | 4:13:14 | |
17-year-olds do have a vote in local
elections in Scotland, but the | 4:13:23 | 4:13:26 | |
16-year-old who might vote in a
local election this year would then | 4:13:26 | 4:13:28 | |
be subsequently denied a vote in a
general election this year, and that | 4:13:28 | 4:13:31 | |
cannot be right. I will give way. I
am grateful to her for giving way | 4:13:31 | 4:13:34 | |
and she is making a powerful case.
Which he agree with me this is a | 4:13:34 | 4:13:37 | |
vital opportunity to amend our
democratic system where we are | 4:13:37 | 4:13:39 | |
currently letting down the people
who will live the longest, with many | 4:13:39 | 4:13:41 | |
of our decisions absolutely
undermining their futures? I agree | 4:13:41 | 4:13:43 | |
with the honourable lady and she
isn't it part of a coalition of five | 4:13:43 | 4:13:46 | |
parties on the opposition benches
who agree the time has come for | 4:13:46 | 4:13:48 | |
votes for 16 and 17-year-olds. The
experience in Scotland... I will | 4:13:48 | 4:13:50 | |
give way. I thank her for giving
way. Does she not see the inherent | 4:13:50 | 4:13:53 | |
contradiction in the bill before us?
In part one it says 16 and | 4:13:53 | 4:13:56 | |
17-year-olds ready to vote, but in
part two it implies because they are | 4:13:56 | 4:14:00 | |
in full-time education they need to
be taught about citizenship and | 4:14:00 | 4:14:03 | |
Constitution and are actually not
ready to vote. I don't believe there | 4:14:03 | 4:14:07 | |
is any contradiction in using the
opportunity to educate young people | 4:14:07 | 4:14:13 | |
and the next generation about
politics. If you're looking for any | 4:14:13 | 4:14:16 | |
contradiction it might be that
members opposite on the benches are | 4:14:16 | 4:14:20 | |
arguing against boats for 16 and
17-year-olds might yet allowing | 4:14:20 | 4:14:24 | |
16-year-olds to join the
Conservative Party and potentially | 4:14:24 | 4:14:27 | |
vote in the next leadership election
for the next Prime Minister of the | 4:14:27 | 4:14:31 | |
country, yet not for their local MP.
We saw in the Scottish referendum | 4:14:31 | 4:14:39 | |
75% of 16 and 17-year-olds turning
out to vote, and with the Welsh | 4:14:39 | 4:14:44 | |
Labour Government looking to extend
the franchise to young people they | 4:14:44 | 4:14:46 | |
are, we will soon be in this
ridiculous position where a | 4:14:46 | 4:14:49 | |
16-year-old living in Wales or
Scotland can be trusted to vote in | 4:14:49 | 4:14:52 | |
their local elections, but not in a
general election. It is vital we | 4:14:52 | 4:14:56 | |
have equal rights across the United
Kingdom, not only in referenda but | 4:14:56 | 4:15:01 | |
in devolved assemblies and local
Government. Votes for 16 is clearly | 4:15:01 | 4:15:04 | |
a priority for young people, as we
have heard from the youth Council. | 4:15:04 | 4:15:09 | |
Now is the time to support this as a
House. Thank you. Madame Deputy | 4:15:09 | 4:15:17 | |
Speaker, I am grateful to you on and
it is a pleasure to follow | 4:15:17 | 4:15:22 | |
particularly the evidence pack
speech of my honourable friend. I | 4:15:22 | 4:15:28 | |
have come here today to have a
serious debate about what I think is | 4:15:28 | 4:15:32 | |
a complex and difficult issue we do
have to examine from time to time, | 4:15:32 | 4:15:35 | |
but I'm afraid I was disappointed by
there, what's the word, bullish | 4:15:35 | 4:15:40 | |
approach by the proposer of the
bill, who sought to create division | 4:15:40 | 4:15:45 | |
in this House rather than to be
persuasive -- approach. I was | 4:15:45 | 4:15:49 | |
somewhat over the last few years who
could possibly have been persuaded, | 4:15:49 | 4:15:52 | |
but certainly not today, so I am
speaking in opposition to the debate | 4:15:52 | 4:15:56 | |
because I think it kicks off process
about which we should be concerned. | 4:15:56 | 4:16:00 | |
Broadly, as far as I can see, the
bill confuses the complex issue of | 4:16:00 | 4:16:07 | |
capacity. What young people should
be able to do, what they are capable | 4:16:07 | 4:16:12 | |
of doing, and what we should allow
them to do, and this is a | 4:16:12 | 4:16:16 | |
complicated and difficult area in
which a number of us struggled in | 4:16:16 | 4:16:22 | |
public policy over the last two
decades and the problem with this | 4:16:22 | 4:16:25 | |
bill and proposal is that it broadly
worked against the thrust of public | 4:16:25 | 4:16:29 | |
policy towards young people that has
happened in the last two decades. So | 4:16:29 | 4:16:34 | |
if you look for instance at
gambling, there has been a general | 4:16:34 | 4:16:41 | |
acceptance that gambling in early
age is a bad thing for young people | 4:16:41 | 4:16:44 | |
to do. It is a recognition that
there are two stages of brain | 4:16:44 | 4:16:50 | |
development for young people, the
first prior to six when the brain is | 4:16:50 | 4:16:55 | |
broadly form, 95% of it, but then in
adolescence when enormous changes | 4:16:55 | 4:16:59 | |
take place, and when we have to take
extreme care about how young people | 4:16:59 | 4:17:04 | |
develop. The science is with us on
this, that this is a period when the | 4:17:04 | 4:17:09 | |
operation of the brain, the practice
of people, habits, or form, so it is | 4:17:09 | 4:17:13 | |
important we look at that, and it
was decided some years ago that | 4:17:13 | 4:17:17 | |
forbidding those people, aged under
18, from gambling, was desirable in | 4:17:17 | 4:17:23 | |
order to inculcate and educate them
and get their brains functioning in | 4:17:23 | 4:17:26 | |
a way that meant they were less
likely to do it in older age, and of | 4:17:26 | 4:17:29 | |
course what this bill would do is
create the ridiculous situation | 4:17:29 | 4:17:32 | |
where a young person would be able
to vote, but not place a wager on | 4:17:32 | 4:17:36 | |
the outcome of the action in which
they were voting, which seems | 4:17:36 | 4:17:40 | |
extraordinary to me. In a moment, in
a moment. There are all manner of | 4:17:40 | 4:17:45 | |
areas where this would be the case,
and for those of us who have worked | 4:17:45 | 4:17:49 | |
closely with some of the charities
concerned in this area, for example | 4:17:49 | 4:17:55 | |
the Children's Society, to identify
16 and 17-year-olds is a | 4:17:55 | 4:17:59 | |
particularly vulnerable group
requiring protection, this is | 4:17:59 | 4:18:02 | |
concerned. I will give way. My
honourable friend has used a very | 4:18:02 | 4:18:06 | |
good example. Does he agree with me
that other examples are for instance | 4:18:06 | 4:18:10 | |
consuming and alcohol? We increased
the age where you could purchase | 4:18:10 | 4:18:17 | |
cigarettes. All those things are
very important and have been proven | 4:18:17 | 4:18:22 | |
as beneficiaries to people's health.
The honourable lady makes a very | 4:18:22 | 4:18:28 | |
strong point. Yes, sir. I thank the
honourable member for giving way. Is | 4:18:28 | 4:18:36 | |
the honourable member seriously
suggesting voting at 16 or 17 is | 4:18:36 | 4:18:40 | |
somehow bad for your health other
than the Tory Party? Well, I think | 4:18:40 | 4:18:48 | |
the honourable gentleman knows that
is exactly what I am not saying, but | 4:18:48 | 4:18:51 | |
what I am saying is and this is, to
be honest with you, this is the main | 4:18:51 | 4:18:56 | |
thrust of my concern about this
particular measure. You are kicking | 4:18:56 | 4:19:00 | |
off an inevitable process that may
expose people who are 16 and 17, | 4:19:00 | 4:19:05 | |
young people, the harm. I cannot
see... | 4:19:05 | 4:19:09 | |
LAUGHTER
I cannot see how you can give | 4:19:09 | 4:19:14 | |
someone the vote at 16 and then deny
them all the other capabilities and | 4:19:14 | 4:19:19 | |
abilities of adult hood. Yes. I am
very grateful to my honourable | 4:19:19 | 4:19:25 | |
friend for giving way. Did he, like
me, see the reported comments, and | 4:19:25 | 4:19:29 | |
I'm sure the honourable gentleman
can tell us if they are not true, on | 4:19:29 | 4:19:34 | |
where the proposer of the bill has
gone? He seems to have disappeared | 4:19:34 | 4:19:37 | |
from his own debate. It was
reported, Madame Deputy Speaker, | 4:19:37 | 4:19:46 | |
that when he was trying to explain
away the comments of his then | 4:19:46 | 4:19:50 | |
honourable friend the member for
Sheffield Hallam, he said he was | 4:19:50 | 4:19:53 | |
young and silly, he was too immature
to know any better, when he was in | 4:19:53 | 4:19:57 | |
his 20! -- 20s! And this is the man
now proposing a bill to reduce the | 4:19:57 | 4:20:03 | |
voting age to 16. Wouldn't he see
some inconsistencies somewhere in | 4:20:03 | 4:20:08 | |
that approach? The honourable
gentleman rightly puts his finger on | 4:20:08 | 4:20:11 | |
the broad point I am trying to make,
which is that this bill injects yet | 4:20:11 | 4:20:16 | |
more inconsistency into what is
already a confusing area of public | 4:20:16 | 4:20:21 | |
policy. And one where a number of
governments have struggled and where | 4:20:21 | 4:20:26 | |
it has been opened up, exposing
people to harm, developmental | 4:20:26 | 4:20:31 | |
experiences which may not be in
their best interests, this is part | 4:20:31 | 4:20:34 | |
of the problem, and I would have
more respect for the bill and the | 4:20:34 | 4:20:38 | |
honourable gentleman if he brought
aboard and tried to bring some | 4:20:38 | 4:20:42 | |
regularity and logic and evidence to
this, rather than just assertion and | 4:20:42 | 4:20:47 | |
emotion. Thank you, Madame Deputy
Speaker. I thank my very good friend | 4:20:47 | 4:20:50 | |
for allowing me to intervene. I have
commanded an infantry battalion | 4:20:50 | 4:20:55 | |
going on operations. I have had
soldiers plead with me to allow them | 4:20:55 | 4:21:01 | |
to come. They were 17 years and
three quarters in age. And I had to | 4:21:01 | 4:21:08 | |
turn them down, because the law
said, no one under 18 should go to | 4:21:08 | 4:21:13 | |
war. I agree with that. I don't
agree with 16-year-olds being able | 4:21:13 | 4:21:18 | |
to send anyone over 18 to war but
not go themselves. The Right | 4:21:18 | 4:21:30 | |
Honourable and gallant gentleman
makes a very strong point, and we | 4:21:30 | 4:21:32 | |
should think - we have to think
carefully in this house about the | 4:21:32 | 4:21:39 | |
consequences of what might seem like
relatively small editor -- | 4:21:39 | 4:21:46 | |
legislative changes, and what may
come. It would be the case, I cannot | 4:21:46 | 4:21:51 | |
see how you can give the vote to a
16-year-old and deny them the | 4:21:51 | 4:21:54 | |
ability to buy a knife, the ability
to drink alcohol, buy cigarettes, by | 4:21:54 | 4:22:01 | |
fireworks, watch Canadian film,
access pornography, allow them to | 4:22:01 | 4:22:04 | |
leave school if they choose, get a
tattoo -- watch an 18 film. Get a | 4:22:04 | 4:22:13 | |
mortgage, get tenancy, they can't do
jury service, be a magistrate, and | 4:22:13 | 4:22:17 | |
critically and possibly this is the
most important point, how can you | 4:22:17 | 4:22:21 | |
give somebody a vote in an election
in which they are not themselves | 4:22:21 | 4:22:24 | |
able to stand as a Member of
Parliament? I thank my honourable | 4:22:24 | 4:22:31 | |
friend for giving way. Does he agree
with me that perhaps it is time that | 4:22:31 | 4:22:34 | |
we should consider that, as he knows
I am a passionate advocate for no | 4:22:34 | 4:22:40 | |
taxation without representation,
that those under 18 who we wish to | 4:22:40 | 4:22:43 | |
seek staying in education or
training and that is part of the | 4:22:43 | 4:22:46 | |
developmental policy talks about,
that we should actually stop | 4:22:46 | 4:22:49 | |
taxation for those under 18 in that
whole framework? I completely agree | 4:22:49 | 4:22:55 | |
with her, and as I said repeatedly,
in my view, this House needs to look | 4:22:55 | 4:23:00 | |
at the issue in a much wider context
and look at it much more consistency | 4:23:00 | 4:23:07 | |
-- consistently. Members have jumped
up and down in this place and I have | 4:23:07 | 4:23:10 | |
heard them time and time again,
talking about greater protection for | 4:23:10 | 4:23:13 | |
16 and 17-year-olds, and the problem
with extending the franchise to them | 4:23:13 | 4:23:17 | |
is I just don't think you could
maintain the idea that they are | 4:23:17 | 4:23:20 | |
somehow a second-class citizen,
having made them a first-class | 4:23:20 | 4:23:23 | |
citizen in terms of voting. The
latest one we have is around the | 4:23:23 | 4:23:26 | |
rise of e-cigarettes, so this House
decided in its wisdom that people | 4:23:26 | 4:23:34 | |
under 18 could not buy e-cigarettes,
they are not allowed vape, and more | 4:23:34 | 4:23:38 | |
than that, you are not allowed to
use and e-cigarette or smoke and are | 4:23:38 | 4:23:42 | |
with somebody who is 16 or 17
because it is bad for their health. | 4:23:42 | 4:23:46 | |
I just don't see how logical you can
maintain that position. In a moment. | 4:23:46 | 4:23:49 | |
You can give somebody the vote, and
they may be able to vote for | 4:23:49 | 4:23:53 | |
somebody who will campaign and enact
legislation that will bring those | 4:23:53 | 4:23:57 | |
harmful things to bear upon them,
and this is the fundamental | 4:23:57 | 4:24:02 | |
inconsistency... A number of members
have spoken about gradations of | 4:24:02 | 4:24:05 | |
development and it is certainly true
that different people develop at | 4:24:05 | 4:24:08 | |
different times. And we all know, as
I said, that the brain particularly | 4:24:08 | 4:24:14 | |
developed strongly during
adolescence. It starts at the back, | 4:24:14 | 4:24:16 | |
moves to the front, and those of you
medically minded will know that the | 4:24:16 | 4:24:19 | |
science proves this. Our system of
capacity has evolved over the years | 4:24:19 | 4:24:26 | |
to recognise that, so different
capacities at different ages is | 4:24:26 | 4:24:29 | |
designed to recognise that. I think
that is illogical, makes no sense to | 4:24:29 | 4:24:34 | |
me, and I welcome the idea we should
decide on online but level | 4:24:34 | 4:24:38 | |
everything up to it, and for me that
age is 18. As the right honourable | 4:24:38 | 4:24:45 | |
member said, 18 is generally
accepted across the world and I | 4:24:45 | 4:24:48 | |
think we should do the same. He has
made a very good speech and I have | 4:24:48 | 4:24:51 | |
to say that all reasonableness and
balance is in big contrast with the | 4:24:51 | 4:24:54 | |
beginning, but if you level
everything that would include the | 4:24:54 | 4:24:59 | |
age of consent, of course, with all
its indications, but is he also | 4:24:59 | 4:25:03 | |
saying that we should remove, say,
national insurance payments from | 4:25:03 | 4:25:07 | |
under 18, and that if we keep them
they must have a say? Is that what | 4:25:07 | 4:25:13 | |
he is saying? No, I think
underratings should not participate | 4:25:13 | 4:25:17 | |
in the taxation system at all,
Norma. Many of them are lower paid | 4:25:17 | 4:25:21 | |
and gold. It is a very small number
who actually pay tax -- at all, no. | 4:25:21 | 4:25:26 | |
I think because they are low paid
they shouldn't necessarily pay tax | 4:25:26 | 4:25:30 | |
as other people do, but the current
system we have is very confusing. It | 4:25:30 | 4:25:34 | |
gives the indication that at some
stages they are adults, and that | 4:25:34 | 4:25:40 | |
some they and that may be a
reflection of reality, and some of | 4:25:40 | 4:25:45 | |
you who have lived with the teenager
will know, at time to time they | 4:25:45 | 4:25:48 | |
appear mature, then they will be a
logical, emotional, and do | 4:25:48 | 4:25:53 | |
something, and that recognises the
developmental process they are going | 4:25:53 | 4:25:55 | |
through. I will give way. I am
grateful to him for giving way. I | 4:25:55 | 4:25:59 | |
wonder if he's actually listening to
some of the argument he is making, | 4:25:59 | 4:26:02 | |
because to be honest, he said of the
argument are sounding increasingly | 4:26:02 | 4:26:07 | |
desperate, and it really did get an
idea, when we just heard the member | 4:26:07 | 4:26:12 | |
over the saying you shouldn't have
16-year-olds sending people to fight | 4:26:12 | 4:26:15 | |
when they can't fight themselves, so
on that same principle we shouldn't | 4:26:15 | 4:26:19 | |
have over 65s having the vote either
because they will not go out and | 4:26:19 | 4:26:23 | |
fight to stop could he please be a
little more reasonable? I'm not | 4:26:23 | 4:26:29 | |
desperate, particularly. I'm just
trying to illustrate to the House | 4:26:29 | 4:26:32 | |
that we need to take care about the
process we are kicking off, that if | 4:26:32 | 4:26:39 | |
we allowed 16 and 17-year-olds to
have the vote, it becomes harder, | 4:26:39 | 4:26:44 | |
much harder, to place restrictions
on what they are able to do, what | 4:26:44 | 4:26:48 | |
people can expose them to, and what
their capacity is. | 4:26:48 | 4:26:56 | |
He is making a logical speech. It is
shame he is not afforded the | 4:26:56 | 4:27:02 | |
courtesy of a fair hearing but did
he read the article, where it was | 4:27:02 | 4:27:09 | |
spotted, the contradictions from the
party opposite who raced the age | 4:27:09 | 4:27:13 | |
limit from 16 to 18 for all sorts of
things, some sensible, some less so, | 4:27:13 | 4:27:21 | |
some peculiar... ? It was a
remarkable article. But it points to | 4:27:21 | 4:27:29 | |
the issue of policy confusion. There
are members on that side of the | 4:27:29 | 4:27:33 | |
House, shouting at me today about
lowering the age of consent, sorry, | 4:27:33 | 4:27:40 | |
the franchise 2016 but will have
voted to stop these very people | 4:27:40 | 4:27:45 | |
lying on sunbeds. That's exactly
right. This is the problem at the | 4:27:45 | 4:27:50 | |
crux: It is not as simple as
extending the franchise. There is a | 4:27:50 | 4:27:57 | |
wider policy framework to consider.
. You cannot extend the Franchise | 4:27:57 | 4:28:05 | |
and deny all of the bubbles of
adulthood to people who you have | 4:28:05 | 4:28:11 | |
allowed the vote when they are 16
and 17. | 4:28:11 | 4:28:14 | |
. I rise as an honorary present of
the British youth council, a former | 4:28:14 | 4:28:22 | |
President of NUS and a mill ennial.
There is a desperate attempt to stop | 4:28:22 | 4:28:27 | |
people moving to a vote on this
motion. | 4:28:27 | 4:28:30 | |
I want to nail the fallacy that
young people aged 16 and 17 don't | 4:28:30 | 4:28:35 | |
have the maturity to vote. We have
heard about the things that 16 and | 4:28:35 | 4:28:39 | |
17-year-olds can do. We have heard
voting compared with gambling, drugs | 4:28:39 | 4:28:45 | |
and alcohol. Now I know it is
customary for the members to gamble | 4:28:45 | 4:28:49 | |
with the country's future when they
put bills forward, in fact, | 4:28:49 | 4:28:55 | |
sometimes people look at government
policies and wonder if people have | 4:28:55 | 4:28:59 | |
been taking drugs when producing
them! I know for certain... A point | 4:28:59 | 4:29:05 | |
of order Mr Malt house.
I wanted your advice if it is in | 4:29:05 | 4:29:13 | |
order for the honourable gentlemen
to misrepresent my speech. | 4:29:13 | 4:29:18 | |
He said I was come pairing granting
the vote 2016 and 17-year-olds with | 4:29:18 | 4:29:23 | |
gambling, I absolutely was not. No.
I was merely saying what, what I was | 4:29:23 | 4:29:30 | |
saying, he was obviously not
listening, he is my select committee | 4:29:30 | 4:29:36 | |
colleague, he normally listening to
what I say but what I was saying | 4:29:36 | 4:29:42 | |
was, if you allow... I have the
gives of the honourable gentleman's | 4:29:42 | 4:29:51 | |
point it is not a point of order, it
is a point of debate. The honourable | 4:29:51 | 4:29:57 | |
gentleman is enter pretting when the
honourable gentleman said. There is | 4:29:57 | 4:30:03 | |
disagreement between the honourable
gentleman and honourable gentleman, | 4:30:03 | 4:30:07 | |
it is what I expect in a debate of
this kind. I hope that the | 4:30:07 | 4:30:14 | |
honourable gentleman will redress
what he said. But it is there in | 4:30:14 | 4:30:18 | |
Hansard for everyone to read.
In general terms I said people | 4:30:18 | 4:30:24 | |
compared the risk of voting at 16
and 17 to gambling, drugs and | 4:30:24 | 4:30:28 | |
alcohol. Ministers may well gamble
with the country's future when | 4:30:28 | 4:30:32 | |
passing votes, when looking at the
quality of judgments, people wonder | 4:30:32 | 4:30:37 | |
if they have been smoking something,
and occasionally, honourable and | 4:30:37 | 4:30:43 | |
Right Honourable members are in the
bar before casting votes but however | 4:30:43 | 4:30:50 | |
dangerous voting can be from time to
time, I hope that it is not a risk | 4:30:50 | 4:30:55 | |
to the public health in a way that
has been described. | 4:30:55 | 4:31:00 | |
There was a tweet: Hope Parliament
passes a vote at 16. I was against | 4:31:00 | 4:31:03 | |
it at 16 on the grounds that half of
the people I knew were idiots but | 4:31:03 | 4:31:10 | |
age doesn't change that! A perfectly
reasonable point and the final thing | 4:31:10 | 4:31:16 | |
I wish to say, is this turnout
fallacy, no-one is suggesting or | 4:31:16 | 4:31:20 | |
reasonably suggesting that votes at
16 and 17 in and ofsets increases | 4:31:20 | 4:31:25 | |
turnout and participation in our
democracy but it does improve | 4:31:25 | 4:31:29 | |
turnout in one very important way,
it's the difference not whether 16 | 4:31:29 | 4:31:35 | |
and 17-year-olds wild turn out and
vote for us but whether we as | 4:31:35 | 4:31:40 | |
Members of Parliament will finally
begin to turn out and vote for them, | 4:31:40 | 4:31:45 | |
their interests, their education,
their rights to access to housing | 4:31:45 | 4:31:50 | |
and to close the disgraceful gap in
power, wealth and opportunity | 4:31:50 | 4:31:56 | |
between the oldest and the youngest.
That is what we are debating today. | 4:31:56 | 4:32:02 | |
I hope that voting at 16 finally has
its moment to pass into law. | 4:32:02 | 4:32:07 | |
Now, I am delighted that we are
having a robust debate about | 4:32:07 | 4:32:12 | |
democracy. May I say, though, to the
honourable member for Weston Royton, | 4:32:12 | 4:32:18 | |
you caused me to change my speech. I
was going to talk to the House about | 4:32:18 | 4:32:24 | |
Roman democracy and the influence of
the Napoleonic code, instead... I | 4:32:24 | 4:32:31 | |
find it disappointing he spent 13
minutes speaking nonsense and | 4:32:31 | 4:32:37 | |
partisan speechifying rather than
dealing with the substance of the | 4:32:37 | 4:32:40 | |
argument! It is a great shame that
young people, who are watching this, | 4:32:40 | 4:32:46 | |
in the public gallery, and on
television, have had to see, | 4:32:46 | 4:32:51 | |
frankly, the House, not at its best.
Not as it was in the debate earlier, | 4:32:51 | 4:32:56 | |
I believe he was not in, where there
was a feeling on consensus on the | 4:32:56 | 4:33:01 | |
need to improve mental health and
the treatment of mentally ill people | 4:33:01 | 4:33:08 | |
in mental units, yesterday another
debate, where there was a consensual | 4:33:08 | 4:33:12 | |
tone on the debate, the issue of
child refugees, instead he has | 4:33:12 | 4:33:19 | |
chosen to hi-jack the representation
of the young in this country with a | 4:33:19 | 4:33:23 | |
partisan speech. That is not good
politics. And may I say I have the | 4:33:23 | 4:33:27 | |
pleasure of two constituents who
work in a university in my county | 4:33:27 | 4:33:31 | |
who teach politics to young people.
I would be interested to hear their | 4:33:31 | 4:33:36 | |
views on how they feel this debate
has gone today. | 4:33:36 | 4:33:40 | |
More than the partisan nature of it,
would my honourable friend agree | 4:33:40 | 4:33:46 | |
with me I didn't hear the honourable
gentleman proposing the bill making | 4:33:46 | 4:33:52 | |
a substantive argument for changing
the law. That is what most | 4:33:52 | 4:33:59 | |
disappointed me, as well as my
honourable friend? Absolutely. I | 4:33:59 | 4:34:05 | |
gave up any after 13 minutes but I
now try to move on to a point of | 4:34:05 | 4:34:11 | |
what I hope is consensus, the
honourable gentleman is welcome to | 4:34:11 | 4:34:15 | |
intervene if he wishes about trying
to find a point of consensus, he is | 4:34:15 | 4:34:22 | |
shaking his head - we all must
encourage young people, not just 16 | 4:34:22 | 4:34:28 | |
and 17-year-olds but 18-year-olds,
20-year-olds, 35-year-olds, we must | 4:34:28 | 4:34:32 | |
encourage young people to take an
interest in our politics. There are | 4:34:32 | 4:34:36 | |
many ways in which we can do this. I
think one of the best, in a moment, | 4:34:36 | 4:34:41 | |
thank you, one of the best way, the
best parts of this privilege, this | 4:34:41 | 4:34:48 | |
role, is to invite schoolchildren
and young people into this | 4:34:48 | 4:34:52 | |
Parliament. When they see this
chamber, when they see the magic of | 4:34:52 | 4:34:59 | |
this building, when they see people
having a good, frank debate, it | 4:34:59 | 4:35:04 | |
brings the politics alive in a way
that I wish we could reach out to | 4:35:04 | 4:35:08 | |
the whole population. But the other
thing, in a moment, thank you but | 4:35:08 | 4:35:13 | |
the other thing is visiting schools.
I made a promise in the 2015 | 4:35:13 | 4:35:20 | |
campaign to visit all 54 schools in
my constituency, by the time of the | 4:35:20 | 4:35:25 | |
next election. That was 2015, sadly,
the election came sooner than I was | 4:35:25 | 4:35:33 | |
hoping but I have reiterated the
promise I think we should as | 4:35:33 | 4:35:38 | |
representatives reach out to people
in our constituencies and discuss | 4:35:38 | 4:35:44 | |
their issues, answer their questions
and involve them in that way. Now, I | 4:35:44 | 4:35:47 | |
was delighted a couple of weeks ago
to welcome the St Michael's Church | 4:35:47 | 4:35:54 | |
of England primary school, where we
had seven, eight, nine-year-olds in | 4:35:54 | 4:35:58 | |
Parliament. And soon another school
is coming to visit. I will send them | 4:35:58 | 4:36:03 | |
coppice of Hansard so that they can
see the important role that they | 4:36:03 | 4:36:07 | |
play in this House as far as I'm
concerned. But 18 is the age at | 4:36:07 | 4:36:13 | |
which, civilic, the rights and the
is that we enjoy, that is the age | 4:36:13 | 4:36:18 | |
that they fall on our shoulders. At
16, yes, you can get married but | 4:36:18 | 4:36:25 | |
with the permission of your parents
and the armed force but with the | 4:36:25 | 4:36:29 | |
permission of your parents. You
cannot even leave school. The law | 4:36:29 | 4:36:33 | |
requires you to stay in education or
training. At 16, you cannot buy a | 4:36:33 | 4:36:39 | |
house, knife, cigarette, alcohol,
nor fireworks, nor place a bet... | 4:36:39 | 4:36:44 | |
Use a sunbed a nor can adults smoke
in a car in which you are present, | 4:36:44 | 4:36:56 | |
that is not because gnawed it is
because we as a legislative body | 4:36:56 | 4:37:01 | |
have said that people under the age
of 18 need extra protections. | 4:37:01 | 4:37:06 | |
I agree with the honourable lady
when she says we must seek | 4:37:06 | 4:37:13 | |
imaginative ways of involving the
young in politics. Does she agree | 4:37:13 | 4:37:17 | |
that the contributions seen from the
16 and the 17-year-olds in the | 4:37:17 | 4:37:22 | |
Scottish referendum were amongst the
most informed, enthusiastic and | 4:37:22 | 4:37:26 | |
incisive and brought a new spirit
and young people into politics is | 4:37:26 | 4:37:29 | |
that not what we should be seeking
to do? I'm delighted that the | 4:37:29 | 4:37:35 | |
honourable lady raced that, that is
the final point of the speech. I | 4:37:35 | 4:37:39 | |
will run up to that. I have the
answer to it. At 18, at 18, most | 4:37:39 | 4:37:50 | |
importantly, civilic rights, the
right to vote comes civic | 4:37:50 | 4:37:54 | |
responsibility. At 18 for the first
time you can sit on a jury. You can | 4:37:54 | 4:37:59 | |
sit in judgment on your peers. What
does that mean? It means an | 4:37:59 | 4:38:06 | |
18-year-old can be called up to the
Old Bailey down the river and sit in | 4:38:06 | 4:38:10 | |
judgment on a teenage peer accused
of murder, now, when we say, when we | 4:38:10 | 4:38:17 | |
talk about 16-year-olds having a
right and so on, how on earth can we | 4:38:17 | 4:38:21 | |
give them the privilege of voting in
our democracy and it is a privilege, | 4:38:21 | 4:38:28 | |
and one in which I think we should
be tougher with regards to the | 4:38:28 | 4:38:33 | |
requirements to vote, how can we say
that you have that right yet not the | 4:38:33 | 4:38:38 | |
responsibility of sitting on a jury?
Could I on the point she is making, | 4:38:38 | 4:38:44 | |
when the United Nations drew up the
UN convention on the rights of the | 4:38:44 | 4:38:49 | |
child, which almost every country in
the world, has signed up, other than | 4:38:49 | 4:38:53 | |
the United States, there was a
debate on child protection and when | 4:38:53 | 4:38:58 | |
you become an adult, every country
in the entire world you cans with | 4:38:58 | 4:39:03 | |
very different cultures came to the
conclusion that 18 was the right age | 4:39:03 | 4:39:08 | |
for a child to become an adult. That
was then and it was always concluded | 4:39:08 | 4:39:15 | |
that was is appropriate age that you
turn into an adult. | 4:39:15 | 4:39:20 | |
I completely agree with my
honourable friend it goes to the | 4:39:20 | 4:39:24 | |
point about protecting. I am not
saying that 16-year-olds are not | 4:39:24 | 4:39:33 | |
capable of forming judgments but I
promised on that point he is exactly | 4:39:33 | 4:39:39 | |
right it is a the grade of
protections moving away until we | 4:39:39 | 4:39:44 | |
reach the age of 18.
I am inclined to agree with her | 4:39:44 | 4:39:51 | |
model of civilic rights and where
they should be merged. At the age of | 4:39:51 | 4:39:59 | |
17 you may be suggesting that those
are disenfranchised because they no | 4:39:59 | 4:40:08 | |
longer have those civic rights? I'm
sorry, I did not hear that point. | 4:40:08 | 4:40:14 | |
Order. This is not acceptable, if
the person on the floor cannot hear | 4:40:14 | 4:40:20 | |
the intervention from the person on
the other side of the House, then | 4:40:20 | 4:40:23 | |
there is something wrong in the
chamber, people must be quiet to | 4:40:23 | 4:40:27 | |
debate properly.
Would the honourable gentleman like | 4:40:27 | 4:40:33 | |
to re-make his intervention? I think
that at the age of 17 when you can | 4:40:33 | 4:40:37 | |
no longer serve on a jury, I am
suggesting that the honourable laid | 4:40:37 | 4:40:42 | |
might want to reduce the argument?
Sorry, I thought you said 17? It | 4:40:42 | 4:40:52 | |
would be a bold politicians who
wants to take those rights away from | 4:40:52 | 4:41:06 | |
someone who is 70, so sorry, I
thought you said 17. | 4:41:06 | 4:41:11 | |
By the age of 70 you will have had
more than 50 years' worth of being | 4:41:11 | 4:41:20 | |
available for civic duty and you are
discharged... | 4:41:20 | 4:41:23 | |
INAUDIBLE
You don't lose rights, you have had | 4:41:23 | 4:41:27 | |
more than 50 years' worth of civic
responsibility. I think that is the | 4:41:27 | 4:41:32 | |
difference between 16 and
17-year-olds and people aged over | 4:41:32 | 4:41:35 | |
70. The point has been made about
taxation, my honourable friend for | 4:41:35 | 4:41:43 | |
South Suffolk made a point about
national insurance. If you are aged | 4:41:43 | 4:41:47 | |
16 you can pay national insurance.
At the risk of worrying the | 4:41:47 | 4:41:52 | |
Chancellor in the run-up to the
Budget, I can see merit if people | 4:41:52 | 4:41:57 | |
don't have the society at 18, then
that element should be taken away | 4:41:57 | 4:42:02 | |
from them. I appreciate that merit.
But I tell you the evidence that I | 4:42:02 | 4:42:08 | |
use to support that, which is that
16 and 17-year-olds are exempted | 4:42:08 | 4:42:13 | |
from paying Council Tax. So it seems
there is already a precedent for | 4:42:13 | 4:42:20 | |
extending that further. The final
point to answer the honourable lady | 4:42:20 | 4:42:25 | |
who made the intervention earlier, I
do not see how we can say that | 4:42:25 | 4:42:31 | |
someone can vote to elect their
representative in this place and yet | 4:42:31 | 4:42:36 | |
not have the privilege open to them
of standing for Parliament in this | 4:42:36 | 4:42:41 | |
place. It would be like saying you
cannot vote for yourself. You may | 4:42:41 | 4:42:50 | |
have been born and bred in your
constituency, and spent your life | 4:42:50 | 4:42:54 | |
there but you can't stand in
Parliament to represent that | 4:42:54 | 4:42:58 | |
constituency. | 4:42:58 | 4:43:02 | |
That is the first complement other
day and I appreciate it. People who | 4:43:02 | 4:43:06 | |
have been bankrupt are not allowed
to stand for this place. Does she | 4:43:06 | 4:43:10 | |
think they should have the boots
stripped from them as well? Crikey. | 4:43:10 | 4:43:15 | |
-- does she think they should have
this vote stripped from them? | 4:43:15 | 4:43:20 | |
Turning the other way, are we really
comparing 16 and 17-year-olds to | 4:43:20 | 4:43:25 | |
bankrupt? No. Again, bankruptcy is a
form of civic responsibility, again, | 4:43:25 | 4:43:31 | |
so it is right taken away from you,
to become a director of a company | 4:43:31 | 4:43:37 | |
and so on, because of your behaviour
-- bankruptcy, and it is a form. I'm | 4:43:37 | 4:43:42 | |
not saying 16 and 17-year-olds don't
deserve the right to vote because of | 4:43:42 | 4:43:46 | |
their behaviour, but I'm saying it
is not consistent with this civic | 4:43:46 | 4:43:49 | |
responsibilities that meet the right
to vote, that is my argument. I | 4:43:49 | 4:43:54 | |
mean, this is a very wide ranging
debate, Madame Deputy Speaker. On | 4:43:54 | 4:43:58 | |
this side. That's unfair, sorry. But
I hope that if nothing else young | 4:43:58 | 4:44:07 | |
people watching this are seeing the
intricacies of the arguments between | 4:44:07 | 4:44:11 | |
the two schools of thought, and I
hope very much that we will continue | 4:44:11 | 4:44:17 | |
to debate this in the years ahead,
but I have to say, as a word of | 4:44:17 | 4:44:22 | |
advice to the honourable member for
Golden West, if he wants to persuade | 4:44:22 | 4:44:27 | |
members of this House as the --
Oldham West. As to the strength of | 4:44:27 | 4:44:32 | |
his arguments, then he really must
do it better next time. Thank you, | 4:44:32 | 4:44:41 | |
Madame Deputy Speaker. I am honoured
to speak in this debate because when | 4:44:41 | 4:44:43 | |
I was elected in June it was not my
first time in this place. I was here | 4:44:43 | 4:44:49 | |
in 2009 during the UK youth
Parliament youth debate where we | 4:44:49 | 4:44:52 | |
were arguing for votes at 16, and
now is a 27-year-old I have not | 4:44:52 | 4:44:57 | |
changed my mind on that issue. I was
recently at a high school in my | 4:44:57 | 4:45:03 | |
constituency and I asked young
people there if they agreed with | 4:45:03 | 4:45:06 | |
votes at 16, and why. They told me
it is very important to them because | 4:45:06 | 4:45:12 | |
they are growing into a society, and
this Government, if it lasts the | 4:45:12 | 4:45:17 | |
year, will be making decisions that
affect their job prospects, a safety | 4:45:17 | 4:45:21 | |
net for them if something should go
wrong, how money is spent when they | 4:45:21 | 4:45:25 | |
pay tax, and how their society
works, but they are not able to | 4:45:25 | 4:45:29 | |
elect the Government that will make
these such critical decisions on | 4:45:29 | 4:45:33 | |
their lives. I would love to refute
some of the horrendous allegations | 4:45:33 | 4:45:38 | |
made against young people that have
come from members opposite, but | 4:45:38 | 4:45:42 | |
there are so many that I simply do
not have time. No, I will not give | 4:45:42 | 4:45:46 | |
way. What I would like to do is take
the message from my young | 4:45:46 | 4:45:53 | |
constituents to the House today. No
thank you. Young people are not too | 4:45:53 | 4:45:59 | |
unintelligent to vote. It is not
that they don't know enough about | 4:45:59 | 4:46:03 | |
politics, as has been insinuated.
No, thank you. And asking members... | 4:46:03 | 4:46:10 | |
If they have enough... Order. Order.
On both sides of the House there is | 4:46:10 | 4:46:17 | |
too much noise and I want to hear
the honourable lady. On accusations | 4:46:17 | 4:46:22 | |
that young people are not ready, not
clever enough, do not have the | 4:46:22 | 4:46:26 | |
political knowledge, I would ask
members if everyone... No, thank | 4:46:26 | 4:46:29 | |
you. If everyone they know has that
political knowledge. On behalf of my | 4:46:29 | 4:46:36 | |
constituents and 16 and 17-year-olds
watching across the country, I would | 4:46:36 | 4:46:39 | |
urge members in this House to vote
on this important motion. Thank you, | 4:46:39 | 4:46:48 | |
Madame Deputy Speaker.
I made the point earlier at an | 4:46:48 | 4:46:53 | |
intervention but I do think it is
well worth making the point again. | 4:46:53 | 4:47:00 | |
This is an important issue. It does
quite rightly go to the heart of | 4:47:00 | 4:47:06 | |
what it means to live in a
democracy. It goes to the heart of | 4:47:06 | 4:47:11 | |
what it means to actually be an
active member of a democracy, and | 4:47:11 | 4:47:20 | |
unsurprisingly I would imagine that
a debate on votes for 16 and | 4:47:20 | 4:47:26 | |
17-year-olds will be keenly watched
by people of that age, and by people | 4:47:26 | 4:47:32 | |
perhaps even younger still who have
an interest in politics. I will give | 4:47:32 | 4:47:37 | |
way. Faxed to the honourable
gentleman for giving way. Does he | 4:47:37 | 4:47:41 | |
agree -- thanks. Does he agree that
the 16 and 17-year-olds watching | 4:47:41 | 4:47:46 | |
this from the public gallery and at
home will feel thoroughly patronised | 4:47:46 | 4:47:50 | |
by the end of this debate? Certainly
not by me, perhaps by her. | 4:47:50 | 4:47:56 | |
LAUGHTER
Order, order, order. I have a point | 4:47:56 | 4:48:03 | |
of order from Mr streeting. I
thought I saw something disorderly, | 4:48:03 | 4:48:06 | |
and I haven't. I apologise, madam. I
am glad because if there was | 4:48:06 | 4:48:14 | |
something disorderly I would like to
think I would have seen it. I would | 4:48:14 | 4:48:23 | |
thank the honourable gentleman to
withdraw that remark. I have said | 4:48:23 | 4:48:26 | |
nothing patronising. My point is the
tone of the debate from others who | 4:48:26 | 4:48:29 | |
have spoken is patronising, and as a
gentleman I invite him to withdraw | 4:48:29 | 4:48:33 | |
the remark. As far as I can make out
there is nothing to withdraw. She | 4:48:33 | 4:48:39 | |
put forward the idea that young
people in a public gallery or | 4:48:39 | 4:48:45 | |
watching might feel patronised by
the debate. Visibly made the point | 4:48:45 | 4:48:48 | |
that I had no intention -- and I
simply made the point. I had no | 4:48:48 | 4:48:55 | |
intention of patronising them, and I
merely ask the question that perhaps | 4:48:55 | 4:48:58 | |
they might feel patronised by her.
It wasn't an assertion. Well, | 4:48:58 | 4:49:06 | |
because... Order. There is far too
much noise in the chamber. And there | 4:49:06 | 4:49:17 | |
is an honourable member making
sedentary interventions and I can't | 4:49:17 | 4:49:20 | |
hear what she is saying. If she
would like to make an intervention | 4:49:20 | 4:49:23 | |
stand up and make an intervention. I
asked him why I patronised them, but | 4:49:23 | 4:49:35 | |
I think it would be much better
returning to the issue in hand, as | 4:49:35 | 4:49:38 | |
to why the young people of the
United Kingdom aged 16 and 17 should | 4:49:38 | 4:49:42 | |
get the vote the same as they have
in Scotland. I will address the | 4:49:42 | 4:49:50 | |
implicit question in her
intervention, about the differential | 4:49:50 | 4:49:53 | |
between certain voting rights north
of the border and voting rights here | 4:49:53 | 4:49:58 | |
in England, Wales and other parts of
the United Kingdom. Scotland has for | 4:49:58 | 4:50:03 | |
many many centuries, since the act
of Union, had a number of | 4:50:03 | 4:50:07 | |
differentials in terms of its laws
between... I will come back to my | 4:50:07 | 4:50:10 | |
honourable friend in just a moment.
The most classic one, we had it | 4:50:10 | 4:50:15 | |
debated here about the age at which
someone could get married. Gretna | 4:50:15 | 4:50:18 | |
Green is famous for the place in
Scotland were runaway bride and | 4:50:18 | 4:50:24 | |
grooms would go to to get married
without they need for parental | 4:50:24 | 4:50:28 | |
consent. And I certainly would never
want to impose English will in terms | 4:50:28 | 4:50:36 | |
of marriage laws on Scotland, and I
would ask... I thank my honourable | 4:50:36 | 4:50:44 | |
friend for giving way. Does he agree
with me as we have seen from several | 4:50:44 | 4:50:49 | |
interventions in the House and
speeches earlier that age and wisdom | 4:50:49 | 4:50:53 | |
do not necessarily go hand in hand?
Further more to that, in Scotland | 4:50:53 | 4:50:57 | |
through the referendum we actually
extended the franchise to 16 and | 4:50:57 | 4:51:01 | |
17-year-olds which as a pragmatic
conservative we saw as test, and | 4:51:01 | 4:51:07 | |
they passed that test flying
colours, and that they passed that | 4:51:07 | 4:51:12 | |
test and they should be given the
rates across the country? I have a | 4:51:12 | 4:51:15 | |
huge amount of respect for my
Caledonian colleagues, and indeed | 4:51:15 | 4:51:20 | |
the members from north of the border
on the other side of the chamber. I | 4:51:20 | 4:51:26 | |
have to say, though, in response to
his intervention, I just do not | 4:51:26 | 4:51:30 | |
agree. I will come onto why I do not
agree. It has already been mentioned | 4:51:30 | 4:51:36 | |
that there are a number of
differentials between the point... | 4:51:36 | 4:51:41 | |
Point of order. I beg to move the
question now be put. No, I | 4:51:41 | 4:51:51 | |
appreciate the honourable
gentleman's point of order, and that | 4:51:51 | 4:51:55 | |
he begs to make that motion before
the House, but at this stage in the | 4:51:55 | 4:52:03 | |
debate I will not allow a closure
motion because we have been debating | 4:52:03 | 4:52:08 | |
this really important constitutional
matter for only one hour and 23 | 4:52:08 | 4:52:11 | |
minutes. And I would normally expect
a matter of this importance, where | 4:52:11 | 4:52:19 | |
the House is full of people who
still wish to contribute to the | 4:52:19 | 4:52:23 | |
debate, and from which we have not
as yet had a chance to hear from the | 4:52:23 | 4:52:31 | |
Minister or indeed from benches of
the opposition parties, and I | 4:52:31 | 4:52:34 | |
appreciate the honourable gentleman
will be disappointed I will not | 4:52:34 | 4:52:37 | |
allow him to put that motion to the
House at this stage, but I'm sure he | 4:52:37 | 4:52:41 | |
will understand it is for the chair
to protect the position of every | 4:52:41 | 4:52:50 | |
backbencher in this chamber, and I
appreciate - there really should not | 4:52:50 | 4:52:55 | |
be this much noise when I am
speaking from the chair, I haven't | 4:52:55 | 4:52:59 | |
finished this point of order - that
it is my duty to protect the | 4:52:59 | 4:53:06 | |
position of everybody wishing to
participate in a debate such of | 4:53:06 | 4:53:08 | |
this. It is a matter of some
considerable importance and I am | 4:53:08 | 4:53:11 | |
ruling it requires more than one
hour and 23 minutes for a debate. | 4:53:11 | 4:53:16 | |
Point of order, Mr Owen. I am not
challenging your ruling and anyway, | 4:53:16 | 4:53:20 | |
but can you me guidance? Because my
constituents, many have written to | 4:53:20 | 4:53:26 | |
me and contacted me to support two
bills today, and also the year third | 4:53:26 | 4:53:32 | |
bill for the member from
Wellingborough coming up. Can you | 4:53:32 | 4:53:35 | |
tell me when that is likely to
happen? Can we extend time in any | 4:53:35 | 4:53:39 | |
way? I genuinely don't know. I'm
surprised the honourable gentleman | 4:53:39 | 4:53:43 | |
doesn't know, but for the sake of
clarity let me explain. I don't know | 4:53:43 | 4:53:48 | |
when the next bill will come
forward, because it depends how many | 4:53:48 | 4:53:54 | |
people wish to speak, but I do know
that we have only two and a half | 4:53:54 | 4:53:58 | |
minutes left before this session of
the House is finished, and that | 4:53:58 | 4:54:04 | |
whatever happens I waltzed to date
at precisely 2:30pm. I'm sure the | 4:54:04 | 4:54:10 | |
honourable gentleman is well aware
of that, but I'm happy to clarify | 4:54:10 | 4:54:13 | |
the situation. A point of order,
sir. Isn't it bizarre that the party | 4:54:13 | 4:54:21 | |
opposite were happy for the debate,
the previous debate, the last for | 4:54:21 | 4:54:24 | |
around three and a half hours, and
that this one should only be an hour | 4:54:24 | 4:54:32 | |
and 20 minutes? I thank the
honourable gentleman. He notes that | 4:54:32 | 4:54:34 | |
I would normally expect at least
three hours debate on an imported | 4:54:34 | 4:54:40 | |
second reading. Mr cleverly! Thank
you... I just want to thank the | 4:54:40 | 4:54:50 | |
honourable member for the support of
my bill. No, no... | 4:54:50 | 4:54:55 | |
LAUGHTER
Point of order, James Cleverly. I | 4:54:55 | 4:55:03 | |
was going to say... I absolutely
respect the ruling of the chair and | 4:55:03 | 4:55:10 | |
I am not challenging but what advice
can give the people who are watching | 4:55:10 | 4:55:13 | |
this debate who can't understand why
over a 150 MPs have come to support | 4:55:13 | 4:55:16 | |
it yet we can't move to abort? --
moved to a vote? The advice the | 4:55:16 | 4:55:26 | |
honourable gentleman can give is
that this bill of course will come | 4:55:26 | 4:55:28 | |
back on another day and I am about
to say that. The fact that debate is | 4:55:28 | 4:55:37 | |
curtailed because it is almost
2:30pm does not mean there will not | 4:55:37 | 4:55:40 | |
be another opportunity. Thank you,
Madame Deputy Speaker. Conscious of | 4:55:40 | 4:55:50 | |
time, my intention had been to wrap
up my comments relatively quickly, | 4:55:50 | 4:55:54 | |
however I am looking at the
enunciated and seeing that actually | 4:55:54 | 4:55:57 | |
the various interruptions and points
of order have meant I have hardly | 4:55:57 | 4:56:00 | |
been able to make any progress at
all. I would hope, and I know it is | 4:56:00 | 4:56:04 | |
never a good idea to try to apply
pressure on the chair, but I would | 4:56:04 | 4:56:07 | |
hope what is now going to be a very
limited time to make points on what | 4:56:07 | 4:56:11 | |
I think is a very important point
this time round, but when this bill | 4:56:11 | 4:56:16 | |
comes back to the House at a further
sitting Friday, as it will, that she | 4:56:16 | 4:56:22 | |
or Mr Speaker if he is then in the
chair might look favourably upon me | 4:56:22 | 4:56:26 | |
so that it can be called early and
make the point... Order, order! | 4:56:26 | 4:56:34 | |
Order, order. Debate to be
resumed... What they? I didn't hear. | 4:56:34 | 4:56:41 | |
The 1st of December. -- what day.
Debate to be resumed 1st of | 4:56:41 | 4:56:47 | |
December, thank you. | 4:56:47 | 4:56:54 | |
Now, Madame Deputy Speaker.
Object? Objection taken. Reading | 4:56:54 | 4:57:01 | |
what day? Friday 1st of December,
madam speaker. Friday, 1st of | 4:57:01 | 4:57:07 | |
December.
The question is that this House do | 4:57:07 | 4:57:12 | |
now adjourn.
Mr Conor McGinn. | 4:57:12 | 4:57:16 | |
Order. Order.
Mr McGinn deserves the courtesy of | 4:57:16 | 4:57:22 | |
the House being able to hear what he
has to say. I ask honourable members | 4:57:22 | 4:57:29 | |
leaving noisily, to do so quietly!
Conor McGinn. | 4:57:29 | 4:57:35 | |
Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker.
Thank you for granting this debate | 4:57:35 | 4:57:40 | |
on the contribution of music to the
UK economy. I tweeted yesterday that | 4:57:40 | 4:57:45 | |
I was leading a debate in the House
on music. I was asked would I be | 4:57:45 | 4:57:50 | |
doing so in song, I'm afraid my
singing abilities are restricted to | 4:57:50 | 4:57:57 | |
one genre, the warbling, and the
mell an colic kind and normally | 4:57:57 | 4:58:02 | |
reserved for a certain night of the
hour. The sort of songs that give | 4:58:02 | 4:58:05 | |
rise to the joke about an Irish
boomerang, one that never comes back | 4:58:05 | 4:58:11 | |
but sings about how much it wants
to. Before I begin I would like to | 4:58:11 | 4:58:15 | |
thank key figures and organisations
in the music industry, champions of | 4:58:15 | 4:58:19 | |
the sector and whose work has led to
this debate in large part today. And | 4:58:19 | 4:58:26 | |
I'm sure members from across the
House of Commons will join me in | 4:58:26 | 4:58:34 | |
thanking UK Mc, working to ensure
its success now and in the future. I | 4:58:34 | 4:58:38 | |
would like to thank music UKMan
chair Andy Heath. And former chief | 4:58:38 | 4:58:52 | |
executives, Feargal Sharkey and Joe
Dippel who made a huge contribution | 4:58:52 | 4:59:01 | |
to the profile of the McSector.
And I could not forget, he would not | 4:59:01 | 4:59:07 | |
allow me to, the good work of the
current music UK chief executive, | 4:59:07 | 4:59:17 | |
Michael Duggard, leading the
organisation through an interesting | 4:59:17 | 4:59:26 | |
but unpredictable time. We wish him
well has he goes about his work. I | 4:59:26 | 4:59:32 | |
want to offer to the individual
members of UK Music, the sum of the | 4:59:32 | 4:59:43 | |
parts, Ian Basker, MPA, the
Musician's Union and others and we | 4:59:43 | 4:59:52 | |
benefit greatly from their knowledge
and expertise when contributing to | 4:59:52 | 4:59:56 | |
debates such as this. UK Music
reports show that the UK music | 4:59:56 | 5:00:11 | |
industry contributed £14 billion in
2016, up 6%. There are 140,000 | 5:00:11 | 5:00:18 | |
people employed in the industry,
with year on year growth of 19% | 5:00:18 | 5:00:24 | |
since 2015. More people are
attending festivals and gigs with an | 5:00:24 | 5:00:31 | |
incredible 31 million people
attending live music events in 2015. | 5:00:31 | 5:00:45 | |
These figures are incredible in
uncertain economic times. | 5:00:45 | 5:00:50 | |
Are you aware of form 696 a risk
assessment form which unfairly | 5:00:50 | 5:00:57 | |
targets grime music and urban acts,
would you join me to call on the | 5:00:57 | 5:01:06 | |
Lord Mayor to scrap this form as the
live events are so successful and | 5:01:06 | 5:01:14 | |
continue positively to the UK's
economy. | 5:01:14 | 5:01:16 | |
I thank her for the point. I agree
with the issue. It has been raised | 5:01:16 | 5:01:24 | |
with the Mayor of London and in the
industry. I had intention to mention | 5:01:24 | 5:01:28 | |
it. It is important for music in
London. | 5:01:28 | 5:01:37 | |
I thank my honourable friend for
giving way. | 5:01:37 | 5:01:41 | |
I'm sure anyone that appreciates
music will appreciate the fact that | 5:01:41 | 5:01:48 | |
the arena in Coventry, is a
wonderful event and wonderful music | 5:01:48 | 5:01:52 | |
events held there but this passing,
would he join me inry beauties to | 5:01:52 | 5:02:01 | |
the great Fats Domino who passed
away a few days ago. | 5:02:01 | 5:02:04 | |
I agree. We can all appreciate the
genius that was Fats Domino. I am | 5:02:04 | 5:02:10 | |
glad that the music in Coventry at
the Ricoh is definitely better than | 5:02:10 | 5:02:16 | |
the football it is pair to say! I
want to highlight the global success | 5:02:16 | 5:02:21 | |
of the industry. It's impressive
achievements in driving tourism and | 5:02:21 | 5:02:27 | |
generating export industries. The UK
music industry generated export | 5:02:27 | 5:02:33 | |
revenues of £2 billion. A huge
contribution and to the ex-checker | 5:02:33 | 5:02:40 | |
revenues, important as the UK leaves
the EU. At home, 823,000 overseas | 5:02:40 | 5:02:49 | |
music tourists attended gigs and
festivals in 2016. This is a credit | 5:02:49 | 5:02:54 | |
to the festivals, the number of
them, and the live music events from | 5:02:54 | 5:03:03 | |
Glastonbury, world famous, to the
West Street Music Festival in Saint | 5:03:03 | 5:03:08 | |
Helen's.
The honourable member is nationaling | 5:03:08 | 5:03:21 | |
international music festivals and
there are international acts in | 5:03:21 | 5:03:24 | |
Glasgow. And does he share my
concern that visa restrictions may | 5:03:24 | 5:03:30 | |
put these wonderful events at risk.
Very happy to. | 5:03:30 | 5:03:36 | |
And that festival is a traditional
Celtic festival. It is something of | 5:03:36 | 5:03:43 | |
which I am hugely fond. I will come
to the consequences of that | 5:03:43 | 5:03:46 | |
situation a little later if she will
allow me. Whilst there is cause for | 5:03:46 | 5:03:51 | |
celebration, we must in the House
remain aware of the threats to the | 5:03:51 | 5:03:55 | |
music industry's success. The
entrepreneurial creative nature of | 5:03:55 | 5:04:00 | |
the industry means there are many
small businesses and individual | 5:04:00 | 5:04:05 | |
freelancer operating in the sector.
Independent recording companies, | 5:04:05 | 5:04:09 | |
studios and music venues. The venues
as an example, across the UK an | 5:04:09 | 5:04:16 | |
estimated 35% of grass roots music
venues have closed down. Some in my | 5:04:16 | 5:04:21 | |
constituency. That is hundreds of
small businesses that have folded | 5:04:21 | 5:04:26 | |
and thousands of missed
opportunities for young artists. | 5:04:26 | 5:04:32 | |
Many closing down because of
developers buying up properties to | 5:04:32 | 5:04:38 | |
develop into houses and flats.
Thank you for givingway. | 5:04:38 | 5:04:47 | |
In my constituency there was a
threat of developers moving in, we | 5:04:47 | 5:04:52 | |
have managed to get the Welsh
government to change national | 5:04:52 | 5:04:56 | |
planning policy. Would he like to
see that developed across the UK? | 5:04:56 | 5:05:01 | |
Absolutely. It is a pertinent point.
Venues have closed down as a result | 5:05:01 | 5:05:20 | |
of developers, the financial burden
to install expensive sound proofing | 5:05:20 | 5:05:26 | |
equipment can be prohibitive if
there are other music venues, | 5:05:26 | 5:05:34 | |
operating in small margins near
developments. | 5:05:34 | 5:05:44 | |
I pay tribute for the campaign that
they have done on the issue | 5:05:44 | 5:05:50 | |
pertaining to their city. But to
bring about a change would impact on | 5:05:50 | 5:05:57 | |
existing responsibilities and the
developers must take responsibility. | 5:05:57 | 5:06:02 | |
My Right Honourable friend is
driving this forward, to bring | 5:06:02 | 5:06:06 | |
before the House. And the industry
faces a economic uncertainty as the | 5:06:06 | 5:06:13 | |
UK leaves the EU. It is not immune
to the threats and the challenges | 5:06:13 | 5:06:19 | |
arising from that. Employees, and it
was found that more than half feared | 5:06:19 | 5:06:29 | |
that leaving the EU would have a
negative impact on the industry. | 5:06:29 | 5:06:34 | |
The Government needs to recognise
that the lack of clarity on a | 5:06:34 | 5:06:40 | |
transitional deal is affecting the
music industry and delaying | 5:06:40 | 5:06:44 | |
investment and long-term planning.
On top, an estimated one in ten | 5:06:44 | 5:06:49 | |
workers in the music sector have a
passport from another country. | 5:06:49 | 5:06:57 | |
I want to pay tribute to the
important work of the musician's | 5:06:57 | 5:07:05 | |
union, and I hope that the minister
pays close attention to what they | 5:07:05 | 5:07:08 | |
have to say and will commit to
working with them on this. | 5:07:08 | 5:07:17 | |
I congratulate you on this debate. I
rise in support of the arguments you | 5:07:17 | 5:07:21 | |
are making as a former singer in a
band. Though I'm not sure that the | 5:07:21 | 5:07:28 | |
record sales of the music that I
wrote contributed to the economy but | 5:07:28 | 5:07:33 | |
the beer sales certainly did. 1.86
million music tourists visited the | 5:07:33 | 5:07:41 | |
north-west, generating £500 million
to the north-west economy, | 5:07:41 | 5:07:45 | |
sustaining 6,000 jobs. A key factor
in this is our ability to grow new | 5:07:45 | 5:07:50 | |
artists. Brexit presents
restrictions on freedom of movement, | 5:07:50 | 5:07:55 | |
would my friend support industry
calls for an EU wide touring | 5:07:55 | 5:07:59 | |
passport once the UK leaves to
ensure our musicians can continue to | 5:07:59 | 5:08:04 | |
perform overseas and not just in the
brilliant bars and venues like those | 5:08:04 | 5:08:11 | |
he and I frequent in Manchester.
Indeed. He makes a relevant and a | 5:08:11 | 5:08:17 | |
pertinent point. I hope it is
something that the government looks | 5:08:17 | 5:08:21 | |
closely at. I think that the
government needs to respond | 5:08:21 | 5:08:26 | |
carefully to the structural and the
technology changes in the industry. | 5:08:26 | 5:08:30 | |
Music and how we listen to it is
changing fast. An audience survey | 5:08:30 | 5:08:37 | |
found that radio accounted for one
tenth of 16 to 19-year-old listening | 5:08:37 | 5:08:46 | |
team, whereas on demand streaming
led up to 60%. | 5:08:46 | 5:08:57 | |
Given the significant growth in the
music consumption online, I think | 5:08:57 | 5:09:01 | |
that the Government must take action
to address the transfer value that | 5:09:01 | 5:09:06 | |
has developed in the digital economy
in recent years. Online platforms | 5:09:06 | 5:09:12 | |
have grown at the expense of the
music industry, with safe hash ours | 5:09:12 | 5:09:18 | |
in the ecommerce directives and
those who invest in them are not | 5:09:18 | 5:09:22 | |
always rewarded for the use of
content. It creates uneven playing | 5:09:22 | 5:09:29 | |
fields for those on the digital
platform. In perspective, a you tube | 5:09:29 | 5:09:37 | |
use senior under $1 but for Spotify
the figure is $20. So the value | 5:09:37 | 5:09:42 | |
resulting from the framework needs
to be closed so that the industry | 5:09:42 | 5:09:46 | |
can fully benefit from the great
potential presented by music | 5:09:46 | 5:09:50 | |
streaming. As the UK leaves the EU I
urge the government to pay close | 5:09:50 | 5:09:56 | |
attention to the proposed directive
on copyright in the digital single | 5:09:56 | 5:10:00 | |
market. That contains measures that
would be of a benefit to the music | 5:10:00 | 5:10:06 | |
industry, such as transparency and
addressing the transfer of value. | 5:10:06 | 5:10:12 | |
The government needs to ensure thats
the changes take place, writers, | 5:10:12 | 5:10:19 | |
artists and creators receive
benefits under copyright rules. | 5:10:19 | 5:10:24 | |
As a member of Parliament in the
north-west of England it is | 5:10:24 | 5:10:30 | |
encumbant for me to pay homage to
the music literature in Manchester | 5:10:30 | 5:10:38 | |
and Liverpool. As an Irish MP, I who
would say from the McCartney and the | 5:10:38 | 5:10:50 | |
Gallagher sisters and brothers, that
is as important. But to contribute | 5:10:50 | 5:10:55 | |
and highlight the musicians in my
constituency and their drive for | 5:10:55 | 5:11:01 | |
steranes and across the North Wales.
Saint Helen's is recognised as | 5:11:01 | 5:11:05 | |
leaders in the UK for arts and
culture. Despite cuts the council is | 5:11:05 | 5:11:13 | |
committed to providing access to
programmes for key stage two | 5:11:13 | 5:11:16 | |
children. But too many are excluded
from music as families don't have | 5:11:16 | 5:11:21 | |
enough money. The government should
look at bursaries for underfunded | 5:11:21 | 5:11:27 | |
areas like mine for music in brass
and silver bands, truly the | 5:11:27 | 5:11:33 | |
lifeblood of communities. Figures
for UK music show in 201625500 | 5:11:33 | 5:11:47 | |
people generated box office of £1.2
million from live events. | 5:11:47 | 5:11:57 | |
We are fortunate to have fantastic
venues like the credit dell, the | 5:11:57 | 5:12:06 | |
west street fleet festival and more
adding to impressive figures. So I | 5:12:06 | 5:12:11 | |
want to call the government to do
what it can to support our thriving | 5:12:11 | 5:12:15 | |
music industry moving forward. I
hope that in her remarks that the | 5:12:15 | 5:12:20 | |
minister can reassure the sector by
committing to a change in UK law, to | 5:12:20 | 5:12:27 | |
close the value gap and address
disparities in the transfer of value | 5:12:27 | 5:12:31 | |
online. And in Brexit, that the
government avoid damaging | 5:12:31 | 5:12:38 | |
restrictions on musicians and
performers' freedom of movement and | 5:12:38 | 5:12:44 | |
ensure a passport so that musicians
can continue to tour. We have a | 5:12:44 | 5:12:49 | |
world leading music industry in this
country, not immune to the economic | 5:12:49 | 5:12:52 | |
threats we face. The government must
do you what it can to support the | 5:12:52 | 5:12:58 | |
sector and ensure it's success in
the coming years. The way in which | 5:12:58 | 5:13:02 | |
music is written and performed in
the UK has found and formed the | 5:13:02 | 5:13:06 | |
soundtrack to my life and it has
enriched the lives of many others. I | 5:13:06 | 5:13:11 | |
hope that the government will ensure
that future generations can ensure | 5:13:11 | 5:13:17 | |
the same world beating music sector,
thankfully with have the fortune to | 5:13:17 | 5:13:22 | |
be a part of. | 5:13:22 | 5:13:26 | |
I am delighted to speak in this
debate and thank you to the | 5:13:26 | 5:13:31 | |
honourable gentleman for securing
it. My honourable friend involved | 5:13:31 | 5:13:38 | |
with the music industry is
disappointed he could not be in | 5:13:38 | 5:13:41 | |
person, but having heard on his
constituency, I'm sure he would be | 5:13:41 | 5:13:45 | |
delighted to visit. But I'm afraid
you did forget to men that I mention | 5:13:45 | 5:13:51 | |
one of the greatest bands to ever
come out of Manchester, the Stone | 5:13:51 | 5:13:58 | |
Roses. I hope the member for Cardiff
was listening to his colleague, I | 5:13:58 | 5:14:03 | |
think at this time MP for became MP
five. I would take the opportunity | 5:14:03 | 5:14:07 | |
to reiterate -- it is time mp4
became mp5. And I would like to | 5:14:07 | 5:14:19 | |
thank all of the UK music member
organisations for the sterling work | 5:14:19 | 5:14:22 | |
they have undertaken over the last
ten years. This Government has | 5:14:22 | 5:14:25 | |
consistently championed the British
music industry and the incredible | 5:14:25 | 5:14:29 | |
talent which make the sector such a
success story for the UK. As stated | 5:14:29 | 5:14:34 | |
by the honourable gentleman, the
excellent measuring music report | 5:14:34 | 5:14:36 | |
showed that in 2016 music
contributed more than £4 billion to | 5:14:36 | 5:14:40 | |
the UK economy, up 6% on the
previous 12 months. The report also | 5:14:40 | 5:14:45 | |
highlighted the number of jobs in
music grew more quickly than across | 5:14:45 | 5:14:48 | |
the rest of the jobs market to over
140,000. And that experts were up | 5:14:48 | 5:14:55 | |
13% -- exports were up 13%. As the
House is already heard, the equally | 5:14:55 | 5:15:02 | |
brilliant report Wish You Were Here,
incidentally in my all-time top | 5:15:02 | 5:15:07 | |
five, showed the boom being enjoyed,
and increased by 20% to 12.5 | 5:15:07 | 5:15:16 | |
million, generating a 4 billion --
£4 billion total spend. At the | 5:15:16 | 5:15:21 | |
contribution of the music industry
is not simply economic, playing a | 5:15:21 | 5:15:24 | |
vital role also in the UK's cultural
landscape. It is one of the things | 5:15:24 | 5:15:28 | |
making our country great and can
provide many people's first | 5:15:28 | 5:15:31 | |
introduction to all things British.
Our artists have provided billions | 5:15:31 | 5:15:35 | |
of people with a daily soundtrack to
their lives and of course the talent | 5:15:35 | 5:15:38 | |
does not end with the singers and
musicians. Cannot overlook the | 5:15:38 | 5:15:42 | |
outstanding producers, sound and
lighting engineers, songwriters, | 5:15:42 | 5:15:48 | |
composers and arrangers, roadies,
stage managers, and all else part of | 5:15:48 | 5:15:52 | |
the UK's vibrant music ecosystem. As
Government we need to continue to | 5:15:52 | 5:15:56 | |
create and support an environment in
which our music industry is able to | 5:15:56 | 5:15:59 | |
thrive. Over the past seven years
the Government has shown its | 5:15:59 | 5:16:02 | |
commitment to the industry in a
number of ways. Between 2012 and | 5:16:02 | 5:16:07 | |
2016 we invested over £460 million
in a wide range of music and | 5:16:07 | 5:16:11 | |
cultural education programmes.
Further to this, we have committed | 5:16:11 | 5:16:18 | |
to investing £75 million a year in
music hubs between 2016 and 2020. | 5:16:18 | 5:16:23 | |
August is a large musical groups are
able to benefit from the tax relief | 5:16:23 | 5:16:28 | |
introduced in April 20 16. The music
export growth scheme is making | 5:16:28 | 5:16:32 | |
almost £3 million in grant funding
available to help support the launch | 5:16:32 | 5:16:36 | |
of UK artists the international
market and it was developed in | 5:16:36 | 5:16:39 | |
partnership with the BPI and will be
funded by the Department for | 5:16:39 | 5:16:45 | |
International Trade up to 2020. Brit
award winners, and Yolanda Brown and | 5:16:45 | 5:16:53 | |
Mercury prize winners Young Fathers
are just some of those to benefit. | 5:16:53 | 5:16:57 | |
The live music act introduced in
2012 has made it much easier for | 5:16:57 | 5:17:01 | |
promoters to organise live music
events and we have made changes to | 5:17:01 | 5:17:03 | |
the permitted development rights
making it easier for | 5:17:03 | 5:17:08 | |
well-established music and cultural
venues to operate. The cultural | 5:17:08 | 5:17:12 | |
rooms scheme created 40 music
rehearsal spaces in areas of England | 5:17:12 | 5:17:21 | |
experiencing multiple deprivation.
Funding of £440,000 provided | 5:17:21 | 5:17:26 | |
instruments and equipment and
contributed towards the cost of | 5:17:26 | 5:17:29 | |
necessary works such as
soundproofing. The Government has | 5:17:29 | 5:17:32 | |
taken a number of steps to bolster
the enforcement of copyright, | 5:17:32 | 5:17:36 | |
including increasing the maximum
custodial sentence for online | 5:17:36 | 5:17:40 | |
copyright offences, providing
funding to the creative content UK | 5:17:40 | 5:17:47 | |
programme and brokering a voluntary
code of conduct between rights | 5:17:47 | 5:17:51 | |
holders and search engines to reduce
the number of infringing websites in | 5:17:51 | 5:17:55 | |
search results. Grassroot music
venues supported by the grassroot | 5:17:55 | 5:18:00 | |
equivalent recording rehearsal rooms
are we are so many of our | 5:18:00 | 5:18:03 | |
world-class musicians take their
first steps of the road to success. | 5:18:03 | 5:18:06 | |
The Government believes this vital
and vibrant part of the music | 5:18:06 | 5:18:09 | |
ecosystem must be allowed to
prosper. We have already reformed | 5:18:09 | 5:18:13 | |
entertainment licensing and made
changes to planning requirements | 5:18:13 | 5:18:15 | |
making it easier for small venues to
operate and we are currently | 5:18:15 | 5:18:18 | |
exploring a range of issues with
industry and Government stakeholders | 5:18:18 | 5:18:23 | |
including working more closely
across Government to better support | 5:18:23 | 5:18:24 | |
the sector. The agent of change
principle as well, and the impact of | 5:18:24 | 5:18:30 | |
business rate rises on the
grassroots, availability of suitable | 5:18:30 | 5:18:35 | |
space. I am grateful. She mentioned
the Live Music Act, and she knows | 5:18:35 | 5:18:46 | |
that was a Private members Bill, and
the honourable gentleman mentioned, | 5:18:46 | 5:18:52 | |
the member for quarterly, with the
Government consider possibly if it | 5:18:52 | 5:18:55 | |
is considering -- member for Worley.
Order. I don't mean to jump up and | 5:18:55 | 5:19:11 | |
into rock, but it is not for the
member to intervene or take part in | 5:19:11 | 5:19:15 | |
an adjournment debate such as this.
However, it is a good-natured debate | 5:19:15 | 5:19:20 | |
and the honourable gentleman was not
causing trouble, so I'm not going on | 5:19:20 | 5:19:24 | |
this occasion to stop the minister
from hearing what he has said, but | 5:19:24 | 5:19:28 | |
for the record it's not in order for
him to take part in the debate. | 5:19:28 | 5:19:31 | |
Minister. Thank you, Madame Deputy
Speaker. I wouldn't wish to be out | 5:19:31 | 5:19:38 | |
of order by responding so I will
ensure that my ministerial colleague | 5:19:38 | 5:19:43 | |
reads the Hansard and response in
writing to him. I won't, if that is | 5:19:43 | 5:19:52 | |
OK, although I think I know... Of
course. I am very grateful to the | 5:19:52 | 5:19:58 | |
minister and will be very quick.
Will the Government support the | 5:19:58 | 5:20:01 | |
Private members Bill honourable
member for Warley? I am reassured | 5:20:01 | 5:20:09 | |
the Minister with responsibility for
the music industry response to the | 5:20:09 | 5:20:12 | |
honourable lady as well as to the
front bench spokesman on that | 5:20:12 | 5:20:16 | |
matter. The Government's response to
the recent inquiry into the | 5:20:16 | 5:20:20 | |
licensing in the desert he will be
published shortly and we will | 5:20:20 | 5:20:23 | |
continue to work across government
and with industry and local industry | 5:20:23 | 5:20:26 | |
to promote small venues -- the
licensing industry. The minister | 5:20:26 | 5:20:32 | |
raised Brexit and understandably so.
I want to assure him that there have | 5:20:32 | 5:20:35 | |
been a series of Round Tables to
ensure the needs and views of all | 5:20:35 | 5:20:38 | |
the creative industries including
music are heard and understood. They | 5:20:38 | 5:20:42 | |
continue to work closely with
stakeholders and other players on | 5:20:42 | 5:20:46 | |
the opportunities provided by
Brexit. Our own Visa system helps | 5:20:46 | 5:20:52 | |
shape perception of the UK around
the world and we strive constantly | 5:20:52 | 5:20:56 | |
to improve our Visa service to make
sure it is as simple, streamlined | 5:20:56 | 5:21:00 | |
and efficient as bobble to welcome
established artists to the UK. -- as | 5:21:00 | 5:21:07 | |
possible to welcome. This is being
considered with other activity and | 5:21:07 | 5:21:12 | |
we welcome the views of the music
industry on visas in respect of | 5:21:12 | 5:21:16 | |
movement within Europe. I am aware
of the these are issues for artists | 5:21:16 | 5:21:20 | |
travelling to the USA and I am
grateful for the constructive | 5:21:20 | 5:21:23 | |
engagement of industry with the UK
and US governments and I share the | 5:21:23 | 5:21:26 | |
desire to reduce this burden on the
British music industry, especially | 5:21:26 | 5:21:30 | |
for emerging talent, and we continue
to work with the sector, Foreign | 5:21:30 | 5:21:35 | |
Office colleagues and Embassy
counterparts in the US. While I am a | 5:21:35 | 5:21:40 | |
vinyl loyalist everyone in this
house will recognise over the past | 5:21:40 | 5:21:44 | |
ten years that recorded music
industry has gone through a major | 5:21:44 | 5:21:47 | |
transformation with digital
downloads, online platforms and the | 5:21:47 | 5:21:50 | |
more recent explosion of streaming
services all shifting the way music | 5:21:50 | 5:21:53 | |
is consumed. DCMS is working closely
with the intellectual property | 5:21:53 | 5:21:59 | |
office to ensure the music
industry's concerns are taking into | 5:21:59 | 5:22:03 | |
consideration in negotiating the
copyright package. Online platforms, | 5:22:03 | 5:22:08 | |
like all businesses, must act in a
socially responsible manner and | 5:22:08 | 5:22:12 | |
cooperate with law enforcement
agencies in a reasonable and timely | 5:22:12 | 5:22:14 | |
way to remove illegal material. We
have been working successfully with | 5:22:14 | 5:22:18 | |
industry on a voluntary basis to
achieve this. We believe Internet | 5:22:18 | 5:22:23 | |
companies need to take more
responsibility for content on their | 5:22:23 | 5:22:26 | |
platforms and we need to make sure
we get the right balance to ensure | 5:22:26 | 5:22:29 | |
we have a vibrant Internet whilst
also protecting users from illegal | 5:22:29 | 5:22:34 | |
and or harmful content and we are
currently working on proposals for a | 5:22:34 | 5:22:37 | |
digital charter setting out
frameworks for businesses, | 5:22:37 | 5:22:41 | |
individuals and how the wider
society should act online, | 5:22:41 | 5:22:43 | |
addressing some of the issues faced
by the music industry. Turning to | 5:22:43 | 5:22:48 | |
form 696, many will know that the
Minister for Digital has expressed | 5:22:48 | 5:22:54 | |
concern, and the potential negative
impact upon London's grassroots | 5:22:54 | 5:22:57 | |
music scene and venues. Of course on
the back of this is the worry that | 5:22:57 | 5:23:01 | |
the form may be stifling young
artist and reducing the diversity of | 5:23:01 | 5:23:06 | |
London's well renowned -- world
renowned musical offering. It could | 5:23:06 | 5:23:09 | |
also push promoters to take genre
specific events outside of London | 5:23:09 | 5:23:14 | |
and we are pleased that the net are
reviewing how they work with the | 5:23:14 | 5:23:18 | |
music industry and the -- pleased
that the London police service are | 5:23:18 | 5:23:24 | |
reviewing. The sector is a
tremendous ambassador for the wealth | 5:23:24 | 5:23:30 | |
of creativity that exists on these
islands. Wherever you look, you see | 5:23:30 | 5:23:34 | |
great British musical and creative
talent. With household names across | 5:23:34 | 5:23:37 | |
the world, from Glastonbury, Elgar,
the Pet Shop Boys, Abbey Road and | 5:23:37 | 5:23:44 | |
ear Studios, Wembley, the UK is a
world leader in music. They are big | 5:23:44 | 5:23:51 | |
part of why the UK is currently
ranked second in the world and why | 5:23:51 | 5:23:55 | |
people from around the world want to
come here. This Government is | 5:23:55 | 5:23:58 | |
committed to continuing to support
the UK music's industry at home and | 5:23:58 | 5:24:01 | |
abroad. We want our music industry
to continue to be the envy of the | 5:24:01 | 5:24:06 | |
world, promoting and showcasing the
very best of our unique brand of | 5:24:06 | 5:24:09 | |
creativity. The question is that
this House do now adjourned. As many | 5:24:09 | 5:24:17 | |
as are of the opinion, say 'aye'. To
the contrary, 'no'. The ayes have | 5:24:17 | 5:24:21 | |
it. Order, order. | 5:24:21 | 5:24:27 |