03/11/2017 House of Commons


03/11/2017

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LineFromTo

Well, we have not begun yet. Order,

order.

Point of order, Mr Speaker. I

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beg to move the House set in

private.

As many of that opinion say

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aye. Aye! On the contrary no. No!

Division, clear the lobby.

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The question is that the House to

sit in private. As many are of that

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opinion says aye. Aye. On the

contrary no. No. Taylor is for the

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ayes, and tellers for the nos.

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Lock the doors!

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Please investigate the delay in the

no lobby.

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Order. The ayes zero, the noes 1120.

The ayes zero,, the now the noes

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Cabot.

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Mental health unit use of force Bill

second reading.

I beg to move the

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use of force will be now read a

second time. A young graduate

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embarking on his life aged just 23

and living with his parents and

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Thornton Heath suffered his first

ever mental health episode.

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Esperance recognised what was

happening and you come to the local

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hospital. He ended up in the

hospital in Croydon and dispensed it

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with him all day but had to leave

APM full stop. He became agitated

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and tried to leave as well.

According to the coroner the staff

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like the training to deal with them

and although there are no

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allegations he attacked anyone they

called the police. 11 police

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officers took Mr Lewis injury

seclusion room and using compliance

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techniques against violent criminals

they held him facedown on the floor

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for 30 minutes. His hands were

covered behind his backs and his

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legs were in restraints. They held

him like that until he could no

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longer breathe and he suffered a

heart attack. He went into a coma

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and four days later he was dead. The

coroner criticised his treatment as

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disproportionate and unreasonable

not patient entering a hospital for

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care should suffer and die the way

that Shaney did. It took seven years

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of struggle by Shaney's grieving

parents until an inquest was finally

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opened this year. The coroner found

severe failings by the police and

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mental health services and gave this

stark warning. There is a risk that

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future deaths will occur unless

action is taken. That action is this

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Bill. What happened to Shaney is not

an isolated incident. According to

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an independent panel 46 mental

health patients died following

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restraint up to 2014.

I'm grateful

for bringing forward in this Bill.

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Many families in my constituency

have contacted me including those

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affected by autism. Very concerned

about the facedown restraint my

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friend has disclaimed.

Disclaimed.

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This year grades is important we

have boundaries and the families

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have some kind of certainty about

what can and cannot happen in these

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facilities.

I agree and underrated

the National autism Society are

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fully supporting this Bill and the

provisions. I was talking about the

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numbers of patients who died

following restraint and the many

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more who have been seriously

injured. Government guidelines say

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that facedown restraint is so

dangerous, it should not be used at

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all. But it was use of a thousand

times and the last year alone

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including 2500 times against

children as young as seven. People

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have been restrained talk about the

experience and horror. They will

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tell you it is frightening, painful

and Jim Elliot in. They feel

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stripped of their dignity. In the

words of one woman it made me feel

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like cake looks like I had done

something wrong, not that I was ill

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and needed to get better. Statistics

show that women are more likely to

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be restrained facedown on the floor

than men. After half of all women

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and mental health hospitals have

been physically or sexually abused

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by men. Subjecting these women into

facedown restraint by groups of men

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as to the drama that in many cases

led to their mental illness in the

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first place. It is difficult from

the existing data to understand

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clearly exec of what is going on. It

is no standardised way of recording

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quite when or how restraint is used

but from their own data that appear

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to be wide discrepancies between

different mental health providers.

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Some as few as 5%, others over 50%

and it is no good reason for that

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variation.

I'm very grateful for

giving way. Would he agree is no

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time that each sector publishes

correctly and robustly the data that

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is available and doesn't he agree

that the minister should make a

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commitment to that robust

publication of the data?

I agree,

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and I hope the Minister will be

making that commitments today. There

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are also fears about unconscious

bias in the mental health services.

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A very important review was

published earlier this week noting

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how a disproportionate number of

people from across the committees

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have died. Black people off four

times were likely section than white

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people. But the people of and you'll

see many more black faces in the

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population as a whole. We do

understand how assumptions based on

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stereotypes are causing this but we

need standardised data to do that.

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What this bill proposes a simple,

but it will make a big difference.

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It will standardise the way data on

every instance where force is used

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as recorded so that we can better

understand where forces being used

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unnecessarily and the extent of any

bias and is proportionality in the

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system. It will improve arrangements

between police and mental health

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services and require police to wear

a body cameras when carrying out

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restraint unless they are good

operational reasons why not.

I

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support his bill and the provisions

of clause 13 police body cameras but

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is he a way that the rest of his

bill applies to England only and

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therefore the police body cameras is

a slight anomaly in that Wales

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cannot use the cameras because the

units are devolved to the Welsh

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assembly. Would he care to look at

those matters and discuss them with

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the Welsh assembly?

The member is

correct, and I think the idea of

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engaging with the Welsh assembly as

the bill proceeds as an excellent

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idea and I would hope to have his

support in doing that.

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I congratulate what he is bringing

forward and will declare an

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interest. My son is a CPI, although

not practising. Would he agree with

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me that there is also made to look

at the wider process of how people

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are taken into care? The sectioning

process, under the Mental Health Act

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of 1983, does not really allow any

accountability to the victim, and

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this bill, whilst important, needs

to be part of that wider context of

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how we deal with someone at their

most vulnerable when they have been

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sectioned.

I very much agree with

the honourable gentleman. The

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government are commissioning a much

wider review of the mental health

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services, that I hope will encompass

the point he is speaking about, but

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it would be for the Minister to

clarify on that point. The bill will

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make sure that every mental health

provider has a policy in place

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governing the use of force,

including a clear, deliverable plans

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are reducing its use and ensuring

that staff are properly trained in

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the qualities of de-escalation

techniques needed to avoid the use

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of force. It will speed up justice

and allow learning to take place by

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ensuring that any non-natural death

in a mental health unit

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automatically triggers an

independent investigation and will

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make sure that recommendations from

investigations and inquests are

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taken into account improving mental

health services in ways that

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currently do not happen. This is a

significant step forward in moving

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our mental health services from

containment of patients to the care

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of patients. It will make sure that

they are treated with compassion and

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not cruelty. There is overwhelming

support for this bill across the

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mental health sector and I am

grateful for the practical support

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that I have received from inquests,

and in particular from their

0:27:310:27:38

director, from the widely respected

solicitor who has represented so

0:27:380:27:41

many bereaved families following

deaths in custody, Young Men The Uk,

0:27:410:27:48

Agenda, The Labour Campaign For

Mental Health, and many others. 38

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degrees holstered an online petition

that has been signed by 60,000

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people all demanding this change.

Looking at it more broadly, I have

0:27:590:28:04

watched documentaries on this and

will he not agree with me that there

0:28:040:28:09

is an argument, really, of giving

the police better training to

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understand some of the difficulties

mental health people have.

I

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absolutely agree with the point the

honourable gentleman makes but

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unfortunately events on the scope of

this bill but very much hope it will

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be in scope for the wider review the

government is commissioning.

I am

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grateful to him for the time he gave

me to discuss his bill a few weeks

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ago. About mental health

professionals supporting this bill,

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I have spoken to my local care trust

in Bradford, who, while the support

0:28:350:28:40

much of voters in the bill, do have

some concerns about some aspects of

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the bill and I therefore wondered

how receptive the honourable

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gentleman would be two amendments at

either committee stage report stage

0:28:480:28:53

the bill to try to address some of

those concerns, determined that --

0:28:530:28:57

or is he determined that the bill

must end up in its current place?

I

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thank him for his very helpful

intervention and think that the only

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way to go forwards with this bill is

through consensus. I have made clear

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to both the ministers sitting on the

front bench this morning but as we

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go through committee stage, I would

want to work with them

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constructively as they have worked

with me so far so that we can secure

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an outcome that can be supported by

all sides in this House, and right

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across. Just this week, on that

point, the chief executives of 29

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mental health organisations have

published a letter urging this

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Parliament to back this bill. It is

supported by the Royal College of

0:29:330:29:37

Nursing, the Royal College of

psychiatrists, the CQC, NHS England

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and trade unions representing staff

who do such an incredible job

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working in our mental health

services. I must add my thanks to

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the honourable member for Thurrock

for working with me so

0:29:490:29:51

constructively on this, and the

Leader of the Opposition, who has

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long supported this campaign, going

back before he became leader of

0:29:560:30:00

there is on.

Thank you very much. --

Leader of the Opposition. I

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congratulate my honourable friend

for bringing this forward. Mr Lewis

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grew up in my constituency, in High

Peak, and his family, his cousin was

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telling me yesterday, what a lovely

young man he was. Never in trouble

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with the law. What a loss to society

's years. Does my honourable friend

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agree that it should never have

taken six years for his family to

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have fought for an inquest in his

case, and to pay tribute to them for

0:30:300:30:34

all that they have done to make sure

that this never happens to another

0:30:340:30:37

family?

I absolutely agree. There is

an old line that Justice delayed is

0:30:370:30:46

justice denied and more family who

have lost their child and these

0:30:460:30:53

circumstances should not have to

bite the state for a modicum of

0:30:530:30:56

justice. I also want to thank the

Prime Minister who has met the Lewis

0:30:560:31:01

family on more than one occasion and

I now support the objectives of this

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bill. Mr Speaker, I have come to

know his parents very well over the

0:31:050:31:10

past two years. They are two of the

most dignified and inspirational

0:31:100:31:14

people I have ever met, but they

have suffered pain and anguish that

0:31:140:31:19

no parent should ever have to face.

When I asked them what they hoped

0:31:190:31:23

for after all they have been

through, they told me they do not

0:31:230:31:28

want the Sun's distribute them. They

do not want any other family to

0:31:280:31:34

suffer as they have suffered. --

Safira Sun's destined to be in vain.

0:31:340:31:39

I say to this House, he did not die

in vain. We can honour his memory by

0:31:390:31:44

making sure that nobody else supper

is the way that he did and by making

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our mental health services equal and

safe for everyone. I dedicate this

0:31:470:31:59

bill to him.

The question is that

this bill be read a second time. I

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was going to call Mr Moorhouse, but

although he is on the list he is not

0:32:030:32:08

standing and is showing an

unaccustomed reluctance to deliver

0:32:080:32:11

the House with his views.

I am the

second, not the first.

If I am

0:32:110:32:20

mistaken and he is going to preserve

his thunder, we will hear from him

0:32:200:32:23

at a later stage. Gosh, what a

delightful choice awaits me.

0:32:230:32:29

Victoria Prentice.

I am most

grateful to be called first out of

0:32:290:32:36

the smorgasbord of choice that was

just available to you, but it does

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in fact give me general pressure --

genuine pleasure to rise to support

0:32:430:32:47

this bill and be the first to

congratulate the honourable member

0:32:470:32:51

opposite for his enormous hard work.

It is obviously stems from a great

0:32:510:32:58

tragedy, but it is always good to

see a piece of constituency casework

0:32:580:33:03

come to fruition and get as far as

the floor of this House. I have

0:33:030:33:08

enormous respect for the honourable

gentleman, and all the work he has

0:33:080:33:12

done with people across this House

and outside to get this far. I wish

0:33:120:33:16

him all the best, of course.

I thank

the honourable lady forgiving way.

0:33:160:33:22

Is it not also time to paid tribute

to Norman Lamb, who, as Health

0:33:220:33:27

Secretary, introduced new girl

blinds, with new funding to enter

0:33:270:33:36

the deliberate use of force in all

health and care settings and

0:33:360:33:39

unfortunately they have not always

been followed?

I thank the

0:33:390:33:44

honourable lady for her

intervention. It is very important

0:33:440:33:46

in these cases that we congratulate

members from across the House and

0:33:460:33:52

work together on cross party lines

to achieve the consensus that is

0:33:520:33:56

needed so that we support those in

our communities that need laws like

0:33:560:34:01

this to keep them safe.

I am

grateful. May I add my voice to her

0:34:010:34:08

as in congratulating the sponsor of

the bill. It is not just bringing

0:34:080:34:11

the bill to the size, it is

gathering that consensus, as she has

0:34:110:34:15

said. Does she welcomed the fact

that he is willing to look at

0:34:150:34:19

constructive suggestions, whether at

committee or whatever stage, in

0:34:190:34:22

order to ensure this bill is in a

proper and better stage?

I thank him

0:34:220:34:28

for that intervention. Mental health

is an area which we have really

0:34:280:34:34

started to begin to both understand

and talk about in very recent years,

0:34:340:34:37

and as we do that, we learn from the

experiences of people, both who have

0:34:370:34:43

suffered tragedies and have had

better experiences with law

0:34:430:34:46

enforcement agencies, or as patients

in hospitals, and it is really

0:34:460:34:52

important that we do learn and

listen as we go through the progress

0:34:520:34:56

of this debate. There may well be

things that, in the committee stages

0:34:560:35:04

which nobody has given a moment's

thought to but a constituent of

0:35:040:35:10

somebody in the South will have a

real story to tell and we can learn

0:35:100:35:13

from that going forward. I know from

my own constituency casework that

0:35:130:35:15

for those at the point of crisis,

the use of restraint can be both

0:35:150:35:21

humiliating and traumatising. I

discussed this issue with the

0:35:210:35:27

Causeway carers, who are great

organisation, really people who have

0:35:270:35:30

suffered

0:35:300:35:33

organisation, really people who have

suffered, largely be parents of

0:35:330:35:35

victims of very severe mental health

problems. They meet once a month and

0:35:350:35:40

the group comprises family members

who look after relatives with very

0:35:400:35:46

serious mental health problems. Many

had first-hand experience of

0:35:460:35:50

sectioning and restraint which they

were happy to share with me, which

0:35:500:35:54

was a great privilege. I don't feel

able to share any of those stories

0:35:540:35:58

with the House today. From what we

have heard about Olaseni Lewis, we

0:35:580:36:02

can all imagine the sort of stories

that we now are taking place even on

0:36:020:36:07

the high street, well, from time to

time, but at night often, those sort

0:36:070:36:13

of stories are taking place in all

other communities. This is not in

0:36:130:36:18

any way an area that is isolated or

that any of us can feel untouched

0:36:180:36:24

by. Of course, these are families

suffering enormously because they

0:36:240:36:29

are dealing with a very, very ill

member of the family, often a child.

0:36:290:36:34

Restraint is added to that dreadful

suffering that they have already got

0:36:340:36:39

to cope with. I do recognise that

the use of police cells in England

0:36:390:36:53

is declining and the more cases than

ever are being referred to the

0:36:530:37:01

health units, which is progress. We

should welcome the significant

0:37:010:37:06

reduction in the number of deaths

following police custody since the

0:37:060:37:10

position 20 years ago. I imagine

this reflects improved training,

0:37:100:37:14

guidance and practices in a number

of areas, but most significantly in

0:37:140:37:20

suicide prevention. It strikes me,

with my background as a life in

0:37:200:37:26

prison service, and this is in very

sharp contrast to the rates of

0:37:260:37:30

suicide that we have recorded in the

last 20 years in prison, where the

0:37:300:37:34

number has gone up very and

worryingly. However, it is true...

0:37:340:37:41

Yes, of course.

I do notice that it

is being very consensual on both

0:37:410:37:49

sides of the House and I would like

to retain that, but in both present

0:37:490:37:52

and mental health, one of the

linking factors is perhaps the issue

0:37:520:37:56

of funding for both sets of

institutions. In my own trust, which

0:37:560:38:03

is again in special measures, there

is concern from staff and service

0:38:030:38:07

users that a reduction in the number

of staff, nurses and doctors, over

0:38:070:38:12

the past five years means that there

is less ability for them to be able

0:38:120:38:15

to watch and monitor patients, more

likelihood that those patients are

0:38:150:38:21

using medication and therefore

restraint is more likely to be used

0:38:210:38:26

and we end up with the situation

that we find the Lewis family in.

I

0:38:260:38:31

thank the honourable member for his

intervention. Rather than get to

0:38:310:38:37

party political about this, I think

it is appropriate to talk about

0:38:370:38:40

other difficulties which have led to

reductions in staffing in real terms

0:38:400:38:46

in the prison service, because in

fact, on this side of the House, we

0:38:460:38:49

can give you loads of facts and

figures about how much more is being

0:38:490:38:54

spent. The difficulty that I not

right person at the in my

0:38:540:38:58

constituency as we do have a problem

with recruiting and retaining staff.

0:38:580:39:03

-- the difficulty that I have in my

constituency. I used this

0:39:030:39:08

opportunity to pay tribute to all

those who choose to work in the very

0:39:080:39:11

difficult mental health sphere with

patients who suffer from dreadful

0:39:110:39:17

illnesses, and I think, as a house

together, we should pay tribute to

0:39:170:39:21

the work that is done by them, day

in, day out, with people who, while

0:39:210:39:27

ill, are very difficult to deal with

often. One matter on which I am sure

0:39:270:39:34

we can agree is how critical it is

that we work further on reducing the

0:39:340:39:40

number of UK energy people detained

for mental health reasons and police

0:39:400:39:46

cells. The figures are

disproportionately high and it

0:39:460:39:50

simply cannot be that black people

are four times more likely to be

0:39:500:39:56

detained under the act than white

people. The honourable gentleman

0:39:560:39:58

earlier made mention of the Angioli

review and talked about the

0:39:580:40:09

importance of standardised data

recording, and I once again revert

0:40:090:40:14

to my prison experience... I am

sorry to keep doing this because

0:40:140:40:16

they understand that the mental

health system is completely

0:40:160:40:19

different from the criminal system,

but there are themes that run

0:40:190:40:24

through the way that BAME people are

treated in both systems, which we

0:40:240:40:28

are increasingly finding to be

utterly unacceptable.

Doesn't she,

0:40:280:40:33

in that spirit, and I thank you for

giving way and also pay tribute to

0:40:330:40:37

the honourable member for Croydon

North for bringing this, does she go

0:40:370:40:40

for welcome, as I do, closes eight

and nine of the bill, which require

0:40:400:40:47

the mental health units to record

the relevant characteristics of the

0:40:470:40:51

patient in every location which

force is used, and also then that

0:40:510:40:57

they must make an annual report to

the Secretary of State so that

0:40:570:41:01

health units themselves, but also

the Secretary of State, can review

0:41:010:41:05

and understand where there are

patterns of behaviour?

I thank her

0:41:050:41:09

for her intervention. I could not

agree with her more. The provisional

0:41:090:41:14

statistics, the retention of figures

and then the crunching of those

0:41:140:41:18

statistics is absolutely critical.

It may not sound exciting, but it is

0:41:180:41:23

the only way that we can with those

very real problem of racial

0:41:230:41:28

imbalance in both mental health and

in the criminal justice system. I...

0:41:280:41:33

It sounds absurd to say that figures

are what is going to push through

0:41:330:41:40

racial imbalances, but I really

believe that when we have the facts

0:41:400:41:44

and figures such as those provided

recently in the report on the Prison

0:41:440:41:49

Service where we learned that 277

black women are imprisoned for every

0:41:490:41:55

100 white women, those sort of

figures are utterly unacceptable on

0:41:550:42:01

any level. The more we can talk

about figures such as those, that I

0:42:010:42:05

really backed up by good evidence,

the better. This is not something

0:42:050:42:10

with which a civilised society can

put up.

0:42:100:42:18

This Government has already

committed to addressing these

0:42:180:42:22

disproportionate high rates of BAME

people detained for mental health

0:42:220:42:30

reasons and I am proud of the work

the Government has done and

0:42:300:42:32

generally on mental health. We all

know the 1983 act as outdated and it

0:42:320:42:39

will be reformed to make it fit for

the modern era. In October 2017 the

0:42:390:42:45

Prime Minister and edged a

competitive review of the Mental

0:42:450:42:49

Health Act with a planned final in

state of next autumn. The review is

0:42:490:42:58

being led by Professor Simon Wesley

a former president of the Royal

0:42:580:43:03

College of psychiatrists but I have

what closely in my previous role

0:43:030:43:09

when he was able we were working on

a case concerning pardoning of

0:43:090:43:15

prisoners who had been shot for

cowardice. He was able to recreate

0:43:150:43:21

the mental health states from the

very limited reckons that we had

0:43:210:43:25

available and give invaluable

evidence to the court. He has a

0:43:250:43:28

great man and I'm sure he is the

right person to lead this review. He

0:43:280:43:32

said he expects some of the

solutions to the difficulties July

0:43:320:43:35

in the different culture of the

mental health system as well as

0:43:350:43:44

potential legislative change.

Personally I have been very

0:43:440:43:46

encouraged by the work being done on

mental health in my own constituency

0:43:460:43:50

including any veteran support group

which meets next to my constituency

0:43:500:44:00

office once a month behind the wire.

It is a former military

0:44:000:44:04

establishment and the people who

access it feel very comfortable and

0:44:040:44:08

in that environment. It is

well-known as a group that veterans

0:44:080:44:13

are more prone to experience mental

health issues other people and

0:44:130:44:20

society, this particular group

offers droppings for veterans and

0:44:200:44:23

the local area to meet organisations

including the support and power

0:44:230:44:28

advocate and promote service, Help

For Heroes, the Royal British

0:44:280:44:32

Legion, veterans UK and rethink

mentioned earlier to do a great deal

0:44:320:44:38

of work across the country. As well

as this particular group I have

0:44:380:44:43

other local organisations who are

doing great things supporting my

0:44:430:44:46

constituents including other store

in Banbury who I met with recently.

0:44:460:44:52

I visited the local branch of mind

to support today's Bill and I caught

0:44:520:45:03

the letter, the proposals in this

bill are crucial to protecting

0:45:030:45:07

people experiencing a mental health

crisis. With fewer support the bill

0:45:070:45:11

would lead to better training for

staff, better data improved

0:45:110:45:16

transparency and highlighting

problem areas. -- with your support.

0:45:160:45:22

It gives me great pleasure to not

only supports the gentleman but

0:45:220:45:26

stand up for my constituents who

have contacted me to ask me to be

0:45:260:45:29

here today and to speak and one

final word that is a former civil

0:45:290:45:33

servant I cannot emphasise how much,

how important it is that we have a

0:45:330:45:39

joined up approach to cross

department on this issue. It is very

0:45:390:45:42

much not a matter for the health

Department, the Ministry of Justice

0:45:420:45:45

and also involved and I speak to

them frequently about mental health

0:45:450:45:52

and prisoners and the use of

restraint any criminal justice

0:45:520:45:55

system and they very much up that

the Minister and the wind will

0:45:550:45:59

reaffirm the importance of cross

governmental cooperation including

0:45:590:46:03

work with NHS England on the

delivery of reforms to detention.

I

0:46:030:46:13

am grateful to you, and may I begin

by paying tribute to the member for

0:46:130:46:22

Croydon for bringing forward this

legislation which I very much

0:46:220:46:25

support. And common I am sure with

most members of this House, mental

0:46:250:46:32

health is a rising issue in my

constituency and many constituents

0:46:320:46:37

are frequently in contact with me

about it and in particular ask me to

0:46:370:46:41

come and speak in this debate. I

would like to talk about the two

0:46:410:46:46

provisions in this bill which I

think are very important, first of

0:46:460:46:49

all I think it is so important to

have transplants. I believe that

0:46:490:46:58

sunlight is the best form of

disinfectant and if you can see

0:46:580:47:03

photos going on, people are much

less likely to behave in an

0:47:030:47:08

inappropriate fashion so I think the

use of body cameras which we have

0:47:080:47:12

seen in so many other areas of

police work has done such good work,

0:47:120:47:17

very much welcomed in this piece of

legislation and secondly I very much

0:47:170:47:25

welcome provisions in this

legislation and audition to

0:47:250:47:29

effective recording. I know one of

the frustrations of many of my

0:47:290:47:33

constituents who have mental health

problems of his family members have

0:47:330:47:40

is that interactions with public

bodies whether that is the police, a

0:47:400:47:47

local authority, schools, the

information is not properly collated

0:47:470:47:51

and not properly showered and

therefore patients and their

0:47:510:47:53

families feel they are constantly

going around in circles repeating

0:47:530:47:58

information. The more we can do to

entertain that information, the

0:47:580:48:03

better treatment we will receive for

those affected. The -- retainer that

0:48:030:48:09

information. The route lies in a

need for a change in attitudes

0:48:090:48:15

towards mental health. If you look

at my own constituency it is quite a

0:48:150:48:21

dramatic of the changes that have

happened in the past 30 or 40 years.

0:48:210:48:27

I give way...

Would he agree with me

that no matter what equipment you

0:48:270:48:33

have, if you do not have the great

staffing levels, I am a nurse and I

0:48:330:48:37

know we do not have enough nurses,

that also is at the root of the

0:48:370:48:44

problem and you need to address the

staffing levels.

I quite agree. That

0:48:440:48:49

is why I am so pleased that the

Government has protected police

0:48:490:48:54

funding and if you look in relation

to the health service I was going to

0:48:540:49:00

come onto this points but I will

raise its now that we are moving

0:49:000:49:05

towards achieving parity between

mental and physical health and some

0:49:050:49:07

of the statistics are very welcome,

for example we are now spending

0:49:070:49:12

£11.6 billion a year on mental

health. That is more than have ever

0:49:120:49:16

done before and the health and

social care that is giving parity.

0:49:160:49:25

Does she agree that it is not just

the numbers of staff, at is how well

0:49:250:49:31

they are trained in the particularly

difficult circumstances of the

0:49:310:49:36

mental health unit. The pressures on

members of staff of particularly

0:49:360:49:43

acute in such an environment and so

clause five of the bill which

0:49:430:49:46

requires training and appropriate

use of force must be a positive

0:49:460:49:51

training for members of staff.

She

is absolutely right, I don't think

0:49:510:50:01

anybody suggesting that police

officers are actively seeking to

0:50:010:50:04

treat mental health patients and

incorrect fashion, it is the need

0:50:040:50:08

for training so they understand the

correct way to behave.

I do not

0:50:080:50:16

think it is simply about now, the

figures have increased in recent

0:50:160:50:24

years but it is the years of cuts

before but have had an impact on

0:50:240:50:31

staffing levels, we have seen a 20%

drop in the number of doctors and

0:50:310:50:35

nurses on the payroll in your last

five years. You can train a fewer

0:50:350:50:40

number of nurses and doctors and

restraint techniques but actually if

0:50:400:50:44

you are thereafter, the more than as

that they will need to restrain and

0:50:440:50:49

we cannot get away from that.

I am

not sure I entirely agree with him.

0:50:490:50:59

Of course there have been historic

problems with funding of mental

0:50:590:51:03

health and I hope that members

opposite would recognise as we

0:51:030:51:07

recognise on the side, going over

the decades that has not been enough

0:51:070:51:10

funding going into mental health but

of the question of the NHS, actually

0:51:100:51:15

this Government despite as we all

know inheriting an appalling fiscal

0:51:150:51:18

situation whereby we were

spending... The largest budget

0:51:180:51:29

deficit in peacetime history, we a

Government took a decision to

0:51:290:51:34

prioritise health and health

spending has risen every year under

0:51:340:51:36

this Government and we are committed

to implement in Simon Stephens'

0:51:360:51:43

recommendation he was a Labour

special adviser to advise the

0:51:430:51:48

Government of £8 billion of

additional funding. I am very

0:51:480:51:51

pleased we are able to do that and I

would be delighted to give way.

When

0:51:510:51:59

public services are stretched, under

resourced with the rising demands,

0:51:590:52:04

then it is more important than ever

that we have a quick process. Public

0:52:040:52:12

services do an exemplary job and

this Bill is not about criticising

0:52:120:52:16

them, it is about having the

regulated transparent process we can

0:52:160:52:21

minimise the harm to both the staff

and those that care for staff. I

0:52:210:52:26

have been contacted by many of my

constituents on this matter and

0:52:260:52:29

there is widespread public concern.

With the member agree that we do not

0:52:290:52:34

want to get this down to another

debate on another issue, let's stick

0:52:340:52:38

to what we're hear about today

please.

I am grateful, can I gently

0:52:380:52:46

point out that interventions must be

brief. I recognise the 670 and

0:52:460:52:50

seriousness of what she said that it

is huge pressure on time in respect

0:52:500:52:55

of this Bill and what might fall so

a certain self-denying Ordinance I

0:52:550:52:59

think is needed.

I thank for the

intervention and I know that she

0:52:590:53:05

liked greatly values the work of our

public sector workers. With respect,

0:53:050:53:12

I was seeking to respond to other

interventions made by members

0:53:120:53:15

opposite and members opposite would

seek to defend from making political

0:53:150:53:20

interventions that nature I will

happily refrain from rebutting them.

0:53:200:53:27

I think the root of this can

actually be traced back to my own

0:53:270:53:35

constituency which I proudly

represent and was born and grew up

0:53:350:53:39

in. I remember from my childhood the

way that mental health was treated.

0:53:390:53:43

We are on the edge of London and

London has historically been

0:53:430:53:49

surrounded by very large mental

health institutions. Just my own

0:53:490:53:55

constituency we had facilities such

as a very large hospital, and a

0:53:550:54:05

couple of areas and there were

positive ethos of these institutions

0:54:050:54:09

and I am fortunate to represent many

mental health nurses who still live

0:54:090:54:14

in the constituency, what else is

magicians, there was certainly a

0:54:140:54:21

positive ethos of rehabilitation for

people providing a very safe and

0:54:210:54:27

come space for them but the flip

side of that as there was a tendency

0:54:270:54:31

to good people in this magicians,

shut them away and never think about

0:54:310:54:34

problem again. -- these

institutions. We have sought to

0:54:340:54:42

change that approach will be

mainstream mental-health problems,

0:54:420:54:46

certainly in my own constituency...

I think it is important to

0:54:460:54:57

acknowledge that there are still far

too many young people with autism

0:54:570:55:02

and learning disability living for

the long-term and hospitals in this

0:55:020:55:05

country. That is a problem and that

is about the resources available for

0:55:050:55:11

their care but also how those

resources are spent. I think we need

0:55:110:55:17

a shift towards properly resourced

community settings for people with

0:55:170:55:22

autism and learning disabilities who

should not be in hospital for the

0:55:220:55:25

long-term.

She makes a very

important point, the closer to the

0:55:250:55:33

community treatment can be given,

the better the treatment because if

0:55:330:55:40

constituents are having to travel

long journeys particularly with

0:55:400:55:44

younger children to access mental

health care facilities, that adds to

0:55:440:55:48

the destruction in their lives and I

think with all of this there is a

0:55:480:55:52

journey that is happening and I am

glad that the Government is

0:55:520:55:56

addressing the need for this

journey. I think the experience many

0:55:560:56:01

of us now have is that mental health

is delivered at the primary care

0:56:010:56:05

level and certainly I know from my

experience speaking to GPs MIO

0:56:050:56:12

constituency they are now at the

front line of this process.

0:56:120:56:20

So, what is the answer now? The

first thing to do is ensure that we

0:56:210:56:25

have that parity of treatment

between mental and physical health.

0:56:250:56:29

Too often, it has been the case that

a broken arm or a limb is taken as a

0:56:290:56:34

serious injury, you are patched up

and treated properly, nobody doubts

0:56:340:56:40

that you have an injury. For too

long, it has been the case that if

0:56:400:56:43

people have a mental health

condition, it is not immediately

0:56:430:56:48

treated with the same seriousness.

There is a sense that the person

0:56:480:56:52

concerned as to prove that they have

a problem in the first place. I will

0:56:520:56:58

give way.

I am grateful. He is

making a really important point

0:56:580:57:00

here. Would he also agreed, however,

that around the need for parity of

0:57:000:57:07

esteem, there is also a need for

greater understanding of what it

0:57:070:57:10

really means to live with mental

health illness? That bills like this

0:57:100:57:17

are also important in raising

awareness of this particular what

0:57:170:57:22

can be very sensitive issue.

I think

my honourable friend -- thank my

0:57:220:57:28

honourable friend for her

intervention. It is not just

0:57:280:57:32

understanding the experience of the

person suffering from mental health,

0:57:320:57:35

it is also the knock-on effect of

the entire family. One thing that is

0:57:350:57:41

frequently raised by my constituents

is that when there is one child any

0:57:410:57:46

family with mental health issues is

how that then impact on the other

0:57:460:57:50

siblings and making sure that they

do not feel neglected and

0:57:500:57:54

disadvantaged as one sibling

necessarily gets more attention in

0:57:540:57:58

that process. Not only do we need to

change cultural attitudes towards

0:57:580:58:06

mental health, we also need to look

at the legislative framework that

0:58:060:58:08

underpins it. I think most of us

will agree that the 1983 was the

0:58:080:58:17

last time we had a serious

large-scale piece of legislation on.

0:58:170:58:22

That was when the old model I was

discussing earlier was the prevalent

0:58:220:58:25

model. There is a pressing need for

a larger piece of legislation which

0:58:250:58:32

can build upon the measures in the

piece of legislation and ensure that

0:58:320:58:36

we take a more comprehensive look at

that. I give way.

I thank him and

0:58:360:58:43

I'm enjoying listening to his

speech. One of the big areas that we

0:58:430:58:46

need to review is the use of police

cells. Whilst we have seen some

0:58:460:58:50

welcome declines in the use of those

lovely place of safety, it really is

0:58:500:58:54

unacceptable somebody ends up in a

police cell because they have been

0:58:540:58:58

unwell.

Yes, my honourable friend

makes a very important point. This

0:58:580:59:06

is something again that we are

waking up to. My right honourable

0:59:060:59:12

friend the Prime Minister as Home

Secretary took great strides to

0:59:120:59:17

change the approach the police take

so that there is not this automatic

0:59:170:59:20

printing of people into cells.

Again, if somebody is already

0:59:200:59:26

suffering from a mental health

condition, the worst possible thing

0:59:260:59:29

you can do is to have a night in the

cells, which of course all of us

0:59:290:59:35

have seen those conditions. I will

briefly but unconscious of time.

0:59:350:59:41

Years being extremely generous but

would he also agreed that the mental

0:59:410:59:47

health impact on criminal suspects,

we have strict time limits around

0:59:470:59:52

detention without warranty is not

theme around mental health and that

0:59:520:59:54

is something to be looked at future?

My honourable friend makes them

0:59:541:00:05

pointed intervention. It comes back

to the wider question of how we

1:00:051:00:11

achieve parity. -- makes an

important intervention. Parity is

1:00:111:00:14

not just about funding and the GP

facility, it is also about all of

1:00:141:00:20

these other forms, for want of a

better term micro-discriminations,

1:00:201:00:27

and I very much hope... I will give

way.

I thank him for giving way. I

1:00:271:00:33

agree that parity is not achieved

necessarily through just funding,

1:00:331:00:38

but would he... What would he say to

the data collected by my honourable

1:00:381:00:46

friend the Member for Liverpool

weather tree, who through Freedom of

1:00:461:00:49

Information was able to demonstrate

that half of all CCGs in the country

1:00:491:00:53

are looking to reduce the amount of

money they are spending on mental

1:00:531:00:57

health provision in their

communities so that they can put

1:00:571:01:00

more money into the acute pressures

of their communities, which are

1:01:001:01:04

struggling because of other funding

arrangements?

I thank the honourable

1:01:041:01:11

gentleman. This goes back to the

earlier point I was making. The

1:01:111:01:15

funding is there. We are increasing

funding for the NHS and its CCGs

1:01:151:01:19

should not be seeking to cut mental

health services in order to cross

1:01:191:01:25

subsidise into acute services and

certainly that is not the case, I

1:01:251:01:29

know, in my own CCG. But I think

that all of these points that ladies

1:01:291:01:36

and gentlemen on both sides of the

House have raised are very important

1:01:361:01:39

and I very much hope that in the

review of mental health that the

1:01:391:01:44

government announced in the Queen's

speech, all of these considerations

1:01:441:01:47

will be into account. It really

encompasses every area of government

1:01:471:01:54

activity, and I think a holistic

approach is very important. The

1:01:541:02:00

final point I would like, because I

am conscious of taking a little but

1:02:001:02:07

too much time...

Not at all!

Is

coordination. I know that for many

1:02:071:02:15

of my constituents, particularly and

I think this will often be the case

1:02:151:02:18

if sufferers from mental health find

themselves in contact with the

1:02:181:02:22

police, it is more severe mental

health episodes that often lead to

1:02:221:02:26

contact with the police. There is

sometimes a frustration as to which

1:02:261:02:31

agency is going to take

responsibility. If the police

1:02:311:02:34

recognise that there is a problem

with mental health, they will

1:02:341:02:38

frequently get in contact with

mental health services, the NHS, who

1:02:381:02:43

may then get in contact with mental

health services at the local

1:02:431:02:48

council, and there is a feeling with

the patients and their family that

1:02:481:02:54

they are being pushed from pillar to

post with no individual seeking to

1:02:541:03:01

take responsibility. So, I think it

is very important, and again coming

1:03:011:03:05

back to the provisions in this bill

and religion to the collection of

1:03:051:03:09

data, not only is the data

collected, the data also needs to be

1:03:091:03:13

shared effectively between

institutions. I also hope when it

1:03:131:03:18

comes to the review and what I hope

will then lead to fresh legislation

1:03:181:03:21

in this area, we look at a way of

providing some sort of coordination

1:03:211:03:25

so that there is somebody who can

effectively be a champion for the

1:03:251:03:31

person with mental health conditions

so that they feel less person can

1:03:311:03:35

bring together the experiences of

all the different institutions, and

1:03:351:03:38

I think at a time when families of

individual steel under so much

1:03:381:03:43

pressure, if they can feel there is

one person to whom they can relate,

1:03:431:03:47

rather than having to negotiate this

track of different bodies, I think

1:03:471:03:51

that could provide a much better

outcome for people. So, in

1:03:511:03:56

conclusion, once again I would like

to pay tribute to the honourable

1:03:561:04:00

member, the Member for Croydon

North, for bringing this important

1:04:001:04:04

issue to this House. I very much

hope that this piece of legislation

1:04:041:04:09

will complete its stages and make

its way onto the statute book but

1:04:091:04:12

also hope that it will be the

beginning of a wider process that

1:04:121:04:16

then can feed into fresh legislation

that can look at all the different

1:04:161:04:20

areas where we needed to ensure

there is genuine parity between

1:04:201:04:25

mental and physical health, which I

hope all honourable members will

1:04:251:04:29

agree is the ultimate goal.

It is a

pleasure to follow my colleague and

1:04:291:04:39

friend the Member for parts near and

I would like to congratulate also

1:04:391:04:42

the honourable member for Croydon

North Ralls the work that he has

1:04:421:04:45

done in bringing this to the floor

of the House. As my honourable

1:04:451:04:50

friend said, it is an extraordinary

feat, I have only been in the House

1:04:501:04:54

for two years but to actually

achieve of beating the systems of

1:04:541:04:59

the Parliamentary process and

bringing together so many voices to

1:04:591:05:03

ensure that a really important gap

in our legislative system can be

1:05:031:05:06

changed is a really impressive

effort. I am delighted to write and

1:05:061:05:10

speak in support of his bill. The

way we view

1:05:101:05:16

speak in support of his bill. The

way we view, diagnose and treatment

1:05:161:05:18

of a changed dramatically over the

last two years and I am delighted

1:05:181:05:21

that our government is taking the

lead on this matter now but we still

1:05:211:05:24

have a very long way to go. A

combination of excellent work by

1:05:241:05:28

health professionals, the Royal

colleges, so many other excellent

1:05:281:05:34

charities, many parliamentarians and

citizens right across our society,

1:05:341:05:39

their voices are starting to ensure

that mental health is, at last,

1:05:391:05:42

right up on the job of government

and society's priorities. Bearing in

1:05:421:05:46

mind just how much the fixture has

changed over recent years, it

1:05:461:05:51

somehow seems incomprehensible that

the Mental Health Act has remained

1:05:511:05:54

unchanged since its publication in

1983, which was when I started

1:05:541:05:58

secondary school, and I am

definitely not one of the younger

1:05:581:06:01

members in the House any more! To

think how policy has changed even

1:06:011:06:07

over the last decade remains of

stars to a piece of legislation set

1:06:071:06:11

up three decades ago can no longer

be anywhere near fit for purpose.

1:06:111:06:16

That, in itself, in some ways is a

good thing, that we have moved so

1:06:161:06:20

far in understanding what mental

health means. In fact, what mental

1:06:201:06:24

ill-health means. I often find it a

strange use of language to talk

1:06:241:06:29

about mental health will remain

somebody is unwell, because it is a

1:06:291:06:35

moment in otherwise healthy people's

lives when they are unwell. It is an

1:06:351:06:45

invisible part of our health and

ill-health through our fortunately

1:06:451:06:48

very long waits for most of us. It

is good news that the review is

1:06:481:06:53

ongoing and I look forward to

continuing to work with government

1:06:531:06:56

and ministers to ensure that we did

it effective reform across the

1:06:561:06:58

board. This will allow us to address

the use of force in mental health

1:06:581:07:02

unit and it is something I have

added substantial amount of

1:07:021:07:07

correspondence about from concerned

constituents and more widely family

1:07:071:07:10

and friends who will often they did

not want to bother me about this,

1:07:101:07:16

but in this instance it is something

that really bothers people and they

1:07:161:07:19

have actually dropped me a line to

highlight that they want me to speak

1:07:191:07:23

out on this as well. Constituents

particularly... Yes, of course.

Can

1:07:231:07:31

I congratulate my honourable friend

for bringing forward this bill? He

1:07:311:07:34

has done a very important thing for

the country and also for Croydon.

1:07:341:07:47

Seni died in a hospital on the

border of my constituency and my

1:07:501:07:55

heart goes out to his family. I had

a constituent who come to me this

1:07:551:07:58

week who had had a bipolar incident,

had ended up in a prison cell and

1:07:581:08:03

has been assaulted. He said it is

often the first port of call,

1:08:031:08:08

especially for those who for one

reason or another end up on the

1:08:081:08:11

streets. He went to a solicitor to

ask if he should take action on was

1:08:111:08:15

advised not to. Does the honourable

lady agree with me that this bill

1:08:151:08:20

will change practice but also

hopefully encourage people, when

1:08:201:08:24

things do go wrong, to speak out and

take action and feel that they will

1:08:241:08:27

get support in doing so?

I thank her

for her intervention and agree

1:08:271:08:34

absolutely. I am very pleased that

the numbers of those being held in

1:08:341:08:39

police cells has come down

dramatically in the last few years

1:08:391:08:46

but if people feel they are

suffering injustice they should

1:08:461:08:51

always take the police, in this

instance of that is where the

1:08:511:08:56

problem lay, to find another outlet

to be addressed. Every citizen in

1:08:561:09:05

our country should always feel able

to stand up and say this was wrong

1:09:051:09:12

and I am seeking to address that. I

would encourage her to encourage

1:09:121:09:22

constituents. Many people have

written to me with deep concerns

1:09:221:09:26

about the effect that use of force

me to vote on their own child, and

1:09:261:09:30

in some absolutely harrowing cases,

the invite, the effect it has had.

1:09:301:09:35

One detail how the use of force had

a lasting effect on the held not

1:09:351:09:40

only of the family member but of

course on the whole family, which

1:09:401:09:44

created years and years of trauma

and ongoing illness as a result of

1:09:441:09:49

unreasonable restraint. The use of

excessive force that has led to this

1:09:491:09:53

sort of long-term damage and, as in

the tragic case in Croydon North, a

1:09:531:10:01

death is an absolute tragedy and we

can never allow such abuses to take

1:10:011:10:05

place in our civilised society. It

is good to see the cases of such

1:10:051:10:09

terrible treatment are and the

numbers coming down, but if we ever

1:10:091:10:14

treat those who desperately need our

support when in a state of mental

1:10:141:10:19

ill-health and distress with force

and brutality, it is time for those

1:10:191:10:22

voices to be heard and to take

action for change. These abuses

1:10:221:10:26

cannot go unanswered or be tolerated

any longer. The movement towards

1:10:261:10:31

understanding mental ill-health

really is progressing and it is

1:10:311:10:34

absolutely right that the directions

in this bill will help to change

1:10:341:10:37

that practice. With this in mind, I

would like to speak on two specific

1:10:371:10:41

issues that are extremely close to

my heart. They are in relation to

1:10:411:10:47

autism in young people. It seems to

me that cross governmental

1:10:471:10:50

cooperation has been lacking in the

past on issues of mental health. If

1:10:501:10:54

we are to make a real impact in this

issue and change the cultural norms,

1:10:541:11:00

we need to make sure the Department

for health, Home Office, justice and

1:11:001:11:04

NHS England have proper, closer

working practices to deliver the

1:11:041:11:09

reforms that are so necessary and I

hope the Minister will undertake to

1:11:091:11:11

confirm that with the House later

today. This bill could make a real

1:11:111:11:15

difference in tackling the

inappropriate use of force is so

1:11:151:11:18

often used against patients, many of

whom are on the autism spectrum. A

1:11:181:11:24

recent Freedom of Information

request discovered there are 66,681

1:11:241:11:33

recorded instances of restraint in

England in 2015, which was an

1:11:331:11:35

increase on the year before. In

cases where there is the use of

1:11:351:11:38

physical, mechanical or based on

restraint, this can undermine the

1:11:381:11:42

individual's recovery, increasing

their risk of injury and long-term

1:11:421:11:45

harm. We should be charged with

protecting these people to get well

1:11:451:11:50

again. I would hope that many in the

South have read the National

1:11:501:11:55

Autistic Society's recent report on

transforming care.

1:11:551:12:07

It followed what happens to people

admitted to a mental health

1:12:071:12:13

hospital. One story recounted in the

report, spoke of a boy who was

1:12:131:12:22

completely failed, a very vulnerable

young man, who suffered a sequence

1:12:221:12:29

of dramatic experiences, which will

adversely affect four years. As the

1:12:291:12:34

mother of an autistic child, he's

just turned 18, so he's an adult,

1:12:341:12:40

and other family members, now

diagnosed, I am constantly concerned

1:12:401:12:45

that the invisibility of autism in

so many sufferers means at their

1:12:451:12:50

mental health or ill-health is

completely failed to be understood

1:12:501:12:55

or indeed identified and those

crisis situations. I used to have to

1:12:551:13:00

explain to teachers in my son's

schools, who didn't understand how

1:13:001:13:04

his Asperger's affected him. If he

had a broken leg, with the ask them

1:13:041:13:10

to run up the stairs and join in the

football match? They would look

1:13:101:13:14

bemused, and I would say, he is the

state of deep stress and trauma at

1:13:141:13:18

this point. You would expecting him

to sit quietly in the classroom and

1:13:181:13:24

pay attention as if he was in a

state of wellness. This is not

1:13:241:13:27

possible. Teachers who committed a

huge amount of time to help to be in

1:13:271:13:34

the mainstream system, to understand

what that meant, that invisibility,

1:13:341:13:39

not only of autism, but also of

mental ill health until a crisis

1:13:391:13:43

hit, means that those in society you

cannot see it, and that unless we

1:13:431:13:49

are tuned to the individual sufferer

ordeal wider identification of what

1:13:491:13:53

that means, we cannot help. So it is

so important that the frameworks and

1:13:531:13:58

that those charged with looking

after those who may be in need is

1:13:581:14:03

absolutely rigorous. We cannot

expect those who are suffering ill

1:14:031:14:08

health, as we would not ask the boy

with a broken leg to play in a

1:14:081:14:12

football match, we must do the same

with those when they are in a mental

1:14:121:14:15

health crisis. But what can we say

when we hear of these harrowing

1:14:151:14:21

stories? To imagine the tragedy is

that those families have to go

1:14:211:14:29

through. The instinct can no longer

be to allow things to go on. They do

1:14:291:14:34

need improvement. We cannot just

tweak them here and there, we cannot

1:14:341:14:38

ignore issues that need urgent

attention and reform. I am really

1:14:381:14:42

glad the government recognises this

and is supporting this Bill. These

1:14:421:14:50

isolated cases are sadly too great

in terms of autistic young people,

1:14:501:14:56

and NHS digital figures show that is

still an increase in people being

1:14:561:15:03

unnecessarily restrained, because

they cannot express their crises, in

1:15:031:15:09

a way that there are typical people

would often can. So we cannot go on

1:15:091:15:15

with the restraints that severely

endanger those most vulnerable, who

1:15:151:15:18

need considered it, appropriate and

construct of treatment programmes,

1:15:181:15:22

which meet the autistic individual's

needs. Ways to reform are included

1:15:221:15:29

in this Bill and there are a number

of concepts, which are constituents

1:15:291:15:34

expect of us, of governments, and of

our public services right through

1:15:341:15:39

the systems. I would like to cover a

couple of them. Firstly, the

1:15:391:15:45

question of transparency, that every

time any restraining force in a

1:15:451:15:49

mental health unit will be used, it

will be recorded and fully detailed.

1:15:491:15:54

To know, if you are well, that if

you were to be in a state of mental

1:15:541:15:58

ill-health, that would be recorded,

because often, you're not able to

1:15:581:16:02

think clearly. Again, if you have a

broken leg or arm, your mental

1:16:021:16:08

capacities are functioning fine, you

will remember if they put the cast

1:16:081:16:11

on the wrong arm. You would notice

that. But if you're in a state of

1:16:111:16:16

deep mental ill-health, you are not

always able to see the world clearly

1:16:161:16:20

at that point. So to a record would

make a big difference to empower the

1:16:201:16:32

sufferers to know they're being

properly looked after. Secondly, in

1:16:321:16:34

terms of accountability, in order

major institutions, we need

1:16:341:16:35

accountability in everything that is

done. It is no mean feat in

1:16:351:16:38

practice, but every institution will

have to have a named individual

1:16:381:16:42

responsible in place, on the use of

force and implementation. Perhaps to

1:16:421:16:52

have a named person who those in

distress can go to in the safety and

1:16:521:16:56

knowledge that they will be

supported, understood and given a

1:16:561:16:59

fair hearing, is something that is

so important. Would she accept that

1:16:591:17:09

named individual must be able to

prove that they have been trained in

1:17:091:17:15

the responsible way in which they

handle these incidents? And more

1:17:151:17:19

particularly that they are trained

again on a regular basis? Because

1:17:191:17:23

that is one of the weaknesses of

these units, a lack of training and

1:17:231:17:27

a lack of updating people's

training. I agree absolutely, that

1:17:271:17:34

getting that training right in the

first place, understanding

1:17:341:17:38

unconscious bias, but I think we

invariably suffer from in general

1:17:381:17:42

life, but within that environment,

in such a complex field, and

1:17:421:17:48

ensuring that de-escalation

techniques are learned and

1:17:481:17:51

constantly reiterated, so that those

extraordinary people who work in

1:17:511:17:54

this sector are supported and

constantly reminded and given the

1:17:541:17:58

right tools to make sure that they

can look after our family members

1:17:581:18:02

and constituents when they are in

these crises.

One of the things that

1:18:021:18:10

is noticeable than the evidence

about this is a huge variation in

1:18:101:18:14

the use of restraints, and that

there are some other settings with

1:18:141:18:18

similar groups of patients who are

using far more restrained than

1:18:181:18:21

others. Getting to the bottom of

that and trying to improve the

1:18:211:18:26

standards in all settings is surely

part of the key of solving this

1:18:261:18:29

problem.

I think that's absolutely

right. So often, best practice,

1:18:291:18:37

those who have had perhaps through

the circumstances of patients, have

1:18:371:18:42

been able to develop techniques that

are more sophisticated, they haven't

1:18:421:18:47

de-escalation programmes, that needs

to be shared. But as the great

1:18:471:18:52

challenge. So often in education and

other public services, to find an

1:18:521:18:56

effective way to share those best

practices, so that those who are

1:18:561:19:01

doing their best, but not

necessarily with the most effective

1:19:011:19:04

tools, to help patients to recover

and restore the stability. These

1:19:041:19:13

important areas of policy,

transparency and accountability,

1:19:131:19:17

will protect patients, promote

dignity and respect. I think that's

1:19:171:19:21

something that everyone who passes

through mental health system should

1:19:211:19:24

receive, dignity in their care and

respect for them as an individual in

1:19:241:19:30

our society. I had a lovely chat

with the gentleman on the street

1:19:301:19:32

last night, not far from here, who

had a notice, as he was asking for

1:19:321:19:39

money, he needed £35 when his bed

and it is, it was going to be his

1:19:391:19:43

night of luxury. His sign said, this

can happen to everyone. That makes

1:19:431:19:49

me stop and chat. He was a man whose

life story was just unfortunate, as

1:19:491:19:54

series of unfortunate events and

then he was on the streets. Mental

1:19:541:19:59

ill-health and strike everyone. To

suggest that anyone is not entitled

1:19:591:20:04

to that dignity would be wrong.

I

think she raises a very important

1:20:041:20:09

point. We must be careful not to

judge people in that situation. The

1:20:091:20:13

result was a temptation to think

that there could be other reasons

1:20:131:20:16

for it. People are often the victims

of child abuse and so on. There

1:20:161:20:24

still needs to be a change in

society's attitudes. You look at the

1:20:241:20:29

appalling cases of people being

abused by other embers of the

1:20:291:20:32

public.

I think that's exactly

right. As we go forward, we need to

1:20:321:20:39

set these new markers to make sure

it is a cultural change, it is that

1:20:391:20:45

understanding that mental ill-health

as part of our life experience, but

1:20:451:20:48

most of us may experience it in one

form or another, but for those who

1:20:481:20:54

are the most vulnerable, we need to

make sure the practices are the best

1:20:541:20:58

they can be, so that dignity and

respect is afforded to every single

1:20:581:21:01

person who needs that support.

Transparency will also allow health

1:21:011:21:08

professionals to manage the risk, to

protect not only the patient, but

1:21:081:21:13

also our public servants, and it

protects them from false

1:21:131:21:17

allegations, as well as having that

evidence, should things go wrong.

1:21:171:21:21

The question of the body worn Kamala

is so important. In HMP

1:21:211:21:27

Northumberland, the prison in my

constituency, we were one of the

1:21:271:21:30

trial prisoners to try this out.

It's been running for two years, and

1:21:301:21:35

there has been a dramatic drop, not

only in the cases of reporting of

1:21:351:21:42

argy-bargy between prison officers

and enemies, but in terms of their

1:21:421:21:46

behaviour, because inmates who might

have decided to have a go, don't

1:21:461:21:50

bother any more, because it will be

filmed. And the relationship has

1:21:501:21:55

improved so much as a result. It is

like a good teacher in a classroom,

1:21:551:22:03

who knows that if you give a good

framework, everyone works in a more

1:22:031:22:09

considered and conservatory fashion.

I am a huge supporter of body worn

1:22:091:22:15

Kamala is on police officers and

prison officers, because I believe

1:22:151:22:19

it protects the officers and also

members of the public. Does she

1:22:191:22:22

agree that are just as in domestic

violence cases, body worn Kamala 's

1:22:221:22:29

will help those victims who perhaps

don't have the confidence cannot

1:22:291:22:33

raise the consequences of giving

evidence against that assailants, so

1:22:331:22:36

to the case might be in prisons.

I

think that's right. It is so

1:22:361:22:44

interesting that so often, with our

social media world we live in,

1:22:441:22:51

anonymity allows our level of poor

behaviour. If that body worn Kamala

1:22:511:22:57

allows people to remember that

everything from good manners and

1:22:571:23:00

behaviour through to construct of

dialogue, rather than other forms of

1:23:001:23:07

drama, this must be a tool we should

be encouraging across-the-board. One

1:23:071:23:12

hopes behaviour can improve one you

remember how it is that these things

1:23:121:23:16

can be done more constructively and

with less pilot interventions.

Would

1:23:161:23:23

she agree that one of the bonuses of

body worn footage is that, compared

1:23:231:23:29

to the current process, you don't

need a long investigation, it takes

1:23:291:23:34

an officer of duty, and the

uncertainty means, the certainty

1:23:341:23:40

means you can get to a quick read

resolution and allow the

1:23:401:23:45

organisation to move on.

I think

that's exactly right. It's a

1:23:451:23:50

common-sense measure which actually

helps to have a dramatic impact on

1:23:501:23:54

the way our mental health units

work, for the well-being of staff

1:23:541:23:58

and those who are there to receive

treatment. One more important aspect

1:23:581:24:04

of this Bill is that justice for a

potential victim becomes possible.

1:24:041:24:10

For justice to be done, we need a

new and open approach to allow our

1:24:101:24:15

public services to learn from past

mistakes and make sure no family or

1:24:151:24:19

individual has to suffer the tragedy

of loss on injustices that has too

1:24:191:24:24

often been experienced by patients

and their families. I have had one

1:24:241:24:27

constituency case of a young girl,

who was put into restraint, not with

1:24:271:24:34

in even mental health unit, but

within a special school environment.

1:24:341:24:39

Through the city she suffered from,

she hit her head and lost her sight.

1:24:391:24:43

Truly tragic, and the family have

fought and fought to find a way to

1:24:431:24:47

get the dress and a better

educational framework for this child

1:24:471:24:53

to develop, having developed this

avoidable blindness. This great

1:24:531:24:57

challenge of ensuring we have a

system that is open and transparent,

1:24:571:25:00

so that families can be heard, and

they don't have to fight for years.

1:25:001:25:05

You just mentioned a case in a

special school. I would like to

1:25:051:25:09

raise in the house the concern about

restraint in special schools.

1:25:091:25:14

There's also a case in my

constituency that some autistic

1:25:141:25:18

boys, who went some -- through some

really concerning constraint which

1:25:181:25:25

lead to see these bruising when they

were very young. They've now been

1:25:251:25:29

taken out of that setting, but it is

something that needs to be looked

1:25:291:25:33

into.

I would be happy to work with

her, perhaps something we need to

1:25:331:25:40

look at more widely, because again,

that's area where these special

1:25:401:25:46

schools have extraordinary staff who

work there to look after the

1:25:461:25:50

children, who have a breadth of

needs that are never the same two

1:25:501:25:54

days running. We need to make sure

they are empowered with the right

1:25:541:25:57

skills and techniques to support

these children, he can beat

1:25:571:26:01

fulfilling and full lives if we can

get them through the education

1:26:011:26:04

system. As I used to say to my son,

he hears it when I do this, but

1:26:041:26:11

tough, it's too late. The reality

is, being a child in a mainstream

1:26:111:26:16

education system, if he can make it

to adult it, you are free to be

1:26:161:26:23

whoever it is Godfrey did you to be

invented can flourish.

1:26:231:26:30

The challenge that we have is that

our public services, be there for

1:26:301:26:33

those who are suffering ill-health

or children in special needs

1:26:331:26:36

schools, is that we have a framework

that supports them, wrap them with

1:26:361:26:40

the skills and techniques needed to

help them get well but also to

1:26:401:26:46

ensure that they receive the dignity

that everybody would expect a family

1:26:461:26:49

member in hospital for any other

physical ailment would receive. In

1:26:491:26:54

conclusion, the proposals raised by

this bill are personally really

1:26:541:26:59

important to me and profoundly

important to so many other

1:26:591:27:02

constituents who have experienced

restraint and the family's lack of

1:27:021:27:06

voice in protecting children or

relatives in this situation is, or

1:27:061:27:09

indeed from being able to get any

form of justice or restitution for

1:27:091:27:13

the damage to their family members.

Legislation can ginger practices and

1:27:131:27:18

attitudes towards the care for those

who need it most, and I am delighted

1:27:181:27:23

that this bill is being brought

forward and I give it my

1:27:231:27:27

wholehearted support.

Thank you,

Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like

1:27:271:27:32

to thank my honourable friend the

Member for Croydon North for

1:27:321:27:35

bringing this bill forward. He

certainly made a very powerful case

1:27:351:27:39

for the builders morning. Everything

we have heard has made it very clear

1:27:391:27:42

why this bill is necessary. I want

to congratulate honourable members

1:27:421:27:47

on both sides for the constructive

way they have contributed to this

1:27:471:27:50

debate so far and I believe there is

broad support for the measures the

1:27:501:27:53

bill. Whether our disagreements, I

hope they can be ironed out at the

1:27:531:27:59

committee stage. My honourable

friend spoke movingly about the case

1:27:591:28:04

of Olaseni Lewis, who tragically

died after being restrained based on

1:28:041:28:09

any mental health hospital, and we

have heard other examples today of

1:28:091:28:14

the issues that this bill hopes to

address. -- restrained face down.

1:28:141:28:18

Sadly, this case is not an isolated

incident. Restraint is still used

1:28:181:28:23

far too regularly, despite

guidelines that it is only used as a

1:28:231:28:29

last resort. Guidelines state that

the dangerous practice of faith

1:28:291:28:33

don't restraint should be phased

out, but unfortunately, it is still

1:28:331:28:37

used Whately. There is variation...

I am not going to give way. There

1:28:371:28:44

are other items of business we want

to get to. There is also an issue,

1:28:441:28:52

as members have violated,

unconscious bias. As we have heard,

1:28:521:28:56

young black men are statistically

more likely to be seen as having

1:28:561:29:01

psychosis or schizophrenia and are

at risk of inappropriate risk of

1:29:011:29:05

force, as are women. No, I am afraid

that we have got other members who

1:29:051:29:12

wish to speak. Figures from the

Metropolitan Police show that in

1:29:121:29:14

London 36% of the 12,605 users of

force between April and June

1:29:141:29:19

involved black people, despite their

accounting just 12% of London's

1:29:191:29:23

population. Research has shown that

women, who make up 46% of patients,

1:29:231:29:28

are over half of all incidents of

face-down restraint. Their mental

1:29:281:29:34

health conditions are often related

to experience of violence or abuse,

1:29:341:29:39

so using restrained to a survivor of

that risks traumatising the patient.

1:29:391:29:44

It is essential we take steps to

reduce the risk of force and address

1:29:441:29:50

the unconscious bias and the bill

seeks to reverse through

1:29:501:29:55

transparency, evidence,

accountability and justice. It will

1:29:551:29:57

increase transparency. Data is

currently not collective unit

1:29:571:30:03

formally, and how restraint is

disproportionately used against

1:30:031:30:06

certain demographic is hard to

collect. The registered provider

1:30:061:30:09

must keep a record of any physical

restraint of a person at any of its

1:30:091:30:13

mental health units. This will

include the place, time and duration

1:30:131:30:17

of the restraint and also cover

gender, age and ethnicity of the

1:30:171:30:21

person restrained and, critically,

justifications for using that

1:30:211:30:24

restraint. Recording when, how and

why it is being used, who it is

1:30:241:30:28

being used on and what steps were

taken to avoid the use of restraint

1:30:281:30:38

in a uniform way will increase

transparency, allowing us to take

1:30:381:30:40

steps to improve the system were

issues of unconscious bias or

1:30:401:30:42

overuse of restraint occur. The bill

introduces steps to build and

1:30:421:30:47

improve the evidence available were

restrained as you. This bill will

1:30:471:30:51

require all police officers to wear

body cameras when called to a mental

1:30:511:30:55

health unit for any reason, unless

there are clear operational reasons

1:30:551:30:59

for not doing so. Research carried

out at the University of Cambridge

1:30:591:31:01

found that the use of police body

worn cameras made the use of force

1:31:011:31:06

and 50% less likely. Further, the

number of complaints filed against

1:31:061:31:10

officers reduced tenfold. The

evidence shows off that this measure

1:31:101:31:16

actually works. Increased public

trust in the police and protect

1:31:161:31:19

police officers from spurious

complaints. Overall, it doesn't seek

1:31:191:31:22

to improve accountability. The bill

creates two further duties. It

1:31:221:31:27

ensures that the responsible person

makes and maintained a written

1:31:271:31:30

policy for the use of physical

restraint and takes steps to ensure

1:31:301:31:34

it is only used in compliance with

this policy, and also ensures

1:31:341:31:37

training is provided to all

front-line staff. Finally, I want to

1:31:371:31:42

look at the way the bill improves

justice. We want to ensure that

1:31:421:31:45

tragedies like the one we have heard

about today do not happen again. The

1:31:451:31:49

bulk of this bill works towards this

goal. When tragedies such as the one

1:31:491:31:55

that happened to Olaseni Lewis do

occur, we need to make sure that

1:31:551:31:59

they are properly investigated and

the family received justice. This

1:31:591:32:03

makes it compulsory that an

independent investigation carried

1:32:031:32:05

out whenever a death occurs in a

mental health unit whenever the

1:32:051:32:09

person has been physically

restrained. This will in the scandal

1:32:091:32:11

of the family is not knowing the

circumstances of their loved one's

1:32:111:32:14

get. This is a step towards a model

of care rather than containment. It

1:32:141:32:23

contained measurable -- measures

which will support patients, their

1:32:231:32:25

families and emergency services

workers. It will increase public

1:32:251:32:27

trust and promote dignity and

respect in mental health services.

1:32:271:32:31

Restraint is used too often and

disproportionately in certain

1:32:311:32:34

sections of society and this cannot

be allowed to continue. I hope that

1:32:341:32:38

the Minister will support the bill

and allow it to pass to committee

1:32:381:32:41

stage as well.

Thank you, Madam

Deputy Speaker. It is a privilege to

1:32:411:32:47

be called to contribute on this

important topic. I know that many

1:32:471:32:52

constituents who wrote to me asking

me to participate today will be

1:32:521:32:55

delighted that I have an opportunity

to highlight some of the issues that

1:32:551:32:59

they raise with me. At the outset, I

would like to commend the honourable

1:32:591:33:03

member for Croydon North is not just

for securing this debate and

1:33:031:33:08

championing of this bill, but also

in the constructors and consensual

1:33:081:33:12

way that he has gone about that. --

constructive. So much has changed in

1:33:121:33:18

our understanding of mental health.

There was a time when we thought of

1:33:181:33:23

mental health problems as something

that happened to other people. Away

1:33:231:33:28

from ordinary life. Now, how many of

us have a friend, a colleague or a

1:33:281:33:34

family member who we know has

suffered from mental ill health?

1:33:341:33:38

That is because more people rightly

no longer feel any shame because of

1:33:381:33:47

a mental health problem. Because

society is only journey of

1:33:471:33:52

understanding, attitudes are

changing and stigmas are breaking

1:33:521:33:54

down. We all recognise that good

mental health is no less important

1:33:541:34:01

than good physical health, but there

is still so much more for us to do.

1:34:011:34:06

This bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, is

the next step in our National

1:34:061:34:10

journey towards ending the

injustices that those who experience

1:34:101:34:16

mental health problems still face.

It is for this reason that I would

1:34:161:34:21

take this opportunity to again

congratulate my honourable friend

1:34:211:34:24

the Member for Croydon North, who

has spent many years working with

1:34:241:34:28

the family of the late Olaseni Lewis

Lewis as they fought for the truth

1:34:281:34:33

of what happened for their -- to

their son. It is crucial that we

1:34:331:34:38

learn the right lessons from what

happened to him. That is why I am

1:34:381:34:43

pleased to be sure today and to

discuss the important changes that

1:34:431:34:48

this bill will make to the

transparency of mental health units.

1:34:481:34:52

Then my contribution to this debate,

I wanted to highlight three areas in

1:34:521:34:57

particular. Firstly, how young

people specifically are affected by

1:34:571:35:03

mental ill-health. Secondly, to

discuss some of the measures are

1:35:031:35:07

already being put in place by the

government to help improve diagnosis

1:35:071:35:10

and treatment, and lastly, to touch

on just a few of the vital changes

1:35:101:35:17

that this bill will introduce. So,

to turn firstly to the topic of

1:35:171:35:22

mental health and young people,

Madam Deputy Speaker, I am

1:35:221:35:26

passionate about helping young

people get the best possible start

1:35:261:35:30

in life. Children, and indeed young

adults, should face no barrier to

1:35:301:35:36

making the most of their unique

talents, and enjoying their lives to

1:35:361:35:40

the field. Often, in this chamber,

we think of the obstacles that young

1:35:401:35:46

people may face in terms of social

mobility, access to a good job or

1:35:461:35:52

apprenticeship, are getting the

right education. But today, we are

1:35:521:35:57

absolutely right to be easier to

highlight the mental health merits

1:35:571:36:02

no less of our attention. For, if we

are to ensure that young people can

1:36:021:36:06

make the most of the opportunities

that they have and deserve, in

1:36:061:36:11

mental health provision for them

must be as accessible and as

1:36:111:36:14

high-quality as possible. We know

the sad truth that mental health

1:36:141:36:21

issues disproportionately affect

young people. Now, many of us in

1:36:211:36:28

this chamber are all too familiar

with the negativity and the hurtful

1:36:281:36:31

comments that some people choose to

spread through social media. Now,

1:36:311:36:37

put yourselves in the shoes of a

young, impressionable teenager or

1:36:371:36:42

indeed primary school student. One

in ten young people say they have

1:36:421:36:48

been a victim of cyber bullying. It

is hard to imagine how difficult it

1:36:481:36:53

might be for a young person when

they are smartphone or their social

1:36:531:36:58

media becomes a way for police to

reach them. On this point, I would

1:36:581:37:03

commend Google, who recently

participated in an excellent

1:37:031:37:09

workshop in my constituency, talking

to primary school children about

1:37:091:37:12

Internet safety and how young people

can protect themselves online from

1:37:121:37:16

unwanted and hurtful attention.

Google, I believe, is rolling out

1:37:161:37:21

this project across the country and

I would urge my honourable members

1:37:211:37:24

on both sidess of the House to work

with them when they come to their

1:37:241:37:29

constituencies, go into schools and

talk to young people about the

1:37:291:37:32

importance of protecting themselves

online.

That is fascinating, what my

1:37:321:37:40

honourable friend is saying. May I

ask whether parents will be able to

1:37:401:37:45

put some sort of inhibitor onto

Facebook, or is it entirely just

1:37:451:37:49

going to be child?

My honourable

friend makes an excellent point, and

1:37:491:37:56

the workshop also provides tax for

children to take to their

1:37:561:38:00

appearance, which teachers will also

give them, so that parents can

1:38:001:38:04

become much more engaged with their

children's online presence. That is

1:38:041:38:08

something I, as a parent of young

children, and starting to be more

1:38:081:38:11

aware of, as I am sure many of us

are. We all must be aware of what

1:38:111:38:16

our children are doing, in the same

way we are careful when they cross

1:38:161:38:19

the street when they go to the we

must be careful about what they do

1:38:191:38:28

online. I know... I would be

delighted.

I am very grateful. He is

1:38:281:38:30

absolutely right to draw attention

to wear sensible measures are put in

1:38:301:38:34

place to help potential victims, but

it has got to go beyond that.

1:38:341:38:39

Perpetrators of abuse as well have

got to understand there will be

1:38:391:38:42

consequences for them so that the

onus is not always did on the

1:38:421:38:45

victim, but the perpetrator can

expect to be punished as well.

1:38:451:38:49

Again, my honourable friend makes an

excellent point of one and only

1:38:491:38:53

spoken about before, and the Member

for North West Hampshire, again, on

1:38:531:38:57

this topic has spoken passionately

in this about more that we need to

1:38:571:39:01

need to do to protect children

online and ensure that our children

1:39:011:39:05

have a safe place to play and learn

about the world around them.

I thank

1:39:051:39:10

him for giving way and think he

rightly pays tribute to the work of

1:39:101:39:15

our honourable friend the Member for

North West amateur. He makes an

1:39:151:39:19

important point which pertains to

mental health which is that children

1:39:191:39:22

need to have a safe architecture in

which to grow up. Just as we do in

1:39:221:39:26

the physical world as parents, they

must have that safety and security

1:39:261:39:31

in their online world, where

increasingly children spend more of

1:39:311:39:34

their time.

He is absolutely right

and has said it better than I could

1:39:341:39:38

see it myself, so I will move back

to the physical world, if I may. The

1:39:381:39:48

sad truth is the evidence is there

that self harm amongst young people

1:39:481:39:51

is on the rise. It is absolutely

right that the government has

1:39:511:39:53

responded to this by improving

mental health training in schools,

1:39:531:39:55

and many colleagues have already

mentioned the importance of

1:39:551:39:57

appropriate training for those who

are dealing with children, or indeed

1:39:571:40:02

adults, with mental health issues.

This is absolutely vital and it will

1:40:021:40:07

help teachers and staff at school is

not just identify but also assist at

1:40:071:40:10

risk children. He is talking about

mental health treatment for children

1:40:101:40:18

and young people where we know there

is a huge amount of work to do to

1:40:181:40:21

improve services and meet rising

demand, but does he welcome, as I

1:40:211:40:26

do, that last year an extra 21,000

children were treated by childrens

1:40:261:40:31

and Young Persons act mental health

services, so we are making progress?

1:40:311:40:36

I thank her for that comment and now

she is a tireless advocate for

1:40:361:40:40

health care services, especially

mental health, in this place. I did

1:40:401:40:44

not know that particular statistic

but it is very welcome and I am sure

1:40:441:40:47

will be welcomed by members on both

sides of this House. Furthermore, it

1:40:471:40:51

should be our aim that children are

not sent out of area to be treated

1:40:511:40:59

for general mental health

conditions. Accessibility is an

1:40:591:41:01

issue I am specifically focused on,

representing a very large and

1:41:011:41:04

sparsely populated rural

constituency. Right now, the mental

1:41:041:41:09

health trust is looking to shift

inpatient services away from our

1:41:091:41:15

excellent local hospital, the

Friarage, in Northallerton, to

1:41:151:41:18

places as far afield as Darlington,

Middlesbrough and indeed Bishop

1:41:181:41:23

Auckland, which would be over an

hour and a half's drive for some

1:41:231:41:27

patients. This is of considerable

concern to me and no doubt a

1:41:271:41:30

situation that other colleagues will

have experienced themselves. Amidst

1:41:301:41:34

this background, we owe it to the

young people of this country to

1:41:341:41:39

ensure that mental health services

are indeed safe and transparent. So,

1:41:391:41:43

when young people seek out, like the

Lewis family did, they will receive

1:41:431:41:48

it secure in the knowledge that they

will receive the high standards of

1:41:481:41:52

care that we all expect. Secondly,

to turn to the action that the

1:41:521:41:58

government is already taking on this

important topic.

1:41:581:42:07

Legislating for parity was a

landmark step to tackle the

1:42:071:42:12

injustices that people suffering

from mental health problems need.

1:42:121:42:18

This will require not just effort

but determination. But we cannot be

1:42:181:42:23

in any doubt over the government's

efforts, led by a Prime Minister

1:42:231:42:27

passionate about this issue, to do

more than ever before to bring about

1:42:271:42:32

real change, to tackle what has been

so aptly described as a burning

1:42:321:42:37

injustice. The Prime Minister has

overseen a £1 billion increase in

1:42:371:42:43

the funding available for mental

health. And, as my colleague has

1:42:431:42:53

mentioned, she has championed a

reduction in the number of people

1:42:531:42:56

suffering a mental health crisis to

end up any police rather than eight

1:42:561:43:01

Place of safety. I know the whole

house will eagerly anticipate the

1:43:011:43:05

conclusion of the review led by

Professor Sir Simon Wesley. He will

1:43:051:43:11

look at why detention rates under

the Mental Health Act are

1:43:111:43:14

increasing. And we should examine

the important, sensitive and complex

1:43:141:43:22

issue...

Yes, I'd be delighted to.

Thank you for giving way. Let me

1:43:221:43:28

congratulate my honourable friend

from North Croydon. The point I

1:43:281:43:34

would like to bring to your

attention is this. I have had a

1:43:341:43:41

number of constituents, including

professionals who work in this

1:43:411:43:45

field, and they point to the point

that racism causes people from BAe M

1:43:451:43:52

E backgrounds to experience mental

health issues. We have heading

1:43:521:43:54

number of stats that BAME people are

more likely to be admitted to

1:43:541:44:06

hospital, especially Afro-Caribbean

people, who are overrepresented in

1:44:061:44:10

hospital. It is about unconscious

bias. Among clinical professionals,

1:44:101:44:16

they have to meet the needs of

people from to and religious

1:44:161:44:21

backgrounds. Do you believe it is

right that this bill increases data

1:44:211:44:26

and transparency in this area?

I

think my honourable friend, his

1:44:261:44:35

intervention was timely, because I

was just about to say, we should of

1:44:351:44:39

course examine the important,

complex and sensitive issue of

1:44:391:44:44

whether minorities are

disproportionately suffering poor

1:44:441:44:47

mental health treatment or outcomes.

But I do think we should be careful

1:44:471:44:51

about reaching for the knee jerk

conclusion, that may be potentially

1:44:511:44:57

mistaken, and labelling the problem

as one of institutional racism. I

1:44:571:45:00

hope that Sir Simon Wesley takes

note of the arguments that have been

1:45:001:45:05

made forcefully by the former deputy

Mayor of London, because she has

1:45:051:45:12

cited a social and community

psychiatrist with 30 years of

1:45:121:45:15

clinical experience in this area,

who has argued that institutional

1:45:151:45:19

racism in his profession is not the

primary cause of BAME community is

1:45:191:45:26

being disproportionately affected by

these issues. He cites studies that

1:45:261:45:28

show BAME communities and migrant

groups are more exposed to mental

1:45:281:45:34

health risk factors. We should

tackle those risk factors as a

1:45:341:45:38

matter of priority. Those include

things like family breakdown,

1:45:381:45:42

substance abuse, poverty, living in

areas with low social cohesion and

1:45:421:45:47

the personal experience of migration

and prior incidents of racial

1:45:471:45:51

prejudice. It is a sensitive area.

The headline numbers pose difficult

1:45:511:45:56

questions for a public services, but

we should get to grips with the

1:45:561:46:01

underlying data, before reaching the

conclusion is that may be incorrect

1:46:011:46:03

and not pay tribute are doing the

best of intentions. We must indeed

1:46:031:46:09

be more ambitious, and to use every

opportunity to further our efforts.

1:46:091:46:15

Programmes such as including mental

health awareness courses in the

1:46:151:46:19

National citizens servers, or indeed

the £150 million the government is

1:46:191:46:24

investing to support teenagers with

eating disorders, the ways that are

1:46:241:46:28

practical and will make sure that

mental health isn't something we

1:46:281:46:32

discuss in isolation, or something

that can only happen in a clinical

1:46:321:46:35

setting.

Does he agree with me that

the recent announcement that 1

1:46:351:46:40

million people are going to be

trained in mental health first aid

1:46:401:46:43

is a huge step forward in raising

the skills and awareness of how we

1:46:431:46:47

deal with mental health?

She makes

an excellent point and displays her

1:46:471:46:52

knowledge of this area. I think that

is absolutely the right solution,

1:46:521:46:55

that we can bring help to people

where they need it in as many

1:46:551:47:00

possible settings as we can and I

welcome the number of people being

1:47:001:47:05

trained. Mental health provision

needs to be part of an ongoing

1:47:051:47:10

conversation about the development

of young people and the issues they

1:47:101:47:13

face. I am confident that we, as a

society, are now heading in the

1:47:131:47:20

right direction. But, as I have

noted, despite the substantial

1:47:201:47:25

amount of progress, we cannot

believe that the job is done. That

1:47:251:47:31

is why I will turn briefly to the

Bill that my honourable friend has

1:47:311:47:37

introduced odes talk about in just a

few provisions in it and why I

1:47:371:47:41

believe it will make a real

difference to the transparency in

1:47:411:47:44

treatment of young people across the

country. The Bill will establish the

1:47:441:47:49

requirement that mental health units

must publish how and when the use of

1:47:491:47:53

force. This appears to me to be an

eminently sensible change. All of us

1:47:531:47:58

will be familiar with the detailed

reports from Ofsted and the Care

1:47:581:48:03

Quality Commission, the information

that they publish gives us a window

1:48:031:48:08

into how our public services are

being run. The strengths and

1:48:081:48:12

weaknesses of organisations being

made available, gives us the

1:48:121:48:18

transparency we need to know what

improvements we must make. I see no

1:48:181:48:23

reason why this should be any

different with data on the use of

1:48:231:48:27

force. But it is not just the

general public that needs this

1:48:271:48:31

transparency. It is the families of

patients who force has been used

1:48:311:48:36

against. Of course, sometimes,

health professionals will make the

1:48:361:48:42

difficult judgment to use

proportionate force in certain

1:48:421:48:47

circumstances, but it took seven

years until the Lewis family were

1:48:471:48:49

unable to get the full truth about

the event that led to their son's

1:48:491:48:54

death. No family should be put in

this position ever again. So the

1:48:541:49:01

Bill also establishes a duty on the

service provider of a mental health

1:49:011:49:05

unit to record any instance of the

use of force on a patient. In

1:49:051:49:11

addition to recording several

demographic characteristics. Added

1:49:111:49:13

together with the requirements for

police officers attending units to

1:49:131:49:19

wear a body camera, this bill will

help us to be much clearer about how

1:49:191:49:24

force is being used, against whom

and why. I also would highlight a

1:49:241:49:31

provision that, in the event of the

death of a patient who was subject

1:49:311:49:34

to the use of force, the government

will appoint an independent

1:49:341:49:38

investigator, who will produce a

report on the incident in a timely

1:49:381:49:42

fashion. Families who undergo such a

tragic loss will, because of this

1:49:421:49:47

Bill, have the official help they

need to get the truth about what

1:49:471:49:50

happened to their loved one. These

are essential changes, which I hope

1:49:501:49:57

will insure that in the future, no

family will have to fight as hard as

1:49:571:50:01

the Lewis family did to get the

truth that they deserved. In

1:50:011:50:07

conclusion, as many as one in four

of us will experience mental

1:50:071:50:11

ill-health at some point in our

lives. This is an issue that is

1:50:111:50:17

simply too profound for us not to

always ask ourselves as legislators

1:50:171:50:22

in this place, what more can we do

to prevent injustice or coding? What

1:50:221:50:27

barriers must this house help break

down? And that is why, once again, I

1:50:271:50:35

commend the honourable member for

Croydon North for his long-standing

1:50:351:50:39

efforts, on behalf of both the Lewis

family and more broadly, the many

1:50:391:50:45

people across the country who suffer

from mental ill-health. The

1:50:451:50:49

provisions of this Bill will give

families and the public the

1:50:491:50:52

transparency we need to make sure

that force is used only where

1:50:521:50:55

necessary. And it is part of the

journey that this nation is on to

1:50:551:51:04

ensure that people with mental

ill-health are viewed no differently

1:51:041:51:08

than those with physical ill-health.

I commend the government for backing

1:51:081:51:12

this important piece of legislation

and I have been delighted to speak

1:51:121:51:16

in support of this Bill today.

May I

add my congratulations to those of

1:51:161:51:21

all my other colleagues, to the

honourable member for Croydon North

1:51:211:51:25

for bringing forward this Bill. I

warmly supported and I applaud his

1:51:251:51:33

willingness to work with people

across the house to make sure this

1:51:331:51:39

Bill meets all the requirements

needed. I will share a story about

1:51:391:51:46

one of my own constituents. Also saw

that the Bill works properly for

1:51:461:51:50

those involved in mental health care

in our country, and who, like our

1:51:501:51:56

police, will occasionally have cause

to have to restrain those who are

1:51:561:52:01

mentally ill. They work in very

challenging circumstances, and it's

1:52:011:52:05

important that this Bill fully

reflect the challenging

1:52:051:52:08

circumstances in which they do

operate, and is workable advert of

1:52:081:52:12

them, as much as being fair and

transparent for those who are on the

1:52:121:52:15

receiving end of it. Three areas

that I would like to talk about. The

1:52:151:52:20

first of which is to share with the

how is the story of my constituent

1:52:201:52:27

James Herbert, who died whilst in

police custody in 2010. He was

1:52:271:52:33

mentally ill and had been restrained

shortly before his death. Then how

1:52:331:52:39

this bill in many ways might have

helped in that situation and how in

1:52:391:52:43

so many ways, it will certainly help

to make sure that those sort of

1:52:431:52:47

events don't happen again. And

thirdly, what additional training we

1:52:471:52:53

might offer, not only to our police,

but to those who work in mental

1:52:531:52:58

health, to make sure there are safer

techniques for restraint, yes, but

1:52:581:53:03

also a greater understanding of how

we did escalate those circumstances

1:53:031:53:07

of that restraint might not be

necessary. James Herbert was known

1:53:071:53:14

to the Avon and Somerset police,

especially those serving in and

1:53:141:53:20

around Wells, as are suffering from

mental ill-health. Before he died,

1:53:201:53:25

there were a number of occasions

with the police had cause to observe

1:53:251:53:28

his behaviour. In the evening, he

was detained by the police and in

1:53:281:53:33

the process of that detention, he

was restrained. He was then put into

1:53:331:53:39

a police van and oven for 45 minutes

to eat custody suite on a hot June

1:53:391:53:45

day, where he was stripped naked and

put into a police cell. He died

1:53:451:53:49

later that night of cardiac arrest.

The IPCC have looked into his death

1:53:491:53:55

in full, as one would imagine, in

the seven years since. Their report

1:53:551:54:03

shows six mix chances and is rightly

critical of what happened that

1:54:031:54:06

night. It's important to note that

the police officers individually

1:54:061:54:11

involved, one of them is still a

constituent, and another, very

1:54:111:54:17

sadly, took his own life a year or

two ago, that they have not been

1:54:171:54:22

held personally responsible for what

happened, the feelings that when

1:54:221:54:28

identified were systemic,

institutionalised feelings, the

1:54:281:54:30

misunderstanding of mental

ill-health, in the wee those

1:54:301:54:33

processes were handled. I think

therefore, there is a great thing in

1:54:331:54:38

this bill, in that it brings forward

a very important aspect of dealing

1:54:381:54:44

with those with mental ill-health,

that sometimes, restraint is

1:54:441:54:48

unavoidably necessary, and how that

is done can have very profound

1:54:481:54:56

impact for the honourable

gentleman's constituent and for

1:54:561:54:58

mine. The Bill will help,

undoubtedly it will help. Staff not

1:54:581:55:06

deliberately restraining people in a

way that constrains an era where

1:55:061:55:08

it's clearly a very important and

necessary provision. So too is to

1:55:081:55:16

say that to restrict the

intervention with a retraining

1:55:161:55:21

technique that would cause pain, and

similarly, that people should always

1:55:211:55:28

seek to use the least restrictive

method of retaining possible. Both

1:55:281:55:35

of those are very necessarily de

escalate to the measures, that in

1:55:351:55:39

themselves, could help, maybe not

quite to calm the person being

1:55:391:55:46

detained, but at least not aggravate

them further, which is so often the

1:55:461:55:49

case. The more and more I have

spoken to police officers about

1:55:491:55:54

James Herbert's case, the more they

tell me that their own concern to

1:55:541:55:58

get their job done and to retain the

person, means that they just find

1:55:581:56:05

themselves naturally going up

through the levels of force and

1:56:051:56:10

through the sort of application of

their physical power, in order to

1:56:101:56:15

achieve the retention that they had

sought out to achieve. The fact that

1:56:151:56:19

those sides are rubbing off each

other in getting more aggravated,

1:56:191:56:23

the use of force becoming greater,

they reflect afterwards that if they

1:56:231:56:28

had approached the situation

differently in the first place... I

1:56:281:56:31

give way.

1:56:311:56:40

Whilst I don't know DS Mrs T of the

constituent who died in custody that

1:56:401:56:44

he speaks of, would he agree with me

that the concerns of mental health,

1:56:441:56:49

particularly when the person

involved can be physically robust,

1:56:491:56:54

can be very intimidating for the

police and medical people involved,

1:56:541:56:58

they need our support as well as the

measures in this bill, in ensuring

1:56:581:57:04

there is safety both for them and

the people they are caring for?

So

1:57:041:57:09

my honourable friend, as ever, makes

an excellent point. These are highly

1:57:091:57:15

challenging confrontational

situations. James Herbert was white,

1:57:151:57:19

but was a big guy. And you can

imagine that as his anger and

1:57:191:57:27

emotion is built, so too did the

efforts of those police officers,

1:57:271:57:31

who were trying for his own safety

to restrain him. My honourable

1:57:311:57:36

friend is absolutely right in

observing that sometimes there are

1:57:361:57:40

people who are physically very

intimidating, who require restraint.

1:57:401:57:44

And if you are the police officer or

the mental health worker involved in

1:57:441:57:49

that restraint, there is a sort of

fear on their part, for their own

1:57:491:57:54

physical safety, that may lead them

to use overly aggressive techniques,

1:57:541:57:59

and instead of focusing on

de-escalation are focused on self

1:57:591:58:02

preservation. There is a great

confidence required both in the

1:58:021:58:07

techniques that are taught for

restraint, but also in confidence

1:58:071:58:11

and understanding in how to deal

with those who have acute mental

1:58:111:58:15

health challenges, that is

absolutely necessary, so that

1:58:151:58:19

people, instead of fearing the

physical confrontation they find

1:58:191:58:23

themselves in, or able to apply the

right skills in the right way to

1:58:231:58:27

bring about the right outcome. I

agree very much with some of the

1:58:271:58:32

other provisions that are in the

bill. Seclusion should be an

1:58:321:58:36

absolute last resort. It is in

itself a very alienating and

1:58:361:58:41

escalator in measure. So too is the

immediate and confident and

1:58:411:58:51

sympathetic engagement of other

people involved in the care of the

1:58:511:58:55

mental health patient. The police,

in the case of James Herbert, phoned

1:58:551:59:01

his mother when they were in the

process of detaining him. They

1:59:011:59:05

phoned her to talk to her about

something very different, rather

1:59:051:59:10

than asking her about his condition

and how, what things she might be

1:59:101:59:15

able to share with them, in order to

be able to manage him much more

1:59:151:59:20

appropriately in that situation. And

the other thing that I agree with

1:59:201:59:25

passionately, having seen the

profound impact that James Herbert's

1:59:251:59:30

case has had, not only on his own

family and friends very obviously,

1:59:301:59:33

but on the careers and lives of

those involved in his detention and

1:59:331:59:42

sadly his death, is that body

cameras would have made an enormous

1:59:421:59:46

difference in this case. I will

gladly give way.

Does my honourable

1:59:461:59:52

friend, like me, welcome body worn

cameras, however, we should have a

1:59:521:59:58

facility where an emergency, when

someone is subjected to immediate

1:59:582:00:06

harm and the absence of a body warm

camera should not prevent somebody

2:00:062:00:12

coming in to address the situation.

I very much accept that there will

2:00:122:00:20

be situations that are immediate and

require an immediate intervention.

2:00:202:00:25

As a former soldier who was very

used to having to work on immediate

2:00:252:00:30

notice, to move at times, I would

suggest that the solution to that is

2:00:302:00:34

there must always be somebody in a

custody suite or on a mental health

2:00:342:00:39

ward who was an immediate notice to

move, he was wearing the right kit,

2:00:392:00:43

and it should be a simple drill for

those who are managing the

2:00:432:00:46

facilities that that should be

required. It is not that everybody

2:00:462:00:50

needs to be sat around at all times

with their stab vests and their

2:00:502:01:02

camera worn, but you would think if

you are in a circumstance where

2:01:022:01:05

somebody, if you are in a custody

suite, that one person in that

2:01:052:01:08

custody suite should be required to

be wearing the appropriate kit at

2:01:082:01:11

all times. Those cameras are a great

addition to what the police officers

2:01:112:01:14

wear. They are themselves a

de-escalate three measure. I have

2:01:142:01:19

been told that the simple act of

turning them on and people seeing,

2:01:192:01:24

this is away from today's issue of

those suffering from mental health

2:01:242:01:29

issues, the act of switching them on

and people on the high street who

2:01:292:01:32

have had a few too many drinks,

seeing themselves on the screen and

2:01:322:01:36

knowing their behaviour is being

recorded, that things start to calm

2:01:362:01:40

down and responsibility returns. I

will gladly give way.

2:01:402:01:45

I'm grateful for him raising this

very important point and I'm

2:01:452:01:48

grateful for the point made opposite

but he will be interested to know

2:01:482:01:51

there is a weight of academic

evidence now published, that shows

2:01:512:01:55

the mere presence of body cameras

warned by police in the

2:01:552:02:00

circumstances reduces the likelihood

of force being used by nearly 50%

2:02:002:02:04

and that alone is reason enough to

require police to wear body cameras.

2:02:042:02:12

The honourable gentleman that

slickly right. It is great on days

2:02:122:02:16

like this when the House are in

agreement with each other. -- the

2:02:162:02:20

honourable gentleman is absolutely

right. The cameras give those who

2:02:202:02:25

want to complain about what they see

as unfair treatment, they give a

2:02:252:02:30

transparency but so too do they give

a really and protection. As

2:02:302:02:35

important as the stab vest is the

protection that is offered by these

2:02:352:02:39

cameras which can reassure police

officers that they will have a video

2:02:392:02:43

record of what they did.

I'm grateful to my honourable friend

2:02:432:02:48

for giving way. On the subject of

body worn cameras I accept points

2:02:482:02:52

from both sides of the House. The

bill as it is drafted makes it clear

2:02:522:02:57

the officer has to turn the device

on as soon as practically possible

2:02:572:03:00

from the point when they are called.

Do you think it should be that that

2:03:002:03:05

is the point when they attend the

mental health unit and not the point

2:03:052:03:09

where they take the call itself. Is

that too onerous for the officers? I

2:03:092:03:14

just make the point.

Having had the

discussion with local police

2:03:142:03:19

constables and the police commander,

I do think that police officers have

2:03:192:03:24

an instinct for when they are going

into a certain type of situation.

2:03:242:03:29

And certainly in a custody suite,

one would imagine that if you were

2:03:292:03:35

on the custody desk and you heard

that something was happening that

2:03:352:03:39

might require your intervention, you

would obviously, as you were going

2:03:392:03:43

down to the cell or wherever it was

happening, flicked on the camera as

2:03:432:03:47

a matter of drill, assuming of

course that what we were just

2:03:472:03:51

discussing, that it should be a

standard practice, that somebody in

2:03:512:03:56

those circumstances is always fully

kitted out. I will gladly give way.

2:03:562:04:02

In terms of the bill, the

requirement is when they are

2:04:022:04:06

attending a mental health unit, my

understanding is that the unit has

2:04:062:04:09

an issue and they have called the

police to attend them. Many custody

2:04:092:04:15

suites do have cameras operating.

The real solution to this is

2:04:152:04:20

response officers, those who are

deployed ready to attend 999 calls

2:04:202:04:24

should have body worn cameras. That

helps not just in this instance but

2:04:242:04:28

in many other circumstances as well.

My honourable friend was right.

2:04:282:04:33

Whenever going out to an

2:04:332:04:45

actual call-out, when attending a

mental health unit, just as

2:04:462:04:48

attending any other event in the

community, the police officer will

2:04:482:04:50

have deployed in their full kit, in

their patrol car and they would

2:04:502:04:53

already have been wearing it and

would have switched on their camera

2:04:532:04:56

as they were entering the situation

if they thought it was necessary. I

2:04:562:04:59

would think much more likely, as

would have been the case perhaps

2:04:592:05:02

with James Herbert, that if people

were called into a situation when

2:05:022:05:05

they were not out on the street and

they might have just been nearby and

2:05:052:05:10

lending a hand, especially if the

cameras that are fixed cameras

2:05:102:05:14

within the building or skewered by

those who are doing the detention,

2:05:142:05:21

actually, I seal real merit in them

being used in those situations as

2:05:212:05:24

well. This is not just about how to

make sure that those very acute

2:05:242:05:32

immediate interventions are handled

properly. This is also about what

2:05:322:05:36

additional training might be offered

to our police and mental health

2:05:362:05:41

workers, to make sure these

situations do not arise in the first

2:05:412:05:46

place. The key to that I think, and

this goes without saying for mental

2:05:462:05:52

health workers, who by vocation

understand this stuff, the police

2:05:522:05:56

are much less confidence I think in

dealing with people with mental

2:05:562:06:01

health issues than they should be.

And training for our police force to

2:06:012:06:05

be able to spot those signs, so that

they can intervene appropriately,

2:06:052:06:11

with concern and with care, would be

very helpful and would avoid, I

2:06:112:06:17

suspect, a very large number of the

instances that we are debating

2:06:172:06:20

today. There are techniques for

reassuring, there are techniques for

2:06:202:06:27

the escalating, there are techniques

for managing the anxiety which often

2:06:272:06:36

manifests itself an part of those

with mental illness and I think a

2:06:362:06:40

gripping police with those skills

would be very welcome indeed.

A

2:06:402:06:46

number of years ago in a role on the

London assembly, I visited the young

2:06:462:06:52

offenders institution in Feltham,

and to the very point he makes, I

2:06:522:06:55

can't help but think there are a

number of young men in Feltham who

2:06:552:07:00

had mental health problems, but

whose interaction with the police

2:07:002:07:02

and with authority through mental

health episodes went to a stage

2:07:022:07:08

where they became violent, and

ultimately they found themselves

2:07:082:07:11

incarcerated, at least in part,

because perhaps that lack of

2:07:112:07:20

understanding and lack of training

on behalf of the police force. It is

2:07:202:07:24

not a moral criticism, it is at

observation which could help the

2:07:242:07:30

police and also the young men who

found themselves incarcerated in

2:07:302:07:33

perhaps what was not the most

appropriate institution.

I agree. It

2:07:332:07:39

is interesting to reflect on some of

the conversations I have had with

2:07:392:07:43

the PCSOs my constituency, who by

their nature will understand or no

2:07:432:07:48

more intimately the community they

serve, and very often the PCSOs have

2:07:482:07:53

an insight into the mental health of

some of the people they routinely

2:07:532:07:58

see around town, who are on the

edges of anti-social behaviour or

2:07:582:08:02

even breaking the law, and the PCSOs

will very often be able to deal with

2:08:022:08:08

that person in a very different way,

because they have that understanding

2:08:082:08:12

of who they are dealing with. In any

case, the sort of job description of

2:08:122:08:18

the PCSO is such that they naturally

seek to de-escalate and deter rather

2:08:182:08:24

than enforce the law. I think it is

a very interesting observation to

2:08:242:08:29

have made, and certainly something I

agree with, that it is possible to

2:08:292:08:34

avoid these circumstances happening

as often as they do. I will gladly

2:08:342:08:38

give way to the honourable lady from

Bath.

I thank the honourable member

2:08:382:08:43

for giving way. He has pointed out

the importance of PCSOs, but many

2:08:432:08:49

police officers and >> LIEM:

authorities now have to cut those

2:08:492:08:55

services and wouldn't the honourable

member agree that it is very

2:08:552:08:58

regrettable that police services are

cut and the very important services

2:08:582:09:02

of our PCSOs are being taken away

from our community?

My near

2:09:022:09:08

neighbour and with whom we share

probably the most beautiful diocese

2:09:082:09:17

in the country makes an interesting

point, one perhaps that she and I

2:09:172:09:22

might jointly take up with the

Police and Crime Commissioner for

2:09:222:09:25

Avon and Somerset police. I think

the decisions on how PCSOs are

2:09:252:09:33

allocated are hers, and it is not my

experience in my constituency that

2:09:332:09:37

PCSO numbers have been cut, in fact,

I have been very impressed by the

2:09:372:09:42

services we have seen from the PCSOs

in Somerset, during my time as the

2:09:422:09:47

MP for the wells constituency. This

bill is not a bill of exclusively

2:09:472:09:55

about police. This is about those

with mental health problems.

I thank

2:09:552:10:01

my honourable friend for giving way.

It is really good that he is

2:10:012:10:06

highlighting the point about the

PCSOs, but can I say in Kent we will

2:10:062:10:11

be increasing the number of PCSOs

and police in our community, because

2:10:112:10:16

we have recognised that they play a

key role in that transition between

2:10:162:10:21

meeting people with mental health

issues on the streets, and being

2:10:212:10:24

able to direct them to the right

care from a very local level, rather

2:10:242:10:28

than having to get police officers

directly involved that the first

2:10:282:10:33

point. Does my honourable friend

agree with me that that is a good

2:10:332:10:36

thing and we are increasing numbers

in some places?

I do very much

2:10:362:10:41

agree. I have no first-hand

experience of policing in Kent, she

2:10:412:10:47

will be pleased to know, but

certainly I agree that PCSOs are

2:10:472:10:51

very important and I don't see them

in anyway as a poor substitute for

2:10:512:10:56

actual police officers. I think the

way they do their business is

2:10:562:11:01

excellent. I am fortunate to have

some excellent PCSOs serving the

2:11:012:11:06

towns and villages in my

constituency and I think they make a

2:11:062:11:11

big difference in intervening the

way that they do and making sure

2:11:112:11:14

that crime levels stay as low as

they are. We have spoken a lot about

2:11:142:11:21

the police, inevitably so in my case

because the experience I have had

2:11:212:11:25

has been through a death in custody

and I wanted to share that with the

2:11:252:11:29

House. But this is really about a

wider way in which we care for those

2:11:292:11:36

with mental health conditions.

2:11:362:11:43

Mental health is something I am

passionate about and something I

2:11:432:11:46

learned a great deal about whole

serving in both Iraq and

2:11:462:11:50

Afghanistan. Before doing so, I was

one of the club that said that

2:11:502:11:54

people should just pull themselves

together. The reality is that when

2:11:542:11:58

you see people who are absolute

heroes, strong, strong people, who

2:11:582:12:03

have served in the army for 20

years, and you see their head break,

2:12:032:12:08

you stop making the distinction

between someone having their legs

2:12:082:12:13

blown off and the head break,

because they have had a trauma so

2:12:132:12:22

profound that it has done something

to them over which they have no more

2:12:222:12:25

control than the person who has lost

a limb. That has led me to look very

2:12:252:12:28

keenly at what mental health

provision looks like within my own

2:12:282:12:31

community, because I had quite an

epiphany in realising just how

2:12:312:12:36

important mental health care is. The

reality is that today, we're talking

2:12:362:12:40

about how to deal with people in the

most acute moments of crisis, and

2:12:402:12:45

that is a very necessary discussion,

but it mustn't distract from the

2:12:452:12:49

very urgent need, to talk about how

to stop them from getting to crisis

2:12:492:12:55

in the first place. Somerset's

mental health provision is really

2:12:552:13:02

quite hollow. We have a more than

adequate provision of acute mental

2:13:022:13:06

health beds and we have a reasonable

provision of community nursing. What

2:13:062:13:10

we don't have is the stuff in

between, the crisis houses, the step

2:13:102:13:15

up, step down facilities, that can

help people get a bit of space, to

2:13:152:13:21

avoid, to perhaps see off the

imminent danger of the critical

2:13:212:13:26

episode, and preventing them there

for from having to go to an acute

2:13:262:13:30

facility, where perhaps things might

escalate even further, or the

2:13:302:13:34

horrible situations we've been

talking about this morning might

2:13:342:13:37

arise. We must also look at how we

do much more upstream prevention,

2:13:372:13:43

involving mental health charities,

in particular, because their role is

2:13:432:13:47

enormously important. Heads Up in

Wales, of which I am a page on, and

2:13:472:13:55

another founded on a real tragedy,

they do it amazing work in our

2:13:552:14:02

communities, voluntarily,

charitably, but they do something

2:14:022:14:04

that should be a really important

part of a broad, deep network of

2:14:042:14:11

mental health provision, that helps

manage people through mental illness

2:14:112:14:13

at the appropriate level, and avoids

people slipping into crisis as much

2:14:132:14:20

as is possible. So too must we push

it even harder to break the taboos

2:14:202:14:26

around mental health in our

communities, because of there

2:14:262:14:29

wearing a greater acceptance of

mental health, if people were more

2:14:292:14:32

willing to be open and talk about it

and support people with mental

2:14:322:14:36

health illnesses, you could see that

fewer people would find themselves

2:14:362:14:39

in positions of crisis because they

had become isolated, the

2:14:392:14:43

vulnerability had become such an

issue that they made that big cry

2:14:432:14:47

for help or their illness escalated

to such a point. Parity of esteem is

2:14:472:14:51

not just about money, although in

this place, the debate often focuses

2:14:512:14:56

on that. Parity of esteem is about

attitudes and acceptance as well. We

2:14:562:15:03

need the mental health system that

means that people living with Milton

2:15:032:15:09

health conditions conducive with

dignity, without them being

2:15:092:15:12

unnecessarily aggravated, because

they have unreasonable waiting times

2:15:122:15:16

were mental health care, that they

can be supported by an understanding

2:15:162:15:21

and supportive community. The last

point that I want to make, because

2:15:212:15:24

I've taken up more than enough of

your time, is that mental health

2:15:242:15:30

workers do an amazing thing and so,

too, do the police that have to work

2:15:302:15:35

with those who are suffering from

mental illness. And nothing we

2:15:352:15:39

discussed today should be seen as a

criticism of what they do, and they

2:15:392:15:44

should understand that we understand

fully the extraordinarily

2:15:442:15:48

challenging circumstances in which

they work, day in day out. I

2:15:482:15:54

finished I simply thanking them for

the extraordinarily hard work that

2:15:542:15:57

they do.

Like other honourable

members, may start by paying tribute

2:15:572:16:04

to the work of the honourable member

for North in bringing forward this

2:16:042:16:10

Bill. As someone who was lucky

enough to get drawn in Private

2:16:102:16:15

members Bill ballot last year, I

know that plays a part, but more

2:16:152:16:20

importantly, so does passion, and he

has shown that in talking very

2:16:202:16:24

movingly today to the Lies about his

constituent of what has motivated

2:16:242:16:29

him to take this forward today, and

I think his constituents rightly

2:16:292:16:33

will be very proud of the work he's

doing on this very important piece

2:16:332:16:36

of legislation. I welcome and

support this Bill. I know from my

2:16:362:16:43

casework and more generally that it

is something that will be welcomed

2:16:432:16:47

in my constituency and more broadly,

across the country. I think it

2:16:472:16:51

reflects very well on the house

today and our proceedings, both the

2:16:512:16:55

torn in which this debate has been

conducted, but also that on an issue

2:16:552:17:00

as important as this, honourable

members who wish to speak are having

2:17:002:17:05

the British team to do so and I

think their constituents would

2:17:052:17:09

expect no less and would expect all

of us who wish to speak to have the

2:17:092:17:13

opportunity to put on a record our

views about this important issue. As

2:17:132:17:19

the shadow minister made clear, this

is about transparency, it's about

2:17:192:17:25

accountability, it's about changing

attitudes and it's also about risk.

2:17:252:17:31

Most importantly, this Bill's

focuses on making the processes and

2:17:312:17:36

treatment of those detained in

mental health units more people -

2:17:362:17:40

centric, it is focused on them. As

honourable members have set out, and

2:17:402:17:47

I think it was my honourable friend,

the member for Richmond, who made

2:17:472:17:53

clear, the reality is that the

circumstances which can lead to

2:17:532:17:56

someone being detained in a mental

health unit could happen to anyone.

2:17:562:17:59

Mental ill-health can happen to

anyone and I think it's important we

2:17:592:18:03

remember that. We are talking about

vulnerable people or people that the

2:18:032:18:08

most vulnerable in these situations,

and as my honourable friend, the

2:18:082:18:13

member for Hartley made clear, we

are very good as a society about

2:18:132:18:17

understanding physical ill-health,

because we can see it, but we are

2:18:172:18:21

less good at understanding mental

ill-health, because it is more

2:18:212:18:24

intangible and much harder to see. I

think it was the honourable member

2:18:242:18:30

for Croydon North who said, this is

about compassion, not cruelty. At

2:18:302:18:35

times, given the natures of the

circumstances, restraint may be

2:18:352:18:39

needed at a moment of crisis, but it

must be applied in the right way, it

2:18:392:18:44

must be minimal and we must always

focus on dealing with such incidents

2:18:442:18:49

in the right way and doing what we

can to assist people in their

2:18:492:18:55

recovery. It is important that we

also highlight as honourable members

2:18:552:18:58

have done, and I think most

recently, my honourable friend, the

2:18:582:19:02

member for Wells, the the debt of

gratitude we alter all those working

2:19:022:19:10

in emergency services and those in a

mental health setting for the work

2:19:102:19:13

they do and be incredibly difficult

job they do with an amazing degree

2:19:132:19:18

of professionalism, compassion and

care. In that context, I very much

2:19:182:19:22

welcome clause five of this bill,

with its emphasis on the provision

2:19:222:19:27

of training. This is not just about

protecting and supporting those who

2:19:272:19:31

are detained and mental health

units, it's also about protecting

2:19:312:19:34

and supporting those who may have to

intervene in applying restraint. And

2:19:342:19:40

I think it was the honourable member

for Stroud who made the point

2:19:402:19:45

earlier in this debate, about the

need for training. Not only at the

2:19:452:19:50

induction stage for those workers,

but also for that to be refreshed

2:19:502:19:54

throughout their careers, and I

think that's an important point.

2:19:542:19:59

This Bill is about reducing the use

of restraint where possible, but

2:19:592:20:05

it's also about risk. Too often in

our society, be it the private

2:20:052:20:10

sector or public sector, that is an

understandable desire to eliminate

2:20:102:20:14

risk. The reality is that simply

cannot be done. But we must seek to

2:20:142:20:18

do instead is to understand and

mitigate risk and ensure that the

2:20:182:20:25

understanding drives the right

behaviours. The data that this Bill

2:20:252:20:30

will provide, the transparency

brings, the understanding of how

2:20:302:20:33

restraint operates in these

settings, all feed into that better

2:20:332:20:38

understanding of risk, which will

hopefully improve the way in which

2:20:382:20:41

we treat those detained in mental

health units. And of course, it is

2:20:412:20:49

about justice. In the hopefully few,

but nonetheless tragic

2:20:492:20:57

circumstances, where someone does

die, it is important that the

2:20:572:21:00

evidence is there, both to ensure

justice for that person, but also to

2:21:002:21:05

ensure we learn the lessons from

that incident. And finally,

2:21:052:21:11

conscious of my words about it being

important that all those who wish to

2:21:112:21:14

speak should have the opportunity,

because our constituents would

2:21:142:21:19

expect that, I turned to the final

point about changing attitudes.

2:21:192:21:24

Attitudes are changing in respect of

mental health. Every time in this

2:21:242:21:39

chamber we talk about mental health,

we help change those attitudes, we

2:21:402:21:43

help reduce any stigma attached to

mental health, and it's absolutely

2:21:432:21:45

right we continue to do so. Those

attitudes are changing in our

2:21:452:21:47

country as a whole, but there is

still a long way to go. We are on a

2:21:472:21:51

journey. This Bill is a hugely

important step on that journey and I

2:21:512:21:53

very much welcome it. Another hugely

important step will be the review of

2:21:532:21:56

the Mental Health Act, which while

maybe of its time, is certainly not

2:21:562:22:02

fit for these times, and it is right

that in that context of the debate

2:22:022:22:06

and the review around it, we look at

not only what we are discussing

2:22:062:22:11

today, but we seek to create a

mental health care system is fit the

2:22:112:22:16

21st century, of which we can all be

proud. It is a pleasure to support

2:22:162:22:20

this Bill today.

May I also add my

congratulations to the member for

2:22:202:22:27

Croydon North, who is not currently

in his plays were bringing forward

2:22:272:22:32

this Bill, and for the very emotive

and in many respects heartbreaking

2:22:322:22:36

story that he shared with the house

today. This Bill is an important

2:22:362:22:42

part of the wider issue. We do need

to improve the way that the approach

2:22:422:22:46

mental health in this country. That

is without question a stigma, is

2:22:462:22:51

taboo, and I know a number of

honourable members in this house

2:22:512:22:55

today on both sides, who have played

huge roles in tackling that. One of

2:22:552:23:00

my passions in this house is baby

laws, which has a similar taboo and

2:23:002:23:05

stigma, and we don't talk about it,

is which has led to many people

2:23:052:23:10

keeping quiet, but it is talking

about these issues, raising them as

2:23:102:23:14

much as possible and allowing people

to feel open enough to talk about

2:23:142:23:19

them, that lets us start to tackle

those stigmas and taboo zone that is

2:23:192:23:22

no great place to do that than the

floor of the House of Commons

2:23:222:23:25

chamber. The Mental Health Act has

remained unchanged since it was

2:23:252:23:31

first published in 1983. Many

consider it is no longer fit for

2:23:312:23:37

purpose. As a comparison, when the

legislation was introduced, the

2:23:372:23:42

diagnostic and statistical manual of

mental disorders, known as DSN,

2:23:422:23:53

existed in its third edition. Since

then, it has undergone multiple

2:23:532:23:59

editions. Our understanding has

changed, especially over the last

2:23:592:24:04

three and a half decades. Our

legislation has not that is not good

2:24:042:24:07

enough. This Bill is important step

in ensuring that people with mental

2:24:072:24:13

health conditions are treated

appropriately. But I do want to make

2:24:132:24:16

something clear night think it is

important, that there will be

2:24:162:24:22

circumstances where restraint is

required in mental health units. It

2:24:222:24:27

is sadly inevitable. Staff in these

units do have an incredibly

2:24:272:24:33

challenging job, but we would all

agree that it should be the last

2:24:332:24:36

resort, not the first resort. I

would briefly like to pay tribute to

2:24:362:24:44

Mind, who launched a campaign in

2011 to reduce the use of restraints

2:24:442:24:49

in health care settings. They have

made fantastic progress so far. In

2:24:492:24:55

2014, the Coalition Government

published guidance in this area,

2:24:552:24:58

following investigations into abuses

at the Winterbourne review hospital

2:24:582:25:04

and reports from Mind. It found that

restrictive interventions were not

2:25:042:25:08

being used as a last resort, so the

guidance made clear that the staff

2:25:082:25:12

must only use such actions if they

represent the least restriction

2:25:122:25:17

option to meet the immediate need.

It also rightly made clear that

2:25:172:25:23

staff must not deliberately restrict

people in a way that impacts on the

2:25:232:25:28

airway, breathing or circulation,

such as face down restraint on any

2:25:282:25:32

surface, not just on the floor. In

continuing the spirit of the

2:25:322:25:38

Coalition Government, I know my

honourable friend, who's currently

2:25:382:25:41

on her phone on the other side of

the chamber, his attention I still

2:25:412:25:45

haven't to attract, I would like to

pay tribute to the honourable member

2:25:452:25:52

for North Norfolk, for the work he

did as a government minister in this

2:25:522:25:56

place. I know this is an issue that

he deeply cares about, and I know

2:25:562:26:00

he's not in the chamber at the

moment, but I certainly want to put

2:26:002:26:06

on the records, the honourable

ladies still hasn't recognise the

2:26:062:26:10

point. Nevertheless, I think it's

important it was on the wreckage,

2:26:102:26:13

because he did a huge round of work

in this area. Later in 2015, the

2:26:132:26:20

Mental Health Act 1983 of guidance

was revised and Nice updated its

2:26:202:26:26

guidance on violence and aggression.

In both cases, emphasis was put on

2:26:262:26:30

prevention and the use of restraint

was advised against. What was

2:26:302:26:37

recognised in all of this is that

the solution is not blaming staff.

2:26:372:26:42

The solution is giving staff skills

and the confidence to deal with some

2:26:422:26:49

incredibly challenging situations.

In September, I visited their Lakes

2:26:492:26:54

mental health unit in Colchester, to

see first-hand what he mental health

2:26:542:26:58

unit is like. I had a brief meeting

initially with senior managers,

2:26:582:27:03

including Sally Morris, the chief

executive of Essex partnership NHS

2:27:032:27:09

trust.

2:27:092:27:20

We discussed many issues. Restraint

was not one of the issues we

2:27:202:27:25

discussed. Following this debate and

this important bill brought forward

2:27:252:27:32

by the honourable member who is now

in his place, I will definitely be

2:27:322:27:35

asking questions about the use of

restraint in that unit. I support

2:27:352:27:40

what this bill is seeking to achieve

around training. In particular, as

2:27:402:27:45

set out in section five subsection

one. In many ways, it strikes me as

2:27:452:27:52

remarkable that front line staff

would not already be given these

2:27:522:27:56

programmes, but this is a good way

of ensuring that staff, particularly

2:27:562:28:01

new staff are aware of best practice

and guidance on the use of force. I

2:28:012:28:06

would suggest at committee stage

that they should look at whether it

2:28:062:28:10

should be wider than just induction,

so that existing members of staff

2:28:102:28:14

are also given this training. I

think it is incredibly important

2:28:142:28:18

that in any workplace environment

you are given refreshers to assure

2:28:182:28:23

that that training remains fresh and

front of mind. Another area of this

2:28:232:28:29

bill I want to touch on is the

mandating body cameras for any

2:28:292:28:33

police officer who attends a mental

health unit, and that has been

2:28:332:28:37

raised by a number of colleagues

already, but I want to focus one

2:28:372:28:41

particular area. I do think it is

important to mention from the

2:28:412:28:45

outset, that the use of body worn

cameras is ultimately a decision for

2:28:452:28:49

local Police and Crime Commissioner

's and different police forces are

2:28:492:28:53

at different stages in terms of that

process, some are just investing now

2:28:532:28:56

and others are looking at new

equipment because they have had it

2:28:562:29:00

for some time, and are ruined their

second phase of procurement for

2:29:002:29:05

these body worn cameras. But I would

also suggest that maybe section 13

2:29:052:29:09

subsection to a which did briefly

mention in any intervention to one

2:29:092:29:14

of my honourable friends, is perhaps

a little too eager when it expects

2:29:142:29:18

officers to turn on their actual

cameras. It states at the moment :

2:29:182:29:26

the piece of is ensure that his or

her body camera is recording from

2:29:262:29:32

the sooner is reasonably practical

from after the officer receives the

2:29:322:29:37

request to attend the mental health

unit.

2:29:372:29:39

Perhaps this is something we should

discuss a committee stage. I wonder

2:29:392:29:44

if there should be recording of them

attending the mental health unit,

2:29:442:29:48

rather than the point they get the

request to attend the unit.

2:29:482:29:54

I thank the honourable member for

giving way and he is making some

2:29:542:29:57

interesting points. Would he agree

with me that the point of body worn

2:29:572:30:00

cameras is that when an officer is

on duty, when they are used, the

2:30:002:30:05

presumption should be there is only

a circumstance where they are turned

2:30:052:30:09

off, the presumption is when they

are turned on. It is only if you are

2:30:092:30:13

dealing with are vulnerable witness

who is uncomfortable talking on

2:30:132:30:18

camera that they should be switched

off Esmat the honourable member

2:30:182:30:23

makes an important point.

I will

come back to that in a moment.

2:30:232:30:27

Different forces are at different

stages in the evolution of this kit.

2:30:272:30:32

They have different battery lives,

different download capabilities.

2:30:322:30:38

Some take several hours to download,

others can be done more quickly. It

2:30:382:30:43

depends where the police forces are

wrapped in terms of their payment

2:30:432:30:47

and how long they have had the

equipment for. I totally agree that

2:30:472:30:50

this equipment should be on and the

new formations of this equipment,

2:30:502:30:55

that is standard and should be

standard practice.

2:30:552:30:58

I thank my honourable friend for

that. He has mentioned precisely

2:30:582:31:03

what I was going to raise, the fact

that a battery life may have been

2:31:032:31:08

expired or there may have been a

software glitch with these cameras,

2:31:082:31:13

and maybe that clause does need

tweaking at committee stage, and I

2:31:132:31:18

wonder if the honourable gentleman,

the member for Croydon North will

2:31:182:31:22

look at that very carefully, if this

bill reaches the committee stage?

I

2:31:222:31:29

thank my honourable friend for that

intervention and she raises a very

2:31:292:31:32

good point. I think we are all

largely in agreement about the use

2:31:322:31:35

of body worn cameras. I think we'll

think they are an excellent piece of

2:31:352:31:40

evolution in policing, in terms of

protecting the public and indeed the

2:31:402:31:43

police officer. I hope this is a

point the honourable member can take

2:31:432:31:49

away at committee stage which I hope

we will get to, and actually work

2:31:492:31:51

with senior police officers who are

working on the ground who use this

2:31:512:31:55

equipment to work out how exactly

the legislation should be worded, to

2:31:552:31:59

ensure that we get it exactly right

on this point. I do want to mention

2:31:592:32:05

how, in passing, although I may

focus a little bit on it, is Essex

2:32:052:32:09

Police, and how it is working in

partnership with the NHS in a

2:32:092:32:15

countywide street triage programme,

in order to provide the best

2:32:152:32:18

possible care to people with mental

health issues. I think this is a

2:32:182:32:23

trailblazing idea and I think it is

working brilliantly. I will come on

2:32:232:32:27

to mention a few of the stats on it.

There are four street triage cars,

2:32:272:32:33

staffed by trained officers and

mental health professionals from the

2:32:332:32:38

south Essex NHS partnership trust,

and the North Essex University

2:32:382:32:43

foundation NHS Trust, and they are

available to Essex Police operating

2:32:432:32:47

seven days a week between 10am and

2am. There are four cars based in

2:32:472:32:54

Harlow, Colchester, Basildon and

Rochford, where officers and mental

2:32:542:32:58

health professionals attend

incidents across the county, if an

2:32:582:33:02

individual is thought to be in

mental health crisis, and in urgent

2:33:022:33:06

need of support or an intervention.

The person is then assessed by the

2:33:062:33:11

officers and the mental health

professional who then gets them the

2:33:112:33:15

assistance they need, if indeed it

is appropriate to do so. This

2:33:152:33:19

follows the success of what was a

four-month pilot which ran for three

2:33:192:33:22

nights a week. During this time, 269

individuals were assessed, of which

2:33:222:33:29

11 were required to be detained

under the Mental Health Act. Others

2:33:292:33:33

were referred to appropriate

services and given guidance from the

2:33:332:33:38

mental health services who were

present. This is an initiative of

2:33:382:33:42

the Police and Crime Commissioner.

This scheme has proved instrumental

2:33:422:33:47

in reducing the number of people who

have been detained by police under

2:33:472:33:52

section 136 of the Mental Health Act

unnecessarily across Essex. That has

2:33:522:33:58

cut it by nearly a quarter. It has

also ensured that those with that

2:33:582:34:03

acute vulnerability are given the

care and support that they need. In

2:34:032:34:10

summary, Madam Deputy Speaker, I

very much welcome this bill. It

2:34:102:34:14

insures that staff working in mental

health units are given training to

2:34:142:34:18

insure that they can give patients

the best possible level of care.

2:34:182:34:24

Training, I believe, having met

staff at the Lakes mental health

2:34:242:34:29

unit, that they want to receive.

While there are a couple of areas

2:34:292:34:33

that I think need tweaking and I

would be very happy to work with the

2:34:332:34:37

honourable member at committee

stage, there is nothing that I

2:34:372:34:42

believe should stop this bill

passing second reading and I will be

2:34:422:34:47

supporting the bill.

Helen Whately.

Thank you, Madam

2:34:472:34:53

Deputy Speaker. May I congratulate

the honourable member for Croydon

2:34:532:34:57

North for introducing this bill, and

I welcome the opportunity to speak

2:34:572:35:02

on this important subject, and I'm

pleased the Government is supporting

2:35:022:35:05

this bill. The more we speak about

mental health, privately, publicly

2:35:052:35:10

and especially here in Parliament,

the more we wear away the stigma

2:35:102:35:15

that surrounds it. As chair of the

all-party Parliamentary group for

2:35:152:35:20

mental health, I often speak to

service users, professionals and

2:35:202:35:26

campaigners from organisations like

Rethink mental illness, Mind and the

2:35:262:35:31

Royal College of psychiatry. They

tell me there has never been a

2:35:312:35:33

better time to be a mental health

campaigner. We have the five-year

2:35:332:35:38

forward view for mental health,

truly compensate and widely

2:35:382:35:42

supported strategy to improve mental

health care in this country. We have

2:35:422:35:47

a Prime Minister who is committed to

fighting the injustice of inadequate

2:35:472:35:51

treatment and we have a government

which is spending record amounts on

2:35:512:35:55

improving mental health care. I will

happily give way.

I thank the

2:35:552:36:00

honourable member kindly for giving

way. I notice she highlights the

2:36:002:36:05

commitment made by this government,

but that she shared the concern that

2:36:052:36:09

I have that commitments and money

are not reaching the front line and

2:36:092:36:13

there is a wealth of evidence which

shows that many cities across the

2:36:132:36:18

country are diverging funds intended

for mental health?

I thank the

2:36:182:36:24

honourable member for her

intervention and I acknowledge the

2:36:242:36:27

work she is doing in campaigning for

mental health. I have looked into

2:36:272:36:33

the question of finance is getting

to the front line which she raises.

2:36:332:36:36

The answer is that 85% of CCGs

across the country are spending at

2:36:362:36:42

the level they should be spending at

mental health, so the majority are

2:36:422:36:48

meeting their obligation of

increasing their spend on mental

2:36:482:36:50

health. Yes, there is a minority who

are not, and they are rightly being

2:36:502:36:55

looked at and what is going on there

and why are they diverting money

2:36:552:36:59

away from an health, but the

majority are doing so. The rate of

2:36:592:37:03

spending on mental health is going

up faster than the rate of the extra

2:37:032:37:06

money going to CCGs, so the rate of

money is going up faster than the

2:37:062:37:13

increase in spending which is the

right thing. It is all about

2:37:132:37:17

improving the status of mental

health in our health care system

2:37:172:37:21

which I know is an ambition she

shares, as do I. All of us here have

2:37:212:37:26

been moved by the awful story of

Shelley Lewis who died after being

2:37:262:37:31

restrained facedown and we know, and

as we have heard today, this was not

2:37:312:37:37

an isolated case. And these awful

cases are happening despite the fact

2:37:372:37:45

that there are very strong

guidelines, even at the moment on

2:37:452:37:48

the use of restraint. The Mental

Health Act code of practice straight

2:37:482:37:53

restrictive practice should only be

used when there is a possibility

2:37:532:37:56

real harm to the person or other

people. There are guidelines that

2:37:562:38:02

staff should be trained to avoid

restrictive practices on young

2:38:022:38:07

people and despite that, instances

of restraint have been going up.

2:38:072:38:12

Despite that, 17% of girls and 13%

of boys who were admitted to CAMS.

2:38:122:38:27

Despite that, restraint is going up,

restraint should be a last resort,

2:38:272:38:33

restraint does enormous damage at

times, both physical and

2:38:332:38:38

psychological. And the implications

are for those applying the

2:38:382:38:44

restraint. This bill is badly needed

and I welcome it. This... I will

2:38:442:38:56

give way.

Does she like I shared

concern about not only the number of

2:38:562:39:05

times people are being restrained

but also the number of times an

2:39:052:39:08

individual is being restrained. We

heard across the summer the case of

2:39:082:39:13

girl X. Sir James Mumby wrote about

this girl who was restrained 117

2:39:132:39:22

times because there was not an

adequate place which was fit for her

2:39:222:39:26

care? Does she share the concern

that this is horrifying in 2017?

It

2:39:262:39:32

is a shocking example that she

raises so yes, it needs to be looked

2:39:322:39:38

at especially when individuals are

having to be restrained multiple

2:39:382:39:41

times. I should provide some balance

and say that I recognise there are

2:39:412:39:48

times when restraint is necessary.

And that has been made quite clear

2:39:482:39:53

by the people I have talked to, in

providing mental health care. But

2:39:532:39:57

they critical of thing that staff

who are carrying out restraint are

2:39:572:40:02

properly trained in doing so, as

section five of this ill addresses.

2:40:022:40:09

And being properly trained while

doing so, making sure that patients

2:40:092:40:17

do not suffer trauma and injury and

also to make sure staff themselves

2:40:172:40:20

don't face issues when something has

gone wrong which is a bad thing when

2:40:202:40:28

staff are trying to provide mental

health care and it is a tough sector

2:40:282:40:32

to work in, very rewarding but also

very challenging work and I join

2:40:322:40:37

others in thanking and appreciating

the work that those in the mental

2:40:372:40:42

health workforce do. Appropriate

training and restraint is also very

2:40:422:40:46

important. At present, I have told

that no matter what their background

2:40:462:40:55

and experience, anyone can offer

their services as a restraint

2:40:552:40:59

trainer. This seems extremely

strange that there is not a standard

2:40:592:41:04

required of the trainers who train

people in restraint measures and

2:41:042:41:07

some sort of accreditation is surely

required to make sure the training

2:41:072:41:12

is of the standard that it should

be? I find that quite astounding.

2:41:122:41:16

That definitely needs to be looked

into. Also getting restraint right

2:41:162:41:21

and making sure the use of restraint

techniques follows medical evidence.

2:41:212:41:25

I want to put on record here, on the

one hand we have the mental health

2:41:252:41:32

code of practice which means they

should be no facedown restraint due

2:41:322:41:36

to restricted breathing, but the

Royal College of Psychiatrists says

2:41:362:41:40

the current evidence does not

support one type of restraint over

2:41:402:41:44

the other. This is clearly an

incredibly difficult area to talk

2:41:442:41:48

about, but overall what does need to

be done is to make sure that when

2:41:482:41:52

restraint is used, the least harmful

and least dangerous uses of

2:41:522:41:56

restraint should be used.

2:41:562:42:04

What is certainly true is that

overall, the use of restraint is too

2:42:042:42:08

high across the system. The level of

difference between units, means the

2:42:082:42:14

level of restraint is not always

necessary. A report picks up this

2:42:142:42:24

point, which says, we are concerned

about the great variation across the

2:42:242:42:29

country and how often staff

physically restrain patients whose

2:42:292:42:33

behaviour they find challenging.

This wide variation, even between

2:42:332:42:38

words, which admit the same patient

group. When similar patients are

2:42:382:42:43

being admitted, but different

treatment is happening in different

2:42:432:42:46

parts of the country, that indicates

that something is going wrong, and

2:42:462:42:50

those that carry out more restraint

should surely work out how they can

2:42:502:42:54

emulate those which managed to carry

out most restraint. The CTC also

2:42:542:43:00

noted that those wards with the law

restraint level have staff trained

2:43:002:43:05

in the specialist skills required to

anticipate and de-escalate

2:43:052:43:11

situations which might lead to self

harm. That indicates that training

2:43:112:43:14

is part of the key to reducing this

worrying radiation. Moving on to the

2:43:142:43:22

point that this Bill doesn't involve

extra monitoring, and awful, but as

2:43:222:43:26

a resistance to extra monitoring

amid concern about box ticking and

2:43:262:43:32

form filling and all sorts of

things. But actually, professionals

2:43:322:43:35

are supporting the extra monitoring

in this case. The Royal College of

2:43:352:43:40

psychiatrists are backing this spill

in the recognise and read need for

2:43:402:43:47

the right tractors is to reduce the

use of restraint in mental health

2:43:472:43:50

units. They have gone further and

signed a memorandum of understanding

2:43:502:43:55

on the use of restraint in mental

health and learning disability

2:43:552:44:00

settings. The agenda is already

moving on and this Bill is helping

2:44:002:44:04

focus minds on what can be done

before it becomes law, to increase

2:44:042:44:11

the use of restraint. As I mentioned

earlier, I want to reiterate, I do

2:44:112:44:15

think we need also to look at

special schools and the use of

2:44:152:44:20

restraint. There was a case of some

autistic children in my

2:44:202:44:24

constituency, who were restrained in

a really shocking way, and nobody

2:44:242:44:26

has ever got to the bottom of what

happened in that situation. With my

2:44:262:44:36

honourable friend, the member for

Berwick-upon-Tweed, who suggested we

2:44:362:44:40

should work together on taking some

action on this problem as well. As

2:44:402:44:45

members now, and those of us who are

actively campaigning on mental

2:44:452:44:49

health, there is a need for reform

of the Mental Health Act coming our

2:44:492:44:55

way, and that is very, very welcome

and much needed. For instance, to

2:44:552:45:02

tackle the rise in sectioning and to

bring mental health legislation up

2:45:022:45:07

to date. That is a piece of work

that might have looked into this

2:45:072:45:11

point about restraint, but it's a

very large piece of work and so is

2:45:112:45:16

absolutely right that in the

meantime, this Bill is coming for a

2:45:162:45:22

double take action quickly, I hope,

on improving the use of restraint in

2:45:222:45:28

these difficult circumstances. Once

again, I congratulate the honourable

2:45:282:45:33

member for bringing the Bill and I

look forward to supporting it.

I'm

2:45:332:45:42

very conscious that it can sometimes

be a blight on a political career,

2:45:422:45:47

to have someone from the other side

of the chamber lavish praise upon

2:45:472:45:51

you, so I apologise in advance to

the honourable gentleman, the member

2:45:512:45:56

of Croydon North, because what I'm

about to say could hang like a

2:45:562:46:01

political albatross around his neck

for some time. But I hope he

2:46:012:46:07

recognises that, even if that is the

gays, and I suspect it would be,

2:46:072:46:12

that the work he is doing in

bringing forward this Bill will more

2:46:122:46:16

than offset any detriment it might

have. Because I think and I suspect

2:46:162:46:21

that when this Bill makes its way

through the house and is enacted,

2:46:212:46:26

that people will look back at a

tipping point moment. I think that

2:46:262:46:32

is exemplified by the first few

names on the list of supporters, and

2:46:322:46:37

I think it shows great credit to him

as an individual and as a

2:46:372:46:42

parliamentarian, that he is able to

get support from all parties

2:46:422:46:49

representing England, from all sides

of the house in support of this

2:46:492:46:53

Bill. And also in the way the Bill

is drafted, clearly in such a way to

2:46:532:46:58

make it as easy as possible to gain

cross-party support and to give this

2:46:582:47:05

Build the best chance to be enacted.

And in a time globally when we see

2:47:052:47:11

ultra-partisan politics, where we

see things put forward specifically

2:47:112:47:15

to create division and to play games

using politics, it is refreshing to

2:47:152:47:20

see a Bill which is quite clearly

designed to improve and in many

2:47:202:47:26

instances, save lives, and I thank

him for that. There are a number of

2:47:262:47:37

points that I wish to make. In my

constituency or near my

2:47:372:47:46

constituency, I have a centre raced

in Chelmsford that serves my

2:47:462:47:51

constituents. I regularly have

meetings with the health trust, the

2:47:512:47:57

Essex partnership University

foundation NHS trust, and the

2:47:572:48:01

management thereof, and it is quite

clear that the management of that

2:48:012:48:06

mental health centre in Chelmsford

are passionate about protecting

2:48:062:48:10

their service users, there are

passionate about improving the

2:48:102:48:14

mental health of the people under

their responsibility. I have close

2:48:142:48:19

working relationships with the Essex

Constabulary, the police, who are

2:48:192:48:26

also as passionate about protecting

people. And before I make other

2:48:262:48:31

points, echoing the words of my

honourable and gallant friend, the

2:48:312:48:38

member for Wells, I want to echo the

flanks that he put on record to both

2:48:382:48:49

the medical professionals, the

police professionals and others, who

2:48:492:48:53

worked so very hard trying to

protect people who have either acute

2:48:532:48:58

or chronic mental-health episodes.

And I wouldn't want any of the

2:48:582:49:03

conversation about deaths and

restraint mental health units and by

2:49:032:49:08

police officers and others to be in

any way seen as an implicit

2:49:082:49:14

criticism of them. They do

incredibly important work, often in

2:49:142:49:19

the most difficult and challenging

circumstances.

I am happy to give

2:49:192:49:25

way. It's a question to my

honourable friend, he has close

2:49:252:49:33

links with the police and with

medical professionals. Do they use

2:49:332:49:39

the same approach to restraining

people? I would have thought the

2:49:392:49:46

police might be more vicious, not

vicious, but more hard than perhaps

2:49:462:49:53

nurses would be. But do they use the

same techniques are just apply

2:49:532:49:57

different sections of the

techniques?

The simple truth of the

2:49:572:50:05

matter is, in my experience, and I

only really have detailed expedience

2:50:052:50:09

of medical and policing practices in

London, from my time on the

2:50:092:50:15

Metropolitan police authority and

now as a rapid sensitive of

2:50:152:50:20

Braintree, the local mental health

trust. I can't talk about the

2:50:202:50:23

universality of this, but I think

without a shadow of a doubt, the

2:50:232:50:26

message I'm picking up is that the

is acute radiation across and within

2:50:262:50:31

constabularies and trusts, and I

think the really important part of

2:50:312:50:36

this, which was touched on by my

honourable friend, the member for

2:50:362:50:42

Faversham, but actually, one of the

most significant sections in this

2:50:422:50:47

Bill is the section two, which is on

accountability. I am one of those in

2:50:472:50:52

rough and grumpy old Tories, who

instinctively, at this point the

2:50:522:50:59

house is meant to join in a chorus

of, you are not that old. Now one

2:50:592:51:06

cried, you are not that grumpy. But

this section is incredibly

2:51:062:51:11

important. I am a rough and grumpy

old Tory and my instinct is to take

2:51:112:51:16

away as much red tape and

administrative burden is possible,

2:51:162:51:21

because as my honourable friend the

member for Faversham highlights,

2:51:212:51:25

this modest administrative burden is

actually welcomed by the profession.

2:51:252:51:30

There's an old saying in management

consultancy, if you want to change

2:51:302:51:38

something, measure it. And I think

it's very important that the

2:51:382:51:45

registration of the use of force,

whenever that is applied, is really

2:51:452:51:50

important. It will do two things, it

will cause that moment of reflection

2:51:502:51:57

before the use of force is applied.

Because of some now is that they are

2:51:572:52:02

going to have to justify that, it

will just cause that small moment of

2:52:022:52:06

pause. And if in that moment of

pause, the recognition happens at

2:52:062:52:12

the use of force is not appropriate,

and that is inevitably a good thing,

2:52:122:52:17

but perhaps more importantly, if the

decision is made that forces the

2:52:172:52:24

appropriate action, then what we

will have through the various

2:52:242:52:27

clauses around this will be a

register of all the times, and of

2:52:272:52:33

course I have completely referenced

the wrong section, I mean section

2:52:332:52:37

seven, apologies. People have is a

record of the times force has been

2:52:372:52:44

used, including the times when that

force does not then go on to injury

2:52:442:52:51

or in the most tragic cases, death.

And that enables us to get an

2:52:512:52:57

accurate understanding of how many

times use of force as unfortunately

2:52:572:53:01

to injury and fatality. And I think

that's very, very important, because

2:53:012:53:08

I think that will remind us of the

difficulty that many professionals

2:53:082:53:12

have in this case.

For the very

generous comments he made earlier.

2:53:122:53:21

Just to be clear, it's not my

intention that this Bill should

2:53:212:53:24

impose any additional administrative

burden at all. Institutions already

2:53:242:53:28

collect data on the use of force,

they just don't collect it in the

2:53:282:53:31

same week, so you can embed it. It

would standardise what goes on

2:53:312:53:36

rather than imposing a new burden,

that allows greater scrutiny of what

2:53:362:53:39

is happening.

That is a very fair

and balanced intervention. I was

2:53:392:53:47

going to go on, honestly, Imran

extensions, to say, looking through

2:53:472:53:51

the list of things, it is a list of

things, which if not already

2:53:512:53:57

collected, really should be

collected. If what we have through

2:53:572:54:03

this bill is a standardisation, so

that we can see the differentials

2:54:032:54:09

between forces and trusts, that is

no bad thing. That takes me on to

2:54:092:54:13

the point that I will conclude on,

which is perhaps one of the most

2:54:132:54:21

difficult and contentious points. It

goes to the heart of my opening

2:54:212:54:25

remarks about the impact that this

bill could have on British society,

2:54:252:54:29

because without a shadow of a doubt,

we know that there have been

2:54:292:54:34

examples of a huge community

friction, of civil disorder and

2:54:342:54:40

further injury and loss of life,

which have been caused when families

2:54:402:54:47

and friends of families and wider

communities feel that the use of

2:54:472:54:51

force has led to an unnecessary

death, and that is particularly

2:54:512:54:56

acute, and I'll be as cautious as I

can with the words I use,

2:54:562:55:02

particularly in Britain's black

communities. This huge

2:55:022:55:07

disproportionality, it cannot

possibly be explained just by

2:55:072:55:10

chance, between deaths in custody

and injury of people suffering

2:55:102:55:14

mental health episodes, between the

black community in Britain and the

2:55:142:55:17

rest of the communities in Britain,

has got to be addressed. I know

2:55:172:55:22

there is no single actor Bill that

can solve that. It has been long in

2:55:222:55:27

the making and I suggest will take a

long time to resolve, but I do think

2:55:272:55:31

this bill can be a big step in the

right direction. It reduces the

2:55:312:55:39

incidence of serious injury or

fatality of people suffering mental

2:55:392:55:43

health episodes. That will have a

knock-on effect to reduce some of

2:55:432:55:48

that community friction, reduce some

of the disorder we have seen in the

2:55:482:55:51

past. If, and unfortunately I

suspect there will be future cases

2:55:512:55:58

where a black person, a black man is

detained and dies after contact with

2:55:582:56:02

the police, if it can be shown, if

it can be evidenced that in all

2:56:022:56:10

instances, force is applied

modestly, minimally, only when

2:56:102:56:17

absolutely necessary, that might

actually help defuse some attention,

2:56:172:56:23

which have led in the past further

difficulties in conclusion, I do

2:56:232:56:29

want to thank the honourable

gentleman, the member for Croydon

2:56:292:56:33

North, and the other honourable

members from across the house who

2:56:332:56:36

have supported this Bill, for

putting a Bill forward to this

2:56:362:56:40

place, which it makes it easy for

those of us who want to see

2:56:402:56:45

improvement in mental health and

community cohesion, to support it. I

2:56:452:56:48

commend it to the house.

2:56:482:56:51

Like other honourable members, I

would like to start by

2:56:572:57:03

congratulating the honourable

gentleman from Croydon North for

2:57:032:57:05

bringing forward such an important

bill. I know from my own experience

2:57:052:57:10

two years ago, when I was drawn in

the Private Member's Bill ballot, it

2:57:102:57:15

can feel like a bit of a mixed

blessing. There are a few days

2:57:152:57:19

leading up to publish your bill,

where we are probably the most

2:57:192:57:25

popular members of Parliament. And

telephone lines and e-mail inboxes

2:57:252:57:30

are rarely idle. But of course, once

the simple step of presenting a bill

2:57:302:57:41

is done, then the really hard work

begins. Not only producing the bill,

2:57:412:57:46

the explanatory notes and starting

to build the consensus which allows

2:57:462:57:50

the bill to have a reasonable chance

of progressing into legislation. The

2:57:502:57:54

honourable gentleman has done that

at exceptional in well to this point

2:57:542:57:58

and I know that he will be

proceeding as he has begun. I would

2:57:582:58:04

also like, I think those

constituents in Dudley South in

2:58:042:58:07

particular, some who have contacted

me with their own experiences, but

2:58:072:58:13

others with their own views of the

current use of force around mental

2:58:132:58:19

health units, and West Midlands

Police and the range of

2:58:192:58:23

organisations with an interest in

mental health policy who have

2:58:232:58:29

briefed us all and actually shed new

light on the scale and the nature of

2:58:292:58:40

the problems that currently exist

within the system. But I think in

2:58:402:58:49

recent years, mental health has come

to the fore in terms of public

2:58:492:58:54

policy, and much of this is due to

the outstanding work done by a

2:58:542:59:00

number of honourable and right

honourable member 's who have a real

2:59:002:59:04

passion for improving the way that

mental health is treated and

2:59:042:59:10

ensuring that parity of esteem is

not only a catchphrase, but actually

2:59:102:59:17

reflects the way in which mental

health is treated, not only within

2:59:172:59:22

the mental health service but also

across society more widely, in

2:59:222:59:27

particular the excellent work done

by the member for Halesowen when he

2:59:272:59:33

chaired the all-party group on

mental health, but also the

2:59:332:59:36

Secretary of State for Health, my

right honourable friend the member

2:59:362:59:41

for North East Bedfordshire, and of

course the right honourable member

2:59:412:59:48

for North Norfolk when they were

ministers responsible for mental

2:59:482:59:51

health. The changes in the

guidelines, and the ways sections

2:59:512:59:58

135 to 136 of the Mental Health Act

and with the new provisions that

2:59:583:00:04

will be brought in through the

police and crime act that gained

3:00:043:00:08

Royal assent earlier this year, the

political consensus that there is a

3:00:083:00:16

need to do more is being matched

with real progress in both policy

3:00:163:00:21

and legislation. So I think all of

us welcomed the prominent place that

3:00:213:00:30

mental health reform actually has,

not only in the Conservative

3:00:303:00:35

manifesto ahead of the general

election, but was then reflected in

3:00:353:00:39

the Queen's speech, and in the Prime

Minister and announcing that the

3:00:393:00:45

Government would begin a

comprehensive review of the Mental

3:00:453:00:47

Health Act. Public servants working

in the police, the NHS and the

3:00:473:00:55

justice system are often at the

front line dealing with people who

3:00:553:01:01

have mental and particularly those

who are being affected by acute

3:01:013:01:09

episodes of mental ill health. And

my honourable friend, the member for

3:01:093:01:19

Berwick-upon-Tweed I think was right

in questioning why we always talk

3:01:193:01:24

about mental health to mean mental

illness, but I think there is also

3:01:243:01:28

an important role for mental health

in terms of mental wellness, and

3:01:283:01:33

considering how we support, develop

and improve people's positive mental

3:01:333:01:36

health. But within our public policy

framework, a lot of the changes that

3:01:363:01:45

have happened in recent years, are

really being driven by innovation

3:01:453:01:51

within our public services, and I

think in particular of the excellent

3:01:513:01:55

work done by Inspector Michael Brown

who blogs as mental health,

3:01:553:02:02

previously of West Midlands Police,

I think he is now working for the

3:02:023:02:05

Chief Constable in this palace

bullies. It was largely because of

3:02:053:02:10

his work that I think the need for

his work -- that the need for

3:02:103:02:20

sections 135 to 136 came to public

awareness of the agenda. -- he is

3:02:203:02:30

now working for Dyfed-Powys Police.

Although the way people are treated

3:02:303:02:42

within the police and Kringle

justice system, although that is

3:02:423:02:48

35-year-old legislation, it is

barely different to equivalent

3:02:483:02:52

measures which were in the 1959

Mental Health Act. 60 years ago

3:02:523:02:58

there were still a number of silence

in Britain. The whole approach to

3:02:583:03:03

mental health was completely

different from today. -- a number of

3:03:033:03:07

asylums. Thankfully, we do not have

asylums. We are making huge efforts

3:03:073:03:13

to treat people within the

community. We need to make sure that

3:03:133:03:18

the legislative frameworks which

were designed for a completely

3:03:183:03:21

different society, as well as a

completely different outlook and

3:03:213:03:26

approach to mental health care, that

public policy and legislation does

3:03:263:03:31

adapt, and I think this bill is a

very important part to play in

3:03:313:03:40

changing the legislative framework.

In my own area, West Midlands Police

3:03:403:03:49

force have made substantial progress

in the way that they deal with

3:03:493:03:53

people suffering from mental

illness. The office of the West

3:03:533:03:59

Midlands Police and crime

commission, together with the West

3:03:593:04:02

Midlands combined authority provided

an update. This was really a summary

3:04:023:04:10

of the innovation they have done

particularly with the model of

3:04:103:04:16

mental health triage that has been

operating for the last few years. We

3:04:163:04:21

have got a successful model which

has been rolled out now across the

3:04:213:04:25

force for mental health triage

across the Black Country, Birmingham

3:04:253:04:28

and Solihull, and the model relies

on the use of an ambulance vehicle

3:04:283:04:34

with a mental health nurse and a

paramedic to be available between

3:04:343:04:37

ten and up in the morning and two

o'clock the following morning, to

3:04:373:04:41

insure that when there is a call-out

where it is thought that there could

3:04:413:04:50

be mental health issues to consider,

that there is an appropriate health

3:04:503:04:56

response and health assessment,

alongside and as part of the

3:04:563:04:59

police's own response. I had the

privilege shortly before I was

3:04:593:05:06

elected to Parliament, of joining a

triage team on a call-out in

3:05:063:05:11

Birmingham and had seen how it

worked, the difference it made,

3:05:113:05:15

compared to the old model of

deploying police officers and more

3:05:153:05:19

often than not, somebody who was

suffering from a serious episode of

3:05:193:05:27

mental ill-health ending up in a

police cell or other custodial

3:05:273:05:32

setting. An example of the way the

is that when a report was received

3:05:323:05:40

from both the police and the

Ambulance Service, of a 19-year-old

3:05:403:05:44

female self harming in the street

and threatening to kill herself, a

3:05:443:05:49

check on the mental health Systems

was able to quickly establish that

3:05:493:05:54

she had an extensive history with

the service, and the ambulance on

3:05:543:06:00

the scene had wanted to take the

female immediately to an Acute

3:06:003:06:07

Hospital, a physical health

hospital. But allowing for the

3:06:073:06:12

street triage team to be deployed,

not only could her wounds they

3:06:123:06:17

dressed by the paramedic on the car

at the scene, but a face-to-face

3:06:173:06:24

assessment could be carried out with

the mental health nurse, and urgent

3:06:243:06:28

referral was able to be made to the

home treatment team, so she was able

3:06:283:06:34

to get crisis access to services

overnight, and then home treatment

3:06:343:06:39

available the very next day, a much

more appropriate response to

3:06:393:06:44

somebody going through a crisis, and

ultimately, the woman was

3:06:443:06:49

safeguarded with her friend for the

evening, who was able to take her

3:06:493:06:54

home, stay with her through the

night and the whole incident lasted

3:06:543:06:57

45 minutes, compared to the many,

many hours that it would have taken,

3:06:573:07:03

had she had to be taken through A&E

and then through other more

3:07:033:07:11

conventional settings. So the triage

teams in the West Midlands have been

3:07:113:07:19

involved with approximately 9000

people in the last year, and as a

3:07:193:07:23

result of this, and whilst we have

heard some worrying figures around

3:07:233:07:31

the country, the use of 136 powers

within the West Midlands, has been

3:07:313:07:37

able to be reduced by about a third

over the last five years, from

3:07:373:07:43

typically 12 to 1300 year, to 852

times last year. And remarkably, in

3:07:433:07:53

the first half of this year, there

was nobody at all in the West

3:07:533:07:59

Midlands detained in police custody

under section 136 of the Mental

3:07:593:08:04

Health Act. The first time that this

has ever happened in the West

3:08:043:08:08

Midlands. Instead, ever 8000 people

have received alternative outcomes,

3:08:083:08:14

including referrals to their GP or

other partners, to ensure they got

3:08:143:08:20

mental health care, rather than it

being seen purely as a criminal

3:08:203:08:25

justice matter. And whilst

significant progress has been made

3:08:253:08:29

and continues to be made, this bill

will help to make further progress,

3:08:293:08:35

especially through the way that it

addresses the use of force and

3:08:353:08:40

restraint against people suffering

from mental ill-health. Currently,

3:08:403:08:44

the code of practice clearly states

that restrictive practices should

3:08:443:08:49

only be used where there is a real

possibility of real harm, either to

3:08:493:08:53

the patient or to the others, and it

should not be used to either punish

3:08:533:08:59

or inflict pain or suffering, and it

should be used with minimum

3:08:593:09:05

interference to autonomy, privacy

and dignity. In the case of children

3:09:053:09:08

and young people, it really should

not be used at all. Staff should

3:09:083:09:17

always ensure that restraint is only

used after taking into account

3:09:173:09:22

individual's age, their size,

physical vulnerability and emotional

3:09:223:09:26

and psychological material to.

Although these guidelines exist,

3:09:263:09:31

further openness around the use of

force and restraint is of course not

3:09:313:09:36

only welcome, and progressive, but

absolutely necessary for the

3:09:363:09:43

individuals involved, for our public

services to have confidence that the

3:09:433:09:47

action they are taking is reasonable

and defensible. Clause five of the

3:09:473:09:55

bill which requires that registered

managers must have a training

3:09:553:10:00

programme for front line staff is

particularly important. Front line

3:10:003:10:05

staff would include all people who

are a registered manager and might

3:10:053:10:10

reasonably expect to use force or

authorise force on a patient. And

3:10:103:10:18

guaranteeing staff are using the

latest and safest procedures should

3:10:183:10:23

also be an opportunity to build on

previous learning, not only on

3:10:233:10:30

mental health care and proportion

used, but also one wider issues of

3:10:303:10:35

equality and necessity. Clause six,

which deals with the requirement for

3:10:353:10:41

all mental health service providers

to systematically record information

3:10:413:10:45

on their use of force, as has been

said, if you measure it, you can

3:10:453:10:50

actually track progress and you can

drive changes in behaviour. So

3:10:503:10:56

including records of gender, age and

ethnicity of the patient will help

3:10:563:11:02

to improve our understanding, more

importantly our public services'

3:11:023:11:05

understanding of the use of

restraint, particularly on the basis

3:11:053:11:10

of gender and of race.

3:11:103:11:18

Turning to body worn video, clause

13 provides that police officers

3:11:183:11:23

called to a mental health unit for

any reason must wear a body that is

3:11:233:11:28

accorded as soon as is reasonably

practical. Again within my own force

3:11:283:11:34

area, method

hash-mac West Midlands is now

3:11:343:11:38

rolling out body cameras to all of

its response officers and the kind

3:11:383:11:42

of body cameras that are being used

in the West Midlands can be

3:11:423:11:47

automatically triggered, they can be

automatically triggered perhaps by a

3:11:473:11:51

siren or blue light, automatically

triggered if their are deployed or

3:11:513:11:57

if firearms are drawn. I would hope

that we can look at how there might

3:11:573:12:04

be triggers that could be

automatically used to allow for

3:12:043:12:10

these body cameras to be

automatically deployed without

3:12:103:12:16

relying on necessarily human error.

These cameras will automatically

3:12:163:12:18

stay on until they are manually

turned off, Woodward really...

3:12:183:12:24

Please do.

With the honourable

member agree with me that it makes

3:12:243:12:30

sense that if a police officer is on

duty in a response roles then the

3:12:303:12:33

camera should be on? Given we see

other walks of life with like --

3:12:333:12:37

like ticket inspectors who wear them

constantly, it should not be that

3:12:373:12:41

difficult to place them on on duty

police officers.

My honourable

3:12:413:12:46

friend makes an excellent point and

is absolutely right, the use of body

3:12:463:12:50

cameras we have seen in other

scenarios, it helps to protect the

3:12:503:12:55

police as well as protecting anyone

that the police are responding to.

I

3:12:553:13:03

am very grateful. My understanding

is that in some areas, certainly

3:13:033:13:09

with some police forces, the issue

is that the battery life on some of

3:13:093:13:13

these cameras is not that it could

be and therefore there is an issue

3:13:133:13:16

that it may not last long enough in

all of the circumstances in which he

3:13:163:13:20

agree that we need better technology

for the battery life before we start

3:13:203:13:24

making, insisting on these things

being used in all circumstances?

It

3:13:243:13:29

is extremely important that we have

the appropriate technology and of

3:13:293:13:35

course the life that they can be

used on the front line is a key part

3:13:353:13:40

of that. The systems that are used

in the West Midlands are I think

3:13:403:13:46

partly funded through the Home

Office and they are now being rolled

3:13:463:13:53

out, and police are confident they

are able to use them from when they

3:13:533:13:56

are automatically triggered through

to when they can be uploaded, the

3:13:563:14:02

footage can be uploaded back at the

station. As has already been pointed

3:14:023:14:10

out, the research strongly suggests

that the use of force is reduced by

3:14:103:14:17

about half that if body cameras are

worn, attacks on police officers are

3:14:173:14:24

reduced in the West Midlands, the

experience has been harmed to police

3:14:243:14:29

officers has been reduced by about

three quarters, since body cameras

3:14:293:14:33

started been routinely used. And

complaints against police officers

3:14:333:14:38

fallen by over 90%. Whether it's

evidence of a body camera. As I

3:14:383:14:48

began, there has been great progress

in the area of mental health, there

3:14:483:14:54

is still much more that needs to be

done. We do need greater focus on

3:14:543:14:58

mental wellness. On prevention. An

early intervention. And on ensuring

3:14:583:15:05

the primary care is in a position to

support and treat patients at an

3:15:053:15:10

early stage. But there are of course

always going to be occasions where

3:15:103:15:17

restraint is appropriate and even a

small member of circumstances in

3:15:173:15:24

which use of force is necessary. But

that use of force must be properly

3:15:243:15:31

regulated, it must be registered, it

must be controlled and it must be an

3:15:313:15:37

absolute last resort where no other

adequate course of action is

3:15:373:15:42

available. Sorry...

I thank my

honourable friend for giving way. In

3:15:423:15:57

Kent we have seen an increase of the

use of police and body worn cameras

3:15:573:16:04

and I think that we have actually

done quite well so pretty maybe give

3:16:043:16:09

me slightly more information on what

he is actually seeing happening in

3:16:093:16:13

Dudley?

Dudley says! Yes, the first

year of general use of these body

3:16:133:16:25

cameras, as I said, has shown very

sharp falls in the double of

3:16:253:16:29

assaults against police officers,

there have been fewer complaints

3:16:293:16:35

against police officers and the time

it takes to handle responses has

3:16:353:16:46

fallen from taking many hours of

investigating and -- and phone calls

3:16:463:16:53

to in some cases barely minutes,

reviewing clear evidence on body

3:16:533:16:56

cameras. So the measures in this,

the measures in this bill are

3:16:563:17:04

necessary, they are welcome, so I

wholeheartedly support its today and

3:17:043:17:10

look forward to supporting it in its

passage through this place.

Thank

3:17:103:17:20

you Madam Deputy Speaker. I join

with members across this house in

3:17:203:17:23

congratulating the member from

Croydon North for bringing this bill

3:17:233:17:28

before us today. I would also like

to thank him for the very

3:17:283:17:30

constructive way in which he has

engaged with me and my officials and

3:17:303:17:34

I'm looking forward to taking this

bill further on and hopefully

3:17:343:17:38

completing its journey so that we

can indeed bring this law to the

3:17:383:17:41

statute book. The death in question

was a tragedy and the honourable

3:17:413:17:49

member has been deeply touched by

this incident, so touched that he

3:17:493:17:52

has brought forward this bill and

brought together an impressive

3:17:523:17:55

coalition of interests behind it.

Good- and give my very best wishes

3:17:553:18:00

to the family? I know it has been a

very difficult time for them and my

3:18:003:18:06

deepest sympathies are extended to

them. Now as we have heard, this

3:18:063:18:11

bill seeks to reduce the

inappropriate use of force or

3:18:113:18:13

restraint against people with mental

ill-health to allow greater scrutiny

3:18:133:18:18

of force in mental health units and

to ensure that police officers use

3:18:183:18:22

body worn video cameras in the

course of their duties in relation

3:18:223:18:26

to people in mental health units. It

also seeks to guarantee that the

3:18:263:18:32

mental health system learns from and

applies appropriate lessons in

3:18:323:18:34

relation to the use of force. For

too long restricted interventions

3:18:343:18:39

have been accepted as the norm in

health and mental health care

3:18:393:18:43

settings -- settings, and we want to

change the culture around the use of

3:18:433:18:47

restricted interventions and that is

why the government supports the

3:18:473:18:50

principle set out in this bill...

I

think it is important also that we

3:18:503:18:56

note that in 2015 there was 67,864

incidents against NHS staff, 67% of

3:18:563:19:07

those took place in a mental health

setting, so we do need to appreciate

3:19:073:19:10

that there is a need for force

because sometimes those staff

3:19:103:19:13

working in the situations needs to

be protected.

The honourable

3:19:133:19:20

gentleman makes a valid point. We

are all agreed in this house that we

3:19:203:19:26

need to get the rights and liberties

balanced against the need to achieve

3:19:263:19:30

safety. And that I can say quite

categorically I think that this bill

3:19:303:19:35

goes a long way to. That is why the

government supports this bill and I

3:19:353:19:44

think the honourable gentleman will

also accept that there are still

3:19:443:19:46

some work to do in the detail about

the right mechanisms and processes

3:19:463:19:50

but I think those are things we can

explore in committee and we are

3:19:503:19:53

fully behind giving this bill a

second reading.

I am very grateful

3:19:533:19:58

to my honourable friend for giving

way. Would she agree with me at the

3:19:583:20:02

thrust of this bill is about

accountability and the measures it

3:20:023:20:07

provides give both protection for

the individual and patient but also

3:20:073:20:11

the professionals working around

them?

I agree with that point, ably

3:20:113:20:16

made by my honourable friend,

because what this bill does is bring

3:20:163:20:20

real accountability and transparency

to the system which will actually

3:20:203:20:22

protect everyone in the system. I

welcome the opportunity to debate

3:20:223:20:28

this today and to highlight some of

the progress we have already made on

3:20:283:20:31

some of the provisions the bill is

seeking to introduce and

3:20:313:20:33

strengthened. But first I think we

should examine exactly the issue

3:20:333:20:38

regarding restrictive restraint. It

is not a great picture, to be frank.

3:20:383:20:45

Information from NHS digital shows

that in 2013-14, more than 6000

3:20:453:20:51

people who spent time in hospital

were subject to at least one

3:20:513:20:54

incident of restraint. Collectively

these people experienced more than

3:20:543:21:00

23,000 incidents of restraint. With

960 people having been restrained

3:21:003:21:04

five or more times in a year. And as

colleagues across the house have

3:21:043:21:09

told that can bring real trauma and

should be avoided at all costs. We

3:21:093:21:14

also know that a group of inpatients

which experienced the highest

3:21:143:21:17

proportion of restraint was the

category labelled mixed ethnic

3:21:173:21:22

group, with 101 incidents of

restraint out 1000 inpatients, and

3:21:223:21:27

we really needs to get to the bottom

of why that is the case. We also

3:21:273:21:31

know that there is a link between

the use of restraint and particular

3:21:313:21:35

points in the patient pathway. For

example in 2015 the survey of

3:21:353:21:39

restraint commission by the

government found that 23.6% of

3:21:393:21:44

restraint incidents occurred in the

first week of admission. We have

3:21:443:21:47

also talked about gender and can

confirm that 57.4% of people

3:21:473:21:53

restraint were men, compared to

42.5% being women, that clearly does

3:21:533:21:58

not reflect the gender balance of

people in detention. Members have

3:21:583:22:04

also referred to the fact that on

Monday the house welcomed the

3:22:043:22:09

publication of the independent

review of deaths and serious

3:22:093:22:12

incident in police custody and the

government response. The report is

3:22:123:22:16

very thorough, it identified from

boyhood and at every stage of the

3:22:163:22:19

procedures and processes surrounding

police custody. It made 110

3:22:193:22:26

recommendations regarding the use of

restraint, training for officers and

3:22:263:22:29

making it easier for families facing

inquests into deaths in police

3:22:293:22:35

custody to access a legal aid and

nine of the honourable gentleman is

3:22:353:22:37

very concerned about that issue. The

extent to which these techniques

3:22:373:22:43

considered deaths in custody and

whether they are fit for purpose is

3:22:433:22:46

a crucial aspect of the report.

Police training and practice

3:22:463:22:51

emphasised that under certain

circumstances any form of restraint

3:22:513:22:54

can potentially lead to death. So

the national police chief counsel

3:22:543:22:59

and the College of policing continue

to ensure that the legal medical and

3:22:593:23:04

tactical advice is embedded through

the national personal safety manual,

3:23:043:23:08

especially in relation to charges of

fraud restraint and mental health

3:23:083:23:13

issues. I know some members today

have expressed views on the use of

3:23:133:23:16

restraint and particularly prone

restraint, with some people

3:23:163:23:21

suggesting that this type of

restraint should be banned

3:23:213:23:23

altogether. As a note of caution I

was at Broadmoor yesterday and was

3:23:233:23:31

told about the man had experienced a

head injury who needed stitches.

3:23:313:23:35

Because of the challenges of his

behaviour and mental health

3:23:353:23:39

conditions, the prone restraint was

used. I am not condoning the use of

3:23:393:23:42

prone restraint in the situation or

in any other, but I will offer a

3:23:423:23:46

word of caution, we need to

understand restraint and define it

3:23:463:23:50

clearly before undertaking an

outright ban. The guidance does tell

3:23:503:23:54

us that prone restraint should only

be used as a last resort, and I

3:23:543:23:57

think we must be careful not to put

potentially staff at risk by

3:23:573:24:01

introducing a blanket ban without

first understanding more about the

3:24:013:24:05

circumstances when this type of

restraint might be necessary. In

3:24:053:24:10

August this year the CKC published

its estate of care in mental health

3:24:103:24:15

services report. That report

identified variances in how

3:24:153:24:17

frequently staff views

hash-mac/ news restricted practices

3:24:173:24:21

to manage people with challenging

behaviour and the CTC is looking at

3:24:213:24:25

this more closely. It has committed

to reviewing how the assess the use

3:24:253:24:30

of these interventions and this will

include developing and regularly

3:24:303:24:33

updating tools for the inspection

teams to ensure consistency of

3:24:333:24:36

assessment and reporting. We believe

that the variances are as much today

3:24:363:24:41

with the principles in making the

reports as in behaviour. As part of

3:24:413:24:48

the mental health at annual report

of activity the CKC is developing a

3:24:483:24:51

publication to highlight areas of

good practice in reducing the need

3:24:513:24:55

for restrictive interventions.

Colleagues at the CKC have indicated

3:24:553:24:59

that they support the principles

better reporting, improved training

3:24:593:25:03

and accountability and greater

transparency under this bill and it

3:25:033:25:06

is vital we also engage with them as

we this forward. Turning now to the

3:25:063:25:12

provisions in the bill, a provision

of the bill is front-line staff to

3:25:123:25:15

have training inequality,

non-discrimination and conduct under

3:25:153:25:20

the equality act 2010, a, informed

approach to care and, critically,

3:25:203:25:27

techniques to avoid a reduced use of

force. Individual providers are

3:25:273:25:32

expected to ensure that their staff

an appropriately trained in the use

3:25:323:25:36

of force and there are many training

programmes available to the health

3:25:363:25:39

service providers. What this bill

will help us to address is the

3:25:393:25:43

variation across the system in what

training staff are receiving. Health

3:25:433:25:48

care providers are encouraged to

focus training on de-escalation,

3:25:483:25:53

understanding the course of

behaviour that challenges and

3:25:533:25:57

reflect on incident of restraint to

see how they can be reduced or

3:25:573:26:00

avoided for both the individual

concerned and all service users.

3:26:003:26:05

Treating and caring for people in a

safe, compassionate environment for

3:26:053:26:10

patients and staff is a priority for

this government. We know that

3:26:103:26:14

restrictive physical interventions

are risky for all individuals

3:26:143:26:17

involved and they have a negative

impact on patient dignity and their

3:26:173:26:20

trust in services. We have made

progress since the publication of

3:26:203:26:27

positive and proactive care,

reducing the need for respect of

3:26:273:26:29

interventions in April 20 14.

3:26:293:26:40

It also recommends that all

restricted interventions should be

3:26:403:26:44

for the shortest time possible and

use the least restrictive means. The

3:26:443:26:50

guidance developed plans. These

plans, along with organisations'

3:26:503:27:00

relatively relative use of

restraints forms a key part of the

3:27:003:27:06

CQC inspections and we expect the

CQC to use its regulatory powers to

3:27:063:27:12

minimise the use of force including

face down restraint. Our colleagues

3:27:123:27:17

in the police are also training

officers on how to respond to calls

3:27:173:27:21

which relate to those with mental

health difficulties and other

3:27:213:27:28

difficulties. Revised guidance was

published by the College of Policing

3:27:283:27:32

in October last year. This aims to

give officers the knowledge they

3:27:323:27:36

need to resolve situations and

ensure the public get the most

3:27:363:27:39

appropriate service. Whilst the

police are not, and not expected to

3:27:393:27:45

be mental health professionals, they

are often the first on the scene of

3:27:453:27:50

those experiencing mental health

crisis. The aim is therefore to

3:27:503:27:54

insure that officers respond

appropriately. An data collection,

3:27:543:27:58

the bill seeks to gain more detailed

information on instances of force

3:27:583:28:05

used in mental health settings. NHS

digital has collected information

3:28:053:28:09

about the use of face down

restraint, as part of the mental

3:28:093:28:13

health service data set. There is

still a lot of work to be done on

3:28:133:28:16

the quality of the data as the

honourable gentleman referred. It

3:28:163:28:20

does not go to the amount of detail

that the bill would currently

3:28:203:28:23

require but we are confident that we

can make changes to improve the

3:28:233:28:27

transparency of the information we

collect.

Point of order, Madam

3:28:273:28:34

Deputy Speaker, that the question

been output.

The question is that

3:28:343:28:45

the question been output. The ayes

have it, the ayes have it. The

3:28:453:28:51

question is that the hill is read a

second time. As many as are of the

3:28:513:28:56

opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,

"no". The ayes have it, the ayes

3:28:563:28:59

have it.

Representation of the people, young

3:28:593:29:09

people's enfranchisement and

education Bill second reading.

3:29:093:29:15

Jim McMahon.

Thank you, Madam Deputy

Speaker. I beg to move that the

3:29:153:29:21

representation of the people, young

people's enfranchisement and

3:29:213:29:24

education Bill now be read for a

second time. Firstly, Madam Deputy

3:29:243:29:31

Speaker, the debate that we just had

an mental health was a very

3:29:313:29:35

important debate, and I congratulate

my honourable friend for moving that

3:29:353:29:39

important issue, and I reflect on

the quality of the contributions

3:29:393:29:42

made. It is though apparent that

there were members who were keen to

3:29:423:29:48

talk at great length in support of

that bill, no doubt to reduce the

3:29:483:29:54

amount of time that was available...

Shane!

Order, order, order. If any

3:29:543:30:06

member of this House was speaking in

this House in a way that was

3:30:063:30:09

inappropriate or for the wrong

reasons then the occupant of the

3:30:093:30:18

Chao, who was not me at that time,

would have stopped them from so

3:30:183:30:21

doing. I'm sure if any member was

making a speech about something they

3:30:213:30:26

feel passionately, sometimes they do

go one rather longer than they

3:30:263:30:29

might. But if it was improper then

it would have been stopped. Mr

3:30:293:30:35

McMahon.

I absolutely take the point

made about the passionate way that

3:30:353:30:40

some members made their speech. I

also reflect that some people find

3:30:403:30:44

it easier to hide their obvious

passion but still went on at great

3:30:443:30:50

length as well and I respect them in

the same way.

3:30:503:30:53

LAUGHTER

Sit down!

There is a moment in time

3:30:533:31:03

when the time comes to reform and

any democracy, for it to be relevant

3:31:033:31:08

must reform, must take into account

where it is, and must listen to the

3:31:083:31:13

mood of the public. This parliament

is nothing, if it is not the voice

3:31:133:31:20

of the people who we are here to

represent. Now, after many years of

3:31:203:31:26

debate, after many years of

campaigning, it is my strong belief

3:31:263:31:29

that now is the time to extend the

franchise. Now is the time to give

3:31:293:31:37

16 and 17-year-olds the right to

vote. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, I

3:31:373:31:43

have something to admit to today,

that I feel...

Point of order.

3:31:433:31:56

Deputy Speaker, I felt as if I was

accused for speaking in the last

3:31:563:32:00

debate and taking up a lot of time.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I made two

3:32:003:32:07

short interventions and I had been

in this chamber for a number of

3:32:073:32:11

hours. The honourable gentleman

opposite was not. Madam Deputy

3:32:113:32:15

Speaker, do you think he should

apologise?

3:32:153:32:20

Order, order. I appreciate the point

the honourable lady is making. I

3:32:203:32:24

have already dealt with the matter

that the honourable gentleman has

3:32:243:32:28

raised. It is up to each member of

this House to judge when they speak,

3:32:283:32:35

how they speak, the amount of

passion they use and the length of

3:32:353:32:39

time they speak except when I tell

them not to.

3:32:393:32:41

Mr McMahon.

Can I congratulate the

member on that point of order,

3:32:413:32:49

almost a shoo-in for the amateur

dramatic Society. But also the

3:32:493:32:55

important matter in hand. Because

today is not about... Today is not

3:32:553:33:07

about people's egos in this place.

Today is about people outside this

3:33:073:33:14

place.

Order! Order, order! Order!

The honourable gentleman is making

3:33:143:33:25

an important speech on an important

matter and he must be heard. He must

3:33:253:33:31

be heard. Mr McMahon.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker for

3:33:313:33:37

that helpful assertion on your part.

My point was this. Today in this

3:33:373:33:43

chamber, and I should say that to

the first time I have felt this, I

3:33:433:33:48

felt it in my maiden speech, I felt

contributions being important, but

3:33:483:33:52

today is the first time I feel the

great weight of responsibility on my

3:33:523:33:57

shoulders. And the reason for that

is not because of the grandeur and

3:33:573:34:03

the status of this place, the reason

for that is because the reason why

3:34:033:34:09

is my Private Member's Bill, is

because it was selected by the old

3:34:093:34:15

youth Council. I am pleased to say

that they are here in the gallery

3:34:153:34:20

today. I'm very proud of the town

where I live, I am very proud of the

3:34:203:34:28

town I now represent in parliament

and I can say the Oldham youth

3:34:283:34:33

Council makes me extremely proud of

the young people who are growing up

3:34:333:34:36

in our town. If you ever believe

that young people do not have a

3:34:363:34:44

political view, are not informed,

have not educated themselves on the

3:34:443:34:48

matters of the day, then I would say

contact your local youth Council and

3:34:483:34:53

have your education. Our democracy

and our franchise has always

3:34:533:34:58

evolved. 200 years ago, working men

and women did not have the right to

3:34:583:35:06

vote. Next year we will be

reflecting on 100 years of women's

3:35:063:35:11

suffrage when women were given the

right to vote for the first time.

3:35:113:35:15

And it was less than 50 years ago

that 18, 19 and 20 -year-olds were

3:35:153:35:24

denied the right to vote. Our

franchise has always been in

3:35:243:35:28

evolution, it has always taken into

account where the public mood is,

3:35:283:35:31

and this is really important, it has

always been about making sure that

3:35:313:35:36

we expand democracy to be as

inclusive as possible, so it is not

3:35:363:35:40

an exclusive club where power is

held by the few. And there are

3:35:403:35:46

different approaches on this. I

would respect the Government who

3:35:463:35:49

says we have heard the debate, we

have taken into account the points

3:35:493:35:56

that have been made, we have seen

the evidence base, but ultimately,

3:35:563:36:00

we have arrived at a different

conclusion than the member. I would

3:36:003:36:04

respect that. What I do not respect

is a government which works in the

3:36:043:36:08

shadows, that is scared of having a

parliamentary vote because they know

3:36:083:36:16

they cannot win. That is not a

government in charge, that is a weak

3:36:163:36:20

government. It cannot even control

its own members and I pay tribute to

3:36:203:36:28

their members who have listened to

the debate from our young people who

3:36:283:36:32

want a voice in our democracy. Shame

on you that you did not push that,

3:36:323:36:41

shame on the members for not pushing

that. The Prime Minister is the

3:36:413:36:50

weakest we have seen a Prime

Minister in this generation. When

3:36:503:36:54

the Cabinet is in shambles, that

would have been the time when the

3:36:543:36:58

backbenchers could have stood up and

moved this issue with the Government

3:36:583:37:02

of the day. But far better to stay

in position and hope that at some

3:37:023:37:08

point, the greasy pole will be

theirs to climb, and I hope that it

3:37:083:37:13

is, and they get their just reward.

Sit down! Sit down!

The Labour Party

3:37:133:37:26

is confident in our policies, we are

confident in our arguments. We

3:37:263:37:31

believe that the best way to win the

argument is to go and speak to

3:37:313:37:38

people, to convince, to inform and

if needed, to change position.

The

3:37:383:37:47

honourable gentleman is not giving

way.

It is called debate!

No need to

3:37:473:37:56

shout. Mr McMahon. He might consider

giving way but he does not have to

3:37:563:38:03

if he does not want to.

Thank you,

Madam Deputy Speaker. There are two

3:38:033:38:12

ways of running a government and the

country. One is to narrow the

3:38:123:38:17

franchise and squeeze it as much as

possible. How would you do that? You

3:38:173:38:21

could exclude people from the

electoral register. You could force

3:38:213:38:24

people to show ID at a polling

station when there is no obligation

3:38:243:38:29

to even hold photographic ID in this

country. You could gerrymander the

3:38:293:38:35

boundaries. With your mates and your

donors. There are plenty of ways of

3:38:353:38:42

manipulating a system but, we

believe that the best way to run a

3:38:423:38:49

democracy is by extending the

franchise and including people. This

3:38:493:38:54

is not about gaming the system, this

is about including people and

3:38:543:39:00

hearing what people are saying, and

importantly, taking into account

3:39:003:39:05

what people were telling us in the

Brexit debate, people were demanding

3:39:053:39:09

that we take back control. And I

think the very fact that the way

3:39:093:39:15

today has gone means we might not

even get to a vote today. I think

3:39:153:39:21

the Government benches ought to be

very concerned, because 16 and

3:39:213:39:26

17-year-olds today might be denied

the right to vote, but in two years'

3:39:263:39:29

time... They will remember, they

will remember... I will give way.

3:39:293:39:53

Order, order, order! Order! This is

not a football match. We are having

3:39:533:40:05

a debate will stop we will behave in

an honourable and decent manner. Mr

3:40:053:40:15

Owen is intervening.

My honourable friend was right to

3:40:153:40:23

remind the House how out of touch

the Conservative Party are coming,

3:40:233:40:27

but on the serious point of

16-year-olds, in Scotland they are

3:40:273:40:32

moving progressively towards this.

The Welsh Government have a

3:40:323:40:36

consultation on 16 and 17-year-olds.

It is time this House caught up and

3:40:363:40:41

I am fully supportive, as are the

people of Wales.

My honourable

3:40:413:40:46

friend makes a very important point.

OK, for balance, Madam Deputy

3:40:463:40:52

Speaker, let me take an intervention

from the other side.

3:40:523:41:00

I don't know if maybe his speech at

the moment was maybe his own

3:41:003:41:06

leadership speech with getting his

colleagues to row him, but I would

3:41:063:41:11

like to ask him, and I would like to

ask him for clarification on the

3:41:113:41:18

fact he said he would not take

interventions on this side of the

3:41:183:41:21

House because we have had our time,

it was not this side of the House's

3:41:213:41:25

fault that no one from your party

decided to speak in the last debate.

3:41:253:41:33

Could you clarify that point from a?

Order! We are not debating the last

3:41:333:41:39

speech. We are debating this bill

and that is what we will talk about.

3:41:393:41:45

Mr McMahon.

3:41:453:41:51

I think you'll find on this side

matter matter is leader and who

3:41:513:41:55

isn't is settled. It is actually the

Conservative Party... I thoroughly

3:41:553:42:07

expect a delegation to be knocking

on the door of Number Ten in the

3:42:073:42:11

coming weeks, but let's leave that

there are. We have heard already how

3:42:113:42:15

the mood in Scotland has already

changed, and it was to me inspiring

3:42:153:42:22

the way 75% of 16-17 -year-old came

out to vote in the 2014 Scottish

3:42:223:42:27

referendum. I will give way to my

friend.

I thank my friends are

3:42:273:42:30

giving way. Would he agree with me

that in places like Bradford, who

3:42:303:42:35

will be the youngest city by 2020,

this vote is absolutely imperative

3:42:353:42:39

for our young constituents, and I

congratulate him for bringing this

3:42:393:42:43

up?

Can I thank my honourable friend

for that comment? Actually what I

3:42:433:42:50

think was shown by the Scottish

Conservative leader who says she is

3:42:503:42:55

now a fully paid-up member of the

board for 16... -- vote for 16. We

3:42:553:43:03

have already heard people in Wales

may soon be given the right to vote

3:43:033:43:08

as 16 and 17-year-olds. I thank him

for giving way. He mentioned Wales

3:43:083:43:13

again. There was actually a survey

of 10,000 young people in

Wales,

3:43:133:43:19

15-25, and only 29% of them opposed

giving the vote to 16, a clear

3:43:193:43:23

majority in favour of that. A lot of

them are far more mature and taking

3:43:233:43:28

place in politics than some of the

nonsense we have heard from the

3:43:283:43:31

benches opposite.

Abeid I click on

board entirely. -- that is a point I

3:43:313:43:40

take on board entirely. If we

continue as we are, young people in

3:43:403:43:44

Scotland and Wales will have the

right to vote in the elections that

3:43:443:43:48

will be denied that for young people

in England and Northern Ireland. Let

3:43:483:43:52

me just say this. If you believe in

a United Kingdom then we must have

3:43:523:43:57

democratic equality as well. United

by common rights, responsibilities

3:43:573:44:03

and with an equal voice in our

democracy. As much as this bill

3:44:033:44:08

seeks to extend the franchise, the

lion's share of the bill is about

3:44:083:44:12

education in schools. Because we

recognise that actually there is a

3:44:123:44:16

disconnect between politicians,

politics and the people who we say

3:44:163:44:20

we are here to serve and we see that

in voter turnout, in the public

3:44:203:44:24

mood, and we also hear it in the

Brexit debate, where people want to

3:44:243:44:28

take back control of their country

but don't quite know how to achieve

3:44:283:44:31

that. I will give way.

I thank him

for giving way. He mentions the

3:44:313:44:38

members of the youth Council and the

public gallery, he mentioned

3:44:383:44:41

education. Does he not think it

would be a better education if he

3:44:413:44:45

had adopted the tone of his

honourable friend the member for

3:44:453:44:48

Croydon North who sought genuine

cross-party agreement to progress

3:44:483:44:53

and bill, rather than spending the

opening ten minutes of his speech in

3:44:533:44:57

the most egregious partisan Thai

raid I have ever heard? Might it

3:44:573:45:05

affect the lesson he is actually

sending to the young people in the

3:45:053:45:07

gallery?

OK, well, obviously I

respect the point of view shown. I

3:45:073:45:14

have to say I was quite pleased with

my performance... I am disappointed

3:45:143:45:20

it wasn't shared by all members of

the House, but you can't win them

3:45:203:45:24

all! I will make progress because I

know people have put in to speak and

3:45:243:45:28

I think it is only right we hear

that. But this is not a party

3:45:283:45:31

political point. I think the way

today has gone has been partisan,

3:45:313:45:34

but this is a bill that is supported

across parties, supported by the

3:45:343:45:39

Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru, the

Green benches and the SNP, and

3:45:393:45:44

actually some Conservative members

who believe the time has now on to

3:45:443:45:48

extend the franchise. If we educate

young people in schools, if we give

3:45:483:45:53

them the vote at 16, I am absolutely

convinced they will carry that

3:45:533:45:58

voting habit into older life and it

will increase turnout,

3:45:583:46:02

participation, and it will value

even more the democracy that we see

3:46:023:46:06

here. I hope there is a proper

debate and proper contribution on

3:46:063:46:11

this. It could be that despite my

desire for the time to come for

3:46:113:46:16

this, that actually time does not

allow for it to come today. But I

3:46:163:46:19

would say this. The mood in the

country is changing. The mood across

3:46:193:46:25

the United Kingdom is now very

divided, where Scotland and Wales

3:46:253:46:30

will have different powers than

England and Northern Ireland, and I

3:46:303:46:33

just say this. For the future of our

United Kingdom, the future of our

3:46:333:46:39

democratic equality across our

country, let's just take the steps

3:46:393:46:42

we need to give 16 and 17-year-olds

the right to vote.

The question

3:46:423:46:53

is... Was that point of order?

Thank

you, Madame Deputy Speaker. I make a

3:46:533:46:59

point of order to ask you some

advice, Madame Deputy Speaker. I

3:46:593:47:03

tried on a number of occasions to

intervene and the honourable

3:47:033:47:06

gentleman turned me.

Order! A matter

of whether an intervention is taken

3:47:063:47:15

by the person who has the floor is

entirely up to the person who has

3:47:153:47:19

the floor and not a matter for Duce,

and if the honourable lady feels

3:47:193:47:25

aggrieved then I can understand --

not a for the the chair. But it is

3:47:253:47:31

not a matter for me. Further to that

point of order us

a point I wish to

3:47:313:47:39

make -- further to that point of

order? If the bill is such an

3:47:393:47:45

important matter could Madame Deputy

Speaker explain to me and the House

3:47:453:47:48

why there were no explanatory notes

produced with the bill?

Once again,

3:47:483:48:00

the procedure of producing

explanatory notes is a fairly new

3:48:003:48:03

procedure to the House of Commons,

and that might come as a surprise to

3:48:033:48:08

members who have not been here for a

very long, but not so long ago we

3:48:083:48:12

simply had to read the bills and sit

down until we could understand them.

3:48:123:48:18

A matter which I'm quite used to. It

is a matter of choice of the

3:48:183:48:27

promoter of the bill, whether that

be the Government or a Private

3:48:273:48:31

member or anyone else as to whether

they produce notes on the member in

3:48:313:48:36

charge of this bill has not decided

to produce such notes, it is

3:48:363:48:41

entirely up to him. It might be that

he thinks the bill is fairly

3:48:413:48:49

straightforward, but that is also

not a matter for me. The question is

3:48:493:48:58

that the bill be now read a second

time.

Thank you, Madame Deputy

3:48:583:49:06

Speaker. I congratulate the

honourable gentleman who has

3:49:063:49:09

introduced this bill for scoring a

ballot. In recent years the question

3:49:093:49:14

of whether the voting age should be

lowered to 16 has attracted a deal

3:49:143:49:18

of interest and comment, and this

includes inquiries by the high with

3:49:183:49:22

working party on electoral

procedures in 1989, the Electoral

3:49:223:49:27

Commission in 2003, by the power

commission in 2006 -- the working

3:49:273:49:33

party on electoral procedures in

1999. And most recently by the

3:49:333:49:37

Commons Political and Constitutional

Reform Committee in 2015, to name

3:49:373:49:41

just but a few. The latter committee

has now merged with the public

3:49:413:49:46

demonstration Select Committee and

is now part of the Constitutional

3:49:463:49:51

affairs committee, which I chair,

although I speak in this debate in a

3:49:513:49:54

personal capacity. Madame Deputy

Speaker, the issues considered by

3:49:543:50:00

these inquiries has been wide

ranging and include comparisons of

3:50:003:50:03

the voting range in other

established democracies, the level

3:50:033:50:06

of support for lowering the voting

is amongst the electorate, the

3:50:063:50:10

political maturity of 16 and

17-year-olds, turnout amongst

3:50:103:50:13

younger voters and the age at which

people should become entitled to

3:50:133:50:17

different rights and duties. Any

voting age is somewhat arbitrary,

3:50:173:50:23

however there are strong argument in

favour of retaining the status quo,

3:50:233:50:27

and argument in favour of lowering

the voting age are at best somewhat

3:50:273:50:31

muddled and inconsistent. A line

must be clearly drawn somewhere, and

3:50:313:50:35

the present age of 18 is widely

accepted across society, and indeed

3:50:353:50:41

widely accepted across the vast

majority of countries in the world.

3:50:413:50:45

Only a tiny fraction of which have a

lower voting age than the United

3:50:453:50:48

Kingdom. What was that? Yes, I

certainly give way.

He may not

3:50:483:50:55

realise but this debate has been

pursued by the SNP for some years,

3:50:553:50:59

including in the maiden speech of

1967 in November and consistently

3:50:593:51:03

there has been an argument for

reducing the voting age. Do you not

3:51:033:51:08

agree it is no time to act on those

demands rather than continue to take

3:51:083:51:12

it into the long grass?

Without

wishing to introduce a partisan and

3:51:123:51:17

discordant note, it is possible for

another party to be consistently

3:51:173:51:22

wrong for a long period of time, and

I believe that is the case in the

3:51:223:51:26

matter she raises. Madame Deputy

Speaker, can I make a little bit of

3:51:263:51:29

progress, then I will give way

again? The Electoral Commission's

3:51:293:51:33

consultation paper on the voting age

in the UK was published in 2003 and

3:51:333:51:37

examined the voting age in other

countries. At that time, all EU

3:51:373:51:42

member states had a minimum voting

age of 18 in national elections. The

3:51:423:51:48

vote has subsequently been lowered

to 16 in Austria. I give way to the

3:51:483:51:51

honourable lady.

He says it is

possible for one party perhaps to be

3:51:513:51:57

consistently wrong. Would he accept

it is unlikely that four parties

3:51:573:52:01

could be consistently wrong, and

that two parts of the United Kingdom

3:52:013:52:05

have owned it -- who have found it

to be successful might be right?

3:52:053:52:12

This is a new concept of democracy

and never previously considered,

3:52:123:52:16

which as you don't actually count

the votes of the people who vote in

3:52:163:52:19

elections, just the number of

political parties. I'm afraid that's

3:52:193:52:22

not the way we decide issues in this

country. We are elected by voters,

3:52:223:52:27

not political parties. But it is

interesting that the only country in

3:52:273:52:30

which they have lowered the voting

age in the European Union is

3:52:303:52:33

Austria, where they have just

elected a rather unexpected head of

3:52:333:52:40

state. I give way to the honourable

gentleman.

Wiki recognise to me that

3:52:403:52:45

most young people in Austria voted

for moderate parties, and actually

3:52:453:52:48

it was young people in Austria that

where the moderating force from the

3:52:483:52:53

latest research that has been

published, not a radicalising force?

3:52:533:53:01

I think what we must avoid getting

drawn into, actually, and I

3:53:013:53:06

apologise for this from myself as

well, is that we are choosing who

3:53:063:53:10

the franchise should be on the basis

of whether we like the way they

3:53:103:53:13

vote. I think we should exclude

that. Yes, yes, I accept that, but

3:53:133:53:19

that is not the basis on which we

should be choosing who vote on

3:53:193:53:23

general elections are in the other

-- in any other forum. I will give

3:53:233:53:29

way and then I will make some

progress.

Does he not agree with me

3:53:293:53:33

that 16 and 17-year-olds, if they

are wise enough to be out on the

3:53:333:53:37

street, campaigning during the last

general election, then they are wise

3:53:373:53:40

enough to go and vote?

Yes, we take

our children out campaigning with

3:53:403:53:47

us, but I don't think that's an

argument, and in fact it is even

3:53:473:53:52

arguable, if you take 16 and

17-year-olds out campaigning with

3:53:523:53:55

you, you have a duty of care to

those people because they are not

3:53:553:53:58

yet adults, and I will come to that.

Well my honourable friend give way?

3:53:583:54:03

I really do want to make progress

but I will give weight to my

3:54:033:54:07

honourable friend.

Can I thank my

honourable friend for giving way?

3:54:073:54:12

And at least express my pleasure he

is putting out an essential

3:54:123:54:17

argument. Would he agree with me

that engaging young people in

3:54:173:54:20

politics is extremely important, and

therefore the element of this

3:54:203:54:24

private members bill which is very

significant is about the education

3:54:243:54:28

of young people in citizenship in

the Constitution? Would he agree

3:54:283:54:31

with me that that education is not

necessary to have the votes at 16 to

3:54:313:54:36

actually bring about what is, for me

and many others on this House, an

3:54:363:54:40

aborted engagement with young people

about the business of politics? I

3:54:403:54:44

totally agree -- and important

engagement. I agree with my

3:54:443:54:49

honourable friend a member on my

body. This is definitely

conflating

3:54:493:54:55

two issues and I expect one is

trying to be a carrier for the other

3:54:553:54:59

in the argument for this bill. But

the point is the voting age is 18,

3:54:593:55:03

or in some cases older. And that is

in the vast majority of countries

3:55:033:55:07

around the world, including the

greatest democracies like the USA

3:55:073:55:11

and in very similar countries as a

role, such as Canada. The UK's

3:55:113:55:15

voting age is therefore in line with

the norm and does not suggest any

3:55:153:55:21

room for change. I will make some

progress now, I'm afraid. It is

3:55:213:55:24

worth noting that many of the

countries with a lower voting age,

3:55:243:55:28

including Brazil and Cuba and North

Korea, the lower voting age does not

3:55:283:55:33

guarantee a better democracy.

Polling shows this position is

3:55:333:55:38

supported by the public, and I think

this is the really significant

3:55:383:55:42

point. Polling carried out by YouGov

in 2013 that found that 60% of

3:55:423:55:46

British adults are against reducing

the voting age to 16. While only 20%

3:55:463:55:54

support that idea, 16% neither

support nor a pause, and 4% don't

3:55:543:55:58

know. This majority hold among

people -- neither support nor

3:55:583:56:02

oppose. This holds for 18-24

-year-olds against reducing the

3:56:023:56:08

voting age. The survey conducted

back in 2003 was even starker, so it

3:56:083:56:17

may be that opinion has shifted a

bit. When they were asked to choose

3:56:173:56:21

between a minimum legal age of 16 or

18 years, 78% said the minimum

3:56:213:56:26

voting age should remain at 18,

while only 22% said it should be

3:56:263:56:31

lowered to 16. Of those who said the

voting age should remain at 18, 30

3:56:313:56:36

3% cited insufficient life

experience as being the primary

3:56:363:56:42

reason -- 33%. And others cited

immaturity. These are only opinions,

3:56:423:56:45

of course. I will give way.

3:56:453:56:54

Madame Deputy Speaker, let's put a

myth to bed in the chamber that

3:56:543:57:00

somehow 16 and 17-year-olds are

uninterested or uneducated in

3:57:003:57:02

politics. It is not that young

people are uninterested in politics,

3:57:023:57:07

it is that traditionally politics is

uninterest interested this young

3:57:073:57:12

people.

I have a son who from the age of six

3:57:123:57:17

was interested in politics but it

did not entitle him to a vote.

3:57:173:57:22

It is perfectly reasonable for 16

and 17-year-olds to be interested in

3:57:223:57:27

politics but not necessarily for it

to be wise to give them the vote.

3:57:273:57:33

Evidence taken by the poll committee

in 2014/2015 enforced the findings.

3:57:333:57:42

The committee received: Mixed

responses in the idea of extending

3:57:423:57:47

the franchise 2016 and 17-year-olds

with somewhat more supporting it

3:57:473:57:52

unchanged.

A strong theme was that young people

3:57:523:57:56

under the age of 18 lacked the

knowledge and life experience needed

3:57:563:58:01

to participate in the elections.

This question of maturity was

3:58:013:58:06

regarded by the Electoral Commission

when determining appropriate minimum

3:58:063:58:10

voting age. The lack of a single

definition of maturity, its multi-as

3:58:103:58:17

it Tated nature, difficulties

identity measurement and the varying

3:58:173:58:23

levels of maturity mean it is

challenging to grapple with, however

3:58:233:58:31

a paper from the University of

Oxford and Warwick sought to address

3:58:313:58:35

this point. It was found that the

data shows that young people are

3:58:353:58:40

less interested in politics than

older individuals.

3:58:403:58:44

They also know, I will finish the

point, they know less about politics

3:58:443:58:48

than older people and their views

are less consistent. Interest in

3:58:483:58:54

politics level of knowledge about

politics, consistency of views are

3:58:543:58:58

observed to increase with age. I

give way to the honourable lady.

3:58:583:59:03

On that point, I've been a teacher

for that entire time. It's been ten

3:59:033:59:08

years since that report was quoted.

Does he not agree that politics has

3:59:083:59:12

changed since then?

I'm not sure

they have. But it is for her side of

3:59:123:59:19

the argument to present the evidence

that things have changed. I think

3:59:193:59:23

anecdotal evidence is not enough.

The evidence we have, clearly

3:59:233:59:27

suggests that young people are less

politically mature than older

3:59:273:59:31

people, therefore the voting age

should not be lowered 2016. An

3:59:313:59:35

argument put forward in favour of

lowering the voting age is that it

3:59:353:59:42

increases the voter levels of

turnout and participation of the

3:59:423:59:45

young in politics. Declining rates

in UK elections was a reason that

3:59:453:59:52

the Electoral Commission launched

the review of the voting age in

3:59:523:59:57

2003. And it could be explained that

the belief that politicians don't

3:59:574:00:04

listen and engage with young

people's concerns, the encouraging

4:00:044:00:08

and supporting young people to

engage with politics is clearly of

4:00:084:00:12

great importance of the I don't for

a second seek to undermine the

4:00:124:00:18

concerns. However lowering the

voting age 2016 will not boost voter

4:00:184:00:23

turnout because young people have

turned out to vote in elections in

4:00:234:00:28

lower levels than older people.

Extending the franchise

4:00:284:00:34

2016-year-olds would therefore serve

to lower the overall level of voter

4:00:344:00:38

turnout.

Three points to my honourable

4:00:384:00:44

friend. The turnout for the 16 and

17-year-olds is zero. If it were 06%

4:00:444:00:51

if they got the vote there would be

an increase, not a deduction. If we

4:00:514:00:58

are registered to vote at 18, the

average voting age is 20. If 16, the

4:00:584:01:05

average voting age would be 18,

would he' Green Party that could be

4:01:054:01:09

a sensible thing to do?

There are

statistics and statistics, I will

4:01:094:01:13

put it that way in order not to be

unparliamentary. But the point I am

4:01:134:01:18

making is that the overall turnout

would be diluted by a lower turnout

4:01:184:01:22

that would be delivered by the

younger voters.

4:01:224:01:27

On levels, OK. Once more.

He seems to be making the argument

4:01:274:01:34

that the extension of the franchise

is linked to turnout. In local

4:01:344:01:40

Government elections turnout is

between 25 and 30%. So under his

4:01:404:01:46

argument, we should scrap the

elections for local government

4:01:464:01:49

entirely?

No. Not at all. But

defeating the argument, I think,

4:01:494:01:55

successfully, that lowering the

voting age increases voters turnout.

4:01:554:01:59

It will not.

On the #4re68s of engagement of the

4:01:594:02:05

young with politics, there are ways

to do this without lowering the

4:02:054:02:09

voting age. Far important had we

must improve citizenship education,

4:02:094:02:19

to ensure that pupils understand the

UK political system and how we

4:02:194:02:24

participate in the systems of

government, to understand the role

4:02:244:02:28

of the law and the judicial system,

to development in volunteering and

4:02:284:02:35

participating in the activities of

political parties is very much open

4:02:354:02:39

to people below the voting age. And

to ensure that they are equipped

4:02:394:02:43

with the skills to think and debate

political questions. Initiatives

4:02:434:02:48

like our youth Parliament, founded

by the Conservative MP for Faversham

4:02:484:02:57

and Kent, to give young people a

voice have an important role to play

4:02:574:03:02

in increasing the participation of

young people in politics. According

4:03:024:03:06

to youth Parliament UK's website,

over 1 million young people have

4:03:064:03:11

voted in UK youth Parliament

elections in two years. This is a

4:03:114:03:14

success story. The youth Parliament

gives the young in the UK an

4:03:144:03:19

opportunity to be involved in the

democratic process and empowers them

4:03:194:03:25

to take positive action in their

local communities to tackle issues

4:03:254:03:29

of concern.

Madame Deputy Speaker, I feel

4:03:294:03:37

transposed, to about 100 years ago

when the people that resisted the

4:03:374:03:41

women's vote were coming out with

the same arguments of I maturity,

4:03:414:03:49

disinterest, that women would not

know that they were talking about.

4:03:494:03:53

Will you agree, that there are those

who are persistently making the case

4:03:534:03:59

for extending the franchise to women

that were then right, and this is a

4:03:594:04:06

similar argument.

. I disagree. It is a different

4:04:064:04:12

argument and in fact, members of my

family and members of everybody's

4:04:124:04:17

families will have been involved in

the times in pursuing the franchise

4:04:174:04:22

for women and we celebrate the fact

we have more women in Parliament

4:04:224:04:25

than ever. And she is having a go at

possibly the one Conservative MP who

4:04:254:04:30

thinks we will have to take

legislative action in order to get

4:04:304:04:36

equality, 50/50 in this House, men

and women. I really belief that will

4:04:364:04:40

happen one day. And I hope that she

will agree that will be necessary.

4:04:404:04:44

I will not get drawn.

A recent initiative is the national

4:04:444:04:53

citizens' service, which aims to

promote social cohesion, social

4:04:534:04:58

mobility and social engagement by

running an experience for 15 to

4:04:584:05:02

17-year-olds.

Another argument put forward in

4:05:024:05:08

favour of lowering the voting age is

that young people aged 16 to 17 can

4:05:084:05:14

drive, join the Armed Forces, marry

but cannot vote. The facts are half

4:05:144:05:18

truths. People can drive from 17,

not 16, although they can join the

4:05:184:05:25

Armed Forces and marry at 16, it is

with the parents' consent and in the

4:05:254:05:33

Armed Services cannot be deployed to

front line combat. And there are a

4:05:334:05:38

great many other things that they

cannot do, for example, to bye

4:05:384:05:44

alcohol and cigarettes, or is the

other side arguing that they should

4:05:444:05:47

be allowed to do so? They are not

treated as an adult in law, if

4:05:474:05:55

committing a crime they are dealt

with by youth courts and then

4:05:554:06:04

sentenced to young adult prisons.

Jury service, young people

4:06:044:06:11

overwhelmingly reject the notion of

sitting in judgment. Does he agree

4:06:114:06:15

that lowering the vote age would

create a bizarre discrepancy in this

4:06:154:06:21

matter?

I do. All the examples make

it clear that society does not view

4:06:214:06:30

16-year-olds as full adults and

denying the right to vote is

4:06:304:06:36

therefore not an injustice akick to

denying the rights of women to vote,

4:06:364:06:40

that is absurd but it is a Kens of

the level of maturity.

4:06:404:06:50

The age at which we reach maturity

and come of age is a process. There

4:06:504:06:55

are a range of things as a society

that we say you must be 18 to do.

4:06:554:07:02

Trivial things like watching an 18

film at the cinema. So we are saying

4:07:024:07:07

that you should be able to now

choose your representative to the

4:07:074:07:13

country but can't watch 50 Shades of

Grey at the local cinema?

There is

4:07:134:07:20

another argument. One of the

arguments put forward by Vote 16 is

4:07:204:07:26

that there is no taxation without

representation. This is important.

4:07:264:07:33

Upon which an entire continent was

liberated from British tyranny. But

4:07:334:07:37

I point out that the number of 16

and 17-year-olds pay being income

4:07:374:07:41

tax in the UK is small and most are

students. Therefore, those that are

4:07:414:07:48

working are earning small sums in

weekend or holiday jobs and not over

4:07:484:07:53

the income tax threshold. The vast

majority of 16 and 17-year-olds are

4:07:534:08:01

dependant financially on their

parents or guardians.

4:08:014:08:06

I think that I could be right, and

this is important, the taxation,

4:08:064:08:13

point, why I support it, and why I

was frustrated that the gentlemen

4:08:134:08:19

was unwilling to take this into

position, once you contribute to the

4:08:194:08:27

national insurance, you are then

more widely able to take into

4:08:274:08:32

consideration the wider point of

view.

4:08:324:08:40

And there is no inherent

relationship between driving,

4:08:404:08:44

voting, bying alcohol, and they are

not comparable. There is no reason

4:08:444:08:49

why someone acquires the right to

participate in all of the different

4:08:494:08:53

activities at the same age, surely

the important question is what is

4:08:534:08:57

the age at which people acquire the

right or duty concerned? So it would

4:08:574:09:02

be a great mistake to lower the

voting age 2016. Most 16 and

4:09:024:09:07

17-year-olds don't have the level of

political knowledge or maturity...

4:09:074:09:17

They also, I will give way to the

honourable lady.

4:09:174:09:22

I am grateful. He was praising the

youth councils that were voting and

4:09:224:09:28

had their own private vote and at

least they did not affect the adult

4:09:284:09:33

vote but in that vote they voted

almost unanimously for votes at 16.

4:09:334:09:40

1 million young people. It does feel

that the opposite side is

4:09:404:09:44

patronising young people. And for

seven years of austerity, young

4:09:444:09:50

people have had things taken away

from them. This is a chance for us

4:09:504:09:53

to give them hope and to empower

them.

4:09:534:09:58

Well the interesting thing about

young people, when they become

4:09:584:10:02

older, when they become 18 to

24-year-olds or 25 to 35-year-olds

4:10:024:10:07

they change their mind on this

question as to whether the young

4:10:074:10:11

should be allowed to vote. Older

voters are overwhelmingly against

4:10:114:10:16

giving younger people the vote.

I think that puts that matter to

4:10:164:10:22

bed. I repeat the point I made

earlier... Whatever the particular

4:10:224:10:31

political agenda may be of 16 and

17-year-olds, that does not

4:10:314:10:36

necessarily entitle them to the

privilege of the vote.

4:10:364:10:43

The, what is more, lowering the

voting age 2016 puts the UK out of

4:10:434:10:48

line with the precision in almost

all other established democracies in

4:10:484:10:52

the world as well as not being

supported by the public.

4:10:524:10:55

. The opposition seems rattled by

that argument. The arguments put

4:10:554:11:08

forward in favouring lowering the

age are weak and confused. No

4:11:084:11:12

relationship between the various

voting age related rights. Voting

4:11:124:11:16

age is not the key factor to

interest young people in politics.

4:11:164:11:26

We should expand the youth

Parliament. The evidence is when the

4:11:264:11:30

present generation of 16 and

17-year-olds become adults a

4:11:304:11:34

majority of them will support

keeping the voting age as it is.

4:11:344:11:38

Thank you.

4:11:384:11:46

In an Madame

4:11:464:11:46

it is a delay to set out our

position, given that in the gallery

4:11:524:11:56

we have so many young people

watching over our democracy. I just

4:11:564:11:59

worry about the message we may be

sending them with the way some

4:11:594:12:05

members have been behaving in the

chamber today. This is an

4:12:054:12:09

opportunity to extend the franchise

to one and a half million young

4:12:094:12:11

people whose decisions taken in this

House affect them and deserve a

4:12:114:12:20

place in our democracy. We will be

voting to extend this franchise

4:12:204:12:23

because we believe young people

should have a say over their future,

4:12:234:12:25

but this bill is not just about

that. It is also about education

4:12:254:12:31

because we believe an educated

electorate can make informed choices

4:12:314:12:35

and who could argue with that? If

history has taught us anything, I

4:12:354:12:40

shall just beginning, our past is

littered with bold actions, proud

4:12:404:12:44

speeches and even lives left to win

and defend the right to vote, so as

4:12:444:12:48

we celebrate 100 years of women's

suffrage, we have an opportunity to

4:12:484:12:52

reflect on how far we have, the

country, and the extent that

4:12:524:12:56

franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds,

because I believe the case has never

4:12:564:13:01

been stronger as within our UK now

16 and

4:13:014:13:14

17-year-olds do have a vote in local

elections in Scotland, but the

4:13:234:13:26

16-year-old who might vote in a

local election this year would then

4:13:264:13:28

be subsequently denied a vote in a

general election this year, and that

4:13:284:13:31

cannot be right. I will give way.

I

am grateful to her for giving way

4:13:314:13:34

and she is making a powerful case.

Which he agree with me this is a

4:13:344:13:37

vital opportunity to amend our

democratic system where we are

4:13:374:13:39

currently letting down the people

who will live the longest, with many

4:13:394:13:41

of our decisions absolutely

undermining their futures?

I agree

4:13:414:13:43

with the honourable lady and she

isn't it part of a coalition of five

4:13:434:13:46

parties on the opposition benches

who agree the time has come for

4:13:464:13:48

votes for 16 and 17-year-olds. The

experience in Scotland... I will

4:13:484:13:50

give way.

I thank her for giving

way. Does she not see the inherent

4:13:504:13:53

contradiction in the bill before us?

In part one it says 16 and

4:13:534:13:56

17-year-olds ready to vote, but in

part two it implies because they are

4:13:564:14:00

in full-time education they need to

be taught about citizenship and

4:14:004:14:03

Constitution and are actually not

ready to vote.

I don't believe there

4:14:034:14:07

is any contradiction in using the

opportunity to educate young people

4:14:074:14:13

and the next generation about

politics. If you're looking for any

4:14:134:14:16

contradiction it might be that

members opposite on the benches are

4:14:164:14:20

arguing against boats for 16 and

17-year-olds might yet allowing

4:14:204:14:24

16-year-olds to join the

Conservative Party and potentially

4:14:244:14:27

vote in the next leadership election

for the next Prime Minister of the

4:14:274:14:31

country, yet not for their local MP.

We saw in the Scottish referendum

4:14:314:14:39

75% of 16 and 17-year-olds turning

out to vote, and with the Welsh

4:14:394:14:44

Labour Government looking to extend

the franchise to young people they

4:14:444:14:46

are, we will soon be in this

ridiculous position where a

4:14:464:14:49

16-year-old living in Wales or

Scotland can be trusted to vote in

4:14:494:14:52

their local elections, but not in a

general election. It is vital we

4:14:524:14:56

have equal rights across the United

Kingdom, not only in referenda but

4:14:564:15:01

in devolved assemblies and local

Government. Votes for 16 is clearly

4:15:014:15:04

a priority for young people, as we

have heard from the youth Council.

4:15:044:15:09

Now is the time to support this as a

House. Thank you.

Madame Deputy

4:15:094:15:17

Speaker, I am grateful to you on and

it is a pleasure to follow

4:15:174:15:22

particularly the evidence pack

speech of my honourable friend. I

4:15:224:15:28

have come here today to have a

serious debate about what I think is

4:15:284:15:32

a complex and difficult issue we do

have to examine from time to time,

4:15:324:15:35

but I'm afraid I was disappointed by

there, what's the word, bullish

4:15:354:15:40

approach by the proposer of the

bill, who sought to create division

4:15:404:15:45

in this House rather than to be

persuasive -- approach. I was

4:15:454:15:49

somewhat over the last few years who

could possibly have been persuaded,

4:15:494:15:52

but certainly not today, so I am

speaking in opposition to the debate

4:15:524:15:56

because I think it kicks off process

about which we should be concerned.

4:15:564:16:00

Broadly, as far as I can see, the

bill confuses the complex issue of

4:16:004:16:07

capacity. What young people should

be able to do, what they are capable

4:16:074:16:12

of doing, and what we should allow

them to do, and this is a

4:16:124:16:16

complicated and difficult area in

which a number of us struggled in

4:16:164:16:22

public policy over the last two

decades and the problem with this

4:16:224:16:25

bill and proposal is that it broadly

worked against the thrust of public

4:16:254:16:29

policy towards young people that has

happened in the last two decades. So

4:16:294:16:34

if you look for instance at

gambling, there has been a general

4:16:344:16:41

acceptance that gambling in early

age is a bad thing for young people

4:16:414:16:44

to do. It is a recognition that

there are two stages of brain

4:16:444:16:50

development for young people, the

first prior to six when the brain is

4:16:504:16:55

broadly form, 95% of it, but then in

adolescence when enormous changes

4:16:554:16:59

take place, and when we have to take

extreme care about how young people

4:16:594:17:04

develop. The science is with us on

this, that this is a period when the

4:17:044:17:09

operation of the brain, the practice

of people, habits, or form, so it is

4:17:094:17:13

important we look at that, and it

was decided some years ago that

4:17:134:17:17

forbidding those people, aged under

18, from gambling, was desirable in

4:17:174:17:23

order to inculcate and educate them

and get their brains functioning in

4:17:234:17:26

a way that meant they were less

likely to do it in older age, and of

4:17:264:17:29

course what this bill would do is

create the ridiculous situation

4:17:294:17:32

where a young person would be able

to vote, but not place a wager on

4:17:324:17:36

the outcome of the action in which

they were voting, which seems

4:17:364:17:40

extraordinary to me. In a moment, in

a moment. There are all manner of

4:17:404:17:45

areas where this would be the case,

and for those of us who have worked

4:17:454:17:49

closely with some of the charities

concerned in this area, for example

4:17:494:17:55

the Children's Society, to identify

16 and 17-year-olds is a

4:17:554:17:59

particularly vulnerable group

requiring protection, this is

4:17:594:18:02

concerned. I will give way.

My

honourable friend has used a very

4:18:024:18:06

good example. Does he agree with me

that other examples are for instance

4:18:064:18:10

consuming and alcohol? We increased

the age where you could purchase

4:18:104:18:17

cigarettes. All those things are

very important and have been proven

4:18:174:18:22

as beneficiaries to people's health.

The honourable lady makes a very

4:18:224:18:28

strong point. Yes, sir.

I thank the

honourable member for giving way. Is

4:18:284:18:36

the honourable member seriously

suggesting voting at 16 or 17 is

4:18:364:18:40

somehow bad for your health other

than the Tory Party?

Well, I think

4:18:404:18:48

the honourable gentleman knows that

is exactly what I am not saying, but

4:18:484:18:51

what I am saying is and this is, to

be honest with you, this is the main

4:18:514:18:56

thrust of my concern about this

particular measure. You are kicking

4:18:564:19:00

off an inevitable process that may

expose people who are 16 and 17,

4:19:004:19:05

young people, the harm. I cannot

see...

4:19:054:19:09

LAUGHTER

I cannot see how you can give

4:19:094:19:14

someone the vote at 16 and then deny

them all the other capabilities and

4:19:144:19:19

abilities of adult hood. Yes.

I am

very grateful to my honourable

4:19:194:19:25

friend for giving way. Did he, like

me, see the reported comments, and

4:19:254:19:29

I'm sure the honourable gentleman

can tell us if they are not true, on

4:19:294:19:34

where the proposer of the bill has

gone? He seems to have disappeared

4:19:344:19:37

from his own debate. It was

reported, Madame Deputy Speaker,

4:19:374:19:46

that when he was trying to explain

away the comments of his then

4:19:464:19:50

honourable friend the member for

Sheffield Hallam, he said he was

4:19:504:19:53

young and silly, he was too immature

to know any better, when he was in

4:19:534:19:57

his 20! -- 20s! And this is the man

now proposing a bill to reduce the

4:19:574:20:03

voting age to 16. Wouldn't he see

some inconsistencies somewhere in

4:20:034:20:08

that approach?

The honourable

gentleman rightly puts his finger on

4:20:084:20:11

the broad point I am trying to make,

which is that this bill injects yet

4:20:114:20:16

more inconsistency into what is

already a confusing area of public

4:20:164:20:21

policy. And one where a number of

governments have struggled and where

4:20:214:20:26

it has been opened up, exposing

people to harm, developmental

4:20:264:20:31

experiences which may not be in

their best interests, this is part

4:20:314:20:34

of the problem, and I would have

more respect for the bill and the

4:20:344:20:38

honourable gentleman if he brought

aboard and tried to bring some

4:20:384:20:42

regularity and logic and evidence to

this, rather than just assertion and

4:20:424:20:47

emotion.

Thank you, Madame Deputy

Speaker. I thank my very good friend

4:20:474:20:50

for allowing me to intervene. I have

commanded an infantry battalion

4:20:504:20:55

going on operations. I have had

soldiers plead with me to allow them

4:20:554:21:01

to come. They were 17 years and

three quarters in age. And I had to

4:21:014:21:08

turn them down, because the law

said, no one under 18 should go to

4:21:084:21:13

war. I agree with that. I don't

agree with 16-year-olds being able

4:21:134:21:18

to send anyone over 18 to war but

not go themselves.

The Right

4:21:184:21:30

Honourable and gallant gentleman

makes a very strong point, and we

4:21:304:21:32

should think - we have to think

carefully in this house about the

4:21:324:21:39

consequences of what might seem like

relatively small editor --

4:21:394:21:46

legislative changes, and what may

come. It would be the case, I cannot

4:21:464:21:51

see how you can give the vote to a

16-year-old and deny them the

4:21:514:21:54

ability to buy a knife, the ability

to drink alcohol, buy cigarettes, by

4:21:544:22:01

fireworks, watch Canadian film,

access pornography, allow them to

4:22:014:22:04

leave school if they choose, get a

tattoo -- watch an 18 film. Get a

4:22:044:22:13

mortgage, get tenancy, they can't do

jury service, be a magistrate, and

4:22:134:22:17

critically and possibly this is the

most important point, how can you

4:22:174:22:21

give somebody a vote in an election

in which they are not themselves

4:22:214:22:24

able to stand as a Member of

Parliament?

I thank my honourable

4:22:244:22:31

friend for giving way. Does he agree

with me that perhaps it is time that

4:22:314:22:34

we should consider that, as he knows

I am a passionate advocate for no

4:22:344:22:40

taxation without representation,

that those under 18 who we wish to

4:22:404:22:43

seek staying in education or

training and that is part of the

4:22:434:22:46

developmental policy talks about,

that we should actually stop

4:22:464:22:49

taxation for those under 18 in that

whole framework?

I completely agree

4:22:494:22:55

with her, and as I said repeatedly,

in my view, this House needs to look

4:22:554:23:00

at the issue in a much wider context

and look at it much more consistency

4:23:004:23:07

-- consistently. Members have jumped

up and down in this place and I have

4:23:074:23:10

heard them time and time again,

talking about greater protection for

4:23:104:23:13

16 and 17-year-olds, and the problem

with extending the franchise to them

4:23:134:23:17

is I just don't think you could

maintain the idea that they are

4:23:174:23:20

somehow a second-class citizen,

having made them a first-class

4:23:204:23:23

citizen in terms of voting. The

latest one we have is around the

4:23:234:23:26

rise of e-cigarettes, so this House

decided in its wisdom that people

4:23:264:23:34

under 18 could not buy e-cigarettes,

they are not allowed vape, and more

4:23:344:23:38

than that, you are not allowed to

use and e-cigarette or smoke and are

4:23:384:23:42

with somebody who is 16 or 17

because it is bad for their health.

4:23:424:23:46

I just don't see how logical you can

maintain that position. In a moment.

4:23:464:23:49

You can give somebody the vote, and

they may be able to vote for

4:23:494:23:53

somebody who will campaign and enact

legislation that will bring those

4:23:534:23:57

harmful things to bear upon them,

and this is the fundamental

4:23:574:24:02

inconsistency... A number of members

have spoken about gradations of

4:24:024:24:05

development and it is certainly true

that different people develop at

4:24:054:24:08

different times. And we all know, as

I said, that the brain particularly

4:24:084:24:14

developed strongly during

adolescence. It starts at the back,

4:24:144:24:16

moves to the front, and those of you

medically minded will know that the

4:24:164:24:19

science proves this. Our system of

capacity has evolved over the years

4:24:194:24:26

to recognise that, so different

capacities at different ages is

4:24:264:24:29

designed to recognise that. I think

that is illogical, makes no sense to

4:24:294:24:34

me, and I welcome the idea we should

decide on online but level

4:24:344:24:38

everything up to it, and for me that

age is 18. As the right honourable

4:24:384:24:45

member said, 18 is generally

accepted across the world and I

4:24:454:24:48

think we should do the same.

He has

made a very good speech and I have

4:24:484:24:51

to say that all reasonableness and

balance is in big contrast with the

4:24:514:24:54

beginning, but if you level

everything that would include the

4:24:544:24:59

age of consent, of course, with all

its indications, but is he also

4:24:594:25:03

saying that we should remove, say,

national insurance payments from

4:25:034:25:07

under 18, and that if we keep them

they must have a say? Is that what

4:25:074:25:13

he is saying?

No, I think

underratings should not participate

4:25:134:25:17

in the taxation system at all,

Norma. Many of them are lower paid

4:25:174:25:21

and gold. It is a very small number

who actually pay tax -- at all, no.

4:25:214:25:26

I think because they are low paid

they shouldn't necessarily pay tax

4:25:264:25:30

as other people do, but the current

system we have is very confusing. It

4:25:304:25:34

gives the indication that at some

stages they are adults, and that

4:25:344:25:40

some they and that may be a

reflection of reality, and some of

4:25:404:25:45

you who have lived with the teenager

will know, at time to time they

4:25:454:25:48

appear mature, then they will be a

logical, emotional, and do

4:25:484:25:53

something, and that recognises the

developmental process they are going

4:25:534:25:55

through. I will give way.

I am

grateful to him for giving way. I

4:25:554:25:59

wonder if he's actually listening to

some of the argument he is making,

4:25:594:26:02

because to be honest, he said of the

argument are sounding increasingly

4:26:024:26:07

desperate, and it really did get an

idea, when we just heard the member

4:26:074:26:12

over the saying you shouldn't have

16-year-olds sending people to fight

4:26:124:26:15

when they can't fight themselves, so

on that same principle we shouldn't

4:26:154:26:19

have over 65s having the vote either

because they will not go out and

4:26:194:26:23

fight to stop could he please be a

little more reasonable?

I'm not

4:26:234:26:29

desperate, particularly. I'm just

trying to illustrate to the House

4:26:294:26:32

that we need to take care about the

process we are kicking off, that if

4:26:324:26:39

we allowed 16 and 17-year-olds to

have the vote, it becomes harder,

4:26:394:26:44

much harder, to place restrictions

on what they are able to do, what

4:26:444:26:48

people can expose them to, and what

their capacity is.

4:26:484:26:56

He is making a logical speech. It is

shame he is not afforded the

4:26:564:27:02

courtesy of a fair hearing but did

he read the article, where it was

4:27:024:27:09

spotted, the contradictions from the

party opposite who raced the age

4:27:094:27:13

limit from 16 to 18 for all sorts of

things, some sensible, some less so,

4:27:134:27:21

some peculiar... ? It was a

remarkable article. But it points to

4:27:214:27:29

the issue of policy confusion. There

are members on that side of the

4:27:294:27:33

House, shouting at me today about

lowering the age of consent, sorry,

4:27:334:27:40

the franchise 2016 but will have

voted to stop these very people

4:27:404:27:45

lying on sunbeds. That's exactly

right. This is the problem at the

4:27:454:27:50

crux: It is not as simple as

extending the franchise. There is a

4:27:504:27:57

wider policy framework to consider.

. You cannot extend the Franchise

4:27:574:28:05

and deny all of the bubbles of

adulthood to people who you have

4:28:054:28:11

allowed the vote when they are 16

and 17.

4:28:114:28:14

. I rise as an honorary present of

the British youth council, a former

4:28:144:28:22

President of NUS and a mill ennial.

There is a desperate attempt to stop

4:28:224:28:27

people moving to a vote on this

motion.

4:28:274:28:30

I want to nail the fallacy that

young people aged 16 and 17 don't

4:28:304:28:35

have the maturity to vote. We have

heard about the things that 16 and

4:28:354:28:39

17-year-olds can do. We have heard

voting compared with gambling, drugs

4:28:394:28:45

and alcohol. Now I know it is

customary for the members to gamble

4:28:454:28:49

with the country's future when they

put bills forward, in fact,

4:28:494:28:55

sometimes people look at government

policies and wonder if people have

4:28:554:28:59

been taking drugs when producing

them! I know for certain...

A point

4:28:594:29:05

of order Mr Malt house.

I wanted your advice if it is in

4:29:054:29:13

order for the honourable gentlemen

to misrepresent my speech.

4:29:134:29:18

He said I was come pairing granting

the vote 2016 and 17-year-olds with

4:29:184:29:23

gambling, I absolutely was not. No.

I was merely saying what, what I was

4:29:234:29:30

saying, he was obviously not

listening, he is my select committee

4:29:304:29:36

colleague, he normally listening to

what I say but what I was saying

4:29:364:29:42

was, if you allow... I have the

gives of the honourable gentleman's

4:29:424:29:51

point it is not a point of order, it

is a point of debate. The honourable

4:29:514:29:57

gentleman is enter pretting when the

honourable gentleman said. There is

4:29:574:30:03

disagreement between the honourable

gentleman and honourable gentleman,

4:30:034:30:07

it is what I expect in a debate of

this kind. I hope that the

4:30:074:30:14

honourable gentleman will redress

what he said. But it is there in

4:30:144:30:18

Hansard for everyone to read.

In general terms I said people

4:30:184:30:24

compared the risk of voting at 16

and 17 to gambling, drugs and

4:30:244:30:28

alcohol. Ministers may well gamble

with the country's future when

4:30:284:30:32

passing votes, when looking at the

quality of judgments, people wonder

4:30:324:30:37

if they have been smoking something,

and occasionally, honourable and

4:30:374:30:43

Right Honourable members are in the

bar before casting votes but however

4:30:434:30:50

dangerous voting can be from time to

time, I hope that it is not a risk

4:30:504:30:55

to the public health in a way that

has been described.

4:30:554:31:00

There was a tweet: Hope Parliament

passes a vote at 16. I was against

4:31:004:31:03

it at 16 on the grounds that half of

the people I knew were idiots but

4:31:034:31:10

age doesn't change that! A perfectly

reasonable point and the final thing

4:31:104:31:16

I wish to say, is this turnout

fallacy, no-one is suggesting or

4:31:164:31:20

reasonably suggesting that votes at

16 and 17 in and ofsets increases

4:31:204:31:25

turnout and participation in our

democracy but it does improve

4:31:254:31:29

turnout in one very important way,

it's the difference not whether 16

4:31:294:31:35

and 17-year-olds wild turn out and

vote for us but whether we as

4:31:354:31:40

Members of Parliament will finally

begin to turn out and vote for them,

4:31:404:31:45

their interests, their education,

their rights to access to housing

4:31:454:31:50

and to close the disgraceful gap in

power, wealth and opportunity

4:31:504:31:56

between the oldest and the youngest.

That is what we are debating today.

4:31:564:32:02

I hope that voting at 16 finally has

its moment to pass into law.

4:32:024:32:07

Now, I am delighted that we are

having a robust debate about

4:32:074:32:12

democracy. May I say, though, to the

honourable member for Weston Royton,

4:32:124:32:18

you caused me to change my speech. I

was going to talk to the House about

4:32:184:32:24

Roman democracy and the influence of

the Napoleonic code, instead... I

4:32:244:32:31

find it disappointing he spent 13

minutes speaking nonsense and

4:32:314:32:37

partisan speechifying rather than

dealing with the substance of the

4:32:374:32:40

argument! It is a great shame that

young people, who are watching this,

4:32:404:32:46

in the public gallery, and on

television, have had to see,

4:32:464:32:51

frankly, the House, not at its best.

Not as it was in the debate earlier,

4:32:514:32:56

I believe he was not in, where there

was a feeling on consensus on the

4:32:564:33:01

need to improve mental health and

the treatment of mentally ill people

4:33:014:33:08

in mental units, yesterday another

debate, where there was a consensual

4:33:084:33:12

tone on the debate, the issue of

child refugees, instead he has

4:33:124:33:19

chosen to hi-jack the representation

of the young in this country with a

4:33:194:33:23

partisan speech. That is not good

politics. And may I say I have the

4:33:234:33:27

pleasure of two constituents who

work in a university in my county

4:33:274:33:31

who teach politics to young people.

I would be interested to hear their

4:33:314:33:36

views on how they feel this debate

has gone today.

4:33:364:33:40

More than the partisan nature of it,

would my honourable friend agree

4:33:404:33:46

with me I didn't hear the honourable

gentleman proposing the bill making

4:33:464:33:52

a substantive argument for changing

the law. That is what most

4:33:524:33:59

disappointed me, as well as my

honourable friend?

Absolutely. I

4:33:594:34:05

gave up any after 13 minutes but I

now try to move on to a point of

4:34:054:34:11

what I hope is consensus, the

honourable gentleman is welcome to

4:34:114:34:15

intervene if he wishes about trying

to find a point of consensus, he is

4:34:154:34:22

shaking his head - we all must

encourage young people, not just 16

4:34:224:34:28

and 17-year-olds but 18-year-olds,

20-year-olds, 35-year-olds, we must

4:34:284:34:32

encourage young people to take an

interest in our politics. There are

4:34:324:34:36

many ways in which we can do this. I

think one of the best, in a moment,

4:34:364:34:41

thank you, one of the best way, the

best parts of this privilege, this

4:34:414:34:48

role, is to invite schoolchildren

and young people into this

4:34:484:34:52

Parliament. When they see this

chamber, when they see the magic of

4:34:524:34:59

this building, when they see people

having a good, frank debate, it

4:34:594:35:04

brings the politics alive in a way

that I wish we could reach out to

4:35:044:35:08

the whole population. But the other

thing, in a moment, thank you but

4:35:084:35:13

the other thing is visiting schools.

I made a promise in the 2015

4:35:134:35:20

campaign to visit all 54 schools in

my constituency, by the time of the

4:35:204:35:25

next election. That was 2015, sadly,

the election came sooner than I was

4:35:254:35:33

hoping but I have reiterated the

promise I think we should as

4:35:334:35:38

representatives reach out to people

in our constituencies and discuss

4:35:384:35:44

their issues, answer their questions

and involve them in that way. Now, I

4:35:444:35:47

was delighted a couple of weeks ago

to welcome the St Michael's Church

4:35:474:35:54

of England primary school, where we

had seven, eight, nine-year-olds in

4:35:544:35:58

Parliament. And soon another school

is coming to visit. I will send them

4:35:584:36:03

coppice of Hansard so that they can

see the important role that they

4:36:034:36:07

play in this House as far as I'm

concerned. But 18 is the age at

4:36:074:36:13

which, civilic, the rights and the

is that we enjoy, that is the age

4:36:134:36:18

that they fall on our shoulders. At

16, yes, you can get married but

4:36:184:36:25

with the permission of your parents

and the armed force but with the

4:36:254:36:29

permission of your parents. You

cannot even leave school. The law

4:36:294:36:33

requires you to stay in education or

training. At 16, you cannot buy a

4:36:334:36:39

house, knife, cigarette, alcohol,

nor fireworks, nor place a bet...

4:36:394:36:44

Use a sunbed a nor can adults smoke

in a car in which you are present,

4:36:444:36:56

that is not because gnawed it is

because we as a legislative body

4:36:564:37:01

have said that people under the age

of 18 need extra protections.

4:37:014:37:06

I agree with the honourable lady

when she says we must seek

4:37:064:37:13

imaginative ways of involving the

young in politics. Does she agree

4:37:134:37:17

that the contributions seen from the

16 and the 17-year-olds in the

4:37:174:37:22

Scottish referendum were amongst the

most informed, enthusiastic and

4:37:224:37:26

incisive and brought a new spirit

and young people into politics is

4:37:264:37:29

that not what we should be seeking

to do?

I'm delighted that the

4:37:294:37:35

honourable lady raced that, that is

the final point of the speech. I

4:37:354:37:39

will run up to that. I have the

answer to it. At 18, at 18, most

4:37:394:37:50

importantly, civilic rights, the

right to vote comes civic

4:37:504:37:54

responsibility. At 18 for the first

time you can sit on a jury. You can

4:37:544:37:59

sit in judgment on your peers. What

does that mean? It means an

4:37:594:38:06

18-year-old can be called up to the

Old Bailey down the river and sit in

4:38:064:38:10

judgment on a teenage peer accused

of murder, now, when we say, when we

4:38:104:38:17

talk about 16-year-olds having a

right and so on, how on earth can we

4:38:174:38:21

give them the privilege of voting in

our democracy and it is a privilege,

4:38:214:38:28

and one in which I think we should

be tougher with regards to the

4:38:284:38:33

requirements to vote, how can we say

that you have that right yet not the

4:38:334:38:38

responsibility of sitting on a jury?

Could I on the point she is making,

4:38:384:38:44

when the United Nations drew up the

UN convention on the rights of the

4:38:444:38:49

child, which almost every country in

the world, has signed up, other than

4:38:494:38:53

the United States, there was a

debate on child protection and when

4:38:534:38:58

you become an adult, every country

in the entire world you cans with

4:38:584:39:03

very different cultures came to the

conclusion that 18 was the right age

4:39:034:39:08

for a child to become an adult. That

was then and it was always concluded

4:39:084:39:15

that was is appropriate age that you

turn into an adult.

4:39:154:39:20

I completely agree with my

honourable friend it goes to the

4:39:204:39:24

point about protecting. I am not

saying that 16-year-olds are not

4:39:244:39:33

capable of forming judgments but I

promised on that point he is exactly

4:39:334:39:39

right it is a the grade of

protections moving away until we

4:39:394:39:44

reach the age of 18.

I am inclined to agree with her

4:39:444:39:51

model of civilic rights and where

they should be merged. At the age of

4:39:514:39:59

17 you may be suggesting that those

are disenfranchised because they no

4:39:594:40:08

longer have those civic rights?

I'm

sorry, I did not hear that point.

4:40:084:40:14

Order. This is not acceptable, if

the person on the floor cannot hear

4:40:144:40:20

the intervention from the person on

the other side of the House, then

4:40:204:40:23

there is something wrong in the

chamber, people must be quiet to

4:40:234:40:27

debate properly.

Would the honourable gentleman like

4:40:274:40:33

to re-make his intervention? I think

that at the age of 17 when you can

4:40:334:40:37

no longer serve on a jury, I am

suggesting that the honourable laid

4:40:374:40:42

might want to reduce the argument?

Sorry, I thought you said 17? It

4:40:424:40:52

would be a bold politicians who

wants to take those rights away from

4:40:524:41:06

someone who is 70, so sorry, I

thought you said 17.

4:41:064:41:11

By the age of 70 you will have had

more than 50 years' worth of being

4:41:114:41:20

available for civic duty and you are

discharged...

4:41:204:41:23

INAUDIBLE

You don't lose rights, you have had

4:41:234:41:27

more than 50 years' worth of civic

responsibility. I think that is the

4:41:274:41:32

difference between 16 and

17-year-olds and people aged over

4:41:324:41:35

70. The point has been made about

taxation, my honourable friend for

4:41:354:41:43

South Suffolk made a point about

national insurance. If you are aged

4:41:434:41:47

16 you can pay national insurance.

At the risk of worrying the

4:41:474:41:52

Chancellor in the run-up to the

Budget, I can see merit if people

4:41:524:41:57

don't have the society at 18, then

that element should be taken away

4:41:574:42:02

from them. I appreciate that merit.

But I tell you the evidence that I

4:42:024:42:08

use to support that, which is that

16 and 17-year-olds are exempted

4:42:084:42:13

from paying Council Tax. So it seems

there is already a precedent for

4:42:134:42:20

extending that further. The final

point to answer the honourable lady

4:42:204:42:25

who made the intervention earlier, I

do not see how we can say that

4:42:254:42:31

someone can vote to elect their

representative in this place and yet

4:42:314:42:36

not have the privilege open to them

of standing for Parliament in this

4:42:364:42:41

place. It would be like saying you

cannot vote for yourself. You may

4:42:414:42:50

have been born and bred in your

constituency, and spent your life

4:42:504:42:54

there but you can't stand in

Parliament to represent that

4:42:544:42:58

constituency.

4:42:584:43:02

That is the first complement other

day and I appreciate it. People who

4:43:024:43:06

have been bankrupt are not allowed

to stand for this place. Does she

4:43:064:43:10

think they should have the boots

stripped from them as well?

Crikey.

4:43:104:43:15

-- does she think they should have

this vote stripped from them?

4:43:154:43:20

Turning the other way, are we really

comparing 16 and 17-year-olds to

4:43:204:43:25

bankrupt? No. Again, bankruptcy is a

form of civic responsibility, again,

4:43:254:43:31

so it is right taken away from you,

to become a director of a company

4:43:314:43:37

and so on, because of your behaviour

-- bankruptcy, and it is a form. I'm

4:43:374:43:42

not saying 16 and 17-year-olds don't

deserve the right to vote because of

4:43:424:43:46

their behaviour, but I'm saying it

is not consistent with this civic

4:43:464:43:49

responsibilities that meet the right

to vote, that is my argument. I

4:43:494:43:54

mean, this is a very wide ranging

debate, Madame Deputy Speaker. On

4:43:544:43:58

this side. That's unfair, sorry. But

I hope that if nothing else young

4:43:584:44:07

people watching this are seeing the

intricacies of the arguments between

4:44:074:44:11

the two schools of thought, and I

hope very much that we will continue

4:44:114:44:17

to debate this in the years ahead,

but I have to say, as a word of

4:44:174:44:22

advice to the honourable member for

Golden West, if he wants to persuade

4:44:224:44:27

members of this House as the --

Oldham West. As to the strength of

4:44:274:44:32

his arguments, then he really must

do it better next time.

Thank you,

4:44:324:44:41

Madame Deputy Speaker. I am honoured

to speak in this debate because when

4:44:414:44:43

I was elected in June it was not my

first time in this place. I was here

4:44:434:44:49

in 2009 during the UK youth

Parliament youth debate where we

4:44:494:44:52

were arguing for votes at 16, and

now is a 27-year-old I have not

4:44:524:44:57

changed my mind on that issue. I was

recently at a high school in my

4:44:574:45:03

constituency and I asked young

people there if they agreed with

4:45:034:45:06

votes at 16, and why. They told me

it is very important to them because

4:45:064:45:12

they are growing into a society, and

this Government, if it lasts the

4:45:124:45:17

year, will be making decisions that

affect their job prospects, a safety

4:45:174:45:21

net for them if something should go

wrong, how money is spent when they

4:45:214:45:25

pay tax, and how their society

works, but they are not able to

4:45:254:45:29

elect the Government that will make

these such critical decisions on

4:45:294:45:33

their lives. I would love to refute

some of the horrendous allegations

4:45:334:45:38

made against young people that have

come from members opposite, but

4:45:384:45:42

there are so many that I simply do

not have time. No, I will not give

4:45:424:45:46

way. What I would like to do is take

the message from my young

4:45:464:45:53

constituents to the House today. No

thank you. Young people are not too

4:45:534:45:59

unintelligent to vote. It is not

that they don't know enough about

4:45:594:46:03

politics, as has been insinuated.

No, thank you. And asking members...

4:46:034:46:10

If they have enough...

Order. Order.

On both sides of the House there is

4:46:104:46:17

too much noise and I want to hear

the honourable lady.

On accusations

4:46:174:46:22

that young people are not ready, not

clever enough, do not have the

4:46:224:46:26

political knowledge, I would ask

members if everyone... No, thank

4:46:264:46:29

you. If everyone they know has that

political knowledge. On behalf of my

4:46:294:46:36

constituents and 16 and 17-year-olds

watching across the country, I would

4:46:364:46:39

urge members in this House to vote

on this important motion.

Thank you,

4:46:394:46:48

Madame Deputy Speaker.

I made the point earlier at an

4:46:484:46:53

intervention but I do think it is

well worth making the point again.

4:46:534:47:00

This is an important issue. It does

quite rightly go to the heart of

4:47:004:47:06

what it means to live in a

democracy. It goes to the heart of

4:47:064:47:11

what it means to actually be an

active member of a democracy, and

4:47:114:47:20

unsurprisingly I would imagine that

a debate on votes for 16 and

4:47:204:47:26

17-year-olds will be keenly watched

by people of that age, and by people

4:47:264:47:32

perhaps even younger still who have

an interest in politics. I will give

4:47:324:47:37

way.

Faxed to the honourable

gentleman for giving way. Does he

4:47:374:47:41

agree -- thanks. Does he agree that

the 16 and 17-year-olds watching

4:47:414:47:46

this from the public gallery and at

home will feel thoroughly patronised

4:47:464:47:50

by the end of this debate?

Certainly

not by me, perhaps by her.

4:47:504:47:56

LAUGHTER

Order, order, order. I have a point

4:47:564:48:03

of order from Mr streeting.

I

thought I saw something disorderly,

4:48:034:48:06

and I haven't.

I apologise, madam.

I

am glad because if there was

4:48:064:48:14

something disorderly I would like to

think I would have seen it.

I would

4:48:144:48:23

thank the honourable gentleman to

withdraw that remark. I have said

4:48:234:48:26

nothing patronising. My point is the

tone of the debate from others who

4:48:264:48:29

have spoken is patronising, and as a

gentleman I invite him to withdraw

4:48:294:48:33

the remark.

As far as I can make out

there is nothing to withdraw. She

4:48:334:48:39

put forward the idea that young

people in a public gallery or

4:48:394:48:45

watching might feel patronised by

the debate. Visibly made the point

4:48:454:48:48

that I had no intention -- and I

simply made the point. I had no

4:48:484:48:55

intention of patronising them, and I

merely ask the question that perhaps

4:48:554:48:58

they might feel patronised by her.

It wasn't an assertion. Well,

4:48:584:49:06

because...

Order. There is far too

much noise in the chamber. And there

4:49:064:49:17

is an honourable member making

sedentary interventions and I can't

4:49:174:49:20

hear what she is saying. If she

would like to make an intervention

4:49:204:49:23

stand up and make an intervention.

I

asked him why I patronised them, but

4:49:234:49:35

I think it would be much better

returning to the issue in hand, as

4:49:354:49:38

to why the young people of the

United Kingdom aged 16 and 17 should

4:49:384:49:42

get the vote the same as they have

in Scotland.

I will address the

4:49:424:49:50

implicit question in her

intervention, about the differential

4:49:504:49:53

between certain voting rights north

of the border and voting rights here

4:49:534:49:58

in England, Wales and other parts of

the United Kingdom. Scotland has for

4:49:584:50:03

many many centuries, since the act

of Union, had a number of

4:50:034:50:07

differentials in terms of its laws

between... I will come back to my

4:50:074:50:10

honourable friend in just a moment.

The most classic one, we had it

4:50:104:50:15

debated here about the age at which

someone could get married. Gretna

4:50:154:50:18

Green is famous for the place in

Scotland were runaway bride and

4:50:184:50:24

grooms would go to to get married

without they need for parental

4:50:244:50:28

consent. And I certainly would never

want to impose English will in terms

4:50:284:50:36

of marriage laws on Scotland, and I

would ask...

I thank my honourable

4:50:364:50:44

friend for giving way. Does he agree

with me as we have seen from several

4:50:444:50:49

interventions in the House and

speeches earlier that age and wisdom

4:50:494:50:53

do not necessarily go hand in hand?

Further more to that, in Scotland

4:50:534:50:57

through the referendum we actually

extended the franchise to 16 and

4:50:574:51:01

17-year-olds which as a pragmatic

conservative we saw as test, and

4:51:014:51:07

they passed that test flying

colours, and that they passed that

4:51:074:51:12

test and they should be given the

rates across the country?

I have a

4:51:124:51:15

huge amount of respect for my

Caledonian colleagues, and indeed

4:51:154:51:20

the members from north of the border

on the other side of the chamber. I

4:51:204:51:26

have to say, though, in response to

his intervention, I just do not

4:51:264:51:30

agree. I will come onto why I do not

agree. It has already been mentioned

4:51:304:51:36

that there are a number of

differentials between the point...

4:51:364:51:41

Point of order.

I beg to move

the

question now be put.

No, I

4:51:414:51:51

appreciate the honourable

gentleman's point of order, and that

4:51:514:51:55

he begs to make that motion before

the House, but at this stage in the

4:51:554:52:03

debate I will not allow a closure

motion because we have been debating

4:52:034:52:08

this really important constitutional

matter for only one hour and 23

4:52:084:52:11

minutes. And I would normally expect

a matter of this importance, where

4:52:114:52:19

the House is full of people who

still wish to contribute to the

4:52:194:52:23

debate, and from which we have not

as yet had a chance to hear from the

4:52:234:52:31

Minister or indeed from benches of

the opposition parties, and I

4:52:314:52:34

appreciate the honourable gentleman

will be disappointed I will not

4:52:344:52:37

allow him to put that motion to the

House at this stage, but I'm sure he

4:52:374:52:41

will understand it is for the chair

to protect the position of every

4:52:414:52:50

backbencher in this chamber, and I

appreciate - there really should not

4:52:504:52:55

be this much noise when I am

speaking from the chair, I haven't

4:52:554:52:59

finished this point of order - that

it is my duty to protect the

4:52:594:53:06

position of everybody wishing to

participate in a debate such of

4:53:064:53:08

this. It is a matter of some

considerable importance and I am

4:53:084:53:11

ruling it requires more than one

hour and 23 minutes for a debate.

4:53:114:53:16

Point of order, Mr Owen.

I am not

challenging your ruling and anyway,

4:53:164:53:20

but can you me guidance? Because my

constituents, many have written to

4:53:204:53:26

me and contacted me to support two

bills today, and also the year third

4:53:264:53:32

bill for the member from

Wellingborough coming up. Can you

4:53:324:53:35

tell me when that is likely to

happen? Can we extend time in any

4:53:354:53:39

way? I genuinely don't know.

I'm

surprised the honourable gentleman

4:53:394:53:43

doesn't know, but for the sake of

clarity let me explain. I don't know

4:53:434:53:48

when the next bill will come

forward, because it depends how many

4:53:484:53:54

people wish to speak, but I do know

that we have only two and a half

4:53:544:53:58

minutes left before this session of

the House is finished, and that

4:53:584:54:04

whatever happens I waltzed to date

at precisely 2:30pm. I'm sure the

4:54:044:54:10

honourable gentleman is well aware

of that, but I'm happy to clarify

4:54:104:54:13

the situation. A point of order,

sir.

Isn't it bizarre that the party

4:54:134:54:21

opposite were happy for the debate,

the previous debate, the last for

4:54:214:54:24

around three and a half hours, and

that this one should only be an hour

4:54:244:54:32

and 20 minutes?

I thank the

honourable gentleman. He notes that

4:54:324:54:34

I would normally expect at least

three hours debate on an imported

4:54:344:54:40

second reading. Mr cleverly!

Thank

you...

I just want to thank the

4:54:404:54:50

honourable member for the support of

my bill. No, no...

4:54:504:54:55

LAUGHTER

Point of order, James Cleverly.

I

4:54:554:55:03

was going to say...

I absolutely

respect the ruling of the chair and

4:55:034:55:10

I am not challenging but what advice

can give the people who are watching

4:55:104:55:13

this debate who can't understand why

over a 150 MPs have come to support

4:55:134:55:16

it yet we can't move to abort? --

moved to a vote?

The advice the

4:55:164:55:26

honourable gentleman can give is

that this bill of course will come

4:55:264:55:28

back on another day and I am about

to say that. The fact that debate is

4:55:284:55:37

curtailed because it is almost

2:30pm does not mean there will not

4:55:374:55:40

be another opportunity.

Thank you,

Madame Deputy Speaker. Conscious of

4:55:404:55:50

time, my intention had been to wrap

up my comments relatively quickly,

4:55:504:55:54

however I am looking at the

enunciated and seeing that actually

4:55:544:55:57

the various interruptions and points

of order have meant I have hardly

4:55:574:56:00

been able to make any progress at

all. I would hope, and I know it is

4:56:004:56:04

never a good idea to try to apply

pressure on the chair, but I would

4:56:044:56:07

hope what is now going to be a very

limited time to make points on what

4:56:074:56:11

I think is a very important point

this time round, but when this bill

4:56:114:56:16

comes back to the House at a further

sitting Friday, as it will, that she

4:56:164:56:22

or Mr Speaker if he is then in the

chair might look favourably upon me

4:56:224:56:26

so that it can be called early and

make the point...

Order, order!

4:56:264:56:34

Order, order. Debate to be

resumed... What they? I didn't hear.

4:56:344:56:41

The 1st of December. -- what day.

Debate to be resumed 1st of

4:56:414:56:47

December, thank you.

4:56:474:56:54

Now, Madame Deputy Speaker.

Object?

Objection taken. Reading

4:56:544:57:01

what day?

Friday 1st of December,

madam speaker.

Friday, 1st of

4:57:014:57:07

December.

The question is that this House do

4:57:074:57:12

now adjourn.

Mr Conor McGinn.

4:57:124:57:16

Order. Order.

Mr McGinn deserves the courtesy of

4:57:164:57:22

the House being able to hear what he

has to say. I ask honourable members

4:57:224:57:29

leaving noisily, to do so quietly!

Conor McGinn.

4:57:294:57:35

Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker.

Thank you for granting this debate

4:57:354:57:40

on the contribution of music to the

UK economy. I tweeted yesterday that

4:57:404:57:45

I was leading a debate in the House

on music. I was asked would I be

4:57:454:57:50

doing so in song, I'm afraid my

singing abilities are restricted to

4:57:504:57:57

one genre, the warbling, and the

mell an colic kind and normally

4:57:574:58:02

reserved for a certain night of the

hour. The sort of songs that give

4:58:024:58:05

rise to the joke about an Irish

boomerang, one that never comes back

4:58:054:58:11

but sings about how much it wants

to. Before I begin I would like to

4:58:114:58:15

thank key figures and organisations

in the music industry, champions of

4:58:154:58:19

the sector and whose work has led to

this debate in large part today. And

4:58:194:58:26

I'm sure members from across the

House of Commons will join me in

4:58:264:58:34

thanking UK Mc, working to ensure

its success now and in the future. I

4:58:344:58:38

would like to thank music UKMan

chair Andy Heath. And former chief

4:58:384:58:52

executives, Feargal Sharkey and Joe

Dippel who made a huge contribution

4:58:524:59:01

to the profile of the McSector.

And I could not forget, he would not

4:59:014:59:07

allow me to, the good work of the

current music UK chief executive,

4:59:074:59:17

Michael Duggard, leading the

organisation through an interesting

4:59:174:59:26

but unpredictable time. We wish him

well has he goes about his work. I

4:59:264:59:32

want to offer to the individual

members of UK Music, the sum of the

4:59:324:59:43

parts, Ian Basker, MPA, the

Musician's Union and others and we

4:59:434:59:52

benefit greatly from their knowledge

and expertise when contributing to

4:59:524:59:56

debates such as this. UK Music

reports show that the UK music

4:59:565:00:11

industry contributed £14 billion in

2016, up 6%. There are 140,000

5:00:115:00:18

people employed in the industry,

with year on year growth of 19%

5:00:185:00:24

since 2015. More people are

attending festivals and gigs with an

5:00:245:00:31

incredible 31 million people

attending live music events in 2015.

5:00:315:00:45

These figures are incredible in

uncertain economic times.

5:00:455:00:50

Are you aware of form 696 a risk

assessment form which unfairly

5:00:505:00:57

targets grime music and urban acts,

would you join me to call on the

5:00:575:01:06

Lord Mayor to scrap this form as the

live events are so successful and

5:01:065:01:14

continue positively to the UK's

economy.

5:01:145:01:16

I thank her for the point. I agree

with the issue. It has been raised

5:01:165:01:24

with the Mayor of London and in the

industry. I had intention to mention

5:01:245:01:28

it. It is important for music in

London.

5:01:285:01:37

I thank my honourable friend for

giving way.

5:01:375:01:41

I'm sure anyone that appreciates

music will appreciate the fact that

5:01:415:01:48

the arena in Coventry, is a

wonderful event and wonderful music

5:01:485:01:52

events held there but this passing,

would he join me inry beauties to

5:01:525:02:01

the great Fats Domino who passed

away a few days ago.

5:02:015:02:04

I agree. We can all appreciate the

genius that was Fats Domino. I am

5:02:045:02:10

glad that the music in Coventry at

the Ricoh is definitely better than

5:02:105:02:16

the football it is pair to say! I

want to highlight the global success

5:02:165:02:21

of the industry. It's impressive

achievements in driving tourism and

5:02:215:02:27

generating export industries. The UK

music industry generated export

5:02:275:02:33

revenues of £2 billion. A huge

contribution and to the ex-checker

5:02:335:02:40

revenues, important as the UK leaves

the EU. At home, 823,000 overseas

5:02:405:02:49

music tourists attended gigs and

festivals in 2016. This is a credit

5:02:495:02:54

to the festivals, the number of

them, and the live music events from

5:02:545:03:03

Glastonbury, world famous, to the

West Street Music Festival in Saint

5:03:035:03:08

Helen's.

The honourable member is nationaling

5:03:085:03:21

international music festivals and

there are international acts in

5:03:215:03:24

Glasgow. And does he share my

concern that visa restrictions may

5:03:245:03:30

put these wonderful events at risk.

Very happy to.

5:03:305:03:36

And that festival is a traditional

Celtic festival. It is something of

5:03:365:03:43

which I am hugely fond. I will come

to the consequences of that

5:03:435:03:46

situation a little later if she will

allow me. Whilst there is cause for

5:03:465:03:51

celebration, we must in the House

remain aware of the threats to the

5:03:515:03:55

music industry's success. The

entrepreneurial creative nature of

5:03:555:04:00

the industry means there are many

small businesses and individual

5:04:005:04:05

freelancer operating in the sector.

Independent recording companies,

5:04:055:04:09

studios and music venues. The venues

as an example, across the UK an

5:04:095:04:16

estimated 35% of grass roots music

venues have closed down. Some in my

5:04:165:04:21

constituency. That is hundreds of

small businesses that have folded

5:04:215:04:26

and thousands of missed

opportunities for young artists.

5:04:265:04:32

Many closing down because of

developers buying up properties to

5:04:325:04:38

develop into houses and flats.

Thank you for givingway.

5:04:385:04:47

In my constituency there was a

threat of developers moving in, we

5:04:475:04:52

have managed to get the Welsh

government to change national

5:04:525:04:56

planning policy. Would he like to

see that developed across the UK?

5:04:565:05:01

Absolutely. It is a pertinent point.

Venues have closed down as a result

5:05:015:05:20

of developers, the financial burden

to install expensive sound proofing

5:05:205:05:26

equipment can be prohibitive if

there are other music venues,

5:05:265:05:34

operating in small margins near

developments.

5:05:345:05:44

I pay tribute for the campaign that

they have done on the issue

5:05:445:05:50

pertaining to their city. But to

bring about a change would impact on

5:05:505:05:57

existing responsibilities and the

developers must take responsibility.

5:05:575:06:02

My Right Honourable friend is

driving this forward, to bring

5:06:025:06:06

before the House. And the industry

faces a economic uncertainty as the

5:06:065:06:13

UK leaves the EU. It is not immune

to the threats and the challenges

5:06:135:06:19

arising from that. Employees, and it

was found that more than half feared

5:06:195:06:29

that leaving the EU would have a

negative impact on the industry.

5:06:295:06:34

The Government needs to recognise

that the lack of clarity on a

5:06:345:06:40

transitional deal is affecting the

music industry and delaying

5:06:405:06:44

investment and long-term planning.

On top, an estimated one in ten

5:06:445:06:49

workers in the music sector have a

passport from another country.

5:06:495:06:57

I want to pay tribute to the

important work of the musician's

5:06:575:07:05

union, and I hope that the minister

pays close attention to what they

5:07:055:07:08

have to say and will commit to

working with them on this.

5:07:085:07:17

I congratulate you on this debate. I

rise in support of the arguments you

5:07:175:07:21

are making as a former singer in a

band. Though I'm not sure that the

5:07:215:07:28

record sales of the music that I

wrote contributed to the economy but

5:07:285:07:33

the beer sales certainly did. 1.86

million music tourists visited the

5:07:335:07:41

north-west, generating £500 million

to the north-west economy,

5:07:415:07:45

sustaining 6,000 jobs. A key factor

in this is our ability to grow new

5:07:455:07:50

artists. Brexit presents

restrictions on freedom of movement,

5:07:505:07:55

would my friend support industry

calls for an EU wide touring

5:07:555:07:59

passport once the UK leaves to

ensure our musicians can continue to

5:07:595:08:04

perform overseas and not just in the

brilliant bars and venues like those

5:08:045:08:11

he and I frequent in Manchester.

Indeed. He makes a relevant and a

5:08:115:08:17

pertinent point. I hope it is

something that the government looks

5:08:175:08:21

closely at. I think that the

government needs to respond

5:08:215:08:26

carefully to the structural and the

technology changes in the industry.

5:08:265:08:30

Music and how we listen to it is

changing fast. An audience survey

5:08:305:08:37

found that radio accounted for one

tenth of 16 to 19-year-old listening

5:08:375:08:46

team, whereas on demand streaming

led up to 60%.

5:08:465:08:57

Given the significant growth in the

music consumption online, I think

5:08:575:09:01

that the Government must take action

to address the transfer value that

5:09:015:09:06

has developed in the digital economy

in recent years. Online platforms

5:09:065:09:12

have grown at the expense of the

music industry, with safe hash ours

5:09:125:09:18

in the ecommerce directives and

those who invest in them are not

5:09:185:09:22

always rewarded for the use of

content. It creates uneven playing

5:09:225:09:29

fields for those on the digital

platform. In perspective, a you tube

5:09:295:09:37

use senior under $1 but for Spotify

the figure is $20. So the value

5:09:375:09:42

resulting from the framework needs

to be closed so that the industry

5:09:425:09:46

can fully benefit from the great

potential presented by music

5:09:465:09:50

streaming. As the UK leaves the EU I

urge the government to pay close

5:09:505:09:56

attention to the proposed directive

on copyright in the digital single

5:09:565:10:00

market. That contains measures that

would be of a benefit to the music

5:10:005:10:06

industry, such as transparency and

addressing the transfer of value.

5:10:065:10:12

The government needs to ensure thats

the changes take place, writers,

5:10:125:10:19

artists and creators receive

benefits under copyright rules.

5:10:195:10:24

As a member of Parliament in the

north-west of England it is

5:10:245:10:30

encumbant for me to pay homage to

the music literature in Manchester

5:10:305:10:38

and Liverpool. As an Irish MP, I who

would say from the McCartney and the

5:10:385:10:50

Gallagher sisters and brothers, that

is as important. But to contribute

5:10:505:10:55

and highlight the musicians in my

constituency and their drive for

5:10:555:11:01

steranes and across the North Wales.

Saint Helen's is recognised as

5:11:015:11:05

leaders in the UK for arts and

culture. Despite cuts the council is

5:11:055:11:13

committed to providing access to

programmes for key stage two

5:11:135:11:16

children. But too many are excluded

from music as families don't have

5:11:165:11:21

enough money. The government should

look at bursaries for underfunded

5:11:215:11:27

areas like mine for music in brass

and silver bands, truly the

5:11:275:11:33

lifeblood of communities. Figures

for UK music show in 201625500

5:11:335:11:47

people generated box office of £1.2

million from live events.

5:11:475:11:57

We are fortunate to have fantastic

venues like the credit dell, the

5:11:575:12:06

west street fleet festival and more

adding to impressive figures. So I

5:12:065:12:11

want to call the government to do

what it can to support our thriving

5:12:115:12:15

music industry moving forward. I

hope that in her remarks that the

5:12:155:12:20

minister can reassure the sector by

committing to a change in UK law, to

5:12:205:12:27

close the value gap and address

disparities in the transfer of value

5:12:275:12:31

online. And in Brexit, that the

government avoid damaging

5:12:315:12:38

restrictions on musicians and

performers' freedom of movement and

5:12:385:12:44

ensure a passport so that musicians

can continue to tour. We have a

5:12:445:12:49

world leading music industry in this

country, not immune to the economic

5:12:495:12:52

threats we face. The government must

do you what it can to support the

5:12:525:12:58

sector and ensure it's success in

the coming years. The way in which

5:12:585:13:02

music is written and performed in

the UK has found and formed the

5:13:025:13:06

soundtrack to my life and it has

enriched the lives of many others. I

5:13:065:13:11

hope that the government will ensure

that future generations can ensure

5:13:115:13:17

the same world beating music sector,

thankfully with have the fortune to

5:13:175:13:22

be a part of.

5:13:225:13:26

I am delighted to speak in this

debate and thank you to the

5:13:265:13:31

honourable gentleman for securing

it. My honourable friend involved

5:13:315:13:38

with the music industry is

disappointed he could not be in

5:13:385:13:41

person, but having heard on his

constituency, I'm sure he would be

5:13:415:13:45

delighted to visit. But I'm afraid

you did forget to men that I mention

5:13:455:13:51

one of the greatest bands to ever

come out of Manchester, the Stone

5:13:515:13:58

Roses. I hope the member for Cardiff

was listening to his colleague, I

5:13:585:14:03

think at this time MP for became MP

five. I would take the opportunity

5:14:035:14:07

to reiterate -- it is time mp4

became mp5. And I would like to

5:14:075:14:19

thank all of the UK music member

organisations for the sterling work

5:14:195:14:22

they have undertaken over the last

ten years. This Government has

5:14:225:14:25

consistently championed the British

music industry and the incredible

5:14:255:14:29

talent which make the sector such a

success story for the UK. As stated

5:14:295:14:34

by the honourable gentleman, the

excellent measuring music report

5:14:345:14:36

showed that in 2016 music

contributed more than £4 billion to

5:14:365:14:40

the UK economy, up 6% on the

previous 12 months. The report also

5:14:405:14:45

highlighted the number of jobs in

music grew more quickly than across

5:14:455:14:48

the rest of the jobs market to over

140,000. And that experts were up

5:14:485:14:55

13% -- exports were up 13%. As the

House is already heard, the equally

5:14:555:15:02

brilliant report Wish You Were Here,

incidentally in my all-time top

5:15:025:15:07

five, showed the boom being enjoyed,

and increased by 20% to 12.5

5:15:075:15:16

million, generating a 4 billion --

£4 billion total spend. At the

5:15:165:15:21

contribution of the music industry

is not simply economic, playing a

5:15:215:15:24

vital role also in the UK's cultural

landscape. It is one of the things

5:15:245:15:28

making our country great and can

provide many people's first

5:15:285:15:31

introduction to all things British.

Our artists have provided billions

5:15:315:15:35

of people with a daily soundtrack to

their lives and of course the talent

5:15:355:15:38

does not end with the singers and

musicians. Cannot overlook the

5:15:385:15:42

outstanding producers, sound and

lighting engineers, songwriters,

5:15:425:15:48

composers and arrangers, roadies,

stage managers, and all else part of

5:15:485:15:52

the UK's vibrant music ecosystem. As

Government we need to continue to

5:15:525:15:56

create and support an environment in

which our music industry is able to

5:15:565:15:59

thrive. Over the past seven years

the Government has shown its

5:15:595:16:02

commitment to the industry in a

number of ways. Between 2012 and

5:16:025:16:07

2016 we invested over £460 million

in a wide range of music and

5:16:075:16:11

cultural education programmes.

Further to this, we have committed

5:16:115:16:18

to investing £75 million a year in

music hubs between 2016 and 2020.

5:16:185:16:23

August is a large musical groups are

able to benefit from the tax relief

5:16:235:16:28

introduced in April 20 16. The music

export growth scheme is making

5:16:285:16:32

almost £3 million in grant funding

available to help support the launch

5:16:325:16:36

of UK artists the international

market and it was developed in

5:16:365:16:39

partnership with the BPI and will be

funded by the Department for

5:16:395:16:45

International Trade up to 2020. Brit

award winners, and Yolanda Brown and

5:16:455:16:53

Mercury prize winners Young Fathers

are just some of those to benefit.

5:16:535:16:57

The live music act introduced in

2012 has made it much easier for

5:16:575:17:01

promoters to organise live music

events and we have made changes to

5:17:015:17:03

the permitted development rights

making it easier for

5:17:035:17:08

well-established music and cultural

venues to operate. The cultural

5:17:085:17:12

rooms scheme created 40 music

rehearsal spaces in areas of England

5:17:125:17:21

experiencing multiple deprivation.

Funding of £440,000 provided

5:17:215:17:26

instruments and equipment and

contributed towards the cost of

5:17:265:17:29

necessary works such as

soundproofing. The Government has

5:17:295:17:32

taken a number of steps to bolster

the enforcement of copyright,

5:17:325:17:36

including increasing the maximum

custodial sentence for online

5:17:365:17:40

copyright offences, providing

funding to the creative content UK

5:17:405:17:47

programme and brokering a voluntary

code of conduct between rights

5:17:475:17:51

holders and search engines to reduce

the number of infringing websites in

5:17:515:17:55

search results. Grassroot music

venues supported by the grassroot

5:17:555:18:00

equivalent recording rehearsal rooms

are we are so many of our

5:18:005:18:03

world-class musicians take their

first steps of the road to success.

5:18:035:18:06

The Government believes this vital

and vibrant part of the music

5:18:065:18:09

ecosystem must be allowed to

prosper. We have already reformed

5:18:095:18:13

entertainment licensing and made

changes to planning requirements

5:18:135:18:15

making it easier for small venues to

operate and we are currently

5:18:155:18:18

exploring a range of issues with

industry and Government stakeholders

5:18:185:18:23

including working more closely

across Government to better support

5:18:235:18:24

the sector. The agent of change

principle as well, and the impact of

5:18:245:18:30

business rate rises on the

grassroots, availability of suitable

5:18:305:18:35

space.

I am grateful. She mentioned

the Live Music Act, and she knows

5:18:355:18:46

that was a Private members Bill, and

the honourable gentleman mentioned,

5:18:465:18:52

the member for quarterly, with the

Government consider possibly if it

5:18:525:18:55

is considering -- member for Worley.

Order. I don't mean to jump up and

5:18:555:19:11

into rock, but it is not for the

member to intervene or take part in

5:19:115:19:15

an adjournment debate such as this.

However, it is a good-natured debate

5:19:155:19:20

and the honourable gentleman was not

causing trouble, so I'm not going on

5:19:205:19:24

this occasion to stop the minister

from hearing what he has said, but

5:19:245:19:28

for the record it's not in order for

him to take part in the debate.

5:19:285:19:31

Minister.

Thank you, Madame Deputy

Speaker. I wouldn't wish to be out

5:19:315:19:38

of order by responding so I will

ensure that my ministerial colleague

5:19:385:19:43

reads the Hansard and response in

writing to him. I won't, if that is

5:19:435:19:52

OK, although I think I know... Of

course.

I am very grateful to the

5:19:525:19:58

minister and will be very quick.

Will the Government support the

5:19:585:20:01

Private members Bill honourable

member for Warley?

I am reassured

5:20:015:20:09

the Minister with responsibility for

the music industry response to the

5:20:095:20:12

honourable lady as well as to the

front bench spokesman on that

5:20:125:20:16

matter. The Government's response to

the recent inquiry into the

5:20:165:20:20

licensing in the desert he will be

published shortly and we will

5:20:205:20:23

continue to work across government

and with industry and local industry

5:20:235:20:26

to promote small venues -- the

licensing industry. The minister

5:20:265:20:32

raised Brexit and understandably so.

I want to assure him that there have

5:20:325:20:35

been a series of Round Tables to

ensure the needs and views of all

5:20:355:20:38

the creative industries including

music are heard and understood. They

5:20:385:20:42

continue to work closely with

stakeholders and other players on

5:20:425:20:46

the opportunities provided by

Brexit. Our own Visa system helps

5:20:465:20:52

shape perception of the UK around

the world and we strive constantly

5:20:525:20:56

to improve our Visa service to make

sure it is as simple, streamlined

5:20:565:21:00

and efficient as bobble to welcome

established artists to the UK. -- as

5:21:005:21:07

possible to welcome. This is being

considered with other activity and

5:21:075:21:12

we welcome the views of the music

industry on visas in respect of

5:21:125:21:16

movement within Europe. I am aware

of the these are issues for artists

5:21:165:21:20

travelling to the USA and I am

grateful for the constructive

5:21:205:21:23

engagement of industry with the UK

and US governments and I share the

5:21:235:21:26

desire to reduce this burden on the

British music industry, especially

5:21:265:21:30

for emerging talent, and we continue

to work with the sector, Foreign

5:21:305:21:35

Office colleagues and Embassy

counterparts in the US. While I am a

5:21:355:21:40

vinyl loyalist everyone in this

house will recognise over the past

5:21:405:21:44

ten years that recorded music

industry has gone through a major

5:21:445:21:47

transformation with digital

downloads, online platforms and the

5:21:475:21:50

more recent explosion of streaming

services all shifting the way music

5:21:505:21:53

is consumed. DCMS is working closely

with the intellectual property

5:21:535:21:59

office to ensure the music

industry's concerns are taking into

5:21:595:22:03

consideration in negotiating the

copyright package. Online platforms,

5:22:035:22:08

like all businesses, must act in a

socially responsible manner and

5:22:085:22:12

cooperate with law enforcement

agencies in a reasonable and timely

5:22:125:22:14

way to remove illegal material. We

have been working successfully with

5:22:145:22:18

industry on a voluntary basis to

achieve this. We believe Internet

5:22:185:22:23

companies need to take more

responsibility for content on their

5:22:235:22:26

platforms and we need to make sure

we get the right balance to ensure

5:22:265:22:29

we have a vibrant Internet whilst

also protecting users from illegal

5:22:295:22:34

and or harmful content and we are

currently working on proposals for a

5:22:345:22:37

digital charter setting out

frameworks for businesses,

5:22:375:22:41

individuals and how the wider

society should act online,

5:22:415:22:43

addressing some of the issues faced

by the music industry. Turning to

5:22:435:22:48

form 696, many will know that the

Minister for Digital has expressed

5:22:485:22:54

concern, and the potential negative

impact upon London's grassroots

5:22:545:22:57

music scene and venues. Of course on

the back of this is the worry that

5:22:575:23:01

the form may be stifling young

artist and reducing the diversity of

5:23:015:23:06

London's well renowned -- world

renowned musical offering. It could

5:23:065:23:09

also push promoters to take genre

specific events outside of London

5:23:095:23:14

and we are pleased that the net are

reviewing how they work with the

5:23:145:23:18

music industry and the -- pleased

that the London police service are

5:23:185:23:24

reviewing. The sector is a

tremendous ambassador for the wealth

5:23:245:23:30

of creativity that exists on these

islands. Wherever you look, you see

5:23:305:23:34

great British musical and creative

talent. With household names across

5:23:345:23:37

the world, from Glastonbury, Elgar,

the Pet Shop Boys, Abbey Road and

5:23:375:23:44

ear Studios, Wembley, the UK is a

world leader in music. They are big

5:23:445:23:51

part of why the UK is currently

ranked second in the world and why

5:23:515:23:55

people from around the world want to

come here. This Government is

5:23:555:23:58

committed to continuing to support

the UK music's industry at home and

5:23:585:24:01

abroad. We want our music industry

to continue to be the envy of the

5:24:015:24:06

world, promoting and showcasing the

very best of our unique brand of

5:24:065:24:09

creativity.

The question is that

this House do now adjourned. As many

5:24:095:24:17

as are of the opinion, say 'aye'. To

the contrary, 'no'. The ayes have

5:24:175:24:21

it. Order, order.

5:24:215:24:27

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