29/11/2017 House of Commons


29/11/2017

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LineFromTo

continue to work tirelessly to that

end.

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THE SPEAKER:

Order.

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I wondered whether you had notice of

any intended statement by the Home

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Secretary on this serious matter?

I confess I have no advance notice

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of this matter. I am not myself one

who tends to follow what is said on

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Twitter, though the honourable

gentleman is almost invariably very

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well informed on these matters. The

Home Secretary is welcome to say

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something. She is under no

obligation to do so whatsoever.

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The right honourable Lady is not

hailing a taxi...

LAUGHTER

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Very well, in deference to the

seniority of the right honourable

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lady. If she has a point of order to

raise, I will hear it.

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Further to that point of order, I

understand the woman has already

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been convicted of hate crime in this

country, and on that basis, given

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the significance and seriousness of

having the president of United

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States giving her such a huge

platform, does he not feel it

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appropriate for us to hear a word of

condemnation and raising this from

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the Home Secretary or the Foreign

Secretary?

It is a point of order

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for the chair. I can say only that,

at the moment, it would be obvious

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to her and her Honourable friend, I

have received no advance notice of

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any intention to make a statement.

Order. It would be wrong to expect a

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government minister immediately to

respond. The Home Secretary, to be

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fair, is under no obligation to do

so. What I would say is, I do know

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the honourable gentleman very well,

and if anything, I know the right

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honourable lady, because we came

into the House together 20 years ago

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even better. Knowing them as well as

I do, I know that when they've got

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their teeth into something, they are

disinclined to let go. By the way,

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that's a condiment. I think we will

leave it there for now. I rather

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imagine this matter will be

mentioned again. If there are no

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further points of order, we come now

to the urgent question, Mr Chris

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Leslie.

Can I ask the Chancellor of

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Exchequer to advise the House on the

cost of exiting the European Union.

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Mr Speaker...

Our negotiating team are currently

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in Brussels discussing our exit from

the European Union. In fact, our

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officials have been working on it

for months. It would be completely

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wrong of me to cut across those

discussions by commenting on

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speculation on the financial

settlement. And it would not be in

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our national interest. The Prime

Minister made it clear in her

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Florence speech, that EU member

states would not need to pay more or

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receive less money over the

remainder of the current budget, as

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a result of our decision to leave.

She also made it clear, the UK will

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honour its commitments made during

the period of membership in the

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spirit of our future partnership. As

we have said before, nothing is

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agreed until everything is agreed.

And that any settlement we make is

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contingent on us securing a suitable

outcome, as outlined by the Prime

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Minister in her Florence speech. We

will meet our commitments, and also

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get a good deal for the UK taxpayer.

We want to see progress towards our

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preferred option, which is an

increment Asian period, followed by

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an ambitious future economic

partnership. In the budget, we set

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aside £3 billion in addition to the

700 million we've already allocated

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to make sure that our country is

fully prepared for revenge well it

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is. What we have seen today is

simply media speculation, and we

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will update the House when there is

more detail to give.

Mr Chris

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Leslie.

Mr Speaker, the British

people were promised a dividend from

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Brexit. They were told leaving the

EU would save a fortune. Those that

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campaigned for Brexit daubed their

hubris across the side of a giant

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red Basque, promising a windfall of

£350 billion for the NHS per week.

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That wasn't just a whopping lie, it

was the direct opposite of the truth

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-- £350 million. Will the Chief

secretary confirmed that? If the

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divorce Bill comes in between £47

billion in six to £7 billion, that

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would be a payment of £1000 from

every man, woman and child in this

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country, £1000. Isn't this

speculated divorce Bill just the tip

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of the iceberg? If we are honest

about the true cost of Brexit,

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should we add in the lost revenues

to the Exchequer, something of the

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order of £20 billion by 2021. And

also that £3.7 billion of Brexit

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preparations for those duplicated

agencies, new border arrangements,

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Lori Parks in Dover, and so forth,

and the higher cost of living for

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all of our constituents as prices

keep rising. Can I ask the chief

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secretary, how did her constituents

react to the idea that they will be

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lumbered with these extra costs?

Don't they ask her, what exactly are

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we getting for this? What wondrous

new advantages will we gain by

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shelling out these astronomical

sons? When the chief secretary be

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straight to the House that we are

paying for the privilege of putting

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the world's most efficient free

trade tariff free frictionless

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agreement into the bin, and we're

being told to pay for the privilege

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of downgrading to an inferior deal

with our European neighbours? Why is

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the chief secretary being so coy

about the deal that is being done?

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They've gone from go whistle to

where do we sign in a week. A week

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when the government won't fully

publish the Brexit impact papers to

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the House, we hear rumours that

Parliament and the public may never

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be told the full amount. When will

Parliament be told what is actually

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happening, and will we get a vote on

the sums of money involved? Will she

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right here and right now Scotch this

nonsense that the true cost of

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Brexit will be hidden away in a

convenient backroom deal in a

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negotiation? The British people need

to know, is there a deal? How much

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have the government put on the table

in the negotiations, and if she

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won't tell us, why does she think

that the only people who can't be

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told the British public and the

British Parliament? This is not what

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the British public for in the

referendum. It is not taking back

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control, it is losing control.

I can

tell the honourable gentleman what

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my constituents say, what they say

is, the country has voted to leave

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the European Union.

And what they want to see is ask it

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on with it and secure the best

possible deal for Britain. If we

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look at the opposition benches, we

see people like the honourable

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gentleman that asked the question,

who voted to stay in the single

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market and Customs union, we see

members on the front bench that

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voted to leave the single market,

the customs union. Today, we read

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the Shadow Home Secretary wants

there to be a second referendum.

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This is not remotely helpful in

securing the best possible deal. And

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the honourable gentleman knows

personally well, we are in

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negotiations as we speak. If, in

this House, were we to talk about

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numbers and the aspects of the deal,

that would cut across our

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negotiating position. What the

people of Britain want to see is ask

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it on with it, they want to see us

take the advantages of leaving the

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European Union, make the most of

those opportunities, secure the best

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possible deal. We are well on the

way to doing that. I suggest to the

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honourable gentleman, rather than

trying to re-fight the referendum

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battle, which is exactly what he

seems to be doing, he needs to get

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with the programme and start talking

about how he can be helpful.

Mr

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Kenneth Clarke.

Mr Speaker, would my

right honourable friend agree that

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the government of any EU member

state could possibly be expected to

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agree that we should have a good

future trading and economic racial

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chip with the union, whilst at the

same time repudiates our past

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financial obligations, and are

somehow refusing to pay a fair share

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of the costs of agencies and so on

that we will incur in the future. We

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should therefore agree, those that

oppose paying any money are

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presumably wanting a no deal Brexit.

That would actually be catastrophic

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for the country, and would stop the

opportunity of having a deal that

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retains as many benefits for jobs,

investment, and the growth of the

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economy of this country as we

possibly can in the future.

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As the Prime Minister laid out in

her Florence speech, we do want to

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abide by our commitments made during

our period of membership, and we

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also want to see progress on

securing a deal. The right

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honourable gentleman is right. Any

settlement that we seek to achieve

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has to be contingent on getting a

suitable outcome from those

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negotiations as outlined by the

Prime Minister. Because what we want

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to make sure is that any money spent

is value for money for the British

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taxpayer.

Mr Speaker, can I thank my

honourable friend from Nottingham

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East for raising this critical

question today. As we all know,

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settling this issue is vital to

continuing to the next part of the

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negotiations. Given that progress

has been so much slower than we

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would have hoped, the opposition is

supportive of efforts to resolve

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this part of the negotiations as

soon as is feasible, so we can start

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to make progress to end uncertainty

impacting jobs and the economy. We

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believe the financial settlement

with the EU must meet our

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international obligations, while

delivering a fair deal for British

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taxpayers. The UK is a responsible

country, and there is no mileage in

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us refusing to meet our obligations.

And if we are going to negotiate the

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comprehensive deal with the European

Union which we need, we do need to

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be seen as a country that can be

trusted to comply with the deals we

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reach. Given our long-standing

membership of the EU, this

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cultivation will understandably be

complex. We appreciate the

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government cannot announce a figure

publicly at this stage, given it is

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a sensitive part of the

negotiations. But what we would

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argue for instead is that the

government must be transparent about

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the process, especially once an

understanding has been reached with

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our EU partners. This is why we have

tabled an amendment to the

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withdrawal of all, that calls for

any financial settlement to be

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agreed by the National order office

and for Parliament to have the

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chance to scrutinise it. The

government's handling of the

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presentation of the impact

assessment studies to parliament has

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left a lot to be desired. Can I

therefore ask the chief secretary to

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promise the government will support

the amendment in the interest of

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transparency and clarity?

I thank the honourable gentleman for

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his supportive comments, and I'm

glad he agrees with the government

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strategy. I think the next step will

be making sure his backbench

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colleagues also agree with his

strategy. He's absolutely right, we

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should not reveal the of

negotiations while they are ongoing.

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I should point out to the honourable

gentleman that the approach of the

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opposition by saying that any deal

is better than no deal is not the

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best way of securing a deal. We also

are preparing for all eventualities,

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that's why we're preparing and

putting in £3 billion. I would

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suggest that the opposition should

also should support that was

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possible approach.

Sir Iain Duncan

Smith.

Can I say to my right

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honourable friend that I am not in

favour of anything that is not

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legal, so I support her completely,

and I am in line with my right

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honourable friend that got up

earlier. What ever the legal

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equipment -- agreement is, could she

please remind those who have raised

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this question that even if we agree

of something in the region of 40

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billion over the period of years, we

are not paying a conclusion, the UK

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Exchequer would be better off by

£360 million in the course of that

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40 years, a net gain with a free

trained arrangement.

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My right honourable friend makes a

very fair point. Whatever happens,

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we are not going to be paying

anything like what we would have

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paid as an EU member, this

represents a considerable saving to

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the British taxpayer.

Thank you to

the member for Nottingham East for

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bringing this matter to the House.

There would be no newspaper rumours

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about the sum of the Government told

us what this was. Nobody voted for

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disastrous, disorganised EU exit.

People voted for £350 million a week

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for the NHS, not to spend 40 or £50

billion just to be worse off. Our

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public services must not pay the

price for this Brexit method. It

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surprised us all when earlier this

year the Prime Minister found a

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magic monetary. Surely the

Government cannot have been lucky

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enough to find truth -- a magic

money tree. Will there be a

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emergency budget for him to explain

where he is finding the money?

I

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thought, Mr Speaker, when the

honourable lady said it was going to

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be to thank the Government for the

£2 billion additional spending power

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that we've gave to the Scottish

Government in the budget, which no

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doubt they will be able to use to

improve their services. As I've said

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before and, indeed, as has been

pointed out by the opposition front

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to talk about the money now would

cut across the local Shia shins and

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prevent us from getting the best

possible deal. That is not in

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anybody's interests. -- would cut

across the negotiations and prevent

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us.

The comprehensive preparations

for an ordeal, it is important we

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are not up against the clock at the

end, forced into a bad deal because

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we have no alternative. -- for no

deal. Will she confirmed that the

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advantage of no deal has the

advantage of not having to pay any

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divorce bill?

My honourable friend

is correct. It is irresponsible of

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the opposition front bench to

suggest that any deal is better than

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older. That is the way that we are

not going to get our preferred

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option, and implementation period

plus our preferred economic

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partnership. -- is better than no

deal. We have allotted millions of

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pounds to prepare for all

eventualities.

The UK is currently a

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member of a large number of EU

agencies, from that deal with

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aviation safety to the European

medicine's agency. Has the

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Government made an assessment of the

likely cost to the Exchequer of

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having to replicate all of those

conscience and activities if the

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Government eventually decides that

we have to leave all of them because

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of its stated principle objection to

the ECJ having any jurisdiction over

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the UK?

I've been very clear with

the House already that we are

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preparing for all eventualities and,

of course, looking at the specifics

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of those agencies as part of that.

Mr David Jones.

As my right one

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friend has pointed out, in her

fluent speech, the premise to make a

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fair and generous offer to the EU.

-- macaw. Given that Article 50 of

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the treaty provides that the

negotiations that are currently

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underway should be conducted, taking

into account the future relationship

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between the EU and UK, it is high

time that the EU reciprocated and

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started adhering to its obligations

under the treaty.

As my honourable

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friend points out, it is important

that we move onto the next stage of

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the negotiations and talk about a

long-term relationship with the EU

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wants his left and that's exactly

what we are seeking to do. -- with

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the EU once we've left and that.

Following the answer, all of our

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consistence saw the slogan on the

side of the bus and if the

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Government continues to say nothing

and keeps radio silence for a long

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time and then suddenly plucks a

figure out of the hat at the end of

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a process, it will be corporates but

everybody. Surely she can tell the

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House but the kinds of things the

Government thinks it should be

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funding, pension contributions or

whatever else, surely she can tell

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us the kind of things rather than

just leaving everybody in the dark?

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I refer the honourable lady to the

Prime Minister's Florence speech,

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where she laid out commitments that

we want to continue and honour after

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we left the EU in the spirit of our

future partnership. The honourable

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lady has to be aware that this is

part of a discussion which is also

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about our future relationship and

all of those elements are contingent

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on securing all future relationship

as the Prime Minister laid out in

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the Florence speech. It would be

wrong at this stage, from the point

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of view negotiations and

transparency to the public, to lay

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out something before it is fully

agreed, that would not help.

Perhaps

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on the far side of the chamber they

would like to look at the

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prospective budget put out by

economists for free trade the week

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before the budget, with a exciting

prospectus that the economy will

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grow at 3% a year by 2025, providing

surplus of £60 billion, which easily

0:20:430:20:51

cut covers the bill. It is dependent

on reciprocal free trade with no

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terrorists. Can my -- with no

tariffs. Can can we have a deal on

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reciprocal free trade and zero

tariffs?

I fear my honourable friend

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is overoptimistic if he thinks he

can stop the opposition benches

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being miserable!

LAUGHTER

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With drivers for four days of budget

debate and have so far been

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unsuccessful. -- we have tried this

for four days. The honourable friend

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is right about the benefits of free

trade for the UK. We are seeking a

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good deal that benefit the UK in

London.

Mr Speaker. At least 45

0:21:410:21:47

billion higher inflation in debt, an

extra year of cuts and less

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influence in the world is the price

the Government and willing to pay

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for it to the division of Great

Britain post-Brexit. Is there any

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level of damage the UK economy, jobs

and families have to sustain which

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will cause the Government to

rethink, give the people involved on

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the deal supported by the Liberal

Democrats, the London mayor and now

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the Shadow Home Secretary, as I

understand it?

I say regrettably

0:22:140:22:19

that the misery has spread to the

Liberal Democrat benches, this is to

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be a contagion is on the benches

opposite. I would welcome the fact

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that we have the lowest unemployment

in this country that we've had for

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40 years. We have the third highest

number of start-ups in the world, a

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record number for this country. The

positive benefits that we see from

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the actions of this Conservative

Government.

John Baron.

Most of us,

0:22:430:22:52

social and newsletters, except that

a good trade deal is better than

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older, that there is always give and

take in a negotiation and it is

0:22:540:22:59

important that we meet our financial

equipment commitments. Does she

0:22:590:23:04

accept that this is likely a storm

in a teacup because nothing is

0:23:040:23:08

agreed until everything is agreed?

It is important to make this point

0:23:080:23:12

and not listen to the siren voices

that refuse to accept the result of

0:23:120:23:17

the referendum. The a few siren

voices.

Incredibly, there are

0:23:170:23:25

people, particularly by the

opposition benches, that still do

0:23:250:23:30

not accept democracy and the fact

that people did vote to leave the

0:23:300:23:33

EU.

Chris Bryant.

The Government is

keeping its cards so close to its

0:23:330:23:41

just that I suspect they haven't

even looked at them themselves. The

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left-hander not know what the right

hand is saying, the Government

0:23:450:23:49

minister is making it clear that

they will play a lot of money for a

0:23:490:23:53

outcome. Boris Johnson told the has

confidently that they should go

0:23:530:24:01

whistle. What should they go

whistle? Stand And Deliver, Your

0:24:010:24:11

Money Or Your Life?

The honourable

manner be aware that there is

0:24:110:24:17

considerable work going across

Government. -- man will be aware. It

0:24:170:24:20

is in a country's interest to reach

the point where we are talking about

0:24:200:24:26

our long-term economic relationship

with the EU.

So Desmond Swayne.

She

0:24:260:24:34

shouldn't pay more than we all, Mr

Speaker. But she should be confident

0:24:340:24:39

that whatever this is it a bargain

against the cost of staying in.

My

0:24:390:24:45

honourable friend makes a good point

that, you know, as we stay in, where

0:24:450:24:53

are we to stay in, the cost would be

considerably higher than any amount

0:24:530:24:57

we are talking about as part of our

negotiations.

Mrs Louise Ellman.

The

0:24:570:25:06

Government is so intent on keeping

information it has about Brexit

0:25:060:25:09

secretive that it is truly risking

of Parliament. As this even more

0:25:090:25:19

secretive financial settlement is

negotiated, how can we be sure that

0:25:190:25:21

it represents national interests?

As

I have pointed out already in this

0:25:210:25:28

discussion that we're having, these

negotiations are not yet complete,

0:25:280:25:33

is not a number that we can disclose

to the House. When there is one and

0:25:330:25:38

when there is more detail to give,

we will come to the House and talk

0:25:380:25:42

about it.

Mr Robert Halfon.

Thank

you, Mr Speaker. Does my honourable

0:25:420:25:50

friend agree that a good budget and

good housekeeping and the pressures

0:25:500:25:55

on public spending, that if the

oppression is given that we have

0:25:550:25:59

wads of cash and loads of money when

it comes to Europe that it

0:25:590:26:02

undermines our argument only the

public sector and the neutral good

0:26:020:26:09

housekeeping, especially since the

House of Lords says there is no

0:26:090:26:15

legal and financial obligations? --

and the need for a good

0:26:150:26:18

housekeeping. This is not a divorce

bill. We are leaving a club, once

0:26:180:26:22

you leave a copy no longer have the

basic scriptures. -- once you leave

0:26:220:26:28

a club, you no longer have to pay

subscription.

Debt is following as a

0:26:280:26:35

proportion of GDP for the first time

in 13 years. -- is falling as a

0:26:350:26:40

proportion. You are keeping with the

deficit targets. We were able to

0:26:400:26:44

freeze full duty to help ordinary

working people who need to keep

0:26:440:26:50

their living costs down. -- fuel

duty. The reality is that as we

0:26:500:26:55

leave the EU we will not longer be

paying those vast sums of money in

0:26:550:27:00

and that will represent a benefit to

the taxpayer.

Is the Minister aware

0:27:000:27:07

that 70% of the people that voted in

both -- in Bolsover voted to leave?

0:27:070:27:23

Those same people in Bolsover, I

believe, would expect me to tell the

0:27:230:27:27

honourable lady from the finance

department that if they've got £60

0:27:270:27:31

billion to spare it should go to the

National Health Service and social

0:27:310:27:37

care.

The honourable gentleman will

be well aware that as part of last

0:27:370:27:44

week's budget we were able to put

additional money into the National

0:27:440:27:51

Health Service, hospital capital,

making sure that we hit our A&E

0:27:510:28:00

targets and with nurses pay.

Doctor

Gillian Lewis.

These negotiations

0:28:000:28:09

remind me of the even more complex

ones on arms reductions in the

0:28:090:28:14

1980s. Will the Minister Bear in

mind that the lessons of those

0:28:140:28:20

negotiations were first that too

many one-sided concessions project

0:28:200:28:25

an image of weakness and secondly in

order to get the very best deal you

0:28:250:28:30

often have to walk away first and

wait for the other side to agree

0:28:300:28:34

with you to sit down, come back and

negotiate realistically?

It's

0:28:340:28:41

because the need to make sure that

the URL where we have alternatives

0:28:410:28:48

that we are preparing -- that the

European Union are aware we have

0:28:480:28:54

alternatives that we are preparing

for the option of a transition

0:28:540:28:59

period, we are preparing for a no

deal scenario. The opposition would

0:28:590:29:04

like to give that option we saw that

we cannot have that discussion with

0:29:040:29:08

the EU.

There are two salient

features about the news that is

0:29:080:29:14

emerging. The first, this is the

opposite to what was promised during

0:29:140:29:18

the referendum. We were promised the

judge and £50 million a week more

0:29:180:29:23

and now the cupboard is set to pay

up to 50 billion when our

0:29:230:29:27

constituents need money for health,

housing and more. What is it that we

0:29:270:29:34

are paying for? Other countries pay

significant sums to get into

0:29:340:29:39

physical market, we are lining up to

pay up to £50 billion to leave the

0:29:390:29:43

single market. -- to get into the

single market. Isn't the tragedy

0:29:430:29:48

that these huge sums are paying for

a worse deal than we have at

0:29:480:29:53

present? That's hardly strategic.

0:29:530:30:02

As I have said before, nothing is

agreed until everything is agreed,

0:30:020:30:06

and we will expect to make progress

and secure that long-term economic

0:30:060:30:12

partnership, which will be to the

benefit of UK citizens.

Mr Jason

0:30:120:30:16

Rees Mogg.

Will my right honourable

friend note the growing concern that

0:30:160:30:23

Her Majesty's government seems in

these negotiations to be dancing to

0:30:230:30:26

the tune of the European Commission.

Can I ask her further to the

0:30:260:30:30

question of my right honourable

friend, the Member for North

0:30:300:30:34

Shropshire, if she can be certain

that after 29th March, 2019, that we

0:30:340:30:41

will make no payment to the European

Union whatsoever in the absence of a

0:30:410:30:46

full agreement covering trade.

I can

assure my honourable friend that we

0:30:460:30:55

are not dancing to anyone's tune.

What we care about is the future of

0:30:550:31:00

written's economy, protecting the

British taxpayer from access

0:31:000:31:06

payments, and making sure we secure

a good deal, which is why it is so

0:31:060:31:11

important we don't discuss these

numbers whilst we are in the middle

0:31:110:31:16

of a very important negotiation.

Jonathan Edwards.

Mr Speaker, I have

0:31:160:31:23

been informed by a public financial

auditor that international

0:31:230:31:26

accounting standard on provisions

requires the UK Government to

0:31:260:31:31

account for the divorce to be met as

expenditure, even if the exact

0:31:310:31:38

amount cannot become chelated. Given

that the government's accounts the

0:31:380:31:42

26th in- 17 did not adequately

exposed, will she give assurances

0:31:420:31:52

this provision will be subject to

the vote of this House.

That would

0:31:520:31:59

be wrong, according to accounting

principles, because nothing has been

0:31:590:32:03

agreed, and the Office for Budget

Responsibility followed the Prime

0:32:030:32:11

Minister's Florence speech in laying

out their projections for the

0:32:110:32:14

budget. I suggest to the honourable

gentleman that he has misinterpreted

0:32:140:32:17

those standards.

Can my right honourable friend

0:32:170:32:24

confirmed that she does agree with

me that the UK should pay the EU

0:32:240:32:29

what we are legally obliged to pay,

not a penny more, and not a penny

0:32:290:32:34

less. If so, will she make sure that

before this House votes on the final

0:32:340:32:39

Bill, we have an itemised account of

exactly what we are paying for at

0:32:390:32:44

the end of it, and also the legal

basis upon which we are making those

0:32:440:32:48

payments. Because I had to say, Mr

Speaker, the honourable member for

0:32:480:32:53

Bolsover is right, if there is any

spare money going, at a time of

0:32:530:32:57

austerity, that should be directed

to our priorities in the UK, it

0:32:570:33:01

should not be given to the European

Union that we are not legally

0:33:010:33:04

obliged to do.

I can assure my

honourable friend that we are

0:33:040:33:10

determined to get the best possible

deal for the British taxpayer, and

0:33:100:33:15

we need to look at the overall deal

in the round and see what represents

0:33:150:33:20

value for money. And absolutely, the

money should be being spent on our

0:33:200:33:24

public services, and keeping taxes

low for our hard-working citizens.

0:33:240:33:30

Mrs Ellen Goodman.

Last week, the

Treasury published the red book,

0:33:300:33:37

showing that there would be no more

payments to EU institutions from

0:33:370:33:42

2019. The Redbook also said there

was 15 billion head room and debt

0:33:420:33:49

would then be falling. Doesn't the

news overnight showed there is a 30

0:33:490:33:55

billion hole in the public finances,

and there is no possibility of debt

0:33:550:33:59

falling on this timescale?

The honourable lady is not correct

0:33:590:34:04

about that. The OBR have made

predictions on EU payments, and

0:34:040:34:10

those are included in the budget. It

was raised by him my honourable

0:34:100:34:15

friend at the budget debate last

week.

Could the Minister please

0:34:150:34:23

confirm that any payments that are

to be offered will be itemised and

0:34:230:34:28

set out, so that Parliament can

understand what the constitution of

0:34:280:34:31

the payment is going to be, and that

we can therefore put it into the

0:34:310:34:35

context of any likely conditioning

that may be required in the context

0:34:350:34:39

of any future relationship deal?

I can assure my honourable friend

0:34:390:34:45

that the payments that would

potentially be made, and as we have

0:34:450:34:54

discussed before, nothing is agreed

until everything is agreed, will be

0:34:540:34:57

absolute value for money.

My honourable friend is absolutely

0:34:570:35:04

right in his question to highlight

the very serious difficulty the

0:35:040:35:08

country now faces, I hope it is true

that agreement has been reached on

0:35:080:35:11

the cost of exit, so that

negotiations can move onto the next

0:35:110:35:14

stage. As right honourable lady

agreed with me, it is essential in

0:35:140:35:20

the UK national interest that the

European Council at his meeting next

0:35:200:35:25

month agreed that enough progress

has been made to move on to

0:35:250:35:28

discussions about future trade.

We absolutely want to secure moving

0:35:280:35:36

onto the next stage of these

negotiations. That is very

0:35:360:35:41

important. Ultimately, it takes the

UK and EU 27 to agree on that, and

0:35:410:35:48

what would be wrong is to take the

approach of the opposition and say

0:35:480:35:52

we will agree to any deal regardless

of what it is. We have do look at

0:35:520:35:58

all eventualities, and make sure we

are prepared for all eventualities.

0:35:580:36:04

Does my right honourable friend

agree with me that the message from

0:36:040:36:08

the doom mongers is the British

public have given their verdict, and

0:36:080:36:11

expect Parliament to deliver, and

the doom mongers should recognise we

0:36:110:36:17

are the fifth strongest economy in

the world. Our population is

0:36:170:36:21

significantly more than 15 EU

countries put together, and it is

0:36:210:36:26

high time they started talking up

Britain, rather than talking us

0:36:260:36:29

down.

My honourable friend is right.

The opposition benches refuse to see

0:36:290:36:39

any of the positive things that are

happening in our country, whether

0:36:390:36:44

it's the lowest youth unemployment

for over 13 years, whether it is the

0:36:440:36:47

highest number of start-ups the

country has seen, there are great

0:36:470:36:52

things having. Let's see more

optimism on the opposition.

0:36:520:37:00

At no point were we told that it

could cost a week, and we certainly

0:37:000:37:06

weren't told that you could make

them worse off. If it is the case,

0:37:060:37:10

as we have been told, that we will

be much better off as a result of

0:37:100:37:15

this, and as the right honourable

lady promised a moment ago, there

0:37:150:37:20

will be considerable savings. Would

she promised that the savings will

0:37:200:37:23

be used to replace those programmes

currently funded by the EU, like for

0:37:230:37:27

example, the crucial skills

programme operating in the Black

0:37:270:37:32

Country.

There will be savings once we leave

0:37:320:37:39

the European Union. I have already

made that clear. We want to make

0:37:390:37:42

sure that they are spent in the best

interests of everybody in the UK to

0:37:420:37:48

make our country as successful as it

possibly can be.

0:37:480:37:50

So Henry Bellingham.

The Chief

Secretary will be very aware that

0:37:500:37:56

both her constituents and mine voted

overwhelmingly to leave. We'll see

0:37:560:38:01

also agree, and does she feel on the

ground that most people now want to

0:38:010:38:04

get on with Brexit, but also expect

the UK to be fair, generous and

0:38:040:38:10

magnanimous, so long as the

financials at it is contingent on a

0:38:100:38:12

free-trade deal?

As my honourable

friend points out, the people of

0:38:120:38:19

Norfolk are fair-minded people, they

want to see the referendum result

0:38:190:38:23

respected, they want to see us

honour our commitments to the

0:38:230:38:30

European Union, but they want to see

it in such a way that is fair for

0:38:300:38:33

Britain, fair for British taxpayers,

and make sure we get the best

0:38:330:38:38

possible deal.

Mr Stephen Dowty.

These figures are

0:38:380:38:43

astronomical, is it not the case

that the British public already

0:38:430:38:45

paying for the costs of this Dodt's

Brexit approach in the form of the 3

0:38:450:38:50

billion that was announced in the

budget to be spent on Brexit

0:38:500:38:53

contingencies. 700 million has

already been shelled out, should

0:38:530:38:56

people have been told that before

the referendum?

I do think it is

0:38:560:39:01

completely irresponsible of the

opposition to suggest that we should

0:39:010:39:05

not prepare for all eventualities.

It would be disgraceful for the

0:39:050:39:12

government not to do that. It would

not be the proper action of a

0:39:120:39:15

responsible government.

Mr Peter Bone.

For the first time in

0:39:150:39:23

my parliamentary career, I'm going

to agree with the honourable member

0:39:230:39:25

for Bolsover. He's absolutely right,

the 60 odd percent of the people in

0:39:250:39:30

Wellingborough who voted to leave

will want to know what we are doing

0:39:300:39:36

with £60 billion, they would want it

spent on the NHS, social care and

0:39:360:39:40

defence. They would not want it

given to the European Union. Would

0:39:400:39:46

the Minister agree, such a move

would be betraying the trust of the

0:39:460:39:50

British people?

The money that we've been reading

0:39:500:39:59

about in the press is speculation.

These negotiations are ongoing, the

0:39:590:40:04

discussion is ongoing, and we want

to secure value for money for the

0:40:040:40:10

British taxpayer. It's in our

interests to secure a long-term

0:40:100:40:14

economic partnership with the

European Union, but we will not be

0:40:140:40:19

paying over money until everything

is agreed.

Mr Speaker, page 25 of

0:40:190:40:28

the Governor's brand-new industrial

strategy doctrine states the

0:40:280:40:32

governed are seeking a transition...

sorry, and impermanent Haitian

0:40:320:40:36

period of around two years. Does

this reported deal include provision

0:40:360:40:40

for paying for an extended deal

beyond two years?

These negotiations

0:40:400:40:47

are taking place at the moment. We

want to secure a reasonable

0:40:470:40:52

transition deal, but we have to know

what the future relationship is

0:40:520:40:57

going to be like before we enter

into that transition deal, because

0:40:570:41:02

the British public would not accept

the can being kicked down the road,

0:41:020:41:06

they want to know we are leaving the

European Union.

Mr Richard Graham.

0:41:060:41:13

The greatest risk to the new

partnership that both the UK and EU

0:41:130:41:18

want is that the EU makes such

unreasonable demands that no British

0:41:180:41:23

Government could accept on the wrong

assumption that this House will

0:41:230:41:28

never vote for no deal. Does my

right honourable friend agree with

0:41:280:41:32

me that all members, who want a good

meal like the members for Nottingham

0:41:320:41:36

East, Dudley North, Wolverhampton

South East and Cardiff South should

0:41:360:41:40

make it absolutely clear to their

constituents that they do not

0:41:400:41:43

subscribe to the ludicrous idea that

any deal is better than no deal.

0:41:430:41:49

I fear that the members opposite

have not made that logical leap yet,

0:41:490:41:55

but I'm sure my honourable friend's

question will have helped them

0:41:550:41:59

reconsider in their own minds.

Extraordinary behaviour. Quite

0:41:590:42:08

extraordinary behaviour. It was good

of you to drop in on us.

0:42:080:42:21

Can she name a single aspect or any

moments in any aspect of the

0:42:210:42:27

negotiations so far in which the

government has gone head-to-head

0:42:270:42:32

with the EU 27 on an issue on which

they have competing ideas about what

0:42:320:42:40

to do and have come out on top? Or

is this yet another example of the

0:42:400:42:44

government crumbling and facing up

to the reality of leaving the EU?

0:42:440:42:49

We are making continuous progress in

our negotiations with the EU, and of

0:42:490:42:57

course, in any negotiation, there

has to be give and take from both

0:42:570:43:00

sides, and that is exactly what is

happening. But it would be wrong to

0:43:000:43:06

expose the details of those

negotiations at this stage.

0:43:060:43:10

Mr Philip Hollobone.

In a divorce,

the assets are divided. That in

0:43:100:43:16

today's money, in real terms, our

net could abuse and to the EU over

0:43:160:43:21

the whole lifetime of our membership

amounts to £209 billion, will she

0:43:210:43:26

make sure that we get our fair share

of the EU's assets when we leave?

0:43:260:43:32

I can assure my honourable friend

that that consideration is part of

0:43:320:43:37

our discussions.

Before making a big decision, it's

0:43:370:43:45

generally sensible to enquire about

the price. Most people would be

0:43:450:43:48

staggered to learn that the average

household in this country is going

0:43:480:43:52

to be asked to stump up between

£2000 in £3000 to pay for this. Can

0:43:520:43:57

the government tell us what plans

they have to tell people about this

0:43:570:44:00

Bill they are facing, and ask them

whether they think it's a good use

0:44:000:44:03

of their money?

The honourable

gentleman needs to look at both

0:44:030:44:09

sides of the account, because we

will not be paying ongoing vast sums

0:44:090:44:14

into the EU and we are at the

moment. It is deliberately big

0:44:140:44:21

picture.

0:44:210:44:28

Order. Statement of the Secretary of

State for Transport. Secretary Chris

0:44:280:44:33

Grayling.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I

like to make a step into the House

0:44:330:44:38

about our plans for Britain.

Railways. -- a statement to the

0:44:380:44:42

House. It was against the backdrop

of what any people would regard as

0:44:420:44:50

terminal decline. They had been cut

and line closures, passenger numbers

0:44:500:44:55

have been falling steadily since the

Second World War. Privatisation

0:44:550:45:00

sparked a remarkable turnaround in

Lee Rowley's fortunes. Over 1.5

0:45:000:45:07

million more trains. Passenger

demand has doubled. Other countries

0:45:070:45:13

are now adopting Great Britain's

model in their markets. We have

0:45:130:45:19

about upon the biggest rail

modernisation programmes and the

0:45:190:45:22

Victorian age. In addition to

Government funding, billions of

0:45:220:45:28

pounds from the private sector is

being used to update services across

0:45:280:45:33

the country. Franchises are making

an increasing conservation to the

0:45:330:45:36

public purse. The real renaissance

we see today is the direct result of

0:45:360:45:44

the partnership between the public

and private sectors. This

0:45:440:45:46

partnership has delivered benefits

for passengers from more than 20

0:45:460:45:50

years. This success has created its

own challenges, the number of

0:45:500:45:55

services has increased and the

network has become more congested.

0:45:550:46:02

He will be as operating on the edge

of what it can cope with. It carries

0:46:020:46:09

more passengers today than it did in

the heyday of the 1920s on a network

0:46:090:46:13

that is a fraction of the size. This

can cause significant frustration

0:46:130:46:20

for the travelling public. This as

well as Jack and announced plans for

0:46:200:46:25

-- it should be a process of

evolution and the revolution and

0:46:250:46:32

that the exact approach may differ

from our written every. The outcome

0:46:320:46:35

must be the same, a railway

predominately run by a local team of

0:46:350:46:42

people with a commitment to the

smooth running of the timetable. The

0:46:420:46:46

planning of Central press,

responding to incidents underline

0:46:460:46:49

and communicating with passengers.

-- central repairers. This

0:46:490:46:56

publication, Connecting People, a

strategic vision for railways. There

0:46:560:47:06

is a relentless focus on passengers,

economies and communities they

0:47:060:47:10

serve. It represents the biggest

change in the railways since

0:47:100:47:16

privatisation. Although we have

achieved significant structural

0:47:160:47:24

improvements, the document explains

pounds to go much further. It will

0:47:240:47:27

deliver real benefits and franchises

will be run by a joint team, made up

0:47:270:47:36

of staff from Network Rail and a new

alliance to vector. This will make

0:47:360:47:40

the world a more alive for

passengers. -- the railway more

0:47:400:47:45

reliable. Today, Mr Speaker, I

issued the invitation to tender for

0:47:450:47:54

the next south-eastern franchise.

This will amongst other rich things

0:47:540:48:00

-- either things provide more

trains. A high-frequency turn up and

0:48:000:48:04

go timetable as a problem that,

which will boost capacity and

0:48:040:48:09

provide a better service for

passengers. As part of this

0:48:090:48:12

unification of track and drink, the

day-to-day operations in the

0:48:120:48:15

south-eastern network will be run by

a joint team rugby a new alliance

0:48:150:48:20

director, hitting both the tack and

train operations. We will introduce

0:48:200:48:27

a joint team approach, bringing more

benefits to passengers. Honourable

0:48:270:48:30

members will know that these calls

me and has had its challenges in

0:48:300:48:34

recent times and I intend to take a

different approach. -- the east

0:48:340:48:42

coast railway has had his

challenges. It partnership between

0:48:420:48:47

public and private sector will

operate under one management, one

0:48:470:48:51

single leader, with a leading role

in planning the future of root and

0:48:510:48:57

meeting challenges. Bringing the

prospective train operators in will

0:48:570:49:03

make sure that passenger needs are

better represented in the process.

0:49:030:49:07

Whilst we run an opposition to

appoint the east coast partnership

0:49:070:49:11

members, we are in discussions with

the east coast... I want the

0:49:110:49:20

passenger to be central to train

operator strategies. In some parts

0:49:200:49:25

of the network, this means

introducing smaller train companies

0:49:250:49:27

and today I am and using a

constitutional and a Great Western

0:49:270:49:33

franchise to make sure that it is

best meeting the needs passengers in

0:49:330:49:39

the 2020s and beyond. -- the needs

of passengers. Sure to be a more

0:49:390:49:45

local focus? Will also bring the

Thames Link great Northern Frank

0:49:450:49:53

Scott... When the two factors are

put together, this was intended to

0:49:530:49:59

help. This is now near completion.

Despite the improvements in railway

0:49:590:50:06

since privatisation, we are still

some way away from achieving the

0:50:060:50:11

modern, high performance, low cost

industry we all want to see.

0:50:110:50:18

SHOUTING that is why we must

continue to invest in the

0:50:180:50:21

welterweight and maximise.

Continue to deliver the biggest

0:50:210:50:27

investment programme in our Railways

since the steel age. Something the

0:50:270:50:31

party opposite never get when they

were in Government. Mr Speaker,

0:50:310:50:36

getting to grips with the industry

structure will go hand-in-hand with

0:50:360:50:40

investment in infrastructure. We did

me a capacity to cope with growing

0:50:400:50:44

demand and links to support economic

growth. -- we need more capacity to

0:50:440:50:48

cope. We need faster more

comfortable journeys, room for tens

0:50:480:50:54

of thousands more passengers, every

single train in the north of England

0:50:540:50:58

replaced as new or brand-new. Again

a change we never sought when the

0:50:580:51:03

party opposite was in power.

SHOUTING. I intend to invest around

0:51:030:51:10

£3 billion in upgrading the

trans-Pennine brick, delivering

0:51:100:51:14

faster journey times and improved

capacity between the great cities of

0:51:140:51:18

Leeds, York and Manchester.

In the south, flagship projects such

0:51:180:51:22

as Crossrail and Thameslink I know

-- I know underpinning economic

0:51:220:51:30

growth. North and south will be

brought closer together and benefits

0:51:300:51:33

for people across the country. A new

building for a new era for real. It

0:51:330:51:38

is bold and ambitious but if it

weren't for Britain faith in the

0:51:380:51:43

power of rail to transform this

country, we would have no railways

0:51:430:51:46

at all. Our mission rejects the

mentality of decline that

0:51:460:51:52

characterised the railway and latter

half of the past century. Recently

0:51:520:51:59

introduced Government funding of

billions of pounds. Part of overall

0:51:590:52:09

suspected spent £49 billion, Mr

Speaker. There will be either far to

0:52:090:52:15

work and improvements. Passengers

value reliability more than anything

0:52:150:52:18

and this commitment will help

deliver that. We also want to see

0:52:180:52:22

the creation of new connections. We

want to establish the east-west rail

0:52:220:52:26

company to restore the lost liberty

not Oxford and -- the lowest rate

0:52:260:52:31

between Oxford and Cambridge. I

expect construction to begin next

0:52:310:52:38

summer. We will look at other

opportunities to find out what has

0:52:380:52:44

been lost in the 60s and 70s. In

particular, with the unlucky -- the

0:52:440:52:53

unlock the potential for housing.

Passengers want faster improvements

0:52:530:52:57

in the day-to-day experience

travelling. We also want this and

0:52:570:53:00

bring something about it. We want to

see smart ticketing across all of

0:53:000:53:05

the network by the end of 2018. We

are improving the arrangements for

0:53:050:53:11

compensation when things go wrong,

including establishing a passenger

0:53:110:53:15

ombudsman. We are working with

industry to extend the benefits of

0:53:150:53:19

discarded real travel to ensure that

everybody aged 16-30 can access

0:53:190:53:26

concessions. We are committed to

improving the accessibility of the

0:53:260:53:30

network and delivering a modern

customer experience is open to all.

0:53:300:53:34

Mr Speaker, and only party opposite

doesn't believe this, but

0:53:340:53:39

privatisation body revolution to our

railways. This is why there are

0:53:390:53:42

twice as many passengers as there

were 20 years ago. Now there is a

0:53:420:53:48

chance to build on this success.

Expand the network, modernising the

0:53:480:53:54

experience of the customer, opening

up for new innovation. We have a

0:53:540:53:58

vision of a writer most will be used

to its full potential within a

0:53:580:54:04

private -- between the private

sector and public sector. We are

0:54:040:54:08

taking action to make this a

reality. I am making copies

0:54:080:54:14

available in both houses and the

documents are on the Department for

0:54:140:54:20

Transport's website.

Andy McDonald.

Thank you. As like to thank the

0:54:200:54:29

secretary of state with the advanced

orders of the statement and the

0:54:290:54:32

contents have already been well

drilled in the media. The Secretary

0:54:320:54:35

of State and I can be on the need

real has for investment and new

0:54:350:54:40

capacity. I'm delighted to see that

he has picked up on Labour's

0:54:400:54:45

manifesto commitments to reopen

punch lines. The problem, Mr

0:54:450:54:48

Speaker, is that the current system

and the structure of the railways

0:54:480:54:51

doesn't send -- lent itself will. --

to reopen branch lines. The office

0:54:510:55:03

for a rail and road said that

Network Rail had to make efficiency

0:55:030:55:07

savings of 80%, the law are our got

this wrong and the railway has

0:55:070:55:15

suffered the consequences. We are

where we are on rail and air brake

0:55:150:55:18

that the secretary of state has not

run out of ideas what to do with the

0:55:180:55:23

railways. Labour has a solution

which I will refer to momentarily.

0:55:230:55:29

SHOUTING.

The secretary of state

proposes an alliance between crack

0:55:290:55:36

and train a a few years ago. This

was done in a few years ago between

0:55:360:55:40

Stagecoach and Network Rail in the

south-west. Stagecoach pulled out

0:55:400:55:46

because it was too expensive for

them. Trains on the east coast may

0:55:460:55:50

be labelled Virgin Trains but they

are actually Stagecoach. What makes

0:55:500:55:56

the secretary of state think that

this alliance with Stagecoach will

0:55:560:55:59

be any different. Gigi was always

going to be broken up at the end of

0:55:590:56:03

the contract and disaster 21, so

this isn't news. It's a calamitous

0:56:030:56:08

oversight of the contract only add

to the origin need for the whole

0:56:080:56:14

thing to be put out of its misery

for the sake of the passengers. Only

0:56:140:56:17

adds to the. The new privately

funded line will operate with

0:56:170:56:26

polluting diesel trains. What about

the quality? Labour supports

0:56:260:56:30

reopening lines but without

financial backing the Secretary of

0:56:300:56:34

State's proposals mean nothing in

reality. It's always -- it's all

0:56:340:56:40

well and good to reverse the cut but

what about reversing the Grayling

0:56:400:56:47

cuts? The cuts to the Midwestern,

railway and Northern Railways. The

0:56:470:56:54

Department of Health and we'll bring

-- the reopening between County

0:56:540:57:02

Durham and play. If it's all right

with him, I prefer applied and

0:57:020:57:06

Ashington stay in Northumberland. --

I prefer four replies and Ashington

0:57:060:57:13

to stay. He offers nothing for

commuters on overcrowded trains,

0:57:130:57:18

facing a fee hike of 3.4% in

January, 337.7% rises since 2010.

0:57:180:57:25

The truth is that the railway is

broken, no matter of changing the

0:57:250:57:31

furniture will rectify this. Today's

and unspent as a total smoke screen.

0:57:310:57:39

-- announcement is a total smoke

screen. The east coast franchise has

0:57:390:57:44

felt again and the taxpayer will

bail it out. Markets don't lie and

0:57:440:57:48

the Stagecoach share price has risen

by 12% this morning, following the

0:57:480:57:55

news that the secretary of state has

let them off the hook for hundreds

0:57:550:57:59

of millions of pounds by ending the

franchise early, he's moved the

0:57:590:58:03

goalposts to suit Grayling. --

research Stagecoach. Easter fun

0:58:030:58:10

everybody but the sector. -- he is

tough on everybody but the private

0:58:100:58:17

sector. Conservative Pogba put it

back out on the market by 2015. This

0:58:170:58:24

felt again. The Government's

proposals are Rover do gracing -- I

0:58:240:58:31

know windowdressing. Only Labour has

the vision and courage to deliver

0:58:310:58:35

the railway that the public

deserves, the public want public

0:58:350:58:40

ownership of the railways at the

next Labour Government will deliver

0:58:400:58:42

it.

Well, fortunately this country

will be waiting a long time for this

0:58:420:58:48

to happen. Mr Speaker, what they

really wanted to take us back to the

0:58:480:58:53

days of British rail and what they

haven't done is expected as how they

0:58:530:58:58

would pay for all the new trains

that are being currently funded by

0:58:580:59:02

the private sector to pay for longer

trains, better services all around

0:59:020:59:06

the country. They haven't told us

that the public and one well we -- a

0:59:060:59:15

public than well they would mean it

would be competing with the health

0:59:150:59:20

service, etc. To go back to British

Rail is no answer to the

0:59:200:59:25

improvements that this country

needs. What is different is what is

0:59:250:59:31

happening in the railway. Devolution

of the railways. Local

0:59:310:59:35

decision-making and local budgets

are important to making these local

0:59:350:59:40

partnership is possible. That is a

change that we are making right now.

0:59:400:59:43

It is the right thing for the

future. When he talks about duty,

0:59:430:59:48

can override the House of the

Independent report which showed that

0:59:480:59:53

the problems on duty of a

substantial indeed, down to the

0:59:530:59:57

actions of its friends in the

unions. That conduct was, Mr

0:59:571:00:02

Speaker, unacceptable. The Labour

Party's internal support for the

1:00:021:00:08

destruction by three to passengers

is unacceptable. -- disruption by

1:00:081:00:14

the unions to passengers.

1:00:141:00:23

He may have missed the announcement

in the budget of £2 billion more for

1:00:251:00:31

investment in transport in our

cities, he may have missed the

1:00:311:00:34

announcement of £47 billion for

investment in the railways in the

1:00:341:00:37

next five years, we will indeed fund

investment and expansion of the

1:00:371:00:41

railways, because that is needed. He

asked the question about

1:00:411:00:45

electrification, and I say again, we

will have more flexible technology,

1:00:451:00:49

it is more of a priority to provide

more services and routes for

1:00:491:00:53

passengers than to save one minute

on the journey time to Sheffield,

1:00:531:00:57

and no minutes on the journey time

to Swansea. I am doing what we need

1:00:571:01:00

to do, to deliver better journeys,

better journey times, new trains the

1:01:001:01:05

passengers. That above all is what

they want. They are not worried

1:01:051:01:08

about how the train is powered, they

want a nice new train that gets them

1:01:081:01:12

to the right place. That is what we

are doing. He raised the question

1:01:121:01:18

all bluster Ashington, which I am

looking at, and has real potential

1:01:181:01:21

to expand the expansion we are

already making. In Newcastle upon

1:01:211:01:27

Tyne, it is an example of the

Governor's commitment to the

1:01:271:01:30

north-east. He talked about what we

are doing for commuters, but all

1:01:301:01:35

around the country, we and the

private sector are delivering new

1:01:351:01:38

trains and longer trains to create

more space for people that travel on

1:01:381:01:41

crowded rail lines of the day. Let's

be clear to the House, as we bring

1:01:411:01:50

this franchise to a close on the

east coast, and moved to new

1:01:501:01:53

arrangements, no one is going to get

any bailout at all. Absolutely

1:01:531:01:59

clear, Stagecoach will meet in for

their commitments made to the

1:01:591:02:03

government as part of this contract.

That is what is going to happen.

1:02:031:02:10

I warmly welcome the commitment in

the strategy document to the East

1:02:101:02:18

West Railway line through my

constituency. I welcome the

1:02:181:02:23

announcement that construction will

start soon. May I ask my honourable

1:02:231:02:28

friend to expand on when we will

have the western section and

1:02:281:02:32

running, and how it will field into

the national infrastructure

1:02:321:02:39

commissions recommendations.

My honourable friend is right. This

1:02:391:02:42

is an important project, we have put

ahead construction plans for next

1:02:421:02:50

summer. My goal is to have the first

trains running on that route by the

1:02:501:02:54

end of 2021.

Alan Browne.

Thank you Mr Speaker. I

1:02:541:02:59

would like to thank the Secretary of

State for his statement. I have to

1:02:591:03:05

thank him for a damp squib. Given

the media coverage last night a

1:03:051:03:08

possible reversal of cuts, I wanted

commitments in this statement. There

1:03:081:03:14

is nothing other than a throwaway

line. The price of everything and

1:03:141:03:22

the value of nothing, if this

attitude continues, the Secretary of

1:03:221:03:28

State 's adherence to privatisation,

what he needs to remember, already

1:03:281:03:35

there are four foreign state owned

rail companies operational in the

1:03:351:03:38

existing UK franchises. If it is

good enough foreign state owned

1:03:381:03:43

company is, it is good enough for UK

state companies to run these

1:03:431:03:48

franchises. Hopefully, he supports

the Scottish Governor's move to

1:03:481:03:51

bring a public sector bid in

Scotland.

1:03:511:03:55

He trumpets the turnaround in rail

since privatisation. What he doesn't

1:03:551:04:00

say is that is driven by a 90%

increase in public sector

1:04:001:04:04

investment, and a real terms fare

increase of a quarter. That is where

1:04:041:04:08

the real investment turnaround came

from. His real massive plan is about

1:04:081:04:15

creating alliances and effectively

subdividing Network Rail. I have the

1:04:151:04:18

following questions... what is going

to be the overall governance to

1:04:181:04:24

prevent a reliance conflict? Since

he is such a fan of devolution, will

1:04:241:04:29

he devolved Network Rail to

Scotland? Who will be funding the

1:04:291:04:34

new 26-30 year old Railcard? Wilbur

Smart meter ticket system

1:04:341:04:41

automatically provide consumers with

the cheapest fares? If he is looking

1:04:411:04:45

at reopening lines, will he stop the

sale of rail assets? He will be

1:04:451:04:53

where the Scottish Government built

the biggest new line in the UK for

1:04:531:04:58

over 100 years, will he look at

reconnecting Carlisle to the borders

1:04:581:05:01

rail? And finally, what are the

funding implications for Scotland?

1:05:011:05:05

Will it be reviewed, the gap of £600

million, and advise on that as well?

1:05:051:05:19

Madam Deputy Speaker, a mix of

questions, let me take them in turn.

1:05:191:05:23

He asked about the devolution

question. It remains the position of

1:05:231:05:27

the government that we will follow

the recommendations that were

1:05:271:05:31

brought as part of the broader

devolution package, the Scottish

1:05:311:05:35

Governor would be was possible for

franchising, but not infrastructure.

1:05:351:05:40

The SNP needs to demonstrate they

can do a decent job in government

1:05:401:05:43

with the powers it's got, rather

than asking for more powers. He

1:05:431:05:47

asked about the Railcard, that is

something we are working through

1:05:471:05:51

with the industry. It may be the

revenues provide a self funding

1:05:511:05:56

venture, but it is something the

Treasury has underwritten in the

1:05:561:06:00

budget process. He asked a question

about the length of fairness, the

1:06:001:06:04

level of fares and the cheapest

options. I want a system of Smart

1:06:041:06:09

ticketing on our railways. For

shorter journeys, in future, we end

1:06:091:06:13

up with the sort of pay as a system

that we have in London, tap in and

1:06:131:06:18

tap out as you go. For longer

journeys, we will have ticketing

1:06:181:06:21

based on mobile phones and bar

codes. We are working towards those

1:06:211:06:25

objectives. He talked about the sale

of assets, there are times when

1:06:251:06:29

assets are not needed. They can be

sold and money is put back into the

1:06:291:06:33

rail line. That is the right thing

to do. But there are assets to

1:06:331:06:36

protect in the future. Assets that I

wish had been built over now,

1:06:361:06:41

because there are routes would like

to see we opened which are more

1:06:411:06:43

difficult as a result. But we will

protect the assets we need. I

1:06:431:06:47

applaud the Scottish Governor for

what it has done on the Borders

1:06:471:06:49

railway, it is a good project. It

has made a positive difference to

1:06:491:06:53

that part of Scotland. I am happy to

talk about doing more in the future.

1:06:531:06:58

He asked about the funding

settlement. As I have said before in

1:06:581:07:01

this House, the funding settlement

for Scotland and rail is based on

1:07:011:07:05

the following former, normally the

SNP does not argue against the

1:07:051:07:09

Barnett Formula. They cannot have

their cake and eat it.

1:07:091:07:14

I very much welcome the news that

the GTR franchise is to be broken

1:07:141:07:18

up, it is too big to be managed, has

a management incapable of managing

1:07:181:07:22

it. Given that it has frequently

been unable to live up to its

1:07:221:07:27

commitments, why do we have to wait

until 2021 to get a competent

1:07:271:07:30

operator in charge?

Madam Deputy is bigger, the real

1:07:301:07:35

thing we have got to achieve is to

get through the rest of the

1:07:351:07:38

Thameslink investment programme. --

Madam Deputy Speaker.

1:07:381:07:50

I would not wish to see us try to

destabilise things in that period,

1:07:501:07:55

once that is done, we need to make

the change.

Lilian Greenwood.

1:07:551:07:59

Alliance Singh and joint teams can

achieve dialogue, but this is not a

1:07:591:08:07

fundamentally different proposition

to what has happened before and what

1:08:071:08:09

is happening on certain segments of

the railway now. The factors that

1:08:091:08:19

contribute, performance regimes and

financial incentives don't appear to

1:08:191:08:22

have been addressed. Will the

Secretary of State set out the

1:08:221:08:25

specific steps to address the

shortcomings to have a railway that

1:08:251:08:34

drives coordinated performance, cost

reductions and improved reliability?

1:08:341:08:41

Madam Deputy Speaker, we are in the

alliance areas and elsewhere moving

1:08:411:08:44

to a lined performance incentives,

and that work is happening on great

1:08:441:08:50

Western, where we have KPIs. Network

Rail has an incentive to look after

1:08:501:08:58

passengers, as they have not done in

the past. The KPIs will be the same,

1:08:581:09:04

because one team will do this. That

is one benefit of having somebody in

1:09:041:09:08

charge, having a joint round, joint

planning budgets, joint KPIs within

1:09:081:09:13

the same team, and that is what is

different to the past.

1:09:131:09:19

Can I welcome the Secretary of

State's statement, and this

1:09:191:09:22

government's continued investment in

the rail. He will be aware that

1:09:221:09:30

concerns have been raised about the

break-up of the great Western

1:09:301:09:34

franchise, so could I see kids

reassurance that any proposals that

1:09:341:09:37

come forward will not leave Devon

and Cornwall isolated, and will only

1:09:371:09:41

be introduced if they are in the

best interest of improving services

1:09:411:09:44

to and from the south-west, and

provide value for money for the

1:09:441:09:49

passenger?

Madam Deputy is weaker,

let's be clear, I do not envisage a

1:09:491:09:54

Devon and Cornwall alone franchise,

that is not part of the plan. There

1:09:541:09:57

is a legitimate question I am

putting, which is, should we go back

1:09:571:10:01

to what was Wessex trains, eight

franchise with a quarter of the

1:10:011:10:06

south-west, that does regional

services around the south-west,

1:10:061:10:09

which could theoretically do

long-distance services to Paddington

1:10:091:10:12

from Penzance, down that route. It

is a question. There are pros and

1:10:121:10:17

cons, this is a consultation to ask

the south-west what it thinks. It is

1:10:171:10:22

no more or less than that. I want to

get the right answer for the

1:10:221:10:24

south-west.

Can I welcome today's

big message that our railways work

1:10:241:10:32

better when the track and train

operated together.

1:10:321:10:41

For my constituents of Surbiton,

however, we look at the urgent

1:10:431:10:46

safety case for a new staircase at

Surbiton train station, the

1:10:461:10:54

platforms have now become

overcrowded during the evening peak.

1:10:541:10:59

Madam David is bigger, I am grateful

to him for his support for moving

1:10:591:11:04

back to the operational track and

train, I am happy to talk to pick

1:11:041:11:09

that up with him if he wants to

catch me off-line.

Martin Vickers.

1:11:091:11:16

I welcome the Secretary of State's

statement, and could I clarify, when

1:11:161:11:21

he refers to smaller railway

operators, is he referencing open

1:11:211:11:26

access operators, and if that is the

case, does he foresee that will lead

1:11:261:11:30

to an extension of services such as

in my own area of northern

1:11:301:11:33

Lincolnshire?

Mr Speaker...

1:11:331:11:37

Madam Eddie Speaker, I am a

supporter of open access, it plays

1:11:371:11:40

an important part. -- Madam Deputy

's beaker.

1:11:401:11:50

I expect as we move express trains

off the roots, there will be more

1:11:521:11:59

scope for open access, not less. It

is not my ambition to see that

1:11:591:12:07

changed in coming years.

The East Coast line was run I a

1:12:071:12:13

not-for-profit company familiars and

made a profit to the Treasury.

1:12:131:12:16

That's not what I want to ask you

for, I want to ask you about the

1:12:161:12:20

link I have been campaigning for 30

years to reopen. Now it is going to

1:12:201:12:25

be on the cards, I want to tell my

constituents when it is going to

1:12:251:12:32

happen, I do want it to be 30 years,

because I will be dead!

Madam Deputy

1:12:321:12:39

Speaker, I will do my best to ensure

he does not have to work that long.

1:12:391:12:42

It is one of the routes where I

think there is a real short-term

1:12:421:12:47

potential. I will not put a date on

it today, but integrating it with

1:12:471:12:52

the Newcastle upon Tyne Metro makes

a lot of sense, and it is a project

1:12:521:12:55

we will now be pushing forward with

the feasibility being planned for.

1:12:551:13:01

We are looking at what, when, and

how, I will never give him an exact

1:13:011:13:08

date.

Madam Deputy Speaker,

Eastleigh is an historic railway

1:13:081:13:16

town and transport issues really

matter in my thriving but getting

1:13:161:13:21

more busy uncongested constituency

but also hosts Southampton Airport.

1:13:211:13:27

East-West connectivity between

Portsmouth and Southampton on a

1:13:271:13:30

railway line over an hour, could the

Secretary of State and it working

1:13:301:13:35

across departments to make sure

there is a joined up approach for

1:13:351:13:40

constituencies who are providing

housing but also are blighted by air

1:13:401:13:43

pollution and congestion and a lack

of investment historically in

1:13:431:13:47

railway lines.

I give my honourable

friend that assurance. It is really

1:13:471:13:53

important we make sure, as we seek

to develop more housing, that

1:13:531:13:56

infrastructure is in place to cope

without whether it is road, rail or

1:13:561:14:00

cycle routes, or whether it is

different forms of public transport

1:14:001:14:03

in different parts of the country. I

give her an assurance that both I

1:14:031:14:07

and my right honourable friend the

Communities Secretary in charge of

1:14:071:14:10

the housing infrastructure fund will

both look very supportive to do in

1:14:101:14:14

the parts of the country and how we

can provide info structure for them.

1:14:141:14:23

The idea of breaking up the great

Western franchise, because of the

1:14:231:14:27

loss of mobility to subsidise the

more expensive bits in the

1:14:271:14:34

south-west. Could I ask how much

extra tax payers money he is handing

1:14:341:14:39

over to Stagecoach because of the

government's botched and ideological

1:14:391:14:43

you driven re-privatisation of what

was a perfectly good and profitable

1:14:431:14:46

publicly owned company.

1:14:461:14:49

The answer at this stage, it's not

my intention to hand over money to

1:14:491:14:55

do things, my intention is to get

this railway line in preparation

1:14:551:15:00

phase for the establishment of the

Spanish about with the case of the

1:15:001:15:05

Southwest franchise, this is a

consultation, two options, we can

1:15:051:15:10

continue with the great Western

franchise as it is create a second

1:15:101:15:14

franchise focused on Southwest. Both

arguments, I'm committed to having

1:15:141:15:19

more accountability and better

transport in the Southwest, which is

1:15:191:15:22

why we are doing the new A303 but

this an open consultation.

I

1:15:221:15:33

welcomed the statement. I totally

support the notification of --

1:15:331:15:39

reunification of train and track,

it's important when we have rails

1:15:391:15:43

problems on the real that the two

operators can argue about who is to

1:15:431:15:50

blame when our commuters with a

single body to point a finger at.

1:15:501:15:57

Will my honourable friend confirmed

there will be simpler accountability

1:15:571:16:00

in the structures and when the

franchise expires in Greater Anglia,

1:16:001:16:05

we have the opportunity to look at

this sort of regional arrangements.

1:16:051:16:11

I can give this assurance and it

should spread across the whole rail

1:16:111:16:15

network where you have

accountability, clear integration,

1:16:151:16:19

clear working when something goes

wrong and planning for maintenance

1:16:191:16:23

work as to how you deal with the

services when it's happening, this

1:16:231:16:26

is a really important part to make

sure the railway works for the

1:16:261:16:29

future.

1:16:291:16:31

Why didn't the Secretary of State

use this opportunity to say that

1:16:341:16:39

there was going to be

electrification of the whole of the

1:16:391:16:43

Midland line instead of stopping

somewhere in Northampton to suit the

1:16:431:16:49

commuter Travelers into London? The

other business is that people in my

1:16:491:16:56

constituency have been asking for a

meeting with him to try to put an

1:16:561:17:07

alternative to the spear that going

to wreck 30 houses in my area, when

1:17:071:17:11

will he answered a letter, he can

tell me now.

1:17:111:17:14

On the latter point, we have an

extended an invitation to have that

1:17:161:17:19

meeting. That will make sure we told

to his office this afternoon and fix

1:17:191:17:24

a date. In terms of the Midland

mainline, we are about to embark and

1:17:241:17:28

are in the early stages of the

biggest investment programme since

1:17:281:17:33

the 1870s and will mean faster

journeys, brand-new trains, we can

1:17:331:17:39

deliver those new trains in 2021 or

2022. We could wait more for the new

1:17:391:17:45

trains, we could spend £1 billion

more and we would do is save one

1:17:451:17:49

minute on the journey times. I don't

think that's the good use of

1:17:491:17:53

taxpayer's money.

I would also like

to welcome my right honourable

1:17:531:18:01

friend's statement this afternoon. I

like to ask and what steps are being

1:18:011:18:09

taken to improve stations and

disabled access and stations?

I

1:18:091:18:16

absolutely sure my honourable

friend's concern and the real

1:18:161:18:21

minister has made this a particular

part of his work to make sure we

1:18:211:18:26

improve the rail network, we will

continue that funding and control

1:18:261:18:30

period six and the opportunity will

be there for individual stations and

1:18:301:18:33

areas to come forward to as to how

we can do better in and challenge

1:18:331:18:39

the real industry faces.

It's a year

and a half since the of State

1:18:391:18:46

responded to calls to look into

extending the real really delivered

1:18:461:18:51

on time and under budget by the

Scottish Government to Carlisle and

1:18:511:18:54

she said she was interested in

looking into it. Will he now take

1:18:541:18:58

forward these discussions with the

Scottish Government?

I'm very happy

1:18:581:19:03

to take forward discussions and the

real Minister is meeting the Borders

1:19:031:19:07

real campaign shortly. I understand

the benefits that the project has

1:19:071:19:13

brought to the Borders.

Is my right

honourable friend aware that on the

1:19:131:19:20

Isle of Wight there might be

interested in extending the island

1:19:201:19:22

lying to the beautiful seaside town

and the county town of Newport? That

1:19:221:19:29

can be made possible due to the

foresight of the railway in securing

1:19:291:19:33

track. Will there be money available

for feasibility studies to assess

1:19:331:19:37

the cost and benefit of opening up

for economic regeneration purposes

1:19:371:19:43

former branch lines closed in the

60s?

We will be publishing in the

1:19:431:19:49

New Year a new process for

evaluating and moving into

1:19:491:19:52

development of new projects and I

will be very happy to talk to my

1:19:521:19:55

honourable friend about the Isle of

Wight and how that process will work

1:19:551:19:58

and how he can get his project into

consideration.

I have written to the

1:19:581:20:06

Secretary of State about coastal

stations in my constituency but only

1:20:061:20:12

one train stopped there and I were,

if we are going to open new real way

1:20:121:20:16

stations, we must have trains

stopping at them. So will the

1:20:161:20:23

Secretary of State agree to meet

with the railway north to talk about

1:20:231:20:28

the frequency of services at coastal

fort so we can get maximum

1:20:281:20:32

development and benefit out of this

then -- development.

When a new

1:20:321:20:40

station is open it is not unusual to

start with an hourly service while

1:20:401:20:44

the passenger really builds up to

modern gross. I am delighted we are

1:20:441:20:49

able to invest in better station

services. It has been long overdue

1:20:491:20:53

for a long time.

I welcomed the

overall thrust of this plan. That is

1:20:531:21:01

probably no coincidence that current

franchise covers roughly the same

1:21:011:21:05

area the railway company did back in

the 1930s. Would he reassure me that

1:21:051:21:11

in any consideration of this it will

be services to passengers that will

1:21:111:21:15

be the top priority in particular

may the link between London

1:21:151:21:21

Paddington?

I can give an assurance

that we would want to see the

1:21:211:21:24

service is protected. What I would

say is that this is a genuine

1:21:241:21:30

consultation, I don't have a preset

to view on this and I'm relaxed and

1:21:301:21:33

want to listen to the people who

represent the Southwest and see what

1:21:331:21:36

works best with you? We will listen

and respond accordingly. There is no

1:21:361:21:45

prejudged view. We are simply asking

the question is parked on the

1:21:451:21:54

Secretary of State's U-turn of

electrifying the lead from Cardiff

1:21:541:21:58

to Swansea, at the safety

improvements part of that work and

1:21:581:22:03

including the level crossing in my

constituency. Can he set out his

1:22:031:22:06

plan for his vision for the railways

are he will cause he's dangerous

1:22:061:22:10

level crossings and while at it,

keeping a promise on highway

1:22:101:22:15

improvements in the same ten in my

constituency went to

1:22:151:22:17

electrification? The safety issue is

fundamentally important for Network

1:22:171:22:24

Rail and to have this it is really

in Europe and Network Rail has a

1:22:241:22:27

rolling programme for replacing

dangerous level crossings which will

1:22:271:22:31

continue in all circumstances. What

I would say to him as I think the

1:22:311:22:35

Welsh government, the Welsh Labour

government is reaching the same

1:22:351:22:38

conclusions which is that the

versatility of trained media don't

1:22:381:22:44

always have two get over net cables.

I caution her money talks about is

1:22:441:22:46

taking the wrong decisions he may

find that the Labour Party and we

1:22:461:22:51

find ourselves on the right track on

the way forward.

Can will welcomed

1:22:511:22:58

the announcement of the Southern and

ten Link franchise will be broken

1:22:581:23:01

up, it cannot come soon enough for

my constituents. Underlying

1:23:011:23:07

reopening, the Uckfield line, it can

be opened easily and would improve

1:23:071:23:15

connectivity to the towns on the

mainline for the first time. We have

1:23:151:23:18

private investors wanting to bid of

£15 billion to fund that, will the

1:23:181:23:24

Secretary of State use that scheme

as the first to illustrate what can

1:23:241:23:27

be done by Jamaat

I have met the

investors pursuing this project I am

1:23:271:23:34

open to doing so unwitting with

interest to see as they come back

1:23:341:23:37

with a first aid at work, I would be

delighted to see this route reopened

1:23:371:23:41

and I hope the consortium that are

pursuing this project proved to be

1:23:411:23:45

successful in what they are trying

to do.

There appears to be little

1:23:451:23:52

mention of Wales in the Secretary of

State's announcement in the great

1:23:521:23:57

Western consultation but key

services to my constituency and just

1:23:571:24:01

this morning commuters to Bristol

and beyond have yet again had to

1:24:011:24:04

highlight the chronic lack of

capacity to demand. Can the Minister

1:24:041:24:09

tell my constituents when they will

see real action and improvement?

1:24:091:24:14

Most of the responsibility of the

local services lies with the Welsh

1:24:141:24:18

government.

I'm looking forward to

seeing the outcome of the Welsh

1:24:181:24:24

government's work in delivering new

trains and delivering better

1:24:241:24:28

services from the new franchise. In

terms of what we're doing for her

1:24:281:24:32

constituency, we have

electrification programme to

1:24:321:24:36

Paddington, the investment in

intercity express trains for faster

1:24:361:24:38

and better journeys but I am

expecting and hoping we will see as

1:24:381:24:43

part of the franchise, a significant

increase in services from Cardiff

1:24:431:24:47

eastwards and one reason we are

supporting the plan for Cardiff

1:24:471:24:50

Parkway station and I hope it will

be significant to pass the franchise

1:24:501:24:55

to the connection is coming from

Cardiff to Bristol.

I found the

1:24:551:25:04

Secretary of State for his

statement. East Suffolk line which

1:25:041:25:08

runs two Ipswich dodged the bullet

and is now going from strength to

1:25:081:25:13

strength with regularly Relay

services. Can my right honourable

1:25:131:25:16

friend provide the assurance that

his improvements will provide the

1:25:161:25:20

framework for further improvements,

including a more frequent and faster

1:25:201:25:24

service?

One of the things I'm

pleased about that are doing in

1:25:241:25:28

partnership with the private sector

is the complete has formation of the

1:25:281:25:32

train service in East Anglia with

brand-new trains. Every single train

1:25:321:25:36

being replaced and more capacity for

passengers. As demand grows we will

1:25:361:25:39

have to look again at roots like his

to see if there is a need for more

1:25:391:25:44

services but in the immediate future

I hope his constituents can be

1:25:441:25:47

delighted to see the brand-new

trains arriving and better journeys

1:25:471:25:49

for them.

The strength and wisdom to

the select committee report, in

1:25:491:25:58

stark contrast, the 1993 report

chaired by Robert Adley which

1:25:581:26:05

forecast accurately all of the

problems the privatisation would

1:26:051:26:09

bring and a unanimous report by a

Tory dominated committee compared to

1:26:091:26:15

the statement made today, which

seems nothing more than a piece of

1:26:151:26:19

vacuous windowdressing designed to

distract us from the collapsing

1:26:191:26:24

policies of the government on

Brexit.

There's nothing like trying

1:26:241:26:30

to shoot every issue into one

question. The simple reality about

1:26:301:26:35

the railways is that back in the

1990s they were in a state of

1:26:351:26:38

decline, roots were being closed and

stations as well, back in the days

1:26:381:26:42

of British rail that plans to put

the station into a court station,

1:26:421:26:46

that was the reality of the days of

British rail. What we have seen in

1:26:461:26:49

the last 20 years is new trains, new

routes, double the number of

1:26:491:26:53

passengers on the problems we are

dealing with today are problems of

1:26:531:26:56

success are not filling and that is

why today it is the right thing to

1:26:561:27:00

do, not deciding to start again, to

evolve the real into a place where

1:27:001:27:03

they better placed real deal was a

very real challenges that result

1:27:031:27:07

from success.

The mainline and

northbound service from Kettering is

1:27:071:27:18

going from a half hourly service to

one hour service. There are no more

1:27:181:27:23

passengers. It's effectively the hub

between the commuter service to

1:27:231:27:26

Corby and the mainline northwards

and also now going to be the

1:27:261:27:31

interface between the electrified

part of the line and the diesel

1:27:311:27:34

operated part of the line. With my

right honourable friend angry with

1:27:341:27:38

me that Kettering would be the ideal

place for the new train track

1:27:381:27:42

operating team?

Kettering is a fine

town. It's a fine constituency and

1:27:421:27:51

well represented and I can

understand the case that he would

1:27:511:27:55

make to host that operating team and

he is right. One of the places at

1:27:551:28:00

the heart of the Midland mainline.

He makes a very strong case for

1:28:001:28:05

Kettering.

The Chancellor of the

Exchequer last week in the budget

1:28:051:28:12

mentioned in North Wales, proposing

a Metro in a more effective way to

1:28:121:28:20

connect with North England. As the

Secretary of State had a check on

1:28:201:28:26

the Chancellor? When many of us are

my suggestion we looked at that

1:28:261:28:29

project and I listen to what he said

to me. The Chancellor has provided

1:28:291:28:35

development funding. Building

Alliance and close working between

1:28:351:28:42

Network Rail and trade operating

companies in franchises is very much

1:28:421:28:47

a welcome move. However I would be

grateful that my right honourable

1:28:471:28:50

friend could advise on how Network

Rail will ultimately be held to

1:28:501:28:54

account for meeting the terms of

future franchises or contracts just

1:28:541:28:58

as currently the train operating

companies are and also whether it

1:28:581:29:02

means that infrastructure

improvements will now be considered

1:29:021:29:04

as part of the franchising process.

On the latter point, they can be.

1:29:041:29:11

They can be no, nothing to prevent

train companies coming forward with

1:29:111:29:16

small-scale infrastructure

proposals. My would be happy to see

1:29:161:29:19

the private sector come forward with

plans to introduce digital

1:29:191:29:23

signalling on their route but we're

not going to move the infrastructure

1:29:231:29:28

itself out of public ownership

Footitt the accountability comes

1:29:281:29:31

from the performance measures that

are put in place for Network Rail

1:29:311:29:34

and for the people who need it. I

think devolution to individual

1:29:341:29:38

routes will mean we get better

services and more focus and

1:29:381:29:43

out-of-the-box thinking which is

what Network Rail needs to make sure

1:29:431:29:45

it has the best value for everyone

involved.

1:29:451:29:52

My constituents will be listening

with avid interest because prior to

1:29:521:29:58

the general election the Transport

Secretary visited my constituency

1:29:581:30:01

and said the reinstatement of the

line to Preston would be a quick

1:30:011:30:10

when to help improve rail services

in the North. Perhaps he can tell us

1:30:101:30:14

when you will get that quick when

and when funding for this project

1:30:141:30:20

and electrification of the area will

be forthcoming. My constituents look

1:30:201:30:25

forward to you keeping your promise.

The people of West Lancashire right

1:30:251:30:31

now will be getting the benefit of

the investment programme that is

1:30:311:30:35

taking place in the line that runs

from Manchester to Blackpool. That

1:30:351:30:41

right now is our parity. After that,

I hope we will move forward to other

1:30:411:30:45

projects that will make a difference

to passengers in Lancashire and

1:30:451:30:51

elsewhere in the North West.

I

welcome the statement today. He will

1:30:511:30:57

know that 30% of passenger

improvements were due to the new

1:30:571:31:04

fleet but 60% is due to the track.

And I urge him for passenger and

1:31:041:31:09

freight. Felixstowe carries most of

the freight for this country. Could

1:31:091:31:16

I urge him to look at Holly Junction

and Ely Junction as key priorities

1:31:161:31:21

in order to deliver better services

for passengers and freight industry?

1:31:211:31:28

I can give her that assurance and

reiterate the government has given

1:31:281:31:34

the people of East Anglia be in

control period six the work on the

1:31:341:31:37

Ely Junction will free up freight

and passenger access through that

1:31:371:31:41

important Junction and open up

opportunities across East Anglia.

1:31:411:31:47

That will be an early priority for

as.

My constituents are used to

1:31:471:31:54

travelling on trains run by

Transport for London. Yet he refuses

1:31:541:32:05

them to have anything to do with the

Southeastern franchise based on the

1:32:051:32:09

fact we have a Labour Amir. My

constituents deserve better than his

1:32:091:32:16

petty political grievances. Would he

not allowed Transport for London to

1:32:161:32:24

demonstrate that they can run that

franchise more effectively?

1:32:241:32:30

Transport for London do not run the

track and trains. What they are

1:32:301:32:36

outlining today is more services,

longer trains, and that is a lot

1:32:361:32:44

better than what is being put

forward in the business plan from

1:32:441:32:49

TEFL.

Can the Secretary of State say

what talks he has had with the

1:32:491:33:00

northern Para house minister over

the upgrading of the trans-Pennine

1:33:001:33:02

routes? Would he consider linking up

the great cities of Liverpool and

1:33:021:33:08

Newcastle?

We have already

electrified from Manchester to

1:33:081:33:16

Liverpool. That has been done. The

next part from Manchester to Leeds,

1:33:161:33:22

York. That is the next big real

investment programme. That will be

1:33:221:33:29

the next project we go ahead with

and it will make a big difference.

I

1:33:291:33:37

warmly welcome the announcement

today of the consultation on great

1:33:371:33:41

Western franchise and the

improvements that will bring to

1:33:411:33:44

passenger services in Devon and

beyond. Can I seek is reassurance

1:33:441:33:49

that in the process we will put

focus on real focus between Exeter

1:33:491:33:59

and Barnstable? It is not just a

quaint tourist line used in August,

1:33:591:34:03

it is a vital access route for

business.

He is right. One of the

1:34:031:34:11

routes I have said we are now

engaged in working to begin

1:34:111:34:14

passenger services on again is the

routes to Exeter where I believe

1:34:141:34:19

there is additional potential to

provide better commuter services.

1:34:191:34:27

Can he tell us why he is not

electrifying the Midland mainline

1:34:271:34:33

when every single business

organisation, member of Parliament

1:34:331:34:36

and local council is telling him

that is what he should do? Why is he

1:34:361:34:42

ignoring the wishes of local people

and representatives and saying he

1:34:421:34:44

knows best and simply offering them

a joint team approach, whatever that

1:34:441:34:50

is?

The answer to that is simple.

Were delivering over the next four

1:34:501:34:55

years the biggest upgrade to the

Midland rail line since the 1870s.

1:34:551:35:00

Faster journeys, straightening out

tracks to improve line speeds.

1:35:001:35:06

Resignalling in places like Derby.

That will deliver faster journey

1:35:061:35:11

times to Sheffield and we will

deliver brand-new trains on that

1:35:111:35:15

route in the early 20 20s. I can

then electrify and go further. All

1:35:151:35:27

that would do is improve journey

times by one minute and would cost

1:35:271:35:36

£1 billion.

On behalf of my

neighbour and myself, can I thank

1:35:361:35:45

the Secretary of State for coming to

our area and seen the potential.

1:35:451:35:48

Page 31 of the document says it will

deliver faster trains from Hastings

1:35:481:35:59

and require any better for the

Southeastern franchise to pay

1:35:591:36:01

attention to the potential for high

speed rail being extended to

1:36:011:36:05

Hastings and Bexhill. Would he agree

with me that this will unlock

1:36:051:36:09

regeneration in our constituencies?

He is right. Sometimes it is the

1:36:091:36:15

smaller projects that make the

difference. We get very caught up in

1:36:151:36:19

the biggest projects. Actually the

smaller projects, even some track

1:36:191:36:25

realignment in places, is what makes

the biggest difference to

1:36:251:36:28

passengers. And looking to do big

things and small things to try to

1:36:281:36:32

improve the situation for

passengers.

She will know the

1:36:321:36:38

Cumbria coastline is in dire state

of performance at the moment. Is

1:36:381:36:45

disappointing Cumbria was not

mentioned at all in the strategy.

1:36:451:36:48

Will he agreed to get a real

minister to meet with us to discuss

1:36:481:36:53

what can be done about the

50-year-old local motors dashed

1:36:531:37:01

locomotives which are breaking down

and annoying residents. The terrible

1:37:011:37:07

state of rolling stock and awful

reliability. There is an urgent need

1:37:071:37:10

to fix this or there will be

significant damage to the economy.

1:37:101:37:17

We are getting new trains on that

route, introducing better and Sunday

1:37:171:37:22

services. In this partnership that

exists between us and the Labour

1:37:221:37:29

leadership and councils of the North

and transport for the North, will be

1:37:291:37:33

working side by side to see this new

franchise, see the replacement of

1:37:331:37:37

the rail fleet which the government

is paying for. The first of the new

1:37:371:37:42

trains are now entering service.

Every single train on the northern

1:37:421:37:53

route is either being replaced or

scrapped.

I welcome the real

1:37:531:38:05

strategy. I noted in it and in

answer to my friend from Bury St

1:38:051:38:12

Edmunds reference improvements on

the improvement works at Ely

1:38:121:38:19

Junction. Can he assure me that when

those works are done, which will

1:38:191:38:23

benefit the entire region and take

freight off the roads, my

1:38:231:38:27

constituents in Queen Adelaide will

not be disadvantages for a affected?

1:38:271:38:38

I give her that assurance. I will

work with her and her constituency

1:38:381:38:42

make sure this is a beneficial

investment for her part of the world

1:38:421:38:46

and win it has any impact, we

minimise them to the maximum

1:38:461:38:51

possible extent.

I noted what he

said about compensation for

1:38:511:38:55

passengers when things go wrong. I

know he is aware of the appalling

1:38:551:39:01

service being provided through my

constituency by Northern Rail. This

1:39:011:39:13

does not capture the Philip Stevie

Deans my constituents are having.

1:39:131:39:18

This is why we are working with the

ombudsman. We recognise there are

1:39:181:39:23

circumstances with a conventional

repayment system doesn't reflect the

1:39:231:39:29

problems experienced. That will come

into play shortly or working to

1:39:291:39:32

deliver that right now.

I would like

to thank my noble friend for

1:39:321:39:38

statement this afternoon,

particularly around the Southeastern

1:39:381:39:40

franchise, which needs to deliver

for the significant number of

1:39:401:39:44

house-building were going to be seen

in north Kent over the next 20

1:39:441:39:47

years. My constituents have long

complained. What I would like to ask

1:39:471:39:55

my right honourable friend today is

that if there are any further plans

1:39:551:40:00

to increase the capacity on the

wonderful high speed WAN network

1:40:001:40:04

that runs into my constituency,

because my constituents who want to

1:40:041:40:09

use the service are often

complaining of the lack of seats and

1:40:091:40:12

the number of trains available.

My

honourable friend is right that the

1:40:121:40:20

high speed services in Singh Kang

Pierce are pretty full at peak

1:40:201:40:28

times. We will see what happens when

the bids come through. It is on

1:40:281:40:36

everyone's radar.

In 2014, the

previous Tory Prime Minister

1:40:361:40:42

described electrification of the

great Western rail line across Wales

1:40:421:40:47

as transformational for communities

and huge. Given this government has

1:40:471:40:51

no cancelled electrification, why

should my constituents believe Tory

1:40:511:41:00

promises on real again?

We are

delivering much faster connections

1:41:001:41:04

to South Wales. Were improving the

track and signalling. That will make

1:41:041:41:11

a transformational difference to the

economy of South Wales. We are

1:41:111:41:17

ensuring express trains can go west

of Swansea. We have brand-new trains

1:41:171:41:23

in service from Swansea delivering

improved conditions for passengers.

1:41:231:41:27

If we are wrecked overhead cables,

it will cost £700 million and

1:41:271:41:33

deliver no extra benefits to

passengers, not even one minute of

1:41:331:41:37

the journey time. It doesn't make

any sense.

I was disappointed the

1:41:371:41:43

Secretary of State was not at the

debate on transport in the North on

1:41:431:41:48

six November. Having spoken of his

priorities for transforming services

1:41:481:41:51

in this country, can he say which he

thinks will happen first, Crossrail

1:41:511:41:57

for the North between Liverpool and

Hol, or Crossrail Mach two for a

1:41:571:42:03

London between Surrey and

Hertfordshire?

These are going to

1:42:031:42:08

happen. We will move forward in

lockstep with each other. Are both

1:42:081:42:13

important. We will steward them in

parallel.

The journey from

1:42:131:42:21

Paddington to Cardiff is regularly a

version of hell, to be honest.

1:42:211:42:25

Trains are regularly cancelled and

everyone has to do pile onto the

1:42:251:42:29

next train often an hour later. My

constituents regularly say to me

1:42:291:42:35

that they hear announcements that

the train will be delayed by 20

1:42:351:42:41

minutes because the train is more

overloaded and say. After an

1:42:411:42:47

international match, they put on

your trains, not more. It is simply

1:42:471:42:55

unfair and wrong. When is he going

to put it right?

You will be

1:42:551:43:00

delighted to see the arrival of the

new trains which have more seats,

1:43:001:43:04

more capacity and will replace long

out of date trains to deliver a

1:43:041:43:10

faster and better service for

passengers.

Can I firstly thank the

1:43:101:43:18

Secretary of State for his

assistance in securing extra money

1:43:181:43:21

for North Wales and the budget, but

it was for business case which is

1:43:211:43:27

merely a taster. Will he please help

deliver the main chorus of the North

1:43:271:43:33

Wales growth deal, which will really

unlock growth in what is one of the

1:43:331:43:38

most effective and forward-looking

areas of the national economy?

I

1:43:381:43:44

know he is asked not just the hors

d'oeuvre, but the full menu. I

1:43:441:43:53

thought he at least deserves an

appetiser. The situation north of

1:43:531:44:02

Wrexham at the moment is not right.

That is why we agreed to fund the

1:44:021:44:08

development of that scheme.

And like

to give credit to the Transport

1:44:081:44:11

Secretary for acknowledging the

failure on at two occasions of the

1:44:111:44:16

private front channels from the East

Coast Main Line. When it was

1:44:161:44:21

operated by the UK state owned

direct trains, it generated more

1:44:211:44:26

than £100 million of profits for the

Treasury which could be used for

1:44:261:44:30

other vital services. My question is

this. What assessment has he made of

1:44:301:44:35

the additional costs of the private

and public sector partnership, and

1:44:351:44:39

would it not be better to use the

profits to improve the Tyne & Wear

1:44:391:44:45

Metro? Rather than swell the coppers

of privately operated train

1:44:451:44:51

companies, often owned by

governments from Europe?

conundrum,

1:44:511:44:55

always from the party opposite about

Brexit but don't seem... They want

1:44:551:44:59

to stay in the single market,

continue to operate in the

1:44:591:45:02

traditional way but don't want to

work with train companies of other

1:45:021:45:06

countries. That is quite illogical.

I am delighted that we as a

1:45:061:45:13

government are investing in role in

the north-east, the trade and

1:45:131:45:17

investment, the metro, the plan

towards extending the Metro, this is

1:45:171:45:19

the right thing to do to help his

constituency and the economy of the

1:45:191:45:23

Northeast and I'm proud to be able

to deliver it and it's worth saying

1:45:231:45:28

that actually the private sector

franchise on the East Coast mainline

1:45:281:45:31

has contributed more to the Treasury

than the public sector wondered.

I

1:45:311:45:37

wrote to the Secretary of State on

the 23rd of October and I eagerly

1:45:371:45:42

await his response. My constituents

are fed up with chronically

1:45:421:45:46

overcrowded unreliable trains and

substandard services, can he tell me

1:45:461:45:51

what is being taken in order to

monitor the performance delivered by

1:45:511:45:54

the train operating companies?

She

is right that the constituency have

1:45:541:46:02

overcrowded trains and they are not

long enough and have to be replaced

1:46:021:46:05

and that is why we are replacing

them with longer trains and that

1:46:051:46:07

will make a transformational

difference to her constituents and

1:46:071:46:12

others across the North.

The

document published today, I was

1:46:121:46:19

perplexed that there was no mention

of mutual operators and I can only

1:46:191:46:22

assume that an oversight. Can he

actually reinvest profits for the

1:46:221:46:32

value of all passengers. Given that,

could I ask him to commit or commit

1:46:321:46:37

his real minister to a short meeting

to talk about the barriers faced by

1:46:371:46:41

mutual operators.

I would be very

happy to see an employee owned bid

1:46:411:46:46

to come forward. I would be happy to

see a partnership between employees

1:46:461:46:52

and investors to come forward and if

there are artificial barriers, I am

1:46:521:46:57

happy to see if we can remove them.

Every line that could be opened seem

1:46:571:47:04

to be in England. The Aberystwyth

line was closed due to cut and

1:47:041:47:14

reopening it would provide

considerable support and the

1:47:141:47:16

significant boost to the economy of

West Wales. With the Secretary of

1:47:161:47:20

State and prepare to meet a camping

group to discuss ways of adding this

1:47:201:47:23

line to his map of lines that could

be opened?

In an construction terms

1:47:231:47:31

there is a clear responsibility for

Wills and I want to see Welsh

1:47:311:47:35

infrastructure improved and see yet

as a way that can provide extra

1:47:351:47:38

service to passengers. The real

minister will be happy to talk to

1:47:381:47:45

him on the campaign group about that

and I was talking the other day to

1:47:451:47:50

people in Wales and I'm aware that

it's a project that people want to

1:47:501:47:53

see. What I would be very clear is

that as we invest in reopening

1:47:531:47:57

routes, they have two provide

economic opportunity, housing

1:47:571:48:02

opportunity break-up real point of

congestion, we cannot as a goodbye

1:48:021:48:05

to recreating old routes that no

longer have a commercial purpose.

1:48:051:48:12

The Secretary of State will be aware

from my communications the

1:48:121:48:16

importance of real connectivity in

my constituency. It is the fifth

1:48:161:48:21

largest town in the country without

a railway station. Following the

1:48:211:48:26

publication of his report today, the

industrial strategy and the social

1:48:261:48:31

mobility report, which all highlight

the importance of connectivity for

1:48:311:48:37

social and economic purposes, will

he confirm that my constituency will

1:48:371:48:42

or has been considered as part of

the reversal of caps.

Leuluai one

1:48:421:48:51

significant towns to be well served

by the railways and she is meeting

1:48:511:48:54

my honourable friend this afternoon

and he will listen very carefully to

1:48:541:48:59

what she says.

My constituency of

Bristol North West is on the brink

1:48:591:49:06

of daily gridlock due to welcome

back significant development and

1:49:061:49:08

housing and travel to work groups

which are not fit for purpose. I

1:49:081:49:12

welcome the reference to the

Portishead line in the strategy but

1:49:121:49:15

the solution is the Henry Luke line.

1:49:151:49:20

Will the Secretary of State

reiterate the device given to my

1:49:211:49:28

predecessor that an independent case

study should be funded for funding

1:49:281:49:32

of that line.

Also

1:49:321:49:40

he has a strong agenda to take

forward to investment and the

1:49:421:49:45

suburban railway services. I have

been to the point of the Henry loop,

1:49:451:49:51

which will be the issue and it is

something we have to resolve. --

1:49:511:49:55

Henbury.

1:49:551:49:58

Fragmentation of the great Western

franchise risks locking in a poor

1:50:051:50:09

deal for real for the far

south-west. Will the Secretary of

1:50:091:50:12

State take this opportunity to match

the commitment given by the Shadow

1:50:121:50:16

Secretary of State for Transport to

fund the peninsular rail transport

1:50:161:50:19

board recommendations for faster

journeys, more resilient railways

1:50:191:50:24

and ensure they can unlock the

investment that we need for

1:50:241:50:27

Plymouth, Devon and Cornwall.

Let me

reiterate my point that this is a

1:50:271:50:33

consultation and I want views from

all sides, we will only make a

1:50:331:50:36

change if it is the right thing to

do and we're not going to create a

1:50:361:50:40

fringe franchise just for Devon and

Cornwall, cutting it off. If we do

1:50:401:50:44

this and will be much more of a

south-western franchise serving the

1:50:441:50:48

region providing good links locally.

In terms of the peninsular rail task

1:50:481:50:53

force, their top recommendation was

that we need to do with the issue

1:50:531:50:57

and developing the solution. That is

critical to making sure that route

1:50:571:51:03

is resilient, that is the number-1

real priority for me in the

1:51:031:51:06

south-west I can have an absolute

guarantee to that says that as long

1:51:061:51:10

as I am Transport Secretary and

beyond, my party is committed to

1:51:101:51:14

delivering a solution to prevent the

very real risk that represents.

1:51:141:51:19

I now call Mr Andrea Mitchell to

propose a debate on a specific and

1:51:231:51:28

important matter that should have

urgent consideration under the terms

1:51:281:51:33

of Standing Order number 24. The

Right Honourable member has three

1:51:331:51:39

minutes in which to make such an

application.

Thank you Madam Deputy

1:51:391:51:44

Speaker, I seek leave to propose

that the House should debate a

1:51:441:51:48

specific and important matter, which

shall have urgent consideration,

1:51:481:51:51

namely Britain's engagement with

Saudi Arabia and Yemen. Today, we

1:51:511:51:57

are witnessing an almighty

catastrophe of biblical proportions

1:51:571:51:59

are unfolding in Yemen in which

Britain is dangerously complicit.

1:51:591:52:07

Britain is respected throughout the

world for bringing hope and relief

1:52:071:52:10

for those caught up in humanitarian

misery. Today in Yemen, which I

1:52:101:52:14

visited earlier this year, we are in

danger of earning a reputation for

1:52:141:52:19

precisely the reverse. For the UK is

part of the coalition which is

1:52:191:52:22

imposing a blockade by land, sea and

air on 27 million in many people. In

1:52:221:52:28

recent weeks and fuel prices have

risen by up to 160% and rice and

1:52:281:52:33

basic foods by nearly 70%. Fuel for

generators is essential for

1:52:331:52:39

hospitals and water pumping stations

and it will run out shortly.

1:52:391:52:43

Yesterday given announcement by the

Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, while

1:52:431:52:48

arguably slowing the trajectory,

will not in any way curtail this

1:52:481:52:53

escalating disaster. In the words of

the United Nations Secretary-General

1:52:531:52:57

last week, and I quote, unless the

blockade is lifted, famine

1:52:571:53:03

throughout Yemen is a very real

threat, including on the southern

1:53:031:53:07

borders of the Kingdom of Saudi

Arabia. Moreover, wilfully impeding

1:53:071:53:14

humanitarian access may constitute a

violation of international

1:53:141:53:18

humanitarian law. It is increasingly

clear, Madam Deputy Speaker, that

1:53:181:53:22

this blockade imposed on Yemen

constitutes the collective and

1:53:221:53:28

illegal punishment of an entire

population. If you grant this

1:53:281:53:33

debate, I believe the House will see

clearly that current policy will

1:53:331:53:39

result in a huge strategic failure,

both for Saudi Arabia and by

1:53:391:53:43

extension for the UK as well. My

believe it is important that the

1:53:431:53:47

voice of this house is heard

urgently along with the Prime

1:53:471:53:52

Minister's on her current visit to

the Gulf. Above all, it is a moral

1:53:521:53:59

failure that confronts us. Famine is

a phenomenon that we were close to

1:53:591:54:06

eradicating from the human

condition. The last 20 years has

1:54:061:54:10

seen on the two famine throughout

the world. I was responsible in 2011

1:54:101:54:15

for coordinating the UK efforts to

address one of those famines in

1:54:151:54:20

Somalia and saw for myself emaciated

children and starving mothers. Today

1:54:201:54:25

in Yemen, we are witnessing a

totally preventable mass

1:54:251:54:31

humanitarian catastrophe, the likes

of which we have not seen in

1:54:311:54:35

decades.

The Right Honourable member

asks leave to propose a debate on a

1:54:351:54:43

specific and important matter that

should have urgent consideration.

1:54:431:54:48

Namely, the current situation in

Yemen. On behalf of Mr Speaker, I

1:54:481:54:56

have listened carefully to the

application from the Right

1:54:561:55:00

Honourable member and Mr Speaker is

satisfied that the matter raised is

1:55:001:55:04

proper to be discussed under

Standing Order number 24. Has the

1:55:041:55:10

Right Honourable member the leave of

the House?

1:55:101:55:15

The motion... I assure the Right

Honourable gentleman, I don't have

1:55:221:55:29

to count. Nobody has indicated

dissent and there is clearly

1:55:291:55:36

support. The motion has been

supported, as required by the

1:55:361:55:41

Standing Order. The debate will be

held tomorrow as the first item of

1:55:411:55:51

public business. The debate will

last for up to three hours and will

1:55:511:55:55

arise on a motion that the House has

considered the specific matters set

1:55:551:56:00

out in the right Honourable member's

application, namely that the House

1:56:001:56:05

has considered the current situation

in Yemen.

1:56:051:56:09

We now come to the ten minute rule

motion.

Thank you very much. I beg

1:56:131:56:22

to move that we'd be given to bring

in a bill to require the government

1:56:221:56:27

to monitor and report on food and

security to make provision for

1:56:271:56:31

official statistics on food

insecurity and for connected

1:56:311:56:34

purposes. People are going hungry

and with each passing day of this

1:56:341:56:40

terrible excuse for a government,

more and more are falling into

1:56:401:56:43

poverty was little chance of an

escape. There are no second chances

1:56:431:56:48

in Britain today. Food poverty is a

clear consequence of this

1:56:481:56:52

government's ideological assault on

the social safety net and the people

1:56:521:56:56

who rely on it and are ongoing in

action on poverty pay. Each time

1:56:561:57:01

hunger is raised in this chamber, I

have had secretaries of State and

1:57:011:57:06

ministers denigrate statistics on

charities, food banks and

1:57:061:57:09

colleagues, claiming that the

figures are not robust enough and

1:57:091:57:12

the information out there is not

reliable enough to inform government

1:57:121:57:15

policy. Denying the accuracy of data

or simply turning a blind eye allows

1:57:151:57:22

the benches opposite to pretend the

problem doesn't exist. Madam Deputy

1:57:221:57:26

Speaker, today, with this bill, I am

giving the government an opportunity

1:57:261:57:30

to rectify this data gap and robust

elite measured the levels of hunger

1:57:301:57:36

in the UK. We all know that what

gets measured gets done. Although

1:57:361:57:41

the problem offered and security in

the UK is increasing and the

1:57:411:57:46

devolved administrations in Scotland

and Northern Ireland are taking

1:57:461:57:49

steps to implement the measurement.

This government doggedly persists in

1:57:491:57:53

refusing calls from the food

foundation, sustain Oxfam, myself

1:57:531:57:58

and a host of others to routinely

robustly measure levels of food

1:57:581:58:01

insecurity. Estimates from the

United Nations in 2014 suggests that

1:58:011:58:07

as many as 8 million households in

the UK are food insecure. That is 8

1:58:071:58:13

million households where people

cannot afford to eat or are worrying

1:58:131:58:16

about where their next meal is

coming from. This estimate is based

1:58:161:58:20

on a small survey of around 1000

people, which is not nearly good

1:58:201:58:25

enough to inform policy. In 2016,

the Food Standards Agency surveyed

1:58:251:58:32

households about food insecurity as

part of the food and use survey.

1:58:321:58:36

They found 21% of households in

England, Wales and Northern Ireland

1:58:361:58:41

to be moderately to severely food

insecure. This one-off measurement

1:58:411:58:46

gives a snapshot of the problem but

does not allow for long-term trends

1:58:461:58:51

or the ability to track the impact

of policy changes. This month, the

1:58:511:58:57

office for National statistics

showed data that the drop in the

1:58:571:59:01

value of Stirling Q2 Brexit, food

inflation has written over 4%. We

1:59:011:59:08

need up-to-date information on the

impact it is having on families in

1:59:081:59:15

the UK to afford healthy food

because being food insecure as

1:59:151:59:19

lasting health impacts. We already

know that the UK is facing the

1:59:191:59:23

double burden of insecurity and

obesity. It is no surprise given the

1:59:231:59:28

types of meals that are food

insecure family can afford. More

1:59:281:59:31

worryingly, and the last financial

year, the cab of hospital admissions

1:59:311:59:36

in England reveals that there were

nearly 8000 adults and over 300

1:59:361:59:40

children admitted to hospital for

malnutrition.

1:59:401:59:46

This figure should shame any

government, but for a government in

1:59:461:59:49

one of the richest countries in the

world this is simply unforgivable.

1:59:491:59:53

The latest data shows that just over

1 million emergency food supplies

1:59:532:00:03

were given to people in crisis over

the past year. This is just the tip

2:00:032:00:06

of the iceberg. We know the trust

will trust only collect data from

2:00:062:00:10

their own food banks. There are at

least 1000 food banks in operation.

2:00:102:00:17

There is also the hidden hungry.

Those who won't go to a food bank,

2:00:172:00:21

who rely on the kindness of friends,

family and neighbours, will go

2:00:212:00:27

hungry so not to face the shame of

having to ask for food. The

2:00:272:00:32

desperate state of this problem is

something I and colleagues see every

2:00:322:00:35

day in our constituencies. I recall

a woman who called my office in

2:00:352:00:39

desperate need of help after having

problems with her benefits. No money

2:00:392:00:44

for gas, electricity or food for

herself and her four children under

2:00:442:00:48

the age of ten. She was alone and

unable to afford to get to the

2:00:482:00:52

nearest food bank. In the end our

local volunteers managed to get food

2:00:522:00:56

to her. The fact that faith groups

and charities have had to fill the

2:00:562:01:01

gap left by the state is a massive

dereliction of duty of any

2:01:012:01:06

government. As a result, food banks

are now a prominent part of the

2:01:062:01:10

welfare state. According to the

United Nations data on food

2:01:102:01:14

insecurity in the UK, as many as 17

times more people are food insecure

2:01:142:01:19

than those using the Trussell Trust

food banks. It is an indication of a

2:01:192:01:25

last resort when families are at

imminent risk of going hungry.

2:01:252:01:31

Recurring or moderate food

insecurity is not captured by

2:01:312:01:33

measuring food bank use. We also

know that measuring the proportion

2:01:332:01:39

of income spent on food is not an

adequate measure of food insecurity.

2:01:392:01:43

There is new evidence from Canada I

chose food insecure households will

2:01:432:01:48

continue to spend the same

proportion of their income on food

2:01:482:01:53

as income falls, but the experience

increasingly severe food insecurity.

2:01:532:01:58

In addition, these measures do not

inform us about food on

2:01:582:02:05

affordability, socio- and economic

issues faced when food insecure,

2:02:052:02:10

useful survival strategies. These

issues can only be captured by

2:02:102:02:15

measuring household's experience of

food insecurity. Capturing and

2:02:152:02:19

measuring the experience of food

insecurity is either your -- easier

2:02:192:02:21

than we think. Survey tools are

currently being used in countries

2:02:212:02:28

around the world. The United States

Department of agriculture module

2:02:282:02:33

includes questions that assess both

household and child food insecurity.

2:02:332:02:37

This involves asking a series of

questions about people's experiences

2:02:372:02:40

of access and a sufficient quality

and quantity of food. The results

2:02:402:02:47

rank household food insecurity on a

scale from mild to severe. This bill

2:02:472:02:52

proposes these questions are

inserted into existing

2:02:522:02:54

representative UK wide surveys that

the government already conduct. What

2:02:542:03:01

I am proposing, Madam Deputy

Speaker, is very simple. By adding

2:03:012:03:04

the module into an existing survey,

such as the living cost and food

2:03:042:03:09

survey, this could be done cost

neutrally. When questions which are

2:03:092:03:13

less important are removed. For

example, the survey currently asked

2:03:132:03:18

households about the food they grow

at home. We need some new questions

2:03:182:03:22

for a new times. This is a

straightforward bill proposing to

2:03:222:03:27

introduce an existing measure into

an existing server that can be done

2:03:272:03:31

cost neutrally. As we negotiate new

trading arrangements with Europe and

2:03:312:03:37

beyond, its global populations rise

and conflict spread and more extreme

2:03:372:03:40

weather impacts on food supplies,

globally and domestically, food

2:03:402:03:45

insecurity will become an important

issue. In order to meet the

2:03:452:03:49

challenges of the future and the

urgency now, we need to measure food

2:03:492:03:53

insecurity here in the UK. This is

more important than ever. Madam

2:03:532:03:59

Deputy Speaker, as I present this

bill, in my constituency there will

2:03:592:04:03

be a mother wondering how she is

going to feed herself and her

2:04:032:04:06

toddler today. There will be

schoolchildren struggling to focus

2:04:062:04:11

because their stomachs rumbling.

Parents who have yet again skipped

2:04:112:04:15

breakfast to make sure their

children didn't have too. Families

2:04:152:04:18

searching their cupboards for what

is left and elderly people who are

2:04:182:04:22

unable to access fresh food. But it

is not just the case in my

2:04:222:04:26

constituency. It is the situation in

constituencies and homes across the

2:04:262:04:30

UK. As I have outlined, implementing

the measurement is not an

2:04:302:04:37

insurmountable or costly challenge.

This government owe it to every man,

2:04:372:04:41

woman and child who walk up hungry

this morning and will go to bed

2:04:412:04:44

hungry tonight in one of the richest

countries in the world. -- walk up.

2:04:442:04:49

I commend it to the House.

The

question is that the honourable

2:04:492:04:53

member have leave to bring in the

bill. As many of that opinion say

2:04:532:04:57

eye. The no. The ayes have it, the

ayes have it. Who will prepare and

2:04:572:05:07

bring in the bill?

Frank Field, Kate

Green, Jim Shannon, Liam Byrne,

2:05:072:05:16

Kerry McCarthy, Stephen Timms, Dan

Jarvis, Lee-Lo Maurin, Mr Jim

2:05:162:05:24

Cunningham and Grahame Morris. And

me, of course!

Mrs ML -- Emma

2:05:242:05:35

Lewell-Buck.

2:05:352:05:37

Second reading, what day?

The 2nd of

February, 2018.

We know come to the

2:06:052:06:17

first Opposition Day motion in the

name of the leader of the Scottish

2:06:172:06:20

National Party. On women affected by

state pension age increases. Mr Ian

2:06:202:06:28

Blackford.

Thank you. Can I take the

opportunity to wish you and

2:06:282:06:35

everybody else in the chamber a

happy Saint Andrews day when it

2:06:352:06:38

comes tomorrow. Today is the 50th

anniversary of the mighty Hibernian

2:06:382:06:46

football club defeating Naples 5-0

at Easter Road. It ensured we went

2:06:462:06:56

on to the next stage of European

football. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am

2:06:562:07:01

delighted to open and move the SNP

Opposition Day debate: for

2:07:012:07:05

mitigation for women born in the

1950s. We are here in support of the

2:07:052:07:10

women against state pension equality

campaign and their efforts to secure

2:07:102:07:14

fairness for women affected by the

acceleration in the retirement age.

2:07:142:07:20

Madam Deputy Speaker, I am saddened

that we are having yet another

2:07:202:07:24

debate on this issue. But the

fundamentals are that the government

2:07:242:07:30

should have taken action to mitigate

the increase in women's pensionable

2:07:302:07:34

age. One second. There must be

action. The three point it would --

2:07:342:07:41

3.8 million women affected have

waited simply far too long. I will

2:07:412:07:46

happily give way.

I'm grateful to

the honourable gentleman. He will

2:07:462:07:49

recall when he and I were pension

spokespeople for our respective

2:07:492:07:55

parties over two years ago, we both

called for action. Does he share my

2:07:552:07:59

deep frustration we still have

absolutely nothing?

I welcome that

2:07:592:08:03

intervention. He and I were holding

the government to account. It is an

2:08:032:08:10

absolute outrage when the evidence

is before us of the fact that the

2:08:102:08:13

women didn't get appropriate notice,

and the fact that acceleration has

2:08:132:08:18

taken place so quickly. But we have

had nothing yet from this

2:08:182:08:22

government. I will give way.

I'm

grateful. It is a very important to

2:08:222:08:26

bed. -- debate. Last week I attended

the one in Westminster Hall. Would

2:08:262:08:34

he accept it is wrong to say the

government has taken no action? In

2:08:342:08:38

2011 they made sure that no one

waited for an extended period beyond

2:08:382:08:42

18 months.

I have heard about

spinning. But let's deal with the

2:08:422:08:49

facts of the matter. What the

honourable lady is referring to is

2:08:492:08:54

the fact that the government brought

in and act in 2011 that increased

2:08:542:08:57

the acceleration. To talk about the

fact the government had mitigated is

2:08:572:09:04

a distortion of the reality, and the

government benches should stop

2:09:042:09:09

spinning the way that they are doing

and tell the truth to the 3.8

2:09:092:09:13

million women affected. That is that

pensionable age is increasing by

2:09:132:09:19

three months per calendar month.

That is the reality. And for the

2:09:192:09:23

government to try and argue that it

mitigated against it is something

2:09:232:09:28

they should be utterly ashamed of.

And it demonstrates that there are

2:09:282:09:32

those on the Conservative Party

benches that simply don't get what

2:09:322:09:36

is going on. I will happily give

way.

I'm grateful. The tragedy is it

2:09:362:09:42

false to us to speak for those

individuals who have suffered the

2:09:422:09:45

effect of this. I have a constituent

who was born 24-hour is too late.

2:09:452:09:50

She now has to work for two years

and three months longer. These are

2:09:502:09:54

individual tragedies.

I am very

grateful for that intervention from

2:09:542:10:01

my honourable friend. I can't really

add much to what she said. It

2:10:012:10:04

demonstrates the ridiculousness of

what is going on. That is why the

2:10:042:10:09

government must listen. I will take

one more intervention.

I am grateful

2:10:092:10:14

to him. He knows I support this

cause. Although I can't be here for

2:10:142:10:18

the rest of the debate, but I will

certainly support this innocuous

2:10:182:10:22

motion. The fact is those measures

taken in 2011 benefited men just as

2:10:222:10:28

much as women. This is very much a

women focused injustice. 33% of men

2:10:282:10:35

approaching retirement expect to

rely just on a state pension. But

2:10:352:10:40

for women it is as many as 53%,

which is why this is such an

2:10:402:10:44

important issue to them and to all

of us.

Can I thank the honourable

2:10:442:10:49

member for that important

intervention? He has been resolute

2:10:492:10:52

on this over the course of the last

couple of years. I know the women

2:10:522:10:56

are grateful for the support he has

given. I hope he will be back for

2:10:562:11:00

the vote later. I am glad he

referred to the motion which is in

2:11:002:11:03

front of us. There are all sorts of

things we could have laid before

2:11:032:11:09

this House. The motion simply calls

on the government to put in place

2:11:092:11:13

mitigation. It is done in such a way

that all members of Parliament that

2:11:132:11:18

have showed support, have got a

motion in front of them they can

2:11:182:11:22

support. Now is our chance, our only

chance, that we can stand up and do

2:11:222:11:26

something. I remembers who want to

get in. I will make some progress

2:11:262:11:31

and let people back in again. I know

many people want to speak. Madam

2:11:312:11:36

Deputy Speaker, this is about women

who have paid national insurance in

2:11:362:11:40

anticipation of receiving their

pension, who have been hit with the

2:11:402:11:43

bombshell that the pension was being

deferred in some cases by up to six

2:11:432:11:48

years, with only 15 months written

notice. Just dwell on that. When

2:11:482:11:52

your pension has been increased,

when you are looking forward to your

2:11:522:11:56

retirement, that you are given a

letter that told you you are going

2:11:562:11:59

to get as little as 15 months

notice. I would say to everybody on

2:11:592:12:04

the benches opposite, can anybody

stand up and tell this House, tell

2:12:042:12:11

the public, that giving someone 15

months written notice of an increase

2:12:112:12:17

in their pension was acceptable? Is

there anybody who is prepared to do

2:12:172:12:21

that? I will happily give way if

somebody wants to do that.

2:12:212:12:27

We recognise the concern. But to

rectify it requires public funds.

2:12:272:12:33

Now in the previous debate he said

his party position was to pay for it

2:12:332:12:38

from the surplus of the national

insurance fund. Is that still his

2:12:382:12:41

party's policy?

Given the

opportunity to defend something

2:12:412:12:48

which is indefensible, what we get

again is spin. Let's be absolutely

2:12:482:12:53

crystal clear. The national

insurance fund is sitting at a

2:12:532:12:57

surplus of in the region of £30

billion. Now be clear, that surplus

2:12:572:13:03

of £30 billion is generated by the

women that have paid national

2:13:032:13:08

insurance. All that we are being

asked to do is give the women what

2:13:082:13:15

they were entitled to. A pension

should be... I will make some

2:13:152:13:20

progress. A pension should be seen

as a right, a right that the

2:13:202:13:24

government have changed the terms

and conditions on without

2:13:242:13:29

consultation. As many of the

campaigners point out, we paid in,

2:13:292:13:33

you pay out. This is a campaign at

the heart of SNP policy. We have

2:13:332:13:42

long fought for the government to

rectify the shambles and give the

2:13:422:13:45

women the pension they rightfully

deserved. I speak on behalf of, on

2:13:452:13:50

these benches, when I say that we

will not rest, we will never rest

2:13:502:13:54

until justice is delivered for the

women affected. The government have

2:13:542:13:59

failed time and time again to

address the injustices of a lack of

2:13:592:14:03

notice for the acceleration of the

state pension age. The opportunities

2:14:032:14:07

here today for the government to

admit that effective notice was not

2:14:072:14:11

given of an increase in pensionable

age, or the process of increasing

2:14:112:14:15

pensionable age must be slowed

down...

I'm very grateful to the

2:14:152:14:21

right honourable gentleman forgiving

way. He is speaking with his

2:14:212:14:23

customary passion on this issue. He

said it was at the heart of SNP

2:14:232:14:28

thinking. I'm not an expert on

devolved powers. But my

2:14:282:14:32

understanding of the reading of the

legislation is that the Scottish

2:14:322:14:36

government has the powers to rectify

this issue if it's a waste.

2:14:362:14:40

Chastising the Treasury bench for a

lack of action, and we have seen no

2:14:402:14:44

action which could give a lead to

the government perhaps one -- from

2:14:442:14:47

Hollywood.

2:14:472:15:00

It is because we don't have the

powers and it's about time that

2:15:032:15:09

somebody in the government mentioned

stop creating... Let me be

2:15:092:15:17

absolutely crystal clear on this. He

worked over pensions is reserved to

2:15:172:15:25

Westminster and there is a bit of a

clue. Pensions are paid out of

2:15:252:15:28

national insurance. I would love

that the Scottish Government had

2:15:282:15:32

control over national insurance

because I will make this clear to

2:15:322:15:35

the House, if we had control over

pensions in Scotland, we'd make

2:15:352:15:43

sure... I will give way.

The act

does not preclude... If the

2:15:432:15:53

Honourable Lady would just wait a

minute. I agree entirely that

2:15:532:15:58

pensions are reserved for

discretionary payments could be made

2:15:582:16:01

by the government, why haven't they

done so?

There's a very simple

2:16:012:16:07

answer and that is that the

honourable gentleman who I have

2:16:072:16:12

respect for, he knows that, he

should go back and read the 2016 act

2:16:122:16:16

because it's absolutely crystal

clear that we cannot introduce new

2:16:162:16:20

benefits, nor can we introduce

payments based on age but there is a

2:16:202:16:24

fundamental point that needs to be

made here. We are talking about the

2:16:242:16:32

state pension in the active kingdom.

We are talking about the state

2:16:322:16:37

pension and the United Kingdom. It

is a reserved matter. And it really

2:16:372:16:44

ill judges anybody on the opposition

side to try and create division to

2:16:442:16:49

the people of Scotland and elsewhere

when we have powers and we don't. I

2:16:492:16:53

will say to the honourable members

opposite, particularly those from

2:16:532:16:57

the Conservative Party that if they

want the Scottish Government to have

2:16:572:17:00

the powers to fix this then give us

the powers. Give us control over

2:17:002:17:05

pensions and we will fix it

tomorrow.

I am grateful to the

2:17:052:17:11

member for giving way. He has asked

us to tell him what he was the

2:17:112:17:15

Scottish Government have in the

situation, under section 28 of the

2:17:152:17:19

Scotland act, you can create a new

benefit and you can make that

2:17:192:17:25

argument as a basis but the reason

of old age which the DWP have

2:17:252:17:31

accepted. Further, session 26 allows

the Scottish Government to make

2:17:312:17:35

short-term aim to people who need

them to avoid a risk to the

2:17:352:17:39

well-being of an individual. They

have the powers, they choose not to

2:17:392:17:43

use them.

2:17:432:17:44

The honourable gentleman.

Order. I

want to hear the honourable

2:17:502:17:58

gentleman and I was about to try to

quieten the House down in order I

2:17:582:18:01

might be able to hear him but I

realised most of the night is coming

2:18:012:18:04

from those behind him. The

honourable gentleman is making an

2:18:042:18:09

important speech and those behind

him are trying to support but they

2:18:092:18:12

are a bit noisy about it.

2:18:122:18:15

The simple fact is that the Scottish

parliament and government does not

2:18:182:18:24

have the ability to introduce new

benefits based on age but there is

2:18:242:18:28

something really important. The

honourable gentleman opposite should

2:18:282:18:31

reflect on this because this is a

failure of policy of the UK

2:18:312:18:37

Government. Nobody can get away from

that. The Conservatives in Scotland

2:18:372:18:42

really say that the Scottish

parliament, the Scottish Government

2:18:422:18:45

should clear up the mess again which

has been left by the Conservative

2:18:452:18:51

government because we have spent

£400 million of the Scottish

2:18:512:18:56

Government mitigating the worst

effects of Tory austerity. That is

2:18:562:19:00

their reality and when I see the

honourable gentleman sitting there

2:19:002:19:04

chuntering, maybe he can and answer

the question. Was he one of those

2:19:042:19:08

that signed? Did he say to his

voters in Murray that he was going

2:19:082:19:15

to stand up to them because if he is

due to his word that he has to come

2:19:152:19:21

through the lobbies with us this

afternoon or quite simply his words

2:19:212:19:25

will be shown to be meaningless and

differ are the people of his

2:19:252:19:29

constituency. -- fraud.

I am

concerned my honourable friend is

2:19:292:19:36

not listening to the front bench,

I'm sympathetic to the Waspy women.

2:19:362:19:43

The Right Honourable gentleman can

do something about it. He will not

2:19:432:19:46

and he's not taking an intervention

because he would rather score

2:19:462:19:50

political points than fix the

problem.

That is pathetic.

2:19:502:19:56

Absolutely pathetic. It demonstrates

well and truly that the honourable

2:19:562:20:01

gentleman has not been listening.

I've listened to the government

2:20:012:20:05

front bench at an debate after

debate when they had been given the

2:20:052:20:08

opportunity to do something about

this, we costed proposals, we came

2:20:082:20:13

forward with proposals in the last

Parliament and the minister like

2:20:132:20:16

Cabinet ministers before he wants to

sit on his hands, he wants this

2:20:162:20:19

issue to go away. I can tell you

quite clearly, this issue is not

2:20:192:20:23

going away. I will make progress and

then give way. The opportunity

2:20:232:20:30

issued today for the government to

do something about it and if I can

2:20:302:20:35

remind the House, 250 members of

Parliament have presented petitions

2:20:352:20:39

on behalf of of Waspy woman. That's

250 members of Parliament that I

2:20:392:20:44

expect to go through the lobby --

Waspy women. There's no point

2:20:442:20:49

signing the petition unless you are

prepared to go through the lobby or

2:20:492:20:52

simply you have duped them. Our

motion is a simple one. It calls for

2:20:522:21:01

mitigation. It allows all members of

Parliament to recognise the

2:21:012:21:07

injustice of 1950s women are facing

on the allows the government to

2:21:072:21:12

bring forward proposals. Let me

state that at the beginning of this

2:21:122:21:16

debate, the Parliamentary democracy

if it means anything, the House must

2:21:162:21:20

divide on this motion. The

government must support mitigation

2:21:202:21:24

which we are calling to do or have

the guts to vote, members across

2:21:242:21:33

this house must signal we have the

book mitigation into place. Let us

2:21:332:21:37

stand up today for 1950s women

because I believe parliamentary

2:21:372:21:43

arithmetic is on our side. I will

give way one more time.

I can grab

2:21:432:21:52

the honourable gentleman to get this

debate. I think the government can

2:21:522:21:59

find this money, it's not good for

the government to blame the Scottish

2:21:592:22:03

parliament, this is a UK issue and I

can assure the honourable gentleman

2:22:032:22:07

I will be backing him.

I'm very

grateful and I hoped he would be and

2:22:072:22:13

has been resolute of this issue. He

is absolutely right about the magic

2:22:132:22:19

money tree. We can find money for

Northern Ireland and as I pointed

2:22:192:22:23

out in the budget debate, we found

£70 billion for quantitive easing

2:22:232:22:27

last year. 70 billion written for

the Bank of England to put into the

2:22:272:22:33

financial markets and don't tell us

that you can't find the money the

2:22:332:22:38

answer to the question is this money

is there because the national

2:22:382:22:42

insurance fund is there and we must

make some progress. I will not take

2:22:422:22:47

interventions for a while. The

moment has never been sort of to

2:22:472:22:51

four members across this house to

come together. To do the right thing

2:22:512:22:55

and coal for this long-standing

error to be corrected. On the

2:22:552:23:00

benches opposite there was a pledge

to the Waspi women as recently as

2:23:002:23:04

June this year, Scottish Tory

members opposite, I will not name

2:23:042:23:08

them, they know who they are, they

signed the Waspi pledge and claimed

2:23:082:23:15

they would be prepared to act

against party orders on the issue.

2:23:152:23:21

To act against party orders. There

has been a deafening silence from

2:23:212:23:26

them on this matter since the

election. There is a surprise. The

2:23:262:23:34

host might be interested to know

that in the constituencies

2:23:342:23:38

represented by the Scottish

Conservative members of Parliament,

2:23:382:23:40

a total of 84,000 women are affected

by this government's legislative

2:23:402:23:46

changes. My advice to those who

supported the Waspi women, will they

2:23:462:23:57

have the courage to join us in the

lobbies this afternoon will be

2:23:572:24:00

turned their backs on the 84,000

Waspi women in their own

2:24:002:24:05

constituencies? Page 62 other

Scottish Conservative manifesto. We

2:24:052:24:11

will also ensure that the state

pension age reflect increases in

2:24:112:24:16

life protection and will protect

each generation fairly. So, today,

2:24:162:24:22

Scottish Tories, do the right thing.

2:24:222:24:27

Thank you very much to the

honourable gentleman. People are

2:24:282:24:32

living longer and the contributions

work out a little on the basis of

2:24:322:24:39

people not living so long and whilst

I sympathise with the honourable

2:24:392:24:44

member and what he is saying, the

debt burden would be increased on

2:24:442:24:48

the children and grandchildren and

that is grossly unfair.

2:24:482:24:54

I am absolutely stunned. I am

speechless because that is something

2:24:582:25:04

that we should put out in a leaflet

because we're not talking about tea

2:25:042:25:08

and sympathy, we are talking about

Waspi that are on benefit and they

2:25:082:25:16

will get nothing from the member for

Gordon and that is crystal clear. We

2:25:162:25:23

should today delivered the

generation of fairness that the

2:25:232:25:26

Tories promised in their manifesto.

I sincerely went with the backing of

2:25:262:25:32

some 37 Conservative MPs who

expressed support for women against

2:25:322:25:39

increasing state pension. 37 Tory

MPs signed the pledge and we will

2:25:392:25:42

watch this afternoon Waspi women

will be watching. You will be

2:25:422:25:47

expected to do what you promise in

the election campaign and stand up

2:25:472:25:51

for the Waspi women. That support

stretches from the Tory benches

2:25:512:25:56

across to the benches of the

2:25:562:26:01

page nine of their manifesto they

pledged to protect pensions and it

2:26:032:26:08

was announced today they will

support and into the -- they will

2:26:082:26:14

support an end to the unfair

pledges.

2:26:142:26:17

I must say I am disappointed at the

tone which has been said in this

2:26:202:26:26

debate because despite the fact that

we did have emotion, which I would

2:26:262:26:30

have thought could have commanded

widespread support, the tone of the

2:26:302:26:35

debate has not been what I have

expected. We made a manifesto pledge

2:26:352:26:40

regarding this issue. Reason why I

am here as a spokesman of the party

2:26:402:26:44

today is because we do support it

and we will go through the lobby on

2:26:442:26:48

it. I do think that the Waspi women

will be better served if we actually

2:26:482:26:55

had a debate that was not divisive,

not about point-scoring because

2:26:552:26:58

there is not a party, whether it is

Labour, liberal or conservative

2:26:582:27:02

parties which has not because some

of this problem.

I can point out

2:27:022:27:10

that what we are trying to do is set

out the facts of the arguments in

2:27:102:27:14

this house. These women have been

for too long been let down by

2:27:142:27:19

politicians, let's use the

opportunity we have today to give

2:27:192:27:22

them the result they deserve. Thanks

to freedom

2:27:222:27:26

the DWP only began writing to women

bond between April 1950 and April

2:27:292:27:38

1935 and did not complete the

process until 2012. Writing to women

2:27:382:27:44

about changes in legislation back to

1995 but did not start the formal

2:27:442:27:51

notification period for 14 years to

begin informing women that their

2:27:512:27:58

pension was going to be deferred.

Can you imagine the outcry in the

2:27:582:28:06

size of a private pension provider

was doing this. When you consider

2:28:062:28:09

the entitlement to state pensioners

through national insurance

2:28:092:28:15

contributions for over 40 years, is

quite stunning. It women born on the

2:28:152:28:22

6th of April 1953, who under the

previous legislation would have

2:28:222:28:25

retired on the 6th of April 2013

would have received a letter from

2:28:252:28:30

the DWP in January 2012 with the

bombshell that she wouldn't be

2:28:302:28:34

retiring on April 2013, she would be

retiring in July 2016. Three years

2:28:342:28:41

and three months later than she

might have expected, with 15 months

2:28:412:28:44

notice. That is what honourable

members opposite have been

2:28:442:28:49

defending. It is no wonder that the

Waspi women are insulted. 15 months

2:28:492:28:56

notice for what you thought was a

contract you had with the government

2:28:562:28:59

simply to be ripped up. And pensions

White Paper published in December

2:28:592:29:06

1993 it was stated that in

developing its proposals for

2:29:062:29:10

implementing the change, the

government has paid particular

2:29:102:29:12

attention to give people enough time

to plan ahead and says the change in

2:29:122:29:16

gradually. Not much there I would

disagree with but when you accept

2:29:162:29:21

the need for people to plan ahead,

you need to write and tell them. The

2:29:212:29:27

intent...

2:29:272:29:38

There is a serious point growing

from this. The amount of women in

2:29:392:29:44

their 60s who did not receive a

letter, then deferred their pensions

2:29:442:29:48

when they are 63, and they weren't

told in those deferments they should

2:29:482:29:55

have received it three years

earlier. This is another scandal of

2:29:552:29:59

how the DWP has not been honest in

those letters. Would you agree that

2:29:592:30:02

is something else the government has

-- should address?

The honourable

2:30:022:30:08

gentleman is quite correct. It is

yet another clear example of why

2:30:082:30:12

there is absolutely no excuse that

collectively we take action today.

2:30:122:30:15

We have got a choice. We recognise

the injustices that the women have

2:30:152:30:21

faced. While you sit and -- or use

it on your hands and you do nothing.

2:30:212:30:28

That is the choice. It is a bar --

about morality, Minister. It is

2:30:282:30:33

about doing the right thing. You can

look to the skies but it will not

2:30:332:30:37

remove the problem for you. I don't

want to wait until the end of the

2:30:372:30:41

debate, and we get another ten

minutes of ignoring the reality of

2:30:412:30:44

what is going on, because we have

had it for too long and it has to

2:30:442:30:48

stop, and it has to stop today.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the intent was

2:30:482:30:54

there in the White Paper from 1993.

It was 2009 before any formal

2:30:542:30:59

letters went out. Then we have the

issue of phasing in gradually. Where

2:30:592:31:04

we are is the increase in women's

pensionable age is increasing by

2:31:042:31:08

three months for every calendar

month that passes. It is simply

2:31:082:31:12

scandalous that women's pensionable

age is increasing so rapidly. It is

2:31:122:31:18

indefensible. It is not within the

spirit outlined in the government

2:31:182:31:22

White Paper in 1993. In October

2002, while giving evidence to the

2:31:222:31:28

select committee, the DWP suggested

that the role of the state was to

2:31:282:31:32

provide clear and accurate

information about what pensions will

2:31:322:31:37

provide some people can understand

how much they can expect a

2:31:372:31:39

retirement before it is too late to

do something about it. Madam Deputy

2:31:392:31:44

Speaker, before it is too late to do

something about it. How does that

2:31:442:31:48

statement equate with 15 months

notice? How can the Minister, how

2:31:482:31:53

can anyone who is not -- who is not

going to support this motion today,

2:31:532:31:58

support that lack of notice? It has

gone quiet now, hasn't it?

2:31:582:32:08

I'm extremely grateful to him. He is

very courteous and giving way. But

2:32:082:32:11

he did say he would pay for it over

the national. --. Ruth Kelly said it

2:32:112:32:23

is ring fenced and cannot be used

for other government expenditure.

2:32:232:32:29

I just...

LAUGHTER. Of course it's

2:32:332:32:40

ring-fenced. Pay it out! That is

what you have been asked to do.

2:32:402:32:57

No form of communication took place

until 2009, and the task was not

2:32:572:33:03

completed until 2012. The DWP had to

take responsibility for its failure

2:33:032:33:07

to communicate, and crucially, for

the lack of time women had to

2:33:072:33:10

prepare for an increase in their

state pension age. Rather than

2:33:102:33:14

recognising that women deserve to be

communicated with directly, the DWP

2:33:142:33:17

issued leaflets, headlined equality

in state pension age. Can anybody

2:33:172:33:22

remember them? No. I don't recall

seeing them either. That is no

2:33:222:33:28

surprise because when the DWP

commission resurgence 2004

2:33:282:33:32

highlighted that only 2% of

dependence said they had been

2:33:322:33:38

notified of changes, that is the

responsibility the government took.

2:33:382:33:43

Frankly, is an insult that the

government at the time thought

2:33:432:33:47

changes that affect a woman's's

retirement age could be delivered

2:33:472:33:50

with a leaflet. It was an abrogation

of responsibility and we have to

2:33:502:33:56

take responsibility for that

abrogation of responsibility. We

2:33:562:34:01

should all receive an annual

statement from the DWP just as we do

2:34:012:34:06

from private pension funds. I must

apologise, but because of time I

2:34:062:34:09

will have to move on. The failure to

communicate was highlighted by DWP

2:34:092:34:14

the -- a DWP publication which found

that only 43% of all women affected

2:34:142:34:21

by the increase in state pensionable

age were aware of the impact. If the

2:34:212:34:26

government accepts that women were

not informed in a timely manner, and

2:34:262:34:31

they didn't have that time to react,

why does the government not accept

2:34:312:34:35

its responsibilities? I am watching

the Minister. He is looking away. He

2:34:352:34:40

is not interested because he simply

doesn't want to hear the facts. When

2:34:402:34:44

will you accept your responsibility

for these women and engage in this

2:34:442:34:48

in a constructive manner? We also

know the government sent out letters

2:34:482:34:54

to men and women between May 2003

and November 2006, an automatic

2:34:542:35:01

state pension forecast. But the

letters did not contain any

2:35:012:35:04

information about state pension age.

You couldn't make this up. What they

2:35:042:35:09

did say was it wanted to find out

more about state pension age, please

2:35:092:35:17

see page ten of the guide for

details. What should have been

2:35:172:35:26

communicated was accurate, clear and

transparent information. It was a

2:35:262:35:29

failure of his department once

again. Another massive failure to

2:35:292:35:35

communicate from the government.

What is he going to do about it?

2:35:352:35:37

Nothing. The previous Pensions

Minister gave a Parliamentary answer

2:35:372:35:45

to me stating that the government

has committed not to change the

2:35:452:35:49

legislation relating to state

pension age for those people who are

2:35:492:35:52

within ten years of reaching it.

This provides these individuals with

2:35:522:35:56

certainty they need to plan for the

future. We recognise the importance

2:35:562:36:01

of ensuring people are aware of any

changes to their state pensionable

2:36:012:36:04

age. I welcome that statement. But

that recognition of ensuring people

2:36:042:36:08

were aware of changes was not

afforded to the 1950s statement. If

2:36:082:36:13

that statement from the Minister in

2016 is to have any credibility, the

2:36:132:36:18

Minister has to accept that the

women affected were not given that

2:36:182:36:22

courtesy and the government needs to

connect with it today. Madam Deputy

2:36:222:36:27

Speaker, to set the social economic

scheme -- scene, we know that only

2:36:272:36:33

52% of women are adequately saving

for retirement in comparison to 60%

2:36:332:36:40

of men. Female pensioners have a net

weekly income that is approximately

2:36:402:36:45

85% of their male counterparts. Over

two thirds of pensioners living in

2:36:452:36:51

poverty are penned -- are women. In

August, the IO Ferres revealed the

2:36:512:36:56

increase in state pension age has

left 1.1 million women £50 per week

2:36:562:37:01

worse off. The I first looked into

the government reform of the state

2:37:012:37:06

pension -- the ISS. The move to

increase the eligibility age meant

2:37:062:37:13

that income poverty rates were

pushed up substantially from 15% to

2:37:132:37:16

20%. That is just with the increase

in age from 60 to 63. An increase in

2:37:162:37:25

poverty. If the Minister going to

defend that? With the Tory MPs from

2:37:252:37:30

Scotland defend that? There has been

an 8.7% rise in the chance of a

2:37:302:37:39

woman aged between 60 and 63 being

in absolute poverty. In my

2:37:392:37:44

constituency Beragh 5400 we went --

5000 foreign women born in the

2:37:442:37:48

affected by this. Across Scotland,

the women is three and 40 7000.

2:37:482:37:58

Information figures have revealed

that while almost 4600

2:37:582:38:01

maladministration complaints have

been received by officials at the

2:38:012:38:06

Department of work on to is, only

six investigations have been

2:38:062:38:12

concluded. The process of dealing

with the complaints has taken so

2:38:122:38:19

long because there are only three

staff members dealing with the

2:38:192:38:24

complaints in the DWP. That is the

seriousness this government is

2:38:242:38:28

showing to this issue. The delays

have been so long that the pensions

2:38:282:38:35

ombudsman has forced the independent

Case Examiner to streamline the

2:38:352:38:38

process. What a farce, and an

indication the government does not

2:38:382:38:42

simply take its responsibilities for

the women. Another let down for the

2:38:422:38:48

women. The government have a

commitment to the women. It should

2:38:482:38:54

stop playing fast and loose with

their rights. Madam Deputy Speaker,

2:38:542:38:57

in a debate on the 5th of July, the

Pensions Minister talk about

2:38:572:39:02

employment or retraining

opportunities for women, saying the

2:39:022:39:09

government have extended

apprenticeship opportunities.

2:39:092:39:13

Apprenticeship opportunities. There

you have it. Women who worked for

2:39:132:39:16

more than 50 years in some cases,

can go on apprenticeship schemes. No

2:39:162:39:21

wonder later in his speech, the

minister claimed, I realise it is

2:39:212:39:26

not going down well. Let me say to

the Minister, Little wonder. 1950s

2:39:262:39:32

women don't want apprenticeship

schemes. 1950s women want their

2:39:322:39:36

pension. What they don't want is to

be pushed onto benefit because that

2:39:362:39:43

is what is happening. Between August

2013 and August 2017, the number of

2:39:432:39:49

people claiming Job Seekers

Allowance or Universal Credit across

2:39:492:39:52

all ages fell by 42%. We welcome

that. The number of 60s plus women

2:39:522:40:00

rose by 9500. A 113% increase. The

number of women aged over 60

2:40:002:40:08

claiming employment support

allowance increased by 121,000, a

2:40:082:40:14

massive 413%. That is the reality of

the increase, the sharp increase, of

2:40:142:40:22

a women's age pension. The reality

is women are being denied their

2:40:222:40:25

pension and this government is

forcing them onto benefits. That is

2:40:252:40:28

what is happening. Of course, the

Minister has been ridiculed by among

2:40:282:40:34

others the financial Times. The

minister was described as one in a

2:40:342:40:37

line of Pensions minister's with no

interest in pensions. He has no

2:40:372:40:42

interest in women's pensions. Today

Minister, start to take an interest,

2:40:422:40:46

and do the right thing by putting

mitigation in place. It is nothing

2:40:462:40:51

short of a disgrace that the

government found no remedy for the

2:40:512:40:55

women in its budget last week. The

Chancellor stood at the dispatch box

2:40:552:41:01

and extolled the virtues of spending

billions on Brexit, but failed to

2:41:012:41:06

address the injustice of female

pensioners. Traditional measures to

2:41:062:41:09

mitigate the issue would cost

significant less than the £30

2:41:092:41:13

billion figure. Independent research

by the SNP last year showed the true

2:41:132:41:20

cost would be 8 billion. We can find

billions for Brexit. Billions for

2:41:202:41:26

Trident. Not 1p for our pensioners

who were treated with contempt by

2:41:262:41:29

this government. It is bitterly

disappointing that the Chancellor

2:41:292:41:33

did not use the budget last week to

support the women. Once again, it

2:41:332:41:39

falls to the SNP by opening this

debate to be a voice in this house,

2:41:392:41:43

in this campaign, to press the UK

government to do the decent thing.

2:41:432:41:47

You have got it wrong, I admit it

and now thickset!

2:41:472:41:51

-- admitted.

Now thickset. The question is as on

2:41:512:41:57

the order paper. Just before I call

the Minister, I should warn

2:41:572:42:01

honourable members who wish to take

part in the debate that of course

2:42:012:42:04

time is limited. And in order they

might tailor their proposed speech

2:42:042:42:11

is accordingly, there will be a time

limit of three minutes.

2:42:112:42:18

Minister, Mr Guy Opperman.

Thank

you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Since

2:42:182:42:23

world War II we have seen a dramatic

change in life expectancy. We are

2:42:232:42:27

living longer, staying healthier,

fighting diseases that would have

2:42:272:42:31

previously killed us and leading a

more active lifestyle regardless of

2:42:312:42:34

age. Faced with Democratic --

demographic pressures successive

2:42:342:42:40

governments have acted. We must be

realistic about the Democratic and

2:42:402:42:44

fiscal challenges this creates as a

society. Taking forward-looking

2:42:442:42:49

action is critical to protecting the

long-term sustainability of the

2:42:492:42:52

state pension, not only for today's

taxpayers but future generations. In

2:42:522:42:57

July of this year, the government

published its first review of the

2:42:572:43:00

state pension age which sets out a

coherent strategy targeted at

2:43:002:43:04

strengthening and sustaining the

pension system for many decades to

2:43:042:43:08

come. It accepts the key

recommendations of the independent

2:43:082:43:10

review. That consulted with a number

of people and organisations,

2:43:102:43:16

including the Scottish National

Party, to bring forward the increase

2:43:162:43:19

in state pension age from 67 to 68

by 20s -- 2037.

2:43:192:43:25

I will give way. Can the minister

explained to the House be potential

2:43:252:43:32

debt impact on future generations of

spending up to 39 billion, reverting

2:43:322:43:38

to the 1995 timetable, as well as

Labour plans to freeze any increases

2:43:382:43:41

in the state pension age which cost

hundreds of billions?

I'm grateful

2:43:412:43:45

to my honourable friend for the

intervention. He has recognised the

2:43:452:43:49

fact that he has over 25 years

experience of working in the

2:43:492:43:52

pensions industry by his previous

journalistic experience. The reality

2:43:522:43:58

of the situation is that if the act

were to be revoked along with the

2:43:582:44:03

2011 act, that would cost well in

excess of £70 billion. If we were to

2:44:032:44:09

follow the path set out in the

Labour Party manifesto, which sees

2:44:092:44:12

all pension age to be restricted

post 66, that would cost

2:44:122:44:18

approximately £250 billion as

compared to the itinerary set out by

2:44:182:44:24

the independent review commissioned

by the government and provided in

2:44:242:44:28

the form of John Cridland. That

review was very clear. He quoted, in

2:44:282:44:35

1917, George L Allen the first

telegrams to those celebrating their

2:44:352:44:38

100th birthday. 20/ that year. In

2016, 60,000 would have received a

2:44:382:44:46

card from her Majesty. In 2050 we

expect over 56,000 people. Three

2:44:462:44:51

factors are at play. A growing

population, an ageing population as

2:44:512:44:58

the baby boomers retire. And an

unprecedented increase in life

2:44:582:45:00

expectancy. A baby girl born in 2017

can expect to live to be 94 years,

2:45:002:45:06

and a boy to be 91. By 2047 it could

well be 98 and 95 respectively. The

2:45:062:45:15

world of the third age is now a very

different one in which those lucky

2:45:152:45:19

enough to get the state pension will

on average spend almost a third of

2:45:192:45:23

their adult life in retirement, a

proportion never before reached.

2:45:232:45:33

I wonder if he could tell us what

specific help Jobcentre plus is able

2:45:332:45:39

to give older women to help them

retrain reskill to find

2:45:392:45:43

age-appropriate work. It's an issue

which a number of older women often

2:45:432:45:47

mentioned.

My honourable friend will

be aware that there is a great deal

2:45:472:45:53

of assistance provided from the job

coaches who are there but it's not

2:45:532:45:58

just the job coaches and the job

centres. I would refer him also to

2:45:582:46:02

the local job clubs which I'm sure

existing his constituency to the

2:46:022:46:07

individual flexible working

arrangements that have been

2:46:072:46:10

introduced and more particularly to

jobs fears were general of

2:46:102:46:13

colleagues are put forward, I have

done three culminating in the last

2:46:132:46:17

one in September which was highly

successful on that point and there

2:46:172:46:21

is all manner of private sector

support on an ongoing basis. I will

2:46:212:46:25

give way in a moment. I will address

the issue in relation to Scotland

2:46:252:46:29

because I was surprised at the

honourable gentleman for the

2:46:292:46:33

Scottish National Party refused ten

times to give away. If I were him I

2:46:332:46:36

would be saying... I will not go

that way. In relation to the

2:46:362:46:41

Scottish National Party, in addition

to the substantial support that the

2:46:412:46:44

UK Government is providing, this

being worth 50 billion across the

2:46:442:46:49

country and 6% of GDP, the Scottish

Government also has significant new

2:46:492:46:54

powers are available to it to tailor

Belper provision for people in

2:46:542:46:58

Scotland. Whilst pensions remain

reserved matter, the Scotland act

2:46:582:47:03

3016 has given the Scottish

Government the ability to use a wide

2:47:032:47:06

range of new welfare provisions. My

honourable friend for Aberdeen South

2:47:062:47:14

correctly set out the provisions of

section 28 of the Scotland act.

2:47:142:47:20

There are section 24 hours as well.

I would refer all colleagues on both

2:47:202:47:25

sides of the House to the letter

written to my predecessor by my

2:47:252:47:30

opposite number in the Scottish

Government and it may assist if I

2:47:302:47:34

make the point that the reality of

the situation is that she says as

2:47:342:47:41

follows, the power under section 26

is limited to providing help with

2:47:412:47:45

short-term needs and those needs

must require to avoid a risk to a

2:47:452:47:50

person's well-being. I would not

readily allowed assistance to the

2:47:502:47:56

majority of women increasing the

state pension age, the needs would

2:47:562:48:01

had to be individually assessed but

the point I make, with respect, is

2:48:012:48:05

that there is an acceptance in that

letter and has been made clear by

2:48:052:48:11

colleagues from the Scottish

Conservatives that there is the

2:48:112:48:16

power there, they commenced on the

fifth September 20 16th and it is up

2:48:162:48:20

to the Scottish Government to

determine how it will use those.

I'm

2:48:202:48:30

asking for your guidance of what we

can do, perhaps inadvertently, the

2:48:302:48:35

minister is seeking to mislead has

because it is crystal clear in the

2:48:352:48:40

Scotland Act 2016 that the Scottish

Government, the Scottish parliament

2:48:402:48:43

is not in a position of introducing

benefits by reason of old age. That

2:48:432:48:47

is quite clear and the Minister

should be truthful to the people of

2:48:472:48:51

this country and he should stop

blaming the Scottish National Party

2:48:512:48:54

and the Scottish Government for the

responsibility that solely lies here

2:48:542:48:59

with Westminster.

Further to that

point of order. I will answer this

2:48:592:49:06

point of order first. First of all,

the Minister will be being truthful,

2:49:062:49:12

secondly, this is a matter for

debate. The honourable gentleman

2:49:122:49:17

knows that. Further to that point of

order.

2:49:172:49:21

The contradiction that it is

impossible, as the honourable

2:49:232:49:27

gentleman said.

It is impossible to

inadvertently seek to mislead the

2:49:272:49:32

House. Rather it misleads it seeking

to do so or not.

Helpful advice. We

2:49:322:49:42

will carry on with the debate and I

would suggest that we move on

2:49:422:49:50

because time is very limited and

what we don't want to do is delay

2:49:502:49:54

the debate further by continuous

points of order.

2:49:542:49:57

I fully understand that position and

I will move on but I will make one

2:49:592:50:02

single point in replying. The

honourable gentleman will understand

2:50:022:50:06

that I was very specific to read the

letter of the 22nd of June from

2:50:062:50:11

Jeanne Freeman and set out what she

herself has said. When he makes the

2:50:112:50:19

points criticising me, he has to be

aware and conscious that he is

2:50:192:50:23

criticising somebody from his own

side. I give away.

In relation to

2:50:232:50:29

the point of order that was raised,

would you not agree with me that

2:50:292:50:33

actually the argument can be made

that if you are under the age of the

2:50:332:50:37

retirement age of 66, that is not

old age and already the Scottish

2:50:372:50:40

Government has been corresponding to

the DWP and the DWP have accepted

2:50:402:50:44

that very argument. They have the

powers, they just don't use them.

2:50:442:50:49

The reality of the situation is

given the motion that we face, one

2:50:492:50:54

has to ask what it is the Scottish

Government is doing and my

2:50:542:50:58

honourable friend is entirely right.

In relation to this matter, this

2:50:582:51:02

dates back of course to 1995, after

two years of debate and

2:51:022:51:10

consultation, the government

legislated to equalise the state

2:51:102:51:12

pension age to eliminate gender

inequalities in state pensions.

2:51:122:51:18

These were as a result welcome

increases in life expectancy and in

2:51:182:51:21

line with the anticipated increase

in the number of pensioners in years

2:51:212:51:24

to come. I will give way for a last

time.

The point he made about the

2:51:242:51:35

fact about job centres, half of

Glasgow's job centres are closing. I

2:51:352:51:41

asked them ten days ago in

Westminster Hall, can he do know

2:51:412:51:45

what the life expectancy in Glasgow

East is?

The honourable gentleman

2:51:452:51:49

will be aware that life expectancy

in all parts of the country have

2:51:492:51:53

increased over the last 30 years.

Without a shadow of a doubt, the

2:51:532:51:59

life expectancy is have increased in

all parts of the country in all

2:51:592:52:04

socio- economic groups and in the

circumstances that apply,, I

2:52:042:52:09

referred him to the Cleveland report

which accepts the situation --

2:52:092:52:14

in relation to this matter, I was

attempting to outline the situation

2:52:152:52:23

that we face with developments that

included the act of 1995 and 2007,

2:52:232:52:30

when the Labour Party were in power.

It is a shame that the Labour Party

2:52:302:52:35

is now scrapping the fiscal prudence

that they seemed to be demonstrating

2:52:352:52:39

under the 2007 act by revoking their

desire to increase the pension age

2:52:392:52:47

post-60 six. The reality is that

thereafter, under the coalition,

2:52:472:52:51

action was taken under the 2011 act

and the 2011 act introduced into

2:52:512:52:59

this house and the coalition saw

increases in the pension age as a

2:52:592:53:05

result of the enhanced life

expectancy that took place. At the

2:53:052:53:09

same stage. I will not give way any

more because I am conscious that

2:53:092:53:14

there are 20 speakers to speak. In

relation to automatic enrolment,

2:53:142:53:19

this was introduced in 2012 on a

cross-party basis after considerable

2:53:192:53:23

amount of time and the important

point is that the overall

2:53:232:53:27

participation of female eligible

employees in 2012 was 58% but since

2:53:272:53:33

the introduction of automatic

enrolment, this has increased to 80%

2:53:332:53:38

in 2016. For males this has

increased from 52% to 76% in the

2:53:382:53:43

same period. Private sector has also

seen a largest increase in

2:53:432:53:47

participation in workplace pensions

and in 2016 there was no mind gender

2:53:472:53:52

gap in participation rates. In the

circumstances I would respectfully

2:53:522:53:58

point out that the key choice

government faces in these

2:53:582:54:01

circumstances when seeking to

control state pensions and is

2:54:012:54:05

whether to increase state pension

age or pay lower pensions with an

2:54:052:54:09

inevitable impact on pensioner

poverty. The only alternative is to

2:54:092:54:13

ask the working generation to pay an

even larger share of their income to

2:54:132:54:18

support pensioners. Whilst increased

longevity is something to be

2:54:182:54:23

celebrated, we must also be

realistic about the demographic and

2:54:232:54:26

fiscal challenges it creates for us

as a society processes the early to

2:54:262:54:31

thousands it has been widely

recognised we face big questions in

2:54:312:54:35

society about how we ensure economic

security for people in retirement

2:54:352:54:39

whilst maintaining fairness between

generations. The pensions commission

2:54:392:54:42

in 2005 found a station pension --

state pension age of 65 or is not

2:54:422:54:51

affordable. The separate acts

responded to changes in life

2:54:512:54:59

expectancy by changing the state

pension age. At the same time the

2:54:592:55:02

state pension has been increased in

2010-2017 by £1250 per year. With

2:55:022:55:13

increasing financial pressures, as

described, we cannot change a policy

2:55:132:55:15

that has been plummeted over 22

years are supported by all major

2:55:152:55:19

political parties -- which has been

implemented. The cost of an ageing

2:55:192:55:24

population has to be shared out

freely without placing an unfair

2:55:242:55:27

financial burden on future

generations. -- shared out freely.

2:55:272:55:32

-- fairly.

2:55:322:55:36

I despair because I have stood at

this dispatch box in Westminster

2:55:382:55:42

Hall debate, I have worked on the

pension schemes Bill Withers matter

2:55:422:55:46

taking centre stage, I have spoken

like many others on this issue many

2:55:462:55:49

times but isn't this Scottish

National Party who I believe that

2:55:492:55:55

nonmembers are my own party and not

the 1950s born women had been

2:55:552:56:00

consistent, energetic and strong of

pushing this issue, it's party

2:56:002:56:03

opposite that is the reason we are

debating this topic yet again but we

2:56:032:56:07

know that there are many MPs there

who have pledged their support for

2:56:072:56:11

the women in speeches, and taking

photo opportunities and in becoming

2:56:112:56:14

members of the all-party

Parliamentary group. A few months

2:56:142:56:19

ago I said there were no fewer than

37 MPs on the government benches who

2:56:192:56:23

did so, among them the honourable

members for berries and Edmonds,

2:56:232:56:27

Eastleigh, Salisbury, North Devon,

North Caldwell, Colchester -- North

2:56:272:56:32

Cornwall. This week government

continues to stick their head in the

2:56:322:56:38

sand and hope suitors issue will go

away. -- hopes this issue will go

2:56:382:56:43

away. I2 any times I have visited it

pensions minister, this is not going

2:56:432:56:49

to go away. I am impatient and

standing here begin debating this

2:56:492:56:53

topic when the government could do

something to fix the problem right

2:56:532:56:57

now. I don't understand the politics

of why the government refusing to

2:56:572:57:01

address it. The angered the older

generation during the auditor -- the

2:57:012:57:08

older generation and look at what

happened, they failed to get the

2:57:082:57:15

majority and are hanging on by their

teeth.

2:57:152:57:17

As a 1950s it women I am sympathetic

to the 4000 Waspi women in my

2:57:192:57:23

constituency and as my honourable

friend agree with me that what the

2:57:232:57:28

government has failed to understand

is that some of these women have

2:57:282:57:30

been working since they were 15.

That is most certainly the case and

2:57:302:57:37

the government need to understand

that my wife herself has been

2:57:372:57:42

working since that young age. Yet

were some reason the government are

2:57:422:57:46

persistent in pushing huge numbers

of 50s born women into financial

2:57:462:57:50

difficulty and distress. It's time

for the government to put their

2:57:502:57:53

pride aside and do what is right.

2:57:532:57:57

I thank my honourable friend for

acknowledging the financial plight

2:57:582:58:02

many of these women have been

entered into. My constituency, I

2:58:022:58:06

have got women have been forced to

sell their homes, remortgage their

2:58:062:58:10

homes and to use the money they had

set aside for their retirement to

2:58:102:58:14

spend it now to exist. Their

retirement will be increased in its

2:58:142:58:17

poverty because of that. That has

not been acknowledged at all by the

2:58:172:58:21

government.

Indeed it has not and

there will be many examples we will

2:58:212:58:26

hear is this debate goes on this

afternoon. I have heard from

2:58:262:58:30

numerous women affected by the

changes and heard stories of their

2:58:302:58:34

desperation and fear and it is clear

about how the ugly to call in

2:58:342:58:38

poverty, in poverty, as they wait

longer for their state pension --

2:58:382:58:49

about how fearful they are to go

into poverty. The job market with

2:58:492:58:53

skills needed in today's workplace

are a very different world from that

2:58:532:58:56

of 40 years ago.

Dawes honourable

friend agree with me that the

2:58:562:59:06

government have a real opportunity,

the bollards in their court, before

2:59:062:59:09

the joint action, the action from

the administration compels the

2:59:092:59:13

government to act.

That is very much

the case and thank you to reference

2:59:132:59:19

that. What we have is a system that

doesn't help older people to get

2:59:192:59:25

back into meaningful employment. We

have a welfare system that is torn

2:59:252:59:30

to pieces, disabled people being

humiliated through repetitive

2:59:302:59:33

assessments and a state pension that

is becoming increasingly difficult

2:59:332:59:37

to access. The Labour Party have

laid at our approach to reducing the

2:59:372:59:41

strain on vulnerable and struggling

women to extended pension credit who

2:59:412:59:45

were due to retire before the

pension increased to alleviate the

2:59:452:59:49

toughest circumstances and restore

the faith and dignity that many feel

2:59:492:59:52

they have lost. Extending pension

credit would provide support with up

2:59:522:59:56

to £135 per week to half a million

of the most vulnerable women who had

2:59:563:00:00

been affected by this increase in

the state pension age.

3:00:003:00:06

We propose allowing those affected

to receive their state pension up to

3:00:063:00:10

two years early to give women the

choice of what works best.

I have

3:00:103:00:16

got a great deal of sympathy for the

women concerned. The issue is about

3:00:163:00:21

paying for it. I know it is an issue

the Labour Party don't tend to

3:00:213:00:26

concern themselves with. I would

support taking money from the

3:00:263:00:29

overseas aid budget to help some

transitional arrangements for these

3:00:293:00:33

women. Would the Shadow minister

show his concerned by agreeing to

3:00:333:00:38

that, or does he put overseas aid

ahead of the WASPI women?

We know as

3:00:383:00:46

Jeep DP is going down, the amount of

money being spent overseas is

3:00:463:00:50

reducing. -- GDP. If we need to find

the money, we can start looking

3:00:503:00:56

within British budgets in order to

do that. Why doesn't the government

3:00:563:01:03

look at our proposals? Why don't

they give these women some hope? We

3:01:033:01:07

have heard from the Minister. We

have heard that it is not the

3:01:073:01:11

government position to make further

concessions. I urge him to go back

3:01:113:01:15

to the Secretary of State after this

debate and persuade him to think

3:01:153:01:18

again. Earlier this year the

Secretary of State said the

3:01:183:01:23

Department of work and pensions

would look into individual cases of

3:01:233:01:27

hardship. We know from a Freedom of

information request that the DWP has

3:01:273:01:32

concluded just a handful of

complaint investigations relating to

3:01:323:01:37

the 50s born women campaign, with

over 4500 complaints received. Can

3:01:373:01:43

the Minister update the House on the

progress on these complaints?

I

3:01:433:01:49

thank him forgiving way. Isn't the

real situation here, like my

3:01:493:01:53

constituent who wrote to me a

fortnight ago, someone born in 1954

3:01:533:01:58

who had been in insecure, low paid

work with no access to occupational

3:01:583:02:03

pension, and the government must

address this issue.

I said a few

3:02:033:02:09

minutes ago we would hear many

further examples of the plight that

3:02:093:02:13

is being faced by 50s born women and

of course that is yet another one.

3:02:133:02:17

Whilst I agree this is a mess

created by the government, I wanted

3:02:173:02:22

to touch upon the Scottish

government and their powers around

3:02:223:02:26

Social Security. I know there have

been heated exchanges on this

3:02:263:02:29

already. The SNP says it cannot act

in Scotland because pension

3:02:293:02:35

provision is a matter reserved for

the UK government. Although that is

3:02:353:02:39

true, the Scotland act gave the SNP

powers to top up are create new

3:02:393:02:45

Social Security 's policies. They

denied they had the powers to act to

3:02:453:02:51

introduce these new benefits based

on age. Perhaps the Minister could

3:02:513:02:55

agree and commit this afternoon to

publish a clear paper, outlining

3:02:553:03:01

exactly what they believe the

Scottish government can

3:03:013:03:12

matter will be clear once and for

all. Labour committed to extending

3:03:123:03:14

paying credit... Use your powers

north of the border to help women

3:03:143:03:27

there. If they are insufficient,

chat to the government. They believe

3:03:273:03:34

you do have the powers.

I appreciate

the Minister for allowing me to

3:03:343:03:41

intervene. I don't think anybody on

these benches feels the need for any

3:03:413:03:46

clarification because it is already

there. We all remember very vividly

3:03:463:03:50

how it was the Conservatives, and

I'm not trying to make a party

3:03:503:03:55

point, but the Labour Party as well,

that made sure we didn't have power

3:03:553:03:59

over pensions.

Nobody is suggesting

you do. You could have Social

3:03:593:04:08

Security policies you could use. I

would suggest again you chat to the

3:04:083:04:13

government. You need to get your

heads together and actually discuss

3:04:133:04:17

quite rationally. I would rather see

a paper published by the government

3:04:173:04:20

actually spelling this out. Now

Madam Deputy Speaker, I don't want

3:04:203:04:25

to remain standing here yet again to

debate this issue. I don't want to

3:04:253:04:30

see us raising the hopes of the 50s

born women who are fighting because

3:04:303:04:34

this is their livelihood we are

talking about. I want the Minister

3:04:343:04:37

to do something. To reach out across

the benches and work for a real

3:04:373:04:42

solution to demonstrate that this

House is listening to the residents

3:04:423:04:45

of this country. Before I conclude,

and I'm nearly finished, before I

3:04:453:04:49

conclude, I would like to ask the

Minister what his department is

3:04:493:04:54

doing in relation to legal challenge

mentioned by my honourable friend,

3:04:543:04:59

what is the government doing about

the legal challenge from the WASPI

3:04:593:05:02

campaigners? Has he made

contingencies for the day when the

3:05:023:05:07

courts may well rule against the

government in order that the 50s

3:05:073:05:12

born women are compensated? What is

actually happening in relation to

3:05:123:05:16

that? Whilst we support the SNP

motion today, I think we need the

3:05:163:05:20

House to be able to vote on a motion

that would be binding on the

3:05:203:05:24

government.

I'm grateful to him

forgiving way. The government does

3:05:243:05:30

not believe there has been

maladministration by the Department

3:05:303:05:34

of work and pensions in relation to

the legal claim, and that includes

3:05:343:05:40

the 13 years when the Labour Party

was in power. The second point is in

3:05:403:05:44

relation to his assertions on the

Scottish government, the situation

3:05:443:05:48

is that I cited the letter from the

Scottish government themselves on

3:05:483:05:51

the 22nd of June by Jeane Freeman,

my opposite number.

I am very

3:05:513:05:57

grateful to the Minister for that

intervention. But he knows as well

3:05:573:06:01

as I do that successive governments

have turned over time and time again

3:06:013:06:06

and and up having to pay for it.

What I want to say, I want to see a

3:06:063:06:15

motion that means something, a

motion that would be binding on the

3:06:153:06:18

government, that would make

something happen to deliver some of

3:06:183:06:21

the release many of these women

desperately need. We will continue

3:06:213:06:24

to look for that opportunity. Then

we will call out the supporters of

3:06:243:06:29

the 50s born women on all sides of

the house to vote for that relief

3:06:293:06:33

and actually make something happen.

Thank you.

3:06:333:06:36

Thank you. This is a matter that we

have debated on numerous occasions.

3:06:363:06:42

It is important that it is not used

for the purpose of political

3:06:423:06:48

expediency because many people are

experiencing very serious

3:06:483:06:51

challenges. It is necessary for us

to listen to them and to seek to

3:06:513:06:57

address their concerns in a

responsible, financially prudent but

3:06:573:07:01

also a just and fairway. I have

received a great deal of

3:07:013:07:07

correspondence over the past few

years from constituents graphically

3:07:073:07:10

highlighting the challenge they

face. When many of us present

3:07:103:07:16

petitions in this chamber last

autumn, I was in the second place

3:07:163:07:20

behind the honourable member for

Hull north in terms of the number of

3:07:203:07:24

people who had signed the Waverley

petition of just under 2250. This

3:07:243:07:30

petition was endorsed unanimously by

Conservative run Waverly district

3:07:303:07:33

Council. The impact of these changes

is being felt disproportionately

3:07:333:07:38

across the UK. In those areas where

there has been traditional women

3:07:383:07:41

going out to work, whether in

factories, agriculture, fishing,

3:07:413:07:45

food processing or clerical post,

often part-time, not on high

3:07:453:07:53

salaries, these changes are

affecting a lot of women in their

3:07:533:07:56

families -- and their families. In

my constituency this has been the

3:07:563:08:01

case that many of those businesses

are no longer there. There were

3:08:013:08:04

numerous jobs in the fishing

industry and support industries

3:08:043:08:09

there, and the television factory. I

acknowledge the challenges the

3:08:093:08:14

government face in addressing this

injustice both in terms of coming up

3:08:143:08:17

with a solution that is fair and

affordable, and complies with

3:08:173:08:23

equalities legislation. I urge them

to work and to look at this very

3:08:233:08:26

carefully going forward. There are

numbered -- two current Private

3:08:263:08:34

Members' Bill is before Parliament

which propose a review of these

3:08:343:08:37

pension arrangements. One from my

honourable friend, the member for

3:08:373:08:43

Wellingborough, and the other from

my honourable friend, the member for

3:08:433:08:45

Swansea East. I am a supporter of

the latter bill. I urge the

3:08:453:08:50

government to consider carrying out

a full and proper, meaningful

3:08:503:08:55

review. And for that reason I will

not be supporting this motion

3:08:553:09:00

tonight because I don't believe it

provides the evidence base that we

3:09:003:09:03

need to find a fair, affordable and

just solution. In conclusion, as I

3:09:033:09:11

have mentioned, this is an issue

which is disproportionately

3:09:113:09:15

affecting specific part of the

country. I does ask the government

3:09:153:09:19

to carry out the search to establish

the extent of the problem which can

3:09:193:09:23

then be used to arrive at a fair and

affordable solution that addresses

3:09:233:09:28

pockets of area in the country where

there is a real problem.

3:09:283:09:37

The last time I spoke on this matter

I said I welcome the opportunity to

3:09:373:09:41

make another contribution on the

WASPI. That was over 18 months ago.

3:09:413:09:46

I don't welcome having to make this

argument again. I think it is

3:09:463:09:50

absolutely ridiculous this

government has refused to help this

3:09:503:09:53

-- these women, whose only crime was

to be born in the 1950s. Governments

3:09:533:10:00

difference persuasions have been

culpable. We can sit and squabble

3:10:003:10:03

all day about who did what and who's

to blame. The problem is in the here

3:10:033:10:07

and now the reality is kicking in

fur women in Ayrshire North. There

3:10:073:10:12

are 3.7 million women and their

families across the UK. It forced

3:10:123:10:18

the government to address this mess.

I pay tribute to the WASPI campaign.

3:10:183:10:22

Once again, all these women are

asking for is fairness. This is the

3:10:223:10:27

11th time, the 11th time that the

plight has been debated in this

3:10:273:10:31

House. There have been many

responses ranging from the

3:10:313:10:36

incompetent to everything in

between. I was hoping for a better

3:10:363:10:39

speech from the Minister, given the

precarious position of this Prime

3:10:393:10:47

Minister and this government. I have

spoken to members opposite. I have

3:10:473:10:56

overheard conversations about this

issue where members conceded was

3:10:563:10:58

bungled and they accept that many

women impacted by this reform were

3:10:583:11:02

only told 13 years after the changes

were made. But it's just too darn

3:11:023:11:08

expensive to do anything about it.

But times have changed. The

3:11:083:11:11

Chancellor has found his magic money

tree. £1 billion to the DWP. £6.7

3:11:113:11:19

billion for Brexit negotiations.

Before you know it is it is real

3:11:193:11:22

money. Billions on Castro votes but

nothing for these women who put into

3:11:223:11:27

the system all of their lives. --

Castro votes. Many of the women

3:11:273:11:34

affected will face further burdens

in their cost of living. It is vital

3:11:343:11:39

now more than ever that they are

supported. This is why we will not

3:11:393:11:43

stop until justice is served. The

Chancellor's budget was a huge

3:11:433:11:47

missed opportunity to offer

protection from the WASPI women. As

3:11:473:11:54

it continues to shirk its

responsibility is, I hope those

3:11:543:11:57

Scottish Tories keen to support the

WASPI campaign will vote with their

3:11:573:12:01

consciences rather than according to

the whips. In conclusion, I would

3:12:013:12:06

like to echo the words of the former

member for Foyle, Mark Durkan, who

3:12:063:12:10

has been a great loss to this House.

He said, in a passionate

3:12:103:12:15

contribution in one of the previous

WASPI debates, if we fail to pass

3:12:153:12:18

this motion, we will be saying those

women are unacceptable casualty on

3:12:183:12:23

the way to quality. We can -- we

cannot accept it.

3:12:233:12:31

Equalising the state pension age

between men and women is a principle

3:12:313:12:36

the UK government, the WASPI

campaign and all of us in this

3:12:363:12:38

chamber agree. However, there is

rightly concerned at the unfair and

3:12:383:12:45

disproportionate women born in the

1950s. This is shared on all sides

3:12:453:12:51

of this house. In my constituency of

Aberdeen South, 5200 women are

3:12:513:12:55

affected. Since the general election

in June I have been meeting with

3:12:553:13:02

local women who have been impacted

by these changes and who in some

3:13:023:13:05

cases have had to radically change

their retirement plans because they

3:13:053:13:10

were not made properly aware of the

1995 changes. One constituent I

3:13:103:13:17

recently met was employed in NHS

Grampian 439 years. Her whole

3:13:173:13:21

working life she worked hard, she

worked she had no maternity leave,

3:13:213:13:26

she had no long-term sick leave

until June -- during the last few

3:13:263:13:30

years of her work, because of cancer

of first the womb and then the bone

3:13:303:13:35

marrow, she had to take a couple of

months of. Then she requested to

3:13:353:13:41

take retirement. She was 60 on

December the 1st 2016. Because of

3:13:413:13:45

the changes in state pension policy,

she's not receiving a state pension,

3:13:453:13:50

even though she paid in full for 39

years.

3:13:503:13:59

This has caused concern for my

constituent. Last Friday, I met with

3:13:593:14:03

a constituent who is 61, expecting

to receive her state pension in

3:14:033:14:08

2016. She has contributed to

national insurance for over 40 years

3:14:083:14:11

and received her first letter from

the DWP about the age changes in

3:14:113:14:16

2013. At that time she was in full

employment and good health. Her

3:14:163:14:21

circumstances changed when she was

made redundant and diagnosed with

3:14:213:14:24

breast cancer. I'm thankful my

constituent has made a recovery

3:14:243:14:28

through successful treatment.

However, she finds herself in a

3:14:283:14:31

situation of having no income. The

downturn in oil and gas in Aberdeen

3:14:313:14:36

has made it very difficult to even

get a job interview. At the moment,

3:14:363:14:39

she is having to rely on the very

pot of savings she worked hard to

3:14:393:14:44

build up. I want to highlight these

cases as a reminder that the state

3:14:443:14:48

pension system is founded on a

contributory principle. It is not a

3:14:483:14:52

welfare benefit. These cases show

that this group of women have done

3:14:523:14:55

the right thing, worked hard all

their lives, paid their dues in good

3:14:553:15:02

faith and are getting short-changed.

It is not fair. We had a lot of

3:15:023:15:05

bluster from the benches opposite.

Let's be clear that the Scottish

3:15:053:15:12

Government have the power to make a

change. They have shown that not

3:15:123:15:14

only are they incompetent at using

them, they refuse to use them. Let's

3:15:143:15:20

be absolutely clear that my

constituents know that I will make

3:15:203:15:23

their voices heard loud and clear in

this place.

Thank you. Here we go

3:15:233:15:34

again. Another day, another debate

discussing the injustice to the

3:15:343:15:39

1950s women as a result of the

pension changes. Over 3 million

3:15:393:15:44

women have lost out because of the

changes to pension law. Over 3000 on

3:15:443:15:48

my own constituency of Swansea East

have been unfairly treated by the

3:15:483:15:54

changes to state pension.

I thank my

friend forgiving way. Does she agree

3:15:543:16:01

with me that many of these women

have worked in manual jobs since

3:16:013:16:04

they were 15, sometimes 14 years of

age? They deserve fair play.

I

3:16:043:16:11

certainly agree. These women have

been the backbone of our country and

3:16:113:16:15

they have been betrayed by this

government. What is really scary is

3:16:153:16:20

how many women don't realise that

they have been affected. And yet

3:16:203:16:24

this government are still not

listening. They have betrayed these

3:16:243:16:27

women, they have stolen their

security and they have shattered

3:16:273:16:31

their dreams. Without the time to

prepare and make the necessary

3:16:313:16:34

alternative arrangements, very many

women born in the 1950s have been

3:16:343:16:39

left in financial despair. I

certainly will.

The Honourable

3:16:393:16:46

Member talked about shattering

lives. In my constituency, women

3:16:463:16:50

have some of the shortest life

expectancy is in the islands and it

3:16:503:16:54

is a brutal attack on end of life

progress, if they are living with a

3:16:543:16:58

long-term condition that comes to a

brutal end with no pension from the

3:16:583:17:00

government.

It's cruel, there is no

other way to describe the current

3:17:003:17:07

state of play. These women have

fought tirelessly for justice.

3:17:073:17:12

Appallingly, there tries for justice

are falling on deaf ears. I think

3:17:123:17:16

most people are aware of my passion

for this campaign, and I know the

3:17:163:17:22

women are not going to give up, so

none of us are going away. You know

3:17:223:17:26

what? The problem isn't going away.

These 1950s women have been

3:17:263:17:31

inexcusably disadvantaged by the

handling and communication of the

3:17:313:17:35

state, changes to the state pension.

Some women will be as much as

3:17:353:17:39

£40,000 out of pocket. These women

have paid into the system since the

3:17:393:17:45

1960s. They paid in, with the

expectation they would retire with a

3:17:453:17:51

state pension at 60. Due to an

abysmal lack of correspondence, they

3:17:513:17:56

find themselves severely out of

pocket. They have not been given

3:17:563:18:00

enough time to make alternative

arrangements. As a result, very many

3:18:003:18:05

are facing dire financial hardship.

3:18:053:18:10

Obviously this is a UK wide issue,

it is not an issue just of women in

3:18:153:18:19

Scotland. Can I just say, the women

I have spoken to are not looking for

3:18:193:18:24

the kind of crisis grants that the

Scottish Government can deliver,

3:18:243:18:28

they do not want to go begging, they

actually want what they are due.

Not

3:18:283:18:34

wanted to get involved in the

argument about what the Scottish

3:18:343:18:38

Government can and cannot do, I

agree that this is a matter that

3:18:383:18:42

affects all women, regardless of

their nationality. Many in this

3:18:423:18:49

house stand by these women. I call

upon the government to make a

3:18:493:18:53

commitment, to look again at this

gross injustice and discuss a

3:18:533:18:57

productive and constructive way

forward for the women affected. Some

3:18:573:19:07

women were expected to jump through

hoops to receive unemployment

3:19:073:19:12

benefits. They do so, risking their

own physical and mental health. The

3:19:123:19:17

reality is that these women are

desperate. It has affected women

3:19:173:19:22

from all over the country, and they

are calling my office every day,

3:19:223:19:25

letting me know that they have had

to... I'm going to make progress.

3:19:253:19:28

They are going to have to sell their

belongings, they are relying on

3:19:283:19:33

family and friends, and food banks,

just to exist. This is the reality.

3:19:333:19:38

I understand this may not be

comfortable to listen to, but it is

3:19:383:19:43

reality. These women are only asking

for compassion, for fair play, and,

3:19:433:19:52

most importantly, for respect. I

call on this government to stop

3:19:523:19:56

burying their heads in the sand and

do the right thing by these women.

3:19:563:19:59

My bill is due for a second reading

in April. It states that these women

3:19:593:20:03

need reasonable transactional

arrangements to allow them... I'm

3:20:033:20:08

going to make progress. Not just to

enjoy retirement, but to survive

3:20:083:20:12

retirement. Across the house, so

many agree that these changes to the

3:20:123:20:18

state pension are unjust and unfair.

They agree that these women have

3:20:183:20:23

been robbed of a pension.

That is

the word.

When will the Government

3:20:233:20:32

recognise the mistake they have

made? These women will not be

3:20:323:20:34

ignored.

Over the past two and a

half years I have met with many

3:20:343:20:43

constituents that have been affected

directly by the various changes in

3:20:433:20:46

the state pension age. Talking to

them and listening to them, it is

3:20:463:20:53

impossible not to feel every

sympathy with the circumstances in

3:20:533:20:55

which many find themselves. I know

that if I found out I will not be

3:20:553:21:05

able to retire at the age I

respected, I would tell you how it

3:21:053:21:08

would feel, but I feel it might be

unparliamentary language. What I can

3:21:083:21:16

say is, as a teenage boy in nearly

1990s, I probably didn't pay as much

3:21:163:21:20

attention to women's pensions as

many people. But I do remember in

3:21:203:21:30

1993 when it was announced that the

state pension age was going to have

3:21:303:21:34

to be equalised upwards. There was

widespread publicity at the time,

3:21:343:21:41

through the media, as well as

through the leaflets to which the

3:21:413:21:44

honourable gentleman refers.

Nonetheless, it is clear that there

3:21:443:21:53

are many women that, for one reason

or another, were genuinely unaware,

3:21:533:21:57

as late as 2012, 6% of women still

expected to retire at 60, in spite

3:21:573:22:12

of the 11 million letters that have

been sent out by the DWP. However,

3:22:123:22:16

that was significant progress since

2004, when 73% of women affected

3:22:163:22:27

were aware of the 1995 reforms that

the state pension age was changed

3:22:273:22:33

by. Clearly, there are solid reasons

why successive governments and many

3:22:333:22:41

other developed economies have been

increasing and equalising their

3:22:413:22:45

state pension age. The fact that

even a relatively small proportion

3:22:453:22:56

of people affected were unaware of

things that were going to have such

3:22:563:22:59

a large impact on their retirement,

I think it raises broader issues

3:22:593:23:05

about how public authorities can

communicate issues surrounding

3:23:053:23:11

pensions that I think government at

all levels has to consider. The

3:23:113:23:20

truth is that the state pension age

is not going to be reduced to 60. It

3:23:203:23:24

would arguably be illegal under

anti-discrimination legislation. We

3:23:243:23:29

have to look at what can be done to

not only help those women born in

3:23:293:23:34

the 1950s back into work, but all of

those that are going to find

3:23:343:23:37

themselves working later. I hope the

Government can come up with further

3:23:373:23:41

suggestions as to what support can

be provided.

3:23:413:23:46

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

When people ask me what it is like

3:23:473:23:53

Westminster, quite often I feel I

live in a parallel universe to the

3:23:533:23:59

Tory party opposite. I am sure that

they feel the same about me. Looking

3:23:593:24:07

at some of the concerns I have heard

from Tories recently, we have heard

3:24:073:24:11

about concerns about whether big

by... Big Ben is going to bong or

3:24:113:24:21

not, if clerks are going to wear

wigs, if you can ask questions

3:24:213:24:25

without a tie, that some other

things that have concerned the

3:24:253:24:27

Tories opposite. Then I hear them

saying, my neighbours up job

3:24:273:24:33

centres, they hear people saying it

is great being in Universal Credit,

3:24:333:24:36

I find work. I meet these people at

the Jobcentre. The Debuchy Prime

3:24:363:24:47

Minister said that the WASPI should

be able to get a printer ships, the

3:24:473:24:51

Chancellor recently said there is no

unemployed. They said the majority

3:24:513:24:54

of people knew about the changes to

the pension age. That is a different

3:24:543:24:56

world that they live in, compared to

the one I live in.

I would like to

3:24:563:25:05

ask the minister opposite what is

wrong with a woman aged 65 taking an

3:25:053:25:10

apprenticeship? Why would he deny

any woman the chance to work at the

3:25:103:25:16

age of 65? Why?

That is a nonsense

argument. I would have thought they

3:25:163:25:27

would get paid apprenticeship levy

as well, a shocking the minimum wage

3:25:273:25:31

for apprenticeships. The Honourable

Member for Taunton and Dean stood up

3:25:313:25:34

and said the people of Taunton have

thousands of pounds more money in

3:25:343:25:38

their pocket. It really is a

different world. We know that people

3:25:383:25:43

in Universal Credit struggle and

their debts increase. We know that

3:25:433:25:47

food bank usage is up. I cannot give

way of too many people want to

3:25:473:25:50

speak. It is only this month that a

British medical journey study

3:25:503:25:55

estimated that up to 120,000 deaths

in England and Wales could be

3:25:553:26:00

attributed to the Tory austerity

policy. It people aged 60 plus are

3:26:003:26:06

most at risk. It only touches on the

world that some of the WASPI women

3:26:063:26:13

inhabit. Having to sell homes and

downsize to survive, mental health

3:26:133:26:18

problems associated with stress, the

humiliation of seeking jobs, marital

3:26:183:26:21

pressure and marital break-ups. Even

living with the daily anger and

3:26:213:26:27

disappointment at being let down by

the state, and to be let down by

3:26:273:26:31

this government that refuses to

listen. During the last SNP

3:26:313:26:35

opposition debate, the then

Secretary of State challenged our

3:26:353:26:39

costed proposals, £8 billion to

reverse the 2011 act. He said, we

3:26:393:26:43

need to look at the longer term

horizon. Well, just a few months

3:26:433:26:49

later the Tories trekked through the

lobby, the next Budget, and voted

3:26:493:26:53

for £30 billion of tax cuts,

corporation tax giveaways. Even if

3:26:533:27:02

it is going to cost £30 billion, it

could have been found and it was

3:27:023:27:09

there in the last Budget. This

Budget has just been passed. £3.2

3:27:093:27:13

billion stamp duty tax ever way that

is going to increase house prices.

3:27:133:27:19

£3.7 billion for Brexit preparations

and an additional £7 billion for the

3:27:193:27:23

National productivity fun. I welcome

that money, but it shows that the

3:27:233:27:27

magic money tree exists and the

money can be found whenever the

3:27:273:27:30

Tories want it. We have actually

heard before that there is an

3:27:303:27:33

argument that the state pension

equalisation is all because of the

3:27:333:27:37

bad EU, EU rules that has forced it

upon us. I've not heard one of the

3:27:373:27:43

Brexiteers in the government coming

and saying that one of the benefits

3:27:433:27:46

of leaving the EU is that we can

reverse the 2011 act. They never

3:27:463:27:52

said, let's stick it to the EU and

give these women what they deserve.

3:27:523:27:56

It is high time this Government

starts listening.

Like my honourable

3:27:563:28:04

friend the member for Dudley South,

I agree with his point that when you

3:28:043:28:09

meet the WASPI campaigners, they are

very passionate and tenacious. One

3:28:093:28:13

does sympathise with those that,

having saved all their lives, they

3:28:133:28:17

feel they were not given adequate

notice. Obviously there is a very

3:28:173:28:21

legitimate grievance there. The

point is this. As parliamentarians,

3:28:213:28:25

if we decide to go through a

division lobby and vote for

3:28:253:28:28

something, to join a cause, to jump

on a bandwagon, we must honestly

3:28:283:28:33

have a credible funded policy to

stand behind, otherwise we are

3:28:333:28:39

selling snake oil. Once again, we

have it from the Scottish National

3:28:393:28:45

Party. They still say you can use a

national insurance surplus. Just to

3:28:453:28:49

read a fume or written answers about

the ability to use the national

3:28:493:28:54

insurance surplus, which is their

policy of how they are going to save

3:28:543:28:57

the WASPI women. Mike O'Brien,

former minister, he said, any

3:28:573:29:02

surplus of national insurance

contributions over Social Security

3:29:023:29:04

benefits in any one year is not an

extra resource available to spend. A

3:29:043:29:09

written question from my honourable

friend, the Honourable Member for

3:29:093:29:17

East Ham responded. He said, what of

the merits of using future national

3:29:173:29:25

insurance surplus to fund the

policy? The response was, and

3:29:253:29:28

increasing the basic state pension

has a cumulative impact going

3:29:283:29:31

forward. The government consider the

short-term use of the surplus on the

3:29:313:29:36

national insurance fund to be

unsustainable in the long term. Not

3:29:363:29:39

least because it has been in and

cyclical. Any of us that say we

3:29:393:29:45

support the WASPI women, we have to

outline which line of taxation or

3:29:453:29:50

which line of expenditure in the red

book we are prepared to use to pay

3:29:503:29:53

for it.

3:29:533:29:57

The position of the SNP is partisan,

so it does the WASPI campaign no

3:29:573:30:03

favour for all that there are women

in my constituency who are

3:30:033:30:07

experiencing hardship. Does he agree

with me it would be far more

3:30:073:30:11

constructive to look at sensible

affordable measures such as early

3:30:113:30:16

draw down of bus passes that address

the genuine need that exists.

Of

3:30:163:30:21

course, there are measures that we

can look at. The point I am saying

3:30:213:30:26

is unless we identify specific lines

of tax or expenditure to pay for it,

3:30:263:30:30

the money is simply being borrowed

and paided for by future generation

3:30:303:30:36

dryinged to give way.

Very grateful.

I have heard that lot about how

3:30:363:30:40

nobody is coming to us with a plan

about what we can do, like I said,

3:30:403:30:44

we came up with a plan, we think we

can argue for it. If the honourable

3:30:443:30:49

member disagrees with it, come up

with a plan. We have been waiting

3:30:493:30:55

for months, years for the Government

to come forward with some kind of

3:30:553:30:59

proposal because the 2011 one

clearly isn't good enough.

3:30:593:31:03

The honourable lady is missing the

point. I am I know standing with the

3:31:033:31:09

anger, so high on my high o horse

that my ears pop, I am not doing

3:31:093:31:13

that, if you go out on a limb to

that degree, you have to have a

3:31:133:31:18

credible policy behind it, you have

to be able to say this is how we

3:31:183:31:22

will pay for it. I don't feel I

should give way again, the

3:31:223:31:26

honourable gentleman was general us

to me so I will do, there are people

3:31:263:31:29

who follow me so I will wind up

straight after.

Can I point out,

3:31:293:31:33

what we have done today is put

forward a straightforward motion

3:31:333:31:37

that asks the Government to bring

forward mitigation. We gave him a

3:31:373:31:41

costed proposal last year. It was

about deferring the increase in

3:31:413:31:47

imwith's pensionable age. That is

one option, question have done the

3:31:473:31:53

work, the Government hasn't done

its.

I gave way, I am going to wind

3:31:533:31:57

up. £8 billion is is a huge amount,

you have to identify a specific area

3:31:573:32:06

of taxation or expenditure, until

people are prepared to do that we

3:32:063:32:09

cannot say there is is a policy

available to fix this, we are just

3:32:093:32:15

jumping on a band wagon.

Thank you. I appreciate the SNP

3:32:153:32:23

getting this important opposition

day debate and prieshiate given

3:32:233:32:29

being given the opportunity to speak

in it. We know how much of an impact

3:32:293:32:36

it has, we know the chamber how

upsetting, frustrating and deeply

3:32:363:32:42

angry many WASPI Westminster feel.

However, one of the things I want to

3:32:423:32:47

say before asking the Government for

transition payments is we are all

3:32:473:32:50

culpable. One of the thing I found

so interesting listening to all the

3:32:503:32:56

different sides, is if there was an

element of amnesia. Every party in

3:32:563:33:03

the chamber is culpable because of

the WASPI issues and listening to

3:33:033:33:10

others it appears the SNP might be

as well. I don't know that for sure,

3:33:103:33:15

I am not a Scottish MP, but I know

the Tories in the 1995 bill, did

3:33:153:33:22

inform people right from the

beginning about what was happening,

3:33:223:33:27

I think Labour from 1999 on to 2001,

2002, 2003, didn't do the mass

3:33:273:33:33

communication that was necessary

that would have warned these people

3:33:333:33:37

what was come, and hold my hands up

as the a member of the coalition

3:33:373:33:41

Government in 2011, when we changed

the age, I don't think we really got

3:33:413:33:46

enough information out there. The

first thing I would like to say

3:33:463:33:51

despite the sturm and drang I think

we have let WASPI women down, end

3:33:513:33:55

of. The second thing I would like to

move on to, is I do feel that the

3:33:553:34:02

Government should look very

seriously at finding some

3:34:023:34:05

transitional money. Because for a

lots of these women, particularly

3:34:053:34:08

women that a number of colleagues

have made the point so well, that

3:34:083:34:13

were in menial jobs, and artisan

job, when you are getting in your

3:34:133:34:18

early 60s you are not often in the

same physical shape as someone who

3:34:183:34:23

hasn't done a back breaking job for

40 odd year, I would urge the

3:34:233:34:28

Government, they understand, I do

believe the minutesters understands

3:34:283:34:31

the strength of feeling, the

passion, the anger, the exceptional

3:34:313:34:36

frustration that so many WASPI women

feel. I will give way.

3:34:363:34:41

I am grateful for giving way. Does

he agree with me it is totally up

3:34:413:34:46

fair these women are not paid their

pension when ahave a full

3:34:463:34:51

contribution record and instead they

are being made to work beyond a time

3:34:513:34:54

when they are able, or forced to

rely on insecure benefits that are

3:34:543:35:01

too low.

I than the honourable

member for her crib tiong it is an

3:35:013:35:09

important point. Many years of

correction, of a back breaking job

3:35:093:35:13

but I get back to the fact we are

all cup palable. We know that, we

3:35:133:35:17

know that in the chamber,

Conservative, Labour, coalition and

3:35:173:35:22

according to the Conservative and

Labour SNP as well. What I would do,

3:35:223:35:29

I wouldn't advocate because I would

be lying to my constituency, I

3:35:293:35:33

wouldn't advocate we are going to

take the retirement age back to 60.

3:35:333:35:41

I am going to continue. I just

think, I think if people say that to

3:35:413:35:49

their constituent, it won't cast any

slurs, I am going to finish. What I

3:35:493:35:55

will say I would ask the government

really seriously, because of the

3:35:553:35:59

impact this is having, think this is

a shocking impact in some parts of

3:35:593:36:05

the country, I believe the

Government has a duty to find some

3:36:053:36:10

additional money to assist with the

transition period. I think it's the

3:36:103:36:14

right thing do, I think it is the

honourable thing to do and I really

3:36:143:36:18

believe the Government must find

that money. I believe if they will,

3:36:183:36:21

I actually think a lot of WASPI

women, possibly through gritted

3:36:213:36:26

teeth, but I believe a lot of WASPI

women will accept that transition

3:36:263:36:31

money, and move on with this

challenging age change we are

3:36:313:36:35

dealing with. Without that, I

believe the anger will increase the

3:36:353:36:41

sense of justifiable unfairness will

increase and it will leave a real,

3:36:413:36:46

real scar for a heck of a lot of

women born in their #50s who have

3:36:463:36:50

contributed not just to the great's

of our nation, but crumb, all the

3:36:503:36:55

children and the grandchildren and

the families that have made our

3:36:553:36:58

country what it is today. So what I

would urge the minister, I would ask

3:36:583:37:02

him to go the Chancellor and say,

find an element of transition money,

3:37:023:37:08

that at least will pay and allow

some of the the -- the WASPI women

3:37:083:37:15

at least, have to the funds that

will make up for not just looking

3:37:153:37:20

the six years in cases but ending up

or ended up costing so many women so

3:37:203:37:26

much money. I would urge the

minister, find a way, find

3:37:263:37:30

transition money, make a difference,

do it now.

3:37:303:37:35

This is an important cause that

affects thousands of women on the

3:37:353:37:39

Isle of Wight. I have had the

pleasure of meeting the WASPI

3:37:393:37:44

representatives on several occasion,

I thank him for his words on the

3:37:443:37:47

issue and he knows I hold him in

height regard. Think the Government

3:37:473:37:51

has done good work in pensions that

have improved the lives of

3:37:513:37:56

pensioners. He talks about the

importance of fairness. In

3:37:563:38:00

justification of the WASPI women,

they would say that the current

3:38:003:38:04

system is not fair to them, and to

be honest it is difficult to argue

3:38:043:38:09

against that point. I have heard

many stories of hardship from WASPI

3:38:093:38:14

women on the island, many of whom

found out at a late stage in the day

3:38:143:38:20

their pensions would be negatively

affected. These are not spend thrift

3:38:203:38:24

people, they are people who have

raised families or worked hard and

3:38:243:38:28

paid into the system over many years

and it pains me to read storieses of

3:38:283:38:35

hardship from them my concern for

the Government, is that a Pensions

3:38:353:38:40

Bill may force this issue. And I do

believe that on grounds of fairness

3:38:403:38:47

and common-sense, that moving in

some way to rectify this issue now

3:38:473:38:52

would be better than being forced to

do so later in the day. So if there

3:38:523:38:58

were a way of seeking transition

payments, or a mechanism that could

3:38:583:39:03

be found to alleviate some the worst

problems faced by the WASPI women,

3:39:033:39:09

who are an admirable cause in my

opinion, the Government would get my

3:39:093:39:12

full support. I know that the right

honourable gentleman cares about

3:39:123:39:17

this issue very much. I will give

way. Thank you.

Even if the

3:39:173:39:22

likelihood of the Government will

have to change position, would it

3:39:223:39:25

make sense a good Government would

make sure there is financial

3:39:253:39:29

provision being made now for that

eventuality.

I am just really making

3:39:293:39:32

that point myself as well. Clearly

this is voting either way is not

3:39:323:39:37

going to change things today, but I

do hope that Government would

3:39:373:39:41

consider this in the light a

potential Pensions Bill later. Thank

3:39:413:39:45

you.

Mr Speaker. We recently heard from

3:39:453:39:54

Chancellor about how he buckled

under the lobbying pressure of 13

3:39:543:40:00

Scottish Tory colleague, the

pressure applied supposedly made all

3:40:003:40:04

the difference in scrapping the VAT

payments for Scottish police and

3:40:043:40:09

Fire Service, perhaps the half-baked

bakers dozen could have another

3:40:093:40:13

whord in the ear of the Chancellor

and prove they understand the

3:40:133:40:17

situation, and therefore care about

the WASPI women an seek to spring

3:40:173:40:20

justice for them. If no changes are

made but the by the UK Government

3:40:203:40:27

shows the cosh Tories are not

influential or they don't care about

3:40:273:40:31

the plight of the WASPI women. The

member for Aberdeen South spoke as

3:40:313:40:36

if understand this problem but will

follow us through the lobby or is it

3:40:363:40:42

empty rhetoric. Can you imagine, can

you imagine if MPs born in the

3:40:423:40:47

50ings were not made wear of major

changes to their pensions and they

3:40:473:40:52

would not receive them until years

later. When we debated that we would

3:40:523:40:57

this House would be full to the gun,

MPs would be filling every single

3:40:573:41:03

seat and the bits in between. How

quickly does this House find a

3:41:033:41:09

remedy to that problem? That is the

benchmark that Government should be

3:41:093:41:13

judged by, on behalf of the 5700

women of Inverclyde, I want the UK

3:41:133:41:20

Government to know we will keep

bringing the debates to the house.

3:41:203:41:23

We will continue to raise issues in

the press and we will not go away

3:41:233:41:27

until there is is a resolution of

the plight from these pension

3:41:273:41:32

changes. Next week my office will

host a meeting of the WASPI group as

3:41:323:41:37

they maintain they work by

attracting new volunteers and making

3:41:373:41:41

sure they have advice and support.

The WASPI campaign is already raised

3:41:413:41:47

with 100,00 pounds to fund a

campaign, the minister must be aware

3:41:473:41:54

the WASPI campaign is two ill -- so

well funded. The WASPI campaign has

3:41:543:42:03

committed themselves. This issue is

a signal that they need to begin a

3:42:033:42:08

dialogue with the WASPI women and

they have to start it now. They are

3:42:083:42:12

being reasonable in asking for this

opportunity. There may be many small

3:42:123:42:16

steps along way to achieving a

solution, the UK Government should

3:42:163:42:20

see the sense and ta tick first step

willingly rather than being dragged

3:42:203:42:23

along by the force of public

pressure, finally, it is not too

3:42:233:42:28

late for this Government to do the

decent thing and make amend for in

3:42:283:42:34

ill advised damaging policy.

It is is a great honour to speak in

3:42:343:42:43

this debate on this important issue

on behalf of the many WASPI women of

3:42:433:42:47

Chelmsford who have been to visit

me. Especially the lovely Cheryl

3:42:473:42:53

Lucas who speaks calm and compassion

and I have deep respect for them,

3:42:533:42:58

and for the situation they find

themselves in, many of the women

3:42:583:43:01

have worked for many year, they have

pad their tax, national insurance

3:43:013:43:05

and they have told me how they

planned on the expectation they

3:43:053:43:09

would retire on a certain date, and

that date then changed. Some of them

3:43:093:43:23

retired early in the anticipation

that those knew, that...

She is

3:43:233:43:31

putting the case very well. Isn't

that why it is such an insult to

3:43:313:43:36

simply suggest to these people, to

hold older women they can get an

3:43:363:43:41

apprenticeship and things will be be

fine.

Let me carry on with my point.

3:43:413:43:45

I would love to help the WASPI women

of my constituency who find

3:43:453:43:50

themselveses in this situation, but

I also look at the statistics and I

3:43:503:43:56

remember looking a few years ago at

life expectancy, my mother is 30

3:43:563:44:02

years older, my daughter is 30 years

younger. 6% of my mother's age group

3:44:023:44:09

will live to 100.

My age group it is

16%. In my daughter's age group it

3:44:093:44:15

is 26%. We are living longer and we

need to work longer, and that is why

3:44:153:44:20

I believe that successive

Governments, Labour and

3:44:203:44:23

Conservative, have been right to

take measures to change the pension

3:44:233:44:26

age. But I have also thought what

more could we do to help the women

3:44:263:44:32

affected in this way, because if we

are to give them additional

3:44:323:44:37

financial benefit, or additional

taxation, what then do I say to the

3:44:373:44:40

women like myself, who were born in

the 60s. Why should a woman who is

3:44:403:44:46

born in 1959 fete an additional

benefit but not the woman born in

3:44:463:44:49

1960? What then do I say to the men,

because I championed equality all my

3:44:493:44:54

life, when the women are getting an

additional benefit but the men

3:44:543:44:57

aren't. What do I say to my

daughter's generation who are

3:44:573:45:02

struggling, where they have student

debt, struggling to get on the

3:45:023:45:06

housing ladder, they can say they

may never have anything like the

3:45:063:45:10

work based pensions we have had.

3:45:103:45:15

I know that the jobs the women had

been doing in the past, they are

3:45:153:45:19

often not jobs they continue to want

to be able to do into their 60s and

3:45:193:45:22

it may not suit them. That is why I

think it is so important that we

3:45:223:45:28

champion opportunities for some of

our older workers, for people in

3:45:283:45:31

their 50s, like myself, but also in

their 60s. And that we go out and

3:45:313:45:37

help employers to say these women

are fantastic, and our people that

3:45:373:45:41

really add value. For those that

genuinely have problems, we need to

3:45:413:45:44

be faster to get them support. I was

contacted by a WASPI woman this week

3:45:443:45:50

who has cancer and needs support. We

have to be faster in supporting

3:45:503:45:56

them. I understand why the

Government cannot write a blank

3:45:563:45:59

cheque. But let's find some support

for them.

I am grateful, and it is a

3:45:593:46:05

pleasure to follow the Honourable

Member for Chelmsford. The WASPI

3:46:053:46:09

situation is a stain on the this

country. Women, who but for the

3:46:093:46:14

decisions made by others would have

never have thought of turning to

3:46:143:46:18

politics, would never have thought

to organise, to organise, shout and

3:46:183:46:24

scream, people like Ali Wallace who

are organising and seeking justice

3:46:243:46:30

for those women. There are 6000

women in my constituency and they

3:46:303:46:35

are being organised and assisted to

follow the four stage process, not

3:46:353:46:39

to seek their pension, but to seek a

review of the maladministration of

3:46:393:46:44

how the information was not given to

them. They meet in my constituency

3:46:443:46:51

office to plan how to identify the

other women in the area. I must take

3:46:513:46:54

this moment to give tribute to

George Kerrigan, my predecessor, who

3:46:543:46:58

aided and assisted the women so

eloquently. I must point out that

3:46:583:47:04

the aim of the WASPI campaign is not

about the equalisation of pension

3:47:043:47:09

ages. It is about a transitional

state pension arrangements for those

3:47:093:47:13

women born in the 1950s. They

recognise the longevity of our

3:47:133:47:18

civilisation today. But it is about

the transitional provisions. The

3:47:183:47:26

work and pensions select committee,

in March 2016, concluded it has been

3:47:263:47:34

too little, too late, for many

women, especially given the increase

3:47:343:47:37

in the state pension age. It has

been accelerated at a relatively

3:47:373:47:40

short notice. Many thousands of

women, justifiably, feel aggrieved.

3:47:403:47:48

Among the 6000 women affected in

East Lothian, those aged between 60

3:47:483:47:52

and 62 will see their household

incomes fall and the income poverty

3:47:523:47:56

increased because of these changes.

Women that were born in the 50s have

3:47:563:48:00

paid so much into our system and

they deserve to be treated with the

3:48:003:48:03

dignity and respect. Dignity and

respect that should be extended to

3:48:033:48:09

all those nearing or receiving state

pension. Perhaps the opportunity

3:48:093:48:13

should be taken to write to the

women and point out the situation to

3:48:133:48:17

them? If the Government are unable

to offer any financial compensation,

3:48:173:48:21

at the very least point out the

maladministration steps that they

3:48:213:48:26

could potentially take so that the

Government could investigate these.

3:48:263:48:31

We stand up in this place for those

people that struggle to have a

3:48:313:48:34

voice. The WASPI women do not

struggle to have a voice, but they

3:48:343:48:38

seem to struggle for a government to

listen to them. We must honour those

3:48:383:48:43

people who have contributed so much

to our society, listen to what they

3:48:433:48:46

are asking for and give them the

respect that they so rightly

3:48:463:48:49

deserves.

3:48:493:48:51

Can I say that I welcome this

debate, and I would have welcomed

3:48:543:49:01

the opportunity to put far more

points on record, have the leader of

3:49:013:49:05

the SNP not taken almost 40 minutes

to open the remarks. This is the

3:49:053:49:11

first debate in this chamber...

Welcome I think SNP members may want

3:49:113:49:15

to hear what I am saying. This is

the first debate in this chamber

3:49:153:49:19

where I have been able to articulate

the views of WASPI women in Moray. I

3:49:193:49:25

would have appreciated more time

than we have. The debate was made

3:49:253:49:34

for the Honourable Member for

Easington, less than a month that I

3:49:343:49:38

had been elected to this space. I

haven't made a maiden speech and

3:49:383:49:41

there was a restrictive time-limit.

I didn't contributed... If the

3:49:413:49:45

member would like to intervene, I

will let him go. Having previously

3:49:453:49:52

met with WASPI women come I told

them I would not contribute to that

3:49:523:49:56

debate and they understood. The SNP

put out a press release criticising

3:49:563:49:59

me for that. The honourable lady for

Paisley said Douglas Ross must do

3:49:593:50:03

the right thing for these women,

despite these women believing that I

3:50:033:50:06

was doing the right thing for them.

The SNP press release led to

3:50:063:50:12

comments on social media that called

me an effing snake, a twerp, and a

3:50:123:50:22

disgrace to authority. -- to

humanity. The SNP have done a lot on

3:50:223:50:29

this issue. But I agree with the

Honourable Member for East Antrim,

3:50:293:50:33

saying that despite the words in

this motion, the words from the SNP

3:50:333:50:38

have not encouraged more to support

them. Madam Deputy Speaker, I

3:50:383:50:41

support the 6400 women in Moray

affected by the issue. They all

3:50:413:50:49

agree about the need to equalise

state pension age, but the biggest

3:50:493:50:52

issue for them and me was the lack

of communication, from governments

3:50:523:50:56

of all parties. It is because of

that lack of communication that I

3:50:563:50:59

signed the pledge before the

election and I support the pledge

3:50:593:51:02

just now. The very valid point by my

honourable friend for East

3:51:023:51:09

Worthington, East Worthing, said a

53% of women rely on the state

3:51:093:51:13

pension, compared to a far smaller

percentage of men.

If I could offer

3:51:133:51:21

my honourable friend some

refuelling, I think the SNP would

3:51:213:51:24

benefit from this meant the very

wise words. Just because he and I

3:51:243:51:28

are of different parties, does not

mean that our commitment to the

3:51:283:51:31

cause is no less. Does he agree with

me that one suggestion that would

3:51:313:51:34

show willing, which came up in the

Budget, for the WASPI women to be

3:51:343:51:45

given bus passes, that would help

them in some way and show that there

3:51:453:51:48

is a problem that needs to be

addressed?

I agree with much of what

3:51:483:51:51

he said, and with what he said in

previous debates on this issue. I

3:51:513:51:56

would like to say that there is more

to be done, there is a lot we can

3:51:563:51:59

discuss, there is a lot we can

debate. I put myself forward as a

3:51:593:52:02

member for the all-party group. I go

back to the point that I made that I

3:52:023:52:06

signed a pledge before the election

and members opposite have criticised

3:52:063:52:09

me every day since I was elected for

not honouring the pledge. In

3:52:093:52:13

conclusion, I just want to go back

to that earlier remark by the SNP.

3:52:133:52:26

Again, the right Honourable Member

for East Antrim. You can convince

3:52:263:52:28

people, not by shouting down every

time, but by trying to get them to

3:52:283:52:31

go along with you. A constituent

contacted me after the last efforts

3:52:313:52:33

by the SNP, and she said, I just

wanted to say that I am disappointed

3:52:333:52:37

at the media response to your

support of WASPI in Moray. I do hope

3:52:373:52:42

that your support continues and we

don't become victims in the

3:52:423:52:44

backlash. I believe WASPI women are

already victims, victims of

3:52:443:52:50

decisions in this Parliament from

both sides. Because they are already

3:52:503:52:55

victims, again, I will say in the

calmest possible way to the SNP,

3:52:553:52:59

despite their actions in this

debate, I do believe the wording of

3:52:593:53:03

the motion is actually sensible. If

the house divides tonight, I will be

3:53:033:53:08

joining them to support the motion.

It is a pleasure to follow the

3:53:083:53:19

Honourable Member. What I intend to

do is finish the house with just a

3:53:193:53:23

few examples of the 5500 women in my

constituency who have seen their

3:53:233:53:32

pension cut with short notice.

Perhaps they might listen to our

3:53:323:53:36

constituents and taxpayers? My first

constituent would like to remain on

3:53:363:53:41

this. She worked for 44 years and

has never been out of work. By the

3:53:413:53:45

end of 2014, she was exhausted and

decided to retire. She knew she was

3:53:453:53:49

not yet ready to receive her

increased retirement age of 62, but

3:53:493:53:56

she and her husband calculated their

finances and thought that she showed

3:53:563:54:00

and could retire at that time. She

handed in her three-month notice. It

3:54:003:54:04

was not until a financial adviser

visited her home that she found out

3:54:043:54:08

she could not retire until she was

65. By this time, someone else had

3:54:083:54:12

been offered her job and she had to

make do them all down to the lack of

3:54:123:54:16

notice. Next, Christine Rennie from

Airdrie, all of her working life she

3:54:163:54:21

expected to retire at 60. To retire

in 2015. She was given no notice

3:54:213:54:26

that it was to be extended to 2021.

She has Crohn's disease, managed by

3:54:263:54:32

injection into her stomach. It

reacts to cold weather and part of

3:54:323:54:36

her job as a classroom assistant is

playground duty. It does not take me

3:54:363:54:40

to explain the issues at stake. Like

so many other women of this era she

3:54:403:54:45

gave up work to bring up her family

and returned to part-time work with

3:54:453:54:49

no access to a private pension. She

will rely financially on her state

3:54:493:54:53

pension to retire and she needs it

now. Finally, Alan Connolly from

3:54:533:54:58

Airdrie was due to retire aged 60,

but will now have to wait until

3:54:583:55:02

2020, when she turns 66. It

highlights the communication problem

3:55:023:55:07

once again. She says she only found

out about the pension age rise with

3:55:073:55:14

the GMB magazine. If she had been

given proper notice, she would have

3:55:143:55:19

been able to find another job. The

lack of notice makes it practically

3:55:193:55:23

impossible for her to do anything

other than continuing in her

3:55:233:55:25

demanding role. The few cases I have

highlighted will not even be the

3:55:253:55:30

worst examples in Airdrie and

Shotts, never mind the worst

3:55:303:55:32

examples in the rest of the country.

They are not the worst we have heard

3:55:323:55:35

today. They are a random example of

dozens who have contacted me, and no

3:55:353:55:40

doubt will have contacted others.

Every single one of those women have

3:55:403:55:44

had their lives turned upside down

from the incompetence and

3:55:443:55:48

intransigence of successive UK

governments. In conclusion, we all

3:55:483:55:52

have ladies in our constituencies in

the 1950s that have been impacted by

3:55:523:55:56

changes to the state pension age.

What will separate us later are

3:55:563:56:02

those that will recognise, respect

and represent these ladies from

3:56:023:56:04

those that will choose to try to

ignore them once again. I know where

3:56:043:56:08

I will be and that will be in the

lobby, back to my WASPI women.

It is

3:56:083:56:16

a pleasure to follow members and to

speak in this debate. Because time

3:56:163:56:20

is short I am going to focus on a

few key issues. I cannot support the

3:56:203:56:26

motion put before the house today,

for a few critical reasons. The

3:56:263:56:31

first is that I think the SNP have

not clarified their own domestic

3:56:313:56:35

position adequately to this house.

We have heard that there have been

3:56:353:56:42

many debates. The minister himself

has clarified that there are powers

3:56:423:56:46

in the Scotland act passed by this

house. I do ask him to consider why

3:56:463:56:50

they have not addressed that

themselves in Scotland. I wonder if

3:56:503:56:59

it is because they are facing

declining popularity in the people

3:56:593:57:01

of Scotland, as reflected by seeing

more colleagues on our side, on

3:57:013:57:08

these benches. We have all met WASPI

women in our constituencies. I have

3:57:083:57:13

spoken to women who have been

affected by this. I am very aware

3:57:133:57:18

that women have been working since

they were 14 or 15, working very

3:57:183:57:22

hard. These are ladies that have

borne the brunt of caring

3:57:223:57:26

responsibilities often. They brought

up families. They have definitely

3:57:263:57:29

felt that sense of injustice. At the

same time, there have been claims

3:57:293:57:33

made by members opposite... I will

take one intervention.

Thank you for

3:57:333:57:39

giving way. Surely this is about

justice, it is about doing the right

3:57:393:57:45

thing for WASPI women and it is

about joining us on these benches.

3:57:453:57:48

The 31 conservatives that claim,

rightly so, to be supporting the

3:57:483:57:56

WASPI women, to join us and have

some justice and some proper

3:57:563:58:00

transitional arrangements.

I thank

him for his intervention, but the

3:58:003:58:03

basis of the claim on this debate on

the motion is that nothing has been

3:58:033:58:06

done. That is simply not the case.

There has been more than £1 billion

3:58:063:58:11

already allocated by this Government

to help women. We have heard this

3:58:113:58:15

morning from the first secretary

that the pension age will be

3:58:153:58:18

equalised by next year. So, while I

accept that there are women that

3:58:183:58:22

feel that sense of injustice, this

is not the way to deal with that.

3:58:223:58:26

Let's instead look at what this

Government has done to improve the

3:58:263:58:30

lives of older people up and down

this country, including in Scotland.

3:58:303:58:34

The investment in the NHS, we see

people receiving better health care,

3:58:343:58:38

enabling them to lead fuller, active

lives. That means participating in

3:58:383:58:42

the workforce for longer. I was very

surprised to hear that it might be

3:58:423:58:48

an insult for a woman aged 65 to be

offered an apprenticeship. I know

3:58:483:58:53

women that are 65 who find that a

great opportunity. Why write off

3:58:533:58:59

women just because they are 65? It

doesn't apply to all women. Nobody

3:58:593:59:04

is saying it does. What we are

saying is that when there is

3:59:043:59:08

research that shows when women have

taken up those opportunities at the

3:59:083:59:14

age of 65, they report increased

satisfaction. We all know that

3:59:143:59:19

participating in the workforce is

one of the best ways to increase

3:59:193:59:23

mental health and a whole range of

other outcomes. I do reject the

3:59:233:59:28

suggestion it is insulting. On this

side of the house, we like to think

3:59:283:59:31

about how we create more

opportunities for our people to

3:59:313:59:36

participate and live fuller lives at

all stages of their life. And I

3:59:363:59:40

think it is incumbent on members

across this house to recognise that

3:59:403:59:43

and to support it. I think we need

to look at some of the statistics

3:59:433:59:49

that have been claimed by members on

the opposite side. I don't recognise

3:59:493:59:52

some of the statistics from the

briefings I have read about the

3:59:523:59:56

maladministration and the Minister

has confirmed that. I think we need

3:59:563:59:59

to be honest about the communication

programme and the fact that women

3:59:594:00:03

have been able to plan for their

retirement.

4:00:034:00:07

I would make the very clear point

there has been no suggestion this is

4:00:074:00:11

the crux of my argument, there is no

suggestion here that this proposal

4:00:114:00:15

is costed. I dispute the figure they

have put forward. I need to finish.

4:00:154:00:23

The independent research shows that,

independent research...

Point of

4:00:234:00:29

order.

This is important, because it has

4:00:294:00:33

been pointed out early in this

debate the report was published by

4:00:334:00:37

the SNP last year, fully costed so

the honourable lady has made either

4:00:374:00:42

by say it hasn't been costed has

been exactly costed and she should

4:00:424:00:47

recognise that.

This is not a point

of order, it is a point of debate

4:00:474:00:52

and it reduces the time for other

people to speak.

4:00:524:00:56

Thank you. There has been research

that suggests its might cost 36

4:00:564:01:03

billion to implement these

proposals. When I speak to WASPI

4:01:034:01:07

women in Redditch. Let us not spend

money helping your children and

4:01:074:01:11

grandchildren...

Order, order.

Christine Jardine.

4:01:114:01:17

Thank you. It strikes me some of us

in this House might do well to

4:01:174:01:23

remember that when we retire, it

might be a decision made the

4:01:234:01:28

electorate, an electorate that have

every right to expect to know when

4:01:284:01:31

they can retire and they would, were

it not nor the way in which this

4:01:314:01:36

House passed legislation in 1995 and

2011, which changed the state

4:01:364:01:39

pension age for women born in the

'50s and failed to commune Kay Kate

4:01:394:01:44

it effectively. Women like my

constituent who came to me to tell

4:01:444:01:47

me that although she had planned for

a a retirement for almost 30 years

4:01:474:01:52

she found herself having to do two

part-time job just to remain

4:01:524:01:56

solvent. A woman who had worked all

her life. Paid National Insurance,

4:01:564:02:02

saved for her retirement and now

works as a cleaner and suffers as a

4:02:024:02:06

result from arthritis, it makes her

life today very different where the

4:02:064:02:10

one he is an tips pated that she

finds herself in this situation. It

4:02:104:02:14

is not her fault but the

mismanagement of the Government.

4:02:144:02:18

This woman was offered voluntary

redundancy a couple of years before

4:02:184:02:23

her anticipated retirement age. She

calculated she could use it to see

4:02:234:02:28

her through as well as her savings.

Then she discovered have had the

4:02:284:02:35

best part of a decade to wait now

she has used up that money, her

4:02:354:02:40

savings have been witled away and

she has those two jobs and she is

4:02:404:02:43

not alone in this. 6,000 women in my

constituency of Edinburgh West alone

4:02:434:02:49

have been affected. Almost 3 million

women across the country are drawn

4:02:494:02:55

into this unjust pension trap. Our

constituents, our friends in some

4:02:554:03:00

cases and members of our family.

Pushed into hardship, even poverty

4:03:004:03:04

after a lifetime Orr of work. What

is most galling is the women who

4:03:044:03:09

come to me like so many others have

no quibble with the need to change

4:03:094:03:13

the pension age to equalise it with

men. It was as has been said already

4:03:134:03:19

how it was done that is the issue.

What has been created as a situation

4:03:194:03:25

where women born in the '50s who for

the most part worked all their a

4:03:254:03:29

dull live, paid that insurance and

tax planned for the retirement paid

4:03:294:03:35

for our education and our National

Health Service are now asked to

4:03:354:03:38

wait. During the general election,

an elderly member of the audience,

4:03:384:03:43

thank you, said to me they felt they

were being punished by the

4:03:434:03:48

Conservative Government for growing

old. It is difficult today not to

4:03:484:03:51

agree with them. One thing in this

debate which is disappointed me is

4:03:514:03:56

political point scoring from one

side of the House to the other. I

4:03:564:04:00

think perhaps we should... I think

perhaps is more important we all

4:04:004:04:05

rise above it, and work do something

to diverse this monstrous injustice

4:04:054:04:10

or the electorate may well offer us

all early retirement.

4:04:104:04:15

Thank you.

I would like to congratulate the SNP

4:04:154:04:21

on choosing this topic for their

opposition day. It is one which I

4:04:214:04:26

along with many other members too

many to pension but I particularly

4:04:264:04:30

want to member the mention for east

WTOing for the sterling work he has

4:04:304:04:35

done, the member for Paisley and

Renfrewshire South, Ogmore in

4:04:354:04:39

Swansea East who have raised this

issue, time and time again, and have

4:04:394:04:45

worked hard to encourage members

from all sides of the House to speak

4:04:454:04:50

in the backbench debate. I agree we

the member for Moray, that I think

4:04:504:04:57

the motion has been carefully

crafted, to allow anyone to support

4:04:574:05:01

it. Conservatives, members of the

Government party and members of the

4:05:014:05:05

opposition. So I urge them to do so.

If it isn't resolved. If the

4:05:054:05:11

Government don't take the

opportunity I want to remind them we

4:05:114:05:18

will have a big debate in December

and I encourage all members to come

4:05:184:05:22

along, don't think you will get off

the hook f this new session of

4:05:224:05:27

Parliament has taught us anything,

it that the party opposite have been

4:05:274:05:30

on more than one occasion prepared

to cover up they eyes and ears and

4:05:304:05:36

pretend its suffering isn't

happening, on Universal Credit, ESA,

4:05:364:05:40

on PIP on food banks and now on

WASPI. So while I have the intent,

4:05:404:05:45

why I have their attention for a

very brief period I want to tell

4:05:454:05:49

them some of the reason, I will give

way.

I thank him for giving way.

4:05:494:05:55

Would he agree with me that 5.5

women in Hartlepool have been

4:05:554:06:00

victimised by the DWP and the

consequences are devastating.

4:06:004:06:05

Robbing them of happy retirement

they deserve and instead forcing

4:06:054:06:10

them into food banks and a

dysfunctional benefit system.

4:06:104:06:13

Absolutely. Absolutely. It is

something that affected every

4:06:134:06:17

member. Weapon often bring up things

that only affect the north, Wales...

4:06:174:06:25

I really shouldn't because of the

time, I do apologise.

4:06:254:06:32

The Deputy Speaker is going to

admonish me. So over the last few

4:06:324:06:41

months, I have tabled EDN63. It has

been signed by 197 members of this

4:06:414:06:48

House. There was a petition by over

100,000 people, 107,000 I

4:06:484:06:55

understand, that has led to the

granting of the debate next week, if

4:06:554:06:58

that is necessary, if the minister

is not going to concede the point

4:06:584:07:02

tonight. Can I remind the minister

it has been signed by members for

4:07:024:07:08

every party, from every nation and

every region in the UK. Daily I

4:07:084:07:14

receive completely heartbreaking

letters and e-mails, many who have

4:07:144:07:21

worked from 16 and paid National

Insurance contributions and deal

4:07:214:07:28

they signed with the Government has

been ripped up there. There a

4:07:284:07:32

contract and moral obligation on

Government I believe. It has created

4:07:324:07:36

an unnecessary situation, a

generation of women many of whom are

4:07:364:07:39

having to rely on food banks,

selling their homes, being forced to

4:07:394:07:46

rely on the benefits system. Madam

Deputy Speaker it is degrading

4:07:464:07:50

unfair and unnecessary. These women

have been failed by consecutive

4:07:504:07:55

Governments no doubt. Failings which

have led many women, who I have

4:07:554:07:59

known for year, because live in the

constituency I represent, into

4:07:594:08:03

poverty and forced to rely on food

banks and support from friends and

4:08:034:08:07

relatives. I am convinced about the

sincerity of their campaign and many

4:08:074:08:14

knew nothing about this because of

the lack of notification. I urge the

4:08:144:08:18

Government immediately to

acknowledge their error, provide all

4:08:184:08:21

of those affected with some level of

compensation, and provide those

4:08:214:08:26

worst affected, those who have been

waiting six years or longer than

4:08:264:08:30

they planned to receive their

pension with some support through a

4:08:304:08:34

bridging pension. I would like to

thank the WASPI women for their

4:08:344:08:38

support, in racing this issue.

First of all, can just say that I

4:08:384:08:46

feel many of the WASPI women

watching this, today, may feel

4:08:464:08:51

disappointed that instead of having

a debate where we could have tried

4:08:514:08:55

to build some consensus, we have had

finger pointing, we have had pont

4:08:554:09:04

use Pilate strike, hand washing and

rancour, I think it is important

4:09:044:09:08

that for many of those and certainly

for the one its have spoken to, this

4:09:084:09:12

is not a party political issue, this

is is a personal issue, one which

4:09:124:09:18

has affected their day-to-day lives

and what they want to see the kind

4:09:184:09:23

of collective attention from

Parliament. I do make the exception

4:09:234:09:26

because I think the member from

Eastbourne was very honest in the

4:09:264:09:31

way in which he accepted that all

administrations played a part in the

4:09:314:09:37

situation we have. Have. We are

going to give support to this motion

4:09:374:09:41

tonight, for a number of reasons.

And the first reason is this. That

4:09:414:09:46

it is quite clear even from the

Government's success, Government's

4:09:464:09:51

own admission and from the

Department of Pension, Work and

4:09:514:09:57

Pensions own actions that not

adequate notice was given to people,

4:09:574:10:01

the Pensions Commission said for

such a big change, there should be

4:10:014:10:06

15 years advance warning. Some

people had less than five year, the

4:10:064:10:13

Department for Work and Pensions...

4,000 women have an issue with their

4:10:134:10:21

state pension going up but weren't

given enough notice. Isn't that

4:10:214:10:27

question about how Government

communicates with people.

He makes

4:10:274:10:36

an important point. The Department

for Work and Pensions in its own

4:10:364:10:39

research found that especially in

the lower income groups two thirds

4:10:394:10:43

of which were not aware of the

changes, and of course, the very

4:10:434:10:47

fact that the practice was changed,

to writing out individually after

4:10:474:10:54

2011, as an indication the

Department for Work and Pensions --

4:10:544:11:02

that is the first reason, the second

reason is that these changes have

4:11:024:11:06

hurt those people who are in the

lower income brackets, and again, if

4:11:064:11:13

we look at the hardship that has

been caused, the research shows that

4:11:134:11:18

people who are on lower income, have

had five times the impact on their

4:11:184:11:27

income than people on hiring income,

there are is an issue not only of

4:11:274:11:33

communication here but of fareness,

which has to be dealt with. Poverty

4:11:334:11:39

among 62, 64-year-olds has gone up

by 6.2% as a result of the impact of

4:11:394:11:46

the changes to date. The third

reason we support this motion and

4:11:464:11:52

though it has been said there is not

specific. Think it probably at this

4:11:524:11:56

stage, it is right it is not

specific, because the, there are a

4:11:564:12:03

range of remedies, which could be be

introduced to deal with this. I

4:12:034:12:06

accept that not all of those

remedies and indeed for some people

4:12:064:12:11

none of those remedies is going to

please them, but given, I want to be

4:12:114:12:18

responsible. I ups we can't simply

rewrite pensioned history and say

4:12:184:12:24

let us undo all that has been done.

It is too costly, there are a range

4:12:244:12:28

of issues and even within the

financial constraints that the

4:12:284:12:32

Government faces at present, this

motion gives the opportunity to come

4:12:324:12:38

back, with idea, they can be be

knocked down, they can be debated.

4:12:384:12:42

We can see what impact they have.

See if they target the people most

4:12:424:12:46

badly hit. At least let us have some

recognition there is a problem

4:12:464:12:55

caused by bad communication, that

hits certain people coming to the

4:12:554:12:58

end of their working lives and let

us few and they a way of the dealing

4:12:584:13:02

with it.

And let us find a way of dealing

4:13:024:13:07

with it.

I have no wish to be

disrespectful to anybody in this

4:13:074:13:11

House. Some of the comments have

heard from this side have been

4:13:114:13:16

unmitigated piles of mince. The

injustice has been visited on women

4:13:164:13:22

born in the '50s has been well

documented and is widely accepted by

4:13:224:13:27

most people, except by the

Conservatives on the other side of

4:13:274:13:31

this House, who continue to either

tell these women they can seek

4:13:314:13:34

apprenticeships and we heard that

again today, justified by the

4:13:344:13:39

honourable lady opposite who isn't

in the slightest bit embarrassed by

4:13:394:13:44

her comments and bus pass, drawing

down early bus pass, you couldn't

4:13:444:13:47

make it up. If you a WASPI woman and

suffering hardship, right now, don't

4:13:474:13:52

boarry about it because do o you

know what you will live longer a you

4:13:524:13:57

might enget a telegraph from the

Queen. Don't worry if you are short

4:13:574:14:03

of monetary policy, you can't pate

pay the rent f you hang on long

4:14:034:14:08

enough the Queen might send you a

quay card.

4:14:084:14:13

Nobody doubts that people are living

longer. That is not the issue at

4:14:134:14:20

hand. The issue at hand is the

poverty women are living in because

4:14:204:14:26

this Government did not give them

sufficient notice to make

4:14:264:14:28

alternative plans. That is what this

debate is about. Don't come to this

4:14:284:14:34

chamber and talk about

apprenticeships, and don't talk

4:14:344:14:36

about how we are all living longer.

That has nothing to do with what

4:14:364:14:40

this debate is about today. To add

insult to injury, new FOIA figures

4:14:404:14:46

reveal that the DWP has received

thousands of complaints relating to

4:14:464:14:51

the WASPI campaign, but only six

investigations have been seen

4:14:514:14:55

through to completion. Despite this

so-called dedicated complaints team,

4:14:554:14:59

thousands of women have been let

down, robbed of their pension, with

4:14:594:15:02

questions unanswered. What about the

Prime Minister's voucher vow to

4:15:024:15:11

tackle burning injustice? I am still

waiting for that. Where are the Tory

4:15:114:15:18

MPs from Scotland, there was that

pledged support to the WASPI women

4:15:184:15:22

and who will today stand up and give

those WASPI women tea and sympathy

4:15:224:15:28

and then abstain in that vote? You

are a disgrace! Hang your head in

4:15:284:15:33

shame! It is time this burning

injustice was addressed. It is time

4:15:334:15:37

for the Government to stop throwing

these women a deaf ear. Take off

4:15:374:15:45

your brass neck and do the right

thing. It is time to get WASPI women

4:15:454:15:50

the justice they deserve.

Thank you

very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I

4:15:504:15:54

thought I had never heard the likes

of it, but I have. The idea that a

4:15:544:15:58

solution, as members have said, that

you would draw down your bus pass,

4:15:584:16:01

or somehow it is not offensive, I

look at the Honourable Member, it is

4:16:014:16:05

not offensive to offer a woman at 65

an apprenticeship is completely out

4:16:054:16:14

of touch with this nation. I am

offended on behalf of those women. I

4:16:144:16:16

have to say that I want to challenge

the premise that everybody is living

4:16:164:16:20

longer. I want to ask, are the

poorest in this nation living

4:16:204:16:24

longer? I also challenge that just

because you live longer you should

4:16:244:16:28

work longer, not actually live

longer after your working life. 5000

4:16:284:16:34

women in my constituency are

affected by this pension increase.

4:16:344:16:40

The woeful, inadequate note they

received for that change. I met

4:16:404:16:44

those women during the general

election, as did other members, and

4:16:444:16:46

they made a massive impression on

me. 190 members in this house have

4:16:464:16:51

said they would support the WASPI

women. I hope this was not just an

4:16:514:16:57

election gimmick. I look to the

Scottish Conservatives. Anybody that

4:16:574:17:00

supported them now has to keep their

contract with those women indeed,

4:17:004:17:03

not just words. WICB whip has just

done the rounds on the Tories, I

4:17:034:17:11

hope that is not putting pressure on

them. My own mother, born in 1953,

4:17:114:17:16

she started work at 13, with 447

years and thought she would get her

4:17:164:17:20

pension at age 60. She is actually

getting it aged 65 and two. To this

4:17:204:17:27

day, she has not received any

notification from the Department for

4:17:274:17:32

Work and Pensions, along with

thousands of other women. I can

4:17:324:17:34

guarantee you this, if the women

polled the state any money, if there

4:17:344:17:39

was any unpaid tax from those women,

any bill they had not paid, the

4:17:394:17:43

Government would be on their backs.

They would be tenacious in the

4:17:434:17:47

recovery of that debt and the

communication would be thick and

4:17:474:17:50

fast. To witness the disappointment

in those women is heartbreaking.

4:17:504:17:54

Women that could not have worked any

harder all of their life being made

4:17:544:18:00

dependent at an older age. How

degrading is that? The exponential

4:18:004:18:03

increase in claimants are telling.

In the Universal Credit debate, I

4:18:034:18:12

heard argue it's about how the

system teaches lessons with monthly

4:18:124:18:16

payments, an argument that I with --

reject. The Government has

4:18:164:18:25

absolutely failed. For these women

that have not had adequate time to

4:18:254:18:29

prepare, he did not have adequate

correspondence from the DWP, at no

4:18:294:18:35

fault at all, the right thing is to

compensate them and have a bridging

4:18:354:18:39

pension. The 1950s women will not

give up, they will not go away and

4:18:394:18:42

they will not forgive this

government if their demands are not

4:18:424:18:45

met. They don't need apprenticeships

or platitudes, but pension justice

4:18:454:18:49

now. Let's have a vote and see who's

side are these people are really on.

4:18:494:18:54

Thank you for letting me in. I

arrived in June of this year,

4:18:544:19:01

November 21. The state pension age,

I was grateful for the many calls on

4:19:014:19:07

the side of the house for speaking

up for women in the area and across

4:19:074:19:13

the country. I was even more

grateful for the amount of WASPI

4:19:134:19:16

women that turned up that day in

Westminster Hall and saw the people

4:19:164:19:19

that did speak. Sadly, nobody from

the other side turned up and talked

4:19:194:19:24

properly on the debate, apart from

with interventions. Thanks for the

4:19:244:19:29

short time I've got. Even Big Ben

suffers from old age. One day, it

4:19:294:19:39

will be their turn to retire. As we

look back, will we wonder, if only I

4:19:394:19:45

had listened? If only I had cared?

If only I could turn back time? If

4:19:454:19:50

you cannot listen to me, listen to

the WASPI women. You have all had

4:19:504:19:58

plenty of letters, e-mails, Twitter,

Facebook, your own constituents,

4:19:584:20:01

your own voters, the people that

send you here, listen and speak up

4:20:014:20:11

for them. I am committed to fighting

for a better deal for the WASPI

4:20:114:20:14

women, not just in Coatbridge,

Christ and an Bellshill, but across

4:20:144:20:19

the whole of the UK. It is time for

the WASPI women.

I can start by

4:20:194:20:32

saying that I honestly don't think

Scotland has ever been talked about

4:20:324:20:34

as much in this chamber is this

debate. But I think it is worth

4:20:344:20:38

reminding everybody that this is a

UK wide problem, created by

4:20:384:20:43

consecutive UK governments. I know

that the job of summing up is to sum

4:20:434:20:48

up the debate, but I wanted to find

their way of doing it without

4:20:484:20:52

swearing, if I am really honest. I

just want to start with the Scottish

4:20:524:20:57

Conservatives, in the first

instance. My Honourable Member said

4:20:574:21:02

they had a brass neck. I have to

say, I am happy to supply the

4:21:024:21:16

Brasso. How shiny it is, the amount

of rubbish spoken by those members

4:21:164:21:18

is appalling. I want to apologise if

any of my comments in that press

4:21:184:21:27

release, he feels, drew unjust

criticism to him. However, my

4:21:274:21:31

criticism is a legitimate one. He

expresses annoyance at not being

4:21:314:21:36

listened to. Well, this is the 12th

time that we have had to debate this

4:21:364:21:40

since I have been elected. I tell

you, if there is any disrespect

4:21:404:21:44

being shown, it is from the

Conservatives who have refused to

4:21:444:21:48

listen, time and time again.

I am

grateful to the honourable lady for

4:21:484:21:54

giving way. She listened to my

speech in which I said it wasn't

4:21:544:21:58

just myself criticising the attitude

of the SNP, it was WASPI women in

4:21:584:22:03

Moray, writing to me concerned about

the attitudes of members of these

4:22:034:22:05

benches, which turns this into an

issue not to try to get support from

4:22:054:22:09

across the aisles, but simpler to

score political points. That is not

4:22:094:22:12

going to achieve the right results

for the WASPI women.

Right, I'm

4:22:124:22:18

going to go over a view of the

points again, just to get this

4:22:184:22:21

across. 1995, the government not go

did not write to anybody to let them

4:22:214:22:25

know there are going to have an

extra 15 or ten years added onto

4:22:254:22:29

their pension. Hold on, I'm getting

there. Then the government says they

4:22:294:22:38

are going to make a timetable much

quicker, bearing in mind no letters

4:22:384:22:44

were sent out until 14 years after

the changes were implemented. The

4:22:444:22:49

Conservative Government, and, to be

fair, consecutive Labour governments

4:22:494:22:52

didn't pick up on it. Here we are

now. Since I have been elected, 12

4:22:524:22:56

times we have debated this. On every

single occasion the Government has

4:22:564:23:02

abstained. I would like the

Honourable Member to tell me what he

4:23:024:23:04

thinks I should have done that I've

not done yet. Can he? Go on!

If you

4:23:044:23:11

would like me to tell you what you

should do, and my intervention from

4:23:114:23:14

earlier.

The Honourable Member is a

pleasure to talk to, but I'm going

4:23:144:23:23

to move on. This motion that was

deliberately written to make sure it

4:23:234:23:28

was not party political, I can hear

the laughter coming from that side,

4:23:284:23:34

if you want to tell me what is

funny, I suggest an intervention.

4:23:344:23:39

The honourable lady has written a

motion, so it is not party

4:23:394:23:43

political. The diatribe we have

heard today from the benches

4:23:434:23:45

opposite has been nothing but narrow

party political point scoring that

4:23:454:23:51

has achieved nothing for WASPI,

nothing for those affected and only

4:23:514:23:54

for the interests of the SNP. They

deserve better!

This house calls on

4:23:544:24:00

the government to improve

transitional arrangements for women

4:24:004:24:05

born on or after the 6th of April

1951, who had been adversely

4:24:054:24:09

affected by the acceleration of the

increase to the state pension age.

4:24:094:24:12

What part of that canny Honourable

Member no get on board with?

4:24:124:24:19

Its rich of the Honourable Member to

talk about the attitudes for this

4:24:194:24:23

benches, considering some of the

guff that has been coming from those

4:24:234:24:27

benches. When we come to the house

with a nonpolitical amendment, a

4:24:274:24:37

nonpolitical motion, sorry, I

suggest you listen as well, we have

4:24:374:24:44

had more excuses, more of the same,

which everybody has covered. These

4:24:444:24:49

are women that are guilty of nothing

other than when they were born! And

4:24:494:24:54

it is only women that are affected

by this. We keep hearing about

4:24:544:24:58

equalisation, it is a strange

definition of equality when it is

4:24:584:25:03

only women getting targeted, and

they have been told they are going

4:25:034:25:05

to be left destitute. Now we are

told we have apprenticeships, if

4:25:054:25:12

anybody can't see the problem with

suggesting that 65-year-olds start a

4:25:124:25:17

new career and a new pension pot,

I'm sorry, I don't know who you are

4:25:174:25:21

talking to. It's an opportunity for

people. But it shouldn't be what

4:25:214:25:31

people are forced into. A better

idea is to pay them the pension. Pay

4:25:314:25:41

them the pension. In conclusion, I

have to express some frustration at

4:25:414:25:46

the Labour Party here. I'm being

very gentle, hire -- I appreciate we

4:25:464:25:52

are on board. The problem is the

constitutional question. Three years

4:25:524:25:59

ago we were told that we were better

together. The strong shoulders of

4:25:594:26:04

the United Kingdom. Vote no to save

your pension. It has been three

4:26:044:26:08

years. If we are better together,

prove it!

4:26:084:26:11

I would like to start by thanking

everybody that has contributed to

4:26:164:26:20

today's debate on this really

important issue. Members from across

4:26:204:26:24

the house. As we have seen, they

have made very passionate and

4:26:244:26:30

heartfelt speeches and interventions

throughout this debate. A welfare

4:26:304:26:35

and in system is only successful as

long as it is sustainable. As the

4:26:354:26:40

population balance shifts from

working age pension contributors to

4:26:404:26:43

those aged over 65, an increase in

the state pension age is necessary

4:26:434:26:49

for the welfare of all. As the

honourable gentleman from Eastbourne

4:26:494:26:53

pointed out, virtually every party

in this house today has had the

4:26:534:26:58

opportunity to raise it and has

taken the opportunity to raise it,

4:26:584:27:04

or has not taken the opportunity to

do something about it.

I do thank

4:27:044:27:09

you for giving way in supporting my

honourable friend, the member for

4:27:094:27:12

Eastbourne, does he not agree with

me that this failure to address this

4:27:124:27:17

issue, for whatever reason, from

whatever side of the house, reflects

4:27:174:27:20

badly on this parliament in general,

at a time when we could do with a

4:27:204:27:24

much higher standing in public

esteem?

Well, Madam Deputy Speaker,

4:27:244:27:30

we have taken transitional

arrangements. I do feel it is

4:27:304:27:36

insulting for parties across the

house that have played their part in

4:27:364:27:41

where we are today to somehow wash

their hands on it. I will go on to

4:27:414:27:44

make some points that he will

forgive me. Those that are able to

4:27:444:27:47

work should support those that are

not confident in the expectation of

4:27:474:27:52

similar support when they reach

their own retirement. Today's

4:27:524:27:56

workers provide for the support of

today's pensioners. That is why it

4:27:564:28:00

is so important to correctly balance

the contributions being paid in at

4:28:004:28:05

present with the pension is being

withdrawn and to adjust pension ages

4:28:054:28:09

to maintain this balance in the

future. Women retiring today can

4:28:094:28:14

still expect to receive the state

pension for 24 and a half years on

4:28:144:28:20

average, almost three times longer

than men. As the minister outlined,

4:28:204:28:25

the Department for Work and Pensions

has communicated to the changes to

4:28:254:28:27

the state pension age since they

were first set out to 22 years ago.

4:28:274:28:33

As the honourable friend Paul

Redditch pointed out, in response to

4:28:334:28:37

the concerns raised on the 2011 act,

we introduced the £1.1 billion

4:28:374:28:44

concession previously mentioned,

which is staggered the changes and

4:28:444:28:47

ensure that nobody would wait more

than 18 months for their pensions,

4:28:474:28:50

compared to the previous timetable.

Any further concession would cost

4:28:504:28:55

significantly more. It would ask

people of working age, more

4:28:554:28:59

specifically today's younger people,

as my honourable friend the member

4:28:594:29:02

for Chelmsford mentioned earlier, to

pay even more for it. These outcomes

4:29:024:29:07

simply cannot be justified. I am not

going to give way because they

4:29:074:29:14

criticise the Budget and the

Chancellor. I am actually going to

4:29:144:29:22

make some progress. But I would like

to address some of the issues that

4:29:224:29:27

have been raised by his side of the

house.

4:29:274:29:40

If the Scottish National Party

disagree with any of the welfare

4:29:404:29:46

reforms as pointed out by the member

for south Aberdeen they have the

4:29:464:29:49

power to do something about it in

Scotland.

4:29:494:29:54

The honourable gentleman... The

honourable gentleman for Ross Sky

4:29:544:30:00

and Lochaber has mentioned on many

occasions the Scottish national

4:30:004:30:06

party's Westminster Parliamentary

group published a report by land

4:30:064:30:13

man, I told you you would be keen to

listen, a number of options for

4:30:134:30:19

compensates women 56 effect by the

2011 act. Their preferred option was

4:30:194:30:25

to abon don the act returning up to

the timetable of the 1995 Pensions

4:30:254:30:29

Act. The SNP commissioned report put

the cost of this at.9 billion for

4:30:294:30:38

the period 2016/17 to 202021.

As it stands, this is simply

4:30:384:30:44

unaffordable. But it also had the

double misfortune of being wrong.

4:30:444:30:52

The report significantly understood

estimated the full coarse of

4:30:524:30:55

returning to the 95 type table. The

Government estimate would be round

4:30:554:31:01

14 billion, nearly double for the

same period, including the impact of

4:31:014:31:07

lost revenue from tax and National

Insurance, which the report does not

4:31:074:31:10

fully take into account.

But worse, the SNP's position only

4:31:104:31:15

applies to costs to the five year

window between 2016 and 2020, 1. The

4:31:154:31:21

costs beyond this are not included

in the option put forward. If the

4:31:214:31:27

changes we are implementing did not

happen the cost to working age

4:31:274:31:30

people would be well over 30 billion

over that extended period and this

4:31:304:31:35

is equivalent to over £1100 per

household. I am sure he would like

4:31:354:31:40

to justify that to his constituents.

The Scottish National Party has

4:31:404:31:44

suggested using the National

Insurance fund to pay for the cost

4:31:444:31:47

of scrapping the 2011 Pensions Act.

This is not the intended use of the

4:31:474:31:50

fund and it is worth reiterating

today's National Insurance

4:31:504:31:56

contributions fund today's pensions

with only two months outgoing

4:31:564:32:00

payments in excess at any given

time. The new state pension is more

4:32:004:32:04

generous for many whom have been

historically worse off over the old

4:32:044:32:08

system. By 2030 over three million

women stand to gave an if ran of

4:32:084:32:15

£5507 extra per year as a result of

the changes. The acceleration of the

4:32:154:32:19

increase in state pension age for

both women and men is necessary to

4:32:194:32:24

enensure the state pension system

sustainability, in light of

4:32:244:32:27

increasing life expectancy and the

increasing pressure on public

4:32:274:32:30

resources.

In fact by 2035 there will be more

4:32:304:32:33

than twice as many people aged 100

and over as there are no now.

4:32:334:32:37

Failing to act in the light of such

evidence would be indeed be

4:32:374:32:43

recklessment with the increasing

financial pressure described we

4:32:434:32:46

cannot and should not unpick a

policy in place for 22 year, it is

4:32:464:32:52

not affordable when we take into

account the average woman reaching

4:32:524:32:56

state pension age will get a hiring

state pension income over her

4:32:564:33:01

lifetime than any average woman at

any point before. It is important to

4:33:014:33:06

appreciate the modern lived in

experience of later life in the 21st

4:33:064:33:13

century which has altered

significantly since the state

4:33:134:33:19

pension's interception.

Interception. Longer life is

4:33:194:33:22

reshaping the programme and

participation of older people within

4:33:224:33:24

society. This includes sustaining

work and other economic activity,

4:33:244:33:31

these over 60 continue to earn,

learn, contribute and to

4:33:314:33:35

participate.

Contrary to assertions from the

4:33:354:33:41

other side of the house it is an

insult to after an apprenticeship,

4:33:414:33:46

it an insult...

Sorry I think the

minister had finished her remarks.

4:33:464:33:55

So, I probably hadn't finished quite

Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I just

4:33:554:34:01

say, I don't think anybody is

suggesting that older women should

4:34:014:34:06

be forced to take an apprenticeship.

Known is suggesting it should be,

4:34:064:34:11

they could be cajoled to do it. I

find it insulting that women over

4:34:114:34:15

the age of 60 should somehow by the

party here and the party here be put

4:34:154:34:20

on the scrap heap. They shouldn't be

allowed... They shouldn't be allowed

4:34:204:34:27

Madame Deputy Speaker to what they

want to do. If they want to take an

4:34:274:34:32

apprenticeship they should be

allowed to do it.

4:34:324:34:38

The question is that the question be

now put as many of of that opinion

4:34:424:34:48

say aye. To the contrary no. The

question is as on the order paper,

4:34:484:34:55

as many are of that opinion say aye.

To the contrary no. Division. Clear

4:34:554:35:00

the lobbies.

4:35:004:35:01

The question is is as on theed or

irpaper. As many of that opinion say

4:37:134:37:17

aye. Of the contheir no.

IAEAs to the right, no -- ayes to

4:37:174:37:25

the right. Nos to the left. Tellers

for the ayes... Patricia Gibson and

4:37:254:37:34

Patrick Grady. Terms for the noes,

Mhairi Black and Alan Campbell.

4:37:344:37:41

Rary no.

IAEAs

4:38:444:38:44

Lock the doors.

4:43:154:43:24

Order, order.

4:48:034:48:07

The ayes to the right, 468. The noes

to the left, zero.

4:48:134:48:27

The ayes to the right, 488.

4:48:334:48:34

The noes to the left, zero.

4:48:344:48:41

The ayes have it.

Madam Deputy

Speaker, we just had an impassioned

4:48:414:48:45

debate this afternoon and a very

clear and very decisive result. This

4:48:454:48:51

house has determined that the

Government should bring in

4:48:514:48:55

mitigation for the WASPI women. I am

seeking your guidance as to what we

4:48:554:48:58

now need to do to empower the

Secretary of State for Work and

4:48:584:49:02

Pensions to come to this chamber and

recognise Parliamentary democracy,

4:49:024:49:07

and put in place the Government's

plans to respect the motion that

4:49:074:49:10

this house has voted for this

evening.

4:49:104:49:13

Thank you for that point of order. I

think the most useful thing I can do

4:49:154:49:22

is to read out the statement that

was made by the Leader of the

4:49:224:49:27

Commons. He updated the house on the

26th of October on the Government's

4:49:274:49:36

approach to opposition Day debates

and said, were a motion tabled by an

4:49:364:49:42

opposition party has been approved

by the house, the relevant Minister

4:49:424:49:47

will respond to the resolution of

the house by making a statement no

4:49:474:49:52

more than 12 weeks after the debate.

This is to allow thoughtful

4:49:524:49:59

considerations of the points that

have been made, facilitate

4:49:594:50:03

collective discussion across

Government, especially of

4:50:034:50:10

cost-cutting issues, and to outline

any actions that have been taken. I

4:50:104:50:14

think it is very clear what the

Government will do and I am sure the

4:50:144:50:19

honourable gentleman might like to

use, for example, business questions

4:50:194:50:25

tomorrow to question the leader of

the house further on when the

4:50:254:50:30

Secretary of State or there might be

a response from the Government.

4:50:304:50:36

Would it be possible, given the

amount of time it takes to undertake

4:50:364:50:40

these divisions on opposition day

motions, instead to issue the

4:50:404:50:46

Government's side with white flag to

wave, rather than having to go

4:50:464:50:50

through the inconvenience of a

division? Sight it is very

4:50:504:50:54

ingenious, but as the speaker has

said before, it is up to each

4:50:544:50:58

individual member of this house to

decide which way to vote or even

4:50:584:51:02

whether to vote.

4:51:024:51:04

We now come to the second opposition

day motion in the name of the leader

4:51:114:51:17

of the Scottish National Party on EU

nationals. Stephen Gethins to move.

4:51:174:51:26

Madam Deputy Speaker, as

parliamentarians, when we are

4:51:264:51:29

elected it is the responsibility of

each of us to represent all

4:51:294:51:35

citizens, regardless of who they

voted for. We must also be aware

4:51:354:51:41

that there are consequences to the

actions that we take in this place,

4:51:414:51:45

just as there are consequences to

the lack of action that we take in

4:51:454:51:49

this place. Madam Deputy Speaker, we

are now 525 days, 75 weeks on

4:51:494:51:59

Thursday from the EU referendum. A

EU referendum that delivered

4:51:594:52:02

crushing uncertainty to fellow

citizens that happened to come from

4:52:024:52:07

elsewhere in the European Union. We

can change that. We can take away

4:52:074:52:13

that uncertainty which has been so

damaging for the past 75 weeks. That

4:52:134:52:21

is why our motion today reflects the

Brexit committee report and states

4:52:214:52:27

that we should now make a unilateral

decision to safeguard the rights of

4:52:274:52:32

EU nationals living in the UK. That

desire direct quote from the

4:52:324:52:39

cross-party group that approved this

on the Brexit committee. This is

4:52:394:52:42

something that the Government should

have done months ago. Once again, it

4:52:424:52:47

is up to the side of the house to

give the Government the opportunity

4:52:474:52:51

to take away the uncertainty and to

do the right thing by our fellow

4:52:514:52:57

citizens. That should be the case

for EU citizens and core family

4:52:574:53:00

members.

Can I congratulate him on

winning this road? It looks like the

4:53:004:53:11

hugged are exempting themselves from

democracy on this parliamentary

4:53:114:53:14

chamber. Would he agree that this

uncertainty has to be cleared up

4:53:144:53:17

once and for all? Many organisations

require EU nationals to stay

4:53:174:53:29

world-class.

Will come on to

university shortly, but the

4:53:294:53:35

excellence of Edinburgh University

is only topped by the University of

4:53:354:53:39

St Andrews! He makes the point that

I hope that this house will back EU

4:53:394:53:46

citizens being able to remain, we

will take away the uncertainty they

4:53:464:53:49

have been given. As we should be

delivering fairness for WASPI women,

4:53:494:53:52

we should be delivering fairness for

EU citizens as well. Let me look at

4:53:524:53:59

the contribution. It is not simply

those in communities that have a EU

4:53:594:54:05

passport that will benefit, but the

community as a whole. A lot of

4:54:054:54:09

statistics are bandied about in

terms of the relationship with

4:54:094:54:12

Europe. Let me just give you a few.

There is the £40 billion just to

4:54:124:54:17

leave the EU, just to keep us

standing still, that we will not be

4:54:174:54:22

able to spend on public services.

There are the 80,000 jobs that it

4:54:224:54:30

will cost us in Scotland alone.

Another statistic is a £350 million

4:54:304:54:37

a week for the NHS that we were

promised. These were statistics that

4:54:374:54:45

came from senior government members

that are now in a position to

4:54:454:54:48

deliver that promise.

4:54:484:54:52

I have two universities in my

constituencies and they very often

4:54:544:54:57

rely on EU national expertise for

some of the technology that they

4:54:574:55:05

teach about.

It is not just

universities that mean it is

4:55:054:55:09

important, it is across a range of

industries. Let me just compare some

4:55:094:55:13

of the statistics. The 3 billion

just to leave the European Union,

4:55:134:55:21

and the 350 million that we are yet

to see for the NHS every single

4:55:214:55:24

week. I will give you some

applicable statistics. In Scotland,

4:55:244:55:31

each EU citizen working in my

country contributes £34,000 to GDP

4:55:314:55:39

overall. Each EU citizen working in

Scotland contributes £10,500 in

4:55:394:55:45

Government revenue, the taxes that

we spend on these public services.

4:55:454:55:51

Frankly, EU citizens are better for

the economy than Brexit is, as far

4:55:514:55:56

as we are concerned. So, and this is

a critical point, and maybe the

4:55:564:56:00

Minister will touch upon this when

he sums up, will this Government

4:56:004:56:04

keep the promise made by Vote Leave,

made by senior members of the

4:56:044:56:11

government, that there will be no

change for EU citizens resident in

4:56:114:56:15

the UK and that they will be

treated, and once again, Madam

4:56:154:56:19

Deputy Speaker, I quote, no less

favourably than they are at present.

4:56:194:56:24

Vote Leave did not tell us much, but

they did make promises. These

4:56:244:56:27

promises were made by senior members

of the Government who have a

4:56:274:56:30

responsibility to keep them. I will

give way to the Honourable Member.

I

4:56:304:56:36

thank him for giving way. Is he

aware that for him to say a EU sits

4:56:364:56:43

in that came here in 1968, who had a

stamping their passport might have

4:56:434:56:50

lost their passport, apparently

there will be required to prove that

4:56:504:56:53

they have not left the United

Kingdom for two years since they

4:56:534:56:58

arrived in 1968?

The Honourable

Member makes an excellent point. I

4:56:584:57:04

have had people in my own

constituency that have lived here

4:57:044:57:07

from the 1970s, as far as I am

concerned they have as much right to

4:57:074:57:11

live here as I do, and they have

been taken away that right. That is

4:57:114:57:14

something that is a disgrace to each

and everyone of us. If I could just

4:57:144:57:19

talk about key industries, and I

will make some progress now, key

4:57:194:57:25

industries, you know, the member

says a scaremongering, there is one

4:57:254:57:28

way to get rid of scaremongering and

that is to vote with us tonight and

4:57:284:57:32

give EU citizens certainty. That is

a power that this Parliament has.

4:57:324:57:38

This Parliament has the power to put

an end to that uncertainty. Let me

4:57:384:57:42

talk about some of the key

industries. That side of the house

4:57:424:57:46

should be absolutely ashamed. In the

NHS, any of us that spent time in

4:57:464:57:51

hospital recently or who have

relatives who spent time, they will

4:57:514:57:54

tell the outstanding care from all

members of the NHS and all staff

4:57:544:57:58

members, including EU nationals. Few

of will not be treated by a EU

4:57:584:58:03

National at some point. The BMA

report that 45% of doctors are

4:58:034:58:09

considering leaving, and 19% had

already made arrangements to do so,

4:58:094:58:14

that is damaging for each and every

one of us. On farms, seasonal

4:58:144:58:20

workers make an absolutely crucial

contribution on farms. Just a couple

4:58:204:58:24

of weeks ago I was speaking to a

farmer in my constituency who plants

4:58:244:58:29

properly. What he was saying to me

was that broccoli has to be

4:58:294:58:32

harvested by hand. Seasonal workers

are down. If they continue to go

4:58:324:58:37

down, that harvest cannot be taken

in. That is an uncertainty that has

4:58:374:58:41

been created to industries in my

constituency and, I suspect, in

4:58:414:58:46

rural constituencies across the

United Kingdom. On that point, I

4:58:464:58:48

will give way to the honourable

lady.

There is not a lot of rural

4:58:484:58:54

elements to my constituency, but

would he accept that the same

4:58:544:58:57

principle applies in relation to

construction, where we could face a

4:58:574:59:01

similar lack of skilled workers that

will hold up the urgent need for

4:59:014:59:05

more affordable homes, which is what

we need in my constituency

4:59:054:59:09

desperately?

The honourable lady

makes an excellent point. The

4:59:094:59:13

University of St Andrews, a big

employer in my constituency, 22% of

4:59:134:59:19

academic staff and 31% of research

staff come from other EU countries.

4:59:194:59:28

That is absolutely critical. I will

just touch on the human angle. At

4:59:284:59:30

one point I was going to raise that

it is all very well talking about

4:59:304:59:37

statistics and the big impact, I

asked some colleagues about EU

4:59:374:59:43

nationals in their constituency. I

will give you some examples. I think

4:59:434:59:47

this is important. In Glasgow North,

for example, Michelle Gordon, a Scot

4:59:474:59:52

who originally from Germany, runs a

language hope to help young and old

4:59:524:59:55

learn language skills. Edinburgh

South, there is a Scot originally

4:59:555:00:03

from Latvia, volunteering to help

grow and cultivate languages to The

5:00:035:00:13

Vegetables for local children. A

Scot originally from Italy works

5:00:135:00:18

with five other EU nationals of

ground-breaking genetics, including

5:00:185:00:22

ground-breaking work on dyslexia. In

Edinburgh we have Spanish and Greek

5:00:225:00:32

dentists plugging a gap.

5:00:325:00:37

The MP for Central air she has been

married to a Scot Germany who has

5:00:375:00:43

been here for 32 years. And set up a

fishing business as a Scot from

5:00:435:00:54

Aberdeen.

I thank the honourable

gentleman forgiving way. You, with

5:00:545:00:57

his knowledge of the Scottish

Parliament, would know that the

5:00:575:01:03

finishing work was done by a

craftsman from Eastern Europe and

5:01:035:01:06

both of them told me, in another

place, that work could not have been

5:01:065:01:10

carried out but for them, they had

the skills in this country.

The

5:01:105:01:14

honourable gentleman makes an

excellent point and from his own

5:01:145:01:17

experience in the Scottish

parliament, where that Parliament

5:01:175:01:21

should reflect the modern Scotland

that draws from so many people. Let

5:01:215:01:25

me take your comment from this side

of the house...

I'm grateful to the

5:01:255:01:31

honourable gentleman. Is he really

insinuating that there is actually a

5:01:315:01:35

threat in his mind, because it only

exists in his mind, that we are

5:01:355:01:39

somehow going to remove these very

valuable members of our society? It

5:01:395:01:46

is a preposterous suggestion and

simply fear mongering.

This is

5:01:465:01:52

outrageous, if this was

scaremongering they would be quite

5:01:525:01:55

happy to remove uncertainty from EU

citizens and they have not, and what

5:01:555:02:00

happened to the 100 EU nationals who

received Home Office letters and

5:02:005:02:03

were then told it was an unfortunate

error? What they should have been

5:02:035:02:08

told is we are sorry, you are

welcome to stay. I want to finish

5:02:085:02:15

off, the UK is at a crossroads, a

crossroads in the kind of country

5:02:155:02:20

that we want to see. The first mark

of that should be how we treat those

5:02:205:02:25

who are fellow citizens. It is a

message that is coming out, that

5:02:255:02:30

they are bargaining chips. Is it a

message that we should be welcoming?

5:02:305:02:35

Like the WASPI women. If the UK

Government will not keep the

5:02:355:02:41

promises that were made by vote to

leave by senior members of this

5:02:415:02:46

administration who are in a position

to do something, they should devolve

5:02:465:02:50

power to the Scottish Government and

other devolved administrations too.

5:02:505:02:54

I'm sorry for those who have not

been able to get in, but I would

5:02:545:02:58

like to finish with this. The day

after the EU referendum, the First

5:02:585:03:03

Minister of Scotland said this. I

want to take the opportunity this

5:03:035:03:08

morning to speak directly to

citizens of other EU countries

5:03:085:03:14

living here in Scotland, you remain

well come here, Scotland is your

5:03:145:03:17

home and your contribution remains

valuable. What we are asking of

5:03:175:03:23

parliament today is to use the

powers that we have, is what Brexit

5:03:235:03:30

has already requested, to remove

uncertainty from EU citizens. We can

5:03:305:03:33

do it today, right now. Thank you.

The question is, as on the order

5:03:335:03:41

paper, Minister Brendan Lewis.

Thank

you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is

5:03:415:03:48

good to have a chance to create some

of these things in accurately stated

5:03:485:03:52

just a few moments ago. I have to

say, it's interesting to listen to

5:03:525:04:00

the Scottish Nationalist party make

a speech where they simply decide to

5:04:005:04:04

not recognise democracy. There was a

referendum in this country, and a

5:04:045:04:09

decision was made, where they could

deliver on what the people of the

5:04:095:04:12

United Kingdom voted for. We will do

that in a way that delivers a good

5:04:125:04:18

deal for the United Kingdom. Rather

than listening to the Scottish

5:04:185:04:23

Nationalists party simply playing

catch up or trying to play catch up

5:04:235:04:27

yet again. I will just explain why,

yet again, they are behind the curve

5:04:275:04:31

on what is happening and where we

are. It is slightly odd, and

5:04:315:04:36

somewhat disconcerting, I suspect,

for many people in Scotland to

5:04:365:04:41

listen to their representatives, as

they would argue, sitting here today

5:04:415:04:45

failing to represent the very people

in Scotland who elected them, there

5:04:455:04:49

is not a single mention of any

British citizen or Scottish

5:04:495:04:54

individual working and living in the

EU. We need to ensure that we do the

5:04:545:04:59

right thing by then. I will make

some progress before taking

5:04:595:05:05

interventions. There are more than 3

million EU citizens currently living

5:05:055:05:09

in the UK and we have been very

clear that we value their

5:05:095:05:12

contribution to our national life,

both to our economy and to our rich

5:05:125:05:18

and diverse society. We want them to

stay. This is something we do agree

5:05:185:05:23

on. We want to stay and deliver

that. I give way.

On the

5:05:235:05:30

contribution of EU nationals, does

it not concern you that there is a

5:05:305:05:35

89% drop of nurses and midwives

coming from Europe, and UK born

5:05:355:05:40

nurses coming off the register. What

will that mean for our country when

5:05:405:05:46

we cannot recruit nurses and

midwives to carry out those tasks?

5:05:465:05:52

I'm sure the honourable gentleman

will have done his homework to look

5:05:525:05:55

at what we are doing, and what we

are doing as we leave the EU, we

5:05:555:06:02

have independent migratory experts

looking at our commitment post

5:06:025:06:04

Brexit but let me be clear, we are

still in the EU, we have freedom of

5:06:045:06:09

movement in the EU and that will

continue until we leave the EU and

5:06:095:06:13

just last year, I will finish with

the first intervention, it is clear

5:06:135:06:19

that in this country we have net

migration figures are 42,000 net

5:06:195:06:27

migration figures, more than half of

which were EU nationals coming into

5:06:275:06:30

the country. We should continue to

be a country that welcomes people

5:06:305:06:36

and plays a part. I will make

progress and take more

5:06:365:06:39

interventions. I'm conscious that

there is limited time. It's an issue

5:06:395:06:46

that impact the lives of millions of

hard-working people across the

5:06:465:06:49

country and it has been the Prime

Minister's first priority in this

5:06:495:06:53

negotiation to ensure that they can

continue living their lives here as

5:06:535:06:57

before. I welcome the opportunity to

outline this further today. We have

5:06:575:07:02

made it very clear at every

opportunity that we want to offer EU

5:07:025:07:06

citizens living in the UK certainty

about their future status as early

5:07:065:07:10

as possible. We have been clear that

no EU citizen currently in the UK

5:07:105:07:15

lawfully has to leave at the point

where we exit the EU. Honourable

5:07:155:07:19

members can play their part in

reassuring their constituents of

5:07:195:07:25

that point. That's why in June we

published a fair and comprehensive

5:07:255:07:30

offer, irrespective of the position

of EU citizens and family members in

5:07:305:07:34

the UK, which gives those residents,

here before specified dates, the

5:07:345:07:39

opportunity to take UK settled

status after completing their

5:07:395:07:43

qualifying residency period. It

would enable them to continue with

5:07:435:07:47

their lives as before. Family

dependents, who qualified before the

5:07:475:07:54

exit date, can apply for UK settled

status after five years continued

5:07:545:07:58

residency, irrespective of these

specified dates. We have an

5:07:585:08:06

application system that is

streamlined and user-friendly. We

5:08:065:08:09

can develop a system that draws on

existing government data, including

5:08:095:08:13

employment records held by HMRC,

which can verify residents as they

5:08:135:08:17

work.

5:08:175:08:20

I give way to the honourable lady.

I

thank the Honourable member for

5:08:255:08:29

giving way. Will he not agree that

every day that passes where EU

5:08:295:08:33

citizens are now living in limbo and

they come to my surgery in big

5:08:335:08:39

numbers, I can assure him, that

every day that passes is important

5:08:395:08:43

and the government needs to get on

with setting out what exactly

5:08:435:08:47

settled status is an design the

progress tomorrow?

I would say to

5:08:475:08:53

the honourable lady that some of

what has already been said, if she

5:08:535:08:57

reads the government offer, it

clearly answers the point she has

5:08:575:09:00

made. She has a part to play in

reassuring her residence rather than

5:09:005:09:04

leaving them wondering about. We

have already said there will be a

5:09:045:09:08

two-year after Brexit for people to

make this application, and we can

5:09:085:09:18

avoid any unnecessary administrative

burdens. For those who hold an EU

5:09:185:09:22

permanent residence document, there

will be a simple process to change

5:09:225:09:26

this into a settled status document.

In terms of what EU citizens think

5:09:265:09:33

of his proposals, one of my

constituents, an EU citizen, they

5:09:335:09:39

think they are bureaucratic and

expensive, and he should withdraw

5:09:395:09:47

that status. Unilaterally. They

should do it now.

I'm sure the

5:09:475:09:50

honourable gentleman will want to

check the details of what we have in

5:09:505:09:54

terms of that process and update his

residence to ensure they do not have

5:09:545:10:00

those concerns as what he has said

is inaccurate. We have been clear

5:10:005:10:04

that we fully expect the EU and

member states to ensure that the

5:10:045:10:09

rights of UK nationals living across

the EU before the specified date are

5:10:095:10:14

safeguarded in a reciprocal way and

despite not mentioning so far this

5:10:145:10:17

afternoon, I would like to think

that members across the house would

5:10:175:10:20

want to do the right thing to ensure

British citizens have their rights

5:10:205:10:24

protected as well. This issue must

be resolved as part of the

5:10:245:10:28

negotiations on exit from the EU to

ensure the fair treatment of UK

5:10:285:10:33

nationals living in these countries.

They are not convinced of the

5:10:335:10:42

government's integrity on this

particular point. Earlier this year

5:10:425:10:46

I took a petition to the European

Parliament, arguing for equal rights

5:10:465:10:51

for EU citizens living here and

British citizens living in the EU.

5:10:515:10:57

It's gone through three committees

of Parliament and asks several other

5:10:575:11:02

things. It has gone through three

committees of Parliament and can I

5:11:025:11:06

remind them that, at the end of the

day, European Parliament has the

5:11:065:11:10

power of veto over negotiations. And

I think you should bear that in mind

5:11:105:11:17

because a lot of members here have

also signed these petitions and it's

5:11:175:11:23

now going through the EU process.

It's an interesting contribution

5:11:235:11:29

from the honourable lady and I would

hope that she supports us in making

5:11:295:11:31

sure that we are able to make sure

all EU citizens in the UK are aware

5:11:315:11:36

of what the government is doing to

make sure they have confidence in

5:11:365:11:40

staying here. As I said, 1 million

UK nationals have built their lives

5:11:405:11:44

elsewhere in Europe and we want to

ensure we get a fair deal for EU

5:11:445:11:48

citizens in the UK and UK nationals

in the EU. It's a sensible approach

5:11:485:11:53

and what we will continue to take in

the coming weeks but, as I say, it

5:11:535:11:57

is notable that we are the party

making that point and I'm not

5:11:575:12:01

hearing that from members opposite

in this debate. We have detailed and

5:12:015:12:07

constructive negotiations with the

EU on citizens rights and we are

5:12:075:12:10

within touching distance of an

agreement. About two thirds of the

5:12:105:12:14

issues identified have been resolved

and we have isolated the key issues

5:12:145:12:18

but we will be working hard in the

coming days and weeks to finalise

5:12:185:12:22

this chapter of the withdrawal

agreement and of our shared

5:12:225:12:27

objective of reassurance to EU

citizens in the UK and UK nationals

5:12:275:12:31

in the EU. For the UK to take

unilateral positions at this stage

5:12:315:12:36

in negotiations would not be

appropriate or responsible.

He has

5:12:365:12:43

sought to criticise my honourable

friend committee member for North

5:12:435:12:46

East Fife, for not mentioning UK

nationals in Europe. I know he has

5:12:465:12:51

met with them but can he tell us

why, if the government cares so much

5:12:515:12:55

about UK nationals and living in

Europe, where the Minister for

5:12:555:12:59

exiting the EU has refused to meet

with the British in Europe, who are

5:12:595:13:03

in that group, despite countless

requests to do so?

As the Minister

5:13:035:13:12

for this portfolio, it's right we

have representatives in this group

5:13:125:13:15

as we have done and I will continue

to do so. The fact remains that

5:13:155:13:18

there needs to be an agreement

between us and the EU, which should

5:13:185:13:23

protect the status of UK nationals

living, working and studying

5:13:235:13:27

elsewhere in the EU. The motion

before the house this afternoon

5:13:275:13:31

calls for the introduction of

proposals in this section of

5:13:315:13:34

Parliament, to unilaterally

safeguard the rights of EU citizens

5:13:345:13:39

in the UK. I have explained why we

should not take unilateral action on

5:13:395:13:43

this issue, it would be the wrong

thing to do for British citizens.

5:13:435:13:48

Otherwise, I also have to say that

this measure is a little light, as

5:13:485:13:55

this government has announced new

legislation to ensure the agreement

5:13:555:13:58

between the UK and EU in our

domestic law. I will give way. When

5:13:585:14:04

I could I ask what consideration he

or his team have given to the case

5:14:045:14:11

of the 3 million, which is a

campaign group seeking to look at

5:14:115:14:14

the fact that when EU nationals

arrive and a different treaty, they

5:14:145:14:19

had nothing to do with the Home

Office and one of their fears is the

5:14:195:14:23

Home Office and their procedures may

lead to a Compper catered procedure

5:14:235:14:28

whereas a lighter touch approach,

say from the local authority, may be

5:14:285:14:32

more appropriate for those who did

arrive under free movement with a

5:14:325:14:37

different set of rights,

5:14:375:14:41

The honourable lady makes a fair

point. I have met with them. It will

5:14:425:14:52

be streamlined and designed to work

with the user groups working with

5:14:525:14:57

that system, to make sure we can

grab citizen status swiftly and

5:14:575:15:00

effectively. The implantation will

implement a contract, including

5:15:005:15:10

agreements on citizen rights, in UK

law by primary legislation. The

5:15:105:15:15

party opposite are somewhat behind

the curve. This will allow the

5:15:155:15:21

agreement on citizens rights having

direct enforcement and affecting UK

5:15:215:15:25

law. Ahead of any primary

legislation, we are planning to set

5:15:255:15:28

up a application process in 2018, so

that EU citizens and their family

5:15:285:15:34

members who want to get their new UK

immigration status at the earliest

5:15:345:15:38

convenience will be able to do so

officially, swiftly and effectively.

5:15:385:15:44

EU citizens have the government's

complete assurance that we want them

5:15:445:15:50

to stay, we value their presence and

they continue to be welcome in the

5:15:505:15:55

UK. Given that it is in the interest

of all parties to protect the rights

5:15:555:16:01

of their citizens once the UK except

the EU, we are confident that both

5:16:015:16:06

UK citizens and EU nationals will be

protected with a reciprocal

5:16:065:16:08

arrangement. We are very close to

reaching an agreement that will

5:16:085:16:16

protect UK citizens and EU nationals

alike. Anything else would risk

5:16:165:16:21

undermining our protection of UK

nationals in the EU. When we reach

5:16:215:16:27

this agreement, the government will

provide certainty to the millions of

5:16:275:16:32

UK citizens that have made the EU

their home. Two

Just to say, there

5:16:325:16:42

are still a lot of speakers that

want to intervene. After the Shadow

5:16:425:16:47

Minister, I will impose a time limit

of three minutes.

5:16:475:16:52

The trade secretary told the Tory

party conference that the court

5:17:025:17:08

would like to be able to give

assurances to EU nationals in the

5:17:085:17:13

UK, but it depends on reciprocation

of other countries. He said any

5:17:135:17:16

other strategy, and again, quote,

would be to hand over one of our

5:17:165:17:23

main cards in the negotiations and

it doesn't necessarily make sense at

5:17:235:17:28

this point. This is using the EU

nationals as a bargaining chip. This

5:17:285:17:36

is the government's approach. This

could all have been resolved quickly

5:17:365:17:42

if the government made a guarantee

of rights. This is what those of us

5:17:425:17:46

on those benches were pushing for

and it would certainly have been

5:17:465:17:51

reciprocated by the EU. At the start

of negotiation, the EU tabled an

5:17:515:17:57

offer that opened the doors to a

reciprocal arrangement. At the UK

5:17:575:18:03

accepted and worked with the EU the

details of this, we may have settled

5:18:035:18:06

the issue by now. The UK did not

take that course and, instead, it

5:18:065:18:14

has created a climate of uncertainty

and confusion. Uncertainty has

5:18:145:18:21

already led to discrimination

against EU citizens. Let me make

5:18:215:18:26

some progress, as we already limited

by time. Labour and the EU citizens

5:18:265:18:38

right group, they found more than 2

million incidents illegally

5:18:385:18:48

preventing applications by EU

nationals. It has been reviewed by

5:18:485:18:52

the equalities commission, writing

to a number of advertisers. How can

5:18:525:18:57

EU nationals, who have been here for

decades, continue to feel welcome if

5:18:575:19:01

we allow discrimination of this

kind? Even the Home Office is

5:19:015:19:08

finding it hard to deal with the

confusion. Over the summer, they

5:19:085:19:11

sent 100 letters to EU nationals

living in the UK, ordering them to

5:19:115:19:15

leave the country or face

deportation. The letters were

5:19:155:19:20

intimidating and unsettling,

especially those given the

5:19:205:19:24

recipients were in the UK perfectly

legally. Instead, the Government

5:19:245:19:32

made its own offer on EU citizens

rights, the so-called settled

5:19:325:19:36

status. The offer has been

extensively criticised by the 3

5:19:365:19:40

million. The Government must

urgently improve their offer and

5:19:405:19:45

stop acting as if the status is a

settled matter. The issues with the

5:19:455:19:50

settled status is that the

Government seems to think that

5:19:505:19:56

assimilating EU nationals into the

existing system is sufficient. This

5:19:565:20:01

will set out in the Home Office

white Paper. It is not sufficient.

5:20:015:20:05

YouGov has to realise very quickly

that both systems need a total

5:20:055:20:12

overhaul. Moreover, today's debate

focuses on EU nationals in the UK.

5:20:125:20:20

Let us not forget British citizens

living in the EU 27 countries.

5:20:205:20:23

Despite the pensioner stereotype,

80% of them are working on a

5:20:235:20:30

cross-border basis. What is the

Government doing to secure their

5:20:305:20:35

rights of freedom of movement and

recognise professional

5:20:355:20:39

qualifications? What assurance can

the Minister give today that these

5:20:395:20:42

rights will be guaranteed before

proceeding to phase two of the

5:20:425:20:46

negotiations? Another problem is the

attitude of some of the dilemma that

5:20:465:20:53

those opposite that EU nationals are

lucky to be in this country, rather

5:20:535:20:58

than acknowledging the value that

they bring and the contribution they

5:20:585:21:00

give to communities and the economy,

particularly in the book services,

5:21:005:21:04

not least the NHS. There are 58,000

NHS professionals from the EU alone.

5:21:045:21:14

The Prime Minister said very clearly

that we want you to stay and we

5:21:205:21:23

value your commitment. What part of

it doesn't he understand?

It is

5:21:235:21:32

clear that things are still

confusing for everyone. What part of

5:21:325:21:37

it do you not understand, that you

need to give simple answers and then

5:21:375:21:40

we can move on? In total there are

2.4 million EU migrants working in

5:21:405:21:50

the UK, a far greater proportion are

in work than the population as a

5:21:505:21:56

whole. They make a huge

contribution. What they desperately

5:21:565:22:00

need now is certainty, before the

conclusion of phase one. This is the

5:22:005:22:07

bit I think you need to understand.

Certainty for EU citizens in the UK.

5:22:075:22:12

Certainty for UK citizens in the EU.

Certainty for the businesses and

5:22:125:22:17

communities that they have built

their lives in. The few provides

5:22:175:22:22

non-, as it is still busy

negotiating with itself. It seems to

5:22:225:22:26

be an alien concept to this

government. But citizens have

5:22:265:22:30

rights. EU nationals came here in

good faith when their rights were

5:22:305:22:34

guaranteed under the Freedom of

movement rules. Rather than

5:22:345:22:38

guaranteeing those rights, the few

is offering them the opportunity to

5:22:385:22:42

reapply for them, to charge them for

the privilege and to pretend that

5:22:425:22:46

nothing much has changed. EU

negotiators seem to believe that

5:22:465:22:55

this government is incompetent. We

on the side of the house value EU

5:22:555:22:59

nationals. It is high time that the

Government did as well and followed

5:22:595:23:03

up warm words with action.

5:23:035:23:06

My constituency actually voted to

leave the EU. This was not because

5:23:115:23:15

the local people are hostile to

immigrants. The University of East

5:23:155:23:23

Anglia analysis, look it up.

Immigrants from inside and outside

5:23:235:23:27

the European Union are welcome and

valued contributors to our

5:23:275:23:29

community. There is no doubt that EU

citizens make a key contribution.

5:23:295:23:38

Food processing has the highest

proportion of workers from the EU

5:23:385:23:43

from any sector, 58% of its labour

consisting of EU nationals. The

5:23:435:23:48

industry employs 120,000 people

across the UK. Many EU nationals

5:23:485:23:52

choose to make their permanent home

here, and many also choose to stay

5:23:525:23:55

for a time to work and then move on.

This creates a constant demand for

5:23:555:24:01

more workers, especially when

factors such as poor infrastructure,

5:24:015:24:04

particularly poor broadband, sadly

drives many young people out of the

5:24:045:24:09

area. I'm sure it'll come to the

house as no surprise that one of the

5:24:095:24:17

main reasons for voting leave was

the common fisheries policy. Leaving

5:24:175:24:20

the European Union and the common

fisheries policy means leaving the

5:24:205:24:25

single market, putting an end to

free movement of labour. The

5:24:255:24:29

prospect of needing more immigration

in the area because we have more

5:24:295:24:32

fish than we can catch an process is

a welcome one. However, it is clear

5:24:325:24:35

that there is a very real need to

develop the local workforce in the

5:24:355:24:39

long term. This includes not only

our own home-grown workforce, but

5:24:395:24:43

also the EU citizens that already

stay here and their children. This

5:24:435:24:47

can be done outside of the EU, as

taking back control over immigration

5:24:475:24:52

does not mean an end to immigration,

and nor should it. Bearing in mind

5:24:525:24:57

the great contribution of EU

nationals, as somebody who has an

5:24:575:25:01

international family of my own,

married to a wife from Azerbaijan,

5:25:015:25:07

like the Prime Minister and the UK

Government, iron in favour of

5:25:075:25:11

guaranteeing the rights of EU

citizens already living in the UK.

5:25:115:25:14

It is right we provide protection

and reassurance to families and

5:25:145:25:17

businesses as quickly as we can.

However, this must work both ways.

5:25:175:25:21

What we are debating here is the

idea of unilaterally granting these

5:25:215:25:24

rights. Without securing these same

rights were British citizens abroad.

5:25:245:25:30

I agree with members opposite that

Europeans that have made their home

5:25:305:25:34

in Scotland are very welcome. The

same must be true for Scots that

5:25:345:25:37

have their homes in Europe. What we

are doing in leaving the EU is not a

5:25:375:25:43

game. The question of rights after

Brexit affects millions of people,

5:25:435:25:46

not just EU citizens in the UK, but

EU citizens in the EU. The Scottish

5:25:465:25:54

National Party, which claims to

stand up for Scotland, are willing

5:25:545:25:58

to put Scots living outside the UK

last. Neither the EU or the UK

5:25:585:26:06

citizens should be used as

bargaining chips. However, this is

5:26:065:26:09

still in negotiation.

Order.

May I

begin by agreeing with my honourable

5:26:095:26:19

friend. It is an absolute disgrace

that 80 months after the referendum

5:26:195:26:24

the highly valued EU National still

do not know what lies in store for

5:26:245:26:31

them. Those well-respected,

hard-working tax paying members of

5:26:315:26:35

society have been treated

appallingly by this government.

5:26:355:26:37

Despite numerous opportunities to do

so, they have ignored all

5:26:375:26:43

opportunities to make a unilateral

guaranteed to EU nationals that

5:26:435:26:47

their current status will remain

unaltered when the UK leaves the

5:26:475:26:51

European Union. I repeat today,

please will the Government,

5:26:515:26:55

regardless of what others do, do the

right thing and say to those EU

5:26:555:26:59

citizens living, working and

contributing economically and

5:26:595:27:03

socially to the well-being of this

country that we will guarantee that

5:27:035:27:07

your status will not change with

Brexit and that you are welcome

5:27:075:27:11

here. Like many others have said, I

have had my mailbox full, and we

5:27:115:27:18

have had a steady stream of people

worried and looking for some

5:27:185:27:21

certainty I cannot give. I will give

one example to the Minister. One

5:27:215:27:24

example. A Polish EU citizen who has

lived in my hometown for the last 12

5:27:245:27:33

years with young son. She is a

highly qualified, respected

5:27:335:27:39

multilingual social worker, working

in the area of domestic violence

5:27:395:27:42

reduction among communities where

English is not the first language.

5:27:425:27:46

She recently applied for UK

citizenship, so keen is she to stay

5:27:465:27:50

in Scotland after Brexit. On October

the 9th, she received a letter from

5:27:505:27:54

the Home Office saying that her

application had been refused on a

5:27:545:27:58

minor technicality because she did

not supply her blue resident card.

5:27:585:28:05

They could not be satisfied she was

a permanent resident on the date of

5:28:055:28:08

the application. They said to her,

the fact that you had been refused

5:28:085:28:12

is not because you do not qualify

for permanent residence, it is

5:28:125:28:16

because you are not provided a

permanent residence blue card. It is

5:28:165:28:20

painfully absurd. Her blue card may

have expired, it may have been lost,

5:28:205:28:24

but she has provided references and

she has provided a host of other

5:28:245:28:28

documentary evidence. The irony

being that we all received very

5:28:285:28:32

shortly afterwards from the Home

Office guidance that we will not

5:28:325:28:36

have applications refused on minor

technicalities. I ask the minister,

5:28:365:28:40

could he looks specifically at the

case? Looking wider, we putting

5:28:405:28:46

people through this? Why are we

putting people through the emotional

5:28:465:28:48

ringer when we are deliberate in

making its difficult for people that

5:28:485:28:51

simply want to get on with their

lives? I wholeheartedly agree with

5:28:515:28:58

my friend from North East Fife,

saying that Scotland needs a bespoke

5:28:585:29:01

immigration policy. The Government

here cannot provide what Scotland

5:29:015:29:05

needs. So it must evolve immigration

policy to the Scottish Government. A

5:29:055:29:10

policy which says thank you, and how

much we appreciate those that have

5:29:105:29:13

chosen to make Scotland a home from

abroad.

5:29:135:29:18

It is with some sadness that I rise

to speak in this debate. Mine is the

5:29:195:29:24

constituency that proportionally has

received more migrants from Eastern

5:29:245:29:28

Europe than anywhere else in the

country. Of all places, Boston and

5:29:285:29:33

Skegness knows the value that those

people from Poland, Latvia,

5:29:335:29:37

Lithuania and elsewhere bring to the

local economy. We have heard a great

5:29:375:29:43

deal already today of how surgeries

are flooded with people worried

5:29:435:29:48

about their livelihoods. Well, if I

may be blunt, surgeries may be

5:29:485:29:54

flooded if you scaremonger and if

you tell people that they may not be

5:29:545:29:57

welcome here. If you are for

political purposes prepared to

5:29:575:30:06

weaponised the lives and livelihoods

of people that have come to this

5:30:065:30:09

country in good faith and who the

Prime Minister has said are welcome

5:30:095:30:13

to stay, that is not good politics.

It is not good democracy. Frankly,

5:30:135:30:17

it is shameful conduct on the part

of people that have other political

5:30:175:30:23

motives when it comes to what is a

genuinely important matter for

5:30:235:30:29

constituents across this house.

5:30:295:30:33

On this side of the house, we have a

responsibility, I think, that we

5:30:335:30:39

have heard we are prepared to take

up, which is to reassure people who

5:30:395:30:44

are genuinely, in some cases,

concerned about their future in this

5:30:445:30:48

country and we have, as we have

heard from the front French already,

5:30:485:30:53

heard not just from the Prime

Minister but from a consistent

5:30:535:30:57

number of the whole of this

government, not only making a very

5:30:575:31:02

solid and sensible pitch, that we

want people to stay but also that

5:31:025:31:06

those who have asked for them to

leave do not represent the

5:31:065:31:13

mainstream of Brexit voters. They do

not represent a large number of

5:31:135:31:17

people. In my own constituency, the

only people who ask for foreigners

5:31:175:31:25

to "Go home", as it is often put is

either those people who seek to

5:31:255:31:29

misrepresent Brexit voters or those

with nakedly racist propositions to

5:31:295:31:35

put. Neither represent these views

of the house but we, in politics,

5:31:355:31:41

have a duty to reassure our

constituents and we know that a

5:31:415:31:47

small number, less than ten, who

have sought to come to my surgery,

5:31:475:31:52

have received just that reassurance

and they have gone away knowing that

5:31:525:31:56

this government seeks to provide

them with what they need. I would

5:31:565:32:00

just end by saying, what can we do

in this house? We can do things like

5:32:005:32:06

invite the Polish ambassador to our

constituency and stand with him on a

5:32:065:32:11

platform and say this government

represents the contribution of EU

5:32:115:32:14

nationals. We want you to stay and

will deliver that deal as best we

5:32:145:32:18

can.

Mr Deputy Speaker, the

unintended consequences of leaving

5:32:185:32:25

the EU are appearing thick and fast

and restrictions on EU nationals are

5:32:255:32:31

among the most unexpected for some

folks at least. There has been some

5:32:315:32:35

talk of scaremongering today, so

here is one of my French

5:32:355:32:40

constituents who have lived in

Scotland for 24 years, and has been

5:32:405:32:43

married to a Scot for those 24 years

and they have three children

5:32:435:32:47

together. She has been refused a

residency card for not exited --

5:32:475:32:54

exercising her treaty rights. She

has maintained her home and three

5:32:545:32:58

children while her husband was in

the Marines, including tours of

5:32:585:33:01

Bosnia and Northern Ireland, they

spent he is the member of the

5:33:015:33:10

Honourable Corps, of arms, more

commonly known as the Queen's

5:33:105:33:13

bodyguard. The Home Office says that

his wife cannot prove that she can

5:33:135:33:17

support herself. Her husband's

income, the love and support she has

5:33:175:33:28

provided and the idea that she has

not been exercising her treaty

5:33:285:33:33

rights is ludicrous. I am writing to

ministers and awaiting an answer.

5:33:335:33:37

Mark Dredge Afellay made from Italy

to London as a young man nearly 30

5:33:375:33:41

years ago and built a career in the

tourism industry, including the

5:33:415:33:45

chief executive of Visit Scotland

for five years. His international

5:33:455:33:50

management company has brought

wealth into the UK, his application

5:33:505:33:55

for citizenship was refused on the

grounds that he could not prove that

5:33:555:33:58

he was a resident in the UK. This

was in spite of providing receipts

5:33:585:34:03

from HMRC which the Home Office

asked for as a proof of residence.

5:34:035:34:09

He has a wife and three children, he

never thought he had to prove he

5:34:095:34:14

lived here. If he does not match the

profile of EU citizens, this

5:34:145:34:21

government will accept, who can

match that profile? I have written

5:34:215:34:27

to ministers about this case but

they are only two examples. There is

5:34:275:34:33

a common thread running through

constituents and a whole theme is

5:34:335:34:39

the fear people have that they will

not be welcome in their home and a

5:34:395:34:43

bureaucratic decision will see them

sent from family or left without a

5:34:435:34:47

secure right to stay here.

Constituents of mine are living in

5:34:475:34:50

fear of the state. Consider that, a

modern state. A supposed democracy

5:34:505:34:54

where people live in fear of action

from the state. They are swinging in

5:34:545:35:01

the wind, as they are enthralled by

a xenophobic wing of our family and

5:35:015:35:09

a right wing antiforeigner media.

Ironic for a party stuffed with

5:35:095:35:14

people proud of their ancestry, the

Anglos, Saxons and the Normans.

Mr

5:35:145:35:22

deputy chairman and also with

ancestors stuff in the Dutch come in

5:35:225:35:28

my case. We will move swiftly on. I

welcome this debate and the chance

5:35:285:35:32

to highlight the government's

commitment to the issue. I would

5:35:325:35:36

like to welcome that we are close to

an agreement and that the Prime

5:35:365:35:44

Minister has worked hard to ensure

we are in the right place from this.

5:35:445:35:48

I welcome the chance to rise and

thank people for the contribution

5:35:485:35:52

that they make when they come to

this country and they work and they

5:35:525:35:57

work in industries where we can be

proud. They lead in the area of

5:35:575:36:02

science, in our universities, in the

building industry and our NHS. Why

5:36:025:36:06

on earth would we do not want to

encourage and promote their

5:36:065:36:13

security? And that lack of

understanding and what a negotiation

5:36:135:36:17

was by the Honourable member for

North East Fife? I have three

5:36:175:36:22

minutes, you had considerably more.

One of the points that you made was

5:36:225:36:28

that the Honourable member from

Ayrshire, her husband, a German, has

5:36:285:36:32

worked long and hard within the NHS.

But you have shown no care for those

5:36:325:36:39

people who may be British and

working abroad. This is what the

5:36:395:36:47

negotiation is about. Primarily, the

progress we have made today of the

5:36:475:36:50

60 aspects that we been discussing a

37, we are on target with this, the

5:36:505:36:56

UK has done more and that is widely

recognised, compared to the other 27

5:36:565:37:01

countries to bring this process to

where it is. It's a crucial moment

5:37:015:37:06

in these negotiations and it is

important that the processes for the

5:37:065:37:12

Minister in Great Yarmouth, what he

spoke about, that these things are

5:37:125:37:15

seamless and that they happen. HMRC,

certainly, will have a part to play,

5:37:155:37:21

whether it is the right body to take

things forward. I would like to

5:37:215:37:25

understand a little more because

they are not always as fluid and

5:37:255:37:29

operation as we would like to see

them Bayern. -- being. There is

5:37:295:37:36

progress to be made on this deal.

The citizens, the direction of

5:37:365:37:42

talks, and jobs have a crucial part

to play in that and we do not want

5:37:425:37:47

to destroy the brilliant economy

that we have, which encourages

5:37:475:37:50

people to this country. In

conclusion, we need to look after

5:37:505:37:55

not only the 3 million that we have

but the 1.2 million citizens who are

5:37:555:38:02

honourable, it is right, and clear

the negotiations are at a crucial

5:38:025:38:05

stage and we should ensure that we

stick these negotiations and get the

5:38:055:38:11

best deal for everyone involved. We

need to also ensure that we, in this

5:38:115:38:15

house, do not behave impatiently

with arrogance Bert behave with

5:38:155:38:22

behaviour that would critically

endangered the people we have... --

5:38:225:38:27

but behave with behaviour that will

not critically endangered the people

5:38:275:38:29

we have. You are talking in a way

with a stunning amount of stress.

We

5:38:295:38:38

have seen what

5:38:385:38:40

people are going through. We have

all been treated by, served by and

5:38:435:38:48

supported by EU nationals, and we

probably all have good reasons to be

5:38:485:38:52

grateful to them. In the Highlands,

our friends, neighbours and

5:38:525:38:55

colleagues, they happen to come from

other parts of Europe, this

5:38:555:39:01

uncertainty visited upon them is no

way to treat our friends. Without

5:39:015:39:06

whom, businesses face the danger in

the highlands of scaling down and

5:39:065:39:10

even having difficulties

functioning. From cradle to grave

5:39:105:39:14

they make a positive impact on

Scotland, especially in the

5:39:145:39:19

Highlands with a population growth

that is essential and without inward

5:39:195:39:24

migration, more older people,

incidentally Mr Speaker, nothing

5:39:245:39:28

wrong with older people, I've

harboured a lifelong ambition to

5:39:285:39:31

become one and I'm making good

progress! The pensions and health

5:39:315:39:38

care than they can contribute to.

Brexit free and over ten years, 90%

5:39:385:39:45

of the Scottish population's growth

is projected from migration,

5:39:455:39:49

especially in the Highlands. It's a

cold fact that without them we have

5:39:495:39:52

more deaths than births. 30% of the

Highlands and Islands population

5:39:525:39:58

live in remote areas and we need

people to help them. Young people

5:39:585:40:02

leaving means that we require EU

nationals and families in the

5:40:025:40:07

Highlands. They support our health

service. 6% of NHS clinicians are

5:40:075:40:14

from the EU. We have already

estimated that we cannot recruit all

5:40:145:40:19

of the regulated staff, doctors,

nurses, from hospitals and surgeries

5:40:195:40:22

for our future needs. The Royal

College of Nursing, as pointed out

5:40:225:40:27

earlier, have seen applications from

EU nationals collapse by 96%. It's

5:40:275:40:33

looking incredibly difficult to cope

with an ageing population and a

5:40:335:40:37

survey of communities in the care

sector, just one example pointed out

5:40:375:40:41

that those with learning

difficulties in the care sector, 170

5:40:415:40:46

out of 251 where EU nationals. Only

five were UK citizens. Whether it is

5:40:465:40:55

food, drink, tourism, the

construction industry, as we heard

5:40:555:40:59

only this morning, an unprecedented

alliance with seven of the industry

5:40:595:41:03

's major bodies coming together,

talking about the industry facing a

5:41:035:41:06

cliff edge over EU workers, and an

inability to deliver an

5:41:065:41:12

infrastructure, the National

Federation of builders and others

5:41:125:41:15

have all said that this is a

disaster. We need EU nationals, not

5:41:155:41:21

only across the UK but especially in

Scotland, and desperately in the

5:41:215:41:25

Highlands.

Mr Speaker, Mr Deputy

Speaker, EU nationals living in the

5:41:255:41:31

UK form and integral part of the

economic fabric of this country. I

5:41:315:41:36

should declare an interest. My wife

is from Stockholm and it's no

5:41:365:41:42

surprise that I am very supportive

of the principle that it should be

5:41:425:41:45

business as usual for EU nationals,

even if it means me having a quiet

5:41:455:41:49

home life! Is the right thing to do.

We've always been an open,

5:41:495:41:54

attractive and welcoming country. As

Ruth Davidson said in 2016, for

5:41:545:41:57

those who have chosen to build a

life and open a business and make a

5:41:575:42:02

contribution, I would say this is

your home and you are welcome here.

5:42:025:42:06

I associate myself fully and

unreservedly within those comments.

5:42:065:42:09

This party on the side of the house

has stood with those that, as John

5:42:095:42:13

Major said, had the guts and drive

to travel to another country

5:42:135:42:16

thousands of miles away, to work to

better themselves. We have

5:42:165:42:28

exclusively confirmed that UK does

not want anyone living legally in

5:42:285:42:31

the UK to be asked to leave because

of our exit from the EU. It is the

5:42:315:42:36

desired outcome that it will be

possible for EU citizens to be

5:42:365:42:43

treated the same. No EU national

will be treated as a second-class

5:42:435:42:47

citizen. I had to say the

scaremongering on this issue by the

5:42:475:42:52

party opposite is utterly shameful.

Putting fear into the hearts of EU

5:42:525:42:56

nationals by making false claims

about their future in this country

5:42:565:42:59

is a disgrace and they should be

ashamed. They know full well

5:42:595:43:02

discussions on the bilateral

agreement had been going on from the

5:43:025:43:05

start of the Brexit process and it

was one of the first issues

5:43:055:43:09

negotiators sought to resolve. It's

been made explicitly clear by the

5:43:095:43:13

government that they do not want

citizens used as a bargaining chip.

5:43:135:43:18

But they cannot risk our UK citizens

in the EU becoming a bargaining chip

5:43:185:43:23

either. We made progress, as

recently as October the Prime

5:43:235:43:26

Minister wrote that Brussels and our

Parliament within touching distance

5:43:265:43:32

of a deal on citizens rights and

nothing from any other European

5:43:325:43:37

leader has contradicted this,

including Michel Barnier, who has

5:43:375:43:40

agreed that an agreement on this is

close. They want to see rights

5:43:405:43:44

granted for one side at the point

when we are so close to agreeing the

5:43:445:43:48

rights for everyone. This is total

madness. Mr Deputy Speaker, EU

5:43:485:43:55

nationals are welcome and will

always be welcome in the United

5:43:555:43:58

Kingdom but I must urge members of

the SNP benches opposite to think

5:43:585:44:02

carefully about how seriously their

motion would jeopardise the chances

5:44:025:44:06

of their Scottish constituent

enjoying similar rights in the rest

5:44:065:44:08

of the EU.

5:44:085:44:17

Representing East Lothian, an

agricultural constituency that

5:44:175:44:18

relies heavily on EU workers and

also for our carer services and that

5:44:185:44:28

houses many EU workers who work in

the University sector in Queen

5:44:285:44:34

Margaret University, we have had

close relationships with Europe,

5:44:345:44:37

especially a delay. Family still

exist in our community who moved in

5:44:375:44:43

the 19th century from Tuscany when

there was an economic problem. 60%

5:44:435:44:50

of people who live in this Italian

town can say they have Scottish

5:44:505:44:57

relations. The result lack of

confidence among EU citizens about

5:44:575:45:04

this Government's intentions and I

hear a lot of cry in this chamber

5:45:045:45:09

that perhaps it is for the

Government to clarify its position.

5:45:095:45:14

The connections that exist are deep.

Is it too much to ask that our

5:45:145:45:20

neighbours, friends and workers have

the right secured and they

5:45:205:45:23

understand what their rights will

be?

Britain is undoubtedly one of

5:45:235:45:32

the most open, tolerant and

welcoming countries on earth. We

5:45:325:45:36

have seen this and EU citizens have

benefited our economy hugely and our

5:45:365:45:43

society and have brought diversity

to work towns and rural communities.

5:45:435:45:48

It has even shown that despite the

falling value of the pound, despite

5:45:485:45:52

some of the negative headlines that

came the day after the Brexit third,

5:45:525:45:58

net migration figures of a quarter

of a million paid testament to what

5:45:585:46:06

a great country this is to make your

home and this is something I get

5:46:065:46:10

from my constituents and those EU

nationals who come to see me. That

5:46:105:46:16

is why even before Article 50 was

triggered, the Prime Minister said

5:46:165:46:20

it was something we wanted to deal

with at the earliest opportunity. It

5:46:205:46:26

was the EU who stated this would not

be dealt with on top after we

5:46:265:46:30

triggered Article 50. The EU let

people in a state of limbo during

5:46:305:46:36

those months as we waited to begin

negotiations. I welcome the fact we

5:46:365:46:41

are in touching distance of this,

but I believe that as someone who

5:46:415:46:47

supported remain in the referendum,

I was disappointed with that initial

5:46:475:46:52

approach from the EU and to do so

now when we are in touching distance

5:46:525:47:00

would be a gross error to do right

now at this moment as we negotiate

5:47:005:47:07

those 1.2 million people from our

country who are making their lives

5:47:075:47:14

overseas, and anyone who thinks that

everything will be all right, there

5:47:145:47:18

will be no issue, we have to think

about some of the positions the EU

5:47:185:47:23

has taken, and member states. Spain

link access to sovereignty over

5:47:235:47:32

Gibraltar, and I remind the House we

have just gone through an event in

5:47:325:47:36

Catalonia which shows bad grace and

bad faith in that respect, so what

5:47:365:47:41

should we do? Should we hand over

everything in that respect and say

5:47:415:47:48

effectively OK, it's fine and you

can do what you wish and take

5:47:485:47:56

unilateral action and threatening,

that I think would be a grave

5:47:565:48:01

negotiating error.

We heard a lot

from the other benches about EU

5:48:015:48:15

citizens being valued but words are

cheap, and I speak to EU citizens

5:48:155:48:20

every weekend, often I will meet

somebody because they are fully

5:48:205:48:28

integrated in the community and

their partners or flatmates are

5:48:285:48:31

often British citizens, and I'm

talking about what they say to me

5:48:315:48:37

and they are genuinely upset and

feel they are being treated as

5:48:375:48:42

second-class citizens, not just by

the failure to grant them access but

5:48:425:48:47

what they are being offered. This is

a policy statement which gives

5:48:475:48:57

rights to EU citizens which are less

than they would have. We don't know

5:48:575:49:01

if that will be the final Virgin but

the fact remains that there will

5:49:015:49:06

have to be a process of application,

there will be a fee, that will apply

5:49:065:49:12

even to those who have permanent

residents already. There will be an

5:49:125:49:17

onus on those citizens that they

have to deal with and all that sends

5:49:175:49:24

out a signal that they will not have

status equal to what they have now,

5:49:245:49:31

they will have the status of eight

second-class, so what the Government

5:49:315:49:37

should do and I cannot better what

the 3 million group have said in

5:49:375:49:41

response to that, is they should

grant the same rights as now and do

5:49:415:49:51

it without a long bureaucratic

process to go through, and if they

5:49:515:49:56

don't do that, the signal they sent

to EU nationals in this country, is

5:49:565:50:05

that they are not as they should be

and people are already voting with

5:50:055:50:09

their feet and these are often

talented people who could work

5:50:095:50:16

elsewhere and if the Government

wishes them to leave the country,

5:50:165:50:21

they should be upfront about that.

By the back door they are suggesting

5:50:215:50:26

to EU citizens in this country that

they will not have the same rights

5:50:265:50:32

or be on the same basis, that they

will have checks they have to go

5:50:325:50:38

through, residents checks in order

to stay here. Why should they put up

5:50:385:50:43

with that change of attitude or

change of status? The minister

5:50:435:50:46

should say today, firstly there will

be a unilateral decision and

5:50:465:50:53

secondly it will be on the basis of

equal status to what the residents

5:50:535:50:58

have now, and if he cannot do that,

all the words he has said tonight

5:50:585:51:04

carry no weight and the value they

place on EU citizens is less than

5:51:045:51:08

they have now.

I'm proud to live in

a country where neighbourliness

5:51:085:51:15

leads us to embrace newcomers as our

own. There's something inspiring

5:51:155:51:21

about our warm embrace of citizens

from around the world and it often

5:51:215:51:26

set bed that tolerance is a British

virtue, but it's beyond that, it's

5:51:265:51:31

an warm acceptance and seven are

diversity. People from around the

5:51:315:51:39

world make a full contribution to

society, the errant economic

5:51:395:51:43

necessity. There are students and

entrepreneurs and skilled walkers,

5:51:435:51:50

and I had a privilege to lead teams

of wonderful colleagues from

5:51:505:51:55

inspiring people from across the EU

who had chosen to come here and

5:51:555:51:59

build their lives here, and every

one of those colleagues, inform with

5:51:595:52:05

other EU nationals here, are assured

of their position in our society,

5:52:055:52:11

which is as much there is as it is

mine, and that is why the priority

5:52:115:52:17

of this Government in our

negotiations with the EU was to

5:52:175:52:20

secure the status of EU citizens in

the UK and British nationals in the

5:52:205:52:26

EU, and that is what makes this

debate redundant because we have

5:52:265:52:32

received assurances from the

Minister that we are within touching

5:52:325:52:36

distance of an agreement to

safeguard these rights. The SNP

5:52:365:52:41

bring this issue up with alarming

frequency because every time they

5:52:415:52:47

do, despite 1000 assurances to the

contrary, they tell people their

5:52:475:52:51

right to stay here is at risk. Note

EU national living in the UK

5:52:515:52:57

lawfully should have any fear about

having to leave when our country

5:52:575:53:02

leaves the EU. The SNP spread fear

and panic because they think there

5:53:025:53:06

is political advantage and fear and

panic are unjustified. The

5:53:065:53:13

implication that we are plotting to

ship our friends and neighbours and

5:53:135:53:18

colleagues and partners to the

country they came from is absurd but

5:53:185:53:23

it is a narrative the SNP delight in

because absurdity is their

5:53:235:53:29

speciality. Whatever spin be put on

this, the people of Britain, the

5:53:295:53:34

family of nations and regions that

make up the UK, voted to leave the

5:53:345:53:40

EU. EU nationals are welcome here

and will continue to be welcomed. I

5:53:405:53:48

don't think the British people who

have EU nationals as friends and

5:53:485:53:53

family and neighbours would stand

for any other policy and it is

5:53:535:53:58

disreputable of the party opposite

to suggest that. I am happy this

5:53:585:54:01

House should take a lead from our

neighbours and EU National friends

5:54:015:54:06

who were under no threat whatsoever

from this Government.

I'm prepared

5:54:065:54:13

to accept the Government's stated

position that they will ensure many

5:54:135:54:18

of the EU citizens living here will

stay after this negotiation, but I

5:54:185:54:24

hope the Minister will have the

fragments to accept the facts and

5:54:245:54:29

figures that many EU nationals have

already left since the referendum

5:54:295:54:34

and that is damaging many aspects of

our society and our economy. It's

5:54:345:54:38

not wrong, and I talk to business

and local hospitals, they are all

5:54:385:54:47

worried about recruitment and people

going home.

I would briefly say that

5:54:475:54:54

net migration was 246,000 last year,

figures are up for EU nationals

5:54:545:55:00

coming to this country.

Those

figures show what's happened in the

5:55:005:55:05

past. If the minister talked to

businesses and people working in the

5:55:055:55:11

health service, he would note that

is changing significantly and

5:55:115:55:15

vertically. He is in a ridiculous

world if he thinks that is not the

5:55:155:55:20

case, so if he is going to welcome

EU nationals, first of all, those

5:55:205:55:27

job adverts that some of us are

being shown by Italian nationals and

5:55:275:55:31

German nationals where people are

advertising jobs saying only British

5:55:315:55:36

passport holders can apply, will he

ensure that the full weight of the

5:55:365:55:40

law goes against those people

putting up those adverts because

5:55:405:55:46

they are illegal, and we need to

make sure that discrimination is

5:55:465:55:50

clamped down on. I hope he will give

that assurance and tell us the

5:55:505:55:55

measures he and his colleagues will

take to prevent discrimination

5:55:555:55:59

against EU nationals. The way the

honourable gentleman from

5:55:595:56:07

Hammersmith spoke about how the

system in place would be easy and

5:56:075:56:12

welcoming and not difficult and

expensive, so here is a concrete

5:56:125:56:16

case, and EU national with permanent

residency here who applied and paid

5:56:165:56:22

for that, the Government asked them

to apply again for settled status.

5:56:225:56:27

Will he say they will not be charged

for that? Having paid for a

5:56:275:56:31

permanent residency, will he say

they will not be charged for having

5:56:315:56:36

to apply again for settled status?

And went and EU nationals cannot

5:56:365:56:41

prove that and is given temporary

status, when they then apply for

5:56:415:56:48

permanent settled status in five

years, will they have to pay for

5:56:485:56:51

that again? I hope you will make it

clear that they will not. I hope he

5:56:515:56:58

will make it clear that the

registration process will be simple

5:56:585:57:01

and easy. Will he take up the ideas

from the 3 million group that in

5:57:015:57:07

order to register people will have

to prove they lived here for five

5:57:075:57:10

years and have identity. That would

be correct and bureaucratic and I

5:57:105:57:16

hope he will commit to that from

dispatch box. -- and not

5:57:165:57:22

bureaucratic. I hope he will

reassure people about how

5:57:225:57:27

negotiations are going on family

reunion. This is one thing the group

5:57:275:57:31

are most worried about because they

see the Government is taking away

5:57:315:57:36

rights they had for their relatives

to bring them here. Can I end by

5:57:365:57:42

referring to the views of the 3

million group? They have set them

5:57:425:57:47

out in detail and they say they

believe the settled status proposal

5:57:475:57:51

being put forward by the UK is not

fit for purpose and should be

5:57:515:57:58

regretted and they set out an

alternative. They are worried

5:57:585:58:02

because they do not trust the Home

Office. Many of them have worked

5:58:025:58:07

with the Home Office, they feel it

is slow and makes mistakes and is

5:58:075:58:12

unreliable and they don't want to

have to go through the process of

5:58:125:58:16

other people have suffered in the

past.

The UK Government recognises

5:58:165:58:23

the necessity to address uncertainty

and to that affect the Prime

5:58:235:58:27

Minister has committed to

maintaining EU citizens' writes.

5:58:275:58:33

Many members have risen on the side

to make clear, as the Minister has.

5:58:335:58:38

I declare an interest as a farmer

and a food processor, as the

5:58:385:58:45

honourable member said with

broccoli, it is important for EU

5:58:455:58:49

workers to us. Members opposite do

not have a monopoly on this. EU

5:58:495:58:57

nationals are important to

honourable members, M from Buchan,

5:58:575:59:01

Boston and Skegness, and foreign

nationals are important to the oil

5:59:015:59:06

industry. Constituencies like West

Aberdeenshire and businesses I speak

5:59:065:59:13

to contrast with the experience to

the right honourable member for

5:59:135:59:18

Kingston. They are relatively

positive. Members should do their

5:59:185:59:24

utmost to reassure our people who

are still anxious about their status

5:59:245:59:30

but they are still entitled to stay

here. We should now do everything in

5:59:305:59:35

our power to ensure what is

enshrined in UK law regarding the

5:59:355:59:41

rights of EU citizens living and

working here is integrated into law

5:59:415:59:48

regarding citizens living and

working in EU countries. Those UK

5:59:485:59:53

nationals based abroad deserve

certainty as much as EU citizens

5:59:535:59:57

here and export to an agreement.

5:59:576:00:03

Thank you very much, Mr Deputy

Speaker. I'm pleased to be able to

6:00:036:00:08

sum up in this debate. They hope the

house will forgive me, we do not

6:00:086:00:12

have enough time to go through all

of the constituencies but it is a

6:00:126:00:16

lie to the myth that the SNP I never

interested in talking about anything

6:00:166:00:19

important. Both debates could easily

have gone on for four or five hours

6:00:196:00:27

each. But Mr Deputy Speaker, I'd

like to pick up on the main themes

6:00:276:00:30

from both sides of the debate.

Firstly, let me draw attention to

6:00:306:00:34

this document from the house in a

few days ago. It does not list the

6:00:346:00:42

entire contribution, there are only

39 pages, it's an extremely brief

6:00:426:00:47

summary but the follow-up to that

stage, the Scottish Government

6:00:476:00:50

believes that continuing free

movement of people is in the best

6:00:506:00:55

interests of Scotland and the United

Kingdom as a whole. What a shame.

6:00:556:01:00

What a disgrace that the United

Kingdom government refuses point

6:01:006:01:04

blank to accept that because, Mr

Deputy Speaker, when there's a

6:01:046:01:10

referendum on leaving the EU, there

has been no referendum on the

6:01:106:01:14

movement of three people or the

single market and can in some

6:01:146:01:19

countries, 62%, including those in

the local authority, and 62% of

6:01:196:01:25

people in one country in this union

voted to remain in the EU. A lot of

6:01:256:01:33

very specific and individual cases

raised on this side of the house,

6:01:336:01:36

there's no doubt they could have

been many more, had there been time

6:01:366:01:39

and a great many more do not want to

be identified for various reasons.

6:01:396:01:43

One of the interventions asked for

the reassurance, but missed the

6:01:436:01:50

point completely. Its 3 million

other people outside of this chamber

6:01:506:01:54

who need to understand and get

assurances, and they are simply not

6:01:546:01:58

reassured. From the benches

opposite, the SNP are

6:01:586:02:03

scaremongering. Scottish

Conservative members of Parliament

6:02:036:02:06

are accusing Scottish National Party

members of Parliament of

6:02:066:02:09

scaremongering about the results and

consequences of a referendum. You

6:02:096:02:14

could not make it up! And another

major theme from across the house is

6:02:146:02:20

that the government really do

generally care for the rise of EU

6:02:206:02:24

nationals living in the UK.

Question... Why then did it take

6:02:246:02:30

nine months after the referendum and

a full-scale select committee

6:02:306:02:33

enquiry before the government

realised that their system for

6:02:336:02:38

allowing EU nationals to stay here

permanently was ultimately unfit to

6:02:386:02:44

purpose and the views of those one

and a half million people, it was

6:02:446:02:48

clearly designed to deter people

from applying for a permanent right

6:02:486:02:53

to stay. Are they the actions of a

government Deputy Speaker who cared

6:02:536:02:57

that much? It's in the report and at

a time where we offered an

6:02:576:03:01

intervention, you can tell me that

they have read the report? Quite

6:03:016:03:05

clearly, they have not because we

cannot give unilateral guarantees

6:03:056:03:11

because it would prejudice the

position of the 3 million UK

6:03:116:03:14

citizens in the EU, if members

opposite had bothered to read the

6:03:146:03:18

report, which they hinted at,

paragraph 43, this view was shared

6:03:186:03:24

by UK nationals living in other EU

countries. UK citizens, from whom

6:03:246:03:28

they took advice, resident in

France, Spain and Belgium, agreed

6:03:286:03:34

that the United Kingdom should make

an offer. And Mr Deputy Speaker, for

6:03:346:03:41

anyone on the benches opposite, who

turned up for the debate on the 12th

6:03:416:03:48

of September 2017, they had a chance

to debate the plight of UK nationals

6:03:486:03:52

living in the EU. I do not need to

bother because one Conservative

6:03:526:03:55

backbencher turned up to speak in

this debate. Even he wasn't able to

6:03:556:04:02

stay until then. The minister was

the only Conservative member in the

6:04:026:04:06

Westminster Hall at the conclusion

of that debate and if they bothered

6:04:066:04:10

to read the report, certainly if the

honourable member for Aberdeenshire,

6:04:106:04:16

could describe the recommendations

and those recommendations were

6:04:166:04:24

unanimous. They would have known

that membership for the committee at

6:04:246:04:27

the time before the last general

election contained a majority of

6:04:276:04:31

Conservative MPs. Madness! They may

even have recognised the names, so

6:04:316:04:41

many responsible for that unanimous

act of madness as one of them is now

6:04:416:04:45

the Secretary of State for the

environment. And one of them is the

6:04:456:04:49

Secretary of State for Justice...

So, Mr Deputy Speaker, if he wants

6:04:496:04:53

to tell them that they are mad, then

you can say goodbye to his political

6:04:536:04:57

career! Before it has even started

but Mr Deputy Speaker, British

6:04:576:05:04

citizens living abroad once the

house to agree on this resolution

6:05:046:05:09

tonight because they believe it's in

their best interests for the UK to

6:05:096:05:13

make the first move but I will

finish with this... When the

6:05:136:05:17

honourable gentleman for Manchester

used the phrase bargaining chips

6:05:176:05:22

which came from government

ministers, initially and not from

6:05:226:05:25

us, what do you call them, Mr Deputy

Speaker, when they say they cannot

6:05:256:05:31

do this because if we do this, it

makes it less likely that these

6:05:316:05:36

people will do that, which we also

want them to do. It's a negotiation

6:05:366:05:40

tactic, Mr Deputy Speaker. And what

is called A and B? They are

6:05:406:05:50

bargaining chips. You may not like

the language, that the international

6:05:506:05:55

trade Secretary chose to use but if

the government refuses to accept

6:05:556:05:58

this mission tonight, if the reason

is because they want to be able to

6:05:586:06:04

use the uncertainty that they have

in the minds of EU nationals here to

6:06:046:06:07

get certainty in the minds of UK

nationals living abroad, not only

6:06:076:06:12

are they going against the unanimous

views of a group that included a lot

6:06:126:06:17

of their own MPs, not only are they

undermining the wish of those 3

6:06:176:06:23

million people living in mainland

Europe, but they are continuing to

6:06:236:06:28

use all 4.5 billion as bargaining

chips. They don't like to hear that,

6:06:286:06:33

Mr Deputy Speaker but the only way

they can stop that is to stop them

6:06:336:06:39

being bargaining chips but give

unilateral guarantees that everybody

6:06:396:06:46

desperately wants to hear.

Thank

you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I would like

6:06:466:06:56

to thank the Right Honourable and

honourable members across the house

6:06:566:07:00

who participated in the debate this

evening. On this very important

6:07:006:07:04

issue of safeguarding the rights of

EU citizens living here, in the UK,

6:07:046:07:09

and also the rights of UK citizens

living in the European Union after

6:07:096:07:15

our withdrawal. I am glad that

Parliament has had the chance to

6:07:156:07:20

debate this issue again because I

hope we will reach clarity at the

6:07:206:07:25

end of the debate today. I've heard

very many members opposite describe

6:07:256:07:32

the worries and concerns of

constituents and the alleged

6:07:326:07:37

uncertainty that people feel that

they are living under. May I please

6:07:376:07:42

take this opportunity to clarify the

situation, and I hope that the

6:07:426:07:47

members opposite, who are clearly

concerned about their constituents,

6:07:476:07:51

that they will do the responsible

thing and the next time a

6:07:516:07:55

constituent comes into their surgery

with concerns about this issue, that

6:07:556:08:00

they will reiterate the government

position and it is as follows. Those

6:08:006:08:07

European citizens, I would be

grateful if members opposite could

6:08:076:08:11

give me a moment to say there so

they can understand this, and so

6:08:116:08:16

that their constituents can hear it

as well. Those European citizens and

6:08:166:08:19

family members worried about their

status year have the government's

6:08:196:08:23

complete assurance that we want them

to stay and that they continue to be

6:08:236:08:30

welcome in the United Kingdom. I

would ask please, if I may just

6:08:306:08:36

finish, I would ask please that that

position is clarified when

6:08:366:08:45

constituents go into the honourable

member 's surgeries, because I fear

6:08:456:08:50

that it is that misunderstanding

which, I think some members opposite

6:08:506:08:55

are perhaps labouring under. It is

that misunderstanding that may be

6:08:556:08:59

contributing to our concern. I will

take one intervention as I am

6:08:596:09:03

conscious of time.

I think the

Minister may misunderstand, the

6:09:036:09:10

response was in response to letters

constituents received from the

6:09:106:09:14

government.

Forgive me, the concerns

that were raised, and I know that

6:09:146:09:20

individual cases were raised and I

hope very much that they are chasing

6:09:206:09:24

up those letters, if they have not

received responses to them as of

6:09:246:09:29

yet, but the concerns, honourable

member is no that assurances given

6:09:296:09:37

today at the dispatch box, I hope

that the honourable members can

6:09:376:09:41

communicate that to their

constituents while they are waiting

6:09:416:09:44

to hear responses from the Home

Office. Another point of

6:09:446:09:49

clarification, if I may, for the

right honourable member for Kingston

6:09:496:09:52

and Surbiton, I can give the

reassurance that the discrimination

6:09:526:09:57

that he has described in job

adverts, that is wrong. The

6:09:576:10:01

government will continue to crack

down on any such discrimination.

6:10:016:10:05

But, if I may move to contributions

made by my honourable friends in

6:10:056:10:10

this debate, we have heard from the

honourable members for Bannff and

6:10:106:10:18

Buchan, West Aberdeenshire and

Kincardine, Bury St Edmunds,

6:10:186:10:21

Solihull, Stirling and Gordon, all

of whom have represented the views

6:10:216:10:25

of their constituents and some

represent Leave voting

6:10:256:10:29

constituencies but I must say

special mention for my honourable

6:10:296:10:33

friend and Lincolnshire neighbour,

the honourable member for Boston

6:10:336:10:35

Skegness who has the honour of

representing one of the most

6:10:356:10:42

populated positions, constituencies,

in the country with Eastern European

6:10:426:10:48

's and he set out for a gusty, I

think, the views of his

6:10:486:10:52

constituents. Both broad and bred

yellow bellies but those with the

6:10:526:10:56

good sense to move to his

constituency from the European

6:10:566:11:02

Union. Since the result of the

referendum last summer, the

6:11:026:11:06

government has made it absolutely

clear how important it is that we

6:11:066:11:11

secure their status here and as soon

as possible. It's the Prime

6:11:116:11:16

Minister's first priority in these

negotiations. The Prime Minister set

6:11:166:11:19

this out in her open letter to EU

citizens, and the right to settled

6:11:196:11:25

status will be divined McCrickard

defined in the withdrawal agreement

6:11:256:11:31

which will be implemented in UK

legislation. On negotiations, the

6:11:316:11:36

government wants to offer assurance

that we are now close to reaching an

6:11:366:11:40

agreement on citizens rights.

They're rarely remains a small

6:11:406:11:45

number of outstanding issues, to be

agreed with our European partners.

6:11:456:11:49

The focus over the coming weeks will

be on delivering an agreement that

6:11:496:11:53

works for EU citizens living here,

and the UK nationals living in the

6:11:536:11:58

EU. The fact remains that there must

be agreement with the European Union

6:11:586:12:05

on this matter. We cannot just wish

it away. Taking unilateral positions

6:12:056:12:11

at this vital stage in the

negotiations would risk the position

6:12:116:12:15

of United Kingdom nationals who have

also chosen to build their lives,

6:12:156:12:20

who have also chosen to build their

lives with their families in other

6:12:206:12:27

countries. It would not be

responsible for this government to

6:12:276:12:30

ignore them and to enter into the

unilateral agreements urged upon us

6:12:306:12:38

by the Scottish Nationalists. In

conclusion, Mr Deputy Speaker, the

6:12:386:12:44

government would like to reassure

European Union citizens across the

6:12:446:12:48

United Kingdom, that we are

confident of reaching a deal that

6:12:486:12:52

will enable them to carry on with

their lives as before. As the Prime

6:12:526:12:57

Minister has said clear -- made

clear, no EU citizen living lawfully

6:12:576:13:03

in the UK will be required to leave

when the United Kingdom withdraws

6:13:036:13:08

from the European Union. We

recognise and value the huge

6:13:086:13:12

contribution EU citizens make to our

economy, to our health service,

6:13:126:13:17

schools and care sector and to our

communities. We will act fairly to

6:13:176:13:23

them, just as we expect other EU

countries to act fairly towards

6:13:236:13:27

United Kingdom nationals living

there. Safeguarding the rights of

6:13:276:13:34

citizens is a shared priority for

both sides in these negotiations,

6:13:346:13:39

and a reciprocal agreement that

works for all of our citizens is now

6:13:396:13:43

within touching distance. Thank you.

Pramac the question is as on the

6:13:436:13:51

order paper, as many of the opinion

say aye... The aye Brawn habit.

6:13:516:14:07

I wonder if I can seek your

guidance. This House has now agreed

6:14:076:14:11

there should be at unilateral

decision to safeguard the rights of

6:14:116:14:16

EU nationals. When will the Home

Secretary come in front of the House

6:14:166:14:22

to deliver this?

I think you have

been given is the instruction

6:14:226:14:29

earlier but for the record, the

Leader of the House has made clear

6:14:296:14:38

the Government are determined to

listen and take account of use from

6:14:386:14:42

all sides, read there is an

opportunity for the Government to

6:14:426:14:48

listen and better enable, we will do

so, so I am updating the House on

6:14:486:14:53

the Government's approach to

Opposition Day debates went a debate

6:14:536:14:59

has been tabled by opposition

parties. The relevant Minister will

6:14:596:15:04

make a statement no more than 12

weeks after the debate, to allow

6:15:046:15:09

thoughtful consideration of the

points raised, facilitating

6:15:096:15:14

collective discussion across

government and to outline any

6:15:146:15:17

actions that are being taken. This

is the line, with suggestions made

6:15:176:15:24

by members across the House and I

hope colleagues will welcome the new

6:15:246:15:30

opportunity for accountability this

provides. That is the instruction

6:15:306:15:35

that happens after division.

Point

of order. Given that explanation

6:15:356:15:42

from the Leader of the House, will

it now be known as the Leadsom

6:15:426:15:52

principal?

The question is this

House do now adjourn. Drew Hendry.

6:15:526:16:02

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I've

raised the issue of Universal Credit

6:16:026:16:08

in this place many times over the

issues faced by my constituents and

6:16:086:16:12

others. This debate is about

Universal Credit and its affect on

6:16:126:16:21

the terminally ill. This has been

one of the most humbling experiences

6:16:216:16:28

of my parliamentary career so far,

preparing for this, and I would like

6:16:286:16:35

to pay tribute to Marie Curie, to

the Macmillan Highland Citizens'

6:16:356:16:42

Advice bureau partnership and to the

MND Association for their input but

6:16:426:16:49

especially to those terminally El

claimants who have come forward with

6:16:496:16:55

their stories of the issues they

face, stories of delays, of

6:16:556:17:02

difficulties, the deficits they face

as disabled people. The complexities

6:17:026:17:08

and frustrations that confront them.

The humiliations and dignity they

6:17:086:17:12

have to suffer and please, Mr Deputy

Speaker, are very simple things, for

6:17:126:17:19

this Government to fix. Some, at

little or no cost to the Government,

6:17:196:17:31

and if the Chancellor is sincere in

what he said during the budget, that

6:17:316:17:36

he wanted a civilised and tolerant

place that cares for the vulnerable,

6:17:366:17:41

you will take on board the

representations I am making on

6:17:416:17:44

behalf of those agencies and the

terminally held tonight. I will give

6:17:446:17:49

way.

I thank him for giving way and

congratulate him on securing this

6:17:496:17:57

debate and commend them for the work

he has done in highlighting problems

6:17:576:18:04

with Universal Credit. The

Chancellor's budget was an admission

6:18:046:18:09

that Universal Credit was failing

some of the people he mentions. Does

6:18:096:18:13

he think the Government needs to

address the real issues at the heart

6:18:136:18:17

of Universal Credit?

Absolutely, we

all accepted the principle of a

6:18:176:18:24

simple benefit and the move to a

single payment at that

6:18:246:18:29

simplification doesn't work if it's

not simple for users, if it becomes

6:18:296:18:34

complex, which is what we have, and

as my honourable friend pointed out,

6:18:346:18:41

I have been raising issues around

Universal Credit since 2013 as the

6:18:416:18:47

then leader of Highland Council when

we took it through the pilot onto

6:18:476:18:51

live service and then finally on to

full service roll-out. In that time

6:18:516:18:57

we have reported the problems thrown

up by this. None of it, until recent

6:18:576:19:03

weeks, has been taken on board, and

as my honourable friend has pointed

6:19:036:19:08

out, we have seen a grudging

admission from the Government that

6:19:086:19:12

there are problems, and the Minister

has a chance tonight to fix some of

6:19:126:19:18

the other areas where it is broken.

Prior to Universal Credit being

6:19:186:19:24

introduced, personal independence

payments had a specified line to

6:19:246:19:27

call for those who work terminally

ill. Claimants had their payments

6:19:276:19:33

processed quickly, they could be

made weekly, implicit consent was

6:19:336:19:40

available, giving supporting

organisations the authority to make

6:19:406:19:43

claims on behalf of a terminally ill

claimant. Many terminally ill people

6:19:436:19:48

did not want to be told if they are

dying. This payment allowed them

6:19:486:19:56

some consideration and dignity.

I

think the honourable gentleman for

6:19:566:20:04

asking for the intervention, but

also for bringing this matter to the

6:20:046:20:09

House. Would you agree that in the

same way that PLA had special rules

6:20:096:20:15

for the terminally ill, there has to

be compassionate grounds in

6:20:156:20:19

Universal Credit that can be adapted

to individual circumstances because

6:20:196:20:26

each person has circumstances

specific to themselves.

I would like

6:20:266:20:31

to underline that further. In my

part I held a universal problem

6:20:316:20:36

summit to challenge the accusations

coming from those benches about

6:20:366:20:42

scaremongering and I invited every

story MP and indeed the price

6:20:426:20:48

Minister to come to Inverness to

hear testimony from agencies and

6:20:486:20:54

claimants about the problems of

Universal Credit. Had they attended,

6:20:546:20:58

they would have heard from the case

worker at the Highland Macmillan

6:20:586:21:04

Citizens' Advice bureau partnership,

who has been dealing with Universal

6:21:046:21:09

Credit cases for cancer patients and

the terminally ill. She describes

6:21:096:21:15

herself as, through the number of

claimants and the difficulties she

6:21:156:21:18

is having, as battle weary and

non-with the number and type of

6:21:186:21:25

claims coming forward, the fact

people are dying before their claims

6:21:256:21:29

are processed. She talked about a

claimant diagnosed with cancer, not

6:21:296:21:35

knowing the outcome of her claim,

with no support for six weeks, but

6:21:356:21:41

it took three months to get payment

and when it came through it was

6:21:416:21:47

wrong, and a £500 deduction was made

for another benefit that was never

6:21:476:21:51

even claimed. Another claimant

misted deadline, her blue badge was

6:21:516:21:59

lost and her mum's carer 's

allowance was taken away and it was

6:21:596:22:03

hard to sort that out. Go one's dad

was told there was nothing more that

6:22:036:22:10

doctors could do in April 2016. He

received two points, eight points

6:22:106:22:16

are needed for the standard rate.

The rules suggested the probability

6:22:166:22:22

of dying could be expected within

six months, then the claimant could

6:22:226:22:26

apply under special rules, but with

the doctor saying it could be a

6:22:266:22:31

month or a year, it was unclear

whether these rules would be an

6:22:316:22:36

option as doctors could not say

whether death was likely in six

6:22:366:22:39

months. Imagine that discussion.

21's dad and the family had not come

6:22:396:22:49

to terms with her prognosis so

couldn't claim under the special

6:22:496:22:52

rules. The process was difficult and

stressful as the special rules

6:22:526:22:59

option was not available and the

application had to be handled in an

6:22:596:23:03

usual way and the mobility card was

taken away, leaving 21's dad unable

6:23:036:23:10

to attend medical appointments or

get shopping due to the rural

6:23:106:23:13

location. Joanne also sat in

face-to-face assessments with her

6:23:136:23:20

dad and described the experience as

awful, saying, they pushed my dad

6:23:206:23:25

until he gave the answer they

wanted. When asked if he could walk

6:23:256:23:30

50 yards he said no, so he was asked

again if he could do it even if it

6:23:306:23:36

would take a long time. When he

again said no, he was told if it was

6:23:366:23:42

an emergency and he had to walk it,

could he do it, so he felt so

6:23:426:23:48

pressurised that he said yes. The

overview said he could reasonably

6:23:486:23:52

walk 50 yards. The assessment

process is humiliating and

6:23:526:23:59

degrading, putting claimants in the

position where they often feel bad

6:23:596:24:03

about not being able to carry out

certain tasks and even asking for

6:24:036:24:08

additional assistance in the form of

benefits. I hope no one here for

6:24:086:24:14

watching is ever faced with being

diagnosed with cancer or motor

6:24:146:24:18

neurone disease or any other

terminal illness, yet it happens

6:24:186:24:23

every day and it must be shattering,

not only for those diagnosed but for

6:24:236:24:29

their families. I imagine the last

thing on their minds would be going

6:24:296:24:35

through the hoops to get the basic

financial support that they need,

6:24:356:24:40

yet that is what Universal Credit in

its current form means. I mentioned

6:24:406:24:46

the MND Association, they put fraud

the proposition that this is a

6:24:466:24:53

devastating and fatal disease, which

goes through the brain and central

6:24:536:25:00

nervous system, leaving people

trapped in a failing body, unable to

6:25:006:25:05

move, walk, talk or swallow and

eventually breathe. It kills one

6:25:056:25:09

third of people in the first year

and more than half within two years.

6:25:096:25:14

A small number survived longer.

People with MND and other terminal

6:25:146:25:21

illnesses face significant financial

burdens with the estimate being put

6:25:216:25:26

at a cost of an extra £12,000 per

year. Universal Credit needs to work

6:25:266:25:32

smoothly for the terminally ill. If

it doesn't, when it doesn't and

6:25:326:25:42

Universal Credit doesn't, there is

nothing like it for causing stress.

6:25:426:25:49

They shouldn't need to suffer

delays, stress and a financial

6:25:496:25:54

burden is the last thing they should

be asked to face. It should be easy

6:25:546:25:59

but not everyone can use the online

portal. Many cannot type. Completing

6:25:596:26:07

an online application described by

those assisting as arduous,

6:26:076:26:12

time-consuming and often requiring

help, yet this help is only

6:26:126:26:17

available by telephone,

inappropriate for anyone who was

6:26:176:26:19

unable to speak. The severe

disability premium has been

6:26:196:26:25

abolished under Universal Credit,

costing disabled adults £22 a week.

6:26:256:26:37

The enhanced disability premium was

abolished under Universal Credit,

6:26:376:26:44

costing disabled adults £15.90 a

week. The stipulation that claimants

6:26:446:26:49

could only apply under special rules

if death could be expected in six

6:26:496:26:56

months does not work for many with

terminal illness. Health

6:26:566:27:01

professionals are often confused

about whether they should sign the

6:27:016:27:05

form. This means people often don't

get the swift support they badly

6:27:056:27:11

need and whether or not people are

applying under special rules, there

6:27:116:27:16

is no journey specific to claimants

with vulnerabilities, especially the

6:27:166:27:25

ternary L, so these questions are

all work focused interviews and that

6:27:256:27:34

is clearly insensitive. Some people

do not want their doctor to tell

6:27:346:27:39

them they are dying and it is cruel

to ask them to self certify their

6:27:396:27:46

fate, cruel and unnecessary, so I

would ask the Minister Sam asks that

6:27:466:27:51

I believe he can agree to given the

relatively low number of terminally

6:27:516:27:57

ill claimants and these would be

either low or no cost. Port

6:27:576:28:01

terminally ill people, remove the

waiting time. It should not be

6:28:016:28:06

there. Make the application simpler.

It should be easy to do that for

6:28:066:28:14

this limited number of people.

Provide direct support or give

6:28:146:28:21

implicit consent for agencies to do

that on the behalf of claimants.

6:28:216:28:27

Reinstate the severe disability

allowance for terminally ill people,

6:28:276:28:32

and the enhanced disability premium.

Provide a specific journey for the

6:28:326:28:38

terminally ill and special rules.

Allow the DS 1500 to be submitted

6:28:386:28:45

without explicit consent, with the

explicit consent for third parties,

6:28:456:28:54

and finally, and most easily to get

rid of the cruel requirement for

6:28:546:28:58

self certification.

Thank you, Mr

Deputy Speaker, and I congratulate

6:28:586:29:08

the honourable gentleman for

securing this debate on this

6:29:086:29:16

important aspect. These are very

difficult situations we are

6:29:166:29:23

discussing and we must treat them

with the highest level of

6:29:236:29:26

sensitivity. If I may, I will first

set out the recently announced

6:29:266:29:33

changes to Universal Credit, which

apply across all recipients, and

6:29:336:29:39

then address specific points the

honourable member has made.

6:29:396:29:45

We continue to roll out Universal

Credit gradually, constantly

6:29:456:29:48

improving the way the system works

as we do and I'm sure honourable and

6:29:486:29:52

right honourable member is across

the house will welcome the changes

6:29:526:29:56

to Universal Credit my right

honourable friend, the Secretary of

6:29:566:30:00

State for Work and Pensions

announced in his statement to the

6:30:006:30:03

house last Thursday. Next month new

guidance will be issued to staff to

6:30:036:30:05

ensure that claimants in the private

rented sector who have housing

6:30:056:30:11

payments directly to landlords will

have that option for Universal

6:30:116:30:15

Credit. From January we make two

changes to advances, first the

6:30:156:30:20

period in which advances is

recovered will be from six to 12

6:30:206:30:25

months making it easier for

claimants to manage finances, that

6:30:256:30:28

will apply regardless to the level

of advance claimed. And secondly we

6:30:286:30:33

are increasing the amounts of

support a claimant can receive

6:30:336:30:35

through that from up to 50% of their

estimated entitlement to up to 100%,

6:30:356:30:42

which is interest-free. If someone

is in immediate need we can fast

6:30:426:30:46

track payments then they will

receive them on the same day. In

6:30:466:30:48

practice it means new claimants in

December could already receive an

6:30:486:30:54

advance of up to 50% of their

estimated overall entitlement and

6:30:546:30:59

they receive a second advance to

take it up to 100% in the New Year.

6:30:596:31:04

Taken with the first scheduled

payment, that means that claimants

6:31:046:31:08

in need could receive nearly double

the amount in cash they previously

6:31:086:31:13

received over that period. In

addition, from spring next year we

6:31:136:31:16

would make it possible to apply

online for an increase in

6:31:166:31:22

accessibility for those who need it

and in February and we will remove

6:31:226:31:26

the seven-day waiting period,

reducing the length of time

6:31:266:31:29

claimants will wait to receive their

first full payment. For new

6:31:296:31:34

claimants already receiving support

towards their housing costs, we will

6:31:346:31:37

provide an additional payment of two

weeks of their housing benefits to

6:31:376:31:41

support them as they transition to

Universal Credit, helping to address

6:31:416:31:46

the issue of rent arrears for those

who most needed. It's important that

6:31:466:31:55

I explain that the Personal

Independence Payments, PIP, is a

6:31:556:31:57

separate payment to Universal Credit

and will continue to be paid weekly

6:31:576:32:04

in advance to provide important

financial support to help meet the

6:32:046:32:10

additional costs of disability for

those in the latter stages of their

6:32:106:32:15

life. PIP is not taken into account

when assessing entitlement to

6:32:156:32:20

Universal Credit. To be clear, PIP

is not the benefit replaced by

6:32:206:32:25

Universal Credit. PIP and Universal

Credit are not comparable as they

6:32:256:32:31

are not intended for the same thing.

Income related ESA, employment

6:32:316:32:37

support allowance, and the link to

disability premiums, including

6:32:376:32:41

severe disability premiums, are

being replaced by Universal Credit

6:32:416:32:45

as part of the process of

simplifying the benefits processes

6:32:456:32:49

and helping to address overlaps.

Universal Credit has two disability

6:32:496:32:54

elements for adults to mirror the

design of ESA and the higher rate is

6:32:546:33:00

at a substantially higher level than

the equivalent support group level

6:33:006:33:05

in ESA. And by structuring the rate

in this way, the government has made

6:33:056:33:10

clear it is not looking to make

savings. Transitional protection

6:33:106:33:14

will also be provided for claimants

who move on to Universal Credit as a

6:33:146:33:18

result of DWP, if they haven't had a

change of circumstances. Madam

6:33:186:33:28

Deputy Speaker, we will continue to

listen and act on feedback as we

6:33:286:33:34

roll out Universal Credit and I

regret to say that in any benefit

6:33:346:33:38

system, mistakes can be made. As I

say it is a matter of regret but

6:33:386:33:43

when errors happen, I am sorry. We

recognise of course that people with

6:33:436:33:47

health conditions or disabilities

face extra challenges in their

6:33:476:33:53

lives. People who may be dealing

with more than one condition of

6:33:536:33:58

disability at any time and the same

conditions can, of course, affect

6:33:586:34:02

different people in different ways.

If the Minister would allow me to

6:34:026:34:11

intervene, I would like to clarify

if he will take on board some of the

6:34:116:34:14

specific points that I raised, that

were easy to do and would cost

6:34:146:34:18

nothing specifically. The issues

around self certification, that

6:34:186:34:23

there were other points in there. I

made which are very easy to deliver.

6:34:236:34:28

Would he consider of those?

Mr

Deputy Speaker, if he would allow me

6:34:286:34:34

to go on, as we roll out Universal

Credit we are committed to ensuring

6:34:346:34:41

that terminally ill patients are

treated with the utmost sensitivity

6:34:416:34:46

and receive the support that they

need to make a claim to Universal

6:34:466:34:49

Credit. It may be helpful if I

briefly set out to the house how the

6:34:496:34:54

claim process works in the legacy

benefit system. In that system, it

6:34:546:34:59

additional financial support can be

obtained by someone who is

6:34:596:35:04

terminally ill and this is a manual

process that requires an application

6:35:046:35:10

through a telephone call or a

paper-based form. As part of the

6:35:106:35:14

process, the claimant is asked if

they would like to apply for the

6:35:146:35:19

employment and support allowance,

and that is someone with a terminal

6:35:196:35:29

illness with less than six months

prognosis. They are asked to provide

6:35:296:35:34

evidence from a GP or medical

practitioner confirming this and if

6:35:346:35:38

they have already provided medical

evidence to another part of DWP, the

6:35:386:35:42

Department will confirm this and

make a referral to an expedited work

6:35:426:35:47

capability assessor which is

entirely clerical, a review of

6:35:476:35:52

papers. The health care professional

will provide a report within 48

6:35:526:35:56

hours referring to the claimants

prognosis who can provide financial

6:35:566:36:04

support by referring the claimant to

the support group. Universal Credit

6:36:046:36:09

full service is designed to be

accessed and claimed for online but

6:36:096:36:12

a claim can be made over the phone

or a home visit can be arranged if

6:36:126:36:18

needed, Universal Credit has a

similar process in place to support

6:36:186:36:22

claimants when they have been

diagnosed as terminally ill and to

6:36:226:36:26

make sure that additional support is

provided as quickly as possible. I

6:36:266:36:31

am aware of the concerns raised by

the honourable gentleman about the

6:36:316:36:36

process of notifying DWP about a

claimant's terminal illness but I do

6:36:366:36:40

not need to change the consent rules

of Universal Credit to support these

6:36:406:36:44

claimants. We can already accept

information directly from claimant

6:36:446:36:49

representatives such as claimant

appointees and third-party

6:36:496:36:52

organisations representing the

claimant. However we are also aware

6:36:526:36:58

that there are instances where it is

not happening as intended in some

6:36:586:37:02

circumstances, and we are working

hard to ensure the system works

6:37:026:37:08

properly, and that all necessary

guidance and procedures are in place

6:37:086:37:11

to support terminally ill claimants

and help operational staff to assist

6:37:116:37:15

them. As part of the training that

our staff receive, they are made

6:37:156:37:20

aware that claimants may not know

their prognosis and condition and

6:37:206:37:24

should not be recording or repairing

to the nature or detail of their

6:37:246:37:28

condition on the full-service

journal or in discussions unless

6:37:286:37:32

requested by the claimant. Our

approach is, and always has been,

6:37:326:37:37

that we insure terminally ill

claimants are treated sensitively

6:37:376:37:40

and with empathy at all times. When

a claim is made to Universal Credit

6:37:406:37:45

with a claimant who is Tam Dalyell,

we want to ensure that the claimants

6:37:456:37:51

receive any eligible additional

financial support as quickly as

6:37:516:37:54

possible. To make sure this happens

quickly, the claimant may have a

6:37:546:38:02

terminal illness. We have always

made this with ESA claimants be

6:38:026:38:06

using terminology of special rules

that you mention, I must stress that

6:38:066:38:11

the two questions are the same, but

we change the wording to make it

6:38:116:38:16

clear to the individual that people

who want to get the support to which

6:38:166:38:21

they are entitled and which they

need, this is with new and existing

6:38:216:38:26

claims and a change of

circumstances. Where somebody

6:38:266:38:30

presents with such an illness, they

are given the option of continuing

6:38:306:38:35

with providing further information

themselves or receiving support from

6:38:356:38:39

the DWP to do this. Where they

indicate they would like support, it

6:38:396:38:42

becomes a high priority task for the

case manager to telephone the

6:38:426:38:49

claimant to complete the information

gathered on their behalf, a home

6:38:496:38:52

visit can also be arranged. The most

unusual evidences by providing the

6:38:526:39:00

form that the honourable gentleman

reference, issued for DWP by a

6:39:006:39:08

health care professional to be

claimant or their representative. We

6:39:086:39:11

check our systems immediately and as

a matter of course to see if they

6:39:116:39:15

already hold a DS 1500 submitted as

part of another claim. When already

6:39:156:39:21

held, we reuse this Universal

Credit. Receipt of this information

6:39:216:39:26

indicates to us that the claimant

must have immediate access to DWP

6:39:266:39:31

support. The support immediately

results in an additional amount of

6:39:316:39:38

the £318.76 per month included in

the Universal Credit entitlement.

6:39:386:39:42

The additional amount is payable

from the start of day one of their

6:39:426:39:45

claim. In addition, the claimant is

completely removed from any

6:39:456:39:49

conditionality requirements. The

Department and the Universal Credit

6:39:496:39:54

programme have regular meetings with

charities like Macmillan Cancer

6:39:546:40:00

Support to understand how policies

are working and to identify and

6:40:006:40:03

discuss potential areas for

improvement. I also recognise that

6:40:036:40:09

he has encountered Universal Credit

claimants who have had issues with

6:40:096:40:14

the service in this constituency

and, as I acknowledged earlier,

6:40:146:40:17

things can go wrong and when they

do, I'm sorry for that. Where cases

6:40:176:40:25

involve vulnerable claimants, it's

particularly important that they are

6:40:256:40:29

escalated, investigated and quickly

resolved but I am aware that he has

6:40:296:40:33

a direct relationship with the

Scotland complaint resolution team,

6:40:336:40:36

as well as with our local operations

team, which has helped manage a

6:40:366:40:43

number of urgent cases to be

successful in being solved. We have

6:40:436:40:51

Universal Credit available in job

centres and we are continuing to

6:40:516:40:58

review and further develop the

customer journey for those with

6:40:586:41:02

complex needs and how we support

terminally ill claimants to engage

6:41:026:41:06

in the process and I will welcome

the honourable gentleman bringing

6:41:066:41:09

the debate to the floor of the house

today, and raising important issues

6:41:096:41:14

that he has. I do recognise that

there are areas for improvement in

6:41:146:41:18

this service but the honourable

gentleman has seen for himself, I

6:41:186:41:21

believe, the drive, commitment and

passion that so many staff,

6:41:216:41:27

stakeholders and people working

across Universal Credit have to see

6:41:276:41:30

this important reform through. Thank

you.

The question is this house do

6:41:306:41:35

now adjourn, as many of the opinion

is a aye? The ayes have it.

6:41:356:41:44

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