07/12/2017 House of Commons


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07/12/2017

Live coverage of the day's proceedings in the House of Commons, including Backbench Business debates on prison reform and safey, as well as the the UK fishing industry.


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Four Seasons. Beyond that, I cannot

say much, commercial issues for

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them. He is right to raise it and I

hope I can reassure him CQC close to

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what is happening.

Point of order.

On September the 13th of this year,

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this House unanimously passed a

motion to revoke the higher

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education regulations 2016 which

imposed the Government's latest hike

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in tuition fees. The Government have

refused to give effect to the will

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of the House but the leader promised

under her new convention we would

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get a statement within 12 weeks. Mr

Deputy Speaker, like yesterday, the

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final day of the 12 weeks, we got a

written statement, it added almost

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nothing new and left us none the

wiser on the Government's promised

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review of higher education funding.

It confirmed however that the

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Government will continue to ignore

the clear will of this House and our

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conventions allowing Parliament's

say on that meat secondary

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legislation. I would like to ask if

you can tell us your understanding

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of the so-called convention? -- on

the secondary legislation. As the

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Leader of the House giving you an

indication of when ministers should

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or will respond by all statements

rather than written to the House and

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can you give us any guidance on how

the House can have a say on

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secondary legislation? This

government is riding roughshod over

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the democratic will of this House.

How can we ensure this House is

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respected?

I think we have heard

enough today. Right. Thank you to

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the honourable member for giving me

notice of the question. She has

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asked quite a few things. The

Minister, let us go through it, has

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made a detailed written statement on

the matter yesterday which has

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followed the Leader of the House

understanding of the 26th of

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September. If the honourable member

finds this unsatisfactory which

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obviously she does, there are

various avenues open, most

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immediately, education questions on

Monday, I am sure that is already

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apparent as a good place to start.

The Leader of the House's new

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convention, as a senior

frontbencher, she may wish to pursue

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the matter through the usual

channels. I hope they will be open

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to try to ensure you get the answer.

If not, and I know you are not a

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shy, retiring Northerner like

myself, I am sure you could go

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directly and have a meeting with the

Leader of the House to take it

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forward. No more further points of

order. We now come to prison reform

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and safety. Welcome to the bank

which motion on prison reformers

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safety. -- backbench motion on

prison reform and safety.

Can I

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start by thanking the Backbench

Business Committee for having given

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us the opportunity to bring this

debate to the floor of the House on

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this very important topic? Can I

also thank the co-sponsor of the

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motion, right honourable member and

other members of the committee on

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both sides of the House who have

contributed to our work over the

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last two years or more in this

Parliament and the one beyond? I

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also wanted a tank the organisations

involved in prison reform -- I also

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wanted to thank. They have assisted

us with advice and experience, as

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well as indeed the cooperation as a

committee from officials of Her

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Majesty's prison and probation

service and prison officers across

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the country. They are all deserving

of our thanks. I will give way. You

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will appreciate... I would like to

make a bit of progress.

I would like

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to check the honourable member made

a visit to the prison as part of the

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investigations and saw the fantastic

work done there with invisible walls

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making people's huge difference to

people's attitudes as to how prison

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can prevent reoffending?

We visit a

number of prisons on a regular

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basis, we are aware of the good work

done at Park. I hope people

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understand if I try to develop what

causes us to bring the motion to

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this house and the terms in which we

do it. We cannot avoid the reality

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that our prison system has reached a

stage where we have to use the

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phrase a crisis now. It does not

come lightly. Over 30 years of

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experience practising criminal law

on the visiting prisons to advise

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prisoners and subsequently working

in the criminal justice sector with

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since I have been in this House.

This leads me to the inevitable

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conclusion we are seeing a system

under unprecedented strain. I say

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that not for one second outing the

good intentions of the Minister on

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the bench today or his predecessors,

not doubting the good intentions of

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the current Secretary of State or

his predecessors, and not doubting

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the good intentions of the

management of Her Majesty's prison

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and probation service and the real

good work we see when we go around

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the country carried out by many

individuals within that service.

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But... Can I develop this point

customer but the reality is, despite

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extra money being put into the

system over the last year or so

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following the report, despite the

good work, all of the indicators

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when we looked at the situation in

both our two reports, on safety and

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reform in the 2016 sessions, all the

indicators then and since going in

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the wrong direction. I will give

way.

I'm really grateful. I am

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really grateful to the right

honourable gentleman... Although he

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deserves it, not yet! I agree very

much with the point he is making.

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Does he agreed the truth is we

simply incarcerate too many people,

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particularly people with mental

health problems, a staggering

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percentage of people in prison have

mental health problems? And many

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also have autism or learning

disabilities. We need to get people

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the treatment they need to help them

avoid the criminal justice system in

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the longer run.

The right honourable

gentleman raises an important point,

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I personally agree with him.

Although it is not directly touched

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upon in the reports giving rise to

this debate, our committee has

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agreed not to embark upon a new

inquiry looking at the prison

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population up to 2025, projections.

The issues he raises will be

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important in that inquiry. I give

way.

I am most grateful. Does he

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agree with me that levels of

literacy among prisoners is a

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problem and I understand that over

30% of people in prison have a

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reading age of an 11-year-old

customer isn't this something that

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does need to be addressed?

-- an

11-year-old? He is right. The

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previous Secretary of State

reflected upon it and emphasised on

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a number of occasions that

absolutely correctly, if we do not

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turn our prisons into places of

education, we will be failing and we

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will continue to see reoffending. It

is a real issue. Part of the problem

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is the low attainment of those

people when they come in, very often

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linked with considerable numbers of

other issues of social deprivation,

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lack of proper parenting very often,

unstable family backgrounds,

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particularly high percentage having

been in care, for example. The

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educational attainment is... Can I

just finished? It needs to be

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tackled. One of the real concerns we

have found is that because of other

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pressures on the system, many

establishments are running regime is

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so restricted it is virtually

impossible for prisoners even those

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who are well motivated, to access

some of the educational facilities

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which ought to be there. The most

important point. I am grateful. I

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will give way.

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Would my honourable friend agree

with me that actorly prison can

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offer a second chance at that

education and finding the right

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track? Very often charities like

Green and Gross, who work in the

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prison is a notebook in particular,

but who I work within my

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constituency, actually help enable

people to understand and connect

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with the environment and learn about

food and nutrition and the basics of

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life that many of us take for

granted?

I do recognised very good

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work that is done. But we need to

have a programme of prison reform

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that genuinely enables us to draw

that good work together, and puts it

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under a comprehensive and holistic

strategy. For example the very good

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work that is done by many of those

people on those programmes ought to

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be reinforced by a more imaginative

use of release on temporary licence

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as we follow that up. Sadly we have

seen a decrease of about 40% of

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release on temporary licence over

the last couple of decades. That is

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an indicator going in the wrong

direction.

I right honourable friend

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might agree with me that if we could

engage many more of these outside

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bodies, local authorities, experts

in health, the environment, like the

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wildlife trust, who have good

programmes on rear dilatation, we

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could save money if we had the right

framework set up a benefit those

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offenders going on the causes

because we would help to skill them

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up and give them confidence going

into the outside world?

My

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honourable friend is right and I

can't do better than quote from a

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19th-century American Prison Reform

Trust, Osborne. A politician, a

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return to good works, which might

seem like a tautology, but he became

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immersed in the prison system and

became prisons reform commissioner

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in New York just before the First

World War. He said this and it is

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true today: Not until we think about

prisons as in reality education

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institutions shall we come within

sight of a successful system. And by

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successful system, he said I mean

one that not only ensures a quiet,

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orderly, well-behaved prison, but

restores to society the largest

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number of intelligent and honest

citizens. He was right then and it

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rings true now as well.

Thank you

very much, Deputy Speaker, and thank

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you very much, my honourable friend.

I was recently very glad to speak to

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a group of sixth form students

studying modern studies and they

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asked me about prisons and I said in

the first opportunity I would ask

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one of their questions on the floor

of the Mouse. My honourable friend

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is so well versed on the subject so

I will literally asking one of their

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questions. Do you think the support

offered to those prisoners with

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mental health disorders is

effective?

All be evidence our

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committee has seen so far is that it

is not effective at the present

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time. We have far too many people in

Britain suffering from mental health

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difficulties. The former Prime

Minister David Cameron stressed that

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point very rightly in a speech back

in late 2015. In February. My

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honourable friend remembers it

vividly. The point is that the

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loosely well-made. While there are

some people who we will always have

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to imprison or deserve to go to

prison, and I saw another of those

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in my career as a barrister in

criminal law, there are many others

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who are therefore other more complex

reasons. Bad choices, lack of

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support, lack of background, poor

education. Issues around mental

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health. We need to be much more

discerning and to do that, we need

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to have a much more sophisticated

approach to our penal policy,

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including putting in place genuinely

robust alternatives to custody in

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the right places for those who are

not a threat and a danger to the

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public and who can be reformed

without going into prison. That is

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critical. We have not yet achieved

that. We have got to have a system

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in which both sentences and the

public have confidence, and proper

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rehabilitation for those who are

incarcerated. But since virtually

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everybody will be released at some

point or other, we must make sure we

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released them in a better state to

contribute to society than we do at

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the moment. I will give way and then

I will have to make some progress.

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He is absolutely right to emphasise

the issue of education and

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rehabilitation, but can I also add

to that the critical role of access

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to family? And can I commence to him

the Joint Committee on Human Rights

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report on mental health in prisons

and looking at the risks to young

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people in particular about offenders

with mental health problems who

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didn't always guarantee access to

family support at critical times

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when they were self harming and at

risk of suicide?

I know other

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honourable friend of mine are likely

to take up those points in the

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course of the event. Can I finally

make these points? While we welcome

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the number of the initiative the

government are taken, there is still

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more that needs to be done. We

particularly regret the loss of the

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prison element of the prison and

courts built from the last

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Parliament because placing that

statutory purpose including

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rehabilitation for prisons would

have been an important umbrella, if

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you like, to link up the work that

is done. But having a proper prison

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reform and safety plan is welcome

and that is good news but again we

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need to put that into a full

context, and we need to seek

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positive actions and not just the

good aspirations that are set out.

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Having a genuinely independent and

robust inspectorate is essential. It

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is therefore regrettable again that

we have so far lost the opportunity

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to place not just the chief

inspector of prisons but the whole

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inspectorate as an institution on

the statutory basis and to

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strengthen the requirement for his

recommendations to be complied with.

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It is pretty scandalous at the

moment that a minority of his

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recommendations in some cases are

dealt with. That needs to change.

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Similarly placing the prison

ombudsman on the statutory books,

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and regrettably we are not there

yet. I hope we will find legislative

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opportunities to do this and I

believe that is where the minister

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would like to go but we must not

lose that off the agenda. We know

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and others will refer to the fact

that at the moment our indicators on

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safety both in relation to self

harm, suicide, prison on prisoner

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assault and assaults on staff

continue to go in the wrong

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direction. More prison officers have

been put in but it comes back to the

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point that we have got to look in

the round at how many people we are

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sending to prison and why and what

sort of regimes they have. We have

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seen reference to an action plan on

prison safety and reform. What we

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hope to see our specific strategies

unemployment, mental health, women

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in prison, and specific strategies

around retention and recruitment of

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officers, thus keeping experienced

officers, which is particularly

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important. A proper robust

inspection mechanism where the

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inspectorate including excellent

people are genuinely able to do what

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is necessary. Wheels and a tad more

transparency. I know my honourable

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friend the member for Banbury is

going to talk about transparency and

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data. -- we also need more

transparency. It cannot be right

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that the 29 Britons inspected this

year, 21 were judged not to be poor

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or good. -- of the 29 prisons

inspected this year, 21 were judged

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to be poor or not good. We need to

use the changes that have been made

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to the structure of the prison and

probation service to refresh that

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culture at every level. I think that

is the most pressing matter. There

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is great work done further down but

all too often prison officers and

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governors have said to us that they

feel cut out sometimes of what can

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still be too hierarchical in the

chain of command. That needs to

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change. Prison reform at the end of

the day was rightly described by

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David Cameron as being a great

progressive cause. It should be, it

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should be for politicians on all

sides of the political divide. A

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former Home Secretary who became

Prime Minister said that one of the

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purposes of prisoner was to seek the

treasure in the heart of every man.

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That was Winston Churchill in 1910.

I say to the Prime Minister, having

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had the same career trajectory, that

sort of phrase would have a very

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good fit with their desire to tackle

the burning injustices in society

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because some of the injustices and

challenges in prisons are as acute

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in our society as anywhere else. We

hope to have more specific responses

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from the minister to the reports we

have made and a further indication

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of the direction of travel. And

above all, I hope this House will

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not let the issue slide away down

the agenda.

The question is as on

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the order paper. David Hanson.

Thank

you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Five

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minutes. Starting from now! Thank

you, Mr Deputy Speaker. This is a

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particularly hard-hitting motion. If

members and honourable members read

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the motion, they will see it is not

drawing back challenges the prison

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service faces. It is important today

that as a select committee we focus

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on specific issues, and we will do

this, and put to the minister what

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the response of the government will

be to those major challenges. As the

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honourable member for Bromley and

Chislehurst, the very good chair of

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the select committee, has said,

those challenges are deteriorating.

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The situation is getting worse. The

problems in prisons are

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exacerbating. While staff are doing

an excellent job and trying their

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best in difficult circumstances, it

is clear that when we face a

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situation where we have 300 deaths

in prison custody in the last 12

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months, of which 77 were

self-inflicted, when we see self

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harm reaching record highs and

increasing by 12% over the 12

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months, when we see the number of

incidents requiring hospital

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attendance rising by 9% over the

past 12 months, when we seek

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prisoner on prisoner assaults rising

to record highs, or when we see for

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example assaults on staff continuing

to rise, and when we see the number

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of hospital admissions continuing to

rise, there is some real talent in

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the system. I would contend there is

a challenge because of a reduction

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in resource. There is a challenge

because of reduction in staff but

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there is also a challenge because of

the increase in the amount of

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psychoactive substances and drugs

getting into prison. It is a

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difficult job and a difficult

challenge but if we don't get the

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basics right in our prison system,

then the elements of reform, rear

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dilatation and turning out positive

individuals back into society will

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be hampered by those incidents. --

reform and rehabilitation.

With

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people taking their own lives that

the rate of one every three days in

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the last year, does he agree that

the prison service should set to

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zero suicide ambition and we should

be seeking to save every life and it

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is intolerable that so many people

are losing their lives in the prison

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system?

Absolutely. The threat

assessment and self harm assessment

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are extremely important but that

requires staffing to keep a watch on

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individuals and to support them

through challenging mental health

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problems very often, particularly in

the first few days and weeks of

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incarceration where people are

coming off alcohol and drugs, or

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arriving in prison with severe

mental health challenges. The reason

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this is important, Mr Deputy

Speaker, is because in my view we

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need to look at how we can tackle

these issues in a positive way. One

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of the real challenges is to ensure

that we do undertake very strongly a

0:21:230:21:29

review of the strategy, particularly

on psychoactive substances and

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drugs. The government has said for

example that it has rolled out tests

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were psychoactive substances across

the state. Perhaps the minister can

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tell us how many today have taken

place at what the outcome would be?

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The government has said they have

trained 300 dogs to detect

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psychoactive substances. Perhaps the

minister can tell us whether every

0:21:500:21:52

prison has access to the dogs and

how many of the dogs are ensuring

0:21:520:21:59

that we tackle and catch substances

that are smuggled in? The government

0:21:590:22:03

has said it is making possession of

psychoactive substances in prison is

0:22:030:22:08

a criminal offence and I would look

at how we monitor and enforce that

0:22:080:22:11

legislation. I think the minister

should look at introducing planned

0:22:110:22:16

searches in prisons of prisoners. I

think it is important that the

0:22:160:22:21

minister looks that prison officers

in particular, and whether there

0:22:210:22:24

should be searches of prison

officers and delivery staff. I spoke

0:22:240:22:27

to prison officers this week he

would welcome that because they want

0:22:270:22:30

to weed out potential corruption

among members of staff and I think

0:22:300:22:35

it is important that we have some

indication of how that will be

0:22:350:22:39

undertaken generally. I want to see

if the minister wants to undertake

0:22:390:22:42

particularly further steps to ensure

that all category C prisons have

0:22:420:22:47

netting around them to stop

individuals throwing material into

0:22:470:22:50

prisons for drugs. I want to see and

ensure that we have the

0:22:500:22:55

re-establishment of the dogs units,

not just regionalised resource which

0:22:550:22:59

they are now, but also a local

resource which can be allocated

0:22:590:23:03

locally. I think it is important

that we look at particularly the

0:23:030:23:09

criminal gangs inside prison and

outside prison making money from the

0:23:090:23:13

delivery of drugs into prison

through many means as a whole. What

0:23:130:23:16

I don't get from the government and

I think this is shared by external

0:23:160:23:20

agencies like the Inspectorate of

prisons, is what the overall

0:23:200:23:24

strategy is. There are individual

measures but I don't get the overall

0:23:240:23:29

strategy. I would like some

indication from the minister as to

0:23:290:23:31

what is happening with regard to

reformed prisons. Yesterday we had a

0:23:310:23:35

report about a prison which showed

that every indicator was going in

0:23:350:23:40

the wrong direction. All those

indicators were causing more drugs,

0:23:400:23:44

more self harm, more attacks on

staff in a reformed prison. I think

0:23:440:23:47

we need to know who is accountable

for that and what the plan is to

0:23:470:23:51

drive improvements in that prison

forward.

0:23:510:23:57

Time is pressing. When his other

minister came to the Justice

0:23:570:24:05

Committee, recently, he talked about

Oak Hill training centre, I asked

0:24:050:24:12

him a question, is the Minister

satisfied the performance now is at

0:24:120:24:17

a level you are satisfied with? The

Minister replied, currently, they

0:24:170:24:23

are. Since that report and inquiry

discussion, there has been a report

0:24:230:24:28

which has shown yet again that the

establishment is not performing to

0:24:280:24:32

the standards it should do and I

want to know from the Minister, what

0:24:320:24:36

concrete steps are being taken to

improve performance and if the

0:24:360:24:42

improvement is not made, will the

Minister seek to remove the contract

0:24:420:24:50

from G4S?

Thank you. It is a

pleasure to follow both honourable

0:24:500:24:56

gentleman and to work with them on

the committee. I should apologise to

0:24:560:25:00

the House I will not be here for

wind ups, I have already apologised

0:25:000:25:05

to the Minister and the Deputy

Speaker. My heart is currently in

0:25:050:25:08

the High Court where my District

Council and brilliant campaigning

0:25:080:25:15

group is bringing a judicial review

against the Clinical Commissioning

0:25:150:25:18

Group for their failure to consult

us properly on changes to our local

0:25:180:25:23

hospital. I will be going there

immediately after I have spoken.

0:25:230:25:27

Nothing else could stop me from

talking about prisons. As colleagues

0:25:270:25:31

in this house know very well! I

realised my time in the judicial

0:25:310:25:36

review yesterday how much I as a

former civil servant care about

0:25:360:25:40

evidence and about good government.

That is why I am going to focus on

0:25:400:25:47

data and the importance of data

provision in what I say today. I am

0:25:470:25:53

disappointed the prisons and courts

Bill did not make it into the

0:25:530:25:56

Parliamentary session but I accept

many of the changes envisaged do not

0:25:560:26:01

require legislation but can be taken

forward in other ways. These changes

0:26:010:26:06

must be driven by reliable

performance data. In my two and a

0:26:060:26:10

half years on the committee, we have

asked successive ministers for

0:26:100:26:16

up-to-date information on prison

safety indicators, such as,

0:26:160:26:20

incidents of disorder, staffing

levels, activity levels, including

0:26:200:26:25

number of hours each day prisoners

spend locked in their cells. Our

0:26:250:26:29

efforts have resulted in better

quality data on recruitment and

0:26:290:26:33

retention but we have struggled to

scrutinise the Government's efforts

0:26:330:26:38

to improve the situation because we

have not received the information we

0:26:380:26:41

need. The Secretary of State

delivered welcome news when he

0:26:410:26:46

appeared in front of the committee

in October and told us about the

0:26:460:26:51

justice data hub which went live the

following day. I would encourage

0:26:510:26:55

honourable members but not in the

course of the debate to look up the

0:26:550:26:59

justice data hub on the Ministry of

Justice website. It holds

0:26:590:27:03

information ranging from the

perception of prisoners on safety,

0:27:030:27:08

programme completions and deaths in

custody. I am far from techie, but I

0:27:080:27:16

found it easy to use. A step in the

right direction. But much of the

0:27:160:27:21

information is based on annual

statistical releases. If we are

0:27:210:27:24

really committed to reform, we need

more data that drills down on

0:27:240:27:29

specifics. We need to know how much

time prisoners are spent locked in

0:27:290:27:35

cells on a daily basis and work out

whether the funding given to the

0:27:350:27:39

most under pressure prisons has

actually had an impact. I am in

0:27:390:27:43

regular contact with the governor of

a prison in my constituency, he was

0:27:430:27:50

very understanding when I had to

postpone our meeting scheduled for

0:27:500:27:53

this afternoon. The prison recently

underwent an inspection and areas of

0:27:530:27:59

improvement were identified. Without

comparative performance data, and

0:27:590:28:03

knowing where he stands in

comparison with other prisons, it is

0:28:030:28:07

very difficult for governor to feel

genuinely empowered to achieve

0:28:070:28:10

better outcomes we are looking for.

We must also know more about what

0:28:100:28:16

our prisoners are doing when they

have completed their sentences. The

0:28:160:28:20

online hub can tell us how prepared

they feel for release but nothing

0:28:200:28:24

more about those who find housing or

employment after they have left

0:28:240:28:29

prison. We know there are fantastic

organisations working to prepare

0:28:290:28:33

prisoners for release. The Langley

house trust provides specialist

0:28:330:28:42

housing and programmes supporting

the community for people seeking to

0:28:420:28:46

live crime free, just 2.6% of the

people their housing are

0:28:460:28:52

re-convicted, one of the lowest

rates in the country. I will give

0:28:520:28:54

way.

Does she share my concern

therefore that Westminster council's

0:28:540:29:02

rough sleeping strategy, the borough

with the highest incidence of rough

0:29:020:29:06

sleeping in the country, they found

one in three rough sleepers had been

0:29:060:29:11

released from prison? We absolutely

have to put them in a secure home,

0:29:110:29:17

central to the issue of prisoner

release.

I could not agree more that

0:29:170:29:22

housing is absolutely key to proper

rehabilitation of offenders. I do

0:29:220:29:26

not think I would be breaching any

confidences if I said the Justice

0:29:260:29:30

Select Committee will be trying to

work with other select committees in

0:29:300:29:34

Parliament to ensure we cover the

issues related to housing fully in

0:29:340:29:38

the coming parliamentary session.

Another organisation transforms

0:29:380:29:46

lives through the challenge to

change programme including

0:29:460:29:49

post-release mentoring. To break the

cycle of reoffending, we must have

0:29:490:29:53

more data to target projects like

these. But come on a data driven

0:29:530:30:02

department is a laudable ambition

but it is vital the statistics do

0:30:020:30:06

more than scratch the surface. Safe

and decent prison conditions

0:30:060:30:13

promoting rehabilitation, it is

complex. It must be well rounded in

0:30:130:30:17

evidence, finding solutions to the

problems our prisons face requires

0:30:170:30:22

us to delve much deeper than we have

done. In conclusion, off I go to

0:30:220:30:28

court to deal with the way good

government is run, but I would ask

0:30:280:30:33

all honourable members to remember

when considering prisons that data

0:30:330:30:36

really matters.

Thank you, Mr Deputy

Speaker. As a newly elected member

0:30:360:30:46

of the Commons Justice Select

Committee, it gives me pleasure to

0:30:460:30:49

speak in the debate. Last Thursday,

members of the committee visited HMP

0:30:490:30:56

Rochester. It holds 740 prisoners

and conditions in the Victorian

0:30:560:31:02

prison were described as deplorable

by the independent monitoring board.

0:31:020:31:05

In March, 2017, the Government

announced it would be closed and

0:31:050:31:09

replaced. In October, 2017, it was

put on hold. Many of the facilities

0:31:090:31:16

are in a state of disrepair. For

instance, the classroom in which

0:31:160:31:20

rehabilitation lessons took place

had a leaking roof. I will give way.

0:31:200:31:28

Allah on that point,

-- on that

point, it is extremely important we

0:31:280:31:35

go and have the data around the

importance in terms of training and

0:31:350:31:40

education and in terms of the

prisoners education trust and the

0:31:400:31:46

Ministry of Justice report,

reoffending goes down by an average

0:31:460:31:50

five percentage points, extremely

important.

I thank my honourable

0:31:500:31:57

friend for that intervention and I

agree education is absolutely at the

0:31:570:32:01

heart of the rehabilitation of

offenders and such a crucial point

0:32:010:32:05

which is why at Rochester, when it

rains, lessons have to be cancelled

0:32:050:32:09

because the roof leaks, it has to be

urgently addressed, if we are to

0:32:090:32:15

reform our prisons and improve

standards. Visiting cells in

0:32:150:32:20

Rochester, we saw prisoners in

cramped and sanitary conditions. One

0:32:200:32:24

housed three men with a toilet

screened by little more than plastic

0:32:240:32:28

sheeting and no toilet lid. The

perimeter fence is low and not

0:32:280:32:33

comprehensively covered by CCTV.

This has led to drugs, particularly

0:32:330:32:39

spice and other psychoactive

substances, frequently being thrown

0:32:390:32:41

over the fence, with 47 drug-related

instances been reported in just one

0:32:410:32:46

week. We were told it would cost

£300,000 to install CCTV system fit

0:32:460:32:51

for purpose and the benefits would

be immeasurable. Wheels are visited

0:32:510:32:56

the drug rehabilitation wing but the

12-step rehabilitation programme had

0:32:560:33:00

to stop when the prison received its

now rescinded closure notice. These

0:33:000:33:04

are the conditions the Governor and

the staff at HMP Rochester are

0:33:040:33:08

battling with on a daily basis and I

want to commend the work they do.

0:33:080:33:13

One of the key factors in

rehabilitation and safety in prisons

0:33:130:33:16

is the prison population. It has

been fluctuating around the 85,000

0:33:160:33:23

mark for nearly a decade and as of

this month, it now stands at 80

0:33:230:33:27

6000. The Government has repeatedly

been asked why the numbers continue

0:33:270:33:31

to grow and their answer usually

follows the template that more

0:33:310:33:35

people are convicted of six related

offences and serving longer

0:33:350:33:40

sentences -- sex related offences.

But we must also look at the wider

0:33:400:33:46

picture to understand fully why our

prison population continues to rise.

0:33:460:33:50

We cannot look at offences and

sentence length alone to answer the

0:33:500:33:54

question. Long-term cuts to mental

health services, addiction support

0:33:540:33:59

and housing have played a part and

had an impact on the prison

0:33:590:34:03

population through reoffending

rates. The Ministry of Justice

0:34:030:34:05

latest figures for 2015 have shown

that 29.6% of offenders in the

0:34:050:34:14

October- December 20 15th cohort

reoffended within a year. Cuts mean

0:34:140:34:18

less support when they are

individuals who require more than

0:34:180:34:21

most. The no fixed abode study from

2016 estimated a third of released

0:34:210:34:29

prisoners have no accommodation to

go to when leaving prison. The

0:34:290:34:34

combined homelessness and

information network report on rough

0:34:340:34:36

sleeping in London showed 33% of

people seem sleeping rough had some

0:34:360:34:40

experience of being in prison. Let

me repeat that, a third of all

0:34:400:34:45

prisoners are likely to be homeless

upon release.

I will give way. Would

0:34:450:34:51

she not agree with me it plays into

the point of the honourable member

0:34:510:34:55

for Banbury about not being able to

keep the data, it is well to health

0:34:550:35:00

outcomes of those who seek rough are

less good and we find ourselves in

0:35:000:35:04

this never-ending cycle bouncing

between the street, prison, in and

0:35:040:35:08

out of the system, with little care

and attention to find the treasure

0:35:080:35:14

in that man's soul, as the

honourable underside?

I thank her

0:35:140:35:20

for the intervention and one of the

issues raised is people in prison

0:35:200:35:27

for short sentences of two, three

months. -- the honourable member

0:35:270:35:32

said. There is no chance for there

to be rehabilitation in that time.

0:35:320:35:36

What we need to look closely at this

community-based sentencing for

0:35:360:35:41

people so they can get

rehabilitation and come out of the

0:35:410:35:45

cycle of prison and homelessness,

prison and homelessness. A very

0:35:450:35:48

important point. In order to reduce

reoffending rates, we need to stop

0:35:480:35:57

the spiral of prison services being

eviscerated, leaving inmates with

0:35:570:36:01

little help in their rehabilitation

work. I think it is a commonly held

0:36:010:36:06

view across this House that prison

is not merely there to punish

0:36:060:36:11

offenders, protect society and act

as a deterrent, it must also exist

0:36:110:36:16

to rehabilitate and re-educate.

These aims can ultimately reduce the

0:36:160:36:20

risk of reoffending by providing

services to inmates that will

0:36:200:36:23

provide them with the necessary

skills which upon their release from

0:36:230:36:27

prison mean they will be best

equipped to fit back into society

0:36:270:36:31

and mitigate their chances of

falling into that cycle of criminal

0:36:310:36:36

behaviour. When prisoners are

incarcerated, the state is

0:36:360:36:40

responsible for their well-being. We

must not view this responsibility

0:36:400:36:43

lightly. If we are to reduce crime

and in turn the prison population,

0:36:430:36:48

we must fix the wider pieces of the

complex jigsaw. Our prison system is

0:36:480:36:57

operating at close to maximum

capacity. This is not sustainable

0:36:570:37:00

and it is not a simple case of

longer sentences for more serious

0:37:000:37:05

crimes. We have a collective

responsibility to ensure the system

0:37:050:37:08

in which these prisoners are treated

as comprehensive in its ability to

0:37:080:37:12

provide rehabilitation, only then

will we see the prison population

0:37:120:37:16

decline. In conclusion, it is clear

there are multiple things that must

0:37:160:37:24

be addressed in order for us to

secure decent and sustainable prison

0:37:240:37:30

reforms to ensure the prison

population is manageable and kept at

0:37:300:37:33

a safe level. I have only been able

to draw attention to a small number

0:37:330:37:37

of concerns and I hope fellow

members will touch on other issues.

0:37:370:37:41

Until the prison population is under

control, I fear reform and safety

0:37:410:37:45

standards will suffer. Three people

to a room in a Victorian era prison

0:37:450:37:51

with limited sanitation, little or

no rehabilitation work, uncertain

0:37:510:37:59

futures inside and outside of

prison, this is not where we should

0:37:590:38:03

be in a 21st-century justice system.

We have by no means the worst prison

0:38:030:38:08

service in the world but we could

and should be doing better and I

0:38:080:38:12

look forward to furthering these

aims with my fellow committee

0:38:120:38:15

members in due course. Thank you.

I

have three questions for the

0:38:150:38:21

minister. Some of the comments we

have heard about the concerns we

0:38:210:38:27

have about the quality of the ageing

estate and the living conditions of

0:38:270:38:31

prisoners, my first question is,

what is he going to do about it? My

0:38:310:38:37

second question relates to the

current status of the Government

0:38:370:38:41

closure plans and the plans to

update and replace the ageing

0:38:410:38:47

prisons we have, what is he going to

do about it? The third question I

0:38:470:38:51

have is about the impact the

uncertainty of closures creates in

0:38:510:38:57

terms of what the prisons themselves

are trying to do to update and to

0:38:570:39:01

improve their own facilities. The

first question, he will have seen,

0:39:010:39:09

as we have, responses from the Chief

Inspector of Prisons and he will

0:39:090:39:12

have heard from members who have

spoken today, we see in many prisons

0:39:120:39:19

that showers, lavatory facilities,

they are full and dilapidated and

0:39:190:39:22

there are no credible or affordable

plans for refurbishment.

0:39:220:39:32

The chief inspector of prisons in a

report that he published only a

0:39:320:39:35

couple of months ago said that

prisoners are held in conditions

0:39:350:39:40

that would fall short of what most

lambs on the public would consider

0:39:400:39:44

reasonable or decent. -- most

members of the public would consider

0:39:440:39:50

reasonable or decent. My first

question about what the government

0:39:500:39:54

is doing to address this is very

relevant. In relation to the second

0:39:540:39:59

of my questions about the state of

the government closure plans, the

0:39:590:40:04

minister himself said only a couple

of months ago that while his first

0:40:040:40:09

priority is to ensure public

protection and provide accommodation

0:40:090:40:13

for all the centres by the courts,

the commitment to close old prisons

0:40:130:40:20

remains a very viable option that he

wishes to continue with. I would

0:40:200:40:25

like to hear some detail about what

is happening with that programme. We

0:40:250:40:29

have already seen in the prison

estate transformation programme that

0:40:290:40:40

reconfiguring the estate into three

functions to look after reception,

0:40:400:40:43

training and resettlement, and those

three are crucial to the better

0:40:430:40:48

treatment of prisoners. The ministry

also was given £1.3 billion in 2015

0:40:480:40:58

as part of the spending review to

invest over the next five years to

0:40:580:41:03

transform the prison estate. I would

like to know what exactly is

0:41:030:41:06

happening to that and what progress

is being made and how that is being

0:41:060:41:11

dealt with. The point that I would

make in relation to the third of my

0:41:110:41:22

questions, which was to do with the

impact and uncertainty of closure on

0:41:220:41:33

staff morale, I would echo the

points made by the honourable

0:41:330:41:36

member, about the visit to Rochester

prison. I was not able to go on that

0:41:360:41:41

visit myself but it is crucial that

the lessons from that visit Ireland.

0:41:410:41:46

One of the lessons was that

governors told the committee that

0:41:460:41:52

the decision about investing in

maintenance or improving the

0:41:520:41:57

facilities had not gone ahead since

the announcement that the prison was

0:41:570:42:02

going to close. As we have already

heard, the old 1840s prison

0:42:020:42:07

buildings there are described as

deplorable and deteriorating. That

0:42:070:42:20

impact on recruitment, which had

been frozen in this prison, and the

0:42:200:42:23

way the situation was proving

demoralising to staff. Those are the

0:42:230:42:32

most pertinent questions I would

like to ask.

I am really grateful to

0:42:320:42:36

my honourable friend for raising

Rochester. He may like to know that

0:42:360:42:39

specifically we've found on one wing

some 22 showers had been out of

0:42:390:42:43

operation for months. And when we

spoke to people there, the

0:42:430:42:50

facilities management contractors do

not see the governors as their

0:42:500:42:53

client. They see their client

relationship being with M O J

0:42:530:42:59

Commercial and that needs to be got

right because that actually means

0:42:590:43:01

the governors get nowhere.

We can

have short interventions and the

0:43:010:43:08

honourable member was hoping to get

two minutes at the end. He's eating

0:43:080:43:11

into his own two minutes and he will

understand if he doesn't.

I fully

0:43:110:43:18

accept the point that the honourable

member has made. It goes back to

0:43:180:43:21

what I said about the prison having

given up on trying to invest any

0:43:210:43:27

money into refurbishment of the

prison, trying to replace the ageing

0:43:270:43:32

facilities there, and I have already

quoted from the chief inspector of

0:43:320:43:36

prisons that in many prisons shower

and lavatory facilities are filthy

0:43:360:43:40

and dilapidated. So those three

questions that I asked, what is the

0:43:400:43:46

government going to do to address

our concerns about the quality of

0:43:460:43:51

the ageing estate, what is the

government doing about the current

0:43:510:43:54

programme of reform and estate

modernisation, and what impact the

0:43:540:44:01

uncertainty over closures is having

on both the prisons themselves and

0:44:010:44:05

on the life of the prisoners? I

think they are the most relevant

0:44:050:44:10

questions that I would like to ask

today.

Jonathan Edwards.

The English

0:44:100:44:18

prison system is in crisis. It is

failing inmates, prison officers and

0:44:180:44:24

fundamentally society. As the

heartening motion for this debate

0:44:240:44:26

brought forward by the honourable

members makes clear. Building more

0:44:260:44:30

prison places will not solve the

problem. The prison population tends

0:44:300:44:34

to expand to fill the places

available, often even before they

0:44:340:44:38

are built. As the Howard League put

it, trying to deal with only the

0:44:380:44:42

supply of prison resources and

places will not work. We now need to

0:44:420:44:46

manage demand and the process asks

fundamental questions about who we

0:44:460:44:50

sent to prison and why. It is

therefore surprising the UK

0:44:500:44:54

Government is adopting the strategy

of building an industrial sized

0:44:540:45:04

prison complex in my nation. I am

going to focus my remarks on the UK

0:45:040:45:07

decision to outsource the crisis to

Wales rather than to fix it. The

0:45:070:45:10

Ministry of Justice opened HMP Brad

Wing earlier this year. It can hold

0:45:100:45:17

2100 male prisoners and it will not

be a revelation to many in the House

0:45:170:45:21

that piling a few thousand prisoners

into a small corner of rural Wales

0:45:210:45:23

is not expected to be conducive to

rehabilitation, whether it is the

0:45:230:45:28

left-leaning Howard League or

descent of the social justice,

0:45:280:45:31

founded by the member for Chingford

and Woodford Green, they are all in

0:45:310:45:34

agreement. These prisons do not

rehabilitate. What is even more

0:45:340:45:39

galling is this prison is not built

to meet the demands of the nation in

0:45:390:45:42

which it is being built. Bedwin will

have 800 more inmates than spaces in

0:45:420:45:52

Wales. The new prison will be built

in Port Talbot and again it is not

0:45:520:45:57

being built for our needs. 1600

inmates to be shipped into Port

0:45:570:46:00

Talbot. You do not need to have a

medal to work out that adding this

0:46:000:46:06

to the 800 existing surplus places

in Bedwin to the 1600 at the

0:46:060:46:10

proposed prison would mean 2400

places more than required in Wales.

0:46:100:46:14

The truth of the matter is that

Wales is England's affordable penal

0:46:140:46:20

colony. Westminster is turning the

old south Wales into a homage of

0:46:200:46:24

19th-century New South Wales. These

are not my words. They are the

0:46:240:46:28

comments of Francis Crick, CEO of

the Howard League. She went as far

0:46:280:46:34

to draw a parallel between the

infamous botany Bay penal colony and

0:46:340:46:38

Wales. It is an extreme but fitting

analogy. Plaid Cymru has always been

0:46:380:46:43

against the building of these

monstrous prisons in Wales but

0:46:430:46:47

currently the plans are going ahead

with the Labour was governed's

0:46:470:46:52

blessing and the Labour Welsh

government in Cardiff could stop the

0:46:520:46:57

development if they so wished

because it is being built on was

0:46:570:47:01

government land. If only for once

they would put the interests and

0:47:010:47:05

requirements of Wales first. Wales

does not want or need another super

0:47:050:47:08

prison, much as it did not need the

first. Because of the issues in

0:47:080:47:15

jurisdiction, Westminster can still

impose prisons on Wales. Scotland

0:47:150:47:20

and Northern Ireland have more

generous devolution settlement is.

0:47:200:47:23

The existing situation is far from

perfect but we need Welsh solutions

0:47:230:47:27

to Welsh problems. Welsh offenders

are being sent over the border to

0:47:270:47:32

England, damning indictment of the

current policy as applied to Wales.

0:47:320:47:35

The devolution of the prison state

and criminal justice system must be

0:47:350:47:38

a priority. Putting thousands of

prisoners on top of each other in

0:47:380:47:48

these conditions is not conducive to

rehabilitation or safety, for those

0:47:480:47:52

detained or those doing the

detaining. The lines of

0:47:520:48:01

modern-day... All of the evidence

shows that smaller and more human

0:48:010:48:05

prisons that do not put economies of

scale ahead of outcomes are what the

0:48:050:48:10

prison estate need. I want to close

with a plea to the UK and the worst

0:48:100:48:14

government. Listen to the 9000

signatories on the petition against

0:48:140:48:18

the Port Talbot prison. Listen to

the experts from every inch of the

0:48:180:48:22

political spectrum which advise

against these but he must prisons.

0:48:220:48:26

Listen to the inmates, the

residents, Wales. We will not

0:48:260:48:30

becoming the 's penal colony. I want

to raise with the prisons minister

0:48:300:48:37

today three issues that could

promote progress in effective

0:48:370:48:41

prisoner form, all of which relate

to improving prisoner contact with

0:48:410:48:45

families and which in summary I will

state at the outset. Firstly, the

0:48:450:48:53

need to consider the appointment of

a deputy director for families

0:48:530:48:58

burying staff and priority given to

drugs and violence of prisons.

0:48:580:49:02

Secondly the need to speed up the

long-awaited policy announcement on

0:49:020:49:05

the release on temporary licence

revised procedures. Thirdly, whether

0:49:050:49:10

Skype and other innovative face to

face digital platforms could be used

0:49:100:49:14

to strengthen prisoner' family ties.

The member for Bedfordshire

0:49:140:49:24

important up of quality contact with

families for prisoners for their

0:49:240:49:32

rehabilitation. His leadership paved

the way towards the excellent Farmer

0:49:320:49:37

review. The need to replicate the

good practice which does exist

0:49:370:49:41

across the prison estate in

supporting prisoners' family ties

0:49:410:49:47

and to redress inconsistencies in

this area was one of the key

0:49:470:49:52

messages in the Farmer review

published this year. Its full title

0:49:520:49:57

is The Importance Of Strengthening

Family Ties To Prevent Reoffending

0:49:570:50:01

And Reduce Intergenerational Crime.

I wanted to thank the Prime Minister

0:50:010:50:06

in this place today for the

wholehearted commitment he has made

0:50:060:50:12

in implementing every single one of

the total recommendations of the

0:50:120:50:18

Farmer review in full. Another

reason why the review has gained

0:50:180:50:22

traction in government so

successfully is why senior officials

0:50:220:50:26

are so committed to the family's

agenda, either because they have

0:50:260:50:30

been governors in prisons and they

have seen first hand what a

0:50:300:50:33

difference good family contact

makes. However this important agenda

0:50:330:50:37

cannot be dependent on individuals'

conviction that it matters. Civil

0:50:370:50:45

servants more on. Paul Paper is

leaving at the end of the year. I

0:50:450:50:53

want to pause here to acknowledge

the decades of excellent service he

0:50:530:50:56

has given to our prison service. His

stubborn pursuit of reform and

0:50:560:51:04

championing prisoners' families, who

are among the most elected and

0:51:040:51:07

stigmatise people in this country.

Currently he has his work alongside

0:51:070:51:11

his responsibilities as deputy

director of custody for London and

0:51:110:51:15

Thames Valley, a large group of

prisons. In other words he has the

0:51:150:51:19

families' agenda tagged onto a

demanding existing workload. Does he

0:51:190:51:25

agree it is time to give this agenda

the same priority within a

0:51:250:51:29

management structure within the

prison system as drugs and violence?

0:51:290:51:32

Each of these has got a deputy

director dedicated to it. If family

0:51:320:51:37

relationships is to be the golden

thread running through our prisons,

0:51:370:51:41

then we need senior staff mandated

to keep this issue salient until it

0:51:410:51:45

is embedded on the estate as firmly

as action to combat drugs and

0:51:450:51:51

violence. Indeed family involvement

drives improvements in these other

0:51:510:51:54

areas. Moving on, may I ask also

that the minister kindly look at

0:51:540:52:00

speeding up the development and

announcement of the ROTL policy,

0:52:000:52:08

which allows for temporary release

of prisoners where it is safe to do

0:52:080:52:12

so to undertake activities to

benefit their resettlement including

0:52:120:52:15

rebuilding closer ties with their

family. If men have undertaken

0:52:150:52:20

parenting and other family learning

courses for example about how to be

0:52:200:52:24

a responsible father, then open

conditions such as ROTL give them

0:52:240:52:27

the opportunity to put theory into

practice. There will always be the

0:52:270:52:32

exceptional negative incident

reported but evidence shows that

0:52:320:52:35

high rate of compliance with ROTL

turns and consequential reduction in

0:52:350:52:39

reoffending rates are positive. For

example, an offender could attend a

0:52:390:52:47

parent teacher evening as well as

case conferences to discuss their

0:52:470:52:51

child protection and care

proceedings. It also helps families

0:52:510:52:54

adjust to having the person around

more. Many prisoners begin to feel

0:52:540:52:58

less legitimate as a parent, making

it difficult to build rounded

0:52:580:53:02

relationships with their child. ROTL

would help boost their confidence as

0:53:020:53:06

a parent but indicators suggest that

all forms of ROTL have fallen

0:53:060:53:13

significantly since 2013. Governors

have been waiting for guidance on

0:53:130:53:16

this for over a year and do need

this now. And finally can I ask the

0:53:160:53:22

minister whether Skype or other

face-to-face platforms could be used

0:53:220:53:27

to aid prisoner family contact time

enabling visitors to digitally visit

0:53:270:53:31

their homes and see their family

members in that context?

0:53:310:53:37

Can my first apologise if I am not

able to be here at the wind-ups but

0:53:380:53:44

also take the opportunity to commend

the diligence of the Justice Select

0:53:440:53:48

Committee for bringing this debate

forward? It is incredibly important

0:53:480:53:51

the House has a chance to focus on

this issue of safety and reform.

0:53:510:53:57

There are lots of organisations in

the wider community also

0:53:570:54:01

campaigning. I would like to draw

the House's attention to the

0:54:010:54:07

community trade union, the largest

trade union in the private prison

0:54:070:54:11

sector, they have a very strong set

of recommendations and campaigns for

0:54:110:54:16

the safer justice sector and I would

to take a look at the work of the

0:54:160:54:24

Community Trade Union. That would

add to the issue. I want to talk

0:54:240:54:32

about Her Majesty's prison

Nottingham in my constituency of

0:54:320:54:34

Nottingham East. In recent times, we

have sadly seem some very difficult

0:54:340:54:41

pressure is starting to grow and we

have had five deaths in custody

0:54:410:54:45

since the summer, some of which have

been suicides, some of which we have

0:54:450:54:51

still not had the coroner's report

from. Still early days to know

0:54:510:54:55

whether there is a pattern of events

that have been common throughout

0:54:550:55:02

those. But I have been to meet the

Governor and I have spoken with the

0:55:020:55:09

very diligent independent monitoring

board, volunteers who go in every

0:55:090:55:13

week to check out things like safety

in the prison and effectively I

0:55:130:55:18

think the biggest problem is the

cycle of drugs and smuggling which

0:55:180:55:23

many honourable members have alluded

to, spiced, how the strokes are

0:55:230:55:28

getting into the prison, it really

has to get national attention.

0:55:280:55:31

Sometimes they are thrown over

prison walls, but more often than

0:55:310:55:36

not, and it is very difficult to be

fully certain, there is a smuggling

0:55:360:55:42

process where prisoners themselves

secrete drugs upon their person,

0:55:420:55:47

they bring them in to jail. And of

course, you have the inmates who are

0:55:470:55:55

finding themselves affected by those

psychoactive substances. But in a

0:55:550:56:04

way, it is just as bad that our gang

operations going on in the prison is

0:56:040:56:08

putting pressure on some offenders

who go out on licence, halfway

0:56:080:56:11

through the sentence, and

incredibly, they are almost driven

0:56:110:56:17

to reoffend deliberately to break

their licensed to then go back into

0:56:170:56:21

prison in order to smuggle more

drugs back in. An astonishing idea

0:56:210:56:27

that in the 21st century, we have

reoffending as a way of making a

0:56:270:56:32

living, that there are some

prisoners who are in that particular

0:56:320:56:35

cycle. I want to urge the Minister

to think creatively about how to

0:56:350:56:40

break that particular problem. Yes,

there is a question of resources.

0:56:400:56:45

Although we have had a ridiculous

number of experienced officers taken

0:56:450:56:49

out in recent years, I know things

are stabilising now. But the

0:56:490:56:53

experienced officer set is really

what we are in need of retaining and

0:56:530:56:58

making sure it does not get worse. I

want to encourage the Minister to

0:56:580:57:02

think about ways of breaking the

cycle of people reoffending on

0:57:020:57:06

licence, perhaps randomising which

prisons re-offenders are returned

0:57:060:57:15

to, it could stop this notion that

the prisoner breaks their licence

0:57:150:57:21

and knows they will go back into a

particular prison, if we can break

0:57:210:57:25

that, I know there are networks

across other prisons which is

0:57:250:57:29

difficult to break, but we need some

creative solutions to this. It is

0:57:290:57:33

important the key worker programme

that has started in Nottingham is

0:57:330:57:39

extended so that officers can get to

know inmates a little bit more

0:57:390:57:44

effectively because it is not just

those on vulnerable watch who sadly

0:57:440:57:48

we have seen taking their own lives

and that is an important programme

0:57:480:57:54

to be continued. Also, on

communication, making sure we

0:57:540:57:58

regularise access to telephone calls

the prisoners because there is a

0:57:580:58:03

smuggling problem for mobile

telephones too. If there was access

0:58:030:58:09

to approved family members and some

of the pressures and strains on

0:58:090:58:12

those who are inmates could be

lessened. We need creative

0:58:120:58:18

solutions, resources are part of

this, but it is not just about that,

0:58:180:58:22

which is why I am grateful we have

had the opportunity for this

0:58:220:58:29

important debate for the House to

pay attention to today.

I am very

0:58:290:58:38

delighted to follow the honourable

member from Nottingham, mentioning

0:58:380:58:41

his own experiences of his local

prison. I am pleased to be part of

0:58:410:58:45

this debate and I think there is

general consensus in the Chamber our

0:58:450:58:50

prison system is not perfect but I

would like to acknowledge the

0:58:500:58:54

Government has an ambitious

programme to reform the situation

0:58:540:58:58

benefiting not only offenders but

communities across the country. I

0:58:580:59:01

welcome in particular the 2005

prison officers to be appointed and

0:59:010:59:10

body cameras for prison officers and

the police. I want to focus my

0:59:100:59:19

speech on gardening and the

environment in the prison system. I

0:59:190:59:22

make no excuses for that because I

think there is lots of potential

0:59:220:59:25

here to be helpful and we know that

imprisoning somebody itself does not

0:59:250:59:31

reduce reoffending rates. To do

that, as has been mentioned, we have

0:59:310:59:36

to try and give these people skills

to up their employability chances

0:59:360:59:42

and help them to reintegrate back

within the community and that is

0:59:420:59:48

where environmental and gardening

schemes can really help. I mentioned

0:59:480:59:51

before in this place and many

prisons of course are very old, very

0:59:510:59:57

little green space. There is

definite data to show that if you

0:59:571:00:04

are not in contact with green space

and nature, there is an impact on

1:00:041:00:09

your mental health. I want to talk

about a couple of good schemes. The

1:00:091:00:13

Eden Project have teamed up with

Dartmoor prison to transform disused

1:00:131:00:18

exercise yard a gardening project

within the resettlement unit with

1:00:181:00:22

local residents buying vegetables,

flowers and eggs. This kind of

1:00:221:00:28

scheme is beginning to crop up in

prisons across the country. When I

1:00:281:00:32

was a television reporter, I went to

a prison near Bristol and they had a

1:00:321:00:37

fabulous gardening project and they

had state greenhouses and they won

1:00:371:00:43

gold medals at Chelsea. Lots of

those projects need to be reinstated

1:00:431:00:51

or we need to regenerate some. The

conservation foundation is about to

1:00:511:00:55

start a gardening against the odds

project in Wandsworth and the

1:00:551:00:59

project will extend across three

exercise yard is currently just

1:00:591:01:03

tarmac bringing together prisoners,

staff, the community, leading

1:01:031:01:09

horticulturalists and

environmentalists. This can

1:01:091:01:10

stimulate mental and physical health

and it teaches skills and

1:01:101:01:17

disciplines that can improve

employability and I have recently

1:01:171:01:20

met with the institute representing

the landscape industry, £6 billion

1:01:201:01:25

industry, they are crying out for

people to go and work for them.

1:01:251:01:30

There are opportunities if we can

give people skills in these areas

1:01:301:01:33

once they get back into the working

world. Lots of these projects are

1:01:331:01:38

not costly, they are cost effective

and highly beneficial, so I hope the

1:01:381:01:42

Minister might make reference to

them and I know in a previous

1:01:421:01:46

question I asked, the Minister

mentioned they do run a prisoner

1:01:461:01:50

gardening competition and I was

invited to be a judge and I hope you

1:01:501:01:53

will stick to the offer because I

would like to do that. The Forestry

1:01:531:01:58

Commission run... Of course I will

give way.

I would like to confirm

1:01:581:02:05

the invitation to my honourable

friend to be a judge in the prison

1:02:051:02:11

gardening competition at the

convenience, the invitation is open.

1:02:111:02:15

Hoping I will be allowed out by the

whips. I think this is a very

1:02:151:02:21

important initiative and once we get

more attention for it, more people

1:02:211:02:25

will enter. I thank the Minister for

that. The Forestry Commission run a

1:02:251:02:29

very interesting offenders and

nature scheme offering typically

1:02:291:02:35

working with volunteers on nature

conservation in woodland sites and

1:02:351:02:40

they do different tasks like

building foot paths, creating walks,

1:02:401:02:45

establishing ponds, learning about

conversation and the environment --

1:02:451:02:49

learning about conservation. And

they address factors contributing to

1:02:491:02:55

reoffending. The Phoenix recovery

are a charity working with people in

1:02:551:03:00

and out of prison struggling with

drug and alcohol addiction and the

1:03:001:03:04

drug problem in our prisons has been

much referred to today. This project

1:03:041:03:08

is supported by the national Lottery

and they run a recovery through

1:03:081:03:12

nature programme aiming to connect

people using the services of the

1:03:121:03:15

charity with nature to assist their

recovery and those who participate

1:03:151:03:20

have an incredible 41% higher chance

of recovery than the national

1:03:201:03:28

average. There is mileage in this.

Many of the ideas I have referenced

1:03:281:03:32

today are mentioned in a pamphlet

many colleagues joined in with

1:03:321:03:36

writing with the conservative

environment network calling for a

1:03:361:03:39

more holistic approach to

environmental policy across

1:03:391:03:43

departments. This government is

doing great work on the environment

1:03:431:03:48

now, bringing it into many areas,

but let us add an environment strand

1:03:481:03:53

to the prison reform. I do not know

how many members went to see the

1:03:531:03:57

Paddington America to film. Madam

Deputy Speaker, perhaps you did? --

1:03:571:04:04

Paddington 2. It is fantastic.

Paddington used cooking to improve

1:04:041:04:11

the lives of prisoners and I am

saying, let us use gardening. It is

1:04:111:04:16

challenging. It is not the answer to

everything but it would be one small

1:04:161:04:21

added tool in the box, in the

greenhouse, might I say, that might

1:04:211:04:26

help us to address this problem

which ultimately will improve the

1:04:261:04:29

lives of so many people and they

deserve it.

Nelson Mandela said, no

1:04:291:04:38

one truly knows a nation until one

has been inside its nations. A

1:04:381:04:46

nation should not be judged by how

it treats its highest citizens, but

1:04:461:04:52

its lowest ones. At 3.94 billion

annual expenditure, prisons take up

1:04:521:05:01

the largest share of the Ministry of

Justice's budget, going towards

1:05:011:05:04

maintaining the 118 adult prisons

and keeping 86,000 in prison. It

1:05:041:05:12

works out as a staggering that the

book as a member of the just select

1:05:121:05:21

committee on week ago I visited a

young offenders institute. --

1:05:211:05:28

Justice Select Committee. I was

heartened to see the education and

1:05:281:05:31

training provided but I was very

concerned to learn that because of

1:05:311:05:35

staffing levels, young people were

not getting their 27 hours of

1:05:351:05:38

education they are supposed to.

Instead they were receiving half of

1:05:381:05:42

that amount. This would seriously

hamper the rehabilitation of these

1:05:421:05:47

young men and also increase the

chances of them reoffending. Another

1:05:471:05:52

concern I had was the number of

black, Asian and minority near the

1:05:521:05:56

young offenders there and I want to

link this to the review from David

1:05:561:06:00

Lammy about improving outcomes in

the criminal justice system

1:06:001:06:05

published in September of this year.

As stated in the review, black,

1:06:051:06:12

Asian and minority ethnic prisoners

make up 3% of the population but

1:06:121:06:15

over 12% of the adult prison

population and the proportion of

1:06:151:06:19

under 18s in custody has risen from

25% in 2006 1041% in 2016. They are

1:06:191:06:28

disproportionately in the criminal

justice system and costing taxpayers

1:06:281:06:33

at least 309 million each year. The

review by David Lammy highlighted

1:06:331:06:39

three key things for action and

these are strengthening the link

1:06:391:06:43

between scrutiny and decision making

on fairness of the system and that

1:06:431:06:47

means using the principle of explain

or reform. If there is not an

1:06:471:06:54

explanation, and evidence -based

explanation for the disparities,

1:06:541:06:56

they should be addressed through

reform. Addressing trust deficit, it

1:06:561:07:03

was found more than half of the

British-born BME people believe

1:07:031:07:08

criminal justice system

discriminates against particular

1:07:081:07:10

groups compared to 35% of British

born white people. Identifying where

1:07:101:07:16

responsibilities lie beyond the

criminal justice system, such as

1:07:161:07:20

with parenting, that exploitation of

young people and closer working with

1:07:201:07:24

communities to hold offenders to

account. The review made 35

1:07:241:07:27

recommendations and looked at ways

these relate to prison among other

1:07:271:07:32

areas for preventing reoffending.

Touching on some of the

1:07:321:07:39

recommendations, one of which was

collecting data, I would like to

1:07:391:07:43

know what the Government's plan to

do in relation to collecting and

1:07:431:07:50

disclosing data on ethnicity of

prisoners and offenders? Concerns

1:07:501:07:53

around issues of basic screening and

resettlement and I am aware of

1:07:531:07:59

problems faced by rehabilitation

centres and subcontractors in

1:07:591:08:02

receiving data to help them informed

their view about what help a

1:08:021:08:06

prisoner may need for resettlement.

I'm firmly of the view more

1:08:061:08:10

investment is needed for

resettlement to work in prison. As

1:08:101:08:14

honourable members have mentioned

already, there are serious concerns

1:08:141:08:17

about the state of some of the older

prisons with living conditions being

1:08:171:08:22

poor and inadequate. Honourable

members may have recently read about

1:08:221:08:25

the appalling conditions at HMP

Liverpool will stop another concern

1:08:251:08:28

is the staff in the prisons with 95

out of 104 HMP PS prisons being

1:08:281:08:36

understaffed. There are presently

13% fewer operational prison staff

1:08:361:08:41

than in 2010 and we all know full

condiment staff is required to keep

1:08:411:08:45

prisoners safe, protected from

violence and reduce drug use in

1:08:451:08:51

prisons. One of the reasons that

such a demand for psychoactive drugs

1:08:511:08:55

is the fact many prisoners are

locked up for long periods of time.

1:08:551:08:58

It is a widely held view more

purposeful activity out of the cells

1:08:581:09:03

is a good way to reduce the demand

for drugs. More staffing would help

1:09:031:09:08

keep vulnerable prisoners safe. It

is worrying that in 2016 there were

1:09:081:09:12

120 suicides in prison, doubled the

number from 2012.

1:09:121:09:21

We need to give prison staff safe as

well. In the 12 months prior to

1:09:211:09:28

March 2017, there was a 32% increase

in assaults on staff on the previous

1:09:281:09:35

12 month period. In conclusion, the

minister has a lot of work to do if

1:09:351:09:39

they want to reduce reoffending in

our prisons in the future.

Prison

1:09:391:09:46

safety and reform will continue to

be major priorities for the justice

1:09:461:09:50

committee until the challenges

facing prisons are stabilised. I

1:09:501:09:53

want to focus on the issue of

Governor empowerment and an young

1:09:531:09:57

adults in our prisons. The rise in

assaults, self harm, self-inflicted

1:09:571:10:04

deaths are all unsurprising with

rising prisoner numbers, over

1:10:041:10:08

occupied prisons, understaffing, and

the wave of psychoactive drugs

1:10:081:10:14

washing over prisons, which has been

happening over the last couple of

1:10:141:10:16

years. But how can the system turned

prisoners' lives around when too

1:10:161:10:22

many are locked up the 22 hours a

day and unable to reach education,

1:10:221:10:28

treatment or work? And these

challenges are major for prison

1:10:281:10:33

governors, but also for ministers,

those in the MOJ, and those in the

1:10:331:10:40

prisons and probation service. Back

in the Queen's Speech of 2016,

1:10:401:10:45

prisons were plans to be independent

legal entities with the power to

1:10:451:10:49

enter into contracts, generate

income and appoint their own boards.

1:10:491:10:53

Both the Secretary of State at one

of his ministers more recently has

1:10:531:10:58

said that ministers remain committed

to continuing working towards making

1:10:581:11:02

prisons places of safety but also of

reforming them. Now the justice

1:11:021:11:08

committee on which I have been

sitting since September agrees that

1:11:081:11:13

the prison management and provision

of safe and secure prison conditions

1:11:131:11:17

that promote rehabilitation are

complex activities that must be well

1:11:171:11:22

grounded in evidence. And I would

add what is crucially important is

1:11:221:11:26

adequate resources. I remember once

upon a time there were ideas that

1:11:261:11:31

governors could be incentivised to

reduce reoffending rates of those

1:11:311:11:35

released from their own

establishments. Even now there are

1:11:351:11:41

many good examples of positive good

practice taking place in prison and

1:11:411:11:45

many of those have been mentioned by

members here today. But overarching

1:11:451:11:51

this, there appears to be no joined

up strategy on rehabilitation or

1:11:511:11:55

even of reform. When the prison

system appears to be always in

1:11:551:12:02

crisis management mode. This is

exactly the time when there needs to

1:12:021:12:07

be clear lines of accountability

between the Ministry of Justice,

1:12:071:12:16

NPPS and prison members. To members

of the justice department, these

1:12:161:12:26

lines seem to be fuzzy at best. What

is the current status of devolution

1:12:261:12:32

to governors? What the board

governors been given to prevent the

1:12:321:12:36

power agenda? Where is the review of

reformed prisons? And overarching

1:12:361:12:40

this, where are the leaders and who

gets upset when there are failures?

1:12:401:12:48

And I want to move on to young

adults in the criminal justice

1:12:481:12:51

system and I draw the attention of

the House to the people who

1:12:511:12:57

initiated the transition to adult

that alliance. Young adults aged 18

1:12:571:13:02

to 25 are distinct group. Only 10%

of the general population but

1:13:021:13:06

accounting for 17% of those sent to

prison every year. Admittedly a drop

1:13:061:13:11

from a quarter but still too many at

a key stage in their lives, their

1:13:111:13:15

vulnerable lives. We know that when

policymakers, sentences and

1:13:151:13:19

practitioners take into account

development or majority and the

1:13:191:13:23

particular needs of young adults,

research shows they are more likely

1:13:231:13:27

to grow out of crime. These results

were reflected in a key

1:13:271:13:35

recommendation of the justice

committee in its inquiry of young

1:13:351:13:39

adults and 2016. Add a week ago, the

MOJ released a study that supports

1:13:391:13:46

transition to adulthood's

long-standing campaign to take

1:13:461:13:48

account of young adults' maturity in

our service design and delivery.

1:13:481:13:55

Given the research findings, what

assurance can the government gave

1:13:551:13:58

that it would provided a distinct

regime for young adult offenders as

1:13:581:14:02

proposed by the alliance and the

justice committee? And in

1:14:021:14:08

conclusion, we all have to ask

ourselves what our prisons for? I

1:14:081:14:12

would hope that instead of just

warehousing prisoners as too often

1:14:121:14:15

seems to be the case, the Secretary

of State for Justice and the prisons

1:14:151:14:21

minister will themselves take

responsibility for ensuring our

1:14:211:14:24

prisons are humane, safe, turn lives

around and reduce reoffending.

I

1:14:241:14:32

hope given the short time that I

will restrict my comments to

1:14:321:14:37

conditions at my local prison,

Wormwood Scrubs, especially as this

1:14:371:14:43

debate coincides with the

publication of the independent

1:14:431:14:46

monitoring report last week. Let me

start by paying tribute to the

1:14:461:14:51

chairman of the board. And his

members and his predecessor. They

1:14:511:14:54

have done an excellent job and so do

the majority of staff at the prison

1:14:541:15:01

who show dedication and

professionalism. I was initially

1:15:011:15:07

heartened by this press release

which said there would be positive

1:15:071:15:10

changes in some areas such as a

deduction of more CCTV and a new

1:15:101:15:14

system for prisoners to access their

property. It is right that in July

1:15:141:15:18

this year Wormwood Scrubs went from

grade one, the worst grade, and I am

1:15:181:15:24

thankful only a handful of prisons

are at that level at any one time,

1:15:241:15:29

to great two, but I am afraid that

is probably where the good news

1:15:291:15:33

stops. We have got to be very frank

about this. There is nothing new

1:15:331:15:37

about problems that Wormwood Scrubs.

Many years ago there were problems

1:15:371:15:41

of violence against prisoners and

there had been poor management in

1:15:411:15:45

the past. The report in April last

year talked about them being rat

1:15:451:15:51

infested and overcrowded, with some

prisoners being too frightened to

1:15:511:15:53

leave their cells. The difficulty is

that the problems now very

1:15:531:16:00

specifically around underfunding and

quality services and low numbers of

1:16:001:16:06

staff, despite what we are told by

the government is increasing staff,

1:16:061:16:10

they have now cut it back

dramatically under the coalition

1:16:101:16:12

government. There were 57 members of

staff out and only 21 in last year.

1:16:121:16:20

Let me give a flavour of what I am

talking about. Complaints made by

1:16:201:16:26

prisoners are sometimes handled

inappropriately or passed to the

1:16:261:16:29

staff member who was the subject of

the complaint. Lack of maintenance

1:16:291:16:33

means that prisoners are frequently

subjected to conditions that are

1:16:331:16:36

indecent, not suitable for them to

live in. Health. Unacceptable delays

1:16:361:16:44

in accessing medical treatment. Care

UK, not able to provide staff for

1:16:441:16:53

triage and screening processes.

Looking at the key issue of safety,

1:16:531:16:57

40 to 50 violent incidents in a

typical month, 25% of which are

1:16:571:17:02

gang-related, the second highest

number of prisoners moved by Tornado

1:17:021:17:07

teams, four deaths in custody. There

is a terrible contract are

1:17:071:17:12

culturally and responsible for

maintenance who are always

1:17:121:17:14

criticised. Beds import conditions,

-- beds in poor conditions, no

1:17:141:17:24

working urinal is in parts of the

prison, medieval conditions that

1:17:241:17:27

people are living in. If I look at

the education services, back in

1:17:271:17:35

June, 24% attendance rate at

classes, the library closed for

1:17:351:17:39

several weeks because the contract

could not fix something there. The

1:17:391:17:49

art is based in the Governor's

Althouse outside the prison but

1:17:491:17:52

there is no art teaching going on

inside the prison. These are

1:17:521:17:56

terrible condition. Let me draw your

attention to other aspects that have

1:17:561:18:00

given me terrible concern. It has

the worst record in London for

1:18:001:18:03

accessing legal help. What that

actually means in practice when

1:18:031:18:08

solicitors are trying to see

clients, and I'm quoting all the

1:18:081:18:11

time from the report here, prisoners

are effectively being denied access

1:18:111:18:15

to legal advice. I would ask the

minister to particular look at that.

1:18:151:18:22

That is not acceptable in any of our

prisons where prisoners are going to

1:18:221:18:26

court. This is a 45% remand prison

in that way. The last point I want

1:18:261:18:32

to make is in relation to

rehabilitation. I am afraid... To

1:18:321:18:40

quote on this, the private community

rehabilitation company, NTC Novo,

1:18:401:18:48

which I remember was not a good

appointment, does not sufficiently

1:18:481:18:54

engage with prisoners before they

are released and far too many are

1:18:541:18:56

released without any accommodation

to go to. Is it any wonder that

1:18:561:19:01

reoffending rates are what they are

when this is the background? It is

1:19:011:19:05

not an accident that we are talking

about companies like Care UK, C and

1:19:051:19:19

Carillion. We were told there would

be a prisons revolution but the

1:19:191:19:25

Justice Secretary did not stay

around long enough. It is hard for

1:19:251:19:27

him to be the underdog that I

champion but he was following the

1:19:271:19:32

member for Epsom and Ewell, which is

a tip, follow that member into a

1:19:321:19:37

job! What is this minister going to

do to address the appalling

1:19:371:19:43

conditions taking place every day in

our prisons?

I want to concentrate

1:19:431:19:50

on just one aspect of the prison

system and that is the workforce.

1:19:501:19:54

Prison officers are working with

people with complex mental health

1:19:541:19:58

issues, people that have experienced

trauma throughout their lives, and

1:19:581:20:02

working day in and day out with

people who might assault them,

1:20:021:20:04

keeping watch over people who want

to end their lives, at the forefront

1:20:041:20:08

of organised crime and drugs, they

have got to work in high conflict

1:20:081:20:13

and high tension situations, and

they suffer intolerable abuse.

1:20:131:20:16

Prison officers have told me

1:20:161:20:28

about unbelievable and disgusting

practice named potting where prison

1:20:291:20:31

officers stop a bucket of excrement

over the head of a prison officer

1:20:311:20:34

and they are routinely spat at.

Today 20 staff on the prison assault

1:20:341:20:36

are assaulted every day but somehow

they are not seen as front line

1:20:361:20:39

workers. I would like to challenge

that in the strongest terms. Their

1:20:391:20:41

workers behind closed doors but

their heroics should be seen and

1:20:411:20:44

valued in the same way as other

public sector workers. The increase

1:20:441:20:48

in violence and tension in prisons

cannot of course be seen in a

1:20:481:20:52

vacuum. It is part of the perfect

storm that has been mentioned today.

1:20:521:20:57

Huge cuts to prison staff, massive

increase in the drug Spice and the

1:20:571:21:03

historically high prison population.

There have been thousands of prison

1:21:031:21:06

officer jobs cut and I know there

has been an effort to recruit more,

1:21:061:21:10

and this is certainly welcomed, but

we must and knowledge that they

1:21:101:21:14

enter the service are very different

terms and conditions to those with

1:21:141:21:17

longer service and even those with

longer service have had their terms

1:21:171:21:22

and conditions radically altered.

They are now expected to work much

1:21:221:21:25

longer and recruitment drives inside

the capacity to retain the new

1:21:251:21:28

recruits remains in question. I

agree with the PO a that 68 is too

1:21:281:21:34

relate the retirement age for such a

strenuous and stressful job and I

1:21:341:21:40

support their members to challenge

that increased pension age. -- I

1:21:401:21:45

agree with the POA that 68 is too

late retirement age. A prison

1:21:451:21:57

officer who I met recently said that

their pay was only £13 better off

1:21:571:22:02

today than seven years ago, and this

is somebody with 30 years of

1:22:021:22:07

service. That surely cannot be

right. Staff shortages are more

1:22:071:22:11

pronounced in the south but those

shortages impact on other regions,

1:22:111:22:15

in particular in the North East

through the detached duty system. If

1:22:151:22:19

I can get anything out of the debate

I would like clarity and assurance

1:22:191:22:22

that the minister will look into

this system. A system which sees

1:22:221:22:26

prison officers from my region being

asked to work away for prolonged

1:22:261:22:30

periods of time, staying in hotel

rooms, being sent to prisons where

1:22:301:22:34

there is not a long-standing

relationship with the prisoners,

1:22:341:22:37

where they have no in-depth

understanding or knowledge of their

1:22:371:22:44

needs and issues and personalities,

making those shifts more precarious.

1:22:441:22:46

The justice select committee found

within the 13 months of this scheme

1:22:461:22:51

it cost £63.5 million to the

taxpayer and I would like to know

1:22:511:22:54

how much that system has cost to

date. If the department should not

1:22:541:22:59

have considered spending that money

on incentivising the jobs better and

1:22:591:23:02

making it more likely that people in

the southward of life. Many workers

1:23:021:23:07

in the north only accept detached

duty because of their own dwindling

1:23:071:23:11

pay, I am told. If we are serious

about addressing the crisis in our

1:23:111:23:15

prisons we must start with the

workers and make sure they are

1:23:151:23:18

working in safe conditions and that

safety is in numbers, I believe.

1:23:181:23:23

There is a concerted effort to keep

more experienced workers alongside

1:23:231:23:27

newer staff. Through the cutbacks we

have lost far too much

1:23:271:23:32

organisational knowledge and

experience in our prison service and

1:23:321:23:35

there must be acknowledgement that

this is strenuous front line job.

1:23:351:23:40

And to make these people work until

68 with that really difficult

1:23:401:23:44

fitness test is completely

untenable. And it will be more

1:23:441:23:47

expensive for the service to things

like temporary injury benefits and

1:23:471:23:53

medical inefficiency payments. We

have got to value these workers by

1:23:531:23:57

turning the prison service into a

career again rather than just a job

1:23:571:23:59

and we must do this by stopping

wasting millions and millions of

1:23:591:24:04

pounds in short-term sticking

plaster solutions and really invest

1:24:041:24:07

in the workforce.

1:24:071:24:12

Can I congratulate the honourable

gentleman for setting the scene so

1:24:121:24:21

well and for all the very

constructive contributions from all

1:24:211:24:23

members from both sides of the

Chamber?

1:24:231:24:34

I am very much in the schools at

prisons have a key part in the

1:24:451:24:49

structure and a twofold manner. I

think of the three Rs, retribution

1:24:491:24:59

for the prisoner because he has done

wrong and jail is what the court has

1:24:591:25:04

decided, but alongside that, you

need the other part of the three Rs,

1:25:041:25:09

rehabilitation and training. If you

have those two things, you have a

1:25:091:25:14

genuine chance of turning people

around. I want to see that process

1:25:141:25:17

as part of what we are trying to

achieve through the legislation and

1:25:171:25:22

this committee as well. When we look

at the raising number of suicides,

1:25:221:25:28

we cannot ignore them and every

member has referred to them. They

1:25:281:25:33

have doubled since 2013. The prison

population has also doubled and

1:25:331:25:41

suicide in prisons is higher than in

the general population. Outside of

1:25:411:25:49

prison, 120 per 100,000 of its

suicide is against 10.8 outside. The

1:25:491:26:00

Minister will perhaps respond to it

and see what we can do in relation

1:26:001:26:04

to that. The Prison Reform Trust,

prisons are more than 7000 people

1:26:041:26:10

more than capacity and assaults, the

honourable lady before me, she spoke

1:26:101:26:15

of the prison officers, very much

one of the things I am aware of

1:26:151:26:19

because of people in my

constituency, they are subject to

1:26:191:26:25

assaults on a regular basis. I am

conscious of that as well. The

1:26:251:26:30

increase in assaults, some reports

say some prisons have offices

1:26:301:26:38

outnumbered three to one. We must

develop the inmates so they are

1:26:381:26:44

beneficial members of society, those

who have unfortunately been involved

1:26:441:26:51

in assaulting prison officers, how

we change it around, the honourable

1:26:511:26:54

lady not in her place at this

moment, one of the things she

1:26:541:26:59

referred to, gardening, and some of

the work done in prisons and the

1:26:591:27:02

minister responded by giving her the

opportunity to be the judge of that.

1:27:021:27:07

There are things that can be done

but we're not seeing enough of it.

1:27:071:27:11

It is also important we must work

our hardest to prevent those who

1:27:111:27:15

have served time from becoming

repeat offenders. How important it

1:27:151:27:19

is to address that issue. It is how

we do that in a way that is

1:27:191:27:26

compassionate, direct, efficient and

works. The fact 26% of those who

1:27:261:27:30

have served time to reoffend within

six months provides us an example of

1:27:301:27:43

how prison system has failed them.

Only one in four have a job upon

1:27:431:27:46

release, only one in five employees

say they would likely exclude them

1:27:461:27:48

from the recruitment process... They

cannot get accommodation. We have

1:27:481:27:51

very important issues to address. We

are witnessing a dramatic change in

1:27:511:27:56

the operation of our prisons with

less staff being responsible. Again,

1:27:561:28:00

I say this very gently, and

hopefully graciously, but we have

1:28:001:28:06

not seen the number of staff

increasing in the prisons that we

1:28:061:28:12

should have seen. There is a dearth

of over 2000. Not enough have been

1:28:121:28:17

recruited. I believe 27% of front

line staff leave their role before

1:28:171:28:26

two years of service. What are we

doing to keep them on board? We must

1:28:261:28:31

establish a support system that

helps new staff acclimatise, not

1:28:311:28:37

simply leave. I finish with this,

the significantly higher levels of

1:28:371:28:43

mental health issues in prisons,

unbelievable 26% for women and 16%

1:28:431:28:49

of men have received or are

currently receiving treatment for

1:28:491:28:51

mental health in the first year of

their sentence, we all want the same

1:28:511:28:56

thing, everyone in the Chamber, and

it is how we achieve that. I look to

1:28:561:29:01

the Minister for his response. We

are here to sub for you.

-- to

1:29:011:29:07

support you. Before I called a

spokesman for the Scottish National

1:29:071:29:11

Party, I am sure it does not

compromise my impartiality in the

1:29:111:29:16

chair if I wish him and his

colleagues in Paisley the very best

1:29:161:29:20

of luck for the very exciting

announcement which will come out in

1:29:201:29:27

about four and a half hours' time

about which town or city will be the

1:29:271:29:35

City of Culture 2021. I hope it is

going to be Paisley. Good luck!

1:29:351:29:42

Thank you. I was concerned I would

be unable to shoehorn a mention of

1:29:421:29:54

Paisley 2021 into the prison reform

speech. Thank you, you have done it

1:29:541:29:58

for me. I will carry your wishes

back home on the flight, if I make

1:29:581:30:03

it. It is an honour to follow the

honourable member. A relatively new

1:30:031:30:09

member of the Justice Select

Committee and some of my

1:30:091:30:12

contribution today will be based on

my short experience of being a

1:30:121:30:17

member, I should know I am speaking

from the front bench of the SNP and

1:30:171:30:23

I will have to tailor my remarks

appropriately. The small matter of

1:30:231:30:27

prison reform has dominated much of

the work of the Justice Committee

1:30:271:30:31

since I was appointed after the

general election and it will

1:30:311:30:34

continue to feature heavily in the

coming weeks and months. However,

1:30:341:30:38

this work is not new to the

committee, given its good work on

1:30:381:30:42

this issue in the last session,

scrutinising reforms which have been

1:30:421:30:46

put forward by previous Justice

Secretary is, the Queen's Speech

1:30:461:30:49

earlier this year was a missed

opportunity for the Government to

1:30:491:30:52

introduce

1:30:521:31:02

a bill to continue the reforms of

the English and Welsh prison

1:31:031:31:06

services. This was unfortunate as

the evidence is clear and the

1:31:061:31:08

committee saw for itself last week

the prison service is facing very

1:31:081:31:10

real challenges in the Government

cannot be distracted by Brexit at

1:31:101:31:13

the expense of modernising the

justice systems of England and

1:31:131:31:15

Wales. Despite performance being

wide-ranging, I would like to

1:31:151:31:18

confine my remarks to attempt to

keep your blood of the criminal

1:31:181:31:22

justice system including attempts to

reduce reoffending. The goal of

1:31:221:31:25

keeping people out of prison is a

basic premise I'm sure we can all

1:31:251:31:29

agree on. It is good for the

individual but vital for wider

1:31:291:31:32

society and economy. Prison is a

route appropriate for serious crimes

1:31:321:31:39

but detaining an individual should

not be seen as an automatic result

1:31:391:31:43

for anyone who commits a crime.

Reducing the prison population is a

1:31:431:31:48

key feature of the Government's

reforms, it is easy to see why that

1:31:481:31:55

is the case. An exceedingly high

prison population is not uncommon in

1:31:551:32:00

most western democracies but it is

still worth noting the total prison

1:32:001:32:03

population in England and Wales on

the 1st of March this year was just

1:32:031:32:09

over 8500 people. The recent

population trend is cause for great

1:32:091:32:13

concern and there will be a major

influence on the reforms the

1:32:131:32:18

Government eventually introduces. An

exceedingly high prison population

1:32:181:32:22

serves little good, not good for

society, economy, the taxpayer, not

1:32:221:32:27

good for the offender in many cases

or the victim. The current prison

1:32:271:32:33

population of England and Wales

raises difficult questions and as we

1:32:331:32:36

seek to confront it, we should be

asking ourselves whether we are

1:32:361:32:40

detaining the right people or

whether the system considers prison

1:32:401:32:45

time to be the automatic outcome for

those who commit crimes. The CPS has

1:32:451:32:50

spoken of significant changes

affecting the prison service,

1:32:501:32:53

chiefly the prison population has

doubled in the last 30 years, while

1:32:531:32:57

subsequent governments have failed

to protect funding and staffing

1:32:571:33:00

numbers. It helps to create a much

more difficult, stressful and

1:33:001:33:06

dangerous working environment in the

prison service. I repeat most other

1:33:061:33:10

European countries are facing

similar problems but we should take

1:33:101:33:14

note of the Council of Europe report

concluding the UK has the highest

1:33:141:33:19

prison population rate in western

Europe. Of around 148 inmates per

1:33:191:33:25

100,000 citizens, well above the

European average of 134. In

1:33:251:33:31

Scotland, wheels face similar

challenges with our prison

1:33:311:33:34

population -- we also face. The

daily average prison population has

1:33:341:33:38

decreased in the last five years

falling by over 8% from 8179, in

1:33:381:33:49

2011-12, and in addition, in the

same period, the young offender

1:33:491:33:55

population has almost halved with

numbers for remand and sentence

1:33:551:33:58

prisoners also dropping. The

Scottish Government are not

1:33:581:34:04

complacent and at a time when crime

is at a 41 year low and reoffending

1:34:041:34:09

is the lowest in 16 years, the

prison population is still far too

1:34:091:34:13

high, particularly among female

offenders. Delighted.

Can I pay

1:34:131:34:20

tribute to my honourable friend who

has run an excellent campaign for

1:34:201:34:25

his 2021? I hope he gets the news he

is looking for tonight. I commend

1:34:251:34:30

the Scottish Government and the

Justice Secretary for the

1:34:301:34:32

progressive approach they have put

towards women in the prison system

1:34:321:34:38

and the extra money for community

justice services for women.

I could

1:34:381:34:42

not agree more. In addition to that,

we are going to close the prison in

1:34:421:34:47

2020 and demolish the old facility

and move 80, I think, women who need

1:34:471:34:56

more secure needs to a new facility

and five new community facilities,

1:34:561:35:01

such as the £1.2 million additional

investment. Another area where the

1:35:011:35:08

UK Government may want to take

inspiration from the Scottish

1:35:081:35:11

Government is the policy of a

presumption against short sentences.

1:35:111:35:16

It was recently augmented in the

programme for government and a plan

1:35:161:35:21

to consult on an extension to

presumption from three months to 12

1:35:211:35:24

months. Overwhelming evidence

confirms short sentences simply do

1:35:241:35:29

not work. They disrupt families,

communities, restrict employment

1:35:291:35:34

opportunities and make it harder for

individuals to access housing.

1:35:341:35:38

Short-term sentencing does nothing

for reoffending rates and the

1:35:381:35:41

absolute opposite is the case. They

do not make a sensible use of all

1:35:411:35:48

too scarce public resources. The

Scottish Government's extension of

1:35:481:35:52

the presumption against short

sentences has the real opportunity

1:35:521:35:56

to play Scotland at the forefront of

introducing transformative justice

1:35:561:35:58

system. Community justice Scotland

has commented on the Scottish

1:35:581:36:05

Government's policy saying, a smart

justice system replaces ineffective

1:36:051:36:09

short sentences with a focus on

addiction, mental health, poverty,

1:36:091:36:13

social exclusion and adverse

childhood experiences and recognises

1:36:131:36:17

prevention is better than cure. This

move by the Scottish Government has

1:36:171:36:22

been welcomed by the former Deputy

First Minister of Scotland and

1:36:221:36:26

Liberal Democrat peer of the other

place, the upside down, as I like to

1:36:261:36:31

call it, Lord Wallace. I think I get

away with that! He said the policy

1:36:311:36:37

was a welcome and imaginative

extension of the presumption against

1:36:371:36:40

short sentences. A former Labour

minister also supports the policy,

1:36:401:36:46

saying 60% of those imprisoned for

months or less reoffend within the

1:36:461:36:52

year. It is not only helping to

reduce the prison population but

1:36:521:36:56

doing so in a way helping to tackle

reoffending rates. The UK

1:36:561:37:04

Government's previous white paper

placed a strong emphasis on

1:37:041:37:07

preparing prisoners for life after

death sentence has come to an end

1:37:071:37:10

and helping to support them change

their behaviour. I support many of

1:37:101:37:14

the Government's names such as

tackling health and substance misuse

1:37:141:37:19

and preparing them for life after

prison and education and training

1:37:191:37:25

but it is important we fund and

support the projects, voluntary

1:37:251:37:29

groups and charities who can

effectively evidence the positive

1:37:291:37:33

impact the work has on changing the

lives of prisoners. The SNP

1:37:331:37:38

Westminster spokesperson for sport,

as someone who has always been

1:37:381:37:42

involved with sport, I believe

governments of all colours should be

1:37:421:37:45

tapping into the power of sport to

help change attitudes and

1:37:451:37:48

behaviours. Rugby man, I'm

interested in the work Saracens

1:37:481:37:53

Rugby have done to help reduce

reoffending rates. They quite

1:37:531:37:58

rightly point out 70% of young

offenders leaving prison in England

1:37:581:38:02

and Wales will reoffend within 12

months. Primarily because of lack of

1:38:021:38:10

aspirations, support and no role

models. Saracens have a programme,

1:38:101:38:15

it uses the power of rugby to

improve the life chances of young

1:38:151:38:19

people leaving prison. It looks to

build career aspirations, provide a

1:38:191:38:27

mentor, links to local sports club

and assisting educational routes and

1:38:271:38:33

employment which will in turn give

them a sense of belonging and

1:38:331:38:36

surrounds them in a positive

environment. The success rate of the

1:38:361:38:40

programme is 92%. They do not return

to crime, saving the government and

1:38:401:38:45

taxpayer £1 million per year.

1:38:451:38:53

On the website they published a

quote from a participant which said

1:38:531:38:57

the programme taught me belief and

direction and that I must be true to

1:38:571:39:02

myself to believe. This programme

and others like it show how we can

1:39:021:39:07

use the power of the bought the for

tangible benefits. Sport can help

1:39:071:39:15

rehabilitate offenders and it can

play an important mobility of role

1:39:151:39:19

that can keep people of all genders

away from reoffending. We should

1:39:191:39:25

incorporate sport into the wider

reform agenda. The UK Government

1:39:251:39:28

moves forward with reforms and it is

mindful to note that it has a

1:39:281:39:36

responsibility to wider society,

ensuring communities are safe and

1:39:361:39:38

wrong doing is dealt with in an

appropriate manner. However this

1:39:381:39:42

agenda also has a responsibility to

those working in the justice system

1:39:421:39:46

and I have to say it is the fact

that the number of serious assaults

1:39:461:39:52

on officers in Scottish prisons is

90%, 90% lower than in prisons in

1:39:521:39:56

England and Wales. This is mainly

due to the number of officers in the

1:39:561:40:00

system due to the fact that we

didn't cut the funding for officers.

1:40:001:40:05

I hope the minister can expand on

answers he gave to me recently.

1:40:051:40:10

Given the increase of more than 1300

in the prison population in England

1:40:101:40:15

and Wales, was 2500 officers enough?

The target was based on careful

1:40:151:40:21

analysis of what we need, and the

model of one prison officer having a

1:40:211:40:27

six prison caseload, and that should

be capable of allowing us to do so.

1:40:271:40:30

I would like the minister to give

more information on that. Was the

1:40:301:40:35

2500 figure arrived at assuming an

increase of 1300 in the prison

1:40:351:40:40

population? If so more prison

officers need to be hired using the

1:40:401:40:44

one in six ratio. We want to keep

people out of prison and this has

1:40:441:40:47

got to include preventative policies

that help identify and tackle those

1:40:471:40:53

at risk of offending. I can only

hope that as the UK Government moves

1:40:531:40:57

forward in this process, it will

reject going down a flawed

1:40:571:41:04

ideological driven approach and will

go down and evidence based approach,

1:41:041:41:08

taking on board recommendations made

by the Justice Secretary to ensure

1:41:081:41:11

that English and Welsh justice

systems are able to operate in an

1:41:111:41:17

efficient manner.

I would like to

begin by congratulating the justice

1:41:171:41:23

committee and its chair, the member

for Bromley and Chislehurst, and all

1:41:231:41:26

the other members of the committee

for all their work, and for securing

1:41:261:41:32

today's debate. I previously sat on

the committee and it was a most

1:41:321:41:36

valuable experience. The select

committee has repeatedly shone a

1:41:361:41:41

spotlight on the ongoing crisis

affecting much of our justice system

1:41:411:41:43

and I do believe its work will

become more important over the

1:41:431:41:47

coming months, given that the MOJ

budget is set to be cut by another

1:41:471:41:53

£800 million, meaning 40% over the

decade to 2020, making the MOJ the

1:41:531:41:57

most cut of any government

department. That's turning to

1:41:571:42:02

today's topic, our prisons have

received vast amount of media

1:42:021:42:05

coverage over the last year, nearly

always the wrong reasons. Crisis has

1:42:051:42:10

been used time after time as a

descriptive but I believe it is no

1:42:101:42:14

longer sufficient. We have warned of

crisis for five years. Crisis is

1:42:141:42:20

unfortunately the new norm. Staff

holding the service together are

1:42:201:42:23

expected to do crisis management and

the truth is that our prisons are

1:42:231:42:27

now moving beyond crisis and

approaching emergency. As Peter

1:42:271:42:31

Clarke, the chief inspector of

prisons, with whom I had the

1:42:311:42:35

pleasure of undertaking a prison

visit, described in his scathing

1:42:351:42:39

annual report, last year I reported

that too many of our prisons have

1:42:391:42:43

become unacceptably violent and

dangerous places. The situation has

1:42:431:42:47

not improved. In fact it has become

worse. Peter Clarke went on to warn

1:42:471:42:53

that not one young offender

institute was deemed safe,

1:42:531:42:57

describing the speed of decline is

staggering. He described a

1:42:571:43:02

Dickensian prison system with

people, in his words, locked up for

1:43:021:43:05

as much a 23 hours a day, compounded

by staffing levels that are too low

1:43:051:43:10

to keep order or run a decent regime

that allows prisoners to be let out

1:43:101:43:14

of their cells for training and

education. I would argue, Madam

1:43:141:43:20

Deputy Speaker, that it is a

government policy of slashing

1:43:201:43:22

hundreds of millions from the prison

service budget that has driven us to

1:43:221:43:25

the emergency room. But perhaps the

starkest example of the prisons

1:43:251:43:30

emergency is what the joint select

committee in its sixth report of the

1:43:301:43:36

session described as the ongoing at

rapid deterioration in prison

1:43:361:43:39

safety. I think the justice select

committee was right to call it that.

1:43:391:43:46

It is a stain on our nation that

self harm and suicide are at record

1:43:461:43:49

levels. And assaults are up almost

80% on 2010. Everyday we now have 74

1:43:491:43:57

people attacked in our prisons,

which is one every 20 minutes,

1:43:571:44:01

morning, noon and night. Every

single day of the year. And the

1:44:011:44:07

consequences, Madam Deputy Speaker,

of this violence, are dire. For the

1:44:071:44:12

prisoners locked nearly permanently

in their cells to maintain safety,

1:44:121:44:16

it is almost irrelevant if

education, training or mental health

1:44:161:44:21

services are improved, because

locked in their cells for that

1:44:211:44:23

amount of time, they remain

inaccessible, at great cost for the

1:44:231:44:27

wider society. This violence is

closely connected to another scene

1:44:271:44:32

addressed by the select committee,

empowering governors and prison

1:44:321:44:36

reforms. The government talks reform

agenda delivering a modern prison

1:44:361:44:41

state set for the 21st century, of

governors managing education budgets

1:44:411:44:47

to help rebuild at eight reason is

that none of this will bear fruit

1:44:471:44:52

until the epidemic of violence is

tackled. The central cause of the

1:44:521:44:56

prisons emergency has been the loss

of staff. Conservative Justice

1:44:561:45:02

Secretary and cut the number of

front line prison officers by 7000

1:45:021:45:05

since 2010. Psychoactive substances,

drones and phones, they are all

1:45:051:45:13

serious problems in our prisons, but

as the POA says, staffing shortages

1:45:131:45:18

drive the wave of violence. I

welcome that the government now

1:45:181:45:22

acknowledges the damage done by

thousands of prison officers cuts

1:45:221:45:28

and has tried to reverse its own

cuts but the staffing picture is not

1:45:281:45:32

as rosy as the government is seeking

to portray it. Despite 1200 extra

1:45:321:45:39

officers recruited over the past

year, still one in four of our

1:45:391:45:43

prisons have had a fall in officer

numbers over the past 12 months.

1:45:431:45:47

That includes staffing cuts at 25%

of the prisons labelled as being of

1:45:471:45:54

concern and in high security prisons

it is even worse. Half of those

1:45:541:45:57

prisons have fewer officers than

they had a year ago. And for all the

1:45:571:46:02

talk of empowering governors, the

number of Governor grade staff has

1:46:021:46:06

been cut by over a third and

continues to fall. And staffing

1:46:061:46:12

cannot be permanently resolved

separately to the issue of pay. The

1:46:121:46:16

insulting 1.7% recent pay offer was

yet another real firms pay cut, one

1:46:161:46:21

of £980 per year for the average

prison officer. Falling pay is one

1:46:211:46:27

of the reasons why there is an

exodus of experienced officers who

1:46:271:46:30

are now leaving at three times the

rate they were leaving back in 2010.

1:46:301:46:34

It is why the government policies

are creating a dangerous cocktail of

1:46:341:46:42

experienced prisoners and

inexperienced prison staff. Today's

1:46:421:46:45

motion also addresses the wider

restructuring of our prisons system.

1:46:451:46:50

The government has destabilised the

prison system, I would argue,

1:46:501:46:55

through an erratic perform policy

that feared first this way and then

1:46:551:46:58

that way. At the same time as

prisons were being stripped of

1:46:581:47:03

valuable resources, both human and

financial. This hasn't been helped

1:47:031:47:07

by the constant chopping and

changing of those at the top. I have

1:47:071:47:12

been Shadow Justice Secretary for

just over 18 months and I have

1:47:121:47:15

already dealt with three Justice

Secretary, each with their own

1:47:151:47:19

specific vision of course. One of

the current Secretary of State's

1:47:191:47:26

first tasks was to toss aside the

prison reform bill and the creation

1:47:261:47:30

of the statutory purpose of prisons,

which is especially regrettable

1:47:301:47:33

since it had the support of

virtually the whole House. But

1:47:331:47:37

although they have scrapped the

bill, one thing remains the same.

1:47:371:47:41

The government's answer to the deep

problems in the prison service is

1:47:411:47:46

yet more reform. Madam Deputy

Speaker, I am a bit sceptical.

1:47:461:47:50

Concerns with how reform have been

undertaken work especially well

1:47:501:47:54

expressed by the governors

association President who said that

1:47:541:48:01

governors have seen nothing tangible

coming out of the MOJ to ease the

1:48:011:48:04

burden to date. They claim that the

MOJ reform programme drains

1:48:041:48:10

resources with expensive policy

teams in Whitehall and operational

1:48:101:48:15

experts taken out our prisons and

put into the MOJ, and competing

1:48:151:48:18

structures that at times do

undermine accountability. In short,

1:48:181:48:24

if real powers rest in new Whitehall

teams, if budgets are cut and

1:48:241:48:29

central contracts restrict freedom

of decision, then governors are not

1:48:291:48:32

in charge in the way that they

should be. So despite talks of

1:48:321:48:38

greater autonomy, prison governors

are still suffering the lack of

1:48:381:48:42

control that arose from outsourcing

key prison services to the private

1:48:421:48:45

sector. The hiving off of facility

management and repairs is

1:48:451:48:49

undermining basic decency in our

prisons when prisons are remarking

1:48:491:48:54

it is easy to get drugs than it is

to get clean clothing. When

1:48:541:48:58

prisoners go for long periods

without properly functioning showers

1:48:581:49:02

or a broken cell window, this does

nothing to build the necessary

1:49:021:49:07

institutional trust. It actually

makes reforming lives much harder.

1:49:071:49:14

So Labour hasn't just ruled out any

more private prisons, we have also

1:49:141:49:17

committed to a review working with

prison governors to identify the

1:49:171:49:22

private maintenance and repair

contracts that can be brought back

1:49:221:49:25

in-house overtime which would save

the state money and improve prison

1:49:251:49:29

conditions. I heard the chair of the

justice select committee called for

1:49:291:49:33

an urgent review of these same

contracts in the questions earlier

1:49:331:49:39

this week and on this side of the

House we fully support his call.

1:49:391:49:44

Madam Deputy Speaker, today's motion

quite rightly points out our

1:49:441:49:50

historically high prison population.

Prison last act as a deterrent and

1:49:501:49:54

other punishment, yes. Often prison

is a fitting sanction, especially

1:49:541:49:59

when a convicted person is a danger

to the public. A significant

1:49:591:50:03

minority of people may never be safe

to release. But most people will one

1:50:031:50:07

day lead prison so it must also

rehabilitate. Too often prison is

1:50:071:50:15

failing to rehabilitate. We now have

10,004 prisoners in jails than we

1:50:151:50:19

have proper places for them. --

10,000 more prisoners. With

1:50:191:50:25

imitation can't properly take place

in overcrowded prisons. The prison

1:50:251:50:29

in Leeds holds twice the number of

prisoners it was built to

1:50:291:50:32

accommodate. That is not an

exception. The latest figures show

1:50:321:50:36

that almost seven in ten of our

prisons are overcrowded. Such

1:50:361:50:41

warehousing of people without any

support or access to rehabilitation

1:50:411:50:44

means that when they leave prison,

they are likely to be in the same

1:50:441:50:48

position as when they entered, or

actually perhaps even worse, drug

1:50:481:50:54

dependent, homeless, without the

skills to secure work. Best day in

1:50:541:51:05

prison will be too short to tackle

their problems. In fact they may

1:51:051:51:07

actually come out of prison more

likely to commit serious crimes. I

1:51:071:51:10

have been struck by the fact that

nearly every time they meet a prison

1:51:101:51:13

governor, they tell me we are

jailing too many people. That is

1:51:131:51:15

what prison governors are telling

me. They ask me why we are using

1:51:151:51:19

vast resources to send someone to

prison for a few weeks. They are

1:51:191:51:23

frustrated at seeing the same people

over and over when people at the

1:51:231:51:26

front line raise such matters we

must all take them very seriously.

1:51:261:51:34

The evidence underlines that for far

too many, prison isn't working. Six

1:51:341:51:40

in ten adults released from prison

after a sentence of less than ten

1:51:401:51:43

months, which over half of all

prisoners receive, commit another

1:51:431:51:47

offence within a year. The cost of

reoffending has now hit £15 billion.

1:51:471:51:52

As a society, I think we need to be

asking if we should have jailed 8000

1:51:521:51:57

women last year when the

overwhelming majority of those 8000

1:51:571:52:02

women committed nonviolent offence.

Half of them in prison for that. If

1:52:021:52:09

Britain is about real imitation as

well as punishment, what is the

1:52:091:52:11

point of seven in ten women serving

12 weeks or less in jail? -- if

1:52:111:52:19

prison is about rehabilitation as

well as punishment. Alternatives to

1:52:191:52:22

that could free up valuable

resources to invest in women's

1:52:221:52:27

centres, community solutions, and to

make prison work for those who

1:52:271:52:30

really should be there. We also need

to tackle discrimination that means

1:52:301:52:36

there is a greater

disproportionality in a number of

1:52:361:52:38

black people in our prisons and

there is in the prisons in the

1:52:381:52:42

United States of America. It wastes

lives as well as viable public

1:52:421:52:47

funding. There are too many

prisoners suffering mental health

1:52:471:52:52

problems who need intensive medical

treatment, not incarceration, and

1:52:521:52:56

perhaps most immediately, the cases

of IPP prisoners that need to be

1:52:561:53:01

tackled as well. We need to be

debating all three issues separately

1:53:011:53:05

on another occasion in this chamber.

In conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker,

1:53:051:53:09

we have a huge amount to do to turn

our prisons round, to ensure they

1:53:091:53:14

are places where lives are

transformed so that our communities

1:53:141:53:20

become safer places to live, which

is our main objective. After nearly

1:53:201:53:24

a decade of failed policies that

have cut our prison service to the

1:53:241:53:27

bone, this can't be done and would

be done overnight, but I do know

1:53:271:53:32

that the justice select committee

and their ongoing scrutiny will play

1:53:321:53:36

a valuable role in helping make our

prisons work.

1:53:361:53:41

Thank you. Let me begin by

congratulating my honourable friend

1:53:411:53:47

and member and indeed the Justice

Select Committee for securing this

1:53:471:53:53

debate and I thank them for all the

contributions. I can genuinely say

1:53:531:53:59

almost every contribution today has

been in good faith and constructive

1:53:591:54:04

and has had something to merit it.

My honourable friend, the member for

1:54:041:54:14

Bromley, set out with characteristic

clarity many of the issues our

1:54:141:54:17

prisons face today. As we all know,

and indeed the member for Leeds

1:54:171:54:23

mentioned, nearly all prisoners will

one day be released and our prisons

1:54:231:54:26

should therefore be places that put

offenders on a path to turn away

1:54:261:54:31

from crime after release, providing

an environment that is safe and

1:54:311:54:36

secure and provide the right

interventions and support to help

1:54:361:54:39

them turn around their lives. No one

doubts the challenge we face in

1:54:391:54:45

prison or can expect this will be

quick or easy to turn around. I do

1:54:451:54:50

not shy away from conceding our

prison system faces unprecedented

1:54:501:54:53

challenges. But I am confident we

have a clear and coherent plan to

1:54:531:55:00

phase them, a plan to ensure safety

and security of our estate and

1:55:001:55:05

staff, empower our governors to make

decision is right for their prisons,

1:55:051:55:09

the right tools in place to support

offenders to rejoin society as

1:55:091:55:14

productive citizens. The member for

Lewisham West and the member for

1:55:141:55:21

Paisley who was no longer in his

place referred to the motion and

1:55:211:55:26

specific point that the House ...

The present operation is too high,

1:55:261:55:36

we can all agree and we want it to

come down. -- the prison population.

1:55:361:55:42

We have made a judgment not to set

an arbitrary target because we will

1:55:421:55:47

not compromise our responsibility

either to the victims of offences or

1:55:471:55:50

the safety of the wider public. We

will always hold in prison criminals

1:55:501:55:56

whose offences are so grave no other

penalty will suffice or pose a

1:55:561:56:01

genuine threat to the public if they

were released. The member for

1:56:011:56:05

Paisley mentioned we should have a

presumption against a prison

1:56:051:56:12

sentence of less than 12 months.

Indeed the case in England and Wales

1:56:121:56:17

is there is a presumption against

custody at all and the judge would

1:56:171:56:22

only send someone to prison if they

deemed it right to do so. It is

1:56:221:56:28

important to remember our current

prison population also reflects the

1:56:281:56:33

number of serious offences including

sexual offences coming before the

1:56:331:56:36

courts. This has changed the nature

of the sentences we are seeing with

1:56:361:56:40

fewer people being sent to prison on

shorter sentences, but more people

1:56:401:56:46

in prison for serious on longer

sentences. One example, 4000 more

1:56:461:56:51

six offenders in prison in England

and Wales than there were in 2010. I

1:56:511:56:56

can assure the House we will lose

have enough prison places for

1:56:561:57:00

offenders sentenced custody and the

protection of the public in

1:57:001:57:05

providing justice to victims will

remain our principal concern. Our

1:57:051:57:10

latest to statistics show we have

operational capacity of 87,370 and

1:57:101:57:15

current headroom of 1241 places. The

current population is 86,000 1209

1:57:151:57:22

including 4400 and... 4048 women

prisoners. We cannot simply build

1:57:221:57:30

our way out of the situation. We

have a plan for bringing new

1:57:301:57:35

capacity to provide modern,

cost-effective and fit for purpose

1:57:351:57:39

accommodation to deal with the

overcrowding concerns mentioned in

1:57:391:57:42

this estate. A prison which

currently has 800 places in use when

1:57:421:57:48

fully operational will provide 2100

places and we have announced plans

1:57:481:57:53

to build four more modern prisons.

But to address the challenges in our

1:57:531:58:02

prison system, I am clear that we

must first...

He has talked about

1:58:021:58:08

capacity and I understand that the

work being done but can he help

1:58:081:58:11

about specific point raised which is

the slowness in repatriation of

1:58:111:58:16

foreign national prisoners, that

would take some pressure off

1:58:161:58:20

capacity, can he help on that?

The

chairman makes an important point

1:58:201:58:25

about the repatriation of foreign

national offenders. He is very aware

1:58:251:58:29

the most effective scheme to

repatriate foreign offenders is the

1:58:291:58:34

scheme under which many have been

moved out of the UK since 2010. The

1:58:341:58:41

prisoner transfer agreements are

also in place and that is more

1:58:411:58:44

challenging because it requires the

cooperation of the receiving

1:58:441:58:47

government who do not always seem to

be that keen to receive their

1:58:471:58:51

criminals back but there is a cross

government task force focused on

1:58:511:58:55

this very point. To realise the

vision for prisons, we must make

1:58:551:59:00

sure they are secure environments,

free from drugs, violence and

1:59:001:59:05

intimidation. I do not shy away from

acknowledging the use and

1:59:051:59:09

availability of drugs is too high

and this House has often discuss the

1:59:091:59:14

rise of psychoactive substances in

the prisons being a game changer.

1:59:141:59:18

But it was when organised crime

moved to take control of supply

1:59:181:59:23

routes in prisons that the situation

changed. They are driving the drug

1:59:231:59:31

market and making enormous profits,

peddling misery to those around

1:59:311:59:36

them. The activities have been

facilitated by new technologies such

1:59:361:59:40

as phones and drones which they have

used to try to overcome security.

1:59:401:59:46

These represent an unprecedented

threat that we have not faced

1:59:461:59:49

before. As our prison officers and

law enforcement partners across the

1:59:491:59:55

country are regularly proving, we

are more than up to the task of the

1:59:551:59:59

challenge and the investment in

security is bearing fruit. Last

1:59:592:00:02

year, HMP offices recovered over 225

kilograms of drugs from the prison

2:00:022:00:08

estate and the new team of

specialist drug investigators have

2:00:082:00:12

already helped secure over 50 years

of jail time for those involved and

2:00:122:00:18

we are supporting ongoing

investigations across the country.

2:00:182:00:20

Providing officers with the tools

they need, introducing drug tests

2:00:202:00:26

for psychoactive substances across

prisons, providing every prison with

2:00:262:00:30

detection equipment and training

more than 300 sniffer dogs

2:00:302:00:32

specifically to detect drugs. A

member asked about the availability

2:00:322:00:39

of sniffer dogs specifically to

prisons, the dogs operate on a

2:00:392:00:43

regional basis and are therefore

available to prisons to call on as

2:00:432:00:47

and when they need them. We are also

investing heavily in security and

2:00:472:00:53

counter-terror measures including 25

million to create the new security

2:00:532:00:59

directorate in HMP PS. We will also

invest over 14 million this year to

2:00:592:01:05

transform intelligence, such an

disruption capability at local,

2:01:052:01:09

national and regional level to

better identify and root out those

2:01:092:01:12

who seek to supply drugs to prisons.

This investment includes over 3

2:01:122:01:18

million to establish the serious

organised crime unit to relentlessly

2:01:182:01:21

disrupt our most subversive

offenders. We are already seeing

2:01:212:01:24

early successes from this new

capability and a recent joint prison

2:01:242:01:28

service and police operation at HMP

Hewell involving specialist search

2:01:282:01:33

teams and dogs recovered 323 items

including 79 mobile phones, 29

2:01:332:01:40

improvised weapons, 50 litres of

alcohol and a large quantity of

2:01:402:01:44

drugs.

He has indicated this is all

intelligence led, but actually, it

2:01:442:01:53

should be routine.

The honourable

member is absolutely right, but you

2:01:532:02:02

need to know what you're looking

for, identified the prison most

2:02:022:02:08

likely to have links with organised

crime, 6000 have links with

2:02:082:02:12

organised crime on the outside and

they are conduits for drugs into

2:02:122:02:16

prisons and it allows us to be more

effective in what we do to combat

2:02:162:02:20

it. It is still very early days but

the point I'm making is we are

2:02:202:02:26

seeing success and we intend to

build on the successes going forward

2:02:262:02:29

with new plans for drugs which the

honourable member mentioned but also

2:02:292:02:34

issues to do with corruption, where

it exists, even among few officers,

2:02:342:02:39

and we will talk more about that

shortly. Of course, on drugs, it is

2:02:392:02:44

not just about seizing or

intercepting drugs, we have a duty

2:02:442:02:50

of care to prisoners, we want to

help those offenders with drug

2:02:502:02:55

problems and we have more specialist

wings to support them to overcome

2:02:552:02:59

dependencies. We are working closely

with health partners to provide

2:02:592:03:02

information, guidance and support to

prisoners, visitors and staff on the

2:03:022:03:07

impact and damaging consequences of

drugs. Safety of our prisoners has

2:03:072:03:11

been mentioned by a number of

honourable members. That is in part

2:03:112:03:15

down to having the right staffing

levels to deliver safe, consistent

2:03:152:03:19

regime is and we are making swift

progress in recruiting the

2:03:192:03:24

additional 2500 staff in the adult

estate we promised in 2016. 1255

2:03:242:03:30

extra prison officers have been

recruited over the last year and

2:03:302:03:33

officer numbers are now at the

highest level since August, 2013. In

2:03:332:03:39

the use estate, we are likewise

expanding front line staff capacity

2:03:392:03:44

in the public sector by about 20% --

in the youth estate. Preventing

2:03:442:03:49

suicide and self harm is also a

focus of mine and we are taking

2:03:492:03:53

decisive action to reduce the levels

of self harm by strengthening the

2:03:532:03:57

front line. Each individual incident

of suicide or self harm is one too

2:03:572:04:03

many and a source of deep tragedy.

We have new prevention training to

2:04:032:04:08

give everyone working in prisons,

officers and staff, other

2:04:082:04:14

organisations working in prisons,

giving them the confidence and

2:04:142:04:16

skills to support people in their

care. So far, more than 10,000

2:04:162:04:21

prison staff have started the

training and all new prison officers

2:04:212:04:26

and prison custody officer recruits

now complete the programme is part

2:04:262:04:30

of initial training. I am glad to

say the number of self-inflicted

2:04:302:04:34

deaths in custody is significantly

down from last year, although I will

2:04:342:04:38

be the first to admit that there is

still a lot of work to be done. The

2:04:382:04:45

chairman of the select committee

referred to the architecture of the

2:04:452:04:47

prison system and how we can hold

ourselves to account, we are

2:04:472:04:54

strengthening the ability of the

inspector to hold the Government and

2:04:542:04:57

the prison service to account, we

have introduced a new urgent

2:04:572:05:01

notification process which had

formed part of the original bill to

2:05:012:05:06

enable the Secretary of State to be

alerted directly in cases where the

2:05:062:05:11

chief inspector has a significant

and urgent concern about the

2:05:112:05:15

performance of an individual

institution. We launched the process

2:05:152:05:18

last month, the Secretary of State

will be directly alerted by the

2:05:182:05:22

chief inspector if an urgent issue

needs addressing to ensure

2:05:222:05:26

recommendations are acted upon

immediately. A new team of

2:05:262:05:31

specialists accountable to ministers

will ensure immediate action is

2:05:312:05:34

taken along with responding within

28 days with a more in-depth plan to

2:05:342:05:40

ensure we see sustained improvement

for the prison in the long term. I

2:05:402:05:43

give way.

A lot of this sounds like

firefighting and the report I quoted

2:05:432:05:49

from and tomorrow we have the

report, I don't know if he has seen

2:05:492:05:55

that yet, it is under embargo store,

but it shows endemic long-term

2:05:552:05:59

problems that need really powerful

solutions -- it is under embargo

2:05:592:06:06

still. I do not hear that coming

from the Government at all.

The

2:06:062:06:10

honourable gentleman is being

unfair. Recruiting more staff,

2:06:102:06:14

investing in intelligence,

technology, a drug strategy,

2:06:142:06:19

introducing urgent notification

processes, giving more power to the

2:06:192:06:23

Inspectorate, these are things which

will solve the issues in our

2:06:232:06:26

prisons. I hear him on the issues of

scrubs, there are deep-seated

2:06:262:06:31

challenges there and I admit there

are, but prisons are and have always

2:06:312:06:35

been difficult places to manage and

they will be so but there is

2:06:352:06:39

significant investment going in to

tackle the problems we have in our

2:06:392:06:43

prisons and as I have always said,

it will not be done overnight, but

2:06:432:06:47

the actions I am outlining today

show our determination and our will

2:06:472:06:54

to overcome these problems to make

sure prisons are places of safety

2:06:542:06:57

but also of reform which is why when

it comes to employment and education

2:06:572:07:01

which has been touched on in this

debate, we have recently announced a

2:07:012:07:06

new network which will be a broker

between prisons and also the

2:07:062:07:12

employment sector to make sure they

can get work on release, but also

2:07:122:07:17

better on a purposeful activity in

prisons. The member did mention that

2:07:172:07:22

sometimes the drug habit is because

prisoners on board. Having better,

2:07:222:07:26

purposeful activity is absolutely

important, not just for making sure

2:07:262:07:32

they are occupied, so they gain

skills, but also have a better

2:07:322:07:35

chance of getting a job on release.

The member quite rightly raised the

2:07:352:07:40

issue about the estate and what is

happening. Yes, the plan is to

2:07:402:07:46

create 10,000 additional places. Of

course, there have been issues

2:07:462:07:50

around maintenance, that is an issue

to do with the facilities managers.

2:07:502:07:54

I am in direct contact to make sure

that whatever the future plans for a

2:07:542:07:59

prison are, we are maintaining the

prison so that the standards of

2:07:592:08:08

decency in our prisons still remain

the case, whatever the plan for the

2:08:082:08:11

prison is further down the line. In

conclusion, reducing reoffending,

2:08:112:08:14

protecting the public, reforming

offenders, ensuring the safety and

2:08:142:08:18

security staff and in custody, it

remains the top priority of my

2:08:182:08:22

department.

I am very grateful. I

appreciate the remarks and the

2:08:222:08:29

spirit of them. Can he confirmed

that at such time as a legislative

2:08:292:08:34

opportunity may occur, the

Government would place the power of

2:08:342:08:39

the Inspectorate as a whole, the

ombudsman, on a statutory basis?

I

2:08:392:08:44

can confirm we are very alive and

looking for legislative

2:08:442:08:50

opportunities to do exactly what he

said and the chairman of the select

2:08:502:08:55

committee will be aware there are

other avenues, for example, a

2:08:552:08:59

Private Members' Bill, to enable us

to switch off mobile phones, that is

2:08:592:09:03

going through the House. Also,

making practical progress without

2:09:032:09:07

legislation, where we can, we are

doing so. We must break the ongoing

2:09:072:09:12

cycle of reoffending that has

blighted communities the length of

2:09:122:09:14

our country by helping offenders

turn their lives around and prepared

2:09:142:09:19

them for a productive and

law-abiding life on release. I

2:09:192:09:23

withdrew reiterate some of the

remarks I made at the start.

2:09:232:09:26

Reforming our prisons to be places

of safety and reform will not be

2:09:262:09:30

easy. But the House should be in no

doubt of the energy and resolve with

2:09:302:09:34

which we will continue to take head

on the challenges faced. I welcome

2:09:342:09:41

the points made today, very

constructive, although I disagree on

2:09:412:09:46

a number of issues with the

opposition spokesperson, but I know

2:09:462:09:49

we all share the same intention

which is that we want our prisons to

2:09:492:09:52

be places of safety and actually

have people coming out of prison who

2:09:522:09:57

do not reoffend again.

2:09:572:10:03

Can I thank the 14 backbench

colleagues who have contributed to

2:10:032:10:07

this debate? I appreciate the spirit

of the ministers' response and I

2:10:072:10:14

look forward to working with him

going forward. I don't think he has

2:10:142:10:18

answered all of the questions raised

in the debate. That is partly a

2:10:182:10:22

matter of time and partly because we

need to continue to press the

2:10:222:10:24

government on a number of these

matters but we look forward to doing

2:10:242:10:27

that as we go forward. Since there

is a lot of speculation today about

2:10:272:10:32

what people do or do not have framed

and put on their walls under various

2:10:322:10:37

contexts, perhaps I might commend

the minister want to go on his wall

2:10:372:10:40

which is a comment made by Thomas

Mott Osborne when he took over

2:10:402:10:47

responsibility for a New York

penitentiary which was we are going

2:10:472:10:52

to turn this jail from the scrapheap

in a repair yard. That wouldn't be a

2:10:522:10:56

bad thing to have on the wall of

every prison governor's office and

2:10:562:11:04

at the MOJ.

As many as are of the

opinion say "aye", to the contrary

2:11:042:11:09

"no". The ayes have it. The ayes

have it. We now come to the

2:11:092:11:18

backbench debate on the UK fishing

industry. Before I call the proposer

2:11:182:11:25

to move the motion, it will be

obvious to the House that a great

2:11:252:11:28

many people wish to speak this

afternoon and there is limited time,

2:11:282:11:33

so there will be an immediate limit

on backbench speeches of five

2:11:332:11:36

minutes. Mrs Cheryl Murray.

I beg to

move that this House has considered

2:11:362:11:48

the UK fishing industry. It is a

tradition that at the beginning of

2:11:482:11:52

December MPs debate the UK fishing

industry. This gives us the

2:11:522:11:56

opportunity not only to raise

matters relating to the UK industry

2:11:562:12:00

as a whole but also to reflect on

the proposals for the total

2:12:002:12:04

allowable catches for next year

which are discussed at the December

2:12:042:12:09

Council of ministers. I would like

to take the opportunity to thank the

2:12:092:12:12

backbench business committee for

granting the time of this very

2:12:122:12:15

important debate and

2:12:152:12:26

indeed the fact it is here in the

chamber. We have on occasions in the

2:12:352:12:38

past had the debate in Westminster

Hall. Madam Deputy Speaker, the

2:12:382:12:40

fishing industry is a dangerous

practice and my thoughts are with

2:12:402:12:43

those fishermen and their families

who have suffered loss and injury

2:12:432:12:45

during the past year. I would also

like to thank those in the rescue

2:12:452:12:48

services including the RNLI, the

coastguards and the volunteers for

2:12:482:12:50

their selfless service to sea

rescue. I would also like to thank

2:12:502:12:52

the fishermen's mission for the work

they carry out in supporting

2:12:522:12:54

fishermen and their families in

times where they find hard times.

2:12:542:12:56

The result of the referendum was

well received by fisherfolk. Whoever

2:12:562:13:00

I speak to, they are viewing the

future with optimism. Thomas in my

2:13:002:13:06

constituency has informed me that

they have many offers for vessels on

2:13:062:13:12

their books. We have heard the

Secretary of State confirm on many

2:13:122:13:15

occasions that at the end of March

2019, the UK will leave the Common

2:13:152:13:20

fisheries policy, and as a result of

this will mean that my honourable

2:13:202:13:23

friend will be able to make

decisions relating to the marine

2:13:232:13:28

environment and catches of species

without attending the meeting in

2:13:282:13:31

Brussels is happening with 27 other

member states. I will give way.

I

2:13:312:13:39

just wonder if she can reaffirm that

the day we leave the EU there will

2:13:392:13:43

be no more negotiations, no more

trading off? We will be out of the

2:13:432:13:48

common fisheries policy and then we

decide how to cooperate with other

2:13:482:13:52

countries over our fishing that we

will take back our fishing control

2:13:522:13:55

on the day we leave?

As far as I am

aware, we leave the EU and we leave

2:13:552:14:02

the common fisheries policy. The EU

has also given notice that it will

2:14:022:14:06

be withdrawing from the 1964 London

convention which gave restricted

2:14:062:14:09

access to the 12 mile limit to some

other nations. The limit is as

2:14:092:14:16

prescribed in the 1976 fisheries

limits act but the rules for the

2:14:162:14:20

management of the conservation of

fish stocks and the amount of fish

2:14:202:14:24

that can be taken will be governed

once we leave under the United

2:14:242:14:27

Nations convention on the law of the

sea and in particular article 60

2:14:272:14:32

one, 62 and 60 three. There is a

very clear distinction between them

2:14:322:14:39

in as much as the UK will be free of

the principle of equal access to a

2:14:392:14:45

common resource upon which the CFP

is based.

Will this allow us to

2:14:452:14:53

better manage our sea bass stocks

both for commercial and recreational

2:14:532:14:57

fishermen as well?

My arable friend

might be interested because I am

2:14:572:15:02

going to come onto that. There is a

very clear distinction between the

2:15:022:15:08

CFP and the other. Article 61 says

we must be responsible to set

2:15:082:15:16

conservation measures taking account

of the scientific information

2:15:162:15:19

available. This often comes from the

well-respected international Council

2:15:192:15:23

for the exploration of the sea. A

body that CFAS works with. Article

2:15:232:15:34

62 states at the coastal state, in

our case the UK, shall set the

2:15:342:15:38

amount of fish that can be taken

from our exclusive economic zone and

2:15:382:15:43

determine whether our fleet are able

to catch it all and if we cannot we

2:15:432:15:47

can offer surplus to other nations

who must comply with any

2:15:472:15:50

conservation measures that we have

set. Interestingly, Article 62,

2:15:502:15:57

paragraph four, says the coastal

state can set rules concerning the

2:15:572:16:00

landing of all or part of the catch

of these vessels imports of the

2:16:002:16:05

coastal state. It is worth noting

this could have a real economic

2:16:052:16:09

benefit, in some instances, for the

UK. Article 63 says when it stock

2:16:092:16:15

occurs in an adjacent EU said, each

coastal state should work together

2:16:152:16:20

to set conservation measures. -- an

adjacent EEZ. A good example of this

2:16:202:16:34

attachment is a farmer who is

harvesting crops in his fields. He

2:16:342:16:38

doesn't invite his neighbours to

come in and take those crops free of

2:16:382:16:43

charge. Madam Deputy Speaker,

according to a report by the

2:16:432:16:46

university of the Highlands and

Islands in 2016, overall, EU boats

2:16:462:16:52

landed more than ten times fish and

shellfish, six times more bite

2:16:522:16:58

argue, from the UK EEZ than UK

posted from the EU EEZ. For most

2:16:582:17:03

member states, the imbalance was

even greater. Iceland retains around

2:17:032:17:08

90% benefit as a nation from their

fisheries in their attached zones.

2:17:082:17:13

Norway, 84%. In contrast, the UK

secures a mere 40%, which can be

2:17:132:17:21

attributed to the common fisheries

policy. We give away 60% of the fish

2:17:212:17:29

in our zone. Free to other nations.

Can I ask the minister if he has

2:17:292:17:36

ensured that the historical catch

data from all EU vessels which have

2:17:362:17:40

fish in the UK EEZ has been

collected? This could provide the

2:17:402:17:45

basis for increased benefit in the

UK zone once we leave the European

2:17:452:17:49

Union. And UK vessels and our

fishermen. We are able to offer any

2:17:492:18:03

unutilised quotas for other

countries. UK fishermen must come

2:18:032:18:10

first. There will be increased

catching opportunity. Once achieved,

2:18:102:18:18

that opens up the happy possibility

of managing fisheries innovatively,

2:18:182:18:26

looking to optimise benefit for our

nation, and its communities across

2:18:262:18:30

the sea food chain. The range of

options is huge. These can be

2:18:302:18:35

properly discussed when enabling

opportunity is secure. I use the

2:18:352:18:41

words of Bertie Armstrong, the

Scottish fishermen is federation

2:18:412:18:44

chief executive, when I say don't

stress over choosing wallpaper

2:18:442:18:51

before we have bought the flat. I

would like to turn to effort control

2:18:512:18:55

in place of quota. Under the CFP we

have a management system comprising

2:18:552:19:00

quotas and effort control in the

form of kilowatt of days. Can the

2:19:002:19:04

minister confirmed that once we

withdraw from the CFP, he will move

2:19:042:19:11

away from and simplifies this

confusing system of fisheries

2:19:112:19:14

management? Furthermore, many

fishermen and I have spoken to are

2:19:142:19:17

not in favour of days at sea scheme

but it does warrant further

2:19:172:19:20

investigation. And can I ask the

minister, had he spoken to his

2:19:202:19:26

counterpart in the Faroe Islands who

operate the days system to see how

2:19:262:19:30

their management system works? And

has he consulted with CFAS to ask

2:19:302:19:37

their views on the days at sea

scheme versus greater? I would like

2:19:372:19:42

now to turn to the 12 mile limit.

Many onshore fishermen have

2:19:422:19:46

expressed concern about access to

the UK six and 12 mile limit by

2:19:462:19:50

other member states were certain

species. There appears to have been

2:19:502:19:55

a disproportionate access to the UK

six and 12 mile limit for over 40

2:19:552:20:00

years and this must stop. Many

onshore vessels are unable to

2:20:002:20:04

migrate and have found themselves

competing with many larger vessels

2:20:042:20:08

from other nations in the same

waters. Will my honourable friend

2:20:082:20:13

give to thought to exclusive access

for small UK fishermen to our 12

2:20:132:20:18

mile limit when considering any post

CFP management regime? Turning to

2:20:182:20:27

the Council of ministers this year,

it would appear that a number of

2:20:272:20:31

species have no quota proposed and

the available quota for the UK fleet

2:20:312:20:37

will increase. It was also

heartening to know that there has

2:20:372:20:40

been a Sirius uplift of

opportunities resulting in better

2:20:402:20:46

quotas from the EU and Norway talks.

-- serious uplift. But in areas off

2:20:462:20:53

the south-west coast, I am surprised

that the quota for Dover Sole has

2:20:532:20:56

not followed the ICES

recommendations. And the amount of <

2:20:562:21:06

tests have suggested. The south-west

fishery organisation has also

2:21:062:21:10

expressed concern regarding the

sprat stocks in this area. The ICES

2:21:102:21:14

advice still points to it being

outside biological limits. This is

2:21:142:21:21

the area that my honourable friend

mentioned. There are two points of

2:21:212:21:26

concern that I would like to make in

relation to the sea bass stock. One

2:21:262:21:31

is in relation to my constituent Mr

Chris Newman who contacted me last

2:21:312:21:36

August because in his drawer who

filed around 1000 kg of sea bass. --

2:21:362:21:43

in his trawl he found 1000 g of sea

bass, and sea bass was in abundance

2:21:432:21:48

because its rooms with there was an

abundance of mackerel locally. He

2:21:482:21:55

would have had to catch 33 tonnes of

species to legally allow him to land

2:21:552:22:01

his sea bass, and he ended up having

to discard much of it. This is

2:22:012:22:07

disgraceful, not only because Mr

Newman was denied the financial

2:22:072:22:12

income of around £10,000, but also

because much of that sea bass would

2:22:122:22:15

not have survived once it was

discarded. This week social media

2:22:152:22:22

reports have shown another fishermen

in Plymouth being denied a similar

2:22:222:22:25

income from having to discard sea

bass which he was prevented from

2:22:252:22:30

landing. When will the EU realise

fish cannot be told not to swim into

2:22:302:22:34

the net? The Secretary of State

himself has described the EU sea

2:22:342:22:41

bass management as a blunt

management system. Will my

2:22:412:22:43

honourable friend confirm that post

CFP management of fisheries will be

2:22:432:22:49

flexible enough to prevent

situations like this? The second

2:22:492:22:56

point I want to make with regard to

sea bass is on behalf of the sea

2:22:562:23:03

anglers. They have kept a sea bass

from each year's Angling and now the

2:23:032:23:07

EU Commission is proposing for 20 in

-- for 2018, prohibiting Bass

2:23:072:23:17

anglers to take a single sea bass

for personal consumption. This is

2:23:172:23:25

unacceptable and I would ask the

minister to make representations of

2:23:252:23:28

the European Council to support

recreational fishers.

2:23:282:23:34

Many young people go angling, and

many young people could not

2:23:342:23:37

recognise if they have a bass on the

end of their line, and how are we

2:23:372:23:42

going to police it?

I hear what she

is saying. It is madness to suggest

2:23:422:23:47

that someone in a West End

restaurant can sit down to eat while

2:23:472:23:51

bass caught by a commercial

fisherman, but one of her

2:23:512:23:55

constituents, or mine, on a day out

to the beach, cannot keep a single

2:23:552:23:59

fish that they catch of the beach or

in a boat. It is not tenable.

I take

2:23:592:24:13

a different view. I think there is a

place for commercial fisherman and

2:24:132:24:15

recreational anglers to work

together with this. I know a lot of

2:24:152:24:18

people who go to a restaurant, they

think they are buying British bass,

2:24:182:24:20

but it has been imported from abroad

and it is farmed. We need to make

2:24:202:24:25

sure we have a flexible management

system that will accommodate

2:24:252:24:28

everybody. I would like to turn to

any possible transition period post

2:24:282:24:38

- March 2000 and 19. I describe this

as a bridge. Nine months is all that

2:24:382:24:42

is needed, at the very most. At the

fisheries Council negotiations,

2:24:422:24:49

looking forward to December 2018,

assuming we get a satisfactory trade

2:24:492:24:54

deal, will the Minister make it

clear that the UK will be

2:24:542:24:59

introducing our own management

system at the very latest from the

2:24:592:25:04

1st of January 2020? After all, the

necessary processes and the coastal

2:25:042:25:10

state arrangements already exist. We

can ensure that zonal attachment of

2:25:102:25:15

fisheries will apply to the UK, as

it does many other nations around

2:25:152:25:18

the world from that date. Many have

raised concerns about whether we can

2:25:182:25:24

enforce fisheries. Turning to

enforcement of any UK set rules,

2:25:242:25:29

including access, can my honourable

friend confirmed that the UK already

2:25:292:25:33

polices our 200 mile limit under the

CFP, using different tools? The

2:25:332:25:40

fisheries protection vessels, taken

from the Royal Navy, for Wales and

2:25:402:25:45

Northern Ireland. The inshore

fisheries supplies by the local

2:25:452:25:52

inshore conservation authorities,

and the Scottish fisheries

2:25:522:25:57

protection service. They are all at

sea making sure the rules are

2:25:572:26:02

enforced. Electronic vessel

monitoring equipment on board many

2:26:022:26:06

vessels, an observation aircraft are

all tools of enforcement. The UK

2:26:062:26:11

will continue to enforce any rules

after we leave the CFP, as we have

2:26:112:26:16

done for years. I would like to

raise briefly the merchant shipping

2:26:162:26:20

act of 1988 and the factor ten case.

Will my honourable friend confirmed

2:26:202:26:25

that we will be unfettered by the EU

ruling? Nobody else permits foreign

2:26:252:26:33

rights to national resource and

assets to the degree the UK was

2:26:332:26:35

forced to do. Finally, fisherman

have always felt that their industry

2:26:352:26:42

was sacrificed when we joined what

was then the European Economic

2:26:422:26:46

Community. It is therefore necessary

that we have a separation of catch

2:26:462:26:52

opportunity access, and access to

the EU market. These are separate

2:26:522:26:58

subjects. Norway never let them be

mixed. Indeed, there is no

2:26:582:27:05

international precedent supporting

economic reasoning to do this. For

2:27:052:27:10

example, if France want to sell us

their wine and cheese, they must buy

2:27:102:27:13

our fish. That is common sense. Will

my honourable friend confirm that he

2:27:132:27:25

will not sacrifice access to fishing

resources for access to markets in

2:27:252:27:29

any negotiation? I wish my

honourable friend well in his

2:27:292:27:35

negotiation next week, and I know

he, like me, knows how important

2:27:352:27:40

fisheries are to our coastal

communities. I also know that he,

2:27:402:27:46

like me, is optimistic for the

opportunities our fisherman have

2:27:462:27:51

after we leave the Common Fisheries

Policy. Thank you very much.

The

2:27:512:27:57

question is that this house has

considered the UK fishing industry.

2:27:572:28:03

As I indicated previously, there

will be a time limit on backbench

2:28:032:28:06

speeches of five minutes. Mr Ben

Bradshaw.

Thank you. Can I associate

2:28:062:28:14

myself with the remarks of the

honourable lady about marine safety

2:28:142:28:18

organisations and fisherman's

welfare organisations, articulately

2:28:182:28:22

the fisherman's mission, in a year

which has been one of the better

2:28:222:28:26

ones in terms of fatalities at sea.

I do not know if you have watched

2:28:262:28:31

the BBC series blue planet, but you

have -- if you have, you will have

2:28:312:28:35

been inspired by our marine

environment, but also by its

2:28:352:28:38

vulnerability and fragility. While

environmental degradation on land is

2:28:382:28:44

visible, we see forests and species

disappear, we see desertification,

2:28:442:28:48

what has been happening in our

oceans has remained invisible apart

2:28:482:28:53

from to a dedicated band of Marine

scientists and divers. Thanks to

2:28:532:28:58

this fantastic programme it is

therefore love us to see.

Did the

2:28:582:29:05

honourable gentleman share my

concern as part of that programme,

2:29:052:29:07

the amount of plastic being ingested

by some of the marine life that then

2:29:072:29:12

goes into our food chain?

Yes.

Thankfully, plastics are one of the

2:29:122:29:18

more visible aspects of pollution

because we see them on our beaches.

2:29:182:29:22

But there is a lot else that goes on

which is still invisible. The other

2:29:222:29:28

big difference with land-based

environmental degradation is that

2:29:282:29:31

the sea is a place where the ancient

human activity of hunting and

2:29:312:29:35

gathering continues apace. Other

human activity has impacts, the use

2:29:352:29:40

of plastics, but much is invisible,

and man-made climate change is

2:29:402:29:46

leading to the warming of oceans and

the acidification with yet unknown

2:29:462:29:49

consequences. It is not just marine

life and fish that are affected as

2:29:492:29:55

an edible resource, but the role

that the oceans play in regulating

2:29:552:29:59

our climate, oxygen levels and

basically everything that makes

2:29:592:30:03

human life on Earth possible. For

most of history, the oceans and our

2:30:032:30:07

fish have simply been plundered and

that did not matter while there were

2:30:072:30:11

relatively few human beings and

fishing technology was antiquated.

2:30:112:30:15

But in the last hundred years,

population growth and technological

2:30:152:30:19

progress has completely changed that

equation with sometimes debating

2:30:192:30:24

consequences. We know the story of

the almost Rebic -- eradication of

2:30:242:30:29

bluefin tuna, turtles, cod off the

North Sea coast of the UK -- the US,

2:30:292:30:35

and in our case, in the north sea.

But things have changed. Politicians

2:30:352:30:43

have begun to take notice and

action. Action was taken, there was

2:30:432:30:46

collective endeavour, and this has

worked. In the case of North Sea

2:30:462:30:51

cod, there is a fantastic recovery

thanks to the difficult measures and

2:30:512:30:54

decisions I took as fisheries

minister, massively criticised by

2:30:542:30:58

the fishing industry at the time. We

have even had progress on the high

2:30:582:31:02

seas, which is much more difficult

because of the lack of international

2:31:022:31:05

legal framework. But as anyone can

appreciate, managing our seas and

2:31:052:31:12

fish stocks sustainably demands that

countries work together. As has so

2:31:122:31:16

often been said over the years, fish

to not respect national borders.

2:31:162:31:20

They swim about. I have real

concerns, in contrast to the

2:31:202:31:26

honourable lady, about the potential

of Brexit and its potential to

2:31:262:31:30

reverse the very welcome progress we

have seen in the last 20 years.

2:31:302:31:36

Let's be honest, the status quo is

not a disaster. The honourable lady

2:31:362:31:41

said the recommendations are for

increased catches at this year's

2:31:412:31:45

Council. I wonder why. My local

ports have just recorded their best

2:31:452:31:51

years in terms of the value of their

catches, with species like couple

2:31:512:31:55

finished doing incredibly well,

being exported straight to European

2:31:552:32:00

markets in Italy, France and Spain.

Is the honourable gentleman

2:32:002:32:08

seriously saying that British

fishermen want to stay in the Common

2:32:082:32:11

Fisheries Policy West Jamaat is that

what he is saying?

Some do. They

2:32:112:32:18

tend to be quiet because they get

shouted down by honourable members

2:32:182:32:21

like her. If she is honest about it

and speaks in honest conversations,

2:32:212:32:26

sensible fisherman who care about

long-term sustainability of stocks

2:32:262:32:31

do not all share her views. It would

be inaccurate to suggest that they

2:32:312:32:36

do. The point I was making was that

some of our most valuable catches,

2:32:362:32:42

including in the south-west, where

we have enjoyed a record year in

2:32:422:32:45

terms of the value of our catch, at

the moment, in the Common Fisheries

2:32:452:32:50

Policy, are exported straight to the

European Union tariff free. We also

2:32:502:32:55

depend for 80% of what we consume on

imports because of our taste for cod

2:32:552:32:59

and haddock. So what will happen in

the event of a bad deal, or no Deal

2:32:592:33:06

when it comes to tariffs on these

vital exports, but also on the vital

2:33:062:33:12

imports on which our producing and

processing sector is dependent,

2:33:122:33:16

about which my honourable friend

will speak later? The Brexiteers

2:33:162:33:22

have sold this idea that if we leave

the European Union and unilaterally

2:33:222:33:29

declare these marvellous limits, our

fish will suddenly get all these

2:33:292:33:34

extra fish, massively increased

quotas, our boats which currently

2:33:342:33:37

fish in other people's waters will

be able to carry on regardless, and

2:33:372:33:42

our exports will be unaffected. Like

so many of the promises made by

2:33:422:33:47

these modern-day wreckers, this is a

cruel deception on our fishers and

2:33:472:33:51

their communities. If you look at

the problems we have had this week

2:33:512:33:56

with the Irish land border, imagine

what will happen if the UK suddenly

2:33:562:34:00

and unilaterally declared, as is

proposed, moving our international

2:34:002:34:06

marine borders, in effect

unilaterally, declaring fish war on

2:34:062:34:10

all of our neighbours, excluding

them from itching grounds they have

2:34:102:34:14

fished for hundreds of years, and

stealing the quota they consider

2:34:142:34:19

legally theirs. -- fishing grounds

they have fished for hundreds of

2:34:192:34:22

years. It is also a recipe for

environmental disaster. We all know

2:34:222:34:29

from fisheries management across the

world that international and

2:34:292:34:34

supranational corporation must not

breakdown, or else it is the fish

2:34:342:34:37

and the marine environment that pay

the price. The second deception

2:34:372:34:42

being played out by the government

is that the government is likely to

2:34:422:34:45

make fisheries a priority. Look at

the value of our fishing industry

2:34:452:34:51

compared with financial services,

pharmaceuticals and others. Is that

2:34:512:34:55

government honestly going to pick a

fight for fisheries when these other

2:34:552:34:58

sectors are worth more to our

economy? It is a deception. Two

2:34:582:35:05

further points. Please, Minister,

make sea bass a recreational stock

2:35:052:35:09

as they have done in island, with

huge success. And keep a place at

2:35:092:35:16

the negotiating table. When you go

to Brussels later this month, stick

2:35:162:35:19

with the science. Stick with the

evidence. Think about the fish and

2:35:192:35:24

their future and a healthy future

for our fishing industry.

It is a

2:35:242:35:33

great pleasure to speak in this

debate and can I thank my honourable

2:35:332:35:38

friend so very much for initiating

this debate, and for her great

2:35:382:35:43

experience in the fishing industry,

and for a personal loss from

2:35:432:35:48

fishing, and so the safety at sea is

paramount, and she above all would

2:35:482:35:53

know that. I want to pay tribute to

her. I would firstly say to our

2:35:532:36:00

fisheries minister, we look forward

to him going to the December council

2:36:002:36:04

and coming back full of fish and

making sure that we have enough

2:36:042:36:10

quota for our fishermen, because

there is the science now to say that

2:36:102:36:16

most species, there is enough there

for our fishermen to catch. I am

2:36:162:36:21

amazed that the right honourable

gentleman from Exeter is so

2:36:212:36:26

pessimistic about the Common

Fisheries Policy. Whether you are a

2:36:262:36:30

Brexiteer or not, I think we can all

actually except that perhaps the one

2:36:302:36:36

section of society that got well and

truly stitched up when we first went

2:36:362:36:41

into the Common Market was the

fishing industry, because they put

2:36:412:36:46

forward quotas that were reasonably

accurate. Others put forward quotas

2:36:462:36:51

that were not, and we landed up with

a very, very small supply of what

2:36:512:36:57

were potentially our own fish. I

will give way.

I completely agree.

2:36:572:37:03

We were stuffed when we joined. But

I am not pessimistic about the

2:37:032:37:09

Common Fisheries Policy, I am

realistic. In the last 20 years, the

2:37:092:37:13

picture has been improving.

I would

accept there are improvements to the

2:37:132:37:20

Common Fisheries Policy but there

were many improvements to be made.

2:37:202:37:24

Therefore, we are getting on now to

having Giscards banned from the

2:37:242:37:29

Common Fisheries Policy, which we

can work on much better as a nation.

2:37:292:37:32

We can use a fishing management

similar to Norway, where you can

2:37:322:37:39

shut down and overfished area very

quickly. They can do it within one

2:37:392:37:43

day, which when you have 27

countries trying to come to an

2:37:432:37:47

agreement, you can never move that

fast. So there are great

2:37:472:37:51

opportunities. There is no doubt

that the figures actually prove that

2:37:512:37:56

basically the European fishing

vessels take from our waters some

2:37:562:38:02

£530 million of fish and we take

about £110 million of fish from

2:38:022:38:07

their waters. Whichever way you look

at this, there will be benefits are

2:38:072:38:13

fisherman. I will give way.

Since he

is looking at things, as chairman of

2:38:132:38:19

the select committee, would he look

at the suggestion into making sea

2:38:192:38:25

bass a recreational species only?

Would he look at that through his

2:38:252:38:28

committee?

2:38:282:38:32

I would be delighted to look at

that. We look at all the evidence

2:38:322:38:36

and what can be done. There is a

real place for wreck creational

2:38:362:38:41

fishing, and also a place very much

for professional fishing. I am very

2:38:412:38:46

happy to look at that, there is a

good point made. I will give way.

As

2:38:462:38:52

part of the study he agreed to

undertake, would he look at the

2:38:522:38:57

value to coastal towns of

recreational fishing. DEFRA

2:38:572:39:05

estimated it was £2 billion a year.

Hotels, B and B, all benefit from

2:39:052:39:14

this fishing and the moratorium on

sea bass is a disaster for coastal

2:39:142:39:18

towns.

I thank the Honourable Lady. As we

2:39:182:39:24

come out of the Commons Fisheries

Policy, I think there is enough fish

2:39:242:39:27

for everybody. If we manage the

stocks better, we have every

2:39:272:39:31

opportunity. Not only is it the

recreational fishing but it is the

2:39:312:39:37

processing, all of the things we

have to make more of the fish we

2:39:372:39:41

catch. The issue that we have, and I

believe there will be greater access

2:39:412:39:46

to fish and we will land much more

of our fish on to our own shores but

2:39:462:39:51

when we do that, we have one to make

sure we process it and add value to

2:39:512:39:57

it, and also have to say to all of

our population that there is many

2:39:572:40:03

types of fish that at the moment we

go to the Continent to the other

2:40:032:40:08

parts of the world and eat this

fish, and these types of fish, yet

2:40:082:40:13

here, we would not necessarily eat

them. That is where it is key. We

2:40:132:40:18

have a huge market still of some 70

to 80% of fish that we land in the

2:40:182:40:23

west of England that we export to

France, to Spain, and across to

2:40:232:40:28

Europe. So the markets are very,

very important for fish. We have to

2:40:282:40:32

make sure we get the fish, we manage

the fish stocks and we are able then

2:40:322:40:36

to market that fish.

I believe that on this issue

2:40:362:40:43

regarding Brexit and the Commons

Fisheries Policy we have a moment

2:40:432:40:47

now as we negotiate to have positive

cards in our hand. We can say to our

2:40:472:40:56

neighbours, there are historic

arrangements to look at but at the

2:40:562:40:59

end of the day you will fish the

amount that we agree under our

2:40:592:41:02

Russians and that is the way it will

be. I think if we are absolutely

2:41:022:41:07

firm and I expect the Fishing

Minister to be just that, that we

2:41:072:41:12

can get a reasonable deal with our

neighbours. I think our neighbours

2:41:122:41:16

will deal with us in a fair way on

this particular issue. They have two

2:41:162:41:21

choices to be blunt. They either

have the fish under our rules or

2:41:212:41:27

they don't have the fish at all. The

one thing I would say and reenforce

2:41:272:41:32

is that the one thing we must not do

is negotiate away our fisheries

2:41:322:41:37

again.

Our fishermen didn't forgive us the

2:41:372:41:44

first time, the second time they

will never forgive us. It is not

2:41:442:41:48

just a case of the fishermen or the

percentage of the overall economic

2:41:482:41:54

benefit of fish, it is about what is

morally right and what is morally

2:41:542:41:59

wrong and that is what we can put

right now. I am convinced that with

2:41:592:42:06

the right policies in place we can

see our existing systems of catching

2:42:062:42:11

through quota may well, I suspect,

our Fishing Minister, is in mind to

2:42:112:42:16

keep a lot of that in place. I would

not say let's have an evolution, no

2:42:162:42:23

the a revolution. Let's make sure

with discards that we land

2:42:232:42:27

everything that we catch so that we

know exactly what the stocks are in

2:42:272:42:31

the sea and Lts also look at some of

those types of fish that recover if

2:42:312:42:36

you put those fish back into the sea

and let's have a smart system of

2:42:362:42:41

manages our stocks. I believe we

will do well in the future. We can

2:42:412:42:47

manage our fishing better and we

must make sure that we police our

2:42:472:42:51

waters as we leave the Commons

Fisheries Policy. Thank you very

2:42:512:42:54

much.

Thank you very much Madame Deputy

2:42:542:43:00

Speaker. A pleasure so see you in

your place. I welcome my friend,

2:43:002:43:08

from Halifax.

In view of the frankly ludicrously

2:43:082:43:12

short time for the debate I intend

to make my remarks short and local.

2:43:122:43:17

The first I want to talk about is

the available and the continued

2:43:172:43:23

availability of funding for

infrastructure repair. North Shields

2:43:232:43:28

port is the premiere fishing port on

the East Coast, the biggest in

2:43:282:43:34

England, landing £7 billion of catch

each year and sustaining 300 jobs.

2:43:342:43:39

But a report of the port found that

between 6 and £8 million is needed

2:43:392:43:45

for infrastructure repair. Earlier,

the protection jetty was closed off.

2:43:452:43:50

It's an important part of the port

where many boats are moored. There

2:43:502:43:54

is a dilemma for those who wish to

make the repairs, does the North

2:43:542:44:02

Shields fish company make the bay,

and access funding from the EMFF, or

2:44:022:44:12

does the port of Tynee do it but it

is not a small and medium

2:44:122:44:18

enterprise, they don't fit into that

category, and then we are left

2:44:182:44:21

scratching our heads as to where the

money comes from and fishermen are

2:44:212:44:27

being prevented from going about

their daily business. I have written

2:44:272:44:30

to the minister this week. I hope

that he will read our concerns. And

2:44:302:44:35

ask his department to look into

this. To ask the MMO to look into

2:44:352:44:40

it. Finding an outcome for funding

is an urgent matter and I would ask

2:44:402:44:48

him after the Commons Fisheries

Policy, will resources for

2:44:482:44:52

infrastructure funding, as they are

now remain in place? It is very

2:44:522:44:59

important for ports like North

shields, and after what there could

2:44:592:45:05

be different areas with different

priorities. North shields has an

2:45:052:45:09

inshore fleet and a 12-milt limit is

crucial but would suffice frankly a

2:45:092:45:18

200 mile exclusive economic zone is

not relevant, where I am told unor

2:45:182:45:25

two come a year, as as far as local

fishermen, they are not exercised.

2:45:252:45:32

But north shields, 95% of the prawns

that are caught, they are not

2:45:322:45:37

processed or frozen. They have five

day interests being caught, put on

2:45:372:45:41

the tables and those tables are

usually in European Union Member

2:45:412:45:45

States.

Lloris cannot afford to wait at a

2:45:452:45:50

hard border. We can't afford to have

tariffs. The MMO issues around 300

2:45:502:45:59

catch certificates a year for

exports to non-EU countries, if they

2:45:592:46:07

are needed for every lorry, then the

estimate of 21,000 certificates

2:46:072:46:11

would be necessary and that would be

a disaster for North Shields. What

2:46:112:46:16

is the point of catching all of

those fish if there is no market? So

2:46:162:46:21

I ask the minister, what is his

plan? What are the arrangements in

2:46:212:46:26

place once we exit the CFP. I want

to speak briefly about the salmon

2:46:262:46:32

drift net fishery. About a dozen

licences on the north-east coast.

2:46:322:46:37

They are being phased out.

And that storks I have to say is

2:46:372:46:43

based on questionable evidence at

least some of our rivers in

2:46:432:46:47

Northumberland have had salmon run

force the first time in many years.

2:46:472:46:51

We were previously told that

licences needed to be phased out as

2:46:512:46:56

the EU wanted to add that into this

issue of sustainability. The

2:46:562:47:00

pressure does not come from the EU

but from landowners, who want to

2:47:002:47:05

protect their fishing rights and to

make sure that they get their Shah

2:47:052:47:08

of the catches. It is a big

business. So I ask the minister,

2:47:082:47:13

post CFP, will he stand up to the

land owner's lobby, who want to see

2:47:132:47:20

heritage fisheries, where the

fishermen have a huge respect for

2:47:202:47:24

the environment, have a fantastic

record of restocking our rivers and

2:47:242:47:28

it is in their interests that their

interests are looked after.

2:47:282:47:33

And briefly, in the seconds that I

have, I invite all members to come

2:47:332:47:40

to see Fiddler's Green, our hem or

yum unveiled, for the recent

2:47:402:47:49

fisherman that lost his life, that

tells us and reminds us that fishing

2:47:492:47:56

is a dangerous job and every policy

maker must have that at the

2:47:562:48:00

forefront of his mind.

It is delighted to be called in on

2:48:002:48:06

this debate. Can I congratulate my

friend and neighbour for securing

2:48:062:48:12

the important debate. As we leave

the European Union, there are huge

2:48:122:48:16

opportunities out there for our

fishing industry. And to establish

2:48:162:48:20

itself as a functioning, economic

and viable. Repatriation of our

2:48:202:48:27

historic fishing areas give coastal

communities like mine a new lease of

2:48:272:48:31

life. The UK must ensure full and

absalute control of UK territorial

2:48:312:48:40

median lines, giving access and

regimes that are controlled once

2:48:402:48:44

again by the UK Government. Many

will ask what it looks like? I have

2:48:442:48:49

been sceptical about the days at sea

proposal but after examining the

2:48:492:48:55

trial back in 201 # 1 I had

concerned about overfishing,

2:48:552:49:00

targeting species close to the shore

and a lack of scientific data to per

2:49:002:49:05

catches against. However I had a

meeting with proposals for

2:49:052:49:14

excludeing travel times for

destinations including soak time and

2:49:142:49:19

catch efforts and recorded databased

on scientific reports. This was

2:49:192:49:29

referred to, we would see, if I what

I in the time that I have remaining,

2:49:292:49:34

to move on to a proposal which has

caused consternation amongst sea

2:49:342:49:44

anglers and across the UK, which is

the fishing for the decentralised

2:49:442:49:50

lab rats or the European sea bass.

Whilst I recognise the international

2:49:502:49:55

council for the exploration of the

seas statistics of the decline of

2:49:552:50:00

the bio mass stock, and further

recognise that something must be

2:50:002:50:02

done, this should not be done on the

back of the rod and line angler. As

2:50:022:50:08

a matter of the up a party angling

group and champion for the sea bass

2:50:082:50:13

in Parliament, I had the pleasure of

leading a delegation, hosted by a

2:50:132:50:19

chap called Nick who runs a

successful family business, called

2:50:192:50:23

Bass Go Deeper. A successful trip

and all fish were returned to the

2:50:232:50:27

sea. Nick and many other bass guides

in Cornwall and other hook and line

2:50:272:50:33

and beach and cliff anglers will not

be able to fish if the ridiculous

2:50:332:50:39

measures are put forward and

implemented. The suggestion that the

2:50:392:50:44

anglers can catch fix for six months

of the year for catch and release

2:50:442:50:49

and the other six months, unable to

target bass. If this is a proposal

2:50:492:50:55

for conservation, then I argue that

this is a penalisation. Sport

2:50:552:51:03

fishing in the UK is a lucrative and

growing business, business's like

2:51:032:51:08

Nick's will go to the wall if the

proposals are put through. The

2:51:082:51:16

recreational sea angling sector,

seeing the least impact by fish

2:51:162:51:21

mortality, bear as burden of last

year's negotiations with the zero

2:51:212:51:26

catch from January to June and a one

fish bag limit from July to

2:51:262:51:34

September, the impact is negligible

and I believe that it demonstrates

2:51:342:51:37

that the problem does not rest with

the sea anglers. So I'm supporting

2:51:372:51:44

the Save Our sea bass campaign and

the European Anglers' alliance to

2:51:442:51:52

stop the unfair proposals.

Banning public fishing for these

2:51:522:52:03

species, while letting larger fish

remembers continue is unjust.

2:52:032:52:07

. As has been pointed out, bass

fishery is seen as some of the

2:52:072:52:16

premium sport fishing areas in the

whole of the UK. So in summing up,

2:52:162:52:21

the catching of fish and keeping it

for the pot is not a crime. One of

2:52:212:52:27

the last great remaining hunter

gatherer pursuits is catching your

2:52:272:52:31

fish for your dinner. A fight for

the measures, there are thousands of

2:52:312:52:40

anglers out there looking for your

support this year.

I am grateful for

2:52:402:52:47

being given the opportunity to take

part in this most important debate.

2:52:472:52:52

I apologise to the House now as I

did, I will not be here at the

2:52:522:52:58

conclusion of this. I am aware that

I am travelling to Lord's.

2:52:582:53:06

It is worth pausing for a second as

we debate in the relative calm of

2:53:062:53:12

Westminster on a Thursday afternoon,

that many of the fishermen in my

2:53:122:53:17

questions are at sea this these

conditions and it is worth

2:53:172:53:20

remembering that they do a very

difficult job in dangerous

2:53:202:53:25

circumstances, that is why we should

be grateful to them for the work

2:53:252:53:29

that they do and to the

organisations like the coastguard,

2:53:292:53:34

like the RNLI and the fishermen and

others who do so much to support

2:53:342:53:37

them. It strikes me, that there is

maybe a small piece of history, I

2:53:372:53:43

think this is perhaps the last of

these fisheries debates that we will

2:53:432:53:47

have in the current form.

This time next year we will be

2:53:472:53:52

looking towards the final fisheries

counsel in which we are a part of

2:53:522:53:57

the European Union.

And this brings me to my first task

2:53:572:54:01

it is that the Scottish fishermen's

federation and the Shetland's

2:54:012:54:10

fishermen's federation have seen

that in the first three years of the

2:54:102:54:15

2019, remaining part of the

fisheries policy but they are

2:54:152:54:20

looking for bridging arrangements to

take them to the end of the year to

2:54:202:54:24

honour the arrangements made next

year.

2:54:242:54:27

And that would then be the point at

which we would properly be exiting

2:54:272:54:35

the Commons Commons Fisheries

Policy. There is a simplicity to the

2:54:352:54:40

arrangement, I hope that the

minister will confirm that is the

2:54:402:54:44

approach that the Government are

seeking to pursue. Because,

2:54:442:54:49

fisheries management cannot continue

as part of the Commons Fisheries

2:54:492:54:53

Policy during any transitional

period that follows after the end of

2:54:532:54:58

March 2019 for a simple reason - we

will not have a seat at the sable

2:54:582:55:03

when the decisions are made at the

December fisheries counsel. A point

2:55:032:55:08

that I put to the Prime Minister

earlier this year, she was less than

2:55:082:55:12

clear in her answer. I realise that

maybe the Prime Minister does not

2:55:122:55:17

have the background in fisheries

that the minister today will have.

2:55:172:55:22

But I hope that he will be able to

confirm that is the position and

2:55:222:55:27

that we will not still, the

Government will not anybody a

2:55:272:55:31

position where our fishing industry

is left having to abide by rules and

2:55:312:55:36

decisions of which we have had no

part in the meeting.

2:55:362:55:43

As the Shetland fishermen's

Association put it to me today,

2:55:432:55:48

water and markets don't mix. By

that, they make the point that the

2:55:482:55:54

fishing industry and fishing rights

should not be traded off against

2:55:542:55:57

other sectors. So when it comes to

the negotiations around our

2:55:572:56:03

departure, will the Minister confirm

that he will do as I have urged on

2:56:032:56:09

other occasions, ring-fenced the

fishing industry? There are plenty

2:56:092:56:12

of historic reasons why this should

be the case, but there is no other

2:56:122:56:20

coastal state that is forced to

trade access to waters for access to

2:56:202:56:24

markets. I would say that the

fishermen in my constituency would

2:56:242:56:29

seek any arrangement of that sort is

nothing short of a betrayal of

2:56:292:56:33

undertakings that were given to them

at the time when they voted in the

2:56:332:56:38

EU referendum. Of course, we will

still remain subject to a variety of

2:56:382:56:46

different concerns as the Brexit

process continues. There is the

2:56:462:56:51

question of markets, because we can

catch as many fish as we like, but

2:56:512:56:54

you have to be able to sell them

somewhere. So we will take a close

2:56:542:56:59

interest in that part of the

negotiation, and of course also

2:56:592:57:02

there is the question of employment

for crew members, some of whom come

2:57:022:57:10

from within the European Union, many

of whom then work in the processing

2:57:102:57:15

sector. That is where the certainty

needs to be given to the industry in

2:57:152:57:20

the earliest possible point. It

simply is not going to work if we

2:57:202:57:27

are left in the same position in

relation to crew members coming from

2:57:272:57:32

outside the UK as we are currently

left in relation to the users for

2:57:322:57:37

fishing crew coming from out with

the European Union.

I welcome the

2:57:372:57:49

opportunity to speak today. I

congratulate the honourable member

2:57:492:57:55

for securing the debate and I

associate myself with pretty much

2:57:552:57:59

all of your comments in your opening

remarks, but in particular those on

2:57:592:58:04

the emergency and rescue services,

as was just mentioned again. I would

2:58:042:58:13

also like to express my gratitude

and put it on record for the

2:58:132:58:18

guarantee received yesterday from my

right honourable friend the

2:58:182:58:21

Secretary of State for Scotland when

he guaranteed that when we leave the

2:58:212:58:26

EU we will leave the Common

Fisheries Policy. I want to be as

2:58:262:58:32

helpful to ministers as I possibly

can. I am sure today the Minister

2:58:322:58:37

will understand if I say that I will

not, cannot and will not vote for

2:58:372:58:44

any fisheries Bill or Brexit deal

that does not advance the interests

2:58:442:58:49

of fisherman in my constituency. I

will talk more about Brexit later

2:58:492:58:56

but first I want to discuss a matter

that needs more urgent attention,

2:58:562:58:59

something we have already been

talking to the Immigration Minister

2:58:592:59:04

about. I want to discuss the matter

of non-EEA crew to the Scottish

2:59:042:59:10

fleet. We are not talking about

unskilled Labour, as is often

2:59:102:59:17

perceived, we are talking about

fisherman, experienced and qualified

2:59:172:59:20

professionals. Like farming, which

is where I grew up, I think fishing

2:59:202:59:27

is a trade where you have to have

the passion to make a real go of it.

2:59:272:59:32

Again like farming, I think it is

something you need to be born into,

2:59:322:59:36

or certainly something that many

fisherman are born into. Whether you

2:59:362:59:39

happen to be born in Peterhead in my

constituency, or in the Philippines

2:59:392:59:45

and further afield. The industry

does recognise a need for a

2:59:452:59:52

transition to be sustainable with

local Labour, but this will take

2:59:522:59:55

time. In no small part, mainly

because we need to undo decades of

2:59:553:00:03

damage done by the top-down EU

policies like the CFP. It would be

3:00:033:00:10

helpful if the government would

start recognising the Scottish

3:00:103:00:13

fleet's need for non-EEA crew, as I

have mentioned. The Scottish fishing

3:00:133:00:18

industry will be impacted by Brexit.

It is important to agree how

3:00:183:00:23

fisheries will be managed when we

leave the CFP, and we will have

3:00:233:00:27

these discussions when the fisheries

Bill reaches the House. The focus in

3:00:273:00:32

the meantime must be that we do take

back control. When it comes to

3:00:323:00:37

fishing, the Brexit negotiations are

not the final the Doshi nation. When

3:00:373:00:41

we leave the EU, the UK will become

an independent coastal state. So we

3:00:413:00:47

must thinking about one in our

approach to Brexit negotiations and

3:00:473:00:51

in annual negotiations with other

coastal states. The December 2018

3:00:513:00:56

deal will only apply to the UK until

the end of March 2000 and 19. And

3:00:563:01:03

also as has been mentioned, I am in

favour of going into the 2018

3:01:033:01:07

discussions willing to accept a

nine-month bridge to the end of

3:01:073:01:11

2019, but only if our requirements

are met. We must not bargain away

3:01:113:01:16

any concession of access to our

workers. We are not talking about

3:01:163:01:22

building a wall in the seed to keep

out foreign boats. But if we are not

3:01:223:01:28

able to restrict access to our

waters if our demands are not met,

3:01:283:01:31

we will end up with the weakest

bargaining power of any independent

3:01:313:01:34

coastal state. It has been mentioned

by my honourable friend that the

3:01:343:01:45

importance of zonal attachment.

Aligning our fishing opportunities

3:01:453:01:49

with zonal attachment would involve

one thing we can negotiate annually

3:01:493:01:57

and second, adjustments to fixed

quota shares, a longer term process.

3:01:573:02:03

However, we cannot insist on either

of these without offering in return

3:02:033:02:06

a quota that the EU wants and

periodic access to our waters,

3:02:063:02:11

access that must be in our control

and not traded away during Brexit

3:02:113:02:15

negotiations. Finally, very quickly

on devolution, I want to be clear

3:02:153:02:22

that I do agree that those closest

to the resource must have the most

3:02:223:02:27

say and influence. We need

grass-roots policy-making, not a

3:02:273:02:31

top-down system. I seek assurance

today that a UK framework that will

3:02:313:02:38

be universally recognised as being

required will be developed between

3:02:383:02:42

Westminster and devolved

administrations, but more

3:02:423:02:44

importantly with the involvement of

the relevant fish producer

3:02:443:02:46

organisations.

We have heard many

times this afternoon about the

3:02:463:02:57

importance of the fishing industry

and the role it plays in the

3:02:573:02:59

economic life of coastal

communities, including mine, where

3:02:593:03:05

the industry, including the

shellfish industry, is one of the

3:03:053:03:09

mainstays of the local economy. So I

have a keen interest in the health,

3:03:093:03:13

well-being and sustainability of the

fishing industry and the season

3:03:133:03:17

which provide some of the finest

seafood in the world. It is easy to

3:03:173:03:23

talk about the Scottish fishing

industry as one entity but there are

3:03:233:03:27

vast differences between the east

and West Coast of Scotland. I would

3:03:273:03:31

like to highlight some of the

challenges facing boat owners and

3:03:313:03:35

skippers on Scotland's West Coast.

This will come as no great surprise,

3:03:353:03:40

I suspect, as it is an issue I have

raised several times already in this

3:03:403:03:46

place, and that is to seek a

relaxation from Home Office rules to

3:03:463:03:50

allow non-EEA crew members to work

on vessels operating inside the 12

3:03:503:03:53

mile limit on the West Coast. Unlike

the East Coast, where 12 miles is 12

3:03:533:04:01

miles, on the West Coast, with our

coastline and our islands, the 12

3:04:013:04:05

miles actually extends a vast

distance out into the Atlantic, and

3:04:053:04:10

is a distance which few inshore

vessels cannot or will travel to

3:04:103:04:16

before reaching international

waters. As it stands, that means all

3:04:163:04:21

vessels inside that limit have two

be crewed by UK or EU citizens. But

3:04:213:04:26

in the current climate, recruiting

EU nationals to these boats is

3:04:263:04:32

becoming increasingly problematic.

More than ever we need to employ

3:04:323:04:37

non-EEA crew to fill the gap. In

2015, and in 2016, I joined a

3:04:373:04:44

delegation of Northern Irishman West

of Scotland boat owners, skippers,

3:04:443:04:47

fish processors and members of this

House at the Home Office to ask them

3:04:473:04:51

to relax the ban on international

seafarers being permitted to work in

3:04:513:04:57

West Coast Scottish waters. Both

times the appeals were rejected. We

3:04:573:05:01

were told to use EU and UK crew. Now

I am hearing from skippers,

3:05:013:05:06

including Jonathan McAllister, that

because of Brexit Amber Rudd tonnes

3:05:063:05:10

of EU nationals to commit to working

on the boats, a dire recruitment

3:05:103:05:16

situation is in danger of becoming

catastrophic. He, with many of his

3:05:163:05:22

colleagues, are seriously

contemplating walking away from the

3:05:223:05:24

industrial together. I understand

there are -- that a more

3:05:243:05:31

constructive meeting was held with

the Home Office recently, and I hope

3:05:313:05:35

that the right honourable member for

Great Yarmouth gave a flicker of

3:05:353:05:39

encouragement that a solution could

be found. And I sincerely hope that

3:05:393:05:44

is the case. Because otherwise the

west of Scotland fishing community

3:05:443:05:48

is facing the perfect storm of being

on the one hand unable to attract a

3:05:483:05:54

valued -- valued EU citizens,

because of Brexit, while on the

3:05:543:05:58

other being barred from recruiting

international seafarers from non-EEA

3:05:583:06:01

countries. I cannot overstate just

how serious the recruitment problems

3:06:013:06:08

are on the West Coast at the moment.

Just as we need EU nationals to work

3:06:083:06:13

in schools, hospitals, high-tech

industries and fields, so we need

3:06:133:06:16

them to work on the seas. But we

also need those highly trained,

3:06:163:06:23

professional, non-EEA international

seafarers to fill the gaps in our

3:06:233:06:26

fishing fleet, and I hope the right

honourable member for Great Yarmouth

3:06:263:06:31

does what his predecessors have

failed to do, and gives a

3:06:313:06:35

long-lasting solution to the

problems on the West Coast. Finally,

3:06:353:06:40

we have heard much about the

deficiencies of the Common Fisheries

3:06:403:06:44

Policy, and I am not going to stand

here and defend the CFP. But I want

3:06:443:06:50

to make absolutely clear, the SNP

has, for 40 years, been resolute in

3:06:503:06:55

its criticism of the Common

Fisheries Policy. Indeed, the SNP

3:06:553:07:00

are just about the only party who

have been consistently and vocally

3:07:003:07:04

opposed to the CFP. In 1983, when

Margaret Thatcher was helping to

3:07:043:07:11

create the CFP as we currently

recognise it, it was Donald Stewart,

3:07:113:07:15

the leader of the SNP, who was left

to speak in this House against it. I

3:07:153:07:22

can understand why that piece of

history would make the benches

3:07:223:07:25

opposite uncomfortable. I look

forward to the day when an

3:07:253:07:30

independent Scotland, as a member of

a European union, is able to help

3:07:303:07:34

shape a Common Fisheries Policy that

works for Scotland and all of our

3:07:343:07:37

neighbours.

I congratulate my

honourable friend for securing this

3:07:373:07:47

debate. Whilst this is an annual

debate each December, this

3:07:473:07:51

particular debate stands apart from

those in the past 40 years. These

3:07:513:07:56

debates normally focus on putting

steel in the Minister's backbone

3:07:563:08:00

ahead of the EU fisheries Council

meeting. This year, as well as this

3:08:003:08:06

immediate task to perform, the

Minister and the Secretary of State

3:08:063:08:09

have in front of them a great

opportunity, with the White Paper

3:08:093:08:13

and the fishing bill, to reset the

framework within which this great

3:08:133:08:16

industry operates. This provides a

once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to

3:08:163:08:22

rejuvenate the East Anglia and

fishing industry, with Lowestoft in

3:08:223:08:25

my constituency at its heart.

Lowestoft used to be the fishing

3:08:253:08:30

capital of the Southern North Sea

but over the last 40 years it has

3:08:303:08:34

lost this title, and currently East

Anglia derived is very little

3:08:343:08:40

economic benefit from the fish

stocks on its own doorstep in the

3:08:403:08:44

southern North Sea, which are among

the richest in Europe. The fisheries

3:08:443:08:48

Bill must provide the policy

framework within which the East

3:08:483:08:53

Anglia and industry can be

revitalised. This means East Anglia

3:08:533:08:57

and boats having fair and equitable

access to fisheries in all UK

3:08:573:09:03

waters, but particularly the

southern North Sea. It requires

3:09:033:09:07

supporting local infrastructure to

be developed so local communities

3:09:073:09:11

and the people fully benefit from

the fish that are landed in their

3:09:113:09:14

court -- ports. And it needs a

fisheries management system to be

3:09:143:09:20

put in place, in which local

fisherman, scientists and the

3:09:203:09:25

authorities collaborate in

overseeing fisheries, a system that

3:09:253:09:29

not only provides those working in

the industry with a reasonable

3:09:293:09:33

living, but also ensures that these

fisheries are passed onto the next

3:09:333:09:37

generation in better state. At

present, the East Anglia and fleet

3:09:373:09:42

is largely made up of under ten

metre boats have access to a limited

3:09:423:09:46

amount of fish to catch. This

inequity and imbalance must be

3:09:463:09:50

addressed. With the EU fleets taking

around four times as much fish from

3:09:503:09:55

UK waters as UK vessels take from EU

waters, our departure from the EU

3:09:553:10:00

does provide, means it is likely

there will be more fish available

3:10:003:10:06

for UK fishermen to catch. But that

will be of no benefit if we retain

3:10:063:10:10

the existing system of allocation.

The inshore fleet, the under tens

3:10:103:10:16

need a fairer, larger slice of the

cake. If the quota system is to be

3:10:163:10:21

retained, there must be a

significant reallocation. It has

3:10:213:10:26

been suggested that producer

organisations have a key role to

3:10:263:10:29

play going forward. If this is to be

the case, the system needs to be

3:10:293:10:33

reconstituted, as the Lowestoft PO

today only has six vessels, none of

3:10:333:10:40

which land fish in Lowestoft.

3:10:403:10:46

There is some debate as to if we

should move to a new system of

3:10:463:10:51

effort control. Based on data C. If

this is looked at, Lowestoft could

3:10:513:10:57

be used to pilot with sea bass

monitoring its impact. To ensure

3:10:573:11:03

that local people and businesses

benefit from more fish landed in

3:11:033:11:08

Lowestoft it is necessary to upgrade

the local supporting infrastructure.

3:11:083:11:14

This means safe berths, better

landing points and modern markets

3:11:143:11:20

and upgraded freezers. Strengthening

the supply chain for all. June

3:11:203:11:33

Mongery and Paul Lines have met the

minister to outline their plans for

3:11:333:11:37

securing the investment. I

anticipate that it will be worked

3:11:373:11:41

out locally in the coming months and

I will keep the minister informed of

3:11:413:11:48

progress, seeking guidance and

assistance where necessary. The

3:11:483:11:52

fisheries management system must be

overhauled. We must move away from

3:11:523:11:56

the current policing system to a

collaborative approach involving

3:11:563:12:01

fishermen authorities and

scientists. With sea bass in

3:12:013:12:06

Lowestoft, there is the potential to

put in place on the East Anglia

3:12:063:12:14

Anglian coast, a new fishing system,

which could be operated around the

3:12:143:12:18

world and can play an important role

in sustaining the blue planet for

3:12:183:12:23

the next generation.

I would like to congratulate the

3:12:233:12:31

Honourable Member for South East

Cornwall on securing the debate and

3:12:313:12:36

to congratulate her on the work she

does with the all-party fisheries

3:12:363:12:40

group of which she is the chairman.

And to echo sentiments for the

3:12:403:12:48

fishermen's mission, to supporting,

fishermen, families and communities.

3:12:483:12:54

I give way.

I don't want to do my honourable

3:12:543:13:03

friend, I wanted to congratulate

here, she is also an honourable

3:13:033:13:10

chairman for this group.

I do want to focus remarks on the

3:13:103:13:16

processing side of the fisheries

industry. I want to mention one

3:13:163:13:21

specific case of a former fish

perman, I raised this last year,

3:13:213:13:25

that is of the former fisherman

James Green around the issues of the

3:13:253:13:31

fishermen who missed out on pensions

unjustly and governments failing to

3:13:313:13:37

compensate for them that. Sadly,

James Green passed away and his

3:13:373:13:44

widow is still waiting for the full

entitlement from the scheme, the

3:13:443:13:49

ship he worked on for 20 years,

which was wrongly omitted from the

3:13:493:13:54

list of vessels, the list has been

corrected but the payments still not

3:13:543:13:58

paid in full. I have been dealing

with the matter through the

3:13:583:14:04

ombudsman but the recent

correspondence say that the matters

3:14:043:14:08

raced were not new, that they did

not look at the dealt department's

3:14:083:14:16

position even though it was

mistakenly excluded under the first

3:14:163:14:20

scheme. As the ombudsman has giveren

this her personal attention, this is

3:14:203:14:29

extremely disappointing. And for the

£3,000 and for the peace of mind of

3:14:293:14:36

those fishermen and trawlermen

fighting for decades and justice,

3:14:363:14:40

will he meet we moo to see if there

is anything that can be done to

3:14:403:14:45

bring this matter to a satisfactory

close. The demise of the fishing

3:14:453:14:50

industry since the peak of the

middle of the 20th century has hit

3:14:503:14:54

my town hard. We have seen in

Grimsby, the transformation of the

3:14:543:14:58

sector. While the catching

diminished in the same way that has

3:14:583:15:04

been discussed, we are now a hub for

the processing, manufacturing and

3:15:043:15:08

packaging side of things. We have 75

food sites within a radius of a

3:15:083:15:17

couple of miles, involved in landing

the fish, smoking it, turning it

3:15:173:15:22

into fish cakes and this is a

necessary industry. The fish caught

3:15:223:15:27

off our coast is often not the kind

that Britain want to eat. Depending

3:15:273:15:31

on where a catch is landed, the fish

in Grimsby could come, from many

3:15:313:15:40

areas. 270 tonnes of fish is

imported and they are perishable

3:15:403:15:49

goods, this could compromise...

To

the potential obstacles, to the

3:15:493:15:55

trade that she talks about include

the loss of regulatory alignment,

3:15:553:16:03

the topic of the week?

Yes, I will

come to that, regulatory alignment

3:16:033:16:09

and variance there of, I think.

I want to talk briefly about Norway.

3:16:093:16:14

Norway has been mentioned in this

debate. Often cited as an example of

3:16:143:16:22

how Britain's fisheries sector could

thrive. But it is not mentioning the

3:16:223:16:27

effect on the seafood processing

sector by opting out of the CFP,

3:16:273:16:33

Norway accepts losing market access

in fisheries. The majority of its

3:16:333:16:38

seafood processing sector relocate

to the EU with Britain being a win

3:16:383:16:42

fresh that situation.

Under the Norwegian agreement it can

3:16:423:16:47

sell fresh fish to EU countries with

a 2% parry but 13% on processed

3:16:473:16:55

fish.s are, while we buy fish from

Norway and Iceland tariff free, it

3:16:553:16:59

may not be the case in a year's

time. The minister must fight to

3:16:593:17:05

ensure this is not the outcome

waiting for Britain after we leave

3:17:053:17:10

the EU, it would be catastrophic for

jobs and industry in Great Grimsby.

3:17:103:17:16

And more expensive fish and chips.

Yes. I did meet with the minister,

3:17:163:17:25

along with the delegation from

Grimsby seafood processing sector to

3:17:253:17:29

discuss ways to ensure that the

parts and industry could continue to

3:17:293:17:35

grow post Brexit, I recognise it is

on the agenda but perhaps he could

3:17:353:17:39

update the House on the work he is

doing to prepare the sector for the

3:17:393:17:43

changes coming down the line.

The fishing industry in my area in

3:17:433:17:50

the south-west of Scotland is very

much lobster and langoustine and 86%

3:17:503:17:55

of that goes to Europe and therefore

my industry would be decimated if we

3:17:553:18:00

have barriers.

Absolutely right.

3:18:003:18:04

Thank you for sharing that point it

goes to show how important it is in

3:18:043:18:09

all areas of the country and all

coastal communities how every effort

3:18:093:18:14

must be made to ensure that the

local communities don't suffer as

3:18:143:18:19

the outcome of Brexit becomes

clearer. I would go on to say we

3:18:193:18:23

have about one in five of the

industry's skilled workforce coming

3:18:233:18:29

from overseas. The training that is

available, it needs to be made more

3:18:293:18:34

widely available. If freedom of

movement is no longer to apply to

3:18:343:18:40

this country after we leave the

European Union. And with that in

3:18:403:18:43

mind I would like to invite the

minister to visit the fantastic

3:18:433:18:49

Modell training facility in my

questions with provides training for

3:18:493:18:54

partime ports and Marine workers and

hope he takes me up on the offer to

3:18:543:18:59

see the modern training methods that

are taking place to maintain the

3:18:593:19:03

essential maritime skills.

It is a pleasure to follow the

3:19:033:19:10

honourable lady for east Grimsby. I

am delighted that we were able to

3:19:103:19:15

secure this debate through the

south-west member of Parliament for

3:19:153:19:18

south-west Cornwall. Fishing is

perhaps the oldest industry in the

3:19:183:19:21

south-west. It is deeply ingrained

in the culture and the heritage of

3:19:213:19:29

my device. Fishing and the

industries provide high quality

3:19:293:19:38

skilled jobs that offerie-round

employment. EU fisheries policies

3:19:383:19:46

have often ridden roughshod over the

UK fishing fleet, perhaps the reason

3:19:463:19:52

why fishermen were vokally

pro-Brexit. I'm sure that leaving

3:19:523:19:59

the EU represents an opportunity to

right historic wrongs and to build a

3:19:593:20:06

sustainable and prosperous future

for the fishing industry. This would

3:20:063:20:10

not be without challenges. However

until we leave the EU we are bound

3:20:103:20:15

by EU regulations and I am glad to

speak ahead of the annual fisheries

3:20:153:20:22

meeting in Brussels. I have spoken

to a membership of 250 boats based

3:20:223:20:29

in my constituency, one of the

largest fishermen organisations in

3:20:293:20:32

the UK and with others on the key

concerns for the future of fishing.

3:20:323:20:38

Their message is clear, to have the

UK fishing industry to regain

3:20:383:20:43

control of access to UK waters up to

the 200 mile limit and to make the

3:20:433:20:48

use of funding opportunities and to

have a regime determined by the UK

3:20:483:20:53

Government, not the EU, which

permits UK vesselses to secure is a

3:20:533:21:01

greater share of the catch. With

regards to cod, haddock and Whiting

3:21:013:21:07

there are concerns about the impact

of the proposals on the parts of the

3:21:073:21:11

fleet in the south-west. The

proposal shows a lack of

3:21:113:21:16

understanding of our dynamics of the

fixed fisheries in the area. I will

3:21:163:21:21

ask that he makes a case for mixed

fisheries model analysis to ensure

3:21:213:21:30

that the approach is science led.

And there are concerns about the

3:21:303:21:35

European Commission's proposal on

bass fishing for 2018. Set up by my

3:21:353:21:40

friend from the north of corn

Whitehall. A believe that the

3:21:403:21:45

commission proposals are based on

inadequate understanding which are

3:21:453:21:51

come priced almost exclusively of

unavoidable by catch. 2018 every

3:21:513:21:58

bass caught in a net will be

discarded dead, bass in a trawl

3:21:583:22:05

discarded dead, the key to the

fisheries management is to control

3:22:053:22:11

fishing mortality and this seems to

have escaped the commission.

3:22:113:22:15

I am grateful for giving way. I

represent the most land locked

3:22:153:22:20

constituency of any member in the

chamber but my constituents enjoy

3:22:203:22:24

eating fish and care about the

Marine environment and fish stocks.

3:22:243:22:30

Would he agree with me that the

consumers and the wildlife fund, On

3:22:303:22:38

the Hook and Greenpeace, that what

they buy is sustainably fished fish

3:22:383:22:45

and confident that it is?

That is

right. Newland bass is caught with

3:22:453:22:56

clear and correct labelling. The

commission is damaging the integrity

3:22:563:23:03

fishermen by implaying that they are

fishing their catch and making sea

3:23:033:23:09

bass a valuable species, so chucking

by catch back seems senseless.

3:23:093:23:14

I would ask that time is given to

the results of measures introduced,

3:23:143:23:21

which has led to 70% reduction in

landings from the commercial fleet.

3:23:213:23:25

Steady rebuilding is the right way

forward but avoiding unnecessary

3:23:253:23:29

discard is a key part of this

policy.

3:23:293:23:33

I mentioned earlier I was grateful

to have the minister and the

3:23:333:23:37

Secretary of State on a visit to

Newland hash our and have a Q AA

3:23:373:23:44

session. There was a thorough

quizzing given. And the council er,

3:23:443:23:53

Adam Patent accepted my invitation

and visited Newland. I mentioned the

3:23:533:23:58

visits as the team there have

developed plans for investment to

3:23:583:24:02

see the hash our offering a greater

range of service services and

3:24:023:24:08

delivering a infrastructure to

service a vital fishing fleet. To

3:24:083:24:14

unlock potential in the lobingal

fishers and to bring improvement to

3:24:143:24:19

the infrastructure. This is

important in Newland's leading role

3:24:193:24:24

in the UK fisheries. It is located

well to serve export and premium

3:24:243:24:32

import markets. It is vital for

international hubs like Newland to

3:24:323:24:38

navigate from the EU with extra

capacity for boats and services,

3:24:383:24:44

Newland has the potential to expand

the international enterprise.

3:24:443:24:51

The current systems do not

adequately recognise the needs of

3:24:513:24:55

the Cornish fishing industry. Small

businesses in my constituency with

3:24:553:25:02

unreliable cash flows struggled to

maximise on reimbursed grants. They

3:25:023:25:09

may look to sparingly at Scottish

counterparts long able to use

3:25:093:25:13

European regional development

funding for ports and harbours

3:25:133:25:16

because Scotland negotiated a block

exemption on state aid rules.

3:25:163:25:20

Please, as we leave the EU and look

to secure a sustainable fishing

3:25:203:25:24

industry across the UK's coastal

towns, can we give equal access to

3:25:243:25:29

funds going forward?

Because there

have been a number of interventions,

3:25:293:25:36

I'm going to have two reduced the

time limit to four minutes after the

3:25:363:25:41

next speaker.

Thank you, and I

commend you on your good judgment. I

3:25:413:25:53

will not be taking any

interventions. In Scotland there is

3:25:533:25:56

a great divide that has torn apart

families and friends. It is not

3:25:563:26:02

politics, religion or football. It

is the age-old question, salt and

3:26:023:26:08

vinegar, or salt and source?

Unbelievably, some people prefer

3:26:083:26:12

source with their fish and chips.

For most people, that is all they

3:26:123:26:16

need to consider, but how often do

we stop and wonder who caught the

3:26:163:26:20

fish, what were the weather

conditions, who owns the boat, how

3:26:203:26:24

much debt are they in, will the bank

lend to them, what sort of living do

3:26:243:26:29

they make, and are they safe at sea?

For generations, fishing families

3:26:293:26:33

have braved the seed to put food on

our plates and they can only

3:26:333:26:39

concerted -- continue to do so if

their waters and they are protected.

3:26:393:26:45

Post-Brexit, who decides? In the

Faroe Islands, the fishing industry

3:26:453:26:49

accounts for 90% of total exports.

The Danish government have respected

3:26:493:26:54

that have allowed the Faroe Islands

to negotiate their own treaties. As

3:26:543:26:58

a result, they are thriving. This is

possible when one Parliament

3:26:583:27:07

respects and trusts another. As we

move closer to Brexit, will the UK

3:27:073:27:10

respect and trust Scotland? Like the

Faroe Islands, Scotland's seas are

3:27:103:27:17

vitally important. They are the

fourth-largest in the EU and

3:27:173:27:19

potentially the richest. On average

around four tonnes of fish are taken

3:27:193:27:26

from each square nautical mile of

Scottish waters, compared to one

3:27:263:27:30

tonne on average for EU waters.

Neighbouring countries are highly

3:27:303:27:34

dependent on Scotland's waters for

their landings. Germany and the rest

3:27:343:27:37

of the UK land 30% of their fishing

catch, by weight, from Scottish

3:27:373:27:43

waters. If Scotland was a normal

independent nation we would

3:27:433:27:49

negotiate directly with other

countries to get the best possible

3:27:493:27:52

deal for this sector of our economy.

Scottish fishermen will be looking

3:27:523:27:56

at the future with trepidation over

their funding and investment

3:27:563:27:58

situation. We would be wise to look

to Norway, where all parties are

3:27:583:28:06

involved in fisheries, regardless of

size, and have a seat around the

3:28:063:28:09

table where all are equally

respected, and fishermen,

3:28:093:28:13

policymakers, politicians and

managers listen to each other in an

3:28:133:28:16

atmosphere of equality. No sector

dominates to the detriment of

3:28:163:28:22

another. Madam Deputy Speaker, I

want to be clear that the SNP agrees

3:28:223:28:30

that the Common Fisheries Policy has

been burdensome on the Scottish

3:28:303:28:32

fishing industry. We have

consistently opposed this policy, as

3:28:323:28:38

was mentioned earlier, since 1983

when it was debated in this house.

3:28:383:28:42

We understand that every voting area

in Scotland voted to remain in the

3:28:423:28:50

EU, but their wind out of the many

Scottish fishermen who wanted to

3:28:503:28:53

leave and take back control. What

does that look like for the Scottish

3:28:533:28:56

fishing industry? HSBC estimates an

overall loss of access to the single

3:28:563:29:03

market will initially cost the

industry £42 million per year. Over

3:29:033:29:08

a quarter of crew in the Scottish

fishing fleet are non-UK nationals,

3:29:083:29:15

European workers still do not have

clarity regarding rights, and as was

3:29:153:29:18

mentioned earlier, there is a

recruitment crisis looming. We

3:29:183:29:24

require access to the EU market. 86%

of all the West Coast of Scotland

3:29:243:29:30

shellfish currently goes to the EU.

This has to continue somehow. New

3:29:303:29:36

markets can be pursued long-term,

but core markets must be preserved.

3:29:363:29:41

Finally, it is not just livelihoods

at risk, it is lives. While we are

3:29:413:29:47

restructuring our fishing

industries, we must give the fish

3:29:473:29:50

were security of a coast guard

capable of reacting to emergencies.

3:29:503:29:57

We do lose fishing vessels and

mistakes cannot be ignored. We

3:29:573:30:00

should look at this period as an

opportunity to do things better.

3:30:003:30:04

Will the Minister seek to develop a

fair allocation of quota, provide

3:30:043:30:08

improved training for domestic

fishermen, create fair and flexible

3:30:083:30:13

fisheries access and management for

inshore fleets, and regenerate our

3:30:133:30:17

coastal fleets and associated

facilities around the coasts? These

3:30:173:30:22

opportunities are given to us and we

must act now.

Could I start by

3:30:223:30:28

paying tribute to Sean Hunter, a

Brixham fisherman who very sadly

3:30:283:30:33

lost his life in the past week. He

was deeply loved by his family and

3:30:333:30:38

the community and I know the House

will want to join me in sending

3:30:383:30:42

condolences to his family. I would

like to pay tribute to the fishermen

3:30:423:30:49

cosmic mission, who support

fishermen, their families and our

3:30:493:30:52

wider communities, and to join other

members in paying tribute to the

3:30:523:30:56

Coast Guard, the RNLI, and coastal

watch and all the emergency services

3:30:563:31:01

for their professionalism and

courage on their behalf. But most of

3:31:013:31:05

all, to thank the fishers

themselves, who do so much in such

3:31:053:31:09

challenging conditions to put food

on our plates and brings so much to

3:31:093:31:13

our national and local economies.

936 million was the value of the

3:31:133:31:18

catch to the UK economy in 2016. I

am delighted to say that Brixham was

3:31:183:31:26

again voted the number one fishing

port in the UK, and lands the most

3:31:263:31:32

valuable catch in England. In excess

of £30 million was sold through

3:31:323:31:38

Brixham fish market in the last

year, and that is not just providing

3:31:383:31:41

jobs at sea, providing jobs in the

processing sector on land. We

3:31:413:31:48

recognise the value of all of them.

I would like to pay tribute to the

3:31:483:31:54

responsible actions of our fishers,

which have done so much in

3:31:543:31:59

responding to scientific and ice and

improving the sustainability of so

3:31:593:32:02

many of our species. Just as we

expect them to respond to that

3:32:023:32:08

scientific advice and reduced the

total allowable catch in many cases,

3:32:083:32:12

I think also I would ask the

Minister to respond and recognise

3:32:123:32:16

that we expect fairness when the

data, the scientific data, shows

3:32:163:32:21

that we are fishing sustainably. I

would ask him, in his negotiations

3:32:213:32:27

which I wish him well for, that he

looks at the quotas in seven D and

3:32:273:32:34

seven EE, because I think there is a

strong case for that being increased

3:32:343:32:37

further. I would also say we need to

look at the value of the scientific

3:32:373:32:44

evidence on which this is based.

Could I ask the Minister in

3:32:443:32:48

responding to this debate to listen

to the concerns of fishermen who are

3:32:483:32:52

asking for greater access to

fisheries science partnerships, and

3:32:523:32:58

I'm concerned to hear that too often

these requests are being turned

3:32:583:33:01

down. For some years the UK has

agreed to add here to the data

3:33:013:33:07

collection framework, for example

for sprats. So it is a concern to

3:33:073:33:11

hear the stock still described as

eight efficient. I wonder if the

3:33:113:33:15

Minister could say what is going to

happen about that in future. -- it

3:33:153:33:19

is described as data deficient. Many

colleagues have raised bass

3:33:193:33:26

fisheries, and I would like to say

thank you to the group for meeting

3:33:263:33:32

with me to discuss fisheries and

hold back up as an example of where

3:33:323:33:37

we can see responsible precaution,

but proportion of precautionary

3:33:373:33:45

principle is applied. Finally, I

would say to the Minister that as we

3:33:453:33:49

move to thinking about where we are

in Brexit and beyond, fishing

3:33:493:33:54

communities want to see fairness. We

recognise that we need to not fall

3:33:543:34:00

into an acrimonious Brexit, that we

need to maintain good relations in

3:34:003:34:03

order to trade in future with our

neighbours. I just hope he will make

3:34:033:34:09

sure our fishing communities are not

let down, as they were in 1973.

It

3:34:093:34:15

is a privilege to follow the member

for Totnes, and I congratulate my

3:34:153:34:21

neighbour on securing this debate.

At the beginning of a fisheries

3:34:213:34:25

debate it is right to praise the

charities that provide rescue and

3:34:253:34:29

support for the fishing industry.

Today, I would like to pay special

3:34:293:34:34

tribute to Tony Jones, a fisherman

of many years, respected and missed

3:34:343:34:39

by the fishing community in Plymouth

and around the country, who died

3:34:393:34:43

when a trawler was lost at sea off

Plymouth recently. Our thoughts

3:34:433:34:47

remain with his family, and Nick and

Chris who five the capsize. I would

3:34:473:34:54

pay special thanks to the RNLI crews

who reacted so quickly in searching

3:34:543:34:59

for the vessel. I think it may be

useful for members that do not

3:34:593:35:03

follow their local RNLI Twitter to

search the Twitter feed, which

3:35:033:35:09

tweets every time a lifeboat

launches. You will be amazed at just

3:35:093:35:14

how many times those brave

volunteers go to sea to save lives.

3:35:143:35:18

We must do more to protect and

secure safety at sea, which means

3:35:183:35:22

matching words with action. I have

been grateful to the Minister for

3:35:223:35:29

the action he has secured following

the possible delay to lifeboat task

3:35:293:35:34

in after the recent sinking. He said

they would be no stone left unturned

3:35:343:35:38

and has so far been true to his

word. I am also grateful to the SNP

3:35:383:35:44

member for his support after the

sinking, and for sharing his

3:35:443:35:50

experience of a sinking from his own

constituency. There are proper

3:35:503:35:54

investigations under way and it is

not right to prejudge that but I

3:35:543:35:57

know there are areas for improved

tasking of lifeboats identified by

3:35:573:36:01

the Coast Guard which will hopefully

be put in place to save lives

3:36:013:36:05

quicker at sea. This was not a

partisan request. There is

3:36:053:36:10

cross-party support to ensure safety

at sea is put ahead of political

3:36:103:36:13

considerations. I have asked the

Coast Guard to do all they can to

3:36:133:36:18

rebuild confidence between the

fishing industry in Plymouth and the

3:36:183:36:20

Coast Guard in the event of a

disaster or a missing trawler, that

3:36:203:36:25

they will be action taken. Fishing

is a really important industry for

3:36:253:36:32

Plymouth. We have a vibrant fishing

community which we want to

3:36:323:36:36

strengthen. It is vital that we

campaign not only for the right

3:36:363:36:39

Brexit deal to protect our

fisheries, but also that the fishing

3:36:393:36:44

infrastructure around the country is

protected. In Plymouth, that means

3:36:443:36:48

not building luxury flats on the

fishing quay, to ensure there is

3:36:483:36:52

protection of the fishing industry

for many years to come. Plymouth

3:36:523:36:56

needs a new state-of-the-art fish

market and I hope the government

3:36:563:36:59

will look at how investment can be

secured to ensure that whatever port

3:36:593:37:03

around the country, Britain's

fishing industry can access the very

3:37:033:37:07

best of technologies and facilities

to ensure the success of this

3:37:073:37:10

industry for many years to come. I

am proud that in Plymouth we are

3:37:103:37:15

leading the way towards blue belting

by following the example set in blue

3:37:153:37:20

planet, securing the first National

Marine Park. There is cross-party

3:37:203:37:24

support and support from the

world-class institutions based in

3:37:243:37:32

Plymouth for this scheme. Finally, I

would like to heap praise on the

3:37:323:37:37

fantastic work of Plymouth City

Council in bringing forward the

3:37:373:37:41

Plymouth life jackets campaign. 120

personal flotation devices equipped

3:37:413:37:48

with personal locator beacons have

been given out of the fishing

3:37:483:37:50

industry in Plymouth. This has been

done with a £77,000 grant from the

3:37:503:37:56

European maritime fisheries fund.

This is designed to take the search

3:37:563:38:02

out of search and rescue. There is a

lot we should be proud of as a House

3:38:023:38:06

in the fishing industry and knowing

how dangerous it is should heap

3:38:063:38:10

praise on the fishing industry for

the work they do.

Although

3:38:103:38:18

representing 31 miles of North Sea

coastline in my constituency, I do

3:38:183:38:22

not have much of a fishing industry.

But I did think it was important to

3:38:223:38:28

speak in this debate on the EU of

the annual European Council on

3:38:283:38:33

fisheries, which will set quotas for

fishing fleets. In a previous life I

3:38:333:38:38

had the privilege to work in the

European Parliament for Iain Duncan

3:38:383:38:44

Smith, who was the Conservative

spokesman on fisheries. I learned

3:38:443:38:52

that you enter the world of fishing

unprepared at your peril. More

3:38:523:38:56

importantly, I learned of the skill,

dedication and ingenuity of British

3:38:563:39:00

and Scottish fishermen and the wider

industry and their organisations.

3:39:003:39:14

Faced with overwhelming regulation,

recovery plans and the bureaucracy

3:39:143:39:19

of red tape that would test any

industry, they have adapted and

3:39:193:39:24

overcome through their axes, not

through the words of the civil

3:39:243:39:30

servants, and amazingly this year,

North Sea cod has been recertified

3:39:303:39:35

as sustainable.

We are having the debate because of

3:39:353:39:39

the council in Brussels. But in

realise, as the minister is aware,

3:39:393:39:44

that the big decisions have been

taken. On the whole, it has been an

3:39:443:39:51

OK, a positive view for the Scottish

fishing fleet. I would like to pay

3:39:513:39:56

tribute to those unsung allies and

supporters of the industry in

3:39:563:40:00

Princess Elizabeth who fought the

good fight in trial logs and various

3:40:003:40:04

councils. As you can imagine now, it

is an uncertain time as we prepare

3:40:043:40:09

to leave the European Union and they

are working hard defending British

3:40:093:40:15

interests as regulations that affect

the British industry continues to

3:40:153:40:19

come through. So today as we wish my

friend every success at the council,

3:40:193:40:24

to all of those at the British

staff, the commission, to Caroline

3:40:243:40:29

Healy, who works with the industry,

to defend it and give it a voice at

3:40:293:40:34

the heart of the EU, for the work

being done for our fishing industry

3:40:343:40:40

over the years, I thank you it is

through the work of the individuals

3:40:403:40:44

and the predecessors that the

industry is in a strong position as

3:40:443:40:47

we set sale into the opportunity

that is a post CFP world.

3:40:473:40:57

As a member of the DEFRA committee

and with regards to the ongoing

3:40:573:41:05

fishing enquiries, I thought it

important to say a few words. We

3:41:053:41:10

cannot forget it was the Ted Heath

Tory Government who deemed that

3:41:103:41:17

Scottish fisher membership were

expendable in the UK interest. Back

3:41:173:41:20

then that's when there were 23

Scottish Tory MPs, now we are meant

3:41:203:41:26

to believe that the new baker's

dozen is to hold this government to

3:41:263:41:29

account.

Going forward, there is no doubt

3:41:293:41:35

that everyone appreciates how

critically important fishing is to

3:41:353:41:38

the coastal communities, in the

bigger picture it accounts for 0.1%

3:41:383:41:42

of GDP. My concern is with

successive governments, enthralled

3:41:423:41:48

to the London financial sector and

house prices in London, where will

3:41:483:41:52

overall government priorities be?

How can we believe guarantees from

3:41:523:41:55

the fishing minister, that there is

separation and ring-fencing of

3:41:553:42:01

fishing access? Going forward, this

allows for historical rights to be

3:42:013:42:07

taken into account. Therefore, there

should be discussions on the subject

3:42:073:42:13

and the UK Governments has now

allowed 18 months to pass without

3:42:133:42:19

closing decisions in the EU, they

will have to up their game. The

3:42:193:42:25

price here is the control of the

waters, the management of stock in a

3:42:253:42:31

sustainable way. Scotland must have

control over its waters. We account

3:42:313:42:40

for 60% of the UK's waters and 30%

of the EU catch, so Scotland is

3:42:403:42:45

critical in the process. It is fine

to argue for an overall UK framework

3:42:453:42:50

but it must be agreed by devolved

nations and it can't be imposed on

3:42:503:42:56

devolved in addition nations. This

is a concern echoed by the Scottish

3:42:563:43:02

fish Fishermen's Federation, who

want all EU powers edevolved.

3:43:023:43:09

Scotland must be allocated budgets,

and even that funding is proof that

3:43:093:43:15

the low priority and the weakness of

the UK Government in negotiations

3:43:153:43:17

with the EU.

The forthcoming fisheries paper must

3:43:173:43:23

be fleshed out more matters. What

were the quota management system be

3:43:233:43:29

based on? We can't continue with the

position with trading of blue

3:43:293:43:38

whiting, with seeing Scotland losing

out on over 1,000 tonnes of Whiting

3:43:383:43:42

over the past five years. The UK

Government must publish and

3:43:423:43:48

implement a fisheries Concorde that

was agreed in August 2016. The

3:43:483:43:54

Environment Secretary must ensure

that there is licensing and going

3:43:543:44:00

forward if people can't afford or

get access to licences then the

3:44:003:44:05

perceived opportunities for job

creation is lost, we also must look

3:44:053:44:10

at quota hopping and address that.

There are issues with the trade

3:44:103:44:15

tariffs if the access to the single

market is not maintained. The legal

3:44:153:44:20

cost is said to be £42 million. And

we know a customs agreement is

3:44:203:44:28

needed. And howl will the EU

situation be going forward? There

3:44:283:44:38

should be a bridging period.

Are we leaving early or on day one?

3:44:383:44:45

There will be opportunities to go

forward, this government must up its

3:44:453:44:50

game and must start giving out

better information.

3:44:503:44:53

I would like to take the opportunity

of the debate and the definition of

3:44:533:45:00

the fishing industry, in harvesting,

processing and marketing aquatic

3:45:003:45:12

fishing for consomes. Since 1995,

amount of fish used for food has

3:45:123:45:19

continued to grow. The gap is filled

by the miracle offing a Cold War

3:45:193:45:25

culture. 40 years ago 93% came from

capture fisheries, 7% coming from

3:45:253:45:33

global aqua culture but today, 50%

comes from aqua culture, that will

3:45:333:45:38

rise. The number of aqua culture

produced fish is staggering. More

3:45:383:45:43

than 50% is produced from fish farms

this is the equivalent of 78.3

3:45:433:45:52

million tonnes, equivalent to the

weight of 377 jumbo jets. That is a

3:45:523:45:56

lot of fish. This is making a huge

contribution to feeding the world's

3:45:563:46:01

population. This provides an

efficient source of animal protein

3:46:013:46:07

and critical to the future for the

rapidly increasing global

3:46:073:46:11

population. It comes as no surprise,

that a Scottish member will talk

3:46:113:46:16

about Scottish food being the best

in the world. The salmon, born in

3:46:163:46:22

Scottish waters is second to non.

The growth in the aqua culture has

3:46:223:46:28

allowed the industry to thrive.

According to a DEFRA commissioned

3:46:283:46:35

report, published in July 2017, 85%

of salmon farmed comes from

3:46:353:46:40

Scotland. According to a report

commissioned by the Highlands and

3:46:403:46:47

islands enterprise, aqua culture

supply chain employs over 12,000

3:46:473:46:50

people. And according to UK food and

drink federation in 2017 salmon is

3:46:503:46:57

the UK's number one food export.

Now, my time is short, so let me say

3:46:573:47:04

something about the value...

Does he

understand that the reason that we

3:47:043:47:11

call for Scotland to remain in the

single market is so that we don't

3:47:113:47:16

have salmon backed up at check

points?

I agree. We don't want it.

3:47:163:47:20

The value of salmon to the UK

economy is close to the value of the

3:47:203:47:26

entire landings of all UK fish

landed. And that is something to be

3:47:263:47:30

improved. If a barrel of oil is

worth $50, the barrel of salmon is

3:47:303:47:39

worth over $1200, which is why the

Norwegian government's policy is

3:47:393:47:44

that aqua culture is the sustainable

policy for when oil runs out. The

3:47:443:47:51

industry is worth £1.8 billion. We

go for growth and the Scottish

3:47:513:47:56

national Marine plan is to target

increase production to 170,000

3:47:563:48:01

tonnes to 210,000 tonnes in the

coming year. This is done by

3:48:013:48:06

focussing on the productivity and

focus on the cutting-edge science of

3:48:063:48:11

food production. So back to

Stirling, where we have the

3:48:113:48:16

institute of aqua can you tower and

global aquatic food industry and the

3:48:163:48:26

Scottish aquatic invasion centre.

Now they have been working together

3:48:263:48:31

to develop vaccines, and cultivation

methods and productivity techniques

3:48:313:48:37

impacted all over the world and in

Scotland and the UK. With the centre

3:48:373:48:43

we can develop increased

productivity and do our part to

3:48:433:48:47

develop in the global industry to

ultimately feed the world. So I come

3:48:473:48:52

to the request from the minister, an

important part of the Stirling city

3:48:523:48:57

deal is to invest in the

infrastructure of thing a Cold War

3:48:573:49:03

culture food security and Stirling

University and the Scottish aq Cold

3:49:033:49:07

War culture invasion centre and help

to secure the invest in the £20

3:49:073:49:14

million, that investment will be the

ignition point for millions of

3:49:143:49:17

pounds of private investment around

the industry. And the prize of which

3:49:173:49:25

is an additional £254 million in

increased GDA and increased jobs and

3:49:253:49:32

increased sales. We have determined

that Scotland and the UK are at the

3:49:323:49:38

forefront of global ab-Cold War

culture and that we do not lose the

3:49:383:49:43

potential for high volume employment

and invasion and growth in aquackic

3:49:433:49:50

food production. Creating a vision

to match current and future industry

3:49:503:49:55

needs. Underpinned by scientific

strategy, working together with

3:49:553:50:05

excellent. Make this is reality.

I had hoped to make a speech to

3:50:053:50:14

discuss the dangers facing the Welsh

if I fishing industry. Firstly to

3:50:143:50:20

set out the nature and the structure

of the Welsh fishing industry, to

3:50:203:50:26

highlight the concerns raced with me

and to implore the government to

3:50:263:50:33

give coastal communities acrows

Wales the assurance ups that they

3:50:333:50:36

deserve. The 400 vessel Welsh

fishing fleet operate in a

3:50:363:50:42

challenging environment. Facing

hostile conditions, and the

3:50:423:50:52

adidn'table and hardy Welsh fishing

industry has adapted to conditions,

3:50:523:50:57

focussing much of its attentions on

species, including sea bass, which

3:50:573:51:01

we have heard a lot about, and

amounts of shellfish. However, this

3:51:013:51:09

walks a fine line. A fisherman

describes how he lives

3:51:093:51:15

hand-to-mouth, not knowing if he

will meet financial obligations.

3:51:153:51:20

The Welsh fishermen's Association

has drawn attention to analysis that

3:51:203:51:26

underlines the precariousness of the

Welsh fishing fleet. A period of

3:51:263:51:40

four and this takes me tonne the

point of the trade issues at the

3:51:403:51:45

forefront of the Welsh fishermen's

minds.

3:51:453:51:50

There is a live and perishable

products. Tariff barriers have a

3:51:503:51:57

huge impact. Non-tariff barriers,

could be just if not more

3:51:573:52:02

devastating as was referred to this

afternoon. Trade in fresh food

3:52:023:52:06

produce is tricky at the best of

times but customs checks and delays

3:52:063:52:11

to the process of trade will cause

the value of the produce to

3:52:113:52:18

deteriorate, rendering trade

impossible in certain circumstances.

3:52:183:52:21

By gambling the existing trade

relationship with the EU we risk the

3:52:213:52:27

creation of customs checks. Empty

rhetoric of Africasless trade is

3:52:273:52:33

meaningless to the coastal

communities peering over the edge of

3:52:333:52:36

this cliff that the government

created. I will not apologising for

3:52:363:52:41

repeating a simple solution to the

problem: Retaining membership of the

3:52:413:52:45

customs union and the single market.

If the Welsh fishing industry is

3:52:453:52:50

decimated, as it could be if the

government carries on as it is,

3:52:503:52:54

investment is drained from the

coastal communities. There are

3:52:543:53:00

hard-hit, situations and money is

unlikely to return to them. So I

3:53:003:53:05

conclude the remarks by urging the

UK Government to reconsider the

3:53:053:53:10

position on the single market and

safeguard the viability of the Welsh

3:53:103:53:15

fishing community and to echo the

remarks mentioned earlier, as the UK

3:53:153:53:22

Government purr sues future markets

and trade deals it cannot come at

3:53:223:53:27

the expense of the today's fishing

fleechlt

3:53:273:53:33

There may be opportunities somewhere

in the intangible distance but if

3:53:333:53:38

there is no fleet left by the time

we get there, what is the point?

3:53:383:53:46

I look forward to making a

contribution. Yesterday, my

3:53:463:53:53

colleague met with the Minister to

discuss the forthcoming meetings. It

3:53:533:53:57

is always good to see the Minister.

He is a friend to the fisherman.

3:53:573:54:01

There is no better person to speak

on our behalf in this chamber. The

3:54:013:54:09

National Federation of fishermen's

organisations have a five step plan.

3:54:093:54:15

They mention in their brief that a

house divided amongst itself will

3:54:153:54:19

fall. In this House, the house is

united. All parties, all individuals

3:54:193:54:25

working together behind our

minister. Devolution of fishing is

3:54:253:54:29

necessary, but there is also room

for pragmatism to be shown where

3:54:293:54:34

appropriate, the ability to maintain

a United Kingdom- wide policy

3:54:343:54:38

framework, particularly when it

comes to licensing on the quota. It

3:54:383:54:42

is not serving the industry well

when buyers in the form of temporary

3:54:423:54:47

moratoriums are erected in the

transfer of quota units in the UK or

3:54:473:54:51

restrictions are paid our -- are

placed. Again, a confusing picture

3:54:513:54:57

emanate from Ireland, typified by

evidence to the Brexit committee

3:54:573:55:04

during a hearing. During that

session, contributors said up to 70%

3:55:043:55:09

of macro were taken from UK waters.

It seems it was all right, Madam

3:55:093:55:16

Deputy Speaker for them and other EU

fisherman to draw fisheries checks

3:55:163:55:22

from UK waters but not for others to

draw checks from the Irish waters.

3:55:223:55:28

Fisherman from Northern Ireland are

looking east to the rest of the UK

3:55:283:55:32

for their future, not south and

certainly not to the EU. They expect

3:55:323:55:36

the wrong is imposed by the CFP,

typified by the application of the

3:55:363:55:40

preference quota, removal of

preferences a red line, Minister in

3:55:403:55:48

relation to where we stand. It may

be convenient for the Irish South

3:55:483:55:53

government to blame the UK for with

drawl as a reason for not

3:55:533:55:57

progressing the sea fisheries

Amendment Bill, but the fact is that

3:55:573:56:00

their mind was made up beforehand to

direct a hard border against

3:56:003:56:04

fisherman from Northern Ireland. It

is with regret that the time has

3:56:043:56:14

come to withdraw from the agreement.

We would agree and urge the Minister

3:56:143:56:20

to acts soon. The Minister is well

versed in the matter. The Northern

3:56:203:56:29

Ireland Assembly have looked at this

and run a group and drive for 150

3:56:293:56:37

crew for local vessels. 30

expressions of interest from across

3:56:373:56:42

the EU, 19 candidates replied, six

attended interview, five candidates

3:56:423:56:46

were offered positions. So there are

145 places left. I commend the

3:56:463:56:54

honourable members who have spoken

about this before. The process is

3:56:543:56:57

not working and we need to do more.

I would ask the Minister to remember

3:56:573:57:04

the long-term card management plan

and to ensure that code is kept for

3:57:043:57:10

us and increased across Northern

Ireland. The Minister is well aware

3:57:103:57:17

of the importance to my

constituency, but also to others. I

3:57:173:57:23

finish with this. There are key

stocks for Northern Ireland. He

3:57:233:57:29

knows it, I know it. There is a

background of better news from the

3:57:293:57:35

Irish Sea. The European Commission

continues to find something to

3:57:353:57:38

create discontent and upset. This is

unacceptable.

3:57:383:57:50

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

This is the first time I have taken

3:57:513:57:55

part in the annual fishing debate

and I'm delighted to have the

3:57:553:57:58

opportunity to sum up for the SNP. I

was born in Aberdeen and have lived

3:57:583:58:04

most of my life there, but before I

was five I lived in the north-east

3:58:043:58:11

of Scotland. That little community

is still dominated by fishing to

3:58:113:58:21

this day. It has been historically.

My great great grandfather was

3:58:213:58:27

killed fishing when he was 34 during

the First World War. My grandfather,

3:58:273:58:39

John West, was a skipper of a 70

foot trawler from 1968 to 1975. So

3:58:393:58:54

in my family, the fishing in --

history is strong. It was a very

3:58:543:59:03

different landscape back them. A

very different attitude from people.

3:59:033:59:08

The boats were much smaller and

people stayed on one fishing boat

3:59:083:59:12

for much longer than they do

nowadays. So things have moved

3:59:123:59:17

significantly particularly since the

1970s but even in recent years. One

3:59:173:59:22

big change in recent years is the

increase in sustainability. We heard

3:59:223:59:28

somebody talking earlier about the

cod stocks. The reason there has

3:59:283:59:33

been that increase in sustainability

is because of the better management

3:59:333:59:36

of fishing stocks because of being

able to look at it scientifically

3:59:363:59:42

and sustainably and to ensure that

stocks continue to grow, and so that

3:59:423:59:46

we can secure for the long-term the

fishing industry in the north-east

3:59:463:59:50

of Scotland and the UK. Particularly

in the north-east of Scotland, 65%

3:59:503:59:57

of the tonnage of fish landed in the

UK by UK vessels is by Scottish

3:59:574:00:01

vessels. Over 50% of the fishing

jobs in the UK are in Scotland. That

4:00:014:00:09

is all of the jobs, but 56% of those

actually going out fishing, rather

4:00:094:00:14

than the processing side. There are

a number of concerns the SNP has

4:00:144:00:21

regularly raised about the way the

UK particularly deals with fishing.

4:00:214:00:26

The comments about the deficiencies

in the CFP have been raised by

4:00:264:00:30

members across the house. But

particularly in the way the UK

4:00:304:00:34

decides to divide up the quotas. The

top slice, as was mentioned,

4:00:344:00:41

continues to be age concern to us

which is disadvantaging Scottish

4:00:414:00:47

fishermen to allow coastal

communities to have more for their

4:00:474:00:50

ten metres and under in a vessels.

That is a major concern for us and

4:00:504:00:56

the Scottish Government has been

consistent in criticising that

4:00:564:00:58

policy. The other thing is the

package about Lou Whiting

4:00:584:01:05

particularly. We cannot be swapping

with Norway and not getting back

4:01:054:01:13

what our fisherman fish. That

continues to be a concern. We have

4:01:134:01:18

been consistent in criticism of the

way the UK Government has

4:01:184:01:22

prioritised the fishing industry. It

is incredibly important in the

4:01:224:01:26

north-east of Scotland. That is not

that we want less priority for

4:01:264:01:30

English fisherman and fisherman in

English coastal communities, but we

4:01:304:01:34

want to see more priority for those

that are trawling, particularly

4:01:344:01:38

fishing for whitefish from the

north-east of Scotland and across

4:01:384:01:43

the whole of Scotland it is a major

concern. Members have talked about

4:01:434:01:47

Brexit. I want to mention the

Newport and referred visions at

4:01:474:01:53

Peterhead. Over £5 million of the

money towards that refurbishment has

4:01:534:02:00

come from European money. 6 million

has come from the Scottish

4:02:004:02:03

Government, in order to improve the

port, which has been welcomed and a

4:02:034:02:09

new fish market is under way and

looking very positive. That could

4:02:094:02:13

not have been done without the

European money. We would like to see

4:02:134:02:18

clarity from the minister about what

will replace that, what will ensure

4:02:184:02:22

that we can continue to make our

fishing industry fit for the future,

4:02:224:02:26

particularly in terms of critical

infrastructure that is needed to

4:02:264:02:35

keep us... Peterhead lands a

significant proportion of the fish

4:02:354:02:38

across the UK, and we need to make

sure we continue to have the curve

4:02:384:02:42

on that. A couple more things. On

more Brexit issues, the honourable

4:02:424:02:52

member for South East Cornwall

specifically talked about trading

4:02:524:02:57

with France. One of the issues is

that few people seem to make the

4:02:574:03:02

link about how much we export to

France. We export 27.5% of our fish

4:03:024:03:09

exports to France, so it is

incredibly important for our fish

4:03:094:03:14

processors and fisherman, incredibly

important for everybody involved in

4:03:144:03:16

the fishing industry that we have a

trading deal with France and

4:03:164:03:21

therefore the whole of the EU, that

means that we can export that with

4:03:214:03:27

very little time being held up at

customs, particularly, and not with

4:03:274:03:32

up to 11% tariffs you would see

under WTO rules, which would be a

4:03:324:03:36

problem. As we mentioned, this will

cost the industry about £42 million,

4:03:364:03:42

an incredible amount. The last thing

is the way that the government is

4:03:424:03:48

prioritising looking at industries

which will be hit by Brexit. I am

4:03:484:03:53

not sure what level of

prioritisation they have, but what

4:03:534:03:55

they do have seems to be looking at

industries which are higher tax take

4:03:554:04:01

for the Treasury, the finance

industry, the car industry, for

4:04:014:04:03

example. I would like them to do

more of looking at communities that

4:04:034:04:08

will be decimated by the loss of a

certain industry, like fishing, and

4:04:084:04:12

give priority on that basis as well.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We

4:04:124:04:21

have had an excellent debate. Ahead

of the annual December council

4:04:214:04:26

meeting, can I start by thanking

those who have taken part in a

4:04:264:04:30

thoughtful, considerate discussion,

with representations which reflect

4:04:304:04:34

the diversity of fishing industry

taking part across the country. I

4:04:344:04:38

want to pay tribute to the

honourable member who secured the

4:04:384:04:42

debate, and for her insightful

speech, as this is a policy area

4:04:424:04:45

close to her heart. But I want to

echo the sentiments of my honourable

4:04:454:04:51

friend, as there have been tragedies

at sea since last year's debate. I

4:04:514:04:57

send our thoughts to those who have

lost loved ones and those who have

4:04:574:05:00

been injured at sea, and to ask the

honourable member for Totnes to send

4:05:004:05:08

condolences back to her constituency

following the tragedy she shared

4:05:084:05:11

with us in her speech. I want to

join members who have paid tribute

4:05:114:05:16

to the RNLI for their work and to

those organisations who do so much

4:05:164:05:21

to support the well-being of those

who have spent their lives fishing

4:05:214:05:24

at sea as well as their families. In

anticipation of this debate I looked

4:05:244:05:30

at Hansard for last year's

discussion. This is the second

4:05:304:05:35

fisheries debate since the

referendum and yet many of the

4:05:354:05:38

questions honourable members were

asking in 2016 are still being

4:05:384:05:42

asked. In the last 12 months we do

not seem to have moved closer

4:05:424:05:46

towards clarity on what a

post-Brexit fisheries policy will

4:05:464:05:51

mean for fishing communities up and

down the country. Whilst there is a

4:05:514:05:57

diversity and robust adaptability in

the UK fishing fleet which has

4:05:574:06:00

allowed it to whether rough seas and

changing political landscapes, it

4:06:004:06:04

depends where you are in the country

and what is being fished as to what

4:06:044:06:08

local fears and aspirations are for

post-Brexit policy. Last week, the

4:06:084:06:13

Labour Party law states consultation

ahead of the bill announced in the

4:06:134:06:18

Queen's Speech to ensure there was

an opportunity for those with an

4:06:184:06:20

interest to have a say in the

process and I'm looking forward to

4:06:204:06:24

going those submissions. The

Secretary of State for Fer has risen

4:06:244:06:31

expectations for significant uplift

in economic activity in the sector

4:06:314:06:36

which we are keen to see. I hope the

Minister can update the house on

4:06:364:06:42

what progress has been made to

prepare the UK in becoming an

4:06:424:06:47

independent coastal state and where

fishing features in the Brexit

4:06:474:06:49

negotiations. Can he tell us, when

the country leaves the EU, what will

4:06:494:06:55

the framework be for agreeing total

allowable catches as a means of

4:06:554:06:59

managing fish stocks shared with

neighbouring countries? Despite his

4:06:594:07:05

taking back control narrative, he

told the Danish market in August

4:07:054:07:08

that boats from EU countries will

still be able to operate in UK

4:07:084:07:11

waters after Brexit, as the UK does

not have capacity to catch and

4:07:114:07:16

process its fish alone. Like most of

the fishing industry, I am keen to

4:07:164:07:21

see the evidence upon which he has

based that decision. Can he explain

4:07:214:07:26

how the system will be managed, who

would have access to our waters and

4:07:264:07:30

what would the mechanism be for

agreeing allocations of quota to

4:07:304:07:34

vessels from the rest of the

European Union? In addition to the

4:07:344:07:38

question of our waters and access,

the other area of uncertainty is one

4:07:384:07:42

of trade, which has come up many

times. Whilst the level of

4:07:424:07:47

dependence on the European market

varies by sector, as we have heard,

4:07:474:07:52

up to 85% of crab, lobster and

prawns are sold into Europe. We will

4:07:524:07:57

need the freest possible trade with

our neighbours to satisfy the demand

4:07:574:08:01

from European consumers for our

shellfish. The point has already

4:08:014:08:04

been made by honourable members

including my honourable friend who

4:08:044:08:14

represent a constituency with a

thriving fish processing sector,

4:08:144:08:17

that when dealing with fresh produce

financial barriers are not the only

4:08:174:08:22

challenge, and ensuring there are no

delays to compromise the smooth and

4:08:224:08:25

timely movement of fish across

borders would be essential to

4:08:254:08:28

maintain existing routes to market

outside the UK. This was made clear

4:08:284:08:32

to me when I met with fishermen in

North Shields with my right

4:08:324:08:36

honourable friend who represented

his local fishing community

4:08:364:08:41

admirably this afternoon. Can I

thank him for his kind remarks,

4:08:414:08:44

which were kinder than when I worked

underneath him in the opposition

4:08:444:08:47

whips office.

4:08:474:08:54

What is reassuring and where we can

all agree is that there is firm

4:08:544:08:59

common ground across the fishing

industry, conservationist,

4:08:594:09:04

recreational fishing and consumers

alike that sustainable approach to a

4:09:044:09:09

new fishing policy is the only game

in town. But we need two things, we

4:09:094:09:14

have to get the science right,

confidence in managing fish stocks

4:09:144:09:19

and a means of enforcing the

approach. With this in mind I was

4:09:194:09:23

concerned that the number of fishing

vessels inspected has fallen from

4:09:234:09:32

1400 in 2011 slk 2012 to 278 in

2016/17. Would the minister agree

4:09:324:09:40

that for all the developments in

oaknology, the ability to aboard a

4:09:404:09:45

vessel will be essential to manage

the fish stocks. I hope in his

4:09:454:09:51

remarks that the minister will

communicate his vision and conFirst

4:09:514:09:56

Minister that the quad squadron will

be resourced to carry out its

4:09:564:10:01

objectives.

Another issue is the failure to

4:10:014:10:06

attract the next generation in

fishing. If we are to capitalise on

4:10:064:10:11

an increasing quota, then we will

need a new approach to training. The

4:10:114:10:17

Whitby fishing school explained the

difficulties in securing funding for

4:10:174:10:21

courses. Finding it difficult to

deliver courses that equip young

4:10:214:10:25

people to work at sea and tick the

boxes to secure funding for the

4:10:254:10:30

training and asks the government to

reflect if the framework is in place

4:10:304:10:34

to deliver apprenticeships is fit

for purpose in attracting and

4:10:344:10:38

retaining the fishermen and women of

tomorrow. Looking to funding and

4:10:384:10:45

infrastructure, the European

maritime and fisheries fund has

4:10:454:10:51

strategic investments that help

promote jobs. Over the coming years,

4:10:514:10:57

could the minister provide further

information to the House on the

4:10:574:11:01

plans in place for a replacement

fund and I am keen to hear his

4:11:014:11:05

response to the member for Stirling

around the support for

4:11:054:11:10

infrastructure to ab-Cold War

culture and turning to convagus.

4:11:104:11:13

There is a renewed public awareness

of the need for action to preserve

4:11:134:11:18

Marine environments as a result of

Blue Planet. And as has been pointed

4:11:184:11:29

out, over 10 million people are

tuning in to watch it every week. As

4:11:294:11:34

anyone who has seen the show, will

appreciate, there is no better

4:11:344:11:38

showcase of our Marine life, showing

how stunning and also how vulnerable

4:11:384:11:43

it is. We are proud of our record in

access acts and the minister will be

4:11:434:11:53

aware of the Blue Belt pledges that

include the goals to establish a

4:11:534:12:00

Marine protected areas and to

establish a fully protected areas of

4:12:004:12:06

50% of essential island waters in

2019. I hope that the minister

4:12:064:12:12

reaffirms this commitment. Marine

protection and fisheries management

4:12:124:12:16

are two sides of the same coin, to

get it right and set the standards

4:12:164:12:22

around the world we can secure a

flourishing Marina environment and

4:12:224:12:28

profitable fisheries sector. The

need from the government has been

4:12:284:12:32

the theme today. On many of the

biggest questions faced by the

4:12:324:12:37

fisheries sector, we are still in

the dark in the detail.

4:12:374:12:41

There are many opportunities for our

fishermen and women and those in

4:12:414:12:46

related sectors as we leave the EU

but we need to see the road map how

4:12:464:12:51

to deliver that. And that being

said, can I take the opportunity to

4:12:514:12:56

wish the minister the best for the

upcoming council meeting. We all

4:12:564:13:01

have a vested interest in it going

well and fingers crossed that he is

4:13:014:13:06

a better negotiator with our

European neighbours than perhaps

4:13:064:13:10

some of his colleagues.

Thank you very much.

4:13:104:13:15

Can I thank the honourable lady for

her good wishes of the negotiations

4:13:154:13:18

that we have coming up. I would like

to congratulate the member for South

4:13:184:13:23

East Cornwall and the APPG on

fishers for securing this debate and

4:13:234:13:28

it takes place at a crucial time.

Crucial because at this time of year

4:13:284:13:33

every year, in November and

December, we have a series of

4:13:334:13:37

important fisheries negotiations and

this is the fifth year to attend the

4:13:374:13:43

December Fisheries Council and

because of the context, the fact we

4:13:434:13:49

are leafing the European Union and

working on a future of fisheries

4:13:494:13:53

policies. Fishing, ab-Cold War

culture and fish processing is an

4:13:534:13:58

important industry for this country.

Contributing £1.5 billion to the

4:13:584:14:03

economy and employing 33,000 people.

The member for Stirling pointed out

4:14:034:14:09

the great potential for

autobiographying Cold War culture

4:14:094:14:12

and we have seen fantastic results

with the Scottish salmon industry, a

4:14:124:14:16

great export and I am more than

happy to meet and discuss his

4:14:164:14:21

thoughts and proposals to take that

forward in his constituency. But it

4:14:214:14:24

is also the case that the catching

sector is vital to many of our

4:14:244:14:29

coastal communities as the sheer

number of contributions that we have

4:14:294:14:32

had today is testament to. We have

had testaments from Northern

4:14:324:14:38

Ireland, Cornwall, Wales, Scotland,

contributions from the East Coast,

4:14:384:14:42

and from the channel around our

country the, sorry if I missed one.

4:14:424:14:49

And Devon.

And this is an industry that has

4:14:494:14:56

vital significance to our coastal

communities. We mow it is a

4:14:564:15:00

dangerous occupation.

I know that my friend, the member

4:15:004:15:06

for South East Cornwall suffered a

personal tragedy in the regard and I

4:15:064:15:10

pay tribute to the work done on

issues like Marine safety. In 2017

4:15:104:15:19

five mishermen lost their lives --

fishermen lost their lives and our

4:15:194:15:23

thoughts are with their families. We

have had personal accounts of people

4:15:234:15:29

that experienced tragedy in their

constituencies, including from the

4:15:294:15:34

members from Plymouth, Sutton and

Devenport and from Totnes and

4:15:344:15:39

Tynemouth a talking about a memorial

in his constituency and the member

4:15:394:15:45

fob Aberdeen North givering a

personal account of an ancestor that

4:15:454:15:49

suffered a tragedy in the area. I

turn the negotiations. The first

4:15:494:15:53

thing to note is the honourable

member for West Aberdeenshire had

4:15:534:16:01

pointed out that there are serious

negotiations that take place. For

4:16:014:16:04

Scotland and for the constituencies

such as Shetland and Orkney and

4:16:044:16:11

constituencies like Banff and

Buchan, the negotiations that

4:16:114:16:14

matter, perhaps more than any other,

are the annual EU Norway bilateral.

4:16:144:16:20

This year we have seen positive

outcomes from the negotiations which

4:16:204:16:24

concluded last week in Bergen. With

the discard ban uplifts included

4:16:244:16:31

since the stocks are now at MS wide

and increases of cod at 10% and 24%

4:16:314:16:39

in haddock and in Whiting and for

the first time in some time a

4:16:394:16:44

significant increase in herring. We

have also taken place at the moment,

4:16:444:16:49

the annual coastal states

negotiations, which includes other

4:16:494:16:53

neighbouring countries, not in the

European Union but including

4:16:534:16:58

countries such as Pharaoh's and

Iceland and indeed Russia. There is

4:16:584:17:03

a third round of the negotiations

yesterday. There was a sticking

4:17:034:17:11

point in the negotiations on herring

with Russia, so the negotiations are

4:17:114:17:14

ongoing. But the point of

significance for the Scottish

4:17:144:17:18

industry in particular, is that we

have limited the cut on the mackerel

4:17:184:17:23

to around 20% to do a staged

reduction to ensure that we keep the

4:17:234:17:30

stock at MSY, this follows several

years where there has been positive

4:17:304:17:34

outlooks for the stocks. Turning to

December council next week. For 2017

4:17:344:17:40

of the 45 quota stocks in which the

UK has an interest. 29 are at MSY

4:17:404:17:46

and it remains a priority for the

government to progress more stocks

4:17:464:17:51

to MSY next year in 2018. This year

for the first time in many years, we

4:17:514:17:55

have seen a more positive outlook in

the Irish Sea in particular, the

4:17:554:18:03

scientific advice on net robs that

is positive and we believe it

4:18:034:18:07

positive to get area 7A earlier than

anticipated. We are seeing the

4:18:074:18:14

science supporting uplifts for cod

and haddock although from a low

4:18:144:18:18

base.

There is positive news on the East

4:18:184:18:23

Coast and on the eastern channel for

skates and rays, which is important

4:18:234:18:29

for the south coast fishermen with

the science supporting increase, and

4:18:294:18:33

we are likely to see a roll over in

the Celtic sea. I want to carry on

4:18:334:18:39

to cover points. It was pointed out

that the Celtic sea is challenging.

4:18:394:18:46

There is mixed fishery analysis but

with regards to Whiting, cod,

4:18:464:18:52

haddock, there is continued

challenges and we are working with

4:18:524:18:55

the scientists to address that. We

have also seen changes with the

4:18:554:19:00

commission keen to progress a

prohibition on the landing of eel

4:19:004:19:05

and the UK's signalled that we are

supporting that but we don't belief

4:19:054:19:09

that Marine capture is the only

area, and to look at the impact on

4:19:094:19:13

eels inshore. And as a number

pointed out we anticipate that bass

4:19:134:19:17

will again be a controversial issue

this year. Three years ago as

4:19:174:19:23

Fisheries Minister I pushed for

emergency measures for bass as the

4:19:234:19:28

stock was in a precarious state and

tried to get the balance right

4:19:284:19:33

between the axes taken on

recreational anglers and the actions

4:19:334:19:38

on commercial fishing. We argued

there should be a lower catch limit

4:19:384:19:42

for the hook and line commercial

fishermen in order to create

4:19:424:19:46

headroom to give leeway for

recreational anglers. I am making a

4:19:464:19:52

similar argument this year. But the

scientific evidence has not been

4:19:524:19:57

benchmarked to take account of the

measures introduced. It could be

4:19:574:20:00

that the right thing is to review

the bass situation properly in March

4:20:004:20:05

and we are pointing that out at

well. A number of members talked

4:20:054:20:10

about future policy. Everyone is

aware that it is our intention, our

4:20:104:20:14

plan to bring in a fisheries bill in

this session. We will early next

4:20:144:20:22

year publish a detailed proposal on

the bill. We anticipate that the

4:20:224:20:27

Fisheries Bill will be introduced

during the course of the next year.

4:20:274:20:31

Probably the summer. That will set

out our approach, when we leave the

4:20:314:20:37

European Union to become an

independent coastal state, taking

4:20:374:20:40

control for our economic zone out to

200 #3450i8s or the median lined

4:20:404:20:46

working with our neighbours to agree

issues such as access and quota

4:20:464:20:51

shares. And asked what was the basis

for the quota allocations, we are

4:20:514:20:56

looking at the issue of zonal

attachment, that most people

4:20:564:21:01

recognise as the fairest way to do

this. And turning to points made and

4:21:014:21:08

asked if we have historical catch

data. We do. As was pointed out, the

4:21:084:21:13

UK catch is about 100,000 tonnes of

fish a year in EU waters and EU very

4:21:134:21:20

wells catch some 750,000 tonnes in

our waters. So there is an imbalance

4:21:204:21:25

there. And the Secretary of State

has visited the Faroe Islands to

4:21:254:21:33

discuss the approach that they take.

It is argued that the six to 12 mile

4:21:334:21:39

zone should be preserved for the UK

vessels but as was pointed out,

4:21:394:21:44

there are issues such as island and

such agreements that we are

4:21:444:21:49

commitmented to and we support. So

turning to the member for Exeter who

4:21:494:21:55

argued we would lose influence

leaving the EU, I understand the

4:21:554:22:01

argument but do not agree. At the

moment in the EU, our influence is

4:22:014:22:06

limited to the size of our qualifies

majority vote. We are unable to get

4:22:064:22:10

the changes that we want and to

support the pro-science conservation

4:22:104:22:15

measures we want. When we leave the

EU the influence is defined by the

4:22:154:22:19

scale of the fisheries resource that

we have and the need of the European

4:22:194:22:24

countries to have access to it.

There will be a bilateral UK/EU

4:22:244:22:30

annual fisheries negotiations and

the UK will be in a stronger

4:22:304:22:33

position. I am sorry for those

members I have not been able to

4:22:334:22:37

address, I know that there were many

points raced. Time is short. I wish

4:22:374:22:42

to give my honourable friend, the

member to South East Cornwall an

4:22:424:22:47

opportunity to reply.

18 back bench speeches from all

4:22:474:22:52

around the coast. Thank you very

much colleagues. I am sure that the

4:22:524:22:57

ministers got the message. One from

me, please, do not sacrifice access

4:22:574:23:02

to resources because you think you

might get access to the market.

4:23:024:23:05

Thank you very much.

The question is that this House has

4:23:054:23:11

considered the UK fishing industry

as many of that opinion say aye, the

4:23:114:23:19

contrary no, the ayes have it, the

ayes have it.

I beg that the House

4:23:194:23:25

do now adjourn.

The yes is that the House do now

4:23:254:23:29

adjourn.

4:23:294:23:39