07/12/2017 House of Commons

Four Seasons. Beyond that, I cannot

say much, commercial issues for

them. He is right to raise it and I

hope I can reassure him CQC close to

what is happening.

Point of order.

On September the 13th of this year,

this House unanimously passed a

motion to revoke the higher

education regulations 2016 which

imposed the Government's latest hike

in tuition fees. The Government have

refused to give effect to the will

of the House but the leader promised

under her new convention we would

get a statement within 12 weeks. Mr

Deputy Speaker, like yesterday, the

final day of the 12 weeks, we got a

written statement, it added almost

nothing new and left us none the

wiser on the Government's promised

review of higher education funding.

It confirmed however that the

Government will continue to ignore

the clear will of this House and our

conventions allowing Parliament's

say on that meat secondary

legislation. I would like to ask if

you can tell us your understanding

of the so-called convention? -- on

the secondary legislation. As the

Leader of the House giving you an

indication of when ministers should

or will respond by all statements

rather than written to the House and

can you give us any guidance on how

the House can have a say on

secondary legislation? This

government is riding roughshod over

the democratic will of this House.

How can we ensure this House is

respected?

I think we have heard

enough today. Right. Thank you to

the honourable member for giving me

notice of the question. She has

asked quite a few things. The

Minister, let us go through it, has

made a detailed written statement on

the matter yesterday which has

followed the Leader of the House

understanding of the 26th of

September. If the honourable member

finds this unsatisfactory which

obviously she does, there are

various avenues open, most

immediately, education questions on

Monday, I am sure that is already

apparent as a good place to start.

The Leader of the House's new

convention, as a senior

frontbencher, she may wish to pursue

the matter through the usual

channels. I hope they will be open

to try to ensure you get the answer.

If not, and I know you are not a

shy, retiring Northerner like

myself, I am sure you could go

directly and have a meeting with the

Leader of the House to take it

forward. No more further points of

order. We now come to prison reform

and safety. Welcome to the bank

which motion on prison reformers

safety. -- backbench motion on

prison reform and safety.

Can I

start by thanking the Backbench

Business Committee for having given

us the opportunity to bring this

debate to the floor of the House on

this very important topic? Can I

also thank the co-sponsor of the

motion, right honourable member and

other members of the committee on

both sides of the House who have

contributed to our work over the

last two years or more in this

Parliament and the one beyond? I

also wanted a tank the organisations

involved in prison reform -- I also

wanted to thank. They have assisted

us with advice and experience, as

well as indeed the cooperation as a

committee from officials of Her

Majesty's prison and probation

service and prison officers across

the country. They are all deserving

of our thanks. I will give way. You

will appreciate... I would like to

make a bit of progress.

I would like

to check the honourable member made

a visit to the prison as part of the

investigations and saw the fantastic

work done there with invisible walls

making people's huge difference to

people's attitudes as to how prison

can prevent reoffending?

We visit a

number of prisons on a regular

basis, we are aware of the good work

done at Park. I hope people

understand if I try to develop what

causes us to bring the motion to

this house and the terms in which we

do it. We cannot avoid the reality

that our prison system has reached a

stage where we have to use the

phrase a crisis now. It does not

come lightly. Over 30 years of

experience practising criminal law

on the visiting prisons to advise

prisoners and subsequently working

in the criminal justice sector with

since I have been in this House.

This leads me to the inevitable

conclusion we are seeing a system

under unprecedented strain. I say

that not for one second outing the

good intentions of the Minister on

the bench today or his predecessors,

not doubting the good intentions of

the current Secretary of State or

his predecessors, and not doubting

the good intentions of the

management of Her Majesty's prison

and probation service and the real

good work we see when we go around

the country carried out by many

individuals within that service.

But... Can I develop this point

customer but the reality is, despite

extra money being put into the

system over the last year or so

following the report, despite the

good work, all of the indicators

when we looked at the situation in

both our two reports, on safety and

reform in the 2016 sessions, all the

indicators then and since going in

the wrong direction. I will give

way.

I'm really grateful. I am

really grateful to the right

honourable gentleman... Although he

deserves it, not yet! I agree very

much with the point he is making.

Does he agreed the truth is we

simply incarcerate too many people,

particularly people with mental

health problems, a staggering

percentage of people in prison have

mental health problems? And many

also have autism or learning

disabilities. We need to get people

the treatment they need to help them

avoid the criminal justice system in

the longer run.

The right honourable

gentleman raises an important point,

I personally agree with him.

Although it is not directly touched

upon in the reports giving rise to

this debate, our committee has

agreed not to embark upon a new

inquiry looking at the prison

population up to 2025, projections.

The issues he raises will be

important in that inquiry. I give

way.

I am most grateful. Does he

agree with me that levels of

literacy among prisoners is a

problem and I understand that over

30% of people in prison have a

reading age of an 11-year-old

customer isn't this something that

does need to be addressed?

-- an

11-year-old? He is right. The

previous Secretary of State

reflected upon it and emphasised on

a number of occasions that

absolutely correctly, if we do not

turn our prisons into places of

education, we will be failing and we

will continue to see reoffending. It

is a real issue. Part of the problem

is the low attainment of those

people when they come in, very often

linked with considerable numbers of

other issues of social deprivation,

lack of proper parenting very often,

unstable family backgrounds,

particularly high percentage having

been in care, for example. The

educational attainment is... Can I

just finished? It needs to be

tackled. One of the real concerns we

have found is that because of other

pressures on the system, many

establishments are running regime is

so restricted it is virtually

impossible for prisoners even those

who are well motivated, to access

some of the educational facilities

which ought to be there. The most

important point. I am grateful. I

will give way.

Would my honourable friend agree

with me that actorly prison can

offer a second chance at that

education and finding the right

track? Very often charities like

Green and Gross, who work in the

prison is a notebook in particular,

but who I work within my

constituency, actually help enable

people to understand and connect

with the environment and learn about

food and nutrition and the basics of

life that many of us take for

granted?

I do recognised very good

work that is done. But we need to

have a programme of prison reform

that genuinely enables us to draw

that good work together, and puts it

under a comprehensive and holistic

strategy. For example the very good

work that is done by many of those

people on those programmes ought to

be reinforced by a more imaginative

use of release on temporary licence

as we follow that up. Sadly we have

seen a decrease of about 40% of

release on temporary licence over

the last couple of decades. That is

an indicator going in the wrong

direction.

I right honourable friend

might agree with me that if we could

engage many more of these outside

bodies, local authorities, experts

in health, the environment, like the

wildlife trust, who have good

programmes on rear dilatation, we

could save money if we had the right

framework set up a benefit those

offenders going on the causes

because we would help to skill them

up and give them confidence going

into the outside world?

My

honourable friend is right and I

can't do better than quote from a

19th-century American Prison Reform

Trust, Osborne. A politician, a

return to good works, which might

seem like a tautology, but he became

immersed in the prison system and

became prisons reform commissioner

in New York just before the First

World War. He said this and it is

true today: Not until we think about

prisons as in reality education

institutions shall we come within

sight of a successful system. And by

successful system, he said I mean

one that not only ensures a quiet,

orderly, well-behaved prison, but

restores to society the largest

number of intelligent and honest

citizens. He was right then and it

rings true now as well.

Thank you

very much, Deputy Speaker, and thank

you very much, my honourable friend.

I was recently very glad to speak to

a group of sixth form students

studying modern studies and they

asked me about prisons and I said in

the first opportunity I would ask

one of their questions on the floor

of the Mouse. My honourable friend

is so well versed on the subject so

I will literally asking one of their

questions. Do you think the support

offered to those prisoners with

mental health disorders is

effective?

All be evidence our

committee has seen so far is that it

is not effective at the present

time. We have far too many people in

Britain suffering from mental health

difficulties. The former Prime

Minister David Cameron stressed that

point very rightly in a speech back

in late 2015. In February. My

honourable friend remembers it

vividly. The point is that the

loosely well-made. While there are

some people who we will always have

to imprison or deserve to go to

prison, and I saw another of those

in my career as a barrister in

criminal law, there are many others

who are therefore other more complex

reasons. Bad choices, lack of

support, lack of background, poor

education. Issues around mental

health. We need to be much more

discerning and to do that, we need

to have a much more sophisticated

approach to our penal policy,

including putting in place genuinely

robust alternatives to custody in

the right places for those who are

not a threat and a danger to the

public and who can be reformed

without going into prison. That is

critical. We have not yet achieved

that. We have got to have a system

in which both sentences and the

public have confidence, and proper

rehabilitation for those who are

incarcerated. But since virtually

everybody will be released at some

point or other, we must make sure we

released them in a better state to

contribute to society than we do at

the moment. I will give way and then

I will have to make some progress.

He is absolutely right to emphasise

the issue of education and

rehabilitation, but can I also add

to that the critical role of access

to family? And can I commence to him

the Joint Committee on Human Rights

report on mental health in prisons

and looking at the risks to young

people in particular about offenders

with mental health problems who

didn't always guarantee access to

family support at critical times

when they were self harming and at

risk of suicide?

I know other

honourable friend of mine are likely

to take up those points in the

course of the event. Can I finally

make these points? While we welcome

the number of the initiative the

government are taken, there is still

more that needs to be done. We

particularly regret the loss of the

prison element of the prison and

courts built from the last

Parliament because placing that

statutory purpose including

rehabilitation for prisons would

have been an important umbrella, if

you like, to link up the work that

is done. But having a proper prison

reform and safety plan is welcome

and that is good news but again we

need to put that into a full

context, and we need to seek

positive actions and not just the

good aspirations that are set out.

Having a genuinely independent and

robust inspectorate is essential. It

is therefore regrettable again that

we have so far lost the opportunity

to place not just the chief

inspector of prisons but the whole

inspectorate as an institution on

the statutory basis and to

strengthen the requirement for his

recommendations to be complied with.

It is pretty scandalous at the

moment that a minority of his

recommendations in some cases are

dealt with. That needs to change.

Similarly placing the prison

ombudsman on the statutory books,

and regrettably we are not there

yet. I hope we will find legislative

opportunities to do this and I

believe that is where the minister

would like to go but we must not

lose that off the agenda. We know

and others will refer to the fact

that at the moment our indicators on

safety both in relation to self

harm, suicide, prison on prisoner

assault and assaults on staff

continue to go in the wrong

direction. More prison officers have

been put in but it comes back to the

point that we have got to look in

the round at how many people we are

sending to prison and why and what

sort of regimes they have. We have

seen reference to an action plan on

prison safety and reform. What we

hope to see our specific strategies

unemployment, mental health, women

in prison, and specific strategies

around retention and recruitment of

officers, thus keeping experienced

officers, which is particularly

important. A proper robust

inspection mechanism where the

inspectorate including excellent

people are genuinely able to do what

is necessary. Wheels and a tad more

transparency. I know my honourable

friend the member for Banbury is

going to talk about transparency and

data. -- we also need more

transparency. It cannot be right

that the 29 Britons inspected this

year, 21 were judged not to be poor

or good. -- of the 29 prisons

inspected this year, 21 were judged

to be poor or not good. We need to

use the changes that have been made

to the structure of the prison and

probation service to refresh that

culture at every level. I think that

is the most pressing matter. There

is great work done further down but

all too often prison officers and

governors have said to us that they

feel cut out sometimes of what can

still be too hierarchical in the

chain of command. That needs to

change. Prison reform at the end of

the day was rightly described by

David Cameron as being a great

progressive cause. It should be, it

should be for politicians on all

sides of the political divide. A

former Home Secretary who became

Prime Minister said that one of the

purposes of prisoner was to seek the

treasure in the heart of every man.

That was Winston Churchill in 1910.

I say to the Prime Minister, having

had the same career trajectory, that

sort of phrase would have a very

good fit with their desire to tackle

the burning injustices in society

because some of the injustices and

challenges in prisons are as acute

in our society as anywhere else. We

hope to have more specific responses

from the minister to the reports we

have made and a further indication

of the direction of travel. And

above all, I hope this House will

not let the issue slide away down

the agenda.

The question is as on

the order paper. David Hanson.

Thank

you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Five

minutes. Starting from now! Thank

you, Mr Deputy Speaker. This is a

particularly hard-hitting motion. If

members and honourable members read

the motion, they will see it is not

drawing back challenges the prison

service faces. It is important today

that as a select committee we focus

on specific issues, and we will do

this, and put to the minister what

the response of the government will

be to those major challenges. As the

honourable member for Bromley and

Chislehurst, the very good chair of

the select committee, has said,

those challenges are deteriorating.

The situation is getting worse. The

problems in prisons are

exacerbating. While staff are doing

an excellent job and trying their

best in difficult circumstances, it

is clear that when we face a

situation where we have 300 deaths

in prison custody in the last 12

months, of which 77 were

self-inflicted, when we see self

harm reaching record highs and

increasing by 12% over the 12

months, when we see the number of

incidents requiring hospital

attendance rising by 9% over the

past 12 months, when we seek

prisoner on prisoner assaults rising

to record highs, or when we see for

example assaults on staff continuing

to rise, and when we see the number

of hospital admissions continuing to

rise, there is some real talent in

the system. I would contend there is

a challenge because of a reduction

in resource. There is a challenge

because of reduction in staff but

there is also a challenge because of

the increase in the amount of

psychoactive substances and drugs

getting into prison. It is a

difficult job and a difficult

challenge but if we don't get the

basics right in our prison system,

then the elements of reform, rear

dilatation and turning out positive

individuals back into society will

be hampered by those incidents. --

reform and rehabilitation.

With

people taking their own lives that

the rate of one every three days in

the last year, does he agree that

the prison service should set to

zero suicide ambition and we should

be seeking to save every life and it

is intolerable that so many people

are losing their lives in the prison

system?

Absolutely. The threat

assessment and self harm assessment

are extremely important but that

requires staffing to keep a watch on

individuals and to support them

through challenging mental health

problems very often, particularly in

the first few days and weeks of

incarceration where people are

coming off alcohol and drugs, or

arriving in prison with severe

mental health challenges. The reason

this is important, Mr Deputy

Speaker, is because in my view we

need to look at how we can tackle

these issues in a positive way. One

of the real challenges is to ensure

that we do undertake very strongly a

review of the strategy, particularly

on psychoactive substances and

drugs. The government has said for

example that it has rolled out tests

were psychoactive substances across

the state. Perhaps the minister can

tell us how many today have taken

place at what the outcome would be?

The government has said they have

trained 300 dogs to detect

psychoactive substances. Perhaps the

minister can tell us whether every

prison has access to the dogs and

how many of the dogs are ensuring

that we tackle and catch substances

that are smuggled in? The government

has said it is making possession of

psychoactive substances in prison is

a criminal offence and I would look

at how we monitor and enforce that

legislation. I think the minister

should look at introducing planned

searches in prisons of prisoners. I

think it is important that the

minister looks that prison officers

in particular, and whether there

should be searches of prison

officers and delivery staff. I spoke

to prison officers this week he

would welcome that because they want

to weed out potential corruption

among members of staff and I think

it is important that we have some

indication of how that will be

undertaken generally. I want to see

if the minister wants to undertake

particularly further steps to ensure

that all category C prisons have

netting around them to stop

individuals throwing material into

prisons for drugs. I want to see and

ensure that we have the

re-establishment of the dogs units,

not just regionalised resource which

they are now, but also a local

resource which can be allocated

locally. I think it is important

that we look at particularly the

criminal gangs inside prison and

outside prison making money from the

delivery of drugs into prison

through many means as a whole. What

I don't get from the government and

I think this is shared by external

agencies like the Inspectorate of

prisons, is what the overall

strategy is. There are individual

measures but I don't get the overall

strategy. I would like some

indication from the minister as to

what is happening with regard to

reformed prisons. Yesterday we had a

report about a prison which showed

that every indicator was going in

the wrong direction. All those

indicators were causing more drugs,

more self harm, more attacks on

staff in a reformed prison. I think

we need to know who is accountable

for that and what the plan is to

drive improvements in that prison

forward.

Time is pressing. When his other

minister came to the Justice

Committee, recently, he talked about

Oak Hill training centre, I asked

him a question, is the Minister

satisfied the performance now is at

a level you are satisfied with? The

Minister replied, currently, they

are. Since that report and inquiry

discussion, there has been a report

which has shown yet again that the

establishment is not performing to

the standards it should do and I

want to know from the Minister, what

concrete steps are being taken to

improve performance and if the

improvement is not made, will the

Minister seek to remove the contract

from G4S?

Thank you. It is a

pleasure to follow both honourable

gentleman and to work with them on

the committee. I should apologise to

the House I will not be here for

wind ups, I have already apologised

to the Minister and the Deputy

Speaker. My heart is currently in

the High Court where my District

Council and brilliant campaigning

group is bringing a judicial review

against the Clinical Commissioning

Group for their failure to consult

us properly on changes to our local

hospital. I will be going there

immediately after I have spoken.

Nothing else could stop me from

talking about prisons. As colleagues

in this house know very well! I

realised my time in the judicial

review yesterday how much I as a

former civil servant care about

evidence and about good government.

That is why I am going to focus on

data and the importance of data

provision in what I say today. I am

disappointed the prisons and courts

Bill did not make it into the

Parliamentary session but I accept

many of the changes envisaged do not

require legislation but can be taken

forward in other ways. These changes

must be driven by reliable

performance data. In my two and a

half years on the committee, we have

asked successive ministers for

up-to-date information on prison

safety indicators, such as,

incidents of disorder, staffing

levels, activity levels, including

number of hours each day prisoners

spend locked in their cells. Our

efforts have resulted in better

quality data on recruitment and

retention but we have struggled to

scrutinise the Government's efforts

to improve the situation because we

have not received the information we

need. The Secretary of State

delivered welcome news when he

appeared in front of the committee

in October and told us about the

justice data hub which went live the

following day. I would encourage

honourable members but not in the

course of the debate to look up the

justice data hub on the Ministry of

Justice website. It holds

information ranging from the

perception of prisoners on safety,

programme completions and deaths in

custody. I am far from techie, but I

found it easy to use. A step in the

right direction. But much of the

information is based on annual

statistical releases. If we are

really committed to reform, we need

more data that drills down on

specifics. We need to know how much

time prisoners are spent locked in

cells on a daily basis and work out

whether the funding given to the

most under pressure prisons has

actually had an impact. I am in

regular contact with the governor of

a prison in my constituency, he was

very understanding when I had to

postpone our meeting scheduled for

this afternoon. The prison recently

underwent an inspection and areas of

improvement were identified. Without

comparative performance data, and

knowing where he stands in

comparison with other prisons, it is

very difficult for governor to feel

genuinely empowered to achieve

better outcomes we are looking for.

We must also know more about what

our prisoners are doing when they

have completed their sentences. The

online hub can tell us how prepared

they feel for release but nothing

more about those who find housing or

employment after they have left

prison. We know there are fantastic

organisations working to prepare

prisoners for release. The Langley

house trust provides specialist

housing and programmes supporting

the community for people seeking to

live crime free, just 2.6% of the

people their housing are

re-convicted, one of the lowest

rates in the country. I will give

way.

Does she share my concern

therefore that Westminster council's

rough sleeping strategy, the borough

with the highest incidence of rough

sleeping in the country, they found

one in three rough sleepers had been

released from prison? We absolutely

have to put them in a secure home,

central to the issue of prisoner

release.

I could not agree more that

housing is absolutely key to proper

rehabilitation of offenders. I do

not think I would be breaching any

confidences if I said the Justice

Select Committee will be trying to

work with other select committees in

Parliament to ensure we cover the

issues related to housing fully in

the coming parliamentary session.

Another organisation transforms

lives through the challenge to

change programme including

post-release mentoring. To break the

cycle of reoffending, we must have

more data to target projects like

these. But come on a data driven

department is a laudable ambition

but it is vital the statistics do

more than scratch the surface. Safe

and decent prison conditions

promoting rehabilitation, it is

complex. It must be well rounded in

evidence, finding solutions to the

problems our prisons face requires

us to delve much deeper than we have

done. In conclusion, off I go to

court to deal with the way good

government is run, but I would ask

all honourable members to remember

when considering prisons that data

really matters.

Thank you, Mr Deputy

Speaker. As a newly elected member

of the Commons Justice Select

Committee, it gives me pleasure to

speak in the debate. Last Thursday,

members of the committee visited HMP

Rochester. It holds 740 prisoners

and conditions in the Victorian

prison were described as deplorable

by the independent monitoring board.

In March, 2017, the Government

announced it would be closed and

replaced. In October, 2017, it was

put on hold. Many of the facilities

are in a state of disrepair. For

instance, the classroom in which

rehabilitation lessons took place

had a leaking roof. I will give way.

Allah on that point,

-- on that

point, it is extremely important we

go and have the data around the

importance in terms of training and

education and in terms of the

prisoners education trust and the

Ministry of Justice report,

reoffending goes down by an average

five percentage points, extremely

important.

I thank my honourable

friend for that intervention and I

agree education is absolutely at the

heart of the rehabilitation of

offenders and such a crucial point

which is why at Rochester, when it

rains, lessons have to be cancelled

because the roof leaks, it has to be

urgently addressed, if we are to

reform our prisons and improve

standards. Visiting cells in

Rochester, we saw prisoners in

cramped and sanitary conditions. One

housed three men with a toilet

screened by little more than plastic

sheeting and no toilet lid. The

perimeter fence is low and not

comprehensively covered by CCTV.

This has led to drugs, particularly

spice and other psychoactive

substances, frequently being thrown

over the fence, with 47 drug-related

instances been reported in just one

week. We were told it would cost

£300,000 to install CCTV system fit

for purpose and the benefits would

be immeasurable. Wheels are visited

the drug rehabilitation wing but the

12-step rehabilitation programme had

to stop when the prison received its

now rescinded closure notice. These

are the conditions the Governor and

the staff at HMP Rochester are

battling with on a daily basis and I

want to commend the work they do.

One of the key factors in

rehabilitation and safety in prisons

is the prison population. It has

been fluctuating around the 85,000

mark for nearly a decade and as of

this month, it now stands at 80

6000. The Government has repeatedly

been asked why the numbers continue

to grow and their answer usually

follows the template that more

people are convicted of six related

offences and serving longer

sentences -- sex related offences.

But we must also look at the wider

picture to understand fully why our

prison population continues to rise.

We cannot look at offences and

sentence length alone to answer the

question. Long-term cuts to mental

health services, addiction support

and housing have played a part and

had an impact on the prison

population through reoffending

rates. The Ministry of Justice

latest figures for 2015 have shown

that 29.6% of offenders in the

October- December 20 15th cohort

reoffended within a year. Cuts mean

less support when they are

individuals who require more than

most. The no fixed abode study from

2016 estimated a third of released

prisoners have no accommodation to

go to when leaving prison. The

combined homelessness and

information network report on rough

sleeping in London showed 33% of

people seem sleeping rough had some

experience of being in prison. Let

me repeat that, a third of all

prisoners are likely to be homeless

upon release.

I will give way. Would

she not agree with me it plays into

the point of the honourable member

for Banbury about not being able to

keep the data, it is well to health

outcomes of those who seek rough are

less good and we find ourselves in

this never-ending cycle bouncing

between the street, prison, in and

out of the system, with little care

and attention to find the treasure

in that man's soul, as the

honourable underside?

I thank her

for the intervention and one of the

issues raised is people in prison

for short sentences of two, three

months. -- the honourable member

said. There is no chance for there

to be rehabilitation in that time.

What we need to look closely at this

community-based sentencing for

people so they can get

rehabilitation and come out of the

cycle of prison and homelessness,

prison and homelessness. A very

important point. In order to reduce

reoffending rates, we need to stop

the spiral of prison services being

eviscerated, leaving inmates with

little help in their rehabilitation

work. I think it is a commonly held

view across this House that prison

is not merely there to punish

offenders, protect society and act

as a deterrent, it must also exist

to rehabilitate and re-educate.

These aims can ultimately reduce the

risk of reoffending by providing

services to inmates that will

provide them with the necessary

skills which upon their release from

prison mean they will be best

equipped to fit back into society

and mitigate their chances of

falling into that cycle of criminal

behaviour. When prisoners are

incarcerated, the state is

responsible for their well-being. We

must not view this responsibility

lightly. If we are to reduce crime

and in turn the prison population,

we must fix the wider pieces of the

complex jigsaw. Our prison system is

operating at close to maximum

capacity. This is not sustainable

and it is not a simple case of

longer sentences for more serious

crimes. We have a collective

responsibility to ensure the system

in which these prisoners are treated

as comprehensive in its ability to

provide rehabilitation, only then

will we see the prison population

decline. In conclusion, it is clear

there are multiple things that must

be addressed in order for us to

secure decent and sustainable prison

reforms to ensure the prison

population is manageable and kept at

a safe level. I have only been able

to draw attention to a small number

of concerns and I hope fellow

members will touch on other issues.

Until the prison population is under

control, I fear reform and safety

standards will suffer. Three people

to a room in a Victorian era prison

with limited sanitation, little or

no rehabilitation work, uncertain

futures inside and outside of

prison, this is not where we should

be in a 21st-century justice system.

We have by no means the worst prison

service in the world but we could

and should be doing better and I

look forward to furthering these

aims with my fellow committee

members in due course. Thank you.

I

have three questions for the

minister. Some of the comments we

have heard about the concerns we

have about the quality of the ageing

estate and the living conditions of

prisoners, my first question is,

what is he going to do about it? My

second question relates to the

current status of the Government

closure plans and the plans to

update and replace the ageing

prisons we have, what is he going to

do about it? The third question I

have is about the impact the

uncertainty of closures creates in

terms of what the prisons themselves

are trying to do to update and to

improve their own facilities. The

first question, he will have seen,

as we have, responses from the Chief

Inspector of Prisons and he will

have heard from members who have

spoken today, we see in many prisons

that showers, lavatory facilities,

they are full and dilapidated and

there are no credible or affordable

plans for refurbishment.

The chief inspector of prisons in a

report that he published only a

couple of months ago said that

prisoners are held in conditions

that would fall short of what most

lambs on the public would consider

reasonable or decent. -- most

members of the public would consider

reasonable or decent. My first

question about what the government

is doing to address this is very

relevant. In relation to the second

of my questions about the state of

the government closure plans, the

minister himself said only a couple

of months ago that while his first

priority is to ensure public

protection and provide accommodation

for all the centres by the courts,

the commitment to close old prisons

remains a very viable option that he

wishes to continue with. I would

like to hear some detail about what

is happening with that programme. We

have already seen in the prison

estate transformation programme that

reconfiguring the estate into three

functions to look after reception,

training and resettlement, and those

three are crucial to the better

treatment of prisoners. The ministry

also was given £1.3 billion in 2015

as part of the spending review to

invest over the next five years to

transform the prison estate. I would

like to know what exactly is

happening to that and what progress

is being made and how that is being

dealt with. The point that I would

make in relation to the third of my

questions, which was to do with the

impact and uncertainty of closure on

staff morale, I would echo the

points made by the honourable

member, about the visit to Rochester

prison. I was not able to go on that

visit myself but it is crucial that

the lessons from that visit Ireland.

One of the lessons was that

governors told the committee that

the decision about investing in

maintenance or improving the

facilities had not gone ahead since

the announcement that the prison was

going to close. As we have already

heard, the old 1840s prison

buildings there are described as

deplorable and deteriorating. That

impact on recruitment, which had

been frozen in this prison, and the

way the situation was proving

demoralising to staff. Those are the

most pertinent questions I would

like to ask.

I am really grateful to

my honourable friend for raising

Rochester. He may like to know that

specifically we've found on one wing

some 22 showers had been out of

operation for months. And when we

spoke to people there, the

facilities management contractors do

not see the governors as their

client. They see their client

relationship being with M O J

Commercial and that needs to be got

right because that actually means

the governors get nowhere.

We can

have short interventions and the

honourable member was hoping to get

two minutes at the end. He's eating

into his own two minutes and he will

understand if he doesn't.

I fully

accept the point that the honourable

member has made. It goes back to

what I said about the prison having

given up on trying to invest any

money into refurbishment of the

prison, trying to replace the ageing

facilities there, and I have already

quoted from the chief inspector of

prisons that in many prisons shower

and lavatory facilities are filthy

and dilapidated. So those three

questions that I asked, what is the

government going to do to address

our concerns about the quality of

the ageing estate, what is the

government doing about the current

programme of reform and estate

modernisation, and what impact the

uncertainty over closures is having

on both the prisons themselves and

on the life of the prisoners? I

think they are the most relevant

questions that I would like to ask

today.

Jonathan Edwards.

The English

prison system is in crisis. It is

failing inmates, prison officers and

fundamentally society. As the

heartening motion for this debate

brought forward by the honourable

members makes clear. Building more

prison places will not solve the

problem. The prison population tends

to expand to fill the places

available, often even before they

are built. As the Howard League put

it, trying to deal with only the

supply of prison resources and

places will not work. We now need to

manage demand and the process asks

fundamental questions about who we

sent to prison and why. It is

therefore surprising the UK

Government is adopting the strategy

of building an industrial sized

prison complex in my nation. I am

going to focus my remarks on the UK

decision to outsource the crisis to

Wales rather than to fix it. The

Ministry of Justice opened HMP Brad

Wing earlier this year. It can hold

2100 male prisoners and it will not

be a revelation to many in the House

that piling a few thousand prisoners

into a small corner of rural Wales

is not expected to be conducive to

rehabilitation, whether it is the

left-leaning Howard League or

descent of the social justice,

founded by the member for Chingford

and Woodford Green, they are all in

agreement. These prisons do not

rehabilitate. What is even more

galling is this prison is not built

to meet the demands of the nation in

which it is being built. Bedwin will

have 800 more inmates than spaces in

Wales. The new prison will be built

in Port Talbot and again it is not

being built for our needs. 1600

inmates to be shipped into Port

Talbot. You do not need to have a

medal to work out that adding this

to the 800 existing surplus places

in Bedwin to the 1600 at the

proposed prison would mean 2400

places more than required in Wales.

The truth of the matter is that

Wales is England's affordable penal

colony. Westminster is turning the

old south Wales into a homage of

19th-century New South Wales. These

are not my words. They are the

comments of Francis Crick, CEO of

the Howard League. She went as far

to draw a parallel between the

infamous botany Bay penal colony and

Wales. It is an extreme but fitting

analogy. Plaid Cymru has always been

against the building of these

monstrous prisons in Wales but

currently the plans are going ahead

with the Labour was governed's

blessing and the Labour Welsh

government in Cardiff could stop the

development if they so wished

because it is being built on was

government land. If only for once

they would put the interests and

requirements of Wales first. Wales

does not want or need another super

prison, much as it did not need the

first. Because of the issues in

jurisdiction, Westminster can still

impose prisons on Wales. Scotland

and Northern Ireland have more

generous devolution settlement is.

The existing situation is far from

perfect but we need Welsh solutions

to Welsh problems. Welsh offenders

are being sent over the border to

England, damning indictment of the

current policy as applied to Wales.

The devolution of the prison state

and criminal justice system must be

a priority. Putting thousands of

prisoners on top of each other in

these conditions is not conducive to

rehabilitation or safety, for those

detained or those doing the

detaining. The lines of

modern-day... All of the evidence

shows that smaller and more human

prisons that do not put economies of

scale ahead of outcomes are what the

prison estate need. I want to close

with a plea to the UK and the worst

government. Listen to the 9000

signatories on the petition against

the Port Talbot prison. Listen to

the experts from every inch of the

political spectrum which advise

against these but he must prisons.

Listen to the inmates, the

residents, Wales. We will not

becoming the 's penal colony. I want

to raise with the prisons minister

today three issues that could

promote progress in effective

prisoner form, all of which relate

to improving prisoner contact with

families and which in summary I will

state at the outset. Firstly, the

need to consider the appointment of

a deputy director for families

burying staff and priority given to

drugs and violence of prisons.

Secondly the need to speed up the

long-awaited policy announcement on

the release on temporary licence

revised procedures. Thirdly, whether

Skype and other innovative face to

face digital platforms could be used

to strengthen prisoner' family ties.

The member for Bedfordshire

important up of quality contact with

families for prisoners for their

rehabilitation. His leadership paved

the way towards the excellent Farmer

review. The need to replicate the

good practice which does exist

across the prison estate in

supporting prisoners' family ties

and to redress inconsistencies in

this area was one of the key

messages in the Farmer review

published this year. Its full title

is The Importance Of Strengthening

Family Ties To Prevent Reoffending

And Reduce Intergenerational Crime.

I wanted to thank the Prime Minister

in this place today for the

wholehearted commitment he has made

in implementing every single one of

the total recommendations of the

Farmer review in full. Another

reason why the review has gained

traction in government so

successfully is why senior officials

are so committed to the family's

agenda, either because they have

been governors in prisons and they

have seen first hand what a

difference good family contact

makes. However this important agenda

cannot be dependent on individuals'

conviction that it matters. Civil

servants more on. Paul Paper is

leaving at the end of the year. I

want to pause here to acknowledge

the decades of excellent service he

has given to our prison service. His

stubborn pursuit of reform and

championing prisoners' families, who

are among the most elected and

stigmatise people in this country.

Currently he has his work alongside

his responsibilities as deputy

director of custody for London and

Thames Valley, a large group of

prisons. In other words he has the

families' agenda tagged onto a

demanding existing workload. Does he

agree it is time to give this agenda

the same priority within a

management structure within the

prison system as drugs and violence?

Each of these has got a deputy

director dedicated to it. If family

relationships is to be the golden

thread running through our prisons,

then we need senior staff mandated

to keep this issue salient until it

is embedded on the estate as firmly

as action to combat drugs and

violence. Indeed family involvement

drives improvements in these other

areas. Moving on, may I ask also

that the minister kindly look at

speeding up the development and

announcement of the ROTL policy,

which allows for temporary release

of prisoners where it is safe to do

so to undertake activities to

benefit their resettlement including

rebuilding closer ties with their

family. If men have undertaken

parenting and other family learning

courses for example about how to be

a responsible father, then open

conditions such as ROTL give them

the opportunity to put theory into

practice. There will always be the

exceptional negative incident

reported but evidence shows that

high rate of compliance with ROTL

turns and consequential reduction in

reoffending rates are positive. For

example, an offender could attend a

parent teacher evening as well as

case conferences to discuss their

child protection and care

proceedings. It also helps families

adjust to having the person around

more. Many prisoners begin to feel

less legitimate as a parent, making

it difficult to build rounded

relationships with their child. ROTL

would help boost their confidence as

a parent but indicators suggest that

all forms of ROTL have fallen

significantly since 2013. Governors

have been waiting for guidance on

this for over a year and do need

this now. And finally can I ask the

minister whether Skype or other

face-to-face platforms could be used

to aid prisoner family contact time

enabling visitors to digitally visit

their homes and see their family

members in that context?

Can my first apologise if I am not

able to be here at the wind-ups but

also take the opportunity to commend

the diligence of the Justice Select

Committee for bringing this debate

forward? It is incredibly important

the House has a chance to focus on

this issue of safety and reform.

There are lots of organisations in

the wider community also

campaigning. I would like to draw

the House's attention to the

community trade union, the largest

trade union in the private prison

sector, they have a very strong set

of recommendations and campaigns for

the safer justice sector and I would

to take a look at the work of the

Community Trade Union. That would

add to the issue. I want to talk

about Her Majesty's prison

Nottingham in my constituency of

Nottingham East. In recent times, we

have sadly seem some very difficult

pressure is starting to grow and we

have had five deaths in custody

since the summer, some of which have

been suicides, some of which we have

still not had the coroner's report

from. Still early days to know

whether there is a pattern of events

that have been common throughout

those. But I have been to meet the

Governor and I have spoken with the

very diligent independent monitoring

board, volunteers who go in every

week to check out things like safety

in the prison and effectively I

think the biggest problem is the

cycle of drugs and smuggling which

many honourable members have alluded

to, spiced, how the strokes are

getting into the prison, it really

has to get national attention.

Sometimes they are thrown over

prison walls, but more often than

not, and it is very difficult to be

fully certain, there is a smuggling

process where prisoners themselves

secrete drugs upon their person,

they bring them in to jail. And of

course, you have the inmates who are

finding themselves affected by those

psychoactive substances. But in a

way, it is just as bad that our gang

operations going on in the prison is

putting pressure on some offenders

who go out on licence, halfway

through the sentence, and

incredibly, they are almost driven

to reoffend deliberately to break

their licensed to then go back into

prison in order to smuggle more

drugs back in. An astonishing idea

that in the 21st century, we have

reoffending as a way of making a

living, that there are some

prisoners who are in that particular

cycle. I want to urge the Minister

to think creatively about how to

break that particular problem. Yes,

there is a question of resources.

Although we have had a ridiculous

number of experienced officers taken

out in recent years, I know things

are stabilising now. But the

experienced officer set is really

what we are in need of retaining and

making sure it does not get worse. I

want to encourage the Minister to

think about ways of breaking the

cycle of people reoffending on

licence, perhaps randomising which

prisons re-offenders are returned

to, it could stop this notion that

the prisoner breaks their licence

and knows they will go back into a

particular prison, if we can break

that, I know there are networks

across other prisons which is

difficult to break, but we need some

creative solutions to this. It is

important the key worker programme

that has started in Nottingham is

extended so that officers can get to

know inmates a little bit more

effectively because it is not just

those on vulnerable watch who sadly

we have seen taking their own lives

and that is an important programme

to be continued. Also, on

communication, making sure we

regularise access to telephone calls

the prisoners because there is a

smuggling problem for mobile

telephones too. If there was access

to approved family members and some

of the pressures and strains on

those who are inmates could be

lessened. We need creative

solutions, resources are part of

this, but it is not just about that,

which is why I am grateful we have

had the opportunity for this

important debate for the House to

pay attention to today.

I am very

delighted to follow the honourable

member from Nottingham, mentioning

his own experiences of his local

prison. I am pleased to be part of

this debate and I think there is

general consensus in the Chamber our

prison system is not perfect but I

would like to acknowledge the

Government has an ambitious

programme to reform the situation

benefiting not only offenders but

communities across the country. I

welcome in particular the 2005

prison officers to be appointed and

body cameras for prison officers and

the police. I want to focus my

speech on gardening and the

environment in the prison system. I

make no excuses for that because I

think there is lots of potential

here to be helpful and we know that

imprisoning somebody itself does not

reduce reoffending rates. To do

that, as has been mentioned, we have

to try and give these people skills

to up their employability chances

and help them to reintegrate back

within the community and that is

where environmental and gardening

schemes can really help. I mentioned

before in this place and many

prisons of course are very old, very

little green space. There is

definite data to show that if you

are not in contact with green space

and nature, there is an impact on

your mental health. I want to talk

about a couple of good schemes. The

Eden Project have teamed up with

Dartmoor prison to transform disused

exercise yard a gardening project

within the resettlement unit with

local residents buying vegetables,

flowers and eggs. This kind of

scheme is beginning to crop up in

prisons across the country. When I

was a television reporter, I went to

a prison near Bristol and they had a

fabulous gardening project and they

had state greenhouses and they won

gold medals at Chelsea. Lots of

those projects need to be reinstated

or we need to regenerate some. The

conservation foundation is about to

start a gardening against the odds

project in Wandsworth and the

project will extend across three

exercise yard is currently just

tarmac bringing together prisoners,

staff, the community, leading

horticulturalists and

environmentalists. This can

stimulate mental and physical health

and it teaches skills and

disciplines that can improve

employability and I have recently

met with the institute representing

the landscape industry, £6 billion

industry, they are crying out for

people to go and work for them.

There are opportunities if we can

give people skills in these areas

once they get back into the working

world. Lots of these projects are

not costly, they are cost effective

and highly beneficial, so I hope the

Minister might make reference to

them and I know in a previous

question I asked, the Minister

mentioned they do run a prisoner

gardening competition and I was

invited to be a judge and I hope you

will stick to the offer because I

would like to do that. The Forestry

Commission run... Of course I will

give way.

I would like to confirm

the invitation to my honourable

friend to be a judge in the prison

gardening competition at the

convenience, the invitation is open.

Hoping I will be allowed out by the

whips. I think this is a very

important initiative and once we get

more attention for it, more people

will enter. I thank the Minister for

that. The Forestry Commission run a

very interesting offenders and

nature scheme offering typically

working with volunteers on nature

conservation in woodland sites and

they do different tasks like

building foot paths, creating walks,

establishing ponds, learning about

conversation and the environment --

learning about conservation. And

they address factors contributing to

reoffending. The Phoenix recovery

are a charity working with people in

and out of prison struggling with

drug and alcohol addiction and the

drug problem in our prisons has been

much referred to today. This project

is supported by the national Lottery

and they run a recovery through

nature programme aiming to connect

people using the services of the

charity with nature to assist their

recovery and those who participate

have an incredible 41% higher chance

of recovery than the national

average. There is mileage in this.

Many of the ideas I have referenced

today are mentioned in a pamphlet

many colleagues joined in with

writing with the conservative

environment network calling for a

more holistic approach to

environmental policy across

departments. This government is

doing great work on the environment

now, bringing it into many areas,

but let us add an environment strand

to the prison reform. I do not know

how many members went to see the

Paddington America to film. Madam

Deputy Speaker, perhaps you did? --

Paddington 2. It is fantastic.

Paddington used cooking to improve

the lives of prisoners and I am

saying, let us use gardening. It is

challenging. It is not the answer to

everything but it would be one small

added tool in the box, in the

greenhouse, might I say, that might

help us to address this problem

which ultimately will improve the

lives of so many people and they

deserve it.

Nelson Mandela said, no

one truly knows a nation until one

has been inside its nations. A

nation should not be judged by how

it treats its highest citizens, but

its lowest ones. At 3.94 billion

annual expenditure, prisons take up

the largest share of the Ministry of

Justice's budget, going towards

maintaining the 118 adult prisons

and keeping 86,000 in prison. It

works out as a staggering that the

book as a member of the just select

committee on week ago I visited a

young offenders institute. --

Justice Select Committee. I was

heartened to see the education and

training provided but I was very

concerned to learn that because of

staffing levels, young people were

not getting their 27 hours of

education they are supposed to.

Instead they were receiving half of

that amount. This would seriously

hamper the rehabilitation of these

young men and also increase the

chances of them reoffending. Another

concern I had was the number of

black, Asian and minority near the

young offenders there and I want to

link this to the review from David

Lammy about improving outcomes in

the criminal justice system

published in September of this year.

As stated in the review, black,

Asian and minority ethnic prisoners

make up 3% of the population but

over 12% of the adult prison

population and the proportion of

under 18s in custody has risen from

25% in 2006 1041% in 2016. They are

disproportionately in the criminal

justice system and costing taxpayers

at least 309 million each year. The

review by David Lammy highlighted

three key things for action and

these are strengthening the link

between scrutiny and decision making

on fairness of the system and that

means using the principle of explain

or reform. If there is not an

explanation, and evidence -based

explanation for the disparities,

they should be addressed through

reform. Addressing trust deficit, it

was found more than half of the

British-born BME people believe

criminal justice system

discriminates against particular

groups compared to 35% of British

born white people. Identifying where

responsibilities lie beyond the

criminal justice system, such as

with parenting, that exploitation of

young people and closer working with

communities to hold offenders to

account. The review made 35

recommendations and looked at ways

these relate to prison among other

areas for preventing reoffending.

Touching on some of the

recommendations, one of which was

collecting data, I would like to

know what the Government's plan to

do in relation to collecting and

disclosing data on ethnicity of

prisoners and offenders? Concerns

around issues of basic screening and

resettlement and I am aware of

problems faced by rehabilitation

centres and subcontractors in

receiving data to help them informed

their view about what help a

prisoner may need for resettlement.

I'm firmly of the view more

investment is needed for

resettlement to work in prison. As

honourable members have mentioned

already, there are serious concerns

about the state of some of the older

prisons with living conditions being

poor and inadequate. Honourable

members may have recently read about

the appalling conditions at HMP

Liverpool will stop another concern

is the staff in the prisons with 95

out of 104 HMP PS prisons being

understaffed. There are presently

13% fewer operational prison staff

than in 2010 and we all know full

condiment staff is required to keep

prisoners safe, protected from

violence and reduce drug use in

prisons. One of the reasons that

such a demand for psychoactive drugs

is the fact many prisoners are

locked up for long periods of time.

It is a widely held view more

purposeful activity out of the cells

is a good way to reduce the demand

for drugs. More staffing would help

keep vulnerable prisoners safe. It

is worrying that in 2016 there were

120 suicides in prison, doubled the

number from 2012.

We need to give prison staff safe as

well. In the 12 months prior to

March 2017, there was a 32% increase

in assaults on staff on the previous

12 month period. In conclusion, the

minister has a lot of work to do if

they want to reduce reoffending in

our prisons in the future.

Prison

safety and reform will continue to

be major priorities for the justice

committee until the challenges

facing prisons are stabilised. I

want to focus on the issue of

Governor empowerment and an young

adults in our prisons. The rise in

assaults, self harm, self-inflicted

deaths are all unsurprising with

rising prisoner numbers, over

occupied prisons, understaffing, and

the wave of psychoactive drugs

washing over prisons, which has been

happening over the last couple of

years. But how can the system turned

prisoners' lives around when too

many are locked up the 22 hours a

day and unable to reach education,

treatment or work? And these

challenges are major for prison

governors, but also for ministers,

those in the MOJ, and those in the

prisons and probation service. Back

in the Queen's Speech of 2016,

prisons were plans to be independent

legal entities with the power to

enter into contracts, generate

income and appoint their own boards.

Both the Secretary of State at one

of his ministers more recently has

said that ministers remain committed

to continuing working towards making

prisons places of safety but also of

reforming them. Now the justice

committee on which I have been

sitting since September agrees that

the prison management and provision

of safe and secure prison conditions

that promote rehabilitation are

complex activities that must be well

grounded in evidence. And I would

add what is crucially important is

adequate resources. I remember once

upon a time there were ideas that

governors could be incentivised to

reduce reoffending rates of those

released from their own

establishments. Even now there are

many good examples of positive good

practice taking place in prison and

many of those have been mentioned by

members here today. But overarching

this, there appears to be no joined

up strategy on rehabilitation or

even of reform. When the prison

system appears to be always in

crisis management mode. This is

exactly the time when there needs to

be clear lines of accountability

between the Ministry of Justice,

NPPS and prison members. To members

of the justice department, these

lines seem to be fuzzy at best. What

is the current status of devolution

to governors? What the board

governors been given to prevent the

power agenda? Where is the review of

reformed prisons? And overarching

this, where are the leaders and who

gets upset when there are failures?

And I want to move on to young

adults in the criminal justice

system and I draw the attention of

the House to the people who

initiated the transition to adult

that alliance. Young adults aged 18

to 25 are distinct group. Only 10%

of the general population but

accounting for 17% of those sent to

prison every year. Admittedly a drop

from a quarter but still too many at

a key stage in their lives, their

vulnerable lives. We know that when

policymakers, sentences and

practitioners take into account

development or majority and the

particular needs of young adults,

research shows they are more likely

to grow out of crime. These results

were reflected in a key

recommendation of the justice

committee in its inquiry of young

adults and 2016. Add a week ago, the

MOJ released a study that supports

transition to adulthood's

long-standing campaign to take

account of young adults' maturity in

our service design and delivery.

Given the research findings, what

assurance can the government gave

that it would provided a distinct

regime for young adult offenders as

proposed by the alliance and the

justice committee? And in

conclusion, we all have to ask

ourselves what our prisons for? I

would hope that instead of just

warehousing prisoners as too often

seems to be the case, the Secretary

of State for Justice and the prisons

minister will themselves take

responsibility for ensuring our

prisons are humane, safe, turn lives

around and reduce reoffending.

I

hope given the short time that I

will restrict my comments to

conditions at my local prison,

Wormwood Scrubs, especially as this

debate coincides with the

publication of the independent

monitoring report last week. Let me

start by paying tribute to the

chairman of the board. And his

members and his predecessor. They

have done an excellent job and so do

the majority of staff at the prison

who show dedication and

professionalism. I was initially

heartened by this press release

which said there would be positive

changes in some areas such as a

deduction of more CCTV and a new

system for prisoners to access their

property. It is right that in July

this year Wormwood Scrubs went from

grade one, the worst grade, and I am

thankful only a handful of prisons

are at that level at any one time,

to great two, but I am afraid that

is probably where the good news

stops. We have got to be very frank

about this. There is nothing new

about problems that Wormwood Scrubs.

Many years ago there were problems

of violence against prisoners and

there had been poor management in

the past. The report in April last

year talked about them being rat

infested and overcrowded, with some

prisoners being too frightened to

leave their cells. The difficulty is

that the problems now very

specifically around underfunding and

quality services and low numbers of

staff, despite what we are told by

the government is increasing staff,

they have now cut it back

dramatically under the coalition

government. There were 57 members of

staff out and only 21 in last year.

Let me give a flavour of what I am

talking about. Complaints made by

prisoners are sometimes handled

inappropriately or passed to the

staff member who was the subject of

the complaint. Lack of maintenance

means that prisoners are frequently

subjected to conditions that are

indecent, not suitable for them to

live in. Health. Unacceptable delays

in accessing medical treatment. Care

UK, not able to provide staff for

triage and screening processes.

Looking at the key issue of safety,

40 to 50 violent incidents in a

typical month, 25% of which are

gang-related, the second highest

number of prisoners moved by Tornado

teams, four deaths in custody. There

is a terrible contract are

culturally and responsible for

maintenance who are always

criticised. Beds import conditions,

-- beds in poor conditions, no

working urinal is in parts of the

prison, medieval conditions that

people are living in. If I look at

the education services, back in

June, 24% attendance rate at

classes, the library closed for

several weeks because the contract

could not fix something there. The

art is based in the Governor's

Althouse outside the prison but

there is no art teaching going on

inside the prison. These are

terrible condition. Let me draw your

attention to other aspects that have

given me terrible concern. It has

the worst record in London for

accessing legal help. What that

actually means in practice when

solicitors are trying to see

clients, and I'm quoting all the

time from the report here, prisoners

are effectively being denied access

to legal advice. I would ask the

minister to particular look at that.

That is not acceptable in any of our

prisons where prisoners are going to

court. This is a 45% remand prison

in that way. The last point I want

to make is in relation to

rehabilitation. I am afraid... To

quote on this, the private community

rehabilitation company, NTC Novo,

which I remember was not a good

appointment, does not sufficiently

engage with prisoners before they

are released and far too many are

released without any accommodation

to go to. Is it any wonder that

reoffending rates are what they are

when this is the background? It is

not an accident that we are talking

about companies like Care UK, C and

Carillion. We were told there would

be a prisons revolution but the

Justice Secretary did not stay

around long enough. It is hard for

him to be the underdog that I

champion but he was following the

member for Epsom and Ewell, which is

a tip, follow that member into a

job! What is this minister going to

do to address the appalling

conditions taking place every day in

our prisons?

I want to concentrate

on just one aspect of the prison

system and that is the workforce.

Prison officers are working with

people with complex mental health

issues, people that have experienced

trauma throughout their lives, and

working day in and day out with

people who might assault them,

keeping watch over people who want