19/01/2018 House of Commons


19/01/2018

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LineFromTo

Order, order. Point of order, Lynne

Brown.

May I first of all wish you a

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very happy birthday, and may I also

beg to move that the House to sit in

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private.

The question is that the

House sit in private. As many as are

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of the opinion, say, "aye". To the

contrary, "no". I think the noes

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habit. Order. The clerk will proceed

to read the orders of the day.

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Holmes Fitness for Human Habitation

and Liability for Housing Standards

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Bill, second reading.

Ms Karen Buck.

Thank you Mr Speaker, and may I to

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extend my congratulations for your

birthday today, it is a pleasure to

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see you in the chat. I beg to move

that the Holmes Fitness for Human

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Habitation and Liability for Housing

Standards Bill be read a second

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time. Everyone deserves to live in a

safe, warm and comfortable home, get

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despite the undeniable progress over

many decades, many still don't and

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often the most vulnerable. Currently

and extraordinarily, landlords have

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no obligation to their tenants to

put or keep the property in a

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condition fit for habitation. There

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is an obligation on the landlord to

repair the structure of the property

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and keep in repair features such as

heating, gas, water and electricity

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but that only applies when something

is broken or damaged. It does not

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cover issues like fire safety,

inadequate heating or poor

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ventilation causing condensation and

mould growth. There are a range of

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fitness issues which affect the

safety and well-being of tenants and

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about which tenants can do nothing.

We must await the result of the

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inquiry into the horror of Grenfell

Tower before reaching any

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conclusions but what we do know is

residents were raising fire safety

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concerns in respect of the cladding

long before the fire. This cladding

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was, as far as we know, in good

repair but may have been unfit and

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hazardous, something certainly was,

yet the residents

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have no legal wood available to

pursue their concerns. This bill

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will modernise the housing fitness

standard and extended to cover

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almost all tenancies, private

housing association and counsel. It

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will allow tenants to take action on

their own behalf in the same way and

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on the basis of the same standard as

local authorities can currently and

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give a remedy that so many lack.

Members of Parliament are all too

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familiar with bad housing. Most of

us at one time or another find

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ourselves responding to constituents

living in the most appalling

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conditions that their landlord,

public or private, cannot or will

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not Act to resolve. As an inner

London MPs whose constituency

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includes areas notorious for poor

housing dating back to the year of

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slum landlords this issue has always

been very dear to my heart. When the

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cases are referred to first come to

me, my first port of call is often

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the environmental health department

and while my council is of a

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different political persuasion to me

and we fight on most issues, I can

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say the environmental health rise to

the occasion again and again and I

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must have referred thousands of

cases to them and they Act with

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rigour and professionalism yet we

know that action is not sufficient.

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I have seen a couple with small

children living in two rooms in what

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was effectively the attic of a

property in North Paddington. They

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lived and slept in one room. In the

other, the tiny kitchen, toilet and

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shower were were just cubicles built

into the same space. I have seen a

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family who had to close two

bedrooms, the only bedrooms, because

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of the cold and damp and who all sat

in the living room because they were

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unable to use the entire property. I

met a flat so damp that when I

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visited her even I was struggling to

breathe. I met a pensioner only two

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weeks ago who was taken into

hospital with hypothermia twice

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because of the cold in a flat where

the heat leaks through badly

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designed windows and who also

incidentally fell and hurt her hip

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on steps that had turned into a

virtual river as water poured

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through a hole in the roof. A good

example of how fitness and disrepair

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are distinct and different elements

of unfitness comes on an estate in

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my constituency, a lovely and

popular S8 in Bayswater. Residents

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had long-standing complaints about

extreme cold, damp and condensation

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to the point of environmental health

set up a dedicated project with the

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goal of protecting the health of

residents. In 2011 their report

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found a range of deficiencies in the

flats contributing to the help as

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that of excess cold. Frequently

associated with cold conditions

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within the flat, the report says,

was another hazard, that of damp and

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mould growth caused by condensation

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moisture forming on cold internal

surfaces within the flats including

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the window frames and glazing. In

some cases this growth was chronic

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and severe. And despite the

environmental health surveys of

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flats, the residents impeded the

requested something to be done,

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asking for the windows to be

replaced as long ago as 2006. So why

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were these flats are unfit and how

does it distinguish itself from

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disrepair? Built in the 1950s when

building construction standards were

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poorer than today, the insulation

standards on the flats were and

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remain very poor. The end walls of

the flats were solid reinforced

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concrete as would-be floors, groups,

external stairways, lift shaft,

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walkways and balconies and possibly

some internal walls the cavity

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walling was unfilled and

uninsulated. Consequently there was

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constant heat loss throughout the

building, instances of cold bridging

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within the flats on the estate

caused by cold elements transforming

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heat energy and losing it

externally, a particular cause of

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condensation, dampness and mould

growth in those flats. Those

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residents have been waiting for 12

years and a major state programme

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that has been under way for some

years still has to run until 2020 do

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and those residents have no legal

redress to deal with their concerns.

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-- run until 2022. In case the

references to heat loss and cold

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bridging are a little technical,

here is one example of a resident

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who wrote to me on that estate to

say, I have been suffering from the

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cold, we are always sick with the

flu and colds, I have my heating on

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24 hours a day with another electric

heater and I am always ill, so is my

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son. My heating bill for this month

alone was £400. My son and I have

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asthma, arthritis, fibromyalgia,

diabetes, a disease in my hand, I

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suffer panic attacks and anxiety, I

am suicidal and have to go to Saint

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Mary 's Hospital and see a

psychiatrist who says I must move to

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improve my health conditions.

Please, please help me. I thank my

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honourable friend for giving way and

for bringing this Private Members

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Bell. We all know that morally this

is an issue we need to take up but

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would she be surprised to know that

financially it is an issue we need

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to take up?

I received a letter this

month from the Department of Health

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that says that the conditions of

poor quality housing costs the NHS,

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as a conservative estimate, an

estimated £1.4 billion a year.

She

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is a mind reader, I was coming on to

that very point! Just absolutely

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reinforcing that there is plentiful

evidence to confirm that bad housing

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is a drain on the National Health

Service and if we were able to Act

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more effectively to tackle the

causes as in so many other areas it

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would be beneficial to the NHS as

well as to housing.

May I

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congratulate the honourable lady on

bringing forward this bill and

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assure her of our support. She has

given some very disturbing cases,

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many of which we will have heard

through our own constituency

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casework, but does she accept in the

private sector landlords play a

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valuable role within the housing

market and the vast majority of them

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do understand that in addition to

the right to receive the rent, they

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do have obligations towards the

tenants?

I absolutely do, I thank

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the honourable gentleman for his

intervention and I will make that

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point, but the vast majority of

landlords Act responsibly in respect

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of their tenants and have an

interest in making sure the rogue

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minority do not get away with

irresponsible behaviour. I was also

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pleased to take part in the

engagement process this week and on

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the one hand I was pleased to hear

the response to our little project

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on housing standards had the best

response that has been had so far in

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this important experiment, and that

is obviously pleasing in one way,

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but further serves to confirm the

extent of the problem. We were told

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that 57,000 people viewed the

Facebook page on which we were

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presenting our questions about

attitudes to housing fitness and

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some of the case studies that came

on as a response to that were truly,

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truly horrifying, and came from all

over the country and reflected the

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scale of the problem. Now, we know

anecdotally and from members of

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Parliament, councillors and many

others in casework, just how serious

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is the problem of substandard and

unfit housing, and we know of course

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statistically from the English

Housing Survey that there are three

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quarters of a million private rented

properties, equivalent to around one

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in six of the sector, that are

unfit, and around a quarter of a

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million social rented homes that

have a category one hazard under the

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Housing health and safety rating

system whether it be damp,

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infestation, excess cold or a number

of other risks. This means that some

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3 million people including many

children have their health and

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safety compromised every day by

substandard housing. And we also

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know that local council led

endorsement is simply insufficient

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to the task. I have already

mentioned the very positive

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relationship I have with my own

local authority although they still

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have constraints particularly in

respect of their own housing stock,

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but taken across the board we know

that local authorities are not

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enforcing more than a tiny

proportion of the substandard

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properties. My own most recent

Freedom of Information research

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prepared into a report by Stephen

Battersby indicates that enforcement

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action is only taken at a level

equivalent to 1% of all those

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properties, we understand from the

English Housing Survey, to be unfit.

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And research carried out by Shelter

a year or so ago found enforcement

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action had fallen by 40% in recent

years. This is importantly not to

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criticise local authorities, but the

fact is that the capacity is simply

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not there, and it is also true that

performance varies hugely between

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councils and there is a reliance in

some areas on informal action which,

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whilst it has its place and can help

to resolve some problems, makes it

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very, very hard to assess the

overall effectiveness of local

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authorities.

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Tenants need the ability to

challenge landlords in court. Will

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she agree we also need to look at

reintroducing early legal advice so

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problems can be resolved quicker?

As the chair of the all-party group

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on legal aid, she will not be

surprised to hear I agree and there

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are many issues relating to advice

and other aspects of housing need

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that still need to be resolved.

All of us owe our gratitude to our

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honourable friend and for her

perseverance.

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Legal aid is already severely

restricted for disrepair. Do they

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not need to find the funds to allow

tenants to enforce this?

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We would expect tenants whose

conditions meet the fitness issue

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will be able to seek legal aid. I

will make separate representations

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about legal aid, it is an issue many

feel strongly about.

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I am grateful. Will she pay tribute

to the Citizens' Advice Bureau who

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in my constituency have assisted 144

families in relation to housing

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repairs, and Doshi agreed many

tenants can get legal expenses

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through household insurance -- Does

she agree.

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I joined her in paying tribute to

Citizens' Advice Bureau is who have

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supported this Bill and have written

a briefing about that. There is a

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real concern about advice services

that we have to discuss and make

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representations on. On insurance,

one concern which underpins my

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motivation is it is often the

poorest and most vulnerable, with

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the highest likelihood to have

disabilities and sickness, trapped

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in the worst housing, and very few

have adequate insurance. Again a

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much larger problem we have to

resolve. There may be different

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remedies available to some people.

In truth, the minority concentrated

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in bad housing often don't have

those remedies.

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I am grateful. I strongly support

this Bill.

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The important point about

enforcement, this House is good at

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passing revelations but often they

are not enforced properly for the

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vulnerable. I believe enforcement

agencies need support.

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On the point of retaliatory

evictions when local authorities

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take action. In my expense, when

taking action, they don't then help

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the tenant to make sure the landlord

hasn't behaved badly -- Experience.

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I am clear here are a number of

issues supporting tenants that are

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out the scope of this Bill. I will

continue to make representations.

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That issue very much one of those.

Local authorities are increasingly

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cash strapped which is why the

departments aren't able to enforce.

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Ideally, the authorities could find

liaison and advice offices. I have

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seen some good examples including in

Westminster. I am happy to

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acknowledge when the work is good. I

am in agreement it is inadequate,

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patchy, and that is why we need to

make sure individual tenants are

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able to exercise a direct remedy in

law when the other services are not

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up to the job.

I congratulate her on the Bill. On

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the role of local authorities, does

she welcomed the recent decision to

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reauthorise new council selective

licence scheme. A small minority of

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vandals are a problem, does she

believe authorities should have

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those powers?

I do. This is out of the scope of

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this particular bill macro. This

Bill promotes one tall, an important

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one, but there are many, some of

which are coming in and being

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introduce. I congratulate you on the

active work from the council.

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Is it a key of this Bill, the social

tenants have no effective means of

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redress over poor conditions as

local authorities can't enforce the

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rating system against themselves.

This would give them a tool to

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provide them, compel the authorities

to carry out repairs?

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That is one of the purposes of the

Bill, social tenants do not have

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that same right that a private

tenant or housing association tenant

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can, to go to the authority. This

Bill will extend the right to seek

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remedy to them.

As we know, the law is generally

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outdated and restricted in this

area. There is currently no

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obligation to ensure the property is

fit as opposed to the obligation

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over disrepair. This did not used to

be the case. This was set in law

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that has ceased to have effect as

the law has developed. The concept

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of housing fitness stems back to

Victorian era, and the 1885 act.

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Lord Salisbury made the case the

shocking condition of housing was

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injurious to health and morals, and

was attacked for propagating state

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socialism. The royal commission

established and proposed a simple

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power for the recovery of damages

against owners or holders of

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property by those who have suffered

injury or loss by clear neglect or

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default insanitary matters. Remedy

was granted to tenants subject to a

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relatively generous rent limit. As

laws changed, the rent limit ceased

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to be updated and the ability for

tenants to find remedy lapsed. The

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impact led to a 1996 report by the

Law Commission. It criticised the

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fact the right of the civil remedy

for tenants in cases of unfitness

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had withered as the rent limits had

remained unchanged. It concluded

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removing the rent limit would be the

preferred way. Court of Appeal

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judgments supported this. Closing

the gap, a joint report last year,

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concluded the law relating to health

and safety in homes is piecemeal,

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outdated, complex, and patchily

enforced, making obscure

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distinctions.

On that point, the many tenants in

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temporary accommodation with private

landlords placed there by local

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authorities, does she see this as a

dilemma with the difficulty in

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remedy?

My experience is temporary condition

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can have the worst conditions. And

for those tenants placed away from

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their local authority, tenants can

have problems seeking remedy. What

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does the Bill do? The old

obligations on the nose to ensure a

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property is fit and not just in the

pair become obsolete. The Bill

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revise the fitness requirements and

updating them by definition to

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hazards. A list of 29 categories is

set out in the rating system. It

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ensures unfitness is covered as well

as disrepair, structural and design

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faults where they include risk to

serious harm. This means the tenant

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can take action against the landlord

to make them put right these

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problems that make the property and

fit and can seek compensation. The

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Bill makes clear the landlord would

not be liable for issues arising

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from the behaviour of the tenant.

Can I welcome this important

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legislation and her tenacious work.

When I was a private renter I was

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offered houses with electric cookers

hanging off the walls, dog mess on

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the carpet. Can I welcome what she

is saying, the excellent balance

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within the new rights of the tenants

and the sensible safeguards for

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landlords.

Thank you.

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Finally, can I acknowledge those

people who have got us to where we

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are. There has been a breadth of

support for which I am grateful.

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Shelter has campaigned strongly. The

chartered Institute of environmental

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health has lent expertise, the

National Housing Federation has

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given excellent briefings. And the

Law Society and House Of Commons

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amongst others. The Bill is backed

by the residential landlords

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Association, the National landlords

Association and Association of

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residential lettings agents. The

chairman summed up for all three

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when he wrote this, the Bill seeks

to achieve what all good landlords

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want, better enforcement against the

crooks. In -- Stephen Battersby has

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diligently prepared reports into

enforcement and fitness. Thanks to

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colleagues who have given up

precious time to be here. I am

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thrilled to have Government support

and hope we can continue in this

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positive spirit to make good

progress. I give thanks to the

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officials who have been

exceptionally helpful. I want to

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place on record my appreciation for

Justin Bates and the housing boys

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who took the recommendations and

drafted this Bill and supported me

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over the past Nama -- Years. I owe

them a debt of gratitude. There is a

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great deal more to be done to turn

the tide on in security,

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affordability, homelessness and

housing needs and none of us.

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Pressing on other fronts. Today we

have a chance to progress this

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vegetation to give tenants more

powers to hold landlords to account.

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I commend this Bill to the House.

The question is the Bill now be read

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a second time.

I would like to congratulate the

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honourable lady for bringing forward

this important bill and securing

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Government support. It is an

excellent example of cross-party

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working. I want to see this Bill

deliver on its object is to ensure

0:24:530:24:57

everyone can live in a decent home.

I am the chair of the committee for

0:24:570:25:05

new towns and we have a private

rental sector where homes have long

0:25:050:25:12

been neglected. We see decay in

states built in a hurry where both

0:25:120:25:19

design and materials were not able

to stand the test of time. They are

0:25:190:25:24

now passed their useful life.

Renewal and renovation is

0:25:240:25:30

challenging. Housing estates in many

new towns are often constructed to

0:25:300:25:35

the viburnum design, innovative and

experimental, where cars were

0:25:350:25:41

separated from housing, the fund was

accessible only by a footpath which

0:25:410:25:45

meant that yard facing each other on

to vehicle access alleyways. This

0:25:450:25:51

layout has designed in crime and

anti-social behaviour, with

0:25:510:25:58

confusing layouts. We have wooden

construction materials Botting, flat

0:25:580:26:04

rues prone to begin, empty

properties and the worst of rogue

0:26:040:26:09

landlords -- Rotting. This has

become a nightmare the sun. These

0:26:090:26:16

ex-local authority homes are private

rental owned by landlords hard to

0:26:160:26:25

trace. There are many good landlords

could take good care of their

0:26:250:26:29

property and long-term owner

occupied as who take pride. The

0:26:290:26:35

simple fact remains some tenants

living in conditions totally

0:26:350:26:39

unacceptable.

0:26:390:26:40

These properties are a catalyst for

a spiral of decline on these estate

0:26:450:26:49

and cause untold misery not just to

the tenants but the owner occupiers

0:26:490:26:53

living alongside them. Tenants are

in the substandard properties

0:26:530:26:56

because they have been unable to

secure housing association

0:26:560:27:00

properties. Our housing association

properties in Telford are very well

0:27:000:27:05

maintained by our innovative and

aspiration of housing Association,

0:27:050:27:08

the Wrekin Housing trust, but these

properties are hard to come by, nor

0:27:080:27:12

are the tenants able to secure and

other rental property of an adequate

0:27:120:27:16

standard and the

0:27:160:27:26

reason have complex vulnerabilities.

They may have a history of

0:27:280:27:30

addictions, debt, addiction or

mental health problems. They are at

0:27:300:27:32

the mercy of rogue landlords because

of the landlords are not willing to

0:27:320:27:34

give them a tenancy. Rogue landlords

charge the full amount of housing

0:27:340:27:37

benefit and charged nothing but a

rundown, neglected property in the

0:27:370:27:39

town, just because they can. As much

as I welcome the bill, I sound a

0:27:390:27:42

note of caution that tenants are

affected by the worst conditions in

0:27:420:27:45

the private rental sector will not

be tenants likely to be able to

0:27:450:27:50

complain effectively, never mind

take enforcement action against

0:27:500:27:53

their landlord. We need to recognise

that there is an important role to

0:27:530:27:57

play here for local authorities and

it is not good enough for local

0:27:570:28:00

authorities to say, this is a

commercial relationship between

0:28:000:28:04

tenant and landlord, nothing to do

with us. These tenants are our most

0:28:040:28:09

vulnerable residents, they are being

exploited and we have obligations to

0:28:090:28:13

them to help enforce the powders

that this new bill will give them

0:28:130:28:17

and to use the existing powers that

local authorities already have. I

0:28:170:28:21

will give way.

My honourable friend

is making a proper point, does she

0:28:210:28:28

agree with me echoing the points

made already, that if these

0:28:280:28:31

excellent new measures are not to be

a dead letter, we have to ensure

0:28:310:28:36

some of our most vulnerable

constituents have the tools they

0:28:360:28:39

need through the legal process

through early advice and assistance

0:28:390:28:41

to prosecute the rights they would

be given under the legislation?

He

0:28:410:28:47

is absolutely right in making that

point, and we must help these most

0:28:470:28:51

vulnerable tenants to be empowered

because legislation without

0:28:510:28:55

assistance to exercise it is not

going to remedy the situation.

Just

0:28:550:29:04

as I intervened on the honourable

lady for Westminster North, can I

0:29:040:29:07

ask her whether she agrees that we

need to ensure local authorities are

0:29:070:29:10

enforcing these rules and others to

protect our most vulnerable

0:29:100:29:15

citizens, and would she agree with

me that the Government needs to

0:29:150:29:18

monitor local authorities and

actually compared them to see which

0:29:180:29:22

local authorities are going after

rogue landlords and name and shame

0:29:220:29:25

those that are not?

The honourable

gentleman is right and there is much

0:29:250:29:30

more that can be done to persuade,

enforce, encourage local authorities

0:29:300:29:34

to play their part, and they have a

really important part to play and do

0:29:340:29:39

already have existing powers to

bring about a remedy.

Would she

0:29:390:29:44

agree with me then, it is really

important that the department and

0:29:440:29:49

the Secretary of State approves in a

timely manner compulsory licensing

0:29:490:29:53

schemes that a number of Labour

councils in London and my council in

0:29:530:29:58

Brighton and Hove have put request

in for the Secretary of State to

0:29:580:30:01

approve that will give them those

enforcement powers?

I thank him for

0:30:010:30:06

his intervention, I'm fact I do not

agree on that point and I will come

0:30:060:30:10

it shortly to explain why I do not.

The existing powers local

0:30:100:30:15

authorities already have include

funding to identify and prosecute

0:30:150:30:18

rogue landlords, and they need to

step up to the mark to use those

0:30:180:30:21

powers and prosecute where a

0:30:210:30:32

property is unsafe or substandard.

The evidence is that they do not

0:30:470:30:50

make enough use of the powers that

they have. To come onto the

0:30:500:30:52

honourable gentleman's point, in my

area selective licensing has been

0:30:520:30:54

proposed as a solution to the

problems but penalises all landlord

0:30:540:30:57

on an estate, including good,

responsible landlords, and hit them

0:30:570:30:59

with an extra levy to prove they are

fit and proper people and fails to

0:30:590:31:02

distinguish between those that make

their money letting substandard

0:31:020:31:04

properties to the most vulnerable to

whom no one else will let. I am

0:31:040:31:06

pleased by this Government's strong

record of action on improving the

0:31:060:31:08

experience of tenants and the action

already taken on substandard private

0:31:080:31:11

rentals. With local authorities

having the powers to impose civil

0:31:110:31:13

penalties up to £30,000 and the

introduction of red repayment

0:31:130:31:15

orders, and there are more powers to

come into effect...

Yes, I should

0:31:150:31:18

like to give way. I and those that

make their money letting substandard

0:31:180:31:22

properties to the most vulnerable to

whom no one else will let. I am

0:31:220:31:24

pleased by this Government's strong

record of action on improving the

0:31:240:31:27

experience of tenants and the action

already taken on substandard private

0:31:270:31:29

rentals. With local authorities

having the powers to impose civil

0:31:290:31:31

penalties up to £30,000 and the

introduction of red repayment

0:31:310:31:33

orders, and there are more powers to

come into effect... Yes, I should

0:31:330:31:35

like to give way. The right

honourable lady giving I understand

0:31:350:31:38

the point you as is so often case,

the powders may exist but the first

0:31:380:31:41

things cut from local authority

budgets are those that actually

0:31:410:31:43

enforce the powers that they have

and this is a very good example.

I

0:31:430:31:45

thank the honourable gentleman for

his remarks, he is right that powers

0:31:450:31:48

are not being enforced and there is

a reason why and we need to do more

0:31:480:31:51

to make sure local authorities do

enforce...

I thank the honourable

0:31:510:31:55

lady for giving way. In terms of

more resources to enforce

0:31:550:31:59

legislation, would she welcomed the

fact that Torbay Council has used

0:31:590:32:02

the powers the Government has given

to levy fines of up to £30,000 to

0:32:020:32:08

increase its housing enforcement

team using literary money from those

0:32:080:32:11

who abuse their tenants?

I am

delighted to here poor Bay is using

0:32:110:32:15

these powers and I would encourage

Telford and Wrekin, Mike local

0:32:150:32:20

authority, to follow their example.

The honourable lady is being very

0:32:200:32:24

generous, thank you. Can I gently

said the reason that the council has

0:32:240:32:28

a licensing scheme is because then

it can bring in the money through

0:32:280:32:32

that scheme to enable it to do the

enforcement it needs to do. I think

0:32:320:32:37

all tenants, as we have heard, all

landlords, as we have heard in this

0:32:370:32:43

chamber today, would benefit from

such a scheme because it would mean

0:32:430:32:46

there are proper standards they all

adhere to which is only good for the

0:32:460:32:49

whole sector.

The honourable lady is

right that the objective of

0:32:490:32:56

selective licensing is to bring in

more funding but there is a raft of

0:32:560:33:00

bureaucracy surrounding it and also

some landlords will pass it on to

0:33:000:33:03

tenants. But I want to move on with

the bill that is in front of us

0:33:030:33:07

today. I just want to make one more

point and perhaps the honourable

0:33:070:33:12

gentleman will come back... The

honourable lady has had her

0:33:120:33:16

intervention. More powers are to

come into effect in April 2018

0:33:160:33:22

introducing banning orders and a

database of rogue landlords to

0:33:220:33:25

support local authorities in

tackling the problem. There are

0:33:250:33:28

powers to remove the worst offenders

and I urge all local authorities to

0:33:280:33:32

do so because as much as I work on

this bill empowering tenants, I am

0:33:320:33:37

concerned tenants in the most

substandard properties who do not

0:33:370:33:39

complain currently the many

0:33:390:33:51

different reasons will not be able

to take legal action. The needs and

0:34:020:34:05

concerns of tenants are the

responsibility of local authorities,

0:34:050:34:06

they are their residence and they

must not wash their hands of tenants

0:34:060:34:09

living in these conditions in these

properties. I congratulate the

0:34:090:34:11

honourable lady the Member for

Westminster North by highlighting

0:34:110:34:13

this very important problem and

thank her for drawing t he attention

0:34:130:34:15

of the conditions many people are

living get in my constituency, in

0:34:150:34:18

other towns and across the country

today. She has spoken up for people

0:34:180:34:20

who cannot speak for themselves and

for that she is to be congratulated.

0:34:200:34:23

Order, has the honourable lady

completed her speech? We are

0:34:230:34:25

immensely grateful to the honourable

lady, I thank her very much for

0:34:250:34:27

that. If the honourable gentleman is

ready, let's hear from the fella,

0:34:270:34:32

Clive Betts.

I rise to support this

bill and many congratulations to my

0:34:320:34:39

honourable friend who has moved the

bill this morning, I know she has a

0:34:390:34:45

long-term interest in housing and

housing policy and legislation. What

0:34:450:34:49

also came out this morning and

almost certainly has been true of

0:34:490:34:53

many years for those who have known

her is her passionate commitment to

0:34:530:34:59

housing as it relates to individual

tenants and their struggle to get

0:34:590:35:03

decent housing conditions and that

is really what has driven her this

0:35:030:35:06

morning to bring this legislation

forward, her experience in her own

0:35:060:35:10

constituency which she has spelt out

of hours this morning and those

0:35:100:35:13

awful circumstances in which people

have to live, and trying to help

0:35:130:35:16

them through this legislation. There

are three reasons why I have a

0:35:160:35:21

particular interest in this this

morning and want to see this

0:35:210:35:25

legislation pass. The first is if

you go to most members of the public

0:35:250:35:28

and say, should a landlord be able

to let a property to a tenant which

0:35:280:35:32

is unfit for them to live in? They

say, of course they shouldn't! The

0:35:320:35:36

law prevents it, doesn't it? Most

people would assume the law already

0:35:360:35:41

does what this bill this morning is

attempting to do! They would assume

0:35:410:35:46

Parliament has already taken steps

to ensure that any house that is

0:35:460:35:52

left is fit for the person who has

it to live in. The fact that it

0:35:520:35:56

isn't is really a condemnation of

all of us that we have allowed this

0:35:560:35:58

situation to exist for far too long.

So to put that basic problem right,

0:35:580:36:02

I think, is something most of the

public would say, of course you

0:36:020:36:06

should do that, of course everyone

in the House this morning should be

0:36:060:36:08

here to support this basic measure.

I think it is important that the

0:36:080:36:13

House today understands that our

predecessors have tried to act on

0:36:130:36:17

this, this bill, very rightly, links

back to the 1985 Housing act, and I

0:36:170:36:22

served on the housing bill committee

in 2003-4 with the honourable lady

0:36:220:36:29

the Member for Westminster North

when we reformed some of the laws

0:36:290:36:33

and brought in the Housing health

and safety rating system which has

0:36:330:36:37

proved rather complicated, and the

experience of that attempt to

0:36:370:36:41

regulate rogue landlords, going back

through the laws of the past, which

0:36:410:36:44

the honourable lady is quite rightly

bring it forward to the House, so

0:36:440:36:47

there is a history here and we need

to understand that.

There is a

0:36:470:36:51

history, but the history is we have

not got it right, that is what we

0:36:510:36:55

have tried to do this morning and I

take your point about the housing

0:36:550:37:00

health and safety rating system, I

will say a few words on that before

0:37:000:37:04

I conclude, so there have been

various efforts but in the end we

0:37:040:37:06

are still in a position where houses

can be let to tenants which are not

0:37:060:37:11

fit for them to live in and that is

what this, fundamentally, is putting

0:37:110:37:15

right, in some ways going back to

the 1985 legislation which

0:37:150:37:18

unfortunately has been overtaken by

information where the rental figures

0:37:180:37:23

in there are now so far out of date

that effectively legislation cannot

0:37:230:37:27

be used at all so it is turning the

clock back to a previous situation

0:37:270:37:32

and doing so in a very appropriate

way. Secondly, it is nevertheless,

0:37:320:37:38

in terms of the 1985 legislation,

updating the fitness standards

0:37:380:37:42

because it is taking the standards

from that legislation but then

0:37:420:37:45

adding to them, as I understand it,

the fitness standards from the 2004

0:37:450:37:50

legislation and making a more

comprehensive definition of what

0:37:500:37:53

fitness should be, bringing the two

together in a more comprehensive

0:37:530:37:57

way. So it is turning the clock back

to 1985 but then modernising and

0:37:570:38:01

updating it, incorporating the 2004

standard as well, making a more

0:38:010:38:08

comprehensive definition of fitness

to make sure homes are truly fit for

0:38:080:38:11

people to live in. The third point

is that of course then by giving the

0:38:110:38:16

powers to the tenant as part of

their contract with the landlord, it

0:38:160:38:21

means that tenants in local

authority housing have the same

0:38:210:38:24

rights of power as those in the

private sector or with a housing

0:38:240:38:27

association. It means any tenant in

any rental property have these

0:38:270:38:31

rights to enforce against their

landlord to ensure that home is

0:38:310:38:35

brought up to a fitness level. It

does the three things, brings the

0:38:350:38:42

fitness, any home should be fit for

the tenant living, updates the

0:38:420:38:45

fitness standards, then applies the

legislation to local authority

0:38:450:38:48

housing as well as other forms of

rented housing. For those three

0:38:480:38:53

reasons I think the bill should be

supported. Two other things, the

0:38:530:38:59

honourable member made reference to

the housing health and safety rating

0:38:590:39:05

system. When the select committee

looked at issues in the private

0:39:050:39:08

rental sector in 2013, we called for

a review and update, the guidance on

0:39:080:39:14

that system has not been changed I

think since 2006 and is now rather

0:39:140:39:19

out of date. There are questions

whether the system is understood by

0:39:190:39:24

many people. It is complicated, it

is difficult to understand, most

0:39:240:39:29

professionals may understand it but

I think the fact there is not an

0:39:290:39:34

absolute definition in there of what

is fit and what isn't is a problem.

0:39:340:39:40

Many landlords don't understand it

and if landlords don't understand

0:39:400:39:43

it, the chances of tenants

understanding it are very small

0:39:430:39:46

indeed so another look at that about

whether you should have some basic

0:39:460:39:49

standards as opposed to simply a

risk-based system is something we

0:39:490:39:52

ought to come back to in due course.

There is something strange with a

0:39:520:39:56

system where you can have a house

which is let to one tenant which is

0:39:560:40:01

deemed to be unfit with that tenant

in but if the tenant changes and a

0:40:010:40:06

new tenant moved in, the

0:40:060:40:17

House can become fit without having

worked on to it whatsoever because

0:40:260:40:29

the second tenant may be deemed to

be less of a risk than the first

0:40:290:40:32

tenant and being a risk-based system

means the level of fitness is

0:40:320:40:34

changed with the change of tenant,

and I think that is something that

0:40:340:40:37

is very difficult for most people to

understand and I think at some point

0:40:370:40:39

we have to revisit it. Finally,

local authorities and their ability

0:40:390:40:42

to take enforcement action in a

range of areas, the select committee

0:40:420:40:44

is currently looking at an inquiry

about both the powers and resources

0:40:440:40:46

that local authorities have to carry

out enforcement in the private

0:40:460:40:49

sector...

I recently undertook a

Freedom of Information with local

0:40:490:40:56

authorities in London to see how

many people had capital pots of

0:40:560:40:58

money to do works and the answer was

just two so our laws cannot be

0:40:580:41:05

enforced at the moment.

I think this

is a problem and we are getting

0:41:050:41:11

evidence to that effect and having

our second session next Monday on

0:41:110:41:14

this. The Government are bringing in

more powers for local authorities to

0:41:140:41:18

act, and they are welcome. The

banning orders which come into

0:41:180:41:21

effect in April are welcome, and

these are the worst landlords who

0:41:210:41:25

will have these banning orders and

their names ought to be up there in

0:41:250:41:29

lights for everyone to see what they

are up to, and they are good and

0:41:290:41:32

that is supported. The Government's

decision to extend the HMO

0:41:320:41:40

definition of properties that need

licenses to properties with two

0:41:400:41:45

stories is absolutely right as well,

I argued under the Labour Government

0:41:450:41:51

for that definition, unfortunately

at the time we could not persuade

0:41:510:41:54

ministers to include properties of

two stories, I'm pleased the

0:41:540:41:58

Government is doing it, that is

absolutely right as well, more work

0:41:580:42:01

for local authorities as well as

more powers. I hope the Government

0:42:010:42:05

brings in the requirement that all

private rented homes should have

0:42:050:42:09

their electrical systems checked

every five years. This consultation

0:42:090:42:13

has been a long time coming but I

hope that comes in as well, but a

0:42:130:42:17

game more work for local

authorities. I know my honourable

0:42:170:42:23

friend's bill is essentially giving

powers to tenants to act in this

0:42:230:42:27

case but in reality tenants are

going to need support and

0:42:270:42:31

assistance, they may well go to the

Shelter helpline which is based in

0:42:310:42:38

Sheffield and get the telephone

service there which is excellent,

0:42:380:42:41

they may go to their citizens advice

service, they may go to other advice

0:42:410:42:45

bureaus and get help, they may go to

their members of Parliament or the

0:42:450:42:49

local councillors, but very often

they will go to their councils and

0:42:490:42:53

seek help and assistance. What I

will say is that although the

0:42:530:42:58

primary requirement of the

legislation is to give powers to

0:42:580:43:02

tenants, in the end those tenants

may well go to the local authority

0:43:020:43:05

to get help and assistance with all

the

0:43:050:43:17

other measures coming in, very good

measures which the Government are

0:43:180:43:20

introducing, the extra power was for

local authorities to take

0:43:200:43:22

enforcement action, this legislation

may put extra demands on local

0:43:220:43:24

authority officers and the issue of

resources is still fundamental to

0:43:240:43:27

sorting out the problem and will be

raised as part of the select

0:43:270:43:29

committee inquiries and ministers

should be listening that without

0:43:290:43:31

resources local authorities will not

be able to offer the tenants the

0:43:310:43:33

assistance to make the legislation

affected.

0:43:330:43:40

Can I join in wishing you a happy

birthday and thank you when you

0:43:400:43:46

could be enjoying yourself in

another way.

0:43:460:43:56

I am sure you are going to enjoy our

debate.

0:43:560:44:01

Can I draw attention to my entry in

the interests that I am part of the

0:44:010:44:10

local Government Association and

have a small property portfolio.

0:44:100:44:15

I want to congratulate you on

bringing this much-needed bill to

0:44:150:44:19

this House, and to ensure that what

she has done is to make sure all

0:44:190:44:24

tenants whether they are in social

housing or private rented housing

0:44:240:44:28

will have the right to make sure

they are living in a decent home. It

0:44:280:44:33

is a fundamental right of everyone

to be able to live in a decent home.

0:44:330:44:39

This measure has been needed for a

long time.

0:44:390:44:45

It is a pleasure to follow the

honourable member for Sheffield

0:44:450:44:50

South East, the distinguished chair

of the Select Committee. He has a

0:44:500:45:01

long history of service in local

Government and serving this House in

0:45:010:45:07

holding the Government to account

through our work on the Select

0:45:070:45:11

Committee. I have had the pleasure

of serving for the last seven years

0:45:110:45:16

on that committee and in that time

we have looked at all aspects of the

0:45:160:45:21

private rented sector and socially

rented sector. This measure is

0:45:210:45:27

welcome and needed. Can I pay

tribute to the honourable member for

0:45:270:45:34

spreading west, the minister

responsible for negotiating with the

0:45:340:45:36

honourable lady to get this Bill

into such a form the Government can

0:45:360:45:43

now support, and I am pleased we

will be passing this unanimously a

0:45:430:45:48

bit later on today. I also welcome

the honourable member for South

0:45:480:45:54

Derbyshire and I will have questions

I will hope she will answer when she

0:45:540:46:00

rises to speak a bit later.

I would also like to thank all the

0:46:000:46:08

myriad of organisations that have

sent briefing notes to us, to look

0:46:080:46:13

at. All of whom praise and support

the Bill, I am delighted to say, and

0:46:130:46:19

that does mean it is likely to

receive a good passage right the way

0:46:190:46:28

through the House.

The reality is there are many

0:46:280:46:31

different types of landlords in the

private sector and associated rented

0:46:310:46:37

sector, accidental landlords who

inherit a property and rent it. Most

0:46:370:46:41

want to do the right thing. Often

they are ignorant of their

0:46:410:46:47

requirements and responsibilities

under the law. There is a duty on

0:46:470:46:51

Government to ensure those landlords

are educated in their

0:46:510:46:55

responsibilities to their tenants.

There are those who are small

0:46:550:46:58

investors who have chosen to use

this as a means of encouraging a pot

0:46:580:47:02

of money for their retirement or

other purposes, and then commercial

0:47:020:47:10

landlords in the private sector who,

in many ways, are really good

0:47:100:47:14

landlords, but there are some who

are rogues. This legislation does

0:47:140:47:24

indeed aim at spotting them and

putting them out of business and it

0:47:240:47:28

is right we should ramp up

activities to make sure those

0:47:280:47:32

individuals do not exploit

vulnerable people and vulnerable

0:47:320:47:34

tenants.

I thank him forgiving way. There is

0:47:340:47:43

evidence we as a co-member of the

Select Committee as we heard from

0:47:430:47:48

Shelton saying while the focus on

rogue vandals is important, that

0:47:480:47:52

alone can give a misleading

impression the experience of tenants

0:47:520:47:57

of poor quality rented housing is

limited to a small number and that

0:47:570:48:04

is not the case, there are landlords

who are inexperienced, lazy,

0:48:040:48:10

negligent in their response

abilities who fall short of rogue

0:48:100:48:13

but whose practice is nonetheless

not acceptable.

0:48:130:48:17

Quite clearly, when we look at the

percentages of properties that are

0:48:170:48:22

not decent, it is clear it is not

limited to a small number of rogue

0:48:220:48:27

landlords, I will come onto that

later.

0:48:270:48:34

Clearly, we have a position locally,

and I note the right honourable

0:48:340:48:39

Bamber for Brent North is in his

place, he and I share the challenge

0:48:390:48:44

of many individuals who may have

bought properties many years ago,

0:48:440:48:49

their lifestyles have changed, they

have moved out and chosen not to

0:48:490:48:52

sell, but to rent them, and

unfortunately in some cases to

0:48:520:48:59

literally exploit many vulnerable

people. The reality is those

0:48:590:49:04

individuals need to be called to

account. We have had in north-west

0:49:040:49:08

London a huge number of what are now

turned beds in sheds, small

0:49:080:49:16

developments, alongside properties

were unscrupulous landlords

0:49:160:49:22

literally force individuals to sleep

in absolutely unacceptable

0:49:220:49:26

conditions. The local authorities

concerned attempt to enforce the

0:49:260:49:32

rules. However, their resources are

limited and often it is a

0:49:320:49:36

requirement for people, I routinely

draw my local authorities's

0:49:360:49:42

attention to this landlords.

However, resources are limited. One

0:49:420:49:50

is the honourable member for

Sheffield South East has made is

0:49:500:49:56

local authorities need the resources

to enforce the law that exists right

0:49:560:50:01

now. Without that, I am concerned

that the good meaning behind the

0:50:010:50:07

Bill which is to give tenants rights

may not actually bring to fruition

0:50:070:50:13

what we all want to see which is the

creation of a properly decent home.

0:50:130:50:21

I thank my honourable friend

forgiving way. This is an important

0:50:210:50:27

point on the onus of responsibility.

One of the attractive features of

0:50:270:50:30

the Bill is it puts the part of

responsibility on the landlord as

0:50:300:50:37

opposed to them reacting with

varying degrees of enthusiasm --

0:50:370:50:40

Enthusiasm.

One of the concerns as to be when we

0:50:400:50:49

empower tenants that we have to

ensure they have got the

0:50:490:50:53

opportunities and understanding of

what their rights are, but also to

0:50:530:50:57

draw to the attention of landlords

what their duties are, to make sure

0:50:570:51:01

their homes are safe. One of the

issues we discovered when we did in

0:51:010:51:06

quarries through the Select

Committee worth the duties on

0:51:060:51:12

electrical safety. You will remember

some of the reviews that took place,

0:51:120:51:20

and are collection cup our

attachment on -- at the duties of

0:51:200:51:27

home owners, let alone landlords,

and often that is invisible to

0:51:270:51:35

tenants and to landlords.

But it is a hazard and it would be

0:51:350:51:41

risky for many tenants.

Can I say, in my constituency, in

0:51:410:51:50

one ward, more than 20% of

properties are rented out in the

0:51:500:51:56

private sector, most are now rented

out to people from the EU, mainly

0:51:560:52:03

Romania and Poland, who are being

exploited. Herded into cramped

0:52:030:52:11

accommodation in houses in multiple

occupation which are not licensed.

0:52:110:52:15

Although the local authority takes

action to combat that, it is a real

0:52:150:52:21

problem that individuals who have

come into this country to work hard

0:52:210:52:25

and earn a living and contribute to

this country, are being ruthlessly

0:52:250:52:30

exploited by a small number of

landlords and I condemn them.

0:52:300:52:40

Would he also accept it is not just

with migrant Labour where there is

0:52:400:52:45

this exploitation as he rightly

describes, but with the student

0:52:450:52:53

accommodation, there is a high churn

in the community of one year or less

0:52:530:52:58

that they are so exploited, and it

is the same as he is describing of

0:52:580:53:04

the migrant Labour sector.

It reminds me of the time when I was

0:53:040:53:10

at university in Liverpool and we

all suffered quite frankly appalling

0:53:100:53:15

conditions at that time in the

private rented sector. I don't

0:53:150:53:18

believe students, many more now who

will need private rented

0:53:180:53:25

accommodation for a period, many of

whom as he says are being exploited

0:53:250:53:31

as well and will put up with

conditions that others would

0:53:310:53:36

otherwise not, in order to get a

lower rent and not draw attention to

0:53:360:53:43

the problems.

That is a problem. It is not just a

0:53:430:53:49

problem. We need to be clear. Not

just a problem in the private

0:53:490:53:54

sector. There are local authorities

who don't maintain properties to a

0:53:540:53:59

decent standard, pockets of them,

and I remember as a local authority

0:53:590:54:04

leader applauding the then Labour

Government on providing funds to

0:54:040:54:09

bring local authority stock up to a

decent homes standard, a great thing

0:54:090:54:14

that meant local authorities could

do that. We still have large numbers

0:54:140:54:19

of properties that are owned by

councils that are not brought up to

0:54:190:54:24

a decent standard. Can I just do one

other point then I will gladly give

0:54:240:54:30

way.

We also have housing associations,

0:54:300:54:33

and the reality is, as I mentioned,

although 28% of the private rented

0:54:330:54:42

sector is non-decent, 14.8% of local

authority housing is still

0:54:420:54:49

non-decent, and 11.8% of housing

association properties are not

0:54:490:54:52

decent. This problem is not limited

to the private rental sector but

0:54:520:54:58

extended to the socially rented

sector which is why I strongly

0:54:580:55:02

support the draft Bill presented by

the Honourable lady because we are

0:55:020:55:08

looking at this in a competitive

manner.

0:55:080:55:10

I give way.

Would he agree there is

a problem in many local authority

0:55:100:55:21

housing stock where the local

authority has subcontracted out the

0:55:210:55:27

maintenance of their stock, often

for very long terms, with not enough

0:55:270:55:34

scrutiny, and it means tenants who

are responsible to the local

0:55:340:55:37

authority, are not able to do

anything, and the local authority

0:55:370:55:40

offered is not able to reel the

contract in. This might help provide

0:55:400:55:46

more leverage for the local

authority to step in.

0:55:460:55:50

One of the problems with local

authorities who choose to outsource

0:55:500:55:57

their responsibilities is they

should not be abdicating

0:55:570:56:01

responsibility they have two their

tenants. One problem there has been

0:56:010:56:06

is when tenants complain about that,

often, local authorities wash their

0:56:060:56:10

hands and say it has nothing to do

with us, go to the service company

0:56:100:56:16

responsible. Tenants find it

difficult to identify who is

0:56:160:56:20

actually responsible for these

aspects. I have many examples in my

0:56:200:56:26

constituency where individual

tenants have complained and not

0:56:260:56:31

being able to get the service they

should get from their landlord, be

0:56:310:56:38

it housing association or local

authority.

0:56:380:56:40

I thank the honourable gentleman for

being so generous in giving way. My

0:56:450:56:50

understanding in my own local

authority is the budgets of such

0:56:500:56:53

maintenance and repairs to local

authority owned properties has

0:56:530:56:56

already run out before Christmas for

this current financial year so they

0:56:560:57:00

are unable to do those repairs to

the properties.

I thank the

0:57:000:57:06

honourable member for the

intervention. Clearly there are

0:57:060:57:09

pressures on local authority

budgets, we recognise that

0:57:090:57:13

particular issue. But the key is you

is it is the responsibility of the

0:57:130:57:17

local authority to find the money to

honour their obligations. I can't

0:57:170:57:24

from this position talk about an

individual council's budget but the

0:57:240:57:28

reality is they have obligations and

they should not be, therefore,

0:57:280:57:33

rationing the service they provide

when they have legal obligations to

0:57:330:57:37

provide tenants with decent quality

homes. Could I move on? Deputy

0:57:370:57:44

Speaker, can I say that it is almost

a year ago today that I was standing

0:57:440:57:51

up on the report stage of my

Homelessness Reduction Bill, now the

0:57:510:57:55

Homelessness Reduction Act... And

remind the honourable lady for

0:57:550:58:04

Westminster North that during the

committee stage of the bill the only

0:58:040:58:08

amendment that we accepted and the

Government would accept through the

0:58:080:58:12

passage of that bill was her

amendment which meant that local

0:58:120:58:16

authorities, when they place of

vulnerable people in accommodation,

0:58:160:58:21

should have do inspect the premises

and make sure they are fit for human

0:58:210:58:27

habitation and are safe, which is a

dramatic change to the law. However,

0:58:270:58:31

that only is a narrow requirement on

those that are placed there who are

0:58:310:58:37

vulnerable by the local authorities

so I'm delighted that this piece of

0:58:370:58:42

legislation will now force all

landlords to bring their homes up to

0:58:420:58:46

a decent standard and an acceptable

fashion. But I do think there is one

0:58:460:58:55

or two concerns that I just want to

raise because I think this bill can

0:58:550:59:00

be improved still further. The first

is the need to tenants to understand

0:59:000:59:07

what their rights are and for the

enforcement of them. I also want to

0:59:070:59:13

see some protection for those people

that complain about their landlords

0:59:130:59:16

that we don't see that the

honourable gentleman raised on

0:59:160:59:24

retaliatory evictions taking place,

we do not want a position whereby

0:59:240:59:28

someone who takes action under this

bill suddenly find themselves

0:59:280:59:32

homeless because the landlord has

said, you can take me to court if

0:59:320:59:36

you want but if you do then I'm

going to evict you as a result. That

0:59:360:59:40

would be reprehensible and we have

to combat that in a way. I also have

0:59:400:59:46

a concern that whilst this gives

rights to tenants to challenge bad

0:59:460:59:53

landlords, the primary

responsibility for inspecting and

0:59:530:59:55

making sure that properties are safe

should reside with local

0:59:551:00:00

authorities. I have a real concern

that local authorities are now not

1:00:001:00:04

able to carry out those functions

because of a lack of funding and the

1:00:041:00:07

one concern I have in the

explanatory notes to the bill is the

1:00:071:00:11

lack of the need for a resolution to

provide more funds to local

1:00:111:00:17

authorities to enable them to

enforce the rules that should apply

1:00:171:00:22

and I would ask my honourable friend

the Minister to have a look at this

1:00:221:00:25

because I do think this is something

the department needs to look at in

1:00:251:00:28

the round to make sure that local

authorities are given the resources

1:00:281:00:32

that they need to actually ensure

that people can live in decent

1:00:321:00:37

accommodation.

I commend him for

that bill, the Homelessness

1:00:371:00:44

Reduction Bill, and on that note

money has been made available for

1:00:441:00:47

local authorities to carry out some

of their new duties which I think

1:00:471:00:51

indicates that make that bill work

there does need to be some support

1:00:511:00:54

for the local authorities, would he

agree with me?

I the honourable

1:00:541:01:00

lady, and clearly under the act that

I was able to get through the

1:01:001:01:04

Government were very generous and

produced some £83 million, I think

1:01:041:01:09

it was, in the end, to support the

first two years and £70 million of

1:01:091:01:14

that was as a result of the

honourable lady's amendment to

1:01:141:01:20

ensure premises or homes were

inspected, made fit for habitation,

1:01:201:01:25

before someone was moved in. So that

demonstrates the extent of a rather

1:01:251:01:31

narrow requirement, we are talking a

much broader requirement here, and

1:01:311:01:35

that is why I think there is a need

for a substantial injection of cash

1:01:351:01:39

for local authorities as a result. I

will give way again.

Thank you very

1:01:391:01:45

much, you are incredibly kind. Would

he agree with me that in many cases

1:01:451:01:53

the bill that he put forward still

is not being enforced and in many

1:01:531:02:01

cases, a case for example at

Christmas that I had of a mother

1:02:011:02:05

being moved into temporary

accommodation with the toilet

1:02:051:02:09

overflowing that lasted until we

intervened and the local authority

1:02:091:02:12

only take action when we intervened,

means that that bill was too weak

1:02:121:02:16

and there is a danger that without

resourcing for local authorities,

1:02:161:02:20

without increasing the cap on house

investment and without proper

1:02:201:02:27

enforcement all of these are nice

words but they are unenforceable.

I

1:02:271:02:33

thank the honourable gentleman,

clearly I would agree that what we

1:02:331:02:36

do need to do is ramp up funding and

responsibility and give local

1:02:361:02:42

authorities the powers that they

need and resources that they need to

1:02:421:02:46

carry out duties under this

legislation and other pieces of

1:02:461:02:49

legislation that have been put

through. Can I also ask the Minister

1:02:491:02:54

from the Government's side but we

also need to look at is the

1:02:541:02:58

sentencing guidelines that are given

out against rogue landlords. The

1:02:581:03:02

reality is that there may be a

maximum fine permissible of up to

1:03:021:03:08

£30,000 but it is very rare for the

courts to issue fines have that type

1:03:081:03:12

and the reality is that we need to

have a position whereby not only

1:03:121:03:18

should the fines be reinvested in

the service so that any money that

1:03:181:03:22

comes in can be reinvested in the

inspection and enforcement process,

1:03:221:03:26

but clear sentencing guidelines need

to be issued so that magistrates

1:03:261:03:29

courts will have a position whereby

they can maximise the fines,

1:03:291:03:34

particularly on the worst-case

scenarios.

Can I just confirm that

1:03:341:03:42

we only have 23 minutes until the

Government's statements for this

1:03:421:03:48

very important debate to conclude?

Is that correct?

It will not

1:03:481:03:53

conclude the debate but there will

be a statement at 11am. Bob

1:03:531:03:57

Blackman.

From the honourable

member's perspective, I am coming to

1:03:571:04:04

the end of my speech, I am very

supportive of the bill and cognisant

1:04:041:04:07

of the fact that the debate could be

adjourned whilst we have the

1:04:071:04:11

statements but will continue

thereafter to a conclusion, so he

1:04:111:04:15

should not worry too much about

that. One of the concern that I

1:04:151:04:22

have, Madam Deputy Speaker, is the

implementation period of this

1:04:221:04:26

legislation, I think in the

guidelines it suggested this will be

1:04:261:04:31

introduced three months after the

bill becomes an act of Parliament,

1:04:311:04:34

and I would ask the Minister, in her

speech, if she could look at whether

1:04:341:04:39

there is a need for secondary

legislation, regulation, as a result

1:04:391:04:43

of the bill being made into law

because I know from my own

1:04:431:04:49

experience that there is a myriad of

secondary legislation that I think

1:04:491:04:53

the Government is introducing next

month for my Act and I'm concerned

1:04:531:04:59

that we don't want to get to a

position whereby much-needed

1:04:591:05:04

secondary legislation is not ready

in time for the commencement of the

1:05:041:05:07

act and therefore we could have

potential problems later on. So, in

1:05:071:05:14

summary, Madam Deputy Speaker, I

strongly support the honourable

1:05:141:05:17

member for Westminster North's

proposed bill, I trust it will

1:05:171:05:21

receive a unanimous support across

the house, and I make the offer to

1:05:211:05:26

her that if she wishes me to serve

on the bill committee, I would be

1:05:261:05:31

delighted to do so to help her get

the bill through parliament.

Rupert

1:05:311:05:38

Hook.

It is a pleasure to follow my

dear neighbour in one direction and

1:05:381:05:47

also supporting the bill brought

before us from another west London

1:05:471:05:51

neighbour in another direction. My

friend for Westminster North.

1:05:511:05:56

Usually when legislation comes

before us as MPs, we have a

1:05:561:05:59

sophisticated lobbying operation

from people like change. Old and 38

1:05:591:06:05

degrees that spam us with lots of

e-mails but for this bill the number

1:06:051:06:08

of people that have contacted me has

been far wider than that. Every

1:06:081:06:14

Friday at my surgery, which I will

do after I finish here today, cases

1:06:141:06:16

that come before me knowingly or

unknowingly are asking for this

1:06:161:06:22

legislation and we went past the

20,000 mark for individual cases

1:06:221:06:27

processed since 2015 in my office

and a large number of those are

1:06:271:06:31

housing issues, people come and show

you pictures of damp which is just

1:06:311:06:36

too big to be a case of by a spray

and, bang, the dirt is gone, it is a

1:06:361:06:41

bigger problem than that, sealing

scathing did or whatever, people

1:06:411:06:46

with rodent infestations where their

children cannot sleep because of the

1:06:461:06:52

gnawing that keeps them up, the

cases are a multitude, but I'm

1:06:521:06:56

getting a strange sense of deja vu

because in 2015I remember one of the

1:06:561:07:00

first things I spoke in was my

honourable friend's built with

1:07:001:07:05

precisely the same title and on that

occasion it was told that by the

1:07:051:07:08

other side which is why some of us

on this side were getting a bit

1:07:081:07:11

jittery when the honourable member

for Harrow was being a bit

1:07:111:07:15

loquacious just then, we are

relieved to hear that was not the

1:07:151:07:18

case, anyway. It is look for a

modern Conservative party that

1:07:181:07:23

opposed homes fit for human

habitation and I'm glad they have

1:07:231:07:26

seen the error of their ways and

will be supporting this legislation

1:07:261:07:30

today. I only want to be brief

because I don't want to do the same

1:07:301:07:35

again and talk ourselves out with

this bill today so I will be very

1:07:351:07:38

brief. The gaps behind it have

already been dealt with, the

1:07:381:07:41

difficulties of enforcement... What

with the other things? Everyone has

1:07:411:07:48

dealt with this. I wanted to draw

attention to fire safety, which is

1:07:481:07:51

not dealt with in the existing

legislation, and my honourable

1:07:511:07:56

friend and I have the a 40 between

us and other side of the a 40 is the

1:07:561:08:00

Grenfell Tower. I went past it

yesterday, anyone who lives in

1:08:001:08:04

Ealing and goes to central London by

road would, and the bird carcass in

1:08:041:08:10

the sky and one of the richest

boroughs in our nation, that used to

1:08:101:08:14

be the world's this largest economy,

I think now the sixth post Brexit

1:08:141:08:18

but that is a story we will not get

into now, but the fact that there

1:08:181:08:22

were people burned alive in their

homes because people pooh-poohed the

1:08:221:08:26

idea of legislation, people that

await the idea of health and safety

1:08:261:08:31

as meddlesome and troubling, and

when you don't take these concerns

1:08:311:08:34

seriously that is the logical

extension of what happens, and it is

1:08:341:08:38

something that shamed our nation. My

honourable friend mentioned at the

1:08:381:08:42

very start the powerful groups who

are backing her bill, the Law

1:08:421:08:47

Society, the National Housing

Federation, the chartered Institute

1:08:471:08:50

for environmental health, Shelter,

51 years ago their film Cathy Come

1:08:501:08:57

Home shocked the nation and Grenfell

I feel has shocked the nation a

1:08:571:09:02

second time. As I said, I will not

be long. What else was I going to

1:09:021:09:06

say? As an opposition MP, I'm into

holding the Government to account.

1:09:061:09:12

This legislation holds landlords to

recount where standards are not met

1:09:121:09:15

and I have to say last time this

came before... Well, no, actually, I

1:09:151:09:23

will just get this while I am here,

as a chair of an all-party part to

1:09:231:09:29

group on single-parent families, you

don't have Doobie want to be in our

1:09:291:09:32

group, by the way, quick plug there

-- you don't have to do B1, I am

1:09:321:09:38

quick to point out that the Joseph

Rowntree Foundation's figures show

1:09:381:09:42

single parents are more likely to

live in a substandard property than

1:09:421:09:46

any other family, 20% compared to a

national average of 7%, and the

1:09:461:09:53

English Housing Survey shows people

in poverty are more likely to live

1:09:531:09:56

in hazardous homes than those who

are not, so that is why this

1:09:561:10:00

legislation is needed. As I say, I

am pleased to see the Government's

1:10:001:10:05

change of heart. The last and this

came before the house, the Member

1:10:051:10:09

for Nuneaton scandalously said that

my honourable friend's proposals and

1:10:091:10:13

Labour Party proposals for things

like landlord licensing, I'm pleased

1:10:131:10:18

my borough of Ealing does have a

register of landlords, but the

1:10:181:10:21

honourable member for Nuneaton, said

this would result in an unnecessary

1:10:211:10:28

regulation and cost to landlords,

deter further investment and push up

1:10:281:10:32

rents for tenants. I think that is

scandalous, and I'm glad that this

1:10:321:10:37

Government, we have a new

Government, don't become a Prime

1:10:371:10:40

Minister who talked on the steps of

Downing Street about burning

1:10:401:10:43

injustice, so I'm glad they will put

their money where their mouth is and

1:10:431:10:47

back this legislation which I hope

will be a staging post after the

1:10:471:10:52

next general election for a

Government that is for the many, not

1:10:521:10:54

the few.

1:10:541:11:04

I will be brief, there are members

who wish to contribute. Can I

1:11:041:11:09

welcome the Minister to her place,

and congratulate my honourable

1:11:091:11:14

friend for all the work he did on

homelessness production. And the

1:11:141:11:22

lady for Westminster North for the

work over a number of years on this

1:11:221:11:27

issue, to make sure this can be

supported.

1:11:271:11:33

I note this Bill will grant tenants

the right to take action in courts

1:11:331:11:38

against landlords who failed to

ensure their property is fit for

1:11:381:11:42

human habitation and I know

colleagues today will identify and

1:11:421:11:48

recognise the stories that have been

pointed out about issues we have all

1:11:481:11:54

seen about damp, the lack of proper

drainage in some properties. I thank

1:11:541:12:00

her other half of constituents for

bringing this matter forward. And

1:12:001:12:07

picture beauty to the Citizens'

Advice Bureau in South

1:12:071:12:11

Gloucestershire and South Scottish

Council for all the work they have

1:12:111:12:14

done ahead of this debate. It is

clear the current system needs

1:12:141:12:19

updating, if a tenant is in unfit

property, the system allows local

1:12:191:12:24

authorities to assess whether it

contains serious risk and where it

1:12:241:12:31

does require the landlord to reduce

the risk or remove it completely.

1:12:311:12:36

The upshot being an offence is

committed only when a landlord fails

1:12:361:12:41

to comply with an enforcement

notice. This Bill is writing that

1:12:411:12:50

wrong. By putting the obligation on

land laws to keep their property in

1:12:501:12:58

good condition. There are already

statutory obligations to keep in

1:12:581:13:02

repair the structure and exterior of

properties. And ensure their

1:13:021:13:10

properties to be fit for habitation,

this has had to be addressed. When a

1:13:101:13:24

map -- when a landlord fails to

ensure a property is fit for

1:13:241:13:30

habitation, damp, ventilation, water

supply, we would take for granted in

1:13:301:13:34

our own lives all of this, this Bill

empowers tenants to take action in

1:13:341:13:42

court to hold their landlord to

account where there has been a

1:13:421:13:46

failing, to apply for an injunction.

Does he agree the fact a tenant can

1:13:461:13:55

get damages is a huge improvement in

this Bill, particularly because

1:13:551:14:00

living in substandard accommodation,

for example, with mould or damp, can

1:14:001:14:08

be depressing, have an effect on

your mental health, and that

1:14:081:14:13

punitive element of damages will

make a real difference in terms of

1:14:131:14:17

enforcement and hopefully in terms

of lawyers taking forward and

1:14:171:14:22

enforcing rights?

She is right, this Bill doesn't just

1:14:221:14:30

give the power to hold landlords to

account by making them carry out

1:14:301:14:37

works but gives the power to

instruct compensation as well. This

1:14:371:14:48

Bill manages to achieve that while

still being proportionate, it is not

1:14:481:14:55

overly burdensome on landlords

because of the simple principle it

1:14:551:14:58

should not increase costs or create

compass and work because landlords

1:14:581:15:02

are already providing good service

to tenants and good quality

1:15:021:15:09

accommodation, the vast majority

are. It will push landlords to act

1:15:091:15:15

proactively, creating a ripple

effect in the industry to create a

1:15:151:15:19

culture where the industry is more a

safety and people first culture. It

1:15:191:15:27

protects to Koech -- landlords from

spurious claims where the property

1:15:271:15:34

isn't being used for the purpose it

is being let or pushing landlords to

1:15:341:15:38

be responsible for repair for items

where the tenant can remove it from

1:15:381:15:46

the property. One landlord contacted

me this morning welcome the Bill

1:15:461:15:52

because it is not seen as a threat

but supporting the industry by

1:15:521:15:57

enhancing the reputation of the vast

majority of landlords. I will

1:15:571:16:04

conclude and say this Bill empowers

tenants, the text landlords, dries

1:16:041:16:09

up standard across both sectors, I

look forward to supporting it today.

1:16:091:16:17

Thank you. I wish to pay tribute to

my honourable friend for Westminster

1:16:171:16:25

North for bringing this Bill and

would like to pay tribute to the

1:16:251:16:31

honourable member for Sheffield

South East for the debate in

1:16:311:16:34

Westminster Hall yesterday on

supported housing. While this was

1:16:341:16:38

not exactly the same issue, there is

the issue that many tenants we are

1:16:381:16:44

talking about here are very

vulnerable and clearly there is a

1:16:441:16:49

benefit to society for enabling the

maximum number to lead independent

1:16:491:16:53

lives and some other people who are

not currently able to gain redress

1:16:531:16:58

for inadequate housing run the risk

of ending up in supported housing or

1:16:581:17:04

hospital.

Last weekend, I called on a couple

1:17:041:17:09

who invited me to that act to show

me the mould that had grown around

1:17:091:17:14

the bathroom, in their sitting room

and the bedroom. They live in a

1:17:141:17:20

council flat in Ipswich. I was able

to pass on their details to the

1:17:201:17:25

local councillors in the expectation

that something will be done to

1:17:251:17:29

rectify the situation. The council

doesn't always get things right. I

1:17:291:17:34

believe Ipswich Borough housing is

an exemplar of good practice but

1:17:341:17:39

even good landlords get things wrong

sometimes. That is why it is

1:17:391:17:44

important this Bill will apply to

local authority housing properties

1:17:441:17:48

in the same way as private rented

accommodation. It impacts more on

1:17:481:17:54

those public sector tenants who need

help because whereas a private

1:17:541:17:59

sector tenants might hold up some

hope they could persuade the local

1:17:591:18:03

council to act legally on their

behalf, a council is not going to

1:18:031:18:07

take out a legal case against

itself. One would hope accountable

1:18:071:18:13

local authorities would take their

responsibilities to tenants

1:18:131:18:16

seriously to rectify unfitness

without the need for legal recourse.

1:18:161:18:22

Unfortunately, that is not the case.

In those cases, council tenants have

1:18:221:18:28

no recourse to the law at all. This

Bill will enable council tenants to

1:18:281:18:33

take legal action if no action were

taken to put right any unfitness

1:18:331:18:40

just as it will to private sector

tenants. I know members opposite

1:18:401:18:44

would not be willing to accept a

bill that unfairly favoured public

1:18:441:18:49

sector housing over private sector

housing. This Bill does not do so. I

1:18:491:18:56

could wish that in the interests of

fairness and a level playing field

1:18:561:19:00

the members opposite might consider

other measures for the private

1:19:001:19:05

sector and changes to the law and

regulations for the local authority

1:19:051:19:09

sector but I think that is for

another day.

1:19:091:19:14

While this Bill does afford an

important and necessary protection

1:19:141:19:18

to council and housing association

tenants, the problem also exists in

1:19:181:19:22

private sector. In the East of

England, 20% of private sector

1:19:221:19:27

rental stock is a mistake that pose

a serious risk to health, as

1:19:271:19:31

compared with 8% of the Council and

housing association stock. In my 20

1:19:311:19:37

years as a local councillor I was

constantly being contacted by

1:19:371:19:42

residents who showed me mouldy

walls, dodgy doors, awkward entrance

1:19:421:19:48

halls, rickety windows. I would

raise these issues

1:19:481:20:01

with council officers but in almost

every case was told there was no

1:20:041:20:07

action, the council could take with

the private sector landlord on these

1:20:071:20:10

matters. This Bill will empower the

tenants to demand safe and healthy

1:20:101:20:12

homes from their landlords. I do not

believe there will be any rash of

1:20:121:20:15

prosecutions as a result. I believe

it will focus the minds of those

1:20:151:20:17

landlords private and public who do

not currently pay enough attention

1:20:171:20:20

to the welfare of their tenants, and

encourage them to provide the level

1:20:201:20:25

of service which 75% of landlords

are already providing. All good

1:20:251:20:31

landlord should welcome this Bill.

Why should the scent of a percent

1:20:311:20:35

who provide fit and proper housing

be undercut by rogue operators who

1:20:351:20:39

see their sector tarred with the

brush of shoddy flat convergence? I

1:20:391:20:46

look forward to this Bill becoming

law.

1:20:461:20:56

Could I join colleagues in

congratulating the honourable lady

1:20:561:20:59

for Westminster North in bringing

forward this Bill and her opening

1:20:591:21:04

speech today which I thought set out

very well why this Bill is so

1:21:041:21:09

important. It is addressing a very

important issue not just the sum of

1:21:091:21:15

my own constituents but across the

country. Whilst I join colleagues on

1:21:151:21:22

both sides of the House in

recognising the vast majority of

1:21:221:21:26

private landlords are not rogue

landlords, they act very responsibly

1:21:261:21:32

and provide their tenants with

excellent accommodation and service,

1:21:321:21:38

the reality is there are a small

minority who exploit some of the

1:21:381:21:43

most vulnerable in society, and this

Bill is important in addressing

1:21:431:21:47

that. I am very pleased the

Government has decided to support

1:21:471:21:51

the Bill today and I add my support

to that. The garment has already

1:21:511:21:59

made good progress, since 2010,

introducing powers for local

1:21:591:22:04

authorities and with that £12

million to help them identify and

1:22:041:22:08

prosecute some of the worst

offenders. 70,000 properties have

1:22:081:22:13

been inspected and 5000 landlords

have had further action taken or

1:22:131:22:20

even had prosecution brought

thereafter. So too has the

1:22:201:22:24

Government brought in measures to

protect tenants against retaliatory

1:22:241:22:30

evictions and last year further

measures were brought in on rogue

1:22:301:22:34

landlords leading to penalties of up

to £30,000. That is very welcome

1:22:341:22:38

indeed. But those measures alone as

the Government recognises are not

1:22:381:22:46

enough and there is more...

I give way. He missed out on

1:22:461:22:49

regulation, on the minimum energy

efficiency standards I brought to

1:22:491:22:55

this House on the private rental

sector which could be a huge attack

1:22:551:23:02

on fuel poverty. Will he ensure the

Government implements it from April

1:23:021:23:06

this year so we can tackle fuel

poverty and the worst examples of

1:23:061:23:12

uninsulated homes in the private

rental sector?

1:23:121:23:16

He and I are fellow travellers in

our enthusiasm for home energy

1:23:161:23:21

efficiency and that is where I was

to move on. I fear he may need to

1:23:211:23:26

stay for a while during the

statement to hear both parts of my

1:23:261:23:31

thoughts on home energy efficiency.

The Government has brought in

1:23:311:23:39

excellent legislation, there is more

to do which the Government has

1:23:391:23:45

recognised and this Bill is hugely

important addressing what remains to

1:23:451:23:48

be done.

As he said, one of the key parts in

1:23:481:23:55

ensuring homes are fit for

habitation is in how well insulated

1:23:551:24:00

they are and how efficient they are

with their energy. Too many people

1:24:001:24:05

live in fuel poverty, not

necessarily because they haven't the

1:24:051:24:11

money to heat their property, but

because their property is so poorly

1:24:111:24:15

insulated and the appliance so

inefficient that the costs of

1:24:151:24:21

heating are actually

disproportionate to what they should

1:24:211:24:24

be if all those measures were

adequately in place. We have to

1:24:241:24:28

start to move on from an argument

that says all that matters in

1:24:281:24:34

housing is providing it at the most

affordable cost to rent or buy.

1:24:341:24:39

Equally important surely is what it

costs to live in that property each

1:24:391:24:45

month thereafter. I would argue very

much in talking today about homes

1:24:451:24:52

that are fit for human habitation,

we should be focused very much on

1:24:521:24:56

making sure the houses people are

living in not only affordable to

1:24:561:25:03

rent but affordable to live in each

month and that requires much higher

1:25:031:25:09

expectations of landlords when it

comes to the home energy efficiency

1:25:091:25:15

measures and installation within

their properties. One member of the

1:25:151:25:19

set in the second speech, in an

intervention, had a startling

1:25:191:25:27

statistic about the cost each year

to the NHS of people living in the

1:25:271:25:32

poorly insulated homes. That figure

was 1.4 billion, which seems to me a

1:25:321:25:40

good reason for why we should make

it more a priority to have better

1:25:401:25:46

insulated homes so people can live

in comfort but be able to afford to

1:25:461:25:49

live in their home.

1:25:491:25:54

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