12/03/2018 House of Lords


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12/03/2018

Live coverage of the evening's proceedings in the House of Lords, including the committee stage of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill.


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that this House to adjourn.

Many of

that opinion say, I. The iPods might

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have order, order.

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-- the I's have it.

We will not be

going live to the House of Lords.

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Remember you can watch recorded

coverage of all of today's business

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in the Lords after the daily

politics later tonight.

I agree that

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I think we will look at how we can

have the conversation and discussion

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move this forward like my noble

friend Lord Forsyth I have grave

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doubts and indeed we won't be moving

to the position of consent. I would

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like to see us move to position

where we are certainly talking and

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consulting and I'm happy to engage

at that. I think anon devolved areas

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to move into a position of consent

would be dangerous. I think my noble

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friend once again for what he said

and I totally agree that if you

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thought this was difficult just wait

until we get to clause 11. I think

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this is relatively straightforward

and I can see through this where we

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would have wrought agreement and I

think also 11 again and look Lord

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Griffis indicated it will be much

more difficult. I agree with him

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that I think it is important that we

should move to a position where it

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does relate to devolved areas. There

is a convention that has grown up

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and widely accepted about consent. I

think that is absolutely right.

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Think Lord Griffis for the clarity

and I agree with him about the

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importance of the transparency and

of coming up with something that I

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think is common sense which was

essentially what he was saying. I

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don't disagree. Therefore, my lords,

I think we're probably reached

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agreement on clause seven. In

relation to clause eight and clause

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nine I am happy to look at the

points that were made and to discuss

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further ahead of report but I would

ask in the meantime at the noble

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lord noble lady would withdraw their

amendments.

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I would like to thank the normal

Lord for his break

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characteristically detailed and

courteous response and we look

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forward to examining these

amendments in greater detail ahead

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of report stage where we will

probably have many longer

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discussions about these amendments I

report stage. In the meantime, I beg

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leave to withdraw the amendment.

Let

this amendment be John. The

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amendment I leave is John. I meant

90. -- drawn.

I moved a madman

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across earlier today. I think I did.

-- the amendment. Some time ago. I'm

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very grateful to all noble Lords who

have spoken in this debate. It seems

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to me to some of very, very briefly

that there was a theme that ran

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through various contributions which

I now bring to a point. I picked up

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from the noble lord the point that

the Government had not really

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carried the people with them in the

way they've responded to devolution

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at least in Wales. And then Lord

Morris was saying that devolution

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was yet to be taken seriously. The

Baroness was saying that the

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atmosphere is becoming increasingly

negative. These are very unfortunate

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phrases to be using any situation

where we are seeking to seek

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agreement. But then Lord Wallace

said that, to accept these

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amendments would be a step forward.

He was saying that it what it really

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cost the Government much trouble to

accept the amendments. Given what

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they have been saying about their

intentions and the use of powers

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which have been given to the

Ministers of state by these three

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causes. What's, my point is this. It

doesn't really look at the Minister

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searches his conscious thoroughly

that they have very much to lose, if

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anything. At the same time, there is

a lot to be gained because it would

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help to at least change the

atmosphere which at the moment is so

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negative. He is made a step forward

and clause seven which I appreciate

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that he has done it because he says

he doesn't need to bother with the

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Scotland act because it will go to a

report stage. I applaud that. Surely

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he might take the same step with

clause nine and clause eight. But if

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so, why not just say so? Why not put

these measures into the Bill and get

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this all over with? There is bad to

take away from this debate. There's

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one other point. If you do put a

closet this kind into clause seven,

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then people will get clause eight

and nine say, it's not there. The

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situation is different. There's a

lot in phrase for this... -- Lattin.

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That means that if you put one thing

and you exclude the others. You need

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to look rather carefully at the

wisdom of putting in a very sensible

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amendment and not reproducing it in

clause eight and nine as well. These

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are thoughts which I hope we can

take into discussions which I might

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have with the noble lord, the

Minister. We look forward to the

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report stage when you will come

forward with this other amendments.

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I think suffers this evening is

concerned, that's as far as we can

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take the matter. But for the time

being, I beg leave to withdraw the

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amendment.

Let this amendment be

withdrawn. The amendment is by leave

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with John. Amendments 92 and 93. Not

moved. Amendment 94. Lord Newby. Not

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moved. Amendment 90 five. Not moved.

And 96. Not moved. 97. Not moved.

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98. Not moved. 99.

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know not moved amendment 101, not

moved.

101 A, not moved. 100 one B

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is withdrawn. 102 I'm afraid I have

to introduce this very concisely.

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There are two

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to introduce this very concisely.

There are two amendments undermine

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him at this group. Whether you seek

to do is to qualified the extent

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given to Ministers to make... To

which these clauses refer asking

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that they are not exercised without

her consent of Scottish or Welsh

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Ministers. So far the provisions

would be... Within the meaning given

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to that expression in the paragraph.

My lords, part of these amendments

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is to respect the Constitution SI

cost additional importance. It seems

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certainly in Cardiff and Edinburgh

as a responsibility of the devolved

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authorities, they have that

responsibility by virtue of the

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Democratic codes by virtue of which

there were elected. Their position,

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and it seems to me, is that it

should not be for UK Ministers to

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enter into that area, which is the

devolved to them, without their

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consent. Especially in the exercise

and other power as I referred to, to

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make any provision to clauses that

could be made by an act of

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Parliament. I mentioned... In

practise, the principal has been

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operated for quite a long time. In

the way the dilution system has been

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developed to a fundamental statute.

The problem is that these clauses

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fail to be reflected in practise and

that does need to be corrected. It's

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just to accept the point in its

statutory context. So far as the

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Ministers are concerned, this

section. The Scotland act of 1998

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sets out the basic rule that insofar

as exercising a rule, they have to

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be exercised by the Scottish

Ministers instead by Ministers of

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the. Section 52 .1 but that rule is

qualified by section 57.1 in the

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case of functions in relation to

observing and implementing

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obligations under EU law. A member

of the Scottish Government has no

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pride in making is subordinate...

What section 57.1 does is provide...

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For the purposes set out in section

two, subsection two of the European

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excerpt, 1972. No mention is made in

the statute, of the consent of

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Scottish Ministers before that power

is exercised in relation to EU law.

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But, this is how I am coming out to

have toward these matters in

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practise, these brought the strike

provisions are operated in practise

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by successive memoranda of

understanding of dilution between

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the UK Government and the devolved

institutions. We must recall that to

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begin with, the Government in an

umbrella and the Government in

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Westminster were of the same

persuasion. That of course assisted

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very much in the setting up a

memoranda at common understanding.

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The latest of these memoranda was

published in October 2013. The

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coordination of EU policy issues,

memoranda and states that the UK

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Government wishes to invoke, the

devolved administration is directly

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and directly as fully as possible on

decision-making on UK decision

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matters that involve the devolved

areas. Amongst other things, it is

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for the devolved administrations to

consider in consultation how the EU

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obligations should be implemented

and enforced. Including, whether

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they should be included by the

devolved administration themselves

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separately, or by the UK or UK

legislation. Ever since devolution,

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as I understand, it's been a matter

of routine between Scotland and

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White Hall says these institutions

were set up. This is important

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because it does enable the Scottish

Government to fulfil the

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responsibilities that are being

devolved to them without there being

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cut across by measures taken in

Whitehall with other agreement. I

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think it's important to say that it

is a system that has worked

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remarkably well, the cooperation

between civil servants on both sides

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of the border and initiatives of

these political agreements is not

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indicated for on both sides of the

border to. Now the context in which

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the powers are given to Ministers of

the crown, the clause 7.8, is

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different because we are leaving the

EU behind. This bill is about the

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withdrawal process. We found that in

the Bill has it stands the moment,

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section 15 seven .1, Scotland is

being committed.

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... Their effect is that the power

of the Scottish Ministers will be

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under restriction into EU, in

relation to EU law, to retain BU Law

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which is similar to that in relation

to EU law the present. But when we

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look at the clause, we see that the

Ministers of the crop will have

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powers with those provisions to

modify, retain BU Law in areas of P

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C Bass I policy. EU law. So the

amendments which I am putting

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forward in this group, seeking to

deal with the problem. There are

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provisions in schedules, and will

provide EU laws being treated the

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same way as regards all competence.

The problem is that they fail to

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recognise much of the problem with

retaining EU laws will return with

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matters of the devolved competence

of Scottish and Welsh governments.

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To deprive them of their... Would be

very unfortunate and would create a

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situation where both in Cardiff and

Edinburgh regarded as quite

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unacceptable. It would mean that

while policy areas are in devolved

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competence that arrays no issues of

retaining EU lied all, would be

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fully for the devolved

administration to do with

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themselves. We have policy areas

within the same devolved areas which

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would be subject to provisions in

the Bill without any need to get the

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consent of the devolved government.

The point I'm trying to make as

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briefly as I can, is that there is a

recipe for confusion and

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mismanagement which would be in the

buddy 's interest. Milos, those

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remarks that have been making art --

my lords. It applies to clause eight

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as well. My point is really,, and on

these two clauses and seeking try to

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avoid the risk of confusion and

mismanagement, which at the praise

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and is avoided by the common

understanding of the memoranda which

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works so well. My lords, I hope that

you are willing to accept these

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amendments.

There has the best thing

to do I can do is back to move and

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then we can get it to discussion.

Page six line 25 amendment 103, 102,

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my lords I will speak to amendments

to the amendments tabled in my name.

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I shall be extremely brief because

many of the arguments have already

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been rehearsed. Again, I believe

these amendments raise issues that

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are fundamental. Amendments to

include Northern Ireland, it was

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very carefully constructed and

delicately balance as my balance.

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The settlement the best interest of

people in Northern Ireland. Since

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1998, the prowess of been enhanced,

with a transfer of police powers in

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2010 to the Assembly, in an act go

to this Parliament allowing for.

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Given the delicate negotiations that

took place to reach that settlement

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and the very nature of identity

politics in Northern Ireland, I hope

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the Ministers agree, should be to

give their consent to any move to

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make red... Regulations that would

encroach on the Northern Ireland

0:18:300:18:40

assembly.... I beg to move.

I would

just like to ask whether it would be

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possible to deal with his point by

dealing with the memorandum I can

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see the force of that.

But I don't

know whether that is an option that

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is available in the present time. So

far as reassuring the parties both

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in Cardiff and entire Edinburgh,,

it's a matter of trying to find a

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way of divine way to soften the

atmosphere. I haven't been

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discussing clause 11 differently --

deliberately because it is

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different.

Later tonight on it in

July of 1998, I was sitting, a Lord

0:19:340:19:59

junked his feet to respond the

amendment. The Scotland build he

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said -- IM resisting that he said

clause 27 makes it clear that

0:20:150:20:21

dilution of legislative competence

to the Scottish Government does not

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affect the ability of Westminster to

legislate for Scotland even in

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relation to devolved matters. Indeed

as a paragraph of white papers

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explain, there could be instances

where it would be more convenient

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for legislation on devolved matter

to be passed by the United Kingdom

0:20:400:20:44

Parliament. However, as happened in

Northern Ireland early in the

0:20:440:20:48

century, we would expect a

convention to be established that

0:20:480:20:51

when Mr would not normally legislate

on devolved matter without the

0:20:510:20:58

consent of the Scottish Parliament.

He continued, if problems do arise

0:20:580:21:02

the solution, the Scottish solving

the matter through political

0:21:020:21:09

dialogue. That is the difference

between Parliaments. That is what

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happened another political systems.

I cannot believe that it is belong

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-- might our wit to develop such a

convention. It's the use of the word

0:21:210:21:27

normally was off the cuff and I

imagine that the Lord it would've

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been a surprise, that will become

something that would be subject to

0:21:320:21:40

such intense examination as it has

become in subsequent years. .

The

0:21:400:21:47

word normally was certainly not

off-the-cuff. Lengthy debate that

0:21:470:21:52

we've had. You will find it was very

considerable debate. The wisdom of

0:21:520:22:01

including what he said,

0:22:010:22:07

I think the noble lord misses the

point. I'm saying that is where the

0:22:070:22:13

word normally first originated in

1998. No doubt hit has received

0:22:130:22:19

considerable debate sense. I have

listened to debate on the topic. My

0:22:190:22:25

lords, the problem is a lack of

trust. This is been mentioned by a

0:22:250:22:29

number of local Billy -- noble

Lords.

0:22:290:22:34

A number of interventions between

the United Kingdom government and

0:22:390:22:42

the Scottish Government and no doubt

a lack of trust between the laboured

0:22:420:22:46

government in Wales and the

Government in Westminster. It really

0:22:460:22:55

derives it seems to me from the

suggestion that there should be an

0:22:550:23:01

imposition by the Westminster

government on areas which are

0:23:010:23:07

currently devolved to the

Parliament. Lords, I look at the

0:23:070:23:16

leave campaign's open letter on the

14th of June, 2016, a week before

0:23:160:23:20

the referendum where they said there

is more than enough money to ensure

0:23:200:23:26

that those who now get funding from

the EU including universities,

0:23:260:23:31

scientist, family farmers, regional

farms, cultural organisations and

0:23:310:23:36

others will continue to do so while

also ensuring that we save money

0:23:360:23:41

that can be spent on our priorities.

0:23:410:23:53

The leader of the Conservatives and

Wales, Mr Andrew Davis said that

0:23:550:24:00

today's announcement is usually

welcome and further evidence that

0:24:000:24:03

Wales would be better off as the

European Union. We now know that

0:24:030:24:09

funding for reached in every part of

the UK including Wales will be safe

0:24:090:24:13

if we vote to leave. The First

Minister for Wales said this. Those

0:24:130:24:19

who signed this letter have no mark

power to deliver on it that my

0:24:190:24:24

children's pet cat. However, lords,

the referendum was one by the leaf

0:24:240:24:36

action and in the conservative

manifesto 2017 the proposal was to

0:24:360:24:42

set up a UK Shared Prosperity Fund.

This is from the manifesto of

0:24:420:24:47

austere said. We will use the

structural funds money that comes

0:24:470:24:51

back to the UK following Brexit to

create a United Kingdom Shared

0:24:510:24:57

Prosperity Fund specifically

designed to reduce inequalities

0:24:570:25:01

between communities across our four

nations. We will consult widely on

0:25:010:25:07

the design of the fund, including

with the devolved administrations,

0:25:070:25:13

local authorities, businesses and

public bodies. My lords, the word

0:25:130:25:18

that was used there in that

manifesto was consult. And not,

0:25:180:25:23

agree. Certainly there was no

suggestion that they would look for

0:25:230:25:28

consent. Similarly. And the

agreement with the DU peak, the

0:25:280:25:36

paper that was published in June

2017, the UK Government financial

0:25:360:25:40

support for Northern Ireland said,

Northern Ireland's needs will be

0:25:400:25:45

properly reflected in the fund which

will benefit all parts of the United

0:25:450:25:49

Kingdom. So it seems that the

intention as expressed in that

0:25:490:25:54

manifesto was for the United Kingdom

government at Westminster to hold

0:25:540:26:00

the money back so that the

structural funds and Dole at the

0:26:000:26:05

money as it thinks fit without any

requirement for agreement. That's

0:26:050:26:10

where the mistrust intensified. The

position is this, Lord Morris

0:26:100:26:24

mentioned it earlier, ... If in

taking over the rules and

0:26:240:26:31

regulations relating to regional

development, the money were to be

0:26:310:26:38

distributed on the formula, Wales

would be significantly worse off.

0:26:380:26:44

The Bevan foundation and their

report published in conjunction with

0:26:440:26:49

the Welsh local Government

Association last October said this,

0:26:490:26:53

the estimated allocation of funds

for Wales using the Barnard formula

0:26:530:27:00

between 2014 and 2020 would be not

the actual to .2 euros billion but

0:27:000:27:07

just 562 million euros. In other

words, if you up by the Barnard

0:27:070:27:12

formula to the structural funds,

Wales would of got a quarter of what

0:27:120:27:17

it actually did get or is promised

up until 2020. We really do not know

0:27:170:27:23

what is going to happen after that.

No commitments have been made. If

0:27:230:27:29

this clause remains unamended, the

United Kingdom government will have

0:27:290:27:35

the power to take over all the rules

and regulations relating to regional

0:27:350:27:39

development and to agriculture and

fisheries and many other areas and

0:27:390:27:47

change them and develop other

structures as it thinks fit. A B

0:27:470:27:49

that's a good thing, providing the

devolved administration's consent to

0:27:490:27:56

it. I cannot understand why the

Government will resist the concept

0:27:560:28:03

of consent, agreement. Surely that

is the way forward. I think the only

0:28:030:28:07

reason they do resist it is because

they don't trust the people that

0:28:070:28:11

they are negotiating with. They are

the Unionist party and United

0:28:110:28:18

Kingdom that doesn't show much for

United Kingdom if you can't trust to

0:28:180:28:22

the degree of getting sensible

agreement that the other partners to

0:28:220:28:27

the kingdom. That's what the fuss is

about. I support these amendments.

0:28:270:28:35

Following on what the noble lord has

said, surely it is a responsibility

0:28:350:28:39

of a government of the United

Kingdom and this is a point which is

0:28:390:28:45

often made by Scottish Nationalist

but one of the parties but by the

0:28:450:28:53

Scottish Nationalists is that we

mustn't leave the European Union

0:28:530:28:55

because we are so dependent on the

single market which is the European

0:28:550:28:59

Union. What I think we should be

focusing on here tonight is the

0:28:590:29:03

single market which is the United

Kingdom. Listening to the noble

0:29:030:29:08

lord, what would happen for example,

taking his point about the Barnard

0:29:080:29:12

formula, he's right the Barnard

formula is extremely generous to

0:29:120:29:15

Scotland and unfair to Wales. In my

opinion, resources should be

0:29:150:29:22

distributed according to need and

not according to some days that is

0:29:220:29:27

been amended according to

population. If it is to be the case

0:29:270:29:33

that the Welsh Parliament and the

Scottish Parliament are to have

0:29:330:29:37

vetoes on these matters, what is the

prospect of whales being able to get

0:29:370:29:41

a fairer share of its going to be

vetoed by Scotland? Is a matter for

0:29:410:29:45

the United Kingdom government to

decide for the United Kingdom as a

0:29:450:29:50

whole and for the single market that

is the United Kingdom as a whole. I

0:29:500:29:53

have to say to the noble lord, I

think his amendments are naive. We

0:29:530:30:03

are faced with the administration in

Scotland which is absolutely

0:30:030:30:07

determined to break up United

Kingdom. That is their purpose. We

0:30:070:30:12

can have all the talks until the

crack of doom with demonstration and

0:30:120:30:19

they will... This civil servants

will be taking exactly the kind of

0:30:190:30:26

sensible, tight medic, legalistic

approach that Lord Hope is doing.

0:30:260:30:30

The politician X have another

agenda. Which is to destroy the

0:30:300:30:37

United Kingdom. As seed Unionist, I

have an agenda to make sure that

0:30:370:30:41

every part of the United Kingdom is

treated fairly. And that there is no

0:30:410:30:45

veto for any part of the United

Kingdom. This we have for

0:30:450:30:51

Parliaments in the United Kingdom.

We only have fun United Kingdom

0:30:510:30:57

Parliament and that is this. When

lords who will produced his

0:30:570:31:02

convention he was greeted with great

enthusiasm by the Scottish

0:31:020:31:06

Parliament. At the noble lord looks

at the record, he will find this

0:31:060:31:11

Parliament has legislated for the

Scottish Parliament to a

0:31:110:31:14

considerable degree. Mainly because

they've only saw for one and a half

0:31:140:31:18

days a week until recently in

legislation and haven't had time to

0:31:180:31:20

do that. Now we are in the absurd

position where the posturing of

0:31:200:31:27

Ministers when a perfectly sensible

accommodation has been offered by

0:31:270:31:31

the United Kingdom Parliament...

It's about trying to create division

0:31:310:31:38

and turn everything into a

constitutional crisis. It's against

0:31:380:31:41

the interests of having a single

market. Single market which they say

0:31:410:31:44

is essential to the Scottish

economy. Their position is that they

0:31:440:31:51

don't want any of these... To come

to Wales or Scotland or to the

0:31:510:31:58

United Kingdom. They wish it to

remain in Brussels. It is an utterly

0:31:580:32:02

hypocritical stance. They would

rather this is decided in

0:32:020:32:09

Brussels... This is political

gamesmanship and we are foolish if

0:32:090:32:15

we accede to it. Why we should do is

proceed with the Bill unamended and

0:32:150:32:21

ensure that the United Kingdom

government can work with the

0:32:210:32:25

Parliaments of the various parts of

the United Kingdom to preserve that

0:32:250:32:29

single market which incidentally is

worth four times as much to the

0:32:290:32:33

people of Scotland in terms of

income and jobs and everything else

0:32:330:32:37

in the single market that they

report to defend which is that of

0:32:370:32:41

the European Union. This is a lot of

heat and waffle perpetrated by

0:32:410:32:49

people who don't like the results of

the referendum and two her terribly

0:32:490:32:55

keen on referendums but find it

difficult to accept the results of

0:32:550:32:57

referendums. The argument we have to

have another referendum on

0:32:570:33:02

independence, another referendum on

Europe, I do say to the noble lord

0:33:020:33:06

who is normally very courteous, to

the noble lord who is normally very

0:33:060:33:09

courteous, too described in the

terms that he did the 17 part 4

0:33:090:33:12

million people who to leave in the

United Kingdom. 400,000 of them were

0:33:120:33:21

Scottish Nationalists. To describe

them and us pejorative terms I think

0:33:210:33:24

he is following the course of his

leader who use disgraceful language

0:33:240:33:28

to insult the 17.4 VM people only

this week. I hope the House will

0:33:280:33:37

reject these moments and we can get

on with the task of making a success

0:33:370:33:40

of United Kingdom which at last has

the powers and authority to ensure

0:33:400:33:43

that all parts of our country

benefit from being able to determine

0:33:430:33:48

our own affairs.

I'm most grateful

to my noble friend. It was very

0:33:480:33:56

interesting speech that he gave but

it doesn't seem to bear any relation

0:33:560:33:58

to the amendments that are before

the House this evening. I think the

0:33:580:34:02

amendments go to the heart of

obtaining the consent of the

0:34:020:34:07

Scottish people as expressed through

the Scottish Parliament. He is a

0:34:070:34:12

Democrat and I am a Democrat. Does

he not agree that the amendments go

0:34:120:34:16

to the heart of devolution and that

is what we are trying to maintain in

0:34:160:34:21

particular, the amendments that Lord

Hope has moved this evening?

If the

0:34:210:34:26

noble lady would like me to repeat

my speech again when she is

0:34:260:34:29

listening then I will happily do so

but I don't think... When she says a

0:34:290:34:36

ghost heart of democracy, these are

matters for the night kingdom

0:34:360:34:38

Parliament. There is no veto for any

of the devolved administrations.

0:34:380:34:45

We've debated endlessly. This moment

would give a veto. It would mean

0:34:450:34:50

that the tail was wagging the dog.

It would mean that the Scottish

0:34:500:34:54

Parliament could prevent what was in

the interests of the rest of the

0:34:540:34:57

United Kingdom. That is not

democracy. The noble lady needs to

0:34:570:35:02

address the words on the order

paper, the words of the amendment

0:35:020:35:06

and listen to the arguments instead

of pursuing her ideological

0:35:060:35:10

determination to reverse the

decision of the British people.

I

0:35:100:35:16

hope very much that the speech made

by the global Lord will be reported

0:35:160:35:21

loud and clearly in Scotland. I have

no doubt there will only be one set

0:35:210:35:26

of winners coming from that. The

whole of the last debate in this

0:35:260:35:29

debate has centred around the

question of trust. I'm not sure

0:35:290:35:32

whether comments we have just heard

are going to help create that trust

0:35:320:35:36

in future. Lord Forsyth said that

his friends and Scotland were

0:35:360:35:43

ignoring the English single market

while building up the European

0:35:430:35:46

single market. But the European

single market includes the UK single

0:35:460:35:51

market. It is one single market.

It's a bigger one. Those were

0:35:510:35:55

looking to that single market are

looking outward, not just in word

0:35:550:35:59

and are restricting their boundaries

just around the coasts of these

0:35:590:36:03

islands.

I said no such thing. I

said that the single market which is

0:36:030:36:10

the European market is a quarter of

the size of the single market which

0:36:100:36:13

is the United Kingdom for Scotland.

It may well be but the European

0:36:130:36:18

single market includes England at

this point in time. In other words,

0:36:180:36:21

they are not losing anything. The

main point is a point made by Lord

0:36:210:36:26

Thomas with regard to resources.

If

you're asked to trust up by giving a

0:36:260:36:32

veto to Westminster into the UK

Government which essentially is

0:36:320:36:38

what's coming through in a number of

these clauses whether David O will

0:36:380:36:40

be used at all and anyway, the power

to impose policies in areas that

0:36:400:36:46

have been that clearly is

0:36:460:36:54

was at we've had experience as the

noble lord mentioned of regional

0:36:540:36:58

policy.

The Baroness will remember.

The problem is that we had in the

0:36:580:37:07

early days. I'm getting Westminster

and Whitehall to pass over money

0:37:070:37:12

that is coming for Wales and not

falling into the Treasury in London.

0:37:120:37:17

It wasn't until Mr Barnier

intervened with the then Chancellor

0:37:170:37:21

Gordon Brown, then a £442 billion

was passed over to Wales and it was

0:37:210:37:30

held back and Whitehall in the

Treasury. And that is the background

0:37:300:37:33

of trust that we have. If we are

going to build a future of trusses I

0:37:330:37:37

want to see happen between the

nations of this Islands. It has to

0:37:370:37:40

be recognition that in some areas,

though leadership is coming from

0:37:400:37:46

crumbled regime. In other areas,

responsibility lies here. There will

0:37:460:37:52

be grey areas, but we have to make

sure that there was a mechanism that

0:37:520:37:55

respects each other for sorting out

those grey areas. And the attention

0:37:550:38:00

is not given to that side of the

argument. If we can concentrate on

0:38:000:38:03

that, I believe that amendment moved

by Lord Hall. If you could consider

0:38:030:38:14

their request -- Lord Hope. To

respond to his proposal in this

0:38:140:38:20

context as a way of showing goodwill

towards getting some understanding

0:38:200:38:24

of the other context will be coming

onto, then perhaps can start make

0:38:240:38:27

some progress. And I asked him noble

lord and Minister to invite those

0:38:270:38:31

who are interested in those matters

to meet the try to get some proposal

0:38:310:38:36

coming from here that could at least

go some way towards answering the

0:38:360:38:40

problems that are being felt in

Cardiff and Edinburgh. This is an

0:38:400:38:45

insoluble. But goodwill that it

isn't always Avenue -- evident here.

0:38:450:38:53

Two of the amendments are removed

some time ago now. -- that were

0:38:530:38:59

moved sometime. I should first

declare that I am a member of the

0:38:590:39:05

commission. And that commission was

mentioned and funding to Wales has

0:39:050:39:11

indeed been a concern. With regard

to these amendments in the core

0:39:110:39:13

issue of trust. It comes to mind

that there was a wise saying, trust

0:39:130:39:19

arise on foot and leaves on

horseback. It seems as if we'd had a

0:39:190:39:25

few galloping horses in this chamber

this evening. We do have to look

0:39:250:39:28

forward. In the new world that we

will face after Brexit, which will

0:39:280:39:33

not be easy, nobody is now

pretending that it will be easy. We

0:39:330:39:38

do need to be a United Kingdom, and

we do need to pull together. I do

0:39:380:39:44

hope that the Minister, given his

remarks to the previous group of the

0:39:440:39:48

members -- amendments. That he

intimated that he's that sincerely

0:39:480:39:54

want to bring parties together, and

have some restoration of trust and

0:39:540:39:59

some resolution of working with

forward, that he will be able to

0:39:590:40:02

work with others to achieve that.

And that he will give serious

0:40:020:40:08

consideration to these amendments,

because there were not put down to

0:40:080:40:10

divide, they were put down, with a

view to try to establish a degree of

0:40:100:40:18

reconciliation restored trust and to

find working with forward.

If I can

0:40:180:40:26

deny usually ebullient self with

particular point. Thus I if I can

0:40:260:40:30

be. I admit I being of washing

extraction, having a Welsh speaking

0:40:300:40:36

father. You spoke entirely from the

point of view of someone who has

0:40:360:40:42

been Bruce. I would be on the side

being bruised, by the activities, of

0:40:420:40:53

the Scottish Nationalists. But

actually I do think that there is

0:40:530:40:57

here a debate. A debate which is not

about, ... There is a debate about

0:40:570:41:06

trust. And I do say to my honourable

friend, to say we could all work

0:41:060:41:12

when this government, a coalition

government, a labour government

0:41:120:41:21

can't continue this utterly unfair

system of the Barnier formula that

0:41:210:41:26

has done such damage to Wales. And

label government retained as the

0:41:260:41:34

noble lord retained, large sums of

money rather than pass it on in the

0:41:340:41:38

system in which -- which were

previously had. My noble friend

0:41:380:41:43

knows very well that I believe in a

single market. I don't have the

0:41:430:41:53

view. I look for a single market

that continues with the whole of

0:41:530:41:57

Europe. Which is of course, is of

great benefit to all of us. And I am

0:41:570:42:02

sad that he should try to remove it

from us. But I don't think that it

0:42:020:42:06

helps in this debate to not to face

the issue of very, very considerable

0:42:060:42:15

lack of trust. In both Scotland and

Wales, there is a history of not,

0:42:150:42:27

getting except almost only by force,

a fair share. Scotland has now

0:42:270:42:34

managed to get its Avenue position

that we now feel is the opposite.

0:42:340:42:38

That's how the Barnier formula

works. I think it would be good for

0:42:380:42:44

the Government of Scotland to

occasionally recognise what a

0:42:440:42:48

favourable position history has

printed. But because of the way

0:42:480:42:52

these amendments are drawn and

indeed put together, I would've like

0:42:520:42:56

this House to fail to recognise the

specific and particular position of

0:42:560:43:03

Wales. Not least because of the

specialist position in which the

0:43:030:43:08

North of Ireland have managed to get

themselves for political reasons,

0:43:080:43:14

and the historic position in which

Scotland is in now. It's merely to

0:43:140:43:22

say to my noble friend the Minister

for whom have enormous respect, and

0:43:220:43:28

if I may say so his last speech in

summing up was an exemplary one show

0:43:280:43:33

out government can deal with issues

in a way which at least makes a

0:43:330:43:37

house feel that it is listened to,

and I'd like to thank you for that,

0:43:370:43:43

it was a very very different us.

There is a real feeling among people

0:43:430:43:49

in Wales that history doesn't help

people believe that the United

0:43:490:43:56

Kingdom government is going to be

entirely evenhanded in this issue.

0:43:560:44:00

Therefore, is there way in which in

this of withdrawal bill, where up

0:44:000:44:08

Wales has benefited very

significantly for its membership in

0:44:080:44:11

the European Union, if that is being

taken away, is that her way in which

0:44:110:44:15

the Government can at least give

greater confidence to Wales, because

0:44:150:44:21

if it doesn't I fear that the

ability to come to a compromise will

0:44:210:44:28

be very, very, considerably made

considerably more difficult. The

0:44:280:44:33

point I want to make, I do fear my

noble friend cup was partisan in a

0:44:330:44:43

way in which it concentrated only on

Scotland. He was kind enough to say

0:44:430:44:48

he knew about Wales. And I do about

Wales. Let me just say, could you

0:44:480:44:55

please give us more confidence and

if my noble friend who's all

0:44:550:45:03

named... I would very much like him

to give us a feeling that this

0:45:030:45:07

government will in some way find a

matter in which this is not

0:45:070:45:10

appropriate to give confidence

within this bill.

Viler is a

0:45:100:45:17

cosignature to the amendment. Let me

make a few points. To the record.

0:45:170:45:26

The Lord Hope of Craighead. He

said... There is a liberal Democrat

0:45:260:45:36

coalition has got his start

government that's an important

0:45:360:45:38

difference. -- in the Scottish

Government. But the memorandum of

0:45:380:45:50

understanding between the United

kingdom government and Scottish

0:45:500:45:56

Government foot. My experience in

the time,, I don't actually remember

0:45:560:46:02

any issue when there was any major

dispute. It's also fair to say. It

0:46:020:46:12

got very technical indeed since the

Scottish National Party,. Whole

0:46:120:46:22

range of technical issues, to

actually get some common-sense

0:46:220:46:24

agreement. That's what I do think,

we should persevere and try to that.

0:46:240:46:28

The point made by the Lady Byron is

Finley, the point underlying those

0:46:280:46:33

amendments, an effort tube building

blocks for trust. I want to repeat

0:46:330:46:38

what the point was made in a

previous debate. I want to say the

0:46:380:46:42

noble lord, that of very much

appreciate his response, Apple

0:46:420:46:49

responsive, cover has a response. He

did talk about allowing some veto

0:46:490:46:54

areas. Some modifications to the

couple night, I don't get anything I

0:46:540:47:03

said with getting those

applications. You wanted... I do

0:47:030:47:10

think that there is something we can

build on there.

I share low

0:47:100:47:20

dividends's admiration and the way

he responded to it. I thought he was

0:47:200:47:26

a rather brilliant performer of the

work of the fire extinguisher. There

0:47:260:47:33

was a moment spread over all of us.

And calm ensued. It was a brilliant

0:47:330:47:42

performance. I am sorry that this

time he has to deal with that sort

0:47:420:47:49

of pyrotechnics pyromaniac. Lord

Forsyth of Drumlean, I have always

0:47:490:48:03

thought it was rather a pity that

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean's attacks

0:48:030:48:10

on the party now governing Scotland

are responded to only by a Welshman.

0:48:100:48:21

Responded very well, but personally

as a Scotsman who does not support

0:48:210:48:27

the Scottish National Party, it

seems to me as rather easy trick to

0:48:270:48:32

score pyrotechnical victories

against an opponent who is not in

0:48:320:48:37

the room. I do feel also, that trust

is what this is all about. I can see

0:48:370:48:46

nothing wrong with this amendment. I

cannot see any reason why Ministers

0:48:460:48:52

should end by this amendment now. If

the cats, a discussion needs to

0:48:520:48:59

start and it seems to me that that

the party in office -- to install

0:48:590:49:13

the party in mode in office in

Edinburgh, maybe their motives,

0:49:130:49:19

maybe not the motives of the explain

with a published a perfectly

0:49:190:49:24

reasonable economic analysis at the

end of last year, which established,

0:49:240:49:31

I thought it established, very

clearly that damage would create a

0:49:310:49:37

Scotland from leaving the SIngle

Market. And the scale of the damage

0:49:370:49:40

was almost exactly the same as we

have now seen in the Treasury

0:49:400:49:45

analysis for the United Kingdom as a

whole. The same numbers pop up in

0:49:450:49:53

both studies. The Scots, they're not

being unreasonable or unnecessarily

0:49:530:50:00

malicious. When they say that they

prefer, they would prefer to remain

0:50:000:50:07

in the SIngle Market. Of course, the

market of the United Kingdom is more

0:50:070:50:12

important to Scotland than a market

of the rest of Europe that's not the

0:50:120:50:15

point. They don't want to have to

choose. And that seems to me to be

0:50:150:50:22

fairly reasonable position to adopt.

And I really don't think it helps

0:50:220:50:27

establish trust to insult them.

I

had no intention to speak. I want to

0:50:270:50:39

entirely indoors with the noble lord

said in moving this. I would also

0:50:390:50:47

like to refute any allegations that

I am an ideologue. I always

0:50:470:50:53

considered myself to be a prime at

this. I think it's also very unfair

0:50:530:50:57

to impute a position on a party that

is not represented in this House and

0:50:570:51:04

cannot answer back any of the

allegations that were made

0:51:040:51:06

previously. I believe that this

whole amendment goes to the heart of

0:51:060:51:13

consent and trust that has been

debated here at great length. I

0:51:130:51:16

think I should also declare that I

do have a vested interest in these

0:51:160:51:20

matters because I'm doing some work,

I visited the officers that Lord

0:51:200:51:25

Forsyth of Drumlean open, the water

commission for Scotland, is doing

0:51:250:51:33

some great work across the European

Union as indeed the Scottish --

0:51:330:51:37

Scottish water and providing us it

runs that -- assistance. Hopefully

0:51:370:51:42

that continues after Brexit day. I

do not see that this is moved or

0:51:420:51:48

spoken to by Lord Hope or any of the

other honourable members. This is

0:51:480:51:54

simply an effort to bring the

Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish

0:51:540:52:00

with the Government.

0:52:000:52:06

Good think the noble lord took

participated in the debate on this

0:52:060:52:12

group of amendments. In particular

think Lord Hope and the noble lady

0:52:120:52:17

for moving the amendment. I will

seek to deal with the substance of

0:52:170:52:23

this and try to pick up very briefly

some of the points that were made in

0:52:230:52:27

debate. Amendments 102, 120... Seek

to place requirement for UK

0:52:270:52:35

Ministers to the consent of all

Ministers when using clause 71 which

0:52:350:52:39

I think probably want arise now but

I'm happy to discuss that further

0:52:390:52:42

beach-side think we would have

exhausted that by ringing the

0:52:420:52:45

proposals forward our report. In

areas of devolved competence. I

0:52:450:52:54

should stress that the concurrent

powers in this bill do not in any

0:52:540:53:00

way undermine the devolution

settlements. They get the UK

0:53:000:53:03

Government and the devolved

administration the tools required to

0:53:030:53:06

respond to it is a shared challenge

of ensuring the functioning of our

0:53:060:53:11

statute book and a pragmatic and

collaborative manner which reflects

0:53:110:53:13

current practise and I stress has

been the norm for some time. I think

0:53:130:53:18

I made this point and the last group

of amendments. An example of this

0:53:180:53:23

can be found at the new schedule

three A in the Government of Wales

0:53:230:53:27

act 2006 which lists no less than 34

laws containing current functions

0:53:270:53:33

for United Kingdom and Welsh

Ministers including powers to make

0:53:330:53:37

subordinate legislation. I should

also highlight section two of the

0:53:370:53:42

European Communities Act 1972 itself

which is concurrent and has

0:53:420:53:45

routinely been used to make a single

second of regulations to implement

0:53:450:53:51

directives... Take for example the

marine Works environmental impact

0:53:510:53:55

assessments regulations 2007. If a

deficiency arises within the

0:53:550:54:03

statutory instrument we all agree on

the best way to correct it, it makes

0:54:030:54:08

little sense for demonstrations to

make poor sets up... This is of

0:54:080:54:13

course compounded by the volume of

legislation that will be needed in

0:54:130:54:17

this House and did deed and the

default legislators to ensure the

0:54:170:54:22

proper functioning of our laws after

exit day. Our approach in this bill

0:54:220:54:26

is to mirror that effect and can can

you working clapboard of Lee with

0:54:260:54:31

default administrations which is

certainly the norm full stop to

0:54:310:54:33

ensure that our statute book is

fully functioning on exit. This is

0:54:330:54:37

not been a cause of conflict in the

past. There is certainly been

0:54:370:54:41

differences. Few and far between. We

do not leave it to be a cause of

0:54:410:54:46

conflict and the future. We cannot

compromise the flexibility provided

0:54:460:54:51

for by the concurrent power that

allows us and that devolved

0:54:510:54:54

demonstrations to benefit from

shared working. This is crucial for

0:54:540:54:57

us to make it considerable task that

lies ahead in order to complete,

0:54:570:55:02

functioning statute book on exit

day. May I remind noble Lords of the

0:55:020:55:06

clear commitment the Government has

made that we will not normally use

0:55:060:55:09

the powers in this way without the

agreement of the devolved

0:55:090:55:12

administrations. Happy to restate

that. It's there in black and white

0:55:120:55:16

in the delegated powers memorandum

and in written evidence to the

0:55:160:55:21

Constitution committee. I've

repeated it here today. I do take

0:55:210:55:24

serious note about my noble friend

Lord MacKay suggested about the

0:55:240:55:32

possibility of a memorandum of

understanding and I would like to

0:55:320:55:35

take that away and have a look at

that. Noble lords have asked why

0:55:350:55:40

such a commitment is not involved on

the face of the Bill and I would be

0:55:400:55:44

happy to look at this with them.

There can be no doubt the commitment

0:55:440:55:53

the Government has made to seek the

agreement of the devolved

0:55:530:55:58

administration on these matters. I

hope that does offer some

0:55:580:56:01

reassurance. If I can pick up once

made by noble lords during the

0:56:010:56:04

debate. Thanking the noble lord Hope

for the constructive ways that he is

0:56:040:56:10

moved the set of amendments and

indicate I'm happy to talk about

0:56:100:56:15

this further ahead of research. The

bank the noble lady baroness. I

0:56:150:56:23

understand her seeking the best

interest for Northern Ireland and

0:56:230:56:25

they must be treated and precisely

the same way. For his suggestion

0:56:250:56:35

about the memorandum of

understanding which I would like to

0:56:350:56:37

take away and looked out further.

The noble lord Thomas very

0:56:370:56:43

far-reaching and points of Barnett

which certainly we made some headway

0:56:430:56:50

on this when I was in the Assembly.

Not because I was in the Assembly

0:56:500:56:54

but I do remember some headway being

made on that. It's an issue that is

0:56:540:56:57

still there. Far beyond this bellow.

Let alone this amendment. He made

0:56:570:57:06

the serious point as did others

about the importance of trust which

0:57:060:57:09

I take very seriously. I think the

noble lady. I think trust is

0:57:090:57:14

something that is important. We do

need to build. My noble friend of

0:57:140:57:20

his most deadly when he is seeking

the praise me. Bound to take that

0:57:200:57:28

and agree with them so I thank him

very much indeed for his kind

0:57:280:57:31

comments. He does speak with

authority and with understanding

0:57:310:57:35

particularly of Wales and once

again, of the importance of trust.

0:57:350:57:40

Again, I think the point made by

Lord Kerr of the importance of that

0:57:400:57:47

in our discussions and we can

discuss this further. I think Lord

0:57:470:57:52

Wallace for clarifying the point.

I'm sorry if I did... I take the

0:57:520:57:56

point. Lord Forsyth make some very

serious points about the dangers of

0:57:560:58:07

the unintended consequences of

legislation and we do have to be

0:58:070:58:12

careful about. I take that point.

That said, I think there are serious

0:58:120:58:16

issues as my noble friend Baroness

McIntosh also reminded us of the

0:58:160:58:21

importance of building up trust. She

reminded us of how we all have

0:58:210:58:25

interests in different parts of the

country. It isn't as if we are not

0:58:250:58:30

talking about a union that mean

something. We all have relations,

0:58:300:58:34

friends and interests in different

parts of our country. We have shared

0:58:340:58:37

interest in getting this right. I'm

happy to go way and report with the

0:58:370:58:46

suggestion Lord Wigley made about

engaging. I'm happy to do just that

0:58:460:58:49

along with officials to see if we

can't move it perhaps in the

0:58:490:58:54

direction of the member and note of

understanding which was a point I

0:58:540:58:58

think was validly made by my noble

and learned friend. I would in the

0:58:580:59:11

meantime asked noble lords if they

would perhaps withdraw their

0:59:110:59:14

amendments.

I would like to join in

the general complements to the noble

0:59:140:59:20

lord Prime Minister and thank him

very much for his courteous and

0:59:200:59:25

detailed replies this evening and

indeed for the Commandments to

0:59:250:59:27

engage further with noble lords

before report stage. We will no

0:59:270:59:32

doubt return to many of these issues

are clause 11 committee stage and no

0:59:320:59:36

doubt return again to these issues

during report but in the meantime I

0:59:360:59:41

beg leave to withdraw my amendments.

Amendment by leave with John.

0:59:410:59:49

Commitment 102. -- with John.

Perhaps I am in a position to move

0:59:490:59:59

amendment 102. I'm going to a chart

I should say. -- withdraw. First of

0:59:591:00:06

all I must thank all noble lords who

spoke in this rather... Particularly

1:00:061:00:13

the noble lord, the Minister for his

helpful way responding. I do

1:00:131:00:18

apologise to Lord Wallace for my

lapse of memory. He was absolutely

1:00:181:00:24

right. I reject Lord Forsyth's

criticism that I am being naive. He

1:00:241:00:31

amendment which I was purposing I

believe had cross party support in

1:00:311:00:35

Edinburgh. It is all about the

question of trust. If I picked up

1:00:351:00:43

the noble lord, the Minister

correctly. We're in the same

1:00:431:00:46

position of clause seven as we were

in the previous group because in

1:00:461:00:49

effect, he's going to the cost seven

problem will be exhausted and

1:00:491:00:53

therefore there is nothing to be

lost Ike going ahead and putting in

1:00:531:00:57

the same thing he is prepared to put

in about the Parliament. There is a

1:00:571:01:02

serious issue about cause aids which

I think would benefit from further

1:01:021:01:06

discussion but that's perhaps for

another day. Really on the basis

1:01:061:01:10

that we can stop talk about it, I

think the proper thing for me to do

1:01:101:01:14

is to which all the amendment. --

with draw.

Amendment by leave with

1:01:141:01:20

John. The Bush with John.

1:01:201:01:24

This about frontier controls.

Between the UK and the EU after

1:01:331:01:39

Brexit. India moment would require

Ministers to report to Parliament

1:01:391:01:46

how any new procedures can be

fermented with ever-increasing

1:01:461:01:49

delays and costs. It's a very

serious issue. I do regret there is

1:01:491:01:55

no separate bill so far on this as

we have are ready been discussing

1:01:551:02:00

the regulations bill. I think it

would be a useful forum for doing

1:02:001:02:06

it. Here we are tonight. Ministers

have stated time and time again and

1:02:061:02:13

there will be no border control

between the Republic and Northern

1:02:131:02:15

Ireland and I think they are rightly

say it. Also told the commission

1:02:151:02:20

that date don't want to remain in

the single market and the commission

1:02:201:02:25

has taken this into account and it's

dropped withdrawal agreement. To a

1:02:251:02:35

simple mind like me, since the

Republic will stay and eat you and

1:02:351:02:41

the UK does not and since the

Government insists we cannot remain

1:02:411:02:43

in the single market then there has

to be some kind of a frontier

1:02:431:02:47

between the Republic and the United

Kingdom. Whether that's between the

1:02:471:02:52

north and the South of Ireland or

down the Irish Sea is debated many

1:02:521:02:57

times but I can't see how a campy

fudged or cherry picked. The volumes

1:02:571:03:04

of traffic between the UK and the EU

are absolutely huge. The unitized

1:03:041:03:16

freight, import and export of 67

million tonnes in 2016 of which 14

1:03:161:03:21

million are temperature controlled.

A number of customs declarations in

1:03:211:03:27

2015 were 55 million UK ones and

their due to multiply by five after

1:03:271:03:34

Brexit. They all have to be checked

and controlled somewhere and can I

1:03:341:03:41

ask, can these be done

electronically? The British ports

1:03:411:03:47

Association has said one of the

biggest challenges the ports phase

1:03:471:03:53

is accommodating the new health

standard inspections of the borders.

1:03:531:03:56

Which obviously will cost more money

and time if it goes wrong. There is

1:03:561:04:02

3000 trucks a day estimated to be

carrying temperature control traffic

1:04:021:04:09

which might be checking for the

environmental health standards. I

1:04:091:04:14

have a couple of interesting

examples which have actually come

1:04:141:04:19

from the Irish exporters association

which seem to be more open with

1:04:191:04:24

ideas than people on this side of

the frontier. A lot of people have

1:04:241:04:29

talked about the benefits of the EU,

Canadian free-trade agreement. One

1:04:291:04:37

of the issues they found their is

that the need to track the

1:04:371:04:44

compliance of pallets used to carry

the product within the container

1:04:441:04:48

with the standard... If the load is

found to have one noncertified

1:04:481:04:54

pallets or 19 certified valid, the

whole lot is sent back to the

1:04:541:05:01

sender. I think that will cause

chaos. One has to question what

1:05:011:05:08

proportion of trucks would need

checking. The UK won't say. I have

1:05:081:05:14

hardly any information from the

Government. The Irish news says six

1:05:141:05:18

to 8% will need paperwork checked

and some visual inspections at the

1:05:181:05:23

frontiers. Which roughly looks like

1000 trucks a day to me in addition

1:05:231:05:28

to the temperature controlled. They

government says... My lords, I think

1:05:281:05:37

there is a real problem. If the UK

is not in the single market and the

1:05:371:05:45

Republic is, there has got to be

some control somewhere. I think it's

1:05:451:05:49

a great shame that we don't have

representatives of Sinn Fein in the

1:05:491:05:55

lordships House to give a wider view

of other problems are in Northern

1:05:551:05:58

Ireland. Rather like the noble

baroness regretted the lack of SNP

1:05:581:06:04

members here to have a good debate

about it. My lords, what is the

1:06:041:06:11

Government doing about this in terms

of IT systems because the tax

1:06:111:06:15

commentator Richard Murphy reported

85 IT systems at UK borders of which

1:06:151:06:23

30 will need to be replaced or

changed. I don't think I need to go

1:06:231:06:28

into detail IT systems we have had.

There is little evidence the Home

1:06:281:06:39

Office or the customs will be able

to have a system up and running. It

1:06:391:06:48

may take many, many years.

1:06:481:06:52

A word about railfreight and I

declare an interest in the

1:06:521:06:58

railfreight group, the problem is

the same but there an easier

1:06:581:07:01

solution which is to do the controls

at the inland terminals that exist

1:07:011:07:05

the security perspective. That would

be fine and discussions are

1:07:051:07:10

continuing but the authorities are

trying to make it as difficult as

1:07:101:07:14

possible, they will do security but

nothing else, and I hope that the

1:07:141:07:18

minister may be able to encourage

this along because it is an obvious

1:07:181:07:22

allusion to avoiding queues at the

front for

1:07:221:07:25

allusion to avoiding queues at the

front for. There is a ray of light,

1:07:251:07:30

the chartered Institute of Logistics

and transport, and I'm the vice

1:07:301:07:35

president, so I declare an interest

in the Bay have been working hard

1:07:351:07:38

with the industry and part of

government to develop what is called

1:07:381:07:43

an authorised operator status and

this could work very well if only

1:07:431:07:48

they could get some real bar in from

the other departments that will be

1:07:481:07:52

involved. Because it does mean that

there may be a way of getting

1:07:521:07:58

through frontiers without stopping

for those cargoes that qualify. The

1:07:581:08:04

other issue they raise is that of

self certification because HMRC

1:08:041:08:15

accept 's DAT self certification but

not regarding duty payments, so

1:08:151:08:24

maybe the minister could not get

that because it is also important

1:08:241:08:27

bash VAT.

1:08:271:08:28

The other issue is to do with

taxation, we have the taxation

1:08:311:08:35

cross-border trade bill which has

come to your lordship's house yet.

1:08:351:08:38

-- hasn't. It is very long 156

pages, I think, and rather more in

1:08:381:08:46

other documents, but there are a

couple of issues which have been

1:08:461:08:51

raised, the value of chargeable

goods and the other is something

1:08:511:08:56

called preferential origin, and I

won't go into those tonight, my

1:08:561:09:02

lords, you will be glad to hear, but

I'm worried about the delay in this

1:09:021:09:07

taxation Bill and therefore the

consequent inability for the

1:09:071:09:12

industry to plan these important tax

issues which may come next year, if

1:09:121:09:21

we have a longer period to do it, so

much the better, but we have to be

1:09:211:09:28

prepared. There are reasons for this

amendment, but I do hope that the

1:09:281:09:34

government can accept the need to

produce a detailed and complex full

1:09:341:09:40

report on how these frontier

procedures can be implemented and

1:09:401:09:45

keep to the costs and the programme.

Because there is very little

1:09:451:09:51

information at the moment. It is the

government's problem and they have

1:09:511:09:55

got to sort it out but I do hope

that the government will integrate

1:09:551:10:00

and work closely with the industry

and maybe even arrange some more

1:10:001:10:05

meetings before the report stage so

this can be discussed further. I beg

1:10:051:10:08

to move.

A member proposed, the

words are printed in the list. --

1:10:081:10:20

amendment proposed the logistics

industry

dominates our retailing and

1:10:201:10:27

most sophisticated industries like

the motor industry, and to organise

1:10:271:10:34

themselves on the multisite basis.

When we buy something in most shops

1:10:341:10:40

we start a process which means that

our purchase will trigger the order

1:10:401:10:43

for a replacement, stretching back

to the manufacturer or supplier.

1:10:431:10:51

This arrangement has become very

much more sophisticated since we

1:10:511:10:55

joined the EU 44 years ago. Supplies

of parts flow through a network as

1:10:551:11:04

complex as a spider's web,

throughout the community and beyond,

1:11:041:11:10

and that is what makes your orange

appear at breakfast or your new car

1:11:101:11:17

to come off the production line. We

are told in short terms by the

1:11:171:11:23

logistics industry and their

customers that the survival of this

1:11:231:11:28

system depends upon frictionless

trade -- we are told in shrill

1:11:281:11:34

terms. No stops at Borders and no

tariffs, they are the words of the

1:11:341:11:41

logistics industry, the Freight

Transport Association, and the

1:11:411:11:47

industry was tempted into a state of

complacency by the assurance of

1:11:471:11:51

ministers that this frictionless

trade would continue after March

1:11:511:11:59

2019, less than a year away. But

this complacency is swiftly turning

1:11:591:12:05

to panic as it becomes evident that

the assurances that are offered

1:12:051:12:10

concerning frictionless trade are

becoming less likely to be realised.

1:12:101:12:17

Trade deals even if these could be

negotiated seem very distant

1:12:171:12:23

prospect. Your orange at breakfast

has come from Spain, and the parts

1:12:231:12:31

to make and deliver your mini need

to arrive at Cowley every 20 minutes

1:12:311:12:36

for the production line to continue

otherwise it stops, and the prospect

1:12:361:12:41

of empty shelves in shops as we

witnessed only last week, the week

1:12:411:12:48

before, with the bad weather,

Wilbur, almost a certainty if there

1:12:481:12:55

is any interruption at ports or

similar points of entity -- entry

1:12:551:13:05

for the eye may suggest that

people's anger with those

1:13:051:13:08

politicians who have sold them a

false prospectus will be deep and

1:13:081:13:19

severe, and if people can't obtain

the groceries they have been

1:13:191:13:26

accustomed or if workers in

factories can't get a time critical

1:13:261:13:28

supply of spare parts and they are

laid off, there will be trouble. The

1:13:281:13:34

chance of protest in the streets as

these shortages become apparent

1:13:341:13:40

should be taken far more seriously

than the suggestion of unpopular

1:13:401:13:45

uprising if the concept of Brexit is

ultimately frustrated. The mantra

1:13:451:13:54

Europe needs us more than we need

them is perhaps best not put to the

1:13:541:13:59

test as there will be those who now

do business here, decided to seek

1:13:591:14:06

certainty of closer union with the

EU by moving their operations within

1:14:061:14:11

the border. The future of the

aircraft construction industry is a

1:14:111:14:19

example of that. The logistics

problem is very serious in respect

1:14:191:14:24

of Ireland to which Lord Berkeley

has referred, where a very large

1:14:241:14:30

amount of perishable material has

two transit via Great Britain on its

1:14:301:14:36

way to Europe, and if there are any

border checks necessary at Holyhead

1:14:361:14:43

or Dover, probably both, as things

stand, there will be very serious

1:14:431:14:51

implications for trade and it will

surely lead to the establishment of

1:14:511:14:56

direct ferry links between the

Republic and Europe to avoid using

1:14:561:15:03

those in Dover and other crossing

points. The government of the

1:15:031:15:09

Republic of Ireland is at this

moment giving serious consideration

1:15:091:15:13

to this possibility. Maybe those in

the logistics industry notably the

1:15:131:15:20

ports industry and the freighter and

the Association and the Road Haulage

1:15:201:15:29

Association, have kept quiet until

now because they have always trusted

1:15:291:15:32

and supported the party opposite and

have trusted the assurances of David

1:15:321:15:40

Davis and Liam Fox. But this

misplaced loyalty is about to be

1:15:401:15:46

tested possibly to the point where

these businesses will suffer

1:15:461:15:51

permanent damage. The purpose of

these amendments is to seek from the

1:15:511:15:58

government at this late stage the

humility to accept that the promises

1:15:581:16:02

about frictionless trade cannot be

delivered and bring back at report

1:16:021:16:09

stage a plan to keep Britain working

and supplied in the present

1:16:091:16:17

just-in-time way or to face the

possibility of defeat in this house.

1:16:171:16:21

At report stage. As the Freight

Transport Association has said, the

1:16:211:16:32

trial of acquisitions Bill to which

Lord Berkeley referred and which is

1:16:321:16:40

coming back to the house committee

stage next week, is not a viable

1:16:401:16:44

solution. As the Prime Minister said

last week we need certainty and I

1:16:441:16:50

submit to your lordship's house, we

are is far from that as ever. -- as.

1:16:501:17:00

I would like to build on what has

been said. 70% of the UK's food

1:17:001:17:06

imports by value are from the EU and

60-65% of the UK's agricultural

1:17:061:17:13

exports are to other member states,

and any risk of delays would put a

1:17:131:17:17

strain on our supply chain and raise

food prices, most probably. The

1:17:171:17:24

Channel Tunnel illustrates how

important timing is, 1.4 million

1:17:241:17:30

trucks and 2900 while freight trains

went through in 2014, transporting

1:17:301:17:38

approaching £100 billion worth of

goods between the UK and the

1:17:381:17:40

continent. Including almost £200

million of iron and steel and metal

1:17:401:17:45

products for Yorkshire and the

Humber. The time saved by using the

1:17:451:17:50

Channel Tunnel was the equivalent of

120 days in 2014, saving a lot of

1:17:501:17:55

money each crossing, so any delays,

any more customs checks would end

1:17:551:18:01

any financial projections and have

the downstream consequences. One of

1:18:011:18:06

the consequences of Brexit is the

huge complexity that it has caused

1:18:061:18:10

and these amendments are

highlighting the impact that will

1:18:101:18:14

have not just on the freight

industry but on us as the public

1:18:141:18:17

because the list of border

operations, safety and security,

1:18:171:18:22

environment and how, trade policy,

modern custom systems have got to

1:18:221:18:28

balance between providing the

security but also facilitating the

1:18:281:18:31

free flow of goods. 37 million

tonnes of trade in year passing

1:18:311:18:37

through Southampton alone including

more than a million containers, how

1:18:371:18:40

could you possibly inspect every

container? It would create delays

1:18:401:18:45

and blockages, and when you look at

the freighter and that goes between

1:18:451:18:49

in and out of the UK, 69% going to

the EU is lorry traffic, but non-EU,

1:18:491:18:56

99% is containers. If you look at

where it comes into the country,

1:18:561:19:03

huge proportions, 75-100% of annual

lorry traffic, the EU share, is to

1:19:031:19:11

Dover, the Channel Tunnel, Harwich

and Holyhead, this is where most of

1:19:111:19:15

it is going through and most of it

is going through to the EU semi

1:19:151:19:19

cannot possibly have any delays that

will make life more difficult for

1:19:191:19:23

our businesses -- so we cannot. The

requirement for food products are

1:19:231:19:28

just mentioned, then we will talk

about Ireland which has been

1:19:281:19:34

mentioned, and we will talk about

edge on sport later and rail in more

1:19:341:19:38

detail. -- air transport. The UK

will not be deemed a third country

1:19:381:19:46

until the end of any transition

period, if that exists, and even if

1:19:461:19:51

the UK were to remain in the customs

union it would still be a third

1:19:511:19:54

country and goods moving to and from

would be subject to checks.

1:19:541:19:58

Agriculture and police, freight

using the UK language would be

1:19:581:20:02

effectively it's the -- effectively

subject to nontariff barriers, this

1:20:021:20:11

is one disaster after another that

Brexit is going to cause, 2% of

1:20:111:20:17

cargo coming from third countries is

subject to physical exam and 4-6% of

1:20:171:20:23

such cargo is subject to documentary

checks but the Department of

1:20:231:20:27

agriculture is obliged to check up

to 50% of products that contain

1:20:271:20:33

fruit products within, and there is

100% check on animals including

1:20:331:20:36

pets. This is how complex the whole

area is. Revenue will prepare a list

1:20:361:20:44

of approved customs for use by

traders and traders will apply for

1:20:441:20:48

registration numbers. My Lord's this

would be absolutely disastrous and I

1:20:481:20:54

don't think people have comprehended

how difficult this is going to be.

1:20:541:21:00

The FDA that has been mentioned by

law Bradshaw, 50% of FDA members

1:21:001:21:07

operate more than 200,000 lorries,

half the UK fleet, they represent

1:21:071:21:11

90% of freight moved by rail, FTA

combined 70% of visible exports by

1:21:111:21:20

sea and 79% by air, they speak for

this industry. If we don't listen to

1:21:201:21:26

them that we are not listening to

the people who are doing this, my

1:21:261:21:30

Lord's, and how UK companies get

goods to the continent will be a

1:21:301:21:38

matter for negotiations but the

change to border controls and

1:21:381:21:42

Customs will affect our transport

efficiency, there is no denying

1:21:421:21:46

that, because at the moment we have

frictionless movement of goods to

1:21:461:21:49

and from the UK and unless a

solution can be agreed as a

1:21:491:21:54

free-trade agreement with the UK

moves outside the single market and

1:21:541:21:57

the customs union, that will change.

1:21:571:22:04

On top of the yet the immigration

checks that are now possibly going

1:22:041:22:07

to be there so you combined

immigration checks with all these

1:22:071:22:10

other checks, it's a disaster. Some

members of the FDA say that they

1:22:101:22:15

cross the border of four or five

times a day. Of course, the Irish

1:22:151:22:19

land bridge which I will come to.

The whole red tape is likely to

1:22:191:22:26

increase. Here we have brexiteer is

talking about EU red tape. This will

1:22:261:22:30

create red tape that you can dream

up. My lords, British manufacturers

1:22:301:22:35

from all over the country, to list

geographical origin of each

1:22:351:22:41

component or a gradient of finished

products, to specify how many

1:22:411:22:46

imported products were modified in

the UK. Can we start to imagine all

1:22:461:22:49

this? If we look at the FDA warning

a 15 mile queues at the border if

1:22:491:22:57

border checks are introduced after

Brexit, this I think should be a

1:22:571:23:00

wake-up call. Checks at Calle could

result of traffic queues of more

1:23:001:23:12

than 15 miles. The FDA is so

concerned about it it is created its

1:23:121:23:19

own ten point manifesto. The

gridlock that could be created at

1:23:191:23:25

Dover, the queues could be 30 miles

going towards London. Two points 6

1:23:251:23:31

million trucks cost to the ports

every gear and as I said, 1.6

1:23:311:23:36

million with the euro tunnel. On one

side of the euro tunnel we have an

1:23:361:23:42

area of outstanding beauty. How we

create infrastructure to be able to

1:23:421:23:45

do with all these properties? The

problem for business is not just the

1:23:451:23:50

prospect of terrorists as I say but

the disruption of the free flow of

1:23:501:23:54

goods. We only need to look back to

2015 when a French ferry worker

1:23:541:23:59

strike led to more than 7000 trucks

backed up the motorway as far as

1:23:591:24:03

Maidstone. With as many as 16,000

trucks using Dover, a potential

1:24:031:24:09

repeat of that would be absolutely

alarming. You're looking at stopping

1:24:091:24:14

the economy. Business lost £21

million of stock due to the traffic

1:24:141:24:18

chaos in 2015. Live shellfish which

was meant to go to Paris had to be

1:24:181:24:23

dumped. This is the sort of problem

we could be facing. Asked if you

1:24:231:24:30

would be ready for an introduction

of customs and two years, experts

1:24:301:24:34

have said, you make me laugh. UNE at

least doubled the number of customs

1:24:341:24:39

officials but you have now. They

will need to be recruited and

1:24:391:24:43

trained and that takes time. If

trucks coming from the age you are

1:24:431:24:48

treated like none EU, the ports will

be impermanent gridlock according to

1:24:481:24:53

local customs expert. With Brexit

this is the irony of it all, we are

1:24:531:24:57

potentially coming full circle,

returning to the pre-1993 system.

1:24:571:25:01

That is just going backwards, not

forwards. Agent, customs and freight

1:25:011:25:10

agents. What about the stuff they

will need to recruit? What about the

1:25:101:25:13

documentation? My lords, this is

absolutely awful. If big government

1:25:131:25:24

are able to implement a viable

system of checks, that would cost

1:25:241:25:27

traders a another £45. Currently,

none EU trucks take up to 20 minutes

1:25:271:25:36

to go to Dover. If we start doing

that for all our trucks, can you

1:25:361:25:40

imagine the disruption that will

cause. On top of this, Lori traffic

1:25:401:25:45

in Dover is increased by a third in

the past five years. If traffic is

1:25:451:25:49

increased and it is projected to

increase, how will be managed to do

1:25:491:25:55

with all those increases? These

amendments are really serious and

1:25:551:25:59

should be a top priority for the

Government. Two quick examples,

1:25:591:26:03

Honda UK. It relies on 350 trucks a

day of arriving from Europe to keep

1:26:031:26:08

its wind and factory operating with

just one hours worth of parts held

1:26:081:26:12

in the production line. I conclude

with the Islands British bridge to

1:26:121:26:19

European markets. Many Irish farmers

and fuel producers use Britain as a

1:26:191:26:24

time-saving flyover to get to

Europe. Dublin is seriously worried

1:26:241:26:27

about this. If they have to go

around, attorney from Dublin to the

1:26:271:26:34

continent would take ten hours. If

they have to go around without going

1:26:341:26:38

through Britain it will take 40

hours. Ireland would just not be

1:26:381:26:42

able to manage without. The Dublin

Port would just not be able to cope

1:26:421:26:46

with that. So my lords, the revenue

chairman in Ireland told the

1:26:461:26:51

committee in Ireland's Parliament

that customs and truck freight with

1:26:511:26:56

the one of the biggest challenges

post Brexit. I conclude with another

1:26:561:27:01

Irish quote. If you don't like

facing reality, this is the reality

1:27:011:27:05

I am talking about as a businessman

who imports and exports to Europe. I

1:27:051:27:10

will be affected, the consumers will

be affected so laugh as much as he

1:27:101:27:14

wants but this is the reality. Flynn

wanted the prospects of a deal. This

1:27:141:27:19

is the quote, we are all looking for

transition in terms of whatever

1:27:191:27:22

changes are required but effectively

omit if there's no likelihood of a

1:27:221:27:27

plan by October 2018 in terms of UK,

EU negotiations you will be without

1:27:271:27:32

a doubt going into a cliff edge

situation.

The noble lord Berkeley

1:27:321:27:39

has raised a very good point about

freight transport crossing the

1:27:391:27:45

border between the Republic of

Ireland and Northern Ireland. I

1:27:451:27:48

think it's a very legitimate issue

to raise and I hope the Government

1:27:481:27:51

listens. He is also identified that

this can be solved with modern IT.

1:27:511:27:58

But, what I would like to

particularly bring the House's

1:27:581:28:00

attention to is the reality of the

border in Northern Ireland. I was

1:28:001:28:05

working in the Northern Ireland

Office dust over three years ago and

1:28:051:28:08

I said to my office... They said, Mr

that's a bad thing. But I went. That

1:28:081:28:18

used to be referred to as bandit

country. Three and a half years ago

1:28:181:28:24

it certainly was still bandit

country. I was with a lot of police

1:28:241:28:28

and a helicopter overhead and the

police are still in fear of their

1:28:281:28:33

lives there because there are booby

traps and things laid for them. The

1:28:331:28:36

particular point I want to focus on

is the smuggling. We followed a

1:28:361:28:40

truck around one of the little lanes

from the Republic into the North.

1:28:401:28:47

Please said, I will be smuggling. We

saw the impact of smuggling diesel

1:28:471:28:53

because there are different duties.

Huge amounts of diesel imported from

1:28:531:28:57

the South to North. A lot of red

diesel which is then has the red

1:28:571:29:03

taken out of it which has a huge

environmental impact. There are

1:29:031:29:07

still different subsidies. Cattle

get smuggled back and forth across

1:29:071:29:12

the border because you can make a

lot of money if you smuggle stuff

1:29:121:29:15

across the border. There are customs

on the border. Not sitting and post

1:29:151:29:24

like they used to be. Not doing very

much it has to be said because there

1:29:241:29:28

is less to do since we were... I

would sate their art, I believe, 275

1:29:281:29:37

different crossing points between

the South and the North of Ireland.

1:29:371:29:41

On a border of some 305 miles. It

has never been possible between 1922

1:29:411:29:49

and 1972 to please everyone. During

the troubles and I was serving at

1:29:491:29:53

there for a bit, it was impossible

to stop the terrorists crossing the

1:29:531:29:57

border. We step out concrete blocks

across the border and it did not

1:29:571:30:02

work because people came across the

border. I would also remind noble

1:30:021:30:07

Lords that this is a different

currency unit. Ireland uses the euro

1:30:071:30:13

and we use the pound and people

manage quite easily to get past this

1:30:131:30:17

and they will manage in future as

well. When people say, the border in

1:30:171:30:22

Ireland is a huge problem. The

border in Ireland is only going to

1:30:221:30:26

be a problem woman leave the

European Union if people wish it to

1:30:261:30:29

be. It does not have to be in

goodwill on both sides and common

1:30:291:30:33

sense will show... For Northern

Ireland and the Republic of Ireland

1:30:331:30:42

to coexist quite happily and trade

between each other as they have been

1:30:421:30:45

doing before 1922 and since.

I

haven't spoken on this bill at all

1:30:451:30:59

yet.

I would like to intervene on

this issue. I've made a point of not

1:30:591:31:04

speaking. I want to raise one issue.

That's the issue of trusted trader

1:31:041:31:10

status. The Government have told us

that they intend to establish a

1:31:101:31:18

system on the Northern Ireland and

southern border of trusted status.

1:31:181:31:26

And there will be an exemption. And

exemption we are told what apply to

1:31:261:31:32

small and medium-size enterprises

involved in cross-border trade. In

1:31:321:31:37

the Government say it is possible to

manage the allegation that there

1:31:371:31:44

will be substantial fraud under such

a system. Where can we find a

1:31:441:31:51

definition of what constitutes a

small or medium-sized enterprise?

1:31:511:31:57

That's very important we know that

in advance. Secondly, do we know the

1:31:571:32:01

percentage of trade will fall under

that particular description?

1:32:011:32:09

Thirdly, when they talk about

managing fraud and managing a system

1:32:091:32:14

whereby there is an fraud, what kind

of management arrangements to they

1:32:141:32:19

intend to set in place to ensure

that fraud does not take place?

1:32:191:32:23

Finally, what will happen when it

actually comes to customs entries

1:32:231:32:28

for those firms that are not covered

I trusted trader status. Will do

1:32:281:32:37

clearance and entry arrangements for

those goods coming in over the

1:32:371:32:41

border actually be on the border

post? I presume if some businesses

1:32:411:32:47

of which are exempt then there must

be some actual control on the border

1:32:471:32:51

itself. I think these issues need to

be answered at a very early stage in

1:32:511:32:55

the procedure. I have truncated much

of what I wanted to say I wanted to

1:32:551:33:02

get that on the record.

My

intervention at this stage will be

1:33:021:33:10

extraordinarily brave. What I say

about amendment 104 which art and

1:33:101:33:16

the two consecutive groups. There is

a great deal of merit and requiring

1:33:161:33:22

these reports but, there is no

reason at all why they should be

1:33:221:33:29

linked to the initiation of the

regulations. That is slightly

1:33:291:33:34

misconceived. But I actually think

and if I may say to the noble lord

1:33:341:33:37

to put their names and indeed my

noble friend to par her name to the

1:33:371:33:41

amendment, they are lacking

ambition. What they should do is to

1:33:411:33:44

require these reports to be

published in any event before Brexit

1:33:441:33:48

date. Because this committee will

know later on in this debate we are

1:33:481:33:54

going to come to the point of

Parliamentary control and Parliament

1:33:541:33:58

can only exercise full control if it

is in possession of Fox and the fax

1:33:581:34:06

will be furnished by these reports.

So if I may say this to the noble

1:34:061:34:09

lord to put their names to this

amendment and to my noble friend,

1:34:091:34:13

yes of course you are right so far

as you have done it thus far,

1:34:131:34:18

linking it to the institutional

regulations. Come the report stage,

1:34:181:34:26

require these reports before Brexit

day. And my noble friend will...

My

1:34:261:34:40

lords, given transport's essential

role in supporting the UK economy,

1:34:401:34:44

transport issues should be giving

high priority by the Government in

1:34:441:34:49

this bill and other legislation

relating to Brexit. It does not seem

1:34:491:34:53

to have had that level of importance

attached to it. Amendment 104

1:34:531:35:01

requires that no regulations should

be laid that would amend UK, EU

1:35:011:35:06

border transport procedures unless

Ministers can demonstrate the new

1:35:061:35:11

procedures will not increase delays

to freight transport. I appreciate

1:35:111:35:17

the sentiments of my noble friend

and I do think that I will take his

1:35:171:35:27

comments under advisement for report

stage because as he says, this is

1:35:271:35:30

such an important issue. The time

sensitivity and mother and logistics

1:35:301:35:36

and UK supply chains means that

retaining a seamless supply chain

1:35:361:35:41

process is a significant economic

importance. Customs clearance as

1:35:411:35:47

well as passenger entry mechanisms

to the UK from the you including on

1:35:471:35:51

the Ireland of Ireland should be as

seamless as possible. If the UK

1:35:511:35:59

leaves the you, the current system

whereby all trucks can operate

1:35:591:36:02

through the EU on the basis of a

1-page document and without

1:36:021:36:07

requiring specific permits may well

not continue. UK based Rode haulage

1:36:071:36:16

businesses have benefited

considerably from the EU principles

1:36:161:36:18

of free movement which is meant that

UK lorries and their drivers can

1:36:181:36:22

cross borders and operate within

other parts of the EU. Governments

1:36:221:36:29

and statistics suggest that 85% of

the lorries operating between

1:36:291:36:33

Britain and the other 27 EU

countries are owned by businesses

1:36:331:36:43

and the other EU 27 countries rather

than the UK. In order for these

1:36:431:36:47

international commercial

arrangements to continue, if we

1:36:471:36:51

leave the EU, specific arrangements

are going to be required but have

1:36:511:36:58

not yet been negotiated. As far as I

am aware, this cannot be achieved

1:36:581:37:03

through our domestic legal system.

It is a separate issue to the

1:37:031:37:06

customs union and depends on access

in some form to the single market.

1:37:061:37:28