23/10/2017 Inside Out North East and Cumbria

In the next half an hour, dodgy dealing as we investigate

the classified ads website hijacked by criminals in Cumbria.

Do you smoke it yourself?

Yeah.

Can you tell the difference?

Meet the Sunderland entrepreneur whose online dating website targets

men looking for more than one wife.

Ten years from now it's not going to be a taboo any more.

So you were convinced there is a market out there.

100,000 people already signed up, of course it is.

And can Cumbria proudly proclaim to be a rainbow County?

People say, are you a poof?

I am married, I have two kids.

I'm Chris Jackson and this is Inside Out.

Now, what do you have the classified ads for?

Furniture or a new car?

Jonathan has been sniffing around in Cumbria where he investigates one

online site were criminals have an eye for more

than just a bargain.

As an investigative journalist it's sometimes easier to work

when the office is nice and quiet.

When people aren't watching what you're doing.

Like investigating the dark web.

If you're looking for something illegal, it's the go to part

of the Internet hidden from prying eyes.

The place where criminals using accepted websites and cryptic

currencies to treat.

You don't need to bother with all that?

I'm sorry?

You can get all that on Craigslist.

I'll show you.

Shouldn't you be getting on with this?

I've got ten minutes.

Brilliant.

Yes, Craigslist.

It was set up in America by a guy called Craig.

It's a website where people buy and sell everything,

and I mean everything.

Just say where you live and get started.

Lots of the stuff on craigslist won't be in the buy and sell

section of your local newspaper including bootleg tobacco.

The kind of cigarettes you would buy from some dodgy geezer outside

a pub or in this case a supermarket car park.

I've literally just started.

Are they knocked off?

They can't resell them in shops any more.

So where do you get them from?

OK.

So he's just a middle man.

He says his supplier is someone else on Craigslist.

I've seen some crazy stuff on craigslist.

So have I.

I'm on my way to another dodgy deal this time

on the outskirts of Carlisle.

It is counterfeit?

Yes.

And that's why his tobacco is just a third of the price

of the real stuff.

Do you smoke it yourself?

Yes.

Can you tell the difference?

I cannot tell.

But there's a difference because counterfeit goods are among

the things craigslist says you're not supposed to sell on its website.

Stuff that's illegal.

But no one takes any notice of that.

Do you mind?

But he's got a point.

Look at this.

It's as easy to find marijuana on craigslist

as it is a second-hand sofa.

And what I'm buying next could knock you off your feet.

I'm on a Derby estate meeting a dealer selling

cocaine on craigslist.

Ideal.

See you later.

Cheers.

The deal done in seconds but is it the real deal?

Turns out as street cocaine goes it's pretty pure stuff,

so what's it doing on craigslist?

I'm shocked it was there because it's not difficult

for the internet companies to be will to put things on their website

to police the stuff and they should be policing and taking it down.

But if you have made money from crime you wouldn't want

the police to find it.

What you need is someone to hide it, perhaps in their bank account.

It's called money laundering but where would I find

someone to do that?

On a street corner I'm meeting Stacey.

She is offering her bank account on craigslist to anyone

who wants to use it.

But we are walking into the bank to pay in what I have told

her is money made from crime.

She will charge me a fee to get it back and there are plenty of people

on craigslist offering to do the same thing, sometimes

through overseas bank accounts.

But if you have sent your money overseas how

are you going to get it back?

What you need is a new identity or somebody else's.

You again.

And I know just the place.

Don't say it.

Craigslist.

The place that I can find the stolen passport.

And there are plenty more where that came from.

I have known some stories where it has taken people ten years

to get their credit ratings back again after it has been completely

trashed by people who have sold their identities but it'll

allow you to get on and commit other crimes and that is

why they are doing it.

And it's not just about selling stuff.

This advert is looking for postmen to steal the letters

they are supposed to be delivering.

On craigslist there is also disorganised crime.

This man want somebody to pass his driving theory test for him.

So what's the deal, I go in and take it?

But for 50 quid, it's not that black and white.

For a start he is black and I am white and somebody will notice.

But they check the photo against the database?

But there is no way I'm going to get through.

When I later revealed I'm a journalist he didn't

have anything to say.

And neither did craigslist.

When we asked it for an interview, this is what it told us.

And that came from the top, the chief executive's office.

It is making money and whilst nobody is turning round and forcing them,

you will find sites like this using the ostrich effect,

sticking their head in the sand.

No wonder criminals can carry on regardless

but unless they are selling to a journalist.

I work from the BBC, if you look at that camera.

I'd like to know...

Because I'm trying to get out of debt.

Yes.

My mother is going to kill me.

In Carlisle the man selling counterfeit tobacco spots

as we seal the deal.

This is the first time I have ever done it,

you can probably tell.

I'm trying to make money for my family.

So you're working for somebody else?

Yes.

And how many people like you are working for him?

I don't know.

And after telling me he is done selling counterfeit

tobacco, he is off.

Or at least, I thought he was.

Don't forget the goods.

I thought you weren't selling it on?

But at least he was talking, next up my cocaine dealer,

take a good look because he is not hanging around for long.

The thing is, I work for the BBC and we are trying to find out why

you are peddling cocaine?

Why is that?

He wasn't hanging about, was he?

How about Stacey?

Will she want to talk?

I'm trying to find out why you're willing to launder money for people.

Why you're doing that, Stacey.

You knew it was risky, would you like to explain?

I've got nothing to say to you.

Just like my passport fee.

I'm not buying a passport off you because I work from the BBC.

I want to know why you're selling stolen passports,

why are you doing it?

Why are you selling stolen passports?

How much organised crime that is sitting behind

that is frightening and it is critical that the police

force and law enforcement agencies force the likes of craigslist

to do something about it.

So what is the government doing?

When we asked to interview a minister, we got was a Home

Office statement saying it is...

We have kind of done that for them already.

Told you.

So maybe it is time the government forced websites like craigslist

to clean up their act.

Why would a man want multiple wives and why would the women

want to share her husband?

Polygamy is becoming more common here in the UK.

I have been to meet a businessman and Sunderland who has been helping

men all over the world find a wife, several times over.

This is the man who markets second wives.

I am the founder of polygamy.com and secondwife.com.

The world's first-ever polygamy-based website.

Even though it is not recognised by the law here he believes

polygamy is the future.

The whole idea is to build bigger and better families and tenuous

and now it will not a taboo.

You are convinced there is a demand?

100,000 people are already signed up so of course there is.

The website is aimed at everyone but the first website

is specifically aimed at Muslims.

I welcome you to secondwife.com where you will

find like-minded brothers and sisters who want

to revive polygamy.

His business was founded on recruiting dwelling wives

from Muslim men as he explained to me in a break at the office.

It sounds a bit like the man who wants his cake and eat it?

What's wrong with that?

There are other ways of doing it, like our fears, prostitution, etc.

-- affairs.

And those are not necessarily good for relationships.

Here is more honourable because you're upfront about it.

Most Muslims in the UK do not practice polygamy but some

interpretations of the Koran say a man may marry two or three or even

four women as long as you can deal justly and feel it

with each of them.

So how does that work out in practice?

I am on my way to meet one couple in Yorkshire to find out.

Tarek, a doctor, is using the website to find

a second wife when he met Tracy by chance.

They got together in February.

Cosy cottage, log burner.

I would love a log burner.

Two horses and we could go riding and go for a romantic picnics.

Of course.

I have currently two wives and an ex-wife.

Lots of Muslim ladies are not married, whether they are growing

older they have been divorced and nobody is really interested

audio single mothers, so I thought if I have the ability

to manage more than one wife then I would like to

take this opportunity.

And do people outside of the Islamic faith, friends of yours,

do they understand?

Do they get this?

Quite a few people are asking, how do you manage that?

It sounds complicated or difficult but once you reach

an agreement together, you will find it easy.

I am not just doing it to have, I am doing it together.

-- to give.

I thought long and hard about polygamy and I thought this

could actually work out to my advantage.

I want to be married to somebody but I still want to be able

to travel and have my independence.

So really you're only after a part-time husband?

Physically it's a part-time husband.

Emotionally, it is a full-time husband.

I will do it.

Which one?

I will tighten it up, maybe move that up.

The way I see it, I have the best of everything.

You signed up for one day a week, has that worked out?

He's always been very straight with me in what I can manage

and he did say one day and one night per week.

Tracy has now asked to renegotiate the marriage contract.

She wants him for two days every week.

I found myself being more insecure with my marriage with it being just

one day and one night.

And what of his other wife if that means less time with her?

I do think about my co-wife.

And the situation she is in.

They are at home, they have Child number six coming along.

She does need more support.

But polygamy is not for everyone.

When it comes to users of secondwife.com,

men outnumber women 3-1.

If somebody is offering themselves up as a second

wife they may not know what is going on with

wife they may not know what is going on with the first wife?

But this is why I encourage everybody to be open so you have

to get everything on the table.

Some people might say this is just the guys having their own way

and they can have fun and women don't have much say.

It takes two hands to clap and the fact we have so many

successful marriages and so many women who have signed up themselves.

Lots of them are highly educated and professionals,

doctors, teachers, lawyers.

They are opting to enter this kind of relationship.

Bigamy, when you marry again before getting divorced,

can land you in prison for up to seven years, but polygamist

marriages are marked by spiritual or religious ceremonies

and as they are not recognised by law there is no reliable

figure for how many take place in the UK.

It should be thought of in terms of a hub

and spoke model where you

have a central husband with multiple wives will be husband

is choosing who the wives are, so in a sense the husband has full

control over every single member of that family.

Is there a wider impact of polygamy not just on the centre?

As the country is trying to get a greater sense of equality,

trying to make some steps towards greater gender equality,

I think this is something that would be a stumbling block.

You should be able to just feel his mouth.

Let your rwins up a bit.

Within polygamy, do you feel you are an equal partner?

No.

I don't.

As much as it is an experience and I really love Tarek,

I wouldn't do it again because it is not easy emotionally.

It really is not.

According to the Koran, he could find a third wife

or even a fourth, how would you feel about that?

I don't want that.

If he is absolutely adamant that if he wants that,

I have to think about very strongly my options.

It is up to the man, as wise as he can be,

to treat them fairly, so if he doesn't have

this skill or ability, it might be very difficult to avoid

a higher chance of jealousy which can cause problems.

The women have the choice that they can walk away

from the marriage at any point.

Back in the office, he has just launched his third

matchmaking website.

As part of the practical marriage guide I will give you 100 questions

to ask your future spouse prior to getting married...

He believes a lot can be learned from how some Muslims go

about finding a husband and wife, but he has boundaries.

Could the natural extension of this a second husband?

That is not something I personally advocate but if someone wants

but if someone wants to start that it is their own choice,

I will not go about protesting.

What about his personal quest for a second wife?

So far he has only managed the bag one.

I am quite picky and when I say that I am quite practical.

The website came about from my need and thinking if that is going to be

other people in my situation it is benefiting a lot

of people and that gives me a lot of satisfaction.

Myself, my number will come and I am a very patient person

and I believe in divine decree, that maybe there is a reason

it has not happened.

Thank you very much.

So what do you think?

Is polygamy is relationship too far simply a private between adults?

The details are on screen.

50 years ago, the law changed.

Being free to live your life as a gay man was no longer illegal

and since then we have celebrated same-sex civil partnerships

and marriage, but has everywhere been embracing change

quite so readily?

Kendal, 1959, and the local paper has a scoop.

This court report shocked the town.

30 men in the dock.

The newspaper published the names and addresses.

They would lose their jobs and face disgrace and their crime, the men,

some of whom were married, were gay and arrested

on charges of gross indecency.

The impact on the men would be huge.

One, a year away from retirement, stood to lose his pension.

Even the judge was sympathetic.

If there was anything I could do to write that injustice,

and I repeat the word injustice, I would do it.

I am satisfied you have suffered more than you deserve.

Despite that sense of injustice it would be nearly another decade

before the sexual offences act freed men to be open about

their relationships.

But there is lingering suspicion that it is still tough to be

gay in rural England than in big metropolitan cities.

I would be going to find out.

They pack some punch?

They do!

I am quite surprised at how physical they are.

It is like giving children medicine, they don't like it!

Simon farms up in the Northern Pennines.

He chose a family occasion to come out.

Had you planned to make this part of your 21st birthday

but that just happen?

Not really.

I was starting to date somebody and I thought

the whole family is here, better to tell everybody.

So did your family know?

My mother knew that I hadn't said anything to my father.

Do you think he knew?

I spoke to him the day after and we spoke about it

and he had said if he is gay he will come out when he is ready.

Have you ever had any hostility directed towards

you because you're gay?

Yes.

Neighbours and stuff.

Telling other neighbours about us.

Fortunately they already knew and were absolutely fine with it

but it always gets back to you what they think

and what they said but that's just the way they are,

just nasty people.

Cumbria pride.

The county's biggest LGB key event in the calendar is underway.

-- LGBT.

Billie has been a Cumbrian drag queen for more than 30 years.

This is the imperial crown, very heavy to wear.

I am not wearing that today, I'll willing be much lighter tiara.

That's a nice one.

And it was a long time before he ever admitted being gay.

It was difficult in those days because when I used to do some

of the clubs people used to say, you poof.

I am married, I have two kids, so once you start that you have

to remember you have told a lie.

Why did you need to tell the lie?

Because they would've took offence to the fact you are gay

and you're wearing a frock.

In the 1970s there was a bar, the witness box, they used to sit

and watch the gays coming in and sometimes you think,

I will not go in and just use the toilet and come out again.

If there were not many you would dart into the witness box.

So you were being judged at that point?

In those days, and even nowadays, there's still a lot

of homophobia in Carlisle.

Do you think it is because of there's a small community

that is less tolerance?

What do you think it comes down to?

You only have to go one hour and a half down

the road to Blackpool

and you can wear whatever you want and nobody bats an eyelid.

This is a small town on its own and they are just not up

to speed with equality rights.

Today in the city, a chance that everybody to express

who they truly are.

Mike, another farmer, wishes he had done so years ago.

I got married at the age of 21 and had both kids by the age of 25

and principally was living a lie.

Do you think you continued with this lie because you live

the rural community?

Definitely.

Yes.

Going to the option and seeing what the class as the norm,

it just didn't really seem right to be gay and be a farmer.

Every year the Home Office collates figures sitting at the number

of reported hate crimes against the LGB key community.

-- LGBT.

In Cumbria it is not comfortable reading.

If you are gay here you are twice as likely to celebrate hate crimes

of the national average.

Proportionally that is the highest in England and Wales.

Just last week a man was sentenced to over two years in prison

for a homophobic attack on two women in Penrith.

Any hate crime against anyone is unacceptable

and we have to act about it.

I am reassured that our LGBT community actually feel confident

to come forward and report and I want them to do that,

and in some ways I am not concerned that the incidents of people

reporting is necessarily the problem.

That shows we are coming for a ban telling us about it and we can

do something about it.

I have heard from two farmers and the attitudes of people

more than 30 years ago.

So what is it like for young people coming out today?

Do you know that I'm gay?

No.

You do now.

Yeah.

Have you never had any suspicions?

No.

How about you?

Maybe.

Ross, who is 19, is part of the you Tube generation,

so he decided to film telling his parents

so he decided to film telling his parents for a documentary.

Everything is fine?

It's a life choice, that's all it is.

The fear came from the fact I had never seen a gay person

around where I live.

Ross decided to come out just as he was leaving home to start

university in Salford.

I never thought there would be such a big reaction online.

I wasn't expecting the town to come together to show its support.

And that wasn't all.

One of the best outcomes from the documentary was getting

into a relationship with someone from my town, which is quite

unlikely, because growing up I thought there were hardly any gay

people in my time.

This is a real celebration of Cumbria's diversity,

proof of how far we have come since the court

reports of the 1950s.

The people I have met in Cumbria today say that as long

as we still hear stories of visibility and direct

discrimination it is important to stand up and be counted.

Things like this really do bring it out and let them come out

when they want to and not have to keep it bottled up like I did.

It is very important to us that we have accepted and we have

equal rights to everybody else.

I needed to know that people were OK with that rather than just

tried to guess myself.

And that brings us to the end of this week's show.

Next week, a simple check that is saving the lives of hundreds

of men across the North.

I will see you next week, until then, from Lowther Castle

in Cumbria, good night.

go. That's it for others to night

go. That's it for others to night from

go. That's it for others to night from the

go. That's it for others to night from the Medway

Hello, I'm Riz Lateef with your 90 second update.

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