17/10/2011 Inside Out North West

Hello and welcome to Inside Out of North West. Tonight, we are live

from Anfield as Parliament finally debates the Hillsborough disaster.

I believe it was a cover up of Hillsborough, a blanket was put

over Hillsborough, there is no doubt about that. I want the whole

nation and the whole world to realise what we have been saying

for 22 years. Hello and welcome to Anfield, the

home of Liverpool Football Club. Right now Parliament is debating

whether or not Government files relating to the Hillsborough

Disaster can finally be released. 96 Liverpool fans died at the FA

Cup semi final in Sheffield 22 years ago. Since then their

families and friends have campaigned long and hard for the

full facts surrounding the disaster to be made public. Tonight's debate

offers fresh hope that at long last, they may finally get what they've

been trying to achieve for over two decades. We've got a special report

on that fight and with me are three guests who'll help us understand

why it's taken so long to reach this point.

First of all, let's get the latest from Westminster.

This has been a powerful to be at this evening and more significant

than many were expecting. I am here in Parliament, the Commons chamber

just a few metres away where MPs are at this very moment debating

the subject which is a subject remember that is being debated

because so many people signed the petition and demanded that MPs come

to the chamber and talk about it. The most significant development so

far is that the Home Secretary, Theresa May, has promised that the

families will see every single document, known pieces are blanked

out, so they can see the truth for themselves when the documents are

finally published. This was a debate opened by the MP who began

asking for the government to apologise.

A farcical review of evidence and a system that worked against instead

of for the families has left a bitter taste. An unsympathetic

government, and unsatisfactory judicial process and an unforgiving

press has led observers to believe that an organised conspiracy was

acting against the best interests of natural justice. Some

parliamentary observers have said that it was one of the most moving

moments in the House of Commons a little earlier this evening when

Steve Rotherham read out the list of those who had died. Parliament

has never recorded their names for prosperity. Tonight I can at least

put one wrong right. John Anderson, S62.: Ashcroft, 19. Roger Ball, 16.

That was a very moving moment in the House of Commons, the

government listening and most importantly, the families

themselves in the public gallery listening to this debate which they

have waited so many years for. We'll be back later on in the

programme. To talk to me about the implications of the debate we have

a former Walton MP Peter Kilfoyle and also to survivors of the

disaster, Peter Corry and Damien Cavanagh. Peter Kilfoyle, why has

it taken so long? The rules of Parliament had changed so the way

in which petitions are handled - it used to be the case that people

would take a petition to Parliament, say a few words and that was the

end of it. Now of course, because of changes in procedure, the

government have to take notice of a petition. There are those who would

say that your government failed to act on this, why was it not held so

many years ago? That demand which is made now, was unanswered off.

You mean the means of getting it into Parliament? Yes but I am

saying there were debates. I had wanted a night of course but the

way in which the system worked at that time, you could only speak for

15 minutes and indeed the families came down for that debate and the

then home secretary Michael Howard address the families. There was no

way in which the wider public could press its case. The debate is still

ongoing. You two were there that day and is survived, what do you

make of the news that the Home Secretary Theresa May has stood up

and said that Cabinet papers will be made available? I think it is

fantastic, is about time that it did happen and every single paper

should be released without any censorship. What are people

expecting to see in these papers because much has been made of Mrs

Thatcher organising a meeting 24 hours after the disaster where on

Merseyside certainly, there is a theory of conspiracy, to blame the

fans so what are you expecting to see? It is clear to us that there

was a conspiracy because we were there and we are the experts. The

inquiry reinforced what we thought and our experiences of but with

regard to what we can expect to see, we expect to see as much publicity

for the truth has we know and we hope then that it would give the

arts community to the wider public. This is a step to exposing the

wider truth but are you actively saying that you expect to see

evidence of collusion when these papers are released? No, for

example, there is a video missing from Leppings Lane. If that went

missing, they could be other things that were not disclosed or whatever.

What we want is as much disclosure as possible and everyone to see.

Kids are learning about this at school now, it is as important as

it was then. Theresa May stood up and said that those notes will come

out but you have just heard than Damien there that there may still

be suspicion. It is perfectly understandable that people will be

cynical about commitments made by government ministers. We only have

to look at what happened with the Iraqi war inquiries were all sorts

of papers went missing. More importantly very often it is the

nature of the record that is kept, it is so ambiguous that it is less

than helpful. I understand perfectly those who have followed

this journey over the last 22 years and I have watched the families

being disappointed time after time. The two words on Merseyside are

that resonate our truth and justice. Talk to me about justice, what do

people want? Do they want to see police men prosecuted for

negligence? I am sure there are plenty of people who want the

police officers prosecuted for some kind of charge relating to the

killing of those on Leppings Lane. On the other end of the spectrum,

we have the inquest verdict that recorded accidental as the cause of

death and that is absolute nonsense. These issues are going to have to

be looked at when we see what is in the papers. Just for now, our fans

going to be happy and satisfied with what they are seeing tonight

as far as Theresa May standing up and say you'll get these papers?

Habibie had got this far, public acknowledgement that this will

happen but there is a long way to go. We went to see the full

findings and a proper inquiry to go over everything. Have picked up to

a point but still some way to go. More to come later from these three

but as we have already said, it has taken 22 years to get this far.

Families and friends have campaigned for so long and so hard

for this moment and along the way, they have confronted many hurdles

and obstacles and got over most of them. We look back now on this

latest fight in a long flight of fights they have had for truth and

justice on Merseyside. The clock was locked, the sun shone

down on the pitch lighting up faces as death descended on Leppings Lane.

Between the bars, an arm was raised amidst a human tidal wave. Her body

too young to fight For breads is drowned in a sea of debt.

April 15th, 1989, the FA semi Cup final between in Liverpool and

Nottingham Forest becomes a human catastrophe. 96 fans are crushed to

death but instead of sympathy and support, Liverpool supporters faced

recriminations and are accused of causing their own a tragedy. The

accusations were quickly proved to be groundless but for those who

lost loved ones, the pain was just beginning. For 22 years, the

families of these 96 victims have been in limbo, searching for

answers, searching for closure but most of all, they have been

searching for justice. It is a long road that could finally be coming

to an end but it has been an emotional struggle to get to where

they are today. It is so frustrating, over 22 years, 22

years of hurt. I believe it was a cover up at Hillsborough. A blanket

was put over Hillsborough, there's no doubt about that. Dave is a

writer and a fanatical Liverpool supporter, he knew from experience

that the Leppings Lane end at Hillsborough was a dangerous place

when there was a full house. There was no control really of the

central pens that were just cages. If they had been outlets to

disperse the fans from inside the cage, but there wasn't, it was a

trap. I remember Peter Beardsley hit the cross their at it was just

shortly after that, things started to go bizarre. I heard screaming

and it was people getting excited at first. Then I could see people

screaming at the police, just faces pressed up against the bars and

people begging you to try and help them and you on the other side of

the cage and can do anything. It was horrendous, it really was. The

fans at the back for pulling people up so the fans acted before the a

authorities. By the time the police did react, it was far too late.

Your instinct as a human being tells you when someone is in

trouble and in serious injury but they just did not react. To the

Prime Minister arrived accompanied by the home secretary. Mrs Thatcher

said she watched in disbelief following that visit, the Lord

Justice was appointed to conduct an inquiry into the relief of

Liverpool fans his interim report concluded that failure of police

control was the main cause of the tragedy. It was like the fans had

cost it and the Smiths were being spread. It was so hurtful. When the

report came out, the initial reaction was one of relief. He more

less exonerated and blew away those stories. We thought, at last,

somebody is going to tell the truth. The report was a false dawn. In

1991, the coroner stunned families by returning inquest verdicts of

accidental death on all the victims. He ruled they must have received

their injuries by 3:15pm which meant that any new evidence that

said victims were alive at 4pm was inadmissible. When you leave --

need the things, it is horrendous. That was probably the most hurtful

and the families were broken, it really programme at that time.

Margaret Gloucester 18 year-old son James in the disaster. It was his

first away match. As chair of the Hillsborough Family Support Group,

she has thrown her energy into the fight to uncover the truth. It has

been very difficult over 22 years. If you start from the very

beginning of the inquest and then the generic inquest then at the

Taylor Report and of this to the scrutiny we have had and the trauma

cases, private prosecutions, everything we have gone for it has

always been doors closed in our faces. Campaigners felt the

election of a Labour government in 1997 would finally bring a change

in their fortune. Review the following year found nothing new.

The two chief Superintendents on duty that day were cleared without

charge. The it was game, set and match against that and that is the

words I would use. Because we could not bring any of the Taylor report

in when they went for the private prosecution. We couldn't bring it

in at the generic inquest. Why when we need the whole trip at

Hillsborough and yet we couldn't bring the Taylor report into any of

it? Two years ago on the 20th anniversary of the disaster, the

Culture Minister felt the anger of Liverpool at a special memorial

service. He had to stand and listen while fans chanted justice for the

96. This proved to be a turning point. A panel was set up to review

the case once more. A BBC freedom of information request called for

the release of government documents relating to the tragedy. Then this

summer, 140,000 people signed a petition calling for the release of

all paperwork prompting tonight's debate. It is historical what is

happening here today. Really historical and I think everyone who

signed the petition should be proud of themselves because I think they

have set a precedent now and I think that is a wonderful thing but

most importantly, to the 96 he died, who cannot speak for themselves, we

have got to do it for them. when the whole world to realise

what we have been saying for 22 years, which is that what happened

on the day was down to the people in command of Hillsborough and

nothing to do with the fans. The one that trip to come out, we all

22 years ago, almost 10,000 people came here to remember the lives of

the 96 people that died. 2,000 people stood inside and 8,000

gathered outside. As they paid their respects, few of them could

have imagine that more than two decades later, they would still be

waiting to find out what really happened at Hillsborough. Mother

Nature comforts the soul. It takes me to the field of gold. A

beautiful vision. From 89. As time rolls on each passing year, I feel

more close to those who fell. I live in hope that soon, we will

hear, the deafening tone of the This is a live edition of the

programme. We are focusing on the parliamentary debate, the

historical parliamentary debate on the Hillsborough disaster. We have

seen the MP for Walton putting through the motion, reading out the

names of the 96 dead and speaking about a conspiracy that he hopes

will be exposed. We heard the Home Secretary say that members, the

families of the Hillsborough dead will receive the Cabinet papers,

all of them, unredacted and uncensored, in other words, they

will see everything. With me tonight, p to kill file, Peter

Carney and Damien caveat. -- Peter Guilfoyle. We heard on the film

about the 22 years of hurt, Peter, tell me what happened to you on

that day? I was carried into the ground by the momentum from this

slope that was in the tunnel. Abyss facing the back the way that I ate

came in. -- I was facing. I eventually was knocked unconscious.

I was carried out of the ground and I was lying out the back of the

stand. The lads that had gone into the ground came in and that they

realised that I was alive and well and they moved me to the recovery

area and I was taken to hospital. Damian, you were on the pitch

helping out, what role did you play? I was caught in the crush. I

was towards the front of the terrace. My hands were up so I was

able to edge myself up and I crawled over people's heads and I

got through a gate and on to the pitch. There was no help from the

police so why had to help myself, and that is the way I got out. I

got on to the lads that re-using advertising boards as structures.

People that work distressed and unconscious, I took part in helping

her that and moving the fans up to the end of the pitch for medical

treatment. There are many stories like this on Merseyside and they

are always horrific when you hear them, you met all of the families

involved, the families of the dead, how we anywhere nearer to

Merseyside being able to move on? would sincerely hope so, but there

is always a danger that you expect things, you were looking for things

that may not be there. You do not know what is there, but what has

been created over the 22 years with this sense of mistrust about

anything that comes out from government. The full truth was

never made available to the families. I do not know how it will

end, some people will never get closer. We heard from Damian that

he does not expect the full truth still, but let's focus on the 24

hours after the disaster, Mrs Thatcher called a meeting of the

Cabinet, these are the minutes we're going to get. What happens,

Peter and Damian, I will start with you Peter, if there is no evidence

of a conspiracy Auric collusion? will have to take note of the

nature of the notes that are taken at these meetings, they will be

paid them they will not be very clear. He will not find minutes

saying that Margaret Thatcher told Bernard Ingram to tell people in

the papers to write a pack of lies. We will be able to read him to them,

the kind of direction that Margaret Thatcher was expecting the

investigations to going. Does that put a false line through this

procedure, if, for example, these papers are released and to do not

take them at face value, the politicians will say, what else can

they do? We are taking them for a face value, it is the meaning

behind them, you cannot take them as being black and white paper, you

have to understand what the words mean and what the intention is

behind what is being said. There is no greater fault line than the

false line created by Kelvin MacKenzie in the paper on the

Tuesday. That was the Sun newspaper that said the truth. And it was the

exact opposite, it was bare-faced liars and it is known to the fact

on Merseyside. For those that do not know, the son accused fans are

picking the pockets of other fans and much more work at things. --

the Sun newspaper accused fans. They apologised, but it did not do

them any good. Issues like that there will never go away.

cannot easily forget the fact that Kelvin MacKenzie went to a meeting

in Newcastle, and he withdrew his previous apology, he said he did it

at the behest of Rupert Murdoch. The cartel but empathise with the

families that feel as though they are being lied to repeatedly by

people that were high up in the establishment in this country and

should know better. It is a Conservative government releasing

these papers, are you embarrassed Labour did not manage to do that?

No, I am just embarrassed by the fact it was a Conservative

government when the tragedy occurred and it went on until 1997,

then there were a Labour government and Conservative governments, and

they have all failed. They have all failed to make sure that the

families had the truth and the just as they fought for her in those 22

years. In Parliament, they are debating these issues, they hoped

to redress that failure, let's go back to war political correspondent

in Westminster with the latest. debate goes on. So far, we have

heard from MPs from all of the parties in the region pressing very

much for the same thing which is full disclosure of documents. The

Prime Minister has walk past earlier today. -- walked past. He

said that he was committed to the release of the documents. The

question is, how many of these will the panel published? Theresa May

went further than many people were expecting. We want to see full

disclosure to the panel of all of the documents relating to

Hillsborough, including Cabinet minutes. Those documents should be

uncensored and unredacted. The fall unredacted Cabinet Office papers on

Ellesborough have already been made available to the panel. -- the fall

unredacted Cabinet Office papers. What about Andy Burnham? There is a

belief of a cover-up and a conspiracy by police at the time.

That is something that MPs have spoken about, and Andy Burnham was

the Culture Secretary that led to the creation of the panel and has

been at the forefront of this campaign, he spoke up in the

Commons earlier and quoted from a document currently lodged in the

House of Lords written by a police officer known simply as PCT to

seven. -- PCTs 227. I was over, the motion but I soon realised that I

would be no use to anyone if I felt sorry for myself. I was assisted

onto the pitch and I saw several officers wandering around in a

dazed and confused state, some people crying and some people

sitting on the grass. Members of the public were running around

ferrying people from the pitch to the far end of the ground. It is a

long time since 1989 for the families and campaigners that once

just as over Hillsborough. A long time they have had to go ahead with

this campaign and with so many towns, they have been knocked back,

they face secrecy, they had to fight hard for this debate. -- so

many turns. They were helped by this public petition and that

pushed for this debate this evening. They have heard from the Government,

moving further their money be Boba had expected, and this will leave

them with some hope this evening. - - than many people had expected.

Hopefully they will finally get to the truth.

Thank you. We are here live in Anfield with Peter Gill for while,

Peter Carney and David caveat. We were hearing from Andy Burnham

standing in Parliament, he felt that the police reaction was

inadequate, he said officers were crying, unable to cope on the day,

does that tied in with what you saw on the day? Damian you were on the

pitch, does that tied him? Yes. The police response was too little too

late. It was quite obvious there was a lot of suffering and there

was death. If you look back at the date, you will see a lot of people

in dark uniforms standing around and you see the people that escaped

death getting stuck in. They were hoping on their own. Peter, from

that small piece of news from Andy Burnham, many, many people on

Merseyside will feel vindicated because they have said for years

that the police did not react professionally enough. It has been

a commonly held belief and it has been vindicated prior to tonight

that in fact, the emergency services failed on the day. You

only have to think about the ambulance that was not allowed into

the stadium. There were police walking around and they did not

know what to do. Poorly trained. are one step closer to the truth,

Damian, the last word to you, what we mean just as to you? Just as

well be, for a start, the world knowing the true story. -- just as

well be. We want to know everything that happened, we want the facts. I

never thought ever be standing here two years later, at the time what

was seen on the TV was obvious to everybody. Thank you. That there

would be more from us at 10:30pm in the late bulletin. From every when