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For much of her career, Lionel Shriver scribbled | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
in obscurity, and those are her words, not mine. | :00:00. | :00:09. | |
Then her seventh novel hit the big time. | :00:10. | :00:11. | |
We Need To Talk About Kevin won the Orange Prize for Fiction | :00:12. | :00:14. | |
Lionel Shriver's latest book is called The Mandibles, | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
and it's set during a financial crisis in America | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
At its heart are four generations of a once wealthy family who must | :00:22. | :00:29. | |
deal with the loss of their fortune and then learn to survive | :00:30. | :00:31. | |
as the dollar collapses, inflation soars and the economy | :00:32. | :00:33. | |
Lionel Shriver, you wrote The Mandibles in 2015, | :00:34. | :00:57. | |
and the picture you paint of America is pretty bleak. | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
Revisiting it now as it comes out in paperback, | :01:01. | :01:02. | |
One of the striking things about revisiting this book | :01:03. | :01:15. | |
after the release of the hardback in the spring of 2016 is obviously | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
we now have a new president, and not the president we expected. | :01:20. | :01:27. | |
So there's a feeling of not quite being overtaken by events, | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
because what happened in the book has not happened yet. | :01:34. | :01:35. | |
In fact, quite to the contrary, the stock market is going | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
through the roof, though I'm not convinced it will stay there. | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
But certainly interest in dystopias, in dystopian fiction, | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
has picked up enormously, and I think the entire landscape | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
of reality has changed, if that's not being a little overdramatic. | :01:52. | :01:58. | |
In that what we consider possible has changed. | :01:59. | :02:06. | |
Donald Trump was initially not going to get elected. | :02:07. | :02:08. | |
The idea of his being president was farcical. | :02:09. | :02:10. | |
As you say, it is a dystopian novel, set in 2029 predominantly, | :02:11. | :02:18. | |
But this isn't a future of lizards running down 5th Ave | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
It's a world in many ways that is very recognisable to us. | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
In fact, I kept the technological innovation to a minimum. | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
There is a little bit, because of course things do move on, | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
but I didn't want the reader's focus to be on gadgets, so I tried to keep | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
the changes between now and then quite modest. | :02:43. | :02:54. | |
I did insert things - there was a major cyber | :02:55. | :02:56. | |
catastrophe in 2024, which I think is highly likely. | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
But I wanted you to be able to walk into this book | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
And we see what happens to one particular family, the Mandibles, | :03:04. | :03:12. | |
and how what they take for granted and perhaps what many of us take | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
You can't get hold of olive oil and wine. | :03:16. | :03:22. | |
And by the end of the book, it's $40. | :03:23. | :03:24. | |
I wanted to go on that nitty-gritty household level. | :03:25. | :03:33. | |
So there's more than one scene in this book that takes | :03:34. | :03:41. | |
And the supermarket becomes a strangely political place. | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
Which it is, rather, because it has to do | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
And what people regard as necessary to their primitive survival varies | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
according to income level, so that most middle to upper middle | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
classes would consider having to live without olive oil | :04:00. | :04:06. | |
I mean, one of the things that people start hoarding and therefore | :04:07. | :04:13. | |
And one that you examine in the book when we have a shortage of it. | :04:14. | :04:25. | |
You explore America's collapse through this one family, | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
and it's not the first time you've explored big issues | :04:29. | :04:30. | |
Well, I think it's a good route in to an issue, | :04:31. | :04:38. | |
and one of the things that happens when an economy breaks down is that | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
civil structures break down, and relationships | :04:43. | :04:43. | |
As a nation, you can stop functioning, as a city | :04:44. | :04:58. | |
or a neighbourhood you can stop functioning, and as a family | :04:59. | :05:00. | |
And you put enough stresses on people, and I do design the plot | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
so that little by little, everyone ends up in the same house. | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
There is one character in this book, Nollie, | :05:10. | :05:22. | |
who is a bestselling writer, like you, who has lived away | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
from the United States for several decades, | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
like you, and indeed her name is an anagram of Lionel. | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
Why did you want to insert yourself in the novel? | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
I'd written enough books by then, I figured I'd earned | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
I used all the truly atrocious working titles of my real books | :05:40. | :05:51. | |
for the titles of her books, and she's an exercise fanatic, | :05:52. | :05:53. | |
and annoys everyone by doing star jumps on an upper floor, | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
Although by this time she's 72 and really doesn't have a hope | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
in hell of looking any better as a consequence! | :06:03. | :06:04. | |
So it was partly just to take the mickey out of myself. | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
But it was also, and there was a slight political | :06:08. | :06:09. | |
intention in that this book, I have to confess, in some ways, | :06:10. | :06:19. | |
economically anyway, demonises the baby boomer | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
And so I was putting myself in the book partly to admit, well, | :06:26. | :06:36. | |
I'm the kind of person that younger generations are going to have | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
to carry, and so it was a kind of mea culpa. | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
You'd been writing novels and getting published and reviewed, | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
and then you had this an enormous success with We Need | :06:49. | :06:50. | |
Is it true, by the way, that that book was turned | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
It was also turned down by 20 different agents | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
It certainly wasn't artistic fervour. | :07:02. | :07:17. | |
And then, as I say, it was this enormous success. | :07:18. | :07:19. | |
Is that only a blessing, or does it bring its own pressures with it? | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
Well, for a while, it did oblige me to revisit a book that I felt | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
And that got a little bit trying, although I always had to be | :07:29. | :07:35. | |
mindful not to complain, because all my professional life, | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
I had been waiting for a book to hit it big, so once I got what I claimed | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
I wanted, I had to keep my mouth shut. | :07:43. | :07:50. | |
Every once in a while I have to go back to it and read | :07:51. | :08:01. | |
a scene or a passage, and sometimes I think, | :08:02. | :08:03. | |
You tackle some pretty big subjects in your books, including this one. | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
And you've written about the health care system in America and obesity, | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
I just look for something that I have a strong | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
And I'm not necessarily obliged in my own book to pick something | :08:20. | :08:27. | |
But I'm just looking for something that I have a strong | :08:28. | :08:40. | |
Lionel Shriver, you always give us plenty to talk about. | :08:41. | :09:07. | |
The weekend has brought a mix of weather. On Saturday some of us saw | :09:08. | :09:08. |