15/07/2013 Newsnight Scotland

honestly what went on that needs to be addressed. That is the cultural

issue, let's look at the economic issue, economic But tonight on

Newsnight Scotland, wide as it seemed that all the writers, artists

and musicians are backing independence? I believe that

independence can only add to our potential. Remember how many of them

were at the Yes Scotland launched? And some prisoners prepare to take

their case for conjugal rights all the way to stress port. We ask

should prisoners' partners be allowed to visit for sex? We are

told Alex Salmond wants the greatest literary talents to help draft the

Scottish Government's vision of independence, with William

McIlvanney apparently the first choice of the First Minister. There

is no shortage of artistic types backing independence who might be

willing to help with the White Paper, but why are there so few

creatives who back the union? Could that be about to change? Me last

year -- me last year and the launch of the Yes Scotland campaign. There

were plenty of high-profile politicians at the cinema where it

was launched, but also having their say was a host of well-known actors,

musicians and figures from the arts. I remember the night I became a

nationalist. I was 18 years old, it was the night of the 1992 election.

I think it can only add to our... course, the idea of the arts

community getting on board with political campaigns has been going

on for decades. In the mid-80s a group of high-profile musicians,

including Paul Weller and Billy Bragg, formed Red Wedge, An

Anti-thatcher Project That Sought To Boost the Labour Party. Read Wedge

had limited success. The Conservative election win in

1987... It doesn't need to be the case that you need to have a

well-known person put the case for us. It doesn't say a lot about the

politicians themselves, who are just great, bland, dreadful, there isn't

an orator among them. And when artists get involved in political

campaigns, it doesn't always go to plan. Robbie Coltrane was signed up

to Labour during the campaign for Scottish devolution, but things went

awry for the party when he said this. I think I would eventually

like to see independence, but only an independent Labour Scotland. I

think this is the way to go about it. So is it a bad idea for creative

individuals to get involved in campaigning or should the warning

light instead of for the politicians? I would like to think

that performers who have passion will upset the apple cart a bit,

they showed, and if you are going to play with fire, if you're going to

bring someone on and expect them to be your poodle, like you're in turn

or second in the party, then you are asking for trouble. I hope you are.

It certainly seems from events like these that artistic types have come

out in force for independence. If there is a similar level of support,

the prounion side have seemed reluctant to get involved so far.

Why is that and could it be about to change? Thank you very much.I'm

joined now by Alan Bissett, the novelist, playwright and performer

who is representing the pro-independence artists movement

national collective. And by the classical composer Eddie McGuire,

who supports the union and is also a member of the Whistlebinkies. White

do each of you support -- why do each of you support your political

site? Alan, why do you think independence will help the artist?

There is a real groundswell of cultural energy happening in

Scotland, the rediscovering of old Scottish traditions, reimagining

them and realising that faced with the biggest historical event they

will ever see, one of the biggest events Scotland will ever see, they

are excited and want to engage with it. Eddie, why do you still support

the union? I see Scottish traditions as part of a British family of

similar traditions. You have Northumberland bagpipes, singing in

Dorset, Scottish music and theatre all part of a fabric of British

culture. My musicians union is celebrating its 120th anniversary.

It was founded in Manchester, the second branch was in Glasgow and the

third was Liverpool. These unions build up the fabric of what you call

written and to say that we will split working people's ability to

resist the onslaught of impoverishment in this capitalist

crisis is, to me, a bit of a betrayal. That said, why do you

think so many more artists are coming out for Alan's cause? I think

it is mischiefmaking and inaccurate writing in the feature columns in

the Scotsman and other papers to say that most artists support

independence because, from my point of view, chair of the musicians

union, I have my ear to the ground and I know a lot of people support

British unity and that the family of music making and theatre making in

Britain, and that is the strong opinion that I've got. Allen, a bit

of mischiefmaking going on here or is Yes Scotland just better at

putting these people forward? think good art is all about

mischiefmaking, to be honest, and I think a lot of the artists in

Scotland sense that this is a revolution. We are throwing off the

old order, the failed state that doesn't work for the people of

Scotland, that barely works for the people of England, and that there

are exciting possibilities on the other side of it. In the National

Collective we are trying to invest hope in the future of Scotland

rather than fear that things will fall apart if Scotland becomes

independent. We don't believe that, we think there are numerous

narratives that we can create. you think it is more natural for

artists to be radical, to go against the grain, to go against what the

majority of people think? Yes, I do. If you try to imagine what it was

like living in London in 1966, Revolver by the Beatles is in the

charts and there is this groundswell, this challenge to the

establishment. If you think what it will be like in Scotland in August

2014 just before the referendum, that excitement will be rising. 2014

it could be Scotland's 1966. The only way to transform Britain is

with United working people, United working class people, and anything

that splits that ability to resist capitalism in crisis is a betrayal.

I accuse the Nationalists, what I would call petty separatists, of

splitting the working class and that is a serious accusation. How do you

answer that. We are both socialists and what we are disagreeing on is

strategy. I think that a progressive Scotland that is protecting the most

vulnerable and the NHS, all the things we hold dear, the welfare

state, the coalition in Westminster are trying to take from us, that

Labour won't do anything about. That when we can show the people of

England that we are protecting these things and that will then lead them

to ask why they can't do it. The idea there can be no unity among the

working class doesn't bear scrutiny. We can have solidarity with workers

in France and Germany and the United States. Talking about strategy, you

were talking about about this hidden pool of artist who support the

union. What might the campaign co-to -- do to harness that. Because I was

annoyed by what I regarded as untrue comment about the majority

supporting independence. I went to Better Together and said you must

ask artist who support unity unity stand up and be counted. I know

people in the music world who will do that and in the coming month,

leading up to the Edinburgh Festival, we are going to prepare a

show and a debate that shows that we have the ability to do that.

special pro-union show. Alan, hearing that, do you think that

these political factions developing in the arts world, over a political

row, is it a good thing? Yes, it is healthy. Art is not about

certainties. And even within the independence movement, a lot of the

artists don't feel the same way. It is about exploring the issues. I

welcome this come campaign. I must give a warning, look at Greece and

how art has been devastated in Greece and the orchestras have been

sacked in Greece. The aim of the nationalist is to join the euro and

lead us into the failed projects of the European Union. Well we will

have to lead it there. Alan says it is not true. Very interesting to

talk to you both. Thank you. Now, the Scottish Parliament voted

resoundingly a month ago to reject the idea that prisoners should get a

vote, even though that's the norm in many European countries. The next

attempt to secure additional rights for prisoners is likely to cause

even more controversy - conjugal rights for some prisoners. There's

an argument that there's a human right for a prisoner to have a

family, or more specifically to start a family, while still in

custody. It's never been allowed in the UK, but it's now to be tested in

court in Scotland, in a specific case. A convicted murderer, Kevin

Gibson, serving 15 years, is asking the courts to allow him to exercise

his right to start a family with his wife. The case is at an early stage

so far, but it's re-opened a bunch of moral questions. If we seek

guidance elsewhere, much of the rest of the world sees the point of a

family visits for prisoners. Details vary, but many countries, or parts

of them, allow some form of private family visiting, either in part of

the prison, or at home. Cultures vary too. Some countries include gay

couples, others accommodate the possibility of multiple wives. The

arguments for family visiting are in two parts. One is the simple case

that a prison sentence deprives a person of liberty, but does not

explicitly remove other human rights. The other argument is that

enforced physical estrangement will tend to lead to relationship

breakdowns and that in turn is known to increase the chances that a

prisoner will re-offend. The arguments against are simpler - many

people think prison is largely designed as punishment and as a

disincentive to commit crime. The easier life is perceived to be for

the prisoner, the less effective the process. For most politicians in

this country, as with the voting issue, there's little to be gained

by fighting what you think is the popular will. I'm now joined by

Nancy Loucks, a visiting professor in Humanities and Social Sciences at

Strathclyde University and Chief Executive of the organisation

Families Outside. First, why are you in favour of conjugal right for

prisoners. Many see prisoners as having given up their rights.

have to bear in mind about half of prisoners lose family contact, but

we know re-offending is reduced up to six times for prisoners who keep

up family contact. So that is an important part of things. Family

ties make sure people have a place to stay when they're released and

these things that we know reduce the likelihood of re-offending. What

you're talking about is more structured family visits and time

spent together? Yes in terms of private family visits, conjugal

visit might be part of that, but we want thing like children staying the

night with their parents. Parents coming in to visit younger people

who might be in prison. That would be involving something like what you

see in places like France and Spain, where they have a system of weekend

visits where people can return to a normal family environment. Instead

of a two hour conjugal visit that you would see in Scandinavia.

does it help cut re-offending so much? Some people might be in jail

for particularly violent crimes, why does that family contact help to

reduce re-offending? As I said, it is make sure that people have the

links back into the community and something to go straight for I

suppose. The question as well is whether you want to see a prison in

which return to society starts from the day they go into problem problem

-- into prison, or from the day they are released. This organisation has

done as much as it can to make sure people are ready to be released.

You're talking about how this could punish the family who are left

outside, but many of these prisoners have denied other families the

right-to-life haven't they? Yes, that is the case in many types of

offences. But the families of prisoners haven't committed an

offence. This choice has been taken from them. And they have the right

to family life and their children have the right to family life and it

is trying to make sure that is taken into account. As we saw, this

happens in many other countries, but in the UK and Ireland it is not part

of the culture? Even the Republic of Ireland has some provision for

private visits with children able to stay over night with their mups. The

UK -- with their mums. The UK and Turkey are the only country in

Europe who don't. Even countries like India have provision for

private visits. Hearing how the UK is quite isolated, how successful do

you think this legal action could be? It hasn't opinion successful in

the past in -- it hasn't been successful in the past in Europe. It

could be a small part of the pack panelling of support. - package of

support. There is a sense that the public have to back the justice

system and there does not seem to be much public appetite for this.

and there is not even in countries where it is introduced, until people

get used to the idea. That happened in Canada. They were opposed to

family visits until they started to use them. Thank you. Now a quick

look at tomorrow's front-pages. On the Scotsman, Alex Salmond looks to

Isle of Man as skurn si mod -- currency model. And in the Guardian,

Tories go level with Labour as UKIP slumps. That is all we have time for

tonight. Gordon is back tomorrow. come for England and Wales. For

Northern Ireland, more cloud, cloud across western Scotland bring some

patchy rain. In the far north-east through the middle part of the day

there could be an isolated thunder storm. But plenty of sunshine in

eastern Scotland and that could see temperatures into the mid 20s. Noer

northern England, a lot of sunshine and temperatures in the mid 20s and

we hot things up further south. Always fresher at the costs. --

coasts. But in the Midlands, we are talking about the high 20s and

perhaps even 32 Celsius. Cooler around the coasts to the south-west,

because of a sea breeze and we may just have some low cloud and mist

and fog. In the middle of week the sunshine continues to burn down on

England and Wales and if anything it could be a hotter day still. In

Scotland and Northern Ireland we keep some cloud for the middle of