06/07/2011 Newsnight Scotland

was sold. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: the phone hacking scandal

at the News of the World spills north of the border. There are now

calls for Andy Coulson to be investigated over allegations he

committed perjury during the Sheridan perjury trial. Also

tonight, the state of the nation as viewed by an iconic Scottish

nationalist. Ian Hamilton hasn't lost his propensity to rattle the

establishment. Good evening. If you tell a lie in a trial, and

subsequently get caught, you may be prosecuted for perjury. Tommy

Sheridan found that out. But now there are suggestions that former

Downing Street communications chief Andy Coulson gave evidence in the

Sheridan trial which has turned out to be untrue. Should he be liable

to investigation for perjury? David Henderson has been looking at the

Scottish end of this growing scandal. We thought it was all over,

it may not be now. Last December Tommy Sheridan walked out of court,

his reputation in tatters, but, to the end, he complained he had been

picked out or unfair treatment at the hands of the Crown Office and

police. So it from million pounds of public money was spent

investigating me and my wife. Is it not time that similar resources

were devoted to investigating the activities of the News of the

world? Andy Coulson was a witness at Sheridan's trial also at the

time he was Number Ten's most senior spin-doctor and a former

editor of the News of the world. Sheridan accused him and his

newspaper of conspiring to bring him down. So, Sheridan asked

And that, emphatic statement made in court by Andy Coulson seems at

odds with information obtained by the BBC. The News of the world has

passed e-mails to the police, alleging that the men's were made

by the newspaper to the police and those were authorised by Andy

Coulson, who was the paper's editor at the time. If that information is

true, was Andy Coulson actually lying in court that day? And if

that is the case, could he end up back here, on trial for perjury?

There is a real possibility that Andy Coulson could find himself in

the High Court on allegations of perjury. He told the High Court he

was not aware of any culture of telephone hacking wells he was

editor of News of the World. If it turns out that that was not the

case, then he could find himself potentially open to charges of

perjury arising from his testimony at the High Court. And, in the

Commons to the, MPs demanded action. There are currently people serving

prison sentences, including Tommy Sheridan, the former MSP. The

successful prosecution was based on evidence from Andrew Coulson. But

now, it seems as if the jury did not get all the e-mails put an end

to that case. If that is the case then surely the appropriate

authorities should revisit this case, and ask Andy Coulson whether

this information was withheld intentionally. I just want to fully

as a my honourable friend because time restrictions will reveal more

on that later in the date but I think that the Sheridan trial was

unsound, and may be revisited. Tommy Sheridan's legal team now

want police to investigate Andy Coulson. He may yet have his

revenge. I'm joined now by Aamer Anwar, the solicitor who worked

with the Sheridans during their perjury trials. What action argue

proposing should be taken as a result of what we now know about

what was going on at the News of the World? Tomorrow afternoon,

myself and Tom Watson M P will meet Strathclyde police and present a

dossier, in which there are allegations that the law has been

broken, that the number of individuals may have ordered phone

hacking, and there is a dossier of the evidence of Andy Coulson, the

UK editor, of Bob Berg, was the Scottish editor, and of Douglas

White, who was the assistant editor, all three of whom gave evidence

during the Sheridan trial, all of whom claimed there was no payment

to cut police officers, and there was a number of other issues that

there was. We are demanding that there should be a full-scale

investigation into their evidence and into other issues such as phone

hacking, there is a question of Rebekah Wade, or Rebekah bricks now,

at the time having requested mobile phone conversion. I have a document

which contains thousands of entries of individuals including scores of

people in Scotland. I am not going into details but it is a document

that private detectives were requested to access mobile phone

records, and private details, car registration plates, and the stock

response, again, from Andy Coulson, Bob would, and Douglas we, was that

these were perfectly legitimate activities. I think it incredible

that Glen Mulcaire was on our exclusive contract of �105,000 to

the use of the world, and that people like Andy Coulson did not

know what he was up to cross off food you think should carry out

this investigation? We have had some discussion the Strathclyde

police. We would like to see a close working relationship between

Strathclyde Police, because if the offence was committed, allegations

have to be investigated. And nobody is above the law. If a mistake was

made in the High Court then it was a very serious mistake and it

should be rectified. If it was a lie, then people have gone to

prison for a lot less. These are serious allegations and no one is

above the law, especially these newspaper executives. Mr Gilligan

was told because he had a public profile from being a politician. If

individuals to work for the News of the world have conspired to break

the lock and put that the course of justice and tamper with police

evidence then these are criminal offences that should be

investigated and prosecuted. Central to this issue was that

during this year and trial, we asked the question, where are the

e-mails, from Paul Bird, and the lawyer who work for the News of the

world at the time and we were told these e-mails had been lost in an

archive in mom by. Tom Watson contacted the information

commissioner's office who told them that that could be in breach of

legislation and born be old, after the trial, lawyers from Wapping

came forward and said that was a mistake from Paul Bird, these e-

mails are presents in clopping. The and now what we see is a trail of

e-mails being disclosed that say that there has been cash payments

to police officers, illegal activities carried out, phone

hacking, and it has grown arms and legs. Up until now, what we have

been concentrating on his England. Many people dismissed Tommy

Sheridan's claims awful nagging despite the fact that everything he

said has turned out to be correct because of my concern is that this

and other documents contain scores of names of individuals and

personalities who spoke to me. problem for you is that you may

well get the investigation that you want, but it is not entirely clear,

although obviously it was entangled in Tommy Sheridan's case, it is not

clear why having an investigation into the alleged perjury of Andy

Coulson or the other stuff, does Tommy Sheridan any good because

none of these things were particularly important aspects of

the case against them. With the greatest respect, that is your

opinion. But he went to prison by several months because the judge in

the case ruled it was critical to the case and the defence... It was

important that the jury should know whether individuals had been paid

large sums of money, whether phones had been hacked, whether there was

pressure to change evidence, or to give evidence. One of the

individuals, we only got and full of e-mails and and Atkinson's Mr

Sheridan was found not guilty but we were denied e-mails right across

the board by the use of the world. It was like getting blood out of a

stone. At the end of the day, they are not above the law and must

stand accountable. Now for something that's not actually

completely different. From time to time on this programme we like to

interview people just because they're interesting. On this

occasion, as you'll see, the interviewee also seems to have been

strangely prescient. On Christmas morning, the stone was gone. The

Dean of Westminster called the disappearance an act of sacrilege.

Ian Hamilton came to public attention because of something he

did at Christmas in 1950 when he was a student. The taking of the

Stone of Destiny from Westminster Abbey was the single most important

public demonstration in the 20th century. These initial support to

stand for just as for Scotland and support the theory that the work --

the disappearance of the stone is the work of extreme Scottish

nationalists. Ian Hamilton pursued along and make a successful career

as an advocate. He has remained an outspoken Buckler uncritical

supporter of independence and has not been short of words of advice

for the Scottish legal establishment, and more recently as

a shareholder in RBS, he tried to pursue it through the court after

the financial crash. Ian Hamilton came into our Glasgow studios

recently, to discuss his view of the state of the nation. I put it

to him first that the SNP had just won a stunning majority, in an

election in which he proudly claimed he had not voted. That is

so, because there is no worthwhile opposition to the SNP. And in a

democracy there has got to be an opposition, even if it is just one

person like myself. You cannot have known that before the election.

That was sticking out a mile that the Unionists were nowhere, and by

that I mean the Conservatives and liberals, for goodness sake. That

was a save none vote which allowed me to say that what I think the SNP

should have been doing and, at that time, were not. What were you

trying to say? I was trying to say that we should be preparing for

independence because independence does not mean a step into the dark,

as you people in the BBC tried to portray it. Independence means

going from precedent to precedent, as Edmond Parkes said more than 200

years ago and that was what the SNP has started to do now. Not because

of me but because of the overwhelming majority at the last

election. What is it you think Alex Salmond should have been doing, at

least before the election? should have been telling us what

independence meant. It is not a step off the edge of a cliff.

Independence has been something we have been preparing for, for the

last 150 years. 150 years ago the secretary of state a Scotland

appointed. 100 years ago, the Secretary of State became a Cabinet

minister. 50, 60 years ago, four ministers of State appointed, 19th

of the, the Scottish civil-service moved to Edinburgh. More power

devolved to Scotland. Then you get evolution. The next step is so

obvious, so obviously, the right to choose a non-French roundabout

dollars and throughout the world. Apart from be known for your

activities based around the Stone of Scone, you were a lawyer. And

you're not very happy with the state of the leadership of the

Scottish legal system. You can say that, in spades. I was understating

the case. Yes, our human rights record in Scotland, since

devolution, has been abominable. I would blame it particularly on two

people, Angelina, the recently- retired Lord Advocate, and the

minister of justice, Kenny MacAskill. You see, and Juliana

came up out of the Fiscal Service, where her duty is to get

convictions. The duty of the Lord Advocate is not to get convictions,

the Lord Advocate is there to protect the public, and the offices

there to protect us against wrongful prosecutions as well, not

just to get convictions to satisfy the red top newspapers and the red

tops and the BBC, who blamed the administration if they do not get

enough convictions. If a high- profile marker goes on salt, the

red tops plane the police and the administration and then say that

Are you saying that in some of these very high profile cases where

the judicial system has been overruled, the slopping out

business for example, that it was there at Scottish system that was

at fault? Yes, that is what I am saying. The slopping out system was

the fault of what is his name, Wallace, and he should have been

spending money on Updating presence. That is in the past. What is in the

present this that had a business, up their right of every one of us

charged with an offence to get legal advice before her. And I

would go further and said while we are being interviewed by the police.

That is just such a basic right. You see, people say it is being

soft on crime for lawyers to see accused people. It is not. The real

criminals, their heads of departments of crime, at no their

legal rights. They do not have to be told them. If your son or mine

it was roped into something he did not do, he needs legal advice. Look

at Keele Sheridan. She took legal advice and it did not say anything.

And then what happened to her? She was accused as though she had been

due -- treated by terrorists because she just sat looking at the

wall when a police meant -- when a policeman sat howling questions at

her. So when you see Alex Salmond saying that the main issue end it

these various cases is that it is wrong for the Supreme Court in

Britain to be involved and that is the issue, are you saying that is

not the real issue at all? Yes, I do say that. Alex Salmond is wrong

there. The administration of justice has not yet caught up with

devilish and. I would have an end of it -- independent advocate as

Lord Advocate and I would have a real tough person as minister for

justice. We need a different view on our Minister of Justice. Do you

know that only 4% of the profession think that the present Minister of

Justice should hold his job? Mind you, I would be worried if it was

the other way about. If every lawyer thought the Minister of

Justice was doing a great job, you bet I would be complaining about

that. But really, Kenny MacAskill has got a solicitor's mind for what

is a statesman problem -- statesman's problem. The biggest

legal case in Scotland in the last decade was the Tommy Sheridan --

Tommy Sheridan case. You became quite friendly with them, did she

not? And thought that despite what a lot of people thought was a lot

of evidence, they got a bad deal. Yes. And Tommy Sheridan's appeal is

still ongoing. Weekend top about the will's case because her case

was substantially a scandal. Nobody is controlling the police. In

Argyll, if there is a fatal accident, the close the road for

sex, eight or 10 hours because they say if it could be the scene of a

crime. -- six. You would think that such an important thing like that

would be done only by an Act of Parliament, but it is not. Chief

Police officers and Superintendents themselves decided this. And then

when it came to Tommy Sheridan's wife's case, perjury, what did they

do? The interviewed everyone who spoke up for the Sheridan's,

including heart, and cheated all of those people who spoke against the

News of the World as though as though the word that, that, there

blue eyed people. There was no equality of investigation. If a

crime has been committed, the police should look on each side and

in this case they did not. More than that, the News of the World

bought a witness for �200,000 and handed his DVD, which was supposed

to hold a confession, handed that over to the Lord Advocate. The

weakness that has characterised this office of Lord Advocate, she

used that and then having put Sheridan's wife through all the

trauma, they have a three-year for Dr and putting her through that

trauma, after all that they said it is not in the public interest to

prosecute. A more general point. The poor and deprived in society. I

know that one of your views is that no one really, including the SNP,

actually represent any more of people who are disadvantaged.

This is why I became friendly with Tommy Sheridan. When we meet we do

not talk about politics, we do not agree, but one thing we definitely

agree about is that there is a dispossessed layer of society. It

may not be because they are all but short of money, all will lots of

them are, but they are deprived of hope. You do not think any of the

parties speak for these people. The no, certainly not Labour's --

Labour. When did Labour ever speak for the poor? You became famous all

that years ago for stealing the Stone of Destiny which became seen

as at symbolic act. If you were to suggest to someone an equivalent

action would be -- what an equivalent action would be now, of

what would that be? I think I was just lucky. Everybody who was

anything for a couple of hundred years has said that we must get

that stone back. I was just the lucky one. I was just lucky enough

to do it. Mind you, I never expected it to be talked about 60

years later. But I pressed the button at the right time. I got fed

up with it. But on the other hand, who else from my class of people in

Paisley has had a reception in the Great Hall of Edinburgh Castle? Or

for that matter, been interviewed by a distinguished interviewer,

Gordon, who has not thrust his own ideas down my throat? I thought you

claimed I'd do that to everyone all the time? Well, you have made an

exception tonight. Just you and you mention that, you're going to see

the Queen, are you not? When I was Rector of Aberdeen University it

was a 500th anniversary and a list of the people to be presented to

the Queen was read out. I was there. And to the astonishment of the

university court, I said I am willing for the Queen to be

presented to me. But I represent a civilisation as rector of the

University far, far older than the House of Windsor. So there were two

possessions into the great cathedral up there. Mind, but led

by the Lord Advocate -- Lord Advocate, the other at led by the

royals. And mine was the bigger. think that is an excellent place to

leave it. Facts Mac -- Thank you very much.

There is a longer episode of that on the website.

A quick look at tomorrow's papers. The Scotsman says Sheridan

jailbreak trial was unsigned. The Times says Parliament puts