07/07/2011 Newsnight Scotland

A Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, the News of the World scandal lands

with a resounding thud in the midst of Scotland's justice system. The

Crown Office orders a review into the Tommy Sheridan trial. But in

the light of some of the allegations made today, should it

order a much wider investigation? And what effect will the demise of

the New Of The World have on Scotland's already troubles

newspaper market? And days before the Philips Review

is published into the fatal Chinook Helicopter crash, we have an

exclusive film about the Good evening. Prosecutors have

asked Strathclyde police to investigate witness statements from

the Tommy Sheridan perjury trial, after fresh allegations in the News

Of The World hacking scandal. Three journalists associated with the

paper gave evidence at the trial, including its former editor Andy

Coulson. Mr Sheridan's lawyer and a senior MP have presented a list of

names to police of people they claim had their phones hacked. Our

political correspondent Raymond Buchanan has been following the

story. Please be aware, this report contains some flash photography.

Remember this? Tommy Sheridan framed in a perjury trial. I have

fought the power of News International all my political life

and I make no apologies for taking on the might of Rupert Murdoch.

Amongst those questioned by Tommy Sheridan in the witness box was the

former editor of the UK edition of the News Of The World. Andy Coulson

was asked five the former MSP, did the news of the world pay corrupt

police officers? But to my knowledge, was the answer. It is

now being suggested that he did authorise payments. The editor of

the Scottish edition claimed in court in else about the case had

been lost. It is now being reported that they could have been made

available after all. The former Scottish news editor Douglas Whyte

also told the court he was and a practitioner of the so-called dark

arts. Telephone-tapping. Today, prosecutors asked detectives a

Strathclyde to examine the evidence given by a certain witnesses in

this perjury trial. It follows the scandal surrounding the News Of The

World in recent days. Police have been asked to come up with a

preliminary assessment but this is not a criminal inquiry. That

decision was taken before the News Of The World was axed. It was after

the latest damning allegation. It suggested the tabloid had hacked

into the voice mails of relatives of dead servicemen. A it is

disgraceful, shocking. How low can someone actually go to do that to a

family member who has lost someone? It and think they could scoop any

lower. They are the lowest of the lowest. You have five new

messages... The phone hacking scandal has been dominated by

revelations from south of the border but today another question

may have found an answer. A dossier prepared by Tommy Sheridan's lawyer

was handed to police. It contained evidence given by their editors and

also a list of scores of potential Scottish hacking victims. Nine

months ago, we were provided with an and redacted dossier of private

information access by News Of The World, of individuals such as

football players, heart surgeons, so stars, athletes, TV stars, TV

chefs, Olympic athletes, their spouses, the Lord Mayor's and even

a murder victim. We will reveal more of this trade in the week...

Yesterday, Tom Watson suggested Tommy Sheridan's perjury conviction

was unsound. The jury were not in full possession of the facts of the

case and therefore, I believe that the decision they made his unsound

and Tommy Sheridan may be an innocent man. During the course of

a long a three-month trial, dozens of witnesses were summoned to the

High Court in Glasgow. Not all of them worked for the News Of The

World. Tommy Sheridan's defence was there is a grand conspiracy against

him. All of them, he insisted, were out to do him in. But there were

other witnesses who were independent had told the jury they

believed Tommy Sheridan was a liar. Something, in their verdict, the

jury agreed with when he was convicted of perjury in December of

last year. But his team were celebrating the demise of the News

Of The World, a pig which pursued the former MSP relentlessly. -- the

newspaper pursued. A what I want to see is a root-and-branch

investigation into every journalist that worked on that paper. A the

Guardian are reporting that Andy Coulson will be arrested tomorrow.

If that happens, it will be by officers from the Metropolitan

Police. Any Scottish investigation is still in its infancy. I'm joined

in our Edinburgh studio by Ken Macdonald, the man in Scotland in

charge of The Information Commissioner's Office which

oversees data protection. Some of the allegations being made

today, it is not your concern, the allegations about perjury in the

Tommy Sheridan trial, but these allegations that scores of people

in Scotland were targeted by phone hacking practices, that is in your

I am sorry, we seem to not be able to hear you. Try again. We'll come

back to you. I am joined now by Steven Raeburn,

the Editor of the Legal Magazine The Firm and the former managing

director of news international for Scotland and Ireland, Colin

McClatchie. What are you tried it out of this? What they were looking

for is to have a successful appeal of his conviction for perjury. The

chances of getting a successful appeal statistically are about 20-1.

Only about 5% of those cases are actually successful. What they will

be tried wanted to the Appeal Court is that the information which has

come out since, beginning with the Milly Dowler case, and the light

that that may cast on the perjury trial, they will try as one do that

that may have influenced the ultimate verdict of the jury. If

that was the case, could the jury have perhaps reached a different

decision? That being the case, an appeal could be granted. Sheridan

could be released. The other side of this is should there be... Well,

there are allegations of perjury against Andy Coulson. That would

not necessarily mean that the Sheridan conviction was unsafe,

would it? Absolutely. The testimony of course and was only one aspect

of the entire case. -- Andy Coulson. There was more to the case than

that. Perjury charges do not often follow either civil cases, what

happened in the case of Tommy Sheridan, who had successfully sued

for defamation and was arising from that, perjury trials are not common

in Scotland at all. You would need to have a justifiable public

interest to bring one. Although, as we have seen this week, the level

of public interest in this case over all and all of its ever-

expanding testicles, -- tentacles,... I've got to speak to

you in a minute. I can get Ken McDonald back. We are doing better

now. Scores of people is God and they have been subjected to a legal

phone hacking and this takes things into your court, doesn't it? That

is right. We are interested in how the numbers are so many people were

given to the journalists who were hacking into the phones. This

reflects a research project we did in 2005 which we have presented to

the Westminster Parliament, what price privacy, what we exposed the

trade in personal information and put pressure on Parliament to

increase the penalties available to the courts in any prosecutions.

Presumably, from what you are saying, which you agree that

someone, whether it be Strathclyde police or another agency, ought to

be able to have a wider investigation than the narrow remit

the Crown Office has asked Strathclyde police to let out

today? Evenley been asked to wit -- review witness statements in

Sheridan trial, which does not get us to the things we are talking

about. There may well be some fall- out from the investigations

Strathclyde's pleads -- Strathclyde police are doing. Clearly, there is

a master of public interest in the story and the effect that it is

haven't on the society as a whole. We have seen these stories today

about the relatives of soldiers killed in war, murder victims at a

tree. The distress it is causing them. There are various aspects to

this which we have serious concerns about Foster was a not clear about

is if it turns out to be the case that there are people in Scotland

to have been the victims of this, they are not going to be

investigated by Strathclyde police reviewing the evidence and the

Tommy Sheridan trial. That's a different issue. You think not only

that these things should be investigated but that actually

there should be some exemplary jail sentences for people responsible

for this. But presumably the London police investigation does not cover

people in Scotland were the victims of this. What I want to know from

you have the information commissioner here is whether you

believe that these potential victims, their cases are being

investigated and if not who she you think should be investigating them?

In cases such as this were there is an overlap between our investigator

its powers and the Crown Office in Scotland, we would normally revert

to the Crown Office and the Scottish authorities to take

forward any investigation and prosecution. There have been, in

the recent past, a number of what we call section 55 offences that

have been prosecuted in the Scottish court. There was one India

this year in Tayside were a police officer and had passed on

information she had obtained from the police national computer. She

was tried and found guilty but was actually sentenced to it here of

imprisonment because she was found guilty of attempting to pervert the

course of justice. It is the small corner consequences we have to

consider. So you would agree that there should be some sort of

investigation into some of these claims? I think we will have to

wait and see what the outcome of the Strathclyde investigation is.

Hang on, and sorry to repeat myself but, the allegations include scores

of people in Scotland may be being victims of for an Hacking's. But as

it is do with a Tommy Sheridan case and there for a review of witness

statements in the Sheraton case, one that may Melby desirable, is

irrelevant to this broader issue. And asking you to tell us that she

would like to see these broader allegations investigated. We will

work with the of the authorities in Scotland to from it the best

solution to this. We have to look at it, whilst you are questioning

the Scottish issue, data protection is a UK Reserve matter and I think

they will probably have to take it Your offers has the power to

initiate prosecutions? We have the power, out with Scotland, in

Scotland it is the Crown Office and the Procurator Fiscal who are the

sole public prosecutors. So, your man in London can say, right, does

he have to go to the CPS to get them to bring forward a

prosecution? We do it in conjunction with the police and we

take forward prosecutions ourselves in these jurisdictions. In Scotland,

what we tend to do is leave it to local police forces in Scotland to

investigate and report to the fiscal, but we have on occasion

gone to the procurator fiscal ourselves. So you do not have any

active role in Scotland at all? You are not going to initiate any

inquiries, you are not calling specifically for the Crown Office

to investigate these allegations and you do not have any power to

initiate prosecutions? We do not have power to initiate prosecutions

in Scotland. But the statements you are making about the number of

Scots and others alleged to have had their numbers obtained and

phones possibly hat, we should look at this in the wider scope of it

being a wider, UK regulatory authority, because this issue is

being pursued, UK-white. I don't understand what it means for you to

see you looking at it in the UK Wade context. Are you going to ask

the Information Commissioner in London to ask that the Crown Office

in Scotland investigates these things? We take these things for

work as the UK regulatory authority. We will, on occasion, approach the

procurator fiscal in Scotland because we do not have powers to

prosecute. Thank you very much for joining us. Back on this legal

issue, will this go any further? We are still not quite clear if anyone

at the moment has any responsibility for investigating

these wider allegations from Aamer Anwar, but if there is anything in

them...? The role of the Crown Office is crucial. They are the

prosecuting authority in Scotland. If anyone discharged it is up to

them to initiate that. -- anyone is charged. In relation to this

Sheridan case, the role of the Crown Office was questioned by Ian

Hamilton QC. Their role today was fascinating because they announced

they would ask Strathclyde police to look at some of this, but only

one day after Aamer Anwar announced he was having this press conference.

What would have to happen is the crown of us would have to identify

where these alleged victims are, contact police forces in those

areas, and say, we would ask you to investigate this. Or the police can

have this done and refer it back to the Crown Office for charges.

slight change of topic - the demise of the News of the world - what

impact will this have in Scotland, because we have a newspaper market

that is already a rather troubled? This is a market that has declined

25% in the last five years. One title going out of the market, the

crucial thing will be, what does News International put in its

place? There is speculation that there will be a 7th edition of the

Sun, called the Sun on Sunday, they cannot caught the sun the sun

because there is already one title called that, in Newcastle. -- the

Sunday Sun. This is just to defend people like James Murdoch and

Rebekah Wade, then, the News of the World been closed down? The News of

the World has huge overheads, it has a quarter of the journalists

that the Sun has for one day a week, its sales are declining, so there

were big problems with it, so the issue that News International had

been looking at is to say, is it a more cost-effective alternative,

and that might be to scrap the News of the World, and produce the Sun,

seven days. It is a point people have been making about the sun in

England that applies to the Scottish Sun, marvellous people

though it may be, people are saying that you cannot mistake what is a

successful week a newspaper, and give it a Sunday batch, because the

history of doing that is not that success will. People who bought the

News of the World would not necessarily by up the sun on Sunday.

The Sunday Herald, neither of those titles emulated the levels of sales

of the daily papers. But in it a declining market with an

unprofitable newspaper, the second thing that happened this week was

the News of the World's reputation which has been shredded in a very

short period of time. I have no doubt that the background of its

lack of profitability would have been a factor in deciding to close

it. Isn't that bigger factor ultimately that, newspapers,

including in America, the Wall Street Journal, it is less than 15%

of NewsCorp. The bigger picture, is there much, much bigger holdings in

television, including Sky, from the Murdoch empire point of view,

perhaps sacrificing the News of the world, sad though it is for the

people working there who did not have anything to do with this, but

from that point of view of the Murdoch family is it really that

important? It is an issue for them in this country right now. I would

guess that the course of action they have taken, not the most

popular course of action, but nevertheless, the background of a

lack of profitability, there is an inevitability to it. We have to

leave it there. Thank you both very much indeed. There's an expectation

that next week will bring the Lord Philip review of the fatal Chinook

helicopter crash on the Mull of Kintyre in 1994. It's thought it

may contradict earlier inquiries which blamed the pilots for the

accident, which killed 29 people. At the same time campaigners are

still pursuing the case of the Nimrod which came down in

Afghanistan in 2006, although the fleet has been grounded. They are

the latest examples of bereaved families taking on the MoD. Derek

Bateman reports. They were two of the worst fatal accidents in modern

military history. A Chinook helicopter carrying 29 senior

intelligence personnel struck ahead land in the Mull of Kintyre and

pledged to the ground. It was 1994. And a number a reconnaissance

flight crashed in flames in Afghanistan into doesn't done six,

whilst refuelling, killing 14 people. The Chinook inquiry blamed

the dead pilots for gross negligence as controversy raged

amongst their families and the campaigners who pointed to dubious

safety records and controls and electronic maintenance. We do, a

failure of leadership and parodies in the UK in mode de were blame for

the number of catastrophe and the Government apologised. In pursuit

of financial savings, the MoD and the RAF allowed their focus on

safety to suffer. The result was that no Nimrod aircraft is flying,

and Kinloss year base has been closed with the loss of 2,000 jobs.

The board of inquiry into the MoD was followed by an inquiry. That it

was lost was because of a systemic breach of the military covenant

brought about by significant failings on the part of the MoD,

British Aerospace Systems and Qinetiq. Was there a systematic --

was there a systematic failure to take heed of safety problems you

before the catastrophe? Former aircraft engineer who worked on the

Nimrod and who advises the breed families, thinks so. The problem I

have is that this only goes back as far as 1998 when this report was

published on the Nimrod and that is like a starting point, and the

report writer says that air worthiness deteriorated from that

point onwards. Now that is not true when you compare what he said that

with it the number report and the tunic report, these are very

similar, there are calls are the same. And yet it appears that no

one took action. He is convinced that the danger signs lie in the

official reports on board aircraft. Although they are two separate

accidents, the root cause is the same, and that is what I am saying

is this systemic failings of the air worthiness added is revealing

of the culture in the mid- 90s. That is not just his expertise as

an engineer but Mr Jones will lies on. He is basing his concerns on

the limited known context of the Nimrod air worthiness report.

have asked for a copy of this Nimrod air worthiness report

through freedom of information it. The MoD has come back and said that

we cannot find it. I have asked for an internal review and they might

have done that and still cannot find it, which I find incredible.

Here is the report that was used as the starting-point back for the

declining airworthiness, and we cannot find this report. Next week

we expect a new inquiry, chaired by Lord Taylor, to be published,

possibly to vindicate the Chinook pilots, leading to the

airworthiness of the helicopter again being questioned. That would

turn attention on this safety regime surrounding done and rot. As

a streamlined management system is introduced into their ministry it

should herald a more open approach. These latest doubts about safety

and cover ups will be a reminder to many that the old civil service

culture is still alive in Whitehall. Tomorrow's front pages, all talking

about a News of the World. The paper that died of shame, says the

Daily Record. The Times says hacked to death. After one and a than 60

years, the News of the world shut down. The Daily Telegraph, another

good one, goodbye cruel World. Britain's biggest newspaper is

closed down. And it says that Andy Coulson will be arrested today. The