11/07/2011 Newsnight Scotland

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: The News Corp scandal gets worse and

worse. Where will it go next? And Major and Salmond on the same side?

An unlikely political pairing as the former Tory Prime Minister

comes out in favour of devomax for Scotland. I found this the most

incredible intervention in recent years. For John Major to say this,

this was the man who said independence was sleep walking

towards independence, now he's saying have the whole lot.

Good evening. As you've just been hearing, the Murdoch paper scandals

continue to plummet to new depths. continue to plummet to new depths.

A spokesman for the former Prime Let's cross to Millbank, where the

former Liberal Democrat leader, Sir Menzies Campbell has just come from

the House of Commons. Thank you for coming in. What is the attitude in

the House tonight? It's slightly calmer than it was earlier, when it

was pretty explosive. Jeremy Hunt, the Secretary of State with

responsibility for newspapers, came to make a statement. Eblgd, -- Ed

Miliband tackled him strongly, in particular about the absence of

David Cameron. But this really is a rehearsal for the big picture on

Wednesday, when we're going to have a full scale debate about these

issues. Of course, it will follow hard upon Prime Minister's

Questions. You can take it that Wednesday will be yet another of

these quite extraordinary Parliamentary occasions which have

all blown up in the last ten days. In terms of what comes out of that

practically, you cannot legislate retrospectively in all of this. The

argument now is that the law applied very strictly would still

allow the BSkyB bid to go through. What can you do to adequately

channel the public's deep concern about what's going on here? Let me

just say, the public's deep concern is to be found in the e-mail

accounts of every MP. At one stage I had one e-mail a minute coming in

saying "You've got to do something about this." You're quite right you

cannot have retrospective legislation. The decision by Mr

Murdoch to withdraw the undertakings, this is a bit

technical, withdraw the undertakings that Jeremy Hunt had

been relying on, has in effect, referring the matter back to the

Competition Commission. Jeremy Hunt said in the House of Commons today

then the Competition Commission would have to look at questions of

fit and proper. That's not the only avenue, because Ofcom, that's the

body that regulates broadcasting, has a continuing duty to raise the

question of fit and proper, if it thinks that someone for whom they

have responsibility has ceased to be fit and proper. So, these are

two parallel tracks and if the idea on the part of Mr Murdoch was to

put this into touch for several months, then I don't think that's

necessarily going to be successful. But in the public mind, the fit and

proper test has delivered Robert Maxwell, Conrad Black. Do you think

it's time to look again at who owns papers here, for example, in

America, where there's all this free market, they would never allow

this level of foreign ownership of newspapers. It's one of the

paradoxs, the United States, the land of the free, the land of

private enterprise should have a more restrictive regime than we

have here. I think you have to be very careful, I know I'm talking to

a journalist, you have to be very careful about regulation. What we

don't want to do is create stirks in which newspapers simply become

the puppet of Government or are too frightened even to use their

particular powers and indeed to fulfil their responsibilities to

help the scrutiny of Government, but there's no o doubt that the

Press Complaints Commission is generally regarded as having failed.

It's also the case that the public, which I've rarely referred to, is

so fired up about this, that unless something is seen to be done and

something seen to be done which is effective, there will be a huge

amount of anger and disillusionment. You have known Gordon Brown

personally for many years. It seems with the latest revelations about

the sort of information which was sought and published, particularly

relating to his baby son's medical records, what is your reaction to

that and what do you think would be the family reaction? Gordon Brown

has been a friend of mine for a long time. Our constituencies

adjoin each other. I simply cannot imagine how I would feel if there

had been that degree of intrusion, the mixture of anger, of hurt, of

frustration I'm not surprised the matters have been referred to the

police. That therefore inhibits comment. But I would ask this

question: What sort of people think it is legitimate to examine the

medical records of the child of the Prime Minister for the purpose of

getting a story? Just exactly what kind of people think that that is a

proper exercise of the press freedom which is so important in

this country. Thank you very much. With me now is the political

commentator and former advisor to Gordon Brown, Paul Sinclair.

Following on from what Sir Menzies Campbell was saying, Alastair

Campbell has conceded that once everybody was in power they did

everything they could to ingratiate themselves with the Murdoch press.

What does it say about the relationship with Gordon Brown?

think that nobody, everybody, every politician wants good press and

wants good relations with every publisher, but I don't think

anybody really understood what was happening here. I don't think

anybody realised, I mean, News International tell you they didn't

realise it themselves, the level of criminality of widespread hacking

and breaking into people's privacy on this scale. Nobody understood

that. I think if they had, relationships would have been very

different. This was published when Gordon Brown's baby was a matter of

months old. He subsequently went to Rebekah Brooks wedding. Do you

think that, for good reasons, he was too afraid at that time to

actually challenge the Murdoch press, if he was as distressed as

he must have been? It is very, very difficult if you are invited to

have a relationship with somebody as powerful as Rebekah Brooks to

say no. I will reject that relationship. The power, the almost

monopoly that the Murdoch press have had, which now seems to be

coming to an end, meant that even more difficult for politicians. One

of the things, you know, people ask why did Gordon Brown not take

action when he was Prime Minister against this. I have to say, the

last couple of years in the Labour Government we were behind in the

polls. Can you imagine what people would have said if we'd tried to do

something about the ownership of the press while we were behind or

while Gordon was unpopular. It wasn't tenable. But something must

be done now. Back to Millbank now. And James Forsyth, the political

editor of the Spectator. Thank you for coming in. In your analysis of

where this is with David Cameron, do you think he's been behind the

curve on this so far? I think Prime Minister's are like cats and have

nine lives. David Cameron has used one of them up in this scandal. He

desperately needs get on the front foot in the next few days. What,

though, in terms of what you're hearing from the backbench to be

way sensible way forward then. The idea that Rupert Murdoch might be

persuaded to abandon the BSkyB all together. Is thater to with the

backbench? There was a telling moment today. An MP said I think

Rupert Murdoch should drop the bid. That would be a decent thing to do.

Normallyer to MPs wouldn't agree with that sentiment, but a lot

seemed to today, including those who are loyal and cles to the

leadership. That's an issue for him. They'll be thinking what he needs

to do is use the fact he is Prime Minister to move on the inquiries

front. He needs to get these going and stress the police about the

police is crucial here. If you have people who are paid to protect the

Royal Family, selling information to tabloid newspapers, that is

deeply worrying. That needs to be addressed quickly.

Also an astonishing outburst from the police today saying they felt

their inquiries into that issue, were undermined by leaks. It's

obvious who they were trying to point the finger at there? There's

only two people involved here, that's News International and the

police. The police say it's not us leaking this. That's going to be

interesting. There's a challenge for Cameron there. The Gordon Brown

revelations show how completely reluctant politicians of some

stripes were to confront News International about its practices.

It is remarkable that avenues international if Gordon Brown

believe that News International did this to his family, that he carried

on as normal with them. Paul? think it's very, very difficult

considering the position that Gordon Brown was in that he would

somehow wage war on News International, considering the

strength and power it did, particularly in a personal way.

Let's think about this. This is a man who his first child was lost

tragically. Somebody at News International decides it's a good

story to break that a little boy has SIS tick fibrosis. What's

Gordon Brown going to do? Is he going to take on News International

because of a story about his son that he would rather have been kept

private. I think he would have exposed his family to even more. I

don't think it was soured is on Gordon Brown's part. Is it your

impression that all of this stops at the boreder or is that naive?

think it's a nigh jeef and comforting thought that this

doesn't happen up here. When a curious position for News

International. I don't believe that newspapers decide elections. But

News International could have made the difference between the SNP

being the largest party and having an overall majority. In May 2010 it

said vote for the Conservatives. 12 months later it's saying vote for

the party that advocates independence. I would like to know

what made them think that way and I would like to know how close

executives at News International are with counterparts in England.

Everyone would say the sun is good of seeing the way public opinion

was going. Perhaps that raises the issue about the actual influence of

newspapers. Does all this have to change the relationship between all

political parties now and the newspapers in Scotland? I think the

influence of newspaper sz a little bit understated. What's really

going to kill newspapers influence in politics is people aren't

reading them. Even if we had a mission from News International

that they just back the winner. That would be interesting no hear.

James, do you think in some way David Cameron now has to absolutely

distance himself from Rupert Murdoch in a way that Ed Miliband

has tried to do, whether he succeeds in that in the public mind

or not. What does David Cameron have to do in the future about his

relationship with Rupert Murdoch? One of the underexplored angles of

this story is that Number Ten are furious with the way that they see

Andy Coulson has been hung out to dry by news intertharbl. There is a

distancing going on because of the way that Number Ten believe that

News International has behaved towards Andy Coulson. Thank you

very much. Carry on. I don't think the relationship between Rupert

Murdoch and British politicians will be ever the same again after

this scandal. It's changed now forever.

Thank you for that. Paul Sinclair, thank you very much for coming in.

Now when the Scottish Parliament opened in 1999, who would have

thought the former Prime Minister, John Major, would one day be

calling for its powers to be extended. He says the current set

up is unsustainable and only full fiscal autonomy for Scotland will

protect the union. What would that mean forts Conservative Party, both

north and south of the border. Who would have predicted this

pairing at Wimbledon, the First Minister Alex Salmond chatting like

old friends with John Major, the man who argued so deeply in favour

of protecting the union that he declared he was fighting the Battle

of Britain. But things change, including opinions. The former

Prime Minister, who once fought against devolution, wants powers to

against devolution, wants powers to But this is a tactical game. In

exchange for greater powers, there would be fewer Scottish seats in

Westminster, making it easier for the Conservatives to win. I found

this the most incredible intervention in recent years. For

John Major to say this, it's absolute havers. He said

independence was sleep walking towards independence. Now he's

saying let's go the whole way. I can't understand what he's playing

at. Unless he's completely sick of us. What do the opinions of a

former Prime Minister tell us about what's going on inside Downing

Street today. Well, if you believe some commentators, quite a lot.

John Major and David Cameron are close and it's been suggested that

John Major has aired these views for David Cameron to test out

for David Cameron to test out public opinion. David Cameron has

already hinted his Government may beat the SNP to the punch and call

their own referendum on independence. But while some

English stories would welcome cutting ties, the in Holyrood the

party line is to support the union. There's always room for discussion.

Devolution is a process. Whether or not we have now reached the stage

of devolution I don't know. We must be willing to look at things. The

Jeanie came out of the bottle in 1999, and basically I think that

everybody's view is that we should attempt to make the zisting system

work. If that needs to be built upon by changes such as in Scotland

bill, then so be it. The Scottish Tory who is completely against

devolution, has become something of a rare breed. It's very attractive

to Tories in Holyrood for a lot of them. It's also quite attractive to

many of the supporters in the business world. In Scotland, a lot

of business men would sell to grannies for a big reduction in

corporation tax. They cannot be trusted on the union. I'm bound to

say I would rather trust the Labour Party on the union than I would the

Scottish Tories. So where does this-a Unionist Party

when it's moving towards a weaker union? And could this change in

tactics see the Conservatives return to play in Scottish

politics? Still with us in London is the

political editor, James Forsyth, from the Spectator. And in

Edinburgh, the historian Michael Fry. Thank you very much indeed for

coming in. James, to pick up on Sir John Major's speech, to whom is he

talking do you think? Is there any body of opinion that backs that?

There's a growing body of opinion in the Tory party, who argue this:

They say theer to party north of the border will never revive, until

the debate in Scottish politics is about how you raise money as well

as how you spend it. The answer to that question is fiscal autonomy.

At the same time you'd have fewer Scottish seats at Westminster,

making it easier in the current conditions, for theers to to form

mayort governments. There are a large number of people attracted to

this idea. John Major is saying something that people close to

David Cameron think and putting the argument out there and giving it a

shove along and allowing David Cameron to see how opinion reacts

to this. You think he might be testing the water on that? A bit of

outriding here going on. What do you think this will mean to the

grassrootser to vote in Scotland? What will they make of all of this?

It depends whether you're talking about the existing Tory vote in

Scotland, which is still pretty hostile to devolution. There are

people around who take it as the thing to abolish the Scottish

Parliament. But there is still a powerful stream inside the Scottish

Conservative Party which thinks that way. But leaving them aside,

obviously the main task for the Scottish Conservative Party if it's

not just going to waste away, dwindle away to nothing, is to find

new sources of support in the country at large. As we know it's

just been flatlining since 1999. It's failed to increase its vote at

all. It wants to win extra votes, it has to do something. I think it

has to do something big, after three Scottish elections in which

it's made no progress at all. fiscal autonomy allows A particular

Conservative policy to be brought to the fore, a policy very dear to

Conservative hearts that the state is too big and we must seek ways of

limiting the state and expenditure in particular. Fiscal autonomy in

Scotland is the only way in which the Scottish Conservative Party can

tap into that particular account of thinking. Which is present not only

in Conservative voters but also among many other Scots who vote for

other parties at moment. But from what you're saying, can this be

aical cue lated move to outflank Labour, to be seen to be protecting

Scottish interests, that's the perception they would want to put

forward. Is this borne out of clever strategic thinking or

desperation? For the Scottish Conservatives to look more Scottish

than they are already, would not be very difficult. But they're a long

way than appearing more Scottish than the Scottish Labour Party. If

they outflanked Labour that would be a bonus, but I don't think

that's a particular, one of the main aims of this policy. Where it

might help the Conservatives is actually against the Lib Dems. The

Lib Dems were crushed in the latest Scottish election and Lib Dems

mainly occupy suburban or rural Westminster seats, where the

Conservatives might start to make a come back. But I think the main

consideration should be that the Scottish Conservative Party has to

reinvent itself. It's been stagnant Forfar too long. This policy, this

new idea for the Conservatives any way, of fiscal autonomy seems to be

the one big thing, they need something big, the one thing that

might start to turn the tide for them. It's not going to happen

overnight. OK. Fairly briefly, if you don't mind, David Cameron's

comments on the referendum, what was that all about, that actually

it was about government and not political timing. Were you reading

into that? I interviewed David Cameron for the Spectator. He said

look, I want to respect Scotland and respect the Scottish Executive.

I'm not going to call a referendum. But if Alex Salmond wants to turn

this into he needles continuously and then he wants him to respond,

then maybe it should be put to a vote. If you don't want the vote

now, behave. That's the message David Cameron is trying to send to

Alex Salmond. We have to leave this there -- it there. Thank you both

very much. Very quick look at tomorrow's papers. The Daily Record

leading with "Violated, Brown's anguish over how Sun used their

anguish over how Sun used their sick son's medical reports". And in

the Scotsman, Brown's son was target of Murdoch hacking. And it's

saying police protection sold royal contacts. Also the Times, Murdoch