19/07/2011 Newsnight Scotland

Lord MacDonald gave to the Home Affairs Committee whilst you were

having your chat with Rebekah Brooks? Unfortunately not. I am

interested in your reaction. Lord MacDonald, he was hired by eight

News Corporation to look at these e-mails that your committee spent a

long time on, the file that was given to Harbottle and Lewis, and

he told the Home Affairs Committee that when he examined them, it took

him between three and five minutes to realise there was evidence of

serious criminal wrongdoing, and that he probably went to that News

Corporation board who agreed with them and handed the staff to the

police. The impression that was being given was this was something

terribly complicated, Lord MacDonald is implying it was very

simple. We have not had access, but if you are telling me he found that

in five minutes, I find that incredible. The very fact that

Rebekah Brooks is still denying any knowledge of e-mails, I think it is

incredible that she is still behaving in the way she is behaving.

She is avoiding any responsibility. You clearly did not find her

credible at all. But I did not find a credible at all. It is very

difficult when somebody is being asked questions and they simply say

they do not know or they were not there. To suggest that she did not

know what was going on, private investigators were prying into

people's private lives, it is just incredible. At one stage we were

told the News of the World management team gets a sum of money

and she hands it to them, allows the managing editor to get on with

it. I find that incredible. raised the Tommy Sheridan Mafia

twice today. -- Tommy Sheridan court case. What are you driving

at? I understand you are saying there is wrong information given to

the trial. Are you saying there is some question mark over the safety

of the conviction of Tommy Sheridan? I am not a legal expert,

but it is about justice. I am not defending Tommy Sheridan, but if

evidence was withheld from the jury, it was an 826 board, so if evidence

was withheld, it is right and proper that should be revisited. --

8-6 vote. I am not supporting Tommy Sheridan, but that is the reason.

It now also appears that Neil Wallis, the former deputy editor of

the News of the World, was advising Andy Coulson when he was running

the Conservative Party in the lead- up to the last election. That came

out this evening. What is your reaction to that? I have not heard

that before, but it is an evolving situation, changing by the hour. It

is very difficult to keep up with what is going on. The question of

senior politicians talking to News Corporation and senior policemen,

it must be reviewed. That will only happen with a fit and proper

judicial inquiry. If Rupert Murdoch has the empire he has, the

influence he says he has, there is something wrong. Thank you very

much. I am joined from Westminster by Stewart Hosie. Stewart Hosie,

what do you think we have learned today that we did not know already?

I am not sure there has been an awful lot more light shone on the

matter. A lot we knew already, but at least it was confirmed. The one

thing that did strike me was the degree of contrition they all

showed. I think we know this is a serious problem, not just for News

Corporation, but for them. They work extremely contrite, and

understandably so. There was extreme eloquence when it came to

apologising. Slightly less eloquence when it came to

explaining exactly how the situation happened. Indeed, and Jim

Sheridan is right to some extent that some of the questions were not

answered in a way that some of the committee members would have

expected. That may be due to the fact there is ongoing police

investigations, we will have to wait and see, but I certainly think

a little more clarity might have been helpful. Where does this go

now? In parliamentary terms, you will break up for the summer. That

is the end of these committees. is not, there will be far more of

these in the future. Although it was News International today, and

there was a feeding frenzy, if we go back to the Operation Motorman

in 2006, there were dozens of newspapers, hundreds of journalists,

and thousands of data are breaches. I think they were right to have

this inquiry, plus the second investigation, and the police work.

There is a long way to go, more stones to be turned over. We will

then understand what is going on throughout the sector. I understand

that, but I meant in a more immediate sense. As I understand it,

this was the last day of hearings by these committees. Jim Sheridan

was telling me that they would write this up, but it is unlikely

that a written report from the media committee will be produced

before Parliament returns in September, by which time, the way

things are going, anything they say in that report will be awfully --

hopelessly outdated. Last year I recall we had a Treasury select

committee with the Governor of the Bank of England after Parliament

had stopped. I am sure if the committee chairman was determined,

then extra sessions would be had. The key thing here is that this

have -- let us have the judge led inquiry, and look not just at News

International but is industrial- strength phone hacking, the link

between the media and the police and senior politicians, and try to

find a solution. We cannot go on the way we're going on. Thank you

very much. Neither James Murdoch or Rupert Murdoch seemed to know what

was going on. The met Commissioner did not know what was going on, and

Number Ten did not want to know about the progress of the police

inquiry into hacking. We look at a day that raised more questions than

answers. The hacking scandal has grown up some interesting questions

for those in the media, politics, and the police force. Today, the

Murdochs appeared before MPs to explain the operation at News

International. Mr Murdoch, at what point did you find out criminality

was in debt? Endemic is a very hard way to raise it. I had to be

extremely careful, I do not want to prejudice the course of justice

which is taking place. That which has been disclosed, I became aware

as it became coming out. -- as it came out. I was absolutely shocked,

appalled and shamed when I heard about the Milly Dowler case. That

was two weeks ago. Rupert Murdoch is the head of corporate governance.

He claimed to know little about the practice of some journalists at

News of the World. His son claimed not to know much more. If I knew

then what we know now, in hindsight, we can look at these things, but we

would have taken more action around that, and moved faster to get to

the bottom of these allegations. What about the police? Over the

past few days we have heard more about the close relationship

between senior police officers and executives at News International.

The commissioner admitted to enjoying the 18 dinners in five

years with News International employees. Around seven of them

were with a journalist accused of phone hacking. News International

represents 42 % of the press readership. If I am to wrap a dent

-- if I am to retain communication with the media, I must meet with

them. If they have 42 %, who rely tot to? In front of the Select

Committee, Rebekah Brooks denied ever saying that she paid police

officers were stories. Why would she, when she could get the

information for free? I have never paid a policeman myself, I have

never knowingly sanctioned a payment to a police officer, and in

my experience of dealing with the police, the information I gave to

newspapers comes free of charge. The information comes from -- the

information that the police never sanction payments has been

questioned in the light of these relationships. They may have been

asking the questions today, but politicians do not escape being

embroiled in the scandal. Rupert Murdoch and Rebekah Brooks can both

court successive prime ministers as personal friends. Which visit to

Downing Street are you suggesting? Following the last general election.

I was invited within days to have a cup of tea to be banned for my

support by Mr Cameron. -- to be thanked. No other conversation took

place. You enter through the back door? Yes. I have been asked by

Gordon Brown many times as well. The politician I met most was

Gordon Brown when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, his wife and my

wife struck up a friendship. Our children played together on many

occasions. After a day of questioning, some interesting facts

have come to light, like the revelation -- revelation that the

man who hacked into Milly Dowler's phone had his legal fees paid by

News International. It is still a long way from the real story of

what happened at News of the World. I am joined by Lorraine Davidson of

the times and Ewan Crawford who lectures at the University of the

West of Scotland, and from Westminster by a Daily Record

journalist. You have been paying close attention to this story. What

has leapt out at you? It is tremendous drama and tremendously

exciting, but what have we learned? We had the family drama, the father,

the Sun, the stepmother in the background, Wendi Deng. That

amusing punch with which she defended her husband. She was the

second line of defence for Rupert Murdoch, his first line of defence

was he was a doddery old man. He did not know what was going on in

one part of his empire, his son was young and naive. He did not know

what these cheques worth more. It worked for them, I think they got

off with it. Murdoch went in with questions about whether he would be

chairman of News Corporation. He left with the shares of News

Corporation up by six %. While that was going on, the Home Affairs

Committee, which had a policeman in front of it, they said some

interesting things. I was struck by the evidence by eight Ken McDonald,

because in the Murdoch interrogation, the impression was

given that there is something the vast and complicated going on, and

Ken McDonald said that he looked at e-mails which the legal firm had,

and it took me between three to five minutes to work out there was

serious criminal offences. It is a direct quote, he said it was

blindingly obvious there was illegal activity. You have hit the

nail on the head. That is the story. Ken McDonald, former public

prosecutor in England, had a quick look at these files, Yates of the

Yard had spent a day on them, and concluded in a couple of minutes,

we have to go to the police directly with this. News

International Board, sorry, News Corporation board, accepted that.

Just to be clear, this was not the same information that Yates of the

Yard was looking at, this was the information the legal company had

been given by the extensive investigation into News

International. The other interesting link that Yates gave us

today was that he offered to brief Downing Street on the investigation

into backing. -- into the phone hacking. A senior official had

thrown up his hands and said they did not want to know about it. Sir

Paul Stephenson had earlier said that he wanted to discuss Neil

Wallis, the former deputy editor of the News of the World who was

arrested in connection with phone hacking. He wanted to discuss it

with David Cameron but a senior Downing Street figure had warned

him off. We have a fire all around the Prime Minister where people

around him do not want him to know any within. -- know anything. We

have a similar wall around the Do you think it is going to be

damaging for David Cameron? There has said in the Cabinet Office that

it is proper for will then not to discuss an ongoing investigation.

David Cameron is saying that Andy Coulson may have spoken to some of

his old friends at the News of the World, but he is not responsible

for that. Today will not be a problem for him because it shows

the Prime Minister was not directly involved. There is an interesting

side issue. They e-mails did not mention phone hacking, they

mentioned other matters. It was interesting because people could be

fishing for information. Mr Cameron is in some difficulty there. --

verve. He has been on the back fought and tomorrow will be another

show trial. It is interesting the lack of support he has had from

Cabinet ministers. Boris Johnson has not exactly rushed to the

barricades to defend him. David Cameron, for the first time in his

leadership of the Conservative Party, is unquestionably Honourable.

-- vulnerable. There are people in the Conservative Party who never

really liked him or agree with Ian. -- with him. Yes. This is the

moment where Ed Miliband has been able to establish himself as a

serious politician and take on David Cameron. It has come together

with members of his own party who think he is not this person who

walks on water and he is not invincible. The other people in hot

water are the police. The works very it -- the words ferrets and

sack spring to mind. This is more than an Eccleston moment. Eccleston

was about Formula One and cigarette advertising. This is about

listening into a murdered teenager's phone messages. This is

about the control of satellite broadcasting, a licence to print

money in Britain. Yates linked Wallace to Andy Coulson to David

Cameron. I concede this must be mildly embarrassing for David

Cameron, but let us get serious. Well, he will have to burn a lot of

public credibility doing that. Meanwhile is the figure of George

Osborne, who Rebekah Brooks mentioned as the person who had

recruited Andy Coulson to Downing Street. When we look up from this

crisis, the breeze we feel on our faces is from a variety of other

problems. The problem a for the politicians involved in this year's

it isn't just over the summer. There will be to inquiries,

possibly criminal trials. This just goes on indefinitely. If you are in

any way tainted by this, they is no prospect of any relief. Yes, and it

is interesting that the House of Commons is working in the public

interest, but nothing could be further from the truth. Although

they are saying it is in the national interests, this is about

politics. We will have to leave it there. Thank you. No prizes for

guessing what is on their -- on the Parts of North East England and

Scotland seen heavy rain. It will be aware day four of the south-west

as well. For the north and north- east, torrential downpours with

minor flooding. The South East and southern counties will have a

bright start, but showers will develop during the day. Some

brightness breaking through the crowds along the western coast.

Largely dry in Northern Ireland. Scotland will be dry and bright.

Tomorrow night, heavy showers around. Cloudy conditions and