01/09/2011 Newsnight Scotland

declaration of liberation, as they put it. Tonight on Newsnight

Scotland, this week, a double whammy of Cabinet ministers have

come north to tell us of the risks of independence and the benefits of

the union. Is this the beginning of the unionist fightback? And where

is Scotland's largest unionist party, Labour, in all of this?

Good evening. As we anticipate the return of MSPs to Holyrood next

week, the political atmosphere has been stirred by the Westminster end

of government. This week, following meetings in Downing Street, we have

what could be called a Lib Dem offensive. The Scottish Secretary

reminded Scots, in case we had forgotten, that he too plays a role

in running the country, not just the SNP. Less than an hour ago, the

Chief Secretary to the Treasury weighed in with doom-laden warnings

and declared, United We Stand. Does it amount to a frontal attack, and

shouldn't the main Holyrood opposition party, Labour, be doing

this job? As Parliament prepares to return, Derek Bateman asks, who is

making the case for Unionism? Summer is over, and the children

are going back to school. As the doors are flung open to welcome the

noisy scamps, they have already been some scraps during the holes.

I like the class bully was told by head boy Michael to get his lessons

dump and stop staring out of the window at the big boys' games. But

Alec said he wants to win all the prizes for himself. -- Alex.

Michael Moore is still in short trousers when it comes to take in

on the nationalists and stopping any referendum progress in its

tracks. His first attempt led to some ridicule. He is against the

referendum, but then said he wants two, one consultative and the other

definitive. Last night, his tough new approach at the David Hume

Institute was to ask the SNP questions. When EU membership,

currency, bank regulation and defence. They have been

uncharacteristically shy in setting out exactly what it is that

independence would look like and what it would cost. They have been

reticent about what they even mean by independents. But the rest of us,

who believe in the constitution and the development of a modern UK must

not be complacent about making the case for Scotland's continued

presence in the UK. Westminster's man in Scotland has to seek

clarification from the government in Edinburgh. Voters will want

answers to such questions, but this only underlines how it is the

nationalists who command the agenda. Mr more explicitly concedes this

when he says there is an implication that the Scottish

government alone stands up for Scotland, and in assiduous

narrative, he says, that has taken root and ignores the other

government, his own. That is a bit pathetic. Yes, the Westminster

government is a real one, but that case has not been made for a

variety of reasons. A Liberal Democrats are putting a

Conservative government with only one MP in Scotland to talk about

mandates will be in a difficult place. Tonight, Danny Alexander

continued the Lib Dem 12, lumping Scotland with �65 billion of

national debt and putting an independent Scotland alongside

Ireland and Iceland. Oil revenues will fall, he said. Safer in the

Union. Next week, MSPs returned to Holyrood to hear the SNP

legislative programme. Opposition Members will look for something to

oppose, but only out of mischief. They cannot vote anything down.

They do not have the numbers. Labour has been left effectively

leaderless, struck dumb by the imminent publication of the Murphy

report on party reform. Even the report author seems to be defensive.

Every time I've come to talk about defence policy, you always ask

questions about the Labour Party. It is a matter your voters will

want details on. So do I! I am as impatient as everyone else. We have

got to go through the process. There is an interesting contrast

between the Labour Party in Scotland now and the Tories after

their 2000 and five defeats. Tories after 2005 spend the summer

debating the way forward with different Vic -- different visions

from David Davis and David Cameron. We have had none of that from

Labour this summer. In fact, they have seen to have decided that they

did not hate Alex Salmond as much in the run-up to the last election,

and if they can show that they hate him more, that will somehow works.

We have had the slaughter of the Lib Dems and the stalling of the

Tories, and Labour are also looking friendlier. The Labour Party need

to rip things up and start again. They need to firstly say why Labour

values mean Scotland should be in the Union. They should create a

framework from that so that they can argue a positive case for

Scotland being in the Union. Then they have to reach out to the

people of Scotland. There is too small a gene pool at the moment of

people that could be representing Powerful governments can stumble.

When you rise above all others, there is nowhere to hide and

further to fall. But if he continues to flag wave successfully,

his opponents will have to resort to the policy of no, no fee, no,

the same negative message rejected in May. At least until the

coalition finds the circumstances to bring some pomp back to the

Union. I am joined by Ken Macintosh -- Ken

Macintosh, Derek Mackay, and Iain Macwhirter. Thank you for coming.

Ken Macintosh, would you like to declare on the programme this

evening? Not just yet. We are still going up to read a party review.

And trying to work out why we had such a poor result in May is the

most important thing. And when you say just yet, it is just a matter

of time, is it? If I will declare when it is time to! I will make a

declaration when that time... I think it would be presumptuous

otherwise. If you feel like firming it up get back to me.

The yen, a 21 listening to what Michael Moran Stanley Alexander are

saying this evening, do you think that they are managing to put out

some coherent vision of the unions for the next 100 years? It sounds

very tired staff. I think if that is the best they can do, the last

person to leave the union, please turn out the light. This stuff

about banks and the financial rescue is largely being discredited

even by the Financial Times. I do not think anyone believes Scotland

would not be able to continue economically if it were independent.

There is have caused a doubt about what the SNP mean about

independence, that this is not the way to combat it. Before we move

into the specifics of the core policies, let's look at what you

highlighted there, a contentions that had been put forward are the

ones that we heard from Gordon Brown 15 years ago and they have

been discredited. What does it tell us about the nature of the debate

we will be going into if there is that fundamental issue there that

some voters may find very disrespectful? We find ourselves in

a difficult situation. The Unionist case is going by default. The three

Unionist parties are leaderless and they show no obvious signs of

finding any leadership. And Labour, the most successful Democratic

Party in Scottish history, his left and his appalling dilemma when no

one wants to lead it. They say they are having a breathing space and it

is fine for them to do this because they need to sort themselves out.

But it looks more like they are breathing their last. And they

should be fighting, struggling, standing on each other's shoulders

to get a lead the party. But the evidence as far as we know is that

there is virtually nothing happening. And this review, I have

spoken to people who submitted material to lead, and I can tell

you that they are pretty disappointment with its

effectiveness. Whatever you politics, this should be a dynamic,

exciting time, when in Scotland you can say you are, what you want and

where you want to go. All these big choices and debates. But there does

not seem to be any dynamism about this debate. Why not, and why is

Labour so completely flat in all of this? Labour are not flat in any of

this. First of all, the argument Ian is talking about is one for

separatism. I would like to correct something. I am not a Unionist, I

am for evolution. I believe evolution has been very successful

and I believe we can take control of our own affairs. We have shown

that a Scottish Parliament is usually successful in giving

Scotland confidence to take control of health, but to keep talking

about constitutional issues and to separate us off from the rest of

the UK, that does not improve bad health, our Equality, it does not

make this a fairer country. It might make us more separate. If you

think you have a positive message to sell, why is no one articulating

it? And can you afford to be as relaxed as you seem to be, almost

bordering on indifference, about what happens here? We are certainly

not indifferent, nor are we relaxed. We are undergoing a major review.

We had the worst result in a long long time in Scotland. And we have

to make sure that people remember Labour's values. I want to rekindle

the spirit of 1999, that enthusiasm about the birth of the Scottish

Parliament. But things have moved on fundamentally since then. I do

not think Labour's values have moved on since there, and we had

clearly lost the support of the Scottish people. But that is over

policy choices and the business of government as opposed to the values,

of which I believe we still have in common. Social justice, fairness so,

not building a separate Scotland but a fairer Scotland. That is what

the Labour Party is about. But we have to re-engage and that is not

an easy task. And can I say, it is far more important than talking

about constitutional issues, which I think most people I left cold by.

Derek Mackie, other than that, it is by constitutional issues that

you reach the points the various parties want to reach on this

journey. What I would say to you tonight, the CBI are saying that in

Scotland, look, whether there is independence or not, get on with

the referendum. All this is bad for business, it creates uncertainty is

hanging around and not knowing what the question will be, when it will

come Hough, of what it will involved. On the contrary, what the

SNP want to do is build up confidence in Scotland, and we will

do that by governing competently as we have always done, if at

encouraging a positive debate about what Scotland could be. It could be

healthier, Ferre and green a nation with the powers that independence

could bring. And we will build up that confidence over the years to

come. The only uncertainty that is coming as part of this debate is

coming from the Unionist parties that do not have a positive idea

about what Cup -- Scotland could do. The counter-argument to that, as is

that the point of not rocking the boat in the last Parliament is to

prove you could govern. Now you do not seem to want to do it is time

either. So you are not going to make a hard choices that Scotland

needs to have taken within his next parliamentary term, for political

reasons of your own death. A hard choices are unavoidable stop there

will be a day-to-day good government, and also the debate

about Scotland's future, in which we build up the confidence of this

nation, to be a positive and outward-looking nation that takes

its place in the world. Just to clarify. What does independence

actually mean? It means that the ball Scotland would get the

Government a vote for. Not a UK government they did not vote for

that a Scottish one they did vote for. Were due retain the army?

would mean is equality, normality, taking a place in the world,

quality control. For over the next few years, we will build up a

specific policy Portfolio in watch -- what each area will look like.

It is important to get it right and take the people of Scotland with us.

It can be a very positive dialogue. As we were saying earlier, Dannii

Alexander has been speaking to CBI in Glasgow and we were looking at a

clip of some of the key points of the speech. The ties between

Scotland and the rest of the UK are an essential cornerstone of our

economic recovery. Scotland's road to recovery is intimately tied to

the recovery of the rest of the UK, and we must work together,

politicians and businesses, to capitalise on every opportunity to

support the country. We are stronger together, and we are

stronger when Scotland's two governments work together, pulling

in the same direction for the people of this country. Dannii

Alexander. Just to pick up on some of the points you were raising

their. Do you think that both sides now have to have a greater clarity

to put before the electorate, and sooner rather than later, if we are

to have the kind of debate we are entitled to have in Scotland? Do

you think there is confusion about what independence means. Yes, I

said earlier that the Unionist case is working by default. There is

this great questioned about the Scotland Bill which is going

through Westminster currently, and will be dominating the next six

months. I do not have any indication that the non- leadership

of the Unionist parties in Scotland has any idea what they want to do

with that. Ken Macintosh is saying it is not about the constitution.

It is about the constitution. It is also about Labour's constitution.

If Labour is going to get out of this mess it Hastie establish

itself as a Scottish party with its own leader in Scotland. But the

situation for the SNP, there are political opportunities here which

will arise. The SNP did not expect to win an absolute majority, no one

expected that. They do not have a script for this. They do not have a

clear idea of what they want to do, because in the past they did not

have to because what they could do was constrained by what the other

parties would allow a. Now they are their own masters, and it is not

clear what their agenda will be. In that situation, they could become

the victim of events. And we could possibly see, like this week with

the trams fiasco where John Swinney had to overturn the decision of

Edinburgh Council and put his name on the project. That could be a

disaster waiting to happen. Whatever is waiting for them in the

long grass, why would it be that if you have this majority now, nothing

teenager has happened so far, your opponents are on the backs that,

why not bring forward the referendum? Why wait there for the

events you're talking about to come about? So well, because they would

lose it! They will not have a referendum any time soon. They will

leave it to later in the parliament. Hopefully after the UK Coalition

has disintegrated and perhaps there is a Tory government after the 2015

General Election, against that backdrop they might be able to get

a majority in Scotland for independence. But they will

certainly not do it when they would lose it, they will leave it as late

as possible. Ian, in terms of public, you know, positive and

constructive public engagement in this. I N soundings girlishly

enthusiastic about that concept, but how does this have to be

structured to? What will it take to have a realistic debate about this

is in which the issues are run adequately addressed on a

reasonable timescale? If you are talking about the independence

referendum, the problems are that the way things are going it might

get through by default because the other parties do not want to get

into the game at all. They are coming out with these tired

arguments. They have to find some new arguments. They know -- they do

not appear to be interested in promoting at. Labour is --

completely adrift, and leaderless. This is a real national crisis we

have here. They have to be an opposition as well as a government.

Thank you very much. A quick look at the papers. The