05/09/2011 Newsnight Scotland

be opposed by everyone who has ability to speak up. Thank you.

On tonight's programme: Say what you really men.

There is no future for the Scottish Conservative and unionist party in

its current forplt. We'll ask -- form. We'll ask Murdo Fraser where

the party that want to wield will result in nothing more than

derision and bitter in-fighting. I am ashamed and embarrassed as a

Scottish Conservative - the words of a man who says he wants to lead

the Tories in England. Murdo Fraser's pitch to the faithful can

be summed up as "abandon ship." In a speech which will be seen as

brave or foolish, he described the party as "Not fit for purpose." One

of the biggest financier said it had left members scandallised.

We will hear from Murdo Fraser in a few minutes. First David Allison

has this report. Things were not always so desperate. In 1955 the

Blue Bell Parker was in the charts. Eden was re-elected as Prime

Minister. With his party in Scotland getting 50% of the popular

vote. A decade later n1968, a pro- devolution Ted Heath promised home

rule. A Scottish assembly to sit in Scotland.

Things changed in the '80s with the arrival of Margaret Thatcher and

the poll tax, the end result when Labour had a landslide victory in

1997 was annihilation for the Scottish Conservatives. Perhaps I

should acknowledge that reports of my demise were not exaggerated.

They lost every single MP in one fell swoop. Now, as my children

would say, it's time for me to get a life. Thank you very much.

leafy suburb like East Wood here in Glasgow should rebe returning

Conservative MPs on a regular basis. It is not. It is infuriating many

people in the party. Fraser -- Murdo Fraser says there

needs to be a big change. Some observers think the idea of a re-

branded party with loser apron strings tying it to London will be

a hard sell. No-one else votes other than members. They might say,

If we vote for this guy we voting to wind up the party we love."

Murdo Fraser's view of the future has proved controversial with other

candidates. There's a fine line between being radical and reckless.

There are serious questions about what SNPs would do and whether they

would want to be part of a new break away party or whether they

would remain party of the family. There is mixed reaction among

Another funder will be. The last 14-15 years we have arranged the

chairs on the Titanic really. First Minister was eager to intrude

on other's grief. They are saying they want to be independent as a

political party. The reaction of the Conservative Party in London so

far seems to have been fairly relaxed, possibly because

anything's worth a try. The most impressive thing about the Scottish

elections for the Tories the only place where the Labour vote held up

is where it was Labour verses the Tories. That has persuaded them the

brand is over the water. Winding back seats like Eastwood is

something that all want to achieve. It will be dominations closing at

the end of this month, campaigning throughout October with the result

known on 4th November. Ceures are growing to an enormous

size and power. When the Tories celebrated in 1955 there was an

alien conspiracy which was trying to take power and turn everyone

into zombies. The one now should That was David Allison reporting

the zombies. A short time ago I was joined by Murdo Fraser and began by

asking him how long he had been ashamed and embarrassed to have

been a member of the Scottish Tories? The crunch point was the

general election last year, where despite all the efforts made by our

party in our target seats we made little progress and in fact went

backwards in too many of them and retain only one Member of

Parliament. I started to worry about the future of our party and

that concern was confirmed at the election earlier this year, where

despite excellent leadership and a narrative going into the election

we've never had before as a party, nonetheless we lost seats and yet

more votes. I decided, as have many of my colleagues in the Scottish

party, it is time for a radical re- think. You have been hammered since

1997, only dawned on you in 2010 that something needed to change.

always thought things would get better. We tried new policies. We

tried policy reviews. We tried organisational restructuring. We

had great leaders, and despite all that, we have just been going

backwards. Now is the time for a fresh start, which is exactly what

I'm proposing. Let's be clear, if we can be, there's been debate

about whether this party will be disbanded or not. Are you planning

to kill off the Scottish Conservative and unionist party or

not? I have never used the word "Disband." What I am proposing to

do is create from the existing Scottish Conservative and Unionist

Party a new progressive, centre- right party. That would not be

called the Conservative Party, would it? What I have said on the

name is I am not proposing a new name. There should be a new name.

If I am successful we'll have a consultation. The only name I rule

out is the current name because I think we need to demonstrate a

change. Very importantly, this new party I am proposing would be a

sister party of the UK Conservative Party. People we elect to the House

of Commons would sit in support of David Cameron and a future

Conservative Government. That would be a massive improvement, I believe,

on the situation we have stod, where we only have one -- today,

where we only have one MP. Can you give me a policy other than the

Common Fisheries Policy where you disagree with David Cameron in his

administration? I don't disagree on an awful lot. We are all come from

the same area of politics. We are centre of right. We share the same

values. It would be unusual if we were to have.... Sorry? It is a

different name, but same cast of characters and same policies.

are start from the same values. Let me give you an example. At the

heart of our new centre right progressive party would be a belief

in decentralisation. A belief in passing power down from Westminster

to Holyrood, from Holyrood to local Government, to communities and

individuals. That is entirely in tune with mainstream centre-right

opinion across the world. It probably has not been a

characteristic of the modern Conservative Party either in

Scotland or across in the UK in recent years. That sound as if you

are willing to go beyond the Scotland Bill proposals. That is

something you say you are open- minded to. What do you mean?

means that. We've got the Scotland Bill coming. That recommends a

major transfer of power to Holyrood and will create a financially

accountable Holyrood. Do you rule out rather than that? I plan to

have a proper debate in our party about whether to go further.

much further? In time, I think we should consider whether we go

further. The first is this, any further devolution must be

demonstrated to strengthen the United Kingdom. It must be

considered on a pragmatic basis. Your new policy is supporting

devolution and then I ask you, what further powers you would like to

see devolved and you cannot come up with any? The political prior for

us -- priority for us to day is fighting the plans to brick up

Britain and where our energys will go is campaigning energy gettically

for a "no" vote, and seeing off Alex Salmond's plans. How will you

pay for this new party? If you were at Milanch you quould have seen a

number of new donors among the many I have spoken to who have been

Scottish supporters, who have been fed up with the fact that over the

years they have put money in and they think it has been wasted.

name three people. Jon McGlin, - �2,555. Robert, who

has donated �6,000 and I cannot find any donation from Robert Gib

bons, somebody you quote in your press release. Sir Jack Harvey,

whose organisation has given hundreds of thousands of pounds,

says he would not give you a penny. They are all wealthy individuals

who have stopped giving money to the Conservative Party because they

are so frustrated with the lack of political progress. They are

interested in supporting us. They have promised how much? I will not

discuss on air, with respect, actual sums involved. Although I

think Robert Gibbons was talking about his ability to raise as much

as �500,000. I know, because I was talking to many donors, many of

these people do not want their names put out on air, who say they

are frustrated because they put money into the Conservative Party

in Scotland and they get nothing back. They are looking for a change

and are prepared to support a change. If you don't win the

leadership, there's no way you can stay as a member of the Scottish

Conservative Party and Yuerst Party given how annoyed you have made

some financial backers. You will have to resign from the party?

in this election to win it. I am heartened by the enthusiastic

support from Holyrood and from local councillors, from activists

and senior figures. Malcolm Rifkind, who has endorsed what I am

proposing. Today I see Lord Tebbit has come out and endorsed what I am

proposing. That arch unionist. There's a great deal of support.

Allvy to do is convince our members this is the right thing to do. Like

me, they are fed up.... I am not in this election to lose it. I'm in it

to win it. Compared to other candidates I have serious, top-

level backing from colleagues. For anybody wanting to be a leader has

to demonstrate they can win over the people they work with, first of

all. I think I've been able to do that. Murdo Fraser, thank you for

your time. We will speak to the other leadership candidates over

the course of the next few weeks. What do those who have been out

selling the Tory brand on the doorsteps make of all of this? We

are joined by three former candidates. In the capital is Miles

Briggs and Iain McGill. With me here is Stephanie Fraser. Do you

think Murdo Fraser has been brave or pompous? I suppose time will

tell, really. I find it very depressing that somebody standing

for the leadership of our party and the first thing we've heard from

him is he wants to throw it all out and start again. I'm very proud to

be a Conservative and have enjoyed being a Scottish Conservative

candidate. I think there are many things that we need to do. A huge

job ahead for who ever is the leader. One thing I am very

depressed about is he wants to tear it up and start again. You think it

is a mistake then? I do. Yes. Briggs, is he being brave? He's

giving us a great opportunity to connect with the people of Scotland.

It is clear from the election results that people in Scotland

aren't supporting this because they don't believe in our party any more.

What he's suggesting, I think is a real alternative which gives us a

opportunity to establish ourselves as a political party in Scotland.

Where's the policy platform? said he would go back to pre-party,

1965. That was a party which had great success in Scotland. Your

piece suggested that. We were seen as an independent Scotland, running

Scotland here, answerable to the people of Scotland. That is

something which is hugely attractive. People watching this

programme, I think, will be sitting at home, saying That's where the

Tories should be in Scotland. This new force can become a dominant

force in Scotland again. Enlighten us as to where David Cameron and

the Conservatives in London have been holding the tartan Tories

back? I would not say they have held us back. In terms of the

political party in Scotland we've not been able to connect with the

electorate in Scotland for one reason, being that we are seen as a

very much English party, which I think most involved in the party

don't agree with or like. It is clear that our opposition to

devolution shaped that thinking. Now we've, with the leadership of

Murdo, we will be a party run purely in Scotland. That will

change people's perception of us. totally disagree. The last thing

the electorate need is a history lesson back to 1965. Who ever wins

needs to look forward and needs to attract people to our party and

understand what it is that we're doing wrong. I mean, you know, we

need a new strategy. We don't need a new name. We need a unifying

force. We need to look forward and not back. Half of our problem is we

have spent our lives looking back rather than forward and what it

means to be a Conservative in Scotland. Iain McGill, quite a few

members in Scotland will remember back to 1955, won't they? Do you

think if Murdo Fraser wins with this idea you will get the fresh

blood he's hoping for? I think he started this as a run-away

favourite, as an establishment figure is. He has been an SNP for

ten years. He's very much started this election as an establishment

figure. What we have seen since he has announced his policy is members

going "Wait a minute. This is not what we want." Even if Murdo wins

this election, it is not a foregone conclusion, he will have a terrible

job trying to persuade members that throwing out the embers of the

Scottish Conservative Party for some unquantifyable new party

without any credible funders. I don't see how he could persuade

members to go for that even if they returned him as a leader and maybe

seeing the Scottish public voting for Alex Salmond. They don't like

his policy of independence for Scotland. They see him as credible

enough - a safe pair of hands. I think people are talking about is

he out on a limb, will they have to leave the party if he loses. I

think Murdo is out on a limb even if he wins. The party will not back

him on his number one policy, which is let's kill the Conservative

Party in Scotland and start something, anything. Will he have

to leave? That will be up to Murdo. Do you think he should leave?

think he should leave? I don't see where there's room for him to go.

He's been deputy leader. He's waiting for leader. Win or bust?

I'm hoping for a win. I think both Stephanie, Iain and myself have

spoken to people in different parts of Scotland.

Thrashing all the brand that you were trying to sell to the

electorate? The brand he has defended for the past 12-and-a-half

years. It is clear we're not making progress in our current state.

Whose fault is that? The brand is that he's been putting out. In term

ofs a party it's not going to hell -- in terms of a party, it's not

going to help the party at all. We need to look at ourselves. People

in Scotland are not voting for us. This last election we got 12% of

the regional list vote. That is the lowest ever in our party's history

Murdo Fraser has put on record what he wants to do to the party to see

us become, once again, a real political force in Scotland. I know,

certainly in terms of the people I have spoken to, who are not party

members, the people.... They don't have a vote. They would look to

join the party. That's the key. Iain McGill - this is a good point.

Whatever you think, anybody looking at the election results can not

help but come one a conclusion that the brand is at the very least in

trouble and probably bust. That is key here. For a lot of people they

like the policies when they hear them. When you say, this is the

Conservative Party's policy, they say, well I won't be able to vote

for that. Maybe that is the fault of the

people representing us. They've had 12-and-a-half years in the Scottish

pearl. What -- Parliament. Yes, something has to happen. Just

throwing away a party giving us a new name with the same members, the

same values, the same policies, I mean do we think the electorate are

that stupid? We have not been called the Tories for more than 100

years. We are still called the Tories. There's no meat on the

bones about what Murdo is proposing. We have not seen apart from the

Common Fisheries Policy and the common agricultural policy,

Scotland needs a good centre-right alternative. Positively for rolling

back the state that makes China and Cuba go, "wow look at the state of

their public sector." We want a low tax, a -- an alternative to what we

have. Murdo has been leading the party for the last seven years,

through quite a few poor election results for us all.

You guys have been.... He has been there through many defeats. He's

been in the party for goodness knows how long. All of a sudden he

thinks he should scrap the brand. Does he have credibility? In terms

of individuals I don't think we can say the individuals have failed. It

is our party which has failed. We need to wake up to that. Don't you

think we have to take some responsibility? He said in his

speech today that we have not failed as 1s. We, as individuals,

have gone out there and preached the message. We obviously have not

succeeded. It is clear the message has not been listened to or taken

by the Scottish elect or rate. They have not wanted to -- electorate.

They have not wanted to vote for the party. What the leaders need to

be doing is talking to people in Scotland. What he has now is a

prolonged period of naval gazing by the Conservatives in Scotland.

the party wants to see.... Let him finish.

To have a vote in Scotland. I think there's a wide part of the

electorate out there what want to support a strong centre-right party

in Scotland. Currently they cannot bring themselves to. What Murdo

Fraser has seen is why in Scotland, which is not completely different

to England in its social attitudes did we have 12% of the vote at the

Holyrood election? If you don't get hung up on the name, the different

ideas he has put forward are great ideas which can enthuse the people

who are not donors. I think it is really exciting. All

the candidates will talk about how to change. I will be interested to

see how they put the meat on the bones.

Thank you all for your time this evening. Let's look at tomorrow's

evening. Let's look at tomorrow's This announcement from The

University of Edinburgh, how much they will charge to other parts of

the UK. Tory donor sabotages Fraser. You

will know what all that is about having watched the fram.

D That's all the time we have this evening. From all of us here, thank

There's a lot of wind and rain around for England and Wales. It

will sweep down towards the south- east. Something brighter emerging

by the afternoon. A bright and breezy picture across the Midlands.

The worst of the rain will be clearing away from Kent and East

Sussex by mid-afternoon. So you start off with rain, things should

improve later on in the day. Although across western parts of

England and Wales, there will be further showers rattling in through

the course of the afternoon. It's not looking all that warm out there.

Temperatures helds in the mid-teens. -- held in the mid-teens.

For Northern Ireland any sunshine will be limited. That is the story

for Scotland as well. Brightness possible further east.

Further ahead, more showers to come through the middle of the week. A

brisk wind making it feel cool, despite some sunshine. Across

southern areas too it's a similar picture. Sunshine, yes, but

there'll be heavy showers around. So, on Wednesday, probably most of

the showers across western parts. The best of the sunshine in the