24/01/2012 Newsnight Scotland

The first minister there with Jeremy Paxman. Tonight, a little

more on Mr Salmond's visit to London and how his missionary work

there has been going. Also tonight a chink of light in the misty white

people in West Scotland live shorter and less healthy life than

their counterparts anywhere else. We will hear from the epi

geneticist who has been researching the Glasgow effect.

We have heard Alex Salmond interviewed by Jeremy Paxman but

that was not the reason for his visit to London to date on the eve

of the launch of his referendum consultation, the first minister

had been invited by the trust which runs the Guardian newspaper to

deliver a lecture to an invited audience. His chosen topic, how

much Scotties independence could benefit England. The views of

people here have understandably not played much of a part so far in the

debate of Scotland's future and and I reminded of the reference to the

people of England to never have spoken yet. The people of Scotland

have not spoken yet, or at least not conclusively. England does not

nor cannot have a veto in the debate on independence. But I

suspect, I know that the vast bulk of England freely recognise

Scotland's right to determine its own future. This leads research

from the Institute for Public Policy certainly suggests that

people in England are waking up to the on sustainability of current

constitutional arrangements. They are not sustainable because they

are not fair. They are not fair to Scotland and they are not fair to

say England. Most importantly, I believe these relationships will be

positive and much stronger when our nations are clear and equal

partners. I believe that at our best, an independent Scotland could

be a beacon for progressive opinion south of the border and further

afield. Addressing policy challenges in ways that reflect the

universal values of fairness, of capable of considered adapted and

implemented according to circumstances and wishes with in

other jurisdictions of the silence. I am joined by the political

commentator Gerry Hassan and the London editor of the Irish Times

Mark Hennessy. Thank you for coming in. Mark, how is the foreign press

during all of this? It is birdied days and there is an increasing

amount of interest in what is happening in Scotland. Most people

watching that interview with Jeremy Paxman, I am sure Alex Salmond

would be very glad if he was to get more interviews like that by

English presenters. It is certainly the picture of the patronising

Englishman and that would feed into the debate both in Scotland and the

attitudes that will be perhaps taken a broad when people are

looking at this from an outside audience. Certainly in the Irish

context, there was interest. We are not at a point where there is a

deep knowledge of what is going to take place in Scotland but it will

have interesting implications, and certainly if Scotland was to become

independent it would have significant impact on Northern

Ireland. And the Unionist community there which is not traditionally

the most self-confident of groups and certainly were Scotland to

leave the union, that would have a deep and profound impact on

politics on the island of Ireland. We do not have time to go into this

but this is something we can talk about later. Jerry, when you look

at what is happening in London, the first minister says there will be a

series of speeches, what is that about? He is trying to normalise

the strategy of the SNP and the idea of independence, trying to

make this as something that happens to normal countries. He is trying

to address the sceptical Guardian liberal English voice, but they

raise also an audience that regards Sam and in a fantasy land. What

they could have been and he wants to try and build a bridge with that,

some common ground. Understand what we are about and that this is a

normal journey. Do you think Scottish people want to see him as

a statesman out there? How important will be tone be in what

he said, giving a positive message? Mood matters there and the SNP

government strategy of how Scotland has appeared has been part of that.

The positive tones matter and what the SNP are saying is they believe

the Unionists are going to go on fear, negativity, and he is trying

to take the moral high ground because he thinks he can win more

with that. Mark, is it inevitable that there is a different debate in

Scotland, there is a different level of accepted knowledge and

that we are having different conversations in Scotland as to

where we are compared with England and Ireland? Is that an inevitable

consequence that we have been living with this for so long and

what effect could that have? will have to wait and see how the

debate frames up over the next couple of years. In some ways since

devolution has occurred here, Scotland has been playing itself

government. It does not fully raised all the money it spans and

that allows Scottish ministers a certain freedom that it would not

enjoy and it would not enjoy a after independence when it would

have to raise every penny that it will spend. The debate will become

more focused as time goes on. The constitutional expert in London

made an interesting point when he said that the Irish and the Indians

first of all decided they did not wish to be part of the British

Empire. They did not ask themselves whether they would be better off.

When you listen to the debate, it is striking how much of it is

centred on the economic question and whether Scotland would be

better off or not. If that debate is still the same as people are

going to the polls at the end of 2014, the assumption as of now

would be that Scots would not necessarily vote for independence.

Quite what will happen on the third question of a ballot paper would be

interesting. We were quite fascinated over the past couple of

weeks with the issue of the legal basis on which a referendum would

be held because if we were in this position and we have more

experience of referendums than Scotland, we would have tied

ourselves up in knots for a week at two weather the government had a

right to put this question to the people or not. Looking at it from

the outside, it would appear that the Scottish government is going to

end up at the end of the day doing a deal with Westminster on section

30 and it will be a referendum that will be held legally after a vote

and legislation passes through the House of Commons. Can we look

forward to tomorrow? What do you think has to happen tomorrow in

terms of what the first minister will want to achieve with this

launch? It is all about the question and that is what matters

here and whether we have a yes or no question that stands legal tests.

I think that will happen. One of the issues is how the UK government

has overplayed its hand. There has to be an agreement with UK

It is not news that Glasgow has a dismal health record. But precisely

why has so far eluded explanation. Now freshly published research

suggests the answer could lie in our genes. A study by scientists at

Glasgow University looked at the DNA of people in the city's most

deprived and most affluent areas. They found people from the poorest

parts had DNA which made them more likely to develop diabetes and

cardiovascular problems. I will be asking why in a moment. First, here

They call it the Glasgow effect and they have been worrying about it

for years. This phenomenon has risen over the last two decade.

Something has happened to Glasgow. It is like for like more

problematic in health terms then encountered hurt neighbourhoods in

Manchester and Liverpool. -- than in a counterpart neighbourhoods.

Life expensive Kinsey was 80 years old for women just decades ago. --

life expectancy. Now there are outliers. In Glasgow, men can live

to 71 now, and women, 78. In Chelsea, women will live nine years

longer on average than in Glasgow. So what is wrong? There is a

combination of drink, fax and stress. And Glasgow's numbers are

worse than anywhere. There is the possibility of a damage done to a

child's DNA while it is still in the womb. It is a small but

potentially significant clue to the Glasgow effect.

A short while ago I asked the leader of the new research, Glasgow

University's Dr Paul Shiels, to explain what epigenetics actually

means. It can be best described as DNA

that tells a jeans when to work and at what level to work at. They are

akin to a computer. If you think of your chromosomes like the operating

system of a computer, then it is like that. A what have you worked

out here? What we have shown is that a comparison between the most

and least deprived areas shows that the most deprived has less than

Chaga have up less of this type of crimson in their DNA. -- have less

of this type of chromosome in their DNA. Generally, things are very

prevalent in Glasgow, cancer and diabetes. Are we seeing that there

is a predisposition towards these, a genetic disposition? Or is it

actually a stage further down the line from that? This is not a

genetic predisposition. These genetics can be modified in

development through life just by diet and lifestyle factors such as

smoking. These can cause the machinery to put these in place not

to work as well as they should. why would it be the case that his

is a particular problem in Glasgow and not other areas that you would

expect women to have the same problems's I would expect to see

the same thing to -- problems? would expect to see the same thing

in many areas in Britain. This gives us a little handle on

starting to explain why Glasgow is worse than anywhere else. We have

here, given an explanation biologically, for the consequences

in Glasgow, and we can start looking at the pathway is involved

and the association between deprivation and ill health which is

prevalent in the city. I know it is early stages, but what sort of

interventions might be appropriate from what you have learned are

ready? The simplest thing is focusing on -- would you have

learned? The simplest thing is focusing on poverty and diets and

making lives easier. Suitable environment in need to be provided

to nurture children, especially in their early years. Is this

something that you think that, for whatever reason, we have not

focused on the enough in the past? We have been focusing on it but it

is getting fed properly -- properly applied and getting suitable

information that will allow the proper interventions that will

affect the biology and the psychology and that will tie them

into the socio-economic factors that need to be addressed. This is

a problem that has no magic ball to solve it. It requires

collaborations between many different types of scientists and

doctors. This is something we did not know before. This is a sequence

and a consequence. Absolutely. We have seen previously in Glasgow, as

part of a multi- disciplinary study, ill health is more prevalent than

are most -- in our most deprived communities. Those in the least

deprived communities have fewer hours on the clock. Those in work

affluent communities have a more. This potential issue is a double

whammy. There are other influences that operate before you were born

that can add to it. Thank you very much.

Now a quick look at tomorrow's front pages. The Scottish Daily

Mail is leading what 1,000 days to save the Union. The Herald is

leading what a story that pupils have been told they must study

Scottish literature and they are saying that at least one text will

be compulsory in Higher English. The Independent is saying that

Britain is facing a broom in dishonesty. There seems to be a

decline in private integrity. And the Daily Telegraph has a story

about Mervyn King, the Bank of England. -- the mayor of the Bank

of England. That is all from me tonight. There

is no Newsnight Scotland on BBC 2 tomorrow night, instead there is

the Special Big Debate programme: Choosing Scotland's Future, on BBC

1 at 10:35pm. And you may wish to have a look at a new BBC website.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 42 seconds

That is all from me for tonight. The winds in western Scotland look

very gusty indeed. They could possibly reach 60 mph. Easter's

Cullen will stay dry. When the weather swings through and there

will be a showers that will turn increasingly wintry and could bring

some snow in Northern Ireland on Thursday morning. The showers on

Thursday could bring some hail. There will be some bright or sunny

spells on Thursday. There could be some rain across East Anglia and