30/01/2012 Newsnight Scotland

Thank you all very much. On Newsnight Scotland, Labour UK

leader told a Scottish audience that justice and equality will be

delivered more easily if there is a No vote in the referendum. For

Civic Scotland, it isn't so clear cut.

All so tonight, we report from little Scotland. Corby is to 75

miles from London, but the Caledonian heart still beats

strongly. Good evening. Ed Miliband's message

to his last audience today with no doubt have sounded familiar to many

of his predecessors as Labour leader. His argument was that the

goal of creating a more fair and just society could be more easily

achieved with the United Kingdom remaining intact. He also said that

it was the people of Scotland should decide the rules and timing

of the referendum, not Alex Salmond. Meanwhile, on the other side of the

country, Civic Scotland was having a go at defining its own space in

the political debate. Ed Miliband said he came to Scotland with

humility after a Labour's defeat in the Scottish elections. He claimed

the debate over independence was distracting from the fight for

social justice and equality, a task he believes can best be sustained

if the UK sticks together. I am not here to tell scops that Scotland

cannot survive and side the United Kingdom. I am here with the same

call of Labour leaders down the ages. This is for a fairer, more

just, more equal United Kingdom. We can do that best together.

SNP's response was to repeat its claim that an independent Scotland

would be a beacon for progressive thought. But Mr Miliband warned

that the stakes are high and that the whole of the UK would have to

live with the consequences. Some people, including the First

Minister, will tell you this is a battle between him and the Prime

Minister. Between the government of Scotland and the government of the

United Kingdom. Let me say clearly, it is right that the people of

Scotland decide the rules and timing of this referendum.

Miliband, repeated his desire to see a straight yes no question on

independence, rather than introducing a third option giving

more powers to the Scottish Parliament within the UK. I think

what we will not do is confuse the question of devolution with the

question of separatism. These are two separate issues and a ever much

the First Minister tries to blur them, they are separate.

Coalition led other voluntary organisations, business, religious

groups and trade unions believe the other option should be considered.

They launched their campaign this morning, for the debate to be

widened, both in terms of what is discussed and who dos be discussing.

We think the most important thing is for Civic Scotland to have a

voice and move away from these very highly politicised debate, which

are focused around process and referendums and questions on a

ballot paper. The whole debate, as reflected in the media, has been

disappointing. It has been about process, not madder than purpose

and we are hoping that we can get into a more mature discussion,

which does not have a yes no proposition. This coalition isn't

backing any particular outcome in a referendum, leading some wondering

how its success will be measured. I am joined now from London by the

deputy leader of Scottish Labour, Anas Sarwar and here in Glasgow by

John Downie of the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, which

helped organise that Civic Scotland news conference she saw in the film

and. John Downie, let us try and establish just what you new

grouping is about. Does this future of Scotland Campaign believe that

Holyrood should have more powers? What it believes is that we are not

here to campaign for independence and the status quo, what we are

campaigning about is a real debate about the future of Scotland. Ed

Miliband was talking about the Scottish people and the legality of

the referendum. What the Scottish people want to talk about is that

the Scotland they would like to see in the future, how we deal with

poverty and unemployment and how we deal with social justice and create

a Scottish welfare system. As a starting point, to believe that the

kind of future that she would like to see for Scotland it requires

further devolution of power? Some are members of the Coalition

actually do believe that, before macro have put a proposal forward.

The Church of Scotland who are a key member alongside the TUC are

very clear that they are consulting their members. They will not take

up position, but they will make sure that their members are engaged

in a debate and are in form to make a choice. Does that mean that you

are divided? Week are not divided. We agree that the politicians are

trying to narrow the debate. They have made up their minds that it is

a yes no question. Civic Scotland and that includes the trade unions

and churches, business and think tanks across the piece, including

the Scottish Youth Parliament, want to see a wider debate. There is

plenty of room for debate, including on this programme, but

what is the outcome but you are seeking. Are you trying to come up

with a middle way between what we have now and the possibility of

independence? There is a lot of top of clarity. There isn't going to

beat that. People with in the grouping are interested in the

debate and the outcome will be that people will propose this is how

perhaps up we should run of the Scottish welfare system and this is

how we should run the Scottish economy. As Scottish system or part

of the UK system? Members at the moment have done a lot of work over

the last six months on the Welfare Reform Bill which is a Bill

designed for England, totally at odds with the Scottish legislation,

we have a welfare system that is going to adversely affect thousands

of people in Scotland. What they are thinking about is how we can do

it better and manage it better in the future to help people and make

more of a difference to people's lives. By devolving that to

Holyrood? Some people do believe that. Is that the middle way that

the Labour Party should be pursuing? I welcome his comments.

What you see clearly he is the genuine discussion to be had in

Scotland about what powers need to be where in the best interest of

the Scottish people. I am saying that I am not tied to any

particular powers been at Westminster are Holyrood. I will

not prevent any Paris coming anywhere for the best interest of

the Scottish people. What should the right package be? Devolution is

a separate concept and we are open to having these conversations. We

would be delighted to be part of that conversation. We are having a

conversation internally, but it is separate from separation. But we

think there should be a straight yes no question. There should have

a parallel conversation on what the devolution will look like in the

best interest of Scotland. When you say at parallel conversation, you

seem to be saying that you cannot have that until the independence

referendum is behind us on the assumption that people vote in No?

We are not saying that. We are saying do not confuse the issue. It

should be a straight yes no question and all four parties in

Scotland are saying that as their preference. At the same time, it is

clear that politics is changing in Scotland and the civic society

wants that adult debate about what powers need to be there in the best

interests of Scotland. The interesting thing about that is

that it is a rejection of the SNP, rather than devolution. Devolution

We have no problem in having a conversation about the best

interests of Scotland. We are part of those conversations. We believe

in devolution. Our founder it stood on a manifesto of devolution for

Scotland. We deliver a Scottish Parliament. We are open to

devolution, but we are saying that we should have a straight yes no

question on independence. So a parallel conversation. What is to

say that an independent Scotland could not be more equal and

progressive in the way that you would want? We are saying that in

terms of the big challenges we face, we are genuinely stronger taking on

those challenges as part of the United Kingdom. Doesn't it depend

on he was governing? Let's take the big issue of the last few days

which is the banker's -- bankers' bonuses. If we have a lighter touch

of regulation in Scotland, banks will move North. Alex Salmond says

that an independent Scotland could be a beacon for progressive opinion.

Why is he wrong about that G he talks about being progressive, but

I think he needs to look at the definition of the word. He says he

wants to keep stronger welfare in Scotland but also wants to could

business rate and corporation tax. I do not think that giving a tax

code to the biggest businesses in the country is credible at the same

time as we see a massive cuts to public services. Communities are

being hammered up and down the country, but he is proposing a

council tax freeze. We are out of time. Thank you very much.

You may recall our reporter Ian Hamilton has been on tour in

England to find out what different communities make of the prospect of

a referendum on Scottish independence. He was in Cornwall

last week. Tonight he reports from the town of Corby in

Northamptonshire. It is known as Little Scotland because of the

Scots who settled there in the middle of the last century to work

in the steel industry. The steelworks closed in 1979. The

Scots and their descendants are Corby lies at the heart of Middle

England. Half-a-century ago, thousands of Scots moved here to

work in the steel industry. Corby became known as Little Scotland. In

the 1980s, Corby went to a tough time when the steelworks closed,

but since then, things have improved. The Scottish influence is

still here. It has been a while since the steelworks closed, but we

have a Grampian club and we have the biggest Rangers club outside of

Glasgow. The Scottish influence will continue. We have seen so many

Burns Nights been run recently. -- being run recently. I am keen to

find out what some of the Corby Scots think about the forthcoming

referendum in Scotland. I have come here to the Church of Scotland to

hear from the congregation. I do not think it should break away.

Cornwall want to break away, Wales probably wants to break away. The

whole world knows Great Britain. It is a tiny country punching far

above its weight and I think the more you fragmented, it will lose

power. I think we should stay as a United Kingdom. I think we would be

stronger as a United Kingdom. I do not see how the split would benefit

anybody. The SNP had a massive victory last year. That is more to

the -- to do with the Government in England. Do you think it was more

an anti-Tory vote then a pro- independence vote? Yes, I think so.

I have never lived there, although I feel as Scottish as everyone else.

I have got no right to say what they should do. What worries me is

that the politicians will treat it as a propaganda exercise and not

give the Scottish people the facts. I have moved across the town from

the church to one of Corby's many social clubs. It has a heavy Scots

influence. Like the churchgoers, these regulars think that

independence is a non-starter. big thing around here is whether we

would be allowed the vote on that. Personally, I do not believe that

we should. We make our living in England and we really do not

deserve the vote down here. United we stand, divided we fall. We're

going to be in a Union, one way or another, whether that is the

British Union or the European Union. If Scotland becomes independent, we

are heading towards the European Union. I think we are stronger

within the UK. I agree. If Scotland became independent, the outstanding

debt that the United Kingdom has, that has to be divided. We are not

going to get away with saying we are our own country without any

debt. We need to take on part of the UK debt, and Scotland cannot

Scotland has changed dramatically over the last 50 years and I wonder

if these children rammers, and Howard was and not how it is. Could

that be colouring their view? think it is wrong. I think Scotland

should stay as it is and has not changed. If they take it away from

the UK, they are going to lose out on a lot of revenue. I think that

Mr Salmond is going against the British government to see what

extra power he can get. I do not think they want to go on their own

because I do not think they can manage anyway. I think he is trying

to get a lot of power from Cameron. A It depends how far they take it.

As a Scotsman, I want independence from England, definitely. But as

long as we can sustain it, in terms of money, yes, definitely, it is a

good thing. The court the Scots have clearly got no regrets about

moving here. They found jobs and brought up children and

grandchildren. Everyone I spoke to in Corby with few exceptions

believe in the Union between England and Scotland and do not

want to see any kind of split. Clearly, the opinion North of the