29/02/2012 Newsnight Scotland

will make Quemoy disjointed, not more joined-up. -- it will make

care more disjointed. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: The Justice

Secretary once again denies he urged the Lockerbie bomber to drop

his appeal in return for compassionate release, but his

statement leaves many still asking questions about why he was allowed

to go home. And a constructive meeting or

inappropriate and ill-advised? We weigh up the First Minister's

latest rendez-vous with Rupert Murdoch.

Good evening. The Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill told the Scottish

parliament this afternoon that he would have freed Abdel Basset Al-

Megrahi even if he had pressed ahead with a second appeal against

his conviction. In response to claims made in a book earlier this

week, Mr MacAskill insisted the Scottish government had no interest

in the decision to abandon the legal action. He added that he

would be entirely comfortable with any future appeal. Here's David

Allison. August 2009, the Justice Secretary

Kenny MacAskill visits the Lockerbie bomber at Greening prison.

The talk is over Abdel Basset Al- Megrahi been freed to return to

Libya, through the prisoner transport scheme or compassionate

release because he has cancer. Kenny MacAskill also had

conversations with the man shaking hands with McGraw he. It is what

was allegedly said in a private moment between the Scottish Justice

Secretary and the Libyan minister which is significant part of a new

book giving Al-Megrahi's version of events. He said the minister told

him he had had a conversation in private with Kenny MacAskill and he

indicated it would be easy to grant Al-Megrahi compassionate release is

the Minister dropped his appeal. He was not claiming he made that as a

demand. The Justice Secretary has insisted nothing untoward was

discussed, either with the Libyan minister or Al-Megrahi himself, and

he reiterated his point today. These claims are wrong. Minutes of

meetings related to it were made at the time and have, except with the

mission was not given by other governments, been published. The

minutes of my meeting with Libyan representatives is one of them.

These minutes are not here say, unlike the claims, but an accurate

record made at the time. These minutes have been in the public

domain since September 2009. In addition to the minutes kept, let

me be clear. Scottish government officials were present throughout

my meeting with the Libyan minister. At no time did I or any other

member of the Scottish government suggest to him, to anyone connected

with the Libyan government, or indeed to Mr Al-Megrahi himself

that abandoning his appeal against conviction would in any way aid or

affect his application for compassionate release. Lewis

Macdonald. Does he now accept that his conversations with both Mr Al-

Megrahi and the Libyan minister did indeed leave both men with the very

clear impression that withdrawing the appeal was the prudent thing to

do? Does he now regret either of those meetings and the way in which

he handled them? No. The attack did not just come from Labour. The

Scottish Conservatives used SNP backbenches words against Kenny

MacAskill. The allegation made in this book is the same allegation

previously made by Christine Grahame MSP, who said that she had

been told this very self-same thing by a whistleblower in the Scottish

Executive. To that extent, one allegation corroborates the other.

But according to Christine Grahame, Al-Megrahi had decided to drop his

appeal will before the August 2009 meetings. For my family's sake, I

decided I must choose prisoner transfer and on 23rd March are

assigned an undertaking to abandon the appeal. That considerably

predates any memos and anything said in his safe. These are direct

words from Al-Megrahi. Kenny MacAskill said he would have

released him even if he had not dropped his appeal but the Libyan

boiler fire stands by his claims. Kenny MacAskill made a ludicrous

point that a private conversation would have been minuted, that is

irrelevant, they would not have been. Al-Megrahi's decision to

abandon his appeal certainly lower the temperature surrounding his

controversial possible release from his prison cell at Greenock Prison,

and that in turn made the subsequent decision by the Justice

Secretary Kenny MacAskill to release him on compassionate

grounds slightly more palatable. But over two years after his

compassionate release because of terminal illness, the fact that the

only man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing is to live means many

details of this case remains highly contentious.

We did ask the Justice Secretary to appear on tonight's programme, but

he declined. I'm joined from Oxford by Dr Jim Swire, whose daughter

Flora died in the atrocity. Dr Jim Swire, in a way you think this

whole issue of who said what to whom is a bit of a sideshow? I do,

yes. I think it is a sideshow to a sideshow because I think the whole

story about Libya being involved in Lockerbie is probably a sideshow in

itself. It doesn't seem to me that any of the evidence points in that

direction holds up. If you look elsewhere in Mr Ashton's book, you

will see he produces evidence which shows that their famous fragment,

which purported to suggest that Al- Megrahi uses sophisticated digital

timer, thus enabling him to initiate the bombing route from

more top all the way around through Heathrow to Lockerbie, that

fragment was not made in the same way as the circuit boards of the

timers which the prosecution allege has been used. That allegation can

be subjected to objective scientific investigation and has

been, and as was shown in a recent TV documentary, and I think one of

the most appalling things about that allegation, again if you look

in the book you will see that there is a memo which Mr Ashdown obtained

access to which shows that the Scottish police force was given the

information about the discrepancy over the fragment of the time there

in 1999. It only got into the hands of the defence shortly before Mr

Al-Megrahi was allowed home to Tripoli and I want to know why it

all those years went by when that information, which would have been

crucial and destructive to the case against Al-Megrahi, was concealed

somewhere within either the police echelons or the Crown Office, and

not passed to the defence? This is in line with other allegations that

were made particularly with respect to the break in evidence at

Heathrow, which again appears to have been concealed somewhere...

Just to make this clear. The significance you think of the

evidence in the book and the documentary is that some of this

new information should have been available at the original trial?

What do you think that if there was information that showed that a key

item of forensic evidence was bogus and that the prosecution was given

information confirming this, and then failed to pass it to the

defence, that that was just a little bit unfair in terms of a

level playing field that the Scottish criminal law is supposed

to be providing? It goes along with the UN special Observer's comments

on Mistral, which was that it was grossly unfair and unrecognisable

as justice -- on this trial. How much of it lies with the police and

how much with the Crown Office, I do not claim to know. The problem

with you and the people who support your arguments is way you take them.

You have today written to the Prime Minister asking for a meeting.

Should you get that meeting, what will you be asking David Cameron to

do? One of the things I will be asking him to do is similar to what

we are talking about tonight. I would be asking him to look at the

minutes and the records because in 1988, when Lockerbie happened,

Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister and in January 1989 the

Metropolitan Police interviewed the guy who had found the break-in at

Heathrow and yet that evidence was clearly surprised and was have

known until after the verdict had been reached against Al-Megrahi.

Now, why was the evidence accumulated by the Metropolitan

Police not pass to the Scottish police had to go over the

investigation? Or was it passed to them and debate suppress it? I do

not know. Would you like to say to the Prime Minister, more than read

some documents? Are you asking him to launch a UK government public

inquiry? That is a very good question. It is not what I would be

asking him to do first. I think we should start with an investigation

initiated hopefully by the Scottish government because they have the

power to initiate an inquiry into this verdict and that inquiry could

cover both the activities of the Crown Office and the activities of

the Scottish police force around the investigation and it would be

much more difficult to expect a Westminster based inquiry... But

these are issues which could be a dress from it in Scotland and I

think it is well past time that someone took a bold step and set up

such an inquiry. That is what is requested by the justice for Al-

Megrahi Group, whose petition is currently in front of the Justice

Commission at Hollywood. I -- Holyrood. I imagine you thought it

was interesting that Kenny MacAskill leaving open the idea

that the Al-Megrahi appeal could be continued, even after Al-Megrahi

dives. That is not a new concept for us. Professor Robert Black, who

most people concerned with this verdict will know about, has

advised me that in the event that Al-Megrahi does die, his family

would be first on the list of people who would be considered to

in allowing the resumption of or a new appeal to take place and they

have to decide whether that appeal would be in the public interest,

and I think the family would have the first call. If the family did

not want to do that, people like me who have tragic involvement in this

terrible case might well apply to the Serc ourselves, but these

things will take a lot of time. Much quicker for the Scottish

government to take the matter in hand and say, we will have a

Scottish-based inquiry, an objective inquiry into why all

these aspects of the information that should have been shed was not

shared, and I think that will be sufficient to overturn the verdict.

Thank you. Now, the big news from News

International today was the departure of James Murdoch from his

father's newspaper empire. We can go one better. Rupert Murdoch

himself was in Scotland today, These pictures are of a previous

meeting. Today's event at Bute House was a private affair. Rupert

Murdoch described Alex Salmond as the most brilliant politician in

the UK. Relationships have swung to and fro over the last 20 years, but

a saint -- seemed to have settled in a position of mutual respect

recently. The Sunday Sun has an editorial attitude more open to

Scottish independence than any of the other Scottish newspapers.

Perhaps Mr Murdoch is feeling the pull of his Scottish roots. Perhaps

he feels a political dalliance with the prospect of a low-tax

environment in Scotland would send a suitable message to the other big

beasts in London. We did invite the SNP to take part

in a discussion, but they declined saying that it would be

inappropriate to comment on what was a private meeting. I am joined

by the political strategist formally for the SNP Ewan Crawford,

and labour's Willie Bain from Westminster. White you have a

problem with this? Good evening. I find it extraordinary that an

organisation which is subject to two judicial legs -- inquiries for

alleged criminal behaviour is getting advanced knowledge and

details of the date of a referendum about Scotland's constitutional

future when they should be given to the Scottish people and Scotland's

elected politicians first. I think most people think is wrong that the

SNP treated this important matter in this way and I think they are

suspicious about the cosy chats and dealings that are going on between

the SNP and Rupert Murdoch. Cosy chats and cosy dealing? New Labour

have several world records at cosying up to the world's --

Murdoch empire. Most people in the country are disgusted with the way

that these revelations about Milly Dowler and the other serial phone

hacking that has been dying on have come out. There are over 6,000

instances of phone hacking being investigated by the police. The

accusations of bribery with the police. Hang on. You are saying it

is all right for the Labour Party to cosy up to Murdoch before this,

but not all right now? People want to see clear roles put in place

about how much of the newspaper Industry, the TV and radio sector,

a single company can own. Alex Salmond would have done better

today to have hauled in Rupert Murdoch and shown leadership that

Ed Miliband and Harriet Harman have done in calling for a change of

leadership. Do you think Alex Salmond was wise to do is? It was

not fantastic timing today, given some of the events that have gone

on and some of the allegations that have been made, but there are two

separate things here. 1, appalling behaviour by some journalists who

are -- were employed by a News International. Everyone agrees that

was appalling and it will have ramifications for the whole of the

newspaper industry. On the other hand, they are legitimate

businesses. Sky employs 6,000 people in Scotland. As I understand

it, Rupert Murdoch asked for this meeting to talk about further

investment. Surely the First Minister could have got a cheap

headline and said that he was a going to meet Wigan Murdoch. On the

other hand, it seems reasonable to me that a major employer, one of

Scotland's biggest employers, was to discuss further air Investment -

- wants to discuss further investment, if you shut the door on

him, that would be odd. A lot of the meetings between, you know,

they were SMER and a sign. We put their bodies during the back door

at Downing Street. This was quite open. You could set -- shout at

Alex Salmond for being bad. Hold on. The whole issue last summer was

that the public and Parliament were at one that Rupert Murdoch should

not be allowed to take over sky. Achieve it -- if he was there to

talk about Sky... He is talking about jobs! The point that Willie

Bain is making is that we deponent -- Rupert Murdoch is not in a

position to do that. He is a major shareholder in that country. You're

talking about last summer, the whole Westminster village was in

uproar about Rupert Murdoch. It not stop many of your colleagues going

to a summer party on a social occasion, not a business are --

acacia. Less sector money please. Get real! The public is disgusted.

Not so disgusted that the embargo and enjoy Rupert Murdoch's

champagne. What we need to seek is a change in the media ownership in

this country. I do not disagree. News International has been engaged

in criminality because their own too much of the media. That is why

Ed Miliband and Harriet Harman are right to call for change in

ownership. If I could get a word in edgeways! The bottom line here is

that Alex Salmond might get some flak for this. But there is a

bigger prize. If he can convince the Murdoch newspapers to support

his campaign for independence in the referendum, everyone will Cedex

the row that Willie Bain is going to stirrup. The game for him is

enormous. As I understand it, that was not discussed at all. I am not

naive enough to think that, yes, politicians of all political

parties, I think Willie Bain is using it -- every political party.

I do not blame the Labour Party for cosying up to News International

over the last 20 years. Of course political party seek media

endorsements. That is the reality. As I understand it, that had

nothing to do with the meeting today, which was about the

thousands of people who are employed in Scotland. It is a

complete coincidence then that Murdoch has been tweeting about how

fantastic Alex Salmond is? As I understand it, Murdoch are

requested the meeting, not Alex Salmond. I genuinely think they are

not connected. Would it be a blow to Labour if Salmon's -- the

Scottish Sun supported independence? They are entitled to

take their own view. I do not deny they are. I asked whether you think

it would damage your point of view? I think what is interesting today...

When we have one in four young people in Scotland, one would hope

the First Minister would be talking about a plan for youth unemployment

instead of speaking with big business about a corporation tax

could. I think that says a lot about the nature of the Scotland at

Alex Salmond is trying to create. Briefly. I mean that. The Labour

Party boasted about corporation tax codes, but when it comes to the SNP,

it is unacceptable. A quick look at tomorrow's front

pages: One in 10 Scots to be jobless by the end appear in the

Scotsman. That is according to a report.

The Financial Times. James Murdoch, we have just been talking about him.

He has quit News International. The Guardian, government U-turn on

the work scheme. That is about whether it should be compulsory on

Oct. That is all we have time for

tonight. And back tomorrow night. Good evening. A cooler start

tomorrow than the last few days. There will be some frost in the

There will be some frost in the Midlands and East. It will brighten

up throughout the day. We will see sunny spells in their areas. There

will be a lot of cloud. In the Pennines and the Midlands and the

South, the cloud starts to break and we will see sunny spells. It

will be another mild stay with winds, temperatures peaking at 16

Celsius. Sun in the South West and Wales. A bit cloudier on the

western coast. We could see some showers across Snowdonia. In the

South and South East of Northern Ireland, it is bright and sunny,

but in the North West, rain putsches in dread the day. Some of

the patchy rain pushes into parts of Scotland, with a drop in

temperature. That rain tends to fizzle out. We hold on to a lot of

cat mac for Friday. Temperatures drop on Thursday. There is a lot