28/02/2012 Newsnight Scotland

leaving others to fight it out for Tonight on Newsnight Scotland., the

first official pronouncement of the European Commission on what status

an independent Scotland would have in the European Union. We will talk

to the Catalan member of the European Parliament who have been

pressing for answers. And if you do not want independence,

then you can have devo-max, the new Scotland Bill, you can have Menzies

Campbell's proposals from the Liberal Democrats or you can have

whatever emerges from the civic Scotland campaign. And you can now

have something called the Pope last, we will be asking what that might

be and whether this is all getting a bit silly -- something called

devo-max. There's been a debate going on for

some while about what an independent Scotland would be in

the European Union. Would it continue in membership or would

Scotland have to apply for membership? In a moment I will be

speaking to the Catalan member of the European Parliament tried to

get answers from the European Commission that first here's David

Allison. There is some flash photography in this report.

Your Scotland, your referendum. Alex Salmond is casting a long

shadow with his plans for an independence referendum in 2014.

And interest from foreign media means impact has been felt well be

on Scotland. When he held his press conference at Edinburgh Castle last

month, to launch the SNP's administration consultation process,

the First Minister was aware that countries such as Spain were paying

particular interest to what he had to say.

The media from Madrid would also be from the Basque region and

Catalonia to report back what it Now a Catalan MP wants answers from

the European Union. Ramon Tremosa, a liberal politician with a

background in economics submitted a written question to the European

Commission last month. In it, he points out that the UK has been

part of the European Union since 19 Another person had the task of

coming up with an answer from the European Commission and the rest of

the UK as well as Scotland. He says the commission is not able to

express any view given up the view and terms and result of any future

referendum are known as is the nature of possible future

relationships between the parties concerned and those parties and

European Union partners. As a fairly non-committal response

but does indicate that he and the President of the European

Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, say EU membership for Scotland as a

political issue rather than constitutional. In the Catalan

capital of Barcelona, the moves for a Scottish referendum and his

impact across the EU were being closely watched while in the Basque

country, tongue in cheek demands from pro-independence campaigners

have prompted headlines like this even here in the Scottish media.

Madrid it remains particularly wary although the Spanish Foreign

Minister was quoted at the weekend He said that no one would object to

consented independent of Scotland. But Spain recently did block moves

by the former Yugoslavia Republic of Kosovo to get EU membership

because it was based on a unilateral decision and so in

Spanish eyes was completely different. Since the SNP won a

majority, it has taken a while for Westminster to react. Now it

appears that the union is starting to take notice.

Just before we came on their eyes but to the Catalan MEP, Ramon

Tremosa that you saw there. He is a member of the majority party in

Catalonia. I began by asking him why he put this question to the EU

Commission. There are a lot of parallels between Scotland and

Catalonia. Like in Scotland, the opinion polls in Catalonia show

increasing demand for independence. We have, depending on the polls,

some give a 40% in favour but other polls give 50 present, 53% in

favour of independence and it is a clear majority feeling in people.

Unlike in Scotland, there is a huge majority, near 80% of cattle and

population, which wants real, fiscal federalism. -- near 80% of

the Catalan population. Collecting all the taxes and this includes all

the Spanish speaking people in Catalonia so I think we follow all

the debate and we admire how democracy exists in the United

Kingdom. With a British Prime Minister accepting the referendum.

Just to make clear to people, one of the issues in Spain is, as I

understand, is it written into the constitution that people in

Catalonia or the Basque country can not have a similar referendum?

but this constitution was written just after Franco died. The

military powers had a lot of employment -- had a lot of

influence. The Basque country was not a prude and Catalonia existed

in extension. -- the Basque country was not approved. This is why...

Basically you put the question because you would like to know, as

Catalans, should you have a similar vote what the situation would be of

either Scotland or Catalonia should either of them decide to become

independent? Yes, I wanted to intellectually know which would be

the answer of the European Commission. And as I could foresee,

at the European Commission said it was an internal issue of the United

Kingdom and if they were aware of any change, the United Kingdom

would make these steps necessary to deal with any situations. But I

wanted to go because in Catalonia, lot of people ask me about this

question so I put it to the commission. Are you satisfied with

the answer? The commission has basically said to you, about what

we don't really want to talk about this"! It is a polite and

democratic answer. The commission... I think that in Europe, everybody

knows that there will be a referendum in Scotland and if the

Scottish people vote easily and democratically, for independence, I

think that the rest of the European nations will accept a new state. So

this is why I asked all the MEPs from the political parties and we

are expecting... In Spain, I have doubts if the Spanish government

would accept a majority demand from Catalans or Basque people. Thank

you, it has been very interesting talking to you.

Thank you. So we were just getting used to the term devo-max being

bandied around and it led to a pressure group called Reform

Scotland and they have a go at selling as a new type of devolution,

devo-plus. Laura Bicker has been finding a out.

Basic choice is a good thing but what if you have no idea what on

earth you are choosing between? Devo-max or devo-plus. Do we know

what either would mean for Scott and? Under devo-plus, we would have

full control of income tax, corporation tax, plus some control

over welfare benefit. Devo-max has not been properly defined but it is

thought it would go further. We take on more welfare including

pensions, VAT, and national insurance. The mandate from the

people of the referendum is the best but just as tough and tax-

raising powers. Back at the launch of a new devo-plus brand today, it

seems not all the details have been nailed down. I pick the proposal

has been worked out, that is not to say that it will not be flexible

and changed going forward because we are getting lot of input from

Treasury and others about the details of the proposals and we

have to adapt. The broad philosophy is each level of government should

be responsible for raising the money that it spends. Individuals

from the Lib Dems, Tories and Labour have signed up although not

for all of the proposals. I am fully signed-up to the principle.

The overriding principle that each level of government should raise

the taxes that it spends because I think that way we address the

problem that Kenneth Calman identified, the lack of it

accountability. And they don't intend for the question of devo-

plus to be put to the people. have had a referendum on tax powers

for the Scottish Parliament. What devo-plus is about is extending

that. I think this question has been answered by people across

Scotland. They want to see their Palmer put more responsibility,

they want to see politicians doing things more responsibly. I think

the question has been dealt with. The Scots have heard a lot about

greater devolution over the past few weeks. The Prime Minister David

Cameron at the former Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling both

talked about giving more powers to Scotland. But outside of devo-max

and devo-plus, you have the Scotland Development -- the

Scotland Bill making his way through Westminster and the

nationalists campaigning for independence. Choice can be a good

thing. But is this constitutional choice just a bit confusing? And

anyway, it's not even clear that the Scot would get a chance to

With me is the leader of devo plus. And that share of the Scotland Bill

Committee. Jeremy Purvis, what are you proposing it should be done?

You do not want a referendum. group is not seeking it. What do

you want? We want to persuade the political parties to adopt the

proposals we have outlined. That is a clear aim. You would say the vote

no to independence but you would hope to be able to say one or more

of the political parties have adopted your plan. We are hoping to

go further as a group. We can have a cross-party view and see if there

is a consensus for additional powers for the Scottish Parliament

to address a real fault line... are still in the Liberal Democrats?

I am. Are you hoping to convince them? Each party has its own

process and they will come to their own views. We wish to inform the

debate. We want to the parties to adopt the proposal. I would love it

to be if I have a vote in the referendum, I will vote no to

independence but I want that to be a vote for change. I hope they can

be a consensus for that. According to the Scotsman, best MP backs devo

plus. Your party loves this? -- SMP. A party is clear. We stand for

independence. You are also abjectly desperate for a second question to

be in the referendum because you know that is what people want.

stand for independence... It is nonsense you want eight-second

question. We want the single question because we believe in

independence. We have said everyone in Scotland have a view, there is a

consultation, people should respond to the consultation. We will look

at what people are saying. That is clear. What is not is what these

parties are now dealing with devo plus. There are questions in there.

They do not know whether they want a second question. He has just said

he does and that one! I have heard other reports. -- and doesn't want

one. If the position of devo plus and not to have a second question?

The group is not seeking one. sounds to me like it is putting it

off. Are we have heard it all before. We heard it in the 1970s.

It took us 20 years to get our Scottish Parliament. The debate is

on and it is about whether Scotland should be independent. People can

contribute. Let me read you a paragraph. They have learnt a

strong body of opinion are lined up behind devo plus and the First

Minister could agree to include a referendum -- that in the

referendum. The First Minister has always said the consultation is

there, people can contribute, if they have a large body of opinion

coming up from six Scotland that a second question could be considered,

it would be considered. You may have Alex Salmond on your side, or

at least that the new. What about David Cameron? According to the

Scotsman, he was. I bet you're glad you are left -- you asked your seat.

-- Young lost. People should be making a clear choice. We hope as a

group of the choice between independence and devo max -- devo

plus. That is why we are hoping that the parties will look at this.

There will be a set of proposals. It is not just about... I can

appreciate a level of confusion may exist but that is why we have

established this, to be specific. Are you sure about what you are

watching for? One of the implications of the policies or the

policies you are outlining -- the proposals, is to do with the

British welfare system. There is no constitutional reason why a winter

fuel payments should be reserved by it the Treasury. Under your

proposals, as you know, the welfare system... Pensions will continue to

be reserved for Westminster. Scotland is doing badly compared to

the UK, UK taxpayers will continue through the benefits system.

Correct. That is a pretty important benefit. Does the 8th MP want to

disband the UK benefits system? -- SNP. You need to have the palace to

do it the best for the citizens. To say you are not going to include

pensions and to say the welfare system does not tie in with the tax

raising powers, I think that is creating problems. You see the

force of a point? One of the benefits of the UK is when

particular parts are doing badly, just as in the US, the whole of the

UK automatically through the benefits system, money is shovelled

into areas doing badly. In an independent Scotland, you would not

have that. A Scotland that was doing badly -- badly would have to

subsist on tax revenues. independent Scotland would be a

normal country, same as many other countries in Europe. It would take

its own in decisions to the benefit of citizens. There is no reason why

Scotland would do badly. Scotland is doing better than the UK at the

moment. Why do you think that is wrong? I think the way the UK

operates provides a risk and benefit system. When it goes well,

Scotland shares that but if there are difficulties, there can be

equalisation across the UK. Offaly, that is the benefit of being in the

UK. -- obviously. The F MP want to tell us they are not breaking up

the UK, it is a social union. -- SMP. We maintain social union.

does that mean? It is about being good neighbours. He does not mean

anything at all, then? I think the reality of this discussion is at

the Scottish National Party, if they had not won a good majority,

are we not be having this discussion. People would be trying

to kill devolution. Why not put your question... I know there are

problems with devolution but why not stick something on a

referendum? If you are a unionist and you want to shoot the Scottish

Nationalist Party, why not? It was nine years ago that David Steel

really is these issues. I wrote a paper on having more powers. This

predates the Scottish National Party coming to office her in 2007.

There are those who believe the party should be stronger. --

apartment. That is why we believe in the case for devo plus. A look

at tomorrow's papers. In the Daily Mail... Chris Huhne will pocket the

money despite being at the first Cabinet minister to be forced from

office. At the Guardian, activists killed in rescue of British

journalist from Syria. The Independent, hip replacements. That

For most of Oz, Tuesday was a cloudy but mild day, particularly

across the East. -- most of us. Most of us will have a grey start

tomorrow. Things will brighten up in the afternoon. In the north-east

of England, they will see decent breaks. Temperatures will lift to

14 degrees. It will stay cloudy for East Anglia. You could see brighter

spells later. The best of the brakes are likely further west. Are

a much sunnier day for south-west England. There are sunny spells.

Temperatures reached 11 degrees. In Northern Ireland, a similar day to

yesterday. Western Scotland keeps the blagged of cloud with a few

spots of rain. Staying rather cloudy for most of us, particularly

in the morning. Things will turn writable stop in London,