24/09/2012 Newsnight Scotland


24/09/2012

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150,000 people have asked for. On Newsnight Scotland tonight:

:00:12.:00:16.

Is it a credible idea that it might be Labour voters who breathe life

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into the campaign for Scottish independence? The organisers of

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Saturday's demonstration in Edinburgh said they were proud of

:00:22.:00:29.

their broad-church approach. Also tonight:

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Is prejudice against gypsy travellers the last bastion of

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socially unacceptable attitudes? An MSPs' committee finds some

:00:33.:00:37.

uncomfortable statistical evidence. Good evening.

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Voters usually have to choose a political party in a fairly

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monolithic way. For example, if you like party A's social policies,

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you're going to be voting for their economic ideas too. But with a

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referendum issue, it's different. Opinion polls in recent years have

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often suggested that SNP voting preference is well ahead of support

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for independence, but now the idea's emerging that some people

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who support the Labour Party might be quite keen on the idea of

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Scottish independence. David Allison went to Saturday's

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demonstration in Edinburgh to search for the Labour Vote Yes

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campaign. Across the meadows and the capital,

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something different was growing. But what? In among this pro-

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independence rally, there was what you would expect in terms of

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affiliation, banners, and dress sense. But there was also something

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new and out of the ordinary. A group called Labour for Scottish

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independence. So, Labour for independence. What

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is going on? Is it some kind of double allegiance? Or is it some

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kind of nationalist front pretending to be Labour? They

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insist they are exactly what they say they are. Labour people in

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favour of independence. The a claim to have 1,000 members

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and their Facebook site has 1,000 likes. Are you a Labour person or

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you want to say you are? It is amazing the number of times I

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have heard this. I'm a Labour Party member, and have been for 10 years.

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I have supported Labour all my life. We disagree with the policy of the

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better to get the campaign. I believe Scothern would be better as

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an independent country. The marchers set off for the rally

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while many were unaware of who had joined their ranks. How do veterans

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feel about these Johnny-come-lately These are the arch enemy, anyway. I

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think we are entering a new political... A new political time

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in Scotland. It is all going to change. Everybody is going to be

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looking at it with their own eyes. Maybe the old Left have the right

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thing might disappear. - left-right thing.

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For those in favour of independence, the polls are still a long way off.

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But depending on how we vote in two years, Scotland could be said for a

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political earthquake. Some people see this as the start

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of something new, a sort of independence politics.

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Labour Party members were not the only ones coming from a different

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point of view and the way down to the rally. But a skirmish over a

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Union Jack showed there were limits over who was welcome and he was not.

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Speaking of being welcome, what about Labour for independence and

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the Labour Party? They must think you are about as

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welcome as a fart in a spacesuit! We have not officially heard

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anything from the Labour Party. Despite the support we have been

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getting from social media, public opinion is that it is not a large

:03:56.:04:06.
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majority of people. But there our discussions.

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So, as Alex Salmond, who is to do it himself as trek, rallied the

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crowd, would be the higher echelons of the SNP make of having in a band

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-- Labour for independence on board? It is not just the SNP. Them

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up for our people from all political parties and no political

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parties. Significantly, a contingent of Labour supporters who

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think the best picture Oscar and his independence, where the can

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take our own positions. In a way, they are the enemy. How

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are you about having them on board? It is about more than party

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politics. I welcome everybody and anybody to this campaign.

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I realise that many of you are proud to call yourself

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nationalists... This is a former Labour MP and MSP.

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So, as Alice prepared his be, perhaps the crowd was prepared for

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the concert of labour for independence. -- Alex.

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If it is any consolation, I think everybody is wondering why we are

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here. Is it like passing the rubric on

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for you, doing that speech? -- Ruby Khan.

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I'm happy to speak to so many people. What we need to do now is

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get the message across further. This is not about breaking up the

:05:38.:05:48.
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Labour Party. I just want an honest, Clearly, Labour for independence is

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hardly on-message for the Labour Party. But with the SNP keen to get

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a devolution Max selection on the ballot box, constitutional things

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are getting fuzzy around the edges. I'm joined now from Edinburgh by

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Simon Pia, journalist and until recently a Scottish Labour spin

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doctor who served three party leaders. And here in Glasgow, Jean

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Freeman, formerly a special adviser to Labour First Minister Jack

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McConnell, now a founding member of Scottish Women for Independence.

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Have you always been independence minded?

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No, I haven't. I have been a Labour voter for most of my adult life. I

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did not believe that we needed independence. But actually, what

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has changed my mind is the experience of devolution. I have

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seen what in Scotland we can choose to do that goes with the grain of

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who we are in Scotland, and now, what I want is the opportunity to

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have all the powers that a nation should have to make the decisions

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for our future, for our children's future, and the thing I think about

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the Yes Scotland campaign which is so good is that it's beyond party

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politics and is about ambition and hope. That is what I am four.

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And your experience in government as a specialist adviser, did that

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shape your view? I think it gave me confidence that in Scotland, we can

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make decisions for ourselves. We can be accountable for those

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decisions. We can make the right choices. It convinced me, by seeing

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what we can do in education, what we can do in health, that we can

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also make those decisions on the economy.

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Does that persuade you? I think working in government can

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twist your views. I don't think that applies to her in particular.

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I actually think, I don't want to sound rude or dismissive, but I

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think it is a fairly insignificant movement or section of the Labour

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Party. What it does reflect, there's no getting away from people

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like Jean who went away from the party, but there's a vacuum there.

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I have been urging Labour to fill that, about what the other to offer

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us a vision for Scotland in the 21st century. Labour has had a

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stasis and it has not adjusted to whether or not we are going to move

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forward and have more devolution. But Scottish home rule is as old as

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the Labour Party itself. Go back to 1901, it was in our manifesto in

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1945, and I think there's a lot of common ground in politics in

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Scotland and many areas. People like Jean and I could sit around a

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Is there anything that would persuade you to vote yes?

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Ultimately, I think we are better together because I still feel a

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Solidarity with people in the labour movement and what they have

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achieved throughout in Manchester, London, Wales, where every you want

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to go. I still think these are the strongest points about what my

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politics are. What independence is getting offered to us by the SNP is

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very unclear. The monetary union seems to be a remaining thing. The

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monarchy... I do not think there is a clear enough alternative that

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life would be that different. need to give Jean Freeman a chance

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to come in at this point. There will be people in the Labour Party

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that share that view. Simon says people in favour of independence

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and who vote Labour are the minority. A I am not sure I agree.

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There is a big difference in the number of Labour Party members and

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voters who would be willing, at this early stage, to join that

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rally and the number of people who are Labour Party supporters who

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feel the party has disconnected from them. I agree with Simon in

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many ways. The Labour Party did not think beyond a Scottish Parliament,

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did not think beyond devolution, even though Donald Dewar said it is

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a process, not an end in itself. The problem is, all the Labour

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Party is offering at the moment is vote no and we will see. That is

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not good enough. Scotland is an ambitious, creative, till --

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talented country and we want to make our own decision as. Simon,

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the leader in Scotland is making a speech on the future direction of

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the party tomorrow. What do you want her to say? I have always been

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a bit of a federalist. I think she will identified areas in which we

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will move forward. Why do not know the specifics of what she will say.

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-- I do not know. I think we should try and find out what people really

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want. People do not want separation. We live in an integrated society

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throughout the UK. People should appreciate that a lot more. People

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should not be so negative about being part of the union. Separation,

:11:29.:11:39.
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or independence, is not an answer to the problems. Thank you.

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Here are some statistics that might surprise you. Did you know two-

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thirds of people would be unhappy if a member of their family formed

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a relationship with a gypsy traveller? And how about this?

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Nearly a quarter of people thought travellers were unsuited to be

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primary school teachers. Those survey findings found their way

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into a Holyrood committee report into the treatment of travellers in

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modern Scotland. But most alarming for committee members were reports

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of families being turned away from GP and dentist surgeries in what is

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supposed to be a free and universal healthcare system.

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Gypsy traveller up brother and sisters this morning. Nobody is

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quite sure how many travellers they are in Scotland. One estimate says

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1,500. Another says 15,000. That is if you include those who live in

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houses. How could you be in trouble if you live in a house? The Equal

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Opportunities Committee considers gypsy traveller has to be a

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distinct ethnic group. Whether they consider a caravan or a cottage as

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home. However defined, attitudes to this community have shocked

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committee members. When it comes to access to health care, they are

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angry. It should be universal, they say, but it is not. Back in

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Montrose, the father of these children recognises the picture

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MSPs paint. They say, you're not part of the community. It is our

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culture. They should realise that. Scottish, Irish, Welsh travellers,

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it does not matter who you are, they must recognise traveller Purim

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a by now. They should help us. -- travellers are by now. This is not

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even the first or second time parliament has looked at this

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problem in recent years. We first looked at it in 2001. It was a

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broad inquiry at the time. The thing that came across more than

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anything was through all the inquiries no progress had been made.

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It was almost as if it was a futile exercise. For government says it is

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up to local NHS boards to ensure people recognise cultural diversity

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and they should be no barriers to travellers. But a gypsy travellers

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remain a community unwanted and unloved by many other Scottish

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communities. As long as attitudes to them remain as negative as they

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appear to be, it is hard to imagine their lot improving as quickly as

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the committee might like. Annabel Goldie is here. She served on the

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committee that throughout their investigation. How would you feel

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if a traveller community moved in to an area near where you live?

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Would you welcome them? I think if the traveller community was

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behaving responsibly and wanted to respect the rights of other members

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in that committee, there is no issue. What the report if exemplify

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his and represents other profound concerns which the Equal

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Opportunities Committee had on the evidence we got. I just want to

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test your own views on one of the other areas. What about if somebody

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in your family was dating a member of the gypsy traveller community?

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would welcome them to my family. I am in a fortunate position. As a

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young person, I grew up in the country where the annual visit by

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travellers was a welcome part of the seasonal time. They helped the

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farming community, they were part of my mother local country life.

:15:47.:15:57.
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it seems your view it is a minority view. -- part of my map local

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country life. The report lists a lid on a mixture of things that

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have not been happening that should have been happening. Issues of

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prejudice which are there that many people thought had disappeared and

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were outdated. Perhaps, most importantly, we need to recognise

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gypsy travellers and their community is a respectable every

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minority grouping. It is entitled to the same protection as any other

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group. It does not seem to enjoy that. Changing attitudes is

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difficult. In terms of public services like the NHS, can the

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Government to do something concrete to ensure equal access Questor rock

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the Scottish government has been co-operative. -- to ensure equal

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access? The committee has said if we discover there are inadequate

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services, patchy provision of GP services, for example, patchy

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provision of quality services from local authorities, we think the

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Scottish government can give a strategic lead and start saying to

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these agencies, have you got standard practice is in place to

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understand the culture? There must be heightened awareness of that

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culture. Thank you. A quick look at culture. Thank you. A quick look at

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