25/09/2012 Newsnight Scotland

and we are told fully signed toupt Tonight, on Newsnight Scotland, the

end of the "something for nothing" political culture?

Labour leader, Johann Lamont, questions free tuition fees, free

prescriptions and the council tax freeze.

We'll ask her if this is the way to win back the voters.

And, the Head of the new National Police Force has been appointed.

So, what are the challenges that face Stephen House?

Good evening. All public services must be paid

for somehow, but whether they are free at the point of use, charged

for or means tested is always politically controversial.

Today, Johann Lamont suggested some of us are getting too much for free.

She questioned whether tuition fees, personal care, prescription charges

and pensioner bus passes should be paid out of general taxation.

Whatever the principle of targeting resources, is the political reality

that the only people getting a freebie out of this are the SNP?

Here's Jamie McIvor. Free prescriptions for all. Free

university tuition. The rock also melt with the sun before I allow

tuition fees to be imposed on Scottish students. Free personal

care for the elderly. All those, plus a whole host of other popular

policies still delivered while public finances are under huge

pressure. Now, Labour is set to consider other policies like this

and whether they are really affordable. What I'm calling time

on today is the dishonest option on what we can do. I'm withdrawing

from the game where politicians look, not at needs, but at slogans

and ask, not how to improve the lot of the Scottish people, what can we

bribe them with by claiming it is free? Are free services for

everyone handouts for the affluent or the embass arment of means

testing? We have a confused view about what services should be free,

what facilities should be free and what we should charge for those

that we do charge for. If you look at the example I give, local

authorities, where we assume, through law, that library services

or some of them should be free, that sports facilities should be

charged for and that leisure facilities like theatres and so on

should be charged for, it's a mess. We haven't had the discussion about

it that we need. The introduction of free prescriptions for all

wasn't without controversy. Supporters argue it may save money,

both on bureaucracy and helping prevent serious medical conditions.

Should the wider debate be focused purely on whether a free service

actually saves cashover all not about a policy's popularity?

the discussion is focused on free personal care for older people.

Free bus passes. Bridge tolls as those were the only things one

should look at. I think we should look at a wider range of services

and facilities and try and come to some kind of sense of which do we

think should be free for a lot of good reasons that go beyond just,

oh, that would be nice, but in terms of their ability to save

money in the longer term. Still, there is no doubt some universal

benefits are popular. Free bus travel for older people can be a

liberation. Is it the best use of scarce resources? I reckon it's

part of our overall confusion about what we make free in terms of

public services and what we charge for. I have the advantage of having

free bus travel. Of having received a cheque for �200 for winter fuel

allowance. The moment I turn 60. I don't think that is appropriate. I

think that should be taken into account in terms of the level of

taxation I pay. There is a straight-forward political

challenge here too. We probable won't know Labour's conclusions

this side of the independence referendum. Might that help the SNP

to portray opponents of independence as supporters of cuts

and charges? Of course, Labour is also fighting to regain power at

Holyrood in 2016. Going into an election telling voters they will

have to pay for something that is currently free could prove a high-

risk strategy. The Scottish Labour Leader, Johann

Lamont, is with me now. If we look at some of the statements today in

your speech today. You said "if we wish to continue with some poll

sisz there will have to be increased taxation, direct charges

or cuts elsewhere." That is the basic premise? It's true that the

report commissioned by the SNP and Campbell Christy's report focused

on the issue of affordability. Free services are desirable, but are

they affordable? The simple point was made, in tough times would it

be fair for those who can afford it to pay more in order we can direct

resources towards those who need them most? I want an honest debate

around that. I think that is something across the political

spectrum, referring to what the professor said, I hope people will

get engaged in. Will you review free personal care for the elderly?

There is a series of policy -- choices the SNP have made. We need

to look at these and the consequences of them. The council

tax freeze, your reporter said it that you have cut in services or

what the SNP have? We have cuts in our services. I met with

careworkers who talked about their conditions, 15 minutes to visit

somebody. Focus on task and back out the door. That isn't support

for elderly. School secretaries are telling me how they are managing

budgets. Young people who are teachers are concerned about not

having a job. These cuts are happening now. I want an honest

debate which says in tough economic times when there is austerity

should we look at these services and look are they

disproportionately benefiting those who are better off. Nothing is off

the table. The test is, you know, is it affordable? What are the

benefits of it? What are the opportunities that are lost? For

example, on prescriptions, we are giving away free prescriptions, we

are park of the United Kingdom where we have least access to San

ker drugs. We have fewer nurses than we had three years ago.

the avoidance of doubt let's clarify some of the issues you will

look at. You will review free personal care for the elderly?

of people wouldn't be able to afford it anyway. There is a

concern that the care that people pay for, currently the charges are

going up, older people are concerned about. That I have

already made the point about the quality of the care. My basic

premise, is in all of these questions you test them, you test

them against the evidence. It feels to me currently that free personal

care looks as if you wouldn't get benefit from getting rid of. It you

have to test it against the evidence. That is what I'm asking

for. Are you suggesting it's not affordable in it is current form

and some people should pay more? The kind of care that people are

getting is unacceptable. If you listen to what careworkers are

saying. It isn't working. We put more public money into that or we

means test it? You make the choice. You make the choice. You look at it

and decide what the benefits of it. Are we going to fund it. If we fund

that what else has to go? Is there a consensus in the country about

how much taxation we pay? What the SNP tell us, it's possible to have

high quality services, free services, with low-taxation. Alex

Salmond himself constantly talk abouts cutting taxes. In

Scandinavia, where you have high quality services you have a funding

package that goes with that. I want to engage with that in a serious

and difficult political debate on how to fund these things. There are

multiple options here. They are difficult questions. If we could

progress through some of the ideas to confirm what you are looking at

before we get into the ideas. to clarify what is underpinning

this is the assertion the SNP make that we are living tpwh this

perfect world and the reality on the ground is very different from.

That I want the debate... I think that point has been made. If we can

be quite clear. You will look at free personal care for the elder

with the prospect of some people having to pay for that more? Is

there any merit in the suggestion that went into the coalition

government that should be some contribution of no more than

�35,000 per person for free personal care, is that an area you

will look at? Will you consider all We are clear about the benefits.

But I am concerned it is not properly funded. There is a grave

concern that that what is happening is a transfer of resources from

further education to higher education. These things may be good

in themselves but they have to be delivered in a way that... We are

looking at university fees and how we fund aspiration for young people

to make sure they get a good start. It is about further education and

higher education. What we have seen in the SNP is an inability to

direct that tough debate towards dogma what they have done is to

erect resources from one to the other. What you are looking at is

free personal care for the elderly, potentially introducing tuition

fees. I did not say that. I said we need to look at the consequences.

The current funding decisions made by the Education Secretary...

critical. You must know the potential options. I am not be a

fan of tuition fees but there is a funding issue. We know the

universities are concerned. We know the further education sector are

concerned about cuts to their sector. The First Minister just

says, that is not true. Would you put in end to the council tax fees?

We have said it is underfunded. -- tax freeze. There is a consequence

of huge pressures at a local level. The freeze is be imposed by the

Scottish government. You would put more money into subsidising the

freeze or in the? We have made a commitment to redress the funding

of local government. The SNP are expecting the council tax to wither,

they are not funded the fees, beating the gap and they are not

proposing another option. We know people do not accept council tax,

it is a popular. But there is no alternative from the SNP. If what

is your alternative? We are looking in more detail at the alternative.

It could be about proving the fairness of council tax. It is a

very hard question. I appreciate how difficult this is. But you

cannot do what they are doing, just imposing a council tax freeze, not

funding it and not looking at alternatives. They are going into

the courts... One the alternative would be to stop the freeze. For we

have to look at the consequences. You are arguing you know the

consequences. I am reflecting on something serious that I have to

deal with in the people being responsible for what they are

saying. Families are having to catch up. That is not sustainable

over time. It is unacceptable to impose a freeze on local

authorities, denied them funding her and then take no responsibility

for the consequences. You spoke about taxation and the potential

for increasing revenue. How much room is there for increasing

taxation? The that is at the debate we have to get into. In 2011, we

lost the argument on taxation. Council tax is not popular. In

tough economic times, people do not want to pay more tax. I understand

that. The equation remains the same. The high quality services cannot be

funded with the money. That is a huge challenge. This is genuinely

where I want to be wet the SNP were in 2010 in asking some of these

questions. I want to get to a place where this people of Scotland can

have an argument about whether choice falls between taxation and

services. Is the lack sufficient for the freedom you would like in

raising taxes? We are going to it and -- another place altogether. I

have said within the budget, there are active choices. What we had

today from the SNP is the choices are over there and they have not to

be questioned at we are not to look at the consequences. They are

saying we will deal with the rest of the Budget. In my view, it is a

Budget that does not address the question of the economy, employment

and education. If you just look at specific proposals you might bring

forward, will the details of these proposals be available to the

public for them to assess before any vote on independence? We will

bring the these proposals forward as early as possible. Before the

referendum? What is curious is the SNP do not want to act on their own

report ahead of the referendum. Whatever we do, whether it is on

the constitution, we have to be honest. You will go to the

electorate before the vote to say these are the details? A I am keen

to go beyond the party-political squabbling. We will do Roy Burke

pop. But there is a broader debate in the package. -- we will do our

part. We need good demands on all sides and how to make choices among

them. You would not expect me after I lost an election if to sort this

all out myself a comeback with a package. I want a dialogue and I

want to the SNP to live up to their own aspirations with how we deal

with providing high quality services. What is not credible is

for them to say we have austerity cuts from the UK Government which I

have condemned, a smaller budget and somehow these services must

remain unquestioned. Thank you. The first Chief Constable of the new

police service of Scotland will be Stephen House. Mr House is

currently Chief Constable of strathclyde - one of eight forces

which merge next April. He moves to this new post within the next few

weeks. Stephen House says his priority

will be to make the people of Scotland safe. Walker we expect? He

spent five years as Chief Constable at Strathclyde. High on his agenda

was the West of Scotland curse of gang violence and knife crime. He

was committed to other things, too. It is time to think again. We need

to start again. No sensible person would have eight police forces in

Scotland. He supports the government of up plans for minimum

pricing on alcohol. People will spill out onto the street and then

have clashes with the neighbours. That leads to violence. It can be

within the house itself because people have been drinking for so

long. The violence levels go up and up and weapons come up to hand and

people get stabbed and can dive. Like supporting anti- sectarian

issues. We have got an agreement that police officers will give

briefings to players ahead of the matches so that ticks one box.

is a high profile, politically sensitive road and that Stephen

House will go public on his approach tomorrow.

I'm joined by Dr Kenneth Scott, who is director of the Centre for

Criminal Justice and Police Studies at the University of the West of

Scotland. I do you surprised by the appointment? Not at all. I do not

think many people will be surprised. Stephen House has all along been at

one of the biggest supporters of a single force. He comes from the

largest force in Scotland so a step from Strathclyde that covers half

of the country, over 60% of the cried in the country had to a

national force is not that surprising. It is not that popular

with it the other forces? No. There was quite a debate at the time of

the idea of a national force had their array number of Chief

Constables and a number of areas in the country that are not

particularly happy about a single force. They feel it will take away

a lot of the local element and policing -- in policing. One of the

problems Stephen House has his it confirms the view this will be a

force that is focused on the central belt. What are the big

challenges? They first one is to get it up and running of the 1st

April next year. In a way, that restores public confidence. There

is work going on to do with that. It will only need some a major

problem on the day for those people who have said this is a mistake to

say we have been proved right. There is a lot of work to be done

that just to make sure there is a seamless transition. The other big

problem, of course, which will have to be faced is the main government

argument for a single police force is to save money. And so there will

be major issues of how to fit within it are quite stringent

budget commitments that have been given about how much cost will be

reduced by having a single force. What do you think in terms of

Stephen House's record? Local accountability, he says, is very

important. What do you think we can read from what if he has championed

in the past? I think he hit for a lot of the buttons that go down

well with the public. One of the steps he took was to reduce the

number of superintendant ranks and put resources into the front line.

Obviously, one of the big things the people of Scotland want from

the force is good, effective local policing, a policeman on the front

line. I think that strike a chord. One of the interesting challenges

his crime rates in Scotland are very low. The Ardennes in

Strathclyde. One of the features of Strathclyde has been a reduction in

the crimes of violence. -- they are very low in Strathclyde. The

challenge is how to sustain that. And how to sustain it over the

whole country with all that variation you have. There may be

different policing all cultures within Scotland. Will it be

impossible it would be someone from outside to would be in charge of

this single false? I don't think it was impossible. -- single false. I

think it had to be someone who had a background in Scottish policing.

I think the probability was someone who had a good track record in the

largest force was going to be... are almost out of time. The hall

politicisation has been controversial. That is something

that will have to be looked up. The Scottish government has been

careful but it is only the start of the process and we do not know

where this will go. Thank you. A quick look at tomorrow's papers.