11/10/2012 Newsnight Scotland

apparently willing to escalate that role in the hope of speeding the

Tonight, it looks like a snap election in Catalonia next month

will in effect turning to a referendum on independence from

Spain. Other parallels with the situation here? If there are, do

they favour the Scottish nationalists or their opponents?

And there they ate the Scotland students heckle the Queen. The

events at Stirling University 40 years ago that were shocking.

As a collection called by the Catalan leader Artur Mas could

determine the future of Spain as unified state. The effect of the

banking collapse, bank failures, mass unemployment and the bail-out

of the government by the European Union, are raised and social

tensions in Spain to levels not that far from the fissures now

running through Greek society. In Catalonia, itself now asking to be

bailed out by their Spanish state, it had led to not just demands for

growing independence but a mass movement in the street.

It has been hot in Barcelona this week, even by Catalan standards.

And the political temperature is rising as well. Pro independence

sentiment has increased duty spent -- tension with the Spanish

government and the economic crisis hitting Catalan's wallet. Many

people have believed, I personally believed, that the Catalonia's are

paying. We a bridge builders. And the president of Catalonia, I have

been called a bridge builder between the Spain and Catalonia.

Even they have been called, as a bowl Walker against it. Today that

has changed. The position of Spain towards Catalonia, has become much

more aggressive and negative. million people took to the streets

of Barcelona last month to agitate for an independent Catalan state,

with proceeded disrespect towards the Catalan language one of the

moment motivating factors. They have been telling us that if you

want to belong to Spain, you have there been less Catalan. So our

answer is, understood, and coat -- OK, then we do know what the

Spanish any more. Nationalists in both countries like to compare

Scotland and Catalonia. Those who favour a union with Spain think it

is invalid. TRANSLATION: Catalonia has formed part of Spain for more

than 500 years. In Scotland, it was the product of the union between

Scotland and the England with James the first. Spain was created

differently, it has always been a union of territories. Catalan has

been a part of Spain for their -- many years in a different way from

Scotland and England. After the Catalan President's calls for third

-- further care -- fiscal autonomy were vetoed by the Spanish

government, he called snap elections. After that, the Catalan

hopes to hold a referendum on independence. TRANSLATION: In the

history of the last 300 years, the Spanish state has been

characterised by having great difficulties in respecting the

democratic will of the Catalan people. This house was closed. All

the collective rights of the people of Catalonia were eliminated. Our

courts were overruled, as was our Parliament. The current

constitutional impasse can be dated back to Franca's victory in the

Spanish Civil War. A constitution which was adopted when democracy

was restored called upon the Spanish armed forces to the

community of space. -- Spain. In the Spanish government's you, that

would make any referendum on independence illegal, but in

Barcelona, even those who want to see Catalonia stay in Spain think

that has to change. We need to reform the constitution, that was

very useful for the beginning of democracy but now will probably it

is time to change the constitution. It is time to create a real federal

Spanish state. And probably, this means at the end of the day, and

also an agreement as we see it, in the UK case, we will end up with a

-- the citizens saying exactly what they once. But if a referendum is

not possible, what then? The government in Barcelona says it

wants to me guested with Madrid. If they have negotiations fail,

Catalan parliament will come under pressure to declare independence

unilaterally. It is obvious that the break with the present

legitimacy will be necessary in one way or another. Spain refuses to

live up to its international commitments in the sense of, in the

fact that in 1966 it signed the United Nations acknowledgement of

the right of nations to self- determination. And yet, it does not

live up to that commitment. Without a referendum, it's hard to tell

just how deep or how wide support for independence really is. But if

Catalonia did go for independence, it would be felt across Europe, and

not least in Scotland. I am joined from Edinburgh by Alyn

Smith, the SNP MEP, and by Maryshell Ramirez-Oya, the

President of the cultural organisation Scotland Catalan

sector. -- centre. Bring us up today, there is going to be an

election next month. Is that election in effect going to be a

sort of money referendum on independence? Well, I think the

President of Catalonia, Artur Mas, and the other pro-independence

parties will take a similar approach to the one that Alex

Salmond took over the last Scottish elections. They ask Catalans to

vote for them and create a political majority in parliament,

and if this is the case, Artur Mas and the other pro independence

groups have promised that they will hold a referendum. Howl in your

view you get round this, there is a conflict of fright against right.

On the one hand, as we had, some people say Spain as a country is

not respecting its formal commitment to sell -- self-

determination by refusing to allow the people of Catalonia to have a

referendum. On the other hand, they can say, look, the constitution

itself was within recent memory voted for and approved by the

people of Spain, including the vast majority of the people of

Catalonia? But things and time have changed. That constitution was used

for on that time, at the transition period, it was approved under a

different situation and different circumstances. Constitutions should

not actually be prisons. They should be frames, flexible frames

for the citizens of that state to live and felt comfortable. Its

owner, I think most political parties, even some Spanish

politicians think other Spanish politician -- constitution should

change. Do you think it is because of this issue of not being allowed

to have an referendum that the nationalist movement in Catalonia

is turning rapidly into a movement on the streets, rather than just a

political movement? De it is one of many. -- that is one of many. The

legal issues, and some of the legal restrictions that are Catalan

government has had over the last years especially in relation to the

regional laws, is one. But also the economic crisis has hit very hard,

many people and many Catalans. It is one of the factors, not the only

one. Alyn Smith, DC any parallel? For the start, the Yes to

Independent's campaign could only dream of getting a million and a

half people out on the streets. They got 5000 of the day. Very

committed people on the length and breadth of Scotland, young, or old,

rich, poor, watching hopefully with a common and United aim. The people

who were out in Barcelona, I think it was something like 8% of the

entire population of Catalonia. talk as if this is something new.

On the 11th September, Catalonia's National des, there has always been

1 million people on the streets for the best part of 20 years. You guys

are just catching up with this. The Catalans have always had a very

strong Catalan identity. That is different to the political question,

very different to the proposition facing us in Scotland. It is a

quite dangerous logic. The fact that a start -- Scotland is having

a constitutional discussion about the future, and Catalonia has

questioned about the economy, relations with Madrid and elsewhere,

does not mean they are linked. I do not see that many similarities in

This is not some far continent. This is where a lot of people in

Scotland go for their holidays. Of course it is going to affect the

way they say their holiday -- independence.

The closest revolution we have had is in Iceland. The most democratic

country in the world had a people's revolution in a peaceful manner. A

lot of country is have a lot of people saying, how on earth did we

get here? How did the banks get away with that? Habibie governments

let this happen? Is it working for us? -- How did the Government's let

Do you believe, I know you personally support independence,

but do you believe that the 1.5 million people who turned out the

other week are Catalan nationalists, or they just primarily very angry

at what is going on? It is difficult to know. It is

difficult to translate what people say in the street and what they

vote. Some of pain and -- opinion polls have shown there's a majority

of Catalans who would vote for independence. A recent poll

yesterday said that there were loads of Catalans in fable the

referendum. That is already a starting point. People get excited

about thinking how we can have another future.

Presumably, Alan Smith, that is a parallel you would like to

establish with Catalonia? If you get 53% in a poll favouring

independence and you're getting 25% in the last one. This is energising

for the people of Scotland. I think it is a prerequisite to our debate

that a democracy of 5.5 million people will have a more direct

democracy than having to send people down to Westminster for a

system that I think it... And curious. Would you support

demands for independence in Catalonia?

That is not a matter for me. The people of Scotland are best placed

to make a decision... It is a curious point. Socialists

would say they what socialism. -- they want.

We are used to the difference between what to say about your own

country and what to say about other people's. It is not for me to say

one thing or the other to the people of Catalonia.

He we have to leave it there. Thank you to you both.

Now, it was one of the most notorious incidents witnessed in

Scotland in the 1970s. On 12th October 1972, 40 years ago tomorrow,

the Queen came to Stirling to open the new university. What should

have been a routine royal engagement turned into a worldwide

news event, as Her Majesty was heckled by some students, or

"rowdies", as we called them then - one of them even swigging from a

bottle of wine. It's difficult now to imagine the impact the incident

had, especially on the reputation of the youthful university. Raymond

Buchanan's been speaking to a couple of people who remember it

The Queen was coming along here with a procession.

The Jubilee is not the only royal anniversary this year.

There's a surge of the crowd, everybody brewing. I think they

never were cries of, go home, you German. -- there were cries.

Ken Ferguson was becoming a student when the Queen came calling. Her

Majesty may still remember the occasion. He certainly does.

Stirling was a new-build University. There was a dearth of social space

for students, which was a hot issue among the 2,000 students who were

there. When the Queen was going to visit, the expense and the pomp and

the clearing up and so on caused much resentment.

These were the scenes that made Stirling famous... Or infamous. It

turned what had been a respectable royal visit into a shambles.

Students who had been staging a sit in made -- for an adjoining

building and crowded round the Welsh party. The Queen, smilingly,

People were appalled, partly because there was a lot of hysteria

in the media. There's a famous story about somebody being hung up

by an Australian journalist. The question to the student leader was

what about these people doing this with cheap wine? And the person

said, what do you mean cheap? It was �1 per bottle!

The headlines made very uncomfortable reading for the

university authorities. Stirling was branded a young university with

attitude. I have never been in a university

before that has presented the Queen. But some saw the incident with more

humour than others. So ashamed were some students, they queued up to

sign a petition to say sorry to the monarch. 24 of their colleagues

were disciplined. A sociology student he was on the

front pages of the world's papers is up for drinking for a bottle in

the Queen's presence, which act was discourteous to the Queen and her

party. There were some students who thought that others should be

expelled. The University's procedures were untested because it

was a young university. The whole thing dragged on and that lovely

campers became split. -- campus. Did you shout? No, I did not.

It was a place of intellectual The charges against the alleged

ringleaders were finally dropped. So what was the fuss all about?

think it just symbolised something that made people uneasy. The

contest, the background was of the IRA bombing campaigns. Mass

picketing was beginning. There was a huge trial going on in London of

anarchists. Somehow, people felt that this symbolised a society that

was beginning to break up. Some of the Stirling students will gather

in the city this weekend to Now a quick look at tomorrow's