Browse content similar to 15/10/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
The food companies will be watching Good evening and welcome to a | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
special extended Newsnight Scotland. It is a historic day. The Prime | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
Minister came to visit, the Edinburgh Agreement, as we are told | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
me should call it, was signed, the starting gun on the referendum | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
campaign was fired and half the UK's media descended on the capital. | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
In a moment, I will be be trying to work out what is significant in the | :00:32. | :00:34. | |
Agreement with pro-independence and pro-Union politicians, but first, | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
today was so historic, they actually let me out of the the | :00:37. | :00:47. | |
:00:47. | :00:51. | ||
office. The two signatories warmed- up by sending out messages. They | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
did not deserve to be called subliminal, because they were so | :00:55. | :01:03. | |
obvious. David Cameron was at a naval dockyard in Rockside. Alex | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
Salmond was at the nursery school. Three provision for as many as | :01:08. | :01:14. | |
possible. They say it is the sort of thing the Labour Party will rip | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
to shreds if you do not vote for independence. Back in Edinburgh, | :01:19. | :01:26. | |
there was a growing sense of anticipation. But police trained to | :01:26. | :01:34. | |
link arms and double cordons. It proved about as accurate as the Met | :01:34. | :01:44. | |
Office storm warning that didn't come 25 years ago. More than one | :01:44. | :01:52. | |
million people on the street. It is a big demonstration. We are really | :01:53. | :02:02. | |
interested in this. We are not allowed to talk. We are very angry, | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
because at least we would like to do this referendum and to this | :02:06. | :02:13. | |
consultation to the people, but we are not allowed. We want to know | :02:13. | :02:21. | |
about the issues and how the Scottish people seek independence | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
and the future development of the country feels up and then there was | :02:26. | :02:35. | |
a flurry of activity. Advent, the sign that even some of the most | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
fervent of Scottish nationalists thought they would never see - the | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
Prime Minister again to an independence referendum. But at | :02:46. | :02:53. | |
least, it was not raining. Inside, there was an hour of chit-chat and | :02:53. | :03:03. | |
:03:03. | :03:05. | ||
then the historic Edinburgh Agreement signing. Afterwards, | :03:05. | :03:12. | |
David Cameron declared himself satisfied. No one wants to go | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
against the will of the people. Scotland voted for the Scottish | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
National Party in the last election and therefore, it is quite right | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
that the people here are given the choice. I am and passionate and | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
believe that they will vote to keep the United Kingdom together. I | :03:30. | :03:37. | |
think we are stronger together and savour together. They are in, he | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
was off to London. Alex Salmond's special advisers had told him he | :03:41. | :03:48. | |
should not look smug. A I think we will win by setting out the | :03:48. | :03:57. | |
positive vision for poor countries. It is the future of the | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
compassionate and prosperous Scotland in the future that will | :04:01. | :04:10. | |
carry the day. The what would you say today to all the organisations | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
and individuals who have submitted evidence to you consultation | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
calling for adoption of law devolution and the are now seeing | :04:21. | :04:28. | |
this is just effects. They are saying you are doing a deal on | :04:28. | :04:35. | |
independence and ignoring that evidence. It is quite true we did | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
not achieve the a objective of having more than one question on | :04:40. | :04:50. | |
the ballot paper. In the terms of any negotiation, there has to be an | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
element of compromise on both sides. The very substantial gain Scotland | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
now has is that we have an agreed process for this referendum and | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
respect for the outcome of it. I think that as an agreement worth | :05:06. | :05:14. | |
having. It is a huge and substantial advance. But I can well | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
understand why people may have wished to see a second question on | :05:19. | :05:26. | |
the ballot paper. That was an argument that was not foreclosed on | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
by the Scottish Parliament, but by the Westminster government. My | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
first job was to see that an agreement could be put together so | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
that the independence referendum could be had. That is a massive | :05:41. | :05:48. | |
game. A outside, I asked people why this great event that led to a | :05:48. | :05:56. | |
crowd of almost nobody. It must be to do with the security. There it's | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
always security when the Prime Minister comes to town. If they | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
anyone is interested, they could what to that barrier. There is for | :06:05. | :06:11. | |
people there. I think it is not about people going to the | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
politicians, but the politicians going out into the community and | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
having conversations. But surely you think some of the people would | :06:20. | :06:26. | |
be interested. Surely even a couple of hundred people? He is, I think | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
they are interested. People have genuine questions about the process | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
and how they can take part in it and how it will affect them and | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
their communities. These conversations may be happening. | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
They may not be happening outside here, but they are happening. | :06:44. | :06:51. | |
fairness, there was five people up there, but they went away. I to not | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
think we should expect people to come and see as an immediate | :06:55. | :07:02. | |
standing outside St Andrews House. It is already happening outside | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
inside community halls and everywhere around Scotland. I do | :07:06. | :07:14. | |
not think politicians and the media should expect poll the public to | :07:14. | :07:20. | |
come to them. The crowd did reach 13 at one point. Maybe this has | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
been her story and the making, but it seemed rather peculiar. There is | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
a huge media circus here. It is the sort of coverage you would expect | :07:32. | :07:42. | |
for a small war. Everyone involved said what you expected them to say. | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
But at least the sun is still shining. | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
My colleague Brian Taylor has been I am joined in the studio now by | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
the Scottish Conservatives' leader Ruth Davidson, Labour's Jackie | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
Baille, the local government minister Derek Mackay and the | :07:57. | :07:58. | |
leader of the Scottish Greens, Patrick Harvie. | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
I also have with me Professor John Curtice of Strathclyde University, | :08:01. | :08:08. | |
to inject some sense into proceedings. Derek, I was very | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
struck that he made great play of the last paragraph of this | :08:13. | :08:23. | |
:08:23. | :08:25. | ||
paragraph, Alex Salmond. Why is he sought exercised about this. No one | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
in his government ever suggested they would not respect the outcome. | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
Bath think there was speculation that the British government would | :08:32. | :08:39. | |
make as difficult as possible to attain the referendum and have the | :08:39. | :08:49. | |
:08:49. | :08:49. | ||
decent debate around us. What Alex Salmond is seen is that no matter | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
what the manner of the outcome is, it will be respected. Was there any | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
suggestion a suspicion that the British government would then try | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
to sabotage it? There was not so long ago that the voices were seen | :09:06. | :09:13. | |
the referendum should be controlled by Westminster. This is the | :09:13. | :09:19. | |
historic mandate achieved to date. I think it is significant to say | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
that not only will the United Kingdom Government respect the | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
right to hold the referendum, they will respect the result at work | :09:29. | :09:37. | |
constructively, regardless of the outcome. It is significant. Why did | :09:37. | :09:47. | |
:09:47. | :09:47. | ||
the Conservatives allowed Alex Salmond to turn this this into a | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
state it occasion, as that as if they were signing the treaty of | :09:51. | :10:01. | |
Versailles? If we pick up on what Derek was saying, I will answer | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
your question any second. The Scottish government has to also | :10:05. | :10:13. | |
abide by this. They cannot say a big boy did it and then ran away. | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
Alex Salmond signed this so that he cannot see in two years' time, if | :10:18. | :10:28. | |
:10:28. | :10:33. | ||
he loses, when he loses, got Macro to go back to the game at question | :10:33. | :10:42. | |
that I ask, why did he turn this into some big state occasion? | :10:42. | :10:50. | |
was marked by the signing of an agreement to that effect. The power | :10:50. | :10:57. | |
will now be passed to the Scottish Parliament. If we on where to | :10:57. | :11:04. | |
imagine the utterly implausible, let us just say that Alex Salmond | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
was Mark use of the second question was a ploy to using negotiations, | :11:10. | :11:17. | |
it worked fantastically well. was a fantastic Light if that was | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
the case. He led many people up to the top of the hill and then he | :11:22. | :11:29. | |
abandoned them. It was clear he wanted the second question. He was | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
not certain he could win the independence debate and wanted to | :11:33. | :11:42. | |
muddy the water. I think we have made progress today. I think people | :11:42. | :11:49. | |
can now move away about the process on to the substance of the argument. | :11:49. | :11:56. | |
In your view, do you find it normal or extraordinary that made such a | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
fuss about this consultation for the referendum, that a Scottish | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
government has just done a deal that we still do not know what was | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
in the consultation that was initially sent to government? The | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
bad think it would certainly be better if that had been published | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
before this. I am not speech useless surprise, but I am | :12:23. | :12:33. | |
:12:33. | :12:34. | ||
disappointed. Let us remember, the opportunity to have aged airlock | :12:34. | :12:40. | |
open process, with civic Scotland in the driving seat, was missed. | :12:40. | :12:50. | |
:12:50. | :12:52. | ||
That was it years ago. The both sides are clearly built in their | :12:52. | :13:00. | |
own outcome and it came across as a political stitch-up, which is what | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
this also is. I am not surprised. But here we are now, we are going | :13:05. | :13:15. | |
:13:15. | :13:28. | ||
to have a referendum, which all At least on Nicky marriage question, | :13:28. | :13:38. | |
:13:38. | :13:39. | ||
new waited until it was published before or you announced it -- same- | :13:39. | :13:47. | |
sex marriage. This is about asking the opinions on the referendum, | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
that will then inform the Bill which will make its way through the | :13:51. | :14:01. | |
:14:01. | :14:02. | ||
Scottish Parliament. We should all long have said about the | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
consultation, it is just being used to. The SNP government made it | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
perfectly clear that we were open to a second question and further | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
powers being granted to Scotland people did not choose independence. | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
But it is no surprise that independence for Scotland is our | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
first preference. It is not the Scottish Government but said no to | :14:27. | :14:33. | |
devolution max, it is the British government. You cannot tell me what | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
your own consultation says? I have already told you, I do not have | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
sight of the analysis of the consultation, that is still under | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
way. What we have achieved as a mandate to pick a question to the | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
people of Scotland on independence, and that was our objective. 16 and | :14:53. | :14:59. | |
17-year-olds will be voting. Can you, in a way that we will all | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
understand, explain why it is that it the Scottish government has | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
control over the register of 16 and 17-year-olds who can vote as | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
opposed to Westminster, that means that I think more 16 and 17-year- | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
olds can boat? The agreement that has been signed today does not make | :15:17. | :15:25. | |
it clear how it will be achieved. The UK government has essentially | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
said to the Scottish Government, you can enfranchise them if you | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
want to, but there's nothing explaining how that will be made | :15:33. | :15:43. | |
:15:43. | :15:46. | ||
possible. Given current law, it would be difficult to get anyone on | :15:47. | :15:56. | |
the registration -- on the register he were less than 16 3/4. We will | :15:56. | :16:03. | |
see what the Scottish Government are going to do about this. If they | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
want all 16-year-olds to be enfranchised then they will have to | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
introduce a separate registration process. Then we get into the nitty | :16:12. | :16:22. | |
gritty, which says that the Scottish -- UK government wants to | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
delay. There will be a certain amount of pressure on those | :16:27. | :16:35. | |
responsible for compiling a register, and being asked to engage | :16:35. | :16:44. | |
in another registration process. hope you all got that. That is very | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
helpful. Where there is a well there is a way. We will find a way | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
through this. Both Patrick and I were in a meeting earlier this year | :16:53. | :17:00. | |
with the First Minister Alex Salmond, Johann Lamont, where Bruce | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
Crawford and the first Minister brought officials to tell us that | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
they knew full well that people under the ages of 16 and tenants | :17:09. | :17:19. | |
:17:19. | :17:20. | ||
would not be able to vote in the referendum. -- 16 and ten months. | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
think they recognise there would be problems. I do not think they said | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
it would not happen. Now that it is a done deal, due would accept that | :17:29. | :17:35. | |
this is perfectly reasonable to give 16 and 17-year-olds the port? | :17:35. | :17:45. | |
:17:45. | :17:46. | ||
Absolutely. Why have you changed your mind? We have not, we just | :17:46. | :17:53. | |
want consistency across the board. It is one thing to use it -- to | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
pick 16 and 17-year-olds just for that purpose, but it is much more | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
complex, as we have already heard, to actually deliver. There are | :18:02. | :18:08. | |
serious child protection issues. You cannot publish the name and | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
address of someone under the age of 16, a requirement of their | :18:13. | :18:21. | |
electoral register. You are happy about this, Patrick? Very much so. | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
Just because there are challenges is not a reason not to try. We must | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
accept that there will be detailed questions, but let us give the | :18:28. | :18:35. | |
government time to come up those answers. I am curious, endure | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
analysis, if I am to ask you, on your side of the argument, what you | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
think the weak spots are, the things that they really need to | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
convince people of, what would you think the weak spots are? As far as | :18:48. | :18:54. | |
the Yes side is an -- is concerned, there misfortune is that this is | :18:54. | :19:04. | |
:19:04. | :19:05. | ||
happening after the eurozone crisis. The SNP's policy for a long time | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
would be that Scotland would remain independent within the eurozone. We | :19:10. | :19:20. | |
:19:20. | :19:21. | ||
have realised that it would take -- that a fiscal union with another | :19:21. | :19:27. | |
country is difficult. For the No side, undoubtedly the risk they | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
have taken through the UK government in not allowing a second | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
question to be on the ballot paper is that one third of people are so | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
in Scotland his first preferences for a more powerful Scottish | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
parliament within the framework of the Union may now be wondering, | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
well, what happens if we ought to know? Will the Unionist parties | :19:48. | :19:55. | |
feel they're off the hook and that therefore I have to vote yes, I | :19:55. | :20:05. | |
will there be some agreed plan? -- or will there be. Maybe that will | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
give the opportunity to the Yes side to get more votes than it | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
otherwise would have done. Ruth Davidson, how would you deal with | :20:13. | :20:19. | |
that? It is slightly surreal that we're sitting here and we have just | :20:19. | :20:21. | |
agreed to have a referendum on something that the polls showed | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
that people do not want and we have just agreed to not have a | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
referendum on something that the opinion polls show that people do | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
want. First of all we have to talk about what is the status quo and | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
what are more powers? Where to make clear to people that the powers | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
that people have now in Scotland are not the powers the Scottish | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
Parliament will have in the future and some things will not even been | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
placed at 2016. What I have already said is that I believe in the | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
Scotland Act, I believe in the powers that are coming this way, | :20:55. | :21:01. | |
including a Scottish rate of income tax. But what is he about this act | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
is that is enabling Act. It allows legislation to be passed without | :21:07. | :21:15. | |
going through the UK Parliament. You do not need to vote for | :21:15. | :21:24. | |
independence if you want more devolution because of what? | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
Conservatives have delivered the Scotland Act, which has the biggest | :21:27. | :21:36. | |
tonsure powers which have come to Scotland and the last 300 years -- | :21:36. | :21:46. | |
:21:46. | :21:51. | ||
biggest selection of powers. On the monetary stuff, the SNP are all | :21:51. | :21:57. | |
over the place. There is this view that we will have a monetary union | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
and the Bank of England will be the lender of the last resort. Alex | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
Salmond appeared to decide a few weeks ago that that was not there | :22:05. | :22:12. | |
case at all. That is not the case at all, what most families will be | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
discussing will not necessarily be the eurozone and Scotland's place | :22:15. | :22:23. | |
in it, it will be what has independence mean for individuals, | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
families and the country. That is immensely patron rising to say to | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
the people of Scotland, do not worry you little heads about the | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
eurozone crisis, just worry about the pound in your pocket. People | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
care about their families and their own individual circumstances and | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
they will think about what independence means for them and not | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
just the country. If independence would make your family and your | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
individual circumstances better off, actually a majority are more in | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
favour of independence than against it. The circumstances for | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
individuals and individual households, it does matter. We have | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
not said a word about the question I have asked you. Am quite happy to | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
say that at the moment Scotland has no lever of control over fiscal | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
powers -- I am quite happy. Even after the transfer of powers from | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
the Scotland Act, we will still be very limited and the powers that we | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
have. With independence we would have fiscal autonomy, but within a | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
monetary union, if the people Scotland want to stay within | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
sterling the well and if ever a time is right to join the euro then | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
they will. We do not have the opportunity to make that choice is | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
part of the Union. A lot of people will say, if I cannot have more | :23:39. | :23:47. | |
devilish and then -- if I cannot have more devolution and I will | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
vote for independence. I think it is important we had a single | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
question. People will be saying that we have been sold a pig in a | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
poke. If we vote against independence then nothing will | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
happen. That is where fundamentally disagree with you. Labour was the | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
party of devolution that delivered the Scottish Parliament. I strongly | :24:06. | :24:13. | |
believe that this is an evolving process and we have set up a | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
process to examine what would be required to do a specific things in | :24:18. | :24:25. | |
Scotland. That is to look at not only powers devolved from | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
Westminster that to the Scottish Parliament, but also to local | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
council as well. Are you willing to promise the people of Scotland the | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
right to have a vote on these powers in exactly the same way that | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
the SNP have promised the people of Scotland are right to vote on | :24:40. | :24:46. | |
independence? We may not have the devolution max referendum and 2014, | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
but is your party going to be willing to let people Scotland to | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
choose on this issue if they decide they wish to do so? I think we will | :24:55. | :25:01. | |
have Gen elections, Scottish party elections. There will be an | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
opportunity for people to express their choice about devolution | :25:04. | :25:10. | |
Scotland. I do not think it is necessary, I think there are other | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
opportunities to do so. What we needed to set it quick clearly what | :25:15. | :25:22. | |
we well in advance of a referendum on independence. You would not | :25:22. | :25:29. | |
consider yourself to be a nationalist? No, I do not. Where | :25:29. | :25:37. | |
does your voice get a hearing here? I have came late in -- you have | :25:37. | :25:44. | |
kindly invited me on to express a view. I will express my view and | :25:44. | :25:53. | |
currency. I do not believe that an assertion that we should have a | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
monetary union with the UK is a long-term option. But I think that | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
both sides, yes and No, have a difficulty with adversity. Both | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
sides need to find a way to turn diversity into a strength rather | :26:05. | :26:15. | |
:26:15. | :26:16. | ||
than a weakness. I will not attack their -- the better together | :26:16. | :26:23. | |
campaign on the basis there are different parties involved in it. | :26:23. | :26:33. | |
:26:33. | :26:33. | ||
Let us end on the opinion polls. Obviously the people in favour of | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
independence believe that they can turn them round -- hope that they | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
can turn them round. The Poles have been much the same about | :26:41. | :26:49. | |
independence for 20 years. -- the opinion polls. Can we turn them | :26:49. | :26:59. | |
:26:59. | :27:00. | ||
round dramatically? You can in some referendums. It proved very easy to | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
turn public opinion round in 2011. Because this has been a subject of | :27:05. | :27:13. | |
debate for 40 years, and on travail proportion of the Scottish public | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
have very firm views. -- none of trivial. There is that one third of | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
people in the middle who want more power was a do not necessarily want | :27:22. | :27:29. | |
independence, that opens up the prospect for movement. We will have | :27:29. | :27:36. | |
to leave it there. I quickly cap tomorrow's front pages. Starting | :27:36. | :27:46. | |
:27:46. | :27:48. |