15/10/2012 Newsnight Scotland


15/10/2012

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The food companies will be watching Good evening and welcome to a

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special extended Newsnight Scotland. It is a historic day. The Prime

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Minister came to visit, the Edinburgh Agreement, as we are told

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me should call it, was signed, the starting gun on the referendum

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campaign was fired and half the UK's media descended on the capital.

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In a moment, I will be be trying to work out what is significant in the

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Agreement with pro-independence and pro-Union politicians, but first,

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today was so historic, they actually let me out of the the

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office. The two signatories warmed- up by sending out messages. They

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did not deserve to be called subliminal, because they were so

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obvious. David Cameron was at a naval dockyard in Rockside. Alex

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Salmond was at the nursery school. Three provision for as many as

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possible. They say it is the sort of thing the Labour Party will rip

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to shreds if you do not vote for independence. Back in Edinburgh,

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there was a growing sense of anticipation. But police trained to

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link arms and double cordons. It proved about as accurate as the Met

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Office storm warning that didn't come 25 years ago. More than one

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million people on the street. It is a big demonstration. We are really

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interested in this. We are not allowed to talk. We are very angry,

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because at least we would like to do this referendum and to this

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consultation to the people, but we are not allowed. We want to know

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about the issues and how the Scottish people seek independence

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and the future development of the country feels up and then there was

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a flurry of activity. Advent, the sign that even some of the most

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fervent of Scottish nationalists thought they would never see - the

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Prime Minister again to an independence referendum. But at

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least, it was not raining. Inside, there was an hour of chit-chat and

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then the historic Edinburgh Agreement signing. Afterwards,

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David Cameron declared himself satisfied. No one wants to go

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against the will of the people. Scotland voted for the Scottish

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National Party in the last election and therefore, it is quite right

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that the people here are given the choice. I am and passionate and

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believe that they will vote to keep the United Kingdom together. I

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think we are stronger together and savour together. They are in, he

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was off to London. Alex Salmond's special advisers had told him he

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should not look smug. A I think we will win by setting out the

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positive vision for poor countries. It is the future of the

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compassionate and prosperous Scotland in the future that will

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carry the day. The what would you say today to all the organisations

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and individuals who have submitted evidence to you consultation

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calling for adoption of law devolution and the are now seeing

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this is just effects. They are saying you are doing a deal on

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independence and ignoring that evidence. It is quite true we did

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not achieve the a objective of having more than one question on

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the ballot paper. In the terms of any negotiation, there has to be an

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element of compromise on both sides. The very substantial gain Scotland

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now has is that we have an agreed process for this referendum and

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respect for the outcome of it. I think that as an agreement worth

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having. It is a huge and substantial advance. But I can well

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understand why people may have wished to see a second question on

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the ballot paper. That was an argument that was not foreclosed on

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by the Scottish Parliament, but by the Westminster government. My

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first job was to see that an agreement could be put together so

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that the independence referendum could be had. That is a massive

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game. A outside, I asked people why this great event that led to a

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crowd of almost nobody. It must be to do with the security. There it's

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always security when the Prime Minister comes to town. If they

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anyone is interested, they could what to that barrier. There is for

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people there. I think it is not about people going to the

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politicians, but the politicians going out into the community and

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having conversations. But surely you think some of the people would

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be interested. Surely even a couple of hundred people? He is, I think

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they are interested. People have genuine questions about the process

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and how they can take part in it and how it will affect them and

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their communities. These conversations may be happening.

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They may not be happening outside here, but they are happening.

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fairness, there was five people up there, but they went away. I to not

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think we should expect people to come and see as an immediate

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standing outside St Andrews House. It is already happening outside

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inside community halls and everywhere around Scotland. I do

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not think politicians and the media should expect poll the public to

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come to them. The crowd did reach 13 at one point. Maybe this has

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been her story and the making, but it seemed rather peculiar. There is

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a huge media circus here. It is the sort of coverage you would expect

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for a small war. Everyone involved said what you expected them to say.

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But at least the sun is still shining.

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My colleague Brian Taylor has been I am joined in the studio now by

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the Scottish Conservatives' leader Ruth Davidson, Labour's Jackie

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Baille, the local government minister Derek Mackay and the

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leader of the Scottish Greens, Patrick Harvie.

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I also have with me Professor John Curtice of Strathclyde University,

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to inject some sense into proceedings. Derek, I was very

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struck that he made great play of the last paragraph of this

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paragraph, Alex Salmond. Why is he sought exercised about this. No one

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in his government ever suggested they would not respect the outcome.

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Bath think there was speculation that the British government would

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make as difficult as possible to attain the referendum and have the

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decent debate around us. What Alex Salmond is seen is that no matter

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what the manner of the outcome is, it will be respected. Was there any

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suggestion a suspicion that the British government would then try

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to sabotage it? There was not so long ago that the voices were seen

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the referendum should be controlled by Westminster. This is the

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historic mandate achieved to date. I think it is significant to say

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that not only will the United Kingdom Government respect the

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right to hold the referendum, they will respect the result at work

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constructively, regardless of the outcome. It is significant. Why did

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the Conservatives allowed Alex Salmond to turn this this into a

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state it occasion, as that as if they were signing the treaty of

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Versailles? If we pick up on what Derek was saying, I will answer

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your question any second. The Scottish government has to also

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abide by this. They cannot say a big boy did it and then ran away.

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Alex Salmond signed this so that he cannot see in two years' time, if

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he loses, when he loses, got Macro to go back to the game at question

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that I ask, why did he turn this into some big state occasion?

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was marked by the signing of an agreement to that effect. The power

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will now be passed to the Scottish Parliament. If we on where to

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imagine the utterly implausible, let us just say that Alex Salmond

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was Mark use of the second question was a ploy to using negotiations,

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it worked fantastically well. was a fantastic Light if that was

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the case. He led many people up to the top of the hill and then he

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abandoned them. It was clear he wanted the second question. He was

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not certain he could win the independence debate and wanted to

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muddy the water. I think we have made progress today. I think people

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can now move away about the process on to the substance of the argument.

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In your view, do you find it normal or extraordinary that made such a

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fuss about this consultation for the referendum, that a Scottish

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government has just done a deal that we still do not know what was

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in the consultation that was initially sent to government? The

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bad think it would certainly be better if that had been published

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before this. I am not speech useless surprise, but I am

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:12:33.:12:34.

disappointed. Let us remember, the opportunity to have aged airlock

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open process, with civic Scotland in the driving seat, was missed.

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:12:50.:12:52.

That was it years ago. The both sides are clearly built in their

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own outcome and it came across as a political stitch-up, which is what

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this also is. I am not surprised. But here we are now, we are going

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to have a referendum, which all At least on Nicky marriage question,

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new waited until it was published before or you announced it -- same-

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sex marriage. This is about asking the opinions on the referendum,

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that will then inform the Bill which will make its way through the

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Scottish Parliament. We should all long have said about the

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consultation, it is just being used to. The SNP government made it

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perfectly clear that we were open to a second question and further

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powers being granted to Scotland people did not choose independence.

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But it is no surprise that independence for Scotland is our

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first preference. It is not the Scottish Government but said no to

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devolution max, it is the British government. You cannot tell me what

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your own consultation says? I have already told you, I do not have

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sight of the analysis of the consultation, that is still under

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way. What we have achieved as a mandate to pick a question to the

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people of Scotland on independence, and that was our objective. 16 and

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17-year-olds will be voting. Can you, in a way that we will all

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understand, explain why it is that it the Scottish government has

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control over the register of 16 and 17-year-olds who can vote as

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opposed to Westminster, that means that I think more 16 and 17-year-

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olds can boat? The agreement that has been signed today does not make

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it clear how it will be achieved. The UK government has essentially

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said to the Scottish Government, you can enfranchise them if you

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want to, but there's nothing explaining how that will be made

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possible. Given current law, it would be difficult to get anyone on

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the registration -- on the register he were less than 16 3/4. We will

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see what the Scottish Government are going to do about this. If they

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want all 16-year-olds to be enfranchised then they will have to

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introduce a separate registration process. Then we get into the nitty

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gritty, which says that the Scottish -- UK government wants to

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delay. There will be a certain amount of pressure on those

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responsible for compiling a register, and being asked to engage

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in another registration process. hope you all got that. That is very

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helpful. Where there is a well there is a way. We will find a way

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through this. Both Patrick and I were in a meeting earlier this year

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with the First Minister Alex Salmond, Johann Lamont, where Bruce

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Crawford and the first Minister brought officials to tell us that

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they knew full well that people under the ages of 16 and tenants

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would not be able to vote in the referendum. -- 16 and ten months.

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think they recognise there would be problems. I do not think they said

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it would not happen. Now that it is a done deal, due would accept that

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this is perfectly reasonable to give 16 and 17-year-olds the port?

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Absolutely. Why have you changed your mind? We have not, we just

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want consistency across the board. It is one thing to use it -- to

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pick 16 and 17-year-olds just for that purpose, but it is much more

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complex, as we have already heard, to actually deliver. There are

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serious child protection issues. You cannot publish the name and

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address of someone under the age of 16, a requirement of their

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electoral register. You are happy about this, Patrick? Very much so.

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Just because there are challenges is not a reason not to try. We must

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accept that there will be detailed questions, but let us give the

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government time to come up those answers. I am curious, endure

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analysis, if I am to ask you, on your side of the argument, what you

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think the weak spots are, the things that they really need to

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convince people of, what would you think the weak spots are? As far as

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the Yes side is an -- is concerned, there misfortune is that this is

:18:54.:19:04.
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happening after the eurozone crisis. The SNP's policy for a long time

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would be that Scotland would remain independent within the eurozone. We

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have realised that it would take -- that a fiscal union with another

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country is difficult. For the No side, undoubtedly the risk they

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have taken through the UK government in not allowing a second

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question to be on the ballot paper is that one third of people are so

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in Scotland his first preferences for a more powerful Scottish

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parliament within the framework of the Union may now be wondering,

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well, what happens if we ought to know? Will the Unionist parties

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feel they're off the hook and that therefore I have to vote yes, I

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will there be some agreed plan? -- or will there be. Maybe that will

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give the opportunity to the Yes side to get more votes than it

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otherwise would have done. Ruth Davidson, how would you deal with

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that? It is slightly surreal that we're sitting here and we have just

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agreed to have a referendum on something that the polls showed

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that people do not want and we have just agreed to not have a

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referendum on something that the opinion polls show that people do

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want. First of all we have to talk about what is the status quo and

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what are more powers? Where to make clear to people that the powers

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that people have now in Scotland are not the powers the Scottish

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Parliament will have in the future and some things will not even been

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placed at 2016. What I have already said is that I believe in the

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Scotland Act, I believe in the powers that are coming this way,

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including a Scottish rate of income tax. But what is he about this act

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is that is enabling Act. It allows legislation to be passed without

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going through the UK Parliament. You do not need to vote for

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independence if you want more devolution because of what?

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Conservatives have delivered the Scotland Act, which has the biggest

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tonsure powers which have come to Scotland and the last 300 years --

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:21:46.:21:51.

biggest selection of powers. On the monetary stuff, the SNP are all

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over the place. There is this view that we will have a monetary union

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and the Bank of England will be the lender of the last resort. Alex

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Salmond appeared to decide a few weeks ago that that was not there

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case at all. That is not the case at all, what most families will be

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discussing will not necessarily be the eurozone and Scotland's place

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in it, it will be what has independence mean for individuals,

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families and the country. That is immensely patron rising to say to

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the people of Scotland, do not worry you little heads about the

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eurozone crisis, just worry about the pound in your pocket. People

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care about their families and their own individual circumstances and

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they will think about what independence means for them and not

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just the country. If independence would make your family and your

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individual circumstances better off, actually a majority are more in

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favour of independence than against it. The circumstances for

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individuals and individual households, it does matter. We have

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not said a word about the question I have asked you. Am quite happy to

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say that at the moment Scotland has no lever of control over fiscal

:23:08.:23:13.

powers -- I am quite happy. Even after the transfer of powers from

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the Scotland Act, we will still be very limited and the powers that we

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have. With independence we would have fiscal autonomy, but within a

:23:22.:23:25.

monetary union, if the people Scotland want to stay within

:23:25.:23:30.

sterling the well and if ever a time is right to join the euro then

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they will. We do not have the opportunity to make that choice is

:23:34.:23:39.

part of the Union. A lot of people will say, if I cannot have more

:23:39.:23:47.

devilish and then -- if I cannot have more devolution and I will

:23:47.:23:50.

vote for independence. I think it is important we had a single

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question. People will be saying that we have been sold a pig in a

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poke. If we vote against independence then nothing will

:23:57.:24:02.

happen. That is where fundamentally disagree with you. Labour was the

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party of devolution that delivered the Scottish Parliament. I strongly

:24:06.:24:13.

believe that this is an evolving process and we have set up a

:24:13.:24:18.

process to examine what would be required to do a specific things in

:24:18.:24:25.

Scotland. That is to look at not only powers devolved from

:24:25.:24:29.

Westminster that to the Scottish Parliament, but also to local

:24:29.:24:34.

council as well. Are you willing to promise the people of Scotland the

:24:34.:24:37.

right to have a vote on these powers in exactly the same way that

:24:37.:24:40.

the SNP have promised the people of Scotland are right to vote on

:24:40.:24:46.

independence? We may not have the devolution max referendum and 2014,

:24:46.:24:50.

but is your party going to be willing to let people Scotland to

:24:50.:24:55.

choose on this issue if they decide they wish to do so? I think we will

:24:55.:25:01.

have Gen elections, Scottish party elections. There will be an

:25:01.:25:04.

opportunity for people to express their choice about devolution

:25:04.:25:10.

Scotland. I do not think it is necessary, I think there are other

:25:10.:25:15.

opportunities to do so. What we needed to set it quick clearly what

:25:15.:25:22.

we well in advance of a referendum on independence. You would not

:25:22.:25:29.

consider yourself to be a nationalist? No, I do not. Where

:25:29.:25:37.

does your voice get a hearing here? I have came late in -- you have

:25:37.:25:44.

kindly invited me on to express a view. I will express my view and

:25:44.:25:53.

currency. I do not believe that an assertion that we should have a

:25:53.:25:57.

monetary union with the UK is a long-term option. But I think that

:25:57.:26:02.

both sides, yes and No, have a difficulty with adversity. Both

:26:02.:26:05.

sides need to find a way to turn diversity into a strength rather

:26:05.:26:15.
:26:15.:26:16.

than a weakness. I will not attack their -- the better together

:26:16.:26:23.

campaign on the basis there are different parties involved in it.

:26:23.:26:33.
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Let us end on the opinion polls. Obviously the people in favour of

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independence believe that they can turn them round -- hope that they

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can turn them round. The Poles have been much the same about

:26:41.:26:49.

independence for 20 years. -- the opinion polls. Can we turn them

:26:49.:26:59.
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round dramatically? You can in some referendums. It proved very easy to

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turn public opinion round in 2011. Because this has been a subject of

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debate for 40 years, and on travail proportion of the Scottish public

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have very firm views. -- none of trivial. There is that one third of

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people in the middle who want more power was a do not necessarily want

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independence, that opens up the prospect for movement. We will have

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to leave it there. I quickly cap tomorrow's front pages. Starting

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