16/10/2012 Newsnight Scotland


16/10/2012

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their help when we need them. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland:

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Almost 2,000 workers look set to lose their jobs at the Halls

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factory in West Lothian. But need it have happened? Was

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there really a viable offer to take over the plant and keep it running?

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Also tonight, in the very latest in the row over universal benefits the

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commentariat have taken to fighting among themselves. We'll watch.

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The loss of almost 2,000 jobs at Broxburn will give West Lothian an

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unemployment rate worse than the national average, in spite of being

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part of the travel-to-work area for Edinburgh. But need the closure

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have happened? A financial company which wanted to buy the business

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says it was not given a proper chance, as Jamie McIvor reports.

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For three months, the access hung over the Halls plant in Broxburn.

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It was warned it faced closure and start from politicians were stunned.

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I want help to keep the plant open. Nobody wants to see this place shut.

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The closure will be just before Christmas, so what would that do?

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Not much you can do. It is a great area and loads of people like

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myself have been here since they left school. 20-odd years. But the

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company's argument seems clear. have invested in people, resources

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and done everything we possibly could to make this a viable concern.

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We are currently losing �79,000 a day in the plant and it is no

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longer sustainable. The seemingly inevitable task force was set up by

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the Government and public agencies. Their aim, not only to help the

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staff, but to try to save the operation. I am encouraged that a

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number of points coming out have been able to deliver a better

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future for workforce of Halls of Broxburn. So it is in that analysis

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that Mr that interest lies and we will concentrate at efforts to

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ensure we deliver a better future for this plant. -- that most of our

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interest lies. I am very disappointed. Even with time when

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they are last week, there was still talk a buyer could be found for the

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site. Is there a credible buyer? If so, we will do everything to

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facilitate that. If not, we will have to let the workforce know what

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is happening. But it came to nothing. It looks like the plant

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will be gone within months. Today, one company said it had put

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together a seven-figure bids to buy the site and say three-quarters of

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the jobs. That was Graf Capital. It in -- it claims they never had any

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a view to saving the site. They would rather put 700 people on the

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dole queue than save their jobs? It doesn't make sense and it isn't

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fair. A large percentage of those jobs will be transferred to one of

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the factories elsewhere in the country and that is wholly unfair.

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They deny the claim and said the company were not credible bidders

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but it now seems certain 1,700 jobs will go. There may well be some

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small parts of the business that toss sold on later on but these

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will be small and it will not affect most of the employees at all.

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The implications of the closure may go well beyond the local economy.

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That is because the plant is the biggest pig processing plant in

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Scotland. Without it, there could be serious problems for many

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Scottish pig farmers. The latest abattoir capacity in Scotland means

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that there is less value to it. And there could be a change in the

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industry which leads to a more efficient supply chain.

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I'm joined now from Edinburgh by Fiona Hyslop MSP, who's been

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involved with the Halls of Broxburn task force, and who's here in her

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capacity as the local MSP. What do you make of these claims by this

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man from Graf Capital that they wanted to take over the plant and

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keep it going and yet they were not given a proper chance? I think

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there was a business to be have there. It is a good workforce and

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indeed the product itself had a good reception from the retailers

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and supermarkets. There was a business to be had by that and we

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know that from the taskforce. But I do think questions have to be asked.

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I am not convinced that the owner really wanted to sell. There were

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two bids on the table and I think they should have engaged more

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readily. My understanding from talking to the bidders is that the

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relationship or indeed engagement was very difficult indeed. And if

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the owner really wanted to sell this as a going concern they would

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have been far more proactive at an earlier stage. So why think they

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were thinking about things on a far more European level or a wider

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company-wide perspective and not for the 1,700 people in West

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Lothian. So you have some sympathy with Steve Green? I know there was

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a business to be had and I know the workforce were capable of

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improvements in the company and we saw that. We saw the Scottish

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manufacturing advisory service and their savings. The workforce knew

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what needed to be done to improve the factory so that was something

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that could and should have been done. I think the fact that the

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owners walked away without engaging says more about them as a company.

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If you are right, what would their motive be for not wanting to sell?

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Do you think they didn't want a competitor? Quite clearly, they

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want to make sure they can protect their own interests. They would not

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want see a competitor, and I think particularly the fact they wanting

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to close the abattoir down first, I think it is clear but they wanted

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to transfer the business down to Malton in England. You what on this

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task force that was trying to intervene in this. If you really

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believe that the owners were not at -- negotiating in good faith with

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these bidders, or is it not possible for you to intervene in

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some way in that process? -- was it not possible? The owners of the

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factory would have to make any decision. The task was, by the way,

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is still meeting and now we will be about recovery to Hearts support

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staff of 1,700 and stand by them. - - to help support. But we had it in

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good phrase to try to encourage them as far as possible to engage

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with the bidders. -- in good faith. But you are having to deal with the

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company who hold the cards at the end of the day, and unfortunately

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they have taken that decision. you just explain for those of us

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were not familiar with how this works why it was necessary to sell

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the business? The Scottish Government had offered to buy the

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plant and lease it back to offer money for capital investment. Why

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would it not have been possible for one of the two bidders to simply by

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the plant and set a big company to produce meat products from it? --

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buy the plant? The problem was the owners were not willing... So not

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even to the Scottish Government? have not had any movement from them

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in any shape or form. A very creative offer came from the

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Scottish Government. We put together a package but they walked

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away from it and they have walked away from two bids. But I didn't

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understand. So the Scottish Government was offering to buy the

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plant and they would not sell it to the government? The offer from the

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Scottish Government was to do a leaseback and other arrangements

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over a long-term period to get the security for that plant because it

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was so important to the workforce, the economy, and we stood by that

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but unfortunately they said no to that and have said no de two

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bidders. I do not know the details of the big we have always said any

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credible bidder had to be engaged with by the company but they have

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not engaged. I think my concern and I think many of the workforce's

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thinking is, did they ever want to engage in the workplace? We have

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put a lot of effort into engaging and now we have to put effort into

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the recovery of the workforce and the wider West Lothian economy.

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Now, three weeks ago tonight, the Labour leader Johann Lamont came on

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this programme and expanded on her new, big idea. She said we have to

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examine universal benefits like the council-tax freeze and free

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pensioner bus passes. She wanted to start a debate but her political

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opponents, the SNP, did what you'd expect political opponents to do.

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They called her a Tory. But what about the response of Scotland's

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chattering classes? Scotland cannot be the only something for nothing

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country in the world and I'd do not want the biggest tax breaks for the

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rich. As big ideas go, some would say it is quite small. On a par

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with setting up a welfare state or putting a man on the mood by the --

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on the moon by the end of the decade. He it is staggering that

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public sector expenditure makes up a full 50% of Scotland's GDP and

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only 12% of households are net contributors. Now, one member of

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the commentary at has taken both women to task for the use of

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language but he also has guns trained on his fellow doctors and

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columnists. Gerry, no stranger to this programme, points to the fact

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of debates being closed down before they started. What will they be

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offering the Scottish people come the next Scottish parliamentary

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election? Increasing council tax, taking away prescription charges

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and students having to pay �9,000 to go to university. He challenges

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There will never be a debate if there was always abuse started as

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soon as something is proposed. Well, here he is. I'm joined now by

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blogger Gerry Hassan, and in Edinburgh by the critic and

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commentator Joyce McMillan. You are accusing Joyce, amongst

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others, all of being a Conservative. For a start we will not play it as

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the person rather than the ball. What I am talking about is a

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consensus or a group thing all eight general feeling because there

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are exceptions to this. Scottish politics and culture are defined by

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what happened under Thatcherism and Tony Blair. Being simplistic, we're

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using those as ways of not thinking about the substances of the things

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that people care about. We are not talking about social justice or

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inequalities in Scotland, I am assuming that the debate that you

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were alluding to is that we are a more egalitarian society then

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England all all of the rest. That is not getting to the substance.

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Iain McWhirter's comments about tuition fees, nobody is proposing

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that in Scotland at the moment and he is using that to close down the

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debate that we have. What it Johanne Lamont is saying, would you

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agree with it or not, she is at least raising a genuine question.

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These questions are not being allowed to be raised because people

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like Iain MacWhirter and Joyce are writing articles saying it is

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appalling Thatcherism. Yes, it is more complicated than that. Those

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comments come from a culture that is referenced through our

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experience of Thatcherism and New Labour as an extension of that. It

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is an argument that we need to stop using those as ways of not thinking

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about situations. He does have a point, doesn't he? You suggested

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that Johann Lamont had joined the oppressive course of boss class

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miserable as them. That is not encouraging open debate. Well, I

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don't think what Johann Lamont said was really encouraging open debate.

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It is a poor do when the only... Jury is saying that we should have

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a more radical and open-minded debate about things but the truth

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is that that particular speech is not a good peg on which to hang the

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argument because all Johann Lamont was doing was buying into the kind

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of austerity mantra that all the least imaginative political parties

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in Europe currently... One of these objections is that this debate of

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the precision of public services and the reform of public services

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is a debate that is not being had under Scotland -- in Scotland under

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the current government or under the previous government, in the days

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when the economy was booming. It is not connected. It is not just about

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austerity but about how you get best value for the money you are

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paying for these things. understand that and I think Johann

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Lamont could have opened up the debate about universalism in

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Scotland and about specific benefits we have and about whether

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we can sustain them and whether we should sustain them and all the

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rest of that. She could easily have done that without using the phrases

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she used and without so clearly aligned the Labour Party in

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Scotland with those political parties across the whole of Europe.

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It is not just a British you -- it is not just the British BT should.

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The idea is that the of current crisis can be solved by inflicting

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austerity on certain classes and it is not right for Johann Lamont to

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join that Euros. Use said that the phrase about gaiety and courage of

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Alex Salmond was wish-fulfilment and you said it was testament to

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the desperation of some in these troubled times. I would agree with

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that. That is not very moderate, is it? It is also about parties like

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SNP and Labour being a bit tent who are in hock to corporate claptrap

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will have a social democracy. The issue that Joyce and I agree on and

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what matters is, what does Scotland stand for? It does not stand for

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being good at football. We think it is a socially justice -- a socially

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just Scotland. It we were independent we would be the 5th

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most summing country in the developed world. I am slightly

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curious. In one article you wrote this thing about the gaiety and

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carriage of Alex Salmond and how he was standing up for a positive

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vision of the future against neo- liberalism. A couple of months

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later in another article you appeared to suggest he had lost the

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argument and you said, and I quote, it is unlikely the SNP has the

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well-marshalled battery and ideological argument that would be

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necessary to fight its way out again and you suggest that Johann

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Lamont had won even though she was not meaning to. I must say I went

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into shock shortly after Johann Lamont's speech because of the

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level of support she seemed to enjoy from Conservative Scotland.

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That was a mistake on my part and I had forgotten how many people there

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were of a conservative and cautious mind in Scotland before the Tories

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moved so far right that they stopped voting for them. Johann

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Lamont in that speech could herself just to the right of the SNP and at

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the head of that body. There was a lot of Scottish opinion that

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thought that would be right and they could not afford all these

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nice things. I dispute that we cannot afford all these things.

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Alex Salmond is a very complex political figure. Gerry says the

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SNP is a big tent. The SNP have been courageous and right in

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defending some social democratic values which are not really any

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more expensive than at the supposedly more economic things

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that have been put to us other parties and at the same time he

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does tend to compromise too much with certain bigger corporate

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interests and all of the rest of it. He is a very complicated figure.

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The fact is I was shocked last week with the renovations at --

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revelations about his attempts to get help from Donald Trump and not

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enough was made of that story in the Scottish media and many more of

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those stories come at it will be very difficult to portray Alex

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Salmond as the kind of social democratic leader there has, needs.

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All right. Jerry, you are accusing joys of being conservative and she

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is accusing you of being conservative. There are a plethora

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of Conservatives at the moment. You trumpeted by same one of your

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article that there was a new branch of Tartan Tories and she was one of

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them. What I said was that the term Tartan Tory is being end insults in

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Scotland and by that logic those people would be Tartan Tories. In

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Scotland we invent pantomime villains and what the joys is

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missing is that we have to have choices and we are missing that in

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