31/10/2012 Newsnight Scotland

that is localism. Feng keen. -- Tonight on Newsnight Scotland:

A letter from America. The mighty Washington Post weighs into the

independence debate and concludes it'd be a bad thing...for the

United States. And derelict, depressed and down-

at-heel? What's the point of our Good evening.

Right in the middle of the biggest storm in America history, one of

the country's best known newspapers stepped into the biggest storm in

Scottish political history. The Washington Post, famous for

Woodward, Bernstein and Bradlee, brought down President Nixon and

gave the word Watergate to the world's media. And now it's having

a go at Scotland's constitutional And the Washington Post yesterday

weighed into the debate on independence under the heading,

Scottish independence is part of a worrying trend. Although the

article is an editorial, it falls short of their fabled standards of

objective reporting. It no stately says the SNP's policy is to leave

NATO. It argues that Scottish independence would weaken the UK

and therefore be bad for the USA and the world. There's a worrying

trend, it says, towards fragmentation in Europe, mentioning

Catalonia, Flanders and Venice. European state let's, they say,

would be like small US states, they would command disproportionate

influence. This is an opinion piece, but given the seniority of the

Washington Post's editorial board, we can assume a America's foreign

affairs and defence strategists are keeping an eye on Scottish politics

more closely than in the past. When that news journalists were covering

the signing of the referenda in agreement, the end of Thet -- they

ended their factual coverage by quoting third subject -- satirical

To discuss that, I'm joined by Jeffrey Kofman, who's the London

correspondent of the ABC network. And in our Washington DC studio is

Jennifer Erickson, a former special adviser to Alex Salmond.

Does this editorial strike you as what Washington would rather think

about this issue? It does. Let's be clear, it has not a topic that gets

a lot of attention in the United States. The logic of it and while

there may be a couple of errors that you've noted, the broad

strokes of that editorial make complete sense for American foreign

policy. On one hand, in principle American follow-up -- foreign

policy believes people have a right to self-determination, but in

practice the UK, as an entity, is the most important ally the US has.

The special relationship that dates back to the Second World War and

before, the power of the UK military, the reliability, the

trust, all of that... The UK is key to American and Western foreign

policy in a way that no other country, no other relationship can

be compared. It is very basic for US foreign policy that a strong and

unified United Kingdom is what works and American interests and

that is what that a tutorial -- editorial says to me. You perhaps

have different views, Jennifer, above all what the policy of the US

ought to be. Do you agree with Geoffrey that as a matter of fact,

that is likely to be the attitude of official Washington? I don't.

You started at the top of the peace talking about how there were

factual errors, it is riddled with factual errors. It is a very

curious piece, it's surprising, and I don't expect it to carry much

weight. Which other factual errors did you spot? You started off with

the point at about the SNP's position on NATO. Other errors

about a oil revenues, a lot of casting about of fears. It reads in

many ways like it was written by the no campaign, which is

interesting. What is important here it is the special relationship.

There's a strong relationship between the United States and

Scotland, between the United States and the rest of the UK. It is

important to go back to first principles. These ideas of self

determination, of independence itself, have huge resonance in the

USA. I think what we are going to seek his Americans watching with

increasing interest and respecting that this is a decision for the

Scottish people to make. They might respect, I don't think the

Washington Post or anyone else in America is suggesting that Scotland

doesn't have the right to make this decision. The US government has

strategic interests and one of its biggest strategic issues in Europe

is a unified United Kingdom, its biggest ally in this Continent.

think the strategic interests of the United States is having strong

alliances and it has strong alliances through NATO. There was a

legitimate question in some people's mind before the NATO

policy, but if we look now, the decision for the United States,

although it is the people of Scotland's decision, but as we

watch the issue is after the 2014 referendum, do we have one ally,

the UK, or an additional ally in the form of Scott Laird? The United

States has seen independence movements around the world, at the

end of World War II there were 51 countries that were independent

members of the United Nations, now there are over 200. The notion that

the USA can't have strategic interests with countries have

different sizes I don't accept. one of the things I found

interesting was the stress they put on the European Union. It is

something that perhaps is not fully understood in Britain, not just in

Scotland, but in Britain, how the USA has always seemed the European

Union as very important in terms of cementing France and Germany

together and strategically very important. Whether or not the

Washington Post is right to argue that an independence Gordon would

weaken the European Union, I found it interesting that this issue of

the diplomatic and military power of the EU is so important. You have

to look at what happened in Libya a year ago. How the UK was so

instrumental in leading that air campaign against Colonel Gaddafi.

The US recognises that ever since George Bush's debacles in Iraq and

Afghanistan that it can't go on its own. It needs to get the world,

some form of consensus. That consensus begins with its most

reliable friends. It is perfectly reasonable for the people of

Scotland to make the decision, and I certainly have no issue with that

and I suspect American foreign policy would agree with that, but

if you are asking what is in the interests of America, I think the

Washington Post article, even if there are some that factual errors,

and if there ralph they should be corrected, that the broad strokes

of this is indisputable that America wants a coherent, powerful,

unified Allied that it can trust in any circumstance.

While America has good relations with France, Germany, Canada, the

alive that matters most in international relationships is the

United Kingdom. A diminished UK, a diminished UK military, a

diminished UK economy, all of those things, if you're asking what the

Washington Post is asking, which is what is in America's interest, one

of those things are in America's interest. Able organised UK, which

is what they will see it as, is not Take that example of Libya, Nicolas

Sarkozy talked to a -- tour to Obama, if there was an independent

Scotland if there had been Norway or Denmark or Icelander who had

been pushing that that that could really get the American President

to go along with the military option? That question is to

Jennifer Erickson. I understand your point, but I do not understand

the premise that the United Kingdom would be a diminished country, I do

not understand this fear that the UK would have difficulty in its own

relationships if the Scottish people decided to vote for

independence in 2014. The rest of the United Kingdom would still be

an incredibly important part of the United States' allies. I do not

understand this premise that there is a diminished rest of the United

Kingdom based on what the Scottish people decide. Sorry, Jeffrey, I

had to cut you off there. We will have to leave it there. I am able

to assure you the issue will not go away! What are our town centres

for? Across Scotland, once attracted a high streets have

become derelict, dilapidated and down-at-heel. Retailers have fled

to the internet so what do we do with the husks of the Victorian

town centres they abandoned? Today is the Scottish Government cut the

rate discount on empty shops. Hoping that if the owners are

forced to pay more, they might double their efforts to find a

tenant. Our reporter has been to Alloa.

Internet shopping, the recession, the demise of our traditional high-

street goes on. Today, a bill was passed by the Scottish Parliament

which would reduce the discount on business rates on empty properties.

The Government hopes it will invigorate the high street.

Scottish Government cannot maintain a position where we are subsidising

people to keep properties closed at a time when we need to be

regenerating communities and tackling this blight on our high

street. But its controversial. CBI Scotland are claiming it will

increase costs to businesses by �18 million per year. This company in

Dundee let out of the space but at the moment it is at low occupancy.

This bill will hit them where it hurts most, in the pocket. It costs

about �160,000 per year just to open the centre with current

occupancy levels. We are currently run at a loss of �12,000 per year.

If you add 30 grand on to that, it is quite a worry. A couple of weeks

ago, there was a report about said since the start of 2012, more than

250 shops had brought the shutters down, an average of one per day.

The whole point of this bill is to get landlords to let out unoccupied

properties and breathe life into the high street. Is the idea of a

main street full of shops just updated? The certainly a future for

the high street in Scotland. It is part and parcel of Scotland, it

makes Scotland the place it is. It should people and people shake it.

It is so important that we allow local people to take control of

their town so they can shake it. And not how the market might

dictate -- shape it. So what can be done? The first thing but you see

in most high streets is vacant properties either on the ground

level or mostly up above shops. A lot of the residential high streets

were ripped out so that shops could have storage space above them. They

do not need that any more because of the weight distribution

logistics are managed. We have to ask ourselves, do we want to bring

people back in so they can live above shops and create a high

street which will be used in the evening as well as doing the day?

Town centres must change. No longer can they rely solely on shops to

bring people in. It is about adding value. Raj was approached by

business owners in Alloa to open a restaurant as a way of bringing in

people at a time of day which is unusual. They introduce us to new

properties here and something we would not have looked at but they

explained the benefits of opening here in different locations so we

finally chose this one here. What is a Business Improvement District?

It is a mechanism whereby all the businesses within a geographical

defined area, in other words the town centre of Alloa, come together

and contribute an additional levy. It has the lowest a vacancy rate in

Scotland here in Alloa, something to do with its Business Improvement

District area. We started off with shopfront grants and the number of

the shops have reduced that money to increase signage. It makes Alloa

town centre look better. Watch feedback have you been getting?

customers in the streets think it has massively improved over the

past five years. There are many areas for Business

Improvement Districts but none are the same as each other. In Alloa,

it is achieved by its martyr, clean the streets, but the shops and

events. A -- it is brought in by it better shops, cleaner streets.

have got events like a centre trained for Christmas, an ice rink

and on Monday night a firework display for Guy Fawkes night. All

these events bring people into the town and when they are in there

enjoying these events, they can spend some money in the local shops.

Alloa at least seems to be thriving but will this bill be the death

rattle of the high street or an opportunity to we imagine our

public spaces? -- to we imagined. We are joined by a Kevin Murray,

chairman of the Academy of Urbanism from our Aberdeen Studios. What is

the Academy of Urbanism? It is an organisation of about 500

practitioners or more in towns and cities across Britain and Ireland

and increasingly in Europe. We study and learn good practice from

those different streets, neighbourhoods, places and cities.

Did what you saw there in Alloa that is going on the right track?

think the Alloa experience and Business Improvement Districts are

good. Care must be taken that they do not squeeze out lower-cost

specialist retailers and so on but they are trained to be

comprehensive and adding value. And the street cleaning, the shop

frontages are very important. you think we must think again in a

fundamental way what town centres are all about? Yes, that is correct

and I would say that it is more than just retail. The danger is if

we just think town centres are about shops and shopping, and we

have seen that progressively declined, over the next few years

it will come back in some areas are not equally. We must look at new

functions. Bringing people back to live in and around shops but also

about thinking not just about shopping and consumption, in town

centres, it is about production. Lots of these places that we know

used to make things for the past 300 years. Today, places like Hong

Kong or cities in Turkey, they make things in amongst the shopping

centres with production. You might see many factoring that will then,

not unlike a Baker, they make in the store and sell at the front.

Like fancy jewellery shops, something with a silversmith in the

back that you can talk to the silversmiths. It may not be

expensive and at great value in terms of the cost to those at

rented but it is the experience that matters. What you are

describing reminds me of a visit and trip I took to the main street

in Cairo. That local goods are made nearby? Yes, lots of things are

outsourced and if you think of the places people go back to, not just

on holiday but nearby themselves, it is part to do with the human

experience. Not the best air- conditioning or the best job, it is

about the experience. People fire all around the world to go to some

of the north European Christmas markets, such as those in Germany,

because they are a fantastic experience. It is about the human

face to face interaction and exchange. We will leave it there,

thank you for that, Kevin Murray. A quick look at tomorrow's front

pages. Starting with The Scotsman. Leading on David Cameron's defeat

in the Commons, and the PM's authority undermined in the debate

for cash for Europe. The Daily Mail - Tory Euro rebels humiliate

Cameron, 53 Conservatives vote with Labour to demand the EU budget cut.

The Independent, genetic profiteering, scandal of firm

hiding breast cancer data. On The Guardian, David Cameron, Tory