06/11/2012 Newsnight Scotland

or we will not. If we do not, it could take much longer to resolve.

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: The government says it wants to improve

the basic literacy and numeracy of trainee teachers. But why is there

a problem in the first place? And will today's measures really

address it? Also tonight, the Alex Salmond is

now the longest serving First Minister. But can he make his main

policy equally popular? Good evening. Are our teachers up

to the job? The Scottish Government says yes - but how confident can

they be when they've decided to test their literacy and numeracy

skills? It's just one of a number of changes being proposed to

improve the standard of teaching in schools. Laura Bicker reports.

Scotland was once a world leader in education. Not any more. And there

is a view that in order for those days to return, improvements must

be made. So today, the Scottish government announced they would

shake up teacher training. All prospective teachers will undergo

literacy and numeracy tests. Masters level courses could also be

on offer. And there will be a �3 million fund available to support

higher quality learning a for teachers. Teachers who fail the

tests at basic skills will be offered extra support during their

training courses. And the Scottish government is also considering

introducing a qualification for anyone who wants to be a head

teacher, and it may become compulsory. These reforms are all

in the wake of a report by a former education inspector. It is not

about making teachers do anything, it is about the fact we have many

teachers in Scotland to want to do extra courses, who want to do a

master's course, about making sure they have the opportunity to do

exactly that. Two years ago, we revealed that primary teachers have

little confidence in their ability to teach certain subjects. Only 11%

said they felt confident teaching chemistry, that fell to 10% for

physics. Researchers at Dundee University found that two-thirds of

them have failed to master the p 7 maths they were expected to teach,

even though they were allowed an unlimited number of attempt to

reach the mark. There are fears today's report will not go far

enough to correct this. Some say part of the inspector's report has

been ignored. One major thing that was absent is concentrating on the

subject knowledge, the specialist knowledge in maths, language,

science, that teachers need to have, particularly in primary school.

That was a strong element of the report and it is just ignored, just

passed over to the universities which is disappointing.

ministers say they are working towards the future. Anyone can see

that the changes taking place, particularly in the curriculum for

excellence, are allowing teachers more freedom, allowing them to

build on the skills that they have, and this is very much part of that.

I believe this is allowing people to become even more confident about

what they do. So far, some teachers seem to welcome the proposals.

is very much up to the individual. I don't think the plans put forward

are for every teacher to be up to Masters, I did think that is what

they are saying, but it is to give people the opportunity to develop

their own lifelong learning for their job and their career and to

continue to enjoy their career. That has an impact obviously at

university level, which is where a lot of it will be concentrated on.

Possibly before coming into your teaching years, that you are

already at a master's level. focus on the modern classroom has

already been about -- so far been on class sizes. It seems now that

literacy and numeracy levels in our schools will not only be for the

pupils but by the teachers as well. I'm joined now by Edinburgh

University's professor of Educational Policy, Lindsay

Paterson, whom you saw in the film there. And here in Glasgow by Larry

Flanagan, General Secretary of the teachers' union the EIS. People

will be watching this and thinking it is somewhat alarming that we

should need to test trainee teachers for basic literacy and

numeracy. I think it is a fairly selective quotation from the

recommendations. If you go back to the... Be your I detest them or you

don't. If you go back to the original report, he indicated he

didn't believe there was a widespread problem with literacy

and numeracy in our schools. Now what has been put forward, firstly

it is a raising of the entry qualifications for moving into

teaching, which I think in itself will ensure basic competency in

literacy and numeracy, and a support mechanism where problems

identified for individuals on a course to provide some remedial

support. We are not convinced of a need for that, but if it does allow

otherwise potentially effective teachers to complete their studies,

we would be prepared to look at it. Do you think this is a minor thing?

A I don't at all. If you look at the statistics you summarised in

your film, it indicates it is a problem, and it is reported by

children -- teachers themselves. The report today glosses over all

of that. There is not in fact any commitment commitment to raising

the Standard, it is a report into another report, we don't know what

the content of that is. Is that entirely fair? One of the issues

that the double chen and report went on about is the idea that

primary school teachers should not be able to get to where they are

biting a Bachelor of Education degree. Today's report says that

his recommendation that it should be phased out and that primary

school teachers should have to do and academic degree, today's report

claims that is already happening. The report says absolutely nothing

about the curricular content of undergraduate teacher Education

courses, but we don't have any published evidence as to whether

that is going to bring about any real change. There are some very

good new courses being proposed, but crucially for this report,

there is no national picture, national standard. We need a lot

more detail what is going to be in these courses. You wouldn't agree

that these courses are being phased out? They are in name, but the

question is, what is the real content, what is the academic

rigour? What is the new academic rigour been introduced? Some new

proposals are being introduced, but we don't have a systematic picture.

Do you agree with that? I find these comments slightly strange, in

that what the report recommends is a partnership approach and

universities are very central to those partnerships. So the idea

that the universities are not capable of developing for rigour

required for these new courses seems to me somewhat contradictory.

The report creates a framework... Is it a case as a matter of fact

that most new entrants to primary teaching are now doing academic

degrees which involve studying so did other than education?

couldn't give you the actual fact. A would be surprised. The

recommendations on normally coming to the 4th. A number of

universities have started to develop new courses, I am not sure

if the current intake are embarking on these courses. Would you agree

that the principle as outlined by the report, that to be a primary

school teacher you should know something more than...? I think

there is a consensus around the fact that it will involve a certain

discipline. I think the reference to a perception of people being

under skilled in certain areas is precisely why these courses are

being developed, but they do take time to materialise and bedding.

you don't think there is any consistency in the way this is

being done, what do you think should be done? What we need is

some public debate about the content. The teachers agree with

this idea that there should be more academic rigour, more attention to

specialist subject, then this had been passed on to the universities

without any public debate about what the standards should be. That

may come in due course but we don't have that yet. We don't have the

basis for confident that these proposals will be implemented.

remind us the fact of what we are talking about. It was the case that

you could do... You could become a primary teacher and really, you

were being taught how to teach. The new system is, you would have a

degree, like anyone else, you would specialise in certain things that

are nothing to do with education? The criticism was that it didn't

cover any particular discipline, to provide the specialist knowledge,

that is what the new courses will address. That more in depth content

in terms of subject disciplines. You think it is inconsistent the

way this is being implemented? What about your idea of basic literacy

and numeracy tests? You quoted that in terms of mathematical skills,

this is urgently required. It will almost certainly be the case that

these new tests will be set at far too low a level. The government

suggests they will be roughly at the level of standard rate, that is

not nearly enough. So that already is a rather disappointing element

of this report. What would you say to that? I don't agree with him.

Already, to access one of these courses you would need to have

higher English and higher maths. thought you didn't? The vast

majority of people teaching in primary schools don't have to have

higher maths...? We are discussing the prim book for her to move

things forward -- the framework. It will be at the level well beyond

the equivalent of standard rate. If there is a further need, the

evidence may be produced, we are unconvinced that is required.

parents watching this, the fact is that if their children are at

primary school, it is unlikely, from the timescales you were

talking about, that this new refurbished teacher will be

teaching their children. Presumably that is why there is this talk

about literacy and numeracy tests and giving credit to teachers who

I don't think that is what the report is saying. If you're saying

that the maths isn't up to there, a lot of Premier teachers there?

Lindsay is looking evidence from two years ago. Ream Donaldson does

not believe it either. In his report he said there was no hard

evidence on it. He did not see a major or significant problem but

there was an impressionistic view that there was some need for some

support for some individuals. If that is the case, we can look at

that. We do have hard evidence that was quoted in that film. We also

had evidence from around the world that teachers with a better at

specialist subject skills are better teachers. That is an

explanation of the rather mediocre performance of primary school

teacher -- premier school education in Scotland. It seems plausible

that that problem is the tip of subject knowledge of the teachers.

Should all teachers be encouraged to do masters degrees? In principle

we have no objection to a Master's level profession. The challenge is

how you move from where we are to achieving that. In principle we

support it. It is ironic that this proposal is coming from a

Government he is doing away with the teacher programme which was the

best attempt so far at achieving a masters level profession. But what

we're prepared to do is engage with the Government taking idea forward.

Is this a good idea? It depends what the courses on about. In the

report it was shown that teachers should develop their subject skills

after at their post. The Master's courses here a very bleak.

Management and things can be important. -- very the week. There

was no mention of the specialist subjects in the report.

probably support what is being announced today, Larry Flanagan?

Yes, one of the key issues is that the report allows the teacher trade

union to be involved. There is a number of contested areas that

still require further discussion. And you think it is irrelevant to

the real problem? Does not relevant, I do not think it does any harm, it

is just disappointing. It does not take us anywhere near it the

welcome recommendations that were made two years ago. What

recommendations that were actually in the report me to be brought what

now? Much more stringent entry requirements. Some figures are

being quoted but have not yet been published. Secondly, we need more

specialist teaching. Third, the development of specialist skills

after teachers around posts. And fourthly, it should be a

partnership between universities and schools. This report is about

universities and local authorities. It is bureaucratic. Presumably, you

do not disagree with that. I would absolutely agree with the last.

There. Universities and schools do need to work together. Teachers are

not the problem at their part of the solution. The report as good as

a framework to take forward key aspects where there is a consensus.

Where there is not a consensus we need to have further discussion.

The First Minister wrote a special record to date. Alex Salmond is the

longest serving First Minister overtaking Jack McConnell. He has

been has both at 2001 days. But it is estate that was the high point

in his office post sofa. He was getting a deal to hold an

independence referendum. I believe in the ability of persuasion on

this island. But he will probably be getting used to electoral

success. I heard a rumour. I think we won the election. May 2007 and

day one of a minority Government as First Minister. Four years later he

appeared to defy it electoral gravity as the SNP secured an

outright majority. I heard another rumour. We have won another

election. During his ascent six opposition leaders have fallen away.

This is the 9th to take them on. There have been setbacks also.

he sought advice from Scottish law officers in this matter? Yes.

and what did they say? You can read that in the documents put forward.

It shows memories of the other sides of his reputation, his

critics say that you have to keep him at eye on him. Knows the chance

that when she sees one. He is not known for his modesty, but Alex

Salmond would acknowledge that he has not done it on his own. A team

of confident ministers helps, as have some policies which have often

proved popular. A milestone for the first minister, but milestones like

this can become millstones. It is not always a good idea to remind

the public how long you been doing a job.

I am joined now it might David Torrance, Alex Salmond's biographer.

It looked like his career was over for a while. Yes. He was the

original combat kit in a Scottish context. Winnie keep up the

leadership in at 2,000 he had already led the party for ten years.

He has come back and led them for another eight. Why do you think he

did by were? This is the perennial mystery of Scottish politics. As

many no rumours abounded at a time with gambling debts and things like

that. But no one has ever been able to pin down crucial evidence on

that. His line at that time was that his political capital was

spent, the media were tired of him and it was time for him to move on.

Although that might seem a boring explanation I think it is the

correct one. He has confounded his own expectations then. Absolutely.

Alex Salmond, the key to his success is his ability to connect

with the mainstream Scottish political opinion. Poll after poll

shows that people believe that he stands up for Scotland. They might

not know how, they might not know what it means, but they believe

that he defence Scotland's interests. But events that within

the United Kingdom, crucially. you think a broader reason is that

the success of the SNP? It cannot just be Alex Salmond, although it

is partly to do with him. When he was leader the first time round he

did not get them anywhere. There must be something else going on.

Yes, the first time round Alex Salmond did not have the devolution

context which is crucial to the SNP's recent success. What Alex

Salmond do it, and let us remembered that he started off as a

left winger. But now we is an ideological mismatch combining what

he sees as the popular elements of left, right and centre politics.

His politics has always been to construct a tent for nationalism in

Scotland and attract the widest possible support. That began to pay

off in 2007 and paid up superbly last year. The issue for her now,

the challenge, is it is one thing to get people to vote for you for a

Government to run it at all it Scotland, it is another to get

people to vote for independence. At least if you believe the polls, he

has not had that much success. is the crucial separation. I think

his achievements have been primarily electoral as first

minister. And that is electoral in their context of the SNP. Those

wins were not fantastic achievements. But he hasn't

substantially shifted support for independence onwards. He has

secured a referendum, but that does not in itself getting any further

to convincing the majority of Scots that they should back independence.

But you very much indeed. A quick look at tomorrow's papers.

The do not know the result of the election, but the Times says it is

the decision. The Independent says there might

America chose its future. That is all for me tonight. We do