13/11/2012 Newsnight Scotland

you. Tonight on Newsnight Scotlandt: The

chairman of a leading FE College quits, claiming he's the victim of

an unwarranted personal attack by the Education Secretary. Kirk

Ramsay secretly recorded a meeting involving Michael Russell. We'll be

speaking to him live about what happened and what he thinks should

Good evening. The chairman of one of Scotland's leading Further

Education colleges has quit his job tonight. Kirk Ramsay of Stow

College in Glasgow says he's the victim of an unwarranted personal

attack. And his alleged attacker? The Education Secretary, Mike

Russell. Mr Russell demanded Mr Ramsay's head when it was revealed

that he'd secretly recorded a meeting attended by the Education

Secretary. Well, now he's got it. I'll be speaking to Mr Ramsay in a

moment, as well as to Stuart Maxwell, the SNP convener of

Holyrood's education committee, and Hugh Henry, Labour's education

spokesman. But first, Laura Bicker reports on an acrimonious spat, and

the future of Scotland's Further It is usually the staff but spy

drama, but now a secret recording at a private meeting has asked all

asking why a? And what is going on in our colleges? Here is what we

know, Mike Russell was having a meeting with further education

college ministers, unknown to him it was being secretly recorded by

Kirk Ramsay, chairman of Stow College. It is said that Mr Ramsey

gave that versions of the recording to other leaders in the day of

education sector. He later apologised, but Mike Russell says

he no longer trust a man, and has demanded that he consider his

position. Some consider that harassment and bullying. A question

in Holyrood today. People are contacting me to say they are

frightened to speak out about the way the Cabinet Secretary is

treating them. Surely the way he has BA towards Mr Ramsay -- the way

has behaved towards Mr Ramsay has confirmed these fears? Is it time

he apologise? The meeting in question was a very positive one,

as most of them are. We engaged in a process of radical reform, which

is important in all parts of the sector. We are debating and

discussing what should take place. Anything diminishing those debates,

such as a secret recording is to be regretted. In the last few hours,

Mr Ramsay has resigned, following what he described as an unwarranted

personal attack. He adds that he remains firm that he has done

nothing wrong. He intends to clear his name. There may be a reason for

strained relations between the Scottish government and some in the

further education sector, they are starting to feel the effect of

budget cuts, and mergers. There were rate total of 314,585 students

studying last year. -- there were a total. There is a greater mix that

universities. Some of them are from the most deprived areas of Scotland.

Funding for further education is falling, last year the budget was

�545 billion. By 2015 it will be �471 million. That is a real terms

cut of 24%. Morale is low in the sector, because the Secretary has

been stretched by the size of the cuts. It is low because of the

regionalisation process. It is low because many deceive the attitude

by the government to them, and the way in which the sector is merely

perceived as providing workplace training by young people.

Historically, the college sector in Scotland has been far wider, and

has provided education for personal development, and far wider.

theory is that these cuts will affect those who need further

education most. 16-19-year-olds. Disproportionate cuts to the sector,

which are deeply damaging to students, staff numbers, to the

types of courses that are being offered, and sadly, when it comes

to teaching budgets, they are being cut to relieve a greater extent. --

to an even greater extent. Tonight, the Scottish government says it

respect Mr Ramsay's decision to resign. The heart of the row is not

just within the substance of the argument, it is a perceived

breakdown of trust on both sides at a very trying time for the sector.

I'm joined now by Kirk Ramsay, the now-former chair of Stow College in

Glasgow. Why did you decide to step down? It was an easy decision,

because the minister to go a personal attack against me, -- made

a personal attack against me. It made a difficult situation, and

they could transfer to my college. Given the passion I have had built

colleges for many years, and for the last two years as the chair of

a college, I would never create a situation where any danger was

placed before the college sector if I can avoid it. You felt your

position had become untenable? practical terms, yes. Although the

Education Secretary has no power to fire the head of a college, you

think it is simply untenable? he has started a campaign, and made

sure it finished up in public, without any rational discussion,

without any chance for me to respond, you have a very biased and

unreasonable position from which people draw conclusions, whether

correct on lot. D -- do you believe it? Without a doubt. To be

absolutely clear, you feel you have been forced out, and you're not

resigning because you feel you have done anything wrong? I have not

done anything wrong. Even in the short meeting which took place with

the Cabinet Secretary, he acknowledged that. This was last

Wednesday evening, the 7th, outside of normal business hours. I had

been called to a meeting to discuss a private matter. I had no

knowledge of the topic, no knowledge of the minister being

there, or any concerns that were there. I arrive to find the

minister and three others, and the minister was obviously in an

unhappy state, and was reluctant to shake my hand before the meeting

started. I realised that something he was not quite right. This

meeting, you say three officials from the education department? He

said what you in that meeting? said that I had made a recording of

him, and I confess that I had to pause and think about it, and

realised he had been referring to the meeting in October, where I did

use my pen to take notes, and record his speech to review it

afterwards. I would have taken action afterwards after reviewing

it. The ad say that he wanted you to go? He said if I could remove

the chair of a college, I would remove you immediately. Let's go

back a few days, what was his meeting for? The meeting took place

on the 1st October, it was not a few days before, it was five days

before. How many people or at the meeting? It was about 80-have

thundered. -- 80-100. It was not a small private conversation? It was

not a private group, it was a speech outlining the next steps he

believe would -- believed were correct. I believe it was a helpful

speech, I said it was one of the most helpful speeches he had made.

If there were 80-100 people there, what were you thinking of? Did you

feel they might be a problem -- there might be a problem? What we

recording with? A smart pen. It is M I depend, a round five times the

size of a normal pen, with a display on the top, it is rather

conspicuous. It is about half as wide as my mobile phone, it is not

exactly an inconspicuous item. it to write on electronic pad?

right on a -- 8 rights on electronic pad? It flashes. Mike

Russell said it was a private speech, and felt offended because

he did not telling you -- you did not tell him you were recording it?

It was an open meeting, we had to take back and start acting on the

speech. Many people took notes of various types. The room was full of

phones, the devices were being used in many different ways. Is it

normal to do this? I would do this, I suffer from tinnitus, I would not

suffer -- we should a my worst enemy. He makes it difficult for me

to here sometimes. Using a smart pain is a big help to me. -- smart

pen. Is that what you did with this I did that for my own purposes. It

was after words that to when I discussed it, it was clear there

were some gaps in interpretation of what had been said. I thought, well,

I have got a recording, we were there, there is no inappropriate

use of the information, it is simply being used for the purpose

the Minister intended his speech to be used for, to have colleges

develop strategic plans for the future. He in your view, if the

situation is as you describe it, it with a big meeting, I get that this

was 8200 people, why do you think Mr Russell was really so annoyed

about you making the recording? honestly do not know. The most

common complaint I have heard from politicians in the past is that

their words do not get used enough. I have never heard of anyone

complaining about their words being used again, so why do not

understand why it is such a big issue. -- I do not. I can

understand him not being entirely delighted that he was unaware that

it was taking place, but there is no legitimate problem with it. He

said from his own advice that I had not done anything wrong, but he did

not like it. He said his advisers said you had not done anything

wrong? His legal advice was that I had not done anything out of the

law caveat he demanded my resignation. -- law, but he

demanded my resignation. Behind all this, and the situation you find

yourself saying, there are these allegations that there is a climate

of fear developing at the top of the education system, particularly

because of the behaviour of the Education Secretary, it is alleged.

Is that the true in your review? Yes. There are many people in the

education system, the college sector in particular, that are

nervous, that would be the easy way to put it, about putting forward

their opinions. Why is that? Because the Education Secretary

does not take criticism easily. He mentions debate in his piece

earlier, the fact is, there has been very little debates,

unfortunately. They really should be vigorous debate about the way

for word for colleges. Lastly, he would like the Scottish Parliament

education committee to do something about this. Yes, I think the

Minister in this case has over- reacted grossly. He has in effect

created a situation where there is injustice supplied. I thought that

this was Scotland in the 21st century, I did not realise it was

Syria in the dreaded first century we would expect so much injustice

to be applied. So you want an inquiry? I think it needs to be

looked at carefully because many areas of the sector have been like

this long time, and it seems my situation has crystallised a number

of issue that had been there for some time. He wants the education

committee to have an inquiry into this case? I think that would be

the useful first step to look at this properly. We have to leave it

there. Thank you. Nobody from the Government was

available to speak to us tonight, but I'm joined from Edinburgh by

Stewart Maxwell, the SNP convener of parliament's Education committee

and also by Labour's Hugh Henry. He's also in Edinburgh. Stuart, I

assume you could hear that, Mr Ramsay says that he would like you

Committee to open an investigation into what is happening here. Or

will you do that? I think most investigations or inquiries that we

undertake, we are in the middle of one at the moment on the decision-

making process on when children should be removed from the parental

home, an important inquiry, but the purpose is to find out facts that

you do not know. The facts in this case are in dispute. Mr Ramsay

secretly recorded a meeting. It wasn't a public, open meeting, it

was a private meeting with colleges and the Cabinet Secretary, and he

used a covert recording device. I know he called it a smart pen, it

is actually called a spy pen. The distributor that material and he

did not ask for permission Laurenne four and that he was doing it.

Trust has broken down. Are you going to have an inquiry or not?

The purpose is to find out and eat... He was saying no. We have

had the chair of one of the leading colleges telling NASA that he feels

that he is being forced out of his job. -- telling us that he feels.

The Education Secretary said if I could sack duo are tried, I would

do that, had he also said that he had asks his legal advisers if Mr

Ramsey had 10 anything wrong and was told he had not. -- I would

sack you outright. And your attitude is, move along, nothing to

see here?! The point of the inquiry would be to establish facts that

are not available. That is not the case here. We have an undisputed

set of facts, we know it has happened. Clearly Mr Ramsey as a

view on the interpretation of these facts and the Cabinet secretary has

a different view. That does not changed the issue that the facts

are not in dispute. He used a covert recording device and that

was his decision, and as a result of this, a trust has broken down

and surprisingly between Mr Ramsey and the Cabinet Secretary. Annie

when in a position of any employer or employment would be in exactly

the same situation. -- and E one. Hugh Henry, do you think there is

anything to see here? I do think there should be an inquiry and I

would hope that Stuart Maxwell would stand for Parliament and not

the Cabinet Secretary. We have a situation where it would appear

that Mr Ramsay has done nothing untoward. He has taken down details

of a meeting and shared it with some colleagues and we now have a

fit of temper, basically, from the Cabinet Secretary. So I think the

Parliament needs to know what the true facts behind all this hard. I

think it's a shame that a good man has been forced out by bowling and

intimidating behaviour by the Cabinet secretary. -- by a bullying.

The Scottish education is the loser. I am not clear what the problem is

here. Bowe's people would understand that if this was a

meeting of select heads of educational institutions with the

Cabinet secretary, maybe half-a- dozen people, it would be untoward

to record this meeting were that everyone knowing. -- most people.

But a meeting of up to 100 people, that is like saying it is

outrageous to record a press conference! That is a ridiculous

statement. This was a closed meeting to discuss processes going

forward with the college reform agenda. It was not a public meeting

and Mr Ramsay secretly recorded it. That is a very important matter

that has to be looked at. The smokescreen by the Labour Party is

outrageous. Can we ask you as someone that is not in the

Government, but presumably supports it, how large a meeting at the

citizens of Scotland allowed to be in that involve Government Minister

is when they can start recording it? Is at 300, 400? If 100 is not

enough, how big must it be? Perhaps you should ask Mr Ramsay. He has

reprimanded a member of his own staff at the college for revealing

details of a meeting that they had, they did not recorded but they

revealed details of a meeting they had attended and they were publicly

reprimanded by Mr Ramsey. It is interesting that he takes that view

on his staff that cannot reveal a meeting details that he chaired,

but he is allowed to see good record using covert devices,

meetings with Cabinet Secretary and other colleges. That is not

unreasonable, as you Henry? I think Stuart Maxwell is missing the point

that grow. This is a government obsessed by secrecy. They had used

taxpayers' money to go to court to try and hide facts about legal

advise, which actually did not exist. Why is there a cover up?

Quiet determination not to allow colleagues of Mr Ramsey to find out

what went on at that meeting. What was so bad about what happened at

that meeting that it could not be shared with others in further

education? This goes beyond this issue. This Cabinet Secretary has

forming getting people to resign if they do not agree with them. This

is about intimidation, cuts, trying to deny the facts, trying to cover

up. You are suddenly increasingly wild inure allegations. You say

this is about intimidation. I do not think macro so would deny

cutting the budgets, it is the right thing to do if he judges this

as Education Minister. -- I do not think Mr Russell would deny. They

have tried to deny the facts of cuts in the college budget. They

tried to rubbish comments from Ordered Scotland. They have tried

to deny the facts. According to them, there is nothing wrong with

what is happening in the colleges in Scotland. Why is that so many

senior people are afraid to Speakout? That is not have the

first Scottish education. It judge be the heart of a robust debate. --

healthy for a Scottish education. The education committee receives

information and evidence from many people in the further Education

sector. We see many people making their views perfectly clear. The

idea that there is some sort of secret conspiracy going on is an

illusion that only exists with the Labour Party. Mr Ramsay has

confirmed tonight that there are senior people that are scared to

Speakout. Senior people have contacted me to express concerns

that they are scared to put their head above the Power apart, that is

not happy. -- parapet. Throughout these people? I have a lot identify

these people, they literally fear for their future and the future of

their colleges and it would be remiss of me to put them under the

limelight. It this is nonsense. This is not nonsense, the education

committee receives evidence, very critical of the Government. People

seem to be able to provide this evidence to the committee and the

media, so I do not recognise the world he is living in. Mr Ramsay

has talking about this tonight. Thank you very much. We had to

leave it there. Let's look at the A picture of Abu Qatada on the