21/11/2012 Newsnight Scotland


21/11/2012

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 21/11/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

some now deciding to change what they study and others not to go at

:00:02.:00:11.
:00:12.:00:16.

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: We investigate Westminster's allegedly

:00:16.:00:21.

criminal cuts to welfare. This is a Dundee food bank doling out some of

:00:21.:00:25.

the basics to some of Scotland's poorest people. The group

:00:25.:00:28.

representing charity say expect more of this. Do the claims stand

:00:28.:00:31.

up to examination? And should campaigners be careful

:00:31.:00:37.

about their language? Is it helpful to say Westminster is criminal and

:00:37.:00:42.

that Alex Salmond lies instinctive as one MSP said today.

:00:42.:00:46.

Good evening. Criminal cuts to welfare that was the accusation

:00:46.:00:50.

fired by Nicola Sturgeon and by the Scottish Council for voluntary

:00:50.:00:54.

organisations, the umbrella group representing charities. But are

:00:54.:00:58.

they right? Welfare is a reserve matter but the Department of Work

:00:58.:01:02.

and Pensions spends almost �14 billion a year in Scotland, a fair

:01:02.:01:05.

sized chunk of the country's kpd. Reevel Alderson examines the

:01:05.:01:15.
:01:15.:01:15.

proposed cuts and what they might Preparing food parcels, they're

:01:15.:01:19.

vitally needed by people who simply don't have sufficient money to pay

:01:19.:01:25.

for the essentials. Many who come to this food bank in Dundee are on

:01:25.:01:30.

benefits. Volunteer Shauna found herself homeless after a family

:01:30.:01:36.

break down and she was forced to turn to the food bank. When I was

:01:36.:01:42.

moving different places, the food that they gave me was enough to

:01:42.:01:48.

keep me going because with the accommodation I was in I had a

:01:48.:01:53.

service charge taken off my benefit on job seekers. As a result I was

:01:53.:01:59.

left to live off �69 a for the night. Demand for food banks is

:01:59.:02:03.

growing rapidly, partly because of the recession, partly because of

:02:03.:02:08.

changes to benefits. Last year, there was one in Scotland. Now

:02:08.:02:13.

there are 20, seven set up in the last month. We can tell from our

:02:13.:02:17.

data collection system about 60% of those that are referred to food

:02:17.:02:21.

banks have experienced either a benefit delay or cut. Whether it's

:02:21.:02:25.

down to welfare reforms themselves, that's hard to obviously identify.

:02:25.:02:31.

But we do know that a lot of people are experiencing abject poverty on

:02:31.:02:36.

account of changes to benefits. That's something that concerns us.

:02:36.:02:41.

The welfare budget in Scotland is huge. It was just under �14 billion

:02:41.:02:46.

in the last financial year, a figure including old aged pensions.

:02:46.:02:51.

Apart from that Housing Benefit was the largest benefit �1.7 billion.

:02:51.:02:56.

The Government wants to trim that figure. Incapacity benefit, another

:02:56.:03:01.

Government target is worth � 564 million, considerably larger than

:03:01.:03:11.

the �460 million spent on jobseeker's allowance. Paul has

:03:11.:03:15.

studied benefits payments and who receives them. He says cuts will

:03:15.:03:21.

have to be borne by a minority of claimants. The difficulty is that

:03:21.:03:23.

they've been talking, not about cutting the whole welfare budget,

:03:23.:03:27.

which would be difficult enough, but about cutting only part of it.

:03:27.:03:31.

The part they want to cut are to people who are out of work, of

:03:31.:03:35.

working age. Now that's about a third of the benefit system and

:03:35.:03:40.

it's very difficult to see how the level of cuts that the Government

:03:40.:03:47.

wants to take out can possibly come from that group. Charities and

:03:47.:03:50.

voluntary organisations, the third sector, were discussing cuts in

:03:50.:03:54.

Edinburgh today. The deputy First Minister, for one, accepts reform

:03:54.:03:57.

is needed but disagrees with the way it's being carried out.

:03:57.:04:00.

Everybody accepts the welfare system needs to be reformed, but

:04:00.:04:04.

many people are concerned that the Westminster Government is

:04:04.:04:09.

implementing radical cuts in the name of reform and that these cuts

:04:09.:04:14.

will penalised some of the most vulnerable people in society. The

:04:14.:04:17.

voluntary organisations expressing these concerns are organisation

:04:17.:04:23.

that's deal day in daily with many of the most vulnerable people in

:04:23.:04:25.

Scotland. They are very worried about the impact the reforms will

:04:25.:04:35.
:04:35.:04:37.

have on them. Three quart irz of Scots charities expect demand for

:04:37.:04:40.

their services to increase dramatically in the next year.

:04:40.:04:44.

Stkpwiet these warnings are still gaps in the debate about welfare

:04:44.:04:50.

reform. One of the important gaps has been really consideration of

:04:50.:04:54.

what direction we want benefits to go in. It's helped that we've had a

:04:54.:04:58.

discussion on universal benefits. It's helped that we're talking

:04:58.:05:04.

about many of the issues of medical problems, disability, but at the

:05:04.:05:09.

same time, there's still a fair amount of a debate which seems to

:05:09.:05:13.

miss the target. What happening is that the number of pensioners are

:05:13.:05:16.

increasing. That will drive benefits up. If we're talking about

:05:16.:05:21.

the future of benefits in Scotland, we really need to ask what kind of

:05:21.:05:26.

provision we want to make for older people and how that provision can

:05:26.:05:32.

best be made. The Westminster Government says cuts to the welfare

:05:32.:05:37.

budget will make benefits fairer, more affordable and better able to

:05:37.:05:43.

tackle poverty. I'm joined now by Martin Sime, the

:05:43.:05:48.

chief executive of the Council for voluntary organisations. What do

:05:48.:05:53.

you mean whu call welfare reform criminal? I think we've chosen our

:05:53.:05:57.

language carefully. I hope that your viewers are quite shocked by

:05:57.:06:02.

the report from Dundee that we've got to emergency food parcels

:06:02.:06:06.

because people are not getting properly supported. The cuts are a

:06:06.:06:10.

stkhrib rat assault on some of the poorest people in our country.

:06:10.:06:15.

They're an attack on the human rights of all - Hang on. They're

:06:15.:06:21.

welfare reforms being implemented by a Democratically elected

:06:21.:06:26.

Government. These are cuts and expenditure. There's money taken

:06:26.:06:29.

out of the pockets of our poorest citizens. This is a deliberate

:06:29.:06:33.

policy a Government that has made a choice here. There is no question

:06:33.:06:37.

that this is about us all being in this together. They have decided to

:06:37.:06:41.

spend a lower proportion of their total income on welfare, at

:06:41.:06:48.

precisely the time that more people need help. This is unacceptable.

:06:48.:06:51.

would be somewhat more convincing if it was supported by the evidence

:06:51.:06:54.

in your own report. One of the sections in your report is called

:06:54.:06:58.

"what is the single most important issue currently facing

:06:59.:07:04.

organisations?" You list eight responses, which are presumably

:07:04.:07:08.

samples. Only one mentioned welfare reform. That was an advice agency

:07:08.:07:12.

and one can understand that people are coming in saying, I see on the

:07:12.:07:17.

telly all the stuff about welfare reform, what does it mean to me?

:07:17.:07:20.

Some of the advice will be that some won't be affected by it. It

:07:20.:07:25.

hardly goes to the idea that a bunch of criminals are imposing

:07:25.:07:29.

welfare reforms which your own organisations don't seem to see as

:07:29.:07:34.

a problem. 63% of our members say that they will be affected, they

:07:34.:07:38.

will have more demand as a result of... Let's not call them welfare

:07:38.:07:42.

reforms. We are in the mid. Worst recession since the 30s. This is a

:07:42.:07:46.

policy to take more than a proportionate share out of the

:07:46.:07:51.

budget. For example, even your figure that you trumpeted about 81%

:07:51.:07:56.

of organisations expect the financial situation for charities

:07:56.:08:02.

to worsen, it's a highly selective reading of your survey. Actually

:08:02.:08:06.

it's 45% of organisations don't expect their financial situation to

:08:07.:08:13.

worsen. 81 % say the area as a whole will worsen. I'm talking

:08:13.:08:17.

about welfare cuts taking money out of the pockets sts poorest in our

:08:17.:08:21.

country and causing mayhem and distress on an enrmous scale. Our

:08:21.:08:24.

members are trying very hard to pick up the pieces and help people

:08:24.:08:29.

where they can. What we have to remember here is that 80% of these

:08:29.:08:33.

cuts are still to be implemented. If this was a rational reform

:08:33.:08:37.

programme that was well planned and everybody knew how this was going

:08:37.:08:40.

to work, then there may be some case for it. The truth of the

:08:40.:08:46.

matter is that these reforms will cause chaos. They had been poorly

:08:46.:08:50.

thought there. There has not been an impact analysis on people.

:08:50.:08:54.

other side of this is that many people among the public,

:08:54.:08:58.

particularly in a time of economic distress like this, of course,

:08:59.:09:03.

there are people very poor people who suffer from changes in any

:09:03.:09:06.

welfare reforms. But the public are also concerned, people get annoyed

:09:06.:09:10.

that they see people on benefits when they're loseing their jobs, or

:09:10.:09:13.

perhaps when they're having to work even harder and people are doing

:09:13.:09:18.

nothing. It's not unreasonable to try to reform the system. But your

:09:18.:09:23.

own report, I mean you sat here and made a series of wild allegations...

:09:23.:09:27.

These are not wild allegations. They're facts. You haven't backed

:09:27.:09:33.

them up. It is a simple fact. The money is coming out. It's not just

:09:33.:09:38.

people who are unemployed. The in- work poor will be, there are more

:09:38.:09:42.

people in work who will be affected by these cuts than there are who

:09:42.:09:46.

aren't in the work. We all know that unemployment is very high just

:09:47.:09:49.

now. These cuts will affect hundreds of thousands of people.

:09:49.:09:53.

That's not a wild allegation. The Institute of Fiscal Studies

:09:53.:09:57.

produced a report that backed up those figures. These are cuts which

:09:57.:10:02.

will take resources away from our poorest citizens. It will cause

:10:02.:10:06.

people to turn to food banks. I don't know, I'm ashamed to live in

:10:06.:10:11.

a country where we have to collect up food to feed people. I thought

:10:11.:10:21.

In April, most benefits went up by eight fight 0.2%. That will be a

:10:21.:10:25.

real term increase this year. The vast majority of wage earners this

:10:25.:10:30.

you have seen a real-terms cut. Could you explain how giving a

:10:30.:10:33.

real-terms increase in benefits while most wages are being cut is a

:10:33.:10:37.

criminal injustice? If you only have �50 per week to

:10:37.:10:42.

spend and fuel bills got up more than 10%, it is difficult for

:10:42.:10:47.

people to heat their homes... is not the point.

:10:47.:10:51.

It is absolutely clear, nobody is living in benefit of luxury in

:10:51.:10:55.

Scotland. At sorry, you are missing the

:10:55.:11:00.

points -- point... Are there are lots of people in Scotland will

:11:00.:11:03.

oppose this policy. It makes no economic or practical

:11:03.:11:07.

sense, it will cause enormous impact on public services. These

:11:07.:11:13.

cuts cannot be justified under any card. On the fight 0.2%, you're

:11:13.:11:20.

missing the point. People on very low in comes, by 0.2% will not feel

:11:20.:11:25.

like a big increase, but of course working people on pudding comes,

:11:25.:11:30.

sometimes supported by benefit, they have no pay increases like

:11:30.:11:40.

that. -- -- working people on low income so.

:11:40.:11:45.

That is a wild allegation. increasing benefits by the retail

:11:45.:11:48.

price index has been the established protocol for the last

:11:48.:11:50.

20 years. This Government is about to change

:11:50.:11:56.

that so that price increases will not be reflected in benefit

:11:56.:12:01.

increases. It will take further away from poor people in the long

:12:01.:12:05.

term. I am not saying that Bedford Levels are acceptable as they are,

:12:05.:12:09.

but I resist the idea we can cut them even further. Thank you very

:12:10.:12:14.

much. The actor we had just been

:12:14.:12:18.

discussing was based, in part, on a press release from the Scottish --

:12:19.:12:25.

Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, which accused the

:12:25.:12:29.

Government of criminal cuts to welfare. Elsewhere, one politician

:12:29.:12:37.

has described a colleague as someone who lies instinctively. As

:12:37.:12:41.

-- are these attempts to have a point back of the you heard or is

:12:41.:12:51.
:12:51.:12:53.

the very currency of debate being There is no doubt politics is a

:12:53.:12:57.

serious business and disagreements held -- run deep. There is no doubt

:12:57.:13:01.

personal animosity and simple competitive this contributing to

:13:01.:13:07.

the level, volume and style of the debate. But can it go too far?

:13:07.:13:13.

Today, Richard Baker released a press release about Alex Salmond

:13:13.:13:19.

under the headings that he lives instinctively. Earlier, a report

:13:19.:13:22.

warned of an environmental catastrophe of Government targets

:13:22.:13:25.

were missed. The Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, as we

:13:25.:13:28.

have seen, described the UK Government welfare policy as

:13:28.:13:33.

criminal. Last weekend, Scottish Labour issued a press release about

:13:33.:13:39.

Scottish Parliament in crisis over the Education Statistics. The SNP

:13:39.:13:43.

said that former fire raiser Lord Watson rejoining Labour was an

:13:43.:13:51.

insult to those whose lines he had endangered. All of these issues are

:13:51.:13:55.

serious, and some may even be justified, but if the first

:13:55.:13:58.

response to anything is to go to extreme language, is that helping

:13:58.:14:07.

to inform and persuade voters? I am joined now by Katy Grant, and

:14:07.:14:12.

from Edinburgh, mint, Simon Pia, political sketch writer and former

:14:12.:14:18.

Labour spin-doctor. A You have just heard Martin Sime,

:14:18.:14:22.

he is clearly passionately holding the views he has and he argues done

:14:22.:14:27.

rather well. Perhaps he would have been better placed not to accuse

:14:27.:14:30.

the Government of being criminals. I think a lot of people have

:14:30.:14:34.

sympathy with Martin, throughout the UK, but he undermines his own

:14:34.:14:40.

argument by describing it as criminal. It is not against the law,

:14:40.:14:45.

and I think you do use will -- you do lose sympathy bring you make

:14:45.:14:51.

your argument in that manner. Also, if the Unionist Party's call Alex

:14:51.:14:53.

Salmond a liar all the time, although he has been found out

:14:54.:14:59.

making things up... But you can say when someone is

:15:00.:15:05.

caught out, Liar, Liar, pants on fire, but to say that Alex Salmond

:15:05.:15:09.

is an instinctive liar, as if he is suffering from a personality defect,

:15:09.:15:16.

is a different matter. I would agree with you. I think the joys of

:15:16.:15:20.

the word instinctive was incorrect, he probably thinks about it. Alex

:15:20.:15:24.

Salmond does that in the chamber a lot, he makes it up as he goes a

:15:24.:15:28.

long, and that has been a criticism dating back to the previous

:15:28.:15:34.

Parliament of him. But I think politicians and advocates like

:15:34.:15:38.

Martin Sime should leave it to people like Katy Grant and myself

:15:38.:15:43.

to use language, and the media... Katy Grant, you would never dream

:15:43.:15:45.

of using language like that, would you?

:15:46.:15:51.

I would not, but politicians are lazy. Cs Lewis said that people use

:15:51.:15:55.

words like appalling and criminal and liar because they are leaving

:15:55.:16:00.

of the reader to make it up for themselves. It is an idle way of

:16:00.:16:06.

making fun of people. It the use hyperbole, the language is

:16:06.:16:11.

exhausted. Completely intemperate language,

:16:11.:16:16.

talking about chaos and mayhem... He is not helping himself. He did

:16:16.:16:19.

make a very powerful argument, let us be fair.

:16:19.:16:24.

At I agree, but by and politicians and people advocating a cos

:16:25.:16:29.

permanently use hyperbole, it loses any kind of meaning. Everything now

:16:29.:16:35.

is a tragedy, it doesn't matter if it is a tsunami, it says a tragedy,

:16:35.:16:40.

if it is three trains being cancelled it is a catastrophe, we

:16:40.:16:45.

have not balance. It is not just a bad language, is it? We were

:16:45.:16:50.

supposed to, if he believed any of our politicians, be entering into a

:16:50.:16:55.

period a boat serious debate on the future of Scotland, very high level

:16:55.:17:00.

stuff. -- a period of serious debate. That is for everyone else,

:17:00.:17:04.

but the politician himself, the one who is speaking, launches into her

:17:04.:17:09.

per bully because he does not know what else to do. -- plunges into

:17:09.:17:15.

hyperbole. We have very poor speakers in this country. They

:17:15.:17:19.

tried to make their point more powerfully, without realising these

:17:19.:17:23.

words wash over the Listener because it is like crying wolf.

:17:23.:17:28.

Where is this meltdown? Where is this catastrophe? Is that what you

:17:28.:17:31.

felt about the lot used to work for?

:17:31.:17:36.

George Orwell famously said a our language famously becomes ugly and

:17:36.:17:41.

inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish. The problem is, Scottish

:17:41.:17:45.

politicians never say anything memorable! I think we were going to

:17:45.:17:49.

insult people are used emotive language, satire and wit are the

:17:49.:17:54.

best weapons to use, and that is why people like Katy Grant or

:17:54.:17:59.

myself or other colonists, politicians should leave it to us.

:17:59.:18:04.

-- other columnists. We are the jesters on the side. If they want

:18:04.:18:08.

to be taken seriously by the public at large, I am concerned about how

:18:08.:18:14.

Scottish society will be polarised over the next two years with the

:18:14.:18:21.

referendum. The language is getting more visible, more abusive, and the

:18:21.:18:25.

reason, rational debate we all want is getting lost. I absolutely, and

:18:25.:18:32.

people turn off, they do not listen. His Simon Pia rate it is up to

:18:32.:18:38.

jesters in the media? Vince Cable, when he came up with his Stalin at

:18:38.:18:44.

remark, that did an endless amount of good. Isis bag someone made that

:18:44.:18:50.

up for him, Simon would know better. -- I suspect. Some of the best

:18:50.:18:53.

remarks had been made by politicians who have made... Boris

:18:54.:19:03.

Johnson is quite good. People remember what he says. Neville

:19:03.:19:07.

Chamberlain, he was a modest man with much to be modest about, but

:19:07.:19:17.

nobody comes up with these kinds of things now. Why have we lost that?

:19:17.:19:21.

I don't know. I think politicians don't read enough, they do not have

:19:21.:19:25.

enough of the hinterland, they never use language apart from to

:19:25.:19:31.

make speeches. Simon Pia, there is an issue, there is this debate on

:19:31.:19:36.

independence that both sides, he used the word visceral, there is an

:19:36.:19:40.

element in Labour Party who believe this is not a normal ardent, the

:19:40.:19:45.

SNP is not a normal political party. There is an element of the SNP who

:19:45.:19:49.

think this is a cause, not a policy and a staked their careers on it.

:19:49.:19:57.

It could get very nasty, couldn't it? Yes, I think it is trending

:19:57.:20:03.

already. The current that has operated below the surface of

:20:03.:20:07.

Scottish politics for the past three years is nasty stuff. Some

:20:07.:20:10.

politicians have been distressed by the stuff flung in their direction,

:20:10.:20:15.

a lot of it through social media. Some people would say they are

:20:15.:20:18.

tearing an opinion, which is fair enough. Do you think it will get

:20:18.:20:23.

worse? Yes, I think it will get worse and I think people will not

:20:23.:20:28.

listen. We will have did leave it there. Thank you very much indeed.

:20:28.:20:33.

Very quickly, tomorrow's front pages, it will rain are locked.

:20:33.:20:37.

Perthshire is braced for another Perthshire is braced for another

:20:37.:20:42.

downpour, a picture with sandbags. And in the Guardian, at the Gaza

:20:42.:20:48.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS