06/12/2012 Newsnight Scotland

decision, the better for Syria. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, the

controversy continues over the status of an independent Scotland

in the EU. And, we'll speak to the editor of Scotland's biggest

selling paper, The Scottish Sun, about Leveson and possibility of

different press regulation north and south of the border.

Good evening. How has a letter is that is yet to be sent caused such

ructions? The letter is from the European Commssion to a Lords'

committee and is thought to say that if Scotland votes for

independence it would have to reapply for EU membership. This is

yet another staging post in the long-running debate over an

independent Scotland's place in the It is a subject which probably

excites a few outside the political bubble, but a could be a vital

debate over independence. Will an independent Scotland have to

reapply to join the European Union? The debate is a hard one, nobody

believes that Scotland would not be welcome, but it is rather the terms

they would be admitted on. That seems like something for the

anoraks, but it could have a real impact on everyday life. The debate

has resurfaced after this newspaper report. They claimed that the

European Commission had confirmed to weigh House of loads committee

that an independent Scotland would have to reapply for membership. It

turns out that latter has been written, but not cent. The first

minister is angry. Scottish people want to know where that came from.

Were they duped by anti- independence people. Was the

commission at fault? We know that that story is not correct. It is of

interest. There will be a lot of scaremongering to come. The BBC's

Europe Editor has spoken to officials at the European

Commission. The Commission is making it absolutely clear that

Scotland would have to reapply for membership. There would be a

negotiation, but that would only come after it became clear what the

relationship between Edinburgh and London was. If Scotland had to

reapply, the terms may be very different. Some Unionists claimed

that could mean that Scotland may have to join the euro, even if the

UK cat the pound. Maybe even border controls at Redknapp, as the UK

would not be signed up. -- Gretna. Scotland would have to apply for

membership, and we need a cod terms and conditions. The SNP's position

is that an independent Scotland would be negotiating its terms from

within the EU. They could be -- they could be talks over things

like how many MEPs Scollan we have. There would be no suggestions of

border posts. A have you clarify the position? I think it has been

clarified. The first minister had to make a statement clarifying

whether the Scottish government had sought legal advice from the EU

over the issue. Some claim the whole debate over independents

risks becoming a series of assertions, reassuring noises from

nationalists, worst-case scenarios from Unionists. What is missing is

hard fact that everyone can accept. There is another factor in the

debate, the European Commission will not be commenting on

Scotland's situation, it will only explain in general terms as what

could -- what could happen. This could apply to Catalonia, where the

political situation is different to Scotland. Whatever the theoretical

position, much would no doubt depend on the political reality,

especially the relationship between Edinburgh and London. If it was an

acrimonious or divorce, Brussels would not want to be seen as the

bad guy. I'm joined now from Edinburgh by

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock - that's the former Labour MP and MSP George

Foulkes to you. And by the SNP MEP Alyn Smith who is dressed as a

penguin because he has come straight from an awards ceremony.

thought he was going to turn up in his traditional Scottish! I am

coming straight from an awards ceremony. It is great to see the

industry doing well. You could have raised the tone! Some people

believe we sit in the chamber in them all the time. I wore it when I

was introduced, I can't remember if I have warned that much since then.

Your letter, which you are expected to get, what is the status of it?

am not expecting to get any letter, because I am not on the economic

affairs committee. The economic affairs committee has Britain to

one man -- written to Barroso, I understand that that has gone

through. Have you know what the latter says? Because I read the

papers. You are saying you got it from the House of Lords, and they

did not get it. When I was in Brussels yesterday, I had a

briefing, and informal off the record briefing, and they confirmed

what the British government have confirmed, in the very unlikely

event of a Yes vote, what would happen, they would be negotiations,

Scotland would be part of the United Kingdom until there was a

deal for separation, and there would be legislation to create a

separate state in Parliament, and Scotland will become a separate

state, and they will have to apply for membership. They will be

entitled to a member of a council, a commissioner, all the existing

members have to consider whether they want that to happen. It is not

just George Foulkes saying this, the Scotsman tomorrow says that

David Martin has written to Barroso, and asks him if he stands by the

comments which he made before, and Barroso has replied saying, yes he

does. Why not just accept that, rather than trying to claim that

the position is different? This is where we are. We are here because

of a story that has not really happened, the latter has not been

sent. I had said before this programme, the treaties are silent,

there is no way for us to leave. He is right, we have a boat, the day

after the boat, negotiations start with London and Edinburgh. -- we

have a vote, the day after the vote. They will take due notice of the

discussions, they run parallel, and then an independent state takes

place within the EU and the UK. That does not square with what

Barroso has said about Scotland having to reapply. What you say is

not the same thing? This is where different words are being used in

different ways by different people, it is like the Brady Doogue of

Scottish politics. We're part of the EU territory, we are hosting

students from the EU, that takes place concurrently with the UK

negotiations. The importance of the Edinburgh agreement has been missed.

A negotiated outcome will be respected, and the commission will

do exactly what the commission always does, which is take a

pragmatic approach, saying, we don't want to lose you, you want to

stay, in exactly the same way as East German reunification was

impossible, but their way was found. -- but a way was found. That sounds

pretty reasonable, what do you think is wrong with that analysis?

He is right, until the last thing. Once it is a separate state, it is

something of that is entitled to its own council member, its own

commissioner, and it has to apply. It is up to the existing members,

and the United Kingdom will be one of those members, to decide the

terms, and the terms in which they will join. Alex Salmond is to -- is

deliberately trying to make this into an issue of some uncertainty.

He pretended to have legal advice. Let's forget about that. I want to

try and pin this down. You are saying that you agree with Alan

Smith, but the distinction between the two of you is that you say no

matter what the result is, at some point, once Scollan became

independent, they will have to reapply. -- won Scotland. Why is

that wrong? The significance of the Edinburgh agreement, we have a

watertight agreement, that gives us a process. There is nothing in that

which says that the European Union has to follow. That lays down part

of it. There is nothing in it which says Scotland would not have to

reapply for membership of the you? In does commit both governments

into implementing the Willoughby Scottish people. It will be an

aspiring member states, the European Commission will run

negotiations concurrently. That is not the way things will work. The

Commission has always loved that this stuff with the real politics,

they they want to leave us, we don't want to leave -- they don't

want to lose us, we don't want to live. This is one of Alex Salmon's

ploys. He wants to make the people of Scotland believe that the we

separate, nothing will change. We will still be part of the European

Union, we will still have the Queen, all of that kind of thing. That is

to try and comfort people. The yes campaign is falling apart. I want

to pin this down, what difference does it make whether you are right

or Alan Smith is right? Clearly if Scotland is in or out, they can't

say they're not going to have common fishing policies, but where

is the difference between what you are saying? There is a crucial

difference, a new member is applying, it has to be agreed by

the council, and any one state could beat them it. -- could veto.

Spain could be -- beat the Met, because they don't want to lose

Catalonia. There has been talk of Cyprus doing this as well. Clearly

the Spanish government would not be keen on this. We would not set a

precedent, international law is clear. There is no precedent, the

Spanish Foreign Minister has made very clear that this is not a

Now from political discord to cross-party consensus. The party

leaders at Holyrood met today to discuss the Scottish response to

Lord Justice Leveson's report. They may not be in total concord, but

they did at least agreed to set up an expert group to study how the

recommendations of the Leveson report might apply in Scotland. One

report, one problem and two responses. This week the Prime

Minister met with newspaper editors and asked them to come up with a

plan for regulation which would not require legislation. He asked civil

servants to draft a lob based on the Leveson report. They fear -- if

they fail to come up with a plan to satisfy the government, statutory

legislation might be imposed. The First Minister has already said

here that he is inclined to legislate along the Irish model.

Today's meeting agreed to have someone else to do think about it

on their behalf. The Tories will decide whether to support the

proposals within the next 24 hours. These are people who will tell us

how we can implement Leveson's central suggestion of us that

Chitty underpinning of the self- regulatory Press. Leveson is an

English judge and he says himself, this might not be applicable to

Scotland. We need experts to tell us how we would do it in Scotland

if we decide to go way ahead with it. The expert group will be led by

a current or former judge and all parties who signed up to it will be

able to suggest who they would like to hear analysis from.

preference is for a UK wide body. The case of a separate Scottish

body has not been made. A lot of people will be worried that

something could be circumvented if there is a different regime in the

rest of the United Kingdom. We have to respond to the victims. We feel

that the press was out of control. We need to reassure everyone that

freedom of speech and freedom of the press is not under threat.

opposition may back a UK wide solution, but ultimately it is up

to the Scottish government. If Alex Salmond gets his way, newspapers

may be subject to different rules north and south of the border. One

suggestion is for a Press Council to cover the whole of the UK but

with statutory backing in Scotland. I am joined now by Andy Harries,

who is the editor of Scotland's biggest selling paper - the

Scottish Sun. I presume you agree with the

Murdoch newspapers in London, that there should be no statutory body?

Absolutely, my dear is we could end up with a two-speed system. I think

that would be a worrying development for the presence

Scotland. What is your argument? The News of the World committed

some of the worst things which were investigated. Have you got a bit of

a nerve to then say we do not want statutory legislation but continue

as we did before? I think the Leveson report was critical of many

newspapers. The speed with which different newspapers, like the

Guardian, the Sun and the Daily Mail this week, have moved to

support 40 of the recommendations shows a willingness to react to

this very critical report. Critically, if we end up in a

legislated position, that is what would be most worrying in the

situation. I fear that Alex Salmond's headlong rush for

statutory underpinning, you either believe NFT press or you do not.

Their argument is that in the Irish system or in the system that Lord

Leveson is arguing for, you do not have any statutory control, it just

becomes an issue if you have a Press Council and you're not a

member of it, and you take part in defamation proceedings, it can be

held against you in court. Why do you object to that? The Irish model

was set up before there was any statutory underpinning. A therefore

why would you object to that? As far as I understand, the son is a

member of the press incarnates Commission here and in Ireland. --

Press Complaints Commission. Whether this is a piece of

legislation which forms a body or says this body gets Reds --

recognise, the minutes that is on the statute books it is a slippery

slope. If we move to this situation where we have a long lack, it is

easy for a parliament to go back. - - along mac. If they were not

getting the press they wanted, they could end up with the situation

were Parliament says we do not like what they're doing, let us make a

stronger, let has increased the fines. Once you have it in statute,

it is a slippery slope. I their practical problems? One thing

suggested tonight is that we might end up with the system weather is

one Press Complaints Commission to replace existing one, which is

backed by statute in Scotland but not in England. Is that viable?

cannot see how that would work in practical terms. So many papers in

England produced editions here and the Scottish papers produced

editions which are published in England. You could imagine the

system, where in Scotland's the membership of the Press Council are

whatever it is called, would be recognised by the courts as we have

discussed, even although that was not the case in England? I do not

see... If it presses moving quickly in Fleet Street to trying implement

as much as Leveson as possible without a statutory composition of

the body, I cannot see the necessity for having it in Scotland.

It had Scottish representation on the council and the call committee.

If we could come up with a body which satisfied Westminster, why

should we need a separate one in Scotland? But it is about politics.

The SNP want a legislative body. Labour do not want a separate

system in Scotland but they do back statutory controls across the UK

and so do the Liberal Democrats. If you look at Holyrood, they could

easily come up with the compromise, whatever was, you would not want it

to? Well there is only been at one weeks since the publication of the

report. We are moved quickly since then and I think we need to take

more time about things. We need to leave it there.

A quick look at their front pages. The EU chief confirms the position

on states should be split. The Daily Mail says business chiefs

fear the break-up of Britain. They Herald says the Kirk is under

fire as court officers disrupt prayers. -- they Herald.

That's it for now. Goodbye. Good evening. It will be a cold

Good evening. It will be a cold start to the day with some frost

and icy patches around. There will be some rain and snow as well in

East Anglia and the far south-east. His days a for Scotland and eastern

England. There will be a scattering of showers throughout the day. --

its dazed and grey. It will feel cold out there. Some sunshine for

work eastern counties and in the south-west. With that bees from the

north, it will feel cold despite the sunshine. -- that these. It

should be a drier afternoon in Northern Ireland. Plenty of

sunshine. Feeling cold in the breeze. Sunshine for the West of

Scotland but it will be chilly. Thicker cloud in the north-east of

Scotland. Wintry showers over the hills. The northern half of the UK

will see a fair amount of cloud with rain crossing Scotland.

Further south, after a cold start to Saturday, there will be a lot of