10/12/2012 Newsnight Scotland


10/12/2012

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its new Islamist Masters. The President has given these opponents

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new purpose. On Newsnight Scotland, the

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President of the European Commission celebrates a Nobel prize

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by ensuring a new outbreak of hostilities between the yes and no

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camps in the Scottish referendum. Jose Manuel Barroso says he's not

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talking about Scotland in particular, but that any newly

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independent nation would need to renegotiate its EU membership. Is

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he entitled to that view, and does it matter?

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Good evening. The President of the European Commission got his hands

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today on a Nobel Prize for keeping the peace across the continent. But

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clearly not for keeping the political peace here in Scotland.

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Barroso hit the headlines here, by telling the BBC that any

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hypothetical newly independent country would have to renegotiate

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membership of the European Union. Our expert panel will discuss the

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implications of today's intervention, but first our

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correspondent, Jamie McIvor reports. He has been looking at different

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The European Union, winner of the Nobel Prize for RPGs. -- piece. It

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has helped to bring lasting peace to Europe after two world wars. The

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latest comments from the President of the European Commission will

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hardly bring peace to Scotland. one part of the country, and I am

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not referring to any specific country, wants to become an

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independent state, of course as an independent state it has to apply

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for EU membership. That is obvious. It has to renegotiate its terms?

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Yes. Up is it renegotiating from inside as a member of the European

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Union or effectively from outside? We are a union of states are left

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there is the new state, of course that state has to apply for

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membership and negotiate conditions. I appreciate you're not talking

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about specifics but say at a country like Scotland chooses

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independence, it is like a new state making an app? It has to

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negotiate with the European Union as a new state will stuck what

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about the rest of the country at? Does it have to renegotiate?

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principle, at no. Needless to say, it is not as simple as that. Jose

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Manuel Barroso is the president of the European Commission but he is

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not a political president of Europe. The European Commission is the

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Executive body of the European Union. More than a civil service

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but not elected. The Council of Ministers consists of

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representatives of each of elected governments. In theory, that

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represents all the citizens of the European Union. Up in any case,

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Jose Manuel Barroso made clear he was not talking explicitly about

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Scotland but making a general statement about what could happen

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if part of any member state became independent. It would be equally

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applicable to Catalonia. There will now be discussions to see what

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impact independence would have on Scotland's membership of the year

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pean Union. We do not agree that Scotland would have to reapply for

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European membership. There is no reason to it Takeaway European

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citizenship from a country on a people just because the exercise

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their democratic right to self- determination. The SNP's argument

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is that an independent Scotland would be negotiating its position

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from within the European Union. There would then detox about the

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details of Scotland odd mac membership while still within the

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UK. This would cover things like the Budget and the number of

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political representatives in the European Union. The SNP has also

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argued Scotland would inherit all of the European opt-outs. Unionists

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would claim that his near assertion. -- me her assertion. There would

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have to be months of discussion about whether to join the euro or

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rabbit border patrol. This would be very damaging for Scotland.

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Scottish membership of the European Union is important to the modern

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SNP. Even in the 1980s, the party's policy was to collect of what was

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then the EC. -- EEC. By the 1990s, the mantra was Scotland in Europe.

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In a sense, today's comments do not move the debate on to new territory.

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It simply means Jose Manuel Barroso was more explicit on-camera than

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before. One risk to the SNP is that this intervention could undermine

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attempts to reassure voters of what he's vote for independence would

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mean. A place in Europe may not be taken for granted.

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I'm joined now by Alan Trench, of the Constitution Unit at UCL, who's

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in London. Here, we have Professor Drew Scott, of Edinburgh

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University's Europa Institute, and Professor John Curtice of

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Strathclyde University. Thank you all for joining us. The

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position is pretty Clare - at any new independent country would have

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to apply to join the European Union. Se correct to say that?

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institution that was not mentioned in your package was the court. In

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the final instance, given his comments, this would find its way

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to the European Court of Justice and it would be for them to make a

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ruling on this. Jose Manuel Barroso does not have the power to make

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this ruling. He will no doubt advise member states but what I

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find peculiar is that we all accept there is no provision in the EU

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treaty for this. Therefore there is no lot and it sticks me that he is

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making the law as he goes a long and I think that is a debatable way

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to proceed. Nothing like this has happened before so to some extent

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he is having to interpret existing treaties. This is difficult ground

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and I would encourage him to exercise more caution. There is an

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interesting observation to be made about Germany. This was a conundrum

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facing the European Union. Up we know that Margaret thatcher was

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very much against this. The European Union it found a way

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through this and absurd the requirements of the TT that the

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principal loss serious co-operation is that here too. A -- treaty. I

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think he is overstepping his competence. Do you agree with that?

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I would not say he is overstepping his competence but it is the Duke

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of the Commission President. He appears to be applying principles

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of international lock in what is a very tangled legal situation.

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you think he has got it right? There is some dubiety about it. Do

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you think he has got it wrong or are things just muddled? Things are

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very muddled. There are lots of political pressures on the

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Parliament because it is dealing with the huge crisis in the

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eurozone. There is also talk immediate and pressing matters of

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the situation in Catalonia's which seems much more fevered and more

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pressing than in the UK will stuck up -- the UK. I have no doubt the

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Spanish government will be explaining its concerns very

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directly to the commission and two other members of the council. A

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much more messy situation there up where Catalonia up is moving

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towards some kind of referendum. To what extent it is the president

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speaking really about Catalonia a? He is talking about the situation

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in the abstract that the commission would really rather not face, I

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expect. The situation with places like Catalonia at is that it is

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particularly difficult. I suspect that for Scotland, these are issues

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that would be resolved in the process of negotiation but those

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negotiations can only take place after their referendum assuming

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there was a vote for independence. This cannot be cut and dried before

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their referendum. The other point that Jose Manuel Barroso makes is

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that Scotland would in effect be on the outside in the effect of a...

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Of yes in the referendum. I do not accept that at all. The only

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provisions in the treaty are principles relating to the general

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principles of democracy and self- determination. It seems to be a

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rather rot policy to take it for a country within its jurisdiction. If

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it is chosen to use this democratic right that we would then be

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expelled from the European Union, I would find that rather strange.

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Even in an article 50, which is where the country wishes to

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withdraw, which as far as I am aware Scotland do not want to, but

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if there is withdrawal there is provision in the European Union

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that it should seek in a satisfactory situation for the

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continuing relationship with this country. Jose Manuel Barroso seems

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to be looking at immediate expulsion. I am released -- nearly

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questioning the legal basis of what he is saying. He is entitled to his

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opinion but it would be very nice to see the legal reasoning that

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contradicts the arguments others have made. That it issue about the

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rest of the UK as well, because his decision is that the rest of the UK

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would remain but Scotland would not. Even in the House of Commons, there

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paper has declared there are three possible situations, where either

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both are out or the UK is in and Scotland are out, but there is

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agreement that this is a matter of some debate. His assumptions need

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to be tested. It is a peculiar position for the president who

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stated two months ago that the commission would not speak directly

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on any member state's position unless the asked to, but it seems

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He jumped in with both feet and it stirs up the debate about Scottish

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independence immensely because it creates tremendous pressure now on

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the Scottish government to rebut this claim. It certainly does. Both

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my colleagues have said the legal position is not clear. Even if you

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accept that conclusion, that in itself is enough to cause

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difficulties for the SNP because the vision of independence that the

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SNP have offered Scotland is a vision of independence in Europe

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and it has promoted that on the basis that there is no doubt on

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Scotland's continued membership of the EU. We can argue about the

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position, but the the fact that there is a degree of uncertainty

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has been cast means that this is an argument they are happy to pursue

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because, from their perspective, anything that appears to cast doubt

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on the credibility of the arguments that the SNP have been promoting

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are for them hoping to say, if Mr Salmond and Mr Sergei and have not

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quite got it right on the European Union and it depends on

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negotiations, can you necessarily accept what the other things are?

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It is all adding to this perspective of trying to come

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across as independence uncertain. The problem for the SNP is not the

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substance of the matter, it is a questioning and casting doubt on

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whether or not they have necessarily told all the truth and

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laid out all the arguments. That being the case, we heard Alistair

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Darling talking about how there would be a drawn-out negotiation,

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about membership of the Euro potentially, the border controls

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and the like. In your view, do you think these issues are even

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relevant at this point or are they genuine issues to discuss? I think

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they are highly relevant, that they are too many unknowns. We really

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don't know what we are talking about and that is the problem with

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having a referendum that is supposed to be clear, final and

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decisive about Scottish independence when so much is

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necessarily going to be resolved in the other side of referendum in

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those no with the UK and other parties including the you, if there

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were to be a vote in favour of independence. That makes it

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terribly complicated. A lot will then depend on how strong the hand

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of a potential independent Scottish government might be. In those

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negotiations and how it decides to play that hand, for example, is it

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willing to trade other issues for support from the UK forces during

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Scottish membership from day one? Drew Scott, as far as this rout

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today is concerned, Nicholas sturgeon has apparently written to

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their commission and tried to open some discussions with Mr Barroso,

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can she expect a reply from him? For I hope so. The statements that

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President Barroso has been making deserve some probing and discussion

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and I am very delighted that that mood has been made. Is he obliged

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to have a discussion? President Barroso would probably say the

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European Commission and reminds us about solidarity and the budget,

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but this is actually about the citizens of Europe. I think he has

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a moral and legal of that -- obligation to enter in discussion

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to ensure that if this comes to pass, these types of uncertainties,

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which we know can be eliminated or heavily resolved ahead of 2014 or

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2016. So I think there is time for discussions to be entered into. I

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think there is a certain moral obligation, if not legal

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requirement, on the President of the commission he has now become

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such a player to put forward a detailed scenario that he would

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expect to be followed from his side in the event of a yes vote. I don't

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think it is credible to say Scotland will cease to be a member

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of the year and the enormous complexities that would give rise

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to with trade, citizens of other EU member states and their rights, it

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is not a credible position he is taking at the moment. That requires

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discussion. In the process I hope uncertainties on both sides will

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become clear. These are the uncertainties that Alex Salmond had

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hoped to avoid, by saying that he had legal advice saying we were a

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shoe in. My view is that Mr Salmond never indicated he had legal advice.

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If he had, he would have contravened the ministerial code. A

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couple of observations, one is the SNP's insistence on the idea of

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independence in Europe was crafted at a time when the EU was a more

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popular institution in Scotland and the UK than it is now. To that

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extent we can argue how far the substance of this issue as opposed

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to the credibility of their SNP will matter. It is not entirely

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clear that voting for the union is a guaranteed way of staying in the

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Union. The second observation is, remember the idea of having a

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single referendum on the subject of independence and that we would have

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the referendum, the negotiations, one in which the SNP has always

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insisted. We are seeing some of the disadvantages of from the

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nationalist point of view as opposed to the alternative

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referendum in advance of negotiations and another one

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afterwards. It means that uncertainty questions may played

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the SNP. They cannot simply say we will hold a negotiation and decide

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at the end of whether it is acceptable. You have looked at

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Spain quite obviously there and they are looking to reassess their

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relationship with Spain itself and indeed with the EU. What John was

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saying is quite right, isn't it? Well, there are many uncertainties

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everywhere. The Catalonian situation is very different from

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that in Scotland. If there is no agreement about whether there will

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be a referendum or consultation, which is a term now being used.

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What form that might take and he would call it. One thing that has

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been good about the way things have developed in the UK is that we have

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agreed ground-rules for the way these formal constitutional debate

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is to take place. There we must leave it. Gentlemen, thank you very

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much. Just before we go, a look at tomorrow's front pages. No

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surprises that the Herald Leeds on this. Sturgeon calls for talks on

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you after Barroso rebuff. The Scotsman, new setback for SNP. The

:20:48.:20:53.

Times, NHS to poor patients out of private care homes.

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