Browse content similar to 10/12/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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its new Islamist Masters. The President has given these opponents | :00:02. | :00:08. | |
new purpose. On Newsnight Scotland, the | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
President of the European Commission celebrates a Nobel prize | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
by ensuring a new outbreak of hostilities between the yes and no | :00:13. | :00:20. | |
camps in the Scottish referendum. Jose Manuel Barroso says he's not | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
talking about Scotland in particular, but that any newly | :00:23. | :00:29. | |
independent nation would need to renegotiate its EU membership. Is | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
he entitled to that view, and does it matter? | :00:33. | :00:41. | |
Good evening. The President of the European Commission got his hands | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
today on a Nobel Prize for keeping the peace across the continent. But | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
clearly not for keeping the political peace here in Scotland. | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
Barroso hit the headlines here, by telling the BBC that any | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
hypothetical newly independent country would have to renegotiate | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
membership of the European Union. Our expert panel will discuss the | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
implications of today's intervention, but first our | :00:59. | :01:09. | |
:01:09. | :01:10. | ||
correspondent, Jamie McIvor reports. He has been looking at different | :01:10. | :01:20. | |
:01:20. | :01:44. | ||
The European Union, winner of the Nobel Prize for RPGs. -- piece. It | :01:44. | :01:53. | |
has helped to bring lasting peace to Europe after two world wars. The | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
latest comments from the President of the European Commission will | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
hardly bring peace to Scotland. one part of the country, and I am | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
not referring to any specific country, wants to become an | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
independent state, of course as an independent state it has to apply | :02:12. | :02:18. | |
for EU membership. That is obvious. It has to renegotiate its terms? | :02:18. | :02:24. | |
Yes. Up is it renegotiating from inside as a member of the European | :02:24. | :02:31. | |
Union or effectively from outside? We are a union of states are left | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
there is the new state, of course that state has to apply for | :02:36. | :02:42. | |
membership and negotiate conditions. I appreciate you're not talking | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
about specifics but say at a country like Scotland chooses | :02:46. | :02:55. | |
independence, it is like a new state making an app? It has to | :02:55. | :03:02. | |
negotiate with the European Union as a new state will stuck what | :03:02. | :03:09. | |
about the rest of the country at? Does it have to renegotiate? | :03:09. | :03:18. | |
principle, at no. Needless to say, it is not as simple as that. Jose | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
Manuel Barroso is the president of the European Commission but he is | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
not a political president of Europe. The European Commission is the | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
Executive body of the European Union. More than a civil service | :03:31. | :03:37. | |
but not elected. The Council of Ministers consists of | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
representatives of each of elected governments. In theory, that | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
represents all the citizens of the European Union. Up in any case, | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
Jose Manuel Barroso made clear he was not talking explicitly about | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
Scotland but making a general statement about what could happen | :03:56. | :04:04. | |
if part of any member state became independent. It would be equally | :04:04. | :04:12. | |
applicable to Catalonia. There will now be discussions to see what | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
impact independence would have on Scotland's membership of the year | :04:16. | :04:22. | |
pean Union. We do not agree that Scotland would have to reapply for | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
European membership. There is no reason to it Takeaway European | :04:28. | :04:34. | |
citizenship from a country on a people just because the exercise | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
their democratic right to self- determination. The SNP's argument | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
is that an independent Scotland would be negotiating its position | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
from within the European Union. There would then detox about the | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
details of Scotland odd mac membership while still within the | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
UK. This would cover things like the Budget and the number of | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
political representatives in the European Union. The SNP has also | :05:03. | :05:09. | |
argued Scotland would inherit all of the European opt-outs. Unionists | :05:09. | :05:17. | |
would claim that his near assertion. -- me her assertion. There would | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
have to be months of discussion about whether to join the euro or | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
rabbit border patrol. This would be very damaging for Scotland. | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
Scottish membership of the European Union is important to the modern | :05:33. | :05:40. | |
SNP. Even in the 1980s, the party's policy was to collect of what was | :05:40. | :05:50. | |
:05:50. | :05:55. | ||
then the EC. -- EEC. By the 1990s, the mantra was Scotland in Europe. | :05:55. | :06:02. | |
In a sense, today's comments do not move the debate on to new territory. | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
It simply means Jose Manuel Barroso was more explicit on-camera than | :06:06. | :06:13. | |
before. One risk to the SNP is that this intervention could undermine | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
attempts to reassure voters of what he's vote for independence would | :06:19. | :06:28. | |
mean. A place in Europe may not be taken for granted. | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
I'm joined now by Alan Trench, of the Constitution Unit at UCL, who's | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
in London. Here, we have Professor Drew Scott, of Edinburgh | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
University's Europa Institute, and Professor John Curtice of | :06:37. | :06:46. | |
Strathclyde University. Thank you all for joining us. The | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
position is pretty Clare - at any new independent country would have | :06:51. | :06:58. | |
to apply to join the European Union. Se correct to say that? | :06:58. | :07:07. | |
institution that was not mentioned in your package was the court. In | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
the final instance, given his comments, this would find its way | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
to the European Court of Justice and it would be for them to make a | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
ruling on this. Jose Manuel Barroso does not have the power to make | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
this ruling. He will no doubt advise member states but what I | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
find peculiar is that we all accept there is no provision in the EU | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
treaty for this. Therefore there is no lot and it sticks me that he is | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
making the law as he goes a long and I think that is a debatable way | :07:41. | :07:48. | |
to proceed. Nothing like this has happened before so to some extent | :07:48. | :07:55. | |
he is having to interpret existing treaties. This is difficult ground | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
and I would encourage him to exercise more caution. There is an | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
interesting observation to be made about Germany. This was a conundrum | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
facing the European Union. Up we know that Margaret thatcher was | :08:09. | :08:16. | |
very much against this. The European Union it found a way | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
through this and absurd the requirements of the TT that the | :08:21. | :08:29. | |
principal loss serious co-operation is that here too. A -- treaty. I | :08:29. | :08:36. | |
think he is overstepping his competence. Do you agree with that? | :08:36. | :08:42. | |
I would not say he is overstepping his competence but it is the Duke | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
of the Commission President. He appears to be applying principles | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
of international lock in what is a very tangled legal situation. | :08:53. | :09:00. | |
you think he has got it right? There is some dubiety about it. Do | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
you think he has got it wrong or are things just muddled? Things are | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
very muddled. There are lots of political pressures on the | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
Parliament because it is dealing with the huge crisis in the | :09:13. | :09:23. | |
eurozone. There is also talk immediate and pressing matters of | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
the situation in Catalonia's which seems much more fevered and more | :09:28. | :09:36. | |
pressing than in the UK will stuck up -- the UK. I have no doubt the | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
Spanish government will be explaining its concerns very | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
directly to the commission and two other members of the council. A | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
much more messy situation there up where Catalonia up is moving | :09:50. | :10:00. | |
towards some kind of referendum. To what extent it is the president | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
speaking really about Catalonia a? He is talking about the situation | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
in the abstract that the commission would really rather not face, I | :10:10. | :10:19. | |
expect. The situation with places like Catalonia at is that it is | :10:19. | :10:26. | |
particularly difficult. I suspect that for Scotland, these are issues | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
that would be resolved in the process of negotiation but those | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
negotiations can only take place after their referendum assuming | :10:34. | :10:42. | |
there was a vote for independence. This cannot be cut and dried before | :10:42. | :10:50. | |
their referendum. The other point that Jose Manuel Barroso makes is | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
that Scotland would in effect be on the outside in the effect of a... | :10:55. | :11:05. | |
:11:05. | :11:05. | ||
Of yes in the referendum. I do not accept that at all. The only | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
provisions in the treaty are principles relating to the general | :11:11. | :11:17. | |
principles of democracy and self- determination. It seems to be a | :11:17. | :11:26. | |
rather rot policy to take it for a country within its jurisdiction. If | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
it is chosen to use this democratic right that we would then be | :11:30. | :11:37. | |
expelled from the European Union, I would find that rather strange. | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
Even in an article 50, which is where the country wishes to | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
withdraw, which as far as I am aware Scotland do not want to, but | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
if there is withdrawal there is provision in the European Union | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
that it should seek in a satisfactory situation for the | :11:53. | :12:00. | |
continuing relationship with this country. Jose Manuel Barroso seems | :12:00. | :12:07. | |
to be looking at immediate expulsion. I am released -- nearly | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
questioning the legal basis of what he is saying. He is entitled to his | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
opinion but it would be very nice to see the legal reasoning that | :12:16. | :12:23. | |
contradicts the arguments others have made. That it issue about the | :12:23. | :12:30. | |
rest of the UK as well, because his decision is that the rest of the UK | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
would remain but Scotland would not. Even in the House of Commons, there | :12:36. | :12:42. | |
paper has declared there are three possible situations, where either | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
both are out or the UK is in and Scotland are out, but there is | :12:46. | :12:53. | |
agreement that this is a matter of some debate. His assumptions need | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
to be tested. It is a peculiar position for the president who | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
stated two months ago that the commission would not speak directly | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
on any member state's position unless the asked to, but it seems | :13:07. | :13:17. | |
:13:17. | :13:18. | ||
He jumped in with both feet and it stirs up the debate about Scottish | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
independence immensely because it creates tremendous pressure now on | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
the Scottish government to rebut this claim. It certainly does. Both | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
my colleagues have said the legal position is not clear. Even if you | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
accept that conclusion, that in itself is enough to cause | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
difficulties for the SNP because the vision of independence that the | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
SNP have offered Scotland is a vision of independence in Europe | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
and it has promoted that on the basis that there is no doubt on | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
Scotland's continued membership of the EU. We can argue about the | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
position, but the the fact that there is a degree of uncertainty | :13:58. | :14:05. | |
has been cast means that this is an argument they are happy to pursue | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
because, from their perspective, anything that appears to cast doubt | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
on the credibility of the arguments that the SNP have been promoting | :14:14. | :14:23. | |
are for them hoping to say, if Mr Salmond and Mr Sergei and have not | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
quite got it right on the European Union and it depends on | :14:28. | :14:36. | |
negotiations, can you necessarily accept what the other things are? | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
It is all adding to this perspective of trying to come | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
across as independence uncertain. The problem for the SNP is not the | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
substance of the matter, it is a questioning and casting doubt on | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
whether or not they have necessarily told all the truth and | :14:54. | :15:00. | |
laid out all the arguments. That being the case, we heard Alistair | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
Darling talking about how there would be a drawn-out negotiation, | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
about membership of the Euro potentially, the border controls | :15:09. | :15:15. | |
and the like. In your view, do you think these issues are even | :15:15. | :15:21. | |
relevant at this point or are they genuine issues to discuss? I think | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
they are highly relevant, that they are too many unknowns. We really | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
don't know what we are talking about and that is the problem with | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
having a referendum that is supposed to be clear, final and | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
decisive about Scottish independence when so much is | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
necessarily going to be resolved in the other side of referendum in | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
those no with the UK and other parties including the you, if there | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
were to be a vote in favour of independence. That makes it | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
terribly complicated. A lot will then depend on how strong the hand | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
of a potential independent Scottish government might be. In those | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
negotiations and how it decides to play that hand, for example, is it | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
willing to trade other issues for support from the UK forces during | :16:11. | :16:18. | |
Scottish membership from day one? Drew Scott, as far as this rout | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
today is concerned, Nicholas sturgeon has apparently written to | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
their commission and tried to open some discussions with Mr Barroso, | :16:28. | :16:35. | |
can she expect a reply from him? For I hope so. The statements that | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
President Barroso has been making deserve some probing and discussion | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
and I am very delighted that that mood has been made. Is he obliged | :16:44. | :16:53. | |
to have a discussion? President Barroso would probably say the | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
European Commission and reminds us about solidarity and the budget, | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
but this is actually about the citizens of Europe. I think he has | :17:01. | :17:08. | |
a moral and legal of that -- obligation to enter in discussion | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
to ensure that if this comes to pass, these types of uncertainties, | :17:13. | :17:21. | |
which we know can be eliminated or heavily resolved ahead of 2014 or | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
2016. So I think there is time for discussions to be entered into. I | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
think there is a certain moral obligation, if not legal | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
requirement, on the President of the commission he has now become | :17:34. | :17:39. | |
such a player to put forward a detailed scenario that he would | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
expect to be followed from his side in the event of a yes vote. I don't | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
think it is credible to say Scotland will cease to be a member | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
of the year and the enormous complexities that would give rise | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
to with trade, citizens of other EU member states and their rights, it | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
is not a credible position he is taking at the moment. That requires | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
discussion. In the process I hope uncertainties on both sides will | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
become clear. These are the uncertainties that Alex Salmond had | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
hoped to avoid, by saying that he had legal advice saying we were a | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
shoe in. My view is that Mr Salmond never indicated he had legal advice. | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
If he had, he would have contravened the ministerial code. A | :18:30. | :18:37. | |
couple of observations, one is the SNP's insistence on the idea of | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
independence in Europe was crafted at a time when the EU was a more | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
popular institution in Scotland and the UK than it is now. To that | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
extent we can argue how far the substance of this issue as opposed | :18:50. | :18:58. | |
to the credibility of their SNP will matter. It is not entirely | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
clear that voting for the union is a guaranteed way of staying in the | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
Union. The second observation is, remember the idea of having a | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
single referendum on the subject of independence and that we would have | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
the referendum, the negotiations, one in which the SNP has always | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
insisted. We are seeing some of the disadvantages of from the | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
nationalist point of view as opposed to the alternative | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
referendum in advance of negotiations and another one | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
afterwards. It means that uncertainty questions may played | :19:31. | :19:37. | |
the SNP. They cannot simply say we will hold a negotiation and decide | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
at the end of whether it is acceptable. You have looked at | :19:42. | :19:49. | |
Spain quite obviously there and they are looking to reassess their | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
relationship with Spain itself and indeed with the EU. What John was | :19:53. | :20:00. | |
saying is quite right, isn't it? Well, there are many uncertainties | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
everywhere. The Catalonian situation is very different from | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
that in Scotland. If there is no agreement about whether there will | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
be a referendum or consultation, which is a term now being used. | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
What form that might take and he would call it. One thing that has | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
been good about the way things have developed in the UK is that we have | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
agreed ground-rules for the way these formal constitutional debate | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
is to take place. There we must leave it. Gentlemen, thank you very | :20:29. | :20:36. | |
much. Just before we go, a look at tomorrow's front pages. No | :20:36. | :20:42. | |
surprises that the Herald Leeds on this. Sturgeon calls for talks on | :20:42. | :20:48. | |
you after Barroso rebuff. The Scotsman, new setback for SNP. The | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
Times, NHS to poor patients out of private care homes. | :20:53. | :21:00. |