11/12/2012 Newsnight Scotland


11/12/2012

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opposed, I am here -- it would be Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, the

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day after the European Commission President Manuel Barroso says

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Scotland would have to apply for membership, Scotland's Finance

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Secretary tells him that he is wrong. Does John Swinney have a

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point? Everyone here seems to agree there would have to be negotiations

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for an independent Scotland to be part of the Union but what would

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they be about exactly? Good evening. Independence in

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Europe was more than a just a slogan for the SNP, it was a

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flagship policy designed to show sceptical electorate that the party

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had a vision of a modern state fulfilling its international

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obligations. Ironic that it is the policy providing its opponents with

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a large stick to hit it with. The Finance Secretary today came to

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explain the Scottish Government's position on EU membership.

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Yes, there is still no harmony on Europe. In the last episode, the

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President of the European Commission said that if any part of

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any member country became independent they would need to

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reapply to join the European Union. He was not talking specifically

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about Scotland but a few people here were rather interested in his

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BBC interview. If one part of a country, I am not referring to any

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specific one, if it wants to become an independent state, of course, as

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an independent state, it has to apply for European membership

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according to the rules. That is obvious. President Barroso made

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similar comments in a letter to a House of Lords committee

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investigating the impact of Scottish independence. Welcome the

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economic affairs committee. And in an appearance that had been

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scheduled for some time, 20 John Swinney was before the committee

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today. When I looked at President Barroso's letter to the committee,

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it struck me that when he is referring to the question of a

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country applying to be a member of the EU, he is very specific that it

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is under Article 49 of the treaty under European Union. When

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President Barroso makes the remark he makes about their part of a

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country ceasing to be part of the territory, there is no treaty

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reference to the remark. I think that is very significant because on

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my reading of the treaty position and I was struck just in preparing

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for the Committee on re-reading some of the advice that was

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produced by the House of Commons library about 12 months ago... They

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make the point in that document that there is no provision within

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the treaty on European Union that provides for the scenario that

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President Barroso has cited in that particular paragraph of his letter.

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This really does seem a rather bizarre. On the one hand, we have a

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considered letter from the president of the European Community

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will after all is the person who will decide with the legal

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structure whether Scotland after independence if it came about was a

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member... On the other hand, you have the feel of the government and

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the Minister that has now admitted that it did not take legal advice

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on whether it would remain a member of the Union and is only belatedly

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doing so. You are saying, or we will still be members. And you are

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not paying any attention to President Barroso's advice. Can

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that position beside St for a second? -- be sustained? Yes. There

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is no foundation in the treaty for the comment that President Barroso

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has made in the letter. Can I just ask, how do you see... Your line

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appears to be that President Barroso does not know what he is

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talking about on this matter and he is wrong when he says that if

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Scotland leaves the UK it also Lucy you. If the voters going to take

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place in 2014 -- it also leaves the EU... How will you established

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before then exactly what the position is. Will you take a legal

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challenge? How or you establish what the facts are so that people

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when they cast their vote know what the position will be? The approach

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we would be taking is the one which the Deputy First Minister set out

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yesterday which is to embark on dialogue with the European

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Commission on this particular question. And we will ensure that

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the dialogue gives us or the European Union a clear

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understanding of the perspective we are bringing to the process. Will

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the Scottish Government put clearly to the Scottish electorate that

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there is a strong possibility that independent Scotland would have to

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reapply for membership of the European Union? And that there may

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be a period before the application process is completed when an

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independent Scotland would do not in fact be a member of the European

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Union? -- would not in fact. Would that be but clearly so that people

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understand the gamble they are taking on continued membership of

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the European Union? To give you a sharp answer, no, we will not do

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that, because we do not take that view. For the question of there

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being a period of Scotland not being in the European Union, I

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think the issue which has to be recognised is at the heart of the,

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as I have made about the paragraph that the Lord chairman highlighted

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to begin with... There is no mechanism to not apply the treaties.

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Therefore, we could not put to the people of Scotland a comment that

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somehow the treaties would not apply because there is no provision

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within the treaty to enable that to happen.

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Who is right and he was wrong? Canny Scottish Government change

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the view of the European Commission? -- can that the

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Scottish Government was upstaging for the next instalment. -- stay

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tuned. We could not persuade a Minister to

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appear tonight but I am joined this evening by Lord McFall. He was part

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of the committee that Quist John Swinney. What did you make about

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the arguments about whether an independent Scotland would be in or

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out of the European Union? This MP said previously that it was cut and

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dried and Phil President Barroso's letter came. I thought it was

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disingenuous of John Swinney today to say there was no basis in the

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treaty because there was a Parliamentary question on the 1st

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March 2042 President Barroso's predecessor -- in March, 2004. He

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said that a country that became independent by secession from its

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main body would be a third country as far as the commission was

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concerned and would have to reapply. When a Parliamentary committee

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sends a letter to the president of the European Commission and that

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takes weeks to come back, I really do not think that it is a rushed

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job. I think there is a little bit of flying kites by John Swinney

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today on this issue. The counter to that is that just because the

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predecessor interpreted things that way in 2004, he cannot point to

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anything in the European treaties which actually provides for the

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situation that Scotland would be insured it vote for independence.

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The difference with Algeria is that the Algerians... There was a colony

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of France and could not get away quick enough. Scotland's attitude

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is not like that. The answer draws on article 299 which further draws

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on Article 256. It is wrong to say there is no basis. I think what the

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situation today is that it is a complex situation. There is not a

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simple proposition. It is not tested as the SNP said it was. The

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letter from Nicola Sturgeon to President Barroso was only sent

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yesterday it asking for negotiations and the chairman I

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think was quite a standard that be -- despite the furore eight the SNP

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did not seem willing to put pen to paper and contact the commission.

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They have made it much more complex and Maddie as a result of their

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resistance -- muddy. Is the bottom line not that it does not matter?

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If people in Scotland did vote for independence, you cannot conceive

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can you that the European Union would somehow want to throw

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It does matter because we have had 19 sessions where a FTSE 100

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companies employing 6500 people in Dumbarton, worth 2 billion of

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revenues, where the chairman says that being part of the you is for

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them to have their headquarters and their manufacturing base... I am

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not disputing it is important for big companies, but you simply can't

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concede, Kenya, given that the people of Scotland have been part

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of the you for 40 years, you can't conceive of a situation where

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should people vote for independence, their European Union would want to

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sling Scotland out. We don't do things with nods and winks here. We

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have got to ensure that we lay out the issues that we de complex the

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issues and have for transparency. You can't just say, because

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Scotland is voting for independence then everything will be OK. That is

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not the way you do business. When you see the opportunity in the rest

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of Europe, Spain, and others, perhaps the EC will be nervous

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about this situation. It requires the SNP to be honest, engaged on a

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serious level with the EC Commission so that they provided

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transparency and simplicity in the debate. It is characterised at the

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moment by uncertainty. What they have done his pile uncertainty on

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uncertainty. Both you and the SNP seemed he agree that there would

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have to be some form of negotiations. You just disagree

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about the status of negotiations. I am curious as to what you think the

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negotiations would be about. They would be about Scotland getting

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into their EU because Barroso's letter makes that very clear.

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make an obvious point, the body of law which you have to sign up to in

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order to become a member of the EU is already northern Scotland, so

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that wouldn't change. In your view, would it be issues like whether or

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not Scotland had to join the Euro? If you are going to be an aspiring

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member then you have to join the Euro. I think that John Swinney put

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himself in a corner today when he said that he could never envisage

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Scotland joining the Euro. It doesn't seem the best approach,

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when you are asking to get into the EU, and you are saying we are not

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going to join your currency, it so I think they put themselves into a

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corner on that issue. Thank you very much for joining us. Listening

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to that in our studio is Iain Macwhirter of the Herald. What do

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you make of this? Are you bored stiff or do you find it

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interesting? What is interesting is how the SNP have such heavy weather

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of this. It is very revealing that this policy, which delivered so

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many political benefits for me ever last 20 years, has now become a

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milestone. I still think it is a tactical problem, but they have not

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begun to address it. They are only listening to themselves and not

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others, particularly what Manual Barroso was saying. He started

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saying this back in September when he came out with a line that a new

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state would have to apply like any other. There seems to be the issue

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with the SNP on this issue, doesn't there, that if they keep repeating

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something over and over again, somehow it will become true. It

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looks like that is coming unstuck. Essentially I understand the

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frustration because this is a bogus argument. Not even Lord McFall was

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prepared to say that Scotland would be thrown out of the EU if it

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became independent. Nobody believes that really is the case, however,

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you know, it has been made to appear as though that is on the

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agenda. It could have been addressed more directly by the SNP.

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Perhaps Nicholas sturgeon will do this later this week. She could

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have hopped on a flight to Brussels last September and proper help

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Barroso on it and ask if he is seriously saying that if Scotland

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becomes independent you would expel 5.2 million citizens of the EU from

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the European Union? De you seriously believe that? There's

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also this issue, are fiercely the SNP strategy is to not frighten the

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horses, but to do you think they are pushing it too far? Vote for

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independence, absolutely no difference whatsoever. Why not just

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say, there has to be a renegotiation. That is a pretty

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radical thing to do, of course all sorts of things will have to change,

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that is what is exciting. Of course negotiations would have to take

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place. Over a number of issues. But an number of these would have to be

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renegotiated by the UK, because the UK would have to renegotiate its

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contribution to the EU budget. It would also have to defend its

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voting strength in the Council of Ministers which the UK will be very

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much reduced. I think, I mean, I am mystified why the SNP has got into

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this mess over it. I think it is because they did not listen to what

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Barroso was saying because he has another agenda. He was trying to

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say to the Spanish government that they you will not encourage so

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session. That is why he has been shifting this way towards

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suggesting that new states would have to apply separately for the EU.

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He knows that is not really the case, that it would be about

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negotiation. No one would get expelled, but the SNP should have

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gone in and questioned that. Do you think the SNP need to fight back in

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and narrow political sense? The No 2 independence people could just

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say here is yet another issue which they had said was not a problem and

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it turns out there are all sorts of questions. How do the SNP fight

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back against that perception? need to refrain it, for a start.

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They are so passive about it as though Scotland would be pleading

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to stay in the EU. The EU would be desperate to keep Scotland due to

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though it renewable energy sources. Similarly with the currency. That

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is the Billy saying that we have to be allowed to keep the pound, I

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think they should say, maybe not. If it is like that, maybe think of

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taking up the Euro. A quick look at the front pages starting with the

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Herald. Lennon reprimand Celtic start over Real IRA tribute is the

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headline. The Celtic player who has been accused by the Football Club.

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The Scotsman, tidings of diskette - - discomfort and woe in Scotland.

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