Browse content similar to 11/12/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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opposed, I am here -- it would be Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, the | 0:00:09 | 0:00:12 | |
day after the European Commission President Manuel Barroso says | 0:00:12 | 0:00:17 | |
Scotland would have to apply for membership, Scotland's Finance | 0:00:17 | 0:00:21 | |
Secretary tells him that he is wrong. Does John Swinney have a | 0:00:21 | 0:00:25 | |
point? Everyone here seems to agree there would have to be negotiations | 0:00:25 | 0:00:28 | |
for an independent Scotland to be part of the Union but what would | 0:00:28 | 0:00:32 | |
they be about exactly? Good evening. Independence in | 0:00:32 | 0:00:36 | |
Europe was more than a just a slogan for the SNP, it was a | 0:00:36 | 0:00:41 | |
flagship policy designed to show sceptical electorate that the party | 0:00:41 | 0:00:45 | |
had a vision of a modern state fulfilling its international | 0:00:45 | 0:00:49 | |
obligations. Ironic that it is the policy providing its opponents with | 0:00:49 | 0:00:54 | |
a large stick to hit it with. The Finance Secretary today came to | 0:00:54 | 0:01:04 | |
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explain the Scottish Government's position on EU membership. | 0:01:07 | 0:01:17 | |
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Yes, there is still no harmony on Europe. In the last episode, the | 0:01:17 | 0:01:21 | |
President of the European Commission said that if any part of | 0:01:21 | 0:01:25 | |
any member country became independent they would need to | 0:01:25 | 0:01:28 | |
reapply to join the European Union. He was not talking specifically | 0:01:28 | 0:01:32 | |
about Scotland but a few people here were rather interested in his | 0:01:32 | 0:01:39 | |
BBC interview. If one part of a country, I am not referring to any | 0:01:39 | 0:01:46 | |
specific one, if it wants to become an independent state, of course, as | 0:01:46 | 0:01:49 | |
an independent state, it has to apply for European membership | 0:01:49 | 0:01:55 | |
according to the rules. That is obvious. President Barroso made | 0:01:55 | 0:01:59 | |
similar comments in a letter to a House of Lords committee | 0:01:59 | 0:02:03 | |
investigating the impact of Scottish independence. Welcome the | 0:02:03 | 0:02:06 | |
economic affairs committee. And in an appearance that had been | 0:02:06 | 0:02:13 | |
scheduled for some time, 20 John Swinney was before the committee | 0:02:13 | 0:02:16 | |
today. When I looked at President Barroso's letter to the committee, | 0:02:16 | 0:02:23 | |
it struck me that when he is referring to the question of a | 0:02:24 | 0:02:29 | |
country applying to be a member of the EU, he is very specific that it | 0:02:29 | 0:02:34 | |
is under Article 49 of the treaty under European Union. When | 0:02:34 | 0:02:40 | |
President Barroso makes the remark he makes about their part of a | 0:02:40 | 0:02:45 | |
country ceasing to be part of the territory, there is no treaty | 0:02:45 | 0:02:50 | |
reference to the remark. I think that is very significant because on | 0:02:50 | 0:02:57 | |
my reading of the treaty position and I was struck just in preparing | 0:02:57 | 0:02:59 | |
for the Committee on re-reading some of the advice that was | 0:02:59 | 0:03:04 | |
produced by the House of Commons library about 12 months ago... They | 0:03:04 | 0:03:11 | |
make the point in that document that there is no provision within | 0:03:11 | 0:03:16 | |
the treaty on European Union that provides for the scenario that | 0:03:16 | 0:03:24 | |
President Barroso has cited in that particular paragraph of his letter. | 0:03:24 | 0:03:29 | |
This really does seem a rather bizarre. On the one hand, we have a | 0:03:29 | 0:03:32 | |
considered letter from the president of the European Community | 0:03:32 | 0:03:37 | |
will after all is the person who will decide with the legal | 0:03:37 | 0:03:40 | |
structure whether Scotland after independence if it came about was a | 0:03:40 | 0:03:45 | |
member... On the other hand, you have the feel of the government and | 0:03:45 | 0:03:48 | |
the Minister that has now admitted that it did not take legal advice | 0:03:48 | 0:03:52 | |
on whether it would remain a member of the Union and is only belatedly | 0:03:52 | 0:03:56 | |
doing so. You are saying, or we will still be members. And you are | 0:03:56 | 0:04:01 | |
not paying any attention to President Barroso's advice. Can | 0:04:01 | 0:04:09 | |
that position beside St for a second? -- be sustained? Yes. There | 0:04:09 | 0:04:13 | |
is no foundation in the treaty for the comment that President Barroso | 0:04:13 | 0:04:21 | |
has made in the letter. Can I just ask, how do you see... Your line | 0:04:21 | 0:04:24 | |
appears to be that President Barroso does not know what he is | 0:04:24 | 0:04:28 | |
talking about on this matter and he is wrong when he says that if | 0:04:28 | 0:04:33 | |
Scotland leaves the UK it also Lucy you. If the voters going to take | 0:04:33 | 0:04:38 | |
place in 2014 -- it also leaves the EU... How will you established | 0:04:38 | 0:04:42 | |
before then exactly what the position is. Will you take a legal | 0:04:42 | 0:04:46 | |
challenge? How or you establish what the facts are so that people | 0:04:46 | 0:04:51 | |
when they cast their vote know what the position will be? The approach | 0:04:51 | 0:04:56 | |
we would be taking is the one which the Deputy First Minister set out | 0:04:57 | 0:05:00 | |
yesterday which is to embark on dialogue with the European | 0:05:00 | 0:05:05 | |
Commission on this particular question. And we will ensure that | 0:05:05 | 0:05:09 | |
the dialogue gives us or the European Union a clear | 0:05:09 | 0:05:13 | |
understanding of the perspective we are bringing to the process. Will | 0:05:13 | 0:05:18 | |
the Scottish Government put clearly to the Scottish electorate that | 0:05:18 | 0:05:23 | |
there is a strong possibility that independent Scotland would have to | 0:05:23 | 0:05:28 | |
reapply for membership of the European Union? And that there may | 0:05:28 | 0:05:36 | |
be a period before the application process is completed when an | 0:05:36 | 0:05:41 | |
independent Scotland would do not in fact be a member of the European | 0:05:41 | 0:05:48 | |
Union? -- would not in fact. Would that be but clearly so that people | 0:05:48 | 0:05:52 | |
understand the gamble they are taking on continued membership of | 0:05:52 | 0:05:58 | |
the European Union? To give you a sharp answer, no, we will not do | 0:05:58 | 0:06:03 | |
that, because we do not take that view. For the question of there | 0:06:03 | 0:06:08 | |
being a period of Scotland not being in the European Union, I | 0:06:08 | 0:06:13 | |
think the issue which has to be recognised is at the heart of the, | 0:06:13 | 0:06:20 | |
as I have made about the paragraph that the Lord chairman highlighted | 0:06:20 | 0:06:27 | |
to begin with... There is no mechanism to not apply the treaties. | 0:06:27 | 0:06:31 | |
Therefore, we could not put to the people of Scotland a comment that | 0:06:31 | 0:06:34 | |
somehow the treaties would not apply because there is no provision | 0:06:35 | 0:06:40 | |
within the treaty to enable that to happen. | 0:06:40 | 0:06:46 | |
Who is right and he was wrong? Canny Scottish Government change | 0:06:46 | 0:06:48 | |
the view of the European Commission? -- can that the | 0:06:48 | 0:06:58 | |
Scottish Government was upstaging for the next instalment. -- stay | 0:06:58 | 0:07:03 | |
tuned. We could not persuade a Minister to | 0:07:03 | 0:07:08 | |
appear tonight but I am joined this evening by Lord McFall. He was part | 0:07:08 | 0:07:12 | |
of the committee that Quist John Swinney. What did you make about | 0:07:12 | 0:07:19 | |
the arguments about whether an independent Scotland would be in or | 0:07:19 | 0:07:25 | |
out of the European Union? This MP said previously that it was cut and | 0:07:25 | 0:07:29 | |
dried and Phil President Barroso's letter came. I thought it was | 0:07:29 | 0:07:32 | |
disingenuous of John Swinney today to say there was no basis in the | 0:07:32 | 0:07:39 | |
treaty because there was a Parliamentary question on the 1st | 0:07:39 | 0:07:48 | |
March 2042 President Barroso's predecessor -- in March, 2004. He | 0:07:48 | 0:07:54 | |
said that a country that became independent by secession from its | 0:07:54 | 0:08:00 | |
main body would be a third country as far as the commission was | 0:08:00 | 0:08:06 | |
concerned and would have to reapply. When a Parliamentary committee | 0:08:06 | 0:08:10 | |
sends a letter to the president of the European Commission and that | 0:08:10 | 0:08:15 | |
takes weeks to come back, I really do not think that it is a rushed | 0:08:15 | 0:08:19 | |
job. I think there is a little bit of flying kites by John Swinney | 0:08:19 | 0:08:26 | |
today on this issue. The counter to that is that just because the | 0:08:26 | 0:08:32 | |
predecessor interpreted things that way in 2004, he cannot point to | 0:08:32 | 0:08:36 | |
anything in the European treaties which actually provides for the | 0:08:36 | 0:08:39 | |
situation that Scotland would be insured it vote for independence. | 0:08:39 | 0:08:43 | |
The difference with Algeria is that the Algerians... There was a colony | 0:08:44 | 0:08:48 | |
of France and could not get away quick enough. Scotland's attitude | 0:08:48 | 0:08:56 | |
is not like that. The answer draws on article 299 which further draws | 0:08:56 | 0:09:03 | |
on Article 256. It is wrong to say there is no basis. I think what the | 0:09:03 | 0:09:08 | |
situation today is that it is a complex situation. There is not a | 0:09:08 | 0:09:14 | |
simple proposition. It is not tested as the SNP said it was. The | 0:09:14 | 0:09:20 | |
letter from Nicola Sturgeon to President Barroso was only sent | 0:09:20 | 0:09:23 | |
yesterday it asking for negotiations and the chairman I | 0:09:23 | 0:09:32 | |
think was quite a standard that be -- despite the furore eight the SNP | 0:09:32 | 0:09:37 | |
did not seem willing to put pen to paper and contact the commission. | 0:09:37 | 0:09:43 | |
They have made it much more complex and Maddie as a result of their | 0:09:43 | 0:09:48 | |
resistance -- muddy. Is the bottom line not that it does not matter? | 0:09:48 | 0:09:52 | |
If people in Scotland did vote for independence, you cannot conceive | 0:09:52 | 0:09:55 | |
can you that the European Union would somehow want to throw | 0:09:55 | 0:10:05 | |
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It does matter because we have had 19 sessions where a FTSE 100 | 0:10:09 | 0:10:15 | |
companies employing 6500 people in Dumbarton, worth 2 billion of | 0:10:15 | 0:10:21 | |
revenues, where the chairman says that being part of the you is for | 0:10:21 | 0:10:26 | |
them to have their headquarters and their manufacturing base... I am | 0:10:26 | 0:10:31 | |
not disputing it is important for big companies, but you simply can't | 0:10:31 | 0:10:34 | |
concede, Kenya, given that the people of Scotland have been part | 0:10:34 | 0:10:39 | |
of the you for 40 years, you can't conceive of a situation where | 0:10:39 | 0:10:45 | |
should people vote for independence, their European Union would want to | 0:10:45 | 0:10:50 | |
sling Scotland out. We don't do things with nods and winks here. We | 0:10:50 | 0:10:57 | |
have got to ensure that we lay out the issues that we de complex the | 0:10:57 | 0:11:01 | |
issues and have for transparency. You can't just say, because | 0:11:01 | 0:11:06 | |
Scotland is voting for independence then everything will be OK. That is | 0:11:06 | 0:11:11 | |
not the way you do business. When you see the opportunity in the rest | 0:11:11 | 0:11:20 | |
of Europe, Spain, and others, perhaps the EC will be nervous | 0:11:20 | 0:11:26 | |
about this situation. It requires the SNP to be honest, engaged on a | 0:11:26 | 0:11:31 | |
serious level with the EC Commission so that they provided | 0:11:31 | 0:11:36 | |
transparency and simplicity in the debate. It is characterised at the | 0:11:36 | 0:11:41 | |
moment by uncertainty. What they have done his pile uncertainty on | 0:11:41 | 0:11:45 | |
uncertainty. Both you and the SNP seemed he agree that there would | 0:11:46 | 0:11:50 | |
have to be some form of negotiations. You just disagree | 0:11:50 | 0:11:55 | |
about the status of negotiations. I am curious as to what you think the | 0:11:55 | 0:11:59 | |
negotiations would be about. They would be about Scotland getting | 0:11:59 | 0:12:07 | |
into their EU because Barroso's letter makes that very clear. | 0:12:07 | 0:12:14 | |
make an obvious point, the body of law which you have to sign up to in | 0:12:14 | 0:12:19 | |
order to become a member of the EU is already northern Scotland, so | 0:12:19 | 0:12:23 | |
that wouldn't change. In your view, would it be issues like whether or | 0:12:23 | 0:12:28 | |
not Scotland had to join the Euro? If you are going to be an aspiring | 0:12:28 | 0:12:33 | |
member then you have to join the Euro. I think that John Swinney put | 0:12:33 | 0:12:38 | |
himself in a corner today when he said that he could never envisage | 0:12:38 | 0:12:42 | |
Scotland joining the Euro. It doesn't seem the best approach, | 0:12:42 | 0:12:48 | |
when you are asking to get into the EU, and you are saying we are not | 0:12:48 | 0:12:52 | |
going to join your currency, it so I think they put themselves into a | 0:12:52 | 0:12:57 | |
corner on that issue. Thank you very much for joining us. Listening | 0:12:57 | 0:13:03 | |
to that in our studio is Iain Macwhirter of the Herald. What do | 0:13:03 | 0:13:07 | |
you make of this? Are you bored stiff or do you find it | 0:13:07 | 0:13:13 | |
interesting? What is interesting is how the SNP have such heavy weather | 0:13:13 | 0:13:19 | |
of this. It is very revealing that this policy, which delivered so | 0:13:19 | 0:13:24 | |
many political benefits for me ever last 20 years, has now become a | 0:13:24 | 0:13:29 | |
milestone. I still think it is a tactical problem, but they have not | 0:13:30 | 0:13:33 | |
begun to address it. They are only listening to themselves and not | 0:13:33 | 0:13:40 | |
others, particularly what Manual Barroso was saying. He started | 0:13:40 | 0:13:44 | |
saying this back in September when he came out with a line that a new | 0:13:44 | 0:13:48 | |
state would have to apply like any other. There seems to be the issue | 0:13:48 | 0:13:53 | |
with the SNP on this issue, doesn't there, that if they keep repeating | 0:13:53 | 0:13:57 | |
something over and over again, somehow it will become true. It | 0:13:57 | 0:14:03 | |
looks like that is coming unstuck. Essentially I understand the | 0:14:03 | 0:14:08 | |
frustration because this is a bogus argument. Not even Lord McFall was | 0:14:08 | 0:14:12 | |
prepared to say that Scotland would be thrown out of the EU if it | 0:14:12 | 0:14:17 | |
became independent. Nobody believes that really is the case, however, | 0:14:17 | 0:14:22 | |
you know, it has been made to appear as though that is on the | 0:14:22 | 0:14:28 | |
agenda. It could have been addressed more directly by the SNP. | 0:14:29 | 0:14:33 | |
Perhaps Nicholas sturgeon will do this later this week. She could | 0:14:33 | 0:14:38 | |
have hopped on a flight to Brussels last September and proper help | 0:14:38 | 0:14:44 | |
Barroso on it and ask if he is seriously saying that if Scotland | 0:14:44 | 0:14:49 | |
becomes independent you would expel 5.2 million citizens of the EU from | 0:14:49 | 0:14:55 | |
the European Union? De you seriously believe that? There's | 0:14:55 | 0:15:01 | |
also this issue, are fiercely the SNP strategy is to not frighten the | 0:15:01 | 0:15:07 | |
horses, but to do you think they are pushing it too far? Vote for | 0:15:07 | 0:15:11 | |
independence, absolutely no difference whatsoever. Why not just | 0:15:11 | 0:15:18 | |
say, there has to be a renegotiation. That is a pretty | 0:15:18 | 0:15:22 | |
radical thing to do, of course all sorts of things will have to change, | 0:15:22 | 0:15:28 | |
that is what is exciting. Of course negotiations would have to take | 0:15:28 | 0:15:35 | |
place. Over a number of issues. But an number of these would have to be | 0:15:35 | 0:15:40 | |
renegotiated by the UK, because the UK would have to renegotiate its | 0:15:40 | 0:15:45 | |
contribution to the EU budget. It would also have to defend its | 0:15:45 | 0:15:50 | |
voting strength in the Council of Ministers which the UK will be very | 0:15:50 | 0:15:56 | |
much reduced. I think, I mean, I am mystified why the SNP has got into | 0:15:56 | 0:16:01 | |
this mess over it. I think it is because they did not listen to what | 0:16:01 | 0:16:05 | |
Barroso was saying because he has another agenda. He was trying to | 0:16:05 | 0:16:10 | |
say to the Spanish government that they you will not encourage so | 0:16:10 | 0:16:16 | |
session. That is why he has been shifting this way towards | 0:16:17 | 0:16:21 | |
suggesting that new states would have to apply separately for the EU. | 0:16:21 | 0:16:27 | |
He knows that is not really the case, that it would be about | 0:16:27 | 0:16:31 | |
negotiation. No one would get expelled, but the SNP should have | 0:16:31 | 0:16:37 | |
gone in and questioned that. Do you think the SNP need to fight back in | 0:16:37 | 0:16:41 | |
and narrow political sense? The No 2 independence people could just | 0:16:41 | 0:16:46 | |
say here is yet another issue which they had said was not a problem and | 0:16:46 | 0:16:51 | |
it turns out there are all sorts of questions. How do the SNP fight | 0:16:51 | 0:16:56 | |
back against that perception? need to refrain it, for a start. | 0:16:56 | 0:17:00 | |
They are so passive about it as though Scotland would be pleading | 0:17:00 | 0:17:07 | |
to stay in the EU. The EU would be desperate to keep Scotland due to | 0:17:07 | 0:17:11 | |
though it renewable energy sources. Similarly with the currency. That | 0:17:11 | 0:17:15 | |
is the Billy saying that we have to be allowed to keep the pound, I | 0:17:15 | 0:17:19 | |
think they should say, maybe not. If it is like that, maybe think of | 0:17:20 | 0:17:25 | |
taking up the Euro. A quick look at the front pages starting with the | 0:17:25 | 0:17:31 | |
Herald. Lennon reprimand Celtic start over Real IRA tribute is the | 0:17:31 | 0:17:39 | |
headline. The Celtic player who has been accused by the Football Club. | 0:17:39 | 0:17:47 | |
The Scotsman, tidings of diskette - - discomfort and woe in Scotland. | 0:17:47 | 0:17:52 |