12/12/2012 Newsnight Scotland

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: The government launches a

consultation on its same sex marriage bill. But what's the point,

when it ignored its own consultation on whether to have the

bill in the first place? And how does the bill compare with

same sex marriage proposals for England and Wales? On the face of

it, it's more liberal, but are attitudes here really any

different? Also tonight, fewer people are

unemployed, but there are fewer people in the workforce. We'll try

to explain the ever more mysterious employment figures.

Good evening. Yesterday, David Cameron gave the go-ahead for same

sex marriages in England. But the Church of England will be

specifically excluded by law. Today the Scottish government published

its plans to legislate. The Church of Scotland won't be specifically

excluded, although it will be able to choose whether to be in or out,

like every other church. Very few MSPs are opposed to same sex

marriage. Are they in tune or out After the consultation on same-sex

marriage, the consultation on the bill. Same-sex marriage is broadly

speaking back to buy most MSPs, and all the major parties. But it is

opposed by the Church of Scotland, the Roman Catholic church and some

other religious groups. The government is trying to offer

reassurance. It is about a balance. You have

people of the same sex wanting to get married. On the other hand you

have people who are dates this of religious reasons. So what we are

doing is we are saying if you are in love and of the same sex, you

are free to marry. But if you are a religious organisation or a member

of the clergy and you don't want to participate in that, you have the

freedom not to. The Scottish government is always

insisting that nobody would be forced to conduct gay marriages.

Under the plans, religious and believe groups would be to opt in

to conduct them. The Scottish government is to work with

Westminster to make sure or are they so that don't conduct gay

marriages don't fall foul of equality laws. -- made sure that

organisations. We are still concerned, as a matter

of law, that the Scottish government can fulfil the promise

it has made to protect those whose genuinely held religious beliefs

mean that they can't support the proposals on same-sex marriage.

The Catholic Church also has Same-sex marriage is also being

introduced south of the border, and there's in interesting difference

in the political debate. A significant number of Conservative

MPs are openly opposed. But here, the number of -- majority of Ennis

p support gay marriage. The leaders of all for -- four major parties

support the principle. One of the most prominent critics

has been the SNP's former leader, Gordon Wilson, who spoke at a

fringe meeting near the SNP conference.

The SNP government, for reasons I can't understand, has stumbled into

a difficulty that they should have avoided. As a nationalist, I find

it odd that, in the run-up to an independent referendum, the F --

SNP adopted gay marriage, knowing that it would alienate many voters.

A brilliant tactician! Did Gordon Wilson hit a point? By

think back to the year 2000 and the campaign against the repeal of

Section 28. We didn't vote for it and we are

not having it. Is there a social conservatism in

Scotland which is not represented in Holyrood. In any case, R N S B

is supposed to lead public opinion Professor John Haldane of St

Andrews University's philosophy department is in Dundee. And the

writer and blogger Gerry Hassan is here in Glasgow.

And a curious as to what to make the difference between Scottish

proposals and what is happening There's a similar effort to reach a

balance in England and Wales and Scotland. That is about the balance

between equality in the law of same-sex marriage and acknowledging

religious principle. What the David Cameron government seems to have

done is because there's such attention over a whole host of

things, they have leaned towards what is, I think, and illogical

compromise, basically, that runs a horse and cart through the

principle of equality. I am curious as to what you make.

Even if you are against gay sex -- same-sex marriage in principle,

there's a compromise way you say, well, we will make it legal but

illegal in the Church of England. Does that make sense to you?

It does when you think about the position of the Church of in and --

of England as the established Church. What might be domestic law

for another denomination, the Church of England has statutory

status. It is tied in legally. The other aspect is that the Queen is

the head of the Church of England. She has her archbishops publicly

protesting this move towards implementation of same-sex marriage.

It would be difficult for her to sign this legislation. There's a

lot of delicacy being operated here. That doesn't have a counterpart in

Scotland. It is not an established church.

Do you believe... Where does it leave the Scottish legislation?

It is trying to balance principles that are incompatible. One of the

things we need to acknowledge is how far Scotland has travelled.

What a lot of people don't remember is that in 1967, when male

homosexuality was decriminalised and it was decriminalised in

England and Wales. We had a decriminalisation in 1980. Then we

had the court full-court was of Clause 28. -- then we have the

cultural wars. Now we can't talk about how far we have travelled or

allow people who have reservations to talk or air them in a language

where we are trying to aid equality. There's a way we are not

acknowledging how far we have Dear things Scottish society has

changed, John? -- do you think? That is an interesting question,

and it is difficult to answer. If you look at the politicians and the

common Terry at, they are so on representative in general of the

circumstances are people at large. -- and on representative. If you

reach the domestic newspapers, the so-called quality press, under 2%

are reading this newspaper has, so commentary there, who is reading

it? A tiny number of people, we are essentially talking to ourselves.

One indicator might be better when they had a consultation on having a

bill at all, the majority of respondents were against it. Having

made a big fuss about it consultation, they ignored it

because it was just the wrong answer! That is an issue about

which many have complained. The consultation happens daily on one

thing or another, so the general population are not interested. I

responded to a number of consultations on a range of issues,

arts funding, all sorts of things, it tends to be the same kinds of

people that but in a response, campaign groups, interested

individuals, activists and so on. Most of this does not touch

ordinary people. The Resi deeper, more pervasive problem. -- there is

a deeper. We saw the introduction of bills in Westminster on voting

procedures on the election of police commissioners and so on, and

what we see in response to this, as this is an indication of public

interest, plummeting voting figures. I would like to see the next

Scottish election what it would be like, there will be a lower turnout.

There is a gap turning up. This around argument that if you are

genuine objections to same-sex marriage and you look at the

Scottish Parliament as opposed to the Westminster Parliament, in

Westminster, there is a phalanx of MPs saying this will not pass if we

can stop out, if you look at the Scottish Parliament, you have got

eight out of the entire Parliament, you are entitled to feel that this

Parliament, maybe it represents some people, but it does not

represent me! Write about newspapers, write about commentary,

there is evidence that Scotland is much more conservative than England

and it is broadly in line now. We have changed much more. It is much

more tolerant, diverse, but that diversity is about a narrower set

of issues, a cosmopolitan democracy but does not threaten people in the

European debate. Doesn't John's point mean that Europe is the other

classic wine, if you look at that Parliament in Westminster, there is

a huge division of views within and between parties, and if you look

year, on the question of Europe, the Conservatives might represent a

more Euro-sceptic tradition, but the vast majority say the European

Union is fine. That's right, this is not an issue about same-sex

marriage, I do not think that is a particular pivotal one on this, the

wider issues are that there are a set of things that concern people

in everyday life that a complicated, Unionism, nationalism, and stay do

not represent a cosmopolitan, and lead, liberal view the way that

some of the media interprets the census figures, like immigration

being good, and class etc. counter to this would be to say

that if people that genuinely objective to same-sex marriage or

membership of the European Union were to form political parties on

those issues and stand in the Scottish election, they probably

would not get very far? probably true, but if you remember

when Parliament has been set up, and the system would allow a space

for independence and committees would exert a degree of

independence and we have seen that the list systems are in the service

of the main parties. It is a problem in the left and on the

right that political parties have migrated from traditional positions,

so the Labour Party in Scotland tended to be socially conservative

and economic the radical and the Conservative Party has migrated

from the standard positions and so on, and there are a large number of

people turning away because it does not interest them. Is this not a

problem that is more aggravated at Holyrood then it is at Westminster?

Given what we have mentioned on Europe and same-sex marriage, the

receipt huge split a cross-party cent within parties. The big

problem is that the or is a lack of ambition. There are two handfuls of

able people there, but for the most part, it looks like the regional

council, but while Westminster is still a stage in which people can

move, Scottish politicians and the more stable of them will migrate

south, that is an obvious fact. You need to look at the front benches

of the two main parties and the Liberal Democrats also. It is a

problem, and I do not know what is to be done about this, but I hope

Parliament will mature, but as it stands, it is disappointing. I do

not want to turn this into a plea for more reactionaries in the

Scottish Parliament, but there is on more social issues, public

sector reform, all of the parties are much more the same than they

are at the British level. That is all true, I do not buy the point

that Westminster is this great model, I think it is broken, we had

the biggest expenses scandal in modern history, the dilemmas are

not reflected here. That is due in Westminster and in Scotland, in

their Parliaments. Thank you. We said last month that politicians

compare unemployment statistics on a month-to-month basis to see if

Scotland is doing better than the UK. Unemployment is down everywhere

but Scotland is slightly better than the rest. The number of people

employed in Scotland has also decreased.

In July to September unemployment in Scotland rose as far as a print

1%. Unemployment for the wide UK was down. -- as far as 8.1 %. This

is what we said one month ago. The graphic shows that unemployment

rates are similar to those elsewhere continues for another

month. This time, unemployment in Scotland is slightly lower than the

UK average, but without any particular explanation our

rationale. The number of job seekers has gone down also. The

downside for the Scottish Government is that employment is

down, effectively, the size of the workforce has shrunk. There are

still challenge is in the Scottish economy, I would be the first to

accept that point and the unemployment position is certainly

improving. We yet have the largest fall in unemployment in any quarter

since the spring of 2008. We had the welcome fall in youth

unemployment, but we have got to continue our efforts to push the

employment base within Scotland. is obvious because more people have

left the workforce then joined its possibly because more people are

retiring then young people starting out, or because workless people

give up looking for work for a variety of other reasons.

We are joined by Professor David Bell, maybe it is over-egging it by

saying this is becoming a thriller, but it is a genuine mistake. John

Swinney pointed out that the biggest fall for ages in

unemployment, but he forgot to mention that Scotland had the

biggest fall in employment of any area of the UK. How can these two

things go together? It is effectively what was said earlier,

people are perhaps dropping out of the labour market, perhaps students

that his side when asked the question by the survey that they

are not traded looking for work, they are concentrated on their

studies, or maybe people retiring earlier than we would expect them

to, it may also be that migrant workers are going back to Eastern

Europe or perhaps people are migrating from Scotland, but it

looks like the overall size or the overall number of people looking

for work or Ian Breckin Scotland is definitely been contracting.

should point out that the ON ness that compiles these figures, they

say about it may be down to a sampling area, but they do not know

if it is or not. -- sampling error in the Office of National

Statistics. I understand everything that you have said, but it is

difficult why this would apply to Scotland more than or exclusively,

rather than other UK area is. The figures for the rest of the UK, if

you look at the changed over the next 12 months, there is almost

470,000 extra jobs Indian bend, there are about 40,000 more in

Wales. -- extra jobs in England. There doesn't appear to be serious

job generation going on. You have got some Labour inactivity figures

for Scotland, people that report themselves as no longer in work or

looking for work, tell us about that? People drop out for all kinds

of reasons. They decide that may be they would like to retire or they

decide... The figures this month of was to count for the entire

increase in the UK? Penumbra people dropping out of the labour market

this month in Scotland and the number dropping out in GB as a

whole are always the same. -- the number of people dropping out of

the labour market. It seemed slightly differed close to

determine literally. Yes, there are sampling errors around these

numbers. Coming down to what specifically could be happening,

could there be, for example you mentioned migrant workers, could

they be going home to eastern Europe from Scotland at a higher

rate than they are from other areas in the south-east? None of these

areas are clear, there is a lot of depressing news around. We have

heard about these. If we can fully explain this contrast, it seems to

me that there is still more investigation to be done. Just

briefly on some other statistics, gross value adding, GDP figures for

last year, four regions of the UK and this with them into sub regions,

and the only sub Regent and the entire UK were GDP last year fell

was East of Scotland. Very briefly, why? Possibly a weaker year for the

oil, possibly a downturn in the financial services brought about by

difficulties of two major banks, but still pretty difficult to fully