10/01/2013 Newsnight Scotland

Now he wants to save the Union with England. He is no Lord Nelson or

Winston Churchill, but could Alistair Darling be the hero to

outdo all great British arose? -- heroes?

Good evening. Alistair Darling was one of only

three people to sit in Cabinet for the entirety of Labour's 13 years

in office. He was the Chancellor who secured his reputation by his

handling of the banking collapse of 2008. And now he's leading the

campaign to preserve Scotland's place within the UK. In a moment,

we'll be hearing his views on everything from whether there

should be more devolution to whether there should be a British

currency union even if Scotland votes for independence. But first,

Jamie McIvor has this assessment of Darling the man and the mission

Is Alistair Darling the mild- mannered hero for Unionists? The

man who saved the banks who will now saved the United Kingdom? The

former Chancellor now chairs better together, a cross-party campaign

against independence. He is on a tour of Scotland, making a case,

but his dry it serious-minded darling the right man to take on

Alex Salmond? He is somebody who is able to work with people from all

sorts of diverse backgrounds and that is because no matter how much

he disagrees with someone, he is able to focus on the task in hand

and this is the task in hand where there is agreement across Labour

and the Tories. He is also somebody who no matter how much she

disagrees with someone is prepared to treat them with respect. In

return, he gets respect and credibility from those who were

also disagree with his politics. Darling first came to prominence as

a Labour councillor in the 1980s, bearded, sometimes open Collard, he

wasn't just trendy, he was also LFT. He was friends with another Labour

councillor who is now a committed supporter of independence. I think

he is tactically astute and he will bring these qualities to bear for

the campaign. He has to consider what history will say if Scotland

narrowly reject this opportunity for independence. Because it has

accepted a line from a coalition of Tories, Liberals and Alistair

Darling. That would not be the legacy which at his best he would

want to leave. Not long after he became Chancellor, the global

economy hit the rocks. Mr Darling predicted as much to a newspaper

journalist months before from his family croft and Lewis. Many were

sceptical. For Scottish government are critical Alistair Darling for

predicting a long-lasting economic downturn. Some in the UK cabinet

were not exactly happy either. But weeks later he was at the centre of

the bail out that saved two huge Scottish banks. For some, Alistair

Darling became the hero, although opponents take another view.

SNP and some in the yes Scotland Campaign believe Alistair Darling

house two weaknesses. They think Scots regard him as somehow tainted

by the economic crash in 2008 and his part in that. He was Chancellor

at the time. They also think he is weak on certain aspects of the

batter to De Gea the narrative, mainly welfare reform. This week we

had the House of Commons voting to cut benefits for certain recipients

in society. The SNP would cry with some villain for did Teague is are

we truly better together when Westminster is foisting these cuts

He for now, Alistair Darling's reputation and rest so on the

referendum. Sea of independents and federal Unionists might add him to

a list of great British heroes. But what would failure mean?

Jamie McIvor reporting there. Earlier this evening, I spoke to

Alistair Darling. I began by asking him whether the prospect of a

Labour victory at Westminster in 2015 might assist the pro-union

cause at the referendum in 2014. course what is happening at the

time of the election -- the referendum... I don't just mean the

outlook for the next general election, what is happening in the

economy, Europe, the Middle East, it will influence people. I think

people in Scotland can distinguish between the election of a

government for five years and this thing, the referendum, which is

about what we have for the next 300 years. You will have Alex Salmond

and the SNP saying look, it is a stark choice between a social

democratic Scotland or five or more years of Tory -- Tory austerity

which Labour disagree with as much as we do. That is a no-brainer.

Surely the only way you can reply is to vote no in the referendum

campaign because Labour will make... Of course Alex Salmond will fight

the issue as his government against... As an ordinary voter,

that will have an influence. That will be a real issue at the general

election. The reason he is doing that is because he knows he can't

answer some fundamental questions as to what independence will mean.

What I will say to voters in Scotland is you are being asked to

do something completely different from voting in a government. You

are being asked to decide for your country to split from the UK and

you are being asked to do that with basic questions on what currency we

will use... He is reasonable for people here to say we would prefer

a social democratic Scotland. If the choice is between a political

ideology we don't like and an independent Scotland, why shouldn't

we vote for that? You are not voting for five years. In five

years' time if you voted for independence, you can't go back to

the UK after that. You have changed irrevocably. Of course Alex Salmond

does not want to talk about some of the awkward questions of

independence. Look at the trouble he got into over the European Union.

What are you going to argue? That Scotland, its long-term future is

dependent upon us being part of the UK, we are better and stronger

because of it. We are part of a larger economy, we can share risks,

deal with some of the big problems like the demographic changes, the

pressures on the welfare state. But also the opportunities we have with

Scots firms being able to sell him to England without any boundaries

or barriers, the financial services industry. They announced yesterday

they were going to use sterling, New get the sense they are is a

sort of assumption among the Coalition that we have already won

this? They said the other day they are not going to do any planning

for things like Trident missiles. There have been all sorts of

political commentators saying that they pretty much know they will win.

Do you think there is a complacency creeping in? A I do not and if

there is, there is no place for it. We are two years' a way from the

referendum and nobody can see how the arguments will turn out. Until

there is a mandate, you cannot proceed as if the decision had

already been taken. We've all find out in 2014, when Alex Salmond is

good enough to tell us the date, what the people of Scotland think.

Until then, we have to look at the arguments and to go back to one of

year earlier points, as it not high time we got on to these things.

What about the Scottish government which cannot tell us until November

this year what it thinks about these things, less than one year

before the poll, and may have had 80 years to think about these

things that cannot answer some fundamental questions. Why can they

not tell us? Johann Lamont has set up a commission to look at further

possible demolition as part of Labour's offering. -- devolution.

Is there any need for this? That is a matter of debate. There is no

conclusion or consensus as to whether any further revolution is

needed. -- devolution. I have said before that I think other things

will be devolved from time to time. The Scottish government has powers

to start borrowing in two years' time. These things are happening

and that is a change on the 1997 arrangements. You cannot think of

any specific ex-managers? I am prepared to look at that.

problem is you are running the campaign to stay in the UK so what

is not quite good enough to say you are ready to look at it. Either it

is perfectly legitimate for you to say no, there should not be, or

actually yes, I think it should be. I am not saying that and I have

always argued miss. Ever since there was the topic of the third

question or the second question, what you have to ask is, I'll be

staying in the UK? If so, do you want to devolved any further, or

are we leaving... You consistently want to make this into your debate

that I suspect this is not one that people that have not made up their

minds will be looking at. It is not a case that everything else can

wait till later, if I am going to wait -- to vote now, what are

people like Alastair Darling offering me in terms of further

progress order other options? I disagree with you is the first

question you have to ask is are you staying on are you going? I made

the point that all parties will have to set out in their manifestos

what further constitutional change they would want, because I do not

think you can ask people to vote on it unless it has been in your

manifesto. Suppose you decided to do that, you would have to ask

people living in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. They have not

been asked on at any of this so far, even with three SNP's plans for a

currency union. How committed are you to this whole issue? Could we

see you standing for the Holyrood parliament? I am still a member of

parliament and what I am committed to his fighting this referendum

campaign. You could say, I would like to be in the Scottish

Parliament... After this referendum campaign, I will try then.A former

Chancellor of the Exchequer. You are also presumably in the spirit

of debate prepared to concede you might lose this campaign. The SNP's

idea of an independent Scotland keeping the pound Stirling currency,

what would you suggest? A separate currency or joining the euro?

I have said in relation to the currency union it is that if there

is independence there may well be one. What I would say is that if

you genuinely think... Should you lose, let's say you are Chancellor

of an independent Scotland, what would you say? Of course it would

be desirable to have a currency union but you also have to

understand their consequences because a currency union means you

bought have to agree on budgets and how much you can tax, spend and

borrow. The point I am making is that is not the dumb! When you're

in the eurozone, when Portugal sits down with Germany, who is going to

make the decisions and call the shots? -- that is not so the dumb.

What I am drawing attention to is the objectionable terms and

conditions and the fact it will no longer be something we all agree on.

You will have two partners such have to agree on it. If you have

independence or separation, of course a currency union is logical,

because a currency union ultimately leads to an economic and political

union which is what we have now. I believe in the political union.

Should Scotland bought to be independent? You think currency

union is preferable to joining the euro, and you also think it would

be in the interests of the rest of the UK? Let me answer that. I don't

think it is in her interests to join the euro and I do not see that

changing. Using somebody else's currency what the Bank of England

and a foreign bank fixing up the rate of interest with no last

resort or financial institutions, that leads to currency union and

currency union takes you to an economic union and then a political

union. We are then back where we are in the United Kingdom. Why go

through it all this drama as the nationalists are suggesting to end

up in the very same place you started from? I am entirely

consistent and would look like to go through the whole mess to alter

that we end up where we started. -- ultimately end up. You budgets have

to beat decided by the individual countries and you end up with the

censor duration. -- same situation. Do you think of Scotland became

independent it would be in the interests of an organisation like

the Royal Bank of Scotland, given the size of the country and the

impact? They said it would depend on what was on the table. Scotland

would have to have its own regulator and that is just what the

European laws require. If you were using someone else's currency,

heaven knows what would happen. Let me refer you to what the chairman

said - we like being in Scotland and we have good employees and do

not want to move, but if there is uncertainty a people come to doubt

who stands behind us, we will have to look at it again. Why are we

doing this and pitting ourselves through all this? Why do we want to

raise at any question marks over the Royal Bank of Scotland and

indeed other financial institutions? People always ask

what governments -- what banks stand behind you and what

governments behind that. Thank you very much.

Joining me now from Edinburgh is BBC Scotland political

correspondent Raymond Buchanan. First of all, is politics going to

be dominated by this over the next year? For absolutely. It has been

since 20th May 11 and it is like a thick mist over Scottish politics,

the entire independence question and campaign. I cannot see 2013

being any different. Do you see the public being thrilled by this

prospect? After the victory in 2011, there was an enormous amount of

public attention towards constitutional issues. I am not

sure whether many voters on both campaign sides would say that the

public are particularly fascinated, and the in and day out. -- Date in.

The job now up of both campaigns will be to over the next year build

some kind of infrastructure. What we have seen is then building up

some of their initial personnel and working out their strategies about

how they can prepare the campaign for 2014. That'll be the big

challenge of this year - getting the infrastructure in place so that

when the campaign heats up, there are campaigns there which can

deliver their points of view. used the infrastructure, do you

think that by the beginning of next year, there will be hordes of

trained people ready to be unleashed? When you look at what

the yes campaign are doing at the moment, they are holding meetings

throughout Scotland where they are having various community events.

They say they what the biggest community organisation and campaign

ahead of 2014. That is happening across Scotland now. The Better

Together campaign has had a grand tour this week meeting with

businesses and communities, trying to build up relationships and get

the infrastructure in place. your view, who is that he needs to

target? I think Pete first step is to securing the Labour Court. They

have been in recent weeks targeting issues they think will resonate

with Labour voters. They have been pointing out that Scotland would

have taken a different set of choices and are therefore tried to

persuade traditional Labour voters to give the idea of independence

serious thought, but beyond that, there is a question mark over both

campaigns which is that traditional voters expect this independence

referendum to have a much higher turnout. They do not know what the

moment how it any additional voters will act in the polling booth and

there will be a lot of research this year to determine who they are

and how they can be persuaded to. Now a quick look at tomorrow's