04/03/2013 Newsnight Scotland

Good evening and welcome to an Good evening and welcome to an

extended edition of Newsnight extended edition of Newsnight

extended edition of Newsnight Scotland. The Catholic Church is

Scotland. The Catholic Church is Scotland. The Catholic Church is

still reeling from the fall of still reeling from the fall of

Cardinal Keith O'Brien. Tonight, Cardinal Keith O'Brien. Tonight,

Cardinal Keith O'Brien. Tonight, our panel of experts has gathered

our panel of experts has gathered our panel of experts has gathered

our panel of experts has gathered here to debate how the church deals

here to debate how the church deals here to debate how the church deals

with accusations of rank hypocrisy. with accusations of rank hypocrisy.

with accusations of rank hypocrisy. And its future role in Scottish

And its future role in Scottish And its future role in Scottish

life as its moral authority appears life as its moral authority appears

Tonight at a Lenten Mass, the Tonight at a Lenten Mass, the

Archbishop of Glasgow, Philip Archbishop of Glasgow, Philip

Archbishop of Glasgow, Philip Tartaglia, said there is little

Tartaglia, said there is little Tartaglia, said there is little

doubt the moral authority of his doubt the moral authority of his

doubt the moral authority of his church has been dealt a serious

church has been dealt a serious blow. Cardinal O'Brien's admission

blow. Cardinal O'Brien's admission blow. Cardinal O'Brien's admission

that his sexual conduct fell below that his sexual conduct fell below

that his sexual conduct fell below the standards expected was almost

the standards expected was almost the standards expected was almost

impossible to bear for some impossible to bear for some

impossible to bear for some churchgoers. In a moment, we will

churchgoers. In a moment, we will churchgoers. In a moment, we will

hear from the Vatican, where hear from the Vatican, where

hear from the Vatican, where cardinals will soon elect a new

cardinals will soon elect a new cardinals will soon elect a new

cardinals will soon elect a new pope. One man will not be there, of

pope. One man will not be there, of pope. One man will not be there, of

course. Steven Godden now charts course. Steven Godden now charts

course. Steven Godden now charts the downfall of Scotland's cardinal.

the downfall of Scotland's cardinal. the downfall of Scotland's cardinal.

The Vatican, spiritual home of the The Vatican, spiritual home of the

The Vatican, spiritual home of the Catholic Church, and a place where

Catholic Church, and a place where Catholic Church, and a place where

decisions are made that have that decisions are made that have that

decisions are made that have that occasions across the goal. The

occasions across the goal. The occasions across the goal. The

cardinal's arriving here today and cardinal's arriving here today and

cardinal's arriving here today and cardinal's arriving here today and

on the cusp of the most important on the cusp of the most important

responsibility faced, electing a responsibility faced, electing a

responsibility faced, electing a new pope to replace Pope Benedict,

new pope to replace Pope Benedict, new pope to replace Pope Benedict,

the first man to resign the the first man to resign the

the first man to resign the the first man to resign the

position in more than 600 years. In position in more than 600 years. In

normal circumstances, the attention normal circumstances, the attention

normal circumstances, the attention of the Catholic community in

of the Catholic community in of the Catholic community in

Scotland would be firmly focused on Scotland would be firmly focused on

Scotland would be firmly focused on Rome, but these are extraordinary

Rome, but these are extraordinary Rome, but these are extraordinary

times. On the minds of those times. On the minds of those

times. On the minds of those attending Mass in Glasgow tonight,

attending Mass in Glasgow tonight, attending Mass in Glasgow tonight,

the sudden and unexpected fall from the sudden and unexpected fall from

the sudden and unexpected fall from grace suffered by Cardinal Keith

grace suffered by Cardinal Keith grace suffered by Cardinal Keith

O'Brien, the man who, until O'Brien, the man who, until

recently, was their leader. recently, was their leader.

Yesterday's admission of sexual Yesterday's admission of sexual

Yesterday's admission of sexual misconduct prompted a range of

misconduct prompted a range of emotions, anger, disappointment and

emotions, anger, disappointment and emotions, anger, disappointment and

for many, confusion. Tonight, the for many, confusion. Tonight, the

for many, confusion. Tonight, the man who succeeds him as Scotland's

man who succeeds him as Scotland's man who succeeds him as Scotland's

most senior Roman Catholic offered most senior Roman Catholic offered

most senior Roman Catholic offered these words to his congregation and

these words to his congregation and these words to his congregation and

the wider world. The most stinging the wider world. The most stinging

the wider world. The most stinging charge was has been levelled

charge was has been levelled charge was has been levelled

against us is the charge of against us is the charge of

against us is the charge of hypocrisy. And for obvious reasons.

hypocrisy. And for obvious reasons. hypocrisy. And for obvious reasons.

hypocrisy. And for obvious reasons. I think there is little doubt that

I think there is little doubt that I think there is little doubt that

the credibility and moral authority the credibility and moral authority

the credibility and moral authority of the Catholic Church in Scotland

of the Catholic Church in Scotland of the Catholic Church in Scotland

of the Catholic Church in Scotland has been dealt a serious blow. And

has been dealt a serious blow. And has been dealt a serious blow. And

has been dealt a serious blow. And we will need to come to terms with

we will need to come to terms with we will need to come to terms with

that. Foreign institution where the that. Foreign institution where the

wheels turn slowly, Cardinal wheels turn slowly, Cardinal

O'Brien's career unravelled at O'Brien's career unravelled at

O'Brien's career unravelled at breakneck speed, beginning 11 days

breakneck speed, beginning 11 days breakneck speed, beginning 11 days

breakneck speed, beginning 11 days ago, where he prepared to travel to

ago, where he prepared to travel to ago, where he prepared to travel to

Rome for a people conclave, and Rome for a people conclave, and

Rome for a people conclave, and gave an interview that suggested

gave an interview that suggested gave an interview that suggested

that priests may be allowed to that priests may be allowed to

that priests may be allowed to that priests may be allowed to

marrow. -- Maddy. It was part of marrow. -- Maddy. It was part of

marrow. -- Maddy. It was part of marrow. -- Maddy. It was part of

being a priest, when I was a young being a priest, when I was a young

being a priest, when I was a young being a priest, when I was a young

boy, like the priests did not get boy, like the priests did not get

boy, like the priests did not get married, and that was it. Whether

married, and that was it. Whether married, and that was it. Whether

you are a student for the you are a student for the

you are a student for the priesthood, it was part of the

priesthood, it was part of the priesthood, it was part of the

package, that you were celibate and package, that you were celibate and

package, that you were celibate and package, that you were celibate and

did not get married. By the weekend, did not get married. By the weekend,

did not get married. By the weekend, a very different picture had

a very different picture had a very different picture had

started to emerge. Allegations of started to emerge. Allegations of

inappropriate behaviour towards inappropriate behaviour towards

inappropriate behaviour towards three priests and one former priest

three priests and one former priest three priests and one former priest

emerged in a Sunday newspaper. The emerged in a Sunday newspaper. The

emerged in a Sunday newspaper. The cardinal said he would contest the

cardinal said he would contest the cardinal said he would contest the

claims, but there was no denial. claims, but there was no denial.

claims, but there was no denial. The next day, the story escalated

The next day, the story escalated The next day, the story escalated

The next day, the story escalated father. On the day the leader of

father. On the day the leader of Scotland's afflicts resigned.

Scotland's afflicts resigned. Scotland's afflicts resigned.

Cardinal Keith O'Brien stood down Cardinal Keith O'Brien stood down

Cardinal Keith O'Brien stood down with immediate effect... As the

with immediate effect... As the with immediate effect... As the

Tempest raged, he retreated behind Tempest raged, he retreated behind

Tempest raged, he retreated behind the walls of his Edinburgh

the walls of his Edinburgh the walls of his Edinburgh

residence. His first, it appeared residence. His first, it appeared

residence. His first, it appeared yesterday. It was a short statement,

yesterday. It was a short statement, yesterday. It was a short statement,

but the content was explosive. In but the content was explosive. In

but the content was explosive. In It was a startling admission about

It was a startling admission about It was a startling admission about

his private life, completely at his private life, completely at

his private life, completely at odds with his public pronouncements

odds with his public pronouncements odds with his public pronouncements

on homosexuality and gay marriage. on homosexuality and gay marriage.

on homosexuality and gay marriage. on homosexuality and gay marriage.

If the United Kingdom does go for, If the United Kingdom does go for,

and supports, same-sex marriages, and supports, same-sex marriages,

and supports, same-sex marriages, and supports, same-sex marriages,

it is shaming our country. It is it is shaming our country. It is

it is shaming our country. It is it is shaming our country. It is

time to call a halt from what you time to call a halt from what you

time to call a halt from what you might call progress in society. I

might call progress in society. I might call progress in society. I

might call progress in society. I do not call it progress, what is

do not call it progress, what is do not call it progress, what is

happening now days, if same-sex happening now days, if same-sex

happening now days, if same-sex unions were defined as marriages.

unions were defined as marriages. unions were defined as marriages.

Other aberrations would be taken Other aberrations would be taken

Other aberrations would be taken place on society and it would

place on society and it would place on society and it would

degenerate farther than it has degenerate farther than it has

already degenerated and into already degenerated and into

immorality. Cardinal O'Brien is immorality. Cardinal O'Brien is

immorality. Cardinal O'Brien is teaching what the church says on

teaching what the church says on teaching what the church says on

homosexuality, which won as is homosexuality, which won as is

homosexuality, which won as is homosexuality, which won as is

connected -- which is to say that connected -- which is to say that

connected -- which is to say that marriage is related to family life.

marriage is related to family life. marriage is related to family life.

marriage is related to family life. If he did not live up to the

If he did not live up to the If he did not live up to the

promises he made, that is something promises he made, that is something

promises he made, that is something promises he made, that is something

he is very sorry for and he has he is very sorry for and he has

he is very sorry for and he has he is very sorry for and he has

apologised. I do not think it takes apologised. I do not think it takes

apologised. I do not think it takes away from the teaching of the

away from the teaching of the away from the teaching of the

away from the teaching of the church and should not. But for a

church and should not. But for a church and should not. But for a

great many, the revelations about great many, the revelations about

Cardinal O'Brien exposed rank Cardinal O'Brien exposed rank

hypocrisy. Daniel Donaldson says hypocrisy. Daniel Donaldson says

hypocrisy. Daniel Donaldson says the Church's attitude to sexuality

the Church's attitude to sexuality the Church's attitude to sexuality

the Church's attitude to sexuality forced him to turn his back on the

forced him to turn his back on the forced him to turn his back on the

institution. Now he has written to institution. Now he has written to

institution. Now he has written to the church hierarchy calling for

the church hierarchy calling for the church hierarchy calling for

fresh dialogue. I am speaking from fresh dialogue. I am speaking from

fresh dialogue. I am speaking from a heart, from experience, they have

a heart, from experience, they have a heart, from experience, they have

caused great anxiety. The negative caused great anxiety. The negative

caused great anxiety. The negative reinforcement from words and deeds

reinforcement from words and deeds reinforcement from words and deeds

reinforcement from words and deeds is disturbing. It is almost like an

is disturbing. It is almost like an is disturbing. It is almost like an

is disturbing. It is almost like an olive branch to say, you can no

olive branch to say, you can no olive branch to say, you can no

longer sustain this view. But what longer sustain this view. But what

longer sustain this view. But what longer sustain this view. But what

the church excess -- but whilst the the church excess -- but whilst the

the church excess -- but whilst the church itself admits its moral

church itself admits its moral church itself admits its moral

authority has been undermined, this authority has been undermined, this

authority has been undermined, this academic says those hoping for

academic says those hoping for academic says those hoping for

major change are likely to be major change are likely to be

major change are likely to be disappointed. I do not think the

disappointed. I do not think the disappointed. I do not think the

Catholic Church will give up its Catholic Church will give up its

stance because one cardinal stance because one cardinal

stance because one cardinal archbishop was bound to have some

archbishop was bound to have some archbishop was bound to have some

kind of gay relationships, and kind of gay relationships, and

kind of gay relationships, and we're not sure what that consisted

we're not sure what that consisted we're not sure what that consisted

we're not sure what that consisted of, I do not think the Catholic

of, I do not think the Catholic of, I do not think the Catholic

of, I do not think the Catholic Church would give up its stand on

Church would give up its stand on Church would give up its stand on

Church would give up its stand on these things. It would be naive to

these things. It would be naive to these things. It would be naive to

think it would. But certainly, I think it would. But certainly, I

think it would. But certainly, I would like, on all sides, are

would like, on all sides, are considered discussion. A discussion

considered discussion. A discussion considered discussion. A discussion

about a subject, that he believes about a subject, that he believes

remains universally problematic. remains universally problematic.

remains universally problematic. remains universally problematic.

For sex and the Catholic Church, it For sex and the Catholic Church, it

For sex and the Catholic Church, it has been a long-standing difficulty.

has been a long-standing difficulty. has been a long-standing difficulty.

has been a long-standing difficulty. Between humanity and sex. It is not

Between humanity and sex. It is not Between humanity and sex. It is not

like liberal societies have handles like liberal societies have handles

like liberal societies have handles six any better. Women's there are

six any better. Women's there are six any better. Women's there are

this morning -- women's hour this this morning -- women's hour this

this morning -- women's hour this morning had a whole discussion on

morning had a whole discussion on morning had a whole discussion on

morning had a whole discussion on morning had a whole discussion on

page 3. I saw a youngster with a T- page 3. I saw a youngster with a T-

page 3. I saw a youngster with a T- page 3. I saw a youngster with a T-

shirt, about five or six years of shirt, about five or six years of

shirt, about five or six years of shirt, about five or six years of

age, which said, I like sexy Boys. age, which said, I like sexy Boys.

age, which said, I like sexy Boys. You cannot think that modern

You cannot think that modern You cannot think that modern

societies handle sex any better societies handle sex any better

societies handle sex any better than the Catholic church, no one

than the Catholic church, no one than the Catholic church, no one

than the Catholic church, no one does, because no one knows how to.

does, because no one knows how to. does, because no one knows how to.

Cardinal O'Brien has left the Cardinal O'Brien has left the

Cardinal O'Brien has left the country in the knowledge that, once

country in the knowledge that, once country in the knowledge that, once

and Newport is elected, he is and Newport is elected, he is

and Newport is elected, he is and Newport is elected, he is

likely to face a Vatican inquiry. - likely to face a Vatican inquiry. -

likely to face a Vatican inquiry. - likely to face a Vatican inquiry. -

- once the new pope is elected. The - once the new pope is elected. The

- once the new pope is elected. The Church will have to learn lessons

Church will have to learn lessons Church will have to learn lessons

recovering from a turbulent period recovering from a turbulent period

recovering from a turbulent period recovering from a turbulent period

in its history. But we cannot be in its history. But we cannot be

in its history. But we cannot be defeatist, my dear brothers and

defeatist, my dear brothers and defeatist, my dear brothers and

sisters. And I am not defeatist. sisters. And I am not defeatist.

sisters. And I am not defeatist. sisters. And I am not defeatist.

The answer to this sad episode is The answer to this sad episode is

The answer to this sad episode is The answer to this sad episode is

not to throw in the towel. We need not to throw in the towel. We need

not to throw in the towel. We need rather to renew a faithfulness to

rather to renew a faithfulness to rather to renew a faithfulness to

rather to renew a faithfulness to Jesus Christ and to go about our

Jesus Christ and to go about our Jesus Christ and to go about our

business humbly, but trustingly and joyfully.

joyfully. joyfully.

The global Catholic Church is, of The global Catholic Church is, of

The global Catholic Church is, of course, a flock without a shepherd.

course, a flock without a shepherd. course, a flock without a shepherd.

course, a flock without a shepherd. The conclave to elect the new pope

The conclave to elect the new pope The conclave to elect the new pope

The conclave to elect the new pope is likely to be held next week.

is likely to be held next week. is likely to be held next week.

Today in Rome, the college of Today in Rome, the college of

Today in Rome, the college of cardinals met for the first time

cardinals met for the first time cardinals met for the first time

and held prayers. The BBC's Allan and held prayers. The BBC's Allan

and held prayers. The BBC's Allan Little is in Vatican City. Before

Little is in Vatican City. Before Little is in Vatican City. Before

Little is in Vatican City. Before Little is in Vatican City. Before

we came on a year, I asked him what we came on a year, I asked him what

we came on a year, I asked him what the reaction there was to the

cardinal's statement. cardinal's statement.

cardinal's statement. cardinal's statement.

This has come at the worst possible This has come at the worst possible

This has come at the worst possible This has come at the worst possible

time for the church and there was time for the church and there was

time for the church and there was consternation here. I have had

consternation here. I have had consternation here. I have had

several conversations with app Moss, several conversations with app Moss,

several conversations with app Moss, priests, other clerics, -- with

priests, other clerics, -- with cardinals, priests, other clerics,

cardinals, priests, other clerics, cardinals, priests, other clerics,

cardinals, priests, other clerics, who have not wanted to believe the

who have not wanted to believe the who have not wanted to believe the

allegations. I kind of pained allegations. I kind of pained

allegations. I kind of pained reaction. Several people said to me,

reaction. Several people said to me, reaction. Several people said to me,

the timing is strange, there could the timing is strange, there could

the timing is strange, there could be some vendetta against the priest,

be some vendetta against the priest, be some vendetta against the priest,

a cardinal who spoke out so a cardinal who spoke out so

a cardinal who spoke out so vociferously in support of the

vociferously in support of the vociferously in support of the

Church's core values. The way Church's core values. The way

Church's core values. The way Cardinal O'Brien spoke about Kirk -

Cardinal O'Brien spoke about Kirk - Cardinal O'Brien spoke about Kirk -

- spoke about, sexuality and gay - spoke about, sexuality and gay

- spoke about, sexuality and gay marriage. But last night, when he

marriage. But last night, when he marriage. But last night, when he

made that state and admitting to made that state and admitting to

made that state and admitting to his own problems, that defence kind

his own problems, that defence kind his own problems, that defence kind

his own problems, that defence kind of collapse. Today was the day that

of collapse. Today was the day that of collapse. Today was the day that

the cardinal's gathered in their the cardinal's gathered in their

the cardinal's gathered in their general congregation to start the

general congregation to start the general congregation to start the

general congregation to start the process of electing a new pope. It

process of electing a new pope. It process of electing a new pope. It

process of electing a new pope. It has cast a shadow over the new --

has cast a shadow over the new -- has cast a shadow over the new --

over the whole proceedings and over the whole proceedings and

there is absolute consternation there is absolute consternation

there is absolute consternation there is absolute consternation

here. We have seen pictures of the here. We have seen pictures of the

here. We have seen pictures of the College of Cardinals meeting. How

College of Cardinals meeting. How College of Cardinals meeting. How

significant Willerby not to have significant Willerby not to have

significant Willerby not to have Keith O'Brien there, do you think?

Keith O'Brien there, do you think? Keith O'Brien there, do you think?

Last significant will it be. Last significant will it be.

Last significant will it be. puts the whole question of

puts the whole question of puts the whole question of

sexuality into the priesthood at sexuality into the priesthood at

sexuality into the priesthood at the forefront of the debate. I

the forefront of the debate. I the forefront of the debate. I

the forefront of the debate. I think there is a split opening up

think there is a split opening up think there is a split opening up

in the College of Cardinals between in the College of Cardinals between

in the College of Cardinals between the Italian blog, if you like,

the Italian blog, if you like, the Italian blog, if you like,

the Italian blog, if you like, those who spent the whole career in

those who spent the whole career in those who spent the whole career in

those who spent the whole career in Italy, many of them in the Vatican

Italy, many of them in the Vatican Italy, many of them in the Vatican

City behind me. A split between City behind me. A split between

City behind me. A split between them and men from much further

them and men from much further them and men from much further

afield, much more pastoral bishops afield, much more pastoral bishops

afield, much more pastoral bishops afield, much more pastoral bishops

and archbishops. I think there is a and archbishops. I think there is a

and archbishops. I think there is a division opening up between groups.

division opening up between groups. division opening up between groups.

The men of that centralised and The men of that centralised and

The men of that centralised and powerful civil service, they want

powerful civil service, they want powerful civil service, they want

powerful civil service, they want to get on with this conclave and

to get on with this conclave and to get on with this conclave and

have a swift and smooth succession. have a swift and smooth succession.

Cardinals from, especially Cardinals from, especially

Cardinals from, especially developing world, I say to slowdown,

developing world, I say to slowdown, developing world, I say to slowdown,

developing world, I say to slowdown, needing time to get to know each

needing time to get to know each needing time to get to know each

needing time to get to know each other, but they do not know the

other, but they do not know the other, but they do not know the

other, but they do not know the Roman system and the more time. The

Roman system and the more time. The Roman system and the more time. The

division that has emerged about the division that has emerged about the

division that has emerged about the timing of the conclave as

timing of the conclave as timing of the conclave as

symptomatic of a much broader symptomatic of a much broader

symptomatic of a much broader division in the church, between

division in the church, between division in the church, between

career bureaucrats and the much career bureaucrats and the much

more pastoral bishops. Cardinal more pastoral bishops. Cardinal

more pastoral bishops. Cardinal Keith O'Brien has left Scotland.

Keith O'Brien has left Scotland. Keith O'Brien has left Scotland.

But there is a Vatican inquiry But there is a Vatican inquiry

But there is a Vatican inquiry going on into the allegations

going on into the allegations going on into the allegations

against them. How will that against them. How will that

against them. How will that against them. How will that

progress and do you think it will progress and do you think it will

progress and do you think it will be made public? It is interesting,

be made public? It is interesting, be made public? It is interesting,

because we do not know anything because we do not know anything

because we do not know anything about this inquiry. We do Nannau

about this inquiry. We do Nannau about this inquiry. We do Nannau

about this inquiry. We do Nannau even if one has been ordered. When

even if one has been ordered. When even if one has been ordered. When

even if one has been ordered. When the papacy becomes vacant, -- We do

the papacy becomes vacant, -- We do the papacy becomes vacant, -- We do

the papacy becomes vacant, -- We do not even know if one has been

not even know if one has been not even know if one has been

ordered. When the papacy becomes ordered. When the papacy becomes

ordered. When the papacy becomes vacant, all of the orders within

vacant, all of the orders within vacant, all of the orders within

Vatican City, all of the people Vatican City, all of the people

Vatican City, all of the people holding those offices, before they

holding those offices, before they holding those offices, before they

holding those offices, before they step down, there is no need to

step down, there is no need to step down, there is no need to

order an inquiry before that. We order an inquiry before that. We

order an inquiry before that. We order an inquiry before that. We

are still there will be one. But are still there will be one. But

are still there will be one. But the Vatican spokesman has today

the Vatican spokesman has today the Vatican spokesman has today

battered away questions about this battered away questions about this

battered away questions about this battered away questions about this

inquiry, said he had not heard of inquiry, said he had not heard of

inquiry, said he had not heard of inquiry, said he had not heard of

one and did not know who ordered one and did not know who ordered

one and did not know who ordered one and did not know who ordered

one. The truth is there is no one one. The truth is there is no one

one. The truth is there is no one one. The truth is there is no one

to order one and it will not happen to order one and it will not happen

to order one and it will not happen to order one and it will not happen

until the new pope is in place and until the new pope is in place and

until the new pope is in place and until the new pope is in place and

all the posts are filled with new all the posts are filled with new

all the posts are filled with new people. We do know whether there

people. We do know whether there people. We do know whether there

people. We do know whether there will be an inquiry or if there is

will be an inquiry or if there is will be an inquiry or if there is

will be an inquiry or if there is one and what form it will take. If

one and what form it will take. If one and what form it will take. If

it will look into Cardinal it will look into Cardinal

O'Brien's activities, the O'Brien's activities, the

O'Brien's activities, the allegations against him, or into

allegations against him, or into allegations against him, or into

allegations against him, or into the question of who else knew how

the question of who else knew how the question of who else knew how

much and when in the Scottish much and when in the Scottish

much and when in the Scottish much and when in the Scottish

Catholic Church? We do not know the Catholic Church? We do not know the

Catholic Church? We do not know the Catholic Church? We do not know the

scope of any inquiry and will not scope of any inquiry and will not

scope of any inquiry and will not scope of any inquiry and will not

know that until the new pope is in know that until the new pope is in

know that until the new pope is in know that until the new pope is in

place. Even then, we will not know place. Even then, we will not know

place. Even then, we will not know place. Even then, we will not know

if the results will be made public. if the results will be made public.

if the results will be made public. if the results will be made public.

One thing is for sure, the Vatican One thing is for sure, the Vatican

One thing is for sure, the Vatican is not an institution that response

is not an institution that response is not an institution that response

or caves into public opinion polls or caves into public opinion polls

or caves into public opinion polls of Allan Little, thank you.

of Allan Little, thank you. of Allan Little, thank you.

of Allan Little, thank you. I am joined in the studio by an

I am joined in the studio by an I am joined in the studio by an

expert panel from inside and expert panel from inside and

outside the Catholic Church. outside the Catholic Church.

outside the Catholic Church. Catherine Deveney is a journalist

Catherine Deveney is a journalist Catherine Deveney is a journalist

from The Observer newspaper. She from The Observer newspaper. She

from The Observer newspaper. She broke the original story. John

broke the original story. John broke the original story. John

Haldane, a professor of moral Haldane, a professor of moral

philosophy at St Andrew's philosophy at St Andrew's

philosophy at St Andrew's University. He is also an adviser

University. He is also an adviser University. He is also an adviser

to the Vatican. The Reverend Martin to the Vatican. The Reverend Martin

to the Vatican. The Reverend Martin Johnston from the Church of

Johnston from the Church of Johnston from the Church of

Scotland is spearheading a key Scotland is spearheading a key

anti-poverty initiative. Liz Leydon anti-poverty initiative. Liz Leydon

anti-poverty initiative. Liz Leydon is the editor of the Scottish

is the editor of the Scottish is the editor of the Scottish

Catholic Observer. And James Conroy Catholic Observer. And James Conroy

Catholic Observer. And James Conroy is professor of religious education

is professor of religious education is professor of religious education

at Glasgow University. Thank you at Glasgow University. Thank you

at Glasgow University. Thank you Did you believe the story would

Did you believe the story would Did you believe the story would

Did you believe the story would have such an impact? I think all

have such an impact? I think all have such an impact? I think all

have such an impact? I think all busily that it would have an impact,

busily that it would have an impact, busily that it would have an impact,

busily that it would have an impact, but there was a doubt as to whether

but there was a doubt as to whether but there was a doubt as to whether

but there was a doubt as to whether we would be able to publish the

we would be able to publish the we would be able to publish the

truth. People think it is simple, truth. People think it is simple,

truth. People think it is simple, truth. People think it is simple,

but it is often quite a complicated but it is often quite a complicated

but it is often quite a complicated process. It has been a difficult

process. It has been a difficult process. It has been a difficult

process. It has been a difficult week for the four men in question.

week for the four men in question. week for the four men in question.

week for the four men in question. The ball for his has been on what

The ball for his has been on what The ball for his has been on what

The ball for his has been on what has been here more to four coming

has been here more to four coming has been here more to four coming

has been here more to four coming for work done their story has been

for work done their story has been for work done their story has been

doubted. It has been a traumatic doubted. It has been a traumatic

doubted. It has been a traumatic doubted. It has been a traumatic

week for them. I think there is a week for them. I think there is a

week for them. I think there is a mixture of Cardinal O'Brien and

mixture of Cardinal O'Brien and mixture of Cardinal O'Brien and

also pleased that they have been also pleased that they have been

also pleased that they have been also pleased that they have been

vindicated, but also a bit of anger vindicated, but also a bit of anger

vindicated, but also a bit of anger vindicated, but also a bit of anger

that we have come to where we are. that we have come to where we are.

that we have come to where we are. that we have come to where we are.

There is the danger that this would There is the danger that this would

There is the danger that this would reaches a new level of hypocrisy

reaches a new level of hypocrisy reaches a new level of hypocrisy

within the Cartholic Church. This within the Cartholic Church. This

within the Cartholic Church. This idea that we are all shell-shocked

idea that we are all shell-shocked idea that we are all shell-shocked

idea that we are all shell-shocked by this and I do not think anybody

by this and I do not think anybody by this and I do not think anybody

by this and I do not think anybody would be naive enough to think that

would be naive enough to think that would be naive enough to think that

would be naive enough to think that he is the only senior member of the

he is the only senior member of the he is the only senior member of the

week Cartholic Church in this week Cartholic Church in this

week Cartholic Church in this week Cartholic Church in this

position. I think there will be a position. I think there will be a

position. I think there will be a lot of senior figures very uneasy

lot of senior figures very uneasy lot of senior figures very uneasy

lot of senior figures very uneasy now. The key facts that you brought

now. The key facts that you brought now. The key facts that you brought

now. The key facts that you brought out into the public is this? Not, I

out into the public is this? Not, I out into the public is this? Not, I

out into the public is this? Not, I was very careful that we did not

was very careful that we did not was very careful that we did not

publish anything that could not be publish anything that could not be

publish anything that could not be substantiated. I have spoken to the

substantiated. I have spoken to the substantiated. I have spoken to the

people involved and I was totally people involved and I was totally

people involved and I was totally convinced of their accuracy and

convinced of their accuracy and convinced of their accuracy and

truth. Obviously, in the course of truth. Obviously, in the course of

truth. Obviously, in the course of truth. Obviously, in the course of

the story like this you get to here the story like this you get to here

the story like this you get to here the story like this you get to here

other things, but I did not hear other things, but I did not hear

other things, but I did not hear anything which could be completely

anything which could be completely anything which could be completely

substantiated, and his story was substantiated, and his story was

substantiated, and his story was too important to be contaminated by

too important to be contaminated by too important to be contaminated by

eight tittle-tattle. But I am eight tittle-tattle. But I am

eight tittle-tattle. But I am absolutely sure that Cardinal Keith

absolutely sure that Cardinal Keith absolutely sure that Cardinal Keith

O'Brien is not unique. The size O'Brien is not unique. The size

O'Brien is not unique. The size been talk about as the greatest

been talk about as the greatest been talk about as the greatest

prizes for the Catholic Church prizes for the Catholic Church

prizes for the Catholic Church since the Reformation. How do you

since the Reformation. How do you since the Reformation. How do you

since the Reformation. How do you view it? For what it is worth,

view it? For what it is worth, view it? For what it is worth,

there were huge divisions and the there were huge divisions and the

there were huge divisions and the Catholic Church in the 18th century.

Catholic Church in the 18th century. Catholic Church in the 18th century.

Catholic Church in the 18th century. So, I am not so sure about the

So, I am not so sure about the greatest crisis since the

greatest crisis since the Reformation, but clearly,

Reformation, but clearly, Reformation, but clearly,

Katharina's story and the fall-out Katharina's story and the fall-out

Katharina's story and the fall-out from that has left many people

from that has left many people from that has left many people

stunned, but what matters now is stunned, but what matters now is

stunned, but what matters now is not just cleaning up this

not just cleaning up this particular mess, but looking

particular mess, but looking particular mess, but looking

forward to the future. Of course, forward to the future. Of course,

forward to the future. Of course, forward to the future. Of course,

there was a story in the public there was a story in the public

there was a story in the public there was a story in the public

domain, but there is a belief that domain, but there is a belief that

domain, but there is a belief that domain, but there is a belief that

people knew all about it and it was people knew all about it and it was

people knew all about it and it was people knew all about it and it was

kept secret. The two of us know the kept secret. The two of us know the

kept secret. The two of us know the kept secret. The two of us know the

details of this, which is that the details of this, which is that the

details of this, which is that the nature of these allegations could

nature of these allegations could nature of these allegations could

nature of these allegations could not simply be dealt with by the

not simply be dealt with by the not simply be dealt with by the

Scottish Catholic Church because it Scottish Catholic Church because it

Scottish Catholic Church because it did was dealing with the senior

did was dealing with the senior did was dealing with the senior

did was dealing with the senior member of it, so it was important

member of it, so it was important member of it, so it was important

that any investigation of this had that any investigation of this had

that any investigation of this had that any investigation of this had

to come from the Vatican. I spoke to come from the Vatican. I spoke

to come from the Vatican. I spoke to come from the Vatican. I spoke

to a couple of figures who actually to a couple of figures who actually

to a couple of figures who actually had begun to investigate this. I

had begun to investigate this. I believe that the investigations

believe that the investigations believe that the investigations

believe that the investigations where due to start back in October

where due to start back in October where due to start back in October

and whether the results of that and whether the results of that

and whether the results of that and whether the results of that

become public remains to be seen. become public remains to be seen.

become public remains to be seen. become public remains to be seen.

think it is quite inaccurate to say think it is quite inaccurate to say

think it is quite inaccurate to say that the Catholic Church in

that the Catholic Church in that the Catholic Church in

Scotland did not know what was Scotland did not know what was

Scotland did not know what was going on. There was an intermediate

going on. There was an intermediate going on. There was an intermediate

very from the Catholic Church who very from the Catholic Church who

very from the Catholic Church who took these allegations to the

took these allegations to the took these allegations to the

Vatican. The allegations were put Vatican. The allegations were put

Vatican. The allegations were put Vatican. The allegations were put

to them in writing and that is the to them in writing and that is the

to them in writing and that is the disappointing element of the story

disappointing element of the story disappointing element of the story

disappointing element of the story that we are seeing again that when

that we are seeing again that when that we are seeing again that when

the churches confronted by wrong the churches confronted by wrong

the churches confronted by wrong doing, instead of listening to the

doing, instead of listening to the individuals involved, the instinct

individuals involved, the instinct individuals involved, the instinct

individuals involved, the instinct is to cover up to protect the

is to cover up to protect the is to cover up to protect the

institution. That is a very institution. That is a very

institution. That is a very dangerous practice. It is rather

dangerous practice. It is rather complicated, but by understanding

complicated, but by understanding complicated, but by understanding

is that the accusations to me is that the accusations to me

is that the accusations to me church where made last Saturday.

church where made last Saturday. church where made last Saturday.

They were made prior to Saturday They were made prior to Saturday

They were made prior to Saturday and the publication of the paper

and the publication of the paper and the publication of the paper

and the publication of the paper the following day. No, I know about

the following day. No, I know about the following day. No, I know about

the situation of the intermediate But that was to take the complaints

But that was to take the complaints But that was to take the complaints

procedure directly to Rome, rather procedure directly to Rome, rather

procedure directly to Rome, rather than start an internal procedure

than start an internal procedure than start an internal procedure

within the Scottish Catholic Church. within the Scottish Catholic Church.

within the Scottish Catholic Church. within the Scottish Catholic Church.

For the Church to say that they did For the Church to say that they did

For the Church to say that they did not have those allegations was

not have those allegations was not have those allegations was

simply not true. The Adam and simply not true. The Adam and

simply not true. The Adam and simply not true. The Adam and

writing. They are also, at the end, writing. They are also, at the end,

writing. They are also, at the end, went specific allegations were laid

went specific allegations were laid went specific allegations were laid

went specific allegations were laid out, there was a question at the

out, there was a question at the out, there was a question at the

out, there was a question at the end which was, is it true that the

end which was, is it true that the end which was, is it true that the

cardinal had broken his vow of cardinal had broken his vow of

cardinal had broken his vow of celibacy? You could not yet clear

celibacy? You could not yet clear celibacy? You could not yet clear

than that. We were hearing people than that. We were hearing people

than that. We were hearing people coming out of mass yesterday simply

coming out of mass yesterday simply coming out of mass yesterday simply

coming out of mass yesterday simply wear any state of shock at the

wear any state of shock at the wear any state of shock at the

wear any state of shock at the moment. I think that is true, given

moment. I think that is true, given moment. I think that is true, given

moment. I think that is true, given me many years of strong and 4th

me many years of strong and 4th me many years of strong and 4th

Light leadership of Keith O'Brien, Light leadership of Keith O'Brien,

Light leadership of Keith O'Brien, Light leadership of Keith O'Brien,

they simply did not want to believe they simply did not want to believe

they simply did not want to believe they simply did not want to believe

this. But to say they will have this. But to say they will have

this. But to say they will have doubts about their faith because of

doubts about their faith because of doubts about their faith because of

doubts about their faith because of this is taking it easy step too far.

this is taking it easy step too far. this is taking it easy step too far.

One said, you would think that One said, you would think that

Christianity revolved around one Christianity revolved around one

Christianity revolved around one man. Then the set, actually, it

man. Then the set, actually, it man. Then the set, actually, it

does, it revolves around Jesus does, it revolves around Jesus

does, it revolves around Jesus does, it revolves around Jesus

Christ. That put a lot of things in Christ. That put a lot of things in

Christ. That put a lot of things in Christ. That put a lot of things in

perspective for me. There is a lot perspective for me. There is a lot

perspective for me. There is a lot perspective for me. There is a lot

of pain coming from this and a lot of pain coming from this and a lot

of pain coming from this and a lot of questions as to why Catholics

of questions as to why Catholics of questions as to why Catholics

and the clergy in Scotland had and the clergy in Scotland had

and the clergy in Scotland had about this for the first time

about this for the first time about this for the first time

through the secular media. There through the secular media. There

through the secular media. There are questions as to why letters

are questions as to why letters are questions as to why letters

were not sent with the greater were not sent with the greater

were not sent with the greater were not sent with the greater

explanation as to what was going on. explanation as to what was going on.

explanation as to what was going on. Ultimately, it was something that

Ultimately, it was something that Ultimately, it was something that

Ultimately, it was something that people do not want to believe and

people do not want to believe and people do not want to believe and

people do not want to believe and now it has been confirmed, there is

now it has been confirmed, there is now it has been confirmed, there is

now it has been confirmed, there is going to be quite a process to talk

going to be quite a process to talk going to be quite a process to talk

through. On a very personal level, through. On a very personal level,

through. On a very personal level, through. On a very personal level,

I wonder what is to be keen to I wonder what is to be keen to

I wonder what is to be keen to I wonder what is to be keen to

judging this in the court of public judging this in the court of public

judging this in the court of public opinion when an inquiry is already

opinion when an inquiry is already opinion when an inquiry is already

under way. A suppose it is under way. A suppose it is

important for the Scottish important for the Scottish

important for the Scottish Cartholic Church to be open about

Cartholic Church to be open about Cartholic Church to be open about

this because of past mistakes, this because of past mistakes,

this because of past mistakes, where they have been accused of

where they have been accused of where they have been accused of

covering up? A of course, covering up? A of course,

covering up? A of course, institutions are being put under

institutions are being put under institutions are being put under

great pressure to be open about great pressure to be open about

great pressure to be open about great pressure to be open about

everything. But if you look at ABB everything. But if you look at ABB

everything. But if you look at ABB everything. But if you look at ABB

see in the last few months or the see in the last few months or the

see in the last few months or the Liberal Democrats in recent weeks,

Liberal Democrats in recent weeks, Liberal Democrats in recent weeks,

these things have the sort of these things have the sort of

these things have the sort of pattern. That is that certain

pattern. That is that certain accusations Ahmed, it is

accusations Ahmed, it is accusations Ahmed, it is

established there may be some established there may be some

established there may be some established there may be some

voracity and these and then it is, voracity and these and then it is,

voracity and these and then it is, voracity and these and then it is,

the question of how these are dealt the question of how these are dealt

the question of how these are dealt the question of how these are dealt

with. It does not mean they are with. It does not mean they are

necessarily malignant in their necessarily malignant in their

necessarily malignant in their necessarily malignant in their

intent. It is some were just the intent. It is some were just the

intent. It is some were just the way seems things seem to happen.

way seems things seem to happen. way seems things seem to happen.

Reverend, you are from a different Reverend, you are from a different

Reverend, you are from a different denomination, but you must up being

denomination, but you must up being denomination, but you must up being

denomination, but you must up being shot by this? Yes, people from the

shot by this? Yes, people from the shot by this? Yes, people from the

Church of Scotland would be equally Church of Scotland would be equally

Church of Scotland would be equally as shocked about this as many

as shocked about this as many as shocked about this as many

others. I think the archbishop was others. I think the archbishop was

others. I think the archbishop was others. I think the archbishop was

right in saying that this opens the right in saying that this opens the

right in saying that this opens the Church to issues of it being

Church to issues of it being Church to issues of it being

accused of hypocrisy. It is how accused of hypocrisy. It is how

accused of hypocrisy. It is how they choose to deal with these

they choose to deal with these they choose to deal with these

accusations of hypocrisy which will accusations of hypocrisy which will

accusations of hypocrisy which will give us some authenticity as we

give us some authenticity as we give us some authenticity as we

give us some authenticity as we move forward from this. It seems to

move forward from this. It seems to move forward from this. It seems to

move forward from this. It seems to me that we need to be St, yes,

me that we need to be St, yes, me that we need to be St, yes,

me that we need to be St, yes, mistakes had been made, but it is

mistakes had been made, but it is mistakes had been made, but it is

not simply the Church of Scotland's not simply the Church of Scotland's

not simply the Church of Scotland's not simply the Church of Scotland's

mission to say it is not our mission to say it is not our

mission to say it is not our mission to say it is not our

mistake, but for us to look at this mistake, but for us to look at this

mistake, but for us to look at this as fellow Christians about what we

as fellow Christians about what we as fellow Christians about what we

as fellow Christians about what we hold dear it to work together to

hold dear it to work together to hold dear it to work together to

make Scotland a better place. make Scotland a better place.

make Scotland a better place. words of the Archbishop seeing the

words of the Archbishop seeing the words of the Archbishop seeing the

moral authority of the Church may moral authority of the Church may

moral authority of the Church may have been dealt the mortal blow?

have been dealt the mortal blow? have been dealt the mortal blow?

have been dealt the mortal blow? Yes, it comes within the context of

Yes, it comes within the context of Yes, it comes within the context of

many other challenges. It would be many other challenges. It would be

many other challenges. It would be wrong to pretend otherwise. I think

wrong to pretend otherwise. I think wrong to pretend otherwise. I think

it was right that Archbishop Philip it was right that Archbishop Philip

Tartaglia, who preached in Tartaglia, who preached in

Tartaglia, who preached in Edinburgh yesterday and today in

Edinburgh yesterday and today in Edinburgh yesterday and today in

Glasgow, said that. The church Glasgow, said that. The church

Glasgow, said that. The church Glasgow, said that. The church

leadership as going to have to look leadership as going to have to look

leadership as going to have to look leadership as going to have to look

hard at where they go from here. hard at where they go from here.

hard at where they go from here. hard at where they go from here.

Inevitably, there will be E P it Inevitably, there will be E P it

Inevitably, there will be E P it Inevitably, there will be E P it

got Macro, there will be a period got Macro, there will be a period

got Macro, there will be a period got Macro, there will be a period

of reflection. I think it will be of reflection. I think it will be

of reflection. I think it will be of reflection. I think it will be

some time before be see how the some time before be see how the

some time before be see how the some time before be see how the

Church will not shape its future as Church will not shape its future as

Church will not shape its future as Church will not shape its future as

it comes out of this. We are also it comes out of this. We are also

it comes out of this. We are also joined by Tom French of the

joined by Tom French of the Equalities Network. Quite a

Equalities Network. Quite a shocking statement yesterday it.

shocking statement yesterday it. shocking statement yesterday it.

shocking statement yesterday it. What did you feel? There have been

What did you feel? There have been accusations of rank hypocrisy

accusations of rank hypocrisy accusations of rank hypocrisy

levelled against the church. People levelled against the church. People

levelled against the church. People will level that charged and there

will level that charged and there will level that charged and there

is circlet a difference between is circlet a difference between

is circlet a difference between what the car and always preaching

what the car and always preaching what the car and always preaching

what the car and always preaching on one hand and what he was doing,

on one hand and what he was doing, on one hand and what he was doing,

on one hand and what he was doing, on the other. But I am not

on the other. But I am not on the other. But I am not

interested in points-scoring, I am interested in points-scoring, I am

interested in points-scoring, I am interested in points-scoring, I am

interested in how we move for what interested in how we move for what

interested in how we move for what interested in how we move for what

from this now. I think lesbian and from this now. I think lesbian and

from this now. I think lesbian and gay people in Scotland, and many

gay people in Scotland, and many gay people in Scotland, and many

Catholics, will think that maybe Catholics, will think that maybe

Catholics, will think that maybe the Church should shift away their

the Church should shift away their the Church should shift away their

balance from sexuality and get back balance from sexuality and get back

balance from sexuality and get back to other core things which make

to other core things which make to other core things which make

people want to join the Church, people want to join the Church,

people want to join the Church, such as poverty and social justice.

such as poverty and social justice. such as poverty and social justice.

such as poverty and social justice. Just before we we did it out to

Just before we we did it out to Just before we we did it out to

Just before we we did it out to that, the MSPs said that there has

that, the MSPs said that there has that, the MSPs said that there has

been vicious language used against been vicious language used against

been vicious language used against been vicious language used against

gay people. Are you looking for an gay people. Are you looking for an

gay people. Are you looking for an gay people. Are you looking for an

apology? No, I do not think it is apology? No, I do not think it is

apology? No, I do not think it is apology? No, I do not think it is

about that. I think it is about about that. I think it is about

about that. I think it is about moving forward. It is about what

moving forward. It is about what moving forward. It is about what

the Church's position will be in the Church's position will be in

the Church's position will be in the Church's position will be in

the future. Is it still going to be the future. Is it still going to be

the future. Is it still going to be very vocally against the and

very vocally against the and very vocally against the and

very vocally against the and lesbian people or is it going to

lesbian people or is it going to lesbian people or is it going to

lesbian people or is it going to focus more than the likes of social

focus more than the likes of social focus more than the likes of social

justice? Due you think the Catholic justice? Due you think the Catholic

justice? Due you think the Catholic justice? Due you think the Catholic

Church could shift its focus to the Church could shift its focus to the

Church could shift its focus to the likes of social justice and climate

likes of social justice and climate likes of social justice and climate

likes of social justice and climate change and so on. There is the

change and so on. There is the change and so on. There is the

distinction to be made of doctrine distinction to be made of doctrine

distinction to be made of doctrine distinction to be made of doctrine

will claims made by the Church and will claims made by the Church and

will claims made by the Church and pastoral claims. It is quite clear

pastoral claims. It is quite clear pastoral claims. It is quite clear

sometimes that the offices of the sometimes that the offices of the

sometimes that the offices of the Church have sometimes emphasise the

Church have sometimes emphasise the Church have sometimes emphasise the

doctrine and have not gauged doctrine and have not gauged

effectively enough or communicated effectively enough or communicated

effectively enough or communicated enough their pastoral concern for

enough their pastoral concern for supporting other aspects of

supporting other aspects of supporting other aspects of

humanity. This is a critical point humanity. This is a critical point

humanity. This is a critical point humanity. This is a critical point

for the Catholic Church, as it is for the Catholic Church, as it is

for the Catholic Church, as it is for other Christian churches, there

for other Christian churches, there for other Christian churches, there

has to be recognition that the has to be recognition that the

world is fundamentally fragile. world is fundamentally fragile.

world is fundamentally fragile. world is fundamentally fragile.

They have not handled as well. They They have not handled as well. They

They have not handled as well. They have not handled the pastoral

have not handled the pastoral have not handled the pastoral

issues well, either. But that does issues well, either. But that does

issues well, either. But that does not preclude the necessity to

not preclude the necessity to not preclude the necessity to

propagate ideal visions of how many propagate ideal visions of how many

propagate ideal visions of how many conduct herself. I do not know

conduct herself. I do not know conduct herself. I do not know

conduct herself. I do not know anybody in my circle he does not

anybody in my circle he does not anybody in my circle he does not

anybody in my circle he does not know anyone who is not divorced. If

know anyone who is not divorced. If know anyone who is not divorced. If

know anyone who is not divorced. If know anyone who is not divorced. If

I said to them, if I at the time I said to them, if I at the time

I said to them, if I at the time I said to them, if I at the time

you it ended into marriage, to due you it ended into marriage, to due

you it ended into marriage, to due expected to end in failure? Of

expected to end in failure? Of Why do you think the Catholic

Why do you think the Catholic Church focused on homosexuality,

Church focused on homosexuality, Church focused on homosexuality,

rather than divorce? Many people rather than divorce? Many people

rather than divorce? Many people might be happy with what has

might be happy with what has might be happy with what has

happened to the Cardinal. happened to the Cardinal.

happened to the Cardinal. cannot legislate for people being

cannot legislate for people being cannot legislate for people being

cannot legislate for people being happy, that is part of their broken

happy, that is part of their broken happy, that is part of their broken

happy, that is part of their broken this. It seems to me that these

this. It seems to me that these this. It seems to me that these

things are cyclical. The issue was things are cyclical. The issue was

things are cyclical. The issue was in the public space, the Catholic

in the public space, the Catholic in the public space, the Catholic

Church had a position about that. Church had a position about that.

Church had a position about that. They could hardly ignore it. But

They could hardly ignore it. But They could hardly ignore it. But

the that engagement was cooked well the that engagement was cooked well

the that engagement was cooked well is another question. -- whether

is another question. -- whether is another question. -- whether

that engagement was given a that engagement was given a

that engagement was given a Crosswell is another question. But

Crosswell is another question. But Crosswell is another question. But

Crosswell is another question. But that does not mean they could not

that does not mean they could not that does not mean they could not

be engaged in public debate. be engaged in public debate.

be engaged in public debate. Leydon, do you think they were

Leydon, do you think they were Leydon, do you think they were

reflecting what ordinary mass cause reflecting what ordinary mass cause

reflecting what ordinary mass cause were thinking when hitting out at

were thinking when hitting out at were thinking when hitting out at

equal marriage? What did ordinary equal marriage? What did ordinary

equal marriage? What did ordinary Catholics think? Many people who

Catholics think? Many people who are perhaps nominally Catholic,

are perhaps nominally Catholic, are perhaps nominally Catholic,

perhaps not practising, wanted the perhaps not practising, wanted the

perhaps not practising, wanted the perhaps not practising, wanted the

issue to go away. It was a very issue to go away. It was a very

issue to go away. It was a very difficult issue. But as has just

difficult issue. But as has just difficult issue. But as has just

been pointed out, these are been pointed out, these are

difficult times and difficult difficult times and difficult

difficult times and difficult difficult times and difficult

issues. It is so important to have issues. It is so important to have

issues. It is so important to have ideals. Because if we take that

ideals. Because if we take that ideals. Because if we take that

away, what have we replacing it away, what have we replacing it

with? Essentially, the Catholic with? Essentially, the Catholic

with? Essentially, the Catholic with? Essentially, the Catholic

Church spoke out and was not alone. Church spoke out and was not alone.

There are organisations who There are organisations who

There are organisations who essentially are a rainbow coalition,

essentially are a rainbow coalition, essentially are a rainbow coalition,

essentially are a rainbow coalition, if you like, of people of fates

if you like, of people of fates if you like, of people of fates

saying this is something they do saying this is something they do

saying this is something they do saying this is something they do

not believe in. Under a lot of not believe in. Under a lot of

discussion about people speaking discussion about people speaking

discussion about people speaking out against almost sexual rights. I

out against almost sexual rights. I out against almost sexual rights. I

do not thanks speaking out for do not thanks speaking out for

traditional marriage automatically traditional marriage automatically

traditional marriage automatically means you are speaking out against

means you are speaking out against means you are speaking out against

homosexual rights. It just so homosexual rights. It just so

homosexual rights. It just so happens that classes on this

happens that classes on this happens that classes on this

particular issue and it has been particular issue and it has been

particular issue and it has been pointed out there is a difference

pointed out there is a difference pointed out there is a difference

between a line of doctrine and between a line of doctrine and

between a line of doctrine and pastoral care and perhaps that two

pastoral care and perhaps that two pastoral care and perhaps that two

pastoral care and perhaps that two did not go hand in hand. That is

did not go hand in hand. That is did not go hand in hand. That is

something that perhaps needs to be something that perhaps needs to be

something that perhaps needs to be something that perhaps needs to be

looked and when people look at what looked and when people look at what

looked and when people look at what looked and when people look at what

is happening here in the Church in is happening here in the Church in

is happening here in the Church in Scotland. Martin Johnston, many in

Scotland. Martin Johnston, many in Scotland. Martin Johnston, many in

the Church of Scotland welcomed the Church of Scotland welcomed

the Church of Scotland welcomed what the Catholic Church was saying

what the Catholic Church was saying what the Catholic Church was saying

about equal marriage. And in the about equal marriage. And in the

about equal marriage. And in the Church of Scotland, there was maybe

Church of Scotland, there was maybe Church of Scotland, there was maybe

a strong voice missing? The Church a strong voice missing? The Church

a strong voice missing? The Church of Scotland, like every other

of Scotland, like every other of Scotland, like every other

institution, like every other part institution, like every other part

institution, like every other part of Scotland, is struggling with

of Scotland, is struggling with of Scotland, is struggling with

of Scotland, is struggling with this issue. Tom Wort was right in

this issue. Tom Wort was right in this issue. Tom Wort was right in

this issue. Tom Wort was right in what he was saying. -- he was right.

what he was saying. -- he was right. what he was saying. -- he was right.

what he was saying. -- he was right. There is a need to shift the focus

There is a need to shift the focus There is a need to shift the focus

There is a need to shift the focus and for the churches Together to be

and for the churches Together to be and for the churches Together to be

focusing on core of things, those focusing on core of things, those

focusing on core of things, those focusing on core of things, those

that that the heart of the Gospel, that that the heart of the Gospel,

that that the heart of the Gospel, about social justice, about how we

about social justice, about how we about social justice, about how we

treat the poorest and most treat the poorest and most

treat the poorest and most marginalised within society. For in

marginalised within society. For in marginalised within society. For in

that space, the church, every day, that space, the church, every day,

that space, the church, every day, in the thousands of acts of

in the thousands of acts of in the thousands of acts of

kindness, that it is involved in kindness, that it is involved in

kindness, that it is involved in and its hundreds of thousands of

and its hundreds of thousands of and its hundreds of thousands of

members are involved in, there are members are involved in, there are

members are involved in, there are the things which continue to give

the things which continue to give the things which continue to give

the church authenticity in Scotland. the church authenticity in Scotland.

the church authenticity in Scotland. Catherine, the menu was speaking to,

Catherine, the menu was speaking to, Catherine, the menu was speaking to,

the victims or alleged victims of the victims or alleged victims of

inappropriate behaviour, what did inappropriate behaviour, what did

inappropriate behaviour, what did they have to say about this

they have to say about this they have to say about this

apparent hypocrisy? One of them apparent hypocrisy? One of them

apparent hypocrisy? One of them apparent hypocrisy? One of them

said it was not a witch hunt. said it was not a witch hunt.

said it was not a witch hunt. Absolutely not. The problem for the

Absolutely not. The problem for the Absolutely not. The problem for the

charge is of moral authority. We charge is of moral authority. We

charge is of moral authority. We will never know when the Catholic,

will never know when the Catholic, will never know when the Catholic,

senior Catholic clergy speak out senior Catholic clergy speak out

senior Catholic clergy speak out about these issues, whether they

about these issues, whether they about these issues, whether they

are really meaning them. That is are really meaning them. That is

are really meaning them. That is the problem for the Catholic Church.

the problem for the Catholic Church. the problem for the Catholic Church.

the problem for the Catholic Church. We do not know whether this is just

We do not know whether this is just We do not know whether this is just

the public manifestation or whether the public manifestation or whether

the public manifestation or whether what they are actually privately

what they are actually privately what they are actually privately

believing and practising. That is believing and practising. That is

believing and practising. That is the difficulty. For the men

the difficulty. For the men the difficulty. For the men

involved in this, people forget involved in this, people forget

involved in this, people forget just how very difficult this has

just how very difficult this has just how very difficult this has

been for them, and how courageous been for them, and how courageous

been for them, and how courageous been for them, and how courageous

they have had to be against an they have had to be against an

institution which governs their institution which governs their

institution which governs their institution which governs their

lives. You do not do that lightly lives. You do not do that lightly

lives. You do not do that lightly lives. You do not do that lightly

and do not do that if you are and do not do that if you are

and do not do that if you are trying to destroy the charge. They

trying to destroy the charge. They trying to destroy the charge. They

want to build something within the want to build something within the

want to build something within the church. -- destroy the church. They

church. -- destroy the church. They church. -- destroy the church. They

are wanting a new openness and are wanting a new openness and

are wanting a new openness and transparency. And one of the

transparency. And one of the transparency. And one of the

transparency. And one of the reasons it is very important we do

reasons it is very important we do reasons it is very important we do

not just pretend that Keith O'Brien not just pretend that Keith O'Brien

not just pretend that Keith O'Brien not just pretend that Keith O'Brien

not just pretend that Keith O'Brien is the only one is that, if you do

is the only one is that, if you do is the only one is that, if you do

is the only one is that, if you do that, you have this period of focus

that, you have this period of focus that, you have this period of focus

that, you have this period of focus on that one issue and then we can

on that one issue and then we can on that one issue and then we can

on that one issue and then we can sweep it under the carpet and say,

sweep it under the carpet and say, sweep it under the carpet and say,

sweep it under the carpet and say, thank goodness that is gone, we can

thank goodness that is gone, we can thank goodness that is gone, we can

go back to normal. The Catholic go back to normal. The Catholic

go back to normal. The Catholic go back to normal. The Catholic

Church cannot go back to normal. It Church cannot go back to normal. It

Church cannot go back to normal. It is important it does not. Professor

is important it does not. Professor is important it does not. Professor

Haldane, just try to recapture that Haldane, just try to recapture that

Haldane, just try to recapture that moral authority, which some may

moral authority, which some may moral authority, which some may

moral authority, which some may have the church did not have, but

have the church did not have, but have the church did not have, but

try to recapture that moral try to recapture that moral

try to recapture that moral authority over the coming weeks,

authority over the coming weeks, authority over the coming weeks,

authority over the coming weeks, months and years is going to be

months and years is going to be months and years is going to be

difficult? It will be a tremendous difficult? It will be a tremendous

difficult? It will be a tremendous challenge. Caton said, -- captain

challenge. Caton said, -- captain challenge. Caton said, -- captain

challenge. Caton said, -- captain said, what do we do with any

said, what do we do with any said, what do we do with any

clergyman that speaks out? We have clergyman that speaks out? We have

seen this with different seen this with different

professional groups. There have professional groups. There have

professional groups. There have been bad journalists, not all of

been bad journalists, not all of been bad journalists, not all of

them are bad. But politicians and them are bad. But politicians and

them are bad. But politicians and them are bad. But politicians and

so on. In general, there would be a so on. In general, there would be a

so on. In general, there would be a so on. In general, there would be a

problem that, as a result of bad problem that, as a result of bad

problem that, as a result of bad problems, we simply could not trust

problems, we simply could not trust problems, we simply could not trust

problems, we simply could not trust the total. This is a more prosaic -

the total. This is a more prosaic - the total. This is a more prosaic -

the total. This is a more prosaic - - this is a more pervasive issue

- this is a more pervasive issue - this is a more pervasive issue

about the loss of trust in about the loss of trust in

about the loss of trust in about the loss of trust in

institutions. What we have to do in institutions. What we have to do in

institutions. What we have to do in life is try to exercise discernment

life is try to exercise discernment life is try to exercise discernment

life is try to exercise discernment and good judgment. If you look at

and good judgment. If you look at and good judgment. If you look at

these men, and the authenticity of these men, and the authenticity of

these men, and the authenticity of what there saying, the example of

what there saying, the example of what there saying, the example of

what there saying, the example of the force is very telling some ways.

the force is very telling some ways. the force is very telling some ways.

The phenomenon is exactly the same. The phenomenon is exactly the same.

The phenomenon is exactly the same. So what happened is social changes

So what happened is social changes So what happened is social changes

in society surrounding the church in society surrounding the church

in society surrounding the church meant that ideas about lifelong

meant that ideas about lifelong meant that ideas about lifelong

marriage and so on slowly were marriage and so on slowly were

marriage and so on slowly were eroded. The Catholic Church held,

eroded. The Catholic Church held, eroded. The Catholic Church held,

eroded. The Catholic Church held, and continues to hold, to a certain

and continues to hold, to a certain and continues to hold, to a certain

and continues to hold, to a certain view, which it clearly is out of

view, which it clearly is out of view, which it clearly is out of

step with society, and the same step with society, and the same

step with society, and the same thing has happened with regard to

thing has happened with regard to thing has happened with regard to

same-sex relationships. The are two same-sex relationships. The are two

possibilities. Possibly three. One possibilities. Possibly three. One

possibilities. Possibly three. One possibilities. Possibly three. One

is the charge says what it has is the charge says what it has

is the charge says what it has always says, two is it abandons

always says, two is it abandons always says, two is it abandons

always says, two is it abandons what it has said, which it will not

what it has said, which it will not what it has said, which it will not

what it has said, which it will not what it has said, which it will not

do, and three is to work out how it do, and three is to work out how it

mediates the relationship between mediates the relationship between

mediates the relationship between what it proposes is it its

what it proposes is it its what it proposes is it its

understanding of the goods of human understanding of the goods of human

understanding of the goods of human life and treating the realities

life and treating the realities life and treating the realities

that the society around it has that the society around it has

that the society around it has that the society around it has

changed. It has had to do that with changed. It has had to do that with

changed. It has had to do that with divorce, still struggles to do that,

divorce, still struggles to do that, divorce, still struggles to do that,

divorce, still struggles to do that, and had to do that with the

and had to do that with the question of same-sex relationships.

question of same-sex relationships. question of same-sex relationships.

question of same-sex relationships. It is important to see there would

It is important to see there would It is important to see there would

It is important to see there would be no role for the church if it

be no role for the church if it be no role for the church if it

simply retreated into the margins simply retreated into the margins

simply retreated into the margins of social welfare provision that

of social welfare provision that non religious institutions can

non religious institutions can non religious institutions can

non religious institutions can provide. The idea or -- there is no

provide. The idea or -- there is no provide. The idea or -- there is no

future for Christianity is simply future for Christianity is simply

future for Christianity is simply future for Christianity is simply

backing away from what are known as backing away from what are known as

backing away from what are known as the heart teachings. Looking at

the heart teachings. Looking at moral authority, and your

moral authority, and your suggestion in the newspapers

suggestion in the newspapers suggestion in the newspapers

yesterday is that priests signed up yesterday is that priests signed up

yesterday is that priests signed up by our celibacy, with a written

by our celibacy, with a written by our celibacy, with a written

statement. This has to be cleared statement. This has to be cleared

statement. This has to be cleared statement. This has to be cleared

up. I came forward with a set of up. I came forward with a set of

up. I came forward with a set of proposals some people are reeling

proposals some people are reeling proposals some people are reeling

from, which are very radical, but from, which are very radical, but

from, which are very radical, but from, which are very radical, but

not easy for the church. In some not easy for the church. In some

not easy for the church. In some ways, they are more challenging,

ways, they are more challenging, involving much more profound

involving much more profound involving much more profound

changes within the church than changes within the church than

changes within the church than could be occasioned by this single

could be occasioned by this single could be occasioned by this single

scandal. The church cannot go back scandal. The church cannot go back

scandal. The church cannot go back as if nothing has happened. These

as if nothing has happened. These proposals... Under the current

proposals... Under the current circumstances, priests are not

circumstances, priests are not circumstances, priests are not

circumstances, priests are not required to make up by two of

required to make up by two of required to make up by two of

celibacy. They are making a promise. celibacy. They are making a promise.

celibacy. They are making a promise. celibacy. They are making a promise.

-- to make a vow of celibacy. One -- to make a vow of celibacy. One

-- to make a vow of celibacy. One -- to make a vow of celibacy. One

of the things that might be done is of the things that might be done is

to face priests individually, to face priests individually,

to face priests individually, within the context of a private

within the context of a private within the context of a private

within the context of a private setting, and ask them if they feel

setting, and ask them if they feel setting, and ask them if they feel

setting, and ask them if they feel they can continue in the Prix sud

they can continue in the Prix sud they can continue in the Prix sud

given the requirement of celibacy given the requirement of celibacy

given the requirement of celibacy that they have undertaken. Thus

that they have undertaken. Thus that they have undertaken. Thus

continue in the priesthood. If they continue in the priesthood. If they

continue in the priesthood. If they say they cannot, the church should

say they cannot, the church should say they cannot, the church should

say they cannot, the church should assist them to find a way out of

assist them to find a way out of assist them to find a way out of

the Church. The trouble with that, the Church. The trouble with that,

the Church. The trouble with that, if you had asked Cardinal Keith

if you had asked Cardinal Keith if you had asked Cardinal Keith

O'Brien two years ago, are you O'Brien two years ago, are you

O'Brien two years ago, are you struggling with celibacy, and would

struggling with celibacy, and would struggling with celibacy, and would

struggling with celibacy, and would you like to leave the church? What

you like to leave the church? What you like to leave the church? What

you like to leave the church? What do you think he would have said?

do you think he would have said? do you think he would have said?

do you think he would have said? Part of the problem of that is, if

Part of the problem of that is, if Part of the problem of that is, if

Part of the problem of that is, if this sort of thing I am talking

this sort of thing I am talking this sort of thing I am talking

this sort of thing I am talking about was done in earlier, we would

about was done in earlier, we would about was done in earlier, we would

about was done in earlier, we would not be in the situation. I am not

not be in the situation. I am not not be in the situation. I am not

talking about any sort of public talking about any sort of public

talking about any sort of public holding to account, but an internal,

holding to account, but an internal, holding to account, but an internal,

private and confidential forum in private and confidential forum in

private and confidential forum in which people can do this. Terrible

which people can do this. Terrible which people can do this. Terrible

which people can do this. Terrible as this is, they will be many

as this is, they will be many as this is, they will be many

as this is, they will be many clergy who would feel relief in a

clergy who would feel relief in a clergy who would feel relief in a

clergy who would feel relief in a way. An issue that, as you say,

way. An issue that, as you say, way. An issue that, as you say,

way. An issue that, as you say, that is the largest two. It is

that is the largest two. It is that is the largest two. It is

being brought before us and they being brought before us and they

being brought before us and they will have to think about their

will have to think about their will have to think about their

situation. And away, we can begin situation. And away, we can begin

situation. And away, we can begin to have the kind of conversation

to have the kind of conversation to have the kind of conversation

that is long overdue. Tom French, that is long overdue. Tom French,

that is long overdue. Tom French, do you believe that church had

do you believe that church had do you believe that church had

moral authority before this? That moral authority before this? That

moral authority before this? That moral authority before this? That

is the issue. The church has a lot is the issue. The church has a lot

is the issue. The church has a lot is the issue. The church has a lot

of very good things. It does a lot of very good things. It does a lot