28/02/2013 Newsnight Scotland


28/02/2013

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The Archbishop appointed as The Archbishop appointed as

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temporary replacement for Cardinal temporary replacement for Cardinal

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temporary replacement for Cardinal Keith O'Brien has celebrated mass

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Keith O'Brien has celebrated mass Keith O'Brien has celebrated mass

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Keith O'Brien has celebrated mass for the first time at St Mary's

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for the first time at St Mary's C'athedral in Edinburgh, since

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C'athedral in Edinburgh, since C'athedral in Edinburgh, since

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taking over as administrator of the taking over as administrator of the

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taking over as administrator of the Archdiocese of Edinburgh and St

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Archdiocese of Edinburgh and St Archdiocese of Edinburgh and St

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Andrews. So does this mark a Andrews. So does this mark a

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turning point for Scotland's turning point for Scotland's

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turning point for Scotland's Catholic community? What is the

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Catholic community? What is the Catholic community? What is the

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future for a church that according future for a church that according

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future for a church that according to one commentator is facing its

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to one commentator is facing its biggest crisis since the

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biggest crisis since the Reformation? Sally McNair reports.

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Reformation? Sally McNair reports. Unprecedented times for today's

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Unprecedented times for today's Unprecedented times for today's

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Roman Catholics. Pope Benedict XVI Roman Catholics. Pope Benedict XVI

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Roman Catholics. Pope Benedict XVI delivered his final worlds as Pope

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delivered his final worlds as Pope delivered his final worlds as Pope

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before taking leave of the Vatican before taking leave of the Vatican

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before taking leave of the Vatican before taking leave of the Vatican

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to spend his final days living as a pilgrim.

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pilgrim. pilgrim.

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Our holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, Our holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI,

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had appointed me... Unchartered had appointed me... Unchartered

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waters for Scotland's Roman waters for Scotland's Roman

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waters for Scotland's Roman Catholics too as the Archbishop

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Catholics too as the Archbishop Catholics too as the Archbishop

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told worshippers in Edinburgh he told worshippers in Edinburgh he

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told worshippers in Edinburgh he understands their state of shock

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understands their state of shock understands their state of shock

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for the loss of their shepherd for the loss of their shepherd

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following Cardinal Keith O'Brien's following Cardinal Keith O'Brien's

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following Cardinal Keith O'Brien's resignation. The Archbishop was not

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resignation. The Archbishop was not resignation. The Archbishop was not

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available for interview, but a available for interview, but a

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available for interview, but a spokesman for the Catholic Church

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spokesman for the Catholic Church spokesman for the Catholic Church

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in Scotland is adamant that while in Scotland is adamant that while

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in Scotland is adamant that while in Scotland is adamant that while

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it may be troubled, it is not a it may be troubled, it is not a

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it may be troubled, it is not a church in crisis. There has been

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church in crisis. There has been church in crisis. There has been

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damage done, yes. There is no damage done, yes. There is no

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damage done, yes. There is no question about that. I think

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question about that. I think allegations against individuals,

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particularly high-profile particularly high-profile

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particularly high-profile individuals and when corruption is

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individuals and when corruption is individuals and when corruption is

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alleged elsewhere in the church, it alleged elsewhere in the church, it

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alleged elsewhere in the church, it absolutely does damage the standing

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absolutely does damage the standing absolutely does damage the standing

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absolutely does damage the standing and the perception of the church in

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and the perception of the church in and the perception of the church in

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and the perception of the church in the widest sense in so far as the

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the widest sense in so far as the the widest sense in so far as the

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faith of individual Catholics is faith of individual Catholics is

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faith of individual Catholics is concerned, I'd be very cautious

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concerned, I'd be very cautious concerned, I'd be very cautious

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about passing judgment on that. about passing judgment on that.

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about passing judgment on that. Lift up your hearts. Undeniably,

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Lift up your hearts. Undeniably, Lift up your hearts. Undeniably,

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though, there is an air of though, there is an air of

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though, there is an air of fragility, seabs of unease amongst

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fragility, seabs of unease amongst fragility, seabs of unease amongst

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practising Catholics. Many put the practising Catholics. Many put the

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practising Catholics. Many put the practising Catholics. Many put the

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blame at the door of a hierarchy blame at the door of a hierarchy

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blame at the door of a hierarchy which has appeared unwelcoming and

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which has appeared unwelcoming and out of touch.

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out of touch. out of touch.

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out of touch. I think if there had been more lay

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I think if there had been more lay I think if there had been more lay

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voices being listened to rather voices being listened to rather

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voices being listened to rather voices being listened to rather

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than being preached at, some of the than being preached at, some of the

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than being preached at, some of the than being preached at, some of the

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errors we have had would not have errors we have had would not have

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errors we have had would not have errors we have had would not have

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occurred, but I think there is a occurred, but I think there is a

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occurred, but I think there is a healing process to be going through.

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healing process to be going through. healing process to be going through.

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healing process to be going through. There are people who feel that they

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There are people who feel that they There are people who feel that they

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have been pushed away from the have been pushed away from the

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have been pushed away from the have been pushed away from the

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church - the divorced, the gay. I church - the divorced, the gay. I

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church - the divorced, the gay. I church - the divorced, the gay. I

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don't think there is a Lord that don't think there is a Lord that

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don't think there is a Lord that don't think there is a Lord that

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wouldn't say to the divorced or gay, wouldn't say to the divorced or gay,

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wouldn't say to the divorced or gay, wouldn't say to the divorced or gay,

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you're not welcome at my table, and you're not welcome at my table, and

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you're not welcome at my table, and you're not welcome at my table, and

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I think the church has to start I think the church has to start

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I think the church has to start I think the church has to start

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thinking how do we reconnect by the thinking how do we reconnect by the

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thinking how do we reconnect by the hurt taken by some public stance

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hurt taken by some public stance hurt taken by some public stance

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taken by some elements within the taken by some elements within the

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taken by some elements within the church. How does that healing

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church. How does that healing church. How does that healing

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process start? What'll it take to process start? What'll it take to

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process start? What'll it take to restore confidence in the Catholic

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restore confidence in the Catholic restore confidence in the Catholic

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Church in Scotland? I'm actually to Church in Scotland? I'm actually to

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Church in Scotland? I'm actually to some extent upbeat about the medium

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some extent upbeat about the medium some extent upbeat about the medium

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and long-term development of the and long-term development of the

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and long-term development of the church because I know from my

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church because I know from my church because I know from my

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historical studies that often out historical studies that often out

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historical studies that often out of a terrible crisis can compostive

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of a terrible crisis can compostive of a terrible crisis can compostive

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opportunity, but that depends on opportunity, but that depends on

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opportunity, but that depends on how well that's managed, and that's

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how well that's managed, and that's how well that's managed, and that's

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how well that's managed, and that's where the big "if" comes in - how

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where the big "if" comes in - how where the big "if" comes in - how

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where the big "if" comes in - how where the big "if" comes in - how

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well that can be - if we can learn well that can be - if we can learn

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well that can be - if we can learn well that can be - if we can learn

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from this and move on in a coherent, from this and move on in a coherent,

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from this and move on in a coherent, positive way. There will be change

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positive way. There will be change positive way. There will be change

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positive way. There will be change - of course there will - because we

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- of course there will - because we - of course there will - because we

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expect new bishops to be appointed. expect new bishops to be appointed.

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expect new bishops to be appointed. Those who are leaving are leaving

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Those who are leaving are leaving Those who are leaving are leaving

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Those who are leaving are leaving on the grounds of age, because they

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on the grounds of age, because they on the grounds of age, because they

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have reached their retirement age, have reached their retirement age,

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have reached their retirement age, have reached their retirement age,

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which in the church is 75. Again, which in the church is 75. Again,

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which in the church is 75. Again, we can expect they'll be replaced

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we can expect they'll be replaced we can expect they'll be replaced

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we can expect they'll be replaced by others who are younger than them.

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by others who are younger than them. by others who are younger than them.

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by others who are younger than them. So we're going to end up with a

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So we're going to end up with a So we're going to end up with a

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younger Conference of Bishops and younger Conference of Bishops and

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younger Conference of Bishops and with new bishops, so of itself

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with new bishops, so of itself Will a turnover of personnel on its

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Will a turnover of personnel on its Will a turnover of personnel on its

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own be enough? Does it need own be enough? Does it need

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own be enough? Does it need structural reform, or is a

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structural reform, or is a fundamental change of priorities

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fundamental change of priorities fundamental change of priorities

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needed to make the faithful more needed to make the faithful more

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comfortable with their church? comfortable with their church?

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comfortable with their church? comfortable with their church?

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We will survive this - the most We will survive this - the most

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We will survive this - the most important question is, do we learn

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important question is, do we learn important question is, do we learn

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important question is, do we learn from this? Do we grow from this

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from this? Do we grow from this from this? Do we grow from this

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from this? Do we grow from this now? If I didn't think There was a

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now? If I didn't think There was a now? If I didn't think There was a

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prospect of growth within the prospect of growth within the

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prospect of growth within the church, I would find myself another

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church, I would find myself another church, I would find myself another

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church, but I don't believe there church, but I don't believe there

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church, but I don't believe there is another church that better

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is another church that better is another church that better

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represents what I believe, what I represents what I believe, what I

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represents what I believe, what I alirm. I'll be Catholic until my

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alirm. I'll be Catholic until my alirm. I'll be Catholic until my

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grave. I think other Scottish grave. I think other Scottish

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grave. I think other Scottish Catholics will as well. But it

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Catholics will as well. But it Catholics will as well. But it

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Catholics will as well. But it would be a mistake to think, just

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would be a mistake to think, just would be a mistake to think, just

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pick ourselves up from this. Stick pick ourselves up from this. Stick

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pick ourselves up from this. Stick together. Nothing needs to change.

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together. Nothing needs to change. together. Nothing needs to change.

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together. Nothing needs to change. If we want to see growth and

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If we want to see growth and If we want to see growth and

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If we want to see growth and renewal in the church, we have to

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renewal in the church, we have to renewal in the church, we have to

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learn from what's unfolded. learn from what's unfolded.

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learn from what's unfolded. cannot tell - you cannot speculate

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cannot tell - you cannot speculate cannot tell - you cannot speculate

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cannot tell - you cannot speculate on the future. It's dangerous to do.

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on the future. It's dangerous to do. on the future. It's dangerous to do.

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on the future. It's dangerous to do. on the future. It's dangerous to do.

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There is a story - let me put it There is a story - let me put it

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There is a story - let me put it There is a story - let me put it

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There is a story - let me put it this way - I try to avoid it.

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this way - I try to avoid it. this way - I try to avoid it.

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joined by three well-known Scottish joined by three well-known Scottish

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Catholics, Professor John Haldane, Catholics, Professor John Haldane,

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Catholics, Professor John Haldane, who's a consultor to the Vatican,

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who's a consultor to the Vatican, who's a consultor to the Vatican,

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is in Dundee. Journalist Katie is in Dundee. Journalist Katie

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is in Dundee. Journalist Katie is in Dundee. Journalist Katie

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Grant is here in Glasgow, as is Grant is here in Glasgow, as is

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Grant is here in Glasgow, as is writer and former Lord Provost

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writer and former Lord Provost writer and former Lord Provost

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Michael Kelly. Just on the Michael Kelly. Just on the

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Michael Kelly. Just on the situation of Cardinal Keith O'Brien,

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situation of Cardinal Keith O'Brien, situation of Cardinal Keith O'Brien,

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situation of Cardinal Keith O'Brien, I was reading a piece you had

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I was reading a piece you had I was reading a piece you had

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written for the Tablet today. The written for the Tablet today. The

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written for the Tablet today. The implication is he was resigned, if

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implication is he was resigned, if implication is he was resigned, if

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implication is he was resigned, if I can put it that way, in other

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I can put it that way, in other I can put it that way, in other

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words, that it wasn't an entirely words, that it wasn't an entirely

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words, that it wasn't an entirely voluntary decision. That is correct.

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voluntary decision. That is correct. voluntary decision. That is correct.

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voluntary decision. That is correct. Right. I mean, I think there are

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Right. I mean, I think there are Right. I mean, I think there are

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two dimensions to this that perhaps two dimensions to this that perhaps

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two dimensions to this that perhaps need to be clarified. One is,

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need to be clarified. One is, need to be clarified. One is,

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remember, he was an Archbishop, and remember, he was an Archbishop, and

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remember, he was an Archbishop, and he is also a Cardinal. Rome's

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he is also a Cardinal. Rome's he is also a Cardinal. Rome's

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decision thus far concerned the decision thus far concerned the

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decision thus far concerned the acceptance of a predelivered letter

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acceptance of a predelivered letter acceptance of a predelivered letter

:06:08.:06:08.

of resignation as Archbishop. What of resignation as Archbishop. What

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of resignation as Archbishop. What was resolved in the course of

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was resolved in the course of Saturday and Sunday, principally

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Saturday and Sunday, principally Saturday and Sunday, principally

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Saturday and Sunday, principally Sunday, was a decision on his part,

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Sunday, was a decision on his part, Sunday, was a decision on his part,

:06:18.:06:19.

an entirely voluntary decision on an entirely voluntary decision on

:06:19.:06:20.

an entirely voluntary decision on an entirely voluntary decision on

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his part, not to go to the conclave, his part, not to go to the conclave,

:06:22.:06:22.

his part, not to go to the conclave, his part, not to go to the conclave,

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which he'd still be entitled to go which he'd still be entitled to go

:06:24.:06:25.

which he'd still be entitled to go which he'd still be entitled to go

:06:25.:06:26.

to as a Cardinal. That's nothing to to as a Cardinal. That's nothing to

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to as a Cardinal. That's nothing to do with his position as an

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do with his position as an Archbishop. Right. Basically, the

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Archbishop. Right. Basically, the Archbishop. Right. Basically, the

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Archbishop. Right. Basically, the vet can made it quite clear - we

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vet can made it quite clear - we The Vatican chose to accept his

:06:41.:06:42.

The Vatican chose to accept his The Vatican chose to accept his

:06:42.:06:43.

resignation and I presume judged resignation and I presume judged

:06:43.:06:44.

resignation and I presume judged there was reason to do so.

:06:44.:06:46.

there was reason to do so. there was reason to do so.

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Right. At the beginning of the Right. At the beginning of the

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Right. At the beginning of the article you wrote, you rather pored

:06:53.:06:54.

article you wrote, you rather pored article you wrote, you rather pored

:06:54.:06:55.

scorn on the media for speculating scorn on the media for speculating

:06:55.:06:57.

scorn on the media for speculating scorn on the media for speculating

:06:57.:06:58.

about what had gone on in this about what had gone on in this

:06:58.:06:59.

affair and suggesting some affair and suggesting some

:06:59.:07:00.

affair and suggesting some Catholics had been jumping to

:07:00.:07:01.

Catholics had been jumping to Catholics had been jumping to

:07:01.:07:02.

conclusions, but towards the end of conclusions, but towards the end of

:07:02.:07:05.

conclusions, but towards the end of the article you say, "Who benefited

:07:05.:07:07.

the article you say, "Who benefited the article you say, "Who benefited

:07:07.:07:08.

from these accusation being made from these accusation being made

:07:08.:07:09.

from these accusation being made public?" How would you answer your

:07:09.:07:10.

public?" How would you answer your public?" How would you answer your

:07:10.:07:12.

public?" How would you answer your own question? Well, I think the -

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own question? Well, I think the - own question? Well, I think the -

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own question? Well, I think the - these are two different points in a

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these are two different points in a these are two different points in a

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these are two different points in a way. I think the remark I was

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way. I think the remark I was way. I think the remark I was

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offering at the beginning of this offering at the beginning of this

:07:19.:07:20.

offering at the beginning of this offering at the beginning of this

:07:20.:07:21.

is there was a great deal of is there was a great deal of

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is there was a great deal of commentary had come out from people

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commentary had come out from people commentary had come out from people

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who knew nothing whatsoever about who knew nothing whatsoever about

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who knew nothing whatsoever about the circumstances. I mean, I really

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the circumstances. I mean, I really the circumstances. I mean, I really

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do mean knew nothing whatsoever do mean knew nothing whatsoever

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do mean knew nothing whatsoever about the circumstances. Now, that

:07:30.:07:31.

about the circumstances. Now, that about the circumstances. Now, that

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about the circumstances. Now, that is one thing. There is a question

:07:33.:07:36.

is one thing. There is a question is one thing. There is a question

:07:36.:07:37.

is one thing. There is a question to be asked about the timing and

:07:37.:07:38.

to be asked about the timing and to be asked about the timing and

:07:38.:07:41.

to be asked about the timing and the making public of what had been

:07:41.:07:43.

the making public of what had been the making public of what had been

:07:43.:07:44.

the making public of what had been put forward privately as a set of

:07:44.:07:45.

put forward privately as a set of put forward privately as a set of

:07:45.:07:46.

accusations, and that is, it seems accusations, and that is, it seems

:07:46.:07:48.

accusations, and that is, it seems to me, an interesting issue that'll

:07:48.:07:49.

to me, an interesting issue that'll to me, an interesting issue that'll

:07:49.:07:50.

to me, an interesting issue that'll be explored, I've no doubt in the

:07:50.:07:51.

be explored, I've no doubt in the be explored, I've no doubt in the

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course of time as further aspects course of time as further aspects

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course of time as further aspects of this emerge, one thing and

:07:53.:07:54.

of this emerge, one thing and of this emerge, one thing and

:07:54.:07:55.

another. The initial remark was to another. The initial remark was to

:07:55.:07:56.

another. The initial remark was to the effect that people were

:07:56.:07:58.

the effect that people were offering commentaries, for example,

:07:58.:08:00.

offering commentaries, for example, offering commentaries, for example,

:08:00.:08:02.

offering commentaries, for example, about the scale of the impact of

:08:02.:08:03.

about the scale of the impact of about the scale of the impact of

:08:03.:08:04.

about the scale of the impact of this, what might be involved, so on,

:08:04.:08:05.

this, what might be involved, so on, who literally knew nothing

:08:05.:08:06.

who literally knew nothing who literally knew nothing

:08:06.:08:07.

whatsoever of the situation. whatsoever of the situation.

:08:07.:08:08.

whatsoever of the situation. when you say "who benefits", are

:08:08.:08:09.

when you say "who benefits", are when you say "who benefits", are

:08:09.:08:11.

when you say "who benefits", are you suggesting there was some - if

:08:11.:08:13.

you suggesting there was some - if you suggesting there was some - if

:08:13.:08:14.

not a conspiracy, at least not a conspiracy, at least

:08:14.:08:14.

not a conspiracy, at least something malignant going on here?

:08:15.:08:16.

something malignant going on here? something malignant going on here?

:08:16.:08:17.

something malignant going on here? something malignant going on here?

:08:18.:08:18.

Well, I was drawing in a way - this Well, I was drawing in a way - this

:08:18.:08:19.

Well, I was drawing in a way - this Well, I was drawing in a way - this

:08:19.:08:20.

is in the context of drawing a is in the context of drawing a

:08:20.:08:21.

is in the context of drawing a larger conclusion about the state

:08:21.:08:22.

larger conclusion about the state larger conclusion about the state

:08:22.:08:23.

larger conclusion about the state of the health, as it were, of the

:08:23.:08:24.

of the health, as it were, of the Catholic Church in Scotland,

:08:24.:08:25.

Catholic Church in Scotland, Catholic Church in Scotland,

:08:25.:08:26.

because it seems to me whichever because it seems to me whichever

:08:26.:08:29.

because it seems to me whichever way this matter is resolved, you

:08:29.:08:31.

way this matter is resolved, you way this matter is resolved, you

:08:31.:08:32.

have a problem. If the accusations have a problem. If the accusations

:08:32.:08:33.

have a problem. If the accusations are substantiated, then clearly you

:08:33.:08:37.

are substantiated, then clearly you are substantiated, then clearly you

:08:37.:08:40.

have the problem of moral have the problem of moral

:08:40.:08:41.

have the problem of moral malpractice and the - there are

:08:41.:08:44.

malpractice and the - there are malpractice and the - there are

:08:44.:08:45.

questions involved but anyway, more questions involved but anyway, more

:08:45.:08:46.

questions involved but anyway, more and more malpractice on behalf of

:08:46.:08:47.

and more malpractice on behalf of and more malpractice on behalf of

:08:47.:08:48.

an Archbishop. If they were found an Archbishop. If they were found

:08:48.:08:50.

an Archbishop. If they were found an Archbishop. If they were found

:08:50.:08:50.

to be without subs stance, then you to be without subs stance, then you

:08:50.:08:51.

to be without subs stance, then you have the situation of priests

:08:51.:08:52.

have the situation of priests have the situation of priests

:08:52.:08:53.

within the church willing to put within the church willing to put

:08:53.:08:54.

within the church willing to put together, to work together, to

:08:54.:08:58.

together, to work together, to together, to work together, to

:08:58.:08:59.

submit a set of acusation which submit a set of acusation which

:08:59.:09:01.

submit a set of acusation which were false so whichever way this

:09:01.:09:02.

were false so whichever way this were false so whichever way this

:09:02.:09:03.

goes, it doesn't speak to the goes, it doesn't speak to the

:09:03.:09:04.

goes, it doesn't speak to the health of the Catholic Church in

:09:04.:09:05.

health of the Catholic Church in health of the Catholic Church in

:09:05.:09:06.

health of the Catholic Church in Scotland. What do you make of that?

:09:06.:09:07.

Scotland. What do you make of that? Scotland. What do you make of that?

:09:07.:09:09.

Whatever this is, it ain't good, Whatever this is, it ain't good,

:09:09.:09:11.

basically. Well, it's perfectly basically. Well, it's perfectly

:09:11.:09:12.

basically. Well, it's perfectly true that whatever happens, as he

:09:12.:09:13.

true that whatever happens, as he true that whatever happens, as he

:09:13.:09:17.

says, that the outcome of that says, that the outcome of that

:09:17.:09:18.

says, that the outcome of that isn't good. But the ordinary

:09:18.:09:21.

isn't good. But the ordinary isn't good. But the ordinary

:09:21.:09:22.

isn't good. But the ordinary Catholic in the pew - there are

:09:22.:09:23.

Catholic in the pew - there are christenings going on, holy

:09:23.:09:26.

christenings going on, holy christenings going on, holy

:09:26.:09:27.

confirmation, people are dying. The confirmation, people are dying. The

:09:27.:09:28.

confirmation, people are dying. The ordinary, pastoral work of the

:09:28.:09:29.

ordinary, pastoral work of the ordinary, pastoral work of the

:09:29.:09:30.

ordinary, pastoral work of the church just going on. There are two

:09:30.:09:31.

church just going on. There are two different things happening here.

:09:31.:09:33.

different things happening here. different things happening here.

:09:33.:09:34.

There is some sort of bureaucratic There is some sort of bureaucratic

:09:34.:09:35.

There is some sort of bureaucratic There is some sort of bureaucratic

:09:35.:09:41.

crisis. I don't even think it's a It's more than that. If the

:09:41.:09:42.

It's more than that. If the It's more than that. If the

:09:42.:09:44.

allegations are true, it's speck allegations are true, it's speck

:09:44.:09:46.

tartacular hypocrisy. Indeed. If tartacular hypocrisy. Indeed. If

:09:46.:09:48.

tartacular hypocrisy. Indeed. If the allegations were true, it would

:09:48.:09:50.

the allegations were true, it would the allegations were true, it would

:09:50.:09:50.

be spectacular hypocrisy, and at be spectacular hypocrisy, and at

:09:50.:09:51.

be spectacular hypocrisy, and at the moment this is between the

:09:51.:09:52.

the moment this is between the the moment this is between the

:09:52.:09:53.

the moment this is between the priests and the Archbishop - or the

:09:53.:09:55.

priests and the Archbishop - or the priests and the Archbishop - or the

:09:55.:09:56.

Archbishop now resigned, but for Archbishop now resigned, but for

:09:56.:09:57.

Archbishop now resigned, but for the ordinary Catholic in the pew,

:09:57.:09:58.

the ordinary Catholic in the pew, the ordinary Catholic in the pew,

:09:58.:09:59.

the pastoral work of the church the pastoral work of the church

:09:59.:10:00.

the pastoral work of the church the pastoral work of the church

:10:00.:10:01.

just goes on, so I think when just goes on, so I think when

:10:01.:10:02.

just goes on, so I think when people talk about a crisis, a

:10:02.:10:03.

people talk about a crisis, a people talk about a crisis, a

:10:03.:10:04.

crisis to me is something where crisis to me is something where

:10:04.:10:05.

crisis to me is something where crisis to me is something where

:10:05.:10:06.

people run around and say, we don't people run around and say, we don't

:10:06.:10:07.

people run around and say, we don't know what to do. Everybody knows

:10:07.:10:09.

know what to do. Everybody knows know what to do. Everybody knows

:10:09.:10:10.

what they're doing in this case. what they're doing in this case.

:10:10.:10:11.

what they're doing in this case. The allegations are going to be

:10:11.:10:12.

The allegations are going to be The allegations are going to be

:10:12.:10:13.

looked at, and the ordinary looked at, and the ordinary

:10:14.:10:15.

looked at, and the ordinary Catholic gets on. It's lent. Easter

:10:15.:10:16.

Catholic gets on. It's lent. Easter Catholic gets on. It's lent. Easter

:10:16.:10:18.

Catholic gets on. It's lent. Easter is coming up. We have a papal

:10:18.:10:19.

is coming up. We have a papal is coming up. We have a papal

:10:19.:10:20.

is coming up. We have a papal conclave. That's just how it is. I

:10:20.:10:21.

conclave. That's just how it is. I conclave. That's just how it is. I

:10:21.:10:21.

conclave. That's just how it is. I think there is a tendency to kind

:10:22.:10:22.

think there is a tendency to kind think there is a tendency to kind

:10:22.:10:23.

think there is a tendency to kind of ratchet up the emotion and the

:10:23.:10:24.

of ratchet up the emotion and the of ratchet up the emotion and the

:10:24.:10:25.

of ratchet up the emotion and the sort of - the idea of chaos, but

:10:25.:10:27.

sort of - the idea of chaos, but sort of - the idea of chaos, but

:10:27.:10:28.

sort of - the idea of chaos, but there isn't any chaos. There is a

:10:28.:10:30.

there isn't any chaos. There is a there isn't any chaos. There is a

:10:30.:10:31.

perfectly good procedure going on perfectly good procedure going on

:10:31.:10:32.

perfectly good procedure going on perfectly good procedure going on

:10:32.:10:33.

now. It's not very nice. It's very now. It's not very nice. It's very

:10:33.:10:34.

now. It's not very nice. It's very public. It doesn't do the church

:10:34.:10:35.

public. It doesn't do the church public. It doesn't do the church

:10:35.:10:37.

public. It doesn't do the church any good, but it's not a crisis.

:10:37.:10:38.

any good, but it's not a crisis. any good, but it's not a crisis.

:10:38.:10:40.

The very least you could say, The very least you could say,

:10:40.:10:43.

The very least you could say, surely is taken together with the

:10:43.:10:44.

surely is taken together with the surely is taken together with the

:10:44.:10:45.

long list of incidents in other long list of incidents in other

:10:45.:10:46.

long list of incidents in other countries we have had with child

:10:46.:10:48.

countries we have had with child countries we have had with child

:10:48.:10:49.

abuse and America and Ireland, all abuse and America and Ireland, all

:10:50.:10:52.

abuse and America and Ireland, all the various things this certainly

:10:52.:10:52.

the various things this certainly the various things this certainly

:10:52.:10:53.

doesn't do the image of the doesn't do the image of the

:10:53.:10:54.

doesn't do the image of the Catholic Church any good.

:10:54.:10:56.

Catholic Church any good. Catholic Church any good.

:10:56.:10:57.

wouldn't take it together with wouldn't take it together with

:10:57.:10:58.

wouldn't take it together with those other things. I'm sorry. I'm

:10:58.:10:59.

those other things. I'm sorry. I'm those other things. I'm sorry. I'm

:10:59.:11:00.

those other things. I'm sorry. I'm not saying it's the same issue. I

:11:00.:11:01.

not saying it's the same issue. I not saying it's the same issue. I

:11:01.:11:02.

not saying it's the same issue. I am saying there have been a whole

:11:02.:11:05.

am saying there have been a whole am saying there have been a whole

:11:05.:11:07.

series of issues which have either series of issues which have either

:11:07.:11:08.

series of issues which have either got to actual criminal behaviours,

:11:08.:11:09.

got to actual criminal behaviours, got to actual criminal behaviours,

:11:09.:11:11.

got to actual criminal behaviours, in some of them, in this case,

:11:11.:11:12.

in some of them, in this case, in some of them, in this case,

:11:12.:11:15.

possibly gets you to hypocrisy or possibly gets you to hypocrisy or

:11:15.:11:17.

possibly gets you to hypocrisy or the things that the professor

:11:17.:11:19.

the things that the professor the things that the professor

:11:19.:11:20.

outlined. Image-wise, it's not good. outlined. Image-wise, it's not good.

:11:20.:11:21.

outlined. Image-wise, it's not good. outlined. Image-wise, it's not good.

:11:21.:11:22.

Of course it's not. In that sense Of course it's not. In that sense

:11:22.:11:23.

Of course it's not. In that sense it's damaging. I would reject all

:11:23.:11:25.

it's damaging. I would reject all it's damaging. I would reject all

:11:25.:11:25.

it's damaging. I would reject all talk of crisis as just making a

:11:26.:11:27.

talk of crisis as just making a talk of crisis as just making a

:11:27.:11:28.

talk of crisis as just making a drama into a crisis. This is a

:11:28.:11:30.

drama into a crisis. This is a drama into a crisis. This is a

:11:30.:11:32.

very... You wouldn't agree with very... You wouldn't agree with

:11:32.:11:33.

very... You wouldn't agree with Tom? I disagree totally. I think

:11:33.:11:33.

Tom? I disagree totally. I think Tom? I disagree totally. I think

:11:33.:11:34.

his analysis just doesn't stand up. his analysis just doesn't stand up.

:11:34.:11:36.

his analysis just doesn't stand up. his analysis just doesn't stand up.

:11:36.:11:37.

I mean, he was talking there in the I mean, he was talking there in the

:11:37.:11:39.

I mean, he was talking there in the film about positive aspects coming

:11:39.:11:40.

film about positive aspects coming film about positive aspects coming

:11:40.:11:43.

film about positive aspects coming film about positive aspects coming

:11:43.:11:44.

out of a crisis as he sees it. The out of a crisis as he sees it. The

:11:44.:11:46.

out of a crisis as he sees it. The Viemar Republic springs to mind.

:11:46.:11:47.

Viemar Republic springs to mind. Viemar Republic springs to mind.

:11:47.:11:51.

Nothing came out of the chaos Nothing came out of the chaos

:11:51.:11:52.

Nothing came out of the chaos Nothing came out of the chaos

:11:52.:11:54.

caused by that. I don't see this as caused by that. I don't see this as

:11:54.:11:56.

caused by that. I don't see this as caused by that. I don't see this as

:11:56.:11:57.

a crisis in any way doctrinally or a crisis in any way doctrinally or

:11:57.:11:59.

doing mattically. It hasn't doing mattically. It hasn't

:11:59.:12:02.

affected what Catholics are affected what Catholics are

:12:02.:12:04.

affected what Catholics are expected to believe. If the

:12:04.:12:05.

expected to believe. If the expected to believe. If the

:12:05.:12:06.

expected to believe. If the Catholic faith is put into - by a

:12:06.:12:07.

Catholic faith is put into - by a Catholic faith is put into - by a

:12:07.:12:08.

scandal like this, they really scandal like this, they really

:12:08.:12:10.

scandal like this, they really don't have the right approach to

:12:10.:12:11.

don't have the right approach to don't have the right approach to

:12:11.:12:12.

the Catholic Church. What they the Catholic Church. What they

:12:12.:12:14.

the Catholic Church. What they should do - I think Brian

:12:14.:12:15.

should do - I think Brian should do - I think Brian

:12:15.:12:16.

Fitzpatrick was alluding to this, Fitzpatrick was alluding to this,

:12:16.:12:17.

Fitzpatrick was alluding to this, Fitzpatrick was alluding to this,

:12:17.:12:18.

if they see this hypocrisy, if it's if they see this hypocrisy, if it's

:12:18.:12:19.

if they see this hypocrisy, if it's if they see this hypocrisy, if it's

:12:19.:12:20.

proved to be that as major problem, proved to be that as major problem,

:12:20.:12:21.

proved to be that as major problem, proved to be that as major problem,

:12:21.:12:21.

then they really do have to find then they really do have to find

:12:21.:12:22.

then they really do have to find another church. The church is not

:12:22.:12:24.

another church. The church is not another church. The church is not

:12:24.:12:26.

another church. The church is not going to change to suit them.

:12:26.:12:27.

going to change to suit them. going to change to suit them.

:12:27.:12:28.

read you, John, something you said read you, John, something you said

:12:28.:12:30.

read you, John, something you said in this article? It's just a

:12:30.:12:31.

in this article? It's just a in this article? It's just a

:12:31.:12:34.

sentence - a couple of sentences. sentence - a couple of sentences.

:12:34.:12:34.

sentence - a couple of sentences. It says, "Homosexuality per se

:12:34.:12:35.

It says, "Homosexuality per se It says, "Homosexuality per se

:12:35.:12:36.

isn't the problem. It's the isn't the problem. It's the

:12:36.:12:37.

isn't the problem. It's the existence of large numbers of gays

:12:37.:12:40.

existence of large numbers of gays existence of large numbers of gays

:12:40.:12:42.

in an insthution regards this in an insthution regards this

:12:42.:12:43.

condition as intrinsically condition as intrinsically

:12:43.:12:44.

disordered and pretends its disordered and pretends its

:12:44.:12:45.

disordered and pretends its priesthood is not subject to that

:12:45.:12:47.

priesthood is not subject to that priesthood is not subject to that

:12:47.:12:48.

very condition." I suppose two very condition." I suppose two

:12:48.:12:49.

very condition." I suppose two very condition." I suppose two

:12:49.:12:50.

questions on that - one, what are questions on that - one, what are

:12:50.:12:52.

questions on that - one, what are you getting at? Secondly, you seem

:12:52.:12:52.

you getting at? Secondly, you seem you getting at? Secondly, you seem

:12:52.:12:54.

you getting at? Secondly, you seem you getting at? Secondly, you seem

:12:54.:12:55.

to be getting at what you see as a to be getting at what you see as a

:12:55.:12:56.

to be getting at what you see as a structural problem in the church. I

:12:56.:12:57.

structural problem in the church. I structural problem in the church. I

:12:57.:12:57.

don't think you're a particularly don't think you're a particularly

:12:57.:12:58.

don't think you're a particularly just referring to Scotland here.

:12:58.:13:01.

just referring to Scotland here. just referring to Scotland here.

:13:01.:13:01.

Well, no, I wasn't particularly Well, no, I wasn't particularly

:13:01.:13:02.

referring - or exclusively referring - or exclusively

:13:02.:13:08.

What I was getting at is what I What I was getting at is what I

:13:08.:13:09.

What I was getting at is what I What I was getting at is what I

:13:09.:13:10.

said. What I was saying is there is said. What I was saying is there is

:13:10.:13:11.

said. What I was saying is there is said. What I was saying is there is

:13:11.:13:12.

an aspect to the state of the an aspect to the state of the

:13:12.:13:12.

an aspect to the state of the an aspect to the state of the

:13:13.:13:13.

church and the clergy and so on church and the clergy and so on

:13:13.:13:14.

church and the clergy and so on which is well known. People are

:13:14.:13:16.

which is well known. People are which is well known. People are

:13:16.:13:18.

uncomfortable to hear it discussed, uncomfortable to hear it discussed,

:13:18.:13:19.

uncomfortable to hear it discussed, uncomfortable to hear it discussed,

:13:19.:13:20.

but for reasons which I give an but for reasons which I give an

:13:20.:13:21.

but for reasons which I give an but for reasons which I give an

:13:21.:13:23.

account of in terms - in that account of in terms - in that

:13:23.:13:24.

account of in terms - in that article and so on, seminaries have

:13:24.:13:26.

article and so on, seminaries have article and so on, seminaries have

:13:26.:13:27.

often been places in which people often been places in which people

:13:27.:13:29.

often been places in which people could escape to, as it were,

:13:29.:13:30.

could escape to, as it were, without having questions asked

:13:30.:13:31.

without having questions asked without having questions asked

:13:31.:13:32.

without having questions asked within the home and as they were

:13:32.:13:33.

within the home and as they were within the home and as they were

:13:34.:13:34.

growing up and within their growing up and within their

:13:34.:13:36.

growing up and within their communities about whether they have

:13:36.:13:37.

communities about whether they have girlfriends, whether they have

:13:38.:13:38.

girlfriends, whether they have girlfriends, whether they have

:13:38.:13:39.

fiancees, whether they're going to fiancees, whether they're going to

:13:39.:13:41.

fiancees, whether they're going to fiancees, whether they're going to

:13:41.:13:42.

get married and so on... I get that get married and so on... I get that

:13:42.:13:43.

get married and so on... I get that get married and so on... I get that

:13:43.:13:44.

point. See, a lot of people who are point. See, a lot of people who are

:13:44.:13:45.

point. See, a lot of people who are point. See, a lot of people who are

:13:45.:13:47.

not Catholics will watch in and say, not Catholics will watch in and say,

:13:47.:13:48.

not Catholics will watch in and say, not Catholics will watch in and say,

:13:48.:13:50.

look, what is it these people are look, what is it these people are

:13:50.:13:52.

look, what is it these people are getting so worked up about? They

:13:52.:13:53.

getting so worked up about? They getting so worked up about? They

:13:53.:13:53.

have the accusation these people have the accusation these people

:13:53.:13:54.

have the accusation these people have the accusation these people

:13:54.:13:56.

are - whether it's a clique or just are - whether it's a clique or just

:13:56.:13:58.

are - whether it's a clique or just are - whether it's a clique or just

:13:58.:13:59.

a group of openly gay clergy within a group of openly gay clergy within

:13:59.:14:00.

a group of openly gay clergy within a group of openly gay clergy within

:14:00.:14:01.

the curia, that was one of the the curia, that was one of the

:14:01.:14:02.

the curia, that was one of the the curia, that was one of the

:14:02.:14:02.

things that it has been accused of, things that it has been accused of,

:14:02.:14:05.

things that it has been accused of, but on the other hand, this

:14:05.:14:08.

but on the other hand, this but on the other hand, this

:14:08.:14:08.

organisation takes a famously hard organisation takes a famously hard

:14:08.:14:10.

organisation takes a famously hard line about homosexuality, so - I

:14:10.:14:13.

line about homosexuality, so - I line about homosexuality, so - I

:14:13.:14:14.

line about homosexuality, so - I mean, how would you explain that to

:14:14.:14:15.

mean, how would you explain that to mean, how would you explain that to

:14:15.:14:16.

outsiders? Sorry. Yeah. I don't outsiders? Sorry. Yeah. I don't

:14:16.:14:17.

outsiders? Sorry. Yeah. I don't think anybody's made a situation

:14:17.:14:19.

think anybody's made a situation think anybody's made a situation

:14:19.:14:20.

think anybody's made a situation there is a group of openly gay

:14:20.:14:21.

there is a group of openly gay there is a group of openly gay

:14:21.:14:22.

there is a group of openly gay clergy in the curia. The question -

:14:22.:14:22.

clergy in the curia. The question - clergy in the curia. The question -

:14:22.:14:24.

clergy in the curia. The question - just so we can focus and make it

:14:24.:14:25.

just so we can focus and make it just so we can focus and make it

:14:25.:14:26.

clear - the question about clear - the question about

:14:26.:14:27.

clear - the question about homosexuality was simply the point

:14:27.:14:28.

homosexuality was simply the point homosexuality was simply the point

:14:28.:14:29.

homosexuality was simply the point homosexuality was simply the point

:14:29.:14:30.

that I was making - was this, it is, that I was making - was this, it is,

:14:30.:14:31.

that I was making - was this, it is, that I was making - was this, it is,

:14:31.:14:33.

I think, a fact that there is a I think, a fact that there is a

:14:33.:14:33.

I think, a fact that there is a very significant percentage of the

:14:33.:14:35.

very significant percentage of the very significant percentage of the

:14:35.:14:36.

very significant percentage of the clergy - let us say under the age

:14:36.:14:38.

clergy - let us say under the age clergy - let us say under the age

:14:38.:14:39.

clergy - let us say under the age clergy - let us say under the age

:14:39.:14:40.

of 50 or 40, perhaps, 45 - I don't of 50 or 40, perhaps, 45 - I don't

:14:40.:14:42.

of 50 or 40, perhaps, 45 - I don't know what exactly that figure would

:14:42.:14:44.

know what exactly that figure would know what exactly that figure would

:14:44.:14:45.

be - that are homosexual by be - that are homosexual by

:14:45.:14:46.

be - that are homosexual by orientation. Now, that in itself,

:14:46.:14:47.

orientation. Now, that in itself, orientation. Now, that in itself,

:14:47.:14:48.

orientation. Now, that in itself, orientation. Now, that in itself,

:14:49.:14:49.

as I say, is not a problem or need as I say, is not a problem or need

:14:49.:14:50.

as I say, is not a problem or need as I say, is not a problem or need

:14:50.:14:51.

not be a problem. This is not a not be a problem. This is not a

:14:51.:14:52.

not be a problem. This is not a not be a problem. This is not a

:14:52.:14:53.

question as to whether or not it is question as to whether or not it is

:14:53.:14:55.

question as to whether or not it is question as to whether or not it is

:14:55.:14:56.

possible to be homosexual and to be possible to be homosexual and to be

:14:56.:14:57.

possible to be homosexual and to be a Catholic priest, legitimately so.

:14:57.:14:58.

a Catholic priest, legitimately so. a Catholic priest, legitimately so.

:14:58.:15:00.

The answer is obviously yes. The The answer is obviously yes. The

:15:00.:15:02.

The answer is obviously yes. The problem would be if there's

:15:03.:15:03.

problem would be if there's problem would be if there's

:15:04.:15:05.

problem would be if there's subculture - not openly gay, but a

:15:05.:15:06.

subculture - not openly gay, but a subculture - not openly gay, but a

:15:06.:15:08.

subculture of priests who are subculture of priests who are

:15:08.:15:10.

subculture of priests who are simply not honouring their vows of

:15:10.:15:11.

simply not honouring their vows of simply not honouring their vows of

:15:11.:15:12.

simply not honouring their vows of celibacy, and that is as grave in

:15:12.:15:13.

celibacy, and that is as grave in celibacy, and that is as grave in

:15:13.:15:15.

the case of heterosexual priests the case of heterosexual priests

:15:15.:15:16.

the case of heterosexual priests the case of heterosexual priests

:15:16.:15:17.

who are not honouring their vow of who are not honouring their vow of

:15:17.:15:18.

who are not honouring their vow of who are not honouring their vow of

:15:19.:15:19.

celibacy, so one of my proposals - celibacy, so one of my proposals -

:15:19.:15:20.

celibacy, so one of my proposals - celibacy, so one of my proposals -

:15:20.:15:22.

a set of proposal, as you know - a set of proposal, as you know -

:15:22.:15:23.

a set of proposal, as you know - a set of proposal, as you know -

:15:23.:15:24.

but one of my proposals is clergy but one of my proposals is clergy

:15:24.:15:26.

but one of my proposals is clergy should be now required in private

:15:26.:15:28.

should be now required in private should be now required in private

:15:28.:15:29.

to solemnly renew their vows of to solemnly renew their vows of

:15:29.:15:30.

to solemnly renew their vows of to solemnly renew their vows of

:15:30.:15:31.

celibacy and that any member of the celibacy and that any member of the

:15:31.:15:32.

celibacy and that any member of the celibacy and that any member of the

:15:32.:15:33.

clergy who feels unable to do that clergy who feels unable to do that

:15:33.:15:34.

clergy who feels unable to do that clergy who feels unable to do that

:15:34.:15:35.

should be reasoned to the lay state, should be reasoned to the lay state,

:15:35.:15:36.

should be reasoned to the lay state, that the church should facility...

:15:36.:15:37.

that the church should facility... that the church should facility...

:15:37.:15:38.

Running out of time is that Running out of time is that

:15:38.:15:40.

Running out of time is that helpful? Priests are supposed to

:15:40.:15:41.

helpful? Priests are supposed to helpful? Priests are supposed to

:15:41.:15:42.

take vows when they're ordained, take vows when they're ordained,

:15:42.:15:52.
:15:52.:15:57.

The whole question of celibacy, The whole question of celibacy,

:15:57.:15:59.

The whole question of celibacy, The whole question of celibacy,

:15:59.:16:00.

that is something that could be re- that is something that could be re-

:16:00.:16:02.

that is something that could be re- examined. That has not fundamental.

:16:02.:16:04.

examined. That has not fundamental. examined. That has not fundamental.

:16:04.:16:05.

examined. That has not fundamental. I see a major problem as management.

:16:05.:16:09.

I see a major problem as management. I see a major problem as management.

:16:09.:16:10.

I see a major problem as management. We lack the talent. I am curious

:16:10.:16:11.

We lack the talent. I am curious We lack the talent. I am curious

:16:11.:16:12.

because you've got quite liberal because you've got quite liberal

:16:12.:16:13.

because you've got quite liberal views on things like same-sex

:16:13.:16:15.

views on things like same-sex views on things like same-sex

:16:15.:16:17.

views on things like same-sex marriage, but how do you feel as a

:16:17.:16:21.

marriage, but how do you feel as a marriage, but how do you feel as a

:16:21.:16:22.

lay Catholic when Michael Sayers lay Catholic when Michael Sayers

:16:22.:16:23.

lay Catholic when Michael Sayers lay Catholic when Michael Sayers

:16:23.:16:25.

dog isn't going to change. That is dog isn't going to change. That is

:16:25.:16:27.

dog isn't going to change. That is dog isn't going to change. That is

:16:27.:16:31.

not what is going to happen. -- not what is going to happen. --

:16:31.:16:32.

dogma. Cardinal Manning talked dogma. Cardinal Manning talked

:16:32.:16:34.

dogma. Cardinal Manning talked about inflexibility. That is what

:16:34.:16:35.

about inflexibility. That is what about inflexibility. That is what

:16:35.:16:37.

Michael likes. I think we should Michael likes. I think we should

:16:37.:16:38.

Michael likes. I think we should discern the Times would puts us

:16:38.:16:41.

discern the Times would puts us discern the Times would puts us

:16:41.:16:43.

discern the Times would puts us into two camps. I say... These are

:16:43.:16:45.

into two camps. I say... These are into two camps. I say... These are

:16:45.:16:47.

promises, not fowls. This is not promises, not fowls. This is not

:16:47.:16:48.

promises, not fowls. This is not promises, not fowls. This is not

:16:48.:16:49.

dogma. It could be changed. Lots of dogma. It could be changed. Lots of

:16:49.:16:50.

dogma. It could be changed. Lots of things could be changed which

:16:50.:16:51.

things could be changed which things could be changed which

:16:51.:16:52.

people don't think can be changed people don't think can be changed

:16:52.:16:54.

people don't think can be changed because they like tradition. I like

:16:54.:16:55.

because they like tradition. I like because they like tradition. I like

:16:55.:16:56.

tradition as much as the next tradition as much as the next

:16:56.:16:57.

tradition as much as the next tradition as much as the next

:16:57.:16:58.

person but when it starts to damage person but when it starts to damage

:16:58.:17:00.

person but when it starts to damage person but when it starts to damage

:17:00.:17:01.

the church, I start to wonder... I the church, I start to wonder... I

:17:01.:17:03.

understand the difference between understand the difference between

:17:03.:17:04.

understand the difference between dogma and tradition, but I don't

:17:04.:17:05.

dogma and tradition, but I don't dogma and tradition, but I don't

:17:05.:17:06.

know we have to stick absolutely know we have to stick absolutely

:17:06.:17:08.

know we have to stick absolutely know we have to stick absolutely

:17:08.:17:09.

but -- to the letter of tradition but -- to the letter of tradition

:17:09.:17:11.

but -- to the letter of tradition when the beauty of stability

:17:11.:17:13.

when the beauty of stability when the beauty of stability

:17:13.:17:16.

becomes ugly and the church starts becomes ugly and the church starts

:17:16.:17:17.

becomes ugly and the church starts to implode. It doesn't apply to

:17:17.:17:23.

to implode. It doesn't apply to whom sexuality. Cardinal Keith

:17:23.:17:27.

whom sexuality. Cardinal Keith O'Brien himself implied priests

:17:27.:17:33.

O'Brien himself implied priests O'Brien himself implied priests

:17:33.:17:34.

could married. The point is could married. The point is

:17:34.:17:35.

could married. The point is could married. The point is

:17:35.:17:35.

homosexuality is a sin. And if they homosexuality is a sin. And if they

:17:35.:17:36.

homosexuality is a sin. And if they homosexuality is a sin. And if they

:17:36.:17:37.

are going to run a gone that and are going to run a gone that and

:17:37.:17:38.

are going to run a gone that and are going to run a gone that and

:17:38.:17:39.

are going to run a gone that and say it is no longer a sin, it is

:17:39.:17:40.

say it is no longer a sin, it is say it is no longer a sin, it is

:17:40.:17:41.

not going to happen. The way not going to happen. The way

:17:41.:17:43.

not going to happen. The way Catholics in Scotland deal with

:17:43.:17:44.

Catholics in Scotland deal with Catholics in Scotland deal with

:17:44.:17:46.

homosexuals is a different thing. homosexuals is a different thing.

:17:46.:17:48.

homosexuals is a different thing. The tone has been too strident,

:17:48.:17:50.

The tone has been too strident, The tone has been too strident,

:17:50.:17:51.

possibly wrong. To expect the possibly wrong. To expect the

:17:51.:17:52.

possibly wrong. To expect the possibly wrong. To expect the

:17:52.:17:52.

church to say they will knock that church to say they will knock that

:17:52.:17:53.

church to say they will knock that church to say they will knock that

:17:53.:17:54.

off the list of sins, it's not off the list of sins, it's not

:17:54.:17:56.

off the list of sins, it's not going to happen. So, people will

:17:56.:17:57.

going to happen. So, people will going to happen. So, people will

:17:57.:17:59.

depart because if they don't think it is a

:17:59.:18:00.

depart because if they don't think depart because if they don't think

:18:00.:18:01.

it is a sin, it is difficult to it is a sin, it is difficult to

:18:01.:18:01.

it is a sin, it is difficult to it is a sin, it is difficult to

:18:01.:18:04.

remain in a church which bangs on remain in a church which bangs on

:18:04.:18:07.

remain in a church which bangs on about it. Using such language that

:18:07.:18:08.

about it. Using such language that about it. Using such language that

:18:08.:18:09.

about it. Using such language that is where the division will come.

:18:09.:18:10.

is where the division will come. is where the division will come.

:18:10.:18:13.

is where the division will come. have run out of time. John, as you

:18:13.:18:14.

have run out of time. John, as you have run out of time. John, as you

:18:14.:18:17.

have run out of time. John, as you are an adviser to the Vatican, do

:18:17.:18:18.

are an adviser to the Vatican, do are an adviser to the Vatican, do

:18:18.:18:26.

you think there will be any I hope that there will be some

:18:26.:18:27.

I hope that there will be some I hope that there will be some

:18:27.:18:28.

I hope that there will be some change in the way the church orders

:18:28.:18:30.

change in the way the church orders change in the way the church orders

:18:30.:18:31.

itself but not in regard to itself but not in regard to

:18:31.:18:33.

itself but not in regard to question of faith and morals.

:18:33.:18:34.

question of faith and morals. question of faith and morals.

:18:34.:18:39.

Now, Scotland's success or Now, Scotland's success or

:18:39.:18:40.

Now, Scotland's success or otherwise as a centre for the

:18:40.:18:41.

otherwise as a centre for the otherwise as a centre for the

:18:41.:18:42.

creative industries is part of the creative industries is part of the

:18:42.:18:44.

creative industries is part of the creative industries is part of the

:18:44.:18:44.

great debate these days. As far as great debate these days. As far as

:18:44.:18:45.

great debate these days. As far as television is concerned, much has

:18:45.:18:46.

television is concerned, much has television is concerned, much has

:18:46.:18:47.

been made of Denmark's recent been made of Denmark's recent

:18:47.:18:48.

phenomenal record for producing phenomenal record for producing

:18:48.:18:49.

phenomenal record for producing exportable TV, even if it needs

:18:49.:18:50.

exportable TV, even if it needs exportable TV, even if it needs

:18:50.:18:51.

subtitles in this and many other subtitles in this and many other

:18:51.:18:52.

subtitles in this and many other countries. The Killing, The Bridge,

:18:52.:18:52.

countries. The Killing, The Bridge, countries. The Killing, The Bridge,

:18:53.:18:53.

countries. The Killing, The Bridge, and now Borgen, a story of the

:18:53.:18:54.

and now Borgen, a story of the drama involved in political

:18:54.:18:55.

drama involved in political drama involved in political

:18:55.:18:56.

intrigue, are being watched across intrigue, are being watched across

:18:56.:18:57.

intrigue, are being watched across the world. Could we learn from

:18:57.:18:58.

the world. Could we learn from that? Our correspondent Raymond

:18:58.:18:59.

that? Our correspondent Raymond that? Our correspondent Raymond

:18:59.:19:00.

Buchanan has come back from Denmark Buchanan has come back from Denmark

:19:00.:19:07.

with this report. with this report.

:19:07.:19:09.

with this report. Politics is often dramatic. TV

:19:09.:19:10.

Politics is often dramatic. TV Politics is often dramatic. TV

:19:10.:19:14.

drama is rarely -- really about drama is rarely -- really about

:19:14.:19:15.

drama is rarely -- really about politics. So, Borgen has been an

:19:15.:19:17.

politics. So, Borgen has been an unlikely worldwide hit. 60

:19:17.:19:20.

unlikely worldwide hit. 60 unlikely worldwide hit. 60

:19:20.:19:22.

countries are following the public countries are following the public

:19:22.:19:24.

countries are following the public and private turmoil of a female

:19:24.:19:24.

and private turmoil of a female and private turmoil of a female

:19:24.:19:27.

Prime Minister and her supporting Prime Minister and her supporting

:19:27.:19:28.

Prime Minister and her supporting cast. Birgitte is played by this

:19:29.:19:34.

cast. Birgitte is played by this cast. Birgitte is played by this

:19:34.:19:35.

woman. Katrine Fonsmark is a woman. Katrine Fonsmark is a

:19:35.:19:36.

woman. Katrine Fonsmark is a journalist reporting on the Prime

:19:36.:19:38.

journalist reporting on the Prime journalist reporting on the Prime

:19:38.:19:39.

Minister's troubles. We have done Minister's troubles. We have done

:19:39.:19:40.

Minister's troubles. We have done crime shows before that have had

:19:40.:19:41.

crime shows before that have had crime shows before that have had

:19:41.:19:42.

crime shows before that have had some kind of life in Sweden and

:19:42.:19:44.

some kind of life in Sweden and some kind of life in Sweden and

:19:44.:19:45.

Norway and Germany but nobody Norway and Germany but nobody

:19:45.:19:47.

Norway and Germany but nobody thought this would go anywhere

:19:47.:19:49.

thought this would go anywhere thought this would go anywhere

:19:49.:19:50.

besides Denmark. So it is very besides Denmark. So it is very

:19:50.:19:52.

besides Denmark. So it is very strange, but we are pleased and

:19:52.:19:53.

strange, but we are pleased and strange, but we are pleased and

:19:53.:19:54.

strange, but we are pleased and proud that people have taken to it

:19:54.:19:55.

proud that people have taken to it proud that people have taken to it

:19:55.:19:57.

proud that people have taken to it like they have. The idea came from

:19:58.:19:59.

like they have. The idea came from like they have. The idea came from

:19:59.:19:59.

this man who believes politics can this man who believes politics can

:19:59.:20:01.

this man who believes politics can make good television but the story

:20:01.:20:02.

make good television but the story make good television but the story

:20:02.:20:04.

needs to be compelling. That's why needs to be compelling. That's why

:20:04.:20:05.

needs to be compelling. That's why needs to be compelling. That's why

:20:05.:20:06.

he made the most powerful person in he made the most powerful person in

:20:06.:20:08.

he made the most powerful person in he made the most powerful person in

:20:08.:20:09.

the country a woman. I thought it the country a woman. I thought it

:20:09.:20:13.

the country a woman. I thought it the country a woman. I thought it

:20:13.:20:14.

would be more painful to watch a would be more painful to watch a

:20:14.:20:15.

would be more painful to watch a would be more painful to watch a

:20:15.:20:16.

woman lose all that that makes her woman lose all that that makes her

:20:16.:20:19.

woman lose all that that makes her character round it and beautiful

:20:19.:20:20.

character round it and beautiful character round it and beautiful

:20:20.:20:21.

character round it and beautiful and her love life, her sex life,

:20:21.:20:24.

and her love life, her sex life, and her love life, her sex life,

:20:24.:20:25.

her children, family life. And she her children, family life. And she

:20:25.:20:27.

her children, family life. And she her children, family life. And she

:20:27.:20:28.

uses all of that. And I thought uses all of that. And I thought

:20:28.:20:30.

uses all of that. And I thought uses all of that. And I thought

:20:30.:20:31.

therefore we need a woman in that therefore we need a woman in that

:20:31.:20:34.

therefore we need a woman in that chair. Because it would be much

:20:34.:20:35.

chair. Because it would be much chair. Because it would be much

:20:36.:20:37.

chair. Because it would be much more painful to watch. It would be

:20:37.:20:38.

more painful to watch. It would be more painful to watch. It would be

:20:38.:20:39.

a more moving experience. Do you a more moving experience. Do you

:20:39.:20:41.

a more moving experience. Do you think that is the case for

:20:41.:20:43.

think that is the case for politicians in real life?

:20:43.:20:46.

politicians in real life? politicians in real life?

:20:46.:20:48.

Definitely. And I think not only Definitely. And I think not only

:20:48.:20:53.

Definitely. And I think not only for female politicians, but also...

:20:53.:20:54.

for female politicians, but also... for female politicians, but also...

:20:54.:20:58.

Women in big business, women with Women in big business, women with

:20:58.:20:59.

Women in big business, women with big careers. Because they put such

:20:59.:21:00.

big careers. Because they put such big careers. Because they put such

:21:00.:21:02.

a strain on themselves because they a strain on themselves because they

:21:02.:21:05.

a strain on themselves because they a strain on themselves because they

:21:05.:21:06.

want to be good at everything. They want to be good at everything. They

:21:06.:21:07.

want to be good at everything. They want to be multi-dimensional and

:21:07.:21:10.

want to be multi-dimensional and want to be multi-dimensional and

:21:10.:21:14.

they want to be... God-like, multi- they want to be... God-like, multi-

:21:15.:21:16.

they want to be... God-like, multi- tasking beings. And I don't think

:21:16.:21:17.

tasking beings. And I don't think tasking beings. And I don't think

:21:17.:21:21.

men have ever been that ambitious. men have ever been that ambitious.

:21:21.:21:24.

men have ever been that ambitious. Borgen is the latest hit the

:21:24.:21:26.

Borgen is the latest hit the Denmark. Previous successes have

:21:26.:21:32.

Denmark. Previous successes have Denmark. Previous successes have

:21:32.:21:32.

been crime dramas. This was the been crime dramas. This was the

:21:32.:21:35.

been crime dramas. This was the prime minister's office in Borgen.

:21:35.:21:36.

prime minister's office in Borgen. prime minister's office in Borgen.

:21:36.:21:36.

This company is publicly funded This company is publicly funded

:21:37.:21:38.

This company is publicly funded This company is publicly funded

:21:38.:21:41.

which is why they were able to make which is why they were able to make

:21:41.:21:42.

Borgen. Would a commercial Borgen. Would a commercial

:21:42.:21:45.

Borgen. Would a commercial broadcaster made Borgen? No.Why

:21:45.:21:46.

broadcaster made Borgen? No.Why broadcaster made Borgen? No.Why

:21:46.:21:48.

broadcaster made Borgen? No.Why not? It is too risky for them.Why

:21:48.:21:51.

not? It is too risky for them.Why not? It is too risky for them.Why

:21:51.:21:53.

not? It is too risky for them.Why risky? You are always when you have

:21:53.:21:55.

risky? You are always when you have risky? You are always when you have

:21:55.:21:56.

risky? You are always when you have to commercial hat on, you will go

:21:56.:21:57.

to commercial hat on, you will go to commercial hat on, you will go

:21:57.:21:59.

to commercial hat on, you will go for how the stuff works. Borgen was

:21:59.:22:01.

for how the stuff works. Borgen was for how the stuff works. Borgen was

:22:01.:22:02.

for how the stuff works. Borgen was a risky. It has even been suggested

:22:02.:22:04.

a risky. It has even been suggested a risky. It has even been suggested

:22:04.:22:05.

politicians have taken ideas from politicians have taken ideas from

:22:05.:22:06.

politicians have taken ideas from politicians have taken ideas from

:22:06.:22:07.

the show and turned them into their the show and turned them into their

:22:07.:22:09.

the show and turned them into their the show and turned them into their

:22:09.:22:12.

own policies. A case of real life own policies. A case of real life

:22:12.:22:13.

own policies. A case of real life imitating art. Actually, there was

:22:13.:22:18.

imitating art. Actually, there was imitating art. Actually, there was

:22:18.:22:18.

a Conservative politician, wanted a a Conservative politician, wanted a

:22:19.:22:21.

a Conservative politician, wanted a new law put through in Parliament

:22:21.:22:23.

new law put through in Parliament new law put through in Parliament

:22:23.:22:24.

because of something she sought in because of something she sought in

:22:24.:22:26.

because of something she sought in the series. Which is interesting!

:22:26.:22:29.

the series. Which is interesting! the series. Which is interesting!

:22:29.:22:30.

the series. Which is interesting! That was the first... That was a

:22:31.:22:31.

That was the first... That was a That was the first... That was a

:22:31.:22:33.

law of legalising prostitution in law of legalising prostitution in

:22:33.:22:35.

law of legalising prostitution in law of legalising prostitution in

:22:35.:22:36.

Denmark. It may be one of Denmark's Denmark. It may be one of Denmark's

:22:36.:22:37.

Denmark. It may be one of Denmark's most successful exports but a

:22:37.:22:39.

most successful exports but a most successful exports but a

:22:39.:22:39.

programme about its politics will programme about its politics will

:22:39.:22:41.

programme about its politics will programme about its politics will

:22:41.:22:42.

soon come to an end. The third and soon come to an end. The third and

:22:42.:22:44.

soon come to an end. The third and final series of Borgen will be

:22:44.:22:45.

final series of Borgen will be final series of Borgen will be

:22:46.:22:47.

broadcast here later this month. broadcast here later this month.

:22:47.:22:48.

broadcast here later this month. broadcast here later this month.

:22:48.:22:50.

Time for a quick look at the front Time for a quick look at the front

:22:50.:22:54.

Time for a quick look at the front pages. The Scotsman. RBS targets

:22:54.:22:56.

pages. The Scotsman. RBS targets pages. The Scotsman. RBS targets

:22:56.:22:57.

next year to start sale of next year to start sale of

:22:57.:23:07.
:23:07.:23:12.

taxpayers' bank shares. The It is about the soldier, Manning.

:23:12.:23:13.

It is about the soldier, Manning. It is about the soldier, Manning.

:23:13.:23:14.

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