27/02/2013 Newsnight Scotland

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: It's Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: It's

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: It's Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: It's

one of the small countries the SNP one of the small countries the SNP

one of the small countries the SNP likes to compare Scotland with. So,

likes to compare Scotland with. So, likes to compare Scotland with. So,

likes to compare Scotland with. So, we've been to Denmark to do just

we've been to Denmark to do just we've been to Denmark to do just

we've been to Denmark to do just that. And we ask, if the centre-

that. And we ask, if the centre- that. And we ask, if the centre-

left likes the Scandinavian welfare left likes the Scandinavian welfare

left likes the Scandinavian welfare left likes the Scandinavian welfare

model so much, why doesn't it adopt model so much, why doesn't it adopt

model so much, why doesn't it adopt model so much, why doesn't it adopt

the tax policies needed to pay for Good evening. Social justice and

Good evening. Social justice and Good evening. Social justice and

fairness have, in recent months, fairness have, in recent months,

fairness have, in recent months, fairness have, in recent months,

been placed at the very heart of been placed at the very heart of

been placed at the very heart of been placed at the very heart of

the campaign for a Yes vote in next the campaign for a Yes vote in next

year's referendum. The argument year's referendum. The argument

year's referendum. The argument goes that an independent Scotland,

goes that an independent Scotland, goes that an independent Scotland,

in charge of all the important in charge of all the important

in charge of all the important policy levers and with the

policy levers and with the policy levers and with the

political will, can tackle many of political will, can tackle many of

political will, can tackle many of the intractable problems of poverty

the intractable problems of poverty the intractable problems of poverty

the intractable problems of poverty as well as even out some of the

as well as even out some of the social, educational and health

social, educational and health social, educational and health

inequalities present in our society. inequalities present in our society.

inequalities present in our society. inequalities present in our society.

Just look at Norway, say the SNP. Just look at Norway, say the SNP.

Just look at Norway, say the SNP. Or Sweden, or, for that matter,

Or Sweden, or, for that matter, Denmark. Well, our political

Denmark. Well, our political correspondent Raymond Buchanan's

correspondent Raymond Buchanan's correspondent Raymond Buchanan's

correspondent Raymond Buchanan's been to Copenhagen to see how, in

been to Copenhagen to see how, in been to Copenhagen to see how, in

been to Copenhagen to see how, in fact, the Danes manage and pay for

fact, the Danes manage and pay for their welfare state.

their welfare state. their welfare state.

Welcome to a small and successful Welcome to a small and successful

Welcome to a small and successful European state, but some of the

European state, but some of the European state, but some of the

happiest citizens on earth. It is happiest citizens on earth. It is

little wonder supporters of little wonder supporters of

Scottish independent look across Scottish independent look across

Scottish independent look across the North Sea for inspiration. Take

the North Sea for inspiration. Take the North Sea for inspiration. Take

child care. Parents get big state child care. Parents get big state

child care. Parents get big state subsidies to have their little ones

subsidies to have their little ones subsidies to have their little ones

to look dafter. Without it, we to look dafter. Without it, we

to look dafter. Without it, we to look dafter. Without it, we

could not have this kind of society could not have this kind of society

could not have this kind of society we have. Because both parents are

we have. Because both parents are we have. Because both parents are

working in most households, that working in most households, that

working in most households, that working in most households, that

his wife. �300 a month buys all-day his wife. �300 a month buys all-day

his wife. �300 a month buys all-day childcare. But this kind of benefit

childcare. But this kind of benefit childcare. But this kind of benefit

is only possible because the Danes is only possible because the Danes

is only possible because the Danes is only possible because the Danes

pay over half of their wages and pay over half of their wages and

pay over half of their wages and pay over half of their wages and

taxes. Taxes are way too high. It taxes. Taxes are way too high. It

taxes. Taxes are way too high. It taxes. Taxes are way too high. It

is unreasonable to pay 65% tax. But is unreasonable to pay 65% tax. But

is unreasonable to pay 65% tax. But is unreasonable to pay 65% tax. But

for a decade, that is the deal for a decade, that is the deal

for a decade, that is the deal which the Danish parliament has

which the Danish parliament has which the Danish parliament has

offered its people, charging some offered its people, charging some

offered its people, charging some of the highest taxes anywhere in

of the highest taxes anywhere in of the highest taxes anywhere in

the world. But the benefits are the world. But the benefits are

the world. But the benefits are the world. But the benefits are

generous. If you lose your job in generous. If you lose your job in

this country, your unemployment this country, your unemployment

this country, your unemployment this country, your unemployment

benefit is worth �400 a week! But benefit is worth �400 a week! But

benefit is worth �400 a week! But Denmark's welfare system is being

Denmark's welfare system is being Denmark's welfare system is being

reviewed. The population is getting reviewed. The population is getting

reviewed. The population is getting older, meaning that there will be

older, meaning that there will be older, meaning that there will be

fewer workers to pay taxes. So fewer workers to pay taxes. So

fewer workers to pay taxes. So Danes are being asked to work

Danes are being asked to work Danes are being asked to work

longer. If longevity is increased, longer. If longevity is increased,

longer. If longevity is increased, you need to restore the balance

you need to restore the balance you need to restore the balance

you need to restore the balance between the part of your life that

between the part of your life that between the part of your life that

between the part of your life that you work and earn money and pay

you work and earn money and pay you work and earn money and pay

you work and earn money and pay taxes and the part of your life

taxes and the part of your life taxes and the part of your life

where you enjoy the benefits from where you enjoy the benefits from

where you enjoy the benefits from the public system. And the changes

the public system. And the changes the public system. And the changes

the public system. And the changes to the welfare system have won a

to the welfare system have won a broad political support inside

broad political support inside broad political support inside

Parliament. Of course, there are Parliament. Of course, there are

Parliament. Of course, there are differences - some parties are more

differences - some parties are more differences - some parties are more

differences - some parties are more keen to have lower taxes and put

keen to have lower taxes and put keen to have lower taxes and put

ceilings on public budgets. There ceilings on public budgets. There

ceilings on public budgets. There ceilings on public budgets. There

are a number of parties who have are a number of parties who have

are a number of parties who have are a number of parties who have

more or less a consensus that we more or less a consensus that we

more or less a consensus that we more or less a consensus that we

should try to keep the model, with should try to keep the model, with

should try to keep the model, with adjustments and reforms, but not

adjustments and reforms, but not adjustments and reforms, but not

adjustments and reforms, but not send a model totally way. John is

send a model totally way. John is send a model totally way. John is

the finance spokesman for the the finance spokesman for the

the finance spokesman for the Danish version of the Labour Party.

Danish version of the Labour Party. Danish version of the Labour Party.

Danish version of the Labour Party. He says there next targets will be

He says there next targets will be He says there next targets will be

early retirement and sick benefits. early retirement and sick benefits.

early retirement and sick benefits. But he insists the Scandinavian way

But he insists the Scandinavian way But he insists the Scandinavian way

of delivering what they can survive. of delivering what they can survive.

of delivering what they can survive. Yes, a population like this cannot

Yes, a population like this cannot Yes, a population like this cannot

sustain a welfare system. But we sustain a welfare system. But we

sustain a welfare system. But we sustain a welfare system. But we

need to look at it on an everyday need to look at it on an everyday

need to look at it on an everyday need to look at it on an everyday

need to look at it on an everyday basis. Do we do this as good as we

basis. Do we do this as good as we basis. Do we do this as good as we

basis. Do we do this as good as we basis. Do we do this as good as we

can? Is this the way to do this? We can? Is this the way to do this? We

can? Is this the way to do this? We can? Is this the way to do this? We

have to do their every way. But for have to do their every way. But for

Scotland's to copy Denmark's Scotland's to copy Denmark's

Scotland's to copy Denmark's welfare benefits would mean a hefty

welfare benefits would mean a hefty welfare benefits would mean a hefty

welfare benefits would mean a hefty tax increases and none of the major

tax increases and none of the major tax increases and none of the major

parties are suggesting that. So the parties are suggesting that. So the

parties are suggesting that. So the Scandinavian system will not be

Scandinavian system will not be Scandinavian system will not be

travelling westwards any time soon. travelling westwards any time soon.

travelling westwards any time soon. Joining me now from London is

Joining me now from London is Joining me now from London is

Adrian Wooldridge of The Economist Adrian Wooldridge of The Economist

who's written about the who's written about the

Scandinavian economies. Here in Scandinavian economies. Here in

Scandinavian economies. Here in Glasgow is Jim McCormick, a policy

Glasgow is Jim McCormick, a policy Glasgow is Jim McCormick, a policy

analyst. He's studied British and analyst. He's studied British and

analyst. He's studied British and Danish welfare systems. And Linda

Danish welfare systems. And Linda Danish welfare systems. And Linda

Fabiani SNP MSP and member of Fabiani SNP MSP and member of

Holyrood's Welfare Reform Committee Holyrood's Welfare Reform Committee

Holyrood's Welfare Reform Committee Holyrood's Welfare Reform Committee

joins us from Edinburgh. You got an joins us from Edinburgh. You got an

extensive review on the extensive review on the

Scandinavian economy, and whether Scandinavian economy, and whether

Scandinavian economy, and whether they could adjust their model to

they could adjust their model to they could adjust their model to

cope with the realities. You cope with the realities. You

cope with the realities. You concluded that they probably could.

concluded that they probably could. concluded that they probably could.

I think these Scandinavian model I think these Scandinavian model

has been changing dramatically has been changing dramatically

has been changing dramatically has been changing dramatically

since the early 1990s. You had what since the early 1990s. You had what

since the early 1990s. You had what was once a socialist set of

was once a socialist set of was once a socialist set of

countries that have been reforming. countries that have been reforming.

countries that have been reforming. There have been privatising the

There have been privatising the There have been privatising the

delivery of their wealthy services. delivery of their wealthy services.

delivery of their wealthy services. delivery of their wealthy services.

Denmark is beginning to move in the Denmark is beginning to move in the

Denmark is beginning to move in the same direction as Sweden. The

same direction as Sweden. The Nordic model is changing

Nordic model is changing dramatically. Tax rates, although

dramatically. Tax rates, although dramatically. Tax rates, although

dramatically. Tax rates, although they may be cutting them, are still

they may be cutting them, are still they may be cutting them, are still

they may be cutting them, are still high in Denmark - the top rate of

high in Denmark - the top rate of high in Denmark - the top rate of

high in Denmark - the top rate of tax is 60%. Denmark has hired and

tax is 60%. Denmark has hired and tax is 60%. Denmark has hired and

Sweden. They are high. -- higher Sweden. They are high. -- higher

Sweden. They are high. -- higher Sweden. They are high. -- higher

than at Sweden. But there is a than at Sweden. But there is a

than at Sweden. But there is a general move towards a more liberal,

general move towards a more liberal, general move towards a more liberal,

economic model, away from a economic model, away from a

economic model, away from a corporate model. I would imagine

corporate model. I would imagine corporate model. I would imagine

corporate model. I would imagine that in 10 years' time, tax rates

that in 10 years' time, tax rates that in 10 years' time, tax rates

that in 10 years' time, tax rates will be lower than they are now.

will be lower than they are now. will be lower than they are now.

will be lower than they are now. The SNP often say it looked to the

The SNP often say it looked to the The SNP often say it looked to the

small countries. But would you ever small countries. But would you ever

small countries. But would you ever small countries. But would you ever

be prepared to proposed tax rate of be prepared to proposed tax rate of

be prepared to proposed tax rate of be prepared to proposed tax rate of

60%? We can't live but that in 60%? We can't live but that in

60%? We can't live but that in 60%? We can't live but that in

isolation - you have to look at isolation - you have to look at

isolation - you have to look at isolation - you have to look at

salaries as well. -- look at that. salaries as well. -- look at that.

salaries as well. -- look at that. The most important thing is these

The most important thing is these The most important thing is these

are countries which make their own are countries which make their own

decisions. Small, independent decisions. Small, independent

decisions. Small, independent countries are doing extremely well,

countries are doing extremely well, countries are doing extremely well,

countries are doing extremely well, and that is shown by all the

and that is shown by all the and that is shown by all the

and that is shown by all the studies. I am not quite with you.

studies. I am not quite with you. studies. I am not quite with you.

studies. I am not quite with you. So you don't want the tax rates?

So you don't want the tax rates? So you don't want the tax rates?

Lots of small countries have Lots of small countries have

Lots of small countries have policies you would find horrendous.

policies you would find horrendous. policies you would find horrendous.

policies you would find horrendous. Why is that relevant? I thought we

Why is that relevant? I thought we Why is that relevant? I thought we

should look to Scandinavia because should look to Scandinavia because

should look to Scandinavia because should look to Scandinavia because

you like a model. There is an awful you like a model. There is an awful

you like a model. There is an awful lot of good stuff happening in

lot of good stuff happening in lot of good stuff happening in

Scandinavia. What am saying is you Scandinavia. What am saying is you

Scandinavia. What am saying is you cannot take one thing out in

cannot take one thing out in cannot take one thing out in

isolation. In Denmark, compared to isolation. In Denmark, compared to

isolation. In Denmark, compared to isolation. In Denmark, compared to

the UK, 30 is indirect taxation in the UK, 30 is indirect taxation in

the UK, 30 is indirect taxation in the UK, 30 is indirect taxation in

the UK, which could be compared. -- the UK, which could be compared. --

the UK, which could be compared. -- there is. There is more indirect

there is. There is more indirect there is. There is more indirect

taxation compared to VAT, for taxation compared to VAT, for

taxation compared to VAT, for example, fuel. Denmark has made the

example, fuel. Denmark has made the example, fuel. Denmark has made the

example, fuel. Denmark has made the choice to do really good child care

choice to do really good child care choice to do really good child care

choice to do really good child care so that people can work. They make

so that people can work. They make so that people can work. They make

these choices and decisions. That these choices and decisions. That

these choices and decisions. That is a choice that that independent

is a choice that that independent is a choice that that independent

is a choice that that independent nation has taken. But that is paid

nation has taken. But that is paid nation has taken. But that is paid

nation has taken. But that is paid for by a higher tax rates. I am

for by a higher tax rates. I am for by a higher tax rates. I am

struggling to see what you would struggling to see what you would

struggling to see what you would struggling to see what you would

want to copy in a model. What we're want to copy in a model. What we're

want to copy in a model. What we're want to copy in a model. What we're

would do is look are all the would do is look are all the

would do is look are all the different models. We look at what

different models. We look at what different models. We look at what

different models. We look at what is best and adapted for what is

is best and adapted for what is is best and adapted for what is

best for your own nation. best for your own nation.

Unfortunately, Scotland cannot do Unfortunately, Scotland cannot do

Unfortunately, Scotland cannot do Unfortunately, Scotland cannot do

that right now. Do you take this that right now. Do you take this

that right now. Do you take this sort of think seriously? What

sort of think seriously? What sort of think seriously? What

sort of think seriously? What should we do? Denmark is a good

should we do? Denmark is a good should we do? Denmark is a good

example, not just because it has example, not just because it has

example, not just because it has the same population as Scotland,

the same population as Scotland, the same population as Scotland,

but it has had a relatively but it has had a relatively

but it has had a relatively sluggish rate of economic growth.

sluggish rate of economic growth. sluggish rate of economic growth.

But despite that, they have managed But despite that, they have managed

But despite that, they have managed to prioritise low cost and high

to prioritise low cost and high to prioritise low cost and high

quality child care. It is partly quality child care. It is partly

quality child care. It is partly about higher taxes, but what is

about higher taxes, but what is about higher taxes, but what is

interesting is that taxes are interesting is that taxes are

interesting is that taxes are relatively low work with employers

relatively low work with employers relatively low work with employers

than a much of Europe. -- than a much of Europe. --

than a much of Europe. -- than a much of Europe. --

relatively low were. So it is a relatively low were. So it is a

relatively low were. So it is a more complicated set of issues. But

more complicated set of issues. But more complicated set of issues. But

more complicated set of issues. But this to will have to levy those

this to will have to levy those this to will have to levy those

this to will have to levy those taxes! -- and they still have to.

taxes! -- and they still have to. taxes! -- and they still have to.

taxes! -- and they still have to. By the time we get more powers, we

By the time we get more powers, we By the time we get more powers, we

By the time we get more powers, we will be on a different part way. I

will be on a different part way. I will be on a different part way. I

will be on a different part way. I am keen we do not use the

am keen we do not use the am keen we do not use the

am keen we do not use the referendum to stop us doing some of

referendum to stop us doing some of referendum to stop us doing some of

referendum to stop us doing some of the things, long term, we can do

the things, long term, we can do the things, long term, we can do

the things, long term, we can do over here. It is not just high

over here. It is not just high over here. It is not just high

over here. It is not just high taxes, is it? In Denmark, it is

taxes, is it? In Denmark, it is taxes, is it? In Denmark, it is

taxes, is it? In Denmark, it is easy to hire and fire people as it

easy to hire and fire people as it easy to hire and fire people as it

is in the United States. Absolutely, is in the United States. Absolutely,

is in the United States. Absolutely, they put a huge emphasis on

they put a huge emphasis on they put a huge emphasis on

flexibility of the labour market. flexibility of the labour market.

flexibility of the labour market. flexibility of the labour market.

They make it easy to sack people. They make it easy to sack people.

They make it easy to sack people. By doing that, they have avoided

By doing that, they have avoided By doing that, they have avoided

the distinction between people who the distinction between people who

the distinction between people who have jobs and people who don't.

have jobs and people who don't. have jobs and people who don't.

have jobs and people who don't. They are trying to combine the best

They are trying to combine the best They are trying to combine the best

of both worlds - American dynamism of both worlds - American dynamism

of both worlds - American dynamism it with a European security. I

it with a European security. I it with a European security. I

it with a European security. I think they have done a very good

think they have done a very good think they have done a very good

think they have done a very good job of that. They don't just say it

job of that. They don't just say it job of that. They don't just say it

job of that. They don't just say it is easy to hire-and-fire - they put

is easy to hire-and-fire - they put is easy to hire-and-fire - they put

a lot of money into retraining a lot of money into retraining

a lot of money into retraining people. Earlier, you refer to the

people. Earlier, you refer to the people. Earlier, you refer to the

stimulus programme. They have laid stimulus programme. They have laid

stimulus programme. They have laid stimulus programme. They have laid

that have they will pay for that - that have they will pay for that -

they are cutting benefits, they are cutting benefits,

they are cutting benefits, basically, but what they are saying

basically, but what they are saying basically, but what they are saying

basically, but what they are saying is if you are able to work, you

is if you are able to work, you is if you are able to work, you

is if you are able to work, you will not get benefits, you would do

will not get benefits, you would do will not get benefits, you would do

community service. But they were community service. But they were

community service. But they were community service. But they were

also put a lot of money into also put a lot of money into

also put a lot of money into also put a lot of money into

training you, to get you back into training you, to get you back into

training you, to get you back into training you, to get you back into

the labour market. There are to add the labour market. There are to add

the labour market. There are to add the labour market. There are to add

a knob of things about what they do a knob of things about what they do

- enthusing everything with - enthusing everything with

- enthusing everything with responsibility, and the second is

responsibility, and the second is responsibility, and the second is

you should not be spending money you should not be spending money

you should not be spending money without raising it. Is there

without raising it. Is there without raising it. Is there

anything in that for you find anything in that for you find

anything in that for you find attractive? When Denmark made these

attractive? When Denmark made these attractive? When Denmark made these

changes, it was done with a changes, it was done with a

changes, it was done with a consultation and with the trade

consultation and with the trade consultation and with the trade

consultation and with the trade unions. They came up with a package

unions. They came up with a package unions. They came up with a package

that they thought was best for that they thought was best for

that they thought was best for their workforce, that could promote

their workforce, that could promote their workforce, that could promote

prosperity and fairness. That is prosperity and fairness. That is

prosperity and fairness. That is prosperity and fairness. That is

what I want for Scotland as well. I what I want for Scotland as well. I

what I want for Scotland as well. I what I want for Scotland as well. I

and confused again - so you say you and confused again - so you say you

and confused again - so you say you like the American policy? I don't

like the American policy? I don't like the American policy? I don't

know what you are confused, Gordon. know what you are confused, Gordon.

know what you are confused, Gordon. know what you are confused, Gordon.

When Denmark did this, it was done When Denmark did this, it was done

When Denmark did this, it was done over a long period with

over a long period with over a long period with

consultation. There is no reason consultation. There is no reason

consultation. There is no reason why Scotland cannot do the same.

why Scotland cannot do the same. why Scotland cannot do the same.

What about their well fair reforms? What about their well fair reforms?

What about their well fair reforms? -- welfare reforms. You won't be

-- welfare reforms. You won't be -- welfare reforms. You won't be

allowed to claim benefit, you were allowed to claim benefit, you were

allowed to claim benefit, you were going to community service, but

going to community service, but going to community service, but

going to community service, but they will be retrained. They have a

they will be retrained. They have a very good retraining programme.

very good retraining programme. Unfortunately, here, a welfare

Unfortunately, here, a welfare Unfortunately, here, a welfare

committee only looks at what committee only looks at what

committee only looks at what happens with welfare reform. What

happens with welfare reform. What happens with welfare reform. What

happens with welfare reform. What we should be looking at is a tax

we should be looking at is a tax we should be looking at is a tax

system and welfare system that is system and welfare system that is

system and welfare system that is integrated. We can be looking at

integrated. We can be looking at integrated. We can be looking at

integrated. We can be looking at things like that. What you find a

things like that. What you find a things like that. What you find a

things like that. What you find a tractor with this model? -- what do

tractor with this model? -- what do tractor with this model? -- what do

you find attractive. What I've find you find attractive. What I've find

you find attractive. What I've find attractive is the ability to sit

attractive is the ability to sit attractive is the ability to sit

down and talk these things through. down and talk these things through.

down and talk these things through. They do make tough decisions, don't

They do make tough decisions, don't They do make tough decisions, don't

They do make tough decisions, don't they? There is a higher rate of

they? There is a higher rate of conditionality with Nordic

conditionality with Nordic conditionality with Nordic

countries - you are expected to countries - you are expected to

countries - you are expected to countries - you are expected to

participate. And that is it -- and participate. And that is it -- and

participate. And that is it -- and that is accepted by the population?

that is accepted by the population? that is accepted by the population?

We have labour market failures here. We have labour market failures here.

That conditionality and That conditionality and

responsibilities, people are responsibilities, people are

responsibilities, people are underpinning them. People know that

underpinning them. People know that underpinning them. People know that

taking part in these programmes can taking part in these programmes can

taking part in these programmes can taking part in these programmes can

lead somewhere. But a to is the lead somewhere. But a to is the

lead somewhere. But a to is the culmination of the tough laugh --

culmination of the tough laugh -- culmination of the tough laugh --

tough laugh. We will invest money tough laugh. We will invest money

tough laugh. We will invest money in you, almost individual mentoring.

in you, almost individual mentoring. in you, almost individual mentoring.

in you, almost individual mentoring. It is, but it is investing your

It is, but it is investing your It is, but it is investing your

money. The big difference between money. The big difference between

money. The big difference between money. The big difference between

the UK, Scotland and Denmark is the the UK, Scotland and Denmark is the

the UK, Scotland and Denmark is the the UK, Scotland and Denmark is the

way in which they have not relied way in which they have not relied

way in which they have not relied on means testing. People pay end

on means testing. People pay end on means testing. People pay end

They are universal benefits. That They are universal benefits. That

They are universal benefits. That They are universal benefits. That

is not trust in Denmark. That is is not trust in Denmark. That is

is not trust in Denmark. That is is not trust in Denmark. That is

right. We must not paint to utopian right. We must not paint to utopian

right. We must not paint to utopian right. We must not paint to utopian

picture. When I was there a couple picture. When I was there a couple

picture. When I was there a couple picture. When I was there a couple

of months ago, there was a debate of months ago, there was a debate

of months ago, there was a debate about lazy Robert, who didn't have

about lazy Robert, who didn't have about lazy Robert, who didn't have

about lazy Robert, who didn't have to work and he had benefits and

to work and he had benefits and to work and he had benefits and

everybody was upset about that. I everybody was upset about that. I

everybody was upset about that. I everybody was upset about that. I

wanted to ask you, one of the wanted to ask you, one of the

wanted to ask you, one of the wanted to ask you, one of the

things that came out of your report things that came out of your report

things that came out of your report is how pragmatic they are. They

is how pragmatic they are. They is how pragmatic they are. They

entertain things that would be entertain things that would be

entertain things that would be taboo in Scotland. In Sweden, let's

taboo in Scotland. In Sweden, let's taboo in Scotland. In Sweden, let's

have private hospitals, they have have private hospitals, they have

have private hospitals, they have without the system where parents

without the system where parents without the system where parents

without the system where parents can make -- take money from the

can make -- take money from the can make -- take money from the

state, and send children to private state, and send children to private

state, and send children to private schools. Private schools run by

schools. Private schools run by schools. Private schools run by

private equity companies. And the private equity companies. And the

private equity companies. And the system in Denmark is one whereby

system in Denmark is one whereby system in Denmark is one whereby

system in Denmark is one whereby you can tap -- top up your vouchers

you can tap -- top up your vouchers you can tap -- top up your vouchers

you can tap -- top up your vouchers and you can spend 25% of the cost

and you can spend 25% of the cost and you can spend 25% of the cost

and you can spend 25% of the cost of going to state schools with your

of going to state schools with your of going to state schools with your

of going to state schools with your own money. So it is a sort of...

own money. So it is a sort of... own money. So it is a sort of...

Failure of the distinction that we Failure of the distinction that we

Failure of the distinction that we have absolutely between the public

have absolutely between the public have absolutely between the public

have absolutely between the public and private sector. It is a very

and private sector. It is a very pragmatic post-ideological politics.

pragmatic post-ideological politics. pragmatic post-ideological politics.

pragmatic post-ideological politics. I am very curious whether you find

I am very curious whether you find I am very curious whether you find

any of that attractive? Well, small any of that attractive? Well, small

any of that attractive? Well, small nations can be pragmatic. They can

nations can be pragmatic. They can nations can be pragmatic. They can

be fruitful. Denmark has free be fruitful. Denmark has free

education. I understand right education. I understand right

education. I understand right through to PhD level... Can you

through to PhD level... Can you through to PhD level... Can you

entertain the idea of public -- entertain the idea of public --

private companies running schools private companies running schools

private companies running schools private companies running schools

as they do in Sweden? Are I don't as they do in Sweden? Are I don't

as they do in Sweden? Are I don't know enough about it...

know enough about it... know enough about it...

parents... We are committed to free parents... We are committed to free

parents... We are committed to free education and we believe in public

education and we believe in public education without private companies

education without private companies education without private companies

running the show. Thank you all running the show. Thank you all

running the show. Thank you all very much. Frequently, the front

very much. Frequently, the front very much. Frequently, the front

pages, starting with the Herald. pages, starting with the Herald.

pages, starting with the Herald. Police misuse of and to sectarian

Police misuse of and to sectarian Police misuse of and to sectarian

powers. Fans were harassed, it is powers. Fans were harassed, it is

claimed. The Scotsman, courts claimed. The Scotsman, courts

claimed. The Scotsman, courts reform to give quicker, cheaper

reform to give quicker, cheaper reform to give quicker, cheaper

justice is its headline. That is justice is its headline. That is

justice is its headline. That is justice is its headline. That is

all we have time for tonight. I all we have time for tonight. I

all we have time for tonight. I all we have time for tonight. I