25/02/2013 Newsnight Scotland

On the day Scotland's Roman On the day Scotland's Roman

On the day Scotland's Roman Catholic cardinal resigned, we are

Catholic cardinal resigned, we are Catholic cardinal resigned, we are

debating what place, if any, or debating what place, if any, or

debating what place, if any, or Hello and welcome to the second in

Hello and welcome to the second in Hello and welcome to the second in

a series of special Newsnight a series of special Newsnight

a series of special Newsnight Scotland debates and when we chose

Scotland debates and when we chose Scotland debates and when we chose

the subject of tonight's discussion, the subject of tonight's discussion,

the subject of tonight's discussion, we could not have imagined how

we could not have imagined how we could not have imagined how

topical it would become. First the topical it would become. First the

topical it would become. First the Pope resigned and then this morning,

Pope resigned and then this morning, Scotland's Cardinal Keith O'Brien

Scotland's Cardinal Keith O'Brien resigned amid claims of

resigned amid claims of inappropriate behaviour over which

inappropriate behaviour over which inappropriate behaviour over which

inappropriate behaviour over which he is seeking legal advice. We will

he is seeking legal advice. We will he is seeking legal advice. We will

discuss the consequences of the discuss the consequences of the

discuss the consequences of the coddles decision and the wider

coddles decision and the wider coddles decision and the wider

coddles decision and the wider issue of the place of religion in

issue of the place of religion in issue of the place of religion in

modern Scottish life. Some argue it modern Scottish life. Some argue it

modern Scottish life. Some argue it is being squeezed out by aggressive

is being squeezed out by aggressive secularism, other so organised

secularism, other so organised secularism, other so organised

secularism, other so organised religion has no right to oppose it

religion has no right to oppose it religion has no right to oppose it

a deal on a largely irreligious a deal on a largely irreligious

a deal on a largely irreligious society. To discuss this I am

society. To discuss this I am society. To discuss this I am

joined by the Reverend Sally joined by the Reverend Sally

joined by the Reverend Sally Foster-Fulton who is convenor of

Foster-Fulton who is convenor of Foster-Fulton who is convenor of

the Church of Scotland's Church and the Church of Scotland's Church and

Society Council. Professor John Society Council. Professor John

Society Council. Professor John Haldane of St Andrew's University.

Haldane of St Andrew's University. Haldane of St Andrew's University.

Haldane of St Andrew's University. The Green MSP Patrick Harvie who is

The Green MSP Patrick Harvie who is The Green MSP Patrick Harvie who is

also a member of the National also a member of the National

also a member of the National Secular Society and Harry Reid, a

Secular Society and Harry Reid, a Secular Society and Harry Reid, a

former editor of the Herald former editor of the Herald

former editor of the Herald former editor of the Herald

newspaper who is writing a book on newspaper who is writing a book on

Scotland's relationship with religion.

religion. religion.

Let's go straight to our first Let's go straight to our first

Let's go straight to our first question. It comes from Michael.

question. It comes from Michael. question. It comes from Michael.

question. It comes from Michael. Does the panel agree that we should

Does the panel agree that we should Does the panel agree that we should

suspend any judgment of Cardinal suspend any judgment of Cardinal

suspend any judgment of Cardinal Keith O'Brien until the facts

Keith O'Brien until the facts surrounding the accusations are

surrounding the accusations are surrounding the accusations are

surrounding the accusations are known? Sally, first of all. I think

known? Sally, first of all. I think known? Sally, first of all. I think

one of the most counter-productive one of the most counter-productive

one of the most counter-productive one of the most counter-productive

things we can do it is surmised. things we can do it is surmised.

things we can do it is surmised. Sometimes we get just enough

Sometimes we get just enough Sometimes we get just enough

Sometimes we get just enough information to get the wrong end of

information to get the wrong end of information to get the wrong end of

the stick. The most important thing the stick. The most important thing

the stick. The most important thing the stick. The most important thing

we need to remember is on all sides we need to remember is on all sides

we need to remember is on all sides we need to remember is on all sides

of this there are people in pain of this there are people in pain

of this there are people in pain and distress and worried and

and distress and worried and and distress and worried and

grieving, and the worst thing we grieving, and the worst thing we

grieving, and the worst thing we grieving, and the worst thing we

could do is prejudge. We need to could do is prejudge. We need to

could do is prejudge. We need to step back and take the process.

step back and take the process. step back and take the process.

Patrick? For the certainly had to Patrick? For the certainly had to

suspend judgment on these suspend judgment on these

suspend judgment on these allegations. The wider point is at

allegations. The wider point is at allegations. The wider point is at

allegations. The wider point is at a time when some of the figureheads

a time when some of the figureheads a time when some of the figureheads

in the Catholic Church are changing, in the Catholic Church are changing,

in the Catholic Church are changing, in the Catholic Church are changing,

there is a glimmer of hope that there is a glimmer of hope that

there is a glimmer of hope that there is a glimmer of hope that

they could be a change of tone. The they could be a change of tone. The

cardinal, way beyond these cardinal, way beyond these

cardinal, way beyond these allegations, has been a relentless

allegations, has been a relentless allegations, has been a relentless

source of hostility to the equal source of hostility to the equal

source of hostility to the equal rights of lesbians, gay men,

rights of lesbians, gay men, rights of lesbians, gay men,

bisexual and Trans gender people bisexual and Trans gender people

bisexual and Trans gender people and I hope that will change.

and I hope that will change. and I hope that will change.

Professor, what do you think? Professor, what do you think?

Professor, what do you think? question is whether we should

question is whether we should question is whether we should

suspend judgment. This is the kind suspend judgment. This is the kind

suspend judgment. This is the kind of thing that happens within any

of thing that happens within any professional organisation. There

professional organisation. There professional organisation. There

are processes for dealing with are processes for dealing with

are processes for dealing with those and those processes are in

those and those processes are in those and those processes are in

hand and that investigation is hand and that investigation is

hand and that investigation is proceeding. The allegations will be

proceeding. The allegations will be fully investigated. Yes, that

fully investigated. Yes, that fully investigated. Yes, that

process had already begun. I think process had already begun. I think

process had already begun. I think in the circumstances he has done

in the circumstances he has done in the circumstances he has done

in the circumstances he has done the right thing. In the face of the

the right thing. In the face of the the right thing. In the face of the

fact that as you mentioned there fact that as you mentioned there

fact that as you mentioned there has been the resignation of the

has been the resignation of the has been the resignation of the

Pope, the imminence of a conclave Pope, the imminence of a conclave

Pope, the imminence of a conclave Pope, the imminence of a conclave

to elect a new pope. In these to elect a new pope. In these

to elect a new pope. In these circumstances, to go to Rome under

circumstances, to go to Rome under circumstances, to go to Rome under

the cloud of these allegations the cloud of these allegations

the cloud of these allegations the cloud of these allegations

would not be helpful for him, it would not be helpful for him, it

would not be helpful for him, it would attract attention, it would

would attract attention, it would would attract attention, it would

would attract attention, it would not be helpful to the church. If I

not be helpful to the church. If I not be helpful to the church. If I

could pick up Patrick's theme. could pick up Patrick's theme.

could pick up Patrick's theme. There is one respect in that

There is one respect in that There is one respect in that

whatever else is said about this, whatever else is said about this,

whatever else is said about this, there is one respect the archbishop

there is one respect the archbishop there is one respect the archbishop

there is one respect the archbishop has served his church well which he

has served his church well which he has served his church well which he

has been an iron evasive advocate has been an iron evasive advocate

has been an iron evasive advocate of his teachings and those

of his teachings and those of his teachings and those

teachings are unpopular in some teachings are unpopular in some

teachings are unpopular in some quarters and that is understood,

quarters and that is understood, quarters and that is understood,

quarters and that is understood, but I admire people, people who are

but I admire people, people who are but I admire people, people who are

forthright and clear in their views forthright and clear in their views

forthright and clear in their views forthright and clear in their views

forthright and clear in their views and I think for that he is to be

and I think for that he is to be and I think for that he is to be

given credit. Does that explain the given credit. Does that explain the

given credit. Does that explain the cardinal has been accused by three

cardinal has been accused by three cardinal has been accused by three

cardinal has been accused by three priests and one a former priest of

priests and one a former priest of acting inappropriately, the

acting inappropriately, the acting inappropriately, the

allegations date back to the 19 allegations date back to the 19

allegations date back to the 19 eighties. The Cardinal we are told

eighties. The Cardinal we are told eighties. The Cardinal we are told

is contesting them and seeking is contesting them and seeking

is contesting them and seeking is contesting them and seeking

legal advice. Harry? I think we do legal advice. Harry? I think we do

legal advice. Harry? I think we do have to suspend judgment. I take

have to suspend judgment. I take have to suspend judgment. I take

have to suspend judgment. I take the point, he has obviously been a

the point, he has obviously been a the point, he has obviously been a

forceful communicator and in been forceful communicator and in been

forceful communicator and in been forceful communicator and in been

forceful he has annoyed quite a lot forceful he has annoyed quite a lot

of people. Interestingly, his of people. Interestingly, his

of people. Interestingly, his sudden departure from the scene

sudden departure from the scene sudden departure from the scene

sudden departure from the scene will leave a gap. There is not

will leave a gap. There is not will leave a gap. There is not

going to be an obvious senior going to be an obvious senior

going to be an obvious senior church person in Scotland to speak

church person in Scotland to speak church person in Scotland to speak

out as he has so controversially out as he has so controversially

out as he has so controversially out as he has so controversially

and clearly on so many issues. Dare and clearly on so many issues. Dare

and clearly on so many issues. Dare I say, this possibly gives the

I say, this possibly gives the I say, this possibly gives the

Church of Scotland, which has been Church of Scotland, which has been

Church of Scotland, which has been Church of Scotland, which has been

very much in the background in the very much in the background in the

very much in the background in the communications stakes, it gives it

communications stakes, it gives it communications stakes, it gives it

communications stakes, it gives it a chance to move to the forefront

a chance to move to the forefront a chance to move to the forefront

a chance to move to the forefront because I think many people in the

because I think many people in the because I think many people in the

Church of Scotland have frequently Church of Scotland have frequently

Church of Scotland have frequently Church of Scotland have frequently

worried why we do not have a worried why we do not have a

communicator like coddle O'Brien? communicator like coddle O'Brien?

communicator like coddle O'Brien? Do you agree with the First

Do you agree with the First Do you agree with the First

Minister that we should not read Minister that we should not read

anything into the cardinal's anything into the cardinal's

anything into the cardinal's decision to step down with

decision to step down with decision to step down with

immediate effect and not to travel immediate effect and not to travel

immediate effect and not to travel immediate effect and not to travel

to Rome to take part in the to Rome to take part in the

to Rome to take part in the conclave? We should not read too

conclave? We should not read too conclave? We should not read too

conclave? We should not read too much into it. The very fact we are

much into it. The very fact we are much into it. The very fact we are

speculating about that means we are speculating about that means we are

speculating about that means we are reading something into it. We

reading something into it. We reading something into it. We

reading something into it. We should just let that be. This is a

should just let that be. This is a should just let that be. This is a

time of turmoil for the Catholic time of turmoil for the Catholic

time of turmoil for the Catholic Church. Clearly there are all the

Church. Clearly there are all the Church. Clearly there are all the

Church. Clearly there are all the stories of the Vatican, a new pope,

stories of the Vatican, a new pope, stories of the Vatican, a new pope,

stories of the Vatican, a new pope, now a new leader for the Catholic

now a new leader for the Catholic now a new leader for the Catholic

now a new leader for the Catholic Church in Scotland so I think the

Church in Scotland so I think the Church in Scotland so I think the

Catholic Church needs people to Catholic Church needs people to

Catholic Church needs people to Catholic Church needs people to

stand back and wait and see what stand back and wait and see what

stand back and wait and see what happens. A great deal will happen.

happens. A great deal will happen. happens. A great deal will happen.

Last week Cardinal O'Brien said he Last week Cardinal O'Brien said he

Last week Cardinal O'Brien said he Last week Cardinal O'Brien said he

was going to go to Rome and contest was going to go to Rome and contest

was going to go to Rome and contest the Church's adherence to the

the Church's adherence to the the Church's adherence to the

celibacy rule, which I thought was celibacy rule, which I thought was

celibacy rule, which I thought was amazing news that celibacy after

amazing news that celibacy after amazing news that celibacy after

1,000 years of being church 1,000 years of being church

1,000 years of being church doctrine was being called into

doctrine was being called into doctrine was being called into

question by a cardinal. Now very question by a cardinal. Now very

old allegations, these have old allegations, these have

old allegations, these have suddenly risen up and scuppered his

suddenly risen up and scuppered his opportunity of us questioning

opportunity of us questioning opportunity of us questioning

celibacy. I find this very celibacy. I find this very

celibacy. I find this very celibacy. I find this very

disturbing. I am not paranoid but I disturbing. I am not paranoid but I

disturbing. I am not paranoid but I am wondering. A follow-up question

am wondering. A follow-up question am wondering. A follow-up question

am wondering. A follow-up question am wondering. A follow-up question

from Bob Grant. De as the loss of a from Bob Grant. De as the loss of a

from Bob Grant. De as the loss of a from Bob Grant. De as the loss of a

Pope and a cardinal within a few Pope and a cardinal within a few

Pope and a cardinal within a few Pope and a cardinal within a few

days indicate the start of a new days indicate the start of a new

days indicate the start of a new beginning for the Catholic Church,

beginning for the Catholic Church, beginning for the Catholic Church,

beginning for the Catholic Church, or is it the beginning of its final

or is it the beginning of its final or is it the beginning of its final

demise? Professor John Haldane. You demise? Professor John Haldane. You

demise? Professor John Haldane. You demise? Professor John Haldane. You

are a people consult her. What do are a people consult her. What do

are a people consult her. What do are a people consult her. What do

you think? I do not think there is you think? I do not think there is

you think? I do not think there is any chance of the Roman Catholic

any chance of the Roman Catholic any chance of the Roman Catholic

Church are going into demise. There Church are going into demise. There

Church are going into demise. There Church are going into demise. There

was a historian who spoke of her was a historian who spoke of her

was a historian who spoke of her was a historian who spoke of her

when the last doors of St Paul's when the last doors of St Paul's

when the last doors of St Paul's had fallen, still the Catholic

had fallen, still the Catholic had fallen, still the Catholic

Church would be present. It has Church would be present. It has

Church would be present. It has Church would be present. It has

been around with us for 1,700 years. been around with us for 1,700 years.

been around with us for 1,700 years. One in six of the world's

One in six of the world's population are Roman Catholics.

population are Roman Catholics. population are Roman Catholics.

This is the oldest institution in This is the oldest institution in

This is the oldest institution in the western hemisphere, but it is

the western hemisphere, but it is undergoing transformation. The

undergoing transformation. The undergoing transformation. The

Vatican itself is a Renaissance Vatican itself is a Renaissance

Vatican itself is a Renaissance Vatican itself is a Renaissance

court. It is run on a basis that court. It is run on a basis that

court. It is run on a basis that court. It is run on a basis that

might have made sense in the 16th might have made sense in the 16th

might have made sense in the 16th might have made sense in the 16th

century but not in the 21st century century but not in the 21st century

century but not in the 21st century century but not in the 21st century

but one of the things a new pope but one of the things a new pope

but one of the things a new pope but one of the things a new pope

has to do is to reform the internal has to do is to reform the internal

has to do is to reform the internal organisation and structure of the

organisation and structure of the organisation and structure of the

organisation and structure of the church, and I think we will begin

church, and I think we will begin church, and I think we will begin

church, and I think we will begin church, and I think we will begin

to see that. If I could go back to to see that. If I could go back to

to see that. If I could go back to the earlier remark about celibacy,

the earlier remark about celibacy, the earlier remark about celibacy,

the earlier remark about celibacy, in fairness, what he has said was

in fairness, what he has said was in fairness, what he has said was

in fairness, what he has said was not he was going to Rome to

not he was going to Rome to not he was going to Rome to

challenge it, he expressed his view challenge it, he expressed his view

challenge it, he expressed his view on the question of celibacy. I

on the question of celibacy. I on the question of celibacy. I

on the question of celibacy. I myself did so in an article a

myself did so in an article a myself did so in an article a

couple of months ago, but Pope couple of months ago, but Pope

couple of months ago, but Pope Benedict himself had raised this

Benedict himself had raised this Benedict himself had raised this

question when he was Cardinal question when he was Cardinal

question when he was Cardinal question when he was Cardinal

Ratzinger. It is a matter that is Ratzinger. It is a matter that is

Ratzinger. It is a matter that is under discussion in the Church.

under discussion in the Church. under discussion in the Church.

under discussion in the Church. Where the cardinal Ed was in saying

Where the cardinal Ed was in saying Where the cardinal Ed was in saying

what might be considered or should what might be considered or should

what might be considered or should be open to consideration was the

be open to consideration was the be open to consideration was the

idea that clergy could marry. That idea that clergy could marry. That

idea that clergy could marry. That idea that clergy could marry. That

was never a part of the Western was never a part of the Western

Christian tradition or Eastern Christian tradition or Eastern

Christian tradition or Eastern Christian tradition. What I think

Christian tradition. What I think Christian tradition. What I think

Christian tradition. What I think is open to discussion is the idea

is open to discussion is the idea is open to discussion is the idea

that married men may be ordained that married men may be ordained

that married men may be ordained that married men may be ordained

into the ministry. I want to stick into the ministry. I want to stick

into the ministry. I want to stick into the ministry. I want to stick

with the point of the question just with the point of the question just

with the point of the question just asked about whether there is a

asked about whether there is a asked about whether there is a

asked about whether there is a crisis for the Church. I want to

crisis for the Church. I want to crisis for the Church. I want to

crisis for the Church. I want to hear from you if you are coming at

hear from you if you are coming at hear from you if you are coming at

this from a Catholic background. this from a Catholic background.

this from a Catholic background. Michael, what was the atmosphere

Michael, what was the atmosphere Michael, what was the atmosphere

like at mass way you'll were like at mass way you'll were

like at mass way you'll were like at mass way you'll were

yesterday? The same as it ever is. yesterday? The same as it ever is.

yesterday? The same as it ever is. We listened to an articulate

We listened to an articulate We listened to an articulate

exposition of the Gospel from the exposition of the Gospel from the

exposition of the Gospel from the local parish priest. He mentioned

local parish priest. He mentioned local parish priest. He mentioned

Cardinal Keith O'Brien in the Cardinal Keith O'Brien in the

statements around marriage to statements around marriage to

statements around marriage to explain any questions people might

explain any questions people might explain any questions people might

explain any questions people might have had, but they did not seem to

have had, but they did not seem to have had, but they did not seem to

have had, but they did not seem to be a great deal of turmoil among us

be a great deal of turmoil among us be a great deal of turmoil among us

the parishioners. Do you see best the parishioners. Do you see best

the parishioners. Do you see best as a dangerous moment for the

as a dangerous moment for the as a dangerous moment for the

church either in Scotland or around church either in Scotland or around

church either in Scotland or around church either in Scotland or around

the world? Not in any great sense. the world? Not in any great sense.

the world? Not in any great sense. the world? Not in any great sense.

I think there is a personal tragedy. I think there is a personal tragedy.

I think there is a personal tragedy. Victims have been identified all

Victims have been identified all Victims have been identified all

the cardinal himself is a victim, the cardinal himself is a victim,

the cardinal himself is a victim, the cardinal himself is a victim,

it remains to be seen what comes it remains to be seen what comes

it remains to be seen what comes it remains to be seen what comes

out of this, but in the grand out of this, but in the grand

out of this, but in the grand scheme of things, church people

scheme of things, church people scheme of things, church people

scheme of things, church people will go on. Many people, the case

will go on. Many people, the case will go on. Many people, the case

that you practise your faith that you practise your faith

that you practise your faith that you practise your faith

despite the high rocky. I do not despite the high rocky. I do not

despite the high rocky. I do not despite the high rocky. I do not

think it matters a great deal on think it matters a great deal on

any individual Catholic's life. any individual Catholic's life.

any individual Catholic's life. Three cardinal celebrated Mass in

Three cardinal celebrated Mass in Three cardinal celebrated Mass in

Three cardinal celebrated Mass in my church on Saturday and I spoke

my church on Saturday and I spoke my church on Saturday and I spoke

my church on Saturday and I spoke my church on Saturday and I spoke

with him at the end and he said to with him at the end and he said to

with him at the end and he said to with him at the end and he said to

me that I was to keep on carrying me that I was to keep on carrying

me that I was to keep on carrying me that I was to keep on carrying

the flag and I think now after what the flag and I think now after what

the flag and I think now after what has happened that that message it

has happened that that message it has happened that that message it

has happened that that message it has happened that that message it

means a lot, not just to me but to means a lot, not just to me but to

means a lot, not just to me but to means a lot, not just to me but to

all Catholics. It is time now for all Catholics. It is time now for

all Catholics. It is time now for just ordinary Catholics to stand up

just ordinary Catholics to stand up just ordinary Catholics to stand up

and carried on carrying the flag. and carried on carrying the flag.

and carried on carrying the flag. It is very important that we

It is very important that we It is very important that we

continue through this and get over continue through this and get over

continue through this and get over this sad moment. How damaging is

this sad moment. How damaging is this sad moment. How damaging is

this sad moment. How damaging is this? It is very sad, it has come

this? It is very sad, it has come this? It is very sad, it has come

this? It is very sad, it has come this? It is very sad, it has come

as quite a shock. It is a very sad as quite a shock. It is a very sad

as quite a shock. It is a very sad as quite a shock. It is a very sad

time but I do think we will get time but I do think we will get

time but I do think we will get through this. As Professor John

through this. As Professor John through this. As Professor John

Haldane said, we have survived for Haldane said, we have survived for

Haldane said, we have survived for Haldane said, we have survived for

the last 2000 years so the Catholic the last 2000 years so the Catholic

the last 2000 years so the Catholic church will still be here 2000

church will still be here 2000 church will still be here 2000

years from now. It will survive years from now. It will survive

years from now. It will survive this crisis. What is your

this crisis. What is your this crisis. What is your

perspective, Harry? In two is perspective, Harry? In two is

difficult to address these difficult to address these

difficult to address these questions here in Western Europe

questions here in Western Europe questions here in Western Europe

questions here in Western Europe because we are by far the most

because we are by far the most because we are by far the most

because we are by far the most secular part of the world. I am

secular part of the world. I am secular part of the world. I am

certain the natural condition of certain the natural condition of

certain the natural condition of humanity is to be religious,

humanity is to be religious, humanity is to be religious,

humanity is to be religious, certainly if you look at the world,

certainly if you look at the world, certainly if you look at the world,

most people are religious. This is most people are religious. This is

most people are religious. This is most people are religious. This is

a very secular society here so the a very secular society here so the

a very secular society here so the Catholic Church, like all the other

Catholic Church, like all the other Catholic Church, like all the other

churches in this particular society, churches in this particular society,

churches in this particular society, struggled. Does it matter now that

struggled. Does it matter now that struggled. Does it matter now that

there will be nobody from this there will be nobody from this

there will be nobody from this there will be nobody from this

country or the wider UK in the country or the wider UK in the

country or the wider UK in the country or the wider UK in the

conclave? In it does not matter at conclave? In it does not matter at

conclave? In it does not matter at conclave? In it does not matter at

all. I do not think in the greater all. I do not think in the greater

all. I do not think in the greater all. I do not think in the greater

scheme of things, I think in away scheme of things, I think in away

scheme of things, I think in away more importantly I wonder if Europe

more importantly I wonder if Europe more importantly I wonder if Europe

is all that significant. There are is all that significant. There are

is all that significant. There are so many Catholics in South the

so many Catholics in South the so many Catholics in South the

match, -- South America, Africa, match, -- South America, Africa,

match, -- South America, Africa, match, -- South America, Africa,

match, -- South America, Africa, Asia, it is high time we had a Pope

Asia, it is high time we had a Pope Asia, it is high time we had a Pope

who is not European. Padua, where who is not European. Padua, where

who is not European. Padua, where does this leave the Catholic

does this leave the Catholic does this leave the Catholic

does this leave the Catholic Church? As someone who is not a

Church? As someone who is not a Church? As someone who is not a

religious and someone who is quite religious and someone who is quite

religious and someone who is quite happy that we are becoming more

happy that we are becoming more happy that we are becoming more

secular and less religious, I am secular and less religious, I am

secular and less religious, I am comfortable with that going further,

comfortable with that going further, comfortable with that going further,

comfortable with that going further, it is probably odd for me to be

it is probably odd for me to be it is probably odd for me to be

commenting on that. It would be commenting on that. It would be

disappointing if the Catholic disappointing if the Catholic

disappointing if the Catholic Church is still a very substantial

Church is still a very substantial Church is still a very substantial

Church is still a very substantial entity in the world, did not take

entity in the world, did not take entity in the world, did not take

this opportunity to start looking. this opportunity to start looking.

this opportunity to start looking. this opportunity to start looking.

I was hearing about some of the I was hearing about some of the

I was hearing about some of the very radical things that the

very radical things that the very radical things that the

very radical things that the outgoing Pope wrote when he was a

outgoing Pope wrote when he was a outgoing Pope wrote when he was a

younger man, things I would have younger man, things I would have

younger man, things I would have younger man, things I would have

been unaware of when I was growing been unaware of when I was growing

been unaware of when I was growing been unaware of when I was growing

up that the Catholic church did not up that the Catholic church did not

up that the Catholic church did not represent those ideas, that kind of

represent those ideas, that kind of represent those ideas, that kind of

represent those ideas, that kind of radical agenda. We are in a world

radical agenda. We are in a world where many Catholics, including

where many Catholics, including where many Catholics, including

people very after it in the people very after it in the

people very after it in the Catholic Church, are motivated by

Catholic Church, are motivated by Catholic Church, are motivated by

poverty and global justice and poverty and global justice and

poverty and global justice and peace and humane treatment of

peace and humane treatment of peace and humane treatment of

asylum-seekers. Some of them Thea asylum-seekers. Some of them Thea

asylum-seekers. Some of them Thea and barrister at the idea that

and barrister at the idea that and barrister at the idea that

their church is being represented their church is being represented

their church is being represented with an agenda that is about

with an agenda that is about with an agenda that is about

finger-wagging. We are also going finger-wagging. We are also going

finger-wagging. We are also going through a period of huge economic

through a period of huge economic through a period of huge economic

through a period of huge economic crisis and entering a period of an

crisis and entering a period of an crisis and entering a period of an

ecological crisis where the moral ecological crisis where the moral

ecological crisis where the moral arguments about the kind of changes

arguments about the kind of changes arguments about the kind of changes

arguments about the kind of changes that our society have to go through

that our society have to go through that our society have to go through

that our society have to go through will be important, and if a church

will be important, and if a church will be important, and if a church

is not interested in that Dynamic is not interested in that Dynamic

agenda of transformational change, agenda of transformational change,

agenda of transformational change, The church, and not just the Church

The church, and not just the Church The church, and not just the Church

brick walls faiths are about brick walls faiths are about

brick walls faiths are about transformation and coming to a new

transformation and coming to a new transformation and coming to a new

transformation and coming to a new way of being and in the search it

way of being and in the search it way of being and in the search it

is really important that week is really important that week

is really important that week reform and in the Church of

reform and in the Church of reform and in the Church of

reform and in the Church of Scotland we are a church that is

Scotland we are a church that is Scotland we are a church that is

Scotland we are a church that is reformed and at the reforming so it

reformed and at the reforming so it reformed and at the reforming so it

reformed and at the reforming so it is about going back to what is the

is about going back to what is the is about going back to what is the

core business, what is really core business, what is really

core business, what is really important and not? What is

important and not? What is important and not? What is

important is finding ways to love important is finding ways to love

important is finding ways to love your neighbour, to forgive each

your neighbour, to forgive each your neighbour, to forgive each

other, instead of defending your other, instead of defending your

other, instead of defending your corner to find common ground,

corner to find common ground, corner to find common ground,

corner to find common ground, because when we get so focused on

because when we get so focused on because when we get so focused on

because when we get so focused on defending our own answer, we do not

defending our own answer, we do not defending our own answer, we do not

defending our own answer, we do not listen to each other and if we do

listen to each other and if we do listen to each other and if we do

listen to each other and if we do not listen to each other, how do we

not listen to each other, how do we not listen to each other, how do we

begin that loving each other which begin that loving each other which

begin that loving each other which begin that loving each other which

goes to the core of the gospel? goes to the core of the gospel?

goes to the core of the gospel? knew saying this is something that

knew saying this is something that knew saying this is something that

knew saying this is something that the individual has to do all the

the individual has to do all the the individual has to do all the

whole churches? Both. Religion is whole churches? Both. Religion is

whole churches? Both. Religion is often personal but never private.

often personal but never private. often personal but never private.

Another question. It comes from Another question. It comes from

Another question. It comes from LEAs laden, editor of the Scottish

LEAs laden, editor of the Scottish LEAs laden, editor of the Scottish

Catholic Observer. -- Liz Leydon. Catholic Observer. -- Liz Leydon.

Catholic Observer. -- Liz Leydon. am interested in the panellists'

am interested in the panellists' am interested in the panellists'

am interested in the panellists' views on a pretty low angle. We are

views on a pretty low angle. We are views on a pretty low angle. We are

here to discuss the role of here to discuss the role of

here to discuss the role of religion in modern Scotland and as

religion in modern Scotland and as religion in modern Scotland and as

someone who believes that religion someone who believes that religion

someone who believes that religion exists here, their Mark Christian

exists here, their Mark Christian exists here, their Mark Christian

roots, there are other faiths, a roots, there are other faiths, a

roots, there are other faiths, a great inter-faith movement, I would

great inter-faith movement, I would great inter-faith movement, I would

great inter-faith movement, I would like to say I believe we should be

like to say I believe we should be like to say I believe we should be

discussing what is the role of discussing what is the role of

discussing what is the role of religion in modern Scotland, not if

religion in modern Scotland, not if religion in modern Scotland, not if

religion in modern Scotland, not if it has a role. I wondered what the

it has a role. I wondered what the it has a role. I wondered what the

panellists' views are Hombach. panellists' views are Hombach.

panellists' views are Hombach. panellists' views are Hombach.

well as our panel here we have well as our panel here we have

well as our panel here we have representatives from many of the

representatives from many of the representatives from many of the

fakes in Scotland. Perhaps we will fakes in Scotland. Perhaps we will

fakes in Scotland. Perhaps we will fakes in Scotland. Perhaps we will

go to those from some of the other go to those from some of the other

go to those from some of the other faiths represented here tonight. We

faiths represented here tonight. We faiths represented here tonight. We

faiths represented here tonight. We have a Buddhist nun who is with us

have a Buddhist nun who is with us have a Buddhist nun who is with us

have a Buddhist nun who is with us on the front row. What is your

on the front row. What is your on the front row. What is your

view? Scotland, although it is view? Scotland, although it is

view? Scotland, although it is becoming more secular, it is also

becoming more secular, it is also becoming more secular, it is also

much more diverse, so religion is much more diverse, so religion is

much more diverse, so religion is like -- religions like Buddhism, a

like -- religions like Buddhism, a like -- religions like Buddhism, a

minority, is still allowed to be minority, is still allowed to be

minority, is still allowed to be here and is flourishing. Possibly

here and is flourishing. Possibly here and is flourishing. Possibly

here and is flourishing. Possibly because one of the main priests --

because one of the main priests -- because one of the main priests --

because one of the main priests -- tenets of prison is to work on

tenets of prison is to work on tenets of prison is to work on

oneself, and to be less judgmental oneself, and to be less judgmental

oneself, and to be less judgmental of others, and if everybody did

of others, and if everybody did of others, and if everybody did

that, maybe that would bring a that, maybe that would bring a

that, maybe that would bring a better world. The teachings of the

better world. The teachings of the better world. The teachings of the

better world. The teachings of the border can be... I think there is

border can be... I think there is border can be... I think there is

relevance here, they are as relevance here, they are as

relevance here, they are as relevance here, they are as

relevant here as in India 200 -- relevant here as in India 200 --

relevant here as in India 200 -- 2000 years ago. People are very

2000 years ago. People are very 2000 years ago. People are very

2000 years ago. People are very much the same in terms of BET

much the same in terms of BET much the same in terms of BET

Psyche. Their culture and society Psyche. Their culture and society

Psyche. Their culture and society might be different but minds are

might be different but minds are might be different but minds are

might be different but minds are the same. That is what we need to

the same. That is what we need to the same. That is what we need to

the same. That is what we need to work on. So whether we are talking

work on. So whether we are talking about powerful church people,

about powerful church people, powerful politicians, whoever it

powerful politicians, whoever it powerful politicians, whoever it

powerful politicians, whoever it may be, we need to look after

may be, we need to look after may be, we need to look after

ourselves and control our minds. ourselves and control our minds.

ourselves and control our minds. ourselves and control our minds.

ourselves and control our minds. And next to you... I am from the EC

And next to you... I am from the EC And next to you... I am from the EC

Council of Scotland and the Glasgow Council of Scotland and the Glasgow

Council of Scotland and the Glasgow gurdwara. -- Sikh council. From a

gurdwara. -- Sikh council. From a Sikh perspective, we absolutely

Sikh perspective, we absolutely Sikh perspective, we absolutely

believe in the personal element of believe in the personal element of

believe in the personal element of believe in the personal element of

faith but we also have a strong faith but we also have a strong

faith but we also have a strong faith but we also have a strong

element of being public. I wear a element of being public. I wear a

element of being public. I wear a element of being public. I wear a

turban on my head and back is a turban on my head and back is a

turban on my head and back is a public statement about my values

public statement about my values public statement about my values

public statement about my values and the values of my community of

and the values of my community of and the values of my community of

justice and humanity. So we justice and humanity. So we

justice and humanity. So we absolutely believe we have a role

absolutely believe we have a role absolutely believe we have a role

absolutely believe we have a role in the public. The gurdwara is a

in the public. The gurdwara is a in the public. The gurdwara is a

in the public. The gurdwara is a important example of this. We ran a

important example of this. We ran a important example of this. We ran a

important example of this. We ran a free kitchen every day of the week.

free kitchen every day of the week. free kitchen every day of the week.

free kitchen every day of the week. When we are facing one of the worst

When we are facing one of the worst When we are facing one of the worst

recessions that the world has ever recessions that the world has ever

recessions that the world has ever seen and we have fake institutions

seen and we have fake institutions seen and we have fake institutions

providing real daily needs for providing real daily needs for

providing real daily needs for families within the South Side of

families within the South Side of families within the South Side of

Glasgow, basic needs such as food, Glasgow, basic needs such as food,

Glasgow, basic needs such as food, Glasgow, basic needs such as food,

then a public role for faith is then a public role for faith is

then a public role for faith is very, very important. And a

very, very important. And a representative from the humanist

representative from the humanist representative from the humanist

representative from the humanist Society. Is that you? No, I am here

Society. Is that you? No, I am here Society. Is that you? No, I am here

Society. Is that you? No, I am here as the average man in the street.

as the average man in the street. as the average man in the street.

as the average man in the street. We had year earlier. I am the vice-

We had year earlier. I am the vice- We had year earlier. I am the vice-

chair of humanist Society and I chair of humanist Society and I

chair of humanist Society and I chair of humanist Society and I

think the key here that we are all think the key here that we are all

think the key here that we are all talking about is a secular society,

talking about is a secular society, talking about is a secular society,

talking about is a secular society, where the state takes note... It is

where the state takes note... It is where the state takes note... It is

where the state takes note... It is neutral when it comes to matters of

neutral when it comes to matters of neutral when it comes to matters of

police. That way everybody can have police. That way everybody can have

police. That way everybody can have police. That way everybody can have

police. That way everybody can have a say in an equal weight. I do not

a say in an equal weight. I do not think any religious organisation

think any religious organisation think any religious organisation

think any religious organisation should expect to have a beer at the

should expect to have a beer at the should expect to have a beer at the

pass into the corridors of power pass into the corridors of power

pass into the corridors of power pass into the corridors of power

and as long as we do not have and as long as we do not have

and as long as we do not have backed non-believers are happy. --

backed non-believers are happy. -- backed non-believers are happy. --

backed non-believers are happy. -- should expect to have a VIP pass.

should expect to have a VIP pass. should expect to have a VIP pass.

should expect to have a VIP pass. should expect to have a VIP pass.

Do you think that is how it is at Do you think that is how it is at

Do you think that is how it is at Do you think that is how it is at

the moment, that they expect a free the moment, that they expect a free

the moment, that they expect a free the moment, that they expect a free

pass? Yes. If you ask about the pass? Yes. If you ask about the

pass? Yes. If you ask about the place of religion in society and

place of religion in society and Scottish Society, the social

Scottish Society, the social Scottish Society, the social

service aspects of religion, while service aspects of religion, while

service aspects of religion, while there are important, they do not

there are important, they do not represent religion has say.

represent religion has say. represent religion has say.

Humanists can be involved in Humanists can be involved in

Humanists can be involved in providing comfort and indeed are so.

providing comfort and indeed are so. providing comfort and indeed are so.

What is distinctive about religion, What is distinctive about religion,

What is distinctive about religion, you quoted in the English you

you quoted in the English you you quoted in the English you

quoted the, ever to be reformed quoted the, ever to be reformed

quoted the, ever to be reformed slogan. But as you sit quite

slogan. But as you sit quite slogan. But as you sit quite

rightly... This is an injunction rightly... This is an injunction

directed within every individual, directed within every individual,

directed within every individual, directed within every individual,

as it were, to examine oneself, but as it were, to examine oneself, but

as it were, to examine oneself, but then the question is, reform

then the question is, reform then the question is, reform

then the question is, reform oneself in the light of what? And

oneself in the light of what? And oneself in the light of what? And

oneself in the light of what? And presumably in the light of what one

presumably in the light of what one presumably in the light of what one

presumably in the light of what one takes to be true and this is where

takes to be true and this is where takes to be true and this is where

religion goes back to offering one religion goes back to offering one

religion goes back to offering one account of what fundamental truths

account of what fundamental truths account of what fundamental truths

are. Buddhism has a very particular are. Buddhism has a very particular

are. Buddhism has a very particular are. Buddhism has a very particular

take, and so particular is it that take, and so particular is it that

take, and so particular is it that take, and so particular is it that

there is even a question as to there is even a question as to

there is even a question as to there is even a question as to

whether it is a religion or a whether it is a religion or a

philosophy. Judaism, for example, philosophy. Judaism, for example,

philosophy. Judaism, for example, philosophy. Judaism, for example,

is very different. It has its roots is very different. It has its roots

is very different. It has its roots is very different. It has its roots

in a belief in a covenant between a in a belief in a covenant between a

in a belief in a covenant between a particular day tea and set of

particular day tea and set of particular day tea and set of

people. That is quite different to people. That is quite different to

what Christianity might have... what Christianity might have...

what Christianity might have... what Christianity might have...

What do you say to the charges made What do you say to the charges made

What do you say to the charges made by the secular society that somehow

by the secular society that somehow by the secular society that somehow

there is a privileged position in there is a privileged position in

there is a privileged position in its -- in policy-making terms.

its -- in policy-making terms. its -- in policy-making terms.

its -- in policy-making terms. take it, the point you were making,

take it, the point you were making, concerning something like the

concerning something like the concerning something like the

separation of church and state, separation of church and state,

separation of church and state, keeping apart these two forces.

keeping apart these two forces. keeping apart these two forces.

keeping apart these two forces. Trying to extend the idea are the

Trying to extend the idea are the Trying to extend the idea are the

Trying to extend the idea are the political as a neutral sphere. I do

political as a neutral sphere. I do political as a neutral sphere. I do

political as a neutral sphere. I do not object to that in the slightest.

not object to that in the slightest. not object to that in the slightest.

not object to that in the slightest. The church that I am a member of,

The church that I am a member of, The church that I am a member of,

the Roman Catholic Church, is not the Roman Catholic Church, is not

the Roman Catholic Church, is not an established church so it does

an established church so it does an established church so it does

an established church so it does an established church so it does

not have a beer at the past. -- 8 not have a beer at the past. -- 8

not have a beer at the past. -- 8 not have a beer at the past. -- 8

VIP pass. You are a legislator. Do VIP pass. You are a legislator. Do

VIP pass. You are a legislator. Do you get heavily lobbied?

you get heavily lobbied? you get heavily lobbied?

heavily lobbied but there is a heavily lobbied but there is a

heavily lobbied but there is a heavily lobbied but there is a

strong engage and and did is not strong engage and and did is not

strong engage and and did is not sit easy to establish in relation

sit easy to establish in relation sit easy to establish in relation

sit easy to establish in relation to who represents the people who do

to who represents the people who do to who represents the people who do

to who represents the people who do not have a religious belief, or do

not have a religious belief, or do not have a religious belief, or do

not subscribe to a particular not subscribe to a particular

not subscribe to a particular church? There is a difference

church? There is a difference church? There is a difference

between religion and the church. between religion and the church.

between religion and the church. between religion and the church.

It's the question is what is the It's the question is what is the

It's the question is what is the It's the question is what is the

place of religion, in a way, nobody place of religion, in a way, nobody

place of religion, in a way, nobody place of religion, in a way, nobody

needs to pin back down and define needs to pin back down and define

needs to pin back down and define needs to pin back down and define

it because it is what it is an it because it is what it is an

it because it is what it is an people will either choose to

people will either choose to people will either choose to

people will either choose to subscribe or not. But what is the

subscribe or not. But what is the subscribe or not. But what is the

price of churches and religious price of churches and religious

price of churches and religious organisations? I think that is

organisations? I think that is organisations? I think that is

different and that does require a different and that does require a

different and that does require a degree of secularism and there is

degree of secularism and there is degree of secularism and there is

degree of secularism and there is very little voice for those who do

very little voice for those who do very little voice for those who do

very little voice for those who do not believe in that mix. I'm very

not believe in that mix. I'm very not believe in that mix. I'm very

glad that AC grayling, the atheist glad that AC grayling, the atheist

glad that AC grayling, the atheist philosopher, is going to be

philosopher, is going to be addressing the Scottish Parliament

addressing the Scottish Parliament addressing the Scottish Parliament

addressing the Scottish Parliament in the next couple of moments, in

in the next couple of moments, in in the next couple of moments, in

the time for reflection slot, which the time for reflection slot, which

the time for reflection slot, which the time for reflection slot, which

nine times out of ten is bringing a nine times out of ten is bringing a

nine times out of ten is bringing a religious perspective and that is

religious perspective and that is disproportionate. Backed the person

disproportionate. Backed the person disproportionate. Backed the person

next to the question. -- perhaps. next to the question. -- perhaps.

next to the question. -- perhaps. next to the question. -- perhaps.

We are hearing quite a lot about We are hearing quite a lot about

We are hearing quite a lot about how it inter-faith dialogue is the

how it inter-faith dialogue is the how it inter-faith dialogue is the

how it inter-faith dialogue is the most radical it can be, it is all

most radical it can be, it is all most radical it can be, it is all

about how many religions we include about how many religions we include

about how many religions we include about how many religions we include

in the public's fear and that gives in the public's fear and that gives

in the public's fear and that gives in the public's fear and that gives

no respect to the large group of no respect to the large group of

no respect to the large group of people for whom religion of any

people for whom religion of any people for whom religion of any

people for whom religion of any sort is not interesting. I am the

sort is not interesting. I am the sort is not interesting. I am the

media officer for the Edinburgh media officer for the Edinburgh

media officer for the Edinburgh second of society. I am interested

second of society. I am interested second of society. I am interested

second of society. I am interested in the idea that the most radical

in the idea that the most radical in the idea that the most radical

in the idea that the most radical we can be used to have lots of

we can be used to have lots of we can be used to have lots of

religions in the public sphere, religions in the public sphere,

religions in the public sphere, religions in the public sphere,

whereas most people do not want any whereas most people do not want any

whereas most people do not want any whereas most people do not want any

at all. Most people? Are you sure? at all. Most people? Are you sure?

at all. Most people? Are you sure? at all. Most people? Are you sure?

Many people do not want any at all. Many people do not want any at all.

Many people do not want any at all. I disagree. The people who choose

I disagree. The people who choose I disagree. The people who choose

not to believe in any particular not to believe in any particular

not to believe in any particular not to believe in any particular

BAA or approach God in that way BAA or approach God in that way

BAA or approach God in that way BAA or approach God in that way

really are the ones that are having really are the ones that are having

really are the ones that are having their voice heard in a

their voice heard in a disproportionate approach at the

moment. moment.

moment. moment.

APPLAUSE. Can you give an example? APPLAUSE. Can you give an example?

APPLAUSE. Can you give an example? The reactions of people of faith

The reactions of people of faith The reactions of people of faith

here makes that example. The people here makes that example. The people

here makes that example. The people who have been strident, there have

who have been strident, there have who have been strident, there have

been slogans on buses saying, God been slogans on buses saying, God

been slogans on buses saying, God been slogans on buses saying, God

does not exist, that is a strident does not exist, that is a strident

does not exist, that is a strident does not exist, that is a strident

voice in the media and not in all voice in the media and not in all

voice in the media and not in all voice in the media and not in all

parts of the media but there are a parts of the media but there are a

parts of the media but there are a parts of the media but there are a

lot of parts where that is the lot of parts where that is the

lot of parts where that is the dominant voice and when you come

dominant voice and when you come dominant voice and when you come

dominant voice and when you come with the voice of faith, it is

with the voice of faith, it is with the voice of faith, it is

treated with disdain. Thank you for treated with disdain. Thank you for

treated with disdain. Thank you for that. Accra. The gentleman here.

that. Accra. The gentleman here. that. Accra. The gentleman here.

The statistics of religiosity in The statistics of religiosity in

The statistics of religiosity in Scotland up to 2009 was stating

Scotland up to 2009 was stating Scotland up to 2009 was stating

Scotland up to 2009 was stating that 40% of Scots were a religious,

that 40% of Scots were a religious, that 40% of Scots were a religious,

non-religious. And in fact, 44 % non-religious. And in fact, 44 %

non-religious. And in fact, 44 % male and 37 % female... What

male and 37 % female... What male and 37 % female... What

conclusion did or from those conclusion did or from those

conclusion did or from those numbers? When you look back during

numbers? When you look back during numbers? When you look back during

the past ten years and extrapolate the past ten years and extrapolate

the past ten years and extrapolate the past ten years and extrapolate

it, you would see that by 2015, the it, you would see that by 2015, the

it, you would see that by 2015, the majority, more than 50% of Scots

majority, more than 50% of Scots majority, more than 50% of Scots

will be non-religious. It will be will be non-religious. It will be

will be non-religious. It will be will be non-religious. It will be

most in a couple of years' time. most in a couple of years' time.

most in a couple of years' time. where do you think religion stands

where do you think religion stands where do you think religion stands

in modern society? I think the in modern society? I think the

in modern society? I think the religion is something personal and

religion is something personal and religion is something personal and

religion is something personal and there are a variety of religions. I

there are a variety of religions. I there are a variety of religions. I

there are a variety of religions. I was Muslim. There are a variety of

was Muslim. There are a variety of different religions. They have

different religions. They have different religions. They have

different rules and many of them different rules and many of them

different rules and many of them contradict the Human Rights rules

contradict the Human Rights rules contradict the Human Rights rules

contradict the Human Rights rules and we must make sure that the

and we must make sure that the Government, executive and judicial

Government, executive and judicial Government, executive and judicial

powers are all neutral and they powers are all neutral and they

powers are all neutral and they treat all citizens equally. Their

treat all citizens equally. Their privileges for any religion.

privileges for any religion. privileges for any religion.

privileges for any religion. APPLAUSE. -- no privileges. I feel

APPLAUSE. -- no privileges. I feel APPLAUSE. -- no privileges. I feel

APPLAUSE. -- no privileges. I feel that the opposite is true in terms

that the opposite is true in terms that the opposite is true in terms

of especially the politics of of especially the politics of

religion. If anything, politicians religion. If anything, politicians

religion. If anything, politicians like to avoid religion. I realise

like to avoid religion. I realise like to avoid religion. I realise

like to avoid religion. I realise that is because they want to stay

that is because they want to stay that is because they want to stay

that is because they want to stay popular but somehow I feel, I look

popular but somehow I feel, I look popular but somehow I feel, I look

to people are of all religions to people are of all religions

to people are of all religions because they have a certain courage

because they have a certain courage because they have a certain courage

because they have a certain courage to stand up for a belief that will

to stand up for a belief that will to stand up for a belief that will

to stand up for a belief that will not change, no matter how -- who

not change, no matter how -- who not change, no matter how -- who

not change, no matter how -- who they are trying to please. So for a

they are trying to please. So for a they are trying to please. So for a

they are trying to please. So for a politician to say that they do not

politician to say that they do not politician to say that they do not

feel they have a force is feel they have a force is

feel they have a force is ridiculous when our forces are

ridiculous when our forces are ridiculous when our forces are

ridiculous when our forces are ignored. I promised to come back to

ignored. I promised to come back to ignored. I promised to come back to

the questioner. Thank you. I think the questioner. Thank you. I think

the questioner. Thank you. I think the panel and the audience have

the panel and the audience have the panel and the audience have

the panel and the audience have made a point about religion being a

made a point about religion being a made a point about religion being a

drive to reform. Every Reformation drive to reform. Every Reformation

drive to reform. Every Reformation today has replaced something with

today has replaced something with today has replaced something with

something deemed to be better. I something deemed to be better. I

something deemed to be better. I something deemed to be better. I

would like to ask people who have a would like to ask people who have a

would like to ask people who have a secular belief in this audience

secular belief in this audience secular belief in this audience

secular belief in this audience what are you bringing in to replace

what are you bringing in to replace what are you bringing in to replace

what are you bringing in to replace religion? I am going to let that

religion? I am going to let that religion? I am going to let that

religion? I am going to let that hang there because I want to bring

hang there because I want to bring Politicians are not very good at

Politicians are not very good at Politicians are not very good at

getting active members of their getting active members of their

getting active members of their getting active members of their

parties all people out to vote. The parties all people out to vote. The

parties all people out to vote. The Church of Scotland has a half-a-

Church of Scotland has a half-a- Church of Scotland has a half-a-

million members in a small country million members in a small country

million members in a small country million members in a small country

and I would say at least 50,000 of and I would say at least 50,000 of

and I would say at least 50,000 of these people are really seriously

these people are really seriously these people are really seriously

these people are really seriously active members. I think we can over

active members. I think we can over active members. I think we can over

active members. I think we can over do just how secular weir are. I

do just how secular weir are. I do just how secular weir are. I

take the point that politics is take the point that politics is

take the point that politics is politics, religion is religion but

politics, religion is religion but politics, religion is religion but

religious people tend to be much religious people tend to be much

religious people tend to be much better at getting involved. Sally?

better at getting involved. Sally? better at getting involved. Sally?

It is important that we unpacked It is important that we unpacked

It is important that we unpacked It is important that we unpacked

what we mean by secular. I have no what we mean by secular. I have no

what we mean by secular. I have no problem with a secular society

problem with a secular society problem with a secular society

problem with a secular society which gives space for every one of

which gives space for every one of which gives space for every one of

different beliefs and no belief to different beliefs and no belief to

different beliefs and no belief to bring what they feel is important

bring what they feel is important bring what they feel is important

bring what they feel is important to the table. If there is a VIP

to the table. If there is a VIP to the table. If there is a VIP

to the table. If there is a VIP pass, I was not issued with one.

pass, I was not issued with one. pass, I was not issued with one.

pass, I was not issued with one. That is not my understanding of how

That is not my understanding of how That is not my understanding of how

things work. It is important that things work. It is important that

things work. It is important that all members of a modern Scottish

all members of a modern Scottish all members of a modern Scottish

all members of a modern Scottish Society have space to say, this is

Society have space to say, this is Society have space to say, this is

what I believe is important because what I believe is important because

what I believe is important because what I believe is important because

it impacts on my neighbour and I do it impacts on my neighbour and I do

it impacts on my neighbour and I do it impacts on my neighbour and I do

it impacts on my neighbour and I do not think it has to be an either or.

not think it has to be an either or. not think it has to be an either or.

not think it has to be an either or. We have a lot to teach each other

We have a lot to teach each other We have a lot to teach each other

We have a lot to teach each other if we will listen to each other and

if we will listen to each other and if we will listen to each other and

if we will listen to each other and I think there is a big difference

I think there is a big difference I think there is a big difference

between a secular society and a between a secular society and a

between a secular society and a secularist society which says there

secularist society which says there secularist society which says there

is no room for religion. APPLAUSE. is no room for religion. APPLAUSE.

is no room for religion. APPLAUSE. Talking of teaching. Dr Alasdair

Talking of teaching. Dr Alasdair Talking of teaching. Dr Alasdair

Noble is an education consultant. Noble is an education consultant.

Noble is an education consultant. Noble is an education consultant.

My question is this - since the My question is this - since the

My question is this - since the European Convention of Human Rights

European Convention of Human Rights European Convention of Human Rights

European Convention of Human Rights gives parents a right to have their

gives parents a right to have their children educated in conformity

children educated in conformity children educated in conformity

with a philosophical and religious with a philosophical and religious

with a philosophical and religious beliefs, should the government of

beliefs, should the government of beliefs, should the government of

modern Scotland not be encouraging modern Scotland not be encouraging

modern Scotland not be encouraging greater diversity of schools so

greater diversity of schools so greater diversity of schools so

that parents have a real choice that parents have a real choice

that parents have a real choice that parents have a real choice

about the ethos in which they want about the ethos in which they want

about the ethos in which they want to have their young people

to have their young people to have their young people

educated? Sally? That is very educated? Sally? That is very

interesting. From the perspective interesting. From the perspective

interesting. From the perspective interesting. From the perspective

of the Church of Scotland, we are of the Church of Scotland, we are

of the Church of Scotland, we are very supportive of the non

very supportive of the non denominational schools, there has

denominational schools, there has denominational schools, there has

been no appetite, since 1872 re- been no appetite, since 1872 re-

been no appetite, since 1872 re- released control of every school in

released control of every school in released control of every school in

every parish and we have been every parish and we have been

supportive of non-denominational supportive of non-denominational

supportive of non-denominational schools, however, we respect the

schools, however, we respect the schools, however, we respect the

right of other religions who choose right of other religions who choose

right of other religions who choose to have their children brought up

to have their children brought up to have their children brought up

to have their children brought up in a school that is their tradition.

in a school that is their tradition. in a school that is their tradition.

I would like to say something I would like to say something

I would like to say something encounter. There is nothing more

encounter. There is nothing more powerful and more transformative

powerful and more transformative powerful and more transformative

than knowing each other. That is than knowing each other. That is

than knowing each other. That is the strength of our were

the strength of our were philosophical and moral education.

philosophical and moral education. philosophical and moral education.

philosophical and moral education. It begins to on packed to who we

It begins to on packed to who we It begins to on packed to who we

It begins to on packed to who we are together and we begin to make

are together and we begin to make are together and we begin to make

connections. There are limits to connections. There are limits to

connections. There are limits to the extent that operates within

the extent that operates within the extent that operates within

the extent that operates within schools but do you agree with the

schools but do you agree with the proposition that the government

proposition that the government proposition that the government

should do more to encourage schools, should do more to encourage schools,

should do more to encourage schools, faith based schools, a greater

faith based schools, a greater diversity in the educational

diversity in the educational establishment? A government should

establishment? A government should establishment? A government should

establishment? A government should focus on what is best on the people.

focus on what is best on the people. focus on what is best on the people.

That impacts on itself in different That impacts on itself in different

That impacts on itself in different ways. A Harry Reid? I would

ways. A Harry Reid? I would ways. A Harry Reid? I would

disagree with Sally. The Church of disagree with Sally. The Church of

disagree with Sally. The Church of Scotland should be trying hard to

Scotland should be trying hard to Scotland should be trying hard to

Scotland should be trying hard to promote a faith school. I do not

promote a faith school. I do not promote a faith school. I do not

promote a faith school. I do not see why he should not. They should

see why he should not. They should see why he should not. They should

also, you can have completely also, you can have completely

also, you can have completely secular schools, are we are a

secular schools, are we are a secular schools, are we are a

secular schools, are we are a diverse society and I do not see

diverse society and I do not see diverse society and I do not see

any reason why the only schools any reason why the only schools

any reason why the only schools any reason why the only schools

that really seemed to be in our that really seemed to be in our

that really seemed to be in our society which are clearly religious

society which are clearly religious society which are clearly religious

are the Catholic schools. I think are the Catholic schools. I think

are the Catholic schools. I think are the Catholic schools. I think

the Catholic schools do a very good the Catholic schools do a very good

the Catholic schools do a very good job, but I simply cannot understand

job, but I simply cannot understand job, but I simply cannot understand

job, but I simply cannot understand why the Church of Scotland is so

why the Church of Scotland is so why the Church of Scotland is so

why the Church of Scotland is so reluctant to have its schools. I am

reluctant to have its schools. I am reluctant to have its schools. I am

sure many Church of Scotland sure many Church of Scotland

sure many Church of Scotland parents would love to have Church

parents would love to have Church parents would love to have Church

of Scotland schools. We have looked of Scotland schools. We have looked

of Scotland schools. We have looked on this on several occasions, there

on this on several occasions, there on this on several occasions, there

on this on several occasions, there is no appetite for that. The school

is no appetite for that. The school is no appetite for that. The school

system is well rounded in Scotland. system is well rounded in Scotland.

system is well rounded in Scotland. It gives an opportunity for

It gives an opportunity for religious observance, so narrow

religious observance, so narrow religious observance, so narrow

religious observance, so narrow that it is not something the Church

that it is not something the Church that it is not something the Church

of Scotland has seen an appetite of Scotland has seen an appetite

of Scotland has seen an appetite for. The non denominational schools

for. The non denominational schools for. The non denominational schools

that of public schools do a that of public schools do a

that of public schools do a wonderful job and they offer an

wonderful job and they offer an wonderful job and they offer an

opportunity for our children to opportunity for our children to

opportunity for our children to encounter and explore and meet with

encounter and explore and meet with encounter and explore and meet with

encounter and explore and meet with other people. That is a very strong

other people. That is a very strong other people. That is a very strong

other people. That is a very strong point. In Scotland so far and tell

point. In Scotland so far and tell point. In Scotland so far and tell

last year I think, the curriculum last year I think, the curriculum

of non-denominational schools was of non-denominational schools was

of non-denominational schools was covering all kinds of religions.

covering all kinds of religions. covering all kinds of religions.

Unfortunately when we had the new Unfortunately when we had the new

curriculum for excellence the curriculum for excellence the

denominational schools, Catholic denominational schools, Catholic

denominational schools, Catholic schools have a curriculum which

schools have a curriculum which schools have a curriculum which

still teaches all religions where still teaches all religions where

non-denominational schools have a non-denominational schools have a

non-denominational schools have a non-denominational schools have a

curriculum that can focus on a few curriculum that can focus on a few

curriculum that can focus on a few religions only. You do not think

religions only. You do not think the non-denominational schools are

the non-denominational schools are the non-denominational schools are

the non-denominational schools are doing a great job? They were. The

doing a great job? They were. The doing a great job? They were. The

new curriculum is limiting them to new curriculum is limiting them to

new curriculum is limiting them to new curriculum is limiting them to

two religions only. A lady at the two religions only. A lady at the

two religions only. A lady at the back. My concern about the Scottish

back. My concern about the Scottish education system, particularly with

education system, particularly with education system, particularly with

education system, particularly with education system, particularly with

R M E, is that the policy is wishy- R M E, is that the policy is wishy-

R M E, is that the policy is wishy- washy. You get some schools that

washy. You get some schools that washy. You get some schools that

washy. You get some schools that only teach one point of view and

only teach one point of view and only teach one point of view and

then schools in inner-city areas then schools in inner-city areas

then schools in inner-city areas which could teach across the

which could teach across the which could teach across the

spectrum, so do get very different spectrum, so do get very different

spectrum, so do get very different education are being had by the

education are being had by the education are being had by the

children in different areas. What children in different areas. What

children in different areas. What children in different areas. What

would you like? I would like a would you like? I would like a

standardised curriculum across the standardised curriculum across the

standardised curriculum across the board so that the children are

board so that the children are board so that the children are

educated in all of the religions educated in all of the religions

educated in all of the religions educated in all of the religions

but are out there but not told that but are out there but not told that

but are out there but not told that any of them are particularly true,

any of them are particularly true, any of them are particularly true,

any of them are particularly true, but I would like to look at

but I would like to look at but I would like to look at

morality and the issues around that morality and the issues around that

morality and the issues around that morality and the issues around that

from a non religious point of view, from a non religious point of view,

looking at free-thinkers and looking at free-thinkers and

looking at free-thinkers and secularists, people who have made

secularists, people who have made secularists, people who have made

real difference to society. real difference to society.

real difference to society. real difference to society.

trained for a time as a Catholic RE trained for a time as a Catholic RE

trained for a time as a Catholic RE trained for a time as a Catholic RE

teacher and one thing that is often teacher and one thing that is often

teacher and one thing that is often forgotten is that the legislation

forgotten is that the legislation that allows for denominational

that allows for denominational that allows for denominational

schools is still on the books. schools is still on the books.

schools is still on the books. There are state schools in Scotland,

There are state schools in Scotland, There are state schools in Scotland,

There are state schools in Scotland, there is a Jewish prima school and

there is a Jewish prima school and there is a Jewish prima school and

an Episcopalian school, there is an Episcopalian school, there is

an Episcopalian school, there is nothing to stop any faith group

nothing to stop any faith group nothing to stop any faith group

bringing forth a proposition to bringing forth a proposition to

bringing forth a proposition to bringing forth a proposition to

have their own school as well. The have their own school as well. The

have their own school as well. The difficulty which has been faced in

difficulty which has been faced in difficulty which has been faced in

difficulty which has been faced in the past is not a question of money

the past is not a question of money the past is not a question of money

but of staffing. For example, if but of staffing. For example, if

but of staffing. For example, if you have a minority religious

you have a minority religious you have a minority religious

position, people have on several position, people have on several

position, people have on several occasions tried to stop schools of

occasions tried to stop schools of occasions tried to stop schools of

that nature but have found a that nature but have found a

difficulty in finding sufficiently difficulty in finding sufficiently

difficulty in finding sufficiently qualified teachers to take up the

qualified teachers to take up the qualified teachers to take up the

positions which would be necessary positions which would be necessary

positions which would be necessary positions which would be necessary

to make that happen. Do you think to make that happen. Do you think

to make that happen. Do you think to make that happen. Do you think

the demand is there but his UN met? the demand is there but his UN met?

the demand is there but his UN met? the demand is there but his UN met?

That is possibly the case. What I That is possibly the case. What I

That is possibly the case. What I That is possibly the case. What I

have I concern about is the comment have I concern about is the comment

have I concern about is the comment have I concern about is the comment

that the only way we can have that the only way we can have

that the only way we can have diversity is to have the same

diversity is to have the same curriculum everywhere. That seems

curriculum everywhere. That seems curriculum everywhere. That seems

curriculum everywhere. That seems to be the opposite of diversity to

to be the opposite of diversity to to be the opposite of diversity to

to be the opposite of diversity to me. From the front row? I think I

me. From the front row? I think I me. From the front row? I think I

would want to disagree with what would want to disagree with what

would want to disagree with what Harry said because the choice that

Harry said because the choice that Harry said because the choice that

Harry said because the choice that he is offering is not a choice for

he is offering is not a choice for he is offering is not a choice for

everyone. It might work in the everyone. It might work in the

everyone. It might work in the everyone. It might work in the

cities but it does not work in cities but it does not work in

cities but it does not work in rural areas where however diverse

rural areas where however diverse rural areas where however diverse

rural areas where however diverse the choices in theory, it simply is

the choices in theory, it simply is the choices in theory, it simply is

too remote for individuals to send too remote for individuals to send

too remote for individuals to send their children or for older

their children or for older their children or for older

their children or for older children to attend, so I think we

children to attend, so I think we children to attend, so I think we

have to operate in the real-world. have to operate in the real-world.

have to operate in the real-world. have to operate in the real-world.

One of the things that remains with One of the things that remains with

One of the things that remains with me from my childhood, which was

me from my childhood, which was me from my childhood, which was

centuries ago, is the alienation centuries ago, is the alienation

centuries ago, is the alienation that I felt not during religious

that I felt not during religious that I felt not during religious

classes in school, because I knew classes in school, because I knew

classes in school, because I knew exactly what they were for, but

exactly what they were for, but exactly what they were for, but

ceremonies like prize giving us and ceremonies like prize giving us and

ceremonies like prize giving us and ceremonies like prize giving us and

assemblies and I think if you are assemblies and I think if you are