21/02/2013 Newsnight Scotland

he will remain a strong presence in the Italian Parliament, on Italian

the Italian Parliament, on Italian the Italian Parliament, on Italian

television and on the streets of Tonight on Newsnight Scotland:

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: Falsified figures, public deception

Falsified figures, public deception Falsified figures, public deception

and patients misled. That's what and patients misled. That's what

and patients misled. That's what the opposition are claiming after

the opposition are claiming after the public sector watchdog

the public sector watchdog the public sector watchdog

delivered a critical report about delivered a critical report about

delivered a critical report about the management of NHS waiting times.

the management of NHS waiting times. the management of NHS waiting times.

Glasgow University students vote no Glasgow University students vote no

Glasgow University students vote no in their own mock independence

in their own mock independence in their own mock independence

in their own mock independence referendum. Just a bit of fun or a

referendum. Just a bit of fun or a straw in the wind?

Good evening. Good evening.

Good evening. Unlike almost every other public

Unlike almost every other public Unlike almost every other public

organisation in Scotland, the NHS organisation in Scotland, the NHS

organisation in Scotland, the NHS organisation in Scotland, the NHS

will not see a single penny cut will not see a single penny cut

will not see a single penny cut will not see a single penny cut

from its budget. Proof, if any were from its budget. Proof, if any were

from its budget. Proof, if any were from its budget. Proof, if any were

needed, of the place it occupies in needed, of the place it occupies in

our affections and politicians' our affections and politicians'

our affections and politicians' priorities. And when it's perceived

priorities. And when it's perceived priorities. And when it's perceived

that a government is getting that a government is getting

something wrong, political something wrong, political

something wrong, political consequences usually flow. Think of

consequences usually flow. Think of consequences usually flow. Think of

consequences usually flow. Think of the damage done to the old Labour

the damage done to the old Labour the damage done to the old Labour

and Lib Dem Executive by their and Lib Dem Executive by their

and Lib Dem Executive by their handling of waiting lists. So the

handling of waiting lists. So the handling of waiting lists. So the

SNP Government couldn't have been SNP Government couldn't have been

SNP Government couldn't have been pleased when the public sector

pleased when the public sector watchdog, Audit Scotland today

watchdog, Audit Scotland today watchdog, Audit Scotland today

turned its guns on the management turned its guns on the management

turned its guns on the management of waiting times on its watch.

of waiting times on its watch. of waiting times on its watch.

There are some strobing effects on The Government has been shortening

The Government has been shortening The Government has been shortening

waiting list targets. In December waiting list targets. In December

waiting list targets. In December waiting list targets. In December

2011 the wait was supposed to be no 2011 the wait was supposed to be no

2011 the wait was supposed to be no 2011 the wait was supposed to be no

longer than 18 weeks from the first longer than 18 weeks from the first

longer than 18 weeks from the first consultation with your GP to

consultation with your GP to consultation with your GP to

treatment. Now, you have a legal treatment. Now, you have a legal

treatment. Now, you have a legal right to have received treatment

right to have received treatment right to have received treatment

right to have received treatment within 12 weeks of that course of

within 12 weeks of that course of treatment being agreed.

treatment being agreed. treatment being agreed.

treatment being agreed. These targets put some areas of the

These targets put some areas of the These targets put some areas of the

NHS under pressure and 18 months NHS under pressure and 18 months

NHS under pressure and 18 months ago it was discovered that hundreds

ago it was discovered that hundreds ago it was discovered that hundreds

of patients in Lothian were being of patients in Lothian were being

of patients in Lothian were being marked down as unavailable because

marked down as unavailable because marked down as unavailable because

the health board couldn't treat the health board couldn't treat

the health board couldn't treat the health board couldn't treat

them within a target of 18 weeks. them within a target of 18 weeks.

them within a target of 18 weeks. Audit Scotland found the problem

Audit Scotland found the problem Audit Scotland found the problem

went wider. In June 201131% of went wider. In June 201131% of

inpatients were recorded as inpatients were recorded as

socially unavailable for treatment. socially unavailable for treatment.

socially unavailable for treatment. But the reasons for that

But the reasons for that unavailability were not recorded.

unavailability were not recorded. unavailability were not recorded.

During the period we audited the During the period we audited the

Scottish Government and health Scottish Government and health

Scottish Government and health boards were focusing on whether the

boards were focusing on whether the boards were focusing on whether the

waiting times target was being waiting times target was being

waiting times target was being achieved rather than how it was

achieved rather than how it was achieved rather than how it was

being achieved. If they had been being achieved. If they had been

being achieved. If they had been looking at the bigger pictures,

looking at the bigger pictures, looking at the bigger pictures,

looking at the bigger pictures, they would have seen the use of

unavailability codes. unavailability codes.

unavailability codes. The Government says the problem has

The Government says the problem has The Government says the problem has

been fixed. We have never said been fixed. We have never said

been fixed. We have never said there was no problem with the

there was no problem with the there was no problem with the

recording of waiting times. Of recording of waiting times. Of

recording of waiting times. Of course, there was a problem related

course, there was a problem related course, there was a problem related

to IT and computer systems... to IT and computer systems...

to IT and computer systems... to IT and computer systems...

there a problem now? I am not there a problem now? I am not

there a problem now? I am not saying there is no problem now.

saying there is no problem now. saying there is no problem now.

saying there is no problem now. What I am saying the problem is

What I am saying the problem is What I am saying the problem is

identified by Audit Scotland and identified by Audit Scotland and

identified by Audit Scotland and the reports have been addressed.

the reports have been addressed. the reports have been addressed.

However For the Opposition, this However For the Opposition, this

However For the Opposition, this However For the Opposition, this

issue is one of trust and there is issue is one of trust and there is

issue is one of trust and there is no mistaking who they are blaming.

no mistaking who they are blaming. no mistaking who they are blaming.

In June 2011 Nicola Sturgeon was In June 2011 Nicola Sturgeon was

In June 2011 Nicola Sturgeon was In June 2011 Nicola Sturgeon was

given a set of figures which said given a set of figures which said

given a set of figures which said that only 3% of patients waited

that only 3% of patients waited that only 3% of patients waited

only nine weeks for hospital only nine weeks for hospital

only nine weeks for hospital treatment when the truth was 23%.

treatment when the truth was 23%. treatment when the truth was 23%.

treatment when the truth was 23%. At the same time, she was given

At the same time, she was given At the same time, she was given

figures which said that the number figures which said that the number

figures which said that the number figures which said that the number

figures which said that the number of people too busy to go to get the

of people too busy to go to get the of people too busy to go to get the

treatment they needed had tripled. treatment they needed had tripled.

treatment they needed had tripled. treatment they needed had tripled.

She was told that one in three She was told that one in three

She was told that one in three Scots on waiting lists were too

Scots on waiting lists were too Scots on waiting lists were too

Scots on waiting lists were too busy to be cured. She knew what was

busy to be cured. She knew what was busy to be cured. She knew what was

busy to be cured. She knew what was happening. Did she not have the wit

happening. Did she not have the wit happening. Did she not have the wit

to notice that waiting lists were to notice that waiting lists were

to notice that waiting lists were being false identity or did this

being false identity or did this being false identity or did this

suit her? The statement that it suit her? The statement that it

suit her? The statement that it released, did it say we want

released, did it say we want released, did it say we want

improvements in the health service, improvements in the health service,

improvements in the health service, improvements in the health service,

we want the computer system to be introduced.

introduced. introduced.

introduced. As Labour know, the Irish you of

As Labour know, the Irish you of As Labour know, the Irish you of

hidden ways -- issue of hidden hidden ways -- issue of hidden

hidden ways -- issue of hidden lists can be damaging. It is

lists can be damaging. It is lists can be damaging. It is

lists can be damaging. It is patients who will find out out if

patients who will find out out if patients who will find out out if

I'm joined now in the studio by I'm joined now in the studio by

Labour's health spokesperson, Labour's health spokesperson,

Labour's health spokesperson, Jackie Baillie and also by Bob

Jackie Baillie and also by Bob Jackie Baillie and also by Bob

Jackie Baillie and also by Bob Dorris who is an SNP MSP for

Dorris who is an SNP MSP for Dorris who is an SNP MSP for

Glasgow. Your problem on this is Glasgow. Your problem on this is

Glasgow. Your problem on this is Glasgow. Your problem on this is

that you have got the patents on that you have got the patents on

that you have got the patents on that you have got the patents on

hidden waiting list so you are not hidden waiting list so you are not

hidden waiting list so you are not in a position to criticise?

in a position to criticise? in a position to criticise?

Absolutely not. What audit Scotland Absolutely not. What audit Scotland

Absolutely not. What audit Scotland Scotland demonstrated that one in

Scotland demonstrated that one in Scotland demonstrated that one in

three patients were parked on three patients were parked on

three patients were parked on hidden waiting list... That was

hidden waiting list... That was hidden waiting list... That was

hidden waiting list... That was when you were in power, it was 34%.

when you were in power, it was 34%. when you were in power, it was 34%.

Those people who had breached their Those people who had breached their

waiting time guarantee wherein waiting time guarantee wherein

waiting time guarantee wherein reported. There is an issue --

reported. There is an issue -- reported. There is an issue --

weren't reported. There is a real weren't reported. There is a real

weren't reported. There is a real issue about not being able to

issue about not being able to issue about not being able to

issue about not being able to trust... If we are going to be

trust... If we are going to be transparent and honest, under

transparent and honest, under transparent and honest, under

transparent and honest, under Labour 33% of people were on hidden

Labour 33% of people were on hidden Labour 33% of people were on hidden

Labour 33% of people were on hidden waiting lists. You are talk being a

waiting lists. You are talk being a waiting lists. You are talk being a

period seven years ago where what period seven years ago where what

period seven years ago where what period seven years ago where what

we did is we took waiting lists we did is we took waiting lists

we did is we took waiting lists we did is we took waiting lists

that that stood at two years down that that stood at two years down

that that stood at two years down that that stood at two years down

to something like six months and we to something like six months and we

to something like six months and we were making improvements all the

were making improvements all the were making improvements all the

were making improvements all the time. But what we have is a

time. But what we have is a time. But what we have is a

situation here where the lack of situation here where the lack of

situation here where the lack of transparency is such that Audit

transparency is such that Audit transparency is such that Audit

Scotland concluded that you can't Scotland concluded that you can't

Scotland concluded that you can't trust the veracity of the figures

trust the veracity of the figures trust the veracity of the figures

being presented and we don't know being presented and we don't know

being presented and we don't know whether the Government is even

whether the Government is even whether the Government is even

meeting its waiting time targets. meeting its waiting time targets.

meeting its waiting time targets. The problem with your reaction to

The problem with your reaction to The problem with your reaction to

The problem with your reaction to this is it doesn't seem seem to

this is it doesn't seem seem to this is it doesn't seem seem to

bear much relationship to what this bear much relationship to what this

bear much relationship to what this bear much relationship to what this

report says. I am sure there are report says. I am sure there are

report says. I am sure there are problems with IT, there are

problems with IT, there are problems with IT, there are

everywhere, but that's not what the everywhere, but that's not what the

everywhere, but that's not what the report says the problem is. The

report says the problem is. The report says the problem is. The

report says the problem is. The report says the problem was that on

report says the problem was that on report says the problem was that on

the computer systems in the boxes the computer systems in the boxes

the computer systems in the boxes where medical staff should have

where medical staff should have where medical staff should have

recorded the reasons people were recorded the reasons people were

recorded the reasons people were given these codes, they didn't put

given these codes, they didn't put given these codes, they didn't put

given these codes, they didn't put anything in and it is impossible to

anything in and it is impossible to anything in and it is impossible to

anything in and it is impossible to trace whether or not this was a a

trace whether or not this was a a trace whether or not this was a a

deliberate policy to get the deliberate policy to get the

deliberate policy to get the deliberate policy to get the

waiting time down or whether it was waiting time down or whether it was

waiting time down or whether it was just negligence or whether it was

just negligence or whether it was just negligence or whether it was

just negligence or whether it was just they were too busy. That's got

just they were too busy. That's got just they were too busy. That's got

just they were too busy. That's got nothing to do with IT? Well, I am

nothing to do with IT? Well, I am nothing to do with IT? Well, I am

glad that you raised that point glad that you raised that point

glad that you raised that point glad that you raised that point

because it was because of the IT because it was because of the IT

because it was because of the IT systems. The reason that they press

systems. The reason that they press systems. The reason that they press

that had button, there -- press that had button, there -- press

that had button, there -- press that had button, there was not

that had button, there was not that had button, there was not

another button. If somebody was another button. If somebody was

another button. If somebody was socially unavailable... Let me read

socially unavailable... Let me read socially unavailable... Let me read

from the report. It says, "In from the report. It says, "In

from the report. It says, "In general, staff were not recording

general, staff were not recording general, staff were not recording

general, staff were not recording the reasons for applying codes to a

the reasons for applying codes to a the reasons for applying codes to a

patient record." This was in patient record." This was in

patient record." This was in computer systems where it was

computer systems where it was computer systems where it was

computer systems where it was possible to do that you wanted to

possible to do that you wanted to possible to do that you wanted to

possible to do that you wanted to do that? I I don't agree, Gordon.

do that? I I don't agree, Gordon. do that? I I don't agree, Gordon.

do that? I I don't agree, Gordon. So Audit Scotland got it wrong?

So Audit Scotland got it wrong? So Audit Scotland got it wrong?

I continue, Gordon? The computer I continue, Gordon? The computer

I continue, Gordon? The computer systems not flexible enough to

record. record.

record. record.

It is what they say in the report. It is what they say in the report.

It is what they say in the report. The IT systems were not sensitive

The IT systems were not sensitive The IT systems were not sensitive

The IT systems were not sensitive enough to record all the data. The

enough to record all the data. The enough to record all the data. The

accusation has been made not by accusation has been made not by

accusation has been made not by Audit Scotland actually, but by the

Audit Scotland actually, but by the Audit Scotland actually, but by the

Labour Party that one in four Labour Party that one in four

Labour Party that one in four patients were on some form of

patients were on some form of patients were on some form of

hidden waiting list... Am I hidden waiting list... Am I

hidden waiting list... Am I misreading this report? You are

misreading this report? You are misreading this report? You are

misreading this report? You are correct because if it was just a

correct because if it was just a correct because if it was just a

correct because if it was just a matter of a computer problem or a

matter of a computer problem or a matter of a computer problem or a

clerical error then what we clerical error then what we

clerical error then what we wouldn't be seeing is the variation

wouldn't be seeing is the variation wouldn't be seeing is the variation

across Scotland that indicates key across Scotland that indicates key

across Scotland that indicates key pressure points if you take take

opthamology. opthamology.

opthamology. They say these problems have been

They say these problems have been They say these problems have been

sorted out because of the measures sorted out because of the measures

sorted out because of the measures taken last year. The report by

taken last year. The report by Audit Scotland addresses the

Audit Scotland addresses the Audit Scotland addresses the

measures taken last year and says measures taken last year and says

measures taken last year and says they don't sort the problems out.

they don't sort the problems out. they don't sort the problems out.

they don't sort the problems out. Again if I can quote, it says,

Again if I can quote, it says, "Updated waiting list guidance

"Updated waiting list guidance "Updated waiting list guidance

should help improve monitoring and should help improve monitoring and

should help improve monitoring and reporting, but does not address the

reporting, but does not address the reporting, but does not address the

reporting, but does not address the risks.". You are right. We have not

risks.". You are right. We have not risks.". You are right. We have not

addressed all the issues. We have addressed all the issues. We have

addressed all the issues. We have addressed all the issues. We have

said we have addressed 91% of the said we have addressed 91% of the

said we have addressed 91% of the issues raised in the internal

issues raised in the internal issues raised in the internal

issues raised in the internal audits and it is work in progress

audits and it is work in progress audits and it is work in progress

to addresses the additional matters to addresses the additional matters

to addresses the additional matters to addresses the additional matters

raised by Audit Scotland and we are raised by Audit Scotland and we are

raised by Audit Scotland and we are moving towards that and things are

moving towards that and things are moving towards that and things are

improving. I can't Jacqui away with improving. I can't Jacqui away with

improving. I can't Jacqui away with improving. I can't Jacqui away with

the figure with one in three that the figure with one in three that

the figure with one in three that she is saying in hidden waiting

she is saying in hidden waiting she is saying in hidden waiting

she is saying in hidden waiting list of the that's untrue. On the

list of the that's untrue. On the list of the that's untrue. On the

time period Jackie is talking about, time period Jackie is talking about,

time period Jackie is talking about, 94% of patients including those

94% of patients including those 94% of patients including those

marked socially unavail able or marked socially unavail able or

medically unavailable got their medically unavailable got their

medically unavailable got their appointment within 18 ekes ekes

appointment within 18 ekes ekes appointment within 18 ekes ekes

appointment within 18 ekes ekes weeks. -- 18 weeks. The figure one

weeks. -- 18 weeks. The figure one weeks. -- 18 weeks. The figure one

weeks. -- 18 weeks. The figure one in three is the Labour Party in

in three is the Labour Party in in three is the Labour Party in

their hidden waiting lists which we their hidden waiting lists which we

their hidden waiting lists which we abol abolished in 2008. On the...

abol abolished in 2008. On the... abol abolished in 2008. On the...

abol abolished in 2008. On the... What is the figure? There are two

What is the figure? There are two What is the figure? There are two

different sets of figures which are different sets of figures which are

different sets of figures which are critical. It talks about social

critical. It talks about social critical. It talks about social

unavailability in 2008, being 11% unavailability in 2008, being 11%

unavailability in 2008, being 11% of the patient population. Rise to

of the patient population. Rise to of the patient population. Rise to

of the patient population. Rise to go June 2011 -- rising to June 2011

go June 2011 -- rising to June 2011 go June 2011 -- rising to June 2011

to a staggering 21% of the to a staggering 21% of the

to a staggering 21% of the population. 70% of Glaswegians were

population. 70% of Glaswegians were population. 70% of Glaswegians were

socially unavailable. Can I deal socially unavailable. Can I deal

socially unavailable. Can I deal with the other figure? That's not

with the other figure? That's not with the other figure? That's not

true. I represent Glasgow. I would true. I represent Glasgow. I would

true. I represent Glasgow. I would like to talk about Glasgow.

like to talk about Glasgow. like to talk about Glasgow.

Of the cases that were breached, Of the cases that were breached,

Of the cases that were breached, were reported by the Scottish

were reported by the Scottish were reported by the Scottish

Government. 23% weren't. It was hidden.

hidden. hidden.

hidden. The bottom line is we know in

The bottom line is we know in The bottom line is we know in

Lothian, there were doing this. The Lothian, there were doing this. The

Lothian, there were doing this. The Lothian, there were doing this. The

point is, you don't know, Alec Neil point is, you don't know, Alec Neil

point is, you don't know, Alec Neil doesn't know and Audit Scotland

doesn't know and Audit Scotland doesn't know and Audit Scotland

can't find out whether this has can't find out whether this has

can't find out whether this has been widespread. It could have been.

been widespread. It could have been. been widespread. It could have been.

Audit Scotland said said there was Audit Scotland said said there was

Audit Scotland said said there was no evidence... No, no they said

no evidence... No, no they said no evidence... No, no they said

there was not the information there was not the information

there was not the information available to judge whether this was

available to judge whether this was happening or not.

happening or not. happening or not.

happening or not. You are right and that was because

You are right and that was because You are right and that was because

of the IT systems, but Audit of the IT systems, but Audit

of the IT systems, but Audit Scotland looked at up to 270,000

Scotland looked at up to 270,000 Scotland looked at up to 270,000

individual cases where they spoke individual cases where they spoke

individual cases where they spoke individual cases where they spoke

to people and they found almost no to people and they found almost no

evidence of anything inappropriate. evidence of anything inappropriate.

evidence of anything inappropriate. Audit Scotland finds no evidence,

Audit Scotland finds no evidence, Audit Scotland finds no evidence,

Jackie should... It is like a Jackie should... It is like a

Jackie should... It is like a company accused of tax evasion.

company accused of tax evasion. company accused of tax evasion.

company accused of tax evasion. They say, "You can't prove we have

They say, "You can't prove we have They say, "You can't prove we have

done anything illegal." Why are you done anything illegal." Why are you

done anything illegal." Why are you done anything illegal." Why are you

not saying - we will be examining not saying - we will be examining

not saying - we will be examining not saying - we will be examining

not saying - we will be examining this to fin out if there was -- fin

this to fin out if there was -- fin this to fin out if there was -- fin

this to fin out if there was -- fin out if there was any evidence of

out if there was any evidence of out if there was any evidence of

deliberate evasion. The reason we deliberate evasion. The reason we

deliberate evasion. The reason we deliberate evasion. The reason we

don't have a -- couldn't have a don't have a -- couldn't have a

don't have a -- couldn't have a full audit trail, the IT system

full audit trail, the IT system full audit trail, the IT system

didn't allow it. They are putting didn't allow it. They are putting

didn't allow it. They are putting didn't allow it. They are putting

in a new IT system. There used to in a new IT system. There used to

in a new IT system. There used to be 11 different IT systems and

be 11 different IT systems and be 11 different IT systems and

be 11 different IT systems and there are now three and we are

there are now three and we are there are now three and we are

there are now three and we are bringing in one. He had a point

bringing in one. He had a point bringing in one. He had a point

bringing in one. He had a point when you said you were only using

when you said you were only using when you said you were only using

when you said you were only using this to have a go at Nicola

Sturgeon. Sturgeon.

Sturgeon. Patients have been parked on hidden

Patients have been parked on hidden Patients have been parked on hidden

waiting list and denied treatment. waiting list and denied treatment.

waiting list and denied treatment. waiting list and denied treatment.

If you are a patient or potential If you are a patient or potential

If you are a patient or potential patient watching this, we have got

patient watching this, we have got patient watching this, we have got

you obsca kating waiting lists. you obsca kating waiting lists.

you obsca kating waiting lists. Patients condition trust either of

Patients condition trust either of Patients condition trust either of

-- can't trust either of you. -- can't trust either of you.

-- can't trust either of you. In 2008 we inherited hidden lists.

In 2008 we inherited hidden lists. Additional issues have been

Additional issues have been Additional issues have been

identified and we are putting them right.

right. right.

right. This is about patients. The SNP are

This is about patients. The SNP are This is about patients. The SNP are

saying it is about a computer saying it is about a computer

saying it is about a computer system. Frankly... Let's Leave it

there. there.

there. Glasgow University is where the

Glasgow University is where the Glasgow University is where the

modern SNP was born. It's also modern SNP was born. It's also

modern SNP was born. It's also where two of the architects of

where two of the architects of where two of the architects of

Scottish devolution, John Smith and Scottish devolution, John Smith and

Scottish devolution, John Smith and Donald Dewar, cut their political

Donald Dewar, cut their political Donald Dewar, cut their political

teeth. And when all 23,000 of teeth. And when all 23,000 of

teeth. And when all 23,000 of today's students were invited to

today's students were invited to today's students were invited to

today's students were invited to today's students were invited to

get ahead of the game and vote in a get ahead of the game and vote in a

mock independence referendum, it mock independence referendum, it

mock independence referendum, it mock independence referendum, it

was bound to elicit a lot of was bound to elicit a lot of

attention. Tonight, the students attention. Tonight, the students

attention. Tonight, the students have spoken. In a pitiful turnout

have spoken. In a pitiful turnout have spoken. In a pitiful turnout

of about 10%, 62% voted against of about 10%, 62% voted against

of about 10%, 62% voted against independence with 37% in favour.

independence with 37% in favour. independence with 37% in favour.

Laura Maxwell spent the day on Laura Maxwell spent the day on

Laura Maxwell spent the day on campus. Lord Kelvin, one of the

campus. Lord Kelvin, one of the campus. Lord Kelvin, one of the

greatest scientists of his age and greatest scientists of his age and

greatest scientists of his age and unionist appears to be waiting

unionist appears to be waiting unionist appears to be waiting

patiently as the temperature rises patiently as the temperature rises

patiently as the temperature rises here. The lecture halls and

here. The lecture halls and here. The lecture halls and

libraries have for the last month libraries have for the last month

libraries have for the last month become a microcosm of Scottish

become a microcosm of Scottish become a microcosm of Scottish

politics. Students were answering a politics. Students were answering a

politics. Students were answering a question - should Scotland be an

question - should Scotland be an question - should Scotland be an

question - should Scotland be an independent country - yes or or no?

independent country - yes or or no? independent country - yes or or no?

I am passionate about the UK I am passionate about the UK

I am passionate about the UK I am passionate about the UK

staying as a whole because I love staying as a whole because I love

staying as a whole because I love staying as a whole because I love

Scotland and I love Britain and I Scotland and I love Britain and I

Scotland and I love Britain and I Scotland and I love Britain and I

love the fact that I can represent love the fact that I can represent

love the fact that I can represent both like Scotland and Britain can

be together. be together.

be together. be together.

be together. In a year's time we will have a the

In a year's time we will have a the In a year's time we will have a the

real vote and getting people real vote and getting people

real vote and getting people real vote and getting people

engaged with that mock vote, it is engaged with that mock vote, it is

engaged with that mock vote, it is a brilliant thing. Hopefully, it

a brilliant thing. Hopefully, it a brilliant thing. Hopefully, it

will encourage them to engage with will encourage them to engage with

will encourage them to engage with the real campaign when it comes.

the real campaign when it comes. the real campaign when it comes.

Students have taken their politics Students have taken their politics

Students have taken their politics Students have taken their politics

seriously. It is just the rest of seriously. It is just the rest of

seriously. It is just the rest of seriously. It is just the rest of

us don't show much of an interest. us don't show much of an interest.

us don't show much of an interest. us don't show much of an interest.

Why then do we suddenly care what Why then do we suddenly care what

Why then do we suddenly care what they think? Well, given that boths

they think? Well, given that boths they think? Well, given that boths

they think? Well, given that boths sides in this -- both sides claim

sides in this -- both sides claim sides in this -- both sides claim

to best represent Scotland's future, to best represent Scotland's future,

to best represent Scotland's future, to best represent Scotland's future,

then whoever wins here can claim a then whoever wins here can claim a

then whoever wins here can claim a political coup, even though many of

political coup, even though many of political coup, even though many of

the people voting today won be the people voting today won be

the people voting today won be the people voting today won be

eligible to -- won be eligible to eligible to -- won be eligible to

eligible to -- won be eligible to take part in the real referendum.

take part in the real referendum. take part in the real referendum.

There has been political money There has been political money

There has been political money spend on this campaign. Glossy

spend on this campaign. Glossy spend on this campaign. Glossy

posters and placards sit alongside posters and placards sit alongside

posters and placards sit alongside the usual photo copies. The polls

the usual photo copies. The polls the usual photo copies. The polls

opened at 10am, the students were opened at 10am, the students were

opened at 10am, the students were opened at 10am, the students were

in danger of living up to their in danger of living up to their

in danger of living up to their characture. By lunch time, turnout

characture. By lunch time, turnout characture. By lunch time, turnout

was brisk. Queen Margaret would was brisk. Queen Margaret would

was brisk. Queen Margaret would have been pleased to see these

have been pleased to see these have been pleased to see these

queues outside the union named after her.

after her. after her.

after her. I feel we are too small a nation.

I feel we are too small a nation. I feel we are too small a nation.

I feel we are too small a nation. We are a part of one eye island.

We are a part of one eye island. We are a part of one eye island.

What's the point in breaking things What's the point in breaking things

What's the point in breaking things up? Why would would making things

up? Why would would making things up? Why would would making things

smaller improve anything? I didn't vote.

vote. vote.

REPORTER: Why not? To get Scotland REPORTER: Why not? To get Scotland

as a single country. as a single country.

REPORTER: Independence? I don't REPORTER: Independence? I don't

REPORTER: Independence? I don't think it would work. I haven't

think it would work. I haven't think it would work. I haven't

think it would work. I haven't voted, but I don't think would work.

voted, but I don't think would work. voted, but I don't think would work.

I voted yes because I believe I voted yes because I believe

I voted yes because I believe Scotland would be better off units

Scotland would be better off units Scotland would be better off units

Scotland would be better off units own leadership and -- under its own

own leadership and -- under its own own leadership and -- under its own

leadership and guidance on every leadership and guidance on every

leadership and guidance on every aspect of politics, social policy,

aspect of politics, social policy, aspect of politics, social policy,

economy and all the rest. economy and all the rest.

economy and all the rest. Despite the interest, just over a

Despite the interest, just over a Despite the interest, just over a

tenth of the 23,000 students who tenth of the 23,000 students who

tenth of the 23,000 students who were eligible to vote bothered to

were eligible to vote bothered to were eligible to vote bothered to

were eligible to vote bothered to take part. Legend has it that the

take part. Legend has it that the take part. Legend has it that the

stone of destiny spent time hidden stone of destiny spent time hidden

stone of destiny spent time hidden in the Glasgow University union.

in the Glasgow University union. in the Glasgow University union.

The generation who could be The generation who could be

considered the authors of considered the authors of

devolution, Menzies Campbell and devolution, Menzies Campbell and

devolution, Menzies Campbell and John Smith and Donald do you

John Smith and Donald do you John Smith and Donald do you

remember cut their -- Dewar cut remember cut their -- Dewar cut

their teeth upstairs. Should their teeth upstairs. Should

their teeth upstairs. Should Scotland be an independent country?

Scotland be an independent country? Scotland be an independent country?

Scotland be an independent country? The number of yes votes was 967..

The number of yes votes was 967.. The number of yes votes was 967..

The number of yes votes was 967.. The number of no votes was 1,614.

APPLAUSE APPLAUSE

APPLAUSE The better together campaign is

The better together campaign is The better together campaign is

hoping today's outcome is an omen hoping today's outcome is an omen

hoping today's outcome is an omen for the future. Of course, the

for the future. Of course, the for the future. Of course, the

for the future. Of course, the union was very much in its infancy

union was very much in its infancy union was very much in its infancy

union was very much in its infancy when Adam Smith came here aged just

when Adam Smith came here aged just when Adam Smith came here aged just

when Adam Smith came here aged just 14, not even he would have been

14, not even he would have been 14, not even he would have been

given a vote in next year's given a vote in next year's

given a vote in next year's referendum. What this advocate of

referendum. What this advocate of referendum. What this advocate of

Free Speech might have enjoyed is Free Speech might have enjoyed is

Free Speech might have enjoyed is the opportunity it has given

the opportunity it has given the opportunity it has given

students to engage in the moral, students to engage in the moral,

political and social debate. political and social debate.

political and social debate. Still with me are Jackie Baillie,

Still with me are Jackie Baillie, Still with me are Jackie Baillie,

Labour's health spokesman who has Labour's health spokesman who has

Labour's health spokesman who has actually come straight here from

actually come straight here from actually come straight here from

the count at Glasgow University the count at Glasgow University

the count at Glasgow University the count at Glasgow University

this evening as is the SNP's Bob this evening as is the SNP's Bob

this evening as is the SNP's Bob Dorris. Joining them is Michael

Dorris. Joining them is Michael Dorris. Joining them is Michael

Gray of the University's Dialectic Gray of the University's Dialectic

Gray of the University's Dialectic Society who organised today's vote.

Society who organised today's vote. Society who organised today's vote.

Michael, are you disappoiped in the Michael, are you disappoiped in the

Michael, are you disappoiped in the -- disappointed in the turnout, or

-- disappointed in the turnout, or -- disappointed in the turnout, or

-- disappointed in the turnout, or do you think it reflects the fact

do you think it reflects the fact do you think it reflects the fact

that people aren't interested? that people aren't interested?

that people aren't interested? that people aren't interested?

lot needs to be done to engage in lot needs to be done to engage in

lot needs to be done to engage in the debate. Today we had the

the debate. Today we had the the debate. Today we had the

biggest single turnout for an biggest single turnout for an

biggest single turnout for an election since 2006. So there is

student apathy. student apathy.

student apathy. That's good for Glasgow, this is

That's good for Glasgow, this is That's good for Glasgow, this is

That's good for Glasgow, this is good is it? Over 2,500 people voted

good is it? Over 2,500 people voted good is it? Over 2,500 people voted

good is it? Over 2,500 people voted today in an election we spent �50

You think people aren't engaging You think people aren't engaging

You think people aren't engaging You think people aren't engaging

with the issue? This is a problem with the issue? This is a problem

with the issue? This is a problem the debate has been narrow and

the debate has been narrow and the debate has been narrow and

hasn't focused on inspiring people hasn't focused on inspiring people

hasn't focused on inspiring people hasn't focused on inspiring people

and our debates went some way to alleviate that.

alleviate that. alleviate that.

alleviate that. Are you going to have another one?

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Before the referendum? We are going

Before the referendum? We are going Before the referendum? We are going

Before the referendum? We are going to try and promote more debate on

campus. campus.

campus. campus.

Now, you can crow for a bit. Now, you can crow for a bit.

Now, you can crow for a bit. Now, you can crow for a bit.

Quickly, I think it was a great Quickly, I think it was a great

Quickly, I think it was a great Quickly, I think it was a great

result. I do know that the SNP result. I do know that the SNP

result. I do know that the SNP through the kitchen sink at this.

through the kitchen sink at this. through the kitchen sink at this.

They had the Deputy First Minister They had the Deputy First Minister

They had the Deputy First Minister They had the Deputy First Minister

there, a number of SNPs and despite there, a number of SNPs and despite

there, a number of SNPs and despite that, I think the students at

that, I think the students at that, I think the students at

Glasgow University thought long and Glasgow University thought long and

Glasgow University thought long and hard and decided they wanted

hard and decided they wanted hard and decided they wanted

Scotland to remain within the United Kingdom.

United Kingdom. United Kingdom.

That's enough crowing. I don't That's enough crowing. I don't

That's enough crowing. I don't That's enough crowing. I don't

think there is any excuses. 37% is think there is any excuses. 37% is

think there is any excuses. 37% is a reasonable yes vote at this

a reasonable yes vote at this a reasonable yes vote at this

a reasonable yes vote at this moment in time. It is better than

moment in time. It is better than moment in time. It is better than

moment in time. It is better than the polls, isn't it? It is a

the polls, isn't it? It is a the polls, isn't it? It is a

reasonable starting point. I would reasonable starting point. I would

reasonable starting point. I would be interested to see the movement

be interested to see the movement be interested to see the movement

on campus as more students get engaged.

engaged. engaged.

engaged. Yes, the turnout was low, but I

Yes, the turnout was low, but I Yes, the turnout was low, but I

also believe that students... also believe that students...

also believe that students... also believe that students...

are starting to sound like it is a are starting to sound like it is a

are starting to sound like it is a real election and you are giving

your consent. LAUGHTER

LAUGHTER LAUGHTER

I want to actually see something I want to actually see something

I want to actually see something that the students that didn't vote

that the students that didn't vote that the students that didn't vote

that the students that didn't vote which is why I'm saying that. I

which is why I'm saying that. I which is why I'm saying that. I

don't believe the students that don't believe the students that

don't believe the students that didn't vote are not engaged. I

didn't vote are not engaged. I didn't vote are not engaged. I

believe they are becoming engaged believe they are becoming engaged

believe they are becoming engaged in the independence referendum and

in the independence referendum and in the independence referendum and

debate and I think... Young people debate and I think... Young people

debate and I think... Young people were supposedly flocking to the yes

were supposedly flocking to the yes were supposedly flocking to the yes

were supposedly flocking to the yes camp, there is not any evidence of

camp, there is not any evidence of camp, there is not any evidence of

that? What?That young people are that? What?That young people are

that? What?That young people are that? What?That young people are

flocking to the yes camp. I am a flocking to the yes camp. I am a

former graduate of Glasgow former graduate of Glasgow

former graduate of Glasgow University and I don't think

University and I don't think University and I don't think

Glasgow University turnout of 12% Glasgow University turnout of 12%

Glasgow University turnout of 12% is going to be representative of

is going to be representative of is going to be representative of

young people across Scotland. But young people across Scotland. But

young people across Scotland. But young people across Scotland. But

it is a significant attempt to get it is a significant attempt to get

it is a significant attempt to get opinion of the student population

opinion of the student population opinion of the student population

within Glasgow University. Were you within Glasgow University. Were you

within Glasgow University. Were you surprised by the result? It follows

surprised by the result? It follows surprised by the result? It follows

national trends. It is not just national trends. It is not just

national trends. It is not just about the politicians, it the no

about the politicians, it the no about the politicians, it the no

about the politicians, it the no just about the SNP and the Labour

just about the SNP and the Labour just about the SNP and the Labour

Party leading this debate. It is Party leading this debate. It is

Party leading this debate. It is about people on their own campuses

about people on their own campuses about people on their own campuses

and in their own own communities and in their own own communities

and in their own own communities and that's hopefully what we

started today. started today.

started today. started today.

You said, are you saying you are You said, are you saying you are

You said, are you saying you are You said, are you saying you are

going to have another one of your going to have another one of your

going to have another one of your own referendums before the 2014?

own referendums before the 2014? own referendums before the 2014?

own referendums before the 2014? are going to have more and more

are going to have more and more are going to have more and more

debates on campus. It wasn't only debates on campus. It wasn't only

debates on campus. It wasn't only about the vote today, the

about the vote today, the about the vote today, the

representative yes or no. We had representative yes or no. We had

representative yes or no. We had five debates on social jus justice.

five debates on social jus justice. five debates on social jus justice.

That generated a lot of interest. That generated a lot of interest.

That generated a lot of interest. And you would like other

And you would like other universities to copy you?

universities to copy you? universities to copy you?

Absolutely. There will be people Absolutely. There will be people

Absolutely. There will be people watching who will be thinking about

watching who will be thinking about watching who will be thinking about

running these events on their own running these events on their own

running these events on their own colleges and own campuses and I

colleges and own campuses and I colleges and own campuses and I

colleges and own campuses and I would say do it. Do you happen to

would say do it. Do you happen to would say do it. Do you happen to

know whether anyone else is know whether anyone else is

know whether anyone else is know whether anyone else is

planning to do this? We have had planning to do this? We have had

some interest from other some interest from other

universities in Scotland. universities in Scotland.

universities in Scotland. Both of you would like the

Both of you would like the Both of you would like the

universities to do this? We have universities to do this? We have

universities to do this? We have seen university students at Glasgow

seen university students at Glasgow seen university students at Glasgow

engaged with the issues and voting engaged with the issues and voting

engaged with the issues and voting to remain in the United Kingdom.

to remain in the United Kingdom. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

Tomorrow's front pages. The Herald Tomorrow's front pages. The Herald

Tomorrow's front pages. The Herald Tomorrow's front pages. The Herald

have a Tory saying that -- story have a Tory saying that -- story

have a Tory saying that -- story saying that horsemeat has been

saying that horsemeat has been saying that horsemeat has been

found in food for schoolchildren. found in food for schoolchildren.

found in food for schoolchildren. found in food for schoolchildren.

The Times, fuel prices are set to The Times, fuel prices are set to

The Times, fuel prices are set to reach record record levels by

Easter. Easter.

Easter. Easter.

That's all from me. Just time to That's all from me. Just time to

That's all from me. Just time to tell you that on Monday Glenn

tell you that on Monday Glenn tell you that on Monday Glenn

Campbell will be here with a Campbell will be here with a

Campbell will be here with a special debate looking at faith,

special debate looking at faith, special debate looking at faith,

religion and ethics in modern religion and ethics in modern

religion and ethics in modern Scotland. He'll have a special

Scotland. He'll have a special Scotland. He'll have a special

guest panel who will be taking guest panel who will be taking

guest panel who will be taking questions from a studio audience.

questions from a studio audience. questions from a studio audience.

questions from a studio audience. That's at 10.30pm on Monday on BBC2.

That's at 10.30pm on Monday on BBC2. That's at 10.30pm on Monday on BBC2.

That's at 10.30pm on Monday on BBC2. Good evening.

Good evening. Good evening.

Good evening. A frost to start the day. We could

A frost to start the day. We could A frost to start the day. We could

A frost to start the day. We could get as low as minus 10 Celsius.

get as low as minus 10 Celsius. get as low as minus 10 Celsius.

There will ablot of cloud across There will ablot of cloud across

There will ablot of cloud across There will ablot of cloud across

the eastern side of the UK. The the eastern side of the UK. The

cloud bringing snow showers. cloud bringing snow showers.

cloud bringing snow showers. cloud bringing snow showers.

Through the morning and on into the Through the morning and on into the

Through the morning and on into the afternoon. So grey skies across

afternoon. So grey skies across afternoon. So grey skies across

much of Northern England, but much of Northern England, but

much of Northern England, but Cumbria may have something brighter.

Cumbria may have something brighter. Cumbria may have something brighter.

Cumbria may have something brighter. There are the wintry showers in and

There are the wintry showers in and There are the wintry showers in and

There are the wintry showers in and around the wash. Add in the effects

around the wash. Add in the effects around the wash. Add in the effects

around the wash. Add in the effects of the wind and it will feel more

of the wind and it will feel more of the wind and it will feel more

of the wind and it will feel more like minus 2 or 3 Celsius. Cold in

like minus 2 or 3 Celsius. Cold in like minus 2 or 3 Celsius. Cold in

the south-west in spite of the the south-west in spite of the

the south-west in spite of the the south-west in spite of the

sunshine. It will be cold and grey sunshine. It will be cold and grey

across much of Wales. across much of Wales.

across much of Wales. After a grey start in Northern

After a grey start in Northern After a grey start in Northern

Ireland, we should see good sunny Ireland, we should see good sunny

Ireland, we should see good sunny Ireland, we should see good sunny

spells developing and only 3 or 4 spells developing and only 3 or 4

spells developing and only 3 or 4 Celsius come the afternoon. After

Celsius come the afternoon. After Celsius come the afternoon. After

Celsius come the afternoon. After that really cold start in the west

that really cold start in the west that really cold start in the west

of Scotland, it will be sunny. of Scotland, it will be sunny.

of Scotland, it will be sunny. Generally speaking a fair bit of

Generally speaking a fair bit of Generally speaking a fair bit of

Generally speaking a fair bit of cloud around to end the week and a

cloud around to end the week and a cloud around to end the week and a

cloud around to end the week and a lot of cloud to start the weekend.

lot of cloud to start the weekend. lot of cloud to start the weekend.

Notice the temperatures staying at Notice the temperatures staying at

Notice the temperatures staying at Notice the temperatures staying at

3, 4 Celsius if you are lucky and 3, 4 Celsius if you are lucky and

3, 4 Celsius if you are lucky and 3, 4 Celsius if you are lucky and

there is that keen breeze. So again, there is that keen breeze. So again,

there is that keen breeze. So again, the wind-chill factor will come

the wind-chill factor will come the wind-chill factor will come

the wind-chill factor will come that play for the first part of the

that play for the first part of the that play for the first part of the

weekend. Not dry on Saturday weekend. Not dry on Saturday

weekend. Not dry on Saturday because there will be wintry

because there will be wintry because there will be wintry

because there will be wintry showers and it looks like it is the

showers and it looks like it is the showers and it looks like it is the

north-east of the UK that's most north-east of the UK that's most

north-east of the UK that's most likely to see those, but there

likely to see those, but there likely to see those, but there

likely to see those, but there could be a bit of wintry weather.

could be a bit of wintry weather. could be a bit of wintry weather.

could be a bit of wintry weather. The best of any brighter weather on