20/02/2013 Newsnight Scotland

power to get you to achieve. That is what is important. Sir Michael,

Good evening. It doesn't really Good evening. It doesn't really

Good evening. It doesn't really matter how you do the arithmetic,

matter how you do the arithmetic, matter how you do the arithmetic,

the statistics for child poverty the statistics for child poverty

the statistics for child poverty make depressing reading and they

make depressing reading and they make depressing reading and they

reach into virtually every corner reach into virtually every corner

reach into virtually every corner of the United Kingdom. Why is

of the United Kingdom. Why is of the United Kingdom. Why is

poverty such an intractable problem poverty such an intractable problem

poverty such an intractable problem poverty such an intractable problem

in some areas? Is throwing money at in some areas? Is throwing money at

in some areas? Is throwing money at in some areas? Is throwing money at

the problem the way to deal with the problem the way to deal with

the problem the way to deal with that? The Campaign to End Child

that? The Campaign to End Child that? The Campaign to End Child

Poverty has compiled a new report Poverty has compiled a new report

which indicates almost one-in-five which indicates almost one-in-five

which indicates almost one-in-five children in the UK lives in

children in the UK lives in children in the UK lives in

relative poverty. Parts of Scotland, relative poverty. Parts of Scotland,

relative poverty. Parts of Scotland, mainly Glasgow, are at the bottom

mainly Glasgow, are at the bottom end of the scale.

end of the scale. end of the scale.

They calculate child poverty by a They calculate child poverty by a

They calculate child poverty by a strip board equation. If the child

strip board equation. If the child strip board equation. If the child

strip board equation. If the child lives in a household which is less

lives in a household which is less lives in a household which is less

lives in a household which is less than 60 % of the national income,

than 60 % of the national income, than 60 % of the national income,

the child lives in poverty. About the child lives in poverty. About

the child lives in poverty. About the child lives in poverty. About

20 % of households fall into that 20 % of households fall into that

20 % of households fall into that category. It doesn't matter for

category. It doesn't matter for category. It doesn't matter for

this purpose if your income this purpose if your income

this purpose if your income includes out-of-work benefits or in

includes out-of-work benefits or in includes out-of-work benefits or in

work tax credits. They have colour- work tax credits. They have colour-

work tax credits. They have colour- coded Scotland to draw attention to

coded Scotland to draw attention to coded Scotland to draw attention to

an unsurprising fact. Blue other an unsurprising fact. Blue other

an unsurprising fact. Blue other local authorities in which child

local authorities in which child local authorities in which child

local authorities in which child poverty is less than 20 %, pink is

poverty is less than 20 %, pink is poverty is less than 20 %, pink is

poverty is less than 20 %, pink is poverty is less than 20 %, pink is

20 % to 30 %, and read his glass go 20 % to 30 %, and read his glass go

20 % to 30 %, and read his glass go were around a third of children

were around a third of children were around a third of children

live in relative poverty. Scotland live in relative poverty. Scotland

live in relative poverty. Scotland compares reasonably well with the

compares reasonably well with the compares reasonably well with the

compares reasonably well with the rest of the UK, but Glasgow north-

rest of the UK, but Glasgow north- east parliamentary constituency is

east parliamentary constituency is east parliamentary constituency is

east parliamentary constituency is one of the very worst in Britain at

one of the very worst in Britain at one of the very worst in Britain at

one of the very worst in Britain at 43 % poverty. It is in the same

43 % poverty. It is in the same 43 % poverty. It is in the same

43 % poverty. It is in the same boat as part of Belfast, and only a

boat as part of Belfast, and only a boat as part of Belfast, and only a

percentage point away from parts of percentage point away from parts of

percentage point away from parts of London and Liverpool. Only a part

London and Liverpool. Only a part London and Liverpool. Only a part

of Manchester is measurably worse. of Manchester is measurably worse.

of Manchester is measurably worse. Little of this is surprising.

Little of this is surprising. Little of this is surprising.

Little of this is surprising. Whitney has less than 10 % jump

Whitney has less than 10 % jump Whitney has less than 10 % jump

poverty, while the Sheffield seat poverty, while the Sheffield seat

poverty, while the Sheffield seat poverty, while the Sheffield seat

is even better off, with less than is even better off, with less than

is even better off, with less than 5%. Orkney and Shetland have the

5%. Orkney and Shetland have the 5%. Orkney and Shetland have the

lowest levels of child poverty in lowest levels of child poverty in

lowest levels of child poverty in Scotland. So, what does it all

Scotland. So, what does it all Scotland. So, what does it all

Scotland. So, what does it all mean? The good news is that the

mean? The good news is that the mean? The good news is that the

number show an improvement up to number show an improvement up to

number show an improvement up to 2011. The charity who have compiled

2011. The charity who have compiled 2011. The charity who have compiled

2011. The charity who have compiled the report fear that trend has been

the report fear that trend has been the report fear that trend has been

the report fear that trend has been reversed. A drop in real income was

reversed. A drop in real income was reversed. A drop in real income was

being balanced by a real increase being balanced by a real increase

being balanced by a real increase in benefits, but changes in the

in benefits, but changes in the in benefits, but changes in the

welfare system give rise to fears welfare system give rise to fears

welfare system give rise to fears for the future. The Institute for

for the future. The Institute for for the future. The Institute for

Fiscal Studies says it anticipates Fiscal Studies says it anticipates

Fiscal Studies says it anticipates almost 500,000 UK children will

almost 500,000 UK children will almost 500,000 UK children will

almost 500,000 UK children will live in poverty by 2015. And in a

live in poverty by 2015. And in a developed democracy, poverty does

developed democracy, poverty does developed democracy, poverty does

developed democracy, poverty does not threaten the lives of more than

not threaten the lives of more than not threaten the lives of more than

a few children, but research by a few children, but research by

a few children, but research by another charity casts a depressing

another charity casts a depressing another charity casts a depressing

light up families in poverty more light up families in poverty more

light up families in poverty more light up families in poverty more

than half the parents have cut back than half the parents have cut back

than half the parents have cut back than half the parents have cut back

on food. Almost at that say the on food. Almost at that say the

on food. Almost at that say the children go without new shoes when

children go without new shoes when children go without new shoes when

children go without new shoes when they needn't and 80 % say they

they needn't and 80 % say they they needn't and 80 % say they

borrow money for essentials like borrow money for essentials like

food and energy bills. food and energy bills.

food and energy bills. I'm joined now from Edinburgh by

I'm joined now from Edinburgh by I'm joined now from Edinburgh by

John Dickie, head of the charity John Dickie, head of the charity

John Dickie, head of the charity Child Poverty Action Group Scotland.

Child Poverty Action Group Scotland. Child Poverty Action Group Scotland.

Here in Glasgow, Ross Martin, Here in Glasgow, Ross Martin,

Here in Glasgow, Ross Martin, Policy Director of the Centre for

Policy Director of the Centre for Policy Director of the Centre for

Scottish Public Policy, and John Scottish Public Policy, and John

McKendrick, who researches poverty McKendrick, who researches poverty

McKendrick, who researches poverty and children's issues at Glasgow

and children's issues at Glasgow and children's issues at Glasgow

Caledonian University. Why is this Caledonian University. Why is this

Caledonian University. Why is this so intractable in certain areas. I

so intractable in certain areas. I so intractable in certain areas. I

bet everyone of us without even bet everyone of us without even

bet everyone of us without even bet everyone of us without even

looking at a map we know exactly looking at a map we know exactly

looking at a map we know exactly looking at a map we know exactly

the parts of each town and city the parts of each town and city

the parts of each town and city the parts of each town and city

that would figure as being the most that would figure as being the most

that would figure as being the most deprived, because they had been

deprived, because they had been deprived, because they had been

deprived, because they had been that way for as long as I can

that way for as long as I can that way for as long as I can

that way for as long as I can remember, 35 or 40 years. It is

remember, 35 or 40 years. It is depressingly familiar. That doesn't

depressingly familiar. That doesn't depressingly familiar. That doesn't

mean it is hopeless. If the mean it is hopeless. If the

mean it is hopeless. If the policies were correct and there

policies were correct and there policies were correct and there

will, we could reduce the problem. will, we could reduce the problem.

will, we could reduce the problem. It is a depressingly familiar

It is a depressingly familiar It is a depressingly familiar

statistic. It is not intractable. statistic. It is not intractable.

statistic. It is not intractable. statistic. It is not intractable.

There is a static element to it. There is a static element to it.

There is a static element to it. There are subtle changes three-time.

There are subtle changes three-time. There are subtle changes three-time.

Glasgow's poverty used to be inner- Glasgow's poverty used to be inner-

Glasgow's poverty used to be inner- Glasgow's poverty used to be inner-

city and have moved out to the city and have moved out to the

city and have moved out to the margins. There is a dynamism to

margins. There is a dynamism to margins. There is a dynamism to

poverty. It could be solved, you poverty. It could be solved, you

poverty. It could be solved, you think, but what is happening? It

think, but what is happening? It think, but what is happening? It

think, but what is happening? It did go. About there has been a

did go. About there has been a did go. About there has been a

slight geographical move, but not slight geographical move, but not

slight geographical move, but not slight geographical move, but not

much, so what is going wrong? much, so what is going wrong?

much, so what is going wrong? don't do enough to address it.

don't do enough to address it. don't do enough to address it.

don't do enough to address it. There is not a commitment or the

There is not a commitment or the There is not a commitment or the

scale of activity that is required. scale of activity that is required.

scale of activity that is required. scale of activity that is required.

We remain a rich country. It is We remain a rich country. It is

We remain a rich country. It is We remain a rich country. It is

about how we deal out our resources. about how we deal out our resources.

about how we deal out our resources. about how we deal out our resources.

At I am sure you are as familiar At I am sure you are as familiar

At I am sure you are as familiar with these maps as everyone here.

with these maps as everyone here. with these maps as everyone here.

with these maps as everyone here. Why is it certain areas don't seem

Why is it certain areas don't seem Why is it certain areas don't seem

Why is it certain areas don't seem to get out of the situation? There

to get out of the situation? There to get out of the situation? There

is no question you have real is no question you have real

concentrations of poverty were concentrations of poverty were

communities and individuals have communities and individuals have

communities and individuals have been cut off from the economic

been cut off from the economic been cut off from the economic

opportunities and where we have opportunities and where we have

opportunities and where we have failed as a society to protect

failed as a society to protect failed as a society to protect

individuals and families from the individuals and families from the

consequences of unemployment, ill consequences of unemployment, ill

consequences of unemployment, ill health and disability. As John says,

health and disability. As John says, health and disability. As John says,

there is nothing inevitable about there is nothing inevitable about

there is nothing inevitable about these levels of child poverty

these levels of child poverty across Scotland. Other countries

across Scotland. Other countries across Scotland. Other countries

who had been through similar who had been through similar

who had been through similar periods have far your levels of

periods have far your levels of periods have far your levels of

child poverty. Denmark, Norway, the child poverty. Denmark, Norway, the

child poverty. Denmark, Norway, the Child poverty rates there are less

Child poverty rates there are less Child poverty rates there are less

Child poverty rates there are less than 10 %. Off we achieve those

than 10 %. Off we achieve those than 10 %. Off we achieve those

rates in this country, we would rates in this country, we would

rates in this country, we would rates in this country, we would

count that as an eradication of gel count that as an eradication of gel

count that as an eradication of gel poverty! -- Child poverty! We have

poverty! -- Child poverty! We have poverty! -- Child poverty! We have

poverty! -- Child poverty! We have seen real progress over the last 10

seen real progress over the last 10 seen real progress over the last 10

or 15 years. 100,000 children were or 15 years. 100,000 children were

or 15 years. 100,000 children were or 15 years. 100,000 children were

lifted out of child poverty by a I unsure 15 years ago, it would

I unsure 15 years ago, it would I unsure 15 years ago, it would

have been more than one have been more than one

have been more than one constituency -- I am sure. Things

constituency -- I am sure. Things constituency -- I am sure. Things

do change, but there is this do change, but there is this

do change, but there is this geographical element to this, what

geographical element to this, what geographical element to this, what

geographical element to this, what is your take on why it has proved

is your take on why it has proved is your take on why it has proved

so difficult? You normally need so difficult? You normally need

so difficult? You normally need so difficult? You normally need

there will, you also need the power there will, you also need the power

there will, you also need the power to change things at an appropriate

to change things at an appropriate to change things at an appropriate

level. We have had segregation of level. We have had segregation of

different parts of government different parts of government

different parts of government pulling in different directions and

pulling in different directions and pulling in different directions and

pulling in different directions and we need to invest at a local level

we need to invest at a local level we need to invest at a local level

we need to invest at a local level and city level, to win pact on

and city level, to win pact on and city level, to win pact on

welfare payment and to take control welfare payment and to take control

welfare payment and to take control of that from the centralised

of that from the centralised of that from the centralised

government at Westminster -- to government at Westminster -- to

government at Westminster -- to impact on that. View shared housing

impact on that. View shared housing impact on that. View shared housing

poverty. There was at a pilot poverty. There was at a pilot

poverty. There was at a pilot project and Glasgow was involved

project and Glasgow was involved project and Glasgow was involved

project and Glasgow was involved among other UK cities, it was back

among other UK cities, it was back among other UK cities, it was back

when Tony Blair was Prime Minister. when Tony Blair was Prime Minister.

when Tony Blair was Prime Minister. A local authority could, for

A local authority could, for A local authority could, for

example, help the people who were example, help the people who were

example, help the people who were example, help the people who were

in need and take benefits away, it in need and take benefits away, it

in need and take benefits away, it in need and take benefits away, it

did that come to anything? It did did that come to anything? It did

did that come to anything? It did did that come to anything? It did

not put it needs to, because there not put it needs to, because there

not put it needs to, because there is a perverse incentive for places

is a perverse incentive for places is a perverse incentive for places

is a perverse incentive for places like Glasgow and not to tackle the

like Glasgow and not to tackle the like Glasgow and not to tackle the

Welfare Bill because the more Welfare Bill because the more

Welfare Bill because the more welfare who meant that comes into

welfare who meant that comes into welfare who meant that comes into

the city from the UK government, the city from the UK government,

the city from the UK government, the city from the UK government,

that is more money in the city that is more money in the city

that is more money in the city that is more money in the city

economy, it is a weird and crazy economy, it is a weird and crazy

economy, it is a weird and crazy incentive which works the opposite

incentive which works the opposite incentive which works the opposite

incentive which works the opposite way! But if these people were in

way! But if these people were in way! But if these people were in

work, there would be more money. work, there would be more money.

work, there would be more money. Look at housing benefit, it comes

Look at housing benefit, it comes Look at housing benefit, it comes

Look at housing benefit, it comes through that route and so it is not

through that route and so it is not through that route and so it is not

money out of the council's budget money out of the council's budget

money out of the council's budget money out of the council's budget

that is used to bring that money in, that is used to bring that money in,

that is used to bring that money in, it comes from central government.

it comes from central government. it comes from central government.

it comes from central government. Until we a lie in the financial

Until we a lie in the financial Until we a lie in the financial

system within government so all the system within government so all the

system within government so all the power across social policy is

power across social policy is power across social policy is

power across social policy is decided in the one set of hands, in

decided in the one set of hands, in decided in the one set of hands, in

decided in the one set of hands, in the City, you will not be able to

the City, you will not be able to the City, you will not be able to

get policy across those things and get policy across those things and

get policy across those things and get policy across those things and

have an impact. I hope I am not have an impact. I hope I am not

have an impact. I hope I am not have an impact. I hope I am not

reading too much and what you say, reading too much and what you say,

reading too much and what you say, reading too much and what you say,

but you suggest this is not about but you suggest this is not about

but you suggest this is not about but you suggest this is not about

giving more money about and -- more giving more money about and -- more

giving more money about and -- more money to poor people, but creating

money to poor people, but creating money to poor people, but creating

a system of incentives for people a system of incentives for people

a system of incentives for people a system of incentives for people

to get out of the situation they to get out of the situation they

to get out of the situation they got in. The easiest route is

got in. The easiest route is got in. The easiest route is

through education and on to through education and on to

through education and on to through education and on to

employment. If you can a line that employment. If you can a line that

housing, education and employment, housing, education and employment,

housing, education and employment, housing, education and employment,

and welfare work that, if you can and welfare work that, if you can

create for example proper create for example proper

comprehensive catchment areas in comprehensive catchment areas in

comprehensive catchment areas in schools. -- and welfare payment. --

schools. -- and welfare payment. -- schools. -- and welfare payment. --

align. There is a niche of align. There is a niche of

align. There is a niche of catchment in London schools and

catchment in London schools and catchment in London schools and

that has raised attainment levels - that has raised attainment levels -

that has raised attainment levels - that has raised attainment levels -

- a mixture. Until you can bring - a mixture. Until you can bring

those policies together properly, those policies together properly,

those policies together properly, those policies together properly,

you will not be able to make a you will not be able to make a

you will not be able to make a change in tackling that. Something

change in tackling that. Something change in tackling that. Something

like that idea, malty catchment, like that idea, malty catchment,

like that idea, malty catchment, like that idea, malty catchment,

what seems to be the case is that what seems to be the case is that

what seems to be the case is that people involved in child poverty

people involved in child poverty people involved in child poverty

groups have been talking the talk groups have been talking the talk

groups have been talking the talk groups have been talking the talk

for years. -- multi. Do you agree for years. -- multi. Do you agree

for years. -- multi. Do you agree with some suggestions he is making

with some suggestions he is making with some suggestions he is making

a? Progress has been made, the a? Progress has been made, the

a? Progress has been made, the a? Progress has been made, the

scale is the key issue. What he scale is the key issue. What he

scale is the key issue. What he said about cohesion, that is

said about cohesion, that is said about cohesion, that is

something we are comfortable with something we are comfortable with

something we are comfortable with something we are comfortable with

up and week allow part of Glasgow up and week allow part of Glasgow

up and week allow part of Glasgow up and week allow part of Glasgow

to have that intensity. -- we are to have that intensity. -- we are

to have that intensity. -- we are comfortable with that and we

comfortable with that and we comfortable with that and we

comfortable with that and we allowed. You in need -- you need to

allowed. You in need -- you need to appreciate your at particular

appreciate your at particular contribution. National government

contribution. National government contribution. National government

and the interim Scottish government and the interim Scottish government

and the interim Scottish government and the interim Scottish government

has a part to play, and players has a part to play, and players

has a part to play, and players have a part to play, and

have a part to play, and communities. Different things can

communities. Different things can communities. Different things can

communities. Different things can be done by different people to make

be done by different people to make be done by different people to make

a difference. Back to the a difference. Back to the

concentrations, one thing the concentrations, one thing the

report mentioned was East report mentioned was East

report mentioned was East Dumbartonshire which was one area

Dumbartonshire which was one area Dumbartonshire which was one area

Dumbartonshire which was one area that had the least amount of child

that had the least amount of child that had the least amount of child

poverty, a particular problem in poverty, a particular problem in

Glasgow is the intense Glasgow is the intense

Glasgow is the intense concentration of population. Do you

concentration of population. Do you concentration of population. Do you

men -- do you mean intense men -- do you mean intense

men -- do you mean intense concentration of poor people?

concentration of poor people? concentration of poor people?

concentration of poor people? the fact you have an intense Cont -

the fact you have an intense Cont - the fact you have an intense Cont -

- an intense concentration of - an intense concentration of

- an intense concentration of people on low incomes. There is

people on low incomes. There is people on low incomes. There is

also a juxtaposition of very also a juxtaposition of very

also a juxtaposition of very wealthy areas. Glasgow is an

wealthy areas. Glasgow is an wealthy areas. Glasgow is an

extreme example of where the extreme example of where the

extreme example of where the populations are part, so come --

populations are part, so come -- the comprehensive education perhaps

the comprehensive education perhaps the comprehensive education perhaps

not working to everybody's benefit not working to everybody's benefit

not working to everybody's benefit backed that up. There is benefit

backed that up. There is benefit backed that up. There is benefit

backed that up. There is benefit and that. But that is the point, in

and that. But that is the point, in and that. But that is the point, in

terms of doing everybody could. If terms of doing everybody could. If

terms of doing everybody could. If terms of doing everybody could. If

you live in an unemployed get so you live in an unemployed get so

you live in an unemployed get so boring middle-class ghetto, you are

boring middle-class ghetto, you are boring middle-class ghetto, you are

isolating yourself from the rest of isolating yourself from the rest of

isolating yourself from the rest of society. -- and none -- an

society. -- and none -- an unemployed ghetto foreign middle-

unemployed ghetto foreign middle- unemployed ghetto foreign middle-

class ghetto a. Variety is the class ghetto a. Variety is the

Spice of life. Spice of life.

Spice of life. I was curious, When you talked

I was curious, When you talked I was curious, When you talked

about Norway and Denmark, did she about Norway and Denmark, did she

about Norway and Denmark, did she about Norway and Denmark, did she

mean that they did have a larger mean that they did have a larger

mean that they did have a larger problem with child poverty -- did

problem with child poverty -- did problem with child poverty -- did

problem with child poverty -- did you? Did they turn it around or

you? Did they turn it around or you? Did they turn it around or

you? Did they turn it around or have they always not been so bad?

have they always not been so bad? have they always not been so bad?

have had high levels of have had high levels of

have had high levels of unemployment in the past but rather

unemployment in the past but rather unemployment in the past but rather

than fat leading to intense poverty than fat leading to intense poverty

than fat leading to intense poverty because of intense levels of

because of intense levels of because of intense levels of

financial support when they lose financial support when they lose

financial support when they lose their work, people are supported it

their work, people are supported it their work, people are supported it

their work, people are supported it -- they have had. People are able

-- they have had. People are able -- they have had. People are able

-- they have had. People are able to bounce back, so they have not

to bounce back, so they have not tolerated these built up

tolerated these built up tolerated these built up

concentrations of poverty. So you concentrations of poverty. So you

concentrations of poverty. So you think low levels of benefits are

think low levels of benefits are think low levels of benefits are

helpful? Higher levels of financial helpful? Higher levels of financial

helpful? Higher levels of financial support Orok benefit when people

support Orok benefit when people face unemployment, ill-health or

face unemployment, ill-health or face unemployment, ill-health or

disappoint -- or disability. -- disappoint -- or disability. --

disappoint -- or disability. -- forehead benefit. One thing that

forehead benefit. One thing that forehead benefit. One thing that

does not come through are the does not come through are the

does not come through are the does not come through are the

forecast of what is about to happen. forecast of what is about to happen.

forecast of what is about to happen. Families have been protected by a

Families have been protected by a Families have been protected by a

benefit and tax credits, families benefit and tax credits, families

benefit and tax credits, families benefit and tax credits, families

in work and out of work, and that in work and out of work, and that

in work and out of work, and that support is being ripped away almost

support is being ripped away almost support is being ripped away almost

every month. So that is something every month. So that is something

every month. So that is something every month. So that is something

that has to be looked at. And we that has to be looked at. And we

that has to be looked at. And we need to remove the barriers that

need to remove the barriers that need to remove the barriers that

parents face trying to get into parents face trying to get into

work, child care barriers, work, child care barriers,

transport tax, discrimination in transport tax, discrimination in

transport tax, discrimination in the workplace that often means

the workplace that often means the workplace that often means

people who have suffered ill-health people who have suffered ill-health

people who have suffered ill-health cannot take up job opportunities. A

cannot take up job opportunities. A cannot take up job opportunities. A

cannot take up job opportunities. A range of things need to be looked

range of things need to be looked range of things need to be looked

at to remove barriers facing families.

families. families.

families. Do you think we need to make a

Do you think we need to make a Do you think we need to make a

change in society? You talked about change in society? You talked about

change in society? You talked about change in society? You talked about

that film in London very few are at that film in London very few are at

that film in London very few are at the poorest school, your average

the poorest school, your average the poorest school, your average

the poorest school, your average GCSEs are better than in the rest

GCSEs are better than in the rest GCSEs are better than in the rest

of England. And in Finland, thinks of England. And in Finland, thinks

of England. And in Finland, thinks they did with coronary disease, do

they did with coronary disease, do they did with coronary disease, do

we need something like that? we need something like that?

we need something like that? we need something like that?

house to be a big effort because house to be a big effort because

house to be a big effort because house to be a big effort because

for all the money we have put into for all the money we have put into

for all the money we have put into public services... -- there has to

public services... -- there has to public services... -- there has to

public services... -- there has to be. But we have not ended the link

be. But we have not ended the link be. But we have not ended the link

between postcode lottery. There is between postcode lottery. There is

between postcode lottery. There is between postcode lottery. There is

no political will for this. Not at no political will for this. Not at

no political will for this. Not at the moment, and public opinion

the moment, and public opinion the moment, and public opinion

needs to drive politicians into that.

that. that.

Are banking very much for that. Are banking very much for that.

Are banking very much for that. Tomorrow's front pages, the full

Tomorrow's front pages, the full Tomorrow's front pages, the full

extent of the waiting times scandal, extent of the waiting times scandal,

extent of the waiting times scandal, a report that will be published

a report that will be published a report that will be published

tomorrow. The Independent. This is tomorrow. The Independent. This is