19/02/2013 Newsnight Scotland

time now, northern Europe is where time now, northern Europe is where

Tonight, the man saddled with Tonight, the man saddled with

Tonight, the man saddled with managing the horsemeat scandal says

managing the horsemeat scandal says managing the horsemeat scandal says

managing the horsemeat scandal says it could be a watershed moment on

it could be a watershed moment on it could be a watershed moment on

it could be a watershed moment on how we think about food. Should it

how we think about food. Should it how we think about food. Should it

not also include our appetite for not also include our appetite for

not also include our appetite for meat? will consumers ever have

confidence again? confidence again?

confidence again? Good evening. Now, here's an odd

Good evening. Now, here's an odd Good evening. Now, here's an odd

thing. Amid the scandal of thing. Amid the scandal of

horsemeat masquerading as beef, horsemeat masquerading as beef,

horsemeat masquerading as beef, there's actually been an increase

there's actually been an increase there's actually been an increase

in sales of Scotch-labelled meat in sales of Scotch-labelled meat

products. An early indication products. An early indication

products. An early indication perhaps that we are indeed as

perhaps that we are indeed as Agriculture Secretary Richard

Agriculture Secretary Richard Lochhead says rethinking our

Lochhead says rethinking our Lochhead says rethinking our

relationship with food. If so, it relationship with food. If so, it

relationship with food. If so, it also seems to indicate that we're

also seems to indicate that we're also seems to indicate that we're

sticking with meat, though maybe sticking with meat, though maybe

sticking with meat, though maybe not the processed stuff. In a

not the processed stuff. In a not the processed stuff. In a

moment, we'll be discussing that moment, we'll be discussing that

moment, we'll be discussing that and how the food industry recovers

and how the food industry recovers and how the food industry recovers

and how the food industry recovers from this scandal. It won't be easy.

from this scandal. It won't be easy. from this scandal. It won't be easy.

The Food Standards Agency has just The Food Standards Agency has just

announced more tests amid announced more tests amid

announced more tests amid suspicions things like stock cubes

suspicions things like stock cubes suspicions things like stock cubes

and dripping could be affected. and dripping could be affected.

Here's something Steven Godden With each passing day, it seems

With each passing day, it seems another European country becomes

another European country becomes another European country becomes

caught up in the horsemeat scandal. caught up in the horsemeat scandal.

caught up in the horsemeat scandal. caught up in the horsemeat scandal.

Italy and Spain are the latest to Italy and Spain are the latest to

Italy and Spain are the latest to be affected. Tests have revealed

be affected. Tests have revealed be affected. Tests have revealed

be affected. Tests have revealed the presence of four CNH in this

the presence of four CNH in this the presence of four CNH in this

late meals. The world's biggest late meals. The world's biggest

late meals. The world's biggest food producer has now dropped a

food producer has now dropped a food producer has now dropped a

German supplier. As the scandal German supplier. As the scandal

German supplier. As the scandal rumbles on, the message to the

rumbles on, the message to the rumbles on, the message to the

Scottish Parliament is set so far Scottish Parliament is set so far

Scottish Parliament is set so far Scotland has escaped the worst.

Scotland has escaped the worst. Scotland has escaped the worst.

is important to note that in is important to note that in

is important to note that in Scotland there is no slaughtering

Scotland there is no slaughtering Scotland there is no slaughtering

of horses for human consumption and of horses for human consumption and

of horses for human consumption and of horses for human consumption and

no money factor of them has been no money factor of them has been

no money factor of them has been implicated in the scandal. All of

implicated in the scandal. All of implicated in the scandal. All of

the evidence points... We do not the evidence points... We do not

the evidence points... We do not have the complex sometimes murky

have the complex sometimes murky have the complex sometimes murky

web of supply chains stretching web of supply chains stretching

web of supply chains stretching across Europe. Questioned about the

across Europe. Questioned about the across Europe. Questioned about the

number of food inspectors being number of food inspectors being

number of food inspectors being halved since 2008, the Cabinet

halved since 2008, the Cabinet halved since 2008, the Cabinet

Secretary said the drop had been Secretary said the drop had been

Secretary said the drop had been caused by changes to the regulation.

caused by changes to the regulation. caused by changes to the regulation.

On the topic of forcemeat being On the topic of forcemeat being

On the topic of forcemeat being served in schools and hospitals,

served in schools and hospitals, served in schools and hospitals,

served in schools and hospitals, tests have been done and show no

tests have been done and show no tests have been done and show no

tests have been done and show no signs of that happening. It was a

signs of that happening. It was a signs of that happening. It was a

pretty upbeat summary. The scandal pretty upbeat summary. The scandal

pretty upbeat summary. The scandal has undermined consumer trust. But

has undermined consumer trust. But has undermined consumer trust. But

has undermined consumer trust. But it may be a watershed moment in how

it may be a watershed moment in how it may be a watershed moment in how

people think about food and that people think about food and that

people think about food and that people think about food and that

could end up being a good thing. could end up being a good thing.

could end up being a good thing. could end up being a good thing.

There is a need for every step of There is a need for every step of

There is a need for every step of the food chain to take

the food chain to take the food chain to take

responsibility for the food it responsibility for the food it

responsibility for the food it produces and to ensure consumers

produces and to ensure consumers produces and to ensure consumers

can have total confidence that what can have total confidence that what

can have total confidence that what can have total confidence that what

can have total confidence that what they buy it is what it says on the

they buy it is what it says on the they buy it is what it says on the

label. And yet as Labour pointed label. And yet as Labour pointed

label. And yet as Labour pointed label. And yet as Labour pointed

out Scots are just as likely to out Scots are just as likely to

out Scots are just as likely to have eaten contaminated meat as

have eaten contaminated meat as have eaten contaminated meat as

have eaten contaminated meat as anyone else in the UK, a situation

anyone else in the UK, a situation anyone else in the UK, a situation

that has implications for consumers, that has implications for consumers,

that has implications for consumers, retailers and retailers. In June,

retailers and retailers. In June, retailers and retailers. In June,

retailers and retailers. In June, the pens for the find of the

the pens for the find of the the pens for the find of the

nation's finest livestock for the nation's finest livestock for the

nation's finest livestock for the Royal Highland Show. As far as

Royal Highland Show. As far as Royal Highland Show. As far as

Scotland is concerned, this could Scotland is concerned, this could

Scotland is concerned, this could be considered the epicentre of

be considered the epicentre of be considered the epicentre of

concern and interest about the concern and interest about the

concern and interest about the horse meets Gandalf as those who

horse meets Gandalf as those who base themselves here year-round

base themselves here year-round consider his long-term implications

consider his long-term implications consider his long-term implications

-- forcemeat scandal. This man's -- forcemeat scandal. This man's

-- forcemeat scandal. This man's job is to build the industry's

job is to build the industry's reputation. He believes consumer

reputation. He believes consumer reputation. He believes consumer

confidence has been shaken but not confidence has been shaken but not

confidence has been shaken but not confidence has been shaken but not

to the same degree as the BSE to the same degree as the BSE

to the same degree as the BSE scandal that centred on food safety.

scandal that centred on food safety. scandal that centred on food safety.

scandal that centred on food safety. He does think it could prompt a

He does think it could prompt a He does think it could prompt a

rethink however. We have a culture rethink however. We have a culture

rethink however. We have a culture rethink however. We have a culture

of cheap food despite the fact food of cheap food despite the fact food

of cheap food despite the fact food products are more expensive to

products are more expensive to products are more expensive to

products are more expensive to produce we have had a driving up of

produce we have had a driving up of produce we have had a driving up of

costs. Food chains have got longer costs. Food chains have got longer

costs. Food chains have got longer costs. Food chains have got longer

and we have got to the point where and we have got to the point where

and we have got to the point where an average ready meal might go

an average ready meal might go through several different countries

through several different countries through several different countries

through several different countries before it ends up on the shelf. We

before it ends up on the shelf. We before it ends up on the shelf. We

before it ends up on the shelf. We have to change our food culture to

have to change our food culture to have to change our food culture to

have to change our food culture to have to change our food culture to

make sure we do not end up with the make sure we do not end up with the

make sure we do not end up with the kind of scandal we have had

kind of scandal we have had kind of scandal we have had

recently. The industry has been recently. The industry has been

recently. The industry has been recently. The industry has been

quick to report the rise in sales quick to report the rise in sales

quick to report the rise in sales of local butchers as a direct

of local butchers as a direct of local butchers as a direct

consequence of the scandal. 900,000 consequence of the scandal. 900,000

households have stopped buying households have stopped buying

households have stopped buying frozen burgers. The flipside is one

frozen burgers. The flipside is one frozen burgers. The flipside is one

for 6 million households have been for 6 million households have been

for 6 million households have been buying them. What about the huge

buying them. What about the huge buying them. What about the huge

number of people for whom price number of people for whom price

number of people for whom price determines what ends up in the

determines what ends up in the determines what ends up in the

shopping basket? You can get good shopping basket? You can get good

shopping basket? You can get good quality processed foods using local

quality processed foods using local quality processed foods using local

quality processed foods using local ingredients and it does not have to

ingredients and it does not have to ingredients and it does not have to

ingredients and it does not have to cost the earth. If a consumer is

cost the earth. If a consumer is cost the earth. If a consumer is

cost the earth. If a consumer is going to buy 12 hamburgers for one

going to buy 12 hamburgers for one going to buy 12 hamburgers for one

going to buy 12 hamburgers for one have 50, they have got to be

have 50, they have got to be have 50, they have got to be

realistic about the quality of realistic about the quality of

realistic about the quality of ingredients -- 12 hamburgers for

ingredients -- 12 hamburgers for ingredients -- 12 hamburgers for

ingredients -- 12 hamburgers for �1.50. If we are going to play a

�1.50. If we are going to play a �1.50. If we are going to play a

�1.50. If we are going to play a low price, we have to accept you

low price, we have to accept you low price, we have to accept you

will not get the best ingredients. will not get the best ingredients.

will not get the best ingredients. Not so long ago, the traditional

Not so long ago, the traditional Not so long ago, the traditional

Sunday roast was considered a rare Sunday roast was considered a rare

luxury. Expectations are now luxury. Expectations are now

altogether different but the altogether different but the

altogether different but the scandal has placed the relationship

scandal has placed the relationship scandal has placed the relationship

scandal has placed the relationship with meat that many of us took for

with meat that many of us took for with meat that many of us took for

granted firmly under the microscope. granted firmly under the microscope.

granted firmly under the microscope. Well, I'm joined now from Edinburgh

Well, I'm joined now from Edinburgh Well, I'm joined now from Edinburgh

by Mike Small, who helped develop by Mike Small, who helped develop

by Mike Small, who helped develop the Fife Diet, an eating experiment

the Fife Diet, an eating experiment encouraging local production and

encouraging local production and encouraging local production and

consumption. Also in Edinburgh is consumption. Also in Edinburgh is

consumption. Also in Edinburgh is Martin Raymond of Cloudline PR who

Martin Raymond of Cloudline PR who Martin Raymond of Cloudline PR who

was formerly head of public affairs was formerly head of public affairs

was formerly head of public affairs at the Health Education Board for

at the Health Education Board for at the Health Education Board for

Scotland. And in Aberdeen is David Scotland. And in Aberdeen is David

Scotland. And in Aberdeen is David Scotland. And in Aberdeen is David

Lamb, head of food and drink at Lamb, head of food and drink at

Scotland's Agricultural College. Scotland's Agricultural College.

Scotland's Agricultural College. Scotland's Agricultural College.

David, what do you think is going David, what do you think is going

David, what do you think is going David, what do you think is going

on? At one level, clearly this is on? At one level, clearly this is

corruption, people have been corruption, people have been

corruption, people have been corruption, people have been

breaking the law. But it seems of breaking the law. But it seems of

breaking the law. But it seems of such a scale... There must have

such a scale... There must have such a scale... There must have

such a scale... There must have been a context in which no one had

been a context in which no one had been a context in which no one had

an interest in asking any difficult an interest in asking any difficult

an interest in asking any difficult questions. I think it is about

questions. I think it is about asking questions, consumers and

asking questions, consumers and asking questions, consumers and

retailers are. Maybe there is a retailers are. Maybe there is a

retailers are. Maybe there is a retailers are. Maybe there is a

lack of scrutiny put into what is lack of scrutiny put into what is

lack of scrutiny put into what is lack of scrutiny put into what is

going into our food in some areas going into our food in some areas

going into our food in some areas and sectors. A lot of pressure

and sectors. A lot of pressure particularly on price and

particularly on price and particularly on price and

convenience. It is a choice whether convenience. It is a choice whether

convenience. It is a choice whether you want choice and convenience and

you want choice and convenience and you want choice and convenience and

price or whether you want the price or whether you want the

price or whether you want the assurance of way your food comes

assurance of way your food comes assurance of way your food comes

assurance of way your food comes from. Why do you think it has not

from. Why do you think it has not from. Why do you think it has not

from. Why do you think it has not been there? A month ago if you had

been there? A month ago if you had been there? A month ago if you had

suggested to someone the burger suggested to someone the burger

suggested to someone the burger they were buying in a supermarket...

they were buying in a supermarket... they were buying in a supermarket...

Its authenticity of beef would not Its authenticity of beef would not

Its authenticity of beef would not Its authenticity of beef would not

have been tested since it left a have been tested since it left a

have been tested since it left a meat plant in Romania. Everything

meat plant in Romania. Everything meat plant in Romania. Everything

meat plant in Romania. Everything had been taken on trust. I think

had been taken on trust. I think had been taken on trust. I think

they would probably not have they would probably not have

they would probably not have believed you. That is right. The

believed you. That is right. The believed you. That is right. The

believed you. That is right. The point is that it was taken on trust

point is that it was taken on trust point is that it was taken on trust

and some people have abused that and some people have abused that

and some people have abused that trust. Not the majority of

trust. Not the majority of processors and abattoirs and

processors and abattoirs and processors and abattoirs and

certainly not through the assurance certainly not through the assurance

certainly not through the assurance systems, but people will buy pass

systems, but people will buy pass systems, but people will buy pass

systems, but people will buy pass it to get a cheaper product. I am

it to get a cheaper product. I am it to get a cheaper product. I am

certain it has happened before. certain it has happened before.

certain it has happened before. Maybe not with horsemeat but

Maybe not with horsemeat but bypassing people's Trust and

bypassing people's Trust and bypassing people's Trust and

getting the cheaper option. Mike, getting the cheaper option. Mike,

getting the cheaper option. Mike, getting the cheaper option. Mike,

it is an issue of trust. You hope it is an issue of trust. You hope

it is an issue of trust. You hope it is an issue of trust. You hope

we do not start trusting the big we do not start trusting the big

we do not start trusting the big retailers again. The very last

retailers again. The very last retailers again. The very last

retailers again. The very last thing we need to do is re-establish

thing we need to do is re-establish thing we need to do is re-establish

trust in the food system. People trust in the food system. People

trust in the food system. People are getting a unique insight into

are getting a unique insight into are getting a unique insight into

are getting a unique insight into what is going on. It is important

what is going on. It is important what is going on. It is important

what is going on. It is important to realise this is not the food

to realise this is not the food to realise this is not the food

to realise this is not the food system in crisis, it is a food

system in crisis, it is a food system in crisis, it is a food

system reveals. This is essentially system reveals. This is essentially

system reveals. This is essentially what happens if you give over

what happens if you give over what happens if you give over

entire control of your food culture entire control of your food culture

entire control of your food culture to three or four very large

to three or four very large corporations. What are you

corporations. What are you corporations. What are you

suggesting? There has been a suggesting? There has been a

suggesting? There has been a breakdown of regulation, as David

breakdown of regulation, as David breakdown of regulation, as David

seems to be saying or something seems to be saying or something

more profound? Certainly a more profound? Certainly a

more profound? Certainly a breakdown in regulation. We have

breakdown in regulation. We have breakdown in regulation. We have

breakdown in regulation. We have seen this is the light touch that

seen this is the light touch that seen this is the light touch that

brought you Leveson and the banking brought you Leveson and the banking

brought you Leveson and the banking crisis and is now feeding people

crisis and is now feeding people crisis and is now feeding people

crisis and is now feeding people horses. This is 30 years of let us

horses. This is 30 years of let us horses. This is 30 years of let us

horses. This is 30 years of let us slash red tape. But it is a

slash red tape. But it is a wholesale corporate capture that

wholesale corporate capture that wholesale corporate capture that

This is the same language we heard This is the same language we heard

This is the same language we heard This is the same language we heard

in the BSE crisis in the 1990s. It in the BSE crisis in the 1990s. It

in the BSE crisis in the 1990s. It in the BSE crisis in the 1990s. It

seems to be a systemic problem with seems to be a systemic problem with

the relationships between the relationships between

the relationships between government and the food industry.

government and the food industry. government and the food industry.

government and the food industry. think we have got to be careful

think we have got to be careful think we have got to be careful

about where this culture is. The about where this culture is. The

about where this culture is. The about where this culture is. The

reaction to the BSE crisis made us reaction to the BSE crisis made us

reaction to the BSE crisis made us re-evaluate where our food comes

re-evaluate where our food comes re-evaluate where our food comes

re-evaluate where our food comes from and what systems we put in

from and what systems we put in from and what systems we put in

from and what systems we put in place. It must be said that in

place. It must be said that in place. It must be said that in

Scotland, in the majority of cases, Scotland, in the majority of cases,

Scotland, in the majority of cases, we are very careful about the

we are very careful about the we are very careful about the

assurance system and the messages assurance system and the messages

assurance system and the messages passed to the consumer and where

passed to the consumer and where passed to the consumer and where

meat comes from. Our traceability is good.

is good. is good.

But that is talking about Scottish But that is talking about Scottish

But that is talking about Scottish producers. That makes no difference

producers. That makes no difference producers. That makes no difference

to the average Scottish Consumer. to the average Scottish Consumer.

to the average Scottish Consumer. Burgers they Pickup are just as

Burgers they Pickup are just as Burgers they Pickup are just as

liable to contain horsemeat as in liable to contain horsemeat as in

liable to contain horsemeat as in England. There is a point made

England. There is a point made England. There is a point made

there, about where people are there, about where people are

there, about where people are looking. People looked during the

looking. People looked during the looking. People looked during the

BSE crisis. We have seen the BSE crisis. We have seen the

BSE crisis. We have seen the evidence that people are looking

evidence that people are looking evidence that people are looking

evidence that people are looking again to see where it comes from.

again to see where it comes from. again to see where it comes from.

Looking to see where the supply Looking to see where the supply

chain is shorter. chain is shorter.

chain is shorter. chain is shorter.

What do you do if you are the What do you do if you are the

What do you do if you are the supermarkets or your company is in

supermarkets or your company is in supermarkets or your company is in

the situation now? You do the situation now? You do

the situation now? You do essentially what they have done.

essentially what they have done. essentially what they have done.

essentially what they have done. Most of the big companies have done

Most of the big companies have done Most of the big companies have done

Most of the big companies have done the right thing. There has been a

the right thing. There has been a the right thing. There has been a

rush to confess their sins. There rush to confess their sins. There

rush to confess their sins. There have been a fall apologies,

have been a fall apologies, have been a fall apologies,

newspaper articles and adverts to newspaper articles and adverts to

newspaper articles and adverts to apologise. In straight PR terms,

apologise. In straight PR terms, apologise. In straight PR terms,

they have been quite clever because they have been quite clever because

they have been quite clever because a lot of retailers, particularly

a lot of retailers, particularly a lot of retailers, particularly

the big ones, have tried to the big ones, have tried to

the big ones, have tried to position themselves as the same

position themselves as the same position themselves as the same

sort of victims as consumers. Which sort of victims as consumers. Which

sort of victims as consumers. Which is not entirely honest and

straightforward. straightforward.

straightforward. straightforward.

I think a lot of people would say, I think a lot of people would say,

I think a lot of people would say, I think a lot of people would say,

or I sort of assumed it that or I sort of assumed it that

or I sort of assumed it that Tesco's checked what is in their

Tesco's checked what is in their Tesco's checked what is in their

burgers. They are the people who burgers. They are the people who

burgers. They are the people who have the connection with the

have the connection with the have the connection with the

consumer so ultimately they are consumer so ultimately they are

consumer so ultimately they are responsible. What you will see from

responsible. What you will see from responsible. What you will see from

responsible. What you will see from now on, if done properly, it is

now on, if done properly, it is now on, if done properly, it is

retailers, suppliers and big brands retailers, suppliers and big brands

retailers, suppliers and big brands putting huge assurances in place

putting huge assurances in place putting huge assurances in place

probably at the cost of the probably at the cost of the

probably at the cost of the suppliers rather than their own

suppliers rather than their own suppliers rather than their own

costs. Huge insurance is in place costs. Huge insurance is in place

costs. Huge insurance is in place costs. Huge insurance is in place

and make much of the fact that they and make much of the fact that they

and make much of the fact that they and make much of the fact that they

have done that. I think most brands have done that. I think most brands

have done that. I think most brands will survive quite well. They had

will survive quite well. They had will survive quite well. They had

been through crisis before. The been through crisis before. The

been through crisis before. The been through crisis before. The

kind of issue, and I have been on kind of issue, and I have been on

kind of issue, and I have been on kind of issue, and I have been on

both sides of this offence as a both sides of this offence as a

both sides of this offence as a marketing person, is that you have

marketing person, is that you have marketing person, is that you have

to understand why these big three to understand why these big three

to understand why these big three brands have survived for so long.

brands have survived for so long. brands have survived for so long.

brands have survived for so long. They survive Allsop -- all kinds of

They survive Allsop -- all kinds of They survive Allsop -- all kinds of

crisis. If you look at companies crisis. If you look at companies

crisis. If you look at companies crisis. If you look at companies

like Leslie, have any crisis is how like Leslie, have any crisis is how

like Leslie, have any crisis is how like Leslie, have any crisis is how

they dealt with? One of the reasons they dealt with? One of the reasons

they dealt with? One of the reasons they have survived his they have

they have survived his they have they have survived his they have

they have survived his they have the FIS a as a mouthpiece for

the FIS a as a mouthpiece for the FIS a as a mouthpiece for

the FIS a as a mouthpiece for industry. There needs to be a more

industry. There needs to be a more industry. There needs to be a more

critical food culture here for. critical food culture here for.

critical food culture here for. critical food culture here for.

This is system failure. It is not This is system failure. It is not

This is system failure. It is not one brand, one company or one

one brand, one company or one one brand, one company or one

country. What would you suggest as country. What would you suggest as

country. What would you suggest as an alternative? You have been

an alternative? You have been an alternative? You have been

an alternative? You have been involved in the Fife Diet, and that

involved in the Fife Diet, and that involved in the Fife Diet, and that

involved in the Fife Diet, and that is fine. But that will really only

is fine. But that will really only is fine. But that will really only

is fine. But that will really only ever be at the margins. Most people

ever be at the margins. Most people ever be at the margins. Most people

will shop at supermarkets so unless will shop at supermarkets so unless

will shop at supermarkets so unless the regulation issue is addressed,

the regulation issue is addressed, the regulation issue is addressed,

everything else it might help which everything else it might help which

everything else it might help which -- it might promote small producers,

-- it might promote small producers, -- it might promote small producers,

-- it might promote small producers, but it is not relevant. What is not

but it is not relevant. What is not relevant? Talking about going

relevant? Talking about going relevant? Talking about going

small-scale and heated local. small-scale and heated local.

small-scale and heated local. you have allowed supermarkets to

you have allowed supermarkets to you have allowed supermarkets to

have 97% of retell control, though have 97% of retell control, though

have 97% of retell control, though that is a society wide decision

that is a society wide decision that is a society wide decision

that that government has allowed that that government has allowed

that that government has allowed the corporations to do.

the corporations to do. the corporations to do.

consumers like it. Well, they might consumers like it. Well, they might

consumers like it. Well, they might consumers like it. Well, they might

not like a horse and donkey in not like a horse and donkey in

not like a horse and donkey in not like a horse and donkey in

their food. So it might be shifting their food. So it might be shifting

their food. So it might be shifting their food. So it might be shifting

tides. What I use suggesting as an tides. What I use suggesting as an

tides. What I use suggesting as an alternative? You can't have Tesco

alternative? You can't have Tesco having their responsibility for

having their responsibility for having their responsibility for

this crisis. That is not credible. this crisis. That is not credible.

this crisis. That is not credible. They had a statement shortly after

They had a statement shortly after They had a statement shortly after

They had a statement shortly after say we will look into this ad tell

say we will look into this ad tell say we will look into this ad tell

you what happened. Why don't we you what happened. Why don't we

you what happened. Why don't we you what happened. Why don't we

look into this and tell them what look into this and tell them what

look into this and tell them what happened. This is all back-to-front.

happened. This is all back-to-front. happened. This is all back-to-front.

Bodies like Tesco who are Bodies like Tesco who are

Bodies like Tesco who are apparently not responsible, this is

extraordinary. Something extraordinary. Something

extraordinary. Something extraordinary. Something

fundamental, do we know what is in fundamental, do we know what is in

fundamental, do we know what is in fundamental, do we know what is in

our food, and so, though. And we our food, and so, though. And we

our food, and so, though. And we our food, and so, though. And we

are five or six weeks into this. are five or six weeks into this.

are five or six weeks into this. David Lambert, what about, don't

David Lambert, what about, don't David Lambert, what about, don't

eat meat? I think there are eat meat? I think there are

eat meat? I think there are different levels of responses. Mike

different levels of responses. Mike different levels of responses. Mike

is talking about local levels. is talking about local levels.

is talking about local levels. There are also responses like going

There are also responses like going There are also responses like going

There are also responses like going to a supermarket and looking for a

to a supermarket and looking for a to a supermarket and looking for a

quality assured system. They are quality assured system. They are

quality assured system. They are called that for a reason. Isn't

called that for a reason. Isn't called that for a reason. Isn't

there a fundamental problem here? I there a fundamental problem here? I

there a fundamental problem here? I was looking at statistics that said

was looking at statistics that said was looking at statistics that said

was looking at statistics that said over the last 30 to 40 years, we

over the last 30 to 40 years, we over the last 30 to 40 years, we

have cut by half purchases of have cut by half purchases of

butcher's meat, but convenience butcher's meat, but convenience

butcher's meat, but convenience butcher's meat, but convenience

meat and Food has gone up by more meat and Food has gone up by more

meat and Food has gone up by more than sixfold. It is these things

than sixfold. It is these things than sixfold. It is these things

than sixfold. It is these things where you put in the cheapest cuts

where you put in the cheapest cuts where you put in the cheapest cuts

where you put in the cheapest cuts of meat, it is a change in society

of meat, it is a change in society of meat, it is a change in society

of meat, it is a change in society leading to this. That is right. It

leading to this. That is right. It leading to this. That is right. It

leading to this. That is right. It has to be a cultural change. We

has to be a cultural change. We has to be a cultural change. We

have moved marginally away from have moved marginally away from

have moved marginally away from high end the convenience food back

high end the convenience food back high end the convenience food back

to cooking and cooking culture and to cooking and cooking culture and

to cooking and cooking culture and demanding a bit more, but the

demanding a bit more, but the demanding a bit more, but the

systemic change has to continue. systemic change has to continue.

systemic change has to continue. systemic change has to continue.

There is a point about whether you There is a point about whether you

There is a point about whether you know weigh your food comes from.

know weigh your food comes from. know weigh your food comes from.

know weigh your food comes from. When you are eating out, how often

When you are eating out, how often When you are eating out, how often

When you are eating out, how often do you asked a question where food

do you asked a question where food do you asked a question where food

do you asked a question where food comes from? How do you deal with

comes from? How do you deal with comes from? How do you deal with

comes from? How do you deal with that? It seems that the problem is,

that? It seems that the problem is, that? It seems that the problem is,

firstly people will continue eating firstly people will continue eating

from supermarkets. The vast from supermarkets. The vast

from supermarkets. The vast majority will buy from supermarkets.

majority will buy from supermarkets. majority will buy from supermarkets.

Secondly, they live the types of Secondly, they live the types of

Secondly, they live the types of Secondly, they live the types of

lives where they need to save money lives where they need to save money

lives where they need to save money lives where they need to save money

and are under pressure of time and and are under pressure of time and

and are under pressure of time and it is easier to buy convenience

it is easier to buy convenience it is easier to buy convenience

food which is precisely things open food which is precisely things open

food which is precisely things open to this kind of adultery.

to this kind of adultery. to this kind of adultery.

Absolutely. The issue here is the Absolutely. The issue here is the

relationship between supply and relationship between supply and

relationship between supply and relationship between supply and

demand. I don't think you can point demand. I don't think you can point

demand. I don't think you can point demand. I don't think you can point

the finger for or all of the the finger for or all of the

the finger for or all of the problems at the supermarkets and

problems at the supermarkets and retailers because they are

retailers because they are supplying something that consumers

supplying something that consumers supplying something that consumers

want. Consumers are not been forced want. Consumers are not been forced

want. Consumers are not been forced want. Consumers are not been forced

at gunpoint. What you have seen is at gunpoint. What you have seen is

at gunpoint. What you have seen is at gunpoint. What you have seen is

much more of a variety in the way much more of a variety in the way

much more of a variety in the way that people make choices about the

that people make choices about the that people make choices about the

food they eat. Projects like the food they eat. Projects like the

food they eat. Projects like the Fife Diet have been very successful.

Fife Diet have been very successful. Fife Diet have been very successful.

Fife Diet have been very successful. You see a lot of farm shops

You see a lot of farm shops You see a lot of farm shops

offering the picture of the very offering the picture of the very

offering the picture of the very offering the picture of the very

cow that has ended up on that if cow that has ended up on that if

cow that has ended up on that if refrigerated slab in the shop.

refrigerated slab in the shop. refrigerated slab in the shop.

These things are trends in society. These things are trends in society.

These things are trends in society. Lifestyle changes that people make.

Lifestyle changes that people make. Lifestyle changes that people make.

Lifestyle changes that people make. It is the way they live their lives

It is the way they live their lives It is the way they live their lives

It is the way they live their lives so they are interested. That is a

so they are interested. That is a so they are interested. That is a

so they are interested. That is a growing thing. 20 years ago when I

growing thing. 20 years ago when I started Health Communication,

started Health Communication, started Health Communication,

people were not interested. That is people were not interested. That is

people were not interested. That is people were not interested. That is

a real change. If you look at the a real change. If you look at the

a real change. If you look at the way fruit and vegetables are

way fruit and vegetables are way fruit and vegetables are

consumed and presented, these are consumed and presented, these are

consumed and presented, these are shifts and changes. They have been

shifts and changes. They have been shifts and changes. They have been

some very positive changes. You do some very positive changes. You do

some very positive changes. You do some very positive changes. You do

have to look at consumers and that have to look at consumers and that

have to look at consumers and that is where brands are retailers have

is where brands are retailers have is where brands are retailers have

been successful. They have listened been successful. They have listened

been successful. They have listened been successful. They have listened

to what consumers are after an them to what consumers are after an them

to what consumers are after an them to what consumers are after an them

to supply them. That is how they to supply them. That is how they

to supply them. That is how they will get out of this crisis.

will get out of this crisis. will get out of this crisis.

Consumer power, we have seen that Consumer power, we have seen that

Consumer power, we have seen that in things like Starbucks, his

in things like Starbucks, his in things like Starbucks, his

increasingly powerful so they may increasingly powerful so they may

increasingly powerful so they may increasingly powerful so they may

have to wake up and pay attention. have to wake up and pay attention.

have to wake up and pay attention. Absolutely. There was a survey did

Absolutely. There was a survey did Absolutely. There was a survey did

Absolutely. There was a survey did last year that showed 62% of people

last year that showed 62% of people last year that showed 62% of people

last year that showed 62% of people what access to local fruit, but you

what access to local fruit, but you what access to local fruit, but you

what access to local fruit, but you can't have that if there is a

can't have that if there is a stranglehold of retail by

stranglehold of retail by stranglehold of retail by

supermarkets. When you say it is supermarkets. When you say it is

supermarkets. When you say it is supermarkets. When you say it is

about working at the margins, it is about working at the margins, it is

about working at the margins, it is really not. There is an opportunity

really not. There is an opportunity really not. There is an opportunity

really not. There is an opportunity arises for a new Scottish FAS a or

arises for a new Scottish FAS a or arises for a new Scottish FAS a or

arises for a new Scottish FAS a or body similar and I hope that to be

body similar and I hope that to be body similar and I hope that to be

a radically different system that the UK.

the UK. the UK.

A quick look at tomorrow's front A quick look at tomorrow's front

A quick look at tomorrow's front pages started with the Scotsman.

pages started with the Scotsman. pages started with the Scotsman.

Scotland to lose out of �250 Scotland to lose out of �250

million of EU cash. million of EU cash.

million of EU cash. The Scottish Daily Mail says

The Scottish Daily Mail says landmark study wads gender-bending

landmark study wads gender-bending landmark study wads gender-bending

landmark study wads gender-bending chemicals leaked to a huge range of

chemicals leaked to a huge range of chemicals leaked to a huge range of

chemicals leaked to a huge range of diseases. That is all we have time