16/04/2013 Newsnight Scotland

devastated by yesterday's attacks. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: Are

universal benefits any longer affordable or desirable?

Alex Salmond says Scotland is a "something for something" society.

That's a dig at his Labour opponent Johann Lamont, who's questioned

universal benefits like free bus passes and prescriptions. Which of

them is right? Good evening. Alex Salmond tells the

STUC that universal benefits are safe with him. The Scottish

Parliament debates, and votes in favour of the same idea. You may

think that's that - but the future of welfare and benefits remains

highly contentious. In a moment we'll hear from the politicians, but

People in Scotland enjoy the kind of benefits that many others in the

rest of the UK do not get. Free prescriptions, free education, free

eye tests and free care and bus travel for the elderly. Of course

they are not actually free, they need to be funded. By the taxpayer.

Addressing Scotland's union leaders in Perth today, Alex Salmond

restated his government's commitment to universal benefits. Benefits like

free personal care for the elderly, and the reassurance that gets people

but they will not be exposed in the infirmity, these are not free goods

in the sense that these people do not contribute. People have

contributed and young people will contribute. That is part of a

something for something society. Johanne Lamont ignited the debate.

Alex Salmond is quick to point out to the high levels of welfare in

Scandinavia, but those universal benefits are paid for by high levels

of taxation. Scotland cannot be the only something for something country

in the world. SNP ministers branded the exercise cuts commission, but

Johann Lamont's intervention was welcomed at the time by the former

head of the public spending watchdog. The affordability has to

be questioned, and every pound that goes on free services for bus passes

for well of older people is �1 that Today in the Scottish Parliament,

MSP is again clashed on the issue of universal services.

It is presented as a golden principle but has never been

breached. And only the SNP can protect it. But other parties

support universal services in many areas including the NHS, schools and

many other areas. We have to target resources carefully. We repeat our

request once again to the Scottish Government, particularly in summing

up, while why were they not give us the data to have the debate? This

debate of universal versus targeted, good versus evil, is

simply a huge diversionary target four tactic from what is going on,

which is the hard truth about our ageing population. Despite the

criticism, Parliament's has backed the policy. The result of the vote

and motion in the name of John Swinney is yes, 62, no, 48. But amid

the outcry, are people now expecting more clarity on the future of the

services? One of the problems Johann Lamont faces is that having raised

the possibility of charging for some of these iconic Lee free public

services without going into any details of what she has in mind, she

has enabled the SNP to paint the most lyric possible picture of what

she might have in mind. I think in terms of public reaction, that is

what is important. The idea of free universal services for all is not as

popular as the SNP seem to think. Only 20% of people were found to

necessarily believe that no students at all should be paying tuition

fees. With UK welfare reform is kicking in, the SNP is keener than

ever to protect Scots from it describes as damaging cuts, pitting

hard-pressed families. But is that a vote winner? The SNP has been

persuading the argument that you would not have to have things like

the bedroom taxed, if Scotland were to be independent. So far there is

no sign in the opinion polls but that argument has moved support from

independence at all. With the referendum not happening

until next September, it may be some time before we get detailed

policies. In the meantime, the debate over who gets what and how

much it costs continues. I'm joined now from Edinburgh by

Labour's Malcolm Chisholm, and by Conservative finance spokesman Gavin

Brown. Here in Glasgow is the SNP's

Christine Grahame. Malcolm Chisholm, do you think

Johann Lamont was right to raise this issue of Scotland becoming a

something for nothing country, and to suggest that some of the

universal benefits which are there at the moment should be at least

reviewed? She was talking about the SNP's wish to match Scandinavia, but

the reality is that this is a false distinction. We have always had a

mixture of universal and targeted services. I don't think Labour needs

lectures on universal services. We set up the post-war welfare state.

But Johann Lamont was questioning these. Of course we should be

debating and discussing whether these need to be modified. We are

merely following the advice of the two commissions that John Swinney

himself set up, and having a discussion about it. We have not

come to any conclusions. But it is quite dishonest for the SNP to say

that they support universalism and we support targeted services. When I

was Minister for Housing, every older person got free central

heating. Now it is means tested. I got a letter today saying it is

going to be even more severely means tested. So the Scottish Government

targets services when it wants to, and has universal services when it

wants to. So we need to sit down, have a sensible discussion, and stop

regarding the issue as a political football and a referendum football.

Let me test you with a couple of the questions that Johann Lamont raised.

This is from the speech. What is progressive about the chief

executive on �100,000 a year not paying for his or her prescription?

There is a debate about prescription charges. Where in that debate would

you be? Nobody is questioning that the NHS should be universal, but

there has always been certain parts... So do you support

reintroducing them? You have to look at it within the context of the

financial situation. Of course I support free prescription charges,

but we are going to have very hard financial circumstances over the

next decade. This again is not me, this is Johann

Lamont. What is progressive about judges not paying tuition fees for

their children, when many unemployed people cannot find college places?

think she was pointing to a serious issue, but if the result of that is

that problem people, less well off people, are severely penalised, then

there is a real policy choice and Let's try one more question. What

is progressive about a Chief Executive on �100,000 per year?

When for example, 80,000 college places have disappeared? Some

people just fall into the position where they would not be earning

enough money and would have to pay for prescription charges. But in

fact on the evidence of the committee, just 5% of people pay

for prescriptions and systems for people with certain diseases could

not be extended. The evidence was it was a waste of time doing this

5%. It was hard to administer and it was costly. Just get rid of it.

And that was for people earning a modest about her money, being taken

out of prescriptions. And again, the question has been raised about

free bus pass is for rich people. Everybody in society is

experiencing problems. Look at the council cuts. The Scottish

Government has to work within a fixed budget. It cannot overspend.

The choices it has made about what is universal and concessionary, I

have fully supported. Three bus services for rich people are more

important? Let's start with rich people, I think that is an easy

example. But take the example of people means tested just above the

barrier and having to start paying for transport. That is more Pent --

that is more terrible than people not getting into college? Let me

finish with the value of the concessionary bus pass. People are

actually physically more active, psychologically better and socially

interacting and... Debt with me, and a preventative spend for

psychological issues for the elderly, you are getting your money

back. What Johanne Lomond was on about was that it was a good idea

but you have got a question of the fixed budget. Why is it more

important to give rich people free bus pass is than college places?

That is the choice you have made. Choices are always made and some

people will disagree. A choice has been made in Scotland that we will

not charge �9,000 for people to gauge the University... Gavin, you

would love to abolish some of these universal benefits. It is not about

abolition. It is about looking at which ones can be adapted and

modified and to look at the fact that we have got less money

available. And we are facing a demographic challenge. Look at

concessionary travel. Robert Black was previously quoted as saying

that you could say the �34 million a year if you did not give free bus

pass is to people above be age of 60 that were working. What about

free care for the elderly? think that is a more difficult

topic. Co what about tuition fees? What we have looked at consistently

is that at the moment we have got a lack of an evidence-based. We can

see the benefits and the cost. But the government needs to look at all

of these benefits broken down by category in the next 10 years. And

along with that, what is the analysis of the benefits of each of

them? Then we can compare the cost and benefit against other potential

policy choices, like a disadvantage with nursery places. And with that

in place we can make decisions. Both Labour and the SNP have been

screaming about Gavin Brown's welfare reforms. One benefit

modified was child benefit. Were you against that? I think it was

very important and the wrong decision. What about the universal

benefit? Let me just get back to this. This was a benefit with the

most uptake paid to the mother and it was a 98 % uptake. It was one of

these benefits in fact already paid for by the rest of us through taxes

and redistributed. I think it has earned its way. It was we

distributed through tax. -- redistributed. They are universal.

It was an excellent Emma Baird. It was a substantial up to eight --

benefit. You and Christine Grahams appear to be in a sort of

competition to fulfil your leader's forecast. Let me testy with another

one. -- test you. You have criticised that so called bedroom

tax and I know Gavin would take issue with that title. Is that

wrong and if it is why did your leader not appear to think it was

from? Ed Miliband has not opposed it. There has been a massive

campaign against it. You have got a massive campaign but you have not

opposed it? We are opposed to it. That is not what Ed Miliband has

said. I am disagreeing with him a. When we look at what is happening

in Westminster, in terms of our debate, I support universal child

benefit. But the fact of the matter is, the suffering that is coming

from welfare reforms is actually an attack on targeted benefits which

is a. I have made at the start. They are as important as universal

benefit. The bedroom tax is affecting poor people. I feel

strongly and we have got a massive campaign against the bedroom tax.

All right. And are you against all of the other welfare reforms Iain

Duncan Smith is introducing? Nobody is saying that we should not look

at that. I do not know anybody that is saying that. But we object to

the scale of the changes. The bedroom tax is completely... Which

bits of the welfare reforms would you support? We are against the

bedroom tax. We know that you are against it. We are completely

opposed to this... Was do you support? I think the problem with

the general reforms is that they are not fully thought out. They are

aiming at the most vulnerable. Disabled people will have to be

reviewed every three months. Considering that this is somebody

that has given thousands... understand it is controversial.

it is appalling. It is appalling and the fact that it is more than

50 % being tested, it they are found to be ineligible... It I know

that people will appeal. For what? That they can go to work. That is

at about 60 %. But it is still affecting thousands of people.

People that appeal over 60 % --, over 60 % are successful and they

are told to appeal by people assessing them which is appalling.

But that still means that 20 I % of the welfare bill in terms of

claimants is not justified. -- 25%. People that appeal are being

successful. It is appalling that more than 60 % are successful. I

have had constituents with benefits withdrawn on a paper exercise. They

have not presented medical exercise and been examined personally.

do you support this so called bedroom tax? It seems to have just

been handed to your opponents and it is like a stick to beat you over

the head with. They have opposed every single piece of welfare

reform put forward so far. Even with all the reforms put forward,

according to the Office for budget responsibility, it will be at �180

billion out of the 720 billion spent by the UK Government. Next it

will be 100 ACT and then next year, 186. -- 182 and Ben, 186. And now

the front pages, starting with the Scotsman... That is the boy that

died in the Boston bombing. And the biggest increase in house prices in

six years. I will be back tomorrow. Some more windy weather in the next

couple of days and some strong wind on Wednesday in the north and west.

Rain again and Northern Ireland and Scotland will start with the worst

conditions. That will stay until the afternoon. Some showers and

temperatures at around 12 degrees. Rain in parts of Scotland with a

strong southerly wind. Temperatures getting up to 11. It could be quite

heavy in Galloway. Also affecting Cumbria but further south, much

more dry. Sunshine, in Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and the Midlands.

Temperatures could get up to 20 degrees. A chance of showers but

many places missing them and staying dry. Cloud in south-west

England. In Wales, it is wet around Cardigan Bay and further inland,

dry and sunshine. Temperatures eight little bit above average

despite strong wind. Dropping back on Thursday, more typical

temperatures but a mixture of sunshine and showers. Showers on