17/04/2013 Newsnight Scotland


17/04/2013

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Tonight, on Newsnight Scotland. At her Anglican funeral in London,

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Margaret Thatcher's memorable address to the Church of Scotland

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is recalled. And all her paths are We'll speak to one minister who was

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at the General Assembly meeting that day, 25 years ago.

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And, congratulations Mr Swinney - new jobs announced, unemployment

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down, economic growth up, but why is it happening and can anyone take

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the credit? Good evening. It was a State

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funeral in all but name and a deeply Christian funeral in every

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sense. In the course of it the Bishop of

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London recalled the day, a quarter of a century ago, when Margaret

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Thatcher came to Edinburgh to explain to the Church of Scotland

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how the gospels shaped her political thinking.

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The Sermon on the Mound, as it was dubbed, was controversial then and

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We come to this cathedral today to remember before God Margaret Hilda

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Have I discovered joy within myself or am I still looking for it in

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externals, outside myself? Margaret Thatcher had a sense of this which

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she express in her address to the General Assembly of the Church of

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Scotland when she said, "I leave you with the earnest hope that may

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we all come nearer ." May we all come nearer to that other country

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whose ways are ways of gentleness I'm joined now by the Reverend

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Johnston Mackay, a former head of BBC Scotland Religious Programmes,

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who was at that General Assembly meeting 25 years ago. What was your

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memory of it? My memory of it is of the General Assembly which is a

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very courtious body being extremely courteous in listening to what Mrs

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Thatcher, as she then was, said. I suspect two-thirds of those who

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were present, a would have disagrade with her, b would have

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voted against her. They gave her a round of applause, didn't they at

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the end? Well...The mist making and why do we have these rituals,

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there has been myth making about that event, hasn't there? The

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picture presented now these furious members of the Church of Scotland

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subjected to harangue, it wasn't like that at all? That isn't my

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recollection of it. I was there as a BBC journalist. My recollection

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was that they listened to her in polite silence. At the end of her

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speech applauded her fairly roundly and off it went. It was... Well, it

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happened. The other thing I don't know whether it's myth making or

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not, is this idea now, I heard it repeated on the television the

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other night, at that time, because there was no Scottish Parliament

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somehow or other the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland

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was viewed as a surrogate Parliament. Surely most people in

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Scotland in the late 190's that would have been the furthest thing

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from their minds? That was constantly said, but never said by

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anybody, to my knowledge in the Church of Scotland. It was the sort

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of thing that lazy journalists like to -- liked to say... It mass

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become common currency? It was the sort of thing, because the Church

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of Scotland had a Church of Nation Committee which had a day in those

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days which debated heaven, earth and all creation, people got the

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impression this was somehow the nearest thing to a Scottish

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Parliament that was, I have to say, constantly repeated by politicians

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who came to the Assembly and said - you are the nearest thing we have

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to a Scottish Parliament. You're debates are better than those in

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Parliament, God help us for what Parliament must have been like!

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That is how the myth was created. Right. Look, putting your Reverend

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hat on for a minute, what did you make of today? This been discussing

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whether... It was a daeply Christian ceremony, wasn't it?

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thought it was a very Christian ceremony -- deeply. Am I supposed

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to say I didn't think that was a good idea. Of course I don't expect

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you to say that. I'm curious whether you thought the state

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nature of it was appropriate, the military aspect was appropriate?

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Whether everyone who I have heard today was quite impressed by the

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most strictly religious bits of it? I had grave reservations about the

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military and the state aspect of. It I thought there was bound to be

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a degree of state aspect there. I thought it impressive. I watched it

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right through. I was very touched by the way that everybody who took

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part in it was attempting to relate this, from my point of view, to the

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Christian gospel. In many ways it is the funeral of a public figure

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that I have ever seen which was overtly and clearly Christian, as

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indeed obviously Margaret... If you think they succeeded doing that,

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what about the meeting on the Mound her definition of Christianity?

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That is a different thing. I don't think her definition of

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Christianity was the definition of Christianity that the Bishop of

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London was telling us about, nor in the prayers... It was the Good Is a

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mariton thing? Her thing was that the thing about the good Samaritan

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was that he had money to give it away. That is not and never has

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been the purpose of the par bell. To go back to the service today. I

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thought, none the less, people were constantly attempting to address a

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public figure, in relation to the Christian gospel and the way they

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had tried to work out how their faith and their political will and

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their political policies matched up. Now, I may have lots of criticisms

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of Mrs Thatcher as to whether she succeeded in that, but that she

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attempted to do so is something I applaud. Right. The Bishop of

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London gets an A in diplomacy if not sermons by the way he managed

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to square it, she didn't quite mean that about society? I think the

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Bishop of London always gets an a for diplomacy. He was a rough

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contemporary of mine at university. He has always been a very, very

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good diplomat. All right. Thank you very much indeed.

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There was a pretty impressive set of economic figures for the

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Scottish Government to brag about today, and they did.

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Not unreasonable, given that unemployment here is down to under

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200,000 for the first time in three years; and economic growth is up,

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neither of which can be said for the rest of the UK.

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Why is that? We'll be discussing that in a few

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moments, but first Andrew Black looks at the figures and who should

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Finance Secretary, John Swinney, was out and about spreading his

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message about Scotland's economy. Visiting Scottish Power's new

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offices he says the latest figures show Scotland is out performing the

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UK as a a whole. What do they say? Scottish unemployment fell by

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11,000 between December and February to stand at 19 7,000. The

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number of people in jobs increased by 39,000 to reach just over 2.5

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million. The biggest recorded rise in 12 years. How do those figures

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chime with Britain as a whole? Well, the Scottish jobless rate stands at

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7.3% compared to the UK average of 7.9%. Meanwhile, new Scottish

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government data says Scotland's economy grew by 0.5% in 2013 while

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the UK economy as a whole shrunk by 0.3%. That demonstrates the value

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and the strength of the approach that we are taking to investment in

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the economy by concentrating on investment in capital

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infrastructure in Scotland, creating employment and we see that

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into the employment data, where we had a substantial rise in

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employment and substantial fall in unemployment. This is a day of

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positive news about the the Scottish economy. More work needs

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to be done, we are clearly moving in the right direction. The SNP's

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opponents say that is a bit rich. It is silly to claim credit for

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everything that goes well North of the border, but blame Westminster

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for anything that goes wrong. The figures today are good. The figures

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are now getting below 200,000 unemployed people is good. It's

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still 200,000 people who are without a job. That is why the

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combined efforts of both the Westminster government and the

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Scottish government is what we need to do. Looking beyond the raw

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statistics throws up more questions. The Scottish Parliament's

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Employment Committee warned of unemployed, people doing jobs for

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which they are over qualified like university graduates working in

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pubs. When the employers told us they thought it was better that

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people being ununderstood employed thand being over employed it keeps

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up their skills. Many people who suffered under employment said they

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lost Mott vaition and drop in their income. There are negative impacts

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on individuals being under employed. There are other things going on.

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Women don't seem to have benefited from the fall in unemployment. Very

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long-term unemployment increased again across all age groups. It is

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good news overall. The question is - why is it happening?

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So, what is going on? Joining me now is Emily Thomson

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from Glasgow Caledonian University, who's made a particular study of

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women in the Scottish jobs market, and Professor David Bell of the

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Scottish Economic Policy Forum at Is there anything here that enables

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us to say that there is a divergence between Scotland and the

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UK than when there was unemployment here? This is the strongest signal

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of some kind of diversance. Both the data do look relatively good in

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Scotland's favour, so to speak. We still are lagging well behind where

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we were in 200. If we look historically, things aren't that

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great. If we look compared with the rest of the UK, at the moment, at

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least, things don't look too bad. Will is an argument that what we

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have seen, particularly in the south of England is a bump up and a

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nosedive down as a result of the Olympics which didn't have an

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affect on the north of England and Scotland is that why comparatively

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the figures look... Yes. Looking at industry by industry, Scotland

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seems to be doing well in the production sector. Not as badly as

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England is doing in terms of construction. Also energy is

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performing very, very well in Scotland. Right. What did you make

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of these figures? It's early encouraging figures, we have to

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remember that the employment data is only a snapshot. It's quarterly.

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If we look at the last two years, for example, if we look at the

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impact that the recession had on womens' employment particularly we

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have a drop of 25,000 women in the labour market over the last two

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years compared with the rise of 34,000 male workers. Also, the

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overall unemployment and employment data doesn't tell us about the

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nature of these jobs, part-time, full-time, there is a rise of

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casualisation in the labour market. More for women. I think we have to,

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as David says, take a longer term There was a suggestion that people

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did not say aye am not in the labour market, but St I want a job.

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This is a difficult area because people can declare themselves to be

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inactive for different reasons and three months later they perhaps say

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aye am looking for a job. So they get transferred from the inactive

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to the unemployed category. It is a malleable border. What is the trend.

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Infectivity has been increasing. some of the difference could be

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what people are reporting. Under employment is something both of you

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are interested in. People who have fought themselves as doing a part-

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time job but would be preferably doing a full-time job. Or in a job

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and say they want more powers. What is the trend. Very definitely there

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is an excess supply of hours especially amongst the young. Those

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who are in employment say they would like to work longer hours.

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The principal reason is that their wages are relatively low. We had a

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period of decline in male wages because inflation, prices have

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increased faster than wages. So to keep up real incomes people have to

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work for longer. So went in a survey they're asked, they would

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say aye would like to work another 10 or 15 hours. This could be part

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of the solution to this suppose that mystery of what is happening

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in the economy. During this recession. That unemployment is not

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nearly as bad as everyone expected. But there has been a very big fall

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in labour productivity. Presumably it could be a product of keeping

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people on that doing fewer hours. They would like to be working more.

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But output per worker is going down. And this under employment is

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especially bad for women. The factors underpinning the gender

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profile off under employment is that women are more likely to be

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working in sectors affected live retell or social care. And also

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more likely to be working in jobs beneath their skills level often in

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order to balance their caring responsibilities. Is that something,

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is that every, is there every evidence that that has got worse

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since the social crash? Yes and some of the fall in unemployment

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has been offset by a rise in self- employment. There has been around a

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60% net rise in self-employment amongst women. That is more a

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survival strategy with people trying to scratch a living. And in

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terms of under employment it is often perceived that children other

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reason for women working part-time but those choices are made under

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conditions of constraint. Perhaps if there was more affordable

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childcare for example those choices might be different. This is

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something that you are looked to us will especially the thing about the

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self-employed. The point that you make in a forthcoming paper is that

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a lot of this self-employment might actually be self UN employment.

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is the defensive mechanism. We now have a more flexible labour market

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and people are willing to give it a go to set themselves up in business.

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But they find it difficult. Many self-employed people are working

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quite short hours because they just do not have the business to employ

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them, to employ themselves full- time. How unemployment affects

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individuals, the big thing you both seem to agree on is that the

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fundamental reason is a deficit of demand in the economy. There are

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more factors underpinning the situation for women. That has been

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an issue since before the recession. But it has got worse. Is it just

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and demand problem. I think it is multi-dimensional for women. It is

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a demand problem, a productivity issue but also the lack of

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affordable and available childcare. Is there more pressure on women,

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perhaps in a family where the woman was not working and the partner

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loses their job, is there more pressure on women to go out and get

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a job but then have the household responsibilities and end up taking

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something? The evidence shows that women are more likely to be the

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money manager in the household. So there could be an element of that.

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What do we do about all this? Scott when doing relatively well but

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still overall it is pretty much Vlada lining. You also think these

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job creation schemes are a waste of time. So what do we do? Just hope

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for the best? It is a difficult situation. The euro-zone market is

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going to be difficult. And consumer demand is going to remain

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relatively quiet for quite some time yet.

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Now a quick look at tomorrow's front pages. All leading up with

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the funeral of Margaret Thatcher. That is probably on the steps of St

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Paul's. The Guardian, the court from the Bishop of London. That -

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the quote. And a picture of Carol Thatcher in the Daily Mail. That is

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all for tonight. I will be back Good evening. A real buffeting from

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the wind through the night and some heavy rain in western areas.

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Potentially some atrocious conditions on the roads. The

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showers beginning across western areas but migrating east. And a

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gusty wind blowing them on. And it will be much fresher during the day

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tomorrow. A very wet start for some first thing in the morning. More

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rain coming in in the afternoon to Northern Ireland courtesy of

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another weather front. So wet and windy through the night. The

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outlook as we head through Thursday and Friday, in the northern half of

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the UK we have that showery rain. Brighter on Friday. But still does

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