18/04/2013 Newsnight Scotland

We will be launching the direct Tonight on Newsnight Scotland,

Labour has published proposals to give more powers to Holyrood,

including complete control of income tax. If they are taken up,

is it bold ideas, or just Labour hanging on to the coat tails of the

SNP? Also tonight, some of Oxford's finest apply their brains to the

independence debate. And Holyrood says farewell, and a few other

things, to Baroness Thatcher. A commission chaired by the Scottish

Labour leader, Johann Lamont, has come up with proposals including

giving complete control of income tax to the Scottish Parliament.

There are already reports of dark mutterings from some Scottish

Labour in peace. Every day, the Scottish Parliament but decisions

about the running of a schools, hospitals and police. But when it

comes to financial powers, Holyrood has got much less power. Since the

SNP came to power, pro- union parties have been trying to keep

devolution an attractive alternative to independence, and

there has been no shortage of suggestions. In 2009, a commission

delivered a report which will see new financial powers coming to

Holyrood. Last year, a report said Scotland could raise most of its

cash by 2020. That was followed by the Liberal Democrats' home rule

commission, dreaming of a federal Scotland. Today, Scottish Labour

outlined its thinking of the future of devolution. With a little over

500 days to go until the referendum, Labour reckons it needs to offer

voters something new and positive to counteract the argument for

winning independence. In its proposals, they this as devolving

income tax would provide a stable income tax would provide a stable

source of cash. They say there is a strong case for getting control of

air passenger duty, and they back powers on vehicle excise duty

moving from Westminster to Holyrood. And what about those powers which

would remain? Devolving VAT is banned under European law. Labour

says it is possible to devolve North Sea oil tax, but it says that

risks and the unpredictable fiscal cliff. The party warns devolution

of corporation tax could spark a race to the bottom, with businesses

continually relocating to cut their bills. Scottish Labour leader

Johann Lamont says her priority is Johann Lamont says her priority is

making Scotland have a better position within the UK. We have a

huge amount of devolved responsibility, but very little

responsibility for raising money. I think there is a bit of a

separation between the good things you can do with the money, along

with confronting the challenge of convincing people about how to make

the right contribution to the services. I think the report falls

way short of what Scotland really needs. We need to create jobs and

get the economy growing, and yet this report recommends that the

power of a corporation tax and North Sea revenues should stay in

London. The proposals will be discussed at the Scottish Labour

conference this weekend. The question is, will the party sign

up? I am joined by Scottish Labour's the B-Team leader, Anas

Sarwar. What is the point of all of this? -- Deputy Leader. The last

lot of devolved taxes are not even in force yet, and you are proposing

devolving even more? The first thing to say is that last year,

Johann Lamont set out the launching of the devolution commission, to

look at powers not just from Westminster to Holyrood, but also

in local government, not just powers for the sake of it, powers

about creating a stronger Scottish Parliament. You say that, but the

last lot, the Calman commission proposals, and not even in force

yet, and yet you're proposing more power was. We're having a genuine

dialogue about the best interests of Scotland. -- powers. But surely

you are just hanging on to the coat tails of the S&P? Absolutely not.

Whatever we do on devolution, it will never pass the S&P test,

because they do not believe in what we believe in. -- SNP. We are in

favour of Scotland remaining part of the United Kingdom, and we want

a devolution settlement which works best for the people of Scotland. We

are looking at a range of proposals. My challenge would be to the SNP,

why not engage fully in a process about making devolution work

instead of putting one of your eggs in one basket? This is supposed to

be not just tokenism, but which nos for purpose, as you said, in your

own jargon. I struggled to find any rationale in your document for

devolving all income tax to Scotland, so perhaps you could tell

us what it is? There is a strong case around the accountability of

the parliament, and its ability to raise more cash than it spends.

the purpose was supposed to be doing better for the people of

Scotland... As I was going to say, there is a strong case around

accountability, and making the practicalities of that work. We

have to test it robustly across all sectors of Scotland. We will look

at how we can use those tax powers, if we do implement it, in the

interests of Scotland. But how is devolving all income tax powers to

Scotland going to make life better for people? It is the SNP which

wants to devolve all power. We do not believe that. But you saying

your document you only want devolution if it helps - more

devolution - if it helps the needs of people? What needs would be met

by this? Absolutely, that's what we are saying. What are these needs?

One of those issues is income tax, can we look to devolve it so that

it works to give accountability to the Parliament? I am not asking you

that, I am you're asking you what the argument is for doing it. -- I

am asking you. Your criterion is that you only want more powers if

it helps what people need, so how does devolving all income tax to

Scotland to that? We're saying that we think there was a strong case,

in terms of accountability, accountability for the parliament,

and if it works in terms of making sure that it does not increase the

administrative burden for individuals, and if it strengthens

our role within the United Kingdom, then we will look to devolve that

power. That gives us the argument about how we can create a fair

redistribution of tax within Scotland. I have not heard you say

anything at all about how you can create a fairer, more

redistributive system in Scotland. You say in your document that it

could be more progressive, but that fairness in the tax system to get

us through an economic crisis. You're saying you want to devolve

powers of income tax as you can reintroduce the 50p tax rate?

not proposing -- there are no conclusions set a new report.

say it could lead to a more progressive tax system. What you

think that is? If we choose to devolve to the Scottish Parliament,

that Parliament would have the choice. Four what do you think. --

what you think he's mean? I am not pretending to have all the answers.

That is the difference between us and the SNP. You saying you run

document it could lead to a more progressive tax system -- you say

in your own document. A Scotland did choose to devolve income tax to

the -- if Scotland did choose to devolve income tax, we could make

it more progressive. This is about making sure a package of powers

work in Scotland. I am sorry. We are out of time.

It is not just the political parties who are furiously

researching and publishing on Scotland's politics and economics

these days. Three senior academics at Oxford University have just

published Scotland's Choices. One of the offers joins me now. --

authors. Why have you done this? Does this mean that all these

arguments about the referendum or becoming respectable academic

subject for study across the UK? And we have done this book because

the people of Scotland will shortly have to choose. The issues they

will have to choose about are not simple. I think that is clear from

the discussion will stock everybody -- from the discussion we have just

heard. We're trying to present what we think are the issues and our

best guesses as to what will happen if you bought a certain way. It is

a huge brick. We don't have time to go through all of them. Let's go

through one issue which is pertinent to what we have just

heard from Anas Sarwar. If you devolved income tax to Scotland,

don't you think that would make the Barnett formula, which Labour in

the document say they want to keep, pretty untenable? Yes, we think

that any possible reforms including at the Scotland Act, which will

come into force if the vote is no, which is the same as the Calman

report which was discussed in your previous item. For my money, it

doesn't make a great deal of difference whether you devolve the

last 10p in income tax, as the Calman Commission suggests, or you

devolve the whole of income tax as the Labour Party are now proposing.

The vital thing is that the Scottish Parliament should take the

decision on the last pound. Do you raise a �1 more in tax, which means

you can spend �1 more in services? Or do you cut tax by �1 in which

case you have to find that money from somewhere else or through

cuts? To the coalition government set up the Office for Budget

Responsibility, something which they might have recently regretted.

People in Scotland abstained we want the information to allow us to

make up our minds. Is there a case for some sort of department just

for Scotland? The Office for Budget Responsibility does produce

statistics for Scotland. There is also a series of journals. The

daytime is out there. Our book tries to enter but it. Thank you

very much. I am sure our viewers will be off to check the documents.

Thank you. Finally, in the week of Baroness

Thatcher's funeral, the last words go to the parliamentarians of

Edinburgh. After much disagreement about whether or when Holyrood

should debate the controversial legacy, they got around to it this

afternoon. The Green MSP Patrick Harvie opened with a critique of

Thatcherism. This model continues to dominate UK

political parties far too much. There is a danger that we allow it

to demonstrate -- to dominate the political landscape in Scotland is

also evident. David Cameron is able to keep a straight face as we are

all Thatcherites now. Two caught the lady, no, no, no. We have

chartered a different course on social policies. -- to quote the

lady. Our policies protect rather than demonise the most vulnerable

in society. In the 1980s, the Conservative Party pursued policies

which broke harps and destroy people's dignity. As politicians,

we must resolve that that should never be allowed to happen again.

If we deal in hard facts instead of meths, Scotland's economy grew on

average of 2.5% every year throughout the 1980s. The First

Minister has grudgingly recognised these achievements, saying that he

didn't mind the economic side of her policies. With living standards

increasing and employment increasing, why would he? It was

wrong because she used the money saved to cut taxes. She used the

money to buy votes, rather than prepare for the future.

Newtongrange, Corbridge and elsewhere in mining communities,

her death has not been met by the police deference and a deal of

hypocrisy. It was celebrations -- Gorebridge. Margaret Thatcher

expected people to go out there, to do her best unpaid tax for public

services. That is how a country works. It always amazes me that

there are 40 many people in Scotland who want to talk about how

we read -- how we redistribute wealth, without realising it might

be useful to create some wealth at the same time. My objection to

Margaret Thatcher is that she divided society. Between those who

have and those who have not. The Labour Party has done very little

to correct that. Mrs Thatcher realised that Britain had to take

decisions. That is why they were divided. Because there was no

consensus as to how we go forward. Somebody had to act. She acted. I

believe that the country is the believe that the country is the

better for it. Now a quick look at tomorrow's