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television! Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, it | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
has changed the face of the American energy market and seen prices | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
plummet. It is fracking and today the government here was told to get | :00:23. | :00:30. | |
on with it. We hear from an expert who says do not do it. Also, we have | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
merged the police and fire service so is it time to look at the number | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
of health boards and local councils and think of merging them as well? | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
Fracking, simply put it is a technique to recover gas and oil | :00:42. | :00:47. | |
from shale rock and it is being recovered in such quantities in some | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
parts of the world that it has boosted worldwide gas supplies and | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
in America dramatically cut costs to industry and households. It is also | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
provided the Americans with security of supply for decades at least. But | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
it is controversial. She did have a future here? | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
Today, the Scottish government to their major step forward in its | :01:09. | :01:15. | |
drive to make the country a renewable energy leader. At an | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
industry event in Aberdeen, Fergus Ewing announced the approval of | :01:19. | :01:26. | |
plans for the world's largest commercial wave farm. We have | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
tremendous potential in Scotland and we have moved beyond the thinking | :01:29. | :01:35. | |
stage. We have devices which are grid connected and are starting to | :01:35. | :01:44. | |
demonstrate the capacity to generate electricity. We are on the verge of | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
making great progress on both wave and tidal power and we want to | :01:48. | :01:58. | |
:01:58. | :01:59. | ||
stroll -- shows strong leadership. The 40 megawatts development of the | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
north-west coast of Lewis could power nearly 30,000 homes. Could | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
there be another more controversial form of revolutionary energy | :02:08. | :02:15. | |
production on the UK Horizon? Hydraulic fracturing, known as | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
fracking, is a technique to recover gas and oil from shale rock. The | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
process involves drilling down before a high-pressure water mixture | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
is directed at the Rock to release the gas inside. Its use in the US | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
has seen the massed -- domestic gas prices cut in half and could offer | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
energy security to North America for the next 100 years. The Institute of | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
Directors says the UK government which has approved fracking should | :02:42. | :02:48. | |
get on with its own revolution. " out today, the Institute of | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
Directors says shale gas has the potential to meet a third of the UK | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
gas demand. It could attract investment of up to �3.7 billion | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
supporting 74,000 jobs. The report says the need to import gas from | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
other countries could be reduced. It also says shale gas food generate | :03:10. | :03:20. | |
significant tax revenues. -- shale gas could generate. This | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
unique landscape is home to several rare species of plants and animals. | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
It also serves as a remnant of a once proud industry that years ago | :03:28. | :03:34. | |
was the envy of the world. These giant man-made formations are a | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
by-product of a pioneering process developed in the mid-1800s to | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
extract oil from shale. It resulted in Scotland becoming one of the | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
world's biggest oil producing nations. So what is the potential of | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
Scotland to be at the forefront of this new generation of shale energy | :03:53. | :03:59. | |
technology? Companies are keen to do it because they can make a lot of | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
money from it. The communities where they are proposing that are up in | :04:03. | :04:10. | |
arms. There has been 1500 objections in Falkirk for objections there. | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
They have an uphill struggle. I do not honestly think that the Scottish | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
government is very keen. It has cooled its enthusiasm towards the | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
technology and it is highly polluting in terms of the climate. | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
If you want to damage the climate, you fracking for gas. I thought we | :04:28. | :04:34. | |
were meant to be protecting the climate. He says questions also have | :04:34. | :04:41. | |
to be asked about the Institute of Directors report. You must look at | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
who funded this report. It was quadruple who wanted to frag in | :04:45. | :04:55. | |
:04:55. | :05:00. | ||
England. -- it was Cuadrilla Resources. What caused the crack?It | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
was the earthquake. There are still concerns about fracking which was | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
temporarily halted in the UK when it was blamed for earthquakes in | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
Lancashire. There are concerns that gas can find its way into drinking | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
water. A government report has concluded that fracking is safe if | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
monitored. Right now the Scottish government looks focused on | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
renewable energy. It announced that Scotland will be the first part of | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
the UK to have a dedicated fund for the wave energy sector. When it | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
comes to fracking, ministers say they recognise the need for a | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
diverse energy mix, but they point that there is no plan in place shale | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
gas operations in Scotland. I am joined by Corin Taylor who | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
ruled the Institute of rectors report which was published to date | :05:49. | :05:58. | |
and from Edinburgh by Doctor Dr Mariann Lloyd Smith who is senior | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
adviser to the Australian National Toxics Network and has served on the | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
UN Expert Group on Climate Change and Chemicals tale -- clamour change | :06:04. | :06:14. | |
:06:14. | :06:19. | ||
and chemicals. Explain your position. It is shale gas which | :06:19. | :06:27. | |
primarily we would need fracturing to get out. That has been produced | :06:28. | :06:37. | |
at commercial rates - cobalt gas - but the bigger point is a threefold | :06:37. | :06:44. | |
benefit - jobs, tax revenues and reducing imports. It is not about | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
replacing renewables. It is about reducing the imported energy that we | :06:48. | :06:55. | |
need. You would except that the cobalt methane extraction, from | :06:55. | :07:03. | |
pollution point of view, as risky if not more risky than fracking? | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
that, a company would need to get permission from four different | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
government agencies - the Health and Safety Executive, the Scottish | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
environmental protection agency, the Department of energy and a and the | :07:17. | :07:24. | |
local mineral planning authority. you think the problems we have seen | :07:24. | :07:33. | |
in the Blackpool area and more so in the United States are because this | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
technology is not implemented properly or do you think it is | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
inherently wrong to use it at all? It is an inherently dangerous | :07:42. | :07:52. | |
:07:52. | :08:06. | ||
technology and it is not just us saying that. It is the United | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
Nations environment programme who led last year put out a global alert | :08:08. | :08:18. | |
about the technology and they said People are talking about a long- | :08:18. | :08:28. | |
:08:28. | :08:29. | ||
term productivity increase. It will not not happen. We need to look at | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
the long-term cost. If we looked at the short-term problems of air | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
pollution, water contamination, human health impact, which we are | :08:39. | :08:45. | |
seeing in Australia, and also the long-term liability of the wells | :08:45. | :08:54. | |
that will leak in the future, any cost-benefit would say, the | :08:54. | :09:00. | |
analysis, that this is not the industry we want. People I have | :09:00. | :09:07. | |
spoken to him in UK, it is not the industry they want. Corin Taylor, | :09:07. | :09:17. | |
:09:17. | :09:19. | ||
there are projects in Scotland, exploratory drilling. They have | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
been complaints about leaks from that. I have been told by the | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
Environment Protection Agency that they found there were no methane | :09:28. | :09:37. | |
leaks. Why are you keen on this, the Institute of directors'? The if | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
you look at the development of the North Sea, that generated more than | :09:44. | :09:52. | |
enough oil to meet needs for 25 years. Gas needs for 30 years. | :09:52. | :09:59. | |
is the potential? The figures you produced, it looked like five years, | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
because the extraction rate is so low, five years you could get from | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
the estimates of what is in the UK. If you look at the numbers are | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
estimated by different companies and to apply a low recovery factor | :10:13. | :10:19. | |
of around 10%, we would have enough gas to meet one third of needs for | :10:19. | :10:25. | |
some years. We suggest that shale gas at peak production could meet | :10:25. | :10:35. | |
:10:35. | :10:37. | ||
one third of gas needs. If you are so keen on this, why did you not | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
just produce the report, why did you accept sponsorship from a | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
company that is the main company that was involved in what happened | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
in England and has his reputation from that? The report and its | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
conclusions are ours alone. We make recommendations to overcome | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
barriers to shale gas production. We do not let the industry off the | :11:01. | :11:07. | |
hook. We make recommendations. We make clear that the industry must | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
be 100% transparent in terms of chemicals, on water use. Dr Mariann | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
Lloyd Smith, the United Nations committee might be against this, | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
but not many national governments. The French said they were not keen. | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
Is there any other government that said they will not have it? I think | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
governments are tempted by the dollars and the promise of jobs, | :11:33. | :11:41. | |
which do not really materialise. The reality in my country, they are | :11:41. | :11:49. | |
beginning to understand the problem. You say jobs will not materialise. | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
I do not think anyone could you give the effect on the US energy | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
market and say that they have not received a boost from shale gas. | :11:59. | :12:06. | |
They are considering turning Ports on the East Coast built to import | :12:06. | :12:12. | |
it, to export it. It is not a good argument to say it does not have a | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
beneficial economic effect. I am not saying that. I am saying it | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
does not benefit local communities. Most workers are technical | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
expertise from outside. And if you talk to consumers in America, it | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
has not benefited them. It is not cheaper to heat your house with gas | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
in America than it was five years ago. If somebody is getting benefit, | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
it is not the average person. Who is getting the benefit, who is | :12:41. | :12:48. | |
paying the cost? We will have to leave it there. | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
Police Scotland was brought into being last month as a result of a | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
merger of eight authorities. The efficiencies of scale and reducing | :12:58. | :13:06. | |
duplication was cited as reasons. Now the President of Association of | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
Scottish Police Superintendents says the same reasoning should be | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
applied to other services, such as the NHS and local authorities. He | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
said the police service could not bear the brunt of these costs alone. | :13:18. | :13:26. | |
We supported the reform of the police forces. Part of the debate | :13:26. | :13:33. | |
is we recall some time ago, eight police forces, we accepted they | :13:33. | :13:39. | |
were too many. Perhaps we have to look at other public sector | :13:39. | :13:46. | |
organisations, local authorities, the health boards, and others. | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
joined by Pat Watters, who was the President of Convention of Scottish | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
Local Authorities, and is now the chairman of the Scottish Fire and | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
Rescue Service, formed as a result as -- of a merger. What do you make | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
of the suggestion that you should merge local-authority is and health | :14:04. | :14:14. | |
:14:14. | :14:15. | ||
boards? It is presumptuous to be saying six weeks into the operation | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
that we are an example of how you should change all of the public | :14:19. | :14:29. | |
:14:29. | :14:31. | ||
sector. It is too early to make an evaluation. Especially at that Rank, | :14:31. | :14:41. | |
:14:41. | :14:44. | ||
chief superintendent, I do not see the evidence. Leave aside merging, | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
this issue has been talked about for years. For example, local | :14:49. | :14:59. | |
authorities. Why have different education departments, even if you | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
kept the political separation, you could merge them and create | :15:02. | :15:10. | |
efficiency. It does not seem to happen. You are wrong in the sense | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
that there has been recognition for some time and that is why we spend | :15:15. | :15:21. | |
time on Community Planning. There is a recognition that it cannot be | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
one part of the public sector. Community Planning bring services | :15:26. | :15:33. | |
in an area together to look at how they deliver better for communities. | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
We talk about two different things, Community Planning might be great | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
for the idea that is always talked about, for example when there is a | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
tragic case of a child dying. It is talked about the agency is working | :15:47. | :15:54. | |
better together. But for saving money, surely it is basic things, | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
if the local authorities and health was got together, they could do a | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
joint contract with a company such as Ford for trucks and save | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
millions of pounds. It does not happen. That is not the case. There | :16:09. | :16:16. | |
is a buying consortium within the health board and local government. | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
We can work better together, but that is what Community Planning is | :16:21. | :16:30. | |
doing. We can improve outcomes for local communities. We do not need | :16:30. | :16:36. | |
an expensive reconstruction. The last time we did local government, | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
400 million, the estimated cost. It cost 900 million. If you what to do | :16:41. | :16:49. | |
it today, it would cost billions at a time when resources are stretched. | :16:49. | :16:55. | |
I do not think people would welcome spending that money. Are you saying | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
there is no benefit to what happened to the fire service? | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
of course there is a benefit. There is a difference between what is | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
proposed by Association of Scottish Police Superintendents and what | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
happened with the fire service. can look at the front pages. They | :17:15. | :17:21. | |
have the horrific picture on the front page. The soldier had to | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
front page. The soldier had to front page. The soldier had to | :17:25. | :17:35. | |
:17:35. | :17:51. | ||
death. That is all we have time for. Across England and Wales, starting | :17:51. | :17:57. | |
the day dry. Cloudy conditions in the north. Even if you leave the | :17:57. | :18:03. | |
house, with sunshine ahead, it will not stay that way. The showers in | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
the afternoon will not be as heavy as they have been in the morning. | :18:08. | :18:15. | |
With winds touching gale-force in the east, and strong and gusty | :18:15. | :18:23. | |
winds in the North of England making it cold. This is where heavy | :18:23. | :18:29. | |
showers and thunder and hail mixed in. Temperatures dropping in those | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
heavy showers. In those showers, they could be snow mixed in on the | :18:34. | :18:40. | |
tops of the hills. Particularly in Snowdonia where they could be a | :18:40. | :18:48. | |
covering of snow at the end of the day. On Friday, cold. Some parts | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
favoured for something brighter and breezy later in the day. In the | :18:52. | :18:58. |